Mouse On Mars – Capturing Lee "Scratch" Perry's Last Session

Lee “Scratch” Perry reshaped how people think about the recording studio. So when I heard that his final official album project came out of a three-day session in Berlin with legendary electronic duo Mouse on Mars, I headed over to Kreuzberg to talk to Jan St. Werner and Andi Toma to find out what happened.

The duo have worked with everyone from Bon Iver to Stereolab to Mark E. Smith, made classic leftfield records like Niun Niggung, Idiology and Dimensional People and have always approached their work with irreverence and invention.

We talk about their decades-long creative partnership, the studios they’ve built and rebuilt, and a philosophy of working that can sometimes mean throwing ideas away rather than trying to force them into shape.

When Perry arrived at the Paraverse studio in 2019, Mouse on Mars had prepared for almost anything. What followed was a constantly moving recording session, with microphones set up across different rooms and musicians ready to follow wherever Perry took things. There was no conventional idea of a song, or much interest in making another reggae record. Parts of the record sound like an alternative reality Can record, where Damo Suzuki has stepped aside to let Perry take the vocal helm.

Jan and Andi were genial hosts during our hour together, and it’s obvious that spending those three days with such a legend at such a point in his life left an impression.

Lost and Sound is now fully independent, and listener support helps keep the project alive and growing. You can support the show for as little as the price of a coffee. I can’t offer Patreon-style bonus content at the moment — life is already too hectic to promise things I cannot properly deliver — but every contribution makes a real difference. Support the show

If you enjoyed the episode, follow Lost and Sound on Substack and me on Instagram, subscribe to the RSS Feed, and share the episode with someone who’d be into it. Independent journalism and independent podcasting still run on word of mouth.

Mouse On Mars on Bandcamp

Transcript

Perry, Mouse On Mars, And Studio Power

Paul 0:02

I don't think it would be hyperbole to suggest that Lee Scratch Perry was one of the most influential and groundbreaking artists of all time. In fact, anyone who's ever viewed the studio as a creative tool, as an instrument in itself, owes some kind of debt to Lee Scratch Perry. I think it would also be extremely true to note that the German duo Mouse on Mars are true musical outliers too. And they're a pair whose work I've been really into since the early noughts, actually. Um so in 2019, Lee Scratch Perry and Mouse on Mars got together and made Perry's last ever recording. And recently it finally came out. So what you're gonna hear is me trundling over to Mouse on Mars's studio in Berlin and have a chat about what happened when these three musical mavericks got together. Welcome to Lost and Sound.

Back By The Kreuzberg Canal

Paul 2:23

It's yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm on I'm on the socials as well, but this is a space where it's not so much about like short clips, it's about the ums and the ahs and the hesitations and the nuances and the complicated things and the things that aren't really yes or no or or that could be chopped up, even though I might chop a few bits of the interview up and use them on Instagram. You know what I mean, and it's it's great to be here, it's great to be back. I hope you're doing well. Um, as you may also, you probably know by now Lost and Sound is now monthly rather than weekly, and it's been a little bit over a month since the last episode. Sorry for the delay there. My excuse is really it's a summertime kind of excuse. I took some time out, I went offline, enjoyed the summer, um, but I'm very much enjoying being back and speaking to you right now. I'm sat, this is something also as well, if you're a long-term listener to Lost and Sound. I'm sat by a quiet stretch of the canal in Kreutzberg in Berlin. Now, this is a place where way back in the podcast's formative forming stages, I think when it f when it actually kind of got into a bit of a flow uh during the pandemic, uh, this is where I would trundle along. This was like mask era. I would trundle along, I would sit by the canal and speak to you to do the introduction bits for the podcast. We're talking like fucking six years ago now, how time flies, uh, sort of the weird innocent times of the pandemic. Who would have thought in six years' time it'd be cool at saying that? Um, but anyway, yes. Today you're gonna hear like a multi-layered conversation. On one level, I met up with two genuine musical outliers in their own right: the German electronic gyro Mouse on Mars, aka Jan St. Werner, and Andi Toma. And talking to them just in its own right is a proper lost and sound conversation. I've been into the pair's work since the early noughts, and you know, every few years, you know, I go off and do other things, listen to lots of music. Every few years they come back with something, and I'm always like, ah, okay, this is what they're doing now. So that's on one level, but on a second level, a lot of what we had to talk about in the conversation you're about to hear is an encounter they had, a three-day-long count encounter they had with a certain Mr. Lee Scratch Perry. So I'll explain. Firstly, a little bit of background on Mouse on Mars. They've been making music, idiosyncratic electronic music for over 30 years now, originally hailing from Düsseldorf in Germany, now living in Berlin. They've released over 10 albums, including, I'm gonna pronounce this really badly, Nien Nigung and Ideology. Uh, the former was declared an album of the year by The Wire, and those two albums were my jumping on point for what they were doing. Or there's something like 2019's Dimensional People, which somehow blended electric counterpoint style guitar ambience with a sort of conceptual vocal folk hip-hop kind of thing, and it also had like the audacity, they had the audacity to sort of work with uh Bon Eva and just use little fragments of his voice. They've not just worked with Bon Eva though, as well, they've worked with Stereo Lab, I think they produced Dots and Loops, Teondi Braxton, the national Matthew Herbert, mode selector, Tortoise, and the notorious legendary Mark E. Smith. So they've they've had a bit of like background working with iconoclastic artists. They've also managed to exist slightly out of conventional genre for their career. Their music has its clubby moments, but I wouldn't call them a clubby act. They're also pretty experimental, but they seem to often approach their work with a sense of irreverence, sometimes fun, but always like a sort of sense of openness that I feel is sometimes at odds with the more I guess orthodox tendencies that can emerge out of experimental music, if you take experimental music as a sort of like conceptual framework, if you know what I mean. I think if you put on any Mouse on Mars album, you'll get something a little unexpected from the last one. So, anyway, that's Mouse on Mars. In 2019, the pair got together for a three-day session with the genuinely legendary Lee Scratch Perry. And the results of that session have been released. Only took them seven years to release it as the album Spatial, No Problem, which came out on domino in June. Now, Perry died, as you know, in 2021. He was 85 years old. Um, what the three did over those three days in 2019 would be Perry's last recording. Yes, so we get into it about that. I don't think it would be hyperbole. I think I said this in the introduction a bit, didn't I, to say that Perry is truly one of the most groundbreaking artists, I think, in popular music history. I mean, aside from like his roots going back to Scar, to Rocksteady, to Roots Reggae to Sound Systems, to Dub, to Bob Marley and Julia Marvin and Max Romeo and the Congress and so many other legends, for me, and I think probably for I imagine a certain amount of you listening, what he really, really revolutionarised was like an attitude to the studio. Like for anyone who has ever considered the studio an instrument, a studio at all, which I think if you take into consideration like electronic music production is pretty much like everyone, Lee Perry is a true pioneer. So the three of them got together, we've established that. And what happened, you're gonna find out. So I met up with Jan and Andy, Mouse and Mars, in their studio, and this was about a month or so ago, a bit longer than that. And aside from firstly getting, I think what you're gonna find is a really fun, very charming lowdown on this pair's long-running dynamic and how they've managed to remain partners creatively for for such a long time. You're gonna find out some insights that they found out about working with Lee Scratch Perry, a total legend, the last time Lee Scratch Perry recorded anything. I know it might sound a bit glib and sort of like a bit kind of like, yes, folks, roll up here to hear what happened the last time Lee Perry was in the studio. But it's a you know, Andy and Jan are really insightful, creative people, and the lessons that you'll hear that they took away from this experience I think are really, really interesting. So, anyway, that's all coming up rather, rather, rather

Live Dates And Listener Housekeeping

Paul 9:52

soon. Um, before we get going, there's a couple of bits that I'd like to plug that are going on this month. If you missed it, I guest hosted an episode of Bandcamp Selects, one of Bandcamp's weekly radio shows last month. And I actually played a track from Spatial No Problem on it. Um, so if you've not heard it and you fancy, like I think it's just under two hours of quite jazz-infused, uh a little bit ambient as well, a little bit drony, but mostly sort of like jazz-infused music, go and check it out. Um there's a couple of live things going on, these are Berlin regional ones. I apologize to anyone not in Berlin that's got no fucking interest in Berlin as listen to this, but if you're in Berlin, go along and check these out. This is the so the first one is also for Band Camp. I am hosting a talk, listening session with the rather amazing Sophia Cortesis on August the 25th for Pop Kultur and Bandcamp. Um, so that's next Tuesday, if that's I mean depends when you're listening to the podcast, but that's Tuesday, August the 25th, but that's at the rather amazing Silent Green in Berlin. So that's me talking with Sophia Cortesis on August the 25th. There's going to be like a little bit of a listening session where I think we're going to play some highlights from her discography and sort of discuss her life around that. Um, another regional Berlin one. The following week on September the 3rd, I'm doing a shared talk, book readingslash QA, all sorts of righty music, Berlin-y, righty stuff, with fellow author Liam Cagney at Shakespeare and Sons Bookshop. Now, Liam recently wrote the rather excellent and rather acclaimed book Bergeine Knights, um, which I read and I loved, and in a way it's a little bit similar to my book Coming to Berlin, but is also very, very different. And we've never actually met. We've had a lot of like close calls to meeting, weirdly, a lot of like similar links, but we've never actually met. Um, I do love his book, and he's been pretty damn nice about my book as well, and so I'm really looking forward to that. So if you're in the locale at the time and you fancy listening to uh two middle-aged guys talking about electronic music in Berlin, that's where we're gonna be. That's uh me and Liam Cagney talking about our books at Shakespeare and Sons bookshop on September the 3rd. Um, yeah, so the other little bit of housekeeping is if you haven't followed Lost and Sound yet, please hit the RSS feed. Please subscribe, it really, really does make a difference. If you want to follow me on Facebook, um Facebook, what is this? 2016. If you want to follow me on Instagram, follow me at Paul Hanford. And if you want to follow the Substack, you can follow that. That's uh the Substack's just called Lost and Sound. Um, I'm I'm using that a lot more now than I have been, so do go over and check that out if you want to. Okay, so back to the conversation. Uh, the last ever recording with Lee Scratch Perry as witnessed and as sort of like collaborated on and as as gathered together and reflected on by Andy and Jan from the amazing Mouse on Mars. So this is Mouse on Mars. This is me, Paul Hamford. We had this chat on July the 7th, 2026, and this is it.

A Tour Of Their Studio History

Paul 13:29

Andy and Jan. Um thanks so much for speaking to me today for Lost and Sound. So we're in your studio in Kreuzberg in Berlin. And can you tell us a little bit about like how long you've been in this studio? Today? No, since forever.

Speaker 1 13:46

Yeah, yeah. No, we've been in studios, kind of feels it feels like being there forever.

Speaker 13:53

I mean, this studio moved along like 30 years ago. This moved out of Annie's home in Dusselov into a big construction hall type space, like a huge studio, um, loft kind of thing. Yeah, together with a painter, Sulis Mustakidis.

Speaker 1 14:11

Yeah, that was maybe the longest time we had the studio at one place.

Speaker 14:17

And that's where a lot of stuff was recorded. Neonigung, Autoditaka, um, ideology. I think the record with Wolfgang Fleur, Yamu, which actually Matmos uh said they're huge fans of that record. They said there are a couple of really crap songs on it, but generally said a couple of really good like songs they really like.

Speaker 2 14:40

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 14:41

Um, so yeah, cool. It's nice to hear. Um, Dots and Loops, and you recorded the fall. We recorded von Sudenfit. We recorded, we started doing orchestral like sketches for the orchestral work that we did around 2009 or 11, I can't remember.

Speaker 1 15:01

2009, I guess. Because 2010 I moved. Ah, okay. We had the space in a funk house. Yeah.

Speaker 15:10

Yeah, that was actually the first place in Berlin, no, where we moved to and we were there for a little while, no?

Speaker 2 15:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:17

Yeah, but then like it was taken over by this guy, and then things uh went strange.

Paul 15:24

I've had stories as well with outlets.

Speaker 1 15:27

Yeah, we had like an accident because he was renovating the the building, and then with a with a group of workers who lived in the funk house. And yeah, all this concrete dust uh got in our studio through the air condition, and everything was covered with concrete dust, which is the worst dust for equipment. The whole desk was grey, all the yeah, it took like two months to repair and clean it.

Paul 15:56

God, okay, yeah. You must that must have been quite a worry because that these equipment travelled for a lot of time, and also you can hear the equipment on so many amazing records to sort of think, uh, is this the end?

Speaker 16:09

Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, you can prepare any everything can be prepared. This is so amazing about like this analog equipment, you know. But I mean, sometimes you don't find parts, but then you find like a similar desk and you take out something, and it I mean that there's always ways, but it costs money and time, and you just want to stay in your flow and produce. And then from Funkhaus, we briefly spent time at Michelberger Hotel and had a had a room there, which was quite generous of Tommy.

Speaker 1 16:42

It was without that we would have been really homeless. Yeah, yeah, because at that time we had like work to do, and uh they gave us a space uh where the stuff was repaired because the one engineer had to clean all the stuff and uh exchange uh potentiometers and yeah. No, that was nice. From there, we had a we build up a real studio on Fosterstrasse, and now uh wait, it's a circle. Um it's the studio is back in my home. Oh god, we're dying soon, full circle.

How They Stay Creative Together

Paul 17:18

I mean, so you've been working together for more than 30 years now. What do you think? Uh has there been some way, like, because you know you're working together, it seems like you have a good relationship. What do you think has been the secret to basically having such a long creative partnership between you?

Speaker 17:36

Just not being offended by all the ridiculousness that the other person is coming up with on a daily basis. No, I think we're just tolerant.

Speaker 1 17:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We like uh I in any relationship, maybe it's it's it's important you you let some space for the other person, like to develop their own personality. At the same time, like you have to understand the other person. I mean, we we know it's very well, meanwhile, personally, but always it has been super easy for us because both of us have their own special way to work.

Speaker 18:19

And our parents are really happy that we we're around, like my parents are always like, Oh, so is Andy there as well? Yeah, and I'm like, Yeah, and they're not worried, they're like relaxed about it. And then Andy's mom just celebrated her birthday, and we were on the phone as well. And she's like, Oh yeah, and yeah, it's good, like kind of like in a way, like, it's good you take care of Andy, because we we we didn't manage to like get it right. It's good, it's good that you're around. Also, Andy likes to disappear. He he just like you you see him, and the next second he's gone. He's a bit like um a magician who can make himself disappear.

Paul 18:57

Like get on a couch to Copenhagen or you can't.

Speaker 18:59

You don't know because he's gone. He's just like Yeah, even though I'm there, no, I'm gone.

unknown 19:04

Yeah.

Speaker 19:05

So he's a he's a uh kind of a physics. I I like to sleep a lot, so and he lets me just like crash and lie. Like he's he's fine if I'm lying around wherever.

Paul 19:18

Yeah.

Speaker 19:18

It's like no, that you don't touch the guy, he's just taking time off sleeping there, and that helps.

Speaker 1 19:25

No, in general, it's like in our both uh creative uh ways. If if we create and if one person doesn't agree, what you are creating, it's not about yeah, but maybe you can change a little bit heights and then can like leave this. It's more or less okay, just just ignore it. Just ignore no, just uh don't use it because there's so many other stuff you can do.

Paul 19:50

Right. I think that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think it's very easy to just get stuck on an idea and start obsessing about an idea.

Speaker 1 19:56

Then just throw it in the bin. Yeah. And we're both very, very good in throwing stuff in the bin. Yeah, we're really good in throwing stuff in the bin.

Paul 20:05

Do you ever get worried that there might be in years to come like a retrospective where someone goes through the bin and finds the things that were meant to take away? Oh, that would be amazing.

Speaker 20:15

That would be great. Like if people could use the stuff we threw away, that would be I mean, actually, we do it.

Speaker 1 20:20

Uh like the last two albums uh we released uh on Mars and Mars on Sonic, they were all bin records. There were kind of not bin records, but but stuff we found which was left over and we we and which was recorded. One was recorded 30 years ago and the other one 20 something years ago. So actually a long time, which for us seems like it was yesterday.

Speaker 20:45

It was like it sounded good to us, like actual, like present, like yeah, made sense now. It's not like oh we've been using this type of equipment or this care still carries some of that spirit. It was like it's it's it's relevant like to our ears at this very moment. So let's keep working on it. We uh we're editing it a bit, maybe we we were adding a few dubs. Um, we have a third one, same kind of same thing. We yeah, we need to finish this one. That's also why with this Lee Skishperry album, it's no problem for us to actually work on something for six years.

Speaker 2 21:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 21:28

Might some things just like you work on them.

Speaker 1 21:31

Yeah, sometimes because we do things in parallel. It's not like we we sit on it like every day, it's like just sometimes grab it and see and listen, maybe just listen to it and then yeah.

Paul 21:44

So you have like a sense of patience for things to deliver in their own time?

Speaker 21:49

I think we anyway have a weird time. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's patience. Yeah, me neither actually.

Speaker 1 21:56

It's I don't think we're patient at all. I mean actually, I mean it's like you have other things to to work on. I mean it's important to move on and like being in a process with with something. Or you have explicit you say like uh I'm I need uh like half a year break, I don't do anything, I I grow cheese or something, like something different, you know.

Speaker 2 22:25

Yeah.

Speaker 22:25

I feel when we don't see ourselves in competition because we're not really part of a you know a movement or a specific style, or I mean we have friends from so many different backgrounds, or if you want genre, so just like totally different ideas of like how they approach their work and their yeah, their careers or their practices. So we feel friendly with those people, they're friends, but we don't really feel affiliated when we don't well with a style or yeah, a particular time, even like sometimes we're like, yeah, that sounds pretty 90s, but then we don't actually feel like it sounds like like the stuff we did. I don't know. Yeah, it's like sometimes you hear something you think, wow, that sounds really 90s, and then you're like, hmm, we cannot really relate this feeling or this quality of sound to to what we do. I mean, some people do, that's totally fine, but for us, it's like we feel like everything's always present, kind of at the same time. The way we make sound, no matter what we use, what technology we use, or equipment, you know, it kind of always has a particular way, how it sounds, or we work until we feel comfortable with it, and then it kind of sounds like the stuff we always do somehow. We're sometimes disappointed. People give us really like new equipment that we find something, and then after a while working with it, it sounds exactly like all the other stuff we've been doing.

Paul 24:06

Yeah, I mean, I I like the idea that like when an artist doesn't have to necessarily think about genre or expectation, they'll just end up doing what they always do in a sort of strange way because it's just you, isn't it?

Speaker 24:19

I I don't even feel like we look for ourselves in what we do. We we do actually look for something that isn't us. I mean something different, like a way, like kind of we we work on glasses through which you can see, or in our case, hear the world, like something that it it it helps to focus or like just access the world, and then the world kind of flows through that lens or you know, whatever ocular, uh what's it, a monocular or binocular or whatever, or trinocular that we've built, and then that's how we conceive the world. So we work on these tools to access and kind of comprehend what's around us, but in a way we always work on a more or less similar thing. We try to stretch, of course, the practice and be like have little prejudice of what we actually do expect, but we're constantly crafting and fiddling and screwing and fixing and yeah. We I think at some point, I I don't know, I think Andy had this metaphor that we're like it seems like we're on a bus, and while the bus is riding, we fix it. So so the bus is riding and we replace the wheel while the bus is riding, and it feels like that's a good metaphor for for Mars of Mars. It's like a constant, it's a vehicle in constant movement, and sometimes you know a little record kind of falls off the shelf.

Paul 25:48

Yeah, okay, yeah. I have this picture now of a boss with like a record falling off every seven years. Um reason the film Speed, I don't know where, but uh Um so mention before we get into the album the working for these crack period, there's something I just wanted to touch on that that you mentioned about uh your mother and birthdays. And is it true there's a there's stuff online that says that you were both born on the same day in the same hospital? Is that true?

Speaker 26:14

Of course, internet is it doesn't lie.

Paul 26:16

It never lies, does it? No, there's no no such thing as fake news. Um fake news.

Speaker 1 26:23

Yeah. It's amazing that it stays, no, like this. Yeah, because it sounds very natural. Still stay until we die.

Speaker 26:31

We're probably dying at this uh in the same hospital. Wow, I don't want to die in the hospital. No, me neither.

Speaker 1 26:39

No, not at all. Okay.

Speaker 26:41

But imagine if you want to die in a bed, then we have to die in the same bed. That's would that would be scandalous, no?

Paul 26:48

I mean, unless it was local.

Speaker 1 26:49

It's like it's like the two guys from Muppet Shows.

Paul 26:52

That's what I was thinking, like in a kind of 70s sitcom Muppet show work.

Speaker 26:57

Yeah, the balcony just breaks, like comes off.

Paul 27:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:01

Under the rubble. It it's I mean, if we die like pretty close by, so it should be written like this, you know.

Paul 27:09

Would you have a joint grave um cemetery gravestone?

Speaker 27:15

It would make things easier for everyone. Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:19

Yeah, I wanted to have a pyramid.

Speaker 27:22

Ah.

Paul 27:23

I mean, there would be enough space for a lot of people, actually. Would you who else would you take with you in the pyramid?

Speaker 1 27:30

Like uh my wife's and um like all the my the people working for me and like cats and yeah, and my all my jewelry and my laptop. For me, just spice cake. Yeah.

Early Influences And Cologne Connections

Paul 27:47

I mean, so we began in the early 90s, um, and this was like in Cologne and Düsseldorf. At the same time as this, there was the whole, you know, roughly in the same sort of six or seven year period, there was the whole kind of like um electronic music explosion, like in Frankfurt and uh and in Berlin, and the the cities that you came from had this amazing kind of like you know, the kraut rock heritage. Um, you you were sort of saying earlier on about how you sort of view yourself as being separate from all of these things, although like being connected socially and perhaps like in terms of like working with people, but being maybe sonically and the way you were separate. But I was wondering for you at the time, back in the early 90s, what were you drawing on? What were your kind of influences? What was your sort of starting point for the project?

Speaker 28:36

Sound, it was really listening to stuff.

Speaker 1 28:39

Actually, uh also with like the the interest for sound and uh sound aesthetics and like musically socialized. I think I mean we were social quite like as everybody, because you at that time you listen to radio shows and you're influenced by American or English music, and I wouldn't say it was explicit, we didn't feel like we are connected to crowds at that time. It was another style of music existing, but um close.

Speaker 29:18

Uh no, and also like if you like one influence, at least for me living in Cologne at that time was Armusik and the this these people around that record show the label and distribution, and it's a small circle, but still I learned a lot about electroacoustic music. Markus Schmickler gave me the first Parmigiani album, like that I owned. And I mean we listen to experimental things. I don't know, Asmus Titians, you could say that's crowd rock at the same time. It's pretty unknown to most people who listen to you know can neue craftwerk, these kind of things, Amundu, Populu.

Speaker 1 29:59

But it was kind of present because you were neighbor of uh Chuka Chuka in Cologne. And I met actually Jackie Liebitzheit, yeah, also, and I did sessions. I remember uh there were like uh jams, and I was yeah, invited, or I'm actually I don't remember how I got in that, but I I also visited the Cannes studio, did recordings in the Cannes studio, and there was um who was the guy, the Swiss guy. Um Swiss guy? Yeah, who who recorded the Cannes stuff? Andre Tinner. Yeah, Andre Tinner. He was yeah, oder René Tinner, yeah, yeah. René Tinna. Yeah, he was like a very normal, like a very friendly guy.

Speaker 30:47

But there was, I mean, there were a million influences from like I mean musically from dub to funk stuff. I wasn't too much into funk, but then my friend Schlumpheiziger, he was really into funk music and he taught me a lot about funk stuff that I didn't know about, and then I liked guitar music more like English, British kind of music, but also proggy stuff, and and he was a big fan of uh Adrian Sherwood stuff, but also Flying Lizards, which is kind of a weird experimental band at the same time. They were dub influences.

Speaker 1 31:25

Yeah, also like I liked Soul stuff.

Speaker 31:28

Yeah, you liked Soul. Um, I mean it is this is such a only had worked with Moondog already in '92 when he lived in yeah, he lived in how was that?

Speaker 1 31:38

It was just uh we met, and then he said, like, oh he has a he he's doing this cannons, this compositions, and the musicians never got it right. So I said, like, yeah, why you you can because it's like kind of sequence music, we can do it with a computer. And then he said, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. So he came and we did like one composition, one one song, I would say, and uh it was just one melody line, so I had you just uh to which was in the sampler super easy. You do octave lower, uh like three octaves, and like a starting point, four bars each track, and then it was done in five minutes, and then press start. Yeah, and then he was sitting on a computer listening. Uh when the sequence was finished, he was like, Yeah. So we did a whole album.

Paul 32:31

Well, like so it went on from Matt to do an album with him.

Speaker 1 32:34

Yeah, the the Alpmas.

Paul 32:37

Yeah. I mean you you've but you've both had like this uh talk about Moondock. This uh I guess this is a good way to lead into Lee Scratch Perry, really, you know, working with these like iconoclastic kind of figures.

Setting Up The Perry Collaboration

Paul 32:48

I mean, firstly, so the new album is the last Lee Scratch Perry recording. How did it this? I mean, the recordings happened in 2019, my right am thinking.

Speaker 1 32:59

2009 late, yeah, and in winter 19.

Paul 33:02

Yeah, how did it initially come about?

Speaker 33:05

I mean, it was a couple of circumstances, mostly through Ellie Elena Pulou, who's a an old friend who we still know from Cologne Times. And she also likes she taught us a lot about new music, different music, as well as Tommy, DJ Lobo Tommy, um, who also introduced me to a lot of stuff I I hadn't known at the time. They collaborated as a as a group called the Zen Fascisten, and I helped them recall, I think a 7-inch and maybe something else. I don't know. Anyway, Ellie at some point was like, hey, are you do you want to recall with Lee Scratch Perry? I know a guy who thinks that could be a great idea and has some connection with Lee, and we were like, whatever, yes, but we didn't, we weren't like we didn't know incredible amounts about Lee Scratch Perry. It wasn't that we had waited for the opportunity to work with uh with him or something. Um we were pretty open and it it also didn't happen a few times, and so we thought maybe it was just a joke or maybe a a a wake idea until he showed up in Berlin and then yeah, went to the studio and and and started, and then the mood was right, everything was just right, it worked. Um could have also not worked, yeah.

Paul 34:22

So it took three days, so you had like a three-day session with him. I think one of the interesting things about um four days um what was the what was the process w in the studio with him? Was it about trying to quickly capture stuff down, or were how did it sort of work?

Speaker 1 34:42

Microphones everywhere. Yeah, we didn't know what to expect, we didn't know Lee personally, we didn't know his energy level and his how he would react on us and our stuff. So actually, we did the same thing we did with Marky Smith. So we had several spaces, we set up like a recording um option. So, and it was the same thing we did uh here in Berlin and which was really nice. So we could jump from one recording situation to another, yeah, which were mainly like pre-recorded ideas in the in a in our main studio, but in a recording studio we had like a session set up, and then in the end we all we we even had a microphone set up in the kitchen where we had like where we cooked and yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it was uh in the beginning Lee's wife, she communicated to us that he won't be available for so long, like three hours maximum, and afternoon, and not too early, and all this stuff. But this changed completely when we ran into each other, and we I think he felt comfortable in the situation we uh created, and he came at 10 o'clock in the morning and we stayed till two o'clock in the morning. Like it was uh I mean, it was uh his energy level was amazing. Like with this 84. Yeah, and uh just imagine to be 84 and be constantly talking and listening, and I mean if you know if you produce music, you know it's it can be super hard because you have to concentrate. And um it's usually a lot of information you have to work on, yeah, which which goes through your brain interface and but somehow there was so much uh space and and uh energy that it it didn't feel difficult or like uh tiring.

Paul 37:01

Yeah. Was he collaborating with you on the production as well? Or was he coming up with ideas for say, hey, this sound sounds really good here, or was he more just going with like a spontaneous approach?

Speaker 1 37:20

We prepared stuff, of course, like a rhythm, a little bit harmony, bass line, like more or less simple structures, and uh we played it to him, and he never I mean I think he liked it pretty much all. Like the only st uh song he didn't know that there was also one kind of um um uh dance hall dance hall? Dance hall, there there was a dance hall, dance hall track he didn't like so much, but with this stuff he didn't like so much, he just dropped. He just said like death in the death in the dance hall.

Speaker 38:05

But he did he did give like commands sometimes, not really like commanding, but he's uh he suggested like hey, um do you have more rhythm? Or Andy, can you play a rhythm guitar or stuff like this? More like what he was focused on, but he didn't touch the desk, he didn't get into the production. He was it was everything was through words and through yeah, words, spells, mysteries, um, laughing. He didn't he was fine with everything. A lot of the material also came through sessions, like people jamming or just listening to one thing that was running already, and then adding to that, and just feeling where the mood went. And I think he was more like a conceptualist than a producer at that point, like just figuring out what what is this, and then where where do I bend it, where do I direct it through the power of words basically, and also by attention, yeah. Um I think it was more like what he responded to and did not, and sometimes he was like, Do you have this or this? Or I don't know, we had a sketch and he was like, Can you give me that sketch? And we were like, Yeah, you can have everything you want. Like we were like, Well, okay, we'll send it to you, or you can take it home or tomorrow, whatever. It was sometimes really not quite clear what what the intentions were, but a lot happened like just because he was present during his time in Berlin.

Speaker 1 39:57

I think he was like more in the he was a he's a moment guy. He liked the moment, and actually it was not that important to listen to the result. I guess. It it was not important to him anymore. Because he he he reached like a stage, he doesn't have to present himself, I know he doesn't have to explain himself. He was just very free, like being himself. That's why he was misunderstood a lot from a lot of musicians from the outside. He's a clown or he's not what what what what does he represent? In a way, nobody knows him, but you if you're with him, you see you see this personal difference, and I think his heritage is something super important. And maybe because he that didn't continue it, because something in it he was frustrated with, so he wasn't respected as he should have been from music press and society. Yeah, but I think he didn't, it was totally he didn't care about it.

Speaker 41:03

Yeah, but I think also the idea in like dub and making versions, there's already this concept of like could be this way, but could equally this way, could also be actually this way. We we could also have this in, or not have the track track completely without this, or we could filter this and make it like totally um, you know, alter its whatever its sound, or alter the voice, or cut out like words and phrases from the lyrics. Doesn't like this kind of I wouldn't say ambiguity, but freedom I think was all the way through, and it just like became stronger, I guess, in his later years, where he expanded his practice into literature, words, poetry, collages, painting, um, photography, sculpture, assemblage. Um yeah, I mean it really we on I I honestly think he was more like a conceptual artist than you know that particular like a musician you would refer to a particular technique or instrument or process.

Paul 42:08

Or genre, yeah.

Speaker 1 42:10

Yeah, in that case I think space was more important for him than being successful or like present a certain style or be in charge for something.

Paul 42:20

You mean space in terms to the space to do all the space?

Speaker 1 42:24

Being in a space, being with people, yeah, and kind of not manipulate but be with the people and activate the space or activate feelings, brain, internal interpretation.

Microphones Everywhere And First Takes

Speaker 1 42:39

Something yeah, it's uh either spiritual but I don't it's uh something what he did from the f first moment and I think this was the reason why he burnt his studio because he saw like this the studio as a vehicle contains also expectations and leads gives space to people who want to get stuck in a certain style or like in a certain idea, and he I think he he wants to be in in movement all the time.

Paul 43:17

So you're talking about the black art studio that was that he famously burnt down, and I remember the the you know it's interesting what you were saying a couple of minutes ago about the kind of preconception of an artist like like uh Lee Scratch Perry, like the the time it was yeah, I remember in the 90s the sort of the dialogue around it was very much like a kind of a sort of naughty boy rock and roll thing without actually attempting to understand like the the idea of the artist, or at least the artist outside of like a Western art tradition, which is all about like sort of like notation and structure and or being like a like a naughty cheeky bad boy, you know, but still being able to do that. And I think that may be kind of confounded and confused. People at the time. And what was really interesting about what I love about listening to the album in it's something that I also heard on the internet so it might be incorrect, is that he didn't want to make a dub reco album. And that must have been really nice for you going in to feel that you didn't have to sort of, you know, the danger of making some kind of pastiche or something like that.

Speaker 1 44:25

I think he was totally um bewushed. Um relaxed or he relaxed about that. He he I mean, as he saw that we are either uh also us, we weren't interested in a certain style. Yeah. So I think he was totally good, good. Yeah, because maybe he also was frustrated about the image he has. Like some people say, like, ah, this is dub, this is Reiki. But this he didn't, I mean he didn't care. He wants to create, you know.

Speaker 45:00

And um, I mean there's always um attention and somehow a competition between do you represent or are you able to interpret? Like interpret. Are you an interpreter or are you a representative? Like, do you have a certain style that you stand for? Do you have a certain practice that always comes with you? Do people appreciate you for a certain sound, or do you have the freedom to suggest something that is probably unexpected? Or ideally, you can work in a space where there's not even any expectation. So that comes with like you being invited that people who have no expectation ask you, hey, we have an open space, right? And I think Lee was really that's also I think why why that's for sure a reason why it worked so well. He was very happy that we didn't impose anything onto him, yeah, and also we didn't represent anything, we were just open, and um I think this is what he also asked. So what what like I I think there was a moment where like what is it that you want to do? And we were like, hmm, yeah, whatever, we'll whatever. And and we were like, What what do you want to do? And he said, like, no reggae. And we were like, that's good, because we're not really actually good reggae.

Speaker 1 46:15

I remember when he when he came, he had like his uh his case, and then he had like one CD which was uh blues, a CD with blues recordings, like uh very early blues recordings, and he made us listen to it. So we found a C D player and then yeah, we listened to some blues stuff and like also he dropped some like the one thing he always sang like da-da-da-da-da. What was the lyrics? What's that like uh no? He he re he did one he always sang one line in between, which he was the last line was the last recording we did, but his voice was cracked.

Speaker 47:04

But was it like a Motown thing?

Speaker 1 47:05

No, it was like a blues scene, okay. But with his own words, I don't remember it. I would have have to look for it. But it was it was so touching because this stayed all the time in his mind, and it was the very last thing he we recorded, and his voice was totally tired. It was like uh so he gave his all his it was also it was it seemed like he kept he was dosing his energy.

Speaker 47:36

I think he was super good with timing. It was incredible his timing, like the energy timing he had, like how we spread the day, yeah, how it was clean now, we're done, and it wasn't about hours, you know, it was just like just like constant production. And we had several situations where we could record several scenes of microphones being set up and people having access to instruments and jamming, and we even had like a few field recording devices that we could like I don't know, walk around with or and so basically you could record anything all the time anywhere. Yeah, and I I I don't know, I would be tired after half a day like giving constantly giving, but that's another thing that he was really good at. It was not about representing or interpreting, it was also about like just like letting things go through, like being a medium.

Speaker 1 48:32

This is what he did all the time. This is what he's used to. That's why it doesn't cost him much energy.

Paul 48:40

Wow, yeah, I like that reminds me sometimes of like more of like an actor's approach as well, about like absorbing things from life and letting them come out, yeah, and like kind of uh like letting it uh uh flow through yourself, yeah, and then it's like an air refresher. Yeah, so nothing gets stuck. I love

Rock Curry And Surprise Musicians

Paul 49:05

that. One of the tracks, Rock Curry, um, is just when I listen to it, uh, I'm a big Can fan. And it to me, one of the things I loved about like so about the early Can albums was you know, you'd have the albums where it was just then, the albums of Damo Zuzuki, the albums with Michael Mooney, and you know, without wanting to label what you do, it to me it sounded like unearthing like an Eggy Bam Yessi track where Kan had made an album with Lee Scratch Perry as their vocalist. I mean, was what was was there like a bit of a vibe of that for you when you were making that or to be honest, we didn't have we didn't think about genres, but we thought like something faster would really make sense.

Speaker 49:45

So Andy had like recorded a few tracks with Andrea Belfi, and Andrea Belfi is like just like so good in playing minimalist drums dry and really on the spot, and he's the closest we know, like somebody plays to Yucky Levitzeitz kind of style, in a way.

Speaker 1 50:02

The style idea was present, but you know, it wasn't I it was just an uh like an idea to offer, and Lee jumped on it immediately. He's like, Oh yeah, wow, he he liked that idea because it's like even though it it's more like maybe uh crowd rock influenced, or it got some aesthetics of it, yeah. It also has this uh like there are these up-tempo reggae songs, also, no, like I mean there's yeah, you can't like Northern Soul, or like like um there was a spirit like this. There was like the blues spirit, and uh maybe like the crowd rock spirit, but it went so many different directions. Actually, this record is showing like in a way influences of our influences, also influence of Lee because it's like this carabine kind of aesthetics. Because luckily, there was like uh this guy, Regis Molina, who who is uh playing saxophone, he's from Cuba, and um he understood this music immediately, and he could he played amazing saxophone lines with the flutes and did doubling. We did like brass sections together within the shortest amount of time because it was just he was just dropping this out of his emotions and feeling. Amazing musician. Usually you need like uh hours to record this kind of brass stuff, but we did really in 20 minutes because he played it. I said, Oh, it's cool, of course it's cool, and then we he said, like, um open another line. He played like 20 brass stuff, print and then um uh Hillary uh he played trombone, he played with it. I saw like wow, this is actually I don't like saxophone, but this it was the style, this kind of raw African, not you know, this jazzy it was like it it seemed like it had the soul of like uh old recordings, like a grain, yeah. It it had the DNA of like a different type of brass, and it was and uh yeah, and this was another thing because uh the he just appeared because uh Dodo or drama invited him. He said, I know like somebody's really nice and so he came, he brought a saxophone and he was immediately in it, yeah, but without like that we planned, oh we need a brass section. No, he just came and then he took over this. I mean he had got the space and this in the music, and he took it and was perfect. It was like as if something was guiding the recordings, yeah.

Speaker 52:52

But I think when you when you work on whatever you do for a long time, or at least let's say reasonable amount of time, you learn a lot and you like listen to things or you read things or you go out and you watch shows, you watch concerts or exhibitions, or you meet people, it's like wow, you're so full with stuff. And I think a lot of people wait for the moment where they can somehow like contribute something, and mostly these moments don't happen for actually a lot of people, unfortunately. So you kind of you think, oh, I gotta, I I have to be better, maybe I have to rehearse more, or maybe I need more equipment, uh, maybe I need to do more jam sessions and blah. And what was really I think particular about these couple of days with Lee Scratch Perry was that people could just open up their Pandora's box of things they already knew, and they didn't have to think twice and they didn't have to debate or discuss or improve. They just opened it up and it just like came out like it was just flushing, flushing the scene.

Speaker 1 54:01

Yeah, yeah, one-to-one without expectation, without much self-expectation. Yeah, I mean it's like uh the straight way and uh without confusion and without ego. Yeah. Because the ego thing is also like the most disturbing thing in music, and uh yeah, that's why most of the recordings, I would say almost every recording we did was a first uh shut. What I would say take, first take recordings.

Paul 54:34

It's amazing. There's so many things you touched on there.

Why Waiting Kills Great Work

Paul 54:38

Um like for one what you were saying just now about like how so many people wait for things to happen. What I was wondering if you could just expand a little bit more on that, really, because I get a sense that like maybe you're not being I don't get this sense that you're sort of telling people don't bother, but it's more about like a kind of is it about seeing something or noticing something or kind of is there like a harm in in waiting and over preparing and thinking something's gonna be a time's gonna present itself?

Speaker 55:11

I think no matter what age you are or where you are in your whatever you want to call it, career or biography, you know, you can be young or you can be elder and experienced. People always, not always, but often people think something valuable has to happen or something has to be decided for things to be valuable. And I think what you have to do is just create a situation where you have to kind of jump into it, and when you really act intuitively and you just like go full challenge, you just oppose yourself to a situation, right? Like you create a situation where you're being challenged, you just have to go out there and do it, and your intuition is ruling because I think you intuition is like a great form of intelligence. Intelligence can be very rational and um it's kind of an organizing structure, and you see patterns and you actually also you assign and you you compare and you bring things into like relations, so you you create these packages. This belongs to here, this belongs to here, and then intelligence can also be really helpful in like trimming things down, so you have less less weight, you have less info because you condense things that are similar into packages. But intuition is something that works very differently, it's a mix of emotion and intelligence. It's things have to be really, really fast. And if you create these situations, you just confront yourself with you book yourself a show, or you you like just go out on the street and play, or you like um, I don't know, you just like pretend I'm ready and I can do this, or your band is ready to play, and you find a way to gig. What you learn is like you you learn in hyperspeed. And I think we've always been very good in just like jumping into these situations. The first ever show we played with Mouse on Mouse was when we already had done our record and we had not intended for it to be performed on stage. We thought it would just be a record, and a label would put it out, and then Tour Pure made us go on a stage, walk on a stage, and play. And the first show we ever played with in the in London at the garage, this was where our label was based, and we had never played with Dodo before, our drummer. And we we we kind of borrowed an engineer for that night. We didn't even have a drum kit. We played like we we borrowed bits and pieces, some drums from an old percussion set of mine, like drums from the band The Faith Healers. They gave us a drum kit.

Speaker 1 57:47

Not the drum kit, there was like it just uh Dodo had a conga, and uh we we learned a snare and a hi-head, so the drum set was like also very limited. And um Dodo also was not uh drummer, he was like playing guitar bass, he was like doing his songs and stuff.

Speaker 58:06

Yeah, but we were like, okay, we'll we'll do it, we'll just walk on station because it's mouse on mouse, like who can tell us what's right or wrong?

Speaker 1 58:12

And it was so intense, it was so much fun because it was really a burst. Well, we of course we we we uh were like rehearsing, but we there was just a few hours rehearsing.

Speaker 58:24

Yeah, and we didn't know how long things would last. So so so so maybe like the sequence beginning like the sequence of one song. We were just like for 15 minutes, we were just like working out the sequence live on stage, and people were like, Yeah, cool, that's that's great.

Speaker 1 58:38

They just do what they do, and there was this the guy, the engineer, sound engineer. We asked what kind of engineer you want. We said, like, ah, somebody who does dub, who does live dub. And this guy was amazing, he did like the echo thing of the hi-head, so he also was part of the band because he was yeah creating, he was adding stuff to the rhythms, but very well, like like in a very classic way.

Speaker 59:02

Which is also nice because I think as an artist, you sometimes have to just imagine something, even if it's not there, you have to pretend like you have to find a way to like for like formalize something or like just you know keep I don't know, just design something that doesn't exist, and and and and and that's what you what you aim towards. And coming back to your question, I think when people wait and try to improve and get better and rehearse and like like you know, until they're ready, you are never ready if you go that way because we wouldn't be ready at all. We we're really lousy musicians, we're not like nobody would book us for a recording, maybe because they want a particular signature or something, you know. But like I mean, we're not it's it's into it's intuition, maybe, yeah, whatever. But just like being bold in a way, to to just try it and go for it. And I can see it a lot with the students that I work with that um we just set up a geek or we find a date where something has to happen, and some of them are like, yeah, let's go, you know, like pirates, and others are like, Oh, but they have a lot of questions. I cannot answer those questions because I have no idea what the gig is like or what the situation would be like. And they're like, um, what the fuck? Like, what is this? What is what is Jan taking us into? Like, what is he what will this be? And I mean, you just have to trust me. Like, it always worked out for me that way. So, so please just like tag along and something will come out of it. And if we made mistakes, then we'll learn from them. And if things go well, we'll like feed off the enthusiasm and plan the next uh the next burglary.

Paul 1:00:52

The next burglary. Yeah, I I think too much can uh delay people when they're second guessing, like they they have an idea, maybe too much of an I I know what you're saying about like having an idea of what you want to do, but I think sometimes there's another extent to that where people have too much of a fixed idea of how like they want their voice to be like Shardet, you know, when it's not that's four years away, you know, and just do it now because it's gonna sound different and new rather than wait for this never achievement.

Speaker 1:01:26

That's another interesting aspect because if you have um like if again when you work with younger people and you get this question, so what is it that makes an artist, or what is it that makes a good work of art? It's not that you are a particular artist, you just have to be bold enough to go out and try something, or you have to like be curious enough to really like stick your head into that hole and then kind of dig a little deeper and see what like what just like be open for what happens. And it's not that just it's it's not a particular craft. You can if you know you need tools or you need certain expertise, you can still learn the craft, but the first thing is this curiosity or that enthusiasm or just like being connected with something and and and being able to click with something, and that is a totally different quality than what in in the Western world we often associate with artistic talent or being artistic. You think you have to have a certain skill, a certain way to do this or that or that. It's because we divide the arts into music, and then within music you have composition and you have the the interpreter, the musicians, and then you have like those who I don't know, record or produce, or I don't know, there's like all these formats, and everything's kind of like a profession. But I would say this is not really it's not, I don't know, it's just not our way, and it's not really something I can relate to. It's more like are you open for a dialogue with the world, basically? Yeah, and of course you can't have a dialogue with the whole world, but you can have dialogues with like let's say the edge of that wall, and maybe a like that car that comes by, and maybe you can have a dialogue with like a couple of birds on that roof, or you can have a dialogue with a certain idea that kind of comes out of like a certain constellation in an everyday situation, and you're like, mmm, something about that like makes me think, and then you start you're in this dialogue, and that's what you follow, what you follow through

Spatial No Problem As A Collage

Speaker 1:03:36

with. So I don't know, it's kind of drifted off from how those sessions with Lee were, but I think that is really what though this whole album is about. It's it's just a dialogue of like people meeting and situation, that's why it's called spatial no problem. It's like a coexistence of ideas and and and concepts, and um, it's a collage as well. It's a collage in time, it's a collage in space, it's a collage in in brains, you know, like like perspectives on what is actually going on, and and they coexist. We have no idea of any what like any of these people on the record actually really think about what's going on there. And nobody would want to really know about that. I don't even know if like the what I mean. I think I have a guess of how Andy hears it because we spend a lot of time together. Yeah, and especially when you listen to things together, I think you can get pretty close to how somebody else kind of hears something. Just sitting there next to somebody else listening to something, which I think is I don't know, I don't have that experience with looking at things. Like like sitting next to somebody in a museum looking at a picture, I don't think I have any clue of what that person looks at or gets from that painting. Whereas like when I sit next to somebody listening to sound or music and I I give I I give it some time, I feel like I'm I'm pretty I can connect very very closely actually. Yeah, yeah. That's true.

Speaker 1 1:05:05

It's a phenomenon.

Paul 1:05:07

It is. I think that's a really good way to end the interview, actually.

Speaker 1 1:05:11

You're welcome. Ah, cool. Yeah, you're hungry.

Speaker 1:05:15

Hungry? Hungry?

Paul 1:05:18

Okay, so that was me, Paul Hamford, talking with Jan and Andy, aka Mouse on Mars. And we had that conversation on July the 7th, 2026. I found them thoroughly charming company, and I'm sure you did too listening to that. So thank you, Jan and Andy, for sharing your time and thoughts with me there. The album, Lee Scratch Perry and Mouse on Mars, the album called Spatial, No Problem, is out now and it's on the rather lovely, always been lovely, lovely for years and years and years, Domino Records. Thank you so much for listening, people. I hope whatever you're doing, you're having a really lovely one today. Um, the theme music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of Lost and Sound is by Tom Giddens. And if you like the show and you haven't already, please do give it a subscribe. Uh if you've got like five minutes to spare, give the show a rating, a review on the platform of your choice. It already helps. And if you want to follow me on Instagram, my name is Paul Hanford on Instagram. And if you want to follow the Substack, uh, there's stuff going down on that now. Uh, head on over to Lost and Sound at Substack. All right then, that's it. Thanks so much for listening. And yeah, thanks for being patient about this episode coming out a little bit later than usual. We'll be back with another episode in September. Okay, chat to you soon.

Final Thoughts And Where To Follow

Paul 1:06:41

Bye.