Lost And Sound
Lost and Sound is a podcast exploring the most exciting and innovative voices in underground, electronic, and leftfield music worldwide. Hosted by Berlin-based writer Paul Hanford, each episode features in-depth, free-flowing conversations with artists, producers, and pioneers who push music forward in their own unique way.
From legendary innovators to emerging mavericks, Paul dives into the intersection of music, creativity, and life, uncovering deep insights into the artistic process. His relaxed, open-ended approach allows guests to express themselves fully, offering an intimate perspective on the minds shaping contemporary sound.
Originally launched with support from Arts Council England, Lost and Sound has featured groundbreaking artists including Suzanne Ciani, Peaches, Laurent Garnier, Chilly Gonzales, Sleaford Mods, Nightmares On Wax, Graham Coxon, Saint Etienne, Ellen Allien, A Guy Called Gerald, Jean Michel Jarre, Liars, Blixa Bargeld, Hania Rani, Roman Flügel, Róisín Murphy, Jim O’Rourke, Yann Tiersen, Thurston Moore, Lias Saoudi (Fat White Family), Caterina Barbieri, Rudy Tambala (A.R. Kane), more eaze, Tesfa Williams, Slikback, NikNak, and Alva Noto.
Paul Hanford is a writer, broadcaster, and storyteller whose work bridges music, culture, and human connection. His debut book, Coming to Berlin, is available in all good bookshops.
Lost and Sound is for listeners passionate about electronic music, experimental sound, and the people redefining what music can be.
Lost And Sound
Lyra Pramuk
We’re living in fractured times. What can art really offer us? Lyra Pramuk’s powerful new album Hymnal might just offer a clue — not through escapism or easy answers, but by embracing contradiction and carving out sonic spaces where new ways of being can start to take root.
I visited Lyra at her studio in Berlin to talk about the making of what could be one of the most bold and affecting records of the year. Building on the foundation of her acclaimed 2020 debut Fountain, she’s taken things somewhere even more unflinching — a place of dissonance, grief, ritual, and surprising beauty. Hymnal isn’t here to soothe; it mirrors the complexity of the world around us, while still offering room to breathe and imagine something different.
What’s remarkable is how central collaboration is to this work. There’s Berlin’s Sonar Quartet, whose strings thread through the record with a kind of aching elegance. But perhaps most unexpected is her partnership with a slime mold — yes, a slime mold — whose movements across poetic maps helped shape the flow of her vocal improvisations. It’s as wild as it sounds, and just as moving.
Our conversation drifts through everything from the spiritual and physical labour of music-making to the poetic logic of electronic sound. Lyra shares thoughts on technology as an extension of our bodies (think spiders sensing the world through their webs), the limits of Cartesian mind-body dualism, and why electronic music can hold radical potential — not just as art, but as a way of reimagining how we live together. Where techno-capitalism demands hierarchy and separation, Hymnal offers something else: a kind of sacred entanglement between people, nature, and machines.
Listen to Lyra Pramuk’s music:
Listen to Hymnal (2025):
Spotify – Album Hymnal | Bandcamp – Hymnal
Follow Lyra Pramuk on Instagram:
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Thanks also to this episode’s sponsor, Audio-Technica – makers of beautifully engineered audio gear. Check them out here: Audio-Technica
Want to go deeper? Grab a copy of my book Coming To Berlin, a journey through the city’s creative underground, via Velocity Press.
And if you’re curious about Cold War-era subversion, check out my BBC documentary The Man Who Smuggled Punk Rock Across The Berlin Wall on the BBC World Service.
You can also follow me on Instagram at @paulhanford for behind-the-scenes bits, guest updates, and whatever else is bubbling up.
Hi, I'm Paul Hanford. Welcome to Lost in Sound, the podcast that gets deep and personal with artists shaping music and culture. Today I'm speaking to you sat outside a cafe in Kreuzberg in Berlin and it's a little bit overcast, but I'm really excited to share this conversation with you. You're about to hear an in-person chat I had with someone who's been on my radar to get on the show for several years now Lyra Pramuk, and it's a good'un. But before we get going, lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica, a global but family-run company that make headphones, microphones, turntables, cartridges. I've been genuinely using audio technica stuff ever since I used to be a little indie electronic musician back in the late 90s. They make studio quality yet affordable products because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to audio technicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. All right then, are you ready for the show? Thank you, hello, and welcome to episode 172 of Lost in Sound.
Speaker 1:I'm Paul Hamford, I'm your host, I'm an author, a broadcaster and a lecturer, and each week I have conversations with artists who work outside the box about music, creativity and how they're navigating life through their art and whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's good to have you along and lots of nice messages that I received about last week's show. That was, of course, the conversation with Bradley Zero, and I feel like there are emerging themes that are coming out naturally in a lot of the conversations that we're having on the show at the moment, and it seems to circle often down to this idea of asking what it means to be creative in such difficult times as we're going through at the moment. What is the role of music, what is the role of creativity, what is the role of listening to music, of making music, of being creativity in a world that just seems like it's falling apart, and that is something that certainly we go into in today's episode. It's not something that I feel like I have any answers for necessarily. I guess that's probably why I asked the questions, and you're about to hear a conversation I had with the vocalist, composer and producer, lyra Pramuk. Lyra is someone who I've been keen to get on the show for several years now and it finally happened, which I'm super happy about. She's someone that I've been keen to get on the show for several years now and it finally happened, which I'm super happy about. She's someone that really does have something to say, and if you're already a fan of her work, you'll know how central her voice is to what she does.
Speaker 1:Her 2020 debut album, fountain, was entirely made from vocal recordings, processed and shaped into something that managed to be both futuristic and deeply intimate, and along the way, she's collaborated with artists like Colin Self, holly Herndon and friend of Lost in Sound, katerina Barbieri, and become a key figure in conversations around queerness and experimental sound. She's part of a generation of artists using technology in a very personal way, not just as a tool, but as a space to explore identity and community. So she's got a new album coming out. We're talking album of the year contender. Definitely, I think so, definitely, yeah, it's what is it now? It's June Yep Album of the year contender, and it's called Hymnal, and woven in with her voice are a series of collaborations.
Speaker 1:Most immediately, orally, you will hear berlin's sonar quartet providing the strings that run through it, but there are other types of collaboration that we we talk about in this conversation, and this conversation we had in person at her studio in Berlin, and it's a good one, as always, if you're enjoying the show, the best way to support it is by subscribing rating, leaving a review on the platform of your choice, be that Spotify, amazon, apple, wherever the fuck else you listen to the show on, it really does help build the show. Apple, or wherever the fuck else you listen to the show on, it really does help build the show. Okay, so let's get into it. Um, we have this conversation in person on monday, june the 9th 2025. This is me talking with lyra pramukh. Lyra, thanks so much for inviting me into your studio today. Uh, so the album is out this week, at the end of this week, isn't it?
Speaker 2:That's right. Yes, it's out on June 13th, on Friday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how are you feeling about the album? How close are you to it still?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, that's. I mean that's kind of interesting, because I mean I think it's probably common knowledge that albums are produced and then there's like a longer period of like preparing a release and a campaign, yeah, uh. So I feel, on one hand, like very creatively ready for something else, because I've been working on this since August 2023 but there's this whole other phase where I'm like feeling really reconnected to the music again. In the last few months I've been touring the music already again and I just had like a preview listening session day here in Berlin with the music where I heard it on a hi-fi system and heard totally new things in the music. So it's kind of both things like um, like I'm feeling like distant, but also like we really reconnecting with it and in a way, at the same time, do you feel?
Speaker 1:um like. I feel like when people make music or do any kind of be creative project. There's different stages and they have to have, like a different, I guess, a different headset on. Do you feel like you're approaching the music now on hymnal in a way like that you didn't weren't approaching it when you were making it. Are you seeing it in a different way?
Speaker 2:I think I had a very conscious idea of what I wanted to do. It was like it was constructed, in a sense, it was like a concept album, and so I knew what I was setting out to do. Of course, the experience of it is always different, and the music is very surrealistic. It's very abstract, um, abstract and intentionally so that it could offer, like, multiple vantage points or perspectives, you know, on different lessons or in different rooms and different contexts, on different systems and for different people. Um, in the last couple of weeks, I'm experiencing the music through other people's ears and eyes as well, which is really interesting, um, and it feels to me like, like my, my last album, fountain from 2020.
Speaker 2:It was, I think, much easier of a journey. In a way. It was more um in a somatic sense, more restorative, more like, um, harmonic or smooth in a way, and I find this project has a lot more difficulty. In it. There's a lot more like grief and challenge, dissonance, complexity, layering, noise, and so I've I've felt different responses from people that are, uh, new, and it's new for me to associate that level of, like, depth or confusion or complexity with my own work, right, publicly, yeah, um, so that is. That's a really interesting part. But it feels, it feels right, it feels more authentic to my experience living in the world that we live in, right?
Speaker 1:OK, so you're talking about all of these sensations and feelings. You're talking about, like, both, the experience of listening to it and also, maybe, what you put into it as well listening to it and also maybe what you put into it as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think what you put into it becomes apparent in listening to it in different ways. One of my collaborators, my label partner, her brother, said he saw my concert in athens a few days ago and and said it sounds like the earth is moaning, right, okay. And I was like, oh, that's very interesting, you know, and I think I I feel like some of the maybe emotional impulses that brought me to create this work, and maybe what the work sounds like in a way, um, but also I would have never found those words and, and so I think it's it's really interesting for me to get feedback from people. I love to make work that is this like that is multiplicitous enough that people can really have their own experience or association with it. Yeah, and so I it feels very generative to me to hear people's thoughts about the work.
Speaker 1:I really enjoy that yeah, like it becomes something that is part of their lives as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:They have a response to yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean one of the like formative pieces of theory for me is that famous Susan Sontag essay Against Interpretation and the other on style.
Speaker 2:And I think essentially in Against Interpretation she's like arguing for artwork to be freed from like critical capture of language or labeling or description that description and critique and interpretation can like disingenuously damage or limit an artwork. And she's arguing for each you know spectator or viewer or listener to be free to have their own subjective experience you know with with an artwork. So really like a somatic, a personal experience with an artwork. And that's an idea that I've really like taken in as my own over the years to really explicitly not try to like over control what is what is happening and be really open actually to the experiences that people are having with the work. But I think it fundamentally also like kind of alters the way of what making something is as well, when you're not trying to dictate too much what it is that there is, there's still some like freedom and life in the in the thing yeah, do you feel like for you that that kind of process has taken a lot of time to get to?
Speaker 2:and I I understand um. I would paraphrase what my understanding of some of the core um spiritual philosophy of like Sufi Islam is like to experience the world and to experience oneself with depth and compassion and openness, to explore unknown terrain and to learn from that, to grow from that. And I think I try to approach anything that I do with a sense of discovery. That I might set out an idea, but it's it feels like part of my responsibility to protect the thing that I'm making to. I think Brian Eno talked about that gardening rather than architecting, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, that that it's. That it's. I'm listening, I'm like facilitating, going alongside it and really trying to understand what this thing is, kind of on its own, what it's emerging to be and to be like open and curious to discover what something is, even if I lay out like a plan. So it's really. It's really for me like a mixture of setting up a system, setting up a process that might also be complex, and then trying to accompany the process in a way that I'm being a good facilitator with the materials and really not trying to like dominate it yeah and be really open to what it feels like it's becoming right okay, so it's kind of like you're listening to yourself
Speaker 2:definitely, and I think that's, I think that's part of the magic of making electronic music is you can be in this like dialogic, like sensual, somatic relationship with, with the work that you're making. I think that's something very special about it, but it's I mean it's, it's also a principle of like improvised acoustic music, free jazz, you know, and like improvisation systems too, of like setting up systems, creating like maybe a bed or a system of sound and like like. I think it's probably the biggest misconception that improvisation is totally free. Of course there's like. There's like train tracks and it's like this vehicle that you have that allows you to be free as an improviser in a way. So I think that I think there is an analog also with different methods for like improvisation or like live writing of work. I also improvise a lot, yeah. So I think I think those things are very connected.
Speaker 1:For me there's so much you got to dig into there. But I think some of the things you were saying that I think I loved the way you're talking about, like you know, paraphrasing brianino and the gardening idea and talking about it like being a gardener and digging into some of the ideas that I've heard you know you talk about about hymnal, about this. I think there's a sense of something very pagan going on and you've spoken a little bit about questioning Western ideas of capitalism and feeding that into the work and I was wondering I feel like there's a little bit of a connection there between like your kind of like working processes and what you've spoken about here and I was wondering for you what that connection is with the album. You know how did that develop or how does it manifest?
Speaker 2:I think about a couple things. First of all, it's very easy when talking about like something like paganism that it becomes like political. Yeah, I think that I think that, like different paganistic religions around the world throughout history really developed as a result of being connected, to having gratitude for natural systems that actually, like, sustain our life and the environment that we're in. So it's like very practically, very simply, like a connection with the, the sun and the universe and the earth. Understanding that, like if the sun would go out, we would not be alive, understanding that if the forests and all of the creatures die, that we will not have much. In fact, from emotional connections to natural systems and paganism are also just pragmatic to sustain a life on this planet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I was seeing the other day that there's a lot of talk at the moment about the extinction of insects.
Speaker 1:The largest year of extinction of insects in the last 80 years, or or something I've seen this too yeah yeah, and then that connects with um, the capitalistic desire to like um, override any of these systems for profit. I mean, that's the most simplest way of doing it. I'm not the most articulate political thinker. I have a lot of thoughts, but, um, I think the people I speak with do the politics a lot better.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's what I think I feel like I I don't know I feel like we all, we all like are entitled to um need to feel, entitled to feel agency, to like define our own perspectives.
Speaker 2:I feel there's there's like a self-organizing, like anarchist undercurrent. I feel to what feels important to me, that there's like a pluralistic sense of possibility within a shared set of core values. It feels like that's what needs to happen in our society, that we need to be able to agree on some things, maybe, like murdering people in broad daylight or raping people is not maybe something that we need to be able to. To agree on some things, maybe, like murdering people in broad daylight or raping people is not maybe something that we want, um, for example, but that there is also room for people to practice different beliefs, belief systems, religious beliefs, and, and that we are able to um, um respect other people's difference and really show up and like, show curiosity for people's like systems and and to like be beholden enough to the mystery of the universe that we could be, um, maybe not even so sure of our own beliefs. Yeah, you know, and and just be a bit more humble.
Speaker 1:I would like that where do you think the uh, where do you think the tendency comes from for people to feel that they have to know stuff?
Speaker 2:I don't know, that's a big question, but I think, um, I think it's, I I mean, I understand it being very connected to the evolution of logic, philosophical thought, dynamics of power, patriarchy, western science that have been developing for thousands of years, most recently since the printing press, since the Enlightenment, since the modern scientific era, which I think has its own like. There is so much of like patriarchy, patriarchal principles, I think, embedded in the systems of knowledge which we are taught are objective, and I really don't think they are. I don't think they're objective. This, there's this way that people in power retain power, which is like to not speak about the ways that something is actually stylized or something is political, to make it seem transparent when it's actually not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how white supremacy functions. It's like, okay, we don't talk about whiteness, yeah, and so to talk about whiteness, um, threatens the power of white supremacists. It's a direct affront to white supremacy to name whiteness, to criticize it, to discuss it. I think it's a similar thing with science and philosophy, which have been, of course, very male male dominated for the last 500 years and even though there's been, you know, there's been much progress and in some, in some circles, I think that, like I'm. I'm a huge science person.
Speaker 1:I love science yeah, I mean, I think it's very clear. I just want to say we're not talking about like discrediting the idea of knowledge.
Speaker 2:Not at all, not at all not at all, but I think I maybe that's a good time to reference the other suntag essay I mentioned on style, which is like she. She criticizes, for example, richard wagner and, uh, camus. Yeah, both, both are people who who claim to have like a kind of like I don't know natural wagner, on the one hand, like um natural or like regular style yeah, germanic mythical something romantic, normal, the romantic kind of artist yeah, something almost, almost, as though this is like not stylized, right, she's criticizing them, also for camus of having this like very blank, very clean, very white.
Speaker 2:That's this, this idea that like there's like a lack of style or like a naturalness, um, and she, she paints the picture really beautifully, criticizes very beautifully. You know these are, these are still very constructed stylistically. You could document um a style guideline for the style of wagner or camus, put it into an ai model and it could generate it. So they're actually very constructed. Yeah, this is what I'm saying about science. It's, it's very constructed the, the modalities, the, the philosophical, religious, uh, underpinnings that make up the systems of knowledge that we produce. They were produced in patriarchy, so of course they have these underpinnings, meta-level dynamics that don't really make space for different indigenous or pre-colonial ideologies, for example, other languages or ways of thinking about systems, or even sometimes integrations with other disciplines or with it's. It's you think about, like in medieval Islam. This like great, like what became the Western Renaissance, really came from medieval Islam, and what I find so fascinating about that period is it was holistic. You had music connected to mathematics, connected to philosophy, literature, poetry, horticulture. It was all connected and so it was like a holistic idea of knowledge that was integrated with nature and with the world, but also with many other disciplines, and that's why it was so generative and so magnificent, because there were all of these interrelations and discoveries by having disciplines actually connected with each other, like, my problem with science now is it feels very disconnected from everything else, and so it's really hard, for example, I think with most people to like really paint a picture of like what we're discovering about quantum physics and understand how that's connected to art. For me. I wrote a piece for Manchester Collective Instrumental Ensemble that was trying to embody some things that I had learned about quantum physics in a musical process, in a compositional process, and so these are some of the things I think about.
Speaker 2:It's actually much more interesting for me that things are connected, that you can have different language to understand things you know, and that it, um, it feels to me like a lot of, a lot of like western knowledge is, um, very siloed, very disconnected from other things, uh, controlled, and that there's very little room for magic in it. You know, and and um, another book my friend turned me on to I've not read the whole thing, but it's really wonderful. It's called Technic and Magic by this Italian philosopher, campagna, and he lays out a system of. Like you know, philosopher campagna, and he lays out a system of, like you know, we live in technic. It's like a, it's like a technological um world system. It's like totalizing.
Speaker 2:Everything is seen in terms of being measured and understood, for some like um objective material value or something, but there's a whole world of magic, there is a whole system of magic that has existed also throughout human culture that we've kind of lost touch with. So it's like, really like a philosophical sensory dilemma that we have lost the ability to feel magic and wonder and awe, or even like spiritual connection with the universe that we're in, with the reality that we inhabit. It's become overly objective, objective to a degree that is not authentic, actually, I think to like lived human experience and it's so interesting what you're saying.
Speaker 1:I my um just jumping totally off script here, but, like in response to something that you said about the, the objectivity and also the siloing, um, I feel, if we're talking about magic and technique, I feel so much of the magic that I've experienced in life, um, or that I've experienced through the stories of other people, comes in the spaces between different disciplines and different modalities.
Speaker 1:For one, on a personal level, several years back, I had a chronic condition and the way I eventually got it treated was there was physical symptoms that I was able to treat through understanding the psychology of how my mind worked and my symptoms healed. You know, um, every doctor I went to see looked at just the physical symptoms. They didn't look at the sort of psychology of, like, what was going on in my life. You know, like that, um, once I made the connection with between them, you know, I was able to find a way for, uh, this experience. I had to kind of go away or like just disappear into the background. So I didn't, I didn't notice, you know, um, but I feel that just in in uh connection to what you're saying, that's my connection to it I feel, in this siloing between different forms, different modalities. That is so often where the magic, because that's where, like, two different types of things find a way to connect with each other.
Speaker 2:Totally, and I think you're speaking a lot to like one of the things that bothers me the most, which is like the Descartes mind-body divide. Yes, that's right, the Judaism I mean, and I was just in Athens last week and you know so much of like the Greek philosophy as well, which is also very patriarchal week, and you know so much of like the greek philosophy as well, which is also very patriarchal. It's like this idea that the mind is like a separate thing, yeah, or, or, human consciousness is like this special, separate, divided thing, and that's that's like the whole history of the civilization that we live in. And I, I really feel like, yeah, with, with um, health, as you said, um, but also just in our experience of the world, I, I value so much perceiving my body and spirit as a whole, you know, and that, um, my, my brain is connected to my stomach, my nervous system is connected to my brain and my skin and my ears, and like there's, there's a whole process happening all the time. That is holistic and, uh, that is really special to notice and like not, it feels really empowering to not feel divided, and so even, like you know, when I hear things or feel things or taste things. It feels like my senses are also like just as important as my thoughts.
Speaker 2:For me, um, I feel very, like, somatically in tune and I think that also really influences like how I approach art and definitely music. You know, for example, my new album, hymnal. I wanted to like introduce language a bit more into the work after working almost without language on my last album, build a process for that where it could be present, but but not take up too much space, that it's really an integral part of the music, but not in such a way that it distracts from, like, the somatic experiencing of the music. And I can tell you a bit more about that. But this is also just to say that I think, like music for me is like a holistic somatic experience. That's really important for me, like as a musician, as a music lover, as a composer, that it is like a multi-sensory experience. For me and I'm sure I have some synesthesia as well there's like I I feel colors and shapes.
Speaker 2:It's like, really, when I, when I work in electronic music space, um, it does feel very much like visual art to me right, okay, this idea that verez theorized about 100 years ago of like having sound objects yeah and um sonic objects that like interrelate, or the idea of maybe like painting or making sculpture with sound. This is very embedded for me too. It's very visual for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have you had any early experiences in your life where you noticed that synesthesia, maybe in someone else's music?
Speaker 2:I think it's. I think it's very. I think it's very. It feels very ingrained, I don't know, like when I learned that there were some composers who had tried to make systems to assign certain colors with certain pitches, it felt very native to me, like I was like that makes sense. Maybe I don't have such a clear system. If I'm listening to something, I usually have a clear association of, like a color or a tone.
Speaker 1:It happens very often because you were classically trained. Yeah, um, so that's quite contrasting, in a way, to the, the orthodox classical training, and I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about that. Like, you know, how, um, how did these formative experiences of classical training define you?
Speaker 2:do you reckon, oh, that's a big question. I think one, one of the one of the great things about classical training is that it is based on like tones and on, you know, bass, tone, fundament, um building chords, you know, balance of harmony, of um it's, it's. It's based in physics, yeah, um, even like putting your finger on a string and making a note, and it's, it's, it's very based on like physical principles of sound, which I think was really important for me and shaped me to like, really have a strong connection to like instruments and sound as it's like produced and whether that's like through the human voice or through instruments. I think, on the other hand, this like great lineage of of abstract sonic storytelling in classical music, a lot of instrumental music where there are no words, but maybe it was like inspired by a poem, and then it's like a musical expression or exploration of, maybe a poetic idea.
Speaker 1:A lot of folk traditions passed through.
Speaker 2:Folk traditions also, like in the Romantic period or even in like the renaissance period.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of um relationship between poetry and and musical forms, musical pieces which I find really compelling, and and then I was studying also a lot of like contemporary classical music, which was really you flourishing, alongside the development of digital technologies and scientific research, with sonic research and poetry, and so it's that's really feels really important to me as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess also like kind of my favorite stuff is postmodern, this idea of like you know, my favorite stuff is postmodern, this idea of, like you know, building a language from many different parts of music, history or different disciplines and constructing something from this. I think a lot of my favorite composers that I've studied in the 20th century, for example, were huge nerds about many other disciplines and like factored that into their work, and so I feel that a lot in my practice too, that you know I'm I'm into astrology or into quantum physics or into um different like stories or um fictional works or visual artworks, and I can like really feel like, yeah, I'm a nerd and I love that and I can like fold that into my work and that's okay. So I think that period also really taught me that and, on a more fundamental level, like just I trained my voice really well, like as an instrument, as a like physical vehicle, but also in terms of how to tell stories with the voice and and how to communicate with the voice was?
Speaker 1:was there like a point where you realized that you, the music that you wanted to make, or the music that you were making, um, your voice, was this the main anchor for it?
Speaker 2:you know, I don't know if it is the right thing to say the main anchor, but it is very, very present yeah, I think I just knew that after I studied at music conservatory like I spent so much time honing this instrument that it's the thing that is the easiest for me, also as a tool, even when I'm writing music, music, and so when I started to sketch demos, it became really clear that my instrument, my main instrument, was the voice and that I would build around that, that there's just a fluency and a capability and an immediacy there that allows me to work with improvisation or work with ideas quickly.
Speaker 2:I, I, I often get ideas very quickly and then they need to come out it's not something I like to like labor with or like try to write something down and record it later. I love to. I love to get something out quite quickly and I'm able to do that with my voice and are you able to do that with your setup as well?
Speaker 1:like we're in your studio right now, do you have like a very say you know the classic thing being in the shower or on a bus, and you suddenly get an idea like do you have a way that you do? You have to kind of rush it rush to the studio, or do you have a way of kind of keeping a melody in you?
Speaker 2:I. I often like I'm I'm kind of shy to sing in public. I don't usually like belt out in public, but I make voice memos like you'll. You'll often find me like somewhere, like like gently singing the melody that I came up with with a bass line on loop in a voice memo on my phone and like pocketing it again like I do a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that's brilliant. I'm going to talk a little bit about, like, the geography of where we're at as well. I, like you, came to berlin a little bit over a decade ago yeah, that's right, like almost 12 years 12 years, and before then you lived in, was it pennsylvania?
Speaker 2:or so I I studied at a place called the eastman School of Music. It's a music conservatory that was founded by George Eastman the founder of Eastman Kodak Film Right, okay, yeah so I left Pennsylvania to study there.
Speaker 2:It's in upstate New York in a city called Rochester. I graduated in 2013, got a grant to study in Germany for a year, went to my parents for the summer and then moved to Germany right after studying. So it's kind of like I my my parents had moved into a new house in New Jersey, left Pennsylvania in the couple of years before that. I stayed with them in the summer I didn't even have a home in my hometown at that point and then I went to Germany.
Speaker 1:yeah and did you know anything? Did you know about Berlin as a cultural city like music beforehand?
Speaker 2:yeah, I had studied German two summers in a row and in Berlin yeah so I think like 2011 and 2012.
Speaker 1:I see, and in 2013.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd spent like three months. Yeah, you know, in Berlin at that point, I think six weeks each summer something like this, and so I got a.
Speaker 2:I didn't know everything in Berlin, but I got a taste for what it could offer. I went, you know I'd been clubbing, I'd been to concerts. I knew like there was a super strong, very progressive classical music scene and this like very strong electronic music scene, which were like two of my huge interests, and so I knew that I could figure it out there, that there was plenty for me. It was a great city for me, basically yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause your music does really hit the sweet spot between these two disciplines really yeah without, in my subjective view, without either falling into being either one of them. You know there's. I can hear the uh, the, the kind of modern classical, the classical tradition going on in there. I can also hear the influence of electronic music and, just like the uh, the embeddedness of both of these and I was wondering for you, how do they both play out in in your day-to-day life?
Speaker 2:I think. I think for me the classical training has become, like um, a fundamental in a way, like more. I mean classical training can relate to many different genres, for example, you know, it's like a, it's like an architecture, it's a sense of like architecture or harmony or a space. There are many abstract aspects of classical training that you can apply to many different styles of music, for example, and so I think I've come into a really healthy place with the classical side of things where, even if I'm not working with classical strings, like on hymnal, that it's like an architecture or a language that I have access to. That I can apply even to other types of music.
Speaker 2:So like, even like tuning chords or thinking about like the form of a piece of music or a song and having references for that, even intuitively, of like maybe many other pieces that were constructed in a certain way, and thinking like, oh, okay, I could do something like this Right, constructed in a certain way, and thinking like, oh, okay, I could do something like this right. So so it's, it's like, it's just like so. In me at this point it feels that, um, you know, I really wanted to create this work. That was really like a, a love song to strings, and I think it's probably the most stringy album I've ever heard in my life, which is what I wanted to do yeah, yeah you know it's like really just go like string, string, like the beginning of it's got that just that beautiful, like sort of the strings just coming in.
Speaker 1:It's that sort of you know, it's got that kind of like. It's like I describe it as a sweep yeah, yeah, yeah, there's.
Speaker 2:So I mean there's the. I want to talk more about the strings in a second, but but on the, just to finish answering your question on the electronic side, I think, um, that's also become very like fundamental. I think both of these things are so in my body at this point, like I was raving. For so many years I've been such an electronic music lover in many different forms that it just kind of like it just is a part of my imaginary as a composer. Everything is like the in this kind of electronic space, like I, you know it's a school, techno is a school, you know it's a reference for a lot of us.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think house is also a big influence, um, and then there's that relation to, like I did a lot of choir singing the relation to, like gospel or folk song and how that's also ingrained in a lot of house music. So I think I think there think there's actually a lot of interrelationality between these worlds that I feel from knowing them both so well that maybe to a bystander you'd think these are very different things. But I feel like that was the exploration I wanted to make in this particular project was to really explore the Venn diagram of these worlds in a more explicit way, force myself to use like the most classical thing other than the piano, which is like classical strings, and and to make it to try to create like a hybrid that wasn't so classical in the end, where even I think. I think that through the experience of the record, you almost forget that it's classical at some point because it's also there's so much else going on yeah, yeah, definitely I mean again we.
Speaker 1:I mean, in some ways it's kind of funny to sort of talk about stuff that feels in a lot of ways very removed from like sort of being pinned down to like a sort of genre binary. But there are those elements of where it comes from at the same time yeah, I think I think there's like a great um.
Speaker 2:What I love about electronic music space in general is I think it is extremely open, extremely modular and a space of like limitless potential.
Speaker 2:Essentially the way that we use tools to like sample or deconstruct or like build new sounds or sculpt sounds or edit sounds or filter things like.
Speaker 2:There's so much potential to do sculpture essentially, or to fragment or distort or alter, and it's it's such an inventive space that I think you can bring something like classical strings in and recontextualize it.
Speaker 2:You can bring the human voice in, recontextualize it, and I think in that sense the electronic music space is can also really be like a dream world I think it has been for many composers a world that is not exactly like reality and that allows us to sample from reality, reference reality or reference different, maybe cultures or things, and like recontextualize it, maybe recontextualize our relationship with reality through another space, like an altered space, a different space.
Speaker 2:And that's what I love about electronic music, also in the repetition of loops, the principles of psychoacoustics, which cause us to maybe hear a repeated sound in different ways as it becomes repeated and our brain does some work to transform sound for us, even if nothing is changing in a loop. So so it's just really endlessly, endlessly fascinating for me and I think there's a lot of like political potential in electronic music in that sense to reconstitute reality, and that is my like magical fascination with electronic music that there is that deep potential to like transform and renegotiate relationship with certain sounds or ideas that we might have taken as concrete in some sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think for anyone that's had experiences in clubbing, we've all had a certain relationship with seeing the world beforehand and the world afterwards, you know, like certain things kind of unravelling. But I wanted to dig a little bit more into this idea of the political potential of electronic music. You know you started to talk about it there and I'm wondering if you'd care to go a little bit deeper in that and how you see, um, the potential of that I mean um you.
Speaker 2:You know probably don harroway's famous essay cyborg manifesto, like I think.
Speaker 2:I think that is like maybe it's become very materialized, this idea. I think there's a lot of it feels like there's a lot of artists now who are taking technology to expand or confront or challenge or overcome reality. Yeah, uh, the, the potential that we assign to ourselves or to the world, uh, to transform it, and um, I think, I think that you know, everything is technology, like throughout human history, um, you know, like the first pieces of clothing made from animal hide, or the first shoes, or the first bags, the first 15 minutes of 2001 are about the beginning of technology.
Speaker 1:In my mind as well, there's kind of uh, the the connect realization that you know we're the only species that are born into the world that can't spend our whole lives without putting on clothes. You know that have to have extensions to us in order to be able to, for whatever reason that we do you know, and how this is connected to evolution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and you know I think I follow some articles pop up for me online often of like research of spiders, because it's something that I've like kind of been interested in and they understand now that the the web of a spider is actually a prosthesis okay, I didn't know that no, it's actually like they perceive it as a part of their body right, oh, okay, right so so when you destroy a spider's web, it is unable to navigate.
Speaker 2:It feels that as part of its body, because that's how it actually navigates the world, right just as our feet.
Speaker 1:This is a brilliant excuse for when people come around my house and they complain about the spider webs why I haven't taken. Don't take them away. This is it. This is what I've been doing all along exactly, exactly so.
Speaker 2:So I think, I think, um, that is a form of technology that is organically connected to the spider's body. It makes a brilliant, powerful political metaphor for our entanglement with the technologies that we use as prostheses, actually, that we are this hybrid, organic, technological, digitally mediated creatures. We are also our tools that we use, and you'll know that if you're like in a period of like doom scrolling a lot, that this kind of becomes a part of you, there is this feedback loop between the technology that we use whether it's a pair of sunglasses or a pair of headphones or a microphone or you know these these tools also like expand us and define us or limit us in different ways, and so I think I think it's like looking at technology with such a broad vantage point is very freeing to really like build in technology into work and into creative processes in a way where it's not seen as something extra, but something like really organically connected.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, um, as, as a trans artist, do you feel like there's a perspective that you innately understand in that, that you feel that perhaps, going into back what we're talking about, like day cartian, dualism, forehand, about, like this continual separation between different elements of people, like, what is your perception on this in, in relation, say, to like, I guess, like the, it feels like on, in the other word, it feels like, you know, when you know the world is becoming more and more fragmented.
Speaker 1:You know, we were talking about this a little bit before the the tape started rolling, um, the. There seems to be this kind of uprising of just everything bad going on in the world, and so much of it is connected towards sort of like siphoning things into different spaces, organising either like whole nations of people within, like sort of like, say, what's going on in Gaza, you know? Or the, what's going on in Gaza, you know? Um, or the uh, what is going on with, with Trump's rollback of every kind of human right in America, you know? Um, it seems like, on one hand, like you know, maybe element idealistic, but it seems like the, the way forward is in like interconnectivity of all kinds, and it seems like the world is going in the opposite way of that and I know I'm rambling on this point, but I was wondering, like you know, more in a take on where you feel we're.
Speaker 2:I feel we're um creatures who there's like an irony in how much the Western world disposes religion, but we live in a religious world. The religion now is techno capitalism. The product is our minds and our entire lives, and the people in power adhere to a religious philosophy of ensuring the continued growth, growth, expansion and domination of capital on the earth, which is now enacted on our bodies and our souls and our free time, because we already dominated the whole earth and all of its natural resources right.
Speaker 1:So because it's gone around the whole world, it's now going into us so I want to talk about religion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, essentially because I I feel explicitly that, um, we cannot religion. We live by some values, whether we like it or not, and if we don't define our spirituality or our religious sensibility for ourselves in some way, then it becomes capitalist and extractive and racist and white supremacist and transphobic. Racist and white supremacist and transphobic, but also, of course, the divisions that are inherent in capitalism. You know, capitalism needs subjugation of people in order to work. It literally needs to subjugate people in order to function. So, of course, like destroying people's willpower and free will, education, knowledge, that's like fascism 101, right, and this is like what trump is trying to do to to ensure the, the productivity of his investors, you know, which is essentially like the, the capitalism, as the functioning principle of human reality, depends on human subjugation and human suffering.
Speaker 2:And that is religious in our world. Yeah, it feels to me. And this techno capitalist principle, you know. So, um, I, I think it's interesting to think about that, to frame it as like a religious practice, because even if they would not frame it in that way, I feel to me in practice that it is I mean, I was actually watching a documentary last night on youtube, which is obviously the greatest source of factually correct information.
Speaker 1:so I don't know but the the evolution of, say, like europe, from being like uh uh religiously formatted, into the arrival of like definite countries, rather than territories like patchwork, territories, like there was a Germany, but it was like a series of sort of like, sometimes like Slavic places into like a kind of concrete thing that was like say, for example, this is Germany, everyone speaks German here.
Speaker 1:Into like a kind of concrete thing that was like say, for example, this is Germany, everyone speaks German here. Um, and the modality becomes about like this is done through um early capitalism. This is done through like, prioritizing the market you know, over like sort of individual communities and maybe more like a kind of like a religious emphasis I think about that a lot too.
Speaker 2:I mean it feels, I mean the. I won't go too much into astrology but I think the, the era that we're entering now, the next like 10, 20 years feels very connected to a time of like social upheaval and revolution. Um, that was encoded in the, the years thated led up to and after the American Revolution, the French Revolution, irish uprising. It feels like there's a lot of reformatting of power. There's some of the most protests now that's been happening in the last 15 years. I feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it feels like there is this moment now for us to really question, which we all are having to much more than before, um, where the pressure is up and it's like, okay, what are we like? What are we really? What do we really want? Or do we do we want to be subjugated because, um, what, what is what is encoded in the palestinian struggle?
Speaker 1:yeah, the genocide of palestinians is that we're next essentially like this system is not made for anyone to thrive and accept the people who have money and power the thing I'm noticing more and more is the lack of being able to switch off from it, and what I mean by that is that, yeah, you, you saying like we're next, it's this idea that opting in to say maybe be visibly present in voicing, say, for example, your concerns about, or like the outrage and horror with with what is, uh, what is happening to the people of palestine, for example uh, that is beginning to feel so much more less of an option.
Speaker 1:You know to do that because, as you say, the reality is we're next, we're all interconnected anyway, but it feels like what else is there? Like you can switch off? You can decide that you don't want to voice your opinions, you can decide that you just want to concentrate on your daily life. But is there really that daily life there for you? Because, like you know, I know people have concerns about, like AI taking their jobs, for example, people have concerns about how economically they're suffering, and everything is all of this is somehow all tied together. It feels like, yes, there is becoming less and less of an option to actually to not participate, to not be, to not care.
Speaker 2:I think that I think that, also in the context of the development of much more complex machine learning models, like also the climate crisis, humanitarian crises, all of these things really position us, I feel, to be moving into a time that is unprecedented in human history, like we have not been here before, and it feels to me like what is happening, what is fermenting, what we're being pressured on, is to totally reimagine how we could conceive of reality, and we will be forced to.
Speaker 2:I mean, even just looking at AI, it will fundamentally impact our understanding of consciousness and what it means to be human, and I think that we can understand our more holistic selves. I think humans are electromagnetic, electrical light beings we depend on like radiation and light and water, and like electrical transmission of energy through ourselves in order to be healthy, not dissimilar from a computer, actually, and so I feel like there is also this like there's really this moment of like being forced to expand how it is we perceive being a being, yeah, what that means, what our life means to us in really radical ways, and I consider this album hymnal.
Speaker 1:A portal in that sense, that is also folkloric.
Speaker 2:that is also that there is that grief actually encoded in this music, the grief of losing a framework of reality that we maybe had known, but also the tremendous possibility of this world that is still around us, that is still here, the material, somatic connection to nature and to the universe and other life forms, non-human creatures, even artificial intelligence, to like reconstitute ourselves in new constellations, to challenge some of the egoistic precepts of 20th century Western psychology, to expand our notion of like being like a hive or a networked kind of collective, collective being in a way, and um, there's a lot of collaboration on on hymnal as well, and I'm trying to also like encode principles of like collectivity in the very fabric of the process of the music, even though there's so much of it is my own voice.
Speaker 2:Even there's a collectivity in the way that I use the voice, you know, in the sense that there are many voices and they're singing together, there are many strings and they're playing together. It's very symphonic. It is also like a sonic, political imaginary of the collaboration between humans and other species and and computers, yeah, and and like large language models, and you know that there's there's this churning, flocking I love that collaboration on it, and so the collaboration isn't just in the music, with the, what you hear as well.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the kind of biology collaboration yeah, so just like collaboration breakdown um, I, first of all, um, was so, so happy to to meet the sonar quartet, the string quartet, in berlin. They're phenomenal players, really incredible musicians, and we're so enthusiastic about the project. From the beginning, most of what you hear is music that I wrote and we recorded together in Berlin. There's also improvisations of theirs to vocal productions of mine that we worked on together, kind of a call and response of like, kind of changes of like improvisations, kind of changes of like improvisations and and um, so their improvisations are also all through the record in a way that feels really important to me because their voices are part of the record, even like um, the, the violist, ian um, he's scottish and there are some moments where there's really a scottish sound and it's like so.
Speaker 1:So that's like um a feature of our collaboration, of the people that we work with, and I think that's much more interesting than just being like okay, you're like in the background or you're just strings or like to feel the folkloric, um potential, like humans working together on a thing because I guess, like collaboration seems to fall into two different camps between like, uh, like what you were talking about there, and like the other thing is like hiring a bunch of people to play some strings yes, which I take it, this isn't what you're talking about here. It's you know this feels what you're doing is very different from the idea of getting in like a session player to play something. You have an idea of what they're doing and I.
Speaker 2:I needed to work. I needed to work with a quartet who really vibe with each other, really understand each other, understand how to improvise with with each other. They're tremendous improvisers and they know how to tune with each other. That's really, really important to me too the, the intonation, which is hard if people don't aren't used to playing with each other actually, because it's it's a very felt, sensed thing. There's a lot of listening that happens when tuning with within a group and um, so so it's it's like their skill and their commitment, their work together that enables the sound on the record. It wouldn't have been possible to getting together many different session musicians to achieve that sound. It would not have been possible. So it's like the, the work that they put in as a quartet, that like is very fundamental to the sound world and to the recording.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my friend Nadia Marcus is like a phenomenal poet. She lives here in Berlin and I knew I wanted to commission her to write poetry. So I gave her kind of like a prompt or like a framework and she wrote eight poems that we were sharing and reading together, that were inspiring me, even when I was working on the first drafts of the first written harmonies for the strings and that accompanied me through the whole process. I knew since Fountain that I wanted to bring in language into my work, but in a way that was still deconstructed, that would allow the somatic experience of the music to take precedent, and I knew I needed to come up with a kind of system to do that that would make sense. And so this was a totally an experiment.
Speaker 2:Another friend of mine, jenna sutella, a finnish artist who works a lot with, like open systems and non-human systems, she's worked with this single cell organism, uh, slime mold.
Speaker 2:Um, it's this small, like very small yellow slime basically, and it's it's much older than humans and um, it got famous in the last 10 years or so by a researcher in tokyo who discovered that they have this like kind of collective intelligence and if you put like food, for instance, like in a maze with a piece of oats, they can like find the oats through the maze, right, okay, yeah, so, for example, the city of Tokyo did an experiment where it recreated a micro version of the subway system of Tokyo and put oats at all the subway stops with exact measurements, kind of on to scale, and grew the slime mold in the middle.
Speaker 2:They discovered there were some more efficient paths for the subway system, that they learned from the intelligence of the slime mold, that they were able to like, recraft and update the subway system to be more energy efficient and save time for travelers slime mold saves the day yes, and so it's like a really beautiful collaboration right between a non-verbal species that we would say we would have said for most of the last 200 years of scientific research like these.
Speaker 2:This is not intelligent, but of course it is. It's finding its way through a maze. Yeah, so that's. Is that not a? Is that not a brain, a collective brain of some sort? So I'm basically I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm also really inspired from um john cage, who, of course, um, he created some like randomization processes in his compositional process, like using I Ching or some different kind of gamified methods to bring chance into his compositional process, and I find that also very inspiring, like to release control in this way. I find that also like very spiritually grounding for me. And so we created a kind of chance environment where Nadia reduced the poems to like a few keywords and phrases from each poem and then we created like a bingo card kind of a map just on one A4 sheet of paper with all the words going around. And then Yana created a kit for me with an agar base to grow the slime mold on, and I put oats on all the words and I allowed the slime to grow for seven days and nights and took pictures of it as it was traveling across the board, through the oats, and it was very fascinating to see how it moved like a bit uncanny. It actually made like a spiral around the sheet of paper over the week, a clockwise spiral.
Speaker 1:You have photos of this.
Speaker 2:So, yes, I have photos of it, but then, because I had taken pictures at regular intervals, I was able to see the path that it took in slow motion. So on another sheet with the same words, I recreated the path of the slime mold with pen, with arrows, and I used that as a visual score. The other part, additionally to the string recording session, was an eight-day vocal improv session in the Dolomite Mountains, in a friend's home studio, right, wow, okay, in Northern Italy, and I didn't write any vocal parts on this record. I think that's also why it feels so alive in a way, because all the vocals you hear were improvised and then resampled and edited with granular synthesis, and so that vocal session was basically like I had like 20,.
Speaker 2:That vocal session was basically like I would. I had like 20, 25 demos. I would look at this map and like choose the word, maybe one word that resonated with me for that demo. But then I was limited by the path that the slime mold took, right, so I only allowed myself to go to adjacent words, but only in the direction that it went. So if there was a word I really liked behind and the slime mold went forward, I only could go forward. So it was like um, a fixed, like limited system for the improvisation as well, with the language that I created, like kind of in collaboration with the slime mold, which is very, very interesting I think and it feeds into this idea we were talking about earlier on about the structures behind improvisation, you know, having some kind of formation to go with.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. And you know, having the quartet involved and Nadia and Yana and it was, there was so much co-authorship, the slime, there's so much co-authorship, the slime, it it feels so co-authored in a way, um, which is really appealing to me, like my voice is very central to it, but the, the actual sound world that is created there, there's so many other voices and beings that went into building that and that that feels really special to me and it more authentic in a way and also very lifelike as well, because it's about like all of us, like we're, wherever we're at we are.
Speaker 1:The culmination of everything that's led us to this point as well, and this sort of sense of acknowledging that, as well, you know I mean it'd be a bit too heavy to go around spending like all of our days acknowledging every single element of why we're that point in our lives we're at, but, um, I think, you know, in terms of making a piece of art that is based around ideas, around this, that's a very interesting thing, yeah, and I'm just kind of sort of like rounding up a little bit, you know. I mean, um, a lot we talked about today sort of feels like it's sort of about this kind of culmination of sort of nature, infusing with technology, and feels like the culmination right now with the album Hymnal. Looking back on, like so when you first started your musical journey, you know like, having done this album, now, what would you tell your younger self?
Speaker 2:I honestly I I struggle with that question a lot. I think I think really like we are meant to go through certain processes of like, learning and spiritual growth in our lives that I wouldn't. I I think that was everything I went through, was something I needed to go through, and I don't think I ever could have produced this work 10 years ago. I don't think it would have happened, and so I'm grateful to my younger self for going, having the courage and going on the journey that I did that led me eventually to here. I don't want to tell my younger self a thing. Actually, I think my younger self did pretty well. That's how I really feel.
Speaker 1:Good answer. Good answer. Yeah, I think I feel the same as well, Like I might be very, very tempting to say something to my younger self like even just like comedy, like buy Bitcoin in 2010. But it's that sort of back to the future too thing, isn't it Like? Once you start playing with something in the past, you know.
Speaker 2:I had totally different priorities back then too.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I would have listened to myself.
Speaker 2:No, no, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:And it goes into what you're saying as well about just like how we organically build up everything together.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah yeah, it's a it's, it's a journey, and I think there's like this real accumulation of experience. That's really important yeah um, yeah, I'm grateful that I got to work with so many cool people on this project and it feels also like I'm also pressuring myself less to like deliver this, like idea of like being a, a soloist or a genius or something that it can be. You feel more vibey and collaborative and I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's like the kind of that reminds me a lot of the Björk idea of like you know, like Björk is yeah, she is in some ways she's this sort of singular genius is always this sense of collaboration between different like sort of people, different forms, um like she's like an umbrella for like an idea I mean she, she taught me so much, she's one of my mothers and for many friends of mine as well, and I think, I think, um, yeah, I mean she, she really paved a way for a lot of us to understand how to make like exciting, daring, exploratory, collaborative artwork yeah, laura, thank you so much thank you so much
Speaker 1:okay, so that was me, paul hamford, talking with lyra pramukh for lost in sound podcast, and we had that conversation on monday j, june 9th 2025. The rather sublime hymnal album is out now on 7K and PopSoil and thank you so much, lyra, for sharing your time and your thoughts with me there. If you like the show and you haven't already, please give it a subscribe. Give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice. It really, really really does help. And if you like what I do and you want to check out more of what I do, you can listen to my bbc radio documentary the man who smuggled punk rock across the berlin wall by heading on over to the bbc sounds app or on the bbc world service home page.
Speaker 1:Lost and sound is sponsored by audio technica, the global but family run company that make headphones, tur turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality yeah, affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. And Tom Giddens is the name of the person who does the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of Lost in Sound. There's always a hyperlink to his work in the podcast description, so go and check it out and yeah, so that's it. I hope, whatever, whatever you're doing, you're having a really good one today. Take care, and I'll see you soon. Thank you.