Lost And Sound
Lost and Sound is a podcast exploring the most exciting and innovative voices in underground, electronic, and leftfield music worldwide. Hosted by Berlin-based writer Paul Hanford, each episode features in-depth, free-flowing conversations with artists, producers, and pioneers who push music forward in their own unique way.
From legendary innovators to emerging mavericks, Paul dives into the intersection of music, creativity, and life, uncovering deep insights into the artistic process. His relaxed, open-ended approach allows guests to express themselves fully, offering an intimate perspective on the minds shaping contemporary sound.
Originally launched with support from Arts Council England, Lost and Sound has featured groundbreaking artists including Suzanne Ciani, Peaches, Laurent Garnier, Chilly Gonzales, Sleaford Mods, Nightmares On Wax, Graham Coxon, Saint Etienne, Ellen Allien, A Guy Called Gerald, Jean Michel Jarre, Liars, Blixa Bargeld, Hania Rani, Roman Flügel, Róisín Murphy, Jim O’Rourke, Yann Tiersen, Thurston Moore, Lias Saoudi (Fat White Family), Caterina Barbieri, Rudy Tambala (A.R. Kane), more eaze, Tesfa Williams, Slikback, NikNak, and Alva Noto.
Paul Hanford is a writer, broadcaster, and storyteller whose work bridges music, culture, and human connection. His debut book, Coming to Berlin, is available in all good bookshops.
Lost and Sound is for listeners passionate about electronic music, experimental sound, and the people redefining what music can be.
Lost And Sound
Cristobal Tapia de Veer
Cristobal Tapia de Veer on instinct, tension, and walking away from The White Lotus
It‘s not often I have a guest on the show primarily known for scorring for screen but the outspoken, punk-rock ethosed, voice-warping composer Cristobal Tapia de Veer is so Lost and Sound it hurts.
Whether it’s the unnerving soundworld of Utopia, the chaotic beauty of The White Lotus, or the warped voices of A24‘s Babygirl, his scores don’t just sit behind the picture—they shape how you feel it.
In this conversation, we talk about how some of his most striking ideas come in a flash. How one of The White Lotus‘ most memoral earworms: “took me the time it takes you to listen to it,” he says. “I feel like somebody else did it for me.”
We get into why scoring the show felt like “trying on a yellow dress,” and how stepping into unfamiliar territory let him bring something raw and unexpected to it. He’s honest about how uncomfortable that space was—and how that discomfort helped him land something sharper.
Cristobal opens up about working in an industry that often pulls in the opposite direction of intuition. We talk about trusting the subconscious, letting go of control, and how stepping back sometimes allows something better to come through.
We also touch on his recent public split from The White Lotus—and the bigger questions that come when creativity and power don’t align.
If you’re interested in how a politically minded Iggy Pop fan became one of the most highly revered film and TV composers working right now, or just curious about what it takes to stay true to your instincts inside a system that often doesn’t want you to, this one’s worth your time.
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Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica
My BBC World Service radio documentary “The man who smuggled punk rock across the Berlin Wall” is available now on BBC Sounds. Click here to listen.
My book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culturet Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
okay. So if I say to you what is the earworm that you've got right at the moment, I do apologize about asking that and I'm sorry if it's giving you back something that maybe you've an earworm that you've been trying to shrug off for a while. Um, for me, my guest on lost in sound today is the person responsible for the earworm I've had for quite a few months now, and it's actually one that I'm really really happy to have. So anyway, yes, lost in Sound is back. How are you? It's great to be back with you.
Speaker 1:This week's conversation is a bit of a special one. It's a deep, raw and at times, totally unexpected chat with one of the most original composers working in film and tv right now. But before we get going, lost and sound is sponsored by audio technica, a global but family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones. They make studio quality yet affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to AudioTechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Okay, so here we go. Thank you, hello, and welcome to episode 169 of Lost in Sound. It's great to be back with you.
Speaker 1:I'm Paul Hamford. I'm your host. I'm an author, a broadcaster and a lecturer. And if you're new to the show, lost in Sound is the podcast where each week I chat with an artist who works outside the box from global icons to trailblazing outsiders and emerging innovators. We talk music, creativity and the ways this all connects to life, and today's guest is someone who absolutely works outside the box. He's a composer who's just got this incredible ability to elevate and transform a show. If you've watched any of the three seasons so far of white lotus, you'll know exactly what I mean. Christabel tapia devere.
Speaker 1:Now, his score was such an intrinsic part of the show's identity to me it felt sometimes like a character in the show. Other times, and many times, it seemed to do a lot of the heavy lifting for for the drama and the comedy, the theme, which got reinterpreted a bit with each season, sort of became iconic, got remixed and reinterpreted by djs around the world. Even tiesto dropped an official remix of the season two theme, which is, if you've not heard it, as you'd imagine, it's for a very, very, very, very, very big room. So I fell in love with the music to the show. But it's not the first time that devere has rewritten the rules of what you expect for for music, for tv and film. You might remember the mind-bending score he did for the show Utopia Completely groundbreaking, and it created a real juxtaposition to what was an occasionally terrifying show. He's also scored the Crimson Petal and the White National Treasure. He's worked on Black Mirror and more recently moved into films with Baby Girl, the Steamy A24, nicole Kidman Harris Dickinson film and both Smile films. Born in Chile and based in Canada, I think he's one of the most interesting and individual composers working today.
Speaker 1:Now, okay, so here we go. You might have seen recently a month or so ago, it was in the New York Times, amongst places that there's been a big public falling out between Christabel and the White Lotus creator, mike White, and, yeah, it did come up in our conversation. I asked him what happened and Christabel was incredibly open and frank about this, in fact, so open and frank that I had to make the decision to cut out a section of our chat, and that wasn't something I took lightly to do. And I'm just being frank with you and I feel I owe it to Christobal to explain this as well that he made some allegations and, while I absolutely sympathise with what he said. I'm just not in a position, being a one-person independent operation, to navigate the potential legal complexities of putting out, well, what he said. So, anyway, I sat on it for a while and part of me did think I just fuck it, paul, just put it out. Just put it out, you know, because at the heart of what he alleges, I think it's something that I think many of us can connect with the of an individual artist navigating a power balance with big media players and it also made me reflect on what it actually takes legally, financially, emotionally, to publish a scoop as an independent creator. So, yes, the conversation, which is quite a long conversation anyway, is, you know, I had to chop this bit out, so just being transparent with you, but what you have is still gold. Christopher is a fascinating guy. He's passionate, he's honest and it's clear from the first minute of the conversation that you're about to hear that he approaches his work as an artist first and foremost.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, before we dive in, lost and sound is a completely independent podcast. I'm super lucky, as you know, to have the support of audio technica as my sponsors, which makes it possible for me to bring these conversations to you. But I do. I write record, edit research and promote the whole thing myself. So, if you like it, you know what to do. Follow the show, share it with a friend, support the artists, give the show a rating and a review on spotify, amazon, apple or wherever else. You listen it. It really, really, really really does help build the show and I appreciate every listen. So, anyway, back to the conversation. We had this conversation on Monday, the 28th of April 2025. And this is what happened when I met Christabel Tapia De Vere Great to chat to you. How are you doing? I'm good, crazy times around here.
Speaker 1:Where actually are you. Are you in Quebec?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm north of Montreal. So yeah, in the forest.
Speaker 1:Right, I've seen, by the look of it, the studio behind you. I've seen that on some of your social media. It seems like a pretty cool place. How long have you had that for?
Speaker 2:social media. It seems like a pretty cool place. Uh, how long have you had that for? Uh, I've been here for like three years and uh, so I've been building the studio for for a bit now and uh, so I mean I, the building was done, but uh, you know, preparing, installing cables and gear and all that stuff, I don't have that much time, so doing everything myself is very long.
Speaker 1:Right, so it's a bit of a labour of love, yeah, yeah, okay Well, thanks so much for chatting with me today. It's really great to talk to you, and I don't often feature people on the show who are primarily known for scoring. And I don't often feature people on the show who are primarily known for scoring. Often more it's artists who are kind of primarily known for releasing albums and EPs as their sort of main vessel. And I think partly it's because and without wanting to get a lot of hate mail from from scorers no-transcript visuals a lot of the time, and I think it kind of fits.
Speaker 2:It kind of fits with the news. Actually, yes, it does, definitely. You know, I don't. I don't see a difference in, uh, you know, I don't see a difference between I don't know, I'm just talking for myself, but I feel like an artist is somehow the way you are every day, informs, the way you create.
Speaker 2:And if every day, you are someone who, uh, is like, uh, have a cooperative mind and uh, you know, are very square and and blah, blah and so on, then I don't see how your music could be the Stooges, you know.
Speaker 2:Or I don't think you can be Tom Waits making albums, and then you're actually, you know, you work at Apple in some department, you know, executive mind, but, like you said, the subservient thing. I feel like this is what is expected from a composer and I can understand somehow the reasons. But the thing is, if results are more important, then I think people need to relax a bit with artists and let artists be artists, because it does make a huge difference in the results and they want that, they ask for that, they call me for that. It's just that you know yeah, I don't know how to put it in another way that they need to understand that they're dealing with artists who are giving them something. You know, that is a little more than what's expected from somebody who's just doing a job, so yeah, yeah, I mean you seem very comfortable in the way you talk about that.
Speaker 1:Have you always felt comfortable in putting yourself across as an artist in the world of scoring?
Speaker 2:No, there's ups and downs. Um, I suppose at the beginning it was maybe a bit harder, in the sense that when people don't know you, then they expect something to be a certain way. But you know, with time and awards and whatnot and stuff that somehow give you a certain recognition and all that, then I suppose people are more willing to work with you. But it's still, it's obviously it can get still complicated and, yeah, it can be a tough process, but it can be really rewarding also because you're breaking some walls and changing little things here and there. It's a very rewarding thing, even though it can be hard on the nerves sometimes. But it reflects a little bit the work, you know, of trying to change things about music, about the way I work and try to go further than I've been before and things like that.
Speaker 2:There's a certain battle there, a personal battle. So I think it's kind of normal that that could show up in many places in life outside of just making music in my studio. But you know, I need a certain minding to do the things I need to do musically and I think it's just normal that those things follow me in everyday life things. So I'm not ready to be, you know a lawyer by day who makes music at night. I don't think that works. There's people who are kind of like that. Certainly this business asks for that, for you to be a lawyer but I personally don't like that much the results of those kinds of minds.
Speaker 2:I'm inspired by other things, like Iggy Pop and rock, and you know rock bands dangerous bands that you know don't exist anymore because everything with time has turned into tiny corporations. A punk band today has accounts in Panama and whatnot, and they all look, I don't know not to judge too much, but I feel like danger is certainly being erased from music very much, even if you're a punk band. So imagine a composer and I don't feel like we progress very much. I think it's basically regression. I think we're not going into a direction of opening our minds and, you know, connecting with nature and this, and that we're being pushed into the opposite. I think AI is part of that opposite.
Speaker 2:I think AI is part of that, you know it's the next step from smartphones that makes us stupid, and AI is going to be the next step, where you know people completely get deleted and lose all you know personal creativity and things like that. So, yeah, I'm not ready to give up personally very eloquently described.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I sense that in all levels of creativity there is this I think you know everyone listening as well who is creative and, uh, everyone who uses kind of a form of creativity, even if they're not, uh like, a creative person by trade, uh experiences like this sort of threshold that seems to be pushing people more back into like a, a uniform way of doing things and, um, the, the resistance to that. Like you know, art has always challenged boundaries and a lot, lot, like you mentioned Iggy Pop, a lot of the great art is always, when it comes out, isn't considered at all.
Speaker 1:You know how does that square it for you as an artist? Like an artist has obviously got thinks about this a lot, this obviously feels a lot of empathy and a lot of empathy and, uh, a lot of conscience and can see what you see. How does that um affect? I mean, particularly because you know we're talking about this year, where it seems that every week things slip more and more like they get, they become, go more and more into a fast forward zone, into this, this, uh, what looks like fascist reality, like um. For, as an artist yourself, how does that impact on on you and your, your creativity? What is the worth of creativity in in a climate like this? What is what is the worth of working commercially in a creative way in a climate like this?
Speaker 2:the worth of working commercially in a creative way in a climate like this. So there's always the point of it's a little bit like Twitter, like you could say okay, we're all leaving Twitter because of what we know about Twitter and this and that. But then at some point I saw some people like you know, the director from this movie, don't Look Up he left and then he came back and he came back and he said something like I can't remember exactly, but he said, like you know, if all the good people leave, I'm going to call it the good people, whatever, that is, people who are not fascist, let's say. And then they have the place for themselves, like they can sell whatever. People who don't know any better, they go there and they think that's reality. People who don't know any better they go there and they think that's reality. And then you know young boys. They go there and they think that, you know, women have to be submitted and it's all right if you punch them in the face from time to time. This is basically Twitter without us. Let's say and so is that a good idea to leave, to not be part of the mainstream? Let's say, if we talk about the mainstream and commercial stuff and all that. If you think only, let's say, about children's educations, then I don't think that's a good idea, because if there's nobody there and there's there's only like freaking Nazis and misogynists and whatnot then that's going to be the next generation instructed not to dig any deeper. They're deleting all the places to dig deeper about history, about anything, and so if there's nobody there but these people, then there's a total brainwash and that would be, you know, pretty dark. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:From one side, I'm happy to be in the country. I have my apartment in Montreal, but I'm mainly in the woods and I could just, you know, have fun here and make my music and don't care about anything, and make weird stuff and put it on the internet and don't care. I'm pretty comfortable. You know I don't have to run after jobs, but I feel like art is in one way or another political and when you get feedback, so much feedback from people that say to you how what you did help them in one way or another, emotionally, creatively or whatnot, and I suppose it makes a lot of sense when you get this connection with people, because that's the only reason I feel to do this, the awards and all of that.
Speaker 2:You know it's fun, it's all right. It's only that I know what the system is. I know that they love you one day and they put you in the trash can the next. So I was never like. This is my reality. All these arts, this is, you know, people are so marvelous and this business it's so this and that it's just fun. I would say that's a fun thing and it's cool. You know that. But as far as the art goes for me, it's the people who write and send me videos of themselves and whatnot, and just they talk to you and they say how you change something for them for the better, and that is why we do do this. I think yeah yeah, yeah, completely.
Speaker 1:I mean, um, like the. You know that you, earlier on, you mentioned about like. When we're talking about the white lotus, about how you developed a relationship with, with the people, like the, the audience, and like the development. It become personal for you in terms of like the audience and like the development. It become personal for you in terms of like the making of the music. In fact, I got the sense of like you'd found a space within the architecture and the audience and, like my girlfriend, we love the music and you know we'll put it on and she's tapping her toe and you know she was like you've got to speak to this guy. This, this music's amazing and, um, I, in terms of that public kind of feedback to the music, is that something that's hard to leave behind or is that something that you feel? You know I, you know you're, you're happy with your, you know you did what you did.
Speaker 2:I mean, for me it's a relief because the show is really not me. What is me as far as this show, business stuff is everything else, but this show, actually All the movies that I've been doing whenever I had the time in these last couple of years I did movies and those are the important stuff for me and every project that I've done before this. Because the thing is, this show if you just check my catalog, let's say, and you see everything that I've done until this year, there is absolutely nothing like this show. This reality TV kind of thing, light comedy, is really not my thing, really not my thing. It has nothing to do with Black Mirror or Utopia or humans or Smile or even Baby Girl or Ponyboy or anything. And so what was interesting for me about the show is that it was like trying, you know, trying trying a yellow dress, where you know this is really not my thing. That's exactly what happened. And he was like, okay, can I pull this off, can I pull this yellow dress and go to a party? And you know, just try it. And then, and so that's what happened is that you know, at first we had a talk with Mike about what to do with the music, and we agreed on something that is unexpected, which you know, something really kind of dark and scary and blah, blah and so on, the whole Hitchcock, hawaiian, whatever. And so that was the plan and I thought, okay, maybe I can find my place in this world. I'm curious about this world. I have no idea about this. I have no idea about any reality TV ever. Uh, and this, this is, this is different. I mean, it's not the Kardashians, but it's. It's it's still for that kind of crowd. Uh, and it was well well written. So it was a chance for to try something like that.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I could do, uh, you know, some darker, edgier kind of thing, which is what I'm comfortable doing. And so I got away with doing stuff like that, even though it was more. It was maybe a little too much in times for the people I was working with and all that. But the only reason for me to keep doing that is because I was achieving that in some manner and I wasn't interested in doing anything softer or compromising what I was doing. All that, because then the show has no interest to me. Uh, it's not my world and I don't really like these characters, but I like working with them. Uh, as far as the music, uh, as far as I, what I can bring out of them to me is what really helped the satire of it, because the satire is pretty light, I'm going to say, in the show, and I think the heavier music made the satire more uh, prominent, uh, in many ways. So that's what I uh, that's how I found my little comfort being uh in this band.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna say yeah but, uh, otherwise, um, I'm still in a party with people that I don't understand. I don't dress like them, the stuff they talk about I don't know. I don't play golf, I'm not. You know all that shit. This is really not me.
Speaker 2:You know, I want to go to a party where I belong, so it was just a natural thing for me to leave, and now I'm happy to, to be back in a place where I have the time to pick just the stuff that I relate to and that has some kind of concern for you know, this planet, or you know humans or people that seem more human to me, that you know are less monstrous and in, yeah, stuff like that. So I suppose, for this part of the population that know me, maybe only because of the White Lotus, and so they see a different reality from what my reality is really, because the people who know me from Utopia or whatever project, Black Mirror or whatever that was they have a completely different image of what I do. And you know, it's just I'm going to say that's more my crowd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, but I love what you're saying there. Like, I have to admit, I did love White Lotus, but I also sort of feel that, you know, I I first heard of you through utopia and I I feel like what you're saying about the party is that when you, when, like you're at a party like that, you try to find the other person there that also is going why the fuck am I here? And like, I think, in some ways, what in some ways? Like watching White Lotus for me, loving it, but sort of being around characters that, like, are so removed from my life.
Speaker 1:You know, the music was the thing was, was that person that I would, I have a familiarity with first, like ah, I'm hearing it through the music because that is the person that I know, that under you know, that has the same music interests of me, that has the same sort of outlook as me. You know we're both the people here that are going why the fuck are you? What the fuck are you doing here? Yeah, yeah, I mean. So, you know, going back to utopia, I mean that was such a crystallising moment of hearing music. At the time I wasn't familiar with the stuff you do with the voice, these motifs that you use and the percussion that you use in different forms and different scores. So when I first heard that, you know it filled me with this sort of idea of like warp music from the 90s and like sort of very sort of like you know, minimalism and all these sorts of things. You know, when you think back to that, like what was your kind of inspiration for Utopia?
Speaker 2:Musically there was not much, because I was finding things simply by the way some instruments sound and then making you know, trying weird things in the wrong places. For example, I think there was a point where we really connected with the director is when I did this Brazilian kind of rhythm which is the Utopia theme. But I did it for a scene where, you know, there's this guy who was tortured and he was missing an eye. He couldn't see, but he managed to grab a gun and he was trying to escape his torture. And then the way they interact, the two of them, it looked like a dance to me. It's almost like we're dancing and it's very stylizedized, this show and the way things look and all that. So there was an opportunity for kind of make them look like they are actually dancing.
Speaker 2:The music is kind of it sounds really weird. So you're not thinking like Latin American music at all, but it has that swinging, you know, kind of Brazilian samba thing going on and this is kind of stuff that you gamble, you get stressed out because you know it's weird, it's probably not going to work, and this and that you show it and you hope for the best. But uh, this guy, the director. He, uh, mark munden, he uh, he just started like dancing in his chair, he was watching, he was absorbed into, into the scene and so that was an incredible surprise, and moments like that is why I do this job.
Speaker 2:More than anything, it's because you find something weird that is not supposed to work, but then it works and it justifies lots of things about life itself and you get a connection, through something so weird, with somebody else that is completely different from you and the product is really rich, it's very dimensional, it has depth, it's more than there's two guys fighting and so I'm going to put some action music in there, put some synths, and it could be that, you know, utopia could have been something like that and it would be okay. You know, it would work. It's just that these accidents are the main reason for me to do this job. So that's how Utopia, you know, kind of got into that direction with the precautions and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I mean because your scores very rarely guide the viewer in an obvious way. Is there something I mean? I'm sure you could very easily just maybe there are sort of certain times where you think, okay, this is just just like. You know, this is a thriller scene, you know this has to have tense music, or this is a romantic scene, or this is a sort of an intriguing scene. That's tough. This do you is. Does it sort of feel like it's a very natural thing for you to uh be inquisitive and play till you find you've got something that hits a mark with you?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I suppose it depends on the project and whatnot, but, um, uh, I'm mainly always looking for that spark which is unexpected. I'm looking for some kind of surprise, a surprising sound maybe. Once I have that idea or that sound, then I can follow that like follow the rabbit, and then, when that happens, it becomes a lot of fun and it becomes easier the to work because I'm following, uh, that, um, how you say, uh, I have some clues, uh, to follow, you know, in my detective journey of finding, you know, the movie. Um, so, yeah, I'm looking for the eccentric thing.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm looking for the eccentric thing, maybe because that connects me in a cosmic way to the subject, which is not direct which is not obvious, and so I don't know, it makes me happier Ultimately, ultimately, for some reason, yeah, and do you have a piece of music in a score that you've done that makes?
Speaker 2:you the most happy. Uh, there's so many. Uh, it's generally generally little things, because I don't, I don't watch, I don't't like watching stuff that I've done the movies I enjoy more going to the cinema, to the theater, and for some reason I enjoy that a little bit more. But it's still hard for me to listen to stuff that I've done in the past. I'm generally not very happy about anything.
Speaker 2:For example, I think the I don't know, like the second theme, season two of the White Lotus. It's just a silly track which I kind of like in the sense that if you know I'm dancing, if I go to the club, or I did that in that frame of mind where you know I was kind of dancing and doing that. So it's fine, fine, it's cool and everything. But if I have to compare uh, uh, I'm gonna say the, the new theme, the third theme, uh, season, the voice, that melody, that weird melody that makes me happy to the point where I did like an hour mix that I put on YouTube, which is only the voice. I had to do so many versions of that. I have like whatever, a ton of versions. But that voice makes me happy for various reasons I think. You know it's mysterious, interesting and all that, but it's because I did it to make that melody.
Speaker 2:It took me the time that it takes you to listen to it. I put my hands on the keyboard while that voice is playing and I played those notes once and that's that. And then I loved that and I just kept listening because it was so weird that's not a good word, but mysterious. You know, it's like it's really it's like something coming out of the woods and I don't know exactly how it works or you know it's really it's hard to sing, uh and all that things. Um, and because I did it so fast, I feel like it's not me. I feel like, how did that happen? Like I feel like somebody else did it for me. It's it's much easier to listen to somebody else than somebody. That's something I'm doing because I'm I'm a really harsh critic of anything that I'm doing and I trash it right away and I tend to delete things and whatnot. But when it's this fast and this spontaneous, then it's like it was somebody else.
Speaker 2:I think, that's important for me and I can really appreciate that. And the lack of control, it's really really important. It's like, you know, if I was doing a modern painting, where you know you're barely controlling the brush and it's kind of happening and you're kind of guiding, you know, in a very uncontrolling way, just letting things happen. And that's the good sound, that that's a sound for me whenever you manage to let something happen and I'm not controlling and not being a dictator artist and things like that.
Speaker 2:So there's no second guessing yeah and um, I just think it sounds better. Stuff that you keep working forever perfecting. I don't think it sounds very good. It always ends up sounding congested or I don't know.
Speaker 1:It sounds like effort. It sounds like effort.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like effort. It sounds like effort. Yeah, it sounds like calculations, and you know, the despairing need to follow something up. Yeah, it's too conscious. I think the good stuff is hiding in the subconscious. Stuff is hiding in the the subconscious and that stuff when you grab it you kind of have to be a vessel or just let it happen and don't touch it. Uh, the subconscious stuff is is a good stuff yeah, yeah, and that requires a sorry.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I didn't mean to cut it no, no, go ahead I think that requires to a certain extent not always, but sometimes more of like a, you know, a letting go of the ego. You have to be able to just sort of not even be too involved with it, like you know you don't. You don't want to sort of chop and tail it too much afterwards, it's just that's what it is. It's almost like saying, okay, you did this, that your part in it is now finished.
Speaker 2:Once I talked to a director. I was at the Miami Film Festival and there was this director from Montreal who had this amazing movie there and I was talking to him and he said about the composer, about working with music and movies and working with a composer. He said I don't have to like the music and I was like, wow, that now that is incredible. That is really incredible because it's somehow related to what we were saying, you know, of letting things happen. And there's also something about the fact that if somebody, if an artist, gives you something and you don't react right away to it, it doesn't mean that's not the right thing and it doesn't mean that it's not good. It just means that you maybe need some time to get to you know, to evolve and to maybe understand it tomorrow or maybe a week, you don't know. Yeah, so in this business, it's mainly if you give something to someone, it's going to be they have to react right away to it. You know we like it or not, and that's it. And if we, if we don't like it, that is not the right thing, but I think that's wrong.
Speaker 2:I feel if we're really in a schedule, like you know, you had to do a score in one week or whatever, then that's different. That's something else than anything goes. You know you have to go with the flow and make things happen. But if you have like a normal amount of time, I think a little more effort should happen in the creative space where if an idea comes in from any department, you know if you have hired someone that because of their talent and reputation and you know you've seen what they've done in the past and all that. Then maybe you know there should be a little buffer, or to some you know evolving and maybe you know thinking about things before you know rejecting anything, because if it's only about what you like, then I don't know. I think it's kind of narrow. I've seen visionaries like really amazing people who are good at at something in a department that you know they would benefit to trusting a little more, of the composer, for example.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because music is just not their thing. All they have it. Not their thing, all they have is their taste. And like director Mark Mundin, again from Utopia, said to me, you know everybody speaking about, you know producers and executives, you know everybody has an opinion about clothes and music because it's part of your life and all that, and because it's everywhere and it's part of your life then does that mean that you could basically go out in the street and ask somebody do you like this t-shirt for this character? And they want to say, no, you should change it. I mean, it's the exact same thing.
Speaker 2:At some point, if you really don't have vision for the music, for example, maybe trust somebody else and maybe in a couple of days you're going to get it. It's like, okay, this music is a little weird, but actually it really helps bring some depth to this situation. You know, um, maybe you're missing something. Uh, you were just weirded out by some, some music you heard and you're not going to use it because, uh, you know, that is just your personal taste it's not just about, like the composer, the person making the music, actually making the music.
Speaker 1:It's about trusting the person that makes the music to understand what music can do, you know, and that sometimes takes a couple of days, like sometimes takes sometimes a few years, for people to understand, you know. It's about giving the composer or you in any kind of form of art, in that kind of category, the the space to sort of say I'm not just the person that, like, technically makes it, I'm also the person that sort of suggests how something can work with music. Do, do you mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and, and I mean, uh, so if I'm a painter, and, and, and you tell me a story and I do a painting based on that story, then you're, what you're looking at is, uh, my filters. Basically, this is what I'm getting from your story. Um and uh, it could be surprising, because people are so different. And the thing is, if you're a musician, you know how to connect with people. If you have been on stage, you know how you understand the telepathy that happens with people. You know when you're losing people in the middle of a show and it's time to not do the next track on the set list but we're going to jump to this other track. Nobody has said anything, you just know it.
Speaker 2:You have a connection with people through music, through music, and so this is just an example. But, and so if you're a specialist of that, then maybe you know something that the other people there who are who this is not their specialty they're not aware of, and I think that's why maybe you have to trust a little bit the people you hire, and you know so many reasons. I mean, if you're a musician, then that means that you spend most of your life concentrating on nothing but the music and you listen to a lot of stuff and you're focusing on that and this is like your superpowers and somebody else who has, you know, 1% of their time to put into that, then I don't know. Of course you need to trust, you know the doctor, but because the doctor is a doctor and this and that, but at some point maybe you're going to learn that the pharmacist actually has a lot more knowledge of medication.
Speaker 2:So if you go to the pharmacy with the doctor's prescription, then the pharmacist he's allowed to actually give you a barrier prescription because he knows more actually of medication, because that's his speciality, and the doctor has a limited amount of time compared to the pharmacist. So, uh, you know there has to be some, uh, you know, a tiny respect, uh, or open mind. Is that you know you might be wrong about something? Uh, or you're not just ready for that idea?
Speaker 1:uh, things like that yeah, and, and just finally, what? What would you tell your younger, younger self? Uh, when you were just setting out making music, um, what, what would you sort of now, looking back, what would be the kind of guiding principle you would want to instill a new, younger self?
Speaker 2:I don't know, it depends on the days Right now. I would say, maybe keep your mask on more often. People are not ready for Iggy Pop all the time, or whoever. People live with masks way more than artists do and as a way of protecting yourself, maybe keep the mask on unless you know you are with a bunch of artists and you were protected. You know you're safe.
Speaker 2:I've come to understand that people who are not artistic, they're like a different, almost a different species, and it's very hard to. Maybe there's a Buddhist thing where you need to have. You know, we all need to have more compassion for how different we are. You know, non-artists with artists, anti-artists with non-artists, and so maybe that way we get to have more respect for each other. But we tend to ridicule each other and so if I'm feeling ridiculed, then I'm going to ridicule you and that doesn't end well. You know that's just war and it's as stupid as it can get. It doesn't lead anywhere. So, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:So this weird thing that you see in politics, because people like Musk or you know people in power, ceos and all that it's easy to say that they are very much into artists. You know they get married to artists. They want to get close to artists, to painters, to musicians, to whatever. They seem to really admire something about that. But they seem so jealous and whenever they get rejected, like I'm going to say, for example, if you take, uh, I don't know, just to push an example, uh, over the top, if you take, like, you know the way trump supporters feel, uh, criticized by whatever leftists or you know, know about culture, about this and that, and blah, blah. So I can imagine how that feels diminishing to them when people are being arrogant. But how to get out of that, I don't know. It's hard because they are being really disrespectful and they're being really hateful and aggressive about it.
Speaker 2:So, uh, you know putting, if somebody slaps you, you just give the other cheek that jesus think, yeah, that's very hard. That's I don't know how to do that. I wish I I did. You know I I'm so, I'm not advanced like that. I wish I had that talent. I tend to strike back fire against fire and that I don't know how to deal with that. But I would tell if I have to start again, maybe, you know, try to find a way not to hit back or whatever. Find another way, because people who are hateful and that are mean and abusive. You know that's, I don't know. What can you do? How much do you want to help them? How? You know? How understanding can you be? At some point it feels like maybe the only thing to do is just leave as far away as possible. But maybe you can't. Maybe you need to be in a place where you work with these people, and some of them are great and some of them are not.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, it's tough it is, and then sometimes these people exist in different ways within the communities that we don't think that they would be in as well. You know there's a yeah yeah, christo, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciated it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:OK, so that was me, paul Hanford, talking with Christobal Tapia-Devere for Lost in Sound podcast, and we had that chat on Monday, the 28th of April 2025. Thank you so so much, Christabel, for sharing your time and thoughts with me there. I really really appreciate it. And if you're interested in exploring Christabel's music further, his scores are available across all major streaming platforms Apple, tidal, all of that bunch and if you haven't already hit, subscribe and give lost and sound a rating and a review on the platform of your choice. It really, really, really really does help. And if you like what you hear and you want to check out more of my stuff, you can go and check out my bbc radio documentary the man who smuggled punk rock across the berlin wall, by heading on over to the bbc sounds app or on the bbc world service home page, and my book coming to berlin is still available in independent bookshops or via the publisher's website, velocity press.
Speaker 1:Lost and sound is sponsored by audio technica, the global but family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones. They're making the headphones that I'm speaking to you right now in. They made the microphone that you heard me do the interview in. They're friggin awesome. So go over to audiotechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. And yeah, tom giddens is the person that does the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of the show, and so, yeah, that's it. I hope, whatever you're doing today, you're having a really lovely one. Take care, and I'll chat to you soon, thank you.