Lost And Sound

Nathan Fake

• Paul Hanford • Episode 195

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I sat down with Nathan Fake, one of the UK’s most distinctive electronic music producers, to chart his journey from rural Norfolk to the forefront of techno, IDM and experimental electronic music — and to unpack Evaporator, his seventh studio album. The record marks a clear pivot away from drum-heavy habits toward mood, melody and atmosphere, growing out of an intentional “ambient-only” brief.

We dig into the nuts and bolts of music production: why Nathan still sketches ideas in old versions of Cubase, how cassette saturation, cheap gear and sonic imperfections add human friction, and where modern plugins genuinely earn their place. He talks about contrast as a compositional tool — lush pads against tough drums — and traces a lineage from Border Community’s trance-tinged techno through to echoes of Warp-era electronic atmospherics.

There’s also a candid look at playing legacy tracks live, reshaping classics like “The Sky Was Pink” and “Outhouse” through improvisation, memory and feel, rather than carbon-copy recreations.

Beyond sound design, the conversation opens out into bigger questions about electronic music today. Do long-form tracks still survive in a scroll- and swipe-first ecosystem? Nathan answers by doubling down, placing a nine-minute centrepiece at the heart of the new album. We reflect on working with small independent labels versus larger music organisations, and he shares pragmatic advice for staying singular: ignore trends, set your own constraints, and let the idea dictate the tool. We also probe the monoculture of online tutorials and ubiquitous DAWs.

If you enjoy Lost and Sound and want to help keep it thriving, the best way to support the podcast is simple: subscribe, leave a rating, and write a quick review on your favourite podcast platform. It really helps new listeners discover the show — on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Nathan Fake on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/nathanpaulfake/?hl=en

Nathan Fake on Bandcamp:

https://nathanfake.bandcamp.com/

Huge thanks to Audio-Technica – makers of beautifully engineered audio gear and sponsors of Lost and Sound. Check them out here: Audio-Technica

My book Coming To Berlin is a journey through the city’s creative underground, and is available via Velocity Press

Follow Lost and Sound on Substack

You can also follow me on Instagram at @paulhanford for behind-the-scenes bits, guest updates, and whatever else is bubbling up.



Paul:

So, few producers managed to balance beauty and abrasion as consistently as my guest on this week's Lost and Sound, Nathan Fake, a quietly radical voice in UK electronic music. Hello and welcome to Lost and Sound, the show that goes deep with artists shaping music and culture from the underground up. But before we get going, Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. For over 60 years, this family-run company has been making the kind of gear that helps artists, DJs and listeners alike really hear the detail. Headphones, microphones, turntables and cartridges, studio quality, beautifully engineered and designed and built on the belief that great sound should be for everyone. So wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnica.com to check out all of that range of stuff. Right, let's do the show. I'm Paul Hamford. I'm your host, I'm an author, a broadcaster, and a lecturer. And each week on Lost and Sound, I have a conversation with an artist who works outside the box about music, creativity, and about how they're navigating life through their art. So whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's great to have you along. And I hope whatever you're doing, you're having a really fantastic one today. I'm speaking to you from outside my desk space on a street in Neukölln in Berlin. And it's that kind of time of day where it's like it's almost dark, but it's not quite. And that's kind of like the kind of mood and atmosphere I usually go to for listening to today's guest. When I listen to the music of today's guest, somewhere slightly nocturnal, but also not completely dark. You know, thinking about like the sun setting over a wintry meadow. I don't know why that image has just come into my head today about that. Nathan Fake, this is who I'm talking about. Nathan Fake is my guest on the show today, maker of what is often described as bucolic-edged electronic music. And that could be possibly informed through Nathan growing up in rural Norfolk in England, as much as it is through his love of club music and electronica. There's something very atmospheric and dare I say English and a little bit nostalgic about what he does. And it could this kind of runs through his work. There's a tendency to mix lo-fi technology like old music software. He does things like run synths through cassettes and then feeds them back into whatever else he's recording on, and a Casio keyboard that featured a lot in a lot of his early recordings, and how he mixes that with more club-ready beats and methods. He got into music at a young age. He was 20 when his first release, Outhouse, came out on James Holden's Border Community label in 2003. But it was his 2006 full-length debut album, Drowning in a Sea of Love, that I think really established him. Partly as a natural successor to the kinds of things Warp was putting out in the 90s. I think particularly something like Boards of Canada, but combining that with more of a driving sense of rhythm. In the years since, he's made music that pushes more into the dance floor, and music that pulls away into more experimental territories as well. His seventh album, Evaporator, is gonna come out very, very soon. I think it's out on February the 20th, and which he says started out as maybe being like an ambient album, but as you know, with most creative projects, the starting point, things move beyond that, and it's certainly not an ambient album. Um, yes. So we had this chat. We had this chat on February the 6th, 2026. You know how it is sometimes like the quality of Zoom can be a little bit like hit and miss, and it's one of those ones. I've done the best I can to clear it up, but some of the quality does dip a little bit. Uh I hope I do apologize to you about that. But I mean, I really enjoyed chatting with him. I think you're going to enjoy the chat. It's it's a chat. This one's like a real chat. Um okay, housekeeping time. I've also recently started updating my Substack. Uh now I'm attempting to do this weekly at the moment. If you're not following, if you haven't started following it yet, I don't blame you. I sort of left this the Substack sort of went dormant for about a year, but I'm on it. I'm on it. I've done two entries in the last couple of weeks, and I'm gonna try and do an entry every week. So please give it a follow. Um, what I'm doing there is I'm just doing like a little bit of extra writing about each episode. Sometimes it's about the guest, sometimes it's about like an aspect of what the guest or me are talking about, sometimes it's gonna be about something totally, totally not connected whatsoever. But there's also a link to the podcast up there, and maybe I'll add some other stuff. So please give it a follow at lostandsound.substack.com. Okay, so back to Nathan Fake. We had this chat, as I mentioned, on February the 6th, 2026. Sound quality isn't that best, but I think you're gonna enjoy it anyway. This is what happened when I met Nathan Fake. Hi there. Hi, Nathan. Can you hear me alright?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, can you hear me and see me? Yeah, absolutely perfectly. Hello, great.

Paul:

How are you doing? You're right. Yeah, I'm right. How are you? Yeah, yeah, not bad. It's really I'm in Berlin and it's incredibly snowy today. It's been snowing for I don't know, it feels like forever now. Um, okay. What's it where are you in Norfolk?

SPEAKER_01:

Um I'm in Norwich, yeah. It's just pissing it with rain here. It's been raining, it's been raining for days. Yeah, I was in London for a couple of days, it was raining there as well. So yeah, it's just raining everywhere at the moment, I think.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, just uh classic English uh rain and classic German just coldness.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, like Berlin sort of like has the the summers are like hotter than the UK, aren't they? But then the winters are like colder.

Paul:

Definitely, yeah. It's it's comparable to the UK weather-wise, but it's just yeah, that it tips over that little bit more extreme either end on things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel like Eastern Europe's a bit like that as well. Like some been to Romania, some X Girlfriends from Romania, like it'll be like crazy hot in the summer and like sort of minus 15 in the winter, as I can say.

Paul:

Yeah, but I think the thing that's the sort of the commonality of it is still the irregularity of the good weather, really.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, randomness, yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. Um thanks so much for joining me today. And so yeah, you got evaporator coming out um in a few weeks' time, I believe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, 20th of February. 20th of February.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. And so I think is that your that's your sixth album? I always get confused. It's seventh. Seventh, my my bad on that. Yeah, um, I think I'm slightly numerically dyslexic. Like I can look at a list and it's the same as when I get coins out to pay for something the rare time now to pay for something. I'm like, how much is that money?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm terrible at money as well. I mean, numbers and counting money and stuff, yeah.

Paul:

So yeah, yeah. I mean, it's also 20 years since the release of Drowning in a Sea of Love, which was a landmark album. Does that feel like a long time ago to you now?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, yes and no, as most people would probably say in that situation because it's obviously yeah, like first album, so yeah, it does feel like a long time ago, and I was obviously like a lot younger and stuff, but like, yeah, um, my music does sound different, I think, now, but it's still sort of very much me. Like, I still like that old stuff. So a few artists that sort of can't listen to their like really old stuff, but I sort of still feel very sort of connected to it, really. I mean, particularly with the first album, because the sky was pink is on there, and that's sort of like survived through to the modern day. Yeah, like because I know I sort of still play it in my live sets most of the time. Um, I went through quite a long period of not playing it in my live sets because it's like, oh, it's uh it's obvious, but uh it kind of like enough time has passed that it's like oh okay, most people who come and see who are seeing me know it, so it's always a good one to play it.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, do you um when when you started playing it again, did you have to go and listen to the original version to or do you was it sort of just in you or in Oh yeah, it's just yeah, it's like I've got a I've got kind of a not a photographic memory, but for like music, I thought of having very like strong memories of stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

So I don't yeah, I don't have to like also I like that I like just sort of doing it, coming back to it, kind of like because it is a different version, I don't just play the straight up original or James's remix, obviously. So it's like this sort of kind of a pumped up version that with the same chords and melody, you know, which is the main bit.

Paul:

So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely important, I imagine, to if you're playing a material that has been around for a while to find some something new in it that you can get out of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because naturally there kind of is like because I I sometimes play Outhouse, which is my first ever release ever, which is 2003 a single. But I still play that now and then because that was obviously a couple of years ago, that was the 20-year anniversary of that. So I sort of but it kind of naturally comes out because my live set is quite improvised, and you know, I don't I it it's kind of different every time. So putting the old ones in is quite interesting because it's they they they definitely will come out different than the the originals, you know. So it's always that's a nice sort of uh way to play them, I think, and sort of gives it interesting to me to sort of play them like that.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, because you're you're a different person than you would have been uh a different stage in your life, isn't it? So I I think we always approach material just naturally without perhaps even needing to try and update it, it just it's gonna be different, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah.

Paul:

And how how do you think you've changed the most in in say, well, okay, let's go for it. I was gonna say the 20 years, but let's say like the 23 years since the first single.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean that I was I was pretty young, so I was like 20 when it came out, which is I mean, I think nowadays there's a lot of a lot of artists sort of break through really young, but back then it didn't seem because I know because James did obviously, and he's he's a few years older than me, but you know, yeah, this is James Holden, yeah. Yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah. And um it's also like being under his wing, he'd sort of like done that on a bigger scale, but you know, it was like he started off like I think his first record he was like 18 when it came out. Also I was like very naive. You know, I had quite a sheltered upbringing, I suppose. So I was very like even even for a 20-year-old, I was quite naive. Um and I've done a lot of growing up since then. I think that is like it's weird being thrown into this thing because I'm from like a very humble, sort of like very rural England background, like no clubs or no big cities or anything. So it's weird sort of like being thrown into it, but I I somehow kind of coped, and I think that's how I'm different now. Is that I'm just like I'm a lot more well, I'm I remember 43 now, so you know I'm obviously different to how I was when I was 20, but uh I feel like that has sort of uh it kind of it was a sort of kick up the ass really because I because I could have like, you know, I could have just sort of like I don't know, messed it up or something, but thankfully I didn't. So yeah, here we are.

Paul:

Yeah, I mean I would I'm gonna dig in a little bit more in a bit if that's all right, too. Like your upbringing. Um, but I feel like one of the things that like I feel listening to the new album that I get, I mean, there's always been like a strong melodic element that's kind of crept into your work, but I feel like on the new album there's moments where it feels like really driven by like kind of a melodic emotion, you know, like there's lots of sort of like chords and you know, it weirdly reminded me a bit of like Angelo Badalamenti's work, like you know, the Twin Peaks stuff. It sort of had that sort of melancholic emotion coming through it. Was there something that you were trying to draw on there, or or do these things just kind of come out natural?

SPEAKER_01:

Both really because like when I started sort of working on this album, I I kind of had the idea that it was going to be just like an ambient album, which it's leaning towards that, but it's not yeah, because I meant ambient as in like you know, just no drums and very minimal sort of textures. I thought, well, that's a bit might be a bit too sort of uh I don't know, I don't know if that'll be enough of a splash or something to that combat. Yeah, because the last couple of albums I've made, and well, pretty much all of them except the series that have been quite sort of drum heavy. That's always kind of always what I've been. I've always sort of like focused on drums, even though my stuff's sort of melodic, it's like I'm really, really into like making drum patterns and stuff. But I wanted to kind of like not do that for this one. I mean, there are other drums on the album, but like I didn't want it to be like kind of because it's kind of a comfort zone kind of doing some like 130 BPM technoy, whatever it is, which yeah, I I think I'll always love doing that sort of thing. And the live set is still still actually sort of adapted to that or that sort of um uh you know template, but yeah, yeah, I did I so she mentioned the sort of textures and stuff because that is I was trying to sort of do stuff that sounded a bit different, and I can't really tell if it does sound different, but I think it sounds yeah, I haven't done an album that sounds like that because the last album I did that was like sort of in that vein was probably uh well might be the first one, or um or Providence, where it was like yeah, purposefully no sort of dance music tracks. So like um yeah, I'm super happy with it.

Paul:

Yeah, and was there something that like was there a decision that went into for that sound beforehand, or like were you going like okay, the last album was like this, I wanna, you know, because the last album was a lot more like more dancy, a lot more club. Um was the was it like a conscious decision to go, okay, the next one's gonna be different from that?

SPEAKER_01:

It kind of it was actually because yeah, but so the last album, Crystal Vision, and also the one before that, blizzards. I'll say Blizzards is probably even sort of like harder sounding than Crystal Vision. I thought, well, I can't just make another I could, but I I want to do something a bit different, and I always like it'd been so long since I've made kind of like quite sort of like chill music. Like I don't like the word chill, but you know what I mean.

Paul:

No one no one's thought of I don't know. I I I always struggle with that as well. Like I feel like um in terms of using the word chill just to relax as well, like personally. I I really hate saying it, but I feel like there hasn't come up. I can't think of a word that describes it better at the same time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's like the consensus, yeah. That's the word sort of like pan English sort of word. But um I'd say like I think a word I used to describe it is breezy, although not like I said there are bits of it that are very sort of like whereas some bits of it were sort of like have come out sort of unintentionally, a bit sort of blade runner-ish, where it's like quite kind of like murky and like you know, whereas there are other trucks that are very sort of like daytime, like you know, sunny type music. That's what I that's basically what I wanted to do, but I was like making albums that uh that sort of worked being sort of more versatile, really, yeah. So uh but yeah, it was just um I wanted to do something that I hadn't really done before, and sort of approaching it as an ambient album sort of helped because I hadn't done that before.

Paul:

So yeah, and then you end up getting a result that's not exactly an ambient album, but it's also like a uh a different take on what you've done before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it always I know I find that it's pretty like that with all sorts of art forms, you know. Your initial sort of brief, you know, the end product is always like not totally straight from it because it ends up in a slightly different place to what you planned, but you know, in a good way comes in. Yeah, that's kind of how it went, I think. Yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's an interesting uh that's an interesting point, actually. Like, I mean, I don't know if you do commercial work on the side, and I'm not gonna grill on that, that's everyone's own prerogative. But I think like one of the differences between doing like your own creative work for yourself and like when when like artists do commercial work is that is that whole thing about the brief, you know, it's like it can be quite hard in commercial work to go, oh fuck, you know, I've gone with this and I've still got to stick to this brief because like this, you know, this boss wants wants something delivered sort of tailor-made. Whereas like I think, you know, art is you know, you start off with something and then it so often like goes off piste, and or you go with something that is actually what you originally wanted, but in a totally different way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well I find like because obviously with commercial stuff that you know commercial stuff and like an artist doing their own music are sort of polar opposites here, because obviously the commercial stuff there will, you know, if you if you if it isn't quite what they expected, then they will tell you what to change. You know, it's like okay, I'll do that then you it's literally just like it is like just work. There are obviously agency involved, but like and then the other end of the scale is like it's completely sort of like carte blanche, isn't it? So like which can be yeah, because I often get quite intimidated by like just like having a complete blank page and it's just like what am I gonna do, you know. But then for for somebody who works making nothing but commercial music might might love that, you know, because it's you know not what they normally do. But yeah, it is it is funny to sort of like just also when when you know an artist is making complete like their own stuff, it is just like yeah, you have to give yourself guidelines, really otherwise you just float around, I think. I don't know. I've been in that spot before where it's just like I'm not sure what to do now, you know.

Paul:

Yeah, I mean, are there any guidelines that you know that have always worked for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Well I suppose there's the general ones which are just sort of like I suppose my own sort of way of writing melodies is quite specific, and the way I make drum patterns is specific. So those guidelines are sort of pre-set out, really. And and I'll set additional ones like you know, for like I said, the ambient thing. Um but blizzards and and crystal vision, they were they were they were completely just there was no plan for them, they just came out and you know and it came out as like being sort of rather club-oriented music, which is fine, but yeah, I mean I wanted to sort of like do something not you know not do that again because it would have just been like Crystal Vision's part two, otherwise, which yeah isn't necessarily a bad thing, but yeah, I wanted to make the album a bit more distinctive.

Paul:

So yeah, yeah. And I was wondering how much like your equipment plays into it because um I mean I don't know how up to date I mean from researching, I mean I things might have changed, but do you still use mostly like uh cubase to tie things together?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I use a mixture of things, yeah. So it's like a mixture of the old and the new. I think whenever I sort of go to sort of write a sketch or just have an idea to get down, I'll go to that old stuff because I'm just it's like sort of got into my brain by now because I've been using the show. So yeah, there's and that is a you know, because it's an old piece of software, it's very, very limiting compared to like you know, the most recent version of Able to fraction like a fraction of size. But I like I like that, yeah. I like because uh mainly because I'm used to it, I'm sort of like a creature of habit in a way. But like um I thought yeah, yeah, it still works, like as in the stuff that I get out of it doesn't sound like shit to me. But I don't I also I quite like stuff that sounds a bit showing raw. But like I think that's why I yeah, I I I've always shied away from sort of like high-end kind of showy technology. There's nothing wrong with that stuff, but I personally have always it's always been I've always preferred I don't know why I've always preferred to just use like kind of crap stuff, because even from the first album, I was using like the Cassio keyboard I had as a kid for like certain sounds. I just love the idea of like putting this in the context of like you know, actual music, yeah, like cool electronic music, or you know, however people perceive it, but like and that's persisted to this day because I still do stuff like that and I still love sort of you like. Of stuff that no one would ever know where it was from, you know, just like stuff that's basically like really, really uncool, or just like you know, just weird TV stuff or something, and just putting it in the context of like a club track, you know, just watching it to sort of get out there and see. Yeah, I kind of like I like I like the fact that no one has a clue what it is, but here they're dancing to it, and it's like, yeah, I like that sort of stuff.

Paul:

It's like a little secret joke that you have with yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and like yeah, obviously, but I don't sort of ignore modern technology. I mean, you know, there's amazing stuff, and probably for more like stuff of like recording and kind of mastering type stuff, I'll use kind of modern stuff, yeah. Because they are you know, some of them like magic. But um I I am very, very happy and comfortable with using like stuff that's very, very basic. I've always loved doing that. So I don't really know why.

Paul:

But yeah, yeah, so it's not like it's not like a sort of Billy childish style thing of like going like you know, the music's gotta be mono, it's gotta be stell like this. It's it's like do you think that it's more like something that like using cue bass on certain stages of the music is something that kind of is a sort of really good entry into just like not having to think, I don't know, like just a free reign for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's just kind of it's just my instrument, I suppose, or yeah, but just you know, cue bass and cool edit is another major thing I use when I'm on that system and like the sort of plugins from that era, like I'm very, very attached to them, and you know, I've gone through phases of like I need to stop that, and then I'll be like, No, I don't need to stop using it. I feel like it's user might still use it because it I think it's still I still get results out of it.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, totally. That's basically it. Yeah, and do you still um also record the a lot of the synth parts onto cassette and then feed them back?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I do that's the other thing because I do a bit, and there's also a bit of laziness because type emulator plugins are so amazing now. So I just I don't use them quite a lot, but they're yeah, they're they're really good. That's what I mean about the sort of modern technology because obviously that kind of thing was impossible 20 25 years ago. Um so that's what that's exactly what I mean. Like when I I really you know love some like really modern things. I like blending the two. I feel that's like that's sort of like gives me a buzz, sort of doing that. Same thing. I don't yeah, it's like blending a Casio keyboard with like a 909 or something, yeah, just mixing stuff that doesn't people don't normally seem to put together.

Paul:

Yeah, and often it's the contrast of things, isn't it, that I think makes a lot of things interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, like hard drums and sort of relush synths. I mean a lot of people do that because it sounds good, you know.

Paul:

And I I think if you put like like say hard drums with hard simphs, that's definitely that can definitely work, but that is definitely so that's like acid, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does totally work, yeah. But like also the whole more than ever, I think the whole sort of like lush pads with like techno beats. I think so much uh clever music sounds like that now. And it didn't, I think when border communities came out, like the label of the James Holden's label. Yeah, no one was really doing that, and James, I felt sort of like invented, but you know, he was known for like doing that, and a lot of people in the same sort of scene were sort of more kind of like traditional at the time, you know. And he was doing this thing of sort of mixing like well, he would call it trance, but to me it was like techno with melodies that sort of sounded more like kind of electronica world rather than sort of club music world, and that's sort of what I really loved about it. I guess what I still love. I think everyone else is everyone else is caught on now, maybe because the border community, you know, it's like that planted seed for like I don't know, British sort of uh electronic music music is yeah, yeah, no, definitely, definitely.

Paul:

I mean, I think it's sort of things kind of come around, don't they? I mean, I've I definitely feel that back in the early 2000s, I you know, like you know, the way you know he and yourself bought that artists on border community bought those two elements together. Also, to me, it sort of felt like there was this sort of that I also got with like 90s artists a little bit as well, like broadcast or like Boards of Canada, like this sort of like you know, that kind of weird like you mentioning as well about like TV samples, that kind of nostalgia modern, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean particularly, yeah. Yeah, definitely sort of like kind of 1950s sort of sound, but it at the same time it was like you know, modern and edgy.

Paul:

But yeah, it sort of felt a bit like uh like radiophonic workshop people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like stuff to do or the sort of delay, like this. I think they use like kind of like really old sort of delay units and stuff and all that. Maybe it's just tape delay, but yeah, like very sort of it was like a very sort of authentic vintage sound. Modern vintage.

Paul:

Yeah, definitely. And I think when I've listened back to their music, I mean some of their music, some of the whole albums that I can't actually work out what a lot of the sounds are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love that, yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, like whether it's a synth or whether it's some like you say, like tape echoed, like like live instrument that they've treated somehow.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the thing, I think because that that's kind of disappeared, I feel. It's the same with like um like films, you know, now they're having CGI or probably seem to be AI, I suppose. Like there's like very, very impressive visual effects, but you don't sit there thinking, oh, how did they do that? Because yeah, it was CGI. Like that's all it is, you know, which is like it's sort of just like tick-stat box of that's how they did it on a computer next. Whereas you know, you watch like older films like Toad Gilliam films, and you know it's all like hard sets and like props, you know, like actual objects that were they built, you know. And I think that's the thing with like you listen to stuff like broadcast or just actual music, you know, it's like you wonder how they did bits of it, whereas now it's like, oh it's a plugin. Yeah, it's just like yeah, yeah, it's just like oh it's it sounds amazing, but yeah, it's just some plugin that they've got, you know. It's like yeah, it might be, it might not be that, but that's sort of where for me, that's sort of where my head goes. But it's like uh it sounds amazing, but you know, there's loads of amazing software now. But um, I also thought it's interesting to sort of do stuff with like I could keep saying sort of like cheap gear, you know, like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul:

I I feel like I mean I can be quite judgy on on like films, particularly modern films that sort of rely on CGI, and I think that's a really interesting analogy to compare it to like say uh music and like using like plugins or maybe the over-reliance on like a very particular sort of set group of plugins that people have. It sort of stops you. I mean, for me, it sort of stops me engaging a little bit because you you know there's no mystery to yeah, the technology is very impressive.

SPEAKER_01:

Like AI, I mean AI is very impressive technology, but like the way it's used is like just well, you just you just use it and that's it, you know. Like I think like with older like music production or film production, you know, it's like it was more about human creativity, like what making something special out of like kind of whatever, you know. Yeah, I I that's disappeared, I think. I think that'll only especially with AI. I mean, I'm not against AI, but it's just like that it will get a bit more like that, where the technology is very impressive, but people's skills will maybe might diminish because they're not required to use them. I don't know.

Paul:

Yeah, I think limitations really do like help creativity and force decisions. And like, I mean, I was thinking about like the I don't know if you've seen like the that recent Indiana Jones film that came out a couple of years ago. Uh don't worry, you don't need to ever watch it, but um but like I mean I sort of watched it and comparing it to Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know, like you know, and thinking like there's so much in that that is just like a bit chonky when you watch it now, but you really get into it, it sort of feels like dirty and sort of like real, yeah, like real objects and stuff. Yeah, you're there with them on it, yeah, yeah. And I think that's the same with uh music that is over reliant on like using plugins, not I don't not nothing against plugins, but not not letting the plugins sort of how because they're using the plugins, they're not perhaps pushing the idea because they're they don't need to go, oh fuck, how am I gonna find this sound, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. I think it is sort of it it kind of is less sort of wondrous, isn't it? Because it's like when you watch those old films or listen to them, you sort of wonder how that thing where you said, like wondering how they did it, and that's sort of I think yeah, like the technology is just you just assume that there's some high-tech thing that did it, and that's the end of that thought, you know. Like, yeah, so I think that's yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Paul:

I mean, with the new album as well, you um you you've got a picture of your face on the cover, and yeah, you know, you you it traditionally, you know, you've been quite, you know, you let the music do the yeah, it's the first time I've had my own face. Yeah, was there a reason behind that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, actually, it was a mixture of like the label and me and my manager. Um, because a friend of mine sort of did some like ideas for the artwork that didn't include my face. And I'd sort of talk to the idea with a couple of albums ago, like having some, but then I just sort of didn't like the results. Yeah, um, and it was it was actually the label who suggested the cover that ended up being, you know, like the early version of like the covers. And I thought, yeah, that's quite an interesting. I mean, my face is very sort of like garbled on it, but like I thought that would be a nice, nice change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul:

I mean, I I think like uh like reading like the press release about it, there's there is this sort of thing about talking about the idea about like kind of content relating to it as well. Like, you know, you've always been very much like an album person, and you know, talking to you so far today, you know, is that that seems to really like the you know how we're talking about like how like you know, albums are opportunities to sort of do something different, try something out, you know, and also a different part of your life, you know. Um, what are your feelings about the state of albums like in 2026, like now with the sort of ubiquity of content and the kind of the pressure of artists to churn things out and perhaps not always have like the full bandwidth for like the attention for like an album?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean I think there'll there'll always be an audience for like actual albums, um, because obviously like with sort of streaming platforms, the kind of mainstream listener demographic is probably bigger than ever, and the the sort of underground whatever demographic is like smaller than ever. Um so yeah, obviously, like it is sort of subconsciously or consciously sort of like influencing people to sort of make music that works on streaming, but like it's funny because there's a track on Evaporator called Slow Yamaha, which is about nine minutes long, and the label really wanted me to like shorten it, and I was just like, oh I don't really want to, and I sort of tried a shorter version and like didn't like it, and so I ended up persuading that I was just pleased for yourself as a long version. And like people sort of so many people have mentioned it in a sort of positive way. So that is a long track on that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I because I've you know, I'm obviously grew up in the 90s where especially with electronic music, all albums were like dead long back then. I remember like albums but albums by like Orteca or Orbital that were like you know the full 74 minutes or whatever of a CD, you know, which you never you never get out. It's like 45 minutes, which is you know, I've always quite liked short, sharp first albums as well, like Apex's um the Richard D. James album is about half an hour, but it's like you know, because it's so dense and like it's like 11 tracks, but it doesn't feel like a short album. But um yeah, I suppose my nine-minute long track won't get as many plays as a shorter track, but I feel like the people that care about sort of stuff will appreciate it, and that's more who I'm aiming at, really. Like I'm not really aiming at sort of random algorithm plays. That's fine, but like yeah, I it's sort of I want to sort of stay true to myself because I mean the definition of underground has always been sort of ambiguous, but like it's I think nowadays it might would that mean just not being online at all? Because there's obviously a lot of music that isn't released online, you know. I suppose the actual the general uh amount of music that's released these days is a lot more than it was. Definitely it just seems there's a lot more, you know, because the release rates are sort of higher, and more people make it because the the tools are much more available, I suppose. And like there's so much more music. So that must exist, uh you know, where it has to, where it's just like stuff that's completely not online, but the data obviously aren't going for like many listens, but this is apply to stuff that isn't on the internet, so yeah. It's cool that I think that will always exist. I think it's cool, yeah. That always has like weird like existence of things like yeah, yeah, or people that just have to do it. Yeah, but I'm I'm yeah, I'm surprised at like the amount of stuff that is on Spotify, or you know, just like when you go to when you put a video on Instagram or a post, you sort of put some music. It has like yeah, there's so much stuff on there. I'm surprised at stuff that is on there. So um, yeah, it is what it is.

Paul:

It is what it is, yeah. I wanna I want to sort of talk a little bit about like your early days. So you grew up in rural Norfolk, um, and I was wondering if you could sort of describe so this was like so you say you're 43 now, so this would have been like in the like late 80s and the the 90s, and what was the sort of because I I'm also from a small English sort of rural town, and like um Wimborne in Dorset. Okay, yeah. Um, I mean it's sort of connected to a bigger sprawl, but it's sort of like the last little sprawl of Bournemouth before you get to like, you know, Fields and Castles, well, a castle and stuff like that. Um but like I mean, how how do you think that impacted you know your early music development?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think it definitely shaped um sort of the fact that I'm kind of like very much I've always done stuff completely alone, like sort of bitty no mates, but like um it's just because basically at school where I went to school, no one else had mates that were into like similar music, but no one else is into like or interested in sort of making it, and so because I mean yeah, I went to very small schools rural in Norfolk, so a huge variety of people that you'd probably get in like a big city or whatever. Um, most people just into like sport, and that was it really. And there's like a handful of people that were like into music, so yeah, I feel like because I sort of figured it out on my own, and it was obviously pre-internet, so it was just completely like just zooming out in a sort of weird not unusual way, I suppose. And I'm quite thankful for that because I think that's probably why I still use it with old software and stuff, because I'm just that's sort of what I'm used to. But like yeah, it's funny. I think nowadays, uh because people sort of ask me today, uh these days they're sort of saying I was just living in Norfolk. Is that why your music is sort of quite sort of lush or whatever? It's like well, I don't know if you live in Norwich that make drum and bass or you know, yeah, like just funky house or something, you know, it's so it doesn't matter where you're from. I mean but obviously the internet enables that because you can just live anywhere that's got an internet connection and like whatever, and people have people are sort of exposed to just everything now, aren't they? So all the genres have kind of melted together a bit, I think. But um, yeah, it was like and it's the 90s, which is a obviously, you know, you know, I didn't realize at the time, but it's a very interesting time for a very pivotal time for like electronic music. Yeah, it was weird, but I just remember stuff like the prodigy being on daytime radio, which you wouldn't really get now, which it'd be like the the idea of pop music back then was just whatever was sort of new and popular, whereas now it seems very uh regimented as to what it is, you know, it's like formulaics or pop songs.

Paul:

Um yeah, very focused groups, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's yeah, and it's funny like seeing things like well, I suppose you know the notion of like dance music only really started because before that it would have been like disco, wouldn't it? Or like italo disco, which was basically electronic music, but it wasn't called dance music or club music, but it kind of was the same thing. And like just in hindsight, seeing how that developed throughout my sort of childhood, you know, and that's interesting time to be alive, really. Yeah, I think that had a lot to do with it.

Paul:

What were you um how how were you discovering music?

SPEAKER_01:

Radio, yeah, because it because yeah, again, because it was rural north, there were no sort of cool underground pirate slaves, it was just Radio One, like literally, which you know, Radio One was cool, like you know, there'd be loads of kids' stuff on sort of in the evenings and sort of late at night. I sort of heard all kinds, even it's stuff like Breeze Block or the evening session, they they would play, or John Peel, you know, just stuff like that. I'd hear loads of, or even like actually just on the sort of straight-up dance music shows. I ended up hearing quite a lot of stuff that I liked. So I think that might be more of first at James Holden's music, it was on like Pete Tong show. So it was just like, oh, what's this? Yeah, it just sounded like remember just it sounded very distinct from like most of the other stuff that's being played. So yeah, Radio One, thanks, BBC.

Paul:

Yeah, no, I I definitely remember that lots of times with like the evening session in in the 90s and uh and yeah, John Peel as well. And yeah, yeah. Um, what about like with was the music press an influence on you, or was that somewhere else?

SPEAKER_01:

I think, yeah, I I used to read like Jockey Slut. Yes, yeah, yeah, and like music magazine, the one that was like M-U-Z-I-K. Remember that one?

Paul:

That was a vaguely very, very I don't think it's something I've thought about for a very long time. So you know when you think about something after not having thought about it for like a couple of decades, it's like a weird little because they went, I think that when that folded.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think the guy that I think the guy that ran it is actually one of the main guys that meets MacLeod. So that's what happened. That's what sort of became of it. Yeah, that was sort of like the cooler end of like club music and then jockey slot was like the even cooler end of it, you know, like Freddy Techno, which was like what I was sort of like became really obsessed with, sort of in my late teens and early twenties. I was into that sort of stuff, and you know, stuff like Auto Calendar and Orteca and Apex Twin, you know, so it was like a kind of techno 4-4 kind of because that I was just really into like the adrenaline of like 4-4 beats, but I and I just realized that I think music now, a lot of artists combine those elements, but back then it was like there's a kind of warp electronica sort of scam, which has abrasive stuff and lush stuff, but it's not really club music in that sort of common sense, but like so that was they were like my two favourite kinds of music. So stuff like outhouse is just me mixing sort of like a border's kind of the style melody with you know a sort of tech house beat, which I hadn't heard anyone do before.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I've got I've got definitely had magazines to thank for that because yeah, also like cover mount CDs, you know. I yes over a lot of music from those.

Paul:

Yeah, me too, as well. I I used to love that thing about like there were certain magazines like Select was one as well that I would like you, I kind of knew when it was coming around when it would be in the shop, you know. Uh it'd be like, Oh, it's that Wednesday, it's Wednesday, you know, go go to shop, get it, and there'd be a cover mountain C D and being introduced to stuff, you know. But it was this is all you know like pre-internet, how yeah, totally, yeah, because that's how it isn't it. Yeah, yeah. It's a sort of element of like you'll get what you're given about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but I yeah, I like I quite like that, you know. It's just like it's kind of it's kind of luck, isn't it? You know, yeah. There was plenty of stuff I didn't like so much, and then there's other stuff I did like, and so and you just sort of you just kind of have it all thrown at you, and you're or yeah, well if you happen to hear it or not, you know, because I wonder if there's the music I've ever I would have liked even more than the stuff I did end up end up loving, you know, since I never heard it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I'm thinking about that now. I think I wish someone could just give me the music that I like or that I would like, you know, and that's some kind of like plug into my brain. This is what he likes. This is what you go.

Paul:

Yeah, like like a sort of uh like a like an organic algorithm. I don't mean like organic in the kind of fake name, but like a sort of like uh like if we were like had like a hive mind algorithm, people would just go, here you go.

SPEAKER_01:

That's maybe that isn't maybe that is the future. I mean it hasn't.

Paul:

That probably is, yeah, yeah, definitely. We'll go queue up at the Apple store for a little uh insert. I think that's that's gonna be the next thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think JK Rowling's gonna like it. I got the feeling that she's not gonna like the kind of the merging of yeah, all genders and cultures.

unknown:

Yeah, yeah.

Paul:

I mean, and I think I mean, so you weren't I mean, I got the impression like we you you were making starting to make music and like blending in um like the electronic with the more like club beats, but you weren't. Actually clubbing yourself were you?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I just I just loved the music. Yeah. And it wasn't until a bit older, sort of in my in my early 20s or late teens, when I sort of went to went to college in Reading, and like that was my introduction to like going out a lot, really. Yeah. And then London was nearby. That sort of uh ramped it up really because I was already pretty obsessed with you know various types of electronic music and sort of meeting people that also liked it was a big thing because there wasn't really anyone that was into the same stuff as me where I grew up, but there were loads of people at my college and uh people that ended up making friends with it, you know. So that was a huge factor in sort of like gaining confidence with it, I suppose. Yeah, like or like yeah, just sort of feeling good about it all, you know.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. And can you remember how you met James Holden?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I was actually online, yeah. Very early days of the internet, free all all social media, so it would have been around sort of 2002 or three. Um, because he was signed to this label that had a sort of message board, like a forum, which is just that that was that's like sort of prototype of social media almost. Yeah. Although it's like they were kind of closed communities, weren't they? But they were like this is a social media, yeah. So um I was on on that message board, and I don't think James was really on it, but I sort of made friends with people online as they were from sort of all over the world, really. So that's sort of uh exciting things about the internet at the time because that was something that I'd never experienced before. But I think I actually I just sent James because there was James's he had an email address on it on his website. So I think I just I just emailed him like a sort of 30-second clip of the track that became Outhouse. And I didn't know if he'd even write back, but he wrote back saying, Oh, that sounds that sounds great, like send me a full version. I says, Yeah, I'm still working on it, but I will, you know, and then that was how we met. And then when he you know, down the line when he sort of like wanted to sign it, I obviously ended up meeting him, going going to meet him and stuff. Um good times, yeah. This is quite a boring story.

Paul:

But like no, it's not at all. No, it's not at all. It's just it's quite refreshingly sort of like yeah, relatable, you know. Very straightforward. That's quite a you you said something earlier on about like how I think right at the beginning when I was asking you about like how you've changed since then, like, and you mentioned something about like you know, coming from Norfolk and not being in like a scene before and sort of maybe having a sort of naivety and like but then like getting into the industry and like sort of uh you have to sort of find your own yeah, you've got navigated somehow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, were were there any experiences that you can remember like back in the day though where you you sort of felt like, oh my god, I am just like I there's I've got a lot to learn here, you know, like any encounters with the sort of like the more tougher nature of the industry.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I've been I've generally it was sort of you know, down the line when the album came out, there was things like meeting sort of like publishers and that kind of thing, which I found very intimidating, but everyone's just like cool, you know, but it's like it's quite surreal, sort of going to like because it was chrysalis to start with, yeah. So we're going to like the chrysalis offices because I hadn't had very little experience with going to London at that point in my life. So like that was just huge, but like so, yeah, it was all it was all like weird and surreal and like just like made my head spin a bit, but like it was all positive, really. Yeah, they were all I haven't had any sort of like horrible experiences because you find that like I think people in the music industry and probably every industry is like if you aren't a nice person, you probably won't get very far because they don't want to work with you. So like people that are people that are in places are usually like you know, elderly decent people. So it's all I was sort of like relieved that I sort of saw that that seemed to be the case. You know, it's like oh people actually want like cool, yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, I definitely think that's true. I've definitely find that's true in like music communities and parts of the music industry where like people make music that isn't necessarily like the most primed for like huge numbers. I don't know what what it's like in I don't know what it's like in sort of like you know, the more like huge budget Grammy. Yeah, that's a different thing. Imagine maybe that's a different type of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

It's more less about the art, isn't it? More about sort of like um money, yeah. But like yeah, when when it's in that sort of zone where it's like it's still about sort of respecting creativity, and yeah, then people there are extremely cool, yeah, yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, and I think to enjoy like uh good music in in that this sense of what we're talking about, I guess, is like you've got to have quite open ears anyway, you know. You gotta be quite sort of like part of it is about like this sort of joy of like having a dialogue with the music yourself. The way they're using that sound is really nice, you know. I can kind of connect with that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, totally, yeah.

Paul:

Um, but I I did find like because I well I had like a little experience with the music industry, like sort of similar for me. I came from a small English town, uh, was in like a sort of lo-fi band signed to a major label. Uh but like back in the day, and I think the one thing that me and my bandmates did find was that there was, I mean I don't know if you'll relate to this, no worries if you don't at all, but like was just this sort of weird perception of like um having to go from something where before we got signed, like it didn't really really matter. Like no, it was all like made-up stuff that we were just putting down, and we were we were like made up, we had like a made-up music career that didn't exist because it was just us just doing and having fun, you know. And then you come out the other side, and then like it's actually there's a bit of a business or a bit of a career or a profession, you know. Did you find that there was anything for you like going from like small town life to like a recording artist, and like the debut album did have like a really big impact. Was there some process that you had to go through in terms of like going, oh okay, I am actually uh you know, like this isn't just like me making music for myself anymore, you know. Yeah, other people are interested now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. Well, like I think the first ever experience I had like that was when I it was when I'd met James and he had a gig in is it might have been Turn Mills, I don't think that exists anymore.

Paul:

Um, I don't think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it was Turn Mills. Um, and he played one of my tracks sort of unexpectedly. I didn't know he was gonna play it, and it was very it's like, oh, everyone's like carrying on dancing. It was like, oh, you know, what is it good enough to be played out in play? You know you don't you don't have you have no idea. It was like, oh everyone's just getting on with it, okay. Like everyone's like, this has suddenly got a bit of shit, you know. It's just like yeah, it's just like oh that's you know, obviously I was like over the moon because he played my track, but it's just like that's weird to see like you know, a club full of people just like not really noticing it, which is what I thought was quite cool. It's passable then, you know. Yeah, it passed the test, yeah. That's pretty big. So yeah, that that was like a that was something that I wasn't because I didn't know who was gonna play any of my tracks, so like sort of experiencing that would be like, all right, that's pretty weird, but cool. I suppose on the larger scale, I think when Outhouse, my first record, came out. Um I'm pretty sure it was Marianne Hobbs played it on uh on Radio One, and I was like, oh shit, it's on fucking radio one, you know. Yeah, and I just remember thinking that's crazy, you know, because I you know, I was listening to these shows in my bedroom as a sort of young teenager, and now I'm like, I'm on it. Just one track, but you know, it's still the fact she said my name, and it's just like, well, that's fucking mental, you know. So yeah, it is like those are the sort of like uh things I remember. Yeah, totally, yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I I could what was the band you were in?

Paul:

I mean, it was called Brothers in Sound. Um it's sort of yeah, I mean it's it's like there's not much of a footprint of it about like we had like a little minor ripple with the old sort of NME and Mix Mag back in the day, but um yeah, it was just I don't know, we didn't really find like a foundation to kind of keep running for too long with it, you know. But it was like we were just like totally experimenting, and then we didn't find a way to sort of stop experimenting and turn it into something labels.

SPEAKER_01:

I was really lucky out with borderline because yeah, I thought it worked very close with them, but yeah, I don't I don't know what it's like to sort of like start out and be sort of trying to find a label or working with a label that you don't know. Uh yeah, I thought it's lucky that I ended up working with people that I sort of was quite ended up being quite close friends with.

Paul:

I don't know, yeah. Yeah, and it's is there still a simple sorry, it's a minute.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no, I didn't, I didn't finish it.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, so like I mean, and then you move to Ninja Tune. Um, so you're not with them now.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I'm with um Infinite now, Frank label.

Paul:

Right, okay, yeah, and yeah, and and like how do you feel like the the relationships have sort of changed over time with with the labels? Is it you they still they still they still seem like very kind of like boutique, like yeah, well border community labels, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Border community definitely wasn't, um probably even more so now because they were sort of like they they grew quite a lot within sort of James and had his sort of hate, like quite hate it, right? But like um you know his sort of peak of his sort of DJ kind of career, and so that was a big thing, and then but the label essentially was just James and his partner Gemma running it still is so it's funny going to a label that had like a big office in you know with like about 20 people working as like wow, it's uh it's a lot going on there. Um yeah, it's like I noticed that you know until things happened a lot quicker because there's more people to facilitate things happening, which is understandable. Um but yeah, I did sort of miss the closeness of what I had with border community, you know, where I could just sort of have a manager as well. I didn't really have a manager for the first maybe like the first 10 years of my career, and then having a manager working with other labels was like pretty essential, really. Before that, Jones and Gemma were pretty much almost managing. Yeah. Looking back at the kind of relationship we had, and obviously, you know, uh kind of uh payment for that was me making money from the label by releasing music. But like um it's funny, yeah. I'm kind of used to it now, but it's it I was I was always like the young one, and now I'm like the older one. So like it's funny, like I'm older than everyone now, and when I started out, I was younger than everyone, like you know, everybody worked at labels or everyone that was like a promoter, they were older than me, and now I'm younger than ever. So yeah, now they're young, they're all younger than me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel very fortunate. I'm like lived to see through it all, you know, like survive, my music really survived. So it's interesting to see how things have changed.

Paul:

Yeah, and it's so interesting what you're saying about being the younger one and now the older one. And just sort of finally, I just wanted to ask on that thing. If you could tell your younger, the younger you something that you know now, is there something that you would tell them?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, just just do not like just do your own thing. I know that's really obvious, but it is so important just to like not worry about trends or like make something because I did there were times where I sort of made something for oh this all this is a bit current, you know, like so it is like I don't regret doing that, but it's like to have the sort of uh longevity, I think you do just have to like really kind of not care about what's going on. I mean, I I always I'm always aware of what's going on, the other stuff, but like I don't aspire to sort of fitting in as in making music that fits in with a certain DJ or whatever, or to try and get players on a certain uh radio show. It's just so important just to like do your own thing and not give a shit about don't miss anyone about equipment or like genres, just do your own thing, use whatever you want. Which I meant it might be harder nowadays, but yeah, I think uh you just have to do that.

Paul:

Yeah, 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, when I started out with the equipment side of things, yeah, it was like it was the software era for sure, because it was like the early 2000s, like when I sort of started making proper music and I was sort of messing around with stuff when I was younger. But sort of like I was using keybase, and then James is also using Keybase, but before that he was using this like free software. Um Tracker. What I know is all the people that I knew that made uh you know that were sort of in my field, everyone used something different. Everyone was using a different bit of sort of like reason or um logic or you know, I can't remember the other ones, reactor, you know, everyone was Maximus P or something like that. Yeah, that was like those brain boxes, yeah. Which James uses the nice that would use the brain boxes, um but like and now it's like obviously there's more options in sort of hardware and stuff, but it is just like Ableton has just got a monopoly on the whole software world, you know, mostly, isn't it? Like yeah, fair fair player because it's very, very powerful piece of software, but it seems like like what I was saying about plugins and CGI, it's like also you just assume every literally everyone uses Ableton. Now that's why I assume like all new music is probably made on Ableton. It's just like that's easy to where my mind jumped to. But before it was like you had no idea what people were using that problem.

Paul:

Yeah, and I think you had no idea, like um, unless you had like some kind of uh studio training or engineer training. Yeah, um, you had no idea, you know, there weren't YouTube tutorials or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Which I hate which I hate, I hate the fact. I mean, they are helpful, I know, but like it's sort of steering everyone in the same direction. So I hate that idea.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. This is how you make a new wave based behind.

SPEAKER_01:

How do I make uh you know how do I produce it properly? Which yeah, all that stuff, yeah, which isn't a thing, even it's just like yeah, it's not a fucking it's not a fucking carbonara. It's uh yeah, but it's you know, that's yeah, that's I kind of despise that, but you know, it's you can't, it's always gonna have existed because it's just the technology, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, information and it is I have used a couple sort of tech issues, you know, but I don't really agree with one. So like, how do I make techno easier? This is how you make techno easy like some type in America, like yeah.

Paul:

I mean, I think I think my only hope for that is if someone's starting out and they watch one of those videos, it sort of like acts as like a gateway that then leads them into sort of breaking that down, doing something different, you know. Maybe it's you know, like that musical gateway that you get into. But yeah, I do think also with things like Ableton, like um, yeah, like I'm not against them, and I'm you know, just I'm not against AI, but it's about like using them in a way where you're being productively creative and perhaps not going on the grid, for example, not yeah, totally, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think AI, I think, could be really interesting for like sound design, I think. Yeah, yeah, that's like a interesting that could be an interesting application of it. Or like you just like mastering, I don't know. Like maybe mastering engineers all go extinct. I mean, I I I sort of I really enjoy like mastering my tracks and stuff, but I'm sure AI could just probably do it.

Paul:

Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of people that really sort of don't like forking out like a grand and a half at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well it already exists, doesn't it? To sort of like there is sort of AI mastering what already exists. I think you can just upload a track to some company and it'll just master it and give it back to you.

Paul:

Bob's your uncle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nathan, thanks so much for chatting with me. Thank you. Hey, nice, man. Yeah, thanks for this one, isn't it? Okay, so that was me, Paul Hamford, talking with Nathan Fake for Lost and Sound, and we had that conversation on February the 6th, 2026. Thank you so much, Nathan, for sharing your time and thoughts with me there. Evaporator, the new album, is out on February the 20th on In Fine. And if you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe, give the show a rating and a review on a platform of your choice, it really helps. And yes, go on over to my Substack. I've started doing my Substack again, so that is lostandsound.substack.com. Go and give it a follow. I will be very, very chaffed if you do. Yes, Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica, a global but still family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality, yeah, affordable products, because they believe the high-quality audio should be accessible to all. So wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnica.com to check out all of their range of stuff. The music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of Lost and Sound, is by Tom Giddens, hyperlink in the podcast description. So yeah, that's it. Um that's it for today. I hope whatever you're doing, you're having a really great one, and I'll chat to you soon.