{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.36,"endTime":2.076,"body":"- So I want to start this lecture"},{"startTime":2.076,"endTime":6.24,"body":"by letting the women who"},{"startTime":2.076,"endTime":6.24,"body":"seek fertility treatment"},{"startTime":6.24,"endTime":9.06,"body":"like egg freezing, speak for themselves."},{"startTime":9.06,"endTime":10.78,"body":"So one says children are wonderful,"},{"startTime":10.78,"endTime":12.7,"body":"but they can also stress you financially,"},{"startTime":12.7,"endTime":14.1,"body":"physically, and emotionally."},{"startTime":15.085,"endTime":15.918,"body":"I wanted to be in a rock solid marriage"},{"startTime":15.918,"endTime":17.41,"body":"with a track record before I had kids."},{"startTime":17.41,"endTime":19.3,"body":"And I didn't want that"},{"startTime":17.41,"endTime":19.3,"body":"process to be strained"},{"startTime":19.3,"endTime":22.023,"body":"by some deadline that"},{"startTime":19.3,"endTime":22.023,"body":"could really identify."},{"startTime":23.74,"endTime":25.95,"body":"I was starting to feel that"},{"startTime":23.74,"endTime":25.95,"body":"my desire to have children"},{"startTime":25.95,"endTime":28.01,"body":"was putting pressure on"},{"startTime":25.95,"endTime":28.01,"body":"my current relationship,"},{"startTime":28.01,"endTime":30.12,"body":"deciding to freeze my eggs"},{"startTime":30.12,"endTime":31.65,"body":"helped me to separate the issues."},{"startTime":31.65,"endTime":32.74,"body":"Yes, I want to have children."},{"startTime":32.74,"endTime":33.95,"body":"Yes, I'm in a relationship,"},{"startTime":33.95,"endTime":35.69,"body":"but my desire to have"},{"startTime":33.95,"endTime":35.69,"body":"children shouldn't cloud"},{"startTime":35.69,"endTime":37.34,"body":"whether we should be"},{"startTime":35.69,"endTime":37.34,"body":"having children together,"},{"startTime":37.34,"endTime":39.53,"body":"I don't want to have children until I feel"},{"startTime":39.53,"endTime":41.913,"body":"emotionally and financially prepared."},{"startTime":43.38,"endTime":45.71,"body":"I really like this one,"},{"startTime":43.38,"endTime":45.71,"body":"the biological clock,"},{"startTime":45.71,"endTime":48.29,"body":"a worn metaphor, but spot on accurate"},{"startTime":48.29,"endTime":50.27,"body":"because sometimes it ticks so loudly."},{"startTime":50.27,"endTime":52.3,"body":"It makes us stay up all night"},{"startTime":52.3,"endTime":54.45,"body":"furiously Googling fertility options,"},{"startTime":54.45,"endTime":56.228,"body":"who hasn't been there, I've been there."},{"startTime":56.228,"endTime":60.94,"body":"I have seen this pressure push people"},{"startTime":60.94,"endTime":62.24,"body":"into lack luster marriages"},{"startTime":63.101,"endTime":64.245,"body":"or fret their lovely,"},{"startTime":64.245,"endTime":67.06,"body":"confident selves into"},{"startTime":64.245,"endTime":67.06,"body":"fearful, frenzied heaps."},{"startTime":67.06,"endTime":68.69,"body":"So it's a ticking clock."},{"startTime":68.69,"endTime":72.59,"body":"And that I think is an idea"},{"startTime":68.69,"endTime":72.59,"body":"that we see throughout the way"},{"startTime":72.59,"endTime":74.94,"body":"the press and the media and social media"},{"startTime":74.94,"endTime":79.68,"body":"presents women and"},{"startTime":74.94,"endTime":79.68,"body":"their fertility journey."},{"startTime":79.68,"endTime":82.03,"body":"So we can immediately"},{"startTime":79.68,"endTime":82.03,"body":"see why women might want"},{"startTime":82.03,"endTime":82.863,"body":"to freeze their eggs."},{"startTime":82.863,"endTime":84.86,"body":"And that's what I'm going"},{"startTime":82.863,"endTime":84.86,"body":"to talk to you about today."},{"startTime":84.86,"endTime":87.456,"body":"Women have a range of reasons"},{"startTime":84.86,"endTime":87.456,"body":"why they'd freeze their eggs."},{"startTime":87.456,"endTime":89.003,"body":"They're medical,"},{"startTime":89.003,"endTime":91.23,"body":"as well as people who"},{"startTime":89.003,"endTime":91.23,"body":"might be transitioning"},{"startTime":91.23,"endTime":93.08,"body":"and they might want to"},{"startTime":91.23,"endTime":93.08,"body":"preserve their fertility,"},{"startTime":93.08,"endTime":95.15,"body":"people who are facing"},{"startTime":93.08,"endTime":95.15,"body":"cancer treatments and so on."},{"startTime":95.15,"endTime":97.85,"body":"Good examples of people who"},{"startTime":95.15,"endTime":97.85,"body":"want to freeze their eggs,"},{"startTime":97.85,"endTime":99.52,"body":"but I'm going to talk to"},{"startTime":97.85,"endTime":99.52,"body":"you about what we call"},{"startTime":99.52,"endTime":101.66,"body":"elective or social egg freezing."},{"startTime":101.66,"endTime":103.74,"body":"So people who are freezing their eggs,"},{"startTime":103.74,"endTime":105.52,"body":"not because they have a medical condition"},{"startTime":105.52,"endTime":106.78,"body":"and they need to preserve their fertility,"},{"startTime":106.78,"endTime":108.8,"body":"but because they want to make sure"},{"startTime":108.8,"endTime":111.629,"body":"that if they put"},{"startTime":108.8,"endTime":111.629,"body":"motherhood off a bit later,"},{"startTime":111.629,"endTime":114.02,"body":"that they don't lose the"},{"startTime":111.629,"endTime":114.02,"body":"ability to have children."},{"startTime":114.02,"endTime":114.88,"body":"Now the law in this area"},{"startTime":114.88,"endTime":117.13,"body":"isn't really particularly problematic."},{"startTime":117.13,"endTime":118.53,"body":"But what I want to talk to you about"},{"startTime":118.53,"endTime":119.363,"body":"is some of the ethical"},{"startTime":119.363,"endTime":120.94,"body":"questions and certainly the practice"},{"startTime":120.94,"endTime":122.89,"body":"around it and why women do this."},{"startTime":122.89,"endTime":124.411,"body":"And within that,"},{"startTime":124.411,"endTime":126.05,"body":"I will bring up a couple"},{"startTime":124.411,"endTime":126.05,"body":"of policy questions."},{"startTime":126.05,"endTime":128.1,"body":"Should we fund it to"},{"startTime":126.05,"endTime":128.1,"body":"facilitate more choice?"},{"startTime":128.1,"endTime":130.76,"body":"We might touch on that,"},{"startTime":128.1,"endTime":130.76,"body":"and I'm going to leave you"},{"startTime":130.76,"endTime":131.83,"body":"with the trickiest question."},{"startTime":131.83,"endTime":133.16,"body":"So you can ask me about that at the end,"},{"startTime":133.16,"endTime":135.49,"body":"but I'll get to that when I get to it."},{"startTime":135.49,"endTime":137.09,"body":"But mostly what I want"},{"startTime":135.49,"endTime":137.09,"body":"to talk to you about"},{"startTime":137.09,"endTime":139.49,"body":"is the complexities"},{"startTime":137.09,"endTime":139.49,"body":"about it as a practice."},{"startTime":139.49,"endTime":142.88,"body":"And I really want to try to"},{"startTime":139.49,"endTime":142.88,"body":"redress the frequent tendency"},{"startTime":142.88,"endTime":146.84,"body":"and discussions of about"},{"startTime":142.88,"endTime":146.84,"body":"this around the assumptions"},{"startTime":146.84,"endTime":148.69,"body":"that people make about women's views"},{"startTime":148.69,"endTime":150.34,"body":"and their decision making capacity."},{"startTime":150.34,"endTime":152.88,"body":"So I want to interrogate"},{"startTime":150.34,"endTime":152.88,"body":"some of those assumptions"},{"startTime":152.88,"endTime":155.67,"body":"and I want to do this by showing you"},{"startTime":155.67,"endTime":158.95,"body":"why women choose to put off childbearing"},{"startTime":158.95,"endTime":160.14,"body":"and the motivations they have"},{"startTime":160.14,"endTime":162.3,"body":"and give you some evidence"},{"startTime":160.14,"endTime":162.3,"body":"to show that actually,"},{"startTime":162.3,"endTime":163.133,"body":"a lot of the time"},{"startTime":163.133,"endTime":164.83,"body":"they've got really good"},{"startTime":163.133,"endTime":164.83,"body":"reason is for doing this."},{"startTime":164.83,"endTime":167.0,"body":"So what I want to offer"},{"startTime":164.83,"endTime":167.0,"body":"from this is a more nuanced"},{"startTime":167.0,"endTime":169.58,"body":"and accurate picture of women's situation"},{"startTime":169.58,"endTime":172.57,"body":"and the reasons why they do as they do."},{"startTime":172.57,"endTime":174.82,"body":"So what is egg freezing"},{"startTime":172.57,"endTime":174.82,"body":"and how successful is it?"},{"startTime":174.82,"endTime":177.0,"body":"And well, until the early 2000s,"},{"startTime":177.0,"endTime":178.81,"body":"the technique for freezing eggs"},{"startTime":178.81,"endTime":180.49,"body":"was a slow freezing technique."},{"startTime":180.49,"endTime":182.99,"body":"And the problem with that"},{"startTime":180.49,"endTime":182.99,"body":"was it wasn't very effective"},{"startTime":182.99,"endTime":185.963,"body":"at preserving eggs, over very large cells."},{"startTime":185.963,"endTime":186.796,"body":"They have a lot of liquid in them."},{"startTime":186.796,"endTime":188.11,"body":"And so they form crystals."},{"startTime":188.11,"endTime":190.57,"body":"And in the late nineties"},{"startTime":188.11,"endTime":190.57,"body":"and early two thousands,"},{"startTime":190.57,"endTime":192.15,"body":"a technique called vitrification."},{"startTime":192.15,"endTime":195.37,"body":"So flash freezing or fast"},{"startTime":192.15,"endTime":195.37,"body":"freezing became available"},{"startTime":195.37,"endTime":197.58,"body":"and it produced much better results."},{"startTime":197.58,"endTime":199.62,"body":"So vitrification enables mature over"},{"startTime":199.62,"endTime":201.92,"body":"to be preserved once they're harvested."},{"startTime":201.92,"endTime":204.29,"body":"And it has very strong,"},{"startTime":204.29,"endTime":207.9,"body":"relative to previous techniques"},{"startTime":204.29,"endTime":207.9,"body":"is much, much better."},{"startTime":207.9,"endTime":212.43,"body":"So since then, that's why you can see"},{"startTime":212.43,"endTime":213.51,"body":"when we look at these stats,"},{"startTime":213.51,"endTime":214.66,"body":"I'm sorry to give you lots of stats."},{"startTime":214.66,"endTime":218.09,"body":"What you see really"},{"startTime":214.66,"endTime":218.09,"body":"clearly is since that time,"},{"startTime":218.09,"endTime":222.06,"body":"this big jump, particularly"},{"startTime":218.09,"endTime":222.06,"body":"from 2010 through to 2019,"},{"startTime":222.06,"endTime":224.01,"body":"a big jump in egg freezing cycle."},{"startTime":224.01,"endTime":226.43,"body":"So a tenfold increase in the last decade"},{"startTime":227.601,"endTime":229.81,"body":"and of these, about a"},{"startTime":227.601,"endTime":229.81,"body":"third were women under 35,"},{"startTime":229.81,"endTime":233.29,"body":"a third were women aged 35 and over,"},{"startTime":233.29,"endTime":237.9,"body":"and then decreasingly into"},{"startTime":233.29,"endTime":237.9,"body":"women who aged 45 to 50"},{"startTime":237.9,"endTime":239.907,"body":"were freezing their eggs."},{"startTime":239.907,"endTime":241.74,"body":"So you still see women even really late"},{"startTime":241.74,"endTime":244.403,"body":"into their fertility window"},{"startTime":241.74,"endTime":244.403,"body":"are freezing their eggs."},{"startTime":245.25,"endTime":247.73,"body":"Of those, see a similar pattern"},{"startTime":247.73,"endTime":249.4,"body":"that increasingly women are thawing"},{"startTime":249.4,"endTime":251.517,"body":"their eggs and using them."},{"startTime":251.517,"endTime":252.744,"body":"So again, a tenfold increase is 2010."},{"startTime":252.744,"endTime":256.48,"body":"So clearly egg freezing is on the rise."},{"startTime":256.48,"endTime":258.21,"body":"And that's very clear"},{"startTime":256.48,"endTime":258.21,"body":"from the media interest."},{"startTime":258.21,"endTime":261.32,"body":"We hear about it all the time,"},{"startTime":258.21,"endTime":261.32,"body":"but what sorts of do we hear?"},{"startTime":261.32,"endTime":263.65,"body":"Well, we have lots of"},{"startTime":261.32,"endTime":263.65,"body":"articles in the media about,"},{"startTime":263.65,"endTime":267.24,"body":"should I freeze my, classic"},{"startTime":263.65,"endTime":267.24,"body":"article in women's magazines"},{"startTime":267.24,"endTime":269.49,"body":"in particular, should I freeze,"},{"startTime":269.49,"endTime":271.67,"body":"but you'll also see a lot of headlines"},{"startTime":271.67,"endTime":274.39,"body":"talking about women are"},{"startTime":271.67,"endTime":274.39,"body":"going to be disappointed."},{"startTime":274.39,"endTime":276.03,"body":"They need to get ready for anxiety."},{"startTime":276.03,"endTime":277.6,"body":"They need to get ready for disappointment,"},{"startTime":277.6,"endTime":280.09,"body":"or it's an expensive lottery ticket"},{"startTime":280.09,"endTime":283.033,"body":"that women hope it works,"},{"startTime":280.09,"endTime":283.033,"body":"but it probably won't,"},{"startTime":284.08,"endTime":286.39,"body":"or that women are using it as a life hack"},{"startTime":286.39,"endTime":287.41,"body":"for ambitious women."},{"startTime":287.41,"endTime":289.65,"body":"And I think that's"},{"startTime":287.41,"endTime":289.65,"body":"slightly pejorative tone"},{"startTime":289.65,"endTime":293.01,"body":"sometimes in the media there."},{"startTime":293.01,"endTime":294.72,"body":"And in particular, you'll see sometimes"},{"startTime":294.72,"endTime":296.32,"body":"these comments saying,"},{"startTime":294.72,"endTime":296.32,"body":"egg freezing is indirectly"},{"startTime":296.32,"endTime":298.782,"body":"encouraging women to have children"},{"startTime":298.782,"endTime":299.78,"body":"at an advanced age,"},{"startTime":299.78,"endTime":300.86,"body":"and that carries with an increased risks."},{"startTime":300.86,"endTime":303.87,"body":"So there's a lots of warning"},{"startTime":300.86,"endTime":303.87,"body":"that this might go poorly."},{"startTime":303.87,"endTime":306.01,"body":"And that's the background against"},{"startTime":306.01,"endTime":307.61,"body":"which I want to look"},{"startTime":306.01,"endTime":307.61,"body":"at women's motivations"},{"startTime":307.61,"endTime":309.393,"body":"and how women make their decisions,"},{"startTime":310.35,"endTime":312.84,"body":"and this idea of false hope."},{"startTime":312.84,"endTime":315.83,"body":"So we see that a lot,"},{"startTime":312.84,"endTime":315.83,"body":"this idea that it will"},{"startTime":315.83,"endTime":318.64,"body":"give women not hope, but false hope."},{"startTime":318.64,"endTime":320.91,"body":"And later on in this lecture,"},{"startTime":318.64,"endTime":320.91,"body":"I want to really unpack"},{"startTime":320.91,"endTime":323.12,"body":"what it might mean and to have false hope"},{"startTime":323.98,"endTime":326.02,"body":"when we're suggesting, when"},{"startTime":323.98,"endTime":326.02,"body":"we see things suggesting"},{"startTime":326.02,"endTime":329.25,"body":"that it's expensive and"},{"startTime":326.02,"endTime":329.25,"body":"it won't really work."},{"startTime":329.25,"endTime":330.39,"body":"So before we can go any further,"},{"startTime":330.39,"endTime":332.96,"body":"we want to look at how"},{"startTime":330.39,"endTime":332.96,"body":"successful it can be."},{"startTime":332.96,"endTime":336.483,"body":"Now success rates are rising,"},{"startTime":337.53,"endTime":339.117,"body":"but we don't have lots of data."},{"startTime":339.117,"endTime":340.53,"body":"And part of the reason for that"},{"startTime":340.53,"endTime":342.95,"body":"is we don't have a lot of data about women"},{"startTime":342.95,"endTime":344.85,"body":"who have thaw their eggs and frozen them"},{"startTime":344.85,"endTime":347.1,"body":"and used them, it's a small data set."},{"startTime":347.1,"endTime":350.61,"body":"So it's important not to"},{"startTime":347.1,"endTime":350.61,"body":"extrapolate too much from it."},{"startTime":350.61,"endTime":353.19,"body":"So the Royal College of"},{"startTime":350.61,"endTime":353.19,"body":"Obstetrics and Gynecology says,"},{"startTime":353.19,"endTime":355.94,"body":"that in a clinic that's"},{"startTime":353.19,"endTime":355.94,"body":"proficient in vitrification,"},{"startTime":355.94,"endTime":360.25,"body":"a frozen egg has about the"},{"startTime":355.94,"endTime":360.25,"body":"same developmental potential"},{"startTime":360.25,"endTime":363.15,"body":"as a fresh egg because what's happening"},{"startTime":363.15,"endTime":366.97,"body":"is you're stopping age"},{"startTime":363.15,"endTime":366.97,"body":"related decline in the egg."},{"startTime":366.97,"endTime":369.07,"body":"So they're saying that the"},{"startTime":366.97,"endTime":369.07,"body":"clinical pregnancy rates"},{"startTime":369.07,"endTime":370.59,"body":"reported in randomized series"},{"startTime":370.59,"endTime":374.06,"body":"using warmed eggs in vitro"},{"startTime":370.59,"endTime":374.06,"body":"are pretty much equivalent"},{"startTime":374.06,"endTime":377.27,"body":"to IVF fresh treatment,"},{"startTime":374.06,"endTime":377.27,"body":"so that it sounds like"},{"startTime":377.27,"endTime":378.52,"body":"it should be pretty good,"},{"startTime":378.52,"endTime":380.68,"body":"but they go on to explain"},{"startTime":378.52,"endTime":380.68,"body":"really importantly,"},{"startTime":380.68,"endTime":383.94,"body":"that actually a lot of this"},{"startTime":380.68,"endTime":383.94,"body":"data is from egg donors"},{"startTime":383.94,"endTime":386.444,"body":"and those eggs have"},{"startTime":383.94,"endTime":386.444,"body":"been taken at the point"},{"startTime":386.444,"endTime":388.48,"body":"where they have optimum"},{"startTime":386.444,"endTime":388.48,"body":"fertility and they're younger."},{"startTime":388.48,"endTime":391.382,"body":"So we can't easily extrapolate"},{"startTime":388.48,"endTime":391.382,"body":"from that, and simply say,"},{"startTime":391.382,"endTime":394.68,"body":"it's the same because"},{"startTime":391.382,"endTime":394.68,"body":"actually those donors"},{"startTime":394.68,"endTime":397.37,"body":"are often a lot younger"},{"startTime":394.68,"endTime":397.37,"body":"than the recipients of them."},{"startTime":397.37,"endTime":398.86,"body":"It also, we need to take account"},{"startTime":398.86,"endTime":400.94,"body":"that some clinics are"},{"startTime":398.86,"endTime":400.94,"body":"better at this than others."},{"startTime":400.94,"endTime":403.73,"body":"And so clinics will"},{"startTime":400.94,"endTime":403.73,"body":"have better experience,"},{"startTime":403.73,"endTime":404.71,"body":"longer experience."},{"startTime":404.71,"endTime":406.41,"body":"And so therefore success rates"},{"startTime":406.41,"endTime":408.17,"body":"can't easily be extrapolated across."},{"startTime":408.17,"endTime":410.62,"body":"So we need to be really"},{"startTime":408.17,"endTime":410.62,"body":"careful with what we think"},{"startTime":410.62,"endTime":412.693,"body":"about the data that there is out there."},{"startTime":413.813,"endTime":416.82,"body":"The HFEA, the Human Fertilization"},{"startTime":413.813,"endTime":416.82,"body":"Embryology Authority"},{"startTime":416.82,"endTime":419.81,"body":"produce some on success rates as well."},{"startTime":419.81,"endTime":422.72,"body":"The best that it could,"},{"startTime":419.81,"endTime":422.72,"body":"that success rate data"},{"startTime":422.72,"endTime":424.5,"body":"isn't very granular, unfortunately."},{"startTime":424.5,"endTime":428.47,"body":"But what they did was they"},{"startTime":424.5,"endTime":428.47,"body":"looked at data from 2010 to 2016"},{"startTime":428.47,"endTime":430.31,"body":"and they said the average success rate"},{"startTime":430.31,"endTime":433.803,"body":"using thawed, frozen eggs was 18%."},{"startTime":434.89,"endTime":436.31,"body":"So what does that mean?"},{"startTime":436.31,"endTime":438.41,"body":"Well, one thing it means"},{"startTime":436.31,"endTime":438.41,"body":"is that most of the time"},{"startTime":438.41,"endTime":441.43,"body":"it didn't work, but it also means"},{"startTime":441.43,"endTime":444.64,"body":"that they're taking data"},{"startTime":441.43,"endTime":444.64,"body":"and extrapolating across."},{"startTime":444.64,"endTime":447.83,"body":"So one of the key things that"},{"startTime":444.64,"endTime":447.83,"body":"we're going to see however,"},{"startTime":447.83,"endTime":449.14,"body":"is that the age of the egg"},{"startTime":449.14,"endTime":451.48,"body":"is really crucial to your success in IVF."},{"startTime":451.48,"endTime":454.86,"body":"So having a success rate of"},{"startTime":451.48,"endTime":454.86,"body":"18% across the whole body"},{"startTime":454.86,"endTime":457.29,"body":"of data doesn't actually tell you much,"},{"startTime":457.29,"endTime":460.72,"body":"but it tells you something,"},{"startTime":457.29,"endTime":460.72,"body":"that it isn't not going to work,"},{"startTime":460.72,"endTime":463.16,"body":"but his success rates aren't high."},{"startTime":463.16,"endTime":466.95,"body":"So the key thing to understand"},{"startTime":463.16,"endTime":466.95,"body":"about this is that the point"},{"startTime":466.95,"endTime":470.41,"body":"at which an egg is frozen"},{"startTime":466.95,"endTime":470.41,"body":"determines in large part,"},{"startTime":470.41,"endTime":472.22,"body":"the chance of success."},{"startTime":472.22,"endTime":474.753,"body":"So the Human Fertilization"},{"startTime":472.22,"endTime":474.753,"body":"Embryology Authority"},{"startTime":474.753,"endTime":477.239,"body":"confirms this and they say"},{"startTime":474.753,"endTime":477.239,"body":"when egg freezing takes place,"},{"startTime":477.239,"endTime":478.072,"body":"it freezes the quality of the egg"},{"startTime":478.072,"endTime":480.18,"body":"at that point in time of a woman life."},{"startTime":480.18,"endTime":482.51,"body":"This means that the age"},{"startTime":480.18,"endTime":482.51,"body":"at which a woman freezes"},{"startTime":482.51,"endTime":484.32,"body":"her eggs is really important."},{"startTime":484.32,"endTime":486.977,"body":"Our data show there's a"},{"startTime":484.32,"endTime":486.977,"body":"pattern in success rates"},{"startTime":486.977,"endTime":488.76,"body":"for women who use their"},{"startTime":486.977,"endTime":488.76,"body":"frozen eggs in treatment,"},{"startTime":488.76,"endTime":491.77,"body":"the success rate decreases"},{"startTime":488.76,"endTime":491.77,"body":"with the increasing age"},{"startTime":491.77,"endTime":493.95,"body":"of the woman when the eggs were frozen."},{"startTime":493.95,"endTime":495.35,"body":"And they say the highest success rates"},{"startTime":495.35,"endTime":498.24,"body":"that they could discern"},{"startTime":495.35,"endTime":498.24,"body":"were for women age 35"},{"startTime":498.24,"endTime":500.94,"body":"and younger when they froze their eggs."},{"startTime":500.94,"endTime":504.4,"body":"So that's partly informing the"},{"startTime":500.94,"endTime":504.4,"body":"kinds of warnings that we see"},{"startTime":504.4,"endTime":506.75,"body":"but even that isn't the full picture."},{"startTime":506.75,"endTime":507.97,"body":"We have some other data,"},{"startTime":507.97,"endTime":510.01,"body":"there are clinics that"},{"startTime":507.97,"endTime":510.01,"body":"produce their own data."},{"startTime":510.01,"endTime":512.187,"body":"So the London Egg Bank produces data."},{"startTime":512.187,"endTime":514.75,"body":"And it says, well for women below 38 years"},{"startTime":514.75,"endTime":518.68,"body":"at time of freezing, they"},{"startTime":514.75,"endTime":518.68,"body":"had about a 45 success rate"},{"startTime":518.68,"endTime":520.06,"body":"in terms of using the eggs."},{"startTime":520.06,"endTime":524.52,"body":"Whereas after that age,"},{"startTime":520.06,"endTime":524.52,"body":"it dropped to about 22%."},{"startTime":524.52,"endTime":525.91,"body":"Another way to think about the data"},{"startTime":525.91,"endTime":527.48,"body":"we have about success rates."},{"startTime":527.48,"endTime":529.26,"body":"And there's lots of this on clinic sites"},{"startTime":529.26,"endTime":531.09,"body":"is they'll say things like, well,"},{"startTime":531.09,"endTime":532.61,"body":"you'll need this many eggs"},{"startTime":532.61,"endTime":535.7,"body":"to produce this kind of chance of success."},{"startTime":535.7,"endTime":536.96,"body":"So the London Egg Bank says, well,"},{"startTime":536.96,"endTime":539.38,"body":"if you're under 35 years of age,"},{"startTime":539.38,"endTime":540.96,"body":"you'll need to freeze 15 eggs"},{"startTime":540.96,"endTime":544.34,"body":"to have an 85% chance"},{"startTime":540.96,"endTime":544.34,"body":"of producing one child."},{"startTime":544.34,"endTime":546.69,"body":"Now, again, that's still just a database"},{"startTime":546.69,"endTime":549.13,"body":"on previous success rates and so on."},{"startTime":549.13,"endTime":550.1,"body":"And then they'll go on."},{"startTime":550.1,"endTime":552.19,"body":"They go on to say that if"},{"startTime":550.1,"endTime":552.19,"body":"you're between 40 and 42"},{"startTime":552.19,"endTime":555.27,"body":"when you freeze your"},{"startTime":552.19,"endTime":555.27,"body":"egg, you'll need 30 eggs"},{"startTime":555.27,"endTime":557.76,"body":"to have a 50% chance of having a child."},{"startTime":557.76,"endTime":560.86,"body":"So none of this is a"},{"startTime":557.76,"endTime":560.86,"body":"guarantee in any sense."},{"startTime":560.86,"endTime":563.0,"body":"So they're trying to give"},{"startTime":560.86,"endTime":563.0,"body":"you a sense of this idea"},{"startTime":563.0,"endTime":565.5,"body":"that as you age, your eggs age with you"},{"startTime":565.5,"endTime":567.64,"body":"and the chances of successfully"},{"startTime":565.5,"endTime":567.64,"body":"conceiving a pregnancy"},{"startTime":567.64,"endTime":569.78,"body":"with them decreases."},{"startTime":569.78,"endTime":571.73,"body":"Now the thing to point out"},{"startTime":569.78,"endTime":571.73,"body":"about that data as well"},{"startTime":571.73,"endTime":573.01,"body":"is that they don't put there,"},{"startTime":573.01,"endTime":575.05,"body":"but they do put it"},{"startTime":573.01,"endTime":575.05,"body":"elsewhere is that it becomes"},{"startTime":575.05,"endTime":576.9,"body":"progressively more"},{"startTime":575.05,"endTime":576.9,"body":"difficult to produce eggs"},{"startTime":576.9,"endTime":577.83,"body":"as you age as well."},{"startTime":577.83,"endTime":580.19,"body":"So the idea that you"},{"startTime":577.83,"endTime":580.19,"body":"would simply freeze more,"},{"startTime":580.19,"endTime":581.43,"body":"we'll come to that in a moment,"},{"startTime":581.43,"endTime":582.66,"body":"but it isn't as simple as just, well,"},{"startTime":582.66,"endTime":585.24,"body":"I'll just freeze lots and lots of eggs,"},{"startTime":585.24,"endTime":587.583,"body":"because of course that"},{"startTime":585.24,"endTime":587.583,"body":"becomes more difficult."},{"startTime":588.73,"endTime":591.22,"body":"The other dimension I"},{"startTime":588.73,"endTime":591.22,"body":"want to explain to you"},{"startTime":591.22,"endTime":593.63,"body":"before we go any further is the cost."},{"startTime":593.63,"endTime":595.62,"body":"Because one of the things"},{"startTime":593.63,"endTime":595.62,"body":"I'm really concerned about"},{"startTime":595.62,"endTime":598.44,"body":"is that women have the"},{"startTime":595.62,"endTime":598.44,"body":"right kind of information"},{"startTime":598.44,"endTime":603.31,"body":"so they can make an informed"},{"startTime":598.44,"endTime":603.31,"body":"and well grounded choice."},{"startTime":603.31,"endTime":608.01,"body":"So when you freeze your"},{"startTime":603.31,"endTime":608.01,"body":"eggs, it's expensive."},{"startTime":608.01,"endTime":611.05,"body":"It costs around £3000 for a cycle,"},{"startTime":611.05,"endTime":612.71,"body":"just to have the eggs removed,"},{"startTime":612.71,"endTime":614.2,"body":"but that comes with other costs."},{"startTime":614.2,"endTime":619.16,"body":"It comes with pre-screening,"},{"startTime":614.2,"endTime":619.16,"body":"it comes with medication costs."},{"startTime":619.16,"endTime":621.15,"body":"And also there's the"},{"startTime":619.16,"endTime":621.15,"body":"ongoing storage costs,"},{"startTime":621.15,"endTime":623.99,"body":"which are up to £350 a year."},{"startTime":623.99,"endTime":628.27,"body":"So you are looking at"},{"startTime":623.99,"endTime":628.27,"body":"three, £4000 per cycle"},{"startTime":628.27,"endTime":630.01,"body":"of eggs to remove the eggs."},{"startTime":630.01,"endTime":633.12,"body":"And if you are looking"},{"startTime":630.01,"endTime":633.12,"body":"to freeze 20 or 30 eggs,"},{"startTime":633.12,"endTime":634.89,"body":"you might have to do two"},{"startTime":633.12,"endTime":634.89,"body":"or three cycles at least,"},{"startTime":634.89,"endTime":637.65,"body":"depending on your ability to produce them."},{"startTime":637.65,"endTime":640.38,"body":"And then you're going to"},{"startTime":637.65,"endTime":640.38,"body":"have to pay out £350 a year"},{"startTime":640.38,"endTime":643.42,"body":"to store them, so if you're"},{"startTime":640.38,"endTime":643.42,"body":"storing for 10 years,"},{"startTime":643.42,"endTime":645.16,"body":"that's itself three and"},{"startTime":643.42,"endTime":645.16,"body":"a half thousand pounds."},{"startTime":645.16,"endTime":646.75,"body":"So it's not cheap."},{"startTime":646.75,"endTime":648.57,"body":"And I would say, if you are looking,"},{"startTime":648.57,"endTime":650.04,"body":"if you're watching this lecture"},{"startTime":648.57,"endTime":650.04,"body":"and you're thinking about"},{"startTime":650.04,"endTime":652.29,"body":"freezing your eggs, pay"},{"startTime":650.04,"endTime":652.29,"body":"really close attention"},{"startTime":652.29,"endTime":654.47,"body":"when you look at clinic"},{"startTime":652.29,"endTime":654.47,"body":"websites to get a really clear"},{"startTime":654.47,"endTime":656.257,"body":"picture of what all of the costs will be"},{"startTime":656.257,"endTime":659.31,"body":"and really plan it out,"},{"startTime":656.257,"endTime":659.31,"body":"don't just look at, well,"},{"startTime":659.31,"endTime":660.32,"body":"one cycle costs this much."},{"startTime":660.32,"endTime":662.92,"body":"There's lots of extra costs"},{"startTime":660.32,"endTime":662.92,"body":"that are involved in this"},{"startTime":662.92,"endTime":665.01,"body":"that you need to be aware of."},{"startTime":665.01,"endTime":667.01,"body":"One of the things these clinics do offer"},{"startTime":667.01,"endTime":669.82,"body":"are what called freeze"},{"startTime":667.01,"endTime":669.82,"body":"and share arrangements."},{"startTime":669.82,"endTime":671.52,"body":"And we'll look at those a bit more later,"},{"startTime":671.52,"endTime":675.86,"body":"where you can get free"},{"startTime":671.52,"endTime":675.86,"body":"cycles and some free storage."},{"startTime":675.86,"endTime":677.96,"body":"If you give away some of your and eggs"},{"startTime":677.96,"endTime":678.93,"body":"to other women who need them,"},{"startTime":678.93,"endTime":681.89,"body":"so you donate them to"},{"startTime":678.93,"endTime":681.89,"body":"other people who need them."},{"startTime":681.89,"endTime":683.26,"body":"So that's the lay of the land"},{"startTime":683.26,"endTime":685.58,"body":"in terms of cost and what it is."},{"startTime":685.58,"endTime":687.72,"body":"So how is it regulated?"},{"startTime":687.72,"endTime":690.01,"body":"Well, I think the first place to start"},{"startTime":690.01,"endTime":690.843,"body":"before we look at the law,"},{"startTime":690.843,"endTime":692.13,"body":"which isn't terribly complicated,"},{"startTime":692.13,"endTime":694.11,"body":"is to look at a bit of the background."},{"startTime":694.11,"endTime":696.333,"body":"And it's quite an interesting"},{"startTime":694.11,"endTime":696.333,"body":"story I think the background,"},{"startTime":696.333,"endTime":698.72,"body":"to how we came to where we generally,"},{"startTime":698.72,"endTime":700.18,"body":"so not necessarily in this country,"},{"startTime":700.18,"endTime":703.14,"body":"but in more general"},{"startTime":700.18,"endTime":703.14,"body":"responses to egg freezing."},{"startTime":703.14,"endTime":706.64,"body":"So when the new technology"},{"startTime":703.14,"endTime":706.64,"body":"of vitrification came out,"},{"startTime":706.64,"endTime":708.53,"body":"there was pushback from some quarters."},{"startTime":708.53,"endTime":711.16,"body":"And the concern was of course,"},{"startTime":708.53,"endTime":711.16,"body":"that it wasn't going to pay out,"},{"startTime":711.16,"endTime":714.2,"body":"this worry that women would rely on it,"},{"startTime":714.2,"endTime":717.14,"body":"but it wasn't yet sure that it"},{"startTime":714.2,"endTime":717.14,"body":"was going to work very well."},{"startTime":717.14,"endTime":718.43,"body":"So in 2009,"},{"startTime":718.43,"endTime":720.6,"body":"the American Society of"},{"startTime":718.43,"endTime":720.6,"body":"Reproductive Medicine"},{"startTime":720.6,"endTime":722.63,"body":"called for fertility clinics to refrain"},{"startTime":722.63,"endTime":725.87,"body":"from offering egg freezing"},{"startTime":722.63,"endTime":725.87,"body":"for social reasons."},{"startTime":725.87,"endTime":729.54,"body":"So medical reasons, fine,"},{"startTime":725.87,"endTime":729.54,"body":"social reasons, not so much."},{"startTime":729.54,"endTime":730.87,"body":"Later on, a few years later,"},{"startTime":730.87,"endTime":732.91,"body":"they released another statement"},{"startTime":730.87,"endTime":732.91,"body":"in which they that well,"},{"startTime":732.91,"endTime":735.83,"body":"even though vitrification"},{"startTime":732.91,"endTime":735.83,"body":"wasn't experimental anymore,"},{"startTime":735.83,"endTime":738.78,"body":"it was still something that"},{"startTime":735.83,"endTime":738.78,"body":"really you should avoid"},{"startTime":738.78,"endTime":740.61,"body":"using it for social uses."},{"startTime":740.61,"endTime":742.01,"body":"They said that there's good evidence"},{"startTime":742.01,"endTime":745.01,"body":"that for fertilization and"},{"startTime":742.01,"endTime":745.01,"body":"pregnancy rates are similar"},{"startTime":745.01,"endTime":748.1,"body":"to IVF and with fresh Aytes,"},{"startTime":748.1,"endTime":750.26,"body":"however, the data are limited."},{"startTime":750.26,"endTime":752.68,"body":"And what they suggested"},{"startTime":750.26,"endTime":752.68,"body":"was it was important"},{"startTime":752.68,"endTime":756.71,"body":"to really inform women about this."},{"startTime":756.71,"endTime":759.72,"body":"And at the time, sometime"},{"startTime":756.71,"endTime":759.72,"body":"shortly afterwards,"},{"startTime":759.72,"endTime":761.56,"body":"American academic John"},{"startTime":759.72,"endTime":761.56,"body":"Robertson said, well look,"},{"startTime":761.56,"endTime":764.87,"body":"it seemed like when"},{"startTime":761.56,"endTime":764.87,"body":"they said these things,"},{"startTime":764.87,"endTime":767.3,"body":"that they were hedging"},{"startTime":764.87,"endTime":767.3,"body":"and that they were hedging"},{"startTime":767.3,"endTime":769.92,"body":"because they were worried that women"},{"startTime":769.92,"endTime":773.73,"body":"would essentially make"},{"startTime":769.92,"endTime":773.73,"body":"choices that were ill informed"},{"startTime":773.73,"endTime":776.283,"body":"or they rely on it when they shouldn't."},{"startTime":777.31,"endTime":778.86,"body":"But I would say, I mean,"},{"startTime":778.86,"endTime":782.54,"body":"the ASRM was restent because"},{"startTime":778.86,"endTime":782.54,"body":"it wasn't clearly safe."},{"startTime":782.54,"endTime":784.79,"body":"It wasn't clearly"},{"startTime":782.54,"endTime":784.79,"body":"efficacious at that point."},{"startTime":784.79,"endTime":785.623,"body":"So they were being careful,"},{"startTime":785.623,"endTime":787.07,"body":"but other people certainly"},{"startTime":785.623,"endTime":787.07,"body":"thought at that time"},{"startTime":787.07,"endTime":789.61,"body":"that they were being paternalistic,"},{"startTime":789.61,"endTime":790.983,"body":"they were worried that it"},{"startTime":789.61,"endTime":790.983,"body":"was going to give women"},{"startTime":790.983,"endTime":794.59,"body":"this false hope and that in part of that,"},{"startTime":794.59,"endTime":797.72,"body":"it would actually encourage"},{"startTime":794.59,"endTime":797.72,"body":"women to delay childbearing."},{"startTime":797.72,"endTime":799.05,"body":"So they would put things off,"},{"startTime":799.05,"endTime":802.33,"body":"rely on something that"},{"startTime":799.05,"endTime":802.33,"body":"wouldn't then pay out for them."},{"startTime":802.33,"endTime":804.49,"body":"They didn't actually say we should ban it,"},{"startTime":804.49,"endTime":805.9,"body":"but they really emphasized the need"},{"startTime":805.9,"endTime":808.11,"body":"to carefully counsel women,"},{"startTime":808.11,"endTime":809.42,"body":"and to give this clear message,"},{"startTime":809.42,"endTime":811.83,"body":"to look at the risk"},{"startTime":809.42,"endTime":811.83,"body":"very, very carefully now,"},{"startTime":811.83,"endTime":814.418,"body":"by contrast in the United Kingdom,"},{"startTime":814.418,"endTime":815.905,"body":"legally was simpler."},{"startTime":815.905,"endTime":818.17,"body":"And in terms of policy was also simpler."},{"startTime":818.17,"endTime":821.55,"body":"So since 2000, it's been"},{"startTime":818.17,"endTime":821.55,"body":"legal in the United Kingdom"},{"startTime":821.55,"endTime":824.95,"body":"to use frozen stored eggs"},{"startTime":821.55,"endTime":824.95,"body":"for infertility treatment."},{"startTime":824.95,"endTime":829.13,"body":"And in fact, the HFEA lifted the ban"},{"startTime":829.13,"endTime":831.61,"body":"that it previously"},{"startTime":829.13,"endTime":831.61,"body":"existed, because they saw"},{"startTime":831.61,"endTime":833.22,"body":"after their own independent report"},{"startTime":833.22,"endTime":834.34,"body":"that they commissioned."},{"startTime":834.34,"endTime":836.23,"body":"They saw that even though"},{"startTime":834.34,"endTime":836.23,"body":"the success rates were low,"},{"startTime":836.23,"endTime":837.54,"body":"they were clearly improving."},{"startTime":837.54,"endTime":839.65,"body":"And there was hope to be"},{"startTime":837.54,"endTime":839.65,"body":"had here as a technique."},{"startTime":839.65,"endTime":841.09,"body":"And so unlike the US,"},{"startTime":841.09,"endTime":842.87,"body":"we saw a much more"},{"startTime":841.09,"endTime":842.87,"body":"positive attitude or, well,"},{"startTime":842.87,"endTime":844.983,"body":"it is risky, but will"},{"startTime":842.87,"endTime":844.983,"body":"allow people to do it."},{"startTime":844.983,"endTime":848.933,"body":"It's a much more permissive"},{"startTime":844.983,"endTime":848.933,"body":"response there, I think."},{"startTime":849.77,"endTime":851.41,"body":"And it's been permissive ever since."},{"startTime":851.41,"endTime":854.71,"body":"So, as it is now, the"},{"startTime":851.41,"endTime":854.71,"body":"law does now allow you"},{"startTime":854.71,"endTime":855.83,"body":"to use them, to store them."},{"startTime":855.83,"endTime":859.15,"body":"The particularly interesting"},{"startTime":855.83,"endTime":859.15,"body":"thing that's happened recently,"},{"startTime":859.15,"endTime":861.9,"body":"the one thing that was the"},{"startTime":859.15,"endTime":861.9,"body":"really big problematic thing"},{"startTime":861.9,"endTime":864.36,"body":"was that the storage limits for eggs"},{"startTime":864.36,"endTime":867.51,"body":"stored in this way were very short."},{"startTime":867.51,"endTime":871.62,"body":"So what the HFEA had"},{"startTime":867.51,"endTime":871.62,"body":"said was that previously,"},{"startTime":871.62,"endTime":874.93,"body":"if you stored gametes and you"},{"startTime":871.62,"endTime":874.93,"body":"didn't have a medical reason,"},{"startTime":874.93,"endTime":877.8,"body":"after 10 years, they would"},{"startTime":874.93,"endTime":877.8,"body":"have to be destroyed."},{"startTime":877.8,"endTime":880.16,"body":"And now, and I can point"},{"startTime":877.8,"endTime":880.16,"body":"someone in the audience and say,"},{"startTime":880.16,"endTime":882.68,"body":"well done, Sarah, because"},{"startTime":880.16,"endTime":882.68,"body":"we can thank Sarah."},{"startTime":882.68,"endTime":884.61,"body":"There's been a campaign to change this."},{"startTime":884.61,"endTime":887.06,"body":"And now we are seeing"},{"startTime":884.61,"endTime":887.06,"body":"the government has said"},{"startTime":887.06,"endTime":890.27,"body":"that they will shift this and"},{"startTime":887.06,"endTime":890.27,"body":"allow now social egg freezing"},{"startTime":890.27,"endTime":892.36,"body":"to be expanded to up to 55 years."},{"startTime":892.36,"endTime":895.2,"body":"So we get the same storage limits."},{"startTime":895.2,"endTime":896.63,"body":"So we will have the same storage limits"},{"startTime":896.63,"endTime":899.49,"body":"for socially frozen eggs as"},{"startTime":896.63,"endTime":899.49,"body":"we were for medical eggs."},{"startTime":899.49,"endTime":902.73,"body":"So the problem before was had"},{"startTime":899.49,"endTime":902.73,"body":"you frozen your eggs early,"},{"startTime":902.73,"endTime":905.87,"body":"freeze them at 30, want to use them at 45,"},{"startTime":905.87,"endTime":907.55,"body":"you would've actually"},{"startTime":905.87,"endTime":907.55,"body":"been made to destroy them"},{"startTime":907.55,"endTime":909.234,"body":"at the 10 year mark."},{"startTime":909.234,"endTime":910.067,"body":"So it was really problematic."},{"startTime":910.067,"endTime":912.4,"body":"And so that's a really important"},{"startTime":910.067,"endTime":912.4,"body":"shift that's come about"},{"startTime":912.4,"endTime":913.84,"body":"because of progress, educational trust"},{"startTime":913.84,"endTime":916.58,"body":"and others campaigns to change the law."},{"startTime":916.58,"endTime":918.483,"body":"But that only happened in late 2021."},{"startTime":919.43,"endTime":920.81,"body":"So in that sense,"},{"startTime":920.81,"endTime":923.93,"body":"that's one of the key regulatory"},{"startTime":920.81,"endTime":923.93,"body":"issues to think about,"},{"startTime":923.93,"endTime":927.35,"body":"the other key regulatory"},{"startTime":923.93,"endTime":927.35,"body":"issue to be mindful of"},{"startTime":927.35,"endTime":928.96,"body":"is what the HFEA does as well,"},{"startTime":928.96,"endTime":931.56,"body":"is that licenses clinics and requires them"},{"startTime":931.56,"endTime":934.15,"body":"to provide information about the risks"},{"startTime":934.15,"endTime":937.37,"body":"and successes of rates of"},{"startTime":934.15,"endTime":937.37,"body":"services, including egg freezing."},{"startTime":937.37,"endTime":939.8,"body":"So this is something"},{"startTime":937.37,"endTime":939.8,"body":"that is required of them."},{"startTime":939.8,"endTime":941.82,"body":"The HFE supports and bolsters this"},{"startTime":941.82,"endTime":944.37,"body":"with its own information on its website."},{"startTime":944.37,"endTime":945.99,"body":"And this is a good thing."},{"startTime":945.99,"endTime":947.87,"body":"There's certainly people"},{"startTime":945.99,"endTime":947.87,"body":"who've done research"},{"startTime":947.87,"endTime":950.08,"body":"into this who suggest that some websites,"},{"startTime":950.08,"endTime":952.91,"body":"some clinics are not always entirely clear"},{"startTime":952.91,"endTime":954.16,"body":"in their information or their information"},{"startTime":954.16,"endTime":955.909,"body":"is somewhat misleading."},{"startTime":955.909,"endTime":956.97,"body":"I think that's a fair comment."},{"startTime":956.97,"endTime":958.81,"body":"I wouldn't want to point out"},{"startTime":956.97,"endTime":958.81,"body":"particular clinics at all,"},{"startTime":958.81,"endTime":960.44,"body":"but what I would say is"},{"startTime":960.44,"endTime":962.0,"body":"that if you are looking at clinic data,"},{"startTime":962.0,"endTime":963.26,"body":"you need to really drill down into it"},{"startTime":963.26,"endTime":965.58,"body":"and look for as much"},{"startTime":963.26,"endTime":965.58,"body":"information as you can get."},{"startTime":965.58,"endTime":967.69,"body":"And also look at general information"},{"startTime":967.69,"endTime":969.763,"body":"and compare clinics and so on."},{"startTime":971.23,"endTime":972.72,"body":"All right, so that's the background."},{"startTime":972.72,"endTime":975.01,"body":"So let's look then at why would a woman"},{"startTime":975.01,"endTime":978.483,"body":"want to freeze her eggs,"},{"startTime":975.01,"endTime":978.483,"body":"to explore some of that."},{"startTime":979.4,"endTime":982.236,"body":"Well, there's a whole range of reasons"},{"startTime":982.236,"endTime":983.804,"body":"why women want to do this,"},{"startTime":983.804,"endTime":985.58,"body":"and I'll go through a couple in time."},{"startTime":985.58,"endTime":988.62,"body":"The key reason is, or the"},{"startTime":985.58,"endTime":988.62,"body":"key fundamental driver"},{"startTime":988.62,"endTime":992.59,"body":"for women is that their"},{"startTime":988.62,"endTime":992.59,"body":"fertility declines as they age."},{"startTime":992.59,"endTime":994.96,"body":"So the exact point at which a"},{"startTime":992.59,"endTime":994.96,"body":"woman will no longer be able"},{"startTime":994.96,"endTime":997.879,"body":"to conceive varies enormously."},{"startTime":997.879,"endTime":1000.78,"body":"Some women will be approaching infertility"},{"startTime":1001.663,"endTime":1003.173,"body":"in the early forties."},{"startTime":1003.173,"endTime":1004.006,"body":"Some it's going to be their late forties."},{"startTime":1005.2,"endTime":1006.478,"body":"Some women have babies into their fifties,"},{"startTime":1006.478,"endTime":1007.481,"body":"it's exceptionally rare,"},{"startTime":1007.481,"endTime":1008.68,"body":"but most women will be"},{"startTime":1007.481,"endTime":1008.68,"body":"approaching infertility"},{"startTime":1008.68,"endTime":1011.293,"body":"by the time they're in"},{"startTime":1008.68,"endTime":1011.293,"body":"their mid to late forties."},{"startTime":1012.798,"endTime":1015.81,"body":"I think widely believe that"},{"startTime":1012.798,"endTime":1015.81,"body":"what happens is your fertility"},{"startTime":1015.81,"endTime":1018.6,"body":"is absolutely fine and then"},{"startTime":1015.81,"endTime":1018.6,"body":"it falls off a cliff edge."},{"startTime":1018.6,"endTime":1021.34,"body":"And as I understand, I don't"},{"startTime":1018.6,"endTime":1021.34,"body":"think that's exactly right."},{"startTime":1021.34,"endTime":1025.06,"body":"You see a slow decline"},{"startTime":1021.34,"endTime":1025.06,"body":"through your thirties,"},{"startTime":1025.06,"endTime":1026.53,"body":"but it gets progressively worse."},{"startTime":1026.53,"endTime":1029.27,"body":"So it isn't the case that"},{"startTime":1026.53,"endTime":1029.27,"body":"everything is 100% simple."},{"startTime":1029.27,"endTime":1031.17,"body":"And then all of a sudden"},{"startTime":1029.27,"endTime":1031.17,"body":"you lose your fertility."},{"startTime":1031.17,"endTime":1033.143,"body":"It is a gradual decline."},{"startTime":1034.65,"endTime":1038.88,"body":"What we can see is that IVF"},{"startTime":1034.65,"endTime":1038.88,"body":"can help some women conceive."},{"startTime":1038.88,"endTime":1041.18,"body":"But what we know is that"},{"startTime":1038.88,"endTime":1041.18,"body":"it's the age of the egg"},{"startTime":1041.18,"endTime":1044.11,"body":"that's affecting that"},{"startTime":1041.18,"endTime":1044.11,"body":"success rate as well."},{"startTime":1044.11,"endTime":1046.47,"body":"So as a woman ages, and she's using IVF,"},{"startTime":1046.47,"endTime":1050.32,"body":"if she's using her own eggs,"},{"startTime":1046.47,"endTime":1050.32,"body":"her success rates decrease."},{"startTime":1050.32,"endTime":1052.21,"body":"And, by the time you're"},{"startTime":1050.32,"endTime":1052.21,"body":"in your mid forties,"},{"startTime":1052.21,"endTime":1056.41,"body":"if you need IVF, your chance"},{"startTime":1052.21,"endTime":1056.41,"body":"of success are about 5%."},{"startTime":1056.41,"endTime":1058.95,"body":"However, if a woman uses a donor egg,"},{"startTime":1058.95,"endTime":1060.7,"body":"and this includes frozen eggs,"},{"startTime":1060.7,"endTime":1063.57,"body":"her chances of success"},{"startTime":1060.7,"endTime":1063.57,"body":"say relatively stable,"},{"startTime":1063.57,"endTime":1065.15,"body":"be it they begin to drop,"},{"startTime":1065.15,"endTime":1068.14,"body":"but by the time you hit your"},{"startTime":1065.15,"endTime":1068.14,"body":"late forties, early fifties,"},{"startTime":1068.14,"endTime":1069.25,"body":"even with donor eggs,"},{"startTime":1069.25,"endTime":1071.97,"body":"women will be having a very"},{"startTime":1069.25,"endTime":1071.97,"body":"difficult time getting pregnant."},{"startTime":1071.97,"endTime":1074.01,"body":"So we do see these news stories of women"},{"startTime":1074.01,"endTime":1075.98,"body":"having babies in their"},{"startTime":1074.01,"endTime":1075.98,"body":"fifties and sixties,"},{"startTime":1075.98,"endTime":1078.41,"body":"but they're very much the unusual case,"},{"startTime":1078.41,"endTime":1081.38,"body":"that women simply become less able"},{"startTime":1081.38,"endTime":1083.793,"body":"to carry pregnancies as well."},{"startTime":1085.08,"endTime":1086.96,"body":"What also happens as women age,"},{"startTime":1086.96,"endTime":1088.87,"body":"happening in tandem with this is,"},{"startTime":1088.87,"endTime":1090.23,"body":"and this is intertwined with it,"},{"startTime":1090.23,"endTime":1092.98,"body":"is they begin to face"},{"startTime":1090.23,"endTime":1092.98,"body":"high risks of miscarriage."},{"startTime":1092.98,"endTime":1094.44,"body":"And so this affects as well,"},{"startTime":1094.44,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"their ability to carry"},{"startTime":1094.44,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"pregnancy successfully to term."},{"startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1100.09,"body":"So it's absolutely the"},{"startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1100.09,"body":"case that women are facing"},{"startTime":1100.09,"endTime":1102.2,"body":"this cliched ticking clock."},{"startTime":1102.2,"endTime":1103.41,"body":"Although it doesn't always tick"},{"startTime":1103.41,"endTime":1106.95,"body":"exactly I think as we might"},{"startTime":1103.41,"endTime":1106.95,"body":"have been led to believe,"},{"startTime":1106.95,"endTime":1109.38,"body":"so it seems obvious then"},{"startTime":1106.95,"endTime":1109.38,"body":"that what women should do"},{"startTime":1109.38,"endTime":1110.98,"body":"in the face of this is"},{"startTime":1109.38,"endTime":1110.98,"body":"just have their children"},{"startTime":1110.98,"endTime":1113.54,"body":"when they're younger and"},{"startTime":1110.98,"endTime":1113.54,"body":"when they're more fertile."},{"startTime":1113.54,"endTime":1115.36,"body":"But of course, as I'm sure you will know,"},{"startTime":1115.36,"endTime":1116.91,"body":"it's far less obvious than that."},{"startTime":1116.91,"endTime":1118.59,"body":"And I think you'll"},{"startTime":1116.91,"endTime":1118.59,"body":"understand that at least some"},{"startTime":1118.59,"endTime":1120.78,"body":"of the reasons why women might put off"},{"startTime":1120.78,"endTime":1122.48,"body":"having children until later in life."},{"startTime":1122.48,"endTime":1125.623,"body":"And so it's not actually as"},{"startTime":1122.48,"endTime":1125.623,"body":"simple as that for most women."},{"startTime":1126.59,"endTime":1130.13,"body":"So what I want to do now is"},{"startTime":1126.59,"endTime":1130.13,"body":"unpack some of those reasons,"},{"startTime":1130.13,"endTime":1132.06,"body":"the reasons that women say they have,"},{"startTime":1132.06,"endTime":1134.12,"body":"but also the reasons that"},{"startTime":1132.06,"endTime":1134.12,"body":"they need to be aware of"},{"startTime":1134.12,"endTime":1136.17,"body":"that ought to be informing their choices."},{"startTime":1137.38,"endTime":1139.76,"body":"So one of the really"},{"startTime":1137.38,"endTime":1139.76,"body":"important things to appreciate"},{"startTime":1139.76,"endTime":1142.17,"body":"about women's choices about"},{"startTime":1139.76,"endTime":1142.17,"body":"timing of reproduction"},{"startTime":1142.17,"endTime":1145.03,"body":"is the impact that it"},{"startTime":1142.17,"endTime":1145.03,"body":"has on their outcomes."},{"startTime":1145.03,"endTime":1147.57,"body":"And one thing we know is that the point"},{"startTime":1147.57,"endTime":1150.34,"body":"at which women leave"},{"startTime":1147.57,"endTime":1150.34,"body":"employment really affects"},{"startTime":1150.34,"endTime":1152.44,"body":"their long term employment prospects"},{"startTime":1152.44,"endTime":1155.14,"body":"and their career earnings,"},{"startTime":1155.14,"endTime":1158.13,"body":"has a big financial impact on women."},{"startTime":1158.13,"endTime":1161.48,"body":"Now, partly this is because"},{"startTime":1158.13,"endTime":1161.48,"body":"women step out of their career"},{"startTime":1161.48,"endTime":1164.583,"body":"and they have a long hiatus,"},{"startTime":1161.48,"endTime":1164.583,"body":"that can affect things."},{"startTime":1165.77,"endTime":1168.29,"body":"But one thing we know is that the point"},{"startTime":1168.29,"endTime":1170.45,"body":"at which they step out will affect"},{"startTime":1170.45,"endTime":1173.19,"body":"how they go back into the workplace."},{"startTime":1173.19,"endTime":1175.18,"body":"So women stay away from"},{"startTime":1173.19,"endTime":1175.18,"body":"the workplace for a while."},{"startTime":1175.18,"endTime":1177.99,"body":"They come back into the workplace"},{"startTime":1175.18,"endTime":1177.99,"body":"and there is lots of data"},{"startTime":1177.99,"endTime":1179.44,"body":"that shows that employers"},{"startTime":1179.44,"endTime":1180.93,"body":"have particular perspectives on that,"},{"startTime":1180.93,"endTime":1183.39,"body":"that they're less inclined to"},{"startTime":1180.93,"endTime":1183.39,"body":"think these women have skills."},{"startTime":1183.39,"endTime":1185.37,"body":"They worry about whether"},{"startTime":1183.39,"endTime":1185.37,"body":"they could put the time in."},{"startTime":1185.37,"endTime":1187.66,"body":"They worry about them being absent."},{"startTime":1187.66,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"They have all sorts of concerns"},{"startTime":1187.66,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"that are in the literature"},{"startTime":1190.08,"endTime":1192.268,"body":"that they have about women going back"},{"startTime":1192.268,"endTime":1193.868,"body":"into the workplace is one thing."},{"startTime":1195.51,"endTime":1198.36,"body":"Another thing is that if you"},{"startTime":1195.51,"endTime":1198.36,"body":"step out of the workforce,"},{"startTime":1198.36,"endTime":1200.7,"body":"you actually lose time"},{"startTime":1198.36,"endTime":1200.7,"body":"in building your skills."},{"startTime":1200.7,"endTime":1203.65,"body":"So you'll necessarily"},{"startTime":1200.7,"endTime":1203.65,"body":"be behind other people,"},{"startTime":1203.65,"endTime":1206.28,"body":"and that's going to"},{"startTime":1203.65,"endTime":1206.28,"body":"affect women's outcomes"},{"startTime":1207.413,"endTime":1209.41,"body":"in terms of income and"},{"startTime":1207.413,"endTime":1209.41,"body":"progression and promotion."},{"startTime":1209.41,"endTime":1211.57,"body":"There are also really key"},{"startTime":1209.41,"endTime":1211.57,"body":"points that we stepping"},{"startTime":1211.57,"endTime":1215.01,"body":"out of the workplace can be"},{"startTime":1211.57,"endTime":1215.01,"body":"really problematic for women."},{"startTime":1215.01,"endTime":1217.03,"body":"So if you step out at a point"},{"startTime":1215.01,"endTime":1217.03,"body":"where you're just getting"},{"startTime":1217.03,"endTime":1220.06,"body":"to the level of promotion,"},{"startTime":1217.03,"endTime":1220.06,"body":"you step out at that stage,"},{"startTime":1220.06,"endTime":1221.73,"body":"that might be really problematic."},{"startTime":1221.73,"endTime":1223.82,"body":"Other people will surpass"},{"startTime":1221.73,"endTime":1223.82,"body":"you, you'll have gaps"},{"startTime":1223.82,"endTime":1225.35,"body":"on your CV when you come back in."},{"startTime":1225.35,"endTime":1227.0,"body":"So there's all these practical impacts"},{"startTime":1227.0,"endTime":1228.853,"body":"that are had there."},{"startTime":1229.72,"endTime":1232.19,"body":"Another dimension of why women do this,"},{"startTime":1232.19,"endTime":1235.36,"body":"so why do they not simply"},{"startTime":1232.19,"endTime":1235.36,"body":"behave differently?"},{"startTime":1235.36,"endTime":1236.54,"body":"Well, I think it's important to see"},{"startTime":1236.54,"endTime":1238.38,"body":"that also when women step"},{"startTime":1236.54,"endTime":1238.38,"body":"out of the workplace,"},{"startTime":1238.38,"endTime":1240.31,"body":"stepping back in might"},{"startTime":1238.38,"endTime":1240.31,"body":"be really difficult."},{"startTime":1240.31,"endTime":1242.9,"body":"And part of that comes"},{"startTime":1240.31,"endTime":1242.9,"body":"from the idea that often"},{"startTime":1242.9,"endTime":1246.843,"body":"what happens is women"},{"startTime":1242.9,"endTime":1246.843,"body":"crystallize into being the carer."},{"startTime":1247.81,"endTime":1250.08,"body":"So women step out, they have"},{"startTime":1247.81,"endTime":1250.08,"body":"to take a certain amount"},{"startTime":1250.08,"endTime":1252.88,"body":"of time out to have the baby,"},{"startTime":1250.08,"endTime":1252.88,"body":"to do the breastfeeding."},{"startTime":1252.88,"endTime":1254.7,"body":"Whatever, happens in the early stages."},{"startTime":1254.7,"endTime":1257.37,"body":"What we see still happens"},{"startTime":1254.7,"endTime":1257.37,"body":"is they crystallize"},{"startTime":1257.37,"endTime":1260.85,"body":"into being the carer, they"},{"startTime":1257.37,"endTime":1260.85,"body":"remain in that carer role."},{"startTime":1260.85,"endTime":1264.162,"body":"Now this is improved as we"},{"startTime":1260.85,"endTime":1264.162,"body":"have shifted and given men"},{"startTime":1264.162,"endTime":1267.39,"body":"more generous leave entitlements,"},{"startTime":1264.162,"endTime":1267.39,"body":"than we had previously,"},{"startTime":1267.39,"endTime":1269.862,"body":"previously women were absolutely the one"},{"startTime":1269.862,"endTime":1270.869,"body":"who had to take the leave."},{"startTime":1270.869,"endTime":1272.44,"body":"Now that's obviously changed now,"},{"startTime":1272.44,"endTime":1275.75,"body":"but even though men can"},{"startTime":1272.44,"endTime":1275.75,"body":"now take parental leave"},{"startTime":1275.75,"endTime":1278.5,"body":"in the same way, the culture"},{"startTime":1275.75,"endTime":1278.5,"body":"hasn't shifted enough,"},{"startTime":1278.5,"endTime":1279.78,"body":"many men report that actually"},{"startTime":1279.78,"endTime":1281.87,"body":"they still don't want to step out."},{"startTime":1281.87,"endTime":1283.88,"body":"Either their workplace doesn't accept it,"},{"startTime":1283.88,"endTime":1285.49,"body":"or the culture makes them feel"},{"startTime":1285.49,"endTime":1287.28,"body":"like it's the wrong decision to make."},{"startTime":1287.28,"endTime":1290.68,"body":"So it's still the case that"},{"startTime":1287.28,"endTime":1290.68,"body":"is often women who step out"},{"startTime":1290.68,"endTime":1292.39,"body":"and particularly if it's the case"},{"startTime":1292.39,"endTime":1294.67,"body":"that across the board on"},{"startTime":1292.39,"endTime":1294.67,"body":"average, women are earning less."},{"startTime":1294.67,"endTime":1297.18,"body":"Then that may also be"},{"startTime":1294.67,"endTime":1297.18,"body":"just in many couples,"},{"startTime":1297.18,"endTime":1299.23,"body":"the rational choice for them financially."},{"startTime":1300.84,"endTime":1303.05,"body":"What we also know, not"},{"startTime":1300.84,"endTime":1303.05,"body":"looking just in this country,"},{"startTime":1303.05,"endTime":1304.74,"body":"but more broadly, is in other countries"},{"startTime":1304.74,"endTime":1307.79,"body":"where they don't have equal"},{"startTime":1304.74,"endTime":1307.79,"body":"leave in the way that we do,"},{"startTime":1307.79,"endTime":1310.55,"body":"then women have even more"},{"startTime":1307.79,"endTime":1310.55,"body":"incentive to be the people"},{"startTime":1310.55,"endTime":1313.15,"body":"who take time away because"},{"startTime":1310.55,"endTime":1313.15,"body":"they're the ones who can access"},{"startTime":1313.15,"endTime":1314.6,"body":"the leave, and that was"},{"startTime":1313.15,"endTime":1314.6,"body":"certainly my experience."},{"startTime":1314.6,"endTime":1316.786,"body":"I was the one who had access"},{"startTime":1314.6,"endTime":1316.786,"body":"to leave, so I took the leave."},{"startTime":1316.786,"endTime":1318.425,"body":"My husband didn't, he stayed in work."},{"startTime":1318.425,"endTime":1321.536,"body":"So the net result of all of this"},{"startTime":1321.536,"endTime":1323.72,"body":"is that it is women rather than men"},{"startTime":1323.72,"endTime":1324.66,"body":"who are taking more time"},{"startTime":1323.72,"endTime":1324.66,"body":"out of the workplace"},{"startTime":1324.66,"endTime":1325.71,"body":"when a child is born."},{"startTime":1327.18,"endTime":1330.02,"body":"And there are later that show that a year"},{"startTime":1330.02,"endTime":1333.124,"body":"of delayed motherhood actually"},{"startTime":1330.02,"endTime":1333.124,"body":"increases career earnings"},{"startTime":1333.124,"endTime":1333.957,"body":"by up to 9%."},{"startTime":1333.957,"endTime":1336.36,"body":"So that's American data, but"},{"startTime":1333.957,"endTime":1336.36,"body":"it probably applies here."},{"startTime":1336.36,"endTime":1338.43,"body":"It increases work experience by 6%"},{"startTime":1338.43,"endTime":1341.7,"body":"and average wages over lifetime by 3%."},{"startTime":1341.7,"endTime":1344.42,"body":"So these are serious financial"},{"startTime":1341.7,"endTime":1344.42,"body":"impacts when you add them up."},{"startTime":1344.42,"endTime":1348.22,"body":"And they're also stronger, the more women."},{"startTime":1348.22,"endTime":1349.61,"body":"So women in more professional"},{"startTime":1349.61,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"and managerial occupations take"},{"startTime":1349.61,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"even larger financial hits."},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1355.53,"body":"So those with college"},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1355.53,"body":"degrees and professional"},{"startTime":1355.53,"endTime":1358.5,"body":"managerial applications receive"},{"startTime":1355.53,"endTime":1358.5,"body":"the greatest career returns"},{"startTime":1358.5,"endTime":1360.71,"body":"if they delay, so the"},{"startTime":1358.5,"endTime":1360.71,"body":"longer they put it off"},{"startTime":1360.71,"endTime":1363.04,"body":"and they get to a particular"},{"startTime":1360.71,"endTime":1363.04,"body":"level in their profession,"},{"startTime":1363.04,"endTime":1364.94,"body":"the better it is for them financially."},{"startTime":1366.29,"endTime":1369.2,"body":"And so it has been said that"},{"startTime":1366.29,"endTime":1369.2,"body":"in fact it can account for,"},{"startTime":1369.2,"endTime":1371.53,"body":"there's one study that"},{"startTime":1369.2,"endTime":1371.53,"body":"suggests that it could account"},{"startTime":1371.53,"endTime":1373.75,"body":"for as much as 12% of the gender wage gap"},{"startTime":1373.75,"endTime":1375.26,"body":"is the fact that women have to step out"},{"startTime":1375.26,"endTime":1377.71,"body":"of the workplace at suboptimal points"},{"startTime":1377.71,"endTime":1379.96,"body":"and step out for a"},{"startTime":1377.71,"endTime":1379.96,"body":"particular period of time."},{"startTime":1381.54,"endTime":1383.1,"body":"And so this is one dimension"},{"startTime":1383.1,"endTime":1385.07,"body":"and women are very much mindful of this."},{"startTime":1385.07,"endTime":1387.6,"body":"So this is a survey from BPAS"},{"startTime":1385.07,"endTime":1387.6,"body":"in which they explain, well,"},{"startTime":1387.6,"endTime":1390.47,"body":"the three most important"},{"startTime":1387.6,"endTime":1390.47,"body":"factors women say they have"},{"startTime":1390.47,"endTime":1391.48,"body":"when they're starting a family,"},{"startTime":1391.48,"endTime":1393.48,"body":"are they want to be in"},{"startTime":1391.48,"endTime":1393.48,"body":"the right relationship,"},{"startTime":1393.48,"endTime":1395.3,"body":"but they want financial"},{"startTime":1393.48,"endTime":1395.3,"body":"security and they want to own"},{"startTime":1395.3,"endTime":1397.67,"body":"their own home, so far from not being live"},{"startTime":1397.67,"endTime":1400.973,"body":"to the financial pressures"},{"startTime":1397.67,"endTime":1400.973,"body":"on them, they very much are."},{"startTime":1402.72,"endTime":1406.84,"body":"Women also suffer if they"},{"startTime":1402.72,"endTime":1406.84,"body":"step out of higher education"},{"startTime":1406.84,"endTime":1408.166,"body":"at particular points."},{"startTime":1408.166,"endTime":1410.21,"body":"So it's well established that"},{"startTime":1408.166,"endTime":1410.21,"body":"women's educational outcomes"},{"startTime":1410.21,"endTime":1412.84,"body":"can be adversely affected by a decision"},{"startTime":1412.84,"endTime":1415.463,"body":"by the time at which she"},{"startTime":1412.84,"endTime":1415.463,"body":"decides to have children."},{"startTime":1416.62,"endTime":1419.0,"body":"And what we know is that"},{"startTime":1416.62,"endTime":1419.0,"body":"postponement is correlated"},{"startTime":1419.0,"endTime":1421.32,"body":"with greater participation,"},{"startTime":1419.0,"endTime":1421.32,"body":"higher education,"},{"startTime":1421.32,"endTime":1423.0,"body":"and higher rates of childlessness"},{"startTime":1423.0,"endTime":1424.98,"body":"with the attainment of"},{"startTime":1423.0,"endTime":1424.98,"body":"degree level qualifications."},{"startTime":1424.98,"endTime":1427.31,"body":"So they track with one another."},{"startTime":1427.31,"endTime":1429.74,"body":"Now, why are men not"},{"startTime":1427.31,"endTime":1429.74,"body":"affected in the same way?"},{"startTime":1429.74,"endTime":1432.04,"body":"Well, similar reasons to employment,"},{"startTime":1432.04,"endTime":1433.72,"body":"childbearing affects the women's capacity"},{"startTime":1433.72,"endTime":1435.64,"body":"to undertake education,"},{"startTime":1435.64,"endTime":1437.67,"body":"her capacity to be in full-time education,"},{"startTime":1437.67,"endTime":1440.69,"body":"go to class every day, do"},{"startTime":1437.67,"endTime":1440.69,"body":"everything that's required"},{"startTime":1440.69,"endTime":1443.593,"body":"is affected if she is the primary carer."},{"startTime":1444.97,"endTime":1446.87,"body":"And so they may not be"},{"startTime":1444.97,"endTime":1446.87,"body":"able to stay in education."},{"startTime":1446.87,"endTime":1448.88,"body":"They step out, they don't"},{"startTime":1446.87,"endTime":1448.88,"body":"come back into education."},{"startTime":1448.88,"endTime":1451.54,"body":"They have all sorts of complexities."},{"startTime":1451.54,"endTime":1454.56,"body":"There also childcare costs might"},{"startTime":1451.54,"endTime":1454.56,"body":"make it difficult for women"},{"startTime":1454.56,"endTime":1456.46,"body":"to come back into education."},{"startTime":1456.46,"endTime":1458.19,"body":"If they need to put"},{"startTime":1456.46,"endTime":1458.19,"body":"their child into daycare."},{"startTime":1458.19,"endTime":1459.03,"body":"And yet they can't afford it"},{"startTime":1459.03,"endTime":1460.39,"body":"because they're a full-time student."},{"startTime":1460.39,"endTime":1462.84,"body":"So they face all sorts of complexities,"},{"startTime":1462.84,"endTime":1464.57,"body":"particularly if they don't"},{"startTime":1462.84,"endTime":1464.57,"body":"have a partner at that point,"},{"startTime":1464.57,"endTime":1466.33,"body":"that even more complicated for them."},{"startTime":1466.33,"endTime":1469.01,"body":"So it's not surprising that"},{"startTime":1466.33,"endTime":1469.01,"body":"there is this relationship"},{"startTime":1469.01,"endTime":1472.853,"body":"between timing of childbearing"},{"startTime":1469.01,"endTime":1472.853,"body":"and educational outcomes."},{"startTime":1475.32,"endTime":1478.47,"body":"Women often say another reason"},{"startTime":1475.32,"endTime":1478.47,"body":"why they might want to wait"},{"startTime":1478.47,"endTime":1480.01,"body":"or have the capacity to wait"},{"startTime":1480.01,"endTime":1482.57,"body":"is they're looking for the right partner."},{"startTime":1482.57,"endTime":1484.42,"body":"So some women feel"},{"startTime":1482.57,"endTime":1484.42,"body":"pressure to find a partner."},{"startTime":1484.42,"endTime":1487.32,"body":"The classic thing you"},{"startTime":1484.42,"endTime":1487.32,"body":"will see in the media"},{"startTime":1487.32,"endTime":1490.48,"body":"is that women are kind"},{"startTime":1487.32,"endTime":1490.48,"body":"of waiting for Mr. right."},{"startTime":1490.48,"endTime":1492.63,"body":"So this is one woman saying"},{"startTime":1490.48,"endTime":1492.63,"body":"I was starting to feel"},{"startTime":1492.63,"endTime":1494.55,"body":"that the desire to have"},{"startTime":1492.63,"endTime":1494.55,"body":"children was putting pressure"},{"startTime":1494.55,"endTime":1497.823,"body":"on my relationship and"},{"startTime":1494.55,"endTime":1497.823,"body":"that was concerning her."},{"startTime":1498.67,"endTime":1500.7,"body":"Other women say they want to postpone"},{"startTime":1500.7,"endTime":1504.06,"body":"because what they want is"},{"startTime":1500.7,"endTime":1504.06,"body":"time to be emotionally ready."},{"startTime":1504.06,"endTime":1507.13,"body":"So this is one woman saying I"},{"startTime":1504.06,"endTime":1507.13,"body":"experienced four miscarriages,"},{"startTime":1507.13,"endTime":1510.28,"body":"after the birth of my first"},{"startTime":1507.13,"endTime":1510.28,"body":"daughter when I was 43."},{"startTime":1510.28,"endTime":1511.76,"body":"And the loss was excruciating,"},{"startTime":1511.76,"endTime":1514.8,"body":"especially as I did not have"},{"startTime":1511.76,"endTime":1514.8,"body":"years ahead of me to try again,"},{"startTime":1514.8,"endTime":1516.6,"body":"the upside, however, was having a child"},{"startTime":1516.6,"endTime":1519.1,"body":"when I was ready"},{"startTime":1516.6,"endTime":1519.1,"body":"psychologically and emotionally,"},{"startTime":1519.1,"endTime":1521.787,"body":"and was in the right"},{"startTime":1519.1,"endTime":1521.787,"body":"relationship and the time of life"},{"startTime":1521.787,"endTime":1522.785,"body":"to do so."},{"startTime":1522.785,"endTime":1523.618,"body":"She's saying that she in hindsight,"},{"startTime":1523.618,"endTime":1526.15,"body":"found that this was a benefit."},{"startTime":1526.15,"endTime":1528.11,"body":"So what see is you have this situation,"},{"startTime":1528.11,"endTime":1529.8,"body":"that's getting women to have to juggle,"},{"startTime":1529.8,"endTime":1532.78,"body":"establishing a career and having a family"},{"startTime":1532.78,"endTime":1534.837,"body":"and finding the right"},{"startTime":1532.78,"endTime":1534.837,"body":"person and feeling ready."},{"startTime":1534.837,"endTime":1536.99,"body":"And so they're under a"},{"startTime":1534.837,"endTime":1536.99,"body":"great deal of pressure"},{"startTime":1536.99,"endTime":1538.113,"body":"in that sense."},{"startTime":1539.422,"endTime":1542.73,"body":"So why then given all"},{"startTime":1539.422,"endTime":1542.73,"body":"these really good reasons"},{"startTime":1542.73,"endTime":1546.03,"body":"that women have for wanting to potentially"},{"startTime":1546.03,"endTime":1548.99,"body":"push their fertility and"},{"startTime":1546.03,"endTime":1548.99,"body":"have children slightly later"},{"startTime":1548.99,"endTime":1550.57,"body":"and thereby want to access"},{"startTime":1550.57,"endTime":1553.33,"body":"egg freezing services to back them up,"},{"startTime":1553.33,"endTime":1556.26,"body":"why would anybody have"},{"startTime":1553.33,"endTime":1556.26,"body":"any concerns about it?"},{"startTime":1556.26,"endTime":1558.173,"body":"Well, this is the bit to unpack."},{"startTime":1559.3,"endTime":1562.37,"body":"There are a long list of"},{"startTime":1559.3,"endTime":1562.37,"body":"reasons that have been raised"},{"startTime":1562.37,"endTime":1565.023,"body":"in the various literature"},{"startTime":1562.37,"endTime":1565.023,"body":"and in the media."},{"startTime":1566.12,"endTime":1569.08,"body":"So one of those that sometimes suggested,"},{"startTime":1569.08,"endTime":1571.38,"body":"and this is where the"},{"startTime":1569.08,"endTime":1571.38,"body":"debate about whether women"},{"startTime":1571.38,"endTime":1573.904,"body":"should have children older at all, right?"},{"startTime":1573.904,"endTime":1574.85,"body":"So it feeds into the egg freezing debate,"},{"startTime":1574.85,"endTime":1576.73,"body":"but it's not the whole of"},{"startTime":1574.85,"endTime":1576.73,"body":"the egg freezing debate,"},{"startTime":1576.73,"endTime":1578.84,"body":"but you'll see it in general responses"},{"startTime":1578.84,"endTime":1581.37,"body":"to women having children"},{"startTime":1578.84,"endTime":1581.37,"body":"when they're older"},{"startTime":1581.37,"endTime":1584.028,"body":"is the idea that it's better for women"},{"startTime":1584.028,"endTime":1585.5,"body":"to have children when they're younger."},{"startTime":1585.5,"endTime":1587.49,"body":"Why would people think this?"},{"startTime":1587.49,"endTime":1588.323,"body":"I mean, I would say"},{"startTime":1588.323,"endTime":1590.06,"body":"women are the best"},{"startTime":1588.323,"endTime":1590.06,"body":"judges of when they ought"},{"startTime":1590.06,"endTime":1591.44,"body":"to have their own children,"},{"startTime":1591.44,"endTime":1593.79,"body":"but what are people trying to say?"},{"startTime":1593.79,"endTime":1595.657,"body":"Well, the arguments people make about this"},{"startTime":1595.657,"endTime":1599.22,"body":"are that women will be earning"},{"startTime":1595.657,"endTime":1599.22,"body":"more when they're older."},{"startTime":1599.22,"endTime":1602.48,"body":"So that's a good thing for"},{"startTime":1599.22,"endTime":1602.48,"body":"them, but the problems are"},{"startTime":1602.48,"endTime":1605.13,"body":"that of course, if they"},{"startTime":1602.48,"endTime":1605.13,"body":"have their children earlier,"},{"startTime":1605.13,"endTime":1606.87,"body":"they don't face the various risks"},{"startTime":1606.87,"endTime":1608.87,"body":"that women who have them later have."},{"startTime":1608.87,"endTime":1612.51,"body":"And those risks are things"},{"startTime":1608.87,"endTime":1612.51,"body":"like risk to their health."},{"startTime":1612.51,"endTime":1614.0,"body":"So being pregnant later in life,"},{"startTime":1614.0,"endTime":1615.95,"body":"particularly in your forties"},{"startTime":1614.0,"endTime":1615.95,"body":"has a range of risks."},{"startTime":1615.95,"endTime":1618.763,"body":"Health risks increase at that age,"},{"startTime":1619.63,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"but also women report"},{"startTime":1619.63,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"that they are very worried"},{"startTime":1622.7,"endTime":1626.764,"body":"about community attitudes"},{"startTime":1622.7,"endTime":1626.764,"body":"to being an older mother."},{"startTime":1626.764,"endTime":1628.97,"body":"So the shock or disgust that some report,"},{"startTime":1628.97,"endTime":1632.684,"body":"the criticism, being referred"},{"startTime":1628.97,"endTime":1632.684,"body":"to as a geriatric mother"},{"startTime":1632.684,"endTime":1635.16,"body":"or being mistaken for a"},{"startTime":1632.684,"endTime":1635.16,"body":"grandmother at the school gate,"},{"startTime":1635.16,"endTime":1636.82,"body":"all of these sort of ideas,"},{"startTime":1636.82,"endTime":1640.61,"body":"women are very much live to"},{"startTime":1636.82,"endTime":1640.61,"body":"those and concerned about them."},{"startTime":1640.61,"endTime":1642.646,"body":"They also say they're worried about things"},{"startTime":1642.646,"endTime":1643.479,"body":"like their energy levels"},{"startTime":1643.479,"endTime":1644.64,"body":"and their capacity to cope and so on."},{"startTime":1644.64,"endTime":1647.52,"body":"So they do say all of these things."},{"startTime":1647.52,"endTime":1650.71,"body":"And so therefore people"},{"startTime":1647.52,"endTime":1650.71,"body":"build on this to say, well,"},{"startTime":1650.71,"endTime":1652.59,"body":"it would be better if they just"},{"startTime":1650.71,"endTime":1652.59,"body":"had their children earlier,"},{"startTime":1652.59,"endTime":1655.12,"body":"they should take the"},{"startTime":1652.59,"endTime":1655.12,"body":"hits on their education"},{"startTime":1655.12,"endTime":1657.643,"body":"or their employment,"},{"startTime":1655.12,"endTime":1657.643,"body":"and just do it sooner."},{"startTime":1659.59,"endTime":1661.95,"body":"People also suggest that"},{"startTime":1659.59,"endTime":1661.95,"body":"it's better for children"},{"startTime":1661.95,"endTime":1664.565,"body":"to be born to younger mothers."},{"startTime":1664.565,"endTime":1665.9,"body":"There's a range of ways this is framed."},{"startTime":1665.9,"endTime":1668.65,"body":"And it comes up again in the debates,"},{"startTime":1668.65,"endTime":1670.2,"body":"where people talk about"},{"startTime":1668.65,"endTime":1670.2,"body":"women having babies"},{"startTime":1670.2,"endTime":1671.86,"body":"in their fifties and sixties."},{"startTime":1671.86,"endTime":1673.7,"body":"I mean, the thing I want to"},{"startTime":1671.86,"endTime":1673.7,"body":"say at the outset of this"},{"startTime":1673.7,"endTime":1676.66,"body":"is we really don't see"},{"startTime":1673.7,"endTime":1676.66,"body":"that criticism of men."},{"startTime":1676.66,"endTime":1678.91,"body":"It is very gendered."},{"startTime":1678.91,"endTime":1681.38,"body":"All you have to do is"},{"startTime":1678.91,"endTime":1681.38,"body":"Google all of those articles"},{"startTime":1681.38,"endTime":1683.257,"body":"about women having"},{"startTime":1681.38,"endTime":1683.257,"body":"babies in their sixties,"},{"startTime":1683.257,"endTime":1684.81,"body":"and that all really gendered."},{"startTime":1684.81,"endTime":1687.58,"body":"No one is criticizing Charlie"},{"startTime":1684.81,"endTime":1687.58,"body":"Chaplin for having babies."},{"startTime":1687.58,"endTime":1688.599,"body":"In fact, if you look for that, well,"},{"startTime":1688.599,"endTime":1690.47,"body":"the dominant thing that you see"},{"startTime":1690.47,"endTime":1693.18,"body":"when men have children"},{"startTime":1690.47,"endTime":1693.18,"body":"late is well done you,"},{"startTime":1693.18,"endTime":1694.66,"body":"you're still very fertile,"},{"startTime":1694.66,"endTime":1699.12,"body":"women get the absolute response to them."},{"startTime":1699.12,"endTime":1700.94,"body":"No one is worrying that the dad is going"},{"startTime":1700.94,"endTime":1702.5,"body":"to look like a granddad at the gate,"},{"startTime":1702.5,"endTime":1704.22,"body":"but they're very concerned"},{"startTime":1704.22,"endTime":1707.813,"body":"about a woman who might not"},{"startTime":1704.22,"endTime":1707.813,"body":"look right at the school gate,"},{"startTime":1708.68,"endTime":1709.92,"body":"but what are some of the better options?"},{"startTime":1709.92,"endTime":1713.31,"body":"Well people like Arthur Kaplan,"},{"startTime":1709.92,"endTime":1713.31,"body":"he's an American academic."},{"startTime":1713.31,"endTime":1716.11,"body":"He says, look, it's not good public policy"},{"startTime":1716.11,"endTime":1718.26,"body":"to produce children in a context"},{"startTime":1718.26,"endTime":1720.28,"body":"where they might end up orphans."},{"startTime":1720.28,"endTime":1723.37,"body":"So he says, producing orphans"},{"startTime":1720.28,"endTime":1723.37,"body":"is not good public policy."},{"startTime":1723.37,"endTime":1726.378,"body":"And what he means is that if"},{"startTime":1723.37,"endTime":1726.378,"body":"you have your children later"},{"startTime":1726.378,"endTime":1728.3,"body":"as a woman, you're more"},{"startTime":1726.378,"endTime":1728.3,"body":"likely to die sooner."},{"startTime":1728.3,"endTime":1730.02,"body":"And so the child be left without a carer."},{"startTime":1730.02,"endTime":1731.58,"body":"And this objection, of course,"},{"startTime":1731.58,"endTime":1734.14,"body":"rests on things like"},{"startTime":1731.58,"endTime":1734.14,"body":"lack of parental support"},{"startTime":1734.14,"endTime":1736.08,"body":"and emotional anguish at the early death"},{"startTime":1736.08,"endTime":1739.41,"body":"of the mothers, this is"},{"startTime":1736.08,"endTime":1739.41,"body":"very terrible for the child."},{"startTime":1739.41,"endTime":1741.49,"body":"Now that might be legitimate."},{"startTime":1741.49,"endTime":1744.46,"body":"You might see that"},{"startTime":1741.49,"endTime":1744.46,"body":"there's a logic to that,"},{"startTime":1744.46,"endTime":1746.81,"body":"but it isn't about women"},{"startTime":1744.46,"endTime":1746.81,"body":"having children later."},{"startTime":1746.81,"endTime":1749.606,"body":"It's about people having children later."},{"startTime":1749.606,"endTime":1750.439,"body":"And yet it isn't framed that way."},{"startTime":1750.439,"endTime":1752.63,"body":"It's very much framed"},{"startTime":1750.439,"endTime":1752.63,"body":"in terms of the woman"},{"startTime":1752.63,"endTime":1753.95,"body":"is doing the wrong thing here."},{"startTime":1753.95,"endTime":1757.5,"body":"And I think the way to understand"},{"startTime":1753.95,"endTime":1757.5,"body":"that is this presumption."},{"startTime":1757.5,"endTime":1760.46,"body":"Again, a woman is carer"},{"startTime":1757.5,"endTime":1760.46,"body":"and the loss of the woman"},{"startTime":1760.46,"endTime":1761.48,"body":"is more problematic."},{"startTime":1761.48,"endTime":1763.58,"body":"The presumption is, there will be a carer"},{"startTime":1763.58,"endTime":1766.177,"body":"throughout the child's life,"},{"startTime":1763.58,"endTime":1766.177,"body":"and it will be the woman."},{"startTime":1766.177,"endTime":1768.24,"body":"The man might be the as"},{"startTime":1766.177,"endTime":1768.24,"body":"well, that's fantastic."},{"startTime":1768.24,"endTime":1770.21,"body":"And it feeds into these wider ideas"},{"startTime":1770.21,"endTime":1772.42,"body":"of the man babysitting his own children."},{"startTime":1772.42,"endTime":1774.62,"body":"I saw a hashtag the other"},{"startTime":1772.42,"endTime":1774.62,"body":"day twist where someone said,"},{"startTime":1774.62,"endTime":1775.62,"body":"they're his kids too."},{"startTime":1775.62,"endTime":1777.92,"body":"It's like, but actually"},{"startTime":1775.62,"endTime":1777.92,"body":"we see lots of assumptions"},{"startTime":1777.92,"endTime":1779.37,"body":"about women are the dominant carer."},{"startTime":1779.37,"endTime":1781.01,"body":"And it feeds into all of these things."},{"startTime":1781.01,"endTime":1783.78,"body":"And it's feeding in here"},{"startTime":1781.01,"endTime":1783.78,"body":"that the loss of a mother"},{"startTime":1783.78,"endTime":1788.31,"body":"is particularly problematic,"},{"startTime":1783.78,"endTime":1788.31,"body":"but when you break it down,"},{"startTime":1788.31,"endTime":1792.73,"body":"actually, life expectancy for"},{"startTime":1788.31,"endTime":1792.73,"body":"women is over 80 these days."},{"startTime":1792.73,"endTime":1794.883,"body":"So even if she postpones to 50,"},{"startTime":1796.057,"endTime":1796.89,"body":"chances for her producing an orphan"},{"startTime":1796.89,"endTime":1798.06,"body":"are not actually that high."},{"startTime":1798.06,"endTime":1801.25,"body":"So for one thing it's"},{"startTime":1798.06,"endTime":1801.25,"body":"factually not really true"},{"startTime":1801.25,"endTime":1802.45,"body":"is one thing."},{"startTime":1802.45,"endTime":1804.49,"body":"It's also not true that all younger women"},{"startTime":1806.51,"endTime":1807.833,"body":"are going to outlive all old women."},{"startTime":1807.833,"endTime":1808.832,"body":"So you can't predict that"},{"startTime":1807.833,"endTime":1808.832,"body":"this is going to happen."},{"startTime":1808.832,"endTime":1811.01,"body":"So it's not particularly"},{"startTime":1808.832,"endTime":1811.01,"body":"good grounding there."},{"startTime":1811.01,"endTime":1813.35,"body":"And also there are many good things"},{"startTime":1814.311,"endTime":1815.76,"body":"about women having their babies later."},{"startTime":1815.76,"endTime":1818.293,"body":"So they may be financially more secure."},{"startTime":1819.36,"endTime":1821.07,"body":"They may have more financial resources"},{"startTime":1821.07,"endTime":1822.77,"body":"to take care of the child."},{"startTime":1822.77,"endTime":1825.89,"body":"There might be in a more"},{"startTime":1822.77,"endTime":1825.89,"body":"stable employment positions."},{"startTime":1825.89,"endTime":1827.64,"body":"They're more able to take time out."},{"startTime":1828.96,"endTime":1829.793,"body":"There's all sorts of things that actually"},{"startTime":1829.793,"endTime":1831.653,"body":"might be beneficial to the child."},{"startTime":1833.1,"endTime":1835.545,"body":"One thing people suggest"},{"startTime":1833.1,"endTime":1835.545,"body":"is actually, well,"},{"startTime":1835.545,"endTime":1837.4,"body":"the problem will be that actually,"},{"startTime":1837.4,"endTime":1839.86,"body":"then the parent will be dying, right?"},{"startTime":1839.86,"endTime":1841.592,"body":"So the child will be carer."},{"startTime":1841.592,"endTime":1844.12,"body":"So that seems kind of"},{"startTime":1841.592,"endTime":1844.12,"body":"like a good arguments."},{"startTime":1844.12,"endTime":1844.953,"body":"Like, well, no,"},{"startTime":1846.549,"endTime":1848.497,"body":"because the child will be in the position"},{"startTime":1848.497,"endTime":1849.71,"body":"of looking after their"},{"startTime":1848.497,"endTime":1849.71,"body":"elderly parent sooner."},{"startTime":1849.71,"endTime":1851.06,"body":"But when you actually break"},{"startTime":1849.71,"endTime":1851.06,"body":"that one down as well,"},{"startTime":1851.06,"endTime":1853.45,"body":"it isn't this problematic"},{"startTime":1851.06,"endTime":1853.45,"body":"because one of the things"},{"startTime":1853.45,"endTime":1856.41,"body":"that's good about it is"},{"startTime":1853.45,"endTime":1856.41,"body":"you have a bigger age gap."},{"startTime":1856.41,"endTime":1860.94,"body":"So let's say you have your"},{"startTime":1856.41,"endTime":1860.94,"body":"child when you are 50."},{"startTime":1860.94,"endTime":1863.91,"body":"And by the time the woman"},{"startTime":1860.94,"endTime":1863.91,"body":"is 80, she needs care."},{"startTime":1863.91,"endTime":1866.88,"body":"At that point, this child is 30."},{"startTime":1866.88,"endTime":1868.72,"body":"That is a big gap, but the child"},{"startTime":1868.72,"endTime":1871.42,"body":"is becoming a carer at a"},{"startTime":1868.72,"endTime":1871.42,"body":"time when they're younger"},{"startTime":1871.42,"endTime":1873.52,"body":"and more able and financially secure,"},{"startTime":1873.52,"endTime":1875.15,"body":"their own children might be young,"},{"startTime":1875.15,"endTime":1877.59,"body":"but they're quite capable."},{"startTime":1877.59,"endTime":1880.93,"body":"By contrast, if the woman had"},{"startTime":1877.59,"endTime":1880.93,"body":"her children, when she's 20,"},{"startTime":1880.93,"endTime":1883.92,"body":"by the time this woman is 80 child is 60."},{"startTime":1883.92,"endTime":1886.57,"body":"And what you actually have"},{"startTime":1883.92,"endTime":1886.57,"body":"is a much more difficult"},{"startTime":1886.57,"endTime":1889.76,"body":"potentially situation where"},{"startTime":1886.57,"endTime":1889.76,"body":"you have one older person"},{"startTime":1889.76,"endTime":1890.97,"body":"looking after another older person,"},{"startTime":1890.97,"endTime":1893.702,"body":"there might be all sorts of complexities"},{"startTime":1893.702,"endTime":1895.989,"body":"that not necessarily, but the"},{"startTime":1893.702,"endTime":1895.989,"body":"presumption that it is bad"},{"startTime":1895.989,"endTime":1900.333,"body":"to have this large gap is"},{"startTime":1895.989,"endTime":1900.333,"body":"just not true, I think."},{"startTime":1901.21,"endTime":1902.87,"body":"And it needs careful scrutiny"},{"startTime":1902.87,"endTime":1905.81,"body":"when you think about"},{"startTime":1902.87,"endTime":1905.81,"body":"those kinds of arguments,"},{"startTime":1905.81,"endTime":1907.37,"body":"we also know there's"},{"startTime":1905.81,"endTime":1907.37,"body":"lots of studies that show"},{"startTime":1907.37,"endTime":1910.25,"body":"that actually, there's"},{"startTime":1907.37,"endTime":1910.25,"body":"not really any differences"},{"startTime":1910.25,"endTime":1913.17,"body":"between parental stress physical capacity"},{"startTime":1913.17,"endTime":1915.94,"body":"to paired across ages 30, 40, and 50,"},{"startTime":1915.94,"endTime":1917.76,"body":"that you might think"},{"startTime":1915.94,"endTime":1917.76,"body":"that you're more tired,"},{"startTime":1917.76,"endTime":1919.17,"body":"but there's all sorts"},{"startTime":1917.76,"endTime":1919.17,"body":"of stresses that happen"},{"startTime":1919.17,"endTime":1920.26,"body":"at different points in your life."},{"startTime":1920.26,"endTime":1923.24,"body":"So it's not clear on the data"},{"startTime":1920.26,"endTime":1923.24,"body":"that it's necessarily worse"},{"startTime":1923.24,"endTime":1924.3,"body":"for children to have older parents,"},{"startTime":1924.3,"endTime":1926.4,"body":"there's benefits and there's dis benefits."},{"startTime":1928.08,"endTime":1932.09,"body":"So it seems to me that"},{"startTime":1928.08,"endTime":1932.09,"body":"most of the arguments there"},{"startTime":1932.09,"endTime":1935.03,"body":"are really quite poor, despite that though"},{"startTime":1935.03,"endTime":1935.863,"body":"there are still people."},{"startTime":1935.863,"endTime":1938.54,"body":"So Anora O'Neil is a good"},{"startTime":1935.863,"endTime":1938.54,"body":"example where she says, you know,"},{"startTime":1938.54,"endTime":1940.08,"body":"there's a difference"},{"startTime":1938.54,"endTime":1940.08,"body":"between the misfortune"},{"startTime":1940.08,"endTime":1941.74,"body":"of an early death of a young parent"},{"startTime":1941.74,"endTime":1943.72,"body":"and actively setting up a situation"},{"startTime":1943.72,"endTime":1944.99,"body":"in which the likelihood of death"},{"startTime":1944.99,"endTime":1947.25,"body":"while the child is young is increased."},{"startTime":1947.25,"endTime":1948.618,"body":"That might be true."},{"startTime":1948.618,"endTime":1950.14,"body":"But I think that argument"},{"startTime":1950.14,"endTime":1952.44,"body":"really doesn't hold"},{"startTime":1950.14,"endTime":1952.44,"body":"sway until very late on."},{"startTime":1952.44,"endTime":1954.61,"body":"So maybe that will hold sway for a woman"},{"startTime":1954.61,"endTime":1957.02,"body":"who is 65 having a child,"},{"startTime":1957.02,"endTime":1959.26,"body":"but the sorts of situations"},{"startTime":1957.02,"endTime":1959.26,"body":"we're mostly talking about"},{"startTime":1959.26,"endTime":1960.69,"body":"are not remotely close to that."},{"startTime":1960.69,"endTime":1962.49,"body":"So we don't even need"},{"startTime":1960.69,"endTime":1962.49,"body":"to have that argument,"},{"startTime":1962.49,"endTime":1964.09,"body":"problematic though it is,"},{"startTime":1964.09,"endTime":1966.44,"body":"because the point at which"},{"startTime":1964.09,"endTime":1966.44,"body":"people are using frozen eggs"},{"startTime":1966.44,"endTime":1968.51,"body":"are much like more like"},{"startTime":1966.44,"endTime":1968.51,"body":"to be in their forties,"},{"startTime":1968.51,"endTime":1970.991,"body":"mid to late forties, early forties."},{"startTime":1970.991,"endTime":1975.991,"body":"Another argument people"},{"startTime":1970.991,"endTime":1975.991,"body":"raise about whether"},{"startTime":1977.73,"endTime":1981.15,"body":"or not we shouldn't be, you"},{"startTime":1977.73,"endTime":1981.15,"body":"know, really supporting women"},{"startTime":1981.15,"endTime":1983.232,"body":"or at least promoting"},{"startTime":1981.15,"endTime":1983.232,"body":"egg freezing and pushing"},{"startTime":1983.232,"endTime":1987.847,"body":"having children later is the"},{"startTime":1983.232,"endTime":1987.847,"body":"idea that actually women face"},{"startTime":1987.847,"endTime":1988.95,"body":"physical risks, so I've"},{"startTime":1987.847,"endTime":1988.95,"body":"mentioned a couple of them."},{"startTime":1988.95,"endTime":1990.01,"body":"It's important to notice"},{"startTime":1990.01,"endTime":1992.93,"body":"that maternal mortality"},{"startTime":1990.01,"endTime":1992.93,"body":"increases with age."},{"startTime":1992.93,"endTime":1994.7,"body":"So there's a roughly four fold increase"},{"startTime":1994.7,"endTime":1996.72,"body":"in maternal mortality over the age of 40."},{"startTime":1996.72,"endTime":2000.81,"body":"So far more women will die"},{"startTime":1996.72,"endTime":2000.81,"body":"in pregnancy and childbirth."},{"startTime":2000.81,"endTime":2002.75,"body":"They face high rates"},{"startTime":2000.81,"endTime":2002.75,"body":"of ectopic pregnancies"},{"startTime":2002.75,"endTime":2005.26,"body":"and preeclampsia, chronic hypertension."},{"startTime":2005.26,"endTime":2006.56,"body":"And that's true."},{"startTime":2006.56,"endTime":2009.43,"body":"Pregnancy does get"},{"startTime":2006.56,"endTime":2009.43,"body":"riskier as you get older,"},{"startTime":2009.43,"endTime":2011.0,"body":"but that's one of the key"},{"startTime":2009.43,"endTime":2011.0,"body":"points where I think, well,"},{"startTime":2011.0,"endTime":2013.0,"body":"that's for women to choose for themselves."},{"startTime":2013.0,"endTime":2015.02,"body":"That's really not anybody else's business."},{"startTime":2015.02,"endTime":2017.77,"body":"As long as women are alive to those risks,"},{"startTime":2017.77,"endTime":2019.26,"body":"then they aught to their"},{"startTime":2017.77,"endTime":2019.26,"body":"own autonomous decisions"},{"startTime":2019.26,"endTime":2020.173,"body":"of about them."},{"startTime":2021.81,"endTime":2024.11,"body":"It is also the case that there are risks"},{"startTime":2024.11,"endTime":2026.594,"body":"from egg collection, they're very low,"},{"startTime":2026.594,"endTime":2027.93,"body":"but they exist and women"},{"startTime":2026.594,"endTime":2027.93,"body":"need to be aware of them."},{"startTime":2027.93,"endTime":2030.08,"body":"But again, it's their decision,"},{"startTime":2030.08,"endTime":2032.92,"body":"but there are risks of"},{"startTime":2030.08,"endTime":2032.92,"body":"ovarian hyper stimulation,"},{"startTime":2032.92,"endTime":2037.097,"body":"which sometimes requires"},{"startTime":2032.92,"endTime":2037.097,"body":"hospital admission,"},{"startTime":2037.097,"endTime":2038.146,"body":"incredibly rarely,"},{"startTime":2038.146,"endTime":2039.02,"body":"but it does happen, does"},{"startTime":2038.146,"endTime":2039.02,"body":"cause death as well."},{"startTime":2039.02,"endTime":2041.08,"body":"So that's another risk on the table"},{"startTime":2041.08,"endTime":2042.13,"body":"and certainly they exist."},{"startTime":2042.13,"endTime":2044.22,"body":"But the key response that"},{"startTime":2042.13,"endTime":2044.22,"body":"I think is information,"},{"startTime":2044.22,"endTime":2047.313,"body":"as opposed to resistance"},{"startTime":2044.22,"endTime":2047.313,"body":"to this as a practice,"},{"startTime":2048.51,"endTime":2050.92,"body":"some people have suggested"},{"startTime":2048.51,"endTime":2050.92,"body":"that egg freezing"},{"startTime":2050.92,"endTime":2053.24,"body":"actually might have societal harms."},{"startTime":2053.24,"endTime":2056.07,"body":"So an example of this would"},{"startTime":2053.24,"endTime":2056.07,"body":"be JJosephine Quintavalle."},{"startTime":2056.07,"endTime":2059.29,"body":"And she says, well actually,"},{"startTime":2056.07,"endTime":2059.29,"body":"delaying motherhood"},{"startTime":2059.29,"endTime":2060.58,"body":"if it became routine,"},{"startTime":2060.58,"endTime":2062.39,"body":"she says the structure of family support"},{"startTime":2062.39,"endTime":2064.2,"body":"in society would change."},{"startTime":2064.2,"endTime":2065.93,"body":"She says to, so to quote,"},{"startTime":2065.93,"endTime":2068.808,"body":"to imagine that IVF can be an alternative"},{"startTime":2068.808,"endTime":2070.84,"body":"to natural reproduction for"},{"startTime":2068.808,"endTime":2070.84,"body":"healthy women is an absurdity."},{"startTime":2070.84,"endTime":2072.26,"body":"The chances of children"},{"startTime":2070.84,"endTime":2072.26,"body":"having grandparents"},{"startTime":2072.26,"endTime":2073.35,"body":"becomes ever more remote,"},{"startTime":2073.35,"endTime":2075.61,"body":"this will undermine the"},{"startTime":2073.35,"endTime":2075.61,"body":"whole structure of society."},{"startTime":2075.61,"endTime":2077.13,"body":"Well, I think for a lot of"},{"startTime":2075.61,"endTime":2077.13,"body":"the reasons I've raised,"},{"startTime":2077.13,"endTime":2079.46,"body":"that's probably not true."},{"startTime":2079.46,"endTime":2081.5,"body":"It isn't likely, not everybody wants"},{"startTime":2081.5,"endTime":2082.51,"body":"to have their children later."},{"startTime":2082.51,"endTime":2084.57,"body":"We clearly see a whole range of ages"},{"startTime":2084.57,"endTime":2086.98,"body":"at which women want to"},{"startTime":2084.57,"endTime":2086.98,"body":"start their families."},{"startTime":2086.98,"endTime":2090.51,"body":"And the idea that it would"},{"startTime":2086.98,"endTime":2090.51,"body":"causes widescale social collapses"},{"startTime":2090.51,"endTime":2092.523,"body":"is not very convincing at all."},{"startTime":2094.07,"endTime":2097.47,"body":"One reason that I have"},{"startTime":2094.07,"endTime":2097.47,"body":"explored in the past in a paper"},{"startTime":2097.47,"endTime":2100.13,"body":"of mine a while ago with Julian Savulescu"},{"startTime":2100.13,"endTime":2103.284,"body":"was the idea of whether or"},{"startTime":2100.13,"endTime":2103.284,"body":"not they were social equality"},{"startTime":2103.284,"endTime":2104.42,"body":"and justice concerns about egg freezing"},{"startTime":2104.42,"endTime":2106.5,"body":"and particularly whether"},{"startTime":2104.42,"endTime":2106.5,"body":"or not we would fund"},{"startTime":2106.5,"endTime":2108.81,"body":"egg freezing on the NHS."},{"startTime":2108.81,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"And that question that's"},{"startTime":2108.81,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"worth thinking about."},{"startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2113.754,"body":"And that's something"},{"startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2113.754,"body":"that Matt Hancock raised"},{"startTime":2113.754,"endTime":2114.785,"body":"a couple of years ago,"},{"startTime":2114.785,"endTime":2116.039,"body":"this suggestion that perhaps the NHS"},{"startTime":2116.039,"endTime":2118.4,"body":"would pay for egg freezing"},{"startTime":2116.039,"endTime":2118.4,"body":"for social reasons."},{"startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2120.811,"body":"With that, the idea is that,"},{"startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2120.811,"body":"well only certain people"},{"startTime":2120.811,"endTime":2124.333,"body":"will be a able to pay for"},{"startTime":2120.811,"endTime":2124.333,"body":"egg freezing, it's expensive."},{"startTime":2125.388,"endTime":2127.82,"body":"And so whether or not this"},{"startTime":2125.388,"endTime":2127.82,"body":"means that it is something"},{"startTime":2127.82,"endTime":2129.907,"body":"that we should be"},{"startTime":2127.82,"endTime":2129.907,"body":"supporting people to have."},{"startTime":2129.907,"endTime":2132.52,"body":"And the idea is that if only"},{"startTime":2129.907,"endTime":2132.52,"body":"wealthier people can do this,"},{"startTime":2132.52,"endTime":2135.74,"body":"only wealthy women can put"},{"startTime":2132.52,"endTime":2135.74,"body":"off their childbearing,"},{"startTime":2135.74,"endTime":2137.47,"body":"then it will increase inequities"},{"startTime":2137.47,"endTime":2140.03,"body":"that are already present in society."},{"startTime":2140.03,"endTime":2140.98,"body":"Now we might say, well look,"},{"startTime":2140.98,"endTime":2142.83,"body":"that's just something"},{"startTime":2140.98,"endTime":2142.83,"body":"that already happens,"},{"startTime":2142.83,"endTime":2143.86,"body":"but you might think that actually,"},{"startTime":2143.86,"endTime":2145.75,"body":"if this is a sufficiently severe problem,"},{"startTime":2145.75,"endTime":2149.85,"body":"that that makes the case for"},{"startTime":2145.75,"endTime":2149.85,"body":"it being funded or supported."},{"startTime":2149.85,"endTime":2152.23,"body":"But there, we would have"},{"startTime":2149.85,"endTime":2152.23,"body":"to unpack that argument"},{"startTime":2152.23,"endTime":2153.64,"body":"about whether this is an assessed,"},{"startTime":2153.64,"endTime":2155.6,"body":"we've had that debate"},{"startTime":2153.64,"endTime":2155.6,"body":"about IVF and obviously"},{"startTime":2155.6,"endTime":2157.13,"body":"the NHS funds it."},{"startTime":2157.13,"endTime":2159.15,"body":"I don't intend to"},{"startTime":2157.13,"endTime":2159.15,"body":"explore it in detail now,"},{"startTime":2159.15,"endTime":2161.069,"body":"but it's certainly something"},{"startTime":2161.069,"endTime":2163.193,"body":"that people raise as a potential issue."},{"startTime":2165.48,"endTime":2166.88,"body":"The second to last one I want to look at,"},{"startTime":2166.88,"endTime":2168.17,"body":"and then I'm going to"},{"startTime":2166.88,"endTime":2168.17,"body":"give quite a lot of time"},{"startTime":2168.17,"endTime":2170.39,"body":"to decide false security."},{"startTime":2170.39,"endTime":2173.08,"body":"Is this idea that egg freezing will lead"},{"startTime":2173.08,"endTime":2175.24,"body":"to an increase in the"},{"startTime":2173.08,"endTime":2175.24,"body":"alienation of gametes."},{"startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2177.19,"body":"So this is an argument"},{"startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2177.19,"body":"John Robertson made,"},{"startTime":2177.19,"endTime":2180.42,"body":"and he talks about how well if"},{"startTime":2177.19,"endTime":2180.42,"body":"women can freeze their eggs,"},{"startTime":2180.42,"endTime":2181.63,"body":"one of the impacts of this,"},{"startTime":2181.63,"endTime":2183.67,"body":"certainly in the US where he's writing"},{"startTime":2183.67,"endTime":2185.728,"body":"is that they can give them away."},{"startTime":2185.728,"endTime":2187.67,"body":"They can donate them"},{"startTime":2185.728,"endTime":2187.67,"body":"and they can sell them."},{"startTime":2187.67,"endTime":2188.77,"body":"And he says, essentially,"},{"startTime":2188.77,"endTime":2191.253,"body":"they can use their gametes"},{"startTime":2188.77,"endTime":2191.253,"body":"like private property."},{"startTime":2192.14,"endTime":2196.49,"body":"And what he suggests is at this"},{"startTime":2192.14,"endTime":2196.49,"body":"point, is that it will mean"},{"startTime":2196.49,"endTime":2199.05,"body":"that the bond between"},{"startTime":2196.49,"endTime":2199.05,"body":"women and their gametes"},{"startTime":2199.05,"endTime":2200.01,"body":"is somehow broken."},{"startTime":2200.01,"endTime":2202.39,"body":"They become producers and consumers"},{"startTime":2202.39,"endTime":2204.15,"body":"of their body's reproductive inputs."},{"startTime":2204.15,"endTime":2206.83,"body":"And this creates"},{"startTime":2204.15,"endTime":2206.83,"body":"commodification and distancing"},{"startTime":2206.83,"endTime":2209.053,"body":"and seemingly harms to women."},{"startTime":2210.37,"endTime":2211.54,"body":"Now, whether that's true or not."},{"startTime":2211.54,"endTime":2213.91,"body":"And whether that's a problem,"},{"startTime":2211.54,"endTime":2213.91,"body":"I'll come back to that"},{"startTime":2213.91,"endTime":2216.93,"body":"when we talk about sales"},{"startTime":2213.91,"endTime":2216.93,"body":"of eggs as well briefly."},{"startTime":2216.93,"endTime":2219.13,"body":"But one thing I think to think about that"},{"startTime":2219.13,"endTime":2221.74,"body":"is doesn't seem to me to be an argument"},{"startTime":2221.74,"endTime":2223.33,"body":"that's raised about men and their sperm."},{"startTime":2223.33,"endTime":2226.42,"body":"So again, we see this very gendered idea"},{"startTime":2226.42,"endTime":2228.15,"body":"that women will be upset about this"},{"startTime":2228.15,"endTime":2230.458,"body":"in a way that men will not."},{"startTime":2230.458,"endTime":2231.291,"body":"And when I look at egg freezing,"},{"startTime":2231.291,"endTime":2233.6,"body":"I'll revisit this and talk about it there,"},{"startTime":2233.6,"endTime":2234.8,"body":"but just bear in mind,"},{"startTime":2234.8,"endTime":2236.447,"body":"can you imagine anybody"},{"startTime":2234.8,"endTime":2236.447,"body":"saying that about men"},{"startTime":2236.447,"endTime":2237.28,"body":"and their sperm,"},{"startTime":2238.18,"endTime":2240.38,"body":"doesn't tend to be the case."},{"startTime":2240.38,"endTime":2242.64,"body":"So the big focus of people's concerns"},{"startTime":2242.64,"endTime":2245.41,"body":"when they're, worrying about"},{"startTime":2242.64,"endTime":2245.41,"body":"women freezing their eggs,"},{"startTime":2245.41,"endTime":2247.0,"body":"is the idea that it will give them"},{"startTime":2247.0,"endTime":2248.563,"body":"a false sense of security."},{"startTime":2250.38,"endTime":2253.18,"body":"Now, I think we can break"},{"startTime":2250.38,"endTime":2253.18,"body":"that down into two elements."},{"startTime":2253.18,"endTime":2255.56,"body":"One is the idea that"},{"startTime":2253.18,"endTime":2255.56,"body":"it will encourage women"},{"startTime":2255.56,"endTime":2259.1,"body":"to be complacent about"},{"startTime":2255.56,"endTime":2259.1,"body":"their declining fertility"},{"startTime":2259.1,"endTime":2261.57,"body":"and the other dimension to"},{"startTime":2259.1,"endTime":2261.57,"body":"it is it will encourage women"},{"startTime":2261.57,"endTime":2264.8,"body":"to pay for an expensive"},{"startTime":2261.57,"endTime":2264.8,"body":"but ineffective service."},{"startTime":2264.8,"endTime":2266.65,"body":"So there are two strands to it."},{"startTime":2266.65,"endTime":2268.93,"body":"They'll put it off because"},{"startTime":2266.65,"endTime":2268.93,"body":"they'll be complacent"},{"startTime":2268.93,"endTime":2271.77,"body":"and they'll pay for this"},{"startTime":2268.93,"endTime":2271.77,"body":"service that won't work."},{"startTime":2271.77,"endTime":2273.12,"body":"And they operate together."},{"startTime":2273.12,"endTime":2275.84,"body":"So they're intertwined and effectively,"},{"startTime":2275.84,"endTime":2277.97,"body":"it means they'll buy an insurers policy"},{"startTime":2277.97,"endTime":2279.61,"body":"that's expensive and doesn't pay out,"},{"startTime":2279.61,"endTime":2282.12,"body":"and then they will pay the price of that."},{"startTime":2282.12,"endTime":2282.953,"body":"And they will do."},{"startTime":2282.953,"endTime":2285.38,"body":"But the really key part"},{"startTime":2282.953,"endTime":2285.38,"body":"of this is this idea"},{"startTime":2285.38,"endTime":2288.22,"body":"that it will be a false sense of security."},{"startTime":2288.22,"endTime":2290.02,"body":"And I want to unpack that quite a bit."},{"startTime":2291.81,"endTime":2294.4,"body":"So we see lots of statements about this."},{"startTime":2294.4,"endTime":2296.28,"body":"This is Heidi and she's saying, look,"},{"startTime":2296.28,"endTime":2298.48,"body":"it's often misleadingly portrayed"},{"startTime":2298.48,"endTime":2301.51,"body":"as an insurance policy"},{"startTime":2298.48,"endTime":2301.51,"body":"that we see this is a lot."},{"startTime":2301.51,"endTime":2302.62,"body":"I like the fact that she says,"},{"startTime":2302.62,"endTime":2304.02,"body":"rather than an insurance policy,"},{"startTime":2304.02,"endTime":2305.92,"body":"women are instead buying lottery tickets,"},{"startTime":2305.92,"endTime":2307.08,"body":"is a different way to think about it."},{"startTime":2307.08,"endTime":2308.89,"body":"And if they buy a lot of tickets,"},{"startTime":2308.89,"endTime":2311.58,"body":"they're able to bank a large"},{"startTime":2308.89,"endTime":2311.58,"body":"number of good quality eggs."},{"startTime":2311.58,"endTime":2313.96,"body":"They might have a reasonable"},{"startTime":2311.58,"endTime":2313.96,"body":"chance to success,"},{"startTime":2313.96,"endTime":2316.14,"body":"but uncertainty is a fundamental"},{"startTime":2313.96,"endTime":2316.14,"body":"feature of the system."},{"startTime":2316.14,"endTime":2318.72,"body":"So she's kind of pulling"},{"startTime":2316.14,"endTime":2318.72,"body":"apart some parts of it,"},{"startTime":2318.72,"endTime":2319.553,"body":"but she's right,"},{"startTime":2319.553,"endTime":2323.27,"body":"it is very often referred"},{"startTime":2319.553,"endTime":2323.27,"body":"to as an insurance policy."},{"startTime":2323.27,"endTime":2324.47,"body":"And I think that's a misnomer"},{"startTime":2324.47,"endTime":2326.15,"body":"both in the way women think about it."},{"startTime":2326.15,"endTime":2328.97,"body":"And of course in the"},{"startTime":2326.15,"endTime":2328.97,"body":"reality of what it can do."},{"startTime":2328.97,"endTime":2330.89,"body":"Now, the Royal College of Obstetrics"},{"startTime":2330.89,"endTime":2333.41,"body":"and Gynecology has very similar concerns."},{"startTime":2333.41,"endTime":2336.65,"body":"They say what their concern is."},{"startTime":2336.65,"endTime":2339.02,"body":"And this is part of this sort of falseness"},{"startTime":2339.02,"endTime":2341.75,"body":"is they say, yes, elective egg freezing"},{"startTime":2341.75,"endTime":2343.85,"body":"provides women with an"},{"startTime":2341.75,"endTime":2343.85,"body":"opportunity to take action"},{"startTime":2343.85,"endTime":2345.82,"body":"to address the drop in their fertility."},{"startTime":2345.82,"endTime":2347.7,"body":"But at the moment,"},{"startTime":2345.82,"endTime":2347.7,"body":"women who are doing this"},{"startTime":2347.7,"endTime":2348.94,"body":"are already in their later thirties"},{"startTime":2348.94,"endTime":2350.76,"body":"when success rates are limited."},{"startTime":2350.76,"endTime":2353.063,"body":"So that's a sort of bear that in mind."},{"startTime":2354.15,"endTime":2356.42,"body":"But what I want you to see"},{"startTime":2354.15,"endTime":2356.42,"body":"about this whole notion"},{"startTime":2356.42,"endTime":2358.65,"body":"of it being a false sense of security"},{"startTime":2358.65,"endTime":2359.89,"body":"is the idea that what it means"},{"startTime":2359.89,"endTime":2362.86,"body":"is that women won't get what they expect."},{"startTime":2362.86,"endTime":2364.67,"body":"They believe they're getting security."},{"startTime":2364.67,"endTime":2366.67,"body":"And in fact, this is a losery."},{"startTime":2366.67,"endTime":2370.59,"body":"And so this in effect implies"},{"startTime":2366.67,"endTime":2370.59,"body":"that they are mistaken"},{"startTime":2370.59,"endTime":2372.05,"body":"or they misunderstand things,"},{"startTime":2372.05,"endTime":2373.4,"body":"or they don't have the capacity"},{"startTime":2373.4,"endTime":2375.61,"body":"to understand the information."},{"startTime":2375.61,"endTime":2377.95,"body":"So when this is raised, of course,"},{"startTime":2377.95,"endTime":2380.69,"body":"we know that women ought to"},{"startTime":2377.95,"endTime":2380.69,"body":"freeze when they're younger,"},{"startTime":2380.69,"endTime":2383.83,"body":"that doesn't necessarily mean"},{"startTime":2380.69,"endTime":2383.83,"body":"that their beliefs are false"},{"startTime":2383.83,"endTime":2386.03,"body":"or their sense of"},{"startTime":2383.83,"endTime":2386.03,"body":"security is false however,"},{"startTime":2387.43,"endTime":2389.9,"body":"but regardless, I'll show"},{"startTime":2387.43,"endTime":2389.9,"body":"you what I think is probably"},{"startTime":2389.9,"endTime":2392.34,"body":"the high point of this kind of false sense"},{"startTime":2392.34,"endTime":2394.024,"body":"of security argument."},{"startTime":2394.024,"endTime":2395.26,"body":"And again, it comes from John Robinson."},{"startTime":2395.26,"endTime":2396.89,"body":"And so what he says is"},{"startTime":2396.89,"endTime":2400.19,"body":"that women will have an optimism bias,"},{"startTime":2400.19,"endTime":2401.11,"body":"and this is how he explains it."},{"startTime":2401.11,"endTime":2404.33,"body":"He says, because of this"},{"startTime":2401.11,"endTime":2404.33,"body":"optimism bias of younger women,"},{"startTime":2404.33,"endTime":2405.96,"body":"those in their twenties, he says,"},{"startTime":2405.96,"endTime":2408.83,"body":"what they might do is they might risk"},{"startTime":2408.83,"endTime":2411.69,"body":"their future infertility,"},{"startTime":2408.83,"endTime":2411.69,"body":"seems quite distant to them."},{"startTime":2411.69,"endTime":2414.58,"body":"So they say to themselves,"},{"startTime":2411.69,"endTime":2414.58,"body":"he says, I'll find a man,"},{"startTime":2414.58,"endTime":2416.757,"body":"I'll settle down in the next few years."},{"startTime":2416.757,"endTime":2420.19,"body":"And so why undergo the intrusion"},{"startTime":2416.757,"endTime":2420.19,"body":"of cost of egg freezing now"},{"startTime":2420.19,"endTime":2422.42,"body":"only the most risk averse or those"},{"startTime":2422.42,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"who have a yin for the"},{"startTime":2422.42,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"latest technological fix"},{"startTime":2425.83,"endTime":2427.17,"body":"and will be willing to take the hormones"},{"startTime":2427.17,"endTime":2428.7,"body":"and pay out the cash for egg insurance"},{"startTime":2428.7,"endTime":2430.68,"body":"that they may never need to cash in."},{"startTime":2430.68,"endTime":2432.43,"body":"So that's the first"},{"startTime":2430.68,"endTime":2432.43,"body":"part of what he suggests"},{"startTime":2432.43,"endTime":2435.44,"body":"is that actually the women"},{"startTime":2432.43,"endTime":2435.44,"body":"who should be freezing,"},{"startTime":2435.44,"endTime":2437.06,"body":"won't be doing it."},{"startTime":2437.06,"endTime":2439.87,"body":"And then he says, but as they"},{"startTime":2437.06,"endTime":2439.87,"body":"reach their late thirties,"},{"startTime":2439.87,"endTime":2442.25,"body":"their perspective may"},{"startTime":2439.87,"endTime":2442.25,"body":"start to shift, he says,"},{"startTime":2442.25,"endTime":2444.55,"body":"leading them to take a"},{"startTime":2442.25,"endTime":2444.55,"body":"cold look at the facts,"},{"startTime":2444.55,"endTime":2446.68,"body":"which may lead them to"},{"startTime":2444.55,"endTime":2446.68,"body":"stock the egg freezer."},{"startTime":2446.68,"endTime":2448.32,"body":"So he's saying that"},{"startTime":2446.68,"endTime":2448.32,"body":"women in their twenties,"},{"startTime":2448.32,"endTime":2449.869,"body":"not thinking"},{"startTime":2449.869,"endTime":2451.01,"body":"about it, it's not until"},{"startTime":2449.869,"endTime":2451.01,"body":"they start to get nervous"},{"startTime":2451.01,"endTime":2453.35,"body":"in their late thirties they"},{"startTime":2451.01,"endTime":2453.35,"body":"start thinking about it."},{"startTime":2453.35,"endTime":2455.55,"body":"Now that is a bit true in"},{"startTime":2453.35,"endTime":2455.55,"body":"terms of some of the data,"},{"startTime":2455.55,"endTime":2458.008,"body":"but it's far from the whole picture,"},{"startTime":2458.008,"endTime":2461.1,"body":"but his point is that it won't"},{"startTime":2458.008,"endTime":2461.1,"body":"be until their late thirties"},{"startTime":2461.1,"endTime":2463.647,"body":"when they're starting to"},{"startTime":2461.1,"endTime":2463.647,"body":"have anxiety and so on,"},{"startTime":2463.647,"endTime":2464.52,"body":"that they'll do anything about it."},{"startTime":2464.52,"endTime":2466.6,"body":"And then he says, well,"},{"startTime":2464.52,"endTime":2466.6,"body":"the eggs they freeze"},{"startTime":2466.6,"endTime":2469.27,"body":"may not give them the"},{"startTime":2466.6,"endTime":2469.27,"body":"fertility they hope for"},{"startTime":2469.27,"endTime":2471.01,"body":"because of the state"},{"startTime":2469.27,"endTime":2471.01,"body":"their eggs are in now."},{"startTime":2471.01,"endTime":2473.97,"body":"So they will wrongly, leave it too late"},{"startTime":2473.97,"endTime":2475.67,"body":"and then freeze eggs that won't give them"},{"startTime":2475.67,"endTime":2478.02,"body":"the kind of insurance"},{"startTime":2475.67,"endTime":2478.02,"body":"they were hoping to have."},{"startTime":2479.5,"endTime":2481.78,"body":"Now I think that there are"},{"startTime":2479.5,"endTime":2481.78,"body":"two implicit assumptions"},{"startTime":2481.78,"endTime":2484.2,"body":"about women's approach"},{"startTime":2481.78,"endTime":2484.2,"body":"to egg freezing here."},{"startTime":2484.2,"endTime":2486.62,"body":"And one is that the vast"},{"startTime":2484.2,"endTime":2486.62,"body":"majority of women who freeze"},{"startTime":2486.62,"endTime":2488.45,"body":"will do so at a suboptimal time,"},{"startTime":2488.45,"endTime":2491.24,"body":"that they'll get it wrong is number one,"},{"startTime":2491.24,"endTime":2493.21,"body":"they'll leave it too late"},{"startTime":2491.24,"endTime":2493.21,"body":"and they'll waste their money"},{"startTime":2493.21,"endTime":2495.71,"body":"or have their ill-founded hopes dashed."},{"startTime":2495.71,"endTime":2498.72,"body":"They will essentially make a bad decision"},{"startTime":2498.72,"endTime":2500.51,"body":"about when to freeze"},{"startTime":2500.51,"endTime":2502.51,"body":"because they should have done it sooner."},{"startTime":2503.51,"endTime":2506.21,"body":"Now, I think actually we need to challenge"},{"startTime":2506.21,"endTime":2507.81,"body":"the implicit premise here,"},{"startTime":2507.81,"endTime":2509.23,"body":"because what it's suggesting is that women"},{"startTime":2509.23,"endTime":2511.3,"body":"can't actually take on"},{"startTime":2509.23,"endTime":2511.3,"body":"board the information"},{"startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2513.73,"body":"and they can't navigate"},{"startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2513.73,"body":"the risk benefit analysis"},{"startTime":2513.73,"endTime":2515.801,"body":"they're going to confront."},{"startTime":2515.801,"endTime":2518.51,"body":"The second assumption"},{"startTime":2515.801,"endTime":2518.51,"body":"here is that these women"},{"startTime":2518.51,"endTime":2521.07,"body":"will have a false sense of security."},{"startTime":2521.07,"endTime":2523.62,"body":"So what he means is that"},{"startTime":2521.07,"endTime":2523.62,"body":"they will miscalculate"},{"startTime":2523.62,"endTime":2527.2,"body":"the risks and benefits, and"},{"startTime":2523.62,"endTime":2527.2,"body":"they'll mistakenly rely too much"},{"startTime":2527.2,"endTime":2528.53,"body":"because they don't really appreciate"},{"startTime":2528.53,"endTime":2530.52,"body":"how low their chances are."},{"startTime":2530.52,"endTime":2532.34,"body":"And so what they'll do"},{"startTime":2530.52,"endTime":2532.34,"body":"is they'll push back"},{"startTime":2532.34,"endTime":2534.55,"body":"having children, thinking it'll be fine,"},{"startTime":2534.55,"endTime":2536.48,"body":"and then they're mistaken and it won't be."},{"startTime":2536.48,"endTime":2538.73,"body":"And so that's I think"},{"startTime":2536.48,"endTime":2538.73,"body":"how he's framing women."},{"startTime":2540.26,"endTime":2543.44,"body":"And that's what I really want to object to"},{"startTime":2543.44,"endTime":2544.72,"body":"because I just simply don't think"},{"startTime":2544.72,"endTime":2546.46,"body":"that that's entirely accurate,"},{"startTime":2546.46,"endTime":2548.546,"body":"it's certain or accurate of many women."},{"startTime":2548.546,"endTime":2552.11,"body":"So let's look at what we do"},{"startTime":2548.546,"endTime":2552.11,"body":"know about what women understand"},{"startTime":2552.11,"endTime":2554.9,"body":"about their age related fertility decline."},{"startTime":2554.9,"endTime":2556.97,"body":"So actually there's"},{"startTime":2554.9,"endTime":2556.97,"body":"lots of data that shows,"},{"startTime":2556.97,"endTime":2559.11,"body":"this is a BPAS fertility survey."},{"startTime":2559.11,"endTime":2561.18,"body":"This is actually nine out of 10 women"},{"startTime":2561.18,"endTime":2563.97,"body":"were aware that the risk of"},{"startTime":2561.18,"endTime":2563.97,"body":"pregnancy increase with age"},{"startTime":2563.97,"endTime":2565.48,"body":"and the majority of this was a factor"},{"startTime":2565.48,"endTime":2567.86,"body":"of trying to have their child earlier."},{"startTime":2567.86,"endTime":2570.83,"body":"Many women were concerned"},{"startTime":2567.86,"endTime":2570.83,"body":"they were running out of time,"},{"startTime":2570.83,"endTime":2573.6,"body":"including a third of women, age 25 to 29."},{"startTime":2573.6,"endTime":2575.13,"body":"So actually quite lots of younger women"},{"startTime":2575.13,"endTime":2578.46,"body":"realizing that their"},{"startTime":2575.13,"endTime":2578.46,"body":"fertility was going to decline"},{"startTime":2578.46,"endTime":2581.21,"body":"and BPAS themselves"},{"startTime":2578.46,"endTime":2581.21,"body":"commented on their survey,"},{"startTime":2581.21,"endTime":2583.82,"body":"far from sleep walking into infertility,"},{"startTime":2583.82,"endTime":2587.12,"body":"women are aware their"},{"startTime":2583.82,"endTime":2587.12,"body":"reproductive window closes"},{"startTime":2587.12,"endTime":2589.26,"body":"and more than 60% feel"},{"startTime":2587.12,"endTime":2589.26,"body":"that there's pressure"},{"startTime":2589.26,"endTime":2591.49,"body":"on women now to have a baby"},{"startTime":2589.26,"endTime":2591.49,"body":"before they're ready to do so."},{"startTime":2591.49,"endTime":2594.62,"body":"So they're well aware"},{"startTime":2591.49,"endTime":2594.62,"body":"that this was happening."},{"startTime":2594.62,"endTime":2596.26,"body":"So the first thing I"},{"startTime":2594.62,"endTime":2596.26,"body":"think we should understand"},{"startTime":2596.26,"endTime":2597.963,"body":"is that it's not accurate"},{"startTime":2596.26,"endTime":2597.963,"body":"to say that women"},{"startTime":2597.963,"endTime":2600.29,"body":"have an optimism bias."},{"startTime":2600.29,"endTime":2601.67,"body":"In fact, most women I know"},{"startTime":2601.67,"endTime":2604.41,"body":"would say they're crucially aware of this"},{"startTime":2604.41,"endTime":2605.73,"body":"and why would they not be"},{"startTime":2605.73,"endTime":2607.51,"body":"when there are constant media messages"},{"startTime":2607.51,"endTime":2609.97,"body":"telling women the clock is ticking."},{"startTime":2609.97,"endTime":2613.67,"body":"They know they live with"},{"startTime":2609.97,"endTime":2613.67,"body":"that clock inside them"},{"startTime":2613.67,"endTime":2615.5,"body":"all the time, they're well aware,"},{"startTime":2615.5,"endTime":2618.113,"body":"and I find it kind of,"},{"startTime":2615.5,"endTime":2618.113,"body":"sorry, I get quite cross."},{"startTime":2619.052,"endTime":2620.23,"body":"I find it profoundly"},{"startTime":2619.052,"endTime":2620.23,"body":"patronizing to tell women"},{"startTime":2620.23,"endTime":2622.23,"body":"that they don't know"},{"startTime":2620.23,"endTime":2622.23,"body":"this when I really think"},{"startTime":2622.23,"endTime":2625.043,"body":"that they do and the data backs this up."},{"startTime":2626.89,"endTime":2630.2,"body":"So the next thing we"},{"startTime":2626.89,"endTime":2630.2,"body":"might wonder is the extent"},{"startTime":2630.2,"endTime":2632.8,"body":"to which women fully understand"},{"startTime":2632.8,"endTime":2634.85,"body":"whether or not technology will help them."},{"startTime":2635.87,"endTime":2639.36,"body":"Now, what we do see is that as women age,"},{"startTime":2639.36,"endTime":2642.15,"body":"their interest in the"},{"startTime":2639.36,"endTime":2642.15,"body":"technology does increase."},{"startTime":2642.15,"endTime":2644.88,"body":"But what's really interesting"},{"startTime":2642.15,"endTime":2644.88,"body":"is that there's survey data"},{"startTime":2644.88,"endTime":2647.28,"body":"that shows that women of"},{"startTime":2644.88,"endTime":2647.28,"body":"all ages will consider"},{"startTime":2647.28,"endTime":2650.33,"body":"having their eggs frozen,"},{"startTime":2647.28,"endTime":2650.33,"body":"it isn't just older women."},{"startTime":2650.33,"endTime":2652.46,"body":"So the fantastic Liminal"},{"startTime":2650.33,"endTime":2652.46,"body":"Space who produced"},{"startTime":2652.46,"endTime":2654.9,"body":"a really excellent"},{"startTime":2652.46,"endTime":2654.9,"body":"exhibition a few years ago"},{"startTime":2654.9,"endTime":2658.59,"body":"called Timeless, it's all"},{"startTime":2654.9,"endTime":2658.59,"body":"women putting off fertility,"},{"startTime":2658.59,"endTime":2661.28,"body":"putting off having"},{"startTime":2658.59,"endTime":2661.28,"body":"children and egg freezing."},{"startTime":2661.28,"endTime":2663.61,"body":"They surveyed over a thousand"},{"startTime":2661.28,"endTime":2663.61,"body":"women who came through"},{"startTime":2663.61,"endTime":2666.228,"body":"and they said, 11% of women of all ages"},{"startTime":2666.228,"endTime":2667.49,"body":"would consider having their eggs frozen."},{"startTime":2667.49,"endTime":2670.98,"body":"And among 18 to 24 year olds, 20% would."},{"startTime":2670.98,"endTime":2673.07,"body":"So actually the higher represented group"},{"startTime":2673.07,"endTime":2674.03,"body":"was the younger women."},{"startTime":2674.03,"endTime":2676.2,"body":"They were very live to this."},{"startTime":2676.2,"endTime":2677.79,"body":"And so I think findings of this kind"},{"startTime":2677.79,"endTime":2679.37,"body":"suggest at least that"},{"startTime":2677.79,"endTime":2679.37,"body":"women are considering"},{"startTime":2679.37,"endTime":2681.32,"body":"freezing their eggs relatively early on."},{"startTime":2681.32,"endTime":2684.293,"body":"They realize the benefits"},{"startTime":2681.32,"endTime":2684.293,"body":"and they realize the need."},{"startTime":2685.22,"endTime":2686.57,"body":"Now, related to this,"},{"startTime":2686.57,"endTime":2688.85,"body":"we could sort of flesh"},{"startTime":2686.57,"endTime":2688.85,"body":"this out a bit more,"},{"startTime":2688.85,"endTime":2691.07,"body":"certainly a lot to say here"},{"startTime":2688.85,"endTime":2691.07,"body":"and I'm mindful of the time."},{"startTime":2691.07,"endTime":2692.98,"body":"So I don't want to spend"},{"startTime":2691.07,"endTime":2692.98,"body":"too much time on this,"},{"startTime":2692.98,"endTime":2695.32,"body":"but whether or not women"},{"startTime":2692.98,"endTime":2695.32,"body":"realize that IVF generally"},{"startTime":2695.32,"endTime":2697.67,"body":"will help them because egg freezing"},{"startTime":2697.67,"endTime":2699.36,"body":"is quite a niche question to ask about."},{"startTime":2699.36,"endTime":2700.937,"body":"We have lots of data about IVF"},{"startTime":2700.937,"endTime":2702.563,"body":"and what women think about it."},{"startTime":2703.682,"endTime":2705.32,"body":"And so another BPAS survey"},{"startTime":2705.32,"endTime":2708.29,"body":"said that over a thousand women surveyed,"},{"startTime":2708.29,"endTime":2711.34,"body":"only 9% felt that the availability of IVF"},{"startTime":2711.34,"endTime":2713.35,"body":"made them less worried"},{"startTime":2711.34,"endTime":2713.35,"body":"about running out of time."},{"startTime":2713.35,"endTime":2716.19,"body":"So far from thinking that IVF"},{"startTime":2713.35,"endTime":2716.19,"body":"was going to be a panacea,"},{"startTime":2716.19,"endTime":2718.47,"body":"less than 10% thought IVF"},{"startTime":2716.19,"endTime":2718.47,"body":"would fix it for them."},{"startTime":2718.47,"endTime":2721.4,"body":"They were very live to the"},{"startTime":2718.47,"endTime":2721.4,"body":"fact that it might help,"},{"startTime":2721.4,"endTime":2724.423,"body":"but not that that it"},{"startTime":2721.4,"endTime":2724.423,"body":"would necessarily help."},{"startTime":2726.31,"endTime":2729.35,"body":"In another, there are,"},{"startTime":2726.31,"endTime":2729.35,"body":"however, to be fair,"},{"startTime":2729.35,"endTime":2731.75,"body":"there are also surveys"},{"startTime":2729.35,"endTime":2731.75,"body":"that show that some women"},{"startTime":2731.75,"endTime":2733.38,"body":"are unrealistically confident."},{"startTime":2733.38,"endTime":2735.34,"body":"So it isn't a one way picture."},{"startTime":2735.34,"endTime":2737.12,"body":"And this is the other thing"},{"startTime":2735.34,"endTime":2737.12,"body":"that's really important though,"},{"startTime":2737.12,"endTime":2739.01,"body":"is there isn't a blank"},{"startTime":2737.12,"endTime":2739.01,"body":"picture in either direction."},{"startTime":2739.01,"endTime":2740.21,"body":"It's not the case that all women"},{"startTime":2740.21,"endTime":2741.74,"body":"have a false sense of security."},{"startTime":2741.74,"endTime":2743.77,"body":"It's not the case that all"},{"startTime":2741.74,"endTime":2743.77,"body":"women have a really good"},{"startTime":2743.77,"endTime":2745.49,"body":"understanding of the"},{"startTime":2743.77,"endTime":2745.49,"body":"actual risk and benefit."},{"startTime":2745.49,"endTime":2748.65,"body":"It is a complex picture"},{"startTime":2745.49,"endTime":2748.65,"body":"and women as a group"},{"startTime":2748.65,"endTime":2751.77,"body":"have different views and"},{"startTime":2748.65,"endTime":2751.77,"body":"different levels of knowledge,"},{"startTime":2751.77,"endTime":2754.38,"body":"and certainly is true"},{"startTime":2751.77,"endTime":2754.38,"body":"that there are some women"},{"startTime":2754.38,"endTime":2756.041,"body":"and both of these studies here,"},{"startTime":2756.041,"endTime":2759.803,"body":"both suggest that some women"},{"startTime":2756.041,"endTime":2759.803,"body":"absolutely are over confident,"},{"startTime":2760.88,"endTime":2763.15,"body":"but what should we do in the face of that?"},{"startTime":2763.15,"endTime":2765.03,"body":"Does that mean that women"},{"startTime":2763.15,"endTime":2765.03,"body":"can't make their own decisions?"},{"startTime":2765.03,"endTime":2766.22,"body":"Does it mean they don't understand?"},{"startTime":2766.22,"endTime":2768.1,"body":"Does it mean they have a"},{"startTime":2766.22,"endTime":2768.1,"body":"false sense of security?"},{"startTime":2768.1,"endTime":2770.37,"body":"Sometimes, maybe that's true,"},{"startTime":2770.37,"endTime":2772.76,"body":"but these are all informational arguments,"},{"startTime":2772.76,"endTime":2774.43,"body":"their informational problems."},{"startTime":2774.43,"endTime":2776.5,"body":"And so the way to respond"},{"startTime":2774.43,"endTime":2776.5,"body":"to them is to think, well,"},{"startTime":2776.5,"endTime":2779.06,"body":"actually what these"},{"startTime":2776.5,"endTime":2779.06,"body":"women need is to be given"},{"startTime":2779.06,"endTime":2781.28,"body":"appropriate information"},{"startTime":2779.06,"endTime":2781.28,"body":"that they can understand"},{"startTime":2781.28,"endTime":2782.78,"body":"and allow them to think about it"},{"startTime":2782.78,"endTime":2784.64,"body":"and to weigh it and make"},{"startTime":2782.78,"endTime":2784.64,"body":"their own decisions."},{"startTime":2784.64,"endTime":2787.49,"body":"And then bear the consequences"},{"startTime":2784.64,"endTime":2787.49,"body":"of those, which is in fact,"},{"startTime":2787.49,"endTime":2789.62,"body":"what we do for people in"},{"startTime":2787.49,"endTime":2789.62,"body":"all sorts of other contexts,"},{"startTime":2789.62,"endTime":2792.33,"body":"we treat them as autonomous"},{"startTime":2789.62,"endTime":2792.33,"body":"citizens who are allowed to,"},{"startTime":2792.33,"endTime":2795.66,"body":"and are capable of making"},{"startTime":2792.33,"endTime":2795.66,"body":"their own decisions."},{"startTime":2795.66,"endTime":2797.75,"body":"Now, when we think about"},{"startTime":2795.66,"endTime":2797.75,"body":"how women are doing that,"},{"startTime":2797.75,"endTime":2799.36,"body":"the really key thing I think people"},{"startTime":2799.36,"endTime":2801.538,"body":"should be bearing in mind"},{"startTime":2801.538,"endTime":2803.137,"body":"is that women understand"},{"startTime":2801.538,"endTime":2803.137,"body":"the pressures on them."},{"startTime":2803.137,"endTime":2805.41,"body":"And so when they are"},{"startTime":2803.137,"endTime":2805.41,"body":"making these decisions"},{"startTime":2805.41,"endTime":2807.88,"body":"about putting off when they bear children,"},{"startTime":2807.88,"endTime":2810.58,"body":"they are doing so for what"},{"startTime":2807.88,"endTime":2810.58,"body":"for them are good reasons."},{"startTime":2810.58,"endTime":2811.49,"body":"We may not share them."},{"startTime":2811.49,"endTime":2814.27,"body":"We may not make the same"},{"startTime":2811.49,"endTime":2814.27,"body":"risk calculus as they might,"},{"startTime":2814.27,"endTime":2815.718,"body":"but we shouldn't assume"},{"startTime":2815.718,"endTime":2819.37,"body":"that they're doing it"},{"startTime":2815.718,"endTime":2819.37,"body":"irrationally or unreasonably."},{"startTime":2819.37,"endTime":2821.26,"body":"What we should assume is that they are,"},{"startTime":2821.26,"endTime":2822.19,"body":"almost all of the time,"},{"startTime":2822.19,"endTime":2823.73,"body":"going to balance those risks and benefits"},{"startTime":2823.73,"endTime":2825.912,"body":"because it's about"},{"startTime":2823.73,"endTime":2825.912,"body":"something they care about,"},{"startTime":2825.912,"endTime":2829.7,"body":"they care very much about it."},{"startTime":2829.7,"endTime":2831.39,"body":"But rather what we should"},{"startTime":2829.7,"endTime":2831.39,"body":"do is just make sure"},{"startTime":2831.39,"endTime":2832.4,"body":"that when they're doing that,"},{"startTime":2832.4,"endTime":2834.33,"body":"they're making that calculus on the basis"},{"startTime":2834.33,"endTime":2835.873,"body":"of accurate information."},{"startTime":2837.45,"endTime":2841.46,"body":"I think what's important also"},{"startTime":2837.45,"endTime":2841.46,"body":"to add into this is the idea"},{"startTime":2841.46,"endTime":2843.71,"body":"that when we add egg"},{"startTime":2841.46,"endTime":2843.71,"body":"freezing into the mix,"},{"startTime":2843.71,"endTime":2846.42,"body":"it doesn't really change the background"},{"startTime":2846.42,"endTime":2848.94,"body":"against which women are choosing."},{"startTime":2848.94,"endTime":2851.541,"body":"All it does is add an extra option."},{"startTime":2851.541,"endTime":2852.73,"body":"'Cause what's really"},{"startTime":2851.541,"endTime":2852.73,"body":"important is to remember"},{"startTime":2852.73,"endTime":2854.21,"body":"all the things I said at the beginning"},{"startTime":2854.21,"endTime":2857.27,"body":"is that what you are doing"},{"startTime":2854.21,"endTime":2857.27,"body":"here is you're just adding"},{"startTime":2857.27,"endTime":2859.04,"body":"an extra way to deal with the challenges"},{"startTime":2859.04,"endTime":2861.61,"body":"and the risks that women"},{"startTime":2859.04,"endTime":2861.61,"body":"already have to balance."},{"startTime":2861.61,"endTime":2863.58,"body":"So we're already balancing these things,"},{"startTime":2863.58,"endTime":2866.25,"body":"putting off education,"},{"startTime":2863.58,"endTime":2866.25,"body":"staying in their careers,"},{"startTime":2866.25,"endTime":2867.95,"body":"when will they commit to a relationship?"},{"startTime":2867.95,"endTime":2869.41,"body":"And so on, what's happening"},{"startTime":2869.41,"endTime":2873.7,"body":"is you were giving them a"},{"startTime":2869.41,"endTime":2873.7,"body":"small amount of extra ability"},{"startTime":2873.7,"endTime":2875.953,"body":"to slightly shift that calculus."},{"startTime":2877.22,"endTime":2880.24,"body":"And some of them will then use that option"},{"startTime":2880.24,"endTime":2881.9,"body":"to freeze and it won't"},{"startTime":2880.24,"endTime":2881.9,"body":"make any difference."},{"startTime":2881.9,"endTime":2883.05,"body":"They go on to have children naturally."},{"startTime":2883.05,"endTime":2883.883,"body":"They don't use them."},{"startTime":2883.883,"endTime":2885.8,"body":"And in fact, so far,"},{"startTime":2883.883,"endTime":2885.8,"body":"that's what's happened"},{"startTime":2885.8,"endTime":2887.11,"body":"in a lot of egg freezing cases."},{"startTime":2887.11,"endTime":2888.91,"body":"And it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2888.91,"endTime":2891.07,"body":"Some of them will then waste their money."},{"startTime":2891.07,"endTime":2893.04,"body":"Others will postpone for the same time"},{"startTime":2893.04,"endTime":2894.03,"body":"as they would've done anyway."},{"startTime":2894.03,"endTime":2895.43,"body":"And they still don't need the eggs."},{"startTime":2895.43,"endTime":2897.39,"body":"Didn't need it, that was fine."},{"startTime":2897.39,"endTime":2901.15,"body":"Some will postpone longer and"},{"startTime":2897.39,"endTime":2901.15,"body":"reliance and it'll work out"},{"startTime":2901.15,"endTime":2903.0,"body":"and they'll use the eggs"},{"startTime":2901.15,"endTime":2903.0,"body":"and will have done exactly"},{"startTime":2903.0,"endTime":2904.17,"body":"what they hoped it would do."},{"startTime":2904.17,"endTime":2907.317,"body":"And some will postpone longer"},{"startTime":2904.17,"endTime":2907.317,"body":"than they would've done"},{"startTime":2907.317,"endTime":2910.65,"body":"because they're relying"},{"startTime":2907.317,"endTime":2910.65,"body":"on these frozen eggs"},{"startTime":2910.65,"endTime":2911.483,"body":"as an insurance policy."},{"startTime":2911.483,"endTime":2912.59,"body":"And it won't pay out,"},{"startTime":2912.59,"endTime":2914.81,"body":"that of course is the"},{"startTime":2912.59,"endTime":2914.81,"body":"complex picture here."},{"startTime":2914.81,"endTime":2916.67,"body":"But the only thing that's important there"},{"startTime":2916.67,"endTime":2919.42,"body":"is they understand that"},{"startTime":2916.67,"endTime":2919.42,"body":"that's the picture."},{"startTime":2919.42,"endTime":2921.213,"body":"So the key thing that we need to focus on"},{"startTime":2921.213,"endTime":2923.823,"body":"is giving women the right"},{"startTime":2921.213,"endTime":2923.823,"body":"kind of information."},{"startTime":2924.9,"endTime":2926.45,"body":"Now, another thing that"},{"startTime":2924.9,"endTime":2926.45,"body":"I wanted to talk about"},{"startTime":2926.45,"endTime":2928.53,"body":"before I finish, 'cause I'm mindful"},{"startTime":2928.53,"endTime":2930.58,"body":"that I'm going to run out of"},{"startTime":2928.53,"endTime":2930.58,"body":"time and can that's going to come"},{"startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2933.419,"body":"and make me answer questions"},{"startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2933.419,"body":"instead of continuing"},{"startTime":2933.419,"endTime":2935.11,"body":"to tell you all my lovely"},{"startTime":2933.419,"endTime":2935.11,"body":"things that I want to tell you"},{"startTime":2935.11,"endTime":2937.88,"body":"is this question that this all leads to,"},{"startTime":2937.88,"endTime":2939.19,"body":"that I often think about is whether"},{"startTime":2939.19,"endTime":2941.51,"body":"or not egg freezing empowers women."},{"startTime":2941.51,"endTime":2943.772,"body":"Now, one of the arguments that it does,"},{"startTime":2943.772,"endTime":2945.61,"body":"is it gives them a full sense of security."},{"startTime":2945.61,"endTime":2948.47,"body":"But the other interesting"},{"startTime":2945.61,"endTime":2948.47,"body":"question that this raises"},{"startTime":2948.47,"endTime":2950.87,"body":"is whether or not giving women this choice"},{"startTime":2950.87,"endTime":2952.78,"body":"in giving women additional choices"},{"startTime":2952.78,"endTime":2954.83,"body":"is a good or bad thing for them."},{"startTime":2954.83,"endTime":2956.82,"body":"So it might often seem that giving women,"},{"startTime":2956.82,"endTime":2958.9,"body":"anybody having more"},{"startTime":2956.82,"endTime":2958.9,"body":"choices has more power,"},{"startTime":2958.9,"endTime":2960.88,"body":"more ability to do what they want."},{"startTime":2960.88,"endTime":2963.23,"body":"And a lot of the time that's true,"},{"startTime":2963.23,"endTime":2965.787,"body":"but it might be slightly"},{"startTime":2963.23,"endTime":2965.787,"body":"more complex in this context."},{"startTime":2965.787,"endTime":2968.22,"body":"And this is worth bearing in mind."},{"startTime":2968.22,"endTime":2970.33,"body":"Is it the case that"},{"startTime":2968.22,"endTime":2970.33,"body":"there will be situations"},{"startTime":2970.33,"endTime":2972.21,"body":"in which the opportunity to freeze"},{"startTime":2972.21,"endTime":2974.79,"body":"might actually transform"},{"startTime":2972.21,"endTime":2974.79,"body":"into an expectation"},{"startTime":2974.79,"endTime":2977.57,"body":"to freeze or a pressure to freeze?"},{"startTime":2977.57,"endTime":2979.18,"body":"Now, how would this work?"},{"startTime":2979.18,"endTime":2980.07,"body":"Well, it would work"},{"startTime":2980.07,"endTime":2982.28,"body":"if you are in a workplace context"},{"startTime":2982.28,"endTime":2983.29,"body":"where other women around you"},{"startTime":2983.29,"endTime":2985.69,"body":"are freezing and it becomes normalized,"},{"startTime":2985.69,"endTime":2986.58,"body":"standardized practice,"},{"startTime":2986.58,"endTime":2988.828,"body":"and everybody is pushing off the point"},{"startTime":2988.828,"endTime":2992.11,"body":"at which they step out of"},{"startTime":2988.828,"endTime":2992.11,"body":"the workplace to later,"},{"startTime":2992.11,"endTime":2994.56,"body":"your choice architecture"},{"startTime":2992.11,"endTime":2994.56,"body":"there is different then,"},{"startTime":2994.56,"endTime":2996.48,"body":"instead of just choosing"},{"startTime":2994.56,"endTime":2996.48,"body":"freely you are choosing"},{"startTime":2996.48,"endTime":2997.87,"body":"against a background of everybody else"},{"startTime":2997.87,"endTime":3000.313,"body":"is making a particular"},{"startTime":2997.87,"endTime":3000.313,"body":"choice and potentially,"},{"startTime":3001.163,"endTime":3003.58,"body":"you make a loss by not"},{"startTime":3001.163,"endTime":3003.58,"body":"making the same choice."},{"startTime":3003.58,"endTime":3005.3,"body":"They get ahead of you in the workplace."},{"startTime":3005.3,"endTime":3007.97,"body":"'Cause they put off having"},{"startTime":3005.3,"endTime":3007.97,"body":"their babies and you didn't,"},{"startTime":3007.97,"endTime":3010.637,"body":"that might be a way in"},{"startTime":3007.97,"endTime":3010.637,"body":"which women are disempowered"},{"startTime":3010.637,"endTime":3013.81,"body":"by having an additional"},{"startTime":3010.637,"endTime":3013.81,"body":"choice, that's quite possible."},{"startTime":3013.81,"endTime":3015.01,"body":"Or if they end up making choice"},{"startTime":3015.01,"endTime":3016.03,"body":"they wouldn't have wanted to do"},{"startTime":3016.03,"endTime":3017.742,"body":"because everybody else is doing it"},{"startTime":3017.742,"endTime":3018.81,"body":"and they feel like they ought to do it,"},{"startTime":3018.81,"endTime":3021.12,"body":"or if they don't do it,"},{"startTime":3018.81,"endTime":3021.12,"body":"they're resisting doing it."},{"startTime":3021.12,"endTime":3022.56,"body":"So it shifts."},{"startTime":3022.56,"endTime":3023.46,"body":"So this is something that philosopher"},{"startTime":3023.46,"endTime":3024.58,"body":"Simon Rippin talks about."},{"startTime":3024.58,"endTime":3027.23,"body":"He says that once you've got"},{"startTime":3024.58,"endTime":3027.23,"body":"an extra choice on the table,"},{"startTime":3027.23,"endTime":3028.99,"body":"when you don't take it previously,"},{"startTime":3028.99,"endTime":3030.76,"body":"you just didn't do it"},{"startTime":3028.99,"endTime":3030.76,"body":"because you couldn't,"},{"startTime":3030.76,"endTime":3032.67,"body":"now you're actively not doing it,"},{"startTime":3032.67,"endTime":3034.07,"body":"and how does that affect you?"},{"startTime":3034.07,"endTime":3036.43,"body":"That might have negative effects on women."},{"startTime":3036.43,"endTime":3037.52,"body":"These things are certainly things"},{"startTime":3037.52,"endTime":3039.333,"body":"that are worth thinking about,"},{"startTime":3039.333,"endTime":3042.1,"body":"whether they are sufficiently"},{"startTime":3039.333,"endTime":3042.1,"body":"strong to therefore"},{"startTime":3042.1,"endTime":3044.33,"body":"undermine whether we should"},{"startTime":3042.1,"endTime":3044.33,"body":"continue support egg freezing."},{"startTime":3044.33,"endTime":3045.74,"body":"I think they probably aren't."},{"startTime":3045.74,"endTime":3049.06,"body":"But I think it's to be"},{"startTime":3045.74,"endTime":3049.06,"body":"aware of when we think about"},{"startTime":3049.06,"endTime":3051.993,"body":"the way in which we frame"},{"startTime":3049.06,"endTime":3051.993,"body":"egg freezing as a choice."},{"startTime":3053.7,"endTime":3056.03,"body":"So should the law do anything?"},{"startTime":3056.03,"endTime":3059.13,"body":"I don't think there's a great"},{"startTime":3056.03,"endTime":3059.13,"body":"deal that the law needs to do."},{"startTime":3059.13,"endTime":3060.71,"body":"I think that one of the big shifts"},{"startTime":3060.71,"endTime":3064.33,"body":"that was needed has happened,"},{"startTime":3060.71,"endTime":3064.33,"body":"storage limits have extended."},{"startTime":3064.33,"endTime":3066.14,"body":"And this is a really good thing."},{"startTime":3066.14,"endTime":3068.59,"body":"We already know that the HFEA"},{"startTime":3068.59,"endTime":3070.9,"body":"has to require information provision."},{"startTime":3070.9,"endTime":3074.26,"body":"What I would say is that we"},{"startTime":3070.9,"endTime":3074.26,"body":"do need to take very good care"},{"startTime":3074.26,"endTime":3076.38,"body":"about the level of information provision."},{"startTime":3076.38,"endTime":3079.28,"body":"And I think it is quite hard"},{"startTime":3076.38,"endTime":3079.28,"body":"for women to get really good,"},{"startTime":3079.28,"endTime":3082.53,"body":"detailed information about"},{"startTime":3079.28,"endTime":3082.53,"body":"egg freezing success rates,"},{"startTime":3082.53,"endTime":3084.35,"body":"partly, and I say this as someone"},{"startTime":3084.35,"endTime":3086.052,"body":"who has spent quite a lot of time"},{"startTime":3086.052,"endTime":3087.135,"body":"trying to find this information."},{"startTime":3087.135,"endTime":3087.968,"body":"It is not easily accessible,"},{"startTime":3087.968,"endTime":3089.38,"body":"even for someone like me"},{"startTime":3087.968,"endTime":3089.38,"body":"who knows a lot about it."},{"startTime":3089.38,"endTime":3090.51,"body":"It's quite tough."},{"startTime":3090.51,"endTime":3092.33,"body":"I think to find lots"},{"startTime":3090.51,"endTime":3092.33,"body":"of detailed information"},{"startTime":3092.33,"endTime":3097.33,"body":"about your exact age and the"},{"startTime":3092.33,"endTime":3097.33,"body":"risks, the chances of success,"},{"startTime":3097.4,"endTime":3098.81,"body":"and certainly other women report to me"},{"startTime":3098.81,"endTime":3100.0,"body":"that they don't find it easy."},{"startTime":3100.0,"endTime":3101.57,"body":"It's not impossible, but"},{"startTime":3100.0,"endTime":3101.57,"body":"you have to work for it."},{"startTime":3101.57,"endTime":3103.173,"body":"So that could be improved."},{"startTime":3104.349,"endTime":3107.27,"body":"But in terms of the key problem"},{"startTime":3104.349,"endTime":3107.27,"body":"with storage limitation,"},{"startTime":3107.27,"endTime":3110.22,"body":"now that we know that that's"},{"startTime":3107.27,"endTime":3110.22,"body":"resolved, that's a good thing."},{"startTime":3110.22,"endTime":3111.43,"body":"So where does this leave us?"},{"startTime":3111.43,"endTime":3113.04,"body":"Well, it leaves me with the one question"},{"startTime":3113.04,"endTime":3115.786,"body":"that I want to raise at the end"},{"startTime":3113.04,"endTime":3115.786,"body":"to leave you thinking about,"},{"startTime":3115.786,"endTime":3117.77,"body":"because at this point,"},{"startTime":3117.77,"endTime":3119.538,"body":"egg freezing is allowed,"},{"startTime":3117.77,"endTime":3119.538,"body":"it's working well."},{"startTime":3119.538,"endTime":3122.597,"body":"We need to make sure women"},{"startTime":3119.538,"endTime":3122.597,"body":"know what the choices are,"},{"startTime":3122.597,"endTime":3124.67,"body":"but the question is, do"},{"startTime":3122.597,"endTime":3124.67,"body":"we take the next step?"},{"startTime":3124.67,"endTime":3126.4,"body":"So the step that is taken in the US"},{"startTime":3126.4,"endTime":3128.47,"body":"and the one that Robertson"},{"startTime":3126.4,"endTime":3128.47,"body":"is concerned about,"},{"startTime":3128.47,"endTime":3130.92,"body":"and do we move from simply allowing them"},{"startTime":3130.92,"endTime":3133.26,"body":"to store them and donate"},{"startTime":3130.92,"endTime":3133.26,"body":"them and to use them,"},{"startTime":3133.26,"endTime":3135.41,"body":"to allowing them to sell them."},{"startTime":3135.41,"endTime":3137.29,"body":"Now, why would we wonder about that?"},{"startTime":3137.29,"endTime":3139.63,"body":"Well, because elsewhere, you can do that."},{"startTime":3139.63,"endTime":3142.9,"body":"So this is from a US"},{"startTime":3139.63,"endTime":3142.9,"body":"webpage where they tell you"},{"startTime":3142.9,"endTime":3147.86,"body":"all about how much they"},{"startTime":3142.9,"endTime":3147.86,"body":"pay 8,000, $10,000 a cycle."},{"startTime":3147.86,"endTime":3150.82,"body":"It seems like relatively big business."},{"startTime":3150.82,"endTime":3153.72,"body":"What's really interesting"},{"startTime":3150.82,"endTime":3153.72,"body":"is their next page"},{"startTime":3153.72,"endTime":3156.58,"body":"where they tell you, here's"},{"startTime":3153.72,"endTime":3156.58,"body":"all I know you can't read it,"},{"startTime":3156.58,"endTime":3158.686,"body":"but I'll tell you what they're saying."},{"startTime":3158.686,"endTime":3160.336,"body":"What they're saying is"},{"startTime":3158.686,"endTime":3160.336,"body":"here's all the great reasons"},{"startTime":3160.336,"endTime":3161.87,"body":"you might want to sell your eggs,"},{"startTime":3161.87,"endTime":3165.87,"body":"help you pay for your"},{"startTime":3161.87,"endTime":3165.87,"body":"education, travel, buy a car,"},{"startTime":3165.87,"endTime":3168.82,"body":"save for a down payment"},{"startTime":3165.87,"endTime":3168.82,"body":"or save for a rainy day,"},{"startTime":3168.82,"endTime":3170.32,"body":"open your own business, right?"},{"startTime":3170.32,"endTime":3173.48,"body":"It's a really big push to sell here."},{"startTime":3173.48,"endTime":3175.75,"body":"And particularly, travel is an amazing way"},{"startTime":3175.75,"endTime":3177.09,"body":"to expand your horizons."},{"startTime":3177.09,"endTime":3178.43,"body":"And with your egg donation payment,"},{"startTime":3178.43,"endTime":3180.46,"body":"you can afford to discover"},{"startTime":3178.43,"endTime":3180.46,"body":"the world in style,"},{"startTime":3180.46,"endTime":3182.08,"body":"from an epic cross country journey"},{"startTime":3182.08,"endTime":3183.753,"body":"to a dream European vacation."},{"startTime":3184.81,"endTime":3187.26,"body":"What is really fascinating"},{"startTime":3184.81,"endTime":3187.26,"body":"here is this push,"},{"startTime":3187.26,"endTime":3190.24,"body":"this marketization in"},{"startTime":3187.26,"endTime":3190.24,"body":"that we don't have here."},{"startTime":3190.24,"endTime":3192.99,"body":"Now, if you were taking my autonomy line,"},{"startTime":3192.99,"endTime":3194.98,"body":"women can make their"},{"startTime":3192.99,"endTime":3194.98,"body":"own choices and so on."},{"startTime":3194.98,"endTime":3196.779,"body":"It would seem that egg freezing,"},{"startTime":3196.779,"endTime":3199.705,"body":"egg selling should be fine."},{"startTime":3199.705,"endTime":3202.35,"body":"I do think this is the one bit"},{"startTime":3199.705,"endTime":3202.35,"body":"that we need to have pause."},{"startTime":3202.35,"endTime":3205.13,"body":"Women can at them and get"},{"startTime":3202.35,"endTime":3205.13,"body":"compensation of up to £750"},{"startTime":3205.98,"endTime":3208.67,"body":"when they give their eggs"},{"startTime":3205.98,"endTime":3208.67,"body":"and they can have freeze"},{"startTime":3208.67,"endTime":3210.409,"body":"and share arrangements,"},{"startTime":3210.409,"endTime":3211.82,"body":"but we haven't moved to this stage yet."},{"startTime":3211.82,"endTime":3214.18,"body":"And we frame it as a gift."},{"startTime":3214.18,"endTime":3215.4,"body":"I think this is thing"},{"startTime":3215.4,"endTime":3217.96,"body":"that is our next thing"},{"startTime":3215.4,"endTime":3217.96,"body":"to be thinking about."},{"startTime":3217.96,"endTime":3219.76,"body":"Do we want to go down this road"},{"startTime":3219.76,"endTime":3222.8,"body":"and why would we not want"},{"startTime":3219.76,"endTime":3222.8,"body":"to go down this road?"},{"startTime":3222.8,"endTime":3224.99,"body":"I'm going to finish up"},{"startTime":3222.8,"endTime":3224.99,"body":"here because I'm mindful"},{"startTime":3224.99,"endTime":3225.96,"body":"that Claire's going to come and give me"},{"startTime":3225.96,"endTime":3228.967,"body":"the hard word any second,"},{"startTime":3225.96,"endTime":3228.967,"body":"which is what I wanted to say."},{"startTime":3228.967,"endTime":3231.41,"body":"And what I wanted to do with"},{"startTime":3228.967,"endTime":3231.41,"body":"this talk is to say, look,"},{"startTime":3231.41,"endTime":3233.5,"body":"it's very clear that"},{"startTime":3231.41,"endTime":3233.5,"body":"the time at which women"},{"startTime":3233.5,"endTime":3236.93,"body":"have their children has"},{"startTime":3233.5,"endTime":3236.93,"body":"an identifiable impact"},{"startTime":3236.93,"endTime":3240.22,"body":"on the educational and"},{"startTime":3236.93,"endTime":3240.22,"body":"their employment outcomes"},{"startTime":3240.22,"endTime":3242.08,"body":"and that they need to have the capacity"},{"startTime":3242.08,"endTime":3244.363,"body":"to make that decision"},{"startTime":3242.08,"endTime":3244.363,"body":"as freely as they can."},{"startTime":3245.225,"endTime":3246.63,"body":"And for some of them, egg freezing,"},{"startTime":3246.63,"endTime":3248.4,"body":"if they fully understand"},{"startTime":3246.63,"endTime":3248.4,"body":"the risks and benefits,"},{"startTime":3248.4,"endTime":3250.18,"body":"will be a valuable additional way"},{"startTime":3250.18,"endTime":3251.36,"body":"in which to balance those risks"},{"startTime":3251.36,"endTime":3253.11,"body":"in the way that they want to do it,"},{"startTime":3253.98,"endTime":3256.41,"body":"we should really take care"},{"startTime":3253.98,"endTime":3256.41,"body":"that the option to freeze eggs"},{"startTime":3256.41,"endTime":3258.28,"body":"isn't sold through as a panacea"},{"startTime":3258.28,"endTime":3259.903,"body":"for the challenges they face."},{"startTime":3260.75,"endTime":3263.24,"body":"But at the same time, we have"},{"startTime":3260.75,"endTime":3263.24,"body":"to respect women's capacity"},{"startTime":3263.24,"endTime":3265.3,"body":"to make autonomous personal choices,"},{"startTime":3265.3,"endTime":3267.92,"body":"where they're provided"},{"startTime":3265.3,"endTime":3267.92,"body":"with accurate information"},{"startTime":3267.92,"endTime":3269.53,"body":"and any assumptions that portray women"},{"startTime":3269.53,"endTime":3272.952,"body":"as overly optimistic or"},{"startTime":3269.53,"endTime":3272.952,"body":"as lacking understanding,"},{"startTime":3272.952,"endTime":3275.36,"body":"I find really problematic,"},{"startTime":3275.36,"endTime":3277.64,"body":"but what we really need"},{"startTime":3275.36,"endTime":3277.64,"body":"to do is keep putting out"},{"startTime":3277.64,"endTime":3279.75,"body":"good empirical research that tells women"},{"startTime":3279.75,"endTime":3283.6,"body":"about the risks of it"},{"startTime":3279.75,"endTime":3283.6,"body":"and the success rates."},{"startTime":3283.6,"endTime":3286.21,"body":"And so that needs to be our"},{"startTime":3283.6,"endTime":3286.21,"body":"focus rather than fear mongering"},{"startTime":3286.21,"endTime":3288.54,"body":"ring and telling women it"},{"startTime":3286.21,"endTime":3288.54,"body":"won't pay out, instead,"},{"startTime":3288.54,"endTime":3290.96,"body":"give them calm, balanced"},{"startTime":3288.54,"endTime":3290.96,"body":"information that says,"},{"startTime":3290.96,"endTime":3293.79,"body":"this is the risk, this"},{"startTime":3290.96,"endTime":3293.79,"body":"is the chance of success."},{"startTime":3293.79,"endTime":3295.87,"body":"You make the choice that is best for you"},{"startTime":3295.87,"endTime":3298.98,"body":"based on what you want in your life."},{"startTime":3298.98,"endTime":3302.58,"body":"And I'll leave you with some places"},{"startTime":3302.58,"endTime":3304.45,"body":"you can get some extra information"},{"startTime":3304.45,"endTime":3308.154,"body":"and do come and ask me any"},{"startTime":3304.45,"endTime":3308.154,"body":"questions, thank you very much."},{"startTime":3308.154,"endTime":3311.154,"body":"(audience clapping)"},{"startTime":3313.16,"endTime":3315.45,"body":"- Someone is asking, is there any data"},{"startTime":3315.45,"endTime":3318.2,"body":"on women and men's feelings about any eggs"},{"startTime":3318.2,"endTime":3321.81,"body":"left over after they have the"},{"startTime":3318.2,"endTime":3321.81,"body":"number of children they want?"},{"startTime":3321.81,"endTime":3323.99,"body":"How are people feeling"},{"startTime":3321.81,"endTime":3323.99,"body":"about destroying eggs"},{"startTime":3323.99,"endTime":3326.74,"body":"or having them used for further research?"},{"startTime":3326.74,"endTime":3329.65,"body":"- Yes, so there is some data about that."},{"startTime":3329.65,"endTime":3331.25,"body":"So I think the assumption is that men"},{"startTime":3331.25,"endTime":3332.9,"body":"really don't care about their gametes."},{"startTime":3332.9,"endTime":3334.54,"body":"They don't care about their sperm"},{"startTime":3334.54,"endTime":3335.373,"body":"and that women really care."},{"startTime":3335.373,"endTime":3337.35,"body":"And actually, I looked"},{"startTime":3335.373,"endTime":3337.35,"body":"at this quite extensively"},{"startTime":3337.35,"endTime":3339.036,"body":"in a paper that I wrote,"},{"startTime":3339.036,"endTime":3340.02,"body":"and it turns out it's"},{"startTime":3339.036,"endTime":3340.02,"body":"not really as gendered"},{"startTime":3340.02,"endTime":3341.68,"body":"as you would think, that women and men"},{"startTime":3341.68,"endTime":3344.7,"body":"have pretty similar attitudes"},{"startTime":3341.68,"endTime":3344.7,"body":"actually, a lot of them,"},{"startTime":3344.7,"endTime":3347.76,"body":"not always, sometimes it's"},{"startTime":3344.7,"endTime":3347.76,"body":"men care a little less,"},{"startTime":3347.76,"endTime":3350.47,"body":"but mostly it's about the"},{"startTime":3347.76,"endTime":3350.47,"body":"same and that both men"},{"startTime":3350.47,"endTime":3352.79,"body":"and women report, when"},{"startTime":3350.47,"endTime":3352.79,"body":"they sell their eggs,"},{"startTime":3352.79,"endTime":3354.21,"body":"that they have altruistic motives"},{"startTime":3354.21,"endTime":3356.43,"body":"and they have financial motives."},{"startTime":3356.43,"endTime":3358.56,"body":"So this idea that women"},{"startTime":3356.43,"endTime":3358.56,"body":"are thinking their eggs"},{"startTime":3358.56,"endTime":3360.13,"body":"as little babies going off into the world"},{"startTime":3360.13,"endTime":3361.55,"body":"and that men are just not caring at all,"},{"startTime":3361.55,"endTime":3363.61,"body":"actually a lot of men report"},{"startTime":3361.55,"endTime":3363.61,"body":"that they really care."},{"startTime":3363.61,"endTime":3365.69,"body":"I mean, one of the reasons men give sperm"},{"startTime":3365.69,"endTime":3367.39,"body":"is because they have children too,"},{"startTime":3367.39,"endTime":3368.37,"body":"and they report saying,"},{"startTime":3368.37,"endTime":3370.61,"body":"I want to help other people have children."},{"startTime":3370.61,"endTime":3371.85,"body":"So I think, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3371.85,"endTime":3373.9,"body":"It's not really gendered at all."},{"startTime":3373.9,"endTime":3375.92,"body":"Some people care, some people don't care."},{"startTime":3375.92,"endTime":3378.39,"body":"- Should the FHEA's powers be extended"},{"startTime":3378.39,"endTime":3380.51,"body":"to the commercial aspects of egg freezing"},{"startTime":3380.51,"endTime":3382.77,"body":"as a means of mitigating the inequalities"},{"startTime":3382.77,"endTime":3385.123,"body":"that arise with access to egg freezing."},{"startTime":3386.07,"endTime":3388.95,"body":"- Yeah, so that I think is"},{"startTime":3386.07,"endTime":3388.95,"body":"the really tough question,"},{"startTime":3388.95,"endTime":3391.05,"body":"is whether or not we"},{"startTime":3388.95,"endTime":3391.05,"body":"think the inequalities"},{"startTime":3391.05,"endTime":3395.38,"body":"are worth doing something"},{"startTime":3391.05,"endTime":3395.38,"body":"about and I have to confess,"},{"startTime":3395.38,"endTime":3396.87,"body":"I dunno, the answer to that one."},{"startTime":3396.87,"endTime":3398.932,"body":"I was asked it this morning as well."},{"startTime":3398.932,"endTime":3400.93,"body":"And I, and I kind of fudged"},{"startTime":3398.932,"endTime":3400.93,"body":"it 'cause I think, well,"},{"startTime":3400.93,"endTime":3402.68,"body":"you know, if you framed egg freezing"},{"startTime":3402.68,"endTime":3404.24,"body":"in a similar space to IVF,"},{"startTime":3404.24,"endTime":3406.14,"body":"people use IVF because"},{"startTime":3404.24,"endTime":3406.14,"body":"they can't have children."},{"startTime":3406.14,"endTime":3408.32,"body":"Sometimes the reason"},{"startTime":3406.14,"endTime":3408.32,"body":"they can't have children"},{"startTime":3408.32,"endTime":3409.153,"body":"is 'cause they've put it off, of course,"},{"startTime":3409.153,"endTime":3411.06,"body":"sometimes cause they have"},{"startTime":3409.153,"endTime":3411.06,"body":"health, all sorts of reasons"},{"startTime":3411.06,"endTime":3413.84,"body":"people get access to IVF and"},{"startTime":3411.06,"endTime":3413.84,"body":"we absolutely understand it"},{"startTime":3413.84,"endTime":3416.091,"body":"to be something that's"},{"startTime":3413.84,"endTime":3416.091,"body":"really deeply important"},{"startTime":3416.091,"endTime":3416.924,"body":"to people's lives to have children."},{"startTime":3416.924,"endTime":3418.38,"body":"And that's why we fund it."},{"startTime":3418.38,"endTime":3420.96,"body":"So when people say, well,"},{"startTime":3418.38,"endTime":3420.96,"body":"infertility's not a disease,"},{"startTime":3420.96,"endTime":3422.45,"body":"that's kind of missing the point,"},{"startTime":3422.45,"endTime":3424.41,"body":"the point that it is a"},{"startTime":3422.45,"endTime":3424.41,"body":"thing that makes their lives"},{"startTime":3424.41,"endTime":3426.72,"body":"go very badly, that happens"},{"startTime":3424.41,"endTime":3426.72,"body":"in the health context."},{"startTime":3426.72,"endTime":3428.76,"body":"And that's why the NHS funds it."},{"startTime":3428.76,"endTime":3431.91,"body":"So you could frame egg freezing"},{"startTime":3428.76,"endTime":3431.91,"body":"in the same space as that"},{"startTime":3431.91,"endTime":3434.41,"body":"to say well against a background of women"},{"startTime":3434.41,"endTime":3436.553,"body":"having very, very good reasons"},{"startTime":3434.41,"endTime":3436.553,"body":"for wanting to do this,"},{"startTime":3436.553,"endTime":3440.28,"body":"that will affect the fertility,"},{"startTime":3436.553,"endTime":3440.28,"body":"it can fall into that space,"},{"startTime":3440.28,"endTime":3442.55,"body":"whether we would then"},{"startTime":3440.28,"endTime":3442.55,"body":"go so far as to fund it"},{"startTime":3442.55,"endTime":3445.07,"body":"in the way we do, I"},{"startTime":3442.55,"endTime":3445.07,"body":"think is a hard question."},{"startTime":3445.07,"endTime":3448.84,"body":"And I have to convince"},{"startTime":3445.07,"endTime":3448.84,"body":"uncertain at this point,"},{"startTime":3448.84,"endTime":3449.913,"body":"how I feel about it."},{"startTime":3450.806,"endTime":3451.639,"body":"So I do want to point them"},{"startTime":3450.806,"endTime":3451.639,"body":"out and embarrass them"},{"startTime":3451.639,"endTime":3453.05,"body":"because there are people"},{"startTime":3451.639,"endTime":3453.05,"body":"in the audience here,"},{"startTime":3453.05,"endTime":3455.24,"body":"in fact, from Progress Educational Trust,"},{"startTime":3455.24,"endTime":3457.21,"body":"who are the people who I think,"},{"startTime":3457.21,"endTime":3459.277,"body":"in person say you did a brilliant job."},{"startTime":3459.277,"endTime":3460.33,"body":"And these are the people"},{"startTime":3460.33,"endTime":3463.4,"body":"who fought to get the"},{"startTime":3460.33,"endTime":3463.4,"body":"storage limits extended."},{"startTime":3463.4,"endTime":3465.1,"body":"And I think that's fantastic."},{"startTime":3465.1,"endTime":3466.718,"body":"Right, you can't ask me a"},{"startTime":3465.1,"endTime":3466.718,"body":"tough question now Sandy."},{"startTime":3466.718,"endTime":3468.07,"body":"- No, no, thank you very much."},{"startTime":3468.07,"endTime":3472.08,"body":"I'm curious about the HFEA that here"},{"startTime":3472.08,"endTime":3473.33,"body":"is an information source"},{"startTime":3473.33,"endTime":3476.44,"body":"about whether you do think"},{"startTime":3473.33,"endTime":3476.44,"body":"they're the people best place"},{"startTime":3476.44,"endTime":3478.16,"body":"to provide this good information."},{"startTime":3478.16,"endTime":3480.144,"body":"And whether you think they're doing"},{"startTime":3480.144,"endTime":3481.86,"body":"a decent enough job of it already,"},{"startTime":3481.86,"endTime":3483.94,"body":"it occurs to me that providing information"},{"startTime":3483.94,"endTime":3485.59,"body":"is actually quite remote"},{"startTime":3485.59,"endTime":3488.13,"body":"from their core statutory legal purpose,"},{"startTime":3488.13,"endTime":3492.544,"body":"which is licensing and"},{"startTime":3488.13,"endTime":3492.544,"body":"inspecting fertility clinics"},{"startTime":3492.544,"endTime":3493.377,"body":"in certain research centers."},{"startTime":3493.377,"endTime":3495.121,"body":"So are they the best"},{"startTime":3493.377,"endTime":3495.121,"body":"people to be doing this?"},{"startTime":3495.121,"endTime":3496.49,"body":"And if so, are they doing"},{"startTime":3495.121,"endTime":3496.49,"body":"an alright job of it?"},{"startTime":3496.49,"endTime":3499.22,"body":"- Yeah, so I don't think they're the best."},{"startTime":3499.22,"endTime":3501.774,"body":"They're the best in the sense"},{"startTime":3499.22,"endTime":3501.774,"body":"they gather lots of data."},{"startTime":3501.774,"endTime":3502.81,"body":"But when I went and looked"},{"startTime":3501.774,"endTime":3502.81,"body":"at the data where they said,"},{"startTime":3502.81,"endTime":3504.82,"body":"we've put out some information"},{"startTime":3502.81,"endTime":3504.82,"body":"about egg freezing,"},{"startTime":3504.82,"endTime":3506.99,"body":"they information about"},{"startTime":3504.82,"endTime":3506.99,"body":"increasing is really, as I said,"},{"startTime":3506.99,"endTime":3508.62,"body":"not very granular."},{"startTime":3508.62,"endTime":3510.39,"body":"And it doesn't tell you enough,"},{"startTime":3510.39,"endTime":3512.96,"body":"if you really wanted to"},{"startTime":3510.39,"endTime":3512.96,"body":"know what are my chances"},{"startTime":3512.96,"endTime":3515.2,"body":"of having a baby if I freeze at 35"},{"startTime":3515.2,"endTime":3519.64,"body":"and get pregnant at 40 their"},{"startTime":3515.2,"endTime":3519.64,"body":"data doesn't tell you that."},{"startTime":3519.64,"endTime":3522.88,"body":"They say, we didn't really"},{"startTime":3519.64,"endTime":3522.88,"body":"collect it in that way."},{"startTime":3522.88,"endTime":3524.59,"body":"And I think that's a really good point,"},{"startTime":3524.59,"endTime":3525.52,"body":"the best source of info."},{"startTime":3525.52,"endTime":3526.79,"body":"'Cause I was looking around to think,"},{"startTime":3526.79,"endTime":3528.5,"body":"where could people find"},{"startTime":3526.79,"endTime":3528.5,"body":"it if they wanted it,"},{"startTime":3528.5,"endTime":3530.91,"body":"the best source are kind"},{"startTime":3528.5,"endTime":3530.91,"body":"of egg freezing banks,"},{"startTime":3530.91,"endTime":3531.91,"body":"problem with them, of course,"},{"startTime":3531.91,"endTime":3533.98,"body":"is they want to tell you"},{"startTime":3531.91,"endTime":3533.98,"body":"that they're good at it"},{"startTime":3533.98,"endTime":3535.68,"body":"because they're the one who"},{"startTime":3533.98,"endTime":3535.68,"body":"are trying to sell it to you"},{"startTime":3535.68,"endTime":3537.8,"body":"for thousands of pounds."},{"startTime":3537.8,"endTime":3540.09,"body":"I mean, what we really need is of course,"},{"startTime":3540.09,"endTime":3541.87,"body":"independent researchers"},{"startTime":3540.09,"endTime":3541.87,"body":"and there are some,"},{"startTime":3541.87,"endTime":3543.78,"body":"so there's a pretty seminal paper"},{"startTime":3543.78,"endTime":3546.637,"body":"from about 2016 of"},{"startTime":3543.78,"endTime":3546.637,"body":"fertility and sterility."},{"startTime":3546.637,"endTime":3548.38,"body":"And that's got some pretty"},{"startTime":3546.637,"endTime":3548.38,"body":"good data from the US."},{"startTime":3548.38,"endTime":3549.68,"body":"Then the problem is though"},{"startTime":3550.59,"endTime":3552.84,"body":"the skill of the clinic is really relevant"},{"startTime":3552.84,"endTime":3554.38,"body":"to egg freezing still as well."},{"startTime":3554.38,"endTime":3555.78,"body":"So you kind of, the best data"},{"startTime":3555.78,"endTime":3558.01,"body":"would be honest data from each clinic."},{"startTime":3558.01,"endTime":3560.31,"body":"So I guess that's where the HFEA comes in."},{"startTime":3560.31,"endTime":3561.2,"body":"We could legislate say,"},{"startTime":3561.2,"endTime":3564.87,"body":"you've got to really"},{"startTime":3561.2,"endTime":3564.87,"body":"give out all this data,"},{"startTime":3564.87,"endTime":3567.11,"body":"which they do and they don't."},{"startTime":3567.11,"endTime":3568.71,"body":"And I think the place I'd send people"},{"startTime":3568.71,"endTime":3570.24,"body":"to look at this sort is Kylie Baldwin,"},{"startTime":3570.24,"endTime":3572.37,"body":"which is why I put her"},{"startTime":3570.24,"endTime":3572.37,"body":"there is that she's done"},{"startTime":3572.37,"endTime":3575.73,"body":"some stuff on this that I"},{"startTime":3572.37,"endTime":3575.73,"body":"think is really revealing."},{"startTime":3575.73,"endTime":3577.16,"body":"I'm kind of curious for you to tell me"},{"startTime":3577.16,"endTime":3578.24,"body":"who you think would be the best,"},{"startTime":3578.24,"endTime":3579.64,"body":"because I think everybody"},{"startTime":3579.64,"endTime":3582.85,"body":"has got good sides and bad sides, really."},{"startTime":3582.85,"endTime":3583.95,"body":"You can tell me after."},{"startTime":3585.21,"endTime":3586.85,"body":"- I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant"},{"startTime":3586.85,"endTime":3587.96,"body":"about the background to this,"},{"startTime":3587.96,"endTime":3591.03,"body":"but do you know why 55"},{"startTime":3587.96,"endTime":3591.03,"body":"years was decided on"},{"startTime":3591.03,"endTime":3594.12,"body":"as the extension of the"},{"startTime":3591.03,"endTime":3594.12,"body":"time and why it wasn't,"},{"startTime":3594.12,"endTime":3596.56,"body":"I dunno, 30 years or 60 years."},{"startTime":3596.56,"endTime":3598.18,"body":"- I don't know why it was 55 years."},{"startTime":3598.18,"endTime":3600.147,"body":"I think someone here does know"},{"startTime":3600.147,"endTime":3600.98,"body":"if I could put you on the spot Sarah."},{"startTime":3600.98,"endTime":3602.94,"body":"So Sarah might know."},{"startTime":3602.94,"endTime":3605.44,"body":"I mean, 55 years is a good long time."},{"startTime":3605.44,"endTime":3608.201,"body":"If you freeze if you freeze at 25,"},{"startTime":3608.201,"endTime":3609.99,"body":"55 is going to be long enough,"},{"startTime":3609.99,"endTime":3611.993,"body":"but I dunno why 55 was chosen exactly."},{"startTime":3613.32,"endTime":3615.58,"body":"But previously it was 10, so yeah,"},{"startTime":3615.58,"endTime":3617.44,"body":"anything was better than that really."},{"startTime":3617.44,"endTime":3618.88,"body":"- Okay."},{"startTime":3618.88,"endTime":3621.18,"body":"If there are no other questions"},{"startTime":3618.88,"endTime":3621.18,"body":"from the in person audience,"},{"startTime":3621.18,"endTime":3623.96,"body":"I think we draw it to a close there."},{"startTime":3623.96,"endTime":3625.68,"body":"Thank you all very much for attending."},{"startTime":3625.68,"endTime":3627.95,"body":"Thank you to our audience"},{"startTime":3625.68,"endTime":3627.95,"body":"online and thank you"},{"startTime":3627.95,"endTime":3630.391,"body":"to Professor Gould for a great lecture."},{"startTime":3630.391,"endTime":3633.153,"body":"(audience clapping)"}]}