Lost And Sound

Emerald

• Paul Hanford • Episode 178

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Emerald has built a name as a leading voice representing UK underground club culture, we spoke as she steps into a new chapter as label owner and producer. From growing up as "the laptop DJ" on the outskirts of London to becoming a champion of underground sounds on Rinse FM and beyond.

Standing six feet tall, mixed-race, and bisexual, she describes feeling like "a clumsy giraffe on roller skates" yet transforms this feeling of otherness into her greatest strength. The origins of her new label Precious Stones—named after herself and sisters Sapphire and Ruby—reflect both personal heritage and her vision for music that transcends conventional boundaries.

Throughout our conversation, Emerald dismantles industry myths with a refreshing and down to earth honesty. She questions the often contradictory definitions of "underground" culture, challenges networking norms that feel forced, and advocates for spaces where revolutionism and anti-establishmentarianism can flourish. 

Listen to Emerald’s music on Bandcamp

If you enjoy Lost and Sound and want to help keep it thriving, the best way to support is simple: subscribe, leave a rating, and write a quick review on your favourite podcast platform. It really helps others find the show. You can do that here on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.

Huge thanks to Lost and Sound’s sponsor Audio-Technica – makers of beautifully engineered audio gear. Check them out here: Audio-Technica

Want to go deeper? Grab a copy of my book Coming To Berlin, a journey through the city’s creative underground, via Velocity Press.

And if you’re curious about Cold War-era subversion, check out my BBC documentary The Man Who Smuggled Punk Rock Across The Berlin Wall on the BBC World Service.

You can also follow me on Instagram at @paulhanford for behind-the-scenes bits, guest updates, and whatever else is bubbling up.


Speaker 1:

Hi, paul here. Welcome to Lost in Sound, the show that goes deep with artists shaping music and culture from the underground up, and this week we dive back into UK club culture with my guest, emerald. But before we get going, lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica, over 60 years old now and still a family-run company. They make headphones, microphones, turntables and cartridges. Their gear is studio-grade, affordable and built on the belief that great sound should be for everyone. I use their stuff. I've used their stuff since I was like a little indie musician back in the late 90s and I still do now. But anyway, anyway, here we go, thank you, hello and welcome to episode 178 of Lost in Sound.

Speaker 1:

I'm Paul Hanford, I'm your host, I'm an author, broadcaster and a lecturer, and Lost in Sound is the podcast where each week I have a conversation with an artist who works outside the box about music, creativity and about how they're navigating life through their art. So, whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's good to have you along. And this week is a little dip back into UK clubland, I think for the first time since the Bradley Zero episode, a little short while back, and my guest is Emerald, DJ broadcaster and long-time champion of underground UK culture. You may have heard her flagship Rinse FM show, where she spent years platforming new and established voices across grime, uk funky breaks, techno and beyond. Or maybe you've seen her speaking on panels at ADE, ava or other festivals, and she's always bringing a clear and open perspective to where the scene's at and important issues within it. She's also behind the award-nominated Club Night Afters with Emerald, and the reason we had this chat is that she's stepping into the realm of label owner and producer. Her debut ep is dropping this august and it's on her new label, precious stones, and it's a very headsy, more focused deepening of her sound djs like hi, richie horton and the aforementioned bradley zero who have been playing it out already.

Speaker 1:

And so, yeah, last week my guest Gyrafield was talking about taking a humanistic view of the arts, and that's something that I feel we really get into in this conversation that you're about to hear Emerald's honest, open and completely unafraid to speak her mind. So, yeah, this is a nice conversation, but first a little bit of housekeeping. If you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe. If you've got time, please give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice always means a hell of a lot to me. When, when, when you do so, um, but either way, glad to have you here. So, yes, we had this chat on Thursday, 10th of July 2025. And so, yeah, let's get into it. This is Emerald on Lost in Sound. So how are you doing in general? How are things for you at the moment?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all right, god, that's such a big question.

Speaker 1:

It is, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

In general, yeah, pretty good. I mean, can't complain, life is generally pretty good, but obviously there are ups and downs, like like there are in every everyone's life. But yeah, in general I'm pretty happy with this life.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's good to know because, as, like you know, you're very, very, you're a very multi-hyphenate person. You know, dj, producer, radio host, host, label owner, keynote speaker, sometimes like what is a typical day for you, like at the moment yeah, well, it is spinning a lot of plates um and you know what, in the past, a typical day for me has been trying to spin various plates at the same time, simultaneously.

Speaker 2:

But I think, as I've got an older and I'm in my 30s now, I'm prioritizing time management a little bit more. So, you know, I'm choosing to when I have quieter periods. When it comes to touring, I'll be in the studio for a lot of that time, and vice versa, you know. So just just trying to make make sure that I'm not overloading myself by, like you say, trying to bite off more than I can chew all at once and then really actually, when it comes to it, being like this isn't enjoyable yeah and um, you know, I got into this job because it's my passion, so I want to make sure that it still feels good when I'm doing it.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, typical day for me at the moment is choosing one of those things and and uh, dedicating all my energy into one of those things and really just trying to keep my focus.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us can relate to that. I think, particularly the whole spinning different plates thing. At the moment, I think it can take a lot of concentration just jumping from one thing to another. Do you have any techniques or things that you try to put in place so that you know that you can always, you know, keep enjoying the work that you want to do?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I make sure that I'm doing. Ok. That's the thing with music as well. Once you start working in music, you don't listen to music in the way you used to, right.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you're analyzing it and you're thinking about it in a different way. That relates to you to work. So I make sure that, like a few times a year, I'll go somewhere and I'm not djing, you know, I'm just and it's just the same, even when it doesn't come to music, just like. Make sure I'm traveling or like, or I'll go on holiday, even if it's just for like a weekend, or even if it's just in the british countryside just make sure that it's just a non-work related journey, you know.

Speaker 2:

So just making sure that that work-life balance is in place. Um, also, I could not do this job without a manager. She is so incredible at just like the logistical side of things. Well, she's good at many things, but especially the just logistical side of things. Just making sure that you know if, say, if I've got like a mix coming up that I'm going to do like I'm playing all night long somewhere that we put in the diary right, we've carved out three days with loads of time for you to do all that prep work, and those days are just dedicated to those one things. So, really, time management like it sounds like just like a buzz word, but it's it's a real practical thing that can help a lot, I think, for me. I struggle with concentration a lot, so yeah.

Speaker 2:

I um also how I do it myself. Say, if I've got a studio day and like I'm I'm working on one particular project, I will literally write on the whiteboard 12 o'clock till 1 pm this is what I'm doing. 1 pm till 2 pm this is what I'm doing. 2 pm 3 pm lunch like make sure you stop for lunch. I'm really carving out those hours and trying to just keep that structure because otherwise I find myself doing that thing where I start a million things and finish none of them. So yeah, time management is just such an important thing that I'm really trying to really trying to learn to harness as best as possible definitely can relate to that as well.

Speaker 2:

I think it's a really boring answer no, no, I think it.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a really great answer and I think it's also it's something that you just have to keep hammering in as well, isn't it like it's? Uh, sometimes there's no real science to these things, or it's just about like the kind of the, the common basic thing of factoring in time to do stuff, sort of sticking to like I'm really terrible, I'll make loads of notes and I'll structure stuff, then I'll let things overrun and then everything gets all very hickledy, pickledy and unfinished. And I know that if I just stick to my timetable and like plan things out realistically as well, give myself enough time as well, like some tasks, like particularly like the more creative tasks like I was wondering for you, like with, like the production side, you know that it's. It's not, it's like a ball of string, isn't it like time can just extend on and you know an idea can evolve and really, and to be honest, when it comes when those things, when those moments do happen, you actually do have to go with it yeah because you know you can't, you can't structure creativity.

Speaker 2:

Really, you can, you, you can to a certain extent. But when you get into that state where it's like I'm really running with an idea here, it's important to sometimes just abandon your structure. Yeah, as it is to have it. I think it is important to be able to abandon it and just throw caution to the wind a little bit and just get creative. But yeah, I think, in order to get to that space in the first place, if you're like me and your brain is like having a brilliant tabs open, then it's important to just sort of. You know, having a creative space versus actually like putting up a chair and sitting in. It are two different things, you know yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

You have to give yourself the chance and then from that you can adapt outwards. When things happen, it's like it's like free jazz. It doesn't start from completely just made up stuff. There's structure there and then from that you can go off and explore that is the perfect analogy.

Speaker 2:

It really is well done.

Speaker 1:

You've nailed it cool, excellent and so like I mean it's, it's an exciting time for you. Like you know, we got precious stones um coming about, would you? I just always wonder if you could tell me a little bit about that, like precious stones, your new label, and like you got the the ep coming out on it. Like how did this come about? Like what kind of need, what kind of place were you in for the idea to come about?

Speaker 2:

it's so funny actually because, like it's, it's still, it's still so newly out into the world. So, hearing somebody say it, someone who I've met, yeah, it's like real, it's just like an idea I had in my head and now it's like in the world and other people know about it. It's really surreal, but, um, so yeah, precious stones. I guess, like a lot, of, a lot of people's record labels these days start from the need to just be on your own time frame and self-release, so having complete creative autonomy.

Speaker 2:

Um, so I just wanted to be able to be like okay, I want to put this tune out now and I want it to look like this, I want to sound like this and I don't want to have to wait for anyone, um, so that's where it came from. And then from that, I just started getting really creative really, and the free jazz started flowing. I mean the concept, the name it's named after me and my sisters. So my sisters I'm Emerald, obviously, sapphire and Ruby are my sisters, and from that it's also like a symbolism for you know, those precious, precious pieces of music and those hidden gems and those things that you find that are like so sacred to you. And I just wanted to. For the time being it's going to be just my music, but I've started collaborating with a few people. I'm not going to name anyone just yet, um, and I've got some remixes coming out and I'm also going to sing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I've, I've, I've always sort of secretly been a singer for my whole life, but just never really. It's the one thing that I really well, it's the one thing that I've never been able to conquer my stage fright in. But I feel like the time is coming where, like I don't know, you get to your thirties. You get to your thirties this is so cliche you get to your thirties and you're just like why the hell not? Like I don't really care as much as I used to about judgment anymore and like I'm just less afraid of being myself, I suppose, which is a really liberating feeling, and I just think, if not now, when? So I'm going to do it, and that's this is the perfect platform for me to do it.

Speaker 2:

I think Pressure Stones I really want it to represent like storytelling in its like most authentic form. I don't want it to be like it doesn't necessarily have to be club ready music, although you know that's what I like to make is club ready music. But you know, if somebody wanted to put something out that was really emotive and didn't necessarily, wasn't necessarily for the club. So when I, when I do eventually put out my vocal stuff, there'll probably be some stuff that's not club ready with some dance remixes on there, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I want it to really just be about feeling and it not there, not to be any limitation on what you produce. I want it to be like. I don't want it to be like this is a dance music label and we create techno, we create house and say do your thing, you know, do your, do your bloody thing. And um, I'm, I'm really um, inspired by. This is gonna sound really mental, but actually no, I thought that was weird.

Speaker 1:

No, no, go for it.

Speaker 2:

Go for it, I can always cut it yeah, okay, I guess I've been inspired by myself in a way right, okay this sounds really weird, but like what I did when I first started making music is I would almost visualize what it looked like before I knew what it sounded like, almost have like a character in my head or like a story and a visual, like like a photo shoot or a video shoot, for it was just something that ran through my head and I was like I could see the visual, like it almost was like a comic, you know, yeah, and now I just saw a narrative in its complete visual form and then I would make music for it, and so I think that's what I want to keep really strong with precious stones as well.

Speaker 2:

It's like, I think, as a creative, I think when I make music, making the visual stuff to go alongside it is just as important and it's just as beautiful and it's just as like. It informs the music as much as the music informs the visual. So I think I want to keep that growing. Unfortunately, everything costs so much money, especially visual side of things, but I really think that that's a, that's something that I really love to create and I think that's what, something that I want to keep important with Precious Stones.

Speaker 1:

I think, yeah, because you you mentioned about like the symbolism of the name Precious Stones and it like your name and your sister's names, and then that kind of echoes into this idea of like the visual language you know, and kind some kind of way of. I mean, for me it gives symbolism, like using it, like gives things a kind of meaning or a kind of reference I can look to and go oh yeah, yeah, it's about that. You know, this is what yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm a very a visual learner. I always have been a very visual learner. If I see something, I don't forget it. I've got a really bad long-term memory. If somebody tells me something that happened, I'm like no. But if they tell me like what they were wearing on that day or like what something looked like, I'll remember the whole day like that and I'll be like, yes, I've got it. I remember like what shoes I was wearing that day, and then I'm like yes, and now I know that conversation. So for me, like visual cues are just such a um, I think even like say, say, for example, like tattoos yeah even if that tattoo doesn't have a meaning right it still.

Speaker 2:

It's almost like a scar. It's like it represents that time in your life and that experience that you went through. Even if it's just like a star, you know something like that it's like I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I think visual cues are just. That's just how my brain works. It really is, is, and I like what you said about it summoning something. That's a really good way to put it. Like, with my memory, when I see something, it summons a feeling, it summons like some music, it summons that experience or a person, or just like what was going on in your mind at that time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it kind of puts you back in track to perhaps what your original idea was, because you can see like a visual reference to it, like an amazing piece of clothing that, like someone will buy, they'll, they'll have like a memory of like the first time they wore it out.

Speaker 2:

you know things like that smell it again, you know yeah yeah, I mean for me.

Speaker 1:

My guilty one is like I'll have a cigarette like the first sort of bit of cold weather in autumn and it takes me back to being a 16 year old, having a cheeky little cigarette, you know, at school driving and having a cigarette.

Speaker 2:

It might take me right back to being at college. I like I can remember being in my first car like chain smoking, because that was that was just something to do, wasn't it?

Speaker 1:

definitely.

Speaker 2:

Definitely Obviously. But like you know, you're back in that feeling.

Speaker 1:

Definitely it's awful, but you cannot deny what it does to you.

Speaker 2:

It's like I can do whatever I want. It's that feeling Definitely. That liberation yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's like a flashback in a film, to like an early 2000s style montage of what like someone was listening to, like I don know tlc or you know, uh limp biscuit or something.

Speaker 2:

For me, that memory you actually just summoned a memory from my red vw polo night two plate I think it was which was the year I was born. So I was like um, and then chain smoking cigarettes because I was like I can do whatever I want, driving like through stains, like egg them that way, and this CD that my mate had burned for me and there was this like there was loads of MIA on that CD and I remember this is when we were really obsessed with MIA and like, yeah, I just remember that feeling Getting lost on the motorway when we were supposed to be in lessons, like yeah, that's getting lost on the motorway when we were supposed to be in lessons, like yeah, yeah, that's so interesting actually, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

because you know, you went on to like be a tour dj with MIA, and so, if we're talking about like things like symbolism and things like that, what was it, what was you know and like listening to MIA when you were growing up, what was it like when you kind of got that role, you know, sort of stepping into the shoes of a situation that you know had informed part of your life?

Speaker 2:

absolutely nuts it. Just, it took a while for me to stop, sort of like, okay, because you know, suddenly you're in that situation and you hold on. Actually you have to do this job. So I'm like, okay, I need to get over the fact that this is literally a dream come true. And, uh, you know how lucky and how rare is it to actualize a dream that you genuinely had. You know, I genuinely I want to do this one day. And then here I am, 10 years later.

Speaker 2:

So there's a certain point where you have to just sort of silence the voice in your head and go, okay, let me just actually do this. And then you start living it and it's just the most beautiful, magical, wonderful thing in the world. Because when it's like a, when it's like a dream come true scenario like that, it's almost like I haven't even been practicing. Like okay, you want to say like I've been practicing my whole life for this moment or whatever, but I haven't even been practicing. It's been my life.

Speaker 2:

You know, like I know every fucking single lyric to every tune that we, that I'm supposed to be rehearsing. I don't even need these lyric sheets. It's just like I'm, I was meant to do this job. You know, say that with my chest like it doesn't even feel weird or like cringy, to say that like I genuinely was meant to do that job and I really felt that, you know, and it was just such a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful moment in time and, yeah, it was just an honor and a pleasure and I can't even, I can't even describe how amazing it's an amazing kind of thing to have, isn't it definitely?

Speaker 1:

and I wanted to kind of just go back and like, as we sort of gone into talking about like formative stuff, just kind of get a little bit of like stuff about like your you know how you got into music, like young experiences like you know you're talking about, like smoking cigarettes and listening to like MIA in the car, but like, did you come from like a musical family or is it something that you found yourself?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I wouldn't say like I came from like the biggest musical family, but my dad, my dad had a lot of records. My dad did a bit of DJing, uh, did a bit of radio and stuff in like the 80s and he had turntables at home and he had a mixer and like yeah, definitely rifled through his records a lot with my sister. I had my two sisters growing up. Like everyone was into different stuff. My dad was into like hip-hop, dub and reggae pretty much exclusively and my mum was into like she loved playing Faithless all the time.

Speaker 2:

She loved like trancy, like 90s ravey sort of stuff but then she, she also played a lot of african music in the house, like bellacuti, tenorio when, lots of stuff like that. And then my middle sister, ruby, because I'm the youngest of three, so my middle sister she was really into garage and grime and like channel you, blazing squad, stuff like that. And then my eldest sister was really into bands and guitar music. So she got me into a lot of indie and she taught me about Elvis and stuff like that. So I kind of I was really lucky into having a sort of all-rounder. But I think I don't know, I think I think some people just have that like they're born with that obsession when it comes to like music and like.

Speaker 2:

For me, I was just obsessed with collecting, mostly digitally. At first I'm like the lime wire the lime wire generation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was a golden era, wasn't it?

Speaker 2:

beautiful, I mean highly legal. But you know we've moved on from that now. Yeah, I mean I was attached to my iPod classic. It was very much like every party that we went to it was like Emerald iPods on. Yeah, I was like the laptop DJ of my teens when it came to like my peer group and stuff. So yeah, it just kind of the obsession was, I guess, sparked by my family and then just grew through my twisted mind.

Speaker 1:

So it sort of feels like the like getting into radio and DJing feel like very like logical extensions from, from basically just what you're into, you know, you're just life basically.

Speaker 2:

Definitely they kind of came as like a next step sort of thing. But to be honest, I didn't actually I wasn't sure that it was actually ever going to happen. I'm from like a small town, basically just out on the outskirts of london, like if there was a zone seven, it'd be zone seven yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like different postcode from london, that kind of vibe yeah, you still get a red bus there, like yeah it's basically just shit, you know, and so I just I just kind of felt like a.

Speaker 2:

I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb. I was also one of the only brown people in my area for a long time, so I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb.

Speaker 2:

So I knew like I wanted something different from life, but I didn't feel like it was possible because there was no representation for me yeah so I guess I just thought like, oh yeah, I'm never gonna like be a presenter, presenter, or like, do it be a DJ as an actual profession? But I still gave it a good go. And I think, because I was just quite gung ho about it, it sort of happened. And I also, around the time I started at Rinse, after I sent them my demo, I broke my leg. So I had no choice. Well, not no choice, but like I had limited.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I couldn't really do much much and I was a very active person. So I, I'm, I was. I I see it as a blessing now because I put so much time and energy into honing in on radio, presenting and getting really good at it, because I had so much time sitting on my ass. Basically, it actually really helped me propel, like launch myself head first and like immerse myself completely into it. Um, and then I guess, as I started picking up more slots at Rinse, people started offering me DJ gigs and I had tunes, but I didn't know how to mix properly, yeah, so I kind of was like I don't really want to say yes, because I don't want to like I'm not going to be a fraud and also I don't want to embarrass myself. So I just spent hours and hours in the practice room at rinse, so I kind of just like utilized what was around me, basically, and one thing led to another yeah and did.

Speaker 1:

were there any like early moments, like perhaps maybe even before rinse, where because you were sort of mentioning about feeling like you stuck out like a sore thumb, where you saw like validification or your own worth, I guess in in what you were doing or maybe reflected through someone else or someone else kind of giving you a, giving you a chance or an ear?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm trying to think before Rinse. I mean, I think I'm mixed race, right, I'm bisexual, I'm also six foot one, so like I'm just, I always just feel like a bit of an anomaly. So I think, even now I think I don't know anybody who's like the same mix as me or like the same height as me, even as a woman. So I do, I do still often feel like I don't know, if I ever feel like I see myself reflected in like society ever and more obviously obviously way more so now that we're in 2025 like it's crazy how much stuff has changed in terms of representation.

Speaker 2:

I guess in the early days, clara Anthlo on radio one she was a big, big inspiration to me yeah growing up I was, I was obsessed with radio as well, but I mean, honestly, it was few and far between. Oh, you had like DJ Storm and Chemistry obviously RIP, but you know she was one of the ground people to be a professional DJ, but it was rare, it was really really rare there were. There were a few and like my memory's not good enough to recall people's names who I should be shouting out right now, but like it was tough back then, like it would have to be taken seriously, because there wasn't much example of it.

Speaker 2:

So I mean massive respect to the women who were doing it, to the brown women who were doing it in the 90s, because I mean I mean they had zero representation before them. So that's tough.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Opened a lot of doors for people like me, and I hope that I continue to do so.

Speaker 1:

And is that sort of something that plays a part in because you know you're very active as a speaker, you know you're very active in getting involved in campaigns? Is that something like you mentioned about? Like you know, passing it on? Is that, is that sort of part of the reason why that part of your life comes into effect?

Speaker 2:

of the representation factor. Definitely, I think it's really important for young brown women to see young brown women a little bit older than them, but you know young brown women talking about how they have achieved stuff despite barriers, and you know it's so important to pass it down.

Speaker 2:

I think as well. I'm quite vocal about my mental health struggles. I like working with children. I just think like god, it's so cliche, but children really are the revolution. Like it is so important to inspire the next generation in the right way and just show them that there is. There are opportunities that don't all seem like doom and gloom and you can get a step out of an echo chamber and do what you want to do.

Speaker 1:

You've just got to fight for it yeah, yeah, and that echoes I hope I'm not presuming, but into something you sort of mentioned earlier on about the label preciousrecious Stones as well, and having that kind of sense of autonomy. I feel like there I mean I'm like a cis white dude, so what do I know? But I try to be an open ear and I was wondering, like from your perspective, like because you mentioned like representation has changed a lot, but I know like, particularly like in the techno scene, like I live in Berlin and the techno scene has kind of become a lot more diverse in the last few years, but it still feels like there's a majority of key voices that are sort of very much like white, like elite, elite voices, I guess you know. And like I was wondering, from your perspective, like what kind of barriers do you see at the moment in terms of representation?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I agree with you. I think there is a lot of elitism when it comes to dance music, which is unfortunate, but it is definitely getting better. I I see, like what really sucks and I hope that I'm not perpetuating it by even saying it or even playing the game but is the sort of popularity competition of it right, yeah no, and I think that sometimes quality is ignored because a box needs to be ticked or somebody is better connected or you know.

Speaker 2:

You know. You see the same lineups being booked because they're a really cliquey group of friends that each other all the time, and then occasionally they'll sort of open the door to somebody else who passes the test, you know yes, like joining a gang at school, you know, like, like in greece or something, yeah, and to be honest, I've always been a little bit of a loner, like I've got.

Speaker 2:

I've got a lot of mates that I love very dearly, but, you know, in in different groups, you know I'm not really part of one group and I kind of find it a bit overwhelming sometimes. So I I do find that a little bit tricky to navigate sometimes. I don't really like the whole idea of networking. Makes me feel weird inside, like it feels like I'm forced socializing, you know, but I don't know, oh, I just, if it comes naturally, then that's a beautiful thing, you know, and I think I think the lesson in that for me that I've learned is don't force it, don't push it like be in a space you want to be in because you genuinely want to be there and you enjoy that, you enjoy your surroundings in your environment, and do not force friendships. If you organically hit it off with somebody and you get along, bonus amazing. And also just work on what you want to work on. Don't compare yourself to other other people.

Speaker 1:

Comparison is the thief of a joy, but like you've got to focus on what you want to do and then your quality will shine and then hopefully you'll get marked in your quality rather than your chat yeah, a really nice words there and that that is a very brave course as well because, like, as you mentioned, there's a I think there's a lot of temptations along the way, like a lot of shortcuts that feel like they, they could be offered, like in terms of like things, like popularity, particularly when you mentioned about like networking, and I feel I think what you said like really echoes, I think, because I feel why you know, like working with people, that you really like um, working with people, that you, that you, you know where you both get each other or group of people get each other, makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1:

But working with someone just because they're cool or they represent a step up, it's like, are you really going to enjoy being in that situation with someone just because they're cool or they represent a step up? It's like, are you really going to enjoy being in that situation with someone that you don't gel with? Like how, how does someone make work in a situation where they're not gelling with people?

Speaker 2:

totally. And you know what I've? I've really recently sort of tried to step out of my comfort zone a little bit because before I'd be like, oh no, I can't, I can't go to this event because I just I'm just I'm just a very socially anxious person. I think like I like to be a bit reclusive, but recently I've stepped out my comfort zone and I've actually realized that you know, some people are actually bloody lovely and they're bloody legends and actually they do really want to give you a chance. They do like, amongst a lot of elitism and a lot of cliqueyness, there are some real absolute legends there who are so up for giving you a chance and just actually just want to chat to you and hang out and be nice. And I think it's it's softened my sort of like you know fear towards, towards things like that and I feel less like I'm a loser in a playground now and more like I'm like okay, okay, no, not everyone's that scary and maybe I'm actually all right.

Speaker 2:

you know nothing to worry about. Maybe I'm not like the buffoon that I thought I was.

Speaker 1:

I think everyone is the buffoon that they think they are. I hope anyway, I don't mean I want that on people, but you know what I mean. I feel like everyone's got a little bit of like oh, why did I say that? Oh, yeah, I hope it's not just me.

Speaker 1:

It feels like I'm a clumsy giraffe on roller skates all the time, basically so I had a thing where, um, I gave up drinking a couple of years ago and I found suddenly going to parties again suddenly really hard. You know, for these reasons, like you had to sort of you know like go, how do I talk to people, like how do I get into that flow? And then recently I feel like I've got to a point where it's sort of gone full circle and it doesn't matter to me.

Speaker 2:

Now, you know, it's just like, I'm just me, whatever, you know and it's been nice to hear, because I'm trying to sort of start that journey myself right, yeah, okay, good, yeah, I mean I think it's a great journey.

Speaker 1:

Good luck, I don't mean like good luck, no, but I think it's a great journey to go on, but I think it's one that you have to find for yourself, isn't it? You know, like I don't don't preach it to anyone, but it's like when you find it yourself, it's a nice, nice route. Yeah, great, good, that's nice. I've kind of needed to hear that today. So it's great, oh, cool, good stuff. And I mean, I think I mean being like a multi-hyphenate. It feels like a lot of what your work does, in whatever form, has a connection to underground culture and, and particularly UK underground culture. And I was wondering, I mean, this is a very big question, um and I hope it's not too big, or if there's a way to break it down but what for you, of all of these things that does? Underground culture feels like such a nebulous term that can be used in so many different ways. But like, what is your understanding of it? Or like, how do you define it? Or do you just not define it?

Speaker 2:

that is a big question. Yeah, um, I mean, I guess, like literally, it's anything that's not mainstream culture, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But then everything started on the underground. So it is really difficult to sort of draw the line sometimes. You know, the underground informs the mainstream. Everything mainstream started as grassroots, didn't it? So it's difficult, but I think I guess I would define it as like.

Speaker 2:

I guess that's where, like, revolutionism is yeah, and that's where like revolutionism is yeah, and that's where, like, the fight still is, that's where anti-establishmentarianism is, that's where, like, the anti-systemic stuff still thrives and still evolves. And I think that's where you know if it's if it's not going with the status quo and if it's not playing up to capitalism.

Speaker 1:

Essentially, yeah then it's underground you, you kind of really hit the nail of head of something in terms of talking about like the kind of revolutionary aspects of it. Like where I live in berlin, there's been like quite a big polarity between you know what is seen as being underground culture. Like you take like the most obvious example, like bergheim and the the kind of popularity of it of like the TikTok techno kind of thing, and I don't want to be too down on that because I realize that I'm also like a 51 year old guy and you know it gets to be a bit like the sort of sausage DJ thing of just being down on anything that is you know thing of just being down on anything that is you know, but at the same time as that, like there is something about having places for community that are, um, where people can, you know, like the underground culture being representative of something that stays outside of the mainstream because it's there for people to just explore their own identity in a safe way, you know.

Speaker 2:

I guess it's tough, isn't it, because it's like you don't want to stop a place from being successful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But then if you say oh well, you're not underground anymore because you're popular, like does that even make sense?

Speaker 1:

I know? And it becomes a bit about popularity as well, doesn't it Even just like the people wanting to keep something underground like they're being like the popular underground kids by saying that it's a little bit contradictive, isn't it like?

Speaker 2:

why do you want to stop something from being popular and then why is it suddenly not cool anymore? You know like, but I guess that's. Then we're getting to the whole concept of what is cool, what is cool? Cool is not cool, you know, oh god, it's like it's quite an existential sort of philosophy, isn't it like? When you think about it, what is underground? Other terms like up front, like up front house versus like mainstream house. There's those two different things. Like, is up front house more underground than mainstream house? And if so, why?

Speaker 1:

and you come into, like, the sonics of like what underground is sonically like totally, and but then you, but then you'll like you'll, you'll have someone that will make like a record that uses sounds that were once considered really mainstream in an underground way, and then everything flips back around again.

Speaker 2:

Think about garage as well. Like it's almost like mainstream even mainstream garage is still actually sounds really underground you know, like oh my God, it's crazy.

Speaker 1:

It is crazy, isn't it? It's crazy and I was wondering how that informs your choices with curation, like, do you are there like records, uh tunes, that you come up where you you might love and you might even see how you could use them, but you feel like perhaps they're not what you're trying to put across at that time?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think I'd be lying if I said no. I think definitely that the whole sort of you know my ethos. It's not even on purpose as well. I guess it's just like how I've sort of grown to. My style to be is that I play underground music, but I mean whether whether who defines it as that is is still unknown. But like I definitely do sometimes think, oh, that's a little bit on the mainstream side, I don't know if it's kind of reflective of what I'm about I will definitely hold myself back sometimes from playing what I like, which is shit. Now I'm saying it out loud. I'm like you should just play what you bloody like. But it's just.

Speaker 2:

It just is what it is, isn't it but I think because because also what the thing is, to be honest, I think I do sometimes hold it quite a good like place where I'm crossing over a little bit, because you know, when I've done shows on Radio One, for example, like I'll play a lot of, like a sort of softer, I guess I'll play a more accessible style of my sound, and you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not afraid, in a sense, to to, to go a little bit further into that way, because if I genuinely like something, I genuinely like something. Yeah, but it is a shame that we have these sort of invisible rules, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

definitely, definitely. I feel, um, yeah, no, definitely, and I feel like, as a curator, like you know that's part of the part of something that goes with being a creator, about finding your own space within those rules, and you know that's part of the part of something that goes with being a creator, about finding your own space within those rules, and you know, if something is a little bit more accessible but you know it works with your vibe, then it it kind of it can also sort of become more underground by just the nature of how you play it. I guess, and in the context and some djs that do that really well.

Speaker 2:

Like a good friend of mine one man, steve bishop, he told me once he was like there's no such thing as a guilty pleasure. Yeah, if it gives, if it brings you pleasure, there should be no guilt in it. You know, you just bloody play it totally, totally someone like giles peterson does that really well. Just not afraid to just do what you want in that moment. So yeah, you'll be brave though, man you've got to be brave.

Speaker 1:

But then sometimes I've had experiences where that's paid off so beautifully, like I've seen a DJ play like throw in, like the biggest U-turn curveball, like you know, playing like Rihanna and a techno set or something, and it's just like it feels like it's like a hot day and it suddenly starts raining on you a bit and you're like yeah yeah, a bit of relief.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, also, I've seen it go horribly wrong. Yeah, it's like it does. There's no middle ground. No, no, it's no middle ground. It either goes exceptionally well or like a lead balloon and everyone's like okay, supposedly. Yeah, it can also feel a bit like are you doing that for a reaction? You know what I mean. Yeah, I'll be like right place, right time.

Speaker 1:

Wow, the stars have to align for it to go well it's like telling a joke to like your in-laws or something you know it could go one way or the other and I finished my set at glastonbury with my stonebridge set.

Speaker 2:

I finished it with sweet like chocolate, shanks and bigfoot oh classic I mean I would still consider that it's a classic, but I still wouldn't say it's necessarily that mainstream, you know. But I don't know, maybe that goes back to our question. I guess it is.

Speaker 1:

I mean I don't know, but I remember the production sound of that is very, very lo-fi, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's got those strings but they sound very like clunky and pretty two-step going, yeah, yeah yeah, I finished my set with that and I was so nervous but I was like fuck it, ryan, it's Glastonbury and um, it kind of like I think it went quite well. But I was almost too nervous to even look at the crowd so I just put the tune on, I did the changeover and I was like see ya so that was only like a week ago.

Speaker 1:

You were talking about Glastonbury this year. Yeah, how was that this year?

Speaker 2:

it was all right, I think, to be honest, I had a bit of a tough one. It can be a uh, it can be a very overwhelming, exhausting place. Um, I had some really great moments, but I also I did struggle a little bit just with um. I just had some bad luck, like I had my music stolen and oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Like a few assholes sometimes just ruin everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But I still managed to have a really great time. So, yeah, it was good and it was tough.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I think when you know like, if people haven't gone to Glastonbury, it's hard to kind of emphasise that it is basically a city, isn't it? It's a city that just is built out of a field in Somerset or whichever, wherever it is. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You can't really lose like you can lose yourself. You can lose yourself, but you can't. You have to look after yourself way more than you would at like a smaller festival, like you have to really be on it in terms of like exhaustion, you know, and I think I've been going for about 12 years, 12 years and I still forget I've eaten once in about 24 hours. So, um, yeah, I think just it was a reminder that, um, it's important to really look after yourself yes, that is a thing.

Speaker 1:

Actually, that's something I actually often quite like to ask DJs as well was, like we knew we talked a little bit about like you know, sort of balance earlier. Earlier on we started off talking about balance, but I was wondering, like, as a dj, like, um, you know, and being, as you say, being in your 30s now, like it's not all hedonism, is it? You know, like, how do you keep a level and a balance on like, like the, just the sort of touring and the sort of the late hours and that that kind of thing, where I think the stuff that where if someone's not careful, they can like go the other way with if I'm honest, I'm still trying to master it fair enough, fair enough I mean, I am therapized, if that's what so I like to use that, sometimes Like I'm in therapy.

Speaker 2:

I've been in therapy for a long time, so yeah, I have like bi-weekly therapy. I've literally just had therapy this morning.

Speaker 1:

Oh, brilliant.

Speaker 2:

I yeah, I just I think it's really important to keep up with therapy for me personally. I'm medicated as well and I just have to, like take a step out a lot of the time. I think it's important to remember that drugs and alcohol all the time is not sustainable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's really important to. For me, it's really important to book in time with my family in between as well, because they give me that sense of like nourishment and care that you can't, you're not ever going to find Well, if you're lucky, but you're not going to find consistently in this sort of party lifestyle that it, you know, inevitably does revolve around. So, yeah, it's just important to sort of like force yourself to get that balance in yeah, definitely what does like.

Speaker 2:

So we have a goal to work towards as well, like I ran the hackney half marathon recently. So for something like that, where it's like, hey, I can't, I need to make sure that I'm nourishing my body and doing enough of this in order to reach that goal, then that, then you know, this sort of all falls into place nicely.

Speaker 1:

I think I need to sign up for something else actually and just finally, well, like what would you tell your younger self, like if you could give yourself, like younger self, one piece of advice? Like, just as you were sort of, just as you were starting to kind of work for rinse and it was starting to become like a kind of actual visible thing with an impact so you know, I think about this all the time because I get asked this a lot and I've never really been able to find the answer.

Speaker 2:

what I really want my younger self to do is to just trust yourself a bit more. Yeah, relax, just really try and relax. Really trust yourself. You really are going to be able to do this in your own way. There's no rush. Just give yourself a bit of a break. Stop being so bloody hard on yourself. I was so hard on myself when I was younger. I was an anxious mess really really was and it makes me.

Speaker 2:

it makes me sad thinking about it because it feels like I feels like I put so much energy and I wasted so much time being so worried about stuff that was never gonna happen, you know yeah um, just you know, just give yourself a break, love yourself a little bit more yeah, so you'd kind of go back and give yourself a hug oh, big time me. I'm a legend that's gonna be you soon emerald.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. That was great. Thank you, okay. So that was me, paul hamford, talking with emerald for the lost and sound podcast, and we had that conversation on first day, the 10th of july 2025. Thank you so much, emerald, for your time and thoughts there. Uh, the limerence ep is out on her precious stones label and that's out on the 1st of august 2025, and so, yeah, thanks for listening.

Speaker 1:

If you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe, give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice.

Speaker 1:

It really, really, really really does help. And if you like what I do and you want to hear more of what I do, you can check out my bbc radio documentary the man who smuggled punk rock across the berlin wall, by heading on over to the bbc sounds app or on the bbc world service home page, and my book coming to berlin is still available in good bookshops or via the publisher's website, velocity press. Lost and sound is sponsored by audio technica, the global but family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality yet affordable products, because they believe the high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world. Head on over to audiotechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. The music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of lost and sound is by tom giddens, and so, yeah, thanks so much for listening. I hope you're having a really great one today and I'll chat to you soon, thank you.