Lost And Sound

Mabe Fratti

• Paul Hanford • Episode 181

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Mabe Fratti is everywhere these days, and for good reason. The Guatemalan-born, Mexico City-based cellist, vocalist, and composer has built a formidable reputation for creating music that seamlessly blurs between experimental pop and improvisation.

We got into one, exploring Mabe's journey from her religious upbringing in Guatemala to becoming a consistently innovative artist. She candidly shares how playing improvisational cello in a 5,000-capacity neo-Pentecostal church connected her to "the spiritual part of music" – an experience that would shape her artistic approach for years to come. When a Goethe Institute residency brought her to Mexico City, she discovered free improvisation that felt "like being a child again," setting her on a path of constant musical exploration.

Mabe talks about embracing vulnerability and uncertainty. Rather than pursuing a signature sound, she approaches each project with different visions – from her collaborative work with Amor Muere and Titanic to her solo albums. "I am the one who changes my mind very fast," she admits, discussing how her latest album title "Sentir Que No Sabes" (Feel Like You Don't Know) reflects her comfort with constant evolution.

Throughout our discussion, Mabe offers wisdom on navigating creative doubts through playing, meaningful conversations, and continuous learning. As she puts it: "If I feel doubt in this, why not explore that doubt through learning?" 

Mabe’s new album with Titanic, "Hagen" is available from September 5th 

Check it out on Bandcamp

Listen to Mabe Fratti’s music on
 Bandcamp

Follow Mabe Fratti on Instagram:
 @mabefratti

If you enjoy Lost and Sound and want to help keep it thriving, the best way to support is simple: subscribe, leave a rating, and write a quick review on your favourite podcast platform. It really helps others find the show. You can do that here on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.

Huge thanks to Audio-Technica – makers of beautifully engineered audio gear and sponsors of Lost and Sound. Check them out here: Audio-Technica

Want to go deeper? Grab a copy of my book Coming To Berlin, a journey through the city’s creative underground, via Velocity Press.

And if you’re curious about Cold War-era subversion, check out my BBC documentary The Man Who Smuggled Punk Rock Across The Berlin Wall on the BBC World Service.

You can also follow me on Instagram at @paulhanford for behind-the-scenes bits, guest updates, and whatever else is bubbling up.

Speaker 1:

Hi, paul, here, Cellist and composer Mabe Fratti seems to be everywhere the last couple of years and right now she's my guest on this week's show. Welcome to Lost in Sound, the show that goes deep, with artists shaping music and culture from the underground up. But before we get going, lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio-Technica. Over 60 years old and still a family-run company, they make headphones, microphones, turntables and cartridges. Their gear is studio-grade, affordable and built on the belief that great sound should be for everyone. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to Audio-Technicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Okay, so I wasn't here last week. I hope you've had a good one and, yeah, let's do the show. Thank you, hello and welcome to episode 181 of Lost in Sound.

Speaker 1:

I'm Paul Hamford, I'm your host, I'm an author, a broadcaster and a lecturer, and each week on Lost in Sound, I have conversations with artists who work outside the box about music, creativity and about how they're navigating life through their art. So, whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's good to have you along. And yeah, so I wasn't here last week. Um, great to be back now. I had basically a total equipment. Technical meltdown um, it happens every now and then, doesn't it like? Your laptop dies fucking, the cat eats my headphones literally happened. My cat ate the cable of my headphones. All of these things happened at once. So I just took the sort of executive decision like to just just stand back for a week, really, from putting a show out, but did do free conversations for the show um, which are going to be coming out over the next month, and this one was done a couple of weeks back.

Speaker 1:

My guest today is Mabe Fratti, a Guatemalan-born, mexico City-based cellist, vocalist and composer. Now she's an artist that over the last couple of decades, has built a reputation for music that dissolves borders between experimental pop and improvisation. And there's an honesty and unpredictability to her sound the way her voice and cello and production interwine in songs, gently shift gears as they go through and layers add and take away. Things kind of happen in a way that I never really can predict. Now she's an artist that seems to be everywhere at the moment, either in collaborations or with her solo work. Her latest album, last year's, is a great avant pop record.

Speaker 1:

I cannot recommend it enough if you've not heard it already. Like it's got touches of eno, some sort of os mutantes style cut up stuff going on, some talk, talk and I don't even know how to describe what it does. Half the time it's just very fucking good. Um, I also like the way that not everything has to be bleeding edge cool, like the lead single on the track on the album. It's called kravitz and it pays loving tribute to lenny kravitz. Now I'm definitely definitely not about dissing Lenny Kravitz here.

Speaker 1:

I actually think there's this really underrated thing going on between more experimental-leaning artists and their pop loves. Like I think there's this perception sometimes that experimental-leaning artists never listen to pop, like it's all just about Cafe Otto and dissonance. But I think if you're a regular listener to lost and sound you'll know that's not true. Like I do bring up, uh, we do briefly talk about, um, one of my guests on the show at the beginning of the year, more ease, who is very experimental but like you can really hear like this love of auto tune in her work and and I think the same with mabefrati is that there is this, this just joyful kind of combination of of all of these influences and I think the joyfulness, uh, we get into part of that. In the conversation we talked about her journey from guatemala to mexico, about church, politics, community being open to uncertainty and, of course, music.

Speaker 1:

Um, but before we start, usual little bit of housekeeping um, if you love like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe. It really really, really really does help build the show. I'm really appreciative of everyone that does subscribe. And if you're feeling extra generous and you've got like about five minutes on your hand and you could be bothered, give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice, again, it really really massively helps. So, yes, what you're about to hear, I really love this chat. I know I say that a lot, but most of the time, I really really do fucking love the chats on the show, but this is really really good one. We had this chat on friday, the 15th of august 2025. This is me, paul hamford, in conversation with Mabe Fratti. It's absolutely so hot today in berlin. It's ridiculous. How is it in mexico city?

Speaker 2:

it's pretty hot on the like on the mornings, but later it always becomes like a very crazy rain. You know, up to a point, that things are like drowning. You know, like there's like this area because you know that this city used to be like partly a lake and there's like all of these theories that I've heard my friends talk about that it's kind of like what it's meant to be, that it's meant to be like underwater, but, yeah, like, and there's this area that it's called el viaducto, like by viaduct, and like supposedly they put a river underground there and that's the area around where it's getting drowned. So it's interesting, you know.

Speaker 1:

But in the office yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

But a good side, though. Like there was like this also, like last year, there was like this fear of like there was going to be a big drought here in Mexico City, and now, like, like there's a lot of water reserves that are getting like filled up again it works out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I love what you're saying, though it's actually very similar to berlin, because berlin is all built on swamp and apparently, like there's a rumor that the original origins of the word berlin means swamp, in like an old Slavic language, and so there's a similar sort of idea that everything in Berlin is based on, or that the kind of the flakiness that people have here you know that we all come here for is based on the fact that the ground is unstable.

Speaker 2:

It's all swamp underneath that's interesting, I didn't know that I didn't know. So there's like some areas that are like buildings are a little tilted in a way.

Speaker 1:

Not really tilted, I mean it's pretty stable. It's just more like. I guess it's more metaphorical, really Like yeah, very interesting, yeah, yeah yeah, I didn't know that it was swampy.

Speaker 2:

You know Berlin, I couldn't imagine. Yeah, I feel like when I think about swampy I think more like Miami and stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I think they very much buried the swamp in loads of concrete, so you can't see the swamp, but it's just apparently underneath everything. It's swamp.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean like the Netherlands. You know like it's a little bit swampy but still like the quality of engineering of these cities. You know like, yeah, you don't even know, you don't even feel it anymore. You know you see the buildings a little bit like to the side, but here you can see it like some buildings tilted, does that happen quite regularly, the earthquakes earthquakes.

Speaker 2:

I mean a little bit it's kind of like an earthquake-y city, but the intense earthquakes not so much. And I touch the wood because September normally is you feel that you can't foresee an earthquake, you cannot say when it's coming. But it's weird that in Mexico, september is always like the month where it happens more often. And there was like this day in 2017, which was the exact date that happened in 87 85. That was like the big, big, big earthquake, and it was a big, big earthquake exactly the same day in 2017, you know do people prepare a little bit?

Speaker 1:

is there like a little bit of like an atmosphere when it gets to september?

Speaker 2:

there's memes. You know memes and everyone is talking about like yeah yeah, you know, yeah, it's an atmosphere. I mean I can feel it, you know I love that.

Speaker 1:

Like you know, the modern day way we prepare for things means.

Speaker 2:

How truthful they can be.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I mean, in the past few years it feels like your name keeps appearing everywhere, Like whether that's like your solo work or big projects like Amor, muera or Titanic, or the work you do for other people and collaborations. I mean, there's obviously common similarities to your voice, the cello that reappear, but I was wondering if there was anything in terms of the feel that unites all of your projects for you.

Speaker 2:

I think that it's mostly all of this idea of the creative direction, like in amor muere. It's a very collective thing. In titanic, even if I am like making some input, I think that the mastermind there is hector and la catolica, who I collaborate with a lot. You know, um um, we play together all the time. You know like we've become kind of like very, we've morphed in a way that, like we are now, we don't know what comes from where, you know, but in the case of Titanic it's mostly like the songwriting comes from him. Most of the time I might have like a little input, but he's like a. Very well, I feel that he's like a great composer, like in the very traditional term of the composing area, and also very weird in his own way. You know so and we clicked a lot. So in Titanic he has like that creative direction. I mean Amor Muere it's more like a, like a band. You know like we we gather, we play together, we come up with the songs when we are in the same space together.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's kind of like different processes for sure and what do you think when it comes to your solo work? Um, what do you feel like you try to bring to that that you don't with with the other projects?

Speaker 2:

so I I have occurrences, I am very eclectic. Maybe you've noticed that when you listen to me, it's not like a setup, like signature sound in the way that I I feel that my melodies tend to go to a place or my cello playing tends to go to a place. So I mean, I feel that with the mame frate I just tried to like envision something like, uh, like for example for the previous record, like the envisioning was more like okay, we have drums, okay, we have these arrangements, we want to be dark, we want to make, like, make things fit into a song, and it morphed in a way that it feels a little bit more rock in a way you know but I mean like it's all about envisioning something and then trying to come to be.

Speaker 2:

And in the previous record as well, like before sentil que no sabes, it was kind of like okay, I want to go very rough with my voice. I I have these weird synthesizer sounds that I found in this studio in the Netherlands. I want to do something with that. And yeah, like I just first create a vision and then try to start to fit stuff into that vision, even if it's not like fully. Like I'm not fully committed to the rules, but I am trying to go that way, you know yeah, I like that explanation.

Speaker 1:

I like the fact that you say you're not fully committed to the rules, but you try to go that way, because I do think that artists, you know, I mean like in any walk of life, but just as we're talking about art here, you know it, though you do have to the right to reserve to change your mind about something. You know it's like if we, if we didn't, it'd be like oh my god, I'm, I have to commit to this idea that I began 20 years ago.

Speaker 2:

I've changed yes, yeah, I mean yeah, like, for example, I am even like my titles are always like a big question. I feel a little bit like I can see myself reflected and stuff, but I am the one I am the most like I. I change my mind very fast, like I am. For example, I was brought up in a Christian family or something. My ideas have changed. So much about stuff in general, you know, and I think I am very personal with the way that how things reflect in my music, because it also reflects how vulnerable I am towards the people that I'm working with. You know, for example, starting to work with Héctor more closely, him producing my record like Sentir Que, no.

Speaker 2:

Sabes, for example, me opening my heart to that, you know, and you know, like, allowing myself to change and just titling the the record feel like you don't know, like it's kind of like more constant change and I feel that it's the same for my future music. It's kind of like um being open to change because, yeah, identity, you know like there's used to be like this idea of you know like this urban collectives, you know, like the emos and the metal boys, you know, and this still exists, but I don't feel that I, I was really like ever part of anything like that. You know, and this still exists, but I don't feel that I, I was really like ever part of anything like that, you know. So that's why maybe I am just like very cry, maybe less afraid of changing anything, whatever I'm doing, you know right, yeah, that, yeah, I can relate to that.

Speaker 1:

Like I mean, do you feel like you've ever got close to sort of identifying, like maybe when you were younger, with like being an emo or a goth or anything particular?

Speaker 2:

a teenager and that's where you want to be part of something, right, you want to be part of community, whatever. And I had like emo, emo vibes, but I didn't have like the full emo package. And I remember he asked me do you consider yourself an emo? And I was like I, like I just remember this because I felt so insecure to say yes. You know that I just feel that even if I, because I said yes, uh like in a very like insecure way, I just feel that it it's, it's been a constant in my upbringing that I feel that I'm never, never total, never totally sure, you know.

Speaker 1:

I mean. So I guess, like the album is a really interesting format then, isn't it because it kind of captures a part of time, you know, like, um, that's like what someone was feeling in 2022, like something like that yes, yes, yes, absolutely autobiographical, you know and on the most recent album as well.

Speaker 1:

Like you know, you mentioned, you mentioned Hector a few times. You know, like um, you're also romantic partners as well, and um, I noticed from experience of myself, like I, I work on documentaries with my partner and I was wondering, like for you, how is that? Is there any sort of things that you both have to do to kind of combine, keep everything, combine the professional and the personal, or keep things separate?

Speaker 2:

you might know this then, like you know that it it can be super complicated, right, like recently I was. I was talking with lorenzo seni. You know him, he's like a, an italian electronic music producer and he, we were talking about him like making music with your partners, and the first thing he asked you, do you fight? And I'm like, of course I mean like there's always, but like I think that the idea might be, or at least for me is like to see the bigger picture, that it's kind of like of course this stuff is going to happen.

Speaker 2:

You know, of course you're going to have like a crush on ideas, like you know, and it's going to become more personal, you know, because your partners and maybe you don't see it in when you are in the thing, but when you we walk out of it, we are like this is yeah, this is nonsense. Of course it makes sense now, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's a yeah, like I feel that everything is a play in life, even if it's like a play in tension and relief, you know and and part of like that tension it's at least in the creative process.

Speaker 2:

So as long as it's as it's like very like you know, like you start to see it more objectively, you know, um, I feel that it's for the good of the art.

Speaker 1:

I guess you know yeah, because I feel like I mean, I feel like with the relationship side, that I relate to it as like, sometimes it's more important to feed the relationship than the individual people. You know you're feeding whatever's good them, you know whatever's good for the relationship, you know and you. And then with the art it's like sort of they're all classic rick rubin kind of cliche of like servicing the idea, and I think they're quite similar things, isn't it? It's sort of taking your own, you know, like um, my lizard brained moment out of the picture sometimes and going, no, maybe just because I've worked really hard on a bit, it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but then it becomes like what is a good idea? You know, like why is it a good idea? And it's kind of like it can be two good ideas simultaneously, right, and it can become like a madness. And that's where, like, the creative direction position comes to place. You know, it's kind of like, okay, I really want to do it like this, and you, it's a constant negotiation, right, because, yeah, and envisioning like who ends up having the vision or whatever, yeah, like anyone would agree, I think you know yeah, I think there's always a multitude, there's like a multiverse of different ways things could go.

Speaker 1:

Really, I get I sort of noticed that when you like old films or like reissues of old albums and it's like the producers cut of it and it's like the producers brought back their string section, you know that they that sketched and I I guess it's. You know, there's a million different reasons why we decide these things and not there's no clear wrong or right quite a lot of the time I guess.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's so crazy, Like all of these adjectives of how, like you come to finish up something you have to have exact. That's why I feel that it's good for me to have this little root, this little vision at the beginning, because if not, many things can become a very good idea, right yeah?

Speaker 1:

That's a good. Yeah, so you have like a mini blueprint, like a little bit of a sketch about what you want beforehand.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think these kind of things kind of like become like this independent, um independent idea that is not related to the ego, even if the ego is always there, right, but yeah, yeah, maybe I'm saying something very recriminish in this, yeah yeah, I mean, and on the last album I mean.

Speaker 1:

So it starts off with a track called kravitz, is it? Are we talking lenny or zoe?

Speaker 2:

yeah, lenny, lenny, we're talking about lenny. Yeah, I mean I, I it was just like a joke because, um, I like lenny kravitz, you know, and Hector and I, he made like a how do you call it? Like a bet, you know, like uh, okay, yeah, how do you call it like I?

Speaker 1:

dare you like, I dare you, or a bet, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like.

Speaker 2:

I dare you not like, because I was like what if I call it Kravitz and he's like I dare you to call it Kravitz? I don't believe you will, and I was like I will. So basically, that's what I, I love it.

Speaker 1:

I love it like so bringing like a little bit of humor into everything as well oh sure, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2:

It can go very crazy in the studio as well. That humor as well. Everything happens, it is humor, you know, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's, besides, I, I become very militant. I don't know if it's militant, the word like like. It's more like obsessed with, like doing the thing, making a deadline for myself, like kind of like, because if not, if you extend yourself too much, it's kind of like. The same thing about the autobiography, right, yeah, it just goes on and on. It's happened to you.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean when you said that I was thinking of actually even today, like whatever I'm working on at the moment is just, if you don't get it done on that day, it just spills and spills and then you end up like rescheduling things and you know, like that which I do, do you know, but it's, I think you know it's it's tough. I think like there's so much distraction in the last few years, like with social media and just the amount of stimulation, like I find I think most of I've had so many conversations with people recently where they found just concentrating generally quite hard these days.

Speaker 2:

So crazy right Like yeah for me, oof.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like I, we always talk about this with friends, family, everyone, because I remember myself without Instagram I didn't use Instagram that much before you know I was like, uh, I entered super late to the, to the party, you know, and uh, and now I am like like it's kind of like it's it's even automatic, and then it's kind of like delving into this um, and I I've heard people talk about this and I feel that I really resonate with that it's like this stream of like very contradictory set of emotions, like one thing, if one thing makes you laugh, one thing makes you feel like like, yeah, I don't know, like tenderness towards like an animal or something.

Speaker 2:

Then you see, like something related to Gaza, you know, and then it's kind of like like an endless contradiction of emotions and your brain is just like dormant and then you forget everything you know and it's, it's so crazy. And, yeah, for me, like this ability of concentration, especially because I myself, I don't know I feel that because you have a podcast, you must love conversations and you must love like a very intricate and maybe deep conversations, I guess you know I do?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do. I think I've always been someone that, even though I speak to, you know, even though, like I guess, like a little bit of the podcast reputation is of electronic music, you know, even though, like I guess, like a little bit of the podcast reputation is of electronic music, I've always preferred the kind of the restaurant and the bar and the pub and the long nights of conversations over the dancing. Really, I think, yeah, definitely, deep conversations have always been a thing really, and also, like doing this podcast, it's always hearing different artists' conversations and what they're going through as well, or what they're going through sounds a bit overdramatic, like you know, what everyone's experiencing. You know, and it's amazing how many things sync up all of the time between different people yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like like for, for me it's also like, like I like listening to, like these deep conversations, like especially when it becomes more and more deep. Actually, yesterday I was talking about this new movie. Did you ever watch Waking Life by Richard Ritter I.

Speaker 1:

I is this the one where he kind of painted over the screen. It's like he filmed actors. Yeah, I've not seen. I saw it back in the day. I haven't seen it for a couple of decades, so I I'd need to. I can remember the basic technique, but please tell me.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no, I haven't seen it in a while as well. I was reminding it to me yesterday and I just remember that it was like a series of conversations, like Richard Linklater likes to do that kind of stuff, like capture conversations, you know, and these conversations are very like about the meaning of life and all that stuff, but it just becomes very deep and all that and it just like. I just really like that kind of like. I just feel that that is very special to me and I I do feel that I really like that translation in music, especially with, like I don't know because the same, the same thing that we have lost, um, this connection to like depth, you know, um, I just feel that with with music it's kind of like the same thing, like in a conversation, when eventually you get like an epiphany or something.

Speaker 2:

I don't know, I just feel that you need like that endurance. You know you need to like go through all of these like moments and then eventually you will get to a place of wow. But with all of this lack of attention which I have as well, and I feel that I've seen myself in this position of like what? Like I just talk about a lot of nonsense and what happened to me?

Speaker 1:

I can relate. I feel, yeah, you're talking about music and being able to reach an epiphany and the idea that you know you have to go for this endurance through. You know, sit down to do something, have a quick look at instagram and then suddenly the as you were saying, this kaleidoscope of like intense emotions and then suddenly it's like, oh, is it time for lunch? You know, but when, when we do break through, you know there are still like big epiphanies to be had and I think think for you, for example, what does that mean for you in terms of playing music, Because I know a lot of artists really connect with the idea of getting into flow states, and how does that come across for you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for example, when making a record, I do to make getting to a flow, or everything you know. You know like, um, these last years have been a lot of work, you know like, I think I think, uh, like, it's hard for me to remember like a moment of vacation of like not thinking about work, you know, and, um, I do love what I'm doing, so it doesn't feel like, uh, like tedious or anything, but at the same time, like getting into. Whenever I get into, especially with the records, I try to put everything aside and exactly get into the flow and, yeah, like trying stuff, trying and trying and eventually getting into that epiphany, you know, and it's so, it feels so good when you get to them. You know at least what you feel that it's a good like, a good idea. You know like and this is one of the things that I really have learned to do as well in this, really have learned to do as well in this like, because having an epiphany and thinking that it's a good idea, like you commit to that at the, to a point of blindness, and eventually having someone else to just tell you like what if we take this out, what if we take this good idea out and find it's just like um, it's. It's so many emotions again, you know, like um, but I, I do, I, I do like to get into a flow.

Speaker 2:

I do like to, um, sacrifice as well, learn to sacrifice good ideas as well. I like to, I, I, I like to just like getting to the configuration. I would just like to say like, call it configuration of, or ecosystem. You know of, like, uh, of this idea, of this general idea that I'm committing to. You know, um, I recently was making, I've been making a record with this guitar player. We just finished and I made this record like in lapses of time, like between tours and all that, and it was very hard, like it was easier to. It's easier for me to get into a flow in a particular period of time than like as isolate flows, you know, because it becomes very crazy. But but, yeah, like uh, yeah, I do like to get into the flow, I like to, yeah yeah, yeah, no, I can, yeah, no, that's.

Speaker 1:

They're making a lot of sense there. Um, yeah, I can imagine as well with the, the movie, saying the record you're just doing it's because you're jumping in and out of it. That's a little bit like what we were talking about, about like just concentration, just on a different scale, isn't it? Like you know, having intense times where this is just what you're doing. You know it, it does help. But I wanted to kind of go back in time and ask a little bit about how you came to be who you are now really, and like so yeah, so, um, you're, uh, where, what you?

Speaker 1:

you're born in Guatemala, um, and so you mentioned a little bit earlier on that you came from a religious upbringing, and so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about that and about how music came into your life. You know, particularly in in that situation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, no, I mean I was. So my family, guatemala had a like a shift from I mean there's Catholicism but there's like a big Protestant community, the US in Guatemala, like a lot of missionaries coming to Guatemala and kind of like Protestantism became like the meaning of life for a lot of Guatemalans. Like my parents, my mother became the first generation to become a Protestant. My father was second generation, like they became hardcore Protestants and I was born into that environment from early, like from day one, and that's the music that I would hear. But also my mother, she really liked classical music, she really liked education. She was like this is good for the children's brains. So I guess that was part of the input of this music. And my sister wanted to learn violin and I wanted to learn the saxophone and I couldn't learn the saxophone because I had very bad lung problems, I had like remittance and all that stuff. And when I went to the academy my sister went into violin. I couldn't get the saxophone. So I just went with her to listen to her play.

Speaker 2:

And the director of the children's orchestra, he was a cellist, so he would pick the cello to show the parts to the children and I was like that sounds so good, because of course he was playing it. Well, you know, I was like man, I want to play that. And I started to play with him and we became very good friends, like he was like my great teacher, you know, and he was also a big protestant, he gave me books on the apocalypse, stuff like that, you know, and and he became also very good friends with my mother. So he we kind of like went every like um every week with him and like I was learning very traditional playing my my teacher didn't like anything that went beyond even I would say the 19th century. I normally say the 20th century, but I remember me talking about, you know, like sati to him and he was like, like, he was like everything is minimalism now and and um, he loved like the classical music, likeism now, and he loved like the classical, like the classics, you know, bach.

Speaker 1:

Right, yes, the big romantic, you know, the Enlightenment people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the ones that went like baroque, crazy, baroque, everything, but that's okay. I mean, like I learned to play, play the instrument, and then I became a teenager. My parents were like there's no future in music here in Guatemala. Like either you become Yoyoma or you, you know, like learn something else. That is more like structured. And then I was, my hormones were everywhere, you know, my, my brain was like everywhere as well. So I was like starting to like hang out more with my cousins and they had Addis and LimeWire and I would just like grab their PSP and like listen whatever they were listening to, you know. And my parents were like no, that music, nay, you know, but you cannot control the like how, how things start to like just spread around with the internet and all that.

Speaker 1:

So, um, yeah, like I think, um, but quite a few conversations recently where limewire has come up. You know, we're talking like that moment of influence in like the early to late 2000s, really aren't we? Where um, before streaming really took off, where it was like, but then suddenly had this massive like ability to have everything you wanted, but it would be probably very, very low quality and just go downloading crazy, but I, I love the line wire period.

Speaker 1:

I think, I, I think people talk about it in a very affectionate way. It's a very missed platform yeah, definitely also.

Speaker 2:

What was the name? File file share, which we? No, no, it wasn't. It was like a link of like just downloading stuff that we file.

Speaker 1:

Oh, something like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I remember that as well, and they closed it because, of course, everyone was sharing music there and, yeah, I just loved. But it's crazy because even if I had access to the Internet, I didn't know the way to find my way to the best music. You know, like, like it was crazy. I mean like it's even if it's like a portal to everything you have to have like the good, like the good way. You know, yeah, yeah, fuck, like I remember I had, like I listened to everything my cousin downloaded, so it was like reggaeton, rock and radio, hell, you know, like that stuff. And I was like, oh, shit and everything.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, it was very eclectic as well, and I just found myself like, oh, I'd like that one that he downloaded, I'd like that one, so he'll download, I'd like that one. So I'm going to look that one up and then last the film kind of like merged into that stuff and I was like kind of like finding related artists and, um, yeah, and like you had your, I have my friends that like, oh, I show you this, I show you that in in their iPods or like their CDs or whatever. And as a teenager I was still a Christian I was listening to some pagan music and I remember I started to play in the church's band. I was a cellist of the band and it's kind of like a. It's kind of like a. It's kind of. It was like a kind of like a mega church. You know, those like Guatemala has like churches that have like the capacity of like 10,000 people, 5,000.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, I don't, I think right. Okay, that blows my mind. You know where? You know in northern Europe, like churches are big, I feel like maybe what 100, 200 capacity, something like that Might have a big roof like a thousand-year-old roof, but that's about it really. Yeah, so what's this? How many thousand people again?

Speaker 2:

5,000 people, 5,000, right, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's got you know heel song and all those. So it's kind of like neo-pentecostal christianism, which is more modern, and it's kind of like cool christians and I don't know like it, because the protestants have like this, um, like this rhetoric or like this how do you call it it's? They talk about abundance and how, like, the money that you give to the church is going to be abundant eventually, you know like, and I don't know. It's kind of again. It became like the meaning of life for so many people and I again I just I will just say that I, before I became became a very hardcore like anti-church, but now I'm like, these people find meaning in their lives. I mean, my parents found their center through that. So another, another topic, you know.

Speaker 2:

But anyways, I started to talk, to play in this big big church and, um, I was a cellist so I only played on the sad songs and they let me play whatever I wanted, just like, improvise. And that was my favorite thing, because I just started to like, just improvise. And it's crazy, because there was a vibe right, like everyone was like into, like, at least most of the people in the 5,000 people started to just like create this aura in the church of like feeling something right and the music was mellow and I was just like play whatever I wanted, you know, and, uh, I I connected to the spiritual part of the music.

Speaker 2:

I there I guess, you know, I started to make peace with that. You know, I started to make peace with that. So I eventually I was like, I was like no man, I'm such a hypocrite, I'm just gonna quit playing in the church. And um, and yeah, I had several bands in Guatemala, like Radiohead inspired, bjork inspired, of course you know, and eventually I got myself. I just I'm just jumping in time very quickly now but um, eventually I got myself like this little M-Audio fast track thing and Audacity. You know that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, the little kind of door thing. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that was my first DAW and I started to record my own stuff and upload it in SoundCloud. And, yeah, eventually I got a mail inviting me to be part of this residency here in Mexico with Gete Institute, which you might know yeah. Playing with it's a.

Speaker 1:

German connection. Yeah, exactly playing with this is german connection.

Speaker 2:

yeah, exactly, it was kind of like they were making like a collective of musicians from central america, caribbean, caribbean and mexico to play in a festival in mexico. And um, they called me and uh which was a very crazy story because it's kind of like a one guy that was roaming in like guatemala trying to find where to find musicians and he went to the art school and a person from the art school wrote a list and put my name on that list and they listened to the music and that's why they found me. I came here, I fell in love with the city. I was like I have to come back and I came back like one year later, you know. So after that, that's when you moved here, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I just jumped very fast because I was going no that's I mean.

Speaker 1:

I think, however, people tell their stories. It's always really interesting and I think, like going back to talking about what you were talking about, like the artistic decisions, like a different day you would have told a different. There'll be like different, different aspects that you pick out of that. So it's always really, really interesting. But, like, do you feel? Um, so you know you're living in Mexico, so by this time you're living in Mexico City. You know you're recording onto Audacity, and was there a point that you could remember where you felt like, ah, I've got the sound now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, no, I mean I I've been again. I like I had been playing for with some bands and I had like been knowing myself for some years, but still I think when I hear myself in those recordings back then I'm like, no, I hate it. Yeah, and but, um, when I came here for the residency, I met some musicians and I kind of like postponed my flight before going back from the residency. And I was, I was like man, I have to know more this city and I went to see these like free improv musicians in here here in Mexico and I was like like it was like being a child again, like music. I was like wow, like wow, what, what, what, what, what, what.

Speaker 2:

And when I came back, I reconnected with these friends and there was a point that I was going to like every event I could. I mean I'm not the same anymore. I'm like kind of more like homebound now, but like I was so obsessed with seeing these musicians play like and, um, I was just listening and listening and listening and and started to collaborate with friends that or friends, you know, like friends that I made there, like some friends that had connections in Guatemala, that my friends were like you have to meet this guy. He makes noise music and I was like playing with him and I was just, I just started to play on my own and making half songs, half improvisations, and one one gig kind of led to another gig and like that was the way it was since 2016. And, um, there was a point that I saw he ran andrade, who is my drummer now, like, but not my drummer, but he plays my drums with me in my project. I saw him play solo and I was like man, I am not a drummer, but I want to learn more about improvisation and I feel that you are great, probably like a great improviser.

Speaker 2:

And we met for some weeks, you know like, talked about music, talked about how I, how my language with music was like become more aware of my language. And you know like, just playing and playing and playing and playing and saying yes to a lot of stuff led me to the confidence to create my first record. And when I made that afterwards, I just started to like, you know like, just by practicing and playing and playing, I just started to create like this idea of who I am. But again, it's kind of very what I was telling you, to you like it's very eclectic. I'm just learning all the time and always doubting my past self, always like, oh, I should have done it this way or that way. So yes, to where I am now. Right now it's all about like this learning process.

Speaker 1:

I guess you know yeah, and I I mean it's. I think you it feels like you're being very frank and honest about these sort of things like the doubts. Have there been any things that you felt that have been useful for you to dig into, like in moments of doubt or in moments of indecision or self-doubt, like what you dig into to find the way forward?

Speaker 2:

the way forward. Yeah, I mean it's, it's hard because, uh, yeah, like I, I'm, I'm most of the time, I'm like that, but it's also like just playing, you know the best way, um, and also like talking about music with people that I really listen to. You know, um, it's crazy because you could listen to everyone and everyone could have like an opinion, but I really respect the opinions. For example, hector's opinion, I really respect, you know, and I really listen to him.

Speaker 2:

But also, like you know, listening to music and like, for example, recently I saw this band in Italy called Beat Day, I think it's the name, and they are like it's a choir and a bass player and and he just like listening to stuff that opens your eyes. Again, you know, and you know, like seeing how, because, because I, what I, the way that I approach inspiration by other musicians is like I don't want to steal something, you don't want to steal anything, right? I just, I just want to see, like, what is this thing that is general or a micro thing that they are doing? That is, that is something that I can make in my practice that is not going to feel fake, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of like it's like a conversation.

Speaker 1:

It's like maybe you don't want to steal, but maybe there's an. I felt it like I don't want to steal someone's ideas, but I also want to kind of have a conversation with their ideas. You know, and? But it's my response, you know.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, exactly. How do you, how can you like get this part of the process and make it your own in a way, right?

Speaker 2:

So I think this kind of like this, this practice, is kind of like get me out of the doubt, you know and talking, talking for sure, get me out of the doubt, you know, and yeah, talking, talking for sure, and um, playing and and learning, like learning, for me, is one of the things that make me feel when I, when I feel that I'm learning something, I just feel more confident or less doubt. I just like letting myself feel that I'm vulnerable again. And if I feel doubt in this, why not explore that doubt through learning? Right? So I guess that's. I guess that's the way.

Speaker 1:

That's a really good answer, like because when we're learning we're just open to stuff and we're sort of saying we don't know yet. Like the old idea of learning is I don't know, so I'm learning learning. So if you're feeling doubt, why not put that into the form of learning, where it is like an acceptable version of I don't know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course I mean. I really, for example, I didn't learn. It's crazy because sometimes I am talking with people that had a Montessori education when they were children.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I can and I like we come to the topic and like I don't ask everyone if they had a Montessori education, but when they, when we touched the topic and I'm like it makes like it just makes sense to like, like it's a very different process and I didn't go through that learning Like. I learned like traditional like school.

Speaker 2:

But eventually I started to learn more about Montessori when I was in university because there was this guy that was obsessed with it and he became my teacher for a while and, um, I just got like from that relationship I got the like how, how beautiful it is to be like that vulnerable, you know, and I I normally see and this might be like a very general way of criticizing society but I just feel that people want to have their mind made Like. They want to have like solid ideas about stuff.

Speaker 1:

And you give me an example of what you mean by that.

Speaker 2:

About the solid ideas, about stuff. So, for example, you know, I don't know, this is going to be sound terrible, um, I mean, I might be even get cancelled, I don't know. But I mean, for example, I have friends that are like most of my friends are left, like are left-leaning, you know which. I feel that is the best way to feel, that, like, I do feel that the left is more humanitarian, more like things about society, things about, and it's for me that's great. But I've heard them say, like I'm never going to speak with right-wing people or right-wing people, people suck and they I like, for example, my friend, she's from Argentina and of course you have Millet as a president, who is like a clown for sure but, I, mean like, but at the same time I'm like man.

Speaker 2:

But you don't know if that nice person that is like working in the restaurant and that is like talk, having a good like, a good conversation with you, voted for him and you are like being very like. I don't want to talk to this person.

Speaker 2:

You know, and I don't want to learn anything from this person and I'm like man what there's no use to that. You know, and I've I've I've met libertarian people in my life very closely actually, and I'm like I don't know if this idea resonates with me that much like they are like entrepreneurs are the ones who pay for everything you like, and I'm like, no, but like it's not true. You know it's like, but anyways, but it like, it's that kind of, but it's good to have these conversations. You know, like maybe I don't believe this is true, but why do you believe this is true?

Speaker 1:

yes, yeah, you know like it's.

Speaker 2:

It's at least becomes like a, like a like a cycle of of learning. You know, I don't know, I don't know like I.

Speaker 1:

I 100% agree with you on that. If you're going to get cancelled for that, then so am I. Um, but because I, I'll be honest I think I've had this conversation quite a few times with my partner recently and, um, like you know, I'm on the left I feel like it's the sort of humanitarian side of looking at the world. It's about caring for people and it's about, uh, it's about like peace and it's about, like you know, so eradicate, trying to eradicate inequality and all of these things, and, um, yeah, so, so it sort of seems hypocritical, because you know, there are people that you know it's exactly the same thing that you've been saying, like people on the left that won't talk to people on the right, you know, and but then if you're thinking like trying to eradicate inequality, how do people do that? By not speaking to people that they don't agree with.

Speaker 1:

You know, you can. You don't have to agree with someone. It doesn't, you can. You can have a civil conversation with someone in certain contexts. Yeah, I mean, yes, there are exceptions. You know, I, I don't think I could have a civil conversation with someone in certain contexts. Yeah, I mean, yes, there are exceptions. You know, I, I don't think I could have a civil conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu in any, no, you know, I would.

Speaker 1:

I mean yeah, no, but yeah, like I feel we have to have some space and room for not even having to agree with other people, but to be able to hold a bit of space to see the other person as a human being, I guess.

Speaker 2:

Of course, yeah, I mean like this and the reason why they are making those decisions and how, having their thoughts right, and and it's not, not from a, not from any kind of like yeah, like this moral superiority that comes with, like thinking that you are like the one that has the best thought, you know, and I, I see, you see it everywhere, in every field of knowledge and society and everything, and it's maybe very human to to be like that, but also like being aware that you could be like that and, you know, like this, because I, we, we all live in a bubble and and um.

Speaker 2:

I do feel that most, like most of the people I know, are left-leaning and it's great like we can agree with a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2:

But I mean, like, where is this people that that I don't know, that I could learn something like have different thoughts, that I don't know, that I could learn something like have different thoughts that I have, you know? And, for example, guatemala is crazy because the right wing won the revolution and we had like a series of military governments and you can see how conservatism is like a general thing in Guatemala, how conservatism is like a general thing in Guatemala, and I guess it's easier to find these conversations there. But still, like, the more, yeah, the more you grow up, or maybe the more you get into your own circle of friends or create like more related to those stuff that you do, that the more I, I guess, the more, the more similar your thought becomes to the others. I don't know I, and also, yeah and all that, but yeah, maybe it went very, yeah, very far away yeah away, but I mean yeah no, I do agree, I do agree, I do agree.

Speaker 1:

So it's a big subject, but I feel, yeah, I think, the more the I think it's also about aging, that we become inherently a little bit more, our circles become a bit smaller. You know, as, as we go through life and um, you know, like, like the way, like even in music, like so many people, once they get into their 30s and then their 40s and their 50s, their favourite music was made when they were 17, 15, you know, you have to keep challenging yourselves.

Speaker 2:

Of course, yeah, learning.

Speaker 1:

Listening to music. Definitely, definitely. And just finally, I wanted to ask, like, if we're talking about learning, but can I ask you one question? Yeah, please do, yeah, go for it.

Speaker 2:

You've been interviewing all of these musicians. I wonder, like, if you've had like, do you sense like, is there, like, um like? Do you sense, like, is there? Because I feel that the sense of purity, like, like being, it's like uh, how do you say it? Um purity, like when you are like no, that is not music, yeah, or like that is have you? Is it normal to hear that kind of stuff nowadays, or is it um?

Speaker 1:

I mean? You mean in terms of when I'm interviewing people a purist um yeah it is.

Speaker 1:

You get a bit of. I feel like, because I only speak to people, that I really like their work, um, um, apart from maybe there's been one or two guests that, like PR companies, have just said like they're okay, you know. But like, generally when I've asked people, it's because, like, I really fucking like their work, you know, and I want to have a conversation about it, and so there's usually some kind of. I know that everyone's very different. There are things that connects people, and so I feel, yeah, it's. It sounds like absolute bullshit to say, but, like pretty much everyone I speak to is really nice and um and really really open and just like a fellow person doing, going through their experiences and being open and learning.

Speaker 1:

You know, um, occasionally, like you'll get like maybe it's perhaps more in the dj world, um, you'll get some of the older djs that sort of feel that maybe things were better when everyone just played vinyl. You know that they, they, they see like the club culture changing in a way that doesn't include them and, um, uh, but even then, like I do, I don't think I feel some sympathy for them and I don't feel like anyone's been particularly like. You know, my thing is better, it's just, yeah, I'd say generally, I think people are just I've spoken with have been very, very open, really, like, I think if it was like if I, if I just worked for a radio show and guests were just given to me all of the time, um, you know, it was like whoever is being promoted that week, it might be a different story. I, I don't know, but I think, um, the, the, the artists that I want to speak to generally tend to be like, just very open-minded really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I feel that like I had this idea of like, because I had this idea like at some point that like experimental music would be like the community would be like no pop music here, you know, yeah, like the community would be like no pop music here, you know like yeah. But then I noticed like there's like it's kind of like the metal heads, you know like they like crazy stuff, you know like it's kind of like open-minded, you know.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, it's interesting, it's yeah it's interesting, yeah, and I think I think there's more and more experimental artists as well that are putting, like you know you calling that song Cravitz Like or I spoke with. It just came to the top of my head. You know More Ease.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, oh, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and she puts in these like beautiful pop references every now and then like really like Britney-level references and then into like really experimental music, and I like Britney level references and then into like really experimental music and I just really love that. You know there's no, there's no irony. You know it's not about being ironic. It might be about have being a little tongue-in-cheek, and but it's about it comes from the heart, it comes from like well, actually, I just really like that exactly, exactly, being open to what you like and not yeah curious, interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I've seen that too. I've seen that too. I've seen that too. So, yeah, I feel that it's very, that's very nice. I feel that's refreshing actually.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I do too. Yeah, so, yeah, just the final question. So if you're thinking about where you are now and you looked back to yourself just as you were starting to, you know, maybe just a little bit before you got to Mexico City for the first time, what advice would you give your younger self?

Speaker 2:

and oh man, I am. I'm very tough with myself, you know, maybe in an unhealthy way, but I would say like more, like learn more. You know, like I would be more hardcore and and less, um, I mean like, like, this self-doubt as well, like kind of like at the very beginning, made me feel that very afraid to to release stuff and all that. And there was a point where my noise musician, like my noise friend mito, he was like you should give a fuck. Yeah, you shouldn't give a fuck. He was like he's like a full, like very punk, and he he's like, don't worry about it too much.

Speaker 2:

Um, I would kind of like lower that anxiety in myself, you know, like, don't worry too much, like, let yourself be in that way, but, um, yeah, maybe learn more. For sure, like, um, there's so many pathetic emotions that you go through when you are like, uh, I mean I I moved here when I was 26 and I was pretty like anxious about what was going to happen. You know, like, and maybe just like, focusing a little bit more would have been good for me.

Speaker 2:

You know, maybe that's one of the things that I would say to myself, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a nice one. I still feel like I need to do that myself. I feel like Focusing, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe me too. Eh, maybe me too. I feel the same.

Speaker 2:

We were talking about concentration and focus. For sure, Totally.

Speaker 1:

It's funny how the themes kind of sometimes just emerge like that wasn't really scripted, it just kind of emerged as a theme um yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks so much. That was really great, thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, paul.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great to meet you okay, so that was my dear fratty talking with me, paul hanford, for lost and sound podcast, and we had that conversation on friday, the 15th of august 2025. Thank you so much, mother, for sharing your time and thoughts with me there. I thought I was really enjoyed that chat. Um new single with a project titanic called escarbo dimension is apologies about my pronunciation if I've got that a little bit wrong um is out now. Um, so yeah, if you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe, give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice. It really, really, really really does help. And if you like what I do and you want to hear more of what I do, you can listen to my radio documentary the man who smuggled punk rock across the berlin wall by heading on over to the bbc sounds app or on the bbc world service home page. And my book coming to berlin is still available in all good bookshops or via the publisher's website.

Speaker 1:

Velocity press audio technica are the sponsors of lost and sound, the global but still family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges and microphones. They make studio quality yet affordable products because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. And the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of Lost in Sound is by Tom Giddens Hyperlink in the podcast description. So, yes, whatever you're doing, I hope you're having a really, really lovely one today and I look forward to chatting to you soon. Thank you, you.