Lost And Sound
Lost and Sound is a podcast exploring the most exciting and innovative voices in underground, electronic, and leftfield music worldwide. Hosted by Berlin-based writer Paul Hanford, each episode features in-depth, free-flowing conversations with artists, producers, and pioneers who push music forward in their own unique way.
From legendary innovators to emerging mavericks, Paul dives into the intersection of music, creativity, and life, uncovering deep insights into the artistic process. His relaxed, open-ended approach allows guests to express themselves fully, offering an intimate perspective on the minds shaping contemporary sound.
Originally launched with support from Arts Council England, Lost and Sound has featured groundbreaking artists including Suzanne Ciani, Peaches, Laurent Garnier, Chilly Gonzales, Sleaford Mods, Nightmares On Wax, Graham Coxon, Saint Etienne, Ellen Allien, A Guy Called Gerald, Jean Michel Jarre, Liars, Blixa Bargeld, Hania Rani, Roman Flügel, Róisín Murphy, Jim O’Rourke, Yann Tiersen, Thurston Moore, Lias Saoudi (Fat White Family), Caterina Barbieri, Rudy Tambala (A.R. Kane), more eaze, Tesfa Williams, Slikback, NikNak, and Alva Noto.
Paul Hanford is a writer, broadcaster, and storyteller whose work bridges music, culture, and human connection. His debut book, Coming to Berlin, is available in all good bookshops.
Lost and Sound is for listeners passionate about electronic music, experimental sound, and the people redefining what music can be.
Lost And Sound
NikNak
Turntablist, composer, and sonic explorer NikNak joins Lost and Sound to talk about pushing DJing into new dimensions. From layering ambient textures to weaving intricate narratives through sound, she’s redefining what turntables can do.
We get into her creative process, the influence of video game soundtracks, and how she’s carved a space in the UK’s experimental music scene. She shares stories from performing with Grandmaster Flash, winning the Oram Award in 2020, and navigating the realities of being an artist today—where financial pressures, privilege, and technology all shape the landscape.
This was a really fun chat and NikNak makes some great points about sound as storytelling, the tension between artistry and survival, and why embracing play and experimentation is more important than ever.
If you’re enjoying the show, please consider subscribing and leaving a rating or review on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you listen. It really helps to spread the word and support Lost and Sound.
NikNak on Bandcamp.
Follow me on Instagram at Paulhanford
Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica
My BBC World Service radio documentary “The man who smuggled punk rock across the Berlin Wall” is available now on BBC Sounds. Click here to listen.
My book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culturet Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
turntablism as jackson pollock-esque expressionistic art. I don't know, I might be talking in the clouds, but that's one thing that comes to my mind when I listen to the music of the brilliant knickknack, who is my guest on the show today. Welcome to lost and sound, the podcast that goes behind the scenes with innovative and pioneering music people. But first I want to give a shout to my sponsor, audio technica, a global but family-run company that make the headphones that I'm wearing right now and whose mic you hear me do every interview through. They make studio quality yet affordable products because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Okay, so I am talking to you. I'm in a park in berlin. It's really, really cold, so I'm really anxious to get the show on the go. This is what happened. Well, you, in a minute you're going to hear what happened when I met knickknack. Thank you, hello and welcome to episode 158 of Lost in Sound.
Speaker 1:I'm Paul Hamford, I'm your host, I'm an author, a broadcaster and a lecturer, and Lost in Sound is the weekly podcast where I chat with artists who work outside the box, from global icons to trailblazing outsiders and emerging innovators. We talk music, creativity and perhaps that most daunting part of being an artist the praxis of life. Previous guests on the show have included Peaches, suzanne Chiani, jim O'Rourke, cosy Funny Tootie and Mickey Blanco, and, as always, it's really nice to hear your thoughts on last week's episode with slick back, and one of the things that I keep thinking about over the last week is what freddy was saying about how he sometimes sneakily gets up at night and retweaks elements of music he's already put up on bandcamp by quietly replacing the sound files with slightly altered, newer versions of the tracks. I thought that was really inspiring and really funny as well, and I think that's definitely a tip, and I was wondering who else does that. If you're a music artist and you do that, let us know.
Speaker 1:Anyway, today I'm joined by Nick Knack, the award-winning turntablist, composer and sound artist, whose work seamlessly blends experimental turntablism, ambient textures and deep, immersive storytelling. Based in Leeds, she's become a real force in the UK's avant-garde, challenging conventions of what DJing and sound design can be, and I think she uses decks in such an expressive way and we do talk about with wanting to give too much of a conversation away about the hip-hop roots of turntablism. Nick knack shares a good anecdote about supporting grandmaster flash as well as her family connection to sound system culture. But nick knack's approach is as much about sculpting space as it is about mixing records, making music that is abstractly expressive over a series of really interesting albums now over the last five or six years. It was a really fun conversation. Um, before we get going, please give the show a rating and a review on spotify, amazon, apple or wherever you like to listen to this show on. Give it a subscribe if you're a new listener and you like the sound and of what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:And yes, back to the conversation. So we had this conversation on Friday, the 31st of January and we talk about her influences, the involving role of the turntable in experimental music, how she crafts narratives through sound and so much more. And we start off just to give you a little flavour, because we go straight in talking about the Oram Awards, the awards ceremony named after the electronic music pioneer, daphne Oram, which Nick Nack has been a winner of. So this is it. This is what happened when me, paul Hanford, met Nick Nack for Lost in Sound. Okay, well, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, you've got so many different kinds of like acclaim in the last few years and I think one of the most interesting ones perhaps, at least when I was thinking about it was like the Aurum Awards yeah, in 2020. I mean, how did that feel for you and how does it tie into your approach to win that award?
Speaker 2:That was actually kind of crazy because, um, like, I'd heard about the Aurums and, um, like a few people had nominated me, uh, a couple years prior, and so it was on my radar for a little bit and I just kind of thought, well, I, you know I'm at the time, production was more I don't want to say like on the back burner, because that feels weird to say, but just like, djing was like the forefront for me at that point and I'd been thinking about going back into production and you know, I guess Bashy was kind of cooking at that point and I just thought, well, I'm not, I'm not quite as weird as the others, I don't know. Like, my, my approach to DJing is is what it is, I guess, um, and I didn't feel quite like, oh yeah, this is me, but I appreciate that other people kind of saw it and was like, oh, nick, absolutely. So, you know, that was, that was a nice kind of confidence boost. And then then, you know, if the year of 2020 and kind of obviously that being a strange year for everybody, and just kind of the silent panic attacks you're having like, oh, the career is over, I need to go work in an office.
Speaker 2:And all of that was all just like, oh, do I need to, kind of I need to go back to compartmentalize in my creative side and all of that stuff and to go back to compartmentalizing my creative side and all of that stuff and you know, pretend to know about mortgages, like I just was like, oh no, uh, uh, but the idea was still there with regards to bashy, and just like, well, I still want to put this out, I still want to do this and I guess, yeah, like a few friends had won it previously, um, like chains, uh, um like chains, uh, and the noando abizi and people that have kind of been in a similar circle with me. So I kind of asked them for some advice as well and they were like, yeah, you should. It was like, okay, I don't know, um. And then so, yeah, when it actually was announced, uh, or you know when, when they told me that I, I was one of the winners, I was genuinely shocked.
Speaker 2:I'd never kind of considered, and at this point Bashy was out as well, so that was a whole new thing of. You've known me for DJing and now I've made this Soundscape album, which is totally not what you were expecting. A lot of my production previously was mainly in hip-hop.
Speaker 2:it was like to go from that to this was a new kind of form of just putting ideas out there, essentially. But then, yeah, you know, people were liking it and it's like cool, thank you for listening, I thank you. And then, you know, for the orams to be like, yeah, you're, you're one of the winners. It's like what? Yeah? And then on top of that to kind of because I asked as well, like am I? Because, looking back through the people that have won it in the past, I was like am I the only turntable, am I the only like black turntablist that's won this? And they were like, yeah, I'm like oh, oh, oh, I'd like I've made history. Oh, that's mad. And then like, obviously, I tell my mom and she's gassed um, so it's just been very like.
Speaker 2:That was a very like key moment of like wow, okay, and very affirming as well, because there's been as well like in the past, a lot of like imposter syndrome type of stuff, and it's like people quick to troll on the internet, like, oh, that's not how you do a baby scratch, and it's like well, this is how I do it, you know. So there was a lot of that also kind of at the same time, and I'd also kind of just well, in a few years before that started to shed the imposter syndrome a bit. So I was still kind of getting used to sitting in the idea of me being like yes, I am a turntablist, like ha, ha, ha, I am.
Speaker 2:I can say that, yeah, yeah, yeah, like trying to like shake that off and be like no, I I am, I'm sitting in this properly and it's a comfortable chair and I don't know where I'm going with this analogy.
Speaker 1:But you know, I'm saying so I love a good analogy.
Speaker 2:Please carry on the power of ADHD. Uh. So, you know, I just you know I'm getting used to this chair and so, yeah, it was a. That was a very beautiful moment. And also, you know, to be in this kind of amazing cohort with other like incredible uh, producers, musicians, um, just people like in, like bringing tech into their music in a very unique way to them, like they're not trying to copy there may be some influences, but they're not trying to copy anyone else, that was also really like empowering for me as well. So, yeah, it was, yeah, it's mad. I was like, yeah, I am an award-winning turntablist. Yeah, man, yeah, like month's guest, let's go brilliant.
Speaker 1:I mean, I love that sense of owning it. Do you feel like? Do you feel like now you're sort of talking about imposter syndrome and just saying, then, yes, I am an award-winning, uh, turntablist. Do you feel like, um, is that you every day? Or do you have to do work sometimes to go?
Speaker 2:oh, yes, yes, no, I am I guess when, when, when people are like you know, tell me about yourself, I'm like, oh god, right. So okay, how long have we got, because I do a lot of things, uh, so it's like I'll try, because I was even on a call earlier to and somebody asked me that and I was like, okay, best way to truncate it is I'm a music creative yeah, and within that umbrella, is award-winning turntablist producer.
Speaker 2:So it it's, it's, it's, it's a part of me and it has been recognized and I'm very grateful for it. Like I will never not be grateful for it because, oh my god, so you know it's a part of me and, yeah, the imposter syndrome of it is gone now, thankfully, and yeah, it's nice to kind of just be like well, yeah, I do a variety of different things, but they all are in within sound, within music, in in some respect. You know, a lot of the music that I make will involve the turntables in one way or another. Um, a lot of the DJ sets that I do, depending on you know what, what equipment is available and all that sort of stuff. If it's possible for me to use turntables, I absolutely will. That's not always the case because, like venues or promoters, they don't like always have the kit ready to hand. It's more CDJs now.
Speaker 2:Fair enough If it's, you know it. So the turntable part can fluctuate, but for the most part, yeah, it's like that's the first sentence I'll say.
Speaker 1:It's like that's the first sentence I'll say yeah, I think I feel like so often people that do creative pursuits, they're so sort of like weirdly defined what you do and you often end up as what you're doing, as a series of sort of like life experiences, as as rather than like, necessarily like a straightforward, linear application.
Speaker 1:Like you're heading towards being a doctor and I'm I don't want to dismiss that, I'm sure like a lot of people that do become doctors go on like very uh left and right life journeys to get there sometimes. But um, I feel at the same time I always I feel like a lot of artists feel that they have to sort of justify that they're artists in in a lot of situations. Because maybe they have to sort of justify that they're artists in a lot of situations because maybe it doesn't make financial sense to in certain regards, I mean, how do you feel about that? Like you know that sort of uh, that sort of feeling of like, and I also think there's like sometimes like a class idea about being an artist. Like I don't think people always feel comfortable, for whatever different reasons, claiming that as a, as a term yeah, uh, that's a.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting bunch of questions. I think it's harder and easier now to confidently say that you're doing some, uh, doing something creatively, not necessarily like, oh, I'm a music artist or whatever it's it's. It's an interesting kind of place to be in now and the class thing definitely, definitely plays into it for sure. Um, like, I've seen people kind of uh, how can I put?
Speaker 1:I can always do a little bit of editing, if okay, okay, okay because I was like.
Speaker 2:I mean, first of all I should have asked like can I swear, because I don't know, of course you can.
Speaker 2:You can say whatever the fuck you want um okay, sick okay cool, yeah, I was like I don't know if I don't know if I can swear or not, okay, um, so, so I mean, so I've seen people kind of rip on like certain more I guess privileged people that have just like come out of nowhere, I guess, and I've just shot into the limelight whatever that looks like and is like heavily praised, heavily this, that and the other.
Speaker 2:But then when you actually like listen to their music or you kind of take in what's being said, or I mean, or you know you look at their art or whatever, or you kind of take in what's being said, or I mean, or you know you look at their art or whatever they're there, it doesn't feel like there is like more there or it's kind of very so it could feel like very surface level or maybe that there isn't a lot of talent, or you know yeah it's, it's kind of it's weird and it means that the people that are not on that level, who are perhaps more talented than those people, are having to work harder to be seen and to be like well, don't compare me to this person because they had all kinds of legs up, whereas I'm just out here like oh, I've got a new follower, like you know, I mean, it's, it's kind of it's interesting.
Speaker 2:And then when you kind of chuck in, like the venues closing and the competition for funding and all of this stuff, it makes it harder on another level, on top of that, for people that need that kind of support to be able to kind of really like hone in on their craft and build upon it, like gather a community of people that are interested in their stuff, and all of this like it makes it harder.
Speaker 2:Whereas, again, if you have, like you know, mates in really high places or money sitting in that's a very good chunk of money sitting that you could just tap into Then that's not something that you really need to think about. So, yeah, and then you you know there's sometimes there are some people just who are not creative that see somebody being an artist as like that's a waste of time, or you know the, the ease in which anyone can make a beat now, for example, is kind of downplayed a lot now compared to a few years ago and it's like, oh well, or you know, if you're not working at the bbc, then I don't know what you're doing, so you must be struggling or some kind of, and it's like, well, it can be a bit more amorphous than that, it doesn't have to be a straight nine to five, um, and if you don't want it to be, it doesn't have to be, so it's.
Speaker 2:It's a weird one, it's a. It's a good time. It's also a weird time right now with things. Yeah, I've run out of words no, I love what you're saying.
Speaker 1:it is a weird time, um and this is probably a total tangent, but um, I was thinking about, like human evolution the other day, and just like in the last 20 years, the amount of new stuff our brains have all taken on, um, in terms of like, um, ai, even, you know, just even like going from like dial-up modems in the last 20 years to to what we have now on our phones, um, and the amount of information that's constantly going on there.
Speaker 1:There's a lot going on, and so I feel it feels like, in a way, like we're all constantly in some kind of discourse at the moment, and I think one of the most beautiful things about art is that, although it's so tied together with content in terms of like, how we experience it, like experience someone else's art, you know, whatever that is, it is also just a place where people can find some kind of sense of themselves and sense of being in their moment and presentness, and I was wondering what your take on that is like how you know your art for you, what it represents for you, not in terms of like, sort of like. I'm going to make an album and it's going to be fucking brilliant. It's going to be about represents for you, not in terms of like sort of like, I'm gonna make an album and it's gonna be fucking brilliant.
Speaker 2:it's gonna be about this, but just in terms of the, the experience of when you're in the flow or when you, when you have your setup and you're just digging into it um, sometimes it's questions, um, so the the best way for me to kind of answer that is to kind of go back through things I've done and say what kind of brought them into it or what brought them into out of my head. Because, yeah, so with bashy, that was like, um, my mental health wasn't great and I took myself to turkey and I had my microphone. Like my, my gut said bring your microphone. So I brought it and then I just recorded sounds and then I performed with those sounds, like a little while later and thought this could be a thing, and then put that out with with Chasing Solitude, like I had, I had COVID at the time that I made it.
Speaker 2:With, uh, chasing solitude, like I had, I had covid at the time that I made it and that was like got the questions of okay, I'm, I'm, you know, bound to this room in my house, but yet this is the most peace I felt, even though I'm ill, like that's messed up, and especially as a black queer woman, a dark-skinned black queer woman.
Speaker 2:In fact, there's increasing pressure on us to just be on it all the time, so so when is it that we actually get a moment to have proper solitude and proper rest. And like why is it that that never feels like it's a permanent thing of like oh, I'm going to rest now, or like I'm going to, I'm going to rest now, or like I'm going to, I'm going to schedule in rest. And all of this like why is that? Why does that feel so out of reach, particularly from from my experiences and my and just you know who I am? Um, why is that? And then kind of digging into that a little bit, and then there were more kind of like, I guess, like with like the night ep that I did that was more sounds of night and you know what.
Speaker 2:What does what does night mean for different people? Uh, you know, oftentimes people are clubbing, but not so much. What does insomnia feel like? I've had insomnia in the past, so what was that like? And of this?
Speaker 2:So sometimes it's a bit more kind of a concept has kind of come out of nowhere, and in other times it's like I'm experiencing something and the best way for me to try and talk about it, I guess, or to kind of express it, is in music, cause I I don't always have the vocabulary to just go.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling like this today and here's what, like, I can't always do that, so sometimes it's in through creation to just make the thing. And then sometimes the question happens before, sometimes it happens afterwards, when I listen back and go, oh, that's interesting. And then a lot of times because, uh, for a while I would do and I guess I still do I'll do like a live performance of something and I'll record it, and there'll be moments in there that I'm just improvising with sounds, and then I'll listen back to that and go, oh, that bit, whether it's a good like 10 minutes of the thing or even just a couple seconds where I've done something interesting it's like oh, maybe that could form something else later, maybe I can add synths and stuff to that particular bit and put that later on or something. So it's it's. It's not a standard process.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes when I teach I'm I will say to people like I kind of do it the backwards way, where I'll perform something and then and then, and then produce with it later on after the fact, instead of going, here is a song, I'm now going to perform my song like it's yeah, and I quite like that, because it's just like everything else will disappear and I'll be doing this thing for I don't know an hour and then I'll come back into the room like, oh good, thank you, yes, like I disappeared in front of you for like an hour.
Speaker 1:Where did you go? Where did you go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so. I'm not. I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable, but I'm just like yeah, people Shit, okay, now you need to talk, oh crap, when. Um, now you need to talk, oh crap. Um, when I've done a gig, um, and it's fine. Often people like laugh and are just like really sweet about it, but it's, yeah, it's quite funny to be like oh hello, I forgot you were here, um, so it's fine.
Speaker 2:but, um, it's nice to kind of go from those kinds of ways of creating stuff, and I'm not too stuck in on anything Plus like we've cause I'm in like two groups at the moment as well, like TC and the Groove Family and Seed, with Cassie Kenosha being around those musicians, yeah, is is like, is so enriching for me. Like I I can't read music, I'm not like trained in the quote unquote classical or traditional way music in an instrument like that. So it's nice to kind of be in those spaces with those musicians and just listen to how they're talking about music, how they're playing, and learn through proxy I guess, like how how they do stuff, and then that then informs me later on.
Speaker 1:I guess, um, yeah, how did music initially come into your life like? Did you have like a moment very early on, like an epiphany, or was it just always there, or did it creep in somehow?
Speaker 2:it was. It was always there. I mean me with my chaotic self. It was like I want to be this and I want to be this and I want to be this and I want to be this and um, I didn't really like stick to one particular bit of the um. You know working in the music industry, but it was.
Speaker 2:You know, I grew up with a sound system in my house, so I was always in some kind of room with bass in some way, shape or form, surrounded by vinyl and stuff. So there was that. And then the kind of video game aspect was interesting, because there were video games that I used to play where the soundtracks would be amazing or you would like make music on those games. So, uh, ridge Racer type 4, like, not enough people are talking about that. I'm sorry, the soundtrack to that is too sick, like and and I'm unbeatable, but that's another conversation. But like, ridge racer type 4 soundtrack is amazing. Um, tekken, I think, yeah, I mean dead or alive as well. There was another game called x-men evolution no, yeah, x-men evolution, which was a fighting game.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you could put the cd of the playstation game into like a cd player or a car and listen to it so I used to do that with like grand fifth auto and stuff and just like listen to, like oh, this is the radio track from if you go in a certain car and you you know. So that played a really big part. But then the music production side was like there was a this is showing my age now, but I don't care there was a promotion ages ago where you could get cd roms in cereal boxes and there was like a yellow one, a green one, a blue one and a red one and like they were all music themed in some kind of a way and my family were like right, nixon, to me, get what color did you get? All right, cool, I'm gonna try and get the blue one. And like you couldn't tell from the um cereal box what colors it were that you were getting right, okay so, um, yeah, managed to get all of them.
Speaker 2:there was a red one that was a vj, another one that was virtual dj, and then there was a radio one, or I kind of used it as like a radio thing. And then the green one was like a more hip hop specific beat maker thing. And yeah, we just, you know, after school, load that and start like putting all these random samples together and making beats and pretending I was on BBC radio or something, and yeah, it was just like really silly. And then there was another game called music 3000 which was on the playstation and that again you could sample uh stuff, you could put a cd in and sample it, or you know make stuff with their samples on there.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of gamified for me very early and then it was like I'm learning about it, I guess, through video games. I'm learning about it culturally through there being a sound system in my house and you know, christmas we'd all just like skank out to some jungle or whatever. We didn't play any christmas, carols and shit.
Speaker 1:It was just yeah oh yeah, we're going with the amen breaks, let's go.
Speaker 2:And then at school it was like, oh, this is more like GCSE stuff, I'm learning about other genres. I'm also being introduced to other music from my friends and getting a real sense of like, oh, okay, so classical isn't just like movie soundtrack stuff, there's also like, there's also Debussy, and you know there's also more interesting layers to it than just you know, here's the Raiders of the Lost Ark theme, go play that, or whatever layers to it than just you know, here's the raiders of the lost ark theme, go play that or whatever. And then, and then, and like I had music lessons as well. So and I think my music teacher at the time clocked that I was dyslexic, so he was like oh, here is middle c, this dot lines up with this note and do it this way. So we worked around it. But yeah, and then I was learning about that, I learned about fruity loops.
Speaker 2:And then I learned through friends like um, my mate was a goth at the time and she introduced me to like slipknot and stuff. And then there was also there was grime, there was garage, there was jungle, there was um like jamiroquai really stuck out to me for some. Well, I mean obviously jamiroquai sick, but like to me for some. Well, I mean obviously Jamiroquai's sick, but like you know, that was a thing, we'd watch Top of the Pops. It was just like there was just an inundation of music like all the time. And I even got in trouble a couple of times because I was listening to music in my science class on my MP3 player, cause I was like I'd rather listen to Aaliy. But you know, like right, but what were you saying about bunsen burners? Oh no, but like it was kind of.
Speaker 2:It was that kind of I was just like I was just it was all just getting absorbed into me through various things and um, so it was like, yeah, I want to do this. I don't know how or in what way, I just want to be able to do it. And then it kind of developed more in college with like oh, I can, you know, study this in this kind of a way, cool. So I did music tech in college and then learning about like oh, you know, the studio environment and the different kinds of microphones and all of this stuff. And then that led to dipping my toe a little bit in djing because I was like I'd like to play other people's music, but I don't want to necessarily make do that with my own stuff, because I don't know what I'm doing with that yet, and that was cool and like I'd make, like I'd make like cds for my mom to put in the car and stuff, like yeah, so that was cool.
Speaker 2:And then that led to uni and kind of learning about it on another level of academic stuff, and I'll never forget the very first lecture, the very first lecture, walking in after kind of learning about like okay, there's timberland and there's pharrell and there's like all of these people and yeah, this is what I'm gonna do, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna be the british missy elliott that doesn't rap. Yeah, let's go, let's go, let's go. So then fast forward to walking into the lecture um hall and just seeing the the the guy who runs that entire course on the table meditating, ah, we were like, oh no, have I just gotten into depth? Oh no, is this the right room?
Speaker 2:I feel like some of us and it was the right room it was the right room yeah some of us were like, wait, is this? And then other people were like, oh shit oh my god, was he.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess you can do that, if you. I mean, did you think he was john cage or something?
Speaker 2:no, I think. I think it was so in like. At the time, me and other people were like oh shit, we just put ourselves in debt and it's just. This is not, this is not what we signed up for, fuck. But then in hindsight it was like oh no, no, we're undoing what. We've spent two years, three years, in college learning Right, ok.
Speaker 2:So the course was called Music, tech and Innovation and it was just about just undoing what we, what we'd learned, basically, and just learn looking at sound and recontextualizing it in more in way, more broader ways than a lot of us had experienced at that point. So, yeah, I was walking in being like wait, why is my guy sitting on the desk? And he was like oh no, okay, I get why, but at the time I was like oh shit, I really just yeah I mean what I mean?
Speaker 1:like I'm really interested in the idea of that, like the sort of like unlearning or or like decluttering or whatever, but like, yeah, what do you, what do you feel? Um, did you fit, do you feel like you came out of that? Uh, also like sort of like this teacher is like a kind of uh, you know, seeing music as something to meditate to, or like you know, would you, would you do that yourself if you were teaching a class now?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. Would I do that now? I don't know actually, and I like that. I don't know that because whenever, whenever I have been asked to teach, it's been very much in more of the kind of traditional DJ realm what traditional in parentheses, dj kind of situation, traditional in parentheses dj kind of um situation. Or when I was doing a bit of music production lecturing, it was more like you know, a compressor does this um, I use it in this way, for example, but here are two other clips from people explaining it and using it in other, in different ways. It's the same process, like you're using a compressor to do these things, but there are different ways of using it. So there isn't there isn't like any one correct way of using it as an example.
Speaker 2:So and I really try to like hone that in whenever I do teach, because because I know that there are people the way that language plays an important part in how people explain things, especially as somebody who is like neurodivergent is very important. So when people are like yeah, you have to do this, and like if you don't do that, then it's wrong, and like it's like no, you can find your own way with the thing, it doesn't have to be so like strictly prescriptive, it can be a bit more. We're messing around with sound. At the end of the day, why is it so like rigid in all of that shit? Like that's really frustrating, it's really frustrating. So whenever I do teach, I try and like say, like, look for one. I'm neurodivergent, so the way that I might explain something you might not get, and that's fine. Here are other people explaining it in a different way and you know, before we move on, I am going to check in and be like are we good? Do you understand what I'm saying, what that person's saying? All right, cool. Next thing.
Speaker 2:So I take that into in consideration. Um, a lot when, when teaching. But yeah, I think you know, would I meditate on a desk? And I don't know, maybe I don't know, I like that. I don't know. That's a good question. But yeah, it really did kind of shock us and maybe that was the point, to just be like, oh, you thought it was this, when it's not. And I'm really grateful for it actually, because yeah, it really, you know, there were times when a few of us were fighting with the lecturers to just be like we want to put drums in this thing and they're like you don't have to, though it's like no, but I want to like no, but I want to, though, like I want to put drums, but you actually want to rather than like you should do yeah, yeah, and it's kind of like you know.
Speaker 2:They're like well, what if you didn't?
Speaker 2:it's like no, but like you're asking me to make a thing, I'm gonna put drums in it and it's, and they're like yeah, but like you don't have to do that and just trying to like get us to not do it, um was really interesting. And then, like that was also um the time where I learned about like uh, spatial music, like fight, like doing stuff in 5.1, predominantly at that time 5.1 stuff and um like I also kind of got first introduced to turntablism in my first year I think of uh, uni, um, dmu, de montfort, uni in leicester, and um there was a so yeah, sorry, going back to like a key moment type of situation. So at this point I was kind of learning to dj or I could dj a little bit and was still kind of like very much in the bedroom, like me pressing buttons, like.
Speaker 2:And then there was a lecture, a guest lecture from um uh, I believe she's a doctor, dr sophie smith, and she talked about turntablism and I was like blown away because she talked about john cage. She talked about um uh, christian marclay, pierre schaefer, uh and all of these people. But she also talked about grandmaster flash and um cool herc and like the, the block parties in the 80s and how that transformed hip-hop and created hip-hop. She talked about shiva fesherecki. She talked about um mr switch and how they've both done performances at the proms and all of this stuff like she. Really it was such a and to this day I need to meet her and buy her a beverage of choice, because I absolutely would not be doing what I'm doing without that lecture Like that was such a key moment for me.
Speaker 1:I love those little moments where you can actually trace something back to the beginning point, where it was that person at that time that introduced you to that person, that, where that idea went, it came to you. Yeah, they are really important to remember, aren't they?
Speaker 2:absolutely, absolutely. And like I'm trying to find out how I can get in touch with her because I'm like, listen, I need to buy you, like I don't care, I don't care if it's like you know a glass of orange juice or something I need to buy. I need to thank you in person and I need to buy you a beverage of choice. So if you, if anyone has the hookup, please help me out um listeners, listeners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, get in touch, get in touch like subscribe now um, that's my job sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm hyped on my green tea. I'm sorry, um, but like, yeah, so she, that lecture was really informative and that. So it was like in an academic sense that was really important. But then in a more kind of social sense, this is happening also around the same time where I was working in a bar and shout out to the basement crew og, basement crew.
Speaker 2:I was working in this bar and um, on friday nights was their kind of main funk breaks, hip hop kind of night called Bug Out, and all of the DJs that played there could all scratch. So I'd be out there collecting glasses and shit and I'd like peer over the booth, like what are you doing? What's up? Yo, and I'd have to be like I've got like a million glasses. I'm like whoa, that's some cool shit.
Speaker 2:Okay, shit, now I need to go back, like and then you know, we all became really good friends and then eventually I ended up like becoming a member of the, of the collective the bug out, and started to basically just dj there instead of working behind the bar and like that led to other events happening in Leicester at the time. Like there was another collective called MUDS which was like there was like graffiti artists and break dancers and like independent filmmakers and photographers and DJs and MCs and producers, and like everybody was just really banding together at the time in Leicester to just like make some cool shit and just, you know, put on some cool stuff.
Speaker 1:um, and it was a very special time can I ask you just on that that, if you don't mind, um, I can always cut this if you, if you're not happy to, but what time was this what? What kind of era are we talking about here?
Speaker 2:so 2010 to like 2015. I want to say like right, okay, yeah, very halicon times, I think just generally for a lot of people and it was interesting because at that time as well it was like you know the kind of more mainstream dubstep was kind of really popping off, yeah, all of a sudden, like nero and chaser status and that kind of all of the crazy wubs just like everywhere, all of a sudden um, and it was interesting like I wasn't in london at the time that you know the deeper dubstep was kind of coming up and stuff.
Speaker 2:But in college I learned about burial and that was a transformative moment as well, like particularly the first two albums of burial. Like I vividly remember being in one of those like computer rooms with like all of the Macs kind of just all you know lined up next to each other just messing about on YouTube and then I found a video that somebody had, like somebody had put Archangel to like a couple of scenes from an anime and the way that it all worked it was just amazing and I was like who is this? Who made this Burial? Who the fuck is this guy? And like just the I'd never heard any music like that before. It was so textural, like even just the way that he uses noise.
Speaker 2:And I later on found out that it was Metal Gear Solid that he sampled and stuff. Like the way that he was able to kind of put all of this it was Metal Gear Solid that he sampled and stuff. Like the way that he was able to kind of put all of this as well as like well-known R&B vocals and kind of create these worlds was just like what. And I was, I don't know, maybe like 17 or something, 18, when I heard his stuff and was like this is some mad shit, what? And instant, fan, instant fan yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know I was was. It was like I was listening to him. I was listening to a lot of trip hop, which I know is a kind of that. The name of the genre is kind of contested with a few people, which is fair. I don't mean to offend people, that's just how. That was the word given to me yeah, I represent, like portishead and stuff. I know some people aren't happy with it and I I understand. But yeah, I know is it Tricky yeah.
Speaker 2:Tricky is particularly like averse to calling trip hop that um and that's fair.
Speaker 1:You know that's fair. That's fair as an artist that makes it. We don't feel. We often, us, often artists don't feel comfortable with the yeah the labels that get put upon them, and I totally understand that as well yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:so I just want to note that it's like I know, you know, there are people that don't want to be associated with that kind of name for that kind of style of music. I'm merely saying it as how it kind of came to me, yeah, in a very formative moment, um, so yeah, like um, portishead, tricky maloco, uh, there's more of my brains, my brain, my brain, my brain is blanking, uh, but like that kind of style was, was particularly especially Portishead. That was really like oh wow, they're using samples in a different way to what I've previously heard, mainly in hip hop, like oh that's interesting and and it's different to chart music at the time and all of this stuff.
Speaker 2:So it was very I'm very much a sponge. There was so much going on in terms of like, oh, you have an assignment, let's do that for your coursework as well as just walking around you know london or leicester or whatever, but um, yeah, 2010. So I was studying 2010 to 2013 and then I stayed in leicester for a little bit afterwards um but like, yeah, the yeah.
Speaker 2:It was kind of a crucial time to kind of be like surrounded by all the people. I was surrounded by learning about artists from friends, as well as like people to check out for my studies and, you know, running up to the dj booth going what was that last tune? No, what was that? All right, cool, cool, and it's just running away again and you know, serving a margarita or something. So it was kind of there was a lot happening, um, and then to kind of regurgitate that out into stuff I made at the time.
Speaker 2:It was also quite interesting of just like I just want to make this, like at the time as well. Like you know, I would put stuff up on bandcamp and be like I made this. Hey, not think about it, you know. Now it's like oh wait, do I need to? Like? I need to think about it? Not well, to an extent, I guess it's. It's become a bit more serious now, especially with soundcloud. It's like you know, oh, you want to upload that, there's samples in it. You can't. I was like it's just an idea, dude, it's I'm not looking to, I'm not monetizing this. Um, it's not something I'm thinking about in that kind of a way, it was just an idea that I want to just put up. That's all.
Speaker 1:Oh, I miss old soundcloud yeah, yeah, what would you say would be the? I mean, what would you say um to someone that's listening for is getting a bit confused between the idea of what a dj is and what a turban table list is like. I mean, they're very interlinking, but how would you sort of talk about their connections or differences?
Speaker 2:okay. So, um, a turntable list. Um is somebody that will scratch. Uh, they will use the turntables specifically turntables, but, um, the technology's kind of changed now, so you see people doing it on other things, but they will. I'll keep it to turntables for now. They will mainly create new sounds, new melodies, new things with with how they're using the equipment. So typically it's two turntables and a mixer.
Speaker 2:Old school ways you would buy a record that had like loads of samples on it. It might maybe mark grandmaster flash would mark on it with a crayon or a sticker certain samples that you wanted to use on one deck. So, yeah, so on one deck you'd have a record with all of these samples, your mixer in the middle, and then on another deck you would have like the beat that you're scratching. So again, it'd be like the break of a. It used to be like the break of a disco track that you would scratch. But yeah, I'm trying not to get too nebulous, but basically you're using that setup that's mainly for playing records. You're using it in a more creative way to make new stuff with it. Very basic, very, very basically right.
Speaker 1:So it's about making new stuff with it rather than maintaining like a set of music for like, most likely for a dance floor or for listening yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So I guess where people get confused is that you might see people um like me or like, say, jazzy jeff, uh, doing a set, doing a dj set, but also scratching yeah so in those instances they're basically using the techniques that they've learned primarily as a turntablist and applying that to a club dj set.
Speaker 2:So they would maybe scratch the beginning of a tune or you know, or like make a new beat with two of the same track on two turntables and scratch between them. That's called beat juggling. So they might do that, for example, like I'm waving my hands around and shit, but like they'll, they'll kind of create a new beat using two of the same track, uh, or same record, if they have it. You know. So is there's ways to kind of interpret and and interpret it and it's been reinterpreted in a few different ways.
Speaker 2:But yeah, generally, like on a really basic level, a turntablist will make something new with the material that they have right and a dj will be playing music that's been made by other people and they'll make, they'll mix it creatively and whatever else, but like there isn't that whole making part, Like on a really basic level, on a really basic level, but that's a really good sort of way of dividing it down.
Speaker 1:And you've got to the point where, like you know, you've played. You mentioned Grandmaster Flash. You've played on the, you know, the same time as him. You know what? Tell us about that? That must've been crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was fucking nuts. You know what? Tell us about that. That must have been crazy. That was fucking nuts.
Speaker 1:He can confirm really lovely guy, it's good to know yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really really lovely guy. So, yeah, at this point. So we've moved now from Leicester to Leeds and I think it was 2017, I think or 2018. And I'd been DJing a bit in Leeds and you know, I was like cool and I'm doing my master's and whatever.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, yeah, um, the uh promoters were like, yeah, do you want to support grandmaster flash? I'm like what, what, what, what do you mean? What do you mean? What are you talking about? What do you talk? What are you talking about? And then, um, was it yes? And then, uh, I remember, like walking into the venue on the day and, um, he, so, where the stage? Um, where the stage is like next to the doors that you would walk into the room, sort of thing. Um, so I'm walking in and then he just shouts knickknack and I'm like oh, my god, oh my god. And uh, I'm just like yes, hello, sir. And he's like no, no, no, no, we ain't doing that. I'm like I, okay, I'm sorry, you are an elder, you are an elder, I'm trying to be respectful and he's like it's all good.
Speaker 2:It's all good. Gives me a massive hug and he's like so I hear you're playing before me. It's sick, all right, what tunes do you gonna play? And I was like I'm probably gonna play more hip-hoppy stuff meanwhile, or funk stuff meanwhile.
Speaker 2:I'm in my head, I'm like holy fuck what the fuck just just just put the words together and then say them it's fine, um, you know. And he's like, oh, that's great, you know. So he he's like, looking through my library on on serato, like, oh yeah, this is the kind of thing I'm, you know, I'm going for this kind of vibe, you know. And he's like, oh, my God, you're too young to have these tunes. What the fuck. And I'm like, thank you, I did my research. I did my research. And, um, uh, you know, he's like, oh, you know why, why do you do this? Why, like to be honest, yeah, it makes my mum proud. That's why I do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he's like, okay, okay, I got you, I got you. And then you like continue. He's like, yeah, I've got to go back and continue setting up, but, yeah, it's really great to meet. You, can't wait for your set. Yeah, fast forward. Sound check is fine. Fast forward to the actual event. I'm you know, all right, let's not, let's not fuck this up. Uh, I do my set and I'm like, cool, I feel very happy with my set.
Speaker 2:I recorded it. I was like, yeah, this is a key moment for me, all right, cool. And then, uh, yeah, flash gets on stage and he does his thing. It's amazing. And, uh, he's got like a setup with like the camera pointing down so you can see what his hands are doing on the screen behind, sort of thing. And and he's like a it's like a whole av kind of presentation of like where hip-hop began and where it is now. And it was so cool. It was like, really, yeah, I love how he just kind of was able to bring the old school into like more contemporary hip-hop and stuff like it was. It was great, it was so good.
Speaker 2:And um, yeah, I think a mate of mine, um, was playing at the end. So I was kind of like packing up my stuff and ready to go, but, um, I kind of walked the uh, the artist exit was on the other side of the stage, so I kind of went like backstage, as it were, and was like thanks, it was really great. I was just again like form the words in your head and then say them like it's not. So I was kind of like, oh, this is great, thank you so much. And he was like, yeah, your set was amazing, but please keep in touch.
Speaker 2:You know, the next time that we're here, we'd love for you to support. I'm like what? And you know just like, oh wait, do you want me to maybe be your tour dj or something? What, what, what? And then, just like you know, trying not to fall over as I left the building, like what the fuck? And then, um, yeah, like the second time he came to leeds, I supported him. Then just yeah, is, that was insane. And that was a moment of like I'm actually all right, you know. It was like, oh, yeah, I can do this. Yeah, I've supported Grandma's First Trust.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah, definitely, that's definitely like another one of these things. That like is is another way of saying yes, this is what, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:You know, this is, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing very affirming very and I think what's really interesting is is talking about turntablism and talking about these influences, and then, um, these influences filter through your albums.
Speaker 1:But there's also such a like, um, an undercurrent of like I, I guess like sort of most like. It's like expressionist sort of like I don't know if it's expressionist impression, I always get really mixed up between these ones but like sort of jackson pollock-esque art to your albums. There's a vote, there's a sort of, there's a freeformness, there's a sort of immersiveness, there's a sort of feeling of like going with emotion rather than like what, what a song structure is supposed to do. In a certain way, they feel like they're guided by like an idea or a feeling rather than and I'm sorry, I hope I'm not mis uh, interpreting your music. Here's just, it's more like how I'm interpreting it myself, you know. So I was wondering how the turntablism for you evolved into these recordings, which are pretty experimental in a lot of ways well, firstly, that's all very kind.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate that. Like you know, I don't think I've ever been said in the same sentence as jackson pollux. That's mad. Um, I and I really appreciate that. Thank you, um, I think it's the most expressive I can. I can be, um, like I feel I feel really comfortable behind some decks and, like I say, I can just disappear for a bit and come back and be like I don't know what I just did.
Speaker 2:I feel like other times it's like, oh, we're doing a set Okay, lock in, this is the set list and we're doing this and blah. But when it's me making slash, performing my own stuff, it's kind of like I'm just going to see where we go. And yeah, I like that. Like every set I do, especially my live sets, they're all just improvised. I don't know what I'm doing for that time. And then I'll look up and be like, oh shit, I've got five minutes, all right. I don't know what I'm doing for that time. And then I'll look up and be like, oh shit, I've got five minutes, all right. So I like that, that sense of freedom that I have in those moments. What else was it? What was another part of the?
Speaker 1:question. I guess it was about like yeah, just the experimentation really, like sort of taking turntablism into an experimental way for quite a lot of the recordings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like there as well, because I mean, it's, it's, it is an instrument like I feel the way that I'm able to create sounds and play with sounds is, yes, it's different, but it's not too dissimilar from, like a guitarist getting a bunch of pedals and just messing about for a bit like it's you know, or a drummer just wanting to just, you know, hit, hit, everything can just, instead of it being a proper syncopated beat, it's just, I'm just gonna see what textures I can make with with this stuff that I'm most comfortable with, uh, you know, playing with, and it is play like you know, it's not.
Speaker 2:Uh, parts of me have been like, oh, maybe I should have done, you know, music theory in a more, maybe in college or something. Maybe I could have done that a bit more seriously at that time. Maybe I could have learned piano and I could have learned the bass or I could have learned drums in a more kind of traditional school setting and learned about it in that kind of a way to unlock more shit in the future, maybe. But also I'm really thankful in that, like my introduction with music besides just listening to it was was gamified at a very at an early age. So that sense of play has never really left me like, although you know it, it I'll watch gamers like play resident evil or whatever. I'll watch them play and I'm like I'm never playing that shit, but it's fun to watch them play it, you know, and then get scared and stuff like, okay, cool, it's the sense of play. I think that's probably what it is and it, you know, I can play with the sound of a train going by and turn it into something else using this, using this stuff. I feel like if I tried to do that on something else, I would probably struggle and become frustrated that I wasn't able to do the thing, whereas on the turntables it's like, oh, I'll find it, and then something else will come and I'll be like, oh, that's cool, what's that? Let's, let's stick, let's stay here for a bit and just play with this bit and it's like all right, cool.
Speaker 2:I feel like now we can move on from there and go into something. There's more fluidity, that's the word I'm looking for. There's more fluidity there and that kind of shows and being able to kind of go oh, I recorded a sound off of my phone. I recorded, you know, I don't know, uh, if we go back to bashy, like I recorded sitting at the beach for like an hour. Let's mess around with those sounds and see what I can do with that, or you know it's, it's, it's nice, and it also means that like I'm able to kind of recontextualize that moment that I recorded, so with um, uh, with Ireti, for example, with um, how am I forgetting the fucking song? That's bad, bad. But on one of the break, break my bones I think. Yeah, there's like a, there's a siren that gets manipulated. That was done live. I did that. I can't remember where exactly I did that, but I did that somewhere.
Speaker 1:From improv, from scratch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, if you excuse the pun.
Speaker 1:No, no, I was from scratch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, if I excuse the pun, no, no, I was. I was waiting for it, is there?
Speaker 2:but, like, yeah, there's this.
Speaker 2:I particularly love sirens, um, like that that they have quite a cornerstone in like dub music, in dubstep, in garage and whatever.
Speaker 2:So it's like that that sticks with me, and so be able to kind of bring that into something else is nice. And then, yeah, like I listened I can't remember where I did that performance, but I did that listened back to it and was like, oh, what else could be happening here? And then structuring you know, the other elements of what then becomes, break my bones into into it, which is nice, because I feel like there's times where I do stuff and it's like in the moment I'm just creating, I'm not really thinking about anything else really. But then to listen back and go, there's something here, let's maybe play with that, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's nice to kind of have that moment of like I did this, I don't know, last week, for example, but I want to revisit it and see if there's something there to play with yeah that could turn into something else, that could form into you know, another track or be potentially the start of another project or something like it's.
Speaker 2:It's nice to have that freedom and I feel like you know this is coming from somebody that can, like I can play the bass very basically.
Speaker 2:I can play the drums very basically. My initial kind of introduction to music is very, very much electronic and gamified, but I can play a little bit of those instruments and piano and stuff. So I'm able to kind of meld that I guess the more traditional quote-unquote way of learning these instruments and playing these instruments into an electronic place and kind of go, okay, well, what could that be? Like you know, um, and being put in situations where so yeah, like I've mentioned before, being in two bands where everybody else is like way more traditionally um, experienced, let's say that's a another learning curve, because I know that not not all of them has that production um, understanding some some do, don't get me wrong, but like that's my will, the production, production is my wheelhouse, not playing traditional instruments in that kind of sense. So it's nice to kind of bounce ideas off of each other and be in those spaces with everybody, cause it's like you're talking about like major chord, third shit. I'm like I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1:I don't know what a tonic is. People talk about the word tonic sometimes in notation.
Speaker 2:That's a drink. Yeah, sometimes in notation that's a drink. Yeah, exactly that's what it. Keep it. Keep it simple. Yeah, that's a drink.
Speaker 1:I don't know that's a drink, yeah, tonic water. You want lemon with that?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, like I'll have a vodka, tonic plays and a lime.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's fine okay I can understand that I can understand that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:The bar knowledge never leaves man. I swear.
Speaker 1:It never leaves. It's hardwired in, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2:once you know how to make that shit, it's just like yep locked in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man and how do you see, how do you hear um has, um? Because of your involvement with music now and because so much of it deals with the actual like natures of sounds itself, how, how does that sort of altered your perception of just sound in life like? Are you like listening to stuff when you're walking down the street, like you do?
Speaker 2:you hear things that aren't like organized music you know in the environment in a different way oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I have to, you know, give credit to the kind of academic side of things, because that introduced me to, like, I say, john cage, etc. So it was nice to kind of be in a position now where I might be traveling and I'll hear, like the, the rumble of the train or um, you know the, just the, the way that the crowd is interacting as I'm walking through I don't know King's Cross or something like this. There's moments where it's like that's a cool sound. Let me just quickly record it. I don't always walk with, like a Zoom mic. I feel like that feels more prepared. You know like, oh, I'm going to go and record sounds today, so I'm going to have my Zoom mic and the cables and the headphones and the block. Like that feels way more kind of structured compared to just being somewhere and going like, oh, what was that?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know you can't, always you can't like, you know you can't nip out to the shops to get some milk with, uh, your zoom mic every day I will.
Speaker 2:I feel like I mean, I've done a few residencies where that's become the part, the part of the process, yeah, so it's like oh, I'm here to do this, so I will have my zoom mic. But when it's more like, uh, like traveling to London I mean just traveling really like there'll be something going on where it's like that's cool if I can catch that, great. If not, fine. Like there was a I think a few was it last year there was some kind of an alarm happening at king's cross and I was waiting for a train but the, the piercing alarm sound and I was like I must have been like near a speaker or something. But it was such a piercing sound and I was like that's cool, I could scratch with that, I could mess around with that and like people and I think I must have said it out loud, because there were some people like wait, what?
Speaker 2:I was, like oh, no, no, I'm gonna sample it and didn't know, like, oh, okay, and I was just there, like, just so, it's kind of like, I know I look weird, but it's fine, I'm literally just I'm not trying to find 5g, I'm not trying to do the, I'm not trying to do the um, mufasa and simba thing with my phone and that. But like I'm just trying to like get this sound like nicely and then I can mess about in it later. So there's a bit more like uh chaos with just kind of going oh shit, and then like getting your phone out, like yeah yeah, it's a bit like taking a photo when you know when.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know where. You sort of oh my god, I've got to get my camera out in time and you know that something's gonna. You know the sound. Or the person's gonna have moved, or the cat's going to have jumped off the bin, you know yeah yeah, that's a really yeah, that's a really good um, way of putting it as well.
Speaker 2:Like I did dabble in photography for a little bit. So, yeah, I also understand that of like oh, snapshot, like wait, like it's, you know, it's more, I guess, more it's like nowadays it's like, oh, you can just take your phone out and take a quick picture, but it's there's a bit more chaos when it comes to just like recording a sound just in the moment. If you're able to catch it, great, um, it's, it's. It's kind of fun to be like, oh, that's cool and just sit. Or, like you know, traveling on the tube in london, it's kind of fun to be like, oh, that's cool and just sit. Or, like you know, traveling on the tube in London, it's like, oh, what's this resonant? Because obviously they're loud as fuck, but it's really nice to kind of be like, oh, that there's a resonant bit here. I mean, just try and capture that.
Speaker 2:Like that's fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always really love the tubes in the subways in Berlin or wherever, whichever city I'm going to, it's like the subway has its own language as its own pitch and tone and weirdnesses and quirks. And I particularly like it where, like in the, in the cities, where it feels like they haven't really updated the sounds for a very, very long time and they sort of sound like you know, they sound creaky. Like when I first moved to central Europe the tannoy sounded creaky, like I was stepping back into like Bowie's Berlin or something.
Speaker 2:That's true actually. Yeah, like the, the, the older trains have a different language than the newer trains. And even just how people maybe this is a psychological thing even how people kind of interact on the newer trains compared to the older ones. Like you're having to talk way louder on the older ones because it's just like it's just screaming at you when it's on the newer trains you can just have a normal conversation and everybody's way more hush, or you know, I don't know that's interesting.
Speaker 1:That's so weird. Yeah, like you know's, just I don't know that's it. That's interesting. So it's a bit like yeah, like you know, like doing uh, uh, like doing some vocals, or like maybe like someone's recording a singer and they're used to reverb and then suddenly like saying, okay, like you're gonna sing completely dry with no reverb. It's like really like suddenly, yeah, there's all of this like space around you. That's always been there, but now it's present and it can be a bit. It can. It can change the dynamic of how people feel about like in this, the train example, like talking or yeah, yeah, people feel, yeah, yeah, that's a really oh.
Speaker 1:She wrote a book there we go, get the inspiration down.
Speaker 2:that was some deep shit, sorry, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That was a worry. Just a final question, Like I mean, if you could go back to your younger self, what advice?
Speaker 2:would you give your younger self, oh, bloody hell, say no more often, rest, um, rest and, I guess, just keep exploring, because I think the gamified-ness of it all has stayed and stuff and I like that. I don't have a prescribed way of doing anything, it's just, you know, it's very chill and in the moment, like even my dj sets, it's just, you know, I'll get some tunes together but I don't know what order they're going to be in and that's a part of the fun. And then when transitions like work, it's like, oh shit, like it's. You know, have fun, like continue having fun. And yeah, the say no more often.
Speaker 2:There were, definitely there have been times I mean, that's just same of everybody really there's been times of like I said yes to a thing and I didn't really want to do it, or you know, I'm too tired to do a thing and I'm still having to do it and like it, feeling kind of bogged down by it. You know, if it's like my gut is saying no, then say no like don't be don't be scared and yeah, resting kind of is tied very much with that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, like, if I'm tired, um, it's okay to be tired, um, it's okay to rest. Uh, you know, and rest looks different to people, like it's not a one-size-fits-all. So take that into consideration because, yeah, yeah, it's weird, it is, everything is weird.
Speaker 1:It is. I think it's easier to say no when you have rested as well in certain respects. Particularly, I don't know if I'm picking up on the aspect of saying no in terms of like music and work and career stuff, um, where you know it's so easy to agree to do things because perhaps we're scared that, like we'll get another offer coming along, or like you know, or like maybe like it feels like an attractive step up, even if it's not a step in the right direction, that you, yeah, align to, yeah it's, it's, it's that.
Speaker 2:And it's also like, um, like I was saying to my mate actually the other day, like the people pleasing nurse, like if I don't want to do something, then I don't want to do something.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't have to feel so emboldened to go along with what a friend or whatever is doing if I'm, if I'm not feeling it, you know, I mean, it's, I guess nowadays is more of a language around that sort of stuff. But you know, yeah, when I was younger, I definitely was like, yeah, sure, I'll go to that, and my gut is like I don't want to be here, okay. Or you know, I'm, I'm here, but I'm also in a group of people that I feel uncomfortable with. Or there's a person here or something, and it's like I'm, I'm doing this to appease everybody else. I'm not comfortable, and then it's like overcompensating with, like, say, drinking or something, and it's just like I, I don't like that, you know. So I wish, yeah, saying to my younger self that, like you know, if you're not wanting to do a thing, um, then that's okay. And if people are like, well, why you should be, it's like, well, I don't want to yeah, that's it, that's perfect.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and I feel like what you're saying about the gamified nature as well, like the playing element. That would that be something that you would also, in the opposite of this relay, to remind your future self, say 100 yeah, yeah, yeah, like you know, I'm like play more.
Speaker 2:If anything like just figure out, I mean I'm. I think the for turntable isn't to land like or arrive to me in the ways that it did like in like the 2010s and stuff was such a formative time that like, yeah, great, keep up with that. And um, yeah, the playfulness around like just just sound and not thinking too seriously about it. A lot of the time is also really important, so being able to factor that in, too, would be, would be great. I think a lot of people because I mean, you know, being able to teach whenever I do helps me kind of like give that message to uh, students, whether they're older, around the same age or younger than me, and being able to just go. We are literally just messing about with sounds, bro, it's not that, it's not that deep.
Speaker 2:You know people have have launched like really successful careers, just making whatever they want to make and it resonates with people and stuff and you know you will find your audience and it can feel like, oh, I need to be a content creator and it's like I, bro, I would. I will happily just like put up a picture of my cat I'll. You know, here's a reel about something funny that somebody else did that I couldn't do because they captured it perfectly. So here's me sharing it, because I can't do it. But you know, or like, yes, come to my gig, or yes, I've got this out, nice one. But also here's a silly meme about some bullshit. Like I'd yeah, that's kind of playing in a way as well. So it's just, I guess, yeah, find, ah, there, we go find more moments to play find more moments to play.
Speaker 2:That's the, that's the t-shirt, that's the baseball cap right I need I need to sort out a fucking merch store. That is it, yeah there's so many things I've said in the past that I'm like, oh, I should be on a t-shirt and I'm like fuck, I need to make a yeah so um people listeners. Uh, if you can help, like subscribe like, subscribe, like and subscribe, if you can help out with merch shit, because I, I don't know, my brain can only do so much with adhd uh get in touch if you can help, please, and thank you oh, nick, thank you, that was excellent.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much. Okay, so that was me, paul hamford, speaking with nick knack for lost and sound podcast. We had that conversation on friday, january the 31st 2025. Thank you so much, nick knack, for your time, but I really, really, really enjoyed that chat. Um, her most recent album, ireti, is out now. Uh, go and check it out on bandcamp or wherever you like to listen to music if you've not listened to it already. Um, if you like the show as well and you haven't already, please give a subscribe, give the show a rating and a review on your platform of choice. It really, really, really does help, really does help build the show, and I appreciate every single one of you listening to this show. Um, you can listen to my radio documentary the man who smuggled punk rock across the berlin wall by heading on over to the bbc sounds app or on the bbc world service home page, and my book coming to berlin is still available in all good bookshops or via the publisher's website.
Speaker 1:Velocity press, audio techn Press, audio-technica are the sponsors of Lost in Sound, the global but family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones. They make studio-quality yet affordable products because they believe that high-quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to Audio-Technicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. The music that you hear at the beginning and the end of every episode of Lost in Sound is by Thomas Giddens, hyperlink in the podcast description. And so yeah, that's it. I hope you enjoyed today. I hope, whatever you're doing today, you're having a really, really, really fucking lovely one, and I'll chat to you soon. Thank you.