Lost And Sound
Lost and Sound is a podcast exploring the most exciting and innovative voices in underground, electronic, and leftfield music worldwide. Hosted by Berlin-based writer Paul Hanford, each episode features in-depth, free-flowing conversations with artists, producers, and pioneers who push music forward in their own unique way.
From legendary innovators to emerging mavericks, Paul dives into the intersection of music, creativity, and life, uncovering deep insights into the artistic process. His relaxed, open-ended approach allows guests to express themselves fully, offering an intimate perspective on the minds shaping contemporary sound.
Originally launched with support from Arts Council England, Lost and Sound has featured groundbreaking artists including Suzanne Ciani, Peaches, Laurent Garnier, Chilly Gonzales, Sleaford Mods, Nightmares On Wax, Graham Coxon, Saint Etienne, Ellen Allien, A Guy Called Gerald, Jean Michel Jarre, Liars, Blixa Bargeld, Hania Rani, Roman Flügel, Róisín Murphy, Jim O’Rourke, Yann Tiersen, Thurston Moore, Lias Saoudi (Fat White Family), Caterina Barbieri, Rudy Tambala (A.R. Kane), more eaze, Tesfa Williams, Slikback, NikNak, and Alva Noto.
Paul Hanford is a writer, broadcaster, and storyteller whose work bridges music, culture, and human connection. His debut book, Coming to Berlin, is available in all good bookshops.
Lost and Sound is for listeners passionate about electronic music, experimental sound, and the people redefining what music can be.
Lost And Sound
Jagz Kooner
What does it mean to "Be More Weatherall"? This question looms deep in my conversation with Jagz Kooner, one-third of the pioneering electronic trio Sabres of Paradise, as we explore the reissue of their groundbreaking first two albums and reflect on the enduring legacy of the late Andrew Weatherall.
Thirty years after their original release, Sabersonic and Haunted Dancehall have been given the reissue treatment by Warp Records, coinciding with a reformation of the band for performances at Sydney Opera House and Primavera Sound, amongst places. Jagz gets into how a serendipitous chain of events – beginning with a Q&A at the Golden Lion in Todmorden and the discovery of a forgotten live recording – led to this unexpected new chapter for a project that helped move rave culture beyond the confines of nightclubs.
Throughout our conversation, Weatherall's spirit looms large. His philosophy of "don't look back, every day is year zero" initially made Jagz hesitant to revisit past work, until Weatherall's partner Lizzie offered a poignant perspective: "There is no looking forward now he's gone. All we've got is what he gave us." I get the impression of a real lack of the usual get-the-band-back-together cynicism for this project.
The interview also traces Jagz' evolution from bedroom DJ to acclaimed producer, known for his signature fusion of electronic precision with rock and roll grit. From his work with Primal Scream on "Swastika Eyes" to his game-changing remix for The Charlatans (which inspired Eddie Temple Morris to start his influential radio show), Jagz has consistently embodied Weatherall's ethos of experimentation and boundary-pushing.
Here’s the weekly links section for the Jagz Kooner episode, in your fixed Lost and Sound template style, with the artist-specific links swapped in:
Listen to The Sabres of Paradise via Warp’s Bandcamp
Follow Jagz Kooner:
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Want to go deeper? Grab a copy of my book Coming To Berlin, a journey through the city’s creative underground, via Velocity Press.
And if you’re curious about Cold War-era subversion, check out my BBC documentary The Man Who Smuggled Punk Rock Across The Berlin Wall on the BBC World Service.
You can also follow me on Instagram at @paulhanford for behind-the-scenes bits, guest updates, and whatever else is bubbling up.
Be more Weatherall. What do I mean by that? Well, you're going to find out, because that is the theme, I guess, of this, the de facto theme of today's show, and that is the ethos my guest today, Jagz Kooner, extols as we talk about the reissues of the very seminal Sabres of Paradise's first two albums. Hi, paul here, welcome to Lost in Sound, the show that goes deep, with artists shaping music and culture from the underground up. But before we get going to Lost in Sound, the show that goes deep, with artists shaping music and culture from the underground up. But before we get going, lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica. Over 60 years old and still a family-run company. They make headphones, microphones, turntables and cartridges. Their gear is studio-grade, affordable and built on the belief that great sound should be for everyone. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to Audio-Technicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Okay, let's do the show, shall we? Thank you, hello and welcome to episode 180 of Lost in Sound.
Speaker 1:I'm Paul Hanford, I'm your host, I'm an author, a broadcaster and a lecturer, and each week on Lost in Sound I have conversations with artists who work outside the box about music, creativity and about how they're navigating life through their art. So whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's great to have you along, and this week you're about to hear a chat with Jagz Kooner. These days, as a producer and remixer, jags is the go-to guy for artists that want a visceral electronic edge to their rock and roll, or maybe a visceral rock and roll edge to their electronica. He has a sound that is all his, and if you've danced in an indie club at any point over the last three decades as I certainly have chances are you felt his fingerprints on the sound, whether through his work with Primal Scream, oasis, soul Wax, massive Attack, royal Trucks, the Charlatans or I don't know tons of others. But we're here today because of Sabres of paradise, the very seminal trio made up of jags, gary burns and a certain mr andrew weverall.
Speaker 1:Now, I remember having a cassette of sabersonic, their first album. This is going back about 30 years or so. Um, and the sabers were a real new thing at the time to me anyway, the. I think it saw a lot of action being played in cars late at night, whilst I was probably smoking a lot of weed at the time, and I'm not really saying that the Sabres of Paradise made stoner music, but what they did is help move rave ideas outside of just the nightclub and into other environments. It's no surprise that the the first two sabres albums were out on warp records that were at the time establishing this whole kind of idm thing, which, again, I don't feel that what sabres were doing totally fills in line with that. But it was. It was moving something into a different direction. It was moving club culture into a different direction. Their music had a darker, more cinematic energy to it. There was a lot of dub in there and their first two albums, sabersonic and haunted dancehall, have just been given the reissue treatment on warp records, which is why we're having this conversation today.
Speaker 1:Not only that, but jags has got the band back together, obviously sadly without Andrew Weatherall, um. So we talk about these formative years and we talk a lot about working with Weatherall and about the kind of principles that Weatherall worked under, and I feel this episode is very much like a Weatherall tribute episode. But I think it's also a tribute episode to jags, who's one of those real troopers and, at least in terms of the hour I spent talking with him, a bloody nice guy, um, so there's a little bit of a sound issue with this episode. I do apologize in advance. I had a little bit of a technical issue on my side and I had to use my iPad without my Audio-Technica mic to record the interview. It was just, you know, technical stuff happens sometimes, so I come across a little bit like not the best quality in it, but I think it's a great chat.
Speaker 1:So I hope you enjoy it anyway, and if you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe. Give the show a rating and a review on a platform of your choice. It really, really really does help. But anyway, we had this chat on Friday, the 8th of August 2025. And let's get into it. This is Jagz Kooner on Lost in Sound. That looks like a really nice attractive. Is that your studio we've got in the background?
Speaker 2:This is my little home studio. Yeah, we've got in the background. This is my little home studio. Yeah, um, yeah, it's kind of where I do all of my remixes and productions and do the. This is where we got all of the live stuff together for getting the sabers going again and then we've um, you know, dj'd the other day.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like I've got my, I've got all my drum machines and simps and bits and bobs here, turntables over there and records at the back, and then a whole computer system and bits and bobs here as well. So it's yeah, it's good, and I, you know, I've kind of worked from home now most of the time. It's just like so you don't really need them big posh studios as much as you, you know, costing you a thousand pounds a day. You're looking more at the clock when you are actually about making music because it's so fucking expensive in their places. Um, but yeah, no, it's great, I love it here. It's just a nice way for me to work, because all I do is I just get up in the morning, take the dog for a walk and then this is my man cave, if you want, unless you just I just escape in here and then, uh, just work, you know, while away the hours basically that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:I imagine like the difference between like, yeah, like you say, the old days of going into a studio, like watching the clock. There must have been times where, like, big compromises were made where you just had to think, okay, that has to this. Uh, what I'm doing today has to just stay like that because I've just run out of time.
Speaker 2:I mean, ok, there was benefits and pitfalls. You know, sometimes under pressure you come up with some of your best work. Yeah. Other times, under pressure, you just completely fall apart and have to cobble something together and just get it out the door. Yeah, so you know, there was benefits, you know, and there were disadvantages.
Speaker 2:I think the thing with those old studios was you could go into them with a group of people and the collaborative process was a lot more uh, enjoyable from that point of view. Because now the collaborative process is kind of, you know, I still like going into studios. You know, I'm working with a few bands you know, holy youth movement, who are a new band, and I'm starting out and we go in and we we rehearse the songs up and we talk about the arrangements, we talk about the parts and we kind of sketch things out and then build it up and then send it on its way and and for that kind of thing it's great. But when you're trying to do a collaborative thing online, it's not quite as spontaneous and enjoyable and it's not quite as rewarding as it is being in a room with people to kind of gauge it properly and build it from a point of view of. You know you're interacting with each other in a better form of communication than just staring at each other on a computer screen, you know.
Speaker 2:So, um, but yeah, I still have people come here, you know, when we're mixing and when we put stuff together, two, three people in the room with me as well and we're, you know we'll all talk about stuff and I record vocals in here as well, and you, you know a bit of guitar and bass and it's not that you know the big posh studios we'd go to to record drums. We still do that, but the rest of it now you know. Obviously you know the thing with the music industry now is, you know budgets have been slashed. Your returns from selling music have been slashed. So you know you have to look at your overheads as well and make sure that you know it's still financially viable to you to make music so that it gets out there and you can maybe see a return on it somewhere along the line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's been so many big changes and, like, over these years you've developed a reputation as being like the kind of go-to electronic rock and roll producer, you know so, mixing like the kind of the grit with the precision you know, and all of these types of things you know. But what would you, what would you say, do you? Firstly, do you feel that that like kind of title is appropriate to what you do? Do you relate to that? Or is that something that you, when you hear something like that, you shrug off?
Speaker 2:uh, do you know what it? You know, that's not for me to judge from the point of view of what I do, I just do what I do. And it's other people to try and pigeonhole it or try and quantify it or put it in some kind of, you know, genre-specific tag that they can then easily sell or try and market or whatever. But I think that is quite an appropriate one. I like that. I mean it was.
Speaker 2:You know, I used to do stuff like Wall of Sound, the record label, and Mark Jones used to always say to me that there was only like a couple of people that he thought really meld the electronics with guitars and you know rock and roll kind of thing. And you know he said kind of thing, and and you know he said the only two people that I'd like that do what that well is liam howlett and jags kuna, and so he kind of. You know, when he said that, it kind of to me it was like, yeah, I can relate to being in the same bracket. How lit, you know. You know I don't want to be put in that one.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, and I think the problem is as well, it's like you know, you do a couple of songs in a certain kind of vein, and those songs may do well. And when they do well, other people come knocking on your door saying can I have something like that as well? And so you start ending up having to create songs based on that kind of thing that you did not saying. You copy those ideas over and over again, but you do start becoming the person that everyone goes to, that has the ability to create that thing where they they. They combine electronics with indie bands or rock and roll or whatever, and you know you can get something back. That's in that vein. Yeah, so I'm happy with that tag, I don't mind that tag.
Speaker 1:I really like the way you described that. It reminds me of, uh, like when an actor I wouldn't say gets typecast, but when an actor gets known for doing something very well and um, and then every now and then they might break out and do like a complete curveball. Like, say, tom Cruise in Magnolia, like if you, what would be your like Magnolia moment? Like, is there something that you've always wanted to do? That you know a completely different type of thing that you thought one day I really want to do something like that.
Speaker 2:I mean it's uh, so I have rights. Basically, where I live. I live in a little village called avebury in wiltshire and it is actually a world heritage site because there's actually a stone circle like stonehenge here and um. The stone circle's so big that there's actually a tiny little village in the middle of this stone circle and I live, and I live in the middle of that stone circle. So I've got all these neolithic stones going around the outside of the house here and I've always wanted to kind of make some kind of weird frequency ambient kind of stuff. You know, like my friend you know Richard Norris does it. You know he calls it healing music. He uses certain frequencies in the music he creates and you know it's not thumping electronics and it it's not, you know, indie guitar, thrash bands. It's very mellow, soothing music and I've always wanted to do something like that. But it's just a case of um, I suppose being here that's kind of drawing it out of me.
Speaker 2:But I still haven't done it, but I'd like to throw the odd curveball in there and do something like that.
Speaker 2:But it's, you know it's a weird one because you know, if you try and go back over some of the things that I've done in the past, I mean, you look at some of the sabers of paradise stuff that is on that tip as well, um, and then you can go to the other end of the spectrum where it's, you know, like primal scream and, and you know things like that, where it's just a proper sonic noise attack, you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't know, I I think I'd like to just fire up some machines and just let them just do their own thing and see where it ends up. Problem is, I've just been so busy in doing everything else, but so many other people, that it keeps getting put on the back burner and I don't know, maybe one year, when it all slows down a bit, I might actually look at that a bit more, uh, intently and and actually come up with something that's based around that. But, um, but I'm enjoying what I'm doing at the moment. So maybe that Magnolia moment that Tom Cruise had, that will come to me in years to come.
Speaker 1:I mean it's interesting because I grew up not that far away from you, in Wimborne in Dorset, which is, I guess, maybe like an hour drive away or something, so I know that part of the world very well and it does have that there is that kind of mystical, cosmic side to 40 minutes from glastonbury, yeah, and, and we do get loads of tourists here.
Speaker 2:We get them from all over the world. We get people from, you know, south america, you know from china, and coming in from europe. And it is quite surreal because all it is is just stones standings, and what draws people to them? What is? What's the? What's the? You know what's the? What's the appeal of them? What's? You know? It almost seems to be like there's something about a world gone by where we have no historical records of it.
Speaker 2:We don't know why they built them, how did they do it, what was the technology they employed? What's the point of it? You know, it's like you know why they built them. How did they do it, what was the technology they employed? What's the point of it? You know, it's like, you know, you look at some of the stones. Actually, some of the stones from stonehenge actually come from about half a mile from where I, at where I am at the moment, because there's this bit where, at the top of where I am, it's called the valley of the stones and it's just sarsen stones and and they got them from there and they transported them all the way to salisbury. It's like well, could you not find any stones near, or what's? What's the significance of this? It's like they you know they didn't have cars or anything, or lorries. You know they would have to roll them on bits of tree stumps and stuff and that's a fucking long way to go. Like that's a commitment. It's a massive commitment. It's huge.
Speaker 2:And you know some of the stones. You know the ones outside the front of my house as well. They're, they're massive. You know. Uh, why? What was the significance of putting them here?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's really weird, because I'm actually where I am, where the ley lines. I've got two ley lines that go right the the area as well, and then you've got the stones, and then you've got silvery hill and it's it's. You know there's, there's something about it. That's what drew these people here and what did they go? Yeah, this is pretty damn cool, or did they feel some kind of pull or a magnetic energy, or I don't know, but it is, it is.
Speaker 2:It's something about that that still people connect to. They keep coming back here and everybody's like. You know, I mean, stonehenge is different. From the point of view it looks spectacular, but you can't actually sit by the stones and just keep moving around in a circle. Here you can come and just hug a stone and sit down with it. I mean, I've seen it.
Speaker 2:People, you know, you get up in the morning, you open the windows and there's people just like holding on to a stone and then you look out the window three hours later they're still there holding the stone. I don't know what the appeal is, but it's. It's beautiful here and it's really lovely and it is a magical part of the world and and I suppose in a way, you know with Glastonbury and you know the stone circles down in Dorset and Devon and Cornwall and stuff as well, and people have this connection with with neolithic, prehistoric times where we have no historical record or no factual pieces of uh, of writing or anything to go by to actually know what it was about, and so that the mystery of it really appeals to people as well.
Speaker 1:I suppose yeah, definitely I think, particularly in this day and age where, like, most facts are just our fingertips. So having a few things where there is just this mystery that we'll never really know is creates an extra layer of magic around it.
Speaker 2:You know it's. So here we, you know, when it's the solstice, we get a lot of people come. We get like four, five thousand people come to the stones and they stay out all night and then they watch the sunrise and then you know, you have the same thing going on at stonehenge. And you know, and the thing with stonehenge, when they did start looking at it and and they started looking at the alignment of the stones and how completely precise they are to certain seasons of the year and the, the solstice and the equinox and all that kind of stuff, so when you look back on it it's like, well, how the hell did they do that? You know we had, we now have satellites and we have really precise geometrical equipment that we can measure things with they. They were just using their eyes and engaging it by that. So, um, I suppose there's a mystery and an appeal about that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely, and it's sort of like cheesy uh radio d DJ segue into the mystery appeal or the mysterious appeal of the Sabres of Paradise films and again like Sabres of Paradise getting back together. I mean what you felt like it was a good time to revisit the project.
Speaker 2:I mean just tying in what we were talking about as well, the thing with Gnostic Sonics, with Andrew Weddle. Andrew came to Silbury Hill, which is just here, and had a an epiphany about what he had to do as well and the music he created and I think, probably because of the fact that he did a load of mushrooms and acid when he came here, probably helped the cause or whatever. But you know, this is this quite poignant that I've come here and this is a place that I considered quite special as well. Um, but on the sabers thing, I think it was a really weird thing, right, so it was um, I I've always gone by what Andrew told me.
Speaker 2:Andrew always used to be this kind of I mean, he was a very inspiring figure and he was great fun to be around in the studio. But he always used to say to us you know, don't look back. You know, today is year zero. The remixes or the productions we did last week, that's done. We now got to do something new. We got to push the boundaries further. We got to don't sit and rest on our laurels, you know, and just replicate what we did last week. Let's try and experiment more, let's try something new. Let's try and not look at that and and and apply those same techniques and ideas. What we do this week and he so he was always striving constantly to try new things out, experiment, do things that you know we we hadn't tried out and and sometimes that were things that you know people would have. Well, you shouldn't really be doing that, because that's not really how you're supposed to put music together or whatever. So for me, it was always a case of go by what Andrew said Look forward, don't look back. Every day is a new day of experimentation and trying stuff out and seeing what you can do. And then I kind of got a message from andrew's brother, ian, saying you know, it's 30 years of this was in 2023, it's like 30 years, maybe we should mark it. And I was like, uh, yeah, maybe we should. But then I've kind of had andrew on my shoulder going jags, don't look back, look forward, keep yeah stuff. And it was only when I spoke to Lizzie, andrew's partner at the time, you know, tragically, after he passed, she was like, well, look, jags, there is no looking forward now he's gone. We can't you know, we can't do anything new now. All we've got is what he gave us and all we can do is share that with the world because there is nothing else now. You know, you know he won't be, you know you won't be making anything new. There won't be any zero, that's it. It's it's done. He's gone. We have to just go by what we've got, that he's given us. And I was like, yeah, ok, that's really valid.
Speaker 2:And then I kind of got asked to do this Q&A at the Golden Lion in Todmorton for this fan page called the Flight Path Estate, which is Martin Branigan and Adam Turner and a whole load of, like diehard Weatherall fans who literally are the oracle of everything that Andrew Weatherall ever did. I mean they can actually like they've got mixes of there's a thing called the Weather Drive where it's just full of DJ mixes that Andrew did. All of his sets, from wherever he played, have been archived and you know they've got a record of every song that's in every one of those mixes. And they know I mean there's a number of times I've actually phoned Martin going Martin, what did I do that year was the name that I made, and and they'll be like oh well, jack, that was that one. And I'm like thank me, you know, because you know, when you're making music, you make it and you move on to the next thing. Yeah, it's not about reminiscing or wallowing in that thing that you did 10 years ago and and not moving forward from that.
Speaker 2:So so you know, know, I got asked to do this Q&A. They were like well, jack, would you be up for coming up to mark the 30th anniversary of Sabre Sonic, the release of the album Sabre Sonic and this was in November 23,. Because that would have been 30 years. And I was like, yeah, of course. Yeah, no problem, I'll come up and do a Q&A and talk about the album and about the Sabres of Paradise. And they were like, well, oh, that'd be brilliant. And they were like, well, also, would you be interested enough for coming to DJ as well at this event? And I was like, yeah, of course, no problem. They said, well, would you be willing to play some of the old remixes and productions? You did, because you know we were all massive fans of that. I was like, yeah, of course, no problem.
Speaker 2:So I put the phone down and I was like, shit, I better go listen to that album I made 30 years ago, because I just I can't remember it at all, because that's the thing you know if you're a producer or musician, you move on to the next thing. And so I had to. Then I spent a week where I had to then listen to the albums, do a bit of research on on same sonic, because I was you know, I'm going to try and remember things because people are going to ask me questions about it I don't remember. So I had to do a bit of research and find out a bit about it and remember things about it and started listening to the song. So I was like, oh yeah, I remember how we put that together and blah, blah. And then for the dj sets, you know, everything that we did back then was, you know, it's all on vinyl, and so I had to like convert the vinyl to wabs. So I had to like rip them all into the computer and then remaster them and stuff, and and I was listening to all the going, oh god, yeah, I forgot about that. That's a really good thing. I've forgotten about how we put that together and it started all coming back to me. So I had this whole week of just kind of familiarizing myself with something that I did 30 plus years ago and then. So, so, so did that and you know, uh, you know, it got nearer to the time that I was going to do the q a and then, um, I got in touch with gary burns, you know, who was a member of the sabers, and I said, guess you you wouldn't be up for coming to the golden line. It told me what to do a q a would you? Because, like, it'd be great fun to have you there as well. And he's like, well, because I actually live in bridlington, in yorkshire now, so it's an hour and a half on the train or whatever, but yeah, I'm up for it. So he came down as well. So basically, both of us did the q a and it went really well. I did, I dj'd. That went really well as well.
Speaker 2:But before we went on stage to do the Q&A, rob Fletcher, who's part of the Flight Path Estate as well, he used to run a club in Manchester called Herbal Tea Party, and Herbal Tea Party. It was a great club. You know, justin Robertson DJed there, andrew Weatherall DJed there and a whole load of other people went up and played there as well and it's just like a really good club and the band Sabres of Paran. We actually went up and played live there as well. We actually did. That was our warm-up show for when we then went on tour with Primal Screen. So we went up there and played this live show and it was great. You know it's a great club. We had a brilliant time.
Speaker 2:And at the Q&A Rob was like hey, jags, do you mind if I play a live recording of you lot from my club in 1994, I think it was, or 95, that I've got that. We took a recording from the front of the house desk when you played. And I was like oh, wow, ok, well, amazing. No, yeah, that's totally fine. And he started playing it before we went on stage and I was there with Gary and we're listening to it. And I was like Gaz, this is us playing live, because we never kept any recordings or whatever. And you know we were. You know we only did about 10, 15 gigs in total. And they played it and it sounded fucking great. And I was like Gaz, this is us from like 94, 95. I was like sounds amazing. He was like, yeah, it does. So. Then I got Rob Fletcher to. You know. I was like this is brilliant, rob, can you send me the recording and he was like, yeah, no problem. So he sent me the recording.
Speaker 2:The Q&A went great, the DJ set went great. Everybody was like, you know, oh, when are you going to do a re-release of the album? Because you know it was about years ago. I've moved house since then, I've lost the vinyl, my CD's worn out and blah, blah, blah. So there was a lot of interest from that point of view as well. So that night really was the springboard for rekindling my love of sabers, really. Um. So then we came back and then got the live recording. I listened to it and I was like fucking hell, this is really, really good.
Speaker 2:And that night was what set the whole ball in motion about re-releasing the albums, getting the live band together and getting it out there. And then, you know, after that I kind of consulted and spoke to all the original live band, because andrew andrew never played live with us. He did a couple of shows but he just didn't really enjoy it. So I spoke to you know me and gary. I said to gary I said do you be up for fans getting the live band together? And he was like, and he was like brilliant. And he was like, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:And then I spoke to Rich Fair, who was in the band Red Snapper as well as Sabre, and they were playing Golden Lion the following night from when we did the Q&A, so they were coming up and he was like, do you want to just hang around and DJ for us after we play? I was like, yeah, cool. So I saw Rich, who was the drummer in Sabres, and I was like Rich, how would you feel if we kind of got the live band back together and did a few shows, you know? And he was like, yeah, I'm up for it, brilliant. And then I tracked down Nick Abnett, who was our bass player and he also went on to be in Death in Vegas and did a whole tour of a load of punk bands. And I spoke to Nick and Nick was like, yeah, I'm definitely up for it. And then got in touch with Phil Mossman who was the guitar player. Phil had since moved to New York and joined this fly-by-night band I don't know if anything came of them called LCD Sound System. Never heard of them.
Speaker 1:No, I know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, so sound system and, uh, never heard of them. No, I know, I don't know, it's just so anyway. So he was with them for ages as well and, um, I was like phil, do you fancy getting? He was like fuck yeah. So then I, you know, I got the okay to prove from all the band. And then I, you know, I I kind of reached out to a friend of mine, alex bruford, who was, uh, an agent who used to be in a band called the infidels that were on wall of sound that I produced, where I did that electronic rock and roll sound for them, and alex is now a really big agent and I spoke to him about it and he was like, oh, you know, let me check.
Speaker 2:And and he did and got this interest coming back saying, oh, we'd love to have you at sydney opera house, love to have you here and do this. You know primavera. As a matter of fact, the guy who put on Primavera was like, oh my God, I can't believe it, it's the Sabres of Paradise. He was like, you know, he messaged me going. He goes, jags, I'm so glad that you're going to get back together to do stuff, because one year I hitchhiked from Barcelona to Carcassonne for the Covenanza Festival to go and see andrew dj. So he was a massive fan, so there was a lot of love out there all around.
Speaker 1:So that's what kind of got the whole thing going, and that's where we kind of started to just then piece everything together and get it going really that's really nice to hear that, because it's um, it sounds from what you're saying like completely uncynical, like completely driven by just getting back into it and the love of it, and yeah, exactly that's exactly what it was.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, the thing was after Andrew passed away unexpectedly and tragically. I mean that was a real fucking jolt to my system. When that happened we hadn't spoken for a little while but you know I'd see him go dj every now and again and you know he'd do a mix and I'd message him saying love that mix. And he'd be, you know, you know, so we kind of kept in touch a little bit. So you know so when, when, when I got the call saying he'd passed away, it was like fucking devastating and it was devastating for a lot of people. I mean, you saw the outpouring of love on the radio stations, it was on Newsnight, it was on the TV. There was just the outpouring of love and grief that was everywhere, was was. I mean, for me, at the last time I saw anything like that happened as a collective shock to the system was when David Bowie died.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking of that. Yeah, it was like it really reminded me of that, that feeling.
Speaker 2:It just came out of nowhere, like that. It was like it was exactly like that. Know, it was like, you know, when bowie went. You know, I I've got friends who kind of were connected to him as well, so it was a bit of a shock, but collectively, as a music fan, for so many people it was a fucking proper jolt to the system. So, and then when it happened to andrew, it was the outpouring of grief and love was just amazing. So, um, and at that time it was just that it was really everybody was numb, uh, everybody was reaching out to each other to connect with each other and to console each other and comfort each other and just kind of share stories.
Speaker 2:And uh, it was one of those ones where I kind of was like, okay, I'm probably gonna have to say something about this, I'm gonna have to almost prepare like a little statement. You know, you know people are uh, it's really weird with with grief. You know, when people I know and people I love, whose music I have been inspired by, who I consider to be the people who've been an inspiration to me, I don't really post about it on social media. It's for me it's a moment of inward reflection and I'll you know, I'll go listen to their albums, I'll go check out their movies, I'll you know it, for me it's a personal moment, but I think one of the things now is it is like, you know, you have to kind of share it on social media and I couldn't just be with my grief for myself, you know is people were expecting me to say something. Yeah, people wanted to me to put something out there and I did, and it was really lovely the messages I got back and really lovely sentiment from everybody and um and so so. So you know it was a really um, it was a really fucking ouch moment and and and and from that I think what happened was it rekindled a lot of people's love of what Andrew did over the years. You know, sometimes you know when they're there, you just take it for granted that they're just going to carry on making great music and they're always going to be there doing bits and bobs, and andrew was really young, so you don't expect somebody of his age to just go like that. You know it was a really. It was a really. It was a really kind of numbing moment and and I and I and I think from that it was like when people were reaching out and going say something, do something or whatever, and and and and.
Speaker 2:So then the interest in what andrew did over his career really started to. People just were wanting to connect with him in any way possible. They were reaching out to listen to his music. They were going back through the weather drive and checking out old dj mixes that he did and were just you know.
Speaker 2:And then when I went to his funeral, then we went to the wake afterwards, you know, we it was just a really, really big party kind of thing. It was just dancing and that's what he would have wanted, I think as well. So it was like, uh, you know, it's almost like, well, just because he's gone, the party can't stop. You know, it's a kind of that mentality. He would have been like that as well. It's like, look, if I go, somebody else has got to take the reign, somebody's got to carry it on. We, you know, we, you need to keep spreading that love and keep making sure everybody's dancing and stuff. So I think from that point of view, for me it was like, okay, we're gonna have to do something here, because people really want to connect with it. They're longing for it.
Speaker 2:A lot of the songs we did, you know, jesus christ, you know I've had like people telling me that you know, like smoke, belch, beatless or other tracks are like that's what we played at our wedding. Uh, you know, it's what they're gonna play when they lay me to sleep. I mean, you know one of the flight path estate guys, adam. You know his son, you know they buried his son to that piece of music. So he's yeah, so it's really, it's a really fucking. You know it means a lot to a lot of people. So from that point of view he's like right, okay, well, we better, we better try and do something and we better do it well so that people will look at that and go thank you for giving that to us, rather than it was a haphazard, shoddily, dumb thing. And so that's where the whole reformation came about and which led to the band playing at fabric and sydney opera house and primavera stuff.
Speaker 2:But you know, and then re-releasing the records as well, because there was a. You know, and then re-releasing the records as well because there was a. You know, we've never re-released any records. There was never. You know, there was never any talk of re-releasing it, because Andrew was always like let's move on, let's do a new album, let's do new stuff, let's get new shit going. Don't fucking. That was 30 years ago, man Don't from that point of view. But you know, as lizzie pointed out, there is no new music. There is nothing else. We all we've got is what was created in in the time he was doing what he's doing. So we've got to cherish that as much as we can, and that's where. That's where we got to with it.
Speaker 1:That's where we are now yeah, what would you say, um, aside from the music, maybe more in terms of like ethos or philosophy or something would is is.
Speaker 2:Is has been andrew's legacy that he's left the people oh, don't compromise, don't, yeah, don't compromise, don't sell yourself short, just keep pushing boundaries, keep experimenting. And you know there's a saying that everyone says now, which is be more weatherall you know, and that's. I think that really sums it up. You know, because Andrew was all about looking for new music, trying out new things. Whether it was his art or whether it was his writing or whether it was the music he was producing, it was always about let's keep keep being creative, keep, keep, keep that side of you live, don't let that diminish. And you know the whole, you know be more weather. All saying is really poignant. You know, I've got like, uh, I'll show you, I've got a, you might be, I just see it up there. I've got a painting that somebody sent me of andrew um, just up there at the top, and yes, I can see it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just for just for the podcast listeners as a as as, as jack says, there's a really nice painting of andrew up there and yeah, and so that's always looking over me when I'm working, you know um.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just be more weather. All this is a great way of describing it really.
Speaker 1:I think these things grow as well, don't they? I remember like when I heard the news um, it reminded me as well of John Peel going. Yeah, it was like actually stopped the day. You know, I've never. I've never met him in my life you remember that moment.
Speaker 1:You remember that moment, yeah, when you found out, it's that, yeah, absolutely it's that kind of thing and I feel like, yeah, yeah, that Be More. Weatherall has sort of spread, like you see it, in up and coming DJs. Now, like I live in Berlin, there's this sort of. I feel like a lot of the sort of dark gothy techno here has its roots in, like you know, the fopping gristle and the industrial and the rock and roll and you know, even if it doesn't immediately sound like it, it it comes from the same tree, you know yeah, well, that whole industrial sound, uh, I mean we had the club sabersonic in in crucible lane in london.
Speaker 2:That I mean that was just. You know, it was such a great club. Uh, you know it. You know it was one of the first times that the chemical brothers djed together as well. You know we had Richie Horton coming over doing his decks and effects and EQing and mad shit, and it was that was a revelation. You know, we had Slam come down and DJ. We had, you know, just so many great DJs and for us, going from the studio to the club was just just really incredible and that whole thing it is that.
Speaker 2:It's that punk ethos. You know that diy ethos. It's that kind of like, well, if no one's really going to engage with us, we'll fuck it, we'll start our own thing and and do it and see how it pans out. And it just sprung from that. So, you know, a little while ago, you know, another dear friend passed away. You know, uh, you know, you know douglas mccarthy from nitsa reb and, and that's another person who was, I'm just gonna do what the fuck I'm gonna do if everybody, anybody likes it, that's a bonus. So, yeah, you know, I think that the the whole thing with the techno scene, I think the whole thing with, like, the music scene that's kind of developed in the underground. It's where we all come from, it's where the sabre sprung from and it's, you know, it's just like dark, dingy nightclubs in the basements or the back rooms of main rooms where we were playing the alternative music that weren't allowed to be played in the moon main room because they didn't think there'd be enough people into it.
Speaker 1:It's all of a sudden now it's everywhere and you can really hear it in a track like um, clock factory, off of, say, the sonic, it's got that. Um, you know, there's a little bit of like you can hear where, like, there's a little bit of Screamadelica, the influence of that, but it's like the dark of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know, we had a lot of the same technology and a lot of the same synths and drum machines that were used by Primal Scream on Screamadelica delica, and then, of course, we had andrew weatherall with his record collection, which really was the icing on the cake of well, if you, that's about as close as cream and delica in the production outfit as you can possibly get. So so, from from that point of view, yeah, yeah, we were very connected to primal screen. We were, you know, we were really kind of not label mates, but we were stable mates, you know. So, yeah, it really was.
Speaker 1:You know, we're very similar production values yeah, and later on, like towards the end of the decade you know, you came on board with, uh, big parts of exterminator and, uh, this was sticker eyes which you know, I think, what. What kind of role did that have in in your life? Because I feel like that was a point where it felt like, um, like the scream had kind of gone back to something that they, you know they've gone deeper and darker and more punky and more noise layered and it felt like maybe this was like an opportunity where we see like what, all of the stuff that you've done since, I feel like you can, you can really sort of see like a big part of the foundation of this energy that has come out of that moment, really that album absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean. So the whole thing with primal scream is um, you know, going back to what I was saying about, you know we played herbal tea party before we went that's our warm-up gig before we did the give out tour with primal scream, which was two of the most rock and roll weeks of my life and a lot of the bad um and and yeah, and we teamed up with primal scream then and we, you know, we played manchester, we did two nights at barrel lands and you know, we played leeds and then we came down and played two nights at the shepherd's bush empire in london and then we came down and played two nights at the Shepherds Bush Empire in London and then we did the following night at Brixton Academy. The all nighter at Brixton Academy has gone down in history as one of the most you know is basically they broke the record for the number of people on the guest list and then they also broke the upstairs bar taking record, which has since never been beaten. But we on that tour we really you know the sabres really bonded with primal scream. You know we were, you know, prior to that we've done a couple of mixes and we knew each other, but we really bonded with the whole of primal scream, you know. Uh, so much so that andrew innis from the band is. You know, he's one of my best friends. Now I'm actually godfather to one of his daughters as well, so you know, we've got this connection as well. So from that, you know, we kept in touch. Sabres split up.
Speaker 2:I did some work with David Holmes and then, you know, I got a call from Andrew Innes going hey, song can't get it right. You sound like, well, you are the perfect person to knock it out of the park. Would you be up for working on it? And I was like, yeah, cool. So it was like, yes, it's a song called swastika rise. We can't get it right. Do you want to come in and sort it out? And uh, yeah, just went in there and worked with Andrew and Bobby on it and it came out the way it came out. And yeah, you're right, that was the blueprint. I mean, this is the thing you know when people hear that. It was one of those things where it was like, fuck, I want something like that now as well.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, I did a few mixes. I did one for the Charlatans which was kind of integrating the electronics with the rock and roll as well. As a matter of fact, the mix that I did for the charlatans was the reason that Eddie Temple Morris, who used to be on Radio X, xfm, started his own radio show. Basically was like you know, they had a playlist meeting at XFM as it was back then. And he was like you know, they were like, right, we've got to play the charlatans, do we put it on the playlist? And Eddie was like, yeah, but I don't want to play the normal version, I want to play the Jack Skuna remix because that's more what the radio station's about. And they were like, oh no, we have to play the original.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, there was a load of politics involved and he went well, fuck it, I'm going to start my own show and I'm going to play this kind of music. And then he started the remix on XFM and that became a massive show and Dermot O'Leary was as well, got to play this song by the Charlatans in a minute. It's a remix by a guy called Jags Cooner. It's got Bobby Gillespie playing drums on it. It's not the original version, but we prefer this and played it on daytime, you know. You know, it's a proper wall of noise as well, and it sounds, sounds like jesus built my hot rod, kind of on ministry.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I mean, that was actually the inspiration. I mean the whole way I did the charlatans remix was I was listening to radio x and I was listening to john kennedy was on radio x uh, xfm as it was back then and he was like, and he played ministry, jesus built my hot rod and I was like that is the most amazing piece of music. So you know, I think I heard it a couple of days before I was supposed to start the charlatans and then I went into the studio I was like that's what we're going to do. And then Phil Mossman, who used to be in the Sabres of Paradise paradise was also now my engineer uh, before he went to new york and he was like, do you know what we should do? He goes, you know, let's get stand-up drums on this.
Speaker 2:Let's get bobby gillespie back to his day job of being, when he used to be in jesus and mary chain, of playing drums rather than singing. So bobby came in and then played the stand-up drums on it, phil, and you know we did the guitars and stuff and it came out how it came out. But but that is another example of the electronic rock and roll thing and the sound that we did and then, yeah, and then then then the floodgates opened. Then it was a case of everybody wanted something like that and I had to be, you know, quite picky and choosy about who I worked with and who I didn't work with and stuff. So, yeah, it's the way it goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Cause. I suppose when you're saying being picky and choosy, like some people must want a bit of, they must want a bit of Jags. But you have to kind of decide whether like cause that's, that's, the more known you are for something, the more like you have to sort of tax it in a way maybe.
Speaker 2:Well see, maybe. Well see, this goes back to andrew again, you know the same thing. You know, when we used to be, when I, when I used to work with andrew in the studio, you know, um, I learned a lot from him about remixing and production. And you know, he was not only was I in a band with him, not only was a studio production team with him, and you know he was also my mentor and friend as well. So there was, you know, there was, you know I looked to him for a lot and he, you know, he, you know the number of remixes he got offered. Um, you know, and it was just like, well, they're just coming to andrew because it's, they want an andrew weatherall remix, you know, and he's going to do what he wants to do.
Speaker 2:And half of the time, when they got it, they were like, well, this isn't what we were expecting, because andrew wouldn't do what was expected, because he always wanted to try new things out. And so, you know, for when it then came to me in later years doing remixes and productions, I that that really, you know, resonated with me, the way he used to do things as well. So for me it was always a case of as well, of like, yeah, I know what they want and I'll kind of give him that, but I do want to try new things out and experiment as well. So you've got to, you know, you've got to play the game a bit but then at the same time really fuck things up as well. Keep pushing things forward from that point of view.
Speaker 2:So you know, yeah, I upset a load of, I mean, you know, fucking hell. When the, when the anr man for the charlotte has got back what I did, they were like, holy fuck, that's not quite what we were expecting, but we do like it. And then, when they played it to tim burgess and the band, they were like, wow, that's amazing. Now, you know, tim was just blown away by it as well and marking everybody. So so from that point of view, it's, you know, job done. You know as long, musicians happy and the guys in the bands are like, oh man, this is brilliant. The a&r man can come back and shout at me all he wants, it doesn't really matter, yeah, yeah I mean, that's what they're there for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and just sort of wrapping up a little bit now, like I mean with if you, if you like, look back on your musical life, is that? What? Is there anything particularly, you would sort of think you, you could sort of tell your younger self that you know to do differently or to look out for um, what do I do?
Speaker 2:I mean, I've been really fortunate, right. I've been really fortunate because I just I think there was a lot of luck involved I was in the right place at the right time. Um, I mean, you know, I used to dj when I was a kid, right, and I the reason I started djing when I was quite young was I used to, I was really inspired by, um, the whole early hip-hop and electro scene. And then, you know, I saw the film wild style and I saw footage of grandmaster flash doing what he did and that that fucking blew my mind right. I was just like this is, this is incredible.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, I was a really big fan of, like, all the early electro shows that used to be on capital radio and, uh, all the stuff that you know. All the other um, you know the, the, the new sound that was coming in in the 80s, you know depeche mode and you know human league, you know being bored and all you know all them sort of early electronic stuff. And you know, uh was just so inspiring for me. So, so I kind of really gravitated towards the electronic, avant-garde, experimental, weird hip-hop stuff that was happening, and then I taught myself how to dj and and and and I kind of just.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a paper round when I was a kid and the money that I got from the paper round I just go and buy imports from from the import shop, and so from that I kind of just did my own thing, because I've never had any formal training, I've never went to college to learn music and I never went on an engineering course or anything like that just stems from me experimenting and doing little bootlegs at home and making little mixtapes and, you know, cutting up records and then buying and then getting a little like dj mixer that had a sampler on it that you could sample on and re-trigger, and then buying a little drum machine to toughen up the the, the bootlegs and mixes I was doing, and buying a little reverb unit and then an eight track cassette recorder thing to record it all onto. Do you see what I?
Speaker 2:mean nice old task cam yeah, yeah, that was the start of the slippery slope, of where you just you put in that kind of like fuck, you know, then there's always one more box to buy or one more piece of equipment that's going to make everything so much better. So you know, so from that, you know, it kind of was like I was doing that and building up, um, just like having fun with it. There was no kind of objective, oh, this is going to be my career. It was just like kind of I like doing this and it was good.
Speaker 2:And then from that I kind of found out about acid house, of the machines that made acid house. And then I, you know, I bought a 303 for 25 pounds and, you know, because nobody wanted them at the time, you know, they were just considered like crap boxes that were going to get thrown away and stuff. And so you know, and this 808, you know, got that for like 75 pounds or whatever. And you know, just, nobody wanted that stuff. And and so, you know, a few people did see the potential in those machines. So I just started experimenting on the machines making house type music, hooked up with some friends like ding thatcher, who was a dj, and we started making a few bootlegs and creating a few bits of music and a few other people asked me to work with them and, or you know, because it was the new sound and then andrew heard about it, you know, and heard the stock songs I was making and and then asked me to get involved in working with him and that's what started the whole. You know, like OK, we're going to do a couple of mixes and I started getting paid and it was like shit, you can get paid for doing things you love. It's amazing. And so you know that then sort of kind of led to where it is.
Speaker 2:So I, I would I look back and do anything differently? Uh, I mean, I don't know if I would, because the problem is, if I did go to college and learn how to do it properly, then I wouldn't have used the machines that I had in order to get them to do what I wanted them to do. So maybe I would have played it safe and it wouldn't have been, you know, trying to manipulate things in a way that you know, a lot of colleges and music courses and and and and theory books would tell you shit, don't do that, you're not supposed to do that. That's not how you do stuff, you know. So I've been really fortunate, I've been really lucky and I think I just met the the greatest people I could have met along the way, and it's just worked out really well for me, you know uh, fantastic answer.
Speaker 1:Uh, jags, that was it.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much oh pleasure, no problem at all, mate.
Speaker 1:I hope you got okay, so that was jags kuna talking with me, paul hanford for lost and sound podcast, and we we had that conversation on Friday, the 8th of August 2025. Thank you so much, jags, for your time and thoughts there. The reissues of those first two Sabres of Paradise albums Sabersonic and Haunted Ansel are out now in the UK and Europe and from 15th of August in North America via Warp Records. And if you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe, give the show a rating and a review on a platform of your choice. It really, really really does help. And if you like what I do and you want to hear more of what I do, you can listen to my BBC Radio documentary the man who Smuggled Punk Rock Across the Berlin Wall by heading on over to the BBC Sounds app or on the BBC World Service homepage. And my book Coming to Berlin is still available in all good independent bookshops or via the publisher's website, velocity Press.
Speaker 1:Lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica, the global but family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio-quality yet affordable products, because they believe that high-quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. The music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of lost in sound is by tom giddens, hyperlink as always in the podcast description. And yeah, so that's it. I hope, whatever you're doing today, you're having a really lovely one and I'll chat to you soon. Thank you.