{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.187,"endTime":1.39,"body":"- The talk today is going to be"},{"startTime":1.39,"endTime":2.4,"body":"slightly different probably"},{"startTime":2.4,"endTime":3.62,"body":"to some of the many discussions"},{"startTime":3.62,"endTime":4.81,"body":"you've heard about fakes,"},{"startTime":4.81,"endTime":6.45,"body":"because a lot of what we hear about fakes"},{"startTime":6.45,"endTime":8.5,"body":"is actually that they are,"},{"startTime":8.5,"endTime":11.39,"body":"it's rubbish and it should"},{"startTime":8.5,"endTime":11.39,"body":"almost be dismissed."},{"startTime":11.39,"endTime":13.01,"body":"And what I'm hoping today"},{"startTime":13.01,"endTime":14.53,"body":"is that we can talk about fakes"},{"startTime":14.53,"endTime":16.29,"body":"and see whether there's anything"},{"startTime":16.29,"endTime":18.81,"body":"that we can learn from"},{"startTime":16.29,"endTime":18.81,"body":"paying attention to them."},{"startTime":18.81,"endTime":20.58,"body":"What do they actually teach us?"},{"startTime":20.58,"endTime":22.16,"body":"And what can we,"},{"startTime":22.16,"endTime":22.993,"body":"what can they show us?"},{"startTime":22.993,"endTime":24.13,"body":"What blind spots do we have"},{"startTime":24.13,"endTime":26.3,"body":"in terms of our learning"},{"startTime":24.13,"endTime":26.3,"body":"and understanding?"},{"startTime":26.3,"endTime":27.133,"body":"So I'm hoping that you"},{"startTime":27.133,"endTime":28.92,"body":"are going to be able to engage with this,"},{"startTime":28.92,"endTime":31.37,"body":"and I'm really looking"},{"startTime":28.92,"endTime":31.37,"body":"forward to your questions."},{"startTime":34.14,"endTime":36.01,"body":"Okay, so, I'm going to start the talk"},{"startTime":36.01,"endTime":38.35,"body":"in a particular location."},{"startTime":38.35,"endTime":39.74,"body":"So, in the basement"},{"startTime":39.74,"endTime":42.413,"body":"of a residential building in Vienna"},{"startTime":42.413,"endTime":45.715,"body":"directly opposite the Hundertwasser House,"},{"startTime":45.715,"endTime":47.62,"body":"which is actually Vienna's most sort of"},{"startTime":47.62,"endTime":50.4,"body":"famous example of"},{"startTime":47.62,"endTime":50.4,"body":"expressionist architecture,"},{"startTime":50.4,"endTime":52.07,"body":"I'll get to that a bit later,"},{"startTime":52.07,"endTime":53.58,"body":"is the Fälschermuseum,"},{"startTime":53.58,"endTime":56.84,"body":"which translates as the"},{"startTime":53.58,"endTime":56.84,"body":"Museum of Art Fakes."},{"startTime":56.84,"endTime":57.673,"body":"I've..."},{"startTime":57.673,"endTime":60.23,"body":"This place to me is absolutely fascinating"},{"startTime":60.23,"endTime":63.81,"body":"because it is the sole"},{"startTime":60.23,"endTime":63.81,"body":"intention of this museum"},{"startTime":63.81,"endTime":67.65,"body":"is actually to collect the fake paintings"},{"startTime":67.65,"endTime":69.9,"body":"of famous art forgers."},{"startTime":69.9,"endTime":73.53,"body":"So actually we've got Han van Meegeren,"},{"startTime":73.53,"endTime":76.48,"body":"the well known Vermeer"},{"startTime":73.53,"endTime":76.48,"body":"counterfitter, he's there."},{"startTime":76.48,"endTime":78.18,"body":"And there's also Elmyr de Hory,"},{"startTime":78.18,"endTime":80.606,"body":"who's believed to be the most prolific"},{"startTime":80.606,"endTime":82.853,"body":"art forger in the world."},{"startTime":84.12,"endTime":89.12,"body":"He has painted Rembrandts,"},{"startTime":84.12,"endTime":89.12,"body":"Picassos, Monet's"},{"startTime":90.66,"endTime":92.08,"body":"and these,"},{"startTime":92.08,"endTime":94.14,"body":"and has sold them to"},{"startTime":92.08,"endTime":94.14,"body":"reputable art galleries"},{"startTime":94.14,"endTime":95.363,"body":"all around the world."},{"startTime":96.579,"endTime":98.9,"body":"Some of his imitations have gone for"},{"startTime":98.9,"endTime":101.27,"body":"millions of dollars."},{"startTime":101.27,"endTime":105.89,"body":"So one of his Picassos went for 50 mil,"},{"startTime":105.89,"endTime":108.96,"body":"the equivalent of $50"},{"startTime":105.89,"endTime":108.96,"body":"million in today's money,"},{"startTime":108.96,"endTime":111.172,"body":"in the 1960s."},{"startTime":111.172,"endTime":113.36,"body":"And what's really interesting"},{"startTime":113.36,"endTime":114.91,"body":"is the vast majority of his work,"},{"startTime":114.91,"endTime":117.61,"body":"some estimate around 90% of his work"},{"startTime":117.61,"endTime":119.05,"body":"is actually still hanging"},{"startTime":119.05,"endTime":121.443,"body":"on the walls of many of the galleries."},{"startTime":123.07,"endTime":125.63,"body":"Every, you know, few years,"},{"startTime":125.63,"endTime":127.43,"body":"one of them gets revealed"},{"startTime":127.43,"endTime":128.93,"body":"as technology becomes much more"},{"startTime":128.93,"endTime":130.743,"body":"precise in detecting fakes."},{"startTime":131.998,"endTime":135.27,"body":"But some of these are still"},{"startTime":131.998,"endTime":135.27,"body":"hanging on the walls today."},{"startTime":135.27,"endTime":137.83,"body":"And some would argue that they are sort of"},{"startTime":137.83,"endTime":140.563,"body":"known to be fake, but"},{"startTime":137.83,"endTime":140.563,"body":"strategically ignored."},{"startTime":142.767,"endTime":144.58,"body":"So one of the things I"},{"startTime":142.767,"endTime":144.58,"body":"find really fascinating"},{"startTime":144.58,"endTime":146.63,"body":"about the Fälschermuseum is actually"},{"startTime":146.63,"endTime":149.461,"body":"it really seeks to sort"},{"startTime":146.63,"endTime":149.461,"body":"of celebrate the skill"},{"startTime":149.461,"endTime":152.51,"body":"and the expertise of these art forgers"},{"startTime":152.51,"endTime":154.49,"body":"and really forces us"},{"startTime":152.51,"endTime":154.49,"body":"to really pay attention"},{"startTime":154.49,"endTime":156.69,"body":"to what they can teach us."},{"startTime":156.69,"endTime":158.9,"body":"One of the things that they are depict,"},{"startTime":158.9,"endTime":161.61,"body":"how they're depicted in the museum"},{"startTime":161.61,"endTime":163.5,"body":"as this kind of antiheroes."},{"startTime":163.5,"endTime":165.708,"body":"They're there and they expose"},{"startTime":165.708,"endTime":168.77,"body":"the kind of ego and the hubris"},{"startTime":168.77,"endTime":171.83,"body":"of these art experts."},{"startTime":171.83,"endTime":173.76,"body":"So what we see is"},{"startTime":174.85,"endTime":177.64,"body":"these kinds of antiheroes going up against"},{"startTime":177.64,"endTime":180.01,"body":"this very small closed worlds"},{"startTime":180.01,"endTime":182.84,"body":"of a handful of experts that get to decide"},{"startTime":182.84,"endTime":184.73,"body":"whether a Picasso is a Picasso"},{"startTime":184.73,"endTime":187.38,"body":"or a Monet is, in fact, a Monet."},{"startTime":187.38,"endTime":190.88,"body":"And the pieces that are"},{"startTime":187.38,"endTime":190.88,"body":"celebrated in the museum"},{"startTime":190.88,"endTime":193.566,"body":"are really the,"},{"startTime":193.566,"endTime":195.4,"body":"one of the things that they try to do"},{"startTime":195.4,"endTime":196.863,"body":"is to really question,"},{"startTime":196.863,"endTime":199.34,"body":"who is the expert."},{"startTime":199.34,"endTime":201.33,"body":"And if these paintings are so good"},{"startTime":201.33,"endTime":202.49,"body":"that they were able to"},{"startTime":204.06,"endTime":205.65,"body":"fool these art experts,"},{"startTime":205.65,"endTime":207.193,"body":"what can we learn from them?"},{"startTime":208.7,"endTime":210.18,"body":"So one of the things I found..."},{"startTime":210.18,"endTime":211.31,"body":"A couple of years ago,"},{"startTime":211.31,"endTime":215.297,"body":"I did a podcast called,"},{"startTime":211.31,"endTime":215.297,"body":"Explaining the Genuine Fake,"},{"startTime":215.297,"endTime":217.03,"body":"\"Exploring the Genuine Fake,\" sorry,"},{"startTime":217.03,"endTime":220.13,"body":"and I really enjoyed it."},{"startTime":220.13,"endTime":221.74,"body":"I had 10 different,"},{"startTime":221.74,"endTime":223.15,"body":"it was 10 different podcasts."},{"startTime":223.15,"endTime":225.22,"body":"And I invited people to"},{"startTime":223.15,"endTime":225.22,"body":"come and speak about this,"},{"startTime":225.22,"endTime":227.43,"body":"their ideas about the genuine fake,"},{"startTime":227.43,"endTime":228.263,"body":"which are fakes which are"},{"startTime":228.263,"endTime":230.72,"body":"both real and fake at the same time."},{"startTime":230.72,"endTime":233.55,"body":"And one of the people who"},{"startTime":230.72,"endTime":233.55,"body":"came along was Vernon Rapley"},{"startTime":233.55,"endTime":234.67,"body":"and Vernon is actually"},{"startTime":234.67,"endTime":236.44,"body":"the Director of the Cultural Heritage"},{"startTime":236.44,"endTime":239.5,"body":"Protection and Security at"},{"startTime":236.44,"endTime":239.5,"body":"the Victoria \u0026 Albert Museum."},{"startTime":239.5,"endTime":242.115,"body":"He was absolutely fascinating,"},{"startTime":239.5,"endTime":242.115,"body":"as you can imagine."},{"startTime":242.115,"endTime":244.25,"body":"But what he was saying was that"},{"startTime":244.25,"endTime":248.07,"body":"actually these forgers invest more time"},{"startTime":248.07,"endTime":250.641,"body":"in fabricating all the documents"},{"startTime":250.641,"endTime":252.75,"body":"that they will need to prove"},{"startTime":252.75,"endTime":254.63,"body":"that a Picasso is a Picasso,"},{"startTime":254.63,"endTime":257.36,"body":"than they do sometimes the"},{"startTime":254.63,"endTime":257.36,"body":"actual paintings themselves."},{"startTime":257.36,"endTime":260.99,"body":"And they often forge the documents first."},{"startTime":260.99,"endTime":264.602,"body":"And if they can't have"},{"startTime":260.99,"endTime":264.602,"body":"convincing documents,"},{"startTime":264.602,"endTime":267.98,"body":"then they often won't pursue the painting."},{"startTime":267.98,"endTime":270.03,"body":"So this is also really"},{"startTime":267.98,"endTime":270.03,"body":"fascinating as well,"},{"startTime":270.03,"endTime":273.13,"body":"to look at the kind of effort"},{"startTime":270.03,"endTime":273.13,"body":"that goes into forging."},{"startTime":273.13,"endTime":274.38,"body":"And one of the things that Vernon"},{"startTime":274.38,"endTime":275.75,"body":"was so great at explaining"},{"startTime":275.75,"endTime":279.147,"body":"was that fakes don't exist on their own."},{"startTime":279.147,"endTime":281.92,"body":"One fake always leads to another fake,"},{"startTime":281.92,"endTime":285.663,"body":"because in order to have"},{"startTime":281.92,"endTime":285.663,"body":"really good documents"},{"startTime":285.663,"endTime":287.96,"body":"to support a fake painting"},{"startTime":287.96,"endTime":290.09,"body":"you need to have access"},{"startTime":287.96,"endTime":290.09,"body":"to whole ecosystems"},{"startTime":290.09,"endTime":292.66,"body":"of people who can"},{"startTime":290.09,"endTime":292.66,"body":"produce fake letterheads,"},{"startTime":292.66,"endTime":295.58,"body":"and so they often exist alongside"},{"startTime":295.58,"endTime":297.56,"body":"lots of other fakes."},{"startTime":297.56,"endTime":300.22,"body":"But what's really fascinating"},{"startTime":297.56,"endTime":300.22,"body":"is that these forgers,"},{"startTime":300.22,"endTime":302.26,"body":"they become kind of experts"},{"startTime":302.26,"endTime":304.66,"body":"at delivering the kinds of evidence"},{"startTime":304.66,"endTime":307.14,"body":"that they think that experts want to see."},{"startTime":307.14,"endTime":309.69,"body":"And I found this really"},{"startTime":307.14,"endTime":309.69,"body":"interesting to learn about."},{"startTime":309.69,"endTime":312.2,"body":"So what we know is that"},{"startTime":312.2,"endTime":315.3,"body":"some experts might"},{"startTime":312.2,"endTime":315.3,"body":"prefer official documents"},{"startTime":315.3,"endTime":317.31,"body":"from the University of Oxford."},{"startTime":317.31,"endTime":319.523,"body":"And so forgers will spend a lot of time"},{"startTime":319.523,"endTime":322.23,"body":"investing in the right types of paper,"},{"startTime":322.23,"endTime":323.24,"body":"the right type of ink,"},{"startTime":323.24,"endTime":324.54,"body":"to be able to forge that,"},{"startTime":324.54,"endTime":327.29,"body":"even before they even start"},{"startTime":324.54,"endTime":327.29,"body":"looking at the painting."},{"startTime":327.29,"endTime":329.582,"body":"So what we start to see is a kind of"},{"startTime":329.582,"endTime":332.27,"body":"a way of understanding"},{"startTime":332.27,"endTime":334.33,"body":"authority and expertise"},{"startTime":334.33,"endTime":335.953,"body":"from the fake."},{"startTime":338.05,"endTime":340.69,"body":"What the art forgers know is that"},{"startTime":340.69,"endTime":343.13,"body":"because so much deference is given"},{"startTime":343.13,"endTime":345.41,"body":"to the opinion of a really small,"},{"startTime":345.41,"endTime":347.5,"body":"closed group of people"},{"startTime":347.5,"endTime":349.97,"body":"that if they can convince"},{"startTime":347.5,"endTime":349.97,"body":"one of two of those people"},{"startTime":349.97,"endTime":352.08,"body":"that their fake is real,"},{"startTime":352.08,"endTime":354.69,"body":"they know they have"},{"startTime":352.08,"endTime":354.69,"body":"access to art galleries"},{"startTime":354.69,"endTime":357.12,"body":"who often unquestionably will accept"},{"startTime":357.12,"endTime":359.02,"body":"this opinion of this expert."},{"startTime":359.02,"endTime":359.853,"body":"And then,"},{"startTime":359.853,"endTime":361.47,"body":"they're onto the walls of these galleries"},{"startTime":361.47,"endTime":363.861,"body":"sometimes indefinitely."},{"startTime":363.861,"endTime":366.52,"body":"So I've found it's really fascinating"},{"startTime":366.52,"endTime":368.147,"body":"when we think about the,"},{"startTime":368.147,"endTime":370.44,"body":"Museum of Art Fakes is"},{"startTime":370.44,"endTime":371.96,"body":"it teaches us to think through"},{"startTime":371.96,"endTime":375.56,"body":"the role of expertise"},{"startTime":371.96,"endTime":375.56,"body":"and actually sometimes"},{"startTime":375.56,"endTime":377.773,"body":"how easily that can be manipulated."},{"startTime":379.02,"endTime":380.12,"body":"It also asks questions of"},{"startTime":380.12,"endTime":382.38,"body":"who gets to become an expert"},{"startTime":382.38,"endTime":384.373,"body":"and by what means."},{"startTime":388.37,"endTime":391.463,"body":"So seven streets away"},{"startTime":388.37,"endTime":391.463,"body":"from the Fälschermuseum,"},{"startTime":392.379,"endTime":394.53,"body":"on the corner of Stadtpark,"},{"startTime":394.53,"endTime":397.81,"body":"is the meeting point of a walking tour"},{"startTime":397.81,"endTime":399.89,"body":"for \"The Third Man,\""},{"startTime":399.89,"endTime":403.03,"body":"which was famously filmed"},{"startTime":399.89,"endTime":403.03,"body":"on location in Vienna."},{"startTime":403.03,"endTime":404.97,"body":"I can actually nerdishly confess"},{"startTime":404.97,"endTime":406.77,"body":"to having been on this walking tour,"},{"startTime":407.941,"endTime":412.204,"body":"directed by Carol Reed"},{"startTime":407.941,"endTime":412.204,"body":"and released in 1949."},{"startTime":412.204,"endTime":415.084,"body":"\"The Third Man\" is based"},{"startTime":412.204,"endTime":415.084,"body":"on a book by Graham Green"},{"startTime":415.084,"endTime":417.35,"body":"and that tells the story of Harry Lime,"},{"startTime":417.35,"endTime":421.4,"body":"a racketeer who fakes"},{"startTime":417.35,"endTime":421.4,"body":"penicillin in postwar Vienna."},{"startTime":421.4,"endTime":423.761,"body":"I don't know if any of"},{"startTime":421.4,"endTime":423.761,"body":"you've seen \"The Third Man,\""},{"startTime":423.761,"endTime":425.07,"body":"some of you have,"},{"startTime":425.07,"endTime":427.24,"body":"but for those of you who have seen it,"},{"startTime":427.24,"endTime":430.089,"body":"you'll know that Harry Lime"},{"startTime":427.24,"endTime":430.089,"body":"is played by Orson Welles"},{"startTime":430.089,"endTime":432.304,"body":"and he leads a gang"},{"startTime":432.304,"endTime":436.38,"body":"who stole penicillin"},{"startTime":432.304,"endTime":436.38,"body":"from a military hospital."},{"startTime":436.38,"endTime":440.883,"body":"They adulterated it, fabricated"},{"startTime":436.38,"endTime":440.883,"body":"it, and then sold it on."},{"startTime":440.883,"endTime":443.4,"body":"The authorities are actually onto Lime"},{"startTime":443.4,"endTime":444.923,"body":"and so he fakes his death."},{"startTime":446.28,"endTime":448.98,"body":"The film actually centers"},{"startTime":446.28,"endTime":448.98,"body":"on the search for Lime,"},{"startTime":448.98,"endTime":450.2,"body":"takes us through the sewers"},{"startTime":450.2,"endTime":453.16,"body":"and the underground networks of Vienna."},{"startTime":453.16,"endTime":456.78,"body":"The audience starts"},{"startTime":453.16,"endTime":456.78,"body":"uncover more about Lime"},{"startTime":456.78,"endTime":458.007,"body":"through a close friend of his"},{"startTime":458.007,"endTime":460.75,"body":"who is actually visiting"},{"startTime":458.007,"endTime":460.75,"body":"Vienna to try and find him."},{"startTime":460.75,"endTime":463.337,"body":"And we meet his Czech girlfriend"},{"startTime":463.337,"endTime":467.7,"body":"who he presents this false persona to."},{"startTime":467.7,"endTime":469.93,"body":"But we get to see another side of Lime"},{"startTime":469.93,"endTime":471.45,"body":"as somebody who's caring."},{"startTime":471.45,"endTime":473.99,"body":"He gives his girlfriend a fake passport"},{"startTime":473.99,"endTime":475.48,"body":"that allows her to stay"},{"startTime":475.48,"endTime":477.773,"body":"without, and she's not deported to Russia."},{"startTime":478.93,"endTime":480.44,"body":"So through these characters,"},{"startTime":480.44,"endTime":481.76,"body":"the audience is actually ends up"},{"startTime":481.76,"endTime":484.13,"body":"being quite endeared to Lime."},{"startTime":484.13,"endTime":485.83,"body":"He's a kind of anti-hero."},{"startTime":485.83,"endTime":487.68,"body":"We don't actually want him to get caught"},{"startTime":487.68,"endTime":490.338,"body":"as he's running through all the sewers."},{"startTime":490.338,"endTime":493.2,"body":"We see absolutely no"},{"startTime":490.338,"endTime":493.2,"body":"evidence of his crime."},{"startTime":493.2,"endTime":495.85,"body":"We just, only suggestion and rumor."},{"startTime":495.85,"endTime":497.63,"body":"And these are really discounted"},{"startTime":497.63,"endTime":499.07,"body":"by his girlfriend and his friend,"},{"startTime":499.07,"endTime":501.22,"body":"because they don't know"},{"startTime":499.07,"endTime":501.22,"body":"that aspect of him."},{"startTime":502.21,"endTime":505.24,"body":"So what we learn from the"},{"startTime":502.21,"endTime":505.24,"body":"kind of fake that's presented"},{"startTime":505.24,"endTime":508.7,"body":"is that fakes often exist"},{"startTime":505.24,"endTime":508.7,"body":"at a certain moment in time"},{"startTime":508.7,"endTime":510.762,"body":"of sort of great social upheaval"},{"startTime":510.762,"endTime":514.038,"body":"where the decisions of key institutions"},{"startTime":514.038,"endTime":517.12,"body":"seem arbitrary, morally questionable."},{"startTime":517.12,"endTime":519.293,"body":"You know, we get to see"},{"startTime":519.293,"endTime":521.44,"body":"the sense of a kind of trust deficit"},{"startTime":521.44,"endTime":524.66,"body":"in many of the institutions"},{"startTime":521.44,"endTime":524.66,"body":"in post-war Vienna."},{"startTime":524.66,"endTime":528.26,"body":"And also we get to see a kind"},{"startTime":524.66,"endTime":528.26,"body":"of different range of fakes."},{"startTime":528.26,"endTime":531.23,"body":"So we get to see the fake passport."},{"startTime":531.23,"endTime":533.11,"body":"We get to see the fake death."},{"startTime":533.11,"endTime":534.07,"body":"We get, you know,"},{"startTime":534.07,"endTime":536.163,"body":"lots of different, the fake penicillin."},{"startTime":538.94,"endTime":541.28,"body":"The film is, really,"},{"startTime":541.28,"endTime":542.66,"body":"for those of you who haven't seen it,"},{"startTime":542.66,"endTime":544.363,"body":"I would recommend it."},{"startTime":546.13,"endTime":549.78,"body":"So while Hundertwasser House is considered"},{"startTime":549.78,"endTime":551.65,"body":"one of Vienna's most famous examples"},{"startTime":551.65,"endTime":553.217,"body":"of expressionist architecture,"},{"startTime":553.217,"endTime":556.24,"body":"\"The Third Man\" is also"},{"startTime":553.217,"endTime":556.24,"body":"regarded as a classic"},{"startTime":556.24,"endTime":560.27,"body":"for its use of expressionism"},{"startTime":556.24,"endTime":560.27,"body":"as a cinematic tool."},{"startTime":560.27,"endTime":563.76,"body":"The expressionist movement"},{"startTime":560.27,"endTime":563.76,"body":"developed in the 20th century,"},{"startTime":563.76,"endTime":564.81,"body":"mainly in Germany,"},{"startTime":564.81,"endTime":565.94,"body":"as a reaction to the sort of"},{"startTime":565.94,"endTime":569.01,"body":"dehumanizing effect of industrialization."},{"startTime":569.01,"endTime":571.37,"body":"I want to talk about it here"},{"startTime":569.01,"endTime":571.37,"body":"because it's used so much"},{"startTime":571.37,"endTime":575.26,"body":"in \"The Third Man\" and"},{"startTime":571.37,"endTime":575.26,"body":"it's in art in particular,"},{"startTime":575.26,"endTime":577.012,"body":"this expressionism is really"},{"startTime":577.012,"endTime":579.881,"body":"displays itself as a kind of"},{"startTime":579.881,"endTime":584.48,"body":"distorted angles, lighting,"},{"startTime":579.881,"endTime":584.48,"body":"and scenes for emotional"},{"startTime":584.48,"endTime":587.043,"body":"effects are used and it's often dramatic."},{"startTime":588.032,"endTime":590.37,"body":"And in \"The Third Man,\""},{"startTime":590.37,"endTime":592.16,"body":"the lighting is absolutely crucial."},{"startTime":592.16,"endTime":596.993,"body":"So we see the really atmospheric"},{"startTime":592.16,"endTime":596.993,"body":"uses of black and white."},{"startTime":596.993,"endTime":599.94,"body":"We see harsh lighting"},{"startTime":596.993,"endTime":599.94,"body":"and significant shadows."},{"startTime":599.94,"endTime":602.43,"body":"The shadows are actually"},{"startTime":599.94,"endTime":602.43,"body":"really significant"},{"startTime":602.43,"endTime":604.868,"body":"throughout the film as an important tool."},{"startTime":604.868,"endTime":607.651,"body":"And the shadows are really"},{"startTime":604.868,"endTime":607.651,"body":"use to sort of challenge"},{"startTime":607.651,"endTime":610.928,"body":"our attachment to binary opposites,"},{"startTime":610.928,"endTime":614.183,"body":"to visibility and invisibility,"},{"startTime":615.112,"endTime":617.94,"body":"to light and to dark,"},{"startTime":617.94,"endTime":620.01,"body":"to black and white, and ultimately,"},{"startTime":620.01,"endTime":622.283,"body":"to our ideas of real and fake."},{"startTime":625.24,"endTime":627.0,"body":"The film is also fascinating."},{"startTime":627.0,"endTime":628.89,"body":"Sorry, mistake on that one."},{"startTime":628.89,"endTime":631.37,"body":"The film is also really"},{"startTime":628.89,"endTime":631.37,"body":"fascinating because"},{"startTime":631.37,"endTime":633.78,"body":"in addition to this lighting,"},{"startTime":633.78,"endTime":636.594,"body":"it also uses a technique known as"},{"startTime":636.594,"endTime":639.53,"body":"a Dutch or Deutsch tilt,"},{"startTime":639.53,"endTime":643.532,"body":"where the camera is"},{"startTime":639.53,"endTime":643.532,"body":"focused on a skewed angle."},{"startTime":643.532,"endTime":646.07,"body":"This is actually used as a technique"},{"startTime":646.07,"endTime":648.69,"body":"to convey kind of moral confusion."},{"startTime":648.69,"endTime":650.37,"body":"You know, what is it about Lime?"},{"startTime":650.37,"endTime":651.65,"body":"You know, who is he"},{"startTime":651.65,"endTime":653.043,"body":"and why is he on the run?"},{"startTime":654.03,"endTime":656.68,"body":"The peculiar placement"},{"startTime":654.03,"endTime":656.68,"body":"of the camera in the film"},{"startTime":656.68,"endTime":659.13,"body":"is one of the most"},{"startTime":656.68,"endTime":659.13,"body":"expressionist aspects of it."},{"startTime":659.13,"endTime":660.563,"body":"And it's used throughout."},{"startTime":661.68,"endTime":664.115,"body":"That is until the camera kind of pans"},{"startTime":664.115,"endTime":668.66,"body":"to the evidence of the"},{"startTime":664.115,"endTime":668.66,"body":"severity of Lime's crime,"},{"startTime":668.66,"endTime":671.453,"body":"the children who consumed"},{"startTime":668.66,"endTime":671.453,"body":"his fake penicillin."},{"startTime":674.51,"endTime":678.34,"body":"So not only do we have Lime's girlfriend,"},{"startTime":678.34,"endTime":680.4,"body":"who's sort of taken in"},{"startTime":678.34,"endTime":680.4,"body":"by his fake persona,"},{"startTime":680.4,"endTime":681.76,"body":"we, the audience,"},{"startTime":681.76,"endTime":684.887,"body":"are beguiled and then manipulated as well."},{"startTime":684.887,"endTime":688.58,"body":"The movement from kind of"},{"startTime":684.887,"endTime":688.58,"body":"confusion to moral clarity"},{"startTime":688.58,"endTime":690.55,"body":"is made possible through the lighting."},{"startTime":690.55,"endTime":693.7,"body":"But then we're told the"},{"startTime":690.55,"endTime":693.7,"body":"harsh truth about penicillin."},{"startTime":693.7,"endTime":695.228,"body":"There's a famous line"},{"startTime":695.228,"endTime":699.615,"body":"in the film that says,"},{"startTime":695.228,"endTime":699.615,"body":"\"the lucky children died.\""},{"startTime":699.615,"endTime":702.568,"body":"So no longer is there"},{"startTime":699.615,"endTime":702.568,"body":"any kind of ambiguity."},{"startTime":702.568,"endTime":704.84,"body":"The message of the film"},{"startTime":702.568,"endTime":704.84,"body":"is really unequivocal."},{"startTime":704.84,"endTime":708.43,"body":"Fakes are immoral and medicines kill,"},{"startTime":708.43,"endTime":710.123,"body":"fake medicines kill children."},{"startTime":712.17,"endTime":716.3,"body":"So the take home message"},{"startTime":712.17,"endTime":716.3,"body":"about fakes here is that"},{"startTime":716.3,"endTime":717.392,"body":"while we could say, okay,"},{"startTime":717.392,"endTime":720.895,"body":"fakes are, to my knowledge,"},{"startTime":717.392,"endTime":720.895,"body":"never killed anyone,"},{"startTime":720.895,"endTime":722.9,"body":"but there is kind of an exception"},{"startTime":722.9,"endTime":724.253,"body":"in the realm of health."},{"startTime":725.39,"endTime":728.79,"body":"What we have are different ideas of fakes."},{"startTime":728.79,"endTime":731.68,"body":"So we get introduced to the good fake,"},{"startTime":731.68,"endTime":733.01,"body":"the passport,"},{"startTime":733.01,"endTime":734.64,"body":"that's done to undermine these sort of"},{"startTime":734.64,"endTime":737.87,"body":"really arbitrary and"},{"startTime":734.64,"endTime":737.87,"body":"harsh government rules"},{"startTime":737.87,"endTime":738.78,"body":"that don't, you know,"},{"startTime":738.78,"endTime":741.02,"body":"that really blight people's lives."},{"startTime":741.02,"endTime":742.603,"body":"But then we have the bad fake."},{"startTime":743.626,"endTime":744.87,"body":"And it's bad because it doesn't work,"},{"startTime":744.87,"endTime":747.41,"body":"but it's also morally bad"},{"startTime":744.87,"endTime":747.41,"body":"cause it harms people."},{"startTime":747.41,"endTime":749.52,"body":"So we get these sort of distinction"},{"startTime":749.52,"endTime":754.113,"body":"between fakes and their moral"},{"startTime":749.52,"endTime":754.113,"body":"consequences in the film."},{"startTime":758.31,"endTime":763.31,"body":"In 1999, the British"},{"startTime":758.31,"endTime":763.31,"body":"Film Institute actually"},{"startTime":763.41,"endTime":765.83,"body":"called \"The Third Man\" one of the most,"},{"startTime":765.83,"endTime":766.663,"body":"it was in fact,"},{"startTime":766.663,"endTime":769.16,"body":"the number one British"},{"startTime":766.663,"endTime":769.16,"body":"film of the 20th century."},{"startTime":769.16,"endTime":771.33,"body":"That was just the kind of accolade."},{"startTime":771.33,"endTime":773.298,"body":"Its star, Orson Welles,"},{"startTime":773.298,"endTime":776.3,"body":"continued his kind of lifelong fascination"},{"startTime":776.3,"endTime":778.628,"body":"with authenticity and fakes."},{"startTime":778.628,"endTime":782.99,"body":"But while the fake man"},{"startTime":778.628,"endTime":782.99,"body":"was kind of unequivocal"},{"startTime":782.99,"endTime":784.997,"body":"that fakes were bad,"},{"startTime":784.997,"endTime":787.11,"body":"Orson Welles relationship with the fakes"},{"startTime":787.11,"endTime":789.319,"body":"was a bit more nuanced."},{"startTime":789.319,"endTime":793.84,"body":"He demonstrated this in his"},{"startTime":789.319,"endTime":793.84,"body":"docudrame\" F for Fakes,\""},{"startTime":793.84,"endTime":795.75,"body":"which he starred in and co-wrote,"},{"startTime":795.75,"endTime":798.89,"body":"and in fact was the last"},{"startTime":795.75,"endTime":798.89,"body":"film that he directed."},{"startTime":798.89,"endTime":800.888,"body":"So it starts off with him"},{"startTime":800.888,"endTime":803.424,"body":"doing some magic tricks."},{"startTime":803.424,"endTime":806.97,"body":"And then, as if almost by magic, he,"},{"startTime":806.97,"endTime":810.01,"body":"it segues into the story of Elmyr de Hory,"},{"startTime":810.01,"endTime":814.05,"body":"the art forger who is at the"},{"startTime":810.01,"endTime":814.05,"body":"Fälschermuseum in Vienna,"},{"startTime":814.05,"endTime":817.223,"body":"whose paintings are celebrated there."},{"startTime":818.33,"endTime":821.38,"body":"The film actually"},{"startTime":818.33,"endTime":821.38,"body":"recounts de Hory's career"},{"startTime":821.38,"endTime":823.3,"body":"as a master art forger,"},{"startTime":823.3,"endTime":826.0,"body":"a central theme in de Hory's story"},{"startTime":826.0,"endTime":829.16,"body":"is a desire to be known as"},{"startTime":826.0,"endTime":829.16,"body":"an artist in his own right."},{"startTime":829.16,"endTime":831.151,"body":"And he questions throughout,"},{"startTime":831.151,"endTime":834.5,"body":"why can't I be accepted in the art world"},{"startTime":834.5,"endTime":835.903,"body":"using my own name?"},{"startTime":837.348,"endTime":839.95,"body":"He really wonders,"},{"startTime":839.95,"endTime":841.13,"body":"at what point"},{"startTime":841.13,"endTime":844.853,"body":"can he move from a fake to a real artist."},{"startTime":846.33,"endTime":848.71,"body":"And reflecting on this in many ways,"},{"startTime":848.71,"endTime":851.67,"body":"I feel that de Hory's"},{"startTime":848.71,"endTime":851.67,"body":"position really reflects"},{"startTime":851.67,"endTime":853.76,"body":"and mirrors some of the"},{"startTime":851.67,"endTime":853.76,"body":"work that I've been doing"},{"startTime":853.76,"endTime":856.47,"body":"with shadow scholars in Kenya."},{"startTime":856.47,"endTime":859.47,"body":"So the shadow scholars is a"},{"startTime":856.47,"endTime":859.47,"body":"term that's used to describe"},{"startTime":859.47,"endTime":860.873,"body":"a group of people who,"},{"startTime":861.71,"endTime":863.019,"body":"a sizeable group of educated"},{"startTime":863.019,"endTime":866.693,"body":"and very sort of technically"},{"startTime":863.019,"endTime":866.693,"body":"adept young people in Kenya"},{"startTime":866.693,"endTime":869.28,"body":"who write for others."},{"startTime":869.28,"endTime":871.34,"body":"They do so in secret."},{"startTime":871.34,"endTime":873.15,"body":"And they do it in a"},{"startTime":871.34,"endTime":873.15,"body":"number of different papers"},{"startTime":873.15,"endTime":874.99,"body":"from subjects,"},{"startTime":874.99,"endTime":879.419,"body":"from nursing, medicine, science."},{"startTime":879.419,"endTime":881.84,"body":"They write for journal publications,"},{"startTime":881.84,"endTime":882.673,"body":"they write essays,"},{"startTime":882.673,"endTime":886.09,"body":"they do assignments for other"},{"startTime":882.673,"endTime":886.09,"body":"people and dissertations."},{"startTime":886.09,"endTime":887.64,"body":"Normally when I say that,"},{"startTime":887.64,"endTime":888.473,"body":"people think,"},{"startTime":888.473,"endTime":889.72,"body":"why didn't I find that person"},{"startTime":889.72,"endTime":891.72,"body":"when I was doing my dissertation, but..."},{"startTime":892.797,"endTime":895.793,"body":"And they mostly write for"},{"startTime":892.797,"endTime":895.793,"body":"people in the UK and the US."},{"startTime":896.965,"endTime":899.39,"body":"And they write as part"},{"startTime":896.965,"endTime":899.39,"body":"of what's now become"},{"startTime":899.39,"endTime":902.85,"body":"this kind of million dollar"},{"startTime":899.39,"endTime":902.85,"body":"sort fake essay industry."},{"startTime":902.85,"endTime":906.67,"body":"Nairobi is a kind of epicenter"},{"startTime":902.85,"endTime":906.67,"body":"of this global industry."},{"startTime":906.67,"endTime":908.57,"body":"And there are kind of"},{"startTime":906.67,"endTime":908.57,"body":"conservative estimates"},{"startTime":908.57,"endTime":912.2,"body":"of around 40,000 of these writers"},{"startTime":912.2,"endTime":914.56,"body":"actively practicing there."},{"startTime":914.56,"endTime":916.12,"body":"They're described as shadow scholars,"},{"startTime":916.12,"endTime":917.0,"body":"but it isn't a term"},{"startTime":917.0,"endTime":919.45,"body":"that they would use to"},{"startTime":917.0,"endTime":919.45,"body":"describe themselves often."},{"startTime":920.381,"endTime":922.98,"body":"The shadow position that"},{"startTime":920.381,"endTime":922.98,"body":"they find themselves in"},{"startTime":922.98,"endTime":926.297,"body":"is actually a kind of product of"},{"startTime":926.297,"endTime":931.297,"body":"the surplus of highly educated"},{"startTime":926.297,"endTime":931.297,"body":"and unemployed young people,"},{"startTime":931.755,"endTime":934.06,"body":"the geopolitics that make it really hard"},{"startTime":934.06,"endTime":936.87,"body":"for Kenyans actually to"},{"startTime":934.06,"endTime":936.87,"body":"take up positions elsewhere,"},{"startTime":936.87,"endTime":938.846,"body":"because of visa restrictions"},{"startTime":938.846,"endTime":942.183,"body":"and really for the demand"},{"startTime":938.846,"endTime":942.183,"body":"coming from the global north."},{"startTime":943.193,"endTime":944.41,"body":"Like I said,"},{"startTime":944.41,"endTime":946.67,"body":"these Kenyan writers do"},{"startTime":944.41,"endTime":946.67,"body":"not consider themselves"},{"startTime":946.67,"endTime":948.43,"body":"to be shadows or fakes"},{"startTime":948.43,"endTime":951.07,"body":"and they're producing bespoke,"},{"startTime":951.07,"endTime":952.5,"body":"individual pieces of work."},{"startTime":952.5,"endTime":955.2,"body":"And so for they think"},{"startTime":952.5,"endTime":955.2,"body":"they're the real thing"},{"startTime":955.2,"endTime":958.06,"body":"and that it's their clients"},{"startTime":955.2,"endTime":958.06,"body":"who are the shadows."},{"startTime":958.06,"endTime":962.06,"body":"So, just like the moral"},{"startTime":958.06,"endTime":962.06,"body":"confusion that's been,"},{"startTime":962.06,"endTime":964.78,"body":"that was created and"},{"startTime":962.06,"endTime":964.78,"body":"discussed in \"The Third Man,\""},{"startTime":964.78,"endTime":966.857,"body":"we learned that the observer's perspective"},{"startTime":966.857,"endTime":968.39,"body":"is really important"},{"startTime":968.39,"endTime":970.84,"body":"in determining whether"},{"startTime":968.39,"endTime":970.84,"body":"something is real or fake."},{"startTime":971.85,"endTime":974.02,"body":"As Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o, the Kenyan writer"},{"startTime":974.02,"endTime":976.037,"body":"and post-colonialist theorist said,"},{"startTime":976.037,"endTime":977.18,"body":"\"the light source,"},{"startTime":977.18,"endTime":979.77,"body":"whether the sun in the"},{"startTime":977.18,"endTime":979.77,"body":"day or moon at night"},{"startTime":979.77,"endTime":982.972,"body":"or fire inside or outside"},{"startTime":979.77,"endTime":982.972,"body":"a house at the time,"},{"startTime":982.972,"endTime":985.79,"body":"yes, even the time and the"},{"startTime":982.972,"endTime":985.79,"body":"passage through the window"},{"startTime":985.79,"endTime":987.183,"body":"or a crack in the wall,"},{"startTime":987.183,"endTime":990.057,"body":"determine how the shadow"},{"startTime":987.183,"endTime":990.057,"body":"falls on a subject.\""},{"startTime":994.76,"endTime":998.185,"body":"So Elmyr de Hory's"},{"startTime":994.76,"endTime":998.185,"body":"optimism in \"F for Fakes\""},{"startTime":998.185,"endTime":1000.67,"body":"provides hope for the possibility"},{"startTime":1000.67,"endTime":1003.358,"body":"that time changes our"},{"startTime":1000.67,"endTime":1003.358,"body":"relationship with fakes."},{"startTime":1003.358,"endTime":1004.81,"body":"That, you know, he argues"},{"startTime":1004.81,"endTime":1007.05,"body":"if they hang on museum walls long enough,"},{"startTime":1007.05,"endTime":1008.39,"body":"then they become real."},{"startTime":1008.39,"endTime":1009.94,"body":"So he's talking about his work."},{"startTime":1011.095,"endTime":1014.52,"body":"And the film itself actually depicts fakes"},{"startTime":1014.52,"endTime":1017.21,"body":"as a bit of a misdirection."},{"startTime":1017.21,"endTime":1018.408,"body":"It's a distraction"},{"startTime":1018.408,"endTime":1020.04,"body":"from us actually thinking about"},{"startTime":1020.04,"endTime":1021.804,"body":"some of the more serious things"},{"startTime":1021.804,"endTime":1024.444,"body":"around questions, around authorship,"},{"startTime":1024.444,"endTime":1026.13,"body":"around authenticity"},{"startTime":1026.13,"endTime":1027.583,"body":"and around experts."},{"startTime":1028.7,"endTime":1031.37,"body":"It's lingering question is"},{"startTime":1031.37,"endTime":1032.83,"body":"who has the authority"},{"startTime":1032.83,"endTime":1034.29,"body":"and actually the power"},{"startTime":1034.29,"endTime":1037.14,"body":"to say that something is real or fake?"},{"startTime":1037.14,"endTime":1039.78,"body":"And who is placed in the shadows"},{"startTime":1039.78,"endTime":1042.03,"body":"and being described as"},{"startTime":1039.78,"endTime":1042.03,"body":"fakes when we do that."},{"startTime":1048.132,"endTime":1050.83,"body":"'F for Fakes\" wasn't well received,"},{"startTime":1050.83,"endTime":1053.84,"body":"it didn't do very well in the Box Office."},{"startTime":1053.84,"endTime":1057.1,"body":"Its lack of clarity and moral certainty"},{"startTime":1057.1,"endTime":1058.731,"body":"around real or fake"},{"startTime":1058.731,"endTime":1061.876,"body":"was in many ways, I"},{"startTime":1058.731,"endTime":1061.876,"body":"think ahead of its time."},{"startTime":1061.876,"endTime":1065.21,"body":"And it received, it was"},{"startTime":1061.876,"endTime":1065.21,"body":"in Europe, actually,"},{"startTime":1065.21,"endTime":1066.34,"body":"it was kind of lauded"},{"startTime":1066.34,"endTime":1067.64,"body":"and people thought it"},{"startTime":1066.34,"endTime":1067.64,"body":"was really interesting,"},{"startTime":1067.64,"endTime":1069.73,"body":"but it was really panned in the US"},{"startTime":1069.73,"endTime":1071.543,"body":"and didn't do well at all."},{"startTime":1071.543,"endTime":1073.17,"body":"And Orson Welles,"},{"startTime":1073.17,"endTime":1076.412,"body":"this sort of explains the"},{"startTime":1073.17,"endTime":1076.412,"body":"fact that it didn't do well"},{"startTime":1076.412,"endTime":1079.444,"body":"by saying that the focus"},{"startTime":1076.412,"endTime":1079.444,"body":"on questioning experts"},{"startTime":1079.444,"endTime":1081.27,"body":"was a problem in the US,"},{"startTime":1081.27,"endTime":1084.35,"body":"because at that time he"},{"startTime":1081.27,"endTime":1084.35,"body":"felt that people were really"},{"startTime":1084.35,"endTime":1086.44,"body":"bought into the idea of"},{"startTime":1084.35,"endTime":1086.44,"body":"the sanctity of experts."},{"startTime":1086.44,"endTime":1088.24,"body":"And they didn't want to question it."},{"startTime":1092.99,"endTime":1095.4,"body":"Over time, we've seen ,"},{"startTime":1095.4,"endTime":1097.55,"body":"what we've seen is while"},{"startTime":1095.4,"endTime":1097.55,"body":"the 20th century was"},{"startTime":1097.55,"endTime":1100.025,"body":"really focused on individual fakers,"},{"startTime":1100.025,"endTime":1104.66,"body":"such as people like Harry"},{"startTime":1100.025,"endTime":1104.66,"body":"Lyme and Elmyr de Hory,"},{"startTime":1104.66,"endTime":1106.28,"body":"increasingly the 21st century,"},{"startTime":1106.28,"endTime":1110.49,"body":"actually the focus on fakes"},{"startTime":1106.28,"endTime":1110.49,"body":"started to look more at systems,"},{"startTime":1110.49,"endTime":1112.83,"body":"institutions and processes that,"},{"startTime":1112.83,"endTime":1116.01,"body":"and that were the creators of fakes,"},{"startTime":1116.01,"endTime":1118.343,"body":"that it was these things"},{"startTime":1116.01,"endTime":1118.343,"body":"that produced fakes."},{"startTime":1120.06,"endTime":1123.16,"body":"We also sort of can see"},{"startTime":1120.06,"endTime":1123.16,"body":"that actually in the 20,"},{"startTime":1123.16,"endTime":1126.4,"body":"the end of the 20th"},{"startTime":1123.16,"endTime":1126.4,"body":"century and the beginning"},{"startTime":1126.4,"endTime":1127.86,"body":"of the 21st century"},{"startTime":1127.86,"endTime":1131.07,"body":"comedy and parody became"},{"startTime":1127.86,"endTime":1131.07,"body":"really important tools"},{"startTime":1131.07,"endTime":1132.763,"body":"in exposing fakery."},{"startTime":1134.41,"endTime":1138.9,"body":"And so the 2018 film \"Dying to Survive\""},{"startTime":1138.9,"endTime":1141.69,"body":"is a really great example of this."},{"startTime":1141.69,"endTime":1144.672,"body":"So I would really recommend"},{"startTime":1141.69,"endTime":1144.672,"body":"this film if you haven't seen it"},{"startTime":1144.672,"endTime":1147.38,"body":"is being critically okay"},{"startTime":1144.672,"endTime":1147.38,"body":"and won lots of awards."},{"startTime":1147.38,"endTime":1149.895,"body":"And it's actually a comedy drama."},{"startTime":1149.895,"endTime":1153.03,"body":"And it is actually a comedy"},{"startTime":1149.895,"endTime":1153.03,"body":"that sometimes people say,"},{"startTime":1153.03,"endTime":1154.3,"body":"something's funny and you think, is it?"},{"startTime":1154.3,"endTime":1156.75,"body":"But actually I was, I did"},{"startTime":1154.3,"endTime":1156.75,"body":"actually laugh at this."},{"startTime":1157.81,"endTime":1159.05,"body":"I dunno what that says about my humor,"},{"startTime":1159.05,"endTime":1160.22,"body":"but I did actually laugh."},{"startTime":1160.22,"endTime":1162.58,"body":"So the film tells us the story of"},{"startTime":1162.58,"endTime":1166.67,"body":"a small drugstore owner,"},{"startTime":1162.58,"endTime":1166.67,"body":"a man called Chen."},{"startTime":1166.67,"endTime":1169.12,"body":"So he's the man in the middle."},{"startTime":1169.12,"endTime":1174.12,"body":"And he tells a story of how he becomes"},{"startTime":1174.61,"endTime":1177.9,"body":"this kind of exclusive"},{"startTime":1174.61,"endTime":1177.9,"body":"selling agent in China"},{"startTime":1177.9,"endTime":1181.21,"body":"for this Indian medicine,"},{"startTime":1181.21,"endTime":1184.013,"body":"a drug that's used to"},{"startTime":1181.21,"endTime":1184.013,"body":"treat cancer patients."},{"startTime":1185.67,"endTime":1187.3,"body":"So at the time,"},{"startTime":1187.3,"endTime":1189.55,"body":"the Chinese patients were suffering with"},{"startTime":1189.55,"endTime":1191.788,"body":"these overpriced medications"},{"startTime":1191.788,"endTime":1195.6,"body":"from this particular Swiss"},{"startTime":1191.788,"endTime":1195.6,"body":"pharmaceutical company."},{"startTime":1195.6,"endTime":1198.33,"body":"And Chen decides to basically,"},{"startTime":1198.33,"endTime":1200.45,"body":"because he can't afford the"},{"startTime":1198.33,"endTime":1200.45,"body":"medication for his father,"},{"startTime":1200.45,"endTime":1201.283,"body":"who's ill."},{"startTime":1201.283,"endTime":1204.184,"body":"He decides to start"},{"startTime":1201.283,"endTime":1204.184,"body":"smuggling this medicine in."},{"startTime":1204.184,"endTime":1207.03,"body":"Initially in really small numbers,"},{"startTime":1207.03,"endTime":1209.703,"body":"and then realize there"},{"startTime":1207.03,"endTime":1209.703,"body":"is a huge market for it."},{"startTime":1210.649,"endTime":1213.55,"body":"He starts by smuggling in what I described"},{"startTime":1213.55,"endTime":1217.32,"body":"as fakes from India."},{"startTime":1217.32,"endTime":1221.49,"body":"He's initially presented as"},{"startTime":1217.32,"endTime":1221.49,"body":"this kind of real deadbeat,"},{"startTime":1221.49,"endTime":1224.08,"body":"you know, deadbeat, dad, husband,"},{"startTime":1224.08,"endTime":1226.5,"body":"all of his stuff he's selling"},{"startTime":1224.08,"endTime":1226.5,"body":"in his shop aren't very good."},{"startTime":1226.5,"endTime":1228.069,"body":"Nobody wants it."},{"startTime":1228.069,"endTime":1230.91,"body":"But then he becomes this kind of savior"},{"startTime":1230.91,"endTime":1234.64,"body":"for the kind of thousands"},{"startTime":1230.91,"endTime":1234.64,"body":"of Chinese patients"},{"startTime":1234.64,"endTime":1238.55,"body":"with cancer who can't"},{"startTime":1234.64,"endTime":1238.55,"body":"afford these medications."},{"startTime":1238.55,"endTime":1241.64,"body":"So the film really spends a lot of time"},{"startTime":1241.64,"endTime":1243.58,"body":"looking at not only the protests"},{"startTime":1243.58,"endTime":1245.47,"body":"against pharmaceutical companies,"},{"startTime":1245.47,"endTime":1248.1,"body":"but also the fact that the"},{"startTime":1245.47,"endTime":1248.1,"body":"real, the genuine medicine"},{"startTime":1248.1,"endTime":1250.46,"body":"costs about 4,000 yen."},{"startTime":1250.46,"endTime":1252.49,"body":"But the medicine that he's"},{"startTime":1250.46,"endTime":1252.49,"body":"bringing over from India"},{"startTime":1252.49,"endTime":1253.973,"body":"costs 2000 yen."},{"startTime":1254.83,"endTime":1259.83,"body":"And yeah, so we really hear about"},{"startTime":1259.85,"endTime":1262.38,"body":"this kind of incredible"},{"startTime":1259.85,"endTime":1262.38,"body":"disparity in prices."},{"startTime":1262.38,"endTime":1266.163,"body":"And it asks questions around"},{"startTime":1262.38,"endTime":1266.163,"body":"a kind of ethics of that."},{"startTime":1267.21,"endTime":1268.72,"body":"The film is interesting"},{"startTime":1267.21,"endTime":1268.72,"body":"in lots of different ways,"},{"startTime":1268.72,"endTime":1270.98,"body":"but the personal I found"},{"startTime":1268.72,"endTime":1270.98,"body":"the most interesting"},{"startTime":1270.98,"endTime":1272.45,"body":"was the priest at the end"},{"startTime":1273.37,"endTime":1276.02,"body":"because the priest really"},{"startTime":1273.37,"endTime":1276.02,"body":"acts as our moral barometer"},{"startTime":1276.02,"endTime":1279.49,"body":"throughout the film and provides us with"},{"startTime":1279.49,"endTime":1282.82,"body":"a kind of a sense constantly"},{"startTime":1279.49,"endTime":1282.82,"body":"of right and wrong."},{"startTime":1282.82,"endTime":1284.33,"body":"So at the beginning,"},{"startTime":1284.33,"endTime":1288.26,"body":"when Chen wants to access the patients"},{"startTime":1288.26,"endTime":1292.806,"body":"in the priest congregation,"},{"startTime":1288.26,"endTime":1292.806,"body":"to sell his medicines to them,"},{"startTime":1292.806,"endTime":1295.14,"body":"and the priest says, no it's illegal."},{"startTime":1295.14,"endTime":1296.74,"body":"I'm not going to do it."},{"startTime":1296.74,"endTime":1298.45,"body":"But over time,"},{"startTime":1298.45,"endTime":1300.26,"body":"the priest starts to"},{"startTime":1298.45,"endTime":1300.26,"body":"really change his position"},{"startTime":1300.26,"endTime":1302.1,"body":"because in conversation with Chen,"},{"startTime":1302.1,"endTime":1304.08,"body":"Chen says, well, you know,"},{"startTime":1304.08,"endTime":1305.51,"body":"is it wrong to do something illegal"},{"startTime":1305.51,"endTime":1307.36,"body":"if it's saving lives?"},{"startTime":1307.36,"endTime":1309.33,"body":"And so that's when we really start,"},{"startTime":1309.33,"endTime":1310.94,"body":"the film really starts to explore"},{"startTime":1310.94,"endTime":1313.053,"body":"this kind of moral attention."},{"startTime":1314.032,"endTime":1318.74,"body":"The priests themselves"},{"startTime":1314.032,"endTime":1318.74,"body":"starts to see that the ways"},{"startTime":1318.74,"endTime":1322.9,"body":"in which the pricing or"},{"startTime":1318.74,"endTime":1322.9,"body":"pharmaceutical products is done"},{"startTime":1322.9,"endTime":1324.61,"body":"is in itself a sin."},{"startTime":1324.61,"endTime":1326.98,"body":"And he sees this sin as a structural sin,"},{"startTime":1326.98,"endTime":1329.0,"body":"a sin that's essentially organized"},{"startTime":1329.0,"endTime":1331.673,"body":"where the legal system,"},{"startTime":1329.0,"endTime":1331.673,"body":"the healthcare system,"},{"startTime":1331.673,"endTime":1334.69,"body":"governments all act against the poor"},{"startTime":1334.69,"endTime":1335.523,"body":"to keep them poor,"},{"startTime":1335.523,"endTime":1338.13,"body":"but essentially to kill them."},{"startTime":1338.13,"endTime":1342.604,"body":"And so we start to see"},{"startTime":1338.13,"endTime":1342.604,"body":"the kind of immorality"},{"startTime":1342.604,"endTime":1346.736,"body":"of the real and the morality of the fake."},{"startTime":1346.736,"endTime":1348.72,"body":"So by that, I mean,"},{"startTime":1348.72,"endTime":1351.283,"body":"immorality of the genuine medicine"},{"startTime":1351.283,"endTime":1356.283,"body":"that the pharmaceutical"},{"startTime":1351.283,"endTime":1356.283,"body":"companies are trying to sell."},{"startTime":1356.395,"endTime":1361.29,"body":"And the morality of the fake medicine"},{"startTime":1361.29,"endTime":1363.563,"body":"that Chen brings over from India."},{"startTime":1366.52,"endTime":1369.21,"body":"Like \"The Third Man,\" \"Dying to Survive\""},{"startTime":1369.21,"endTime":1371.31,"body":"actually is based on a true story."},{"startTime":1371.31,"endTime":1375.6,"body":"The film is based on a"},{"startTime":1371.31,"endTime":1375.6,"body":"Chinese leukemia patient"},{"startTime":1375.6,"endTime":1376.86,"body":"called Lu Yong"},{"startTime":1376.86,"endTime":1381.7,"body":"who started smuggling"},{"startTime":1376.86,"endTime":1381.7,"body":"in medicine from India,"},{"startTime":1383.425,"endTime":1386.52,"body":"and then eventually started giving it"},{"startTime":1386.52,"endTime":1389.343,"body":"to other cancer sufferers."},{"startTime":1393.34,"endTime":1395.07,"body":"So from this film,"},{"startTime":1395.07,"endTime":1396.65,"body":"we really start to ask questions around"},{"startTime":1396.65,"endTime":1397.49,"body":"who does the,"},{"startTime":1397.49,"endTime":1400.58,"body":"who benefits from these"},{"startTime":1397.49,"endTime":1400.58,"body":"ideas of real and fake,"},{"startTime":1400.58,"endTime":1402.753,"body":"and who benefits from"},{"startTime":1400.58,"endTime":1402.753,"body":"these kind of categories."},{"startTime":1409.72,"endTime":1412.84,"body":"While big pharma is kind of"},{"startTime":1409.72,"endTime":1412.84,"body":"criticized in \"Dying to Survive\""},{"startTime":1412.84,"endTime":1415.27,"body":"in the real story behind \"The Third Man,\""},{"startTime":1415.27,"endTime":1417.17,"body":"big pharma was actually the hero."},{"startTime":1417.17,"endTime":1421.407,"body":"So this is a newspaper clipping from 1946,"},{"startTime":1421.407,"endTime":1426.17,"body":"which actually gives some"},{"startTime":1421.407,"endTime":1426.17,"body":"insights into the real story"},{"startTime":1426.17,"endTime":1428.664,"body":"that was underlined \"The Third Man.\""},{"startTime":1428.664,"endTime":1433.26,"body":"So in 1941, the US and the UK government"},{"startTime":1433.26,"endTime":1437.185,"body":"actually really issued a challenge to"},{"startTime":1437.185,"endTime":1440.0,"body":"the pharmaceutical industry to just try"},{"startTime":1440.0,"endTime":1444.788,"body":"to produce cheap, mass produce penicillin."},{"startTime":1444.788,"endTime":1448.74,"body":"And Pfizer was a company that"},{"startTime":1444.788,"endTime":1448.74,"body":"actually was able to do that"},{"startTime":1448.74,"endTime":1449.97,"body":"because it already had the infrastructure"},{"startTime":1449.97,"endTime":1452.13,"body":"was making other things at the time"},{"startTime":1452.13,"endTime":1453.32,"body":"was able to do that quickly."},{"startTime":1453.32,"endTime":1455.74,"body":"And this mass production"},{"startTime":1453.32,"endTime":1455.74,"body":"of penicillin was,"},{"startTime":1455.74,"endTime":1458.41,"body":"seemed to be responsible"},{"startTime":1455.74,"endTime":1458.41,"body":"for essentially stamping out"},{"startTime":1458.41,"endTime":1460.24,"body":"the fake penicillin trade,"},{"startTime":1460.24,"endTime":1463.68,"body":"because what it meant was it"},{"startTime":1460.24,"endTime":1463.68,"body":"became really unprofitable"},{"startTime":1463.68,"endTime":1466.29,"body":"to have fake penicillin."},{"startTime":1466.29,"endTime":1469.215,"body":"There was a good enough supply"},{"startTime":1466.29,"endTime":1469.215,"body":"of the genuine medicines"},{"startTime":1469.215,"endTime":1473.14,"body":"and they were cheap and there"},{"startTime":1469.215,"endTime":1473.14,"body":"was enough to meet demand."},{"startTime":1473.14,"endTime":1477.041,"body":"So increasing access"},{"startTime":1473.14,"endTime":1477.041,"body":"to genuine penicillin,"},{"startTime":1477.041,"endTime":1480.884,"body":"which needed less money was actually"},{"startTime":1480.884,"endTime":1485.143,"body":"the reason why we saw the"},{"startTime":1480.884,"endTime":1485.143,"body":"decline of fake penicillin."},{"startTime":1486.44,"endTime":1489.674,"body":"While big pharma companies like Pfizer,"},{"startTime":1489.674,"endTime":1492.148,"body":"once hero was of the 20th century"},{"startTime":1492.148,"endTime":1495.29,"body":"towards the end of that century,"},{"startTime":1495.29,"endTime":1498.55,"body":"they became kind of mired"},{"startTime":1495.29,"endTime":1498.55,"body":"in numerous scandals,"},{"startTime":1498.55,"endTime":1500.086,"body":"accusations of fakery"},{"startTime":1500.086,"endTime":1503.793,"body":"and the focus on of conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":1504.65,"endTime":1508.787,"body":"So the next couple of films, one is called"},{"startTime":1508.787,"endTime":1510.64,"body":"\"Blood and Henna.\""},{"startTime":1510.64,"endTime":1513.76,"body":"This is a Nigerian film"},{"startTime":1510.64,"endTime":1513.76,"body":"based on the true story"},{"startTime":1513.76,"endTime":1516.675,"body":"of the 1996 Pfizer clinical test study"},{"startTime":1516.675,"endTime":1520.75,"body":"of new antibiotic Trovan in Kano, Nigeria,"},{"startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1524.81,"body":"which resulted in the"},{"startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1524.81,"body":"deaths of 11 children."},{"startTime":1524.81,"endTime":1528.1,"body":"This study was actually conducted"},{"startTime":1524.81,"endTime":1528.1,"body":"without informed consent"},{"startTime":1528.1,"endTime":1529.8,"body":"and with fake documents."},{"startTime":1529.8,"endTime":1534.49,"body":"And according to Ben Goldacre"},{"startTime":1529.8,"endTime":1534.49,"body":"in his book, \"Bad Pharma,\""},{"startTime":1534.49,"endTime":1535.48,"body":"Pfizer argued actually,"},{"startTime":1535.48,"endTime":1540.313,"body":"he didn't need informed consent"},{"startTime":1535.48,"endTime":1540.313,"body":"for drug trials in Africa."},{"startTime":1541.55,"endTime":1543.09,"body":"Alongside earlier films,"},{"startTime":1543.09,"endTime":1544.39,"body":"such as \" The Constant Gardener,\""},{"startTime":1544.39,"endTime":1548.403,"body":"whose plot is also based"},{"startTime":1544.39,"endTime":1548.403,"body":"on this Nigerian case"},{"startTime":1548.403,"endTime":1550.797,"body":"clinical trial."},{"startTime":1550.797,"endTime":1553.53,"body":"Pharmaceutical companies"},{"startTime":1550.797,"endTime":1553.53,"body":"were really running on a kind"},{"startTime":1553.53,"endTime":1556.91,"body":"of a trust deficit towards"},{"startTime":1553.53,"endTime":1556.91,"body":"the end of the 20th century"},{"startTime":1556.91,"endTime":1558.693,"body":"and into the 20th first century."},{"startTime":1559.83,"endTime":1561.211,"body":"But in the 21st century,"},{"startTime":1561.211,"endTime":1563.12,"body":"the theme of fake medicines"},{"startTime":1563.12,"endTime":1568.042,"body":"actually continued albeit with"},{"startTime":1563.12,"endTime":1568.042,"body":"kind of greater complexity."},{"startTime":1568.042,"endTime":1571.24,"body":"We started to see big pharma"},{"startTime":1568.042,"endTime":1571.24,"body":"really ringing the alarm"},{"startTime":1571.24,"endTime":1572.845,"body":"about fake medicines,"},{"startTime":1572.845,"endTime":1575.8,"body":"but at the same time and in"},{"startTime":1572.845,"endTime":1575.8,"body":"particular fake medicines"},{"startTime":1575.8,"endTime":1578.275,"body":"coming from India and China,"},{"startTime":1578.275,"endTime":1583.275,"body":"but these came at time and"},{"startTime":1578.275,"endTime":1583.275,"body":"actually trust in big pharma"},{"startTime":1584.88,"endTime":1585.813,"body":"was shaky."},{"startTime":1586.95,"endTime":1588.65,"body":"And what we've learned about fakes is that"},{"startTime":1588.65,"endTime":1591.354,"body":"they exist in a trust deficit"},{"startTime":1591.354,"endTime":1594.89,"body":"where confidence in institutions are low"},{"startTime":1594.89,"endTime":1597.723,"body":"and when there's economic"},{"startTime":1594.89,"endTime":1597.723,"body":"and moral uncertainty."},{"startTime":1600.4,"endTime":1603.58,"body":"So here we are."},{"startTime":1603.58,"endTime":1606.16,"body":"In the last few years,"},{"startTime":1606.16,"endTime":1609.0,"body":"especially in relation"},{"startTime":1606.16,"endTime":1609.0,"body":"to the COVID 19 pandemic,"},{"startTime":1609.0,"endTime":1612.06,"body":"we've witnessed actually"},{"startTime":1609.0,"endTime":1612.06,"body":"an avalanche of fakes"},{"startTime":1612.06,"endTime":1614.8,"body":"from this and misinformation,"},{"startTime":1614.8,"endTime":1617.08,"body":"everything from fake vaccine passports"},{"startTime":1617.08,"endTime":1618.943,"body":"to the vaccines themselves."},{"startTime":1622.82,"endTime":1625.33,"body":"And really at the start of the discussion,"},{"startTime":1625.33,"endTime":1627.64,"body":"we had Elmyr de Hory, asking us, you know,"},{"startTime":1627.64,"endTime":1630.36,"body":"can the fake ever move out"},{"startTime":1627.64,"endTime":1630.36,"body":"of the realm of the fake?"},{"startTime":1630.36,"endTime":1632.133,"body":"Can the fake ever become real?"},{"startTime":1632.98,"endTime":1635.954,"body":"More recently, we've actually"},{"startTime":1632.98,"endTime":1635.954,"body":"got the reverse problem."},{"startTime":1635.954,"endTime":1638.0,"body":"What we've got is a problem where"},{"startTime":1638.0,"endTime":1642.323,"body":"we are witnessing the real"},{"startTime":1638.0,"endTime":1642.323,"body":"being treated as fake."},{"startTime":1645.52,"endTime":1647.34,"body":"I want to take the case"},{"startTime":1645.52,"endTime":1647.34,"body":"of a colleague of mine,"},{"startTime":1647.34,"endTime":1648.413,"body":"Dr. Elisa Granato."},{"startTime":1650.24,"endTime":1655.24,"body":"So on the 25 of April, 2020"},{"startTime":1655.31,"endTime":1659.75,"body":"microbiologist, Dr. Elisa"},{"startTime":1655.31,"endTime":1659.75,"body":"Granato woke up to the news"},{"startTime":1659.75,"endTime":1661.693,"body":"that she had sadly passed away."},{"startTime":1662.61,"endTime":1665.8,"body":"She read that the cause"},{"startTime":1662.61,"endTime":1665.8,"body":"of her death was unclear,"},{"startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1668.6,"body":"but learned that it had"},{"startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1668.6,"body":"global significance."},{"startTime":1668.6,"endTime":1670.5,"body":"She was the first person to volunteer in"},{"startTime":1670.5,"endTime":1672.743,"body":"Oxford COVID 19 trial."},{"startTime":1672.743,"endTime":1676.92,"body":"What she had, she had"},{"startTime":1672.743,"endTime":1676.92,"body":"experienced complications,"},{"startTime":1676.92,"endTime":1679.37,"body":"only hours after receiving the vaccine"},{"startTime":1679.37,"endTime":1681.413,"body":"and sadly died two days later."},{"startTime":1682.93,"endTime":1684.893,"body":"The news of her death went viral."},{"startTime":1685.73,"endTime":1688.22,"body":"It went across major"},{"startTime":1685.73,"endTime":1688.22,"body":"social media platforms"},{"startTime":1688.22,"endTime":1690.303,"body":"and was picked up by mainstream media."},{"startTime":1691.2,"endTime":1693.37,"body":"Her friends and families"},{"startTime":1691.2,"endTime":1693.37,"body":"were said to be shocked"},{"startTime":1693.37,"endTime":1694.333,"body":"and saddened."},{"startTime":1695.64,"endTime":1698.97,"body":"That morning, Elisa"},{"startTime":1695.64,"endTime":1698.97,"body":"Granato took to Twitter"},{"startTime":1698.97,"endTime":1701.58,"body":"to declare there's nothing"},{"startTime":1698.97,"endTime":1701.58,"body":"quite like waking up"},{"startTime":1701.58,"endTime":1703.41,"body":"to an fake article on your death."},{"startTime":1703.41,"endTime":1704.843,"body":"I'm doing fine, everyone."},{"startTime":1705.97,"endTime":1708.323,"body":"Unfortunately, that didn't do enough."},{"startTime":1710.95,"endTime":1714.0,"body":"She continued to be"},{"startTime":1710.95,"endTime":1714.0,"body":"bombarded with flowers,"},{"startTime":1714.0,"endTime":1717.98,"body":"apologies, sympathies."},{"startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1721.01,"body":"People started to gather"},{"startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1721.01,"body":"around to mourn her death."},{"startTime":1721.01,"endTime":1724.072,"body":"She then took up to her Twitter profile,"},{"startTime":1724.072,"endTime":1728.976,"body":"changed it to say, Dr."},{"startTime":1724.072,"endTime":1728.976,"body":"Elisa Granato 100% alive."},{"startTime":1728.976,"endTime":1732.443,"body":"But for many, this rebuttal was in fact,"},{"startTime":1733.28,"endTime":1735.584,"body":"just more evidence of a conspiracy"},{"startTime":1735.584,"endTime":1738.41,"body":"that was totally designed"},{"startTime":1735.584,"endTime":1738.41,"body":"to conceal her death"},{"startTime":1738.41,"endTime":1739.383,"body":"from the public."},{"startTime":1740.23,"endTime":1743.367,"body":"Her tweets declaring"},{"startTime":1740.23,"endTime":1743.367,"body":"herself to be alive and well"},{"startTime":1743.367,"endTime":1747.73,"body":"were read with as a familiar"},{"startTime":1743.367,"endTime":1747.73,"body":"tactic of any cover up."},{"startTime":1747.73,"endTime":1749.37,"body":"They would say that wouldn't they?"},{"startTime":1749.37,"endTime":1751.113,"body":"It was all part of a big denial."},{"startTime":1752.44,"endTime":1753.433,"body":"Today for me, I mean,"},{"startTime":1753.433,"endTime":1755.235,"body":"I actually spoke to her last week,"},{"startTime":1755.235,"endTime":1758.01,"body":"so she's very much alive"},{"startTime":1758.01,"endTime":1761.0,"body":"and she's got a really good"},{"startTime":1758.01,"endTime":1761.0,"body":"sense of humor as well."},{"startTime":1761.0,"endTime":1766.0,"body":"But today, Dr. Granato's death"},{"startTime":1761.0,"endTime":1766.0,"body":"life is really fascinating"},{"startTime":1767.267,"endTime":1769.68,"body":"and it gives a real fascinating insight"},{"startTime":1769.68,"endTime":1772.43,"body":"into the strength of"},{"startTime":1769.68,"endTime":1772.43,"body":"these kind of conspiracies"},{"startTime":1772.43,"endTime":1775.17,"body":"and the strength of"},{"startTime":1772.43,"endTime":1775.17,"body":"feeling about collusions"},{"startTime":1775.17,"endTime":1778.86,"body":"between big pharma, governments"},{"startTime":1775.17,"endTime":1778.86,"body":"and the powerful elites"},{"startTime":1778.86,"endTime":1782.38,"body":"who skew systems,"},{"startTime":1778.86,"endTime":1782.38,"body":"institutions, and processes."},{"startTime":1782.38,"endTime":1784.387,"body":"They produce fake narratives"},{"startTime":1784.387,"endTime":1787.177,"body":"and what these conspiracies have done"},{"startTime":1787.177,"endTime":1789.1,"body":"and that they've often taken things"},{"startTime":1789.1,"endTime":1793.9,"body":"that we have had a consensus on as real"},{"startTime":1793.9,"endTime":1797.07,"body":"and opened them up to"},{"startTime":1793.9,"endTime":1797.07,"body":"certain types of questions."},{"startTime":1797.07,"endTime":1798.95,"body":"So they've taken proven theories"},{"startTime":1798.95,"endTime":1801.78,"body":"and medicines that we all agree are safe,"},{"startTime":1801.78,"endTime":1805.17,"body":"and they've opened those up"},{"startTime":1801.78,"endTime":1805.17,"body":"and treated them as fake."},{"startTime":1805.17,"endTime":1806.48,"body":"What the case study,"},{"startTime":1806.48,"endTime":1809.83,"body":"what Elisa Granato has shown is that"},{"startTime":1809.83,"endTime":1813.32,"body":"it's in fact really difficult"},{"startTime":1809.83,"endTime":1813.32,"body":"once this has been decided,"},{"startTime":1813.32,"endTime":1815.3,"body":"something's been decided has happened"},{"startTime":1815.3,"endTime":1817.35,"body":"to move out of the,"},{"startTime":1817.35,"endTime":1821.0,"body":"to dissuade people that you are real"},{"startTime":1821.87,"endTime":1824.33,"body":"when they think that you've, you are dead."},{"startTime":1824.33,"endTime":1827.67,"body":"I mean, she has fake book pages"},{"startTime":1827.67,"endTime":1829.48,"body":"with thousands of people who are"},{"startTime":1829.48,"endTime":1832.69,"body":"kind of campaigning to have"},{"startTime":1829.48,"endTime":1832.69,"body":"her made into a martyr."},{"startTime":1832.69,"endTime":1833.523,"body":"People meet,"},{"startTime":1833.523,"endTime":1837.484,"body":"have been meeting to"},{"startTime":1833.523,"endTime":1837.484,"body":"mourn her death online"},{"startTime":1837.484,"endTime":1839.7,"body":"all over the world."},{"startTime":1839.7,"endTime":1842.04,"body":"Places she herself has"},{"startTime":1839.7,"endTime":1842.04,"body":"never even been to before"},{"startTime":1842.04,"endTime":1845.08,"body":"people meet regularly to"},{"startTime":1842.04,"endTime":1845.08,"body":"talk about what they can do"},{"startTime":1845.08,"endTime":1847.2,"body":"to get justice for her."},{"startTime":1847.2,"endTime":1849.37,"body":"And she sent me some of,"},{"startTime":1849.37,"endTime":1850.84,"body":"she showed me some of the paintings"},{"startTime":1850.84,"endTime":1852.72,"body":"that get delivered to her office,"},{"startTime":1852.72,"endTime":1854.33,"body":"life size paintings of her,"},{"startTime":1854.33,"endTime":1857.04,"body":"people trying to commemorate her,"},{"startTime":1857.04,"endTime":1860.793,"body":"and she's walking around alive and well."},{"startTime":1864.76,"endTime":1865.87,"body":"I also wanted to share this."},{"startTime":1865.87,"endTime":1868.053,"body":"I just couldn't actually help myself."},{"startTime":1868.98,"endTime":1871.02,"body":"I found this so funny"},{"startTime":1868.98,"endTime":1871.02,"body":"for a number of reasons."},{"startTime":1871.02,"endTime":1872.85,"body":"This is an email that was sent to me"},{"startTime":1872.85,"endTime":1874.0,"body":"because I was actually,"},{"startTime":1874.986,"endTime":1878.49,"body":"I was one of the subcommittees"},{"startTime":1874.986,"endTime":1878.49,"body":"of Sage during COVID 19."},{"startTime":1878.49,"endTime":1883.43,"body":"And there was something so"},{"startTime":1878.49,"endTime":1883.43,"body":"very English about this,"},{"startTime":1883.43,"endTime":1884.64,"body":"I couldn't help it."},{"startTime":1884.64,"endTime":1886.57,"body":"So this is completely insulting."},{"startTime":1886.57,"endTime":1887.864,"body":"It tells me, you know,"},{"startTime":1887.864,"endTime":1888.97,"body":"that you can nudge your vaccine passport"},{"startTime":1888.97,"endTime":1890.94,"body":"as far up your back passage as it will go."},{"startTime":1890.94,"endTime":1892.479,"body":"Perhaps..."},{"startTime":1892.479,"endTime":1893.92,"body":"So then they go on to apologize."},{"startTime":1893.92,"endTime":1895.83,"body":"But what I really love"},{"startTime":1893.92,"endTime":1895.83,"body":"and what I think is really"},{"startTime":1895.83,"endTime":1897.56,"body":"fascinating about this is how it ends"},{"startTime":1897.56,"endTime":1899.03,"body":"with have a lovely weekend,"},{"startTime":1899.03,"endTime":1901.57,"body":"you know, after this barge of insults,"},{"startTime":1901.57,"endTime":1903.47,"body":"which I just think is"},{"startTime":1901.57,"endTime":1903.47,"body":"such an English thing."},{"startTime":1903.47,"endTime":1905.73,"body":"But so basically the accusation here"},{"startTime":1905.73,"endTime":1907.17,"body":"is because I was on the committee"},{"startTime":1907.17,"endTime":1908.84,"body":"and I'm funded by Wellcome"},{"startTime":1908.84,"endTime":1911.5,"body":"that I'm somehow part of this cabal."},{"startTime":1911.5,"endTime":1912.79,"body":"I am funded by Wellcome."},{"startTime":1912.79,"endTime":1913.85,"body":"And I am on the committee."},{"startTime":1913.85,"endTime":1915.093,"body":"Those things are true."},{"startTime":1916.05,"endTime":1917.222,"body":"I can vouch for that."},{"startTime":1917.222,"endTime":1918.33,"body":"And there other people can vouch for that,"},{"startTime":1918.33,"endTime":1920.05,"body":"but I have never had a conversation"},{"startTime":1920.05,"endTime":1922.18,"body":"with any of the other people"},{"startTime":1920.05,"endTime":1922.18,"body":"who are copied in this email,"},{"startTime":1922.18,"endTime":1923.97,"body":"including included Chris Whitty"},{"startTime":1923.97,"endTime":1927.86,"body":"and Jeremy Farrar about vaccine passports."},{"startTime":1927.86,"endTime":1930.13,"body":"But how do I prove that"},{"startTime":1927.86,"endTime":1930.13,"body":"to a group of people"},{"startTime":1930.13,"endTime":1931.617,"body":"who have convinced themselves"},{"startTime":1931.617,"endTime":1936.617,"body":"that I am having these kind"},{"startTime":1931.617,"endTime":1936.617,"body":"of clandestine meetings"},{"startTime":1937.636,"endTime":1939.75,"body":"about my work?"},{"startTime":1939.75,"endTime":1941.991,"body":"And so this is what I"},{"startTime":1939.75,"endTime":1941.991,"body":"think is really fascinating"},{"startTime":1941.991,"endTime":1944.9,"body":"is when you find yourself entangled"},{"startTime":1944.9,"endTime":1946.9,"body":"in these kind of conspiracy theories,"},{"startTime":1946.9,"endTime":1950.183,"body":"I mean, I am at the very, very sort of"},{"startTime":1950.183,"endTime":1951.59,"body":"I'm small fry."},{"startTime":1951.59,"endTime":1953.78,"body":"I mean, no, one's really"},{"startTime":1951.59,"endTime":1953.78,"body":"caring about me too much,"},{"startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1956.58,"body":"but when you know,"},{"startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1956.58,"body":"somebody like Elisa Granato"},{"startTime":1956.58,"endTime":1958.99,"body":"when you find yourself in"},{"startTime":1956.58,"endTime":1958.99,"body":"these sort of entanglements,"},{"startTime":1958.99,"endTime":1960.83,"body":"how do you get yourself out?"},{"startTime":1960.83,"endTime":1963.46,"body":"How do you move from this space"},{"startTime":1963.46,"endTime":1966.41,"body":"into trying to prove that you are real?"},{"startTime":1966.41,"endTime":1968.91,"body":"And this is one of the"},{"startTime":1966.41,"endTime":1968.91,"body":"things that's so difficult."},{"startTime":1970.62,"endTime":1975.23,"body":"So what we have now is this space I"},{"startTime":1975.23,"endTime":1978.803,"body":"should been described as"},{"startTime":1975.23,"endTime":1978.803,"body":"a kind of hybrid space."},{"startTime":1980.24,"endTime":1983.94,"body":"So most interestingly, like the painter,"},{"startTime":1983.94,"endTime":1986.103,"body":"like the paintings of the"},{"startTime":1983.94,"endTime":1986.103,"body":"kind of master art forgers"},{"startTime":1986.103,"endTime":1988.003,"body":"that I discussed at the beginning,"},{"startTime":1991.96,"endTime":1995.83,"body":"most of these stories actually"},{"startTime":1991.96,"endTime":1995.83,"body":"contain elements of truth."},{"startTime":1995.83,"endTime":1997.14,"body":"There's some elements of real in it."},{"startTime":1997.14,"endTime":1999.208,"body":"Yes. I'm funded by the Wellcome."},{"startTime":1999.208,"endTime":2001.684,"body":"Yes, I was on this committee,"},{"startTime":2001.684,"endTime":2005.46,"body":"but they have fake things"},{"startTime":2001.684,"endTime":2005.46,"body":"that are intertwined in it."},{"startTime":2005.46,"endTime":2007.84,"body":"So we no longer have this things where"},{"startTime":2007.84,"endTime":2011.45,"body":"things can be objectively"},{"startTime":2007.84,"endTime":2011.45,"body":"dismissed as rubbish."},{"startTime":2011.45,"endTime":2013.36,"body":"We have to almost kind of do the work"},{"startTime":2013.36,"endTime":2015.873,"body":"to disentangle the reel from the fake."},{"startTime":2016.9,"endTime":2020.1,"body":"And so what we have now is"},{"startTime":2016.9,"endTime":2020.1,"body":"a very similar situation"},{"startTime":2020.1,"endTime":2024.437,"body":"where the people producing"},{"startTime":2020.1,"endTime":2024.437,"body":"fake news stories"},{"startTime":2024.437,"endTime":2027.88,"body":"or conspiracy theories"},{"startTime":2024.437,"endTime":2027.88,"body":"become very adept at knowing"},{"startTime":2027.88,"endTime":2030.54,"body":"exactly what their market"},{"startTime":2027.88,"endTime":2030.54,"body":"want and the things that"},{"startTime":2031.47,"endTime":2033.19,"body":"can be easily proved."},{"startTime":2033.19,"endTime":2034.26,"body":"So somebody Googles me,"},{"startTime":2034.26,"endTime":2035.61,"body":"they can find out that I am,"},{"startTime":2035.61,"endTime":2036.54,"body":"funded by the Wellcome,"},{"startTime":2036.54,"endTime":2039.27,"body":"they can find out that"},{"startTime":2036.54,"endTime":2039.27,"body":"I am based in Oxford,"},{"startTime":2039.27,"endTime":2042.14,"body":"which is where Jeremy"},{"startTime":2039.27,"endTime":2042.14,"body":"Farrar was also based."},{"startTime":2042.14,"endTime":2043.87,"body":"He is the director of the Wellcome,"},{"startTime":2043.87,"endTime":2044.703,"body":"so you can,"},{"startTime":2044.703,"endTime":2048.52,"body":"those things are true, but"},{"startTime":2044.703,"endTime":2048.52,"body":"everything else is not true."},{"startTime":2048.52,"endTime":2052.822,"body":"And so that nuance is really"},{"startTime":2048.52,"endTime":2052.822,"body":"difficult to communicate."},{"startTime":2052.822,"endTime":2055.309,"body":"Just like the picture of Elisa Granato,"},{"startTime":2055.309,"endTime":2059.2,"body":"she was one of the first people"},{"startTime":2055.309,"endTime":2059.2,"body":"to get the COVID vaccine,"},{"startTime":2059.2,"endTime":2060.04,"body":"but she's alive."},{"startTime":2060.04,"endTime":2062.25,"body":"And how does she prove that"},{"startTime":2062.25,"endTime":2065.39,"body":"to all the thousands of people"},{"startTime":2062.25,"endTime":2065.39,"body":"that meet regularly online?"},{"startTime":2065.39,"endTime":2069.26,"body":"She actually issued a video which went out"},{"startTime":2069.26,"endTime":2073.09,"body":"to people to say, hi,"},{"startTime":2069.26,"endTime":2073.09,"body":"I'm Dr. Elisa Granato"},{"startTime":2073.09,"endTime":2075.65,"body":"just to let you all"},{"startTime":2073.09,"endTime":2075.65,"body":"know I'm actually alive,"},{"startTime":2075.65,"endTime":2076.97,"body":"which must be a sentence."},{"startTime":2076.97,"endTime":2079.84,"body":"she never thought she'd be"},{"startTime":2076.97,"endTime":2079.84,"body":"ever saying in her life."},{"startTime":2079.84,"endTime":2081.18,"body":"And no one believed it."},{"startTime":2081.18,"endTime":2082.75,"body":"They were like, it's a deep fake."},{"startTime":2082.75,"endTime":2085.09,"body":"So then she was completely, you know,"},{"startTime":2085.09,"endTime":2086.53,"body":"back to square one."},{"startTime":2086.53,"endTime":2088.788,"body":"So how do we get ourselves"},{"startTime":2088.788,"endTime":2093.788,"body":"from having interesting"},{"startTime":2088.788,"endTime":2093.788,"body":"discussions about fakes,"},{"startTime":2095.08,"endTime":2097.81,"body":"but also not seeing everything as a fake"},{"startTime":2097.81,"endTime":2099.38,"body":"and how do we get ourselves"},{"startTime":2100.269,"endTime":2102.64,"body":"to take seriously people's concerns,"},{"startTime":2102.64,"endTime":2105.933,"body":"but not kind of get mired"},{"startTime":2102.64,"endTime":2105.933,"body":"into conspiracy theories?"},{"startTime":2107.695,"endTime":2112.56,"body":"And so what becomes really clear is that"},{"startTime":2112.56,"endTime":2114.95,"body":"increasingly the fake is really difficult"},{"startTime":2114.95,"endTime":2118.89,"body":"to disentangle from the real,"},{"startTime":2118.89,"endTime":2120.67,"body":"and it really requires trust."},{"startTime":2120.67,"endTime":2124.29,"body":"And a lot of trust in"},{"startTime":2120.67,"endTime":2124.29,"body":"external organizations,"},{"startTime":2124.29,"endTime":2126.583,"body":"the people who are"},{"startTime":2124.29,"endTime":2126.583,"body":"supposed to be custodians."},{"startTime":2128.697,"endTime":2132.68,"body":"What's kind of dangerous at"},{"startTime":2128.697,"endTime":2132.68,"body":"the moment is when the real"},{"startTime":2132.68,"endTime":2134.78,"body":"and effect become kind"},{"startTime":2132.68,"endTime":2134.78,"body":"of a matter of opinion"},{"startTime":2134.78,"endTime":2136.003,"body":"and perspective."},{"startTime":2136.92,"endTime":2138.3,"body":"But at the same time,"},{"startTime":2138.3,"endTime":2141.723,"body":"they do reveal certain"},{"startTime":2138.3,"endTime":2141.723,"body":"opinions and perspectives."},{"startTime":2144.195,"endTime":2145.84,"body":"And so I think,"},{"startTime":2145.84,"endTime":2147.747,"body":"what they ask us for sometimes is"},{"startTime":2147.747,"endTime":2151.66,"body":"greater trust and greater"},{"startTime":2147.747,"endTime":2151.66,"body":"confidence in institutions."},{"startTime":2151.66,"endTime":2154.32,"body":"And they actually ask for"},{"startTime":2151.66,"endTime":2154.32,"body":"kind of core to action"},{"startTime":2154.32,"endTime":2157.65,"body":"for those institutions to make"},{"startTime":2154.32,"endTime":2157.65,"body":"themselves more transparent,"},{"startTime":2157.65,"endTime":2158.57,"body":"more trustworthy,"},{"startTime":2158.57,"endTime":2159.92,"body":"and to give us more confidence in them"},{"startTime":2159.92,"endTime":2161.323,"body":"so that we believe in them."},{"startTime":2164.36,"endTime":2166.39,"body":"I found actually trying"},{"startTime":2164.36,"endTime":2166.39,"body":"to conclude this talk"},{"startTime":2166.39,"endTime":2167.423,"body":"really difficult."},{"startTime":2169.17,"endTime":2171.89,"body":"Just 'cause actually"},{"startTime":2169.17,"endTime":2171.89,"body":"we are still learning."},{"startTime":2171.89,"endTime":2173.39,"body":"We're still understanding fakes"},{"startTime":2173.39,"endTime":2175.95,"body":"because technology now"},{"startTime":2173.39,"endTime":2175.95,"body":"plays such a big role"},{"startTime":2175.95,"endTime":2177.793,"body":"in understanding fakery."},{"startTime":2178.65,"endTime":2179.84,"body":"Not only in producing it,"},{"startTime":2179.84,"endTime":2182.33,"body":"but also the way in"},{"startTime":2179.84,"endTime":2182.33,"body":"which we understand it."},{"startTime":2182.33,"endTime":2185.12,"body":"But we can see that actually"},{"startTime":2182.33,"endTime":2185.12,"body":"fakes are sometimes indication"},{"startTime":2185.12,"endTime":2186.873,"body":"of kind of access issues,"},{"startTime":2188.21,"endTime":2189.97,"body":"affordable and safe medicines,"},{"startTime":2189.97,"endTime":2193.423,"body":"high quality information,"},{"startTime":2189.97,"endTime":2193.423,"body":"trustworthy experts."},{"startTime":2193.423,"endTime":2197.26,"body":"And eliminating fakes can be"},{"startTime":2193.423,"endTime":2197.26,"body":"seen to require governments"},{"startTime":2197.26,"endTime":2200.27,"body":"who are really seen to protect the poor"},{"startTime":2200.27,"endTime":2201.993,"body":"against big corporations."},{"startTime":2205.17,"endTime":2209.87,"body":"And I think what we are"},{"startTime":2205.17,"endTime":2209.87,"body":"seeing now are kind of"},{"startTime":2209.87,"endTime":2211.75,"body":"a time where we're trying to think through"},{"startTime":2211.75,"endTime":2214.12,"body":"some of the sort of different"},{"startTime":2211.75,"endTime":2214.12,"body":"ethical implications"},{"startTime":2214.12,"endTime":2216.052,"body":"of different types of fakes."},{"startTime":2216.052,"endTime":2219.74,"body":"So we've seen that"},{"startTime":2216.052,"endTime":2219.74,"body":"throughout this discussion,"},{"startTime":2219.74,"endTime":2221.437,"body":"there are different types of fakes"},{"startTime":2221.437,"endTime":2222.96,"body":"and that require us to have almost"},{"startTime":2222.96,"endTime":2225.72,"body":"different types of ethical positions,"},{"startTime":2225.72,"endTime":2228.66,"body":"but what the fake reveals is certain kinds"},{"startTime":2228.66,"endTime":2230.58,"body":"of vantage points"},{"startTime":2230.58,"endTime":2232.96,"body":"and the role of the observer"},{"startTime":2232.96,"endTime":2235.56,"body":"in what we consider to be fake or fakery."},{"startTime":2235.56,"endTime":2237.03,"body":"We have to justify that now."},{"startTime":2237.03,"endTime":2239.22,"body":"We can no longer say"},{"startTime":2237.03,"endTime":2239.22,"body":"that's fake or that's real."},{"startTime":2239.22,"endTime":2242.13,"body":"Increasingly that has to be accompanied by"},{"startTime":2242.13,"endTime":2245.08,"body":"its fake because this has happened."},{"startTime":2245.08,"endTime":2248.609,"body":"And then those justifications"},{"startTime":2245.08,"endTime":2248.609,"body":"are then also questioned."},{"startTime":2248.609,"endTime":2250.21,"body":"So it's really,"},{"startTime":2250.21,"endTime":2253.314,"body":"it becomes incredibly"},{"startTime":2250.21,"endTime":2253.314,"body":"difficult now increasingly"},{"startTime":2253.314,"endTime":2255.805,"body":"to speak with any confidence."},{"startTime":2255.805,"endTime":2260.805,"body":"And what we've learned from"},{"startTime":2255.805,"endTime":2260.805,"body":"looking at art forgeries is"},{"startTime":2260.958,"endTime":2265.24,"body":"the painting we are absolutely"},{"startTime":2260.958,"endTime":2265.24,"body":"certain is a Picasso today,"},{"startTime":2265.24,"endTime":2268.36,"body":"we could find out in a few"},{"startTime":2265.24,"endTime":2268.36,"body":"years because of infrared"},{"startTime":2268.36,"endTime":2271.087,"body":"sort of technologies is in fact a fake ."},{"startTime":2274.31,"endTime":2275.143,"body":"What's what to say."},{"startTime":2275.143,"endTime":2276.41,"body":"Thank you for listening."},{"startTime":2276.41,"endTime":2278.709,"body":"And I really want to hear"},{"startTime":2276.41,"endTime":2278.709,"body":"your questions. Thank you."},{"startTime":2278.709,"endTime":2280.91,"body":"(audience clapping)"},{"startTime":2280.91,"endTime":2282.68,"body":"- If a painting is good enough"},{"startTime":2282.68,"endTime":2284.93,"body":"to be bought by an art gallery,"},{"startTime":2284.93,"endTime":2287.13,"body":"does it matter if it's not by the person"},{"startTime":2287.13,"endTime":2288.31,"body":"it says it is,"},{"startTime":2288.31,"endTime":2290.55,"body":"does its value lie in who it's by"},{"startTime":2290.55,"endTime":2293.143,"body":"rather than how beautiful it is?"},{"startTime":2294.22,"endTime":2295.053,"body":"- That's a good question."},{"startTime":2295.053,"endTime":2298.09,"body":"And I think that's a"},{"startTime":2295.053,"endTime":2298.09,"body":"question that has really..."},{"startTime":2298.09,"endTime":2301.03,"body":"Well I think it's inspired"},{"startTime":2298.09,"endTime":2301.03,"body":"the Museum of Art Fakes,"},{"startTime":2301.03,"endTime":2303.317,"body":"but it's one of the"},{"startTime":2301.03,"endTime":2303.317,"body":"things that Elmyr de Hory,"},{"startTime":2303.317,"endTime":2306.18,"body":"and lots of other people have"},{"startTime":2303.317,"endTime":2306.18,"body":"really spoken a lot about,"},{"startTime":2306.18,"endTime":2310.74,"body":"which is value is more"},{"startTime":2306.18,"endTime":2310.74,"body":"than financial value."},{"startTime":2310.74,"endTime":2314.14,"body":"If you have a Picasso and"},{"startTime":2310.74,"endTime":2314.14,"body":"you enjoy it as a Picasso"},{"startTime":2314.14,"endTime":2316.735,"body":"only to find out it wasn't by Picasso,"},{"startTime":2316.735,"endTime":2320.14,"body":"it might change your enjoyment of it."},{"startTime":2320.14,"endTime":2321.91,"body":"And I think Vernon Rapley"},{"startTime":2321.91,"endTime":2323.29,"body":"speaks about this on the podcast"},{"startTime":2323.29,"endTime":2324.31,"body":"where he talks about,"},{"startTime":2324.31,"endTime":2325.81,"body":"sometimes having to be the person"},{"startTime":2325.81,"endTime":2328.84,"body":"that breaks the news to someone that,"},{"startTime":2328.84,"endTime":2331.92,"body":"that Monet that they've"},{"startTime":2328.84,"endTime":2331.92,"body":"had for all of these years"},{"startTime":2331.92,"endTime":2335.41,"body":"and been handed down as"},{"startTime":2331.92,"endTime":2335.41,"body":"an heirloom isn't in fact"},{"startTime":2335.41,"endTime":2337.24,"body":"worth a great deal."},{"startTime":2337.24,"endTime":2341.31,"body":"And that some people actually"},{"startTime":2337.24,"endTime":2341.31,"body":"think, well, I don't care."},{"startTime":2341.31,"endTime":2343.89,"body":"It was my grandmother's and"},{"startTime":2341.31,"endTime":2343.89,"body":"I'm still going to enjoy it."},{"startTime":2343.89,"endTime":2346.14,"body":"So it isn't necessarily"},{"startTime":2343.89,"endTime":2346.14,"body":"about the factors of Monet,"},{"startTime":2346.14,"endTime":2348.521,"body":"it's about the fact it's been"},{"startTime":2346.14,"endTime":2348.521,"body":"in the family for a long time,"},{"startTime":2348.521,"endTime":2350.163,"body":"or it's the fact that it's been enjoyed."},{"startTime":2351.66,"endTime":2353.71,"body":"I find these problems so"},{"startTime":2353.71,"endTime":2356.66,"body":"removed from what most"},{"startTime":2353.71,"endTime":2356.66,"body":"of us are thinking about"},{"startTime":2356.66,"endTime":2359.27,"body":"I mean, I will never be in"},{"startTime":2356.66,"endTime":2359.27,"body":"a position to have a real"},{"startTime":2359.27,"endTime":2360.94,"body":"or fake Picasso."},{"startTime":2360.94,"endTime":2363.85,"body":"So I think it's about having something"},{"startTime":2363.85,"endTime":2365.62,"body":"that you value probably for itself"},{"startTime":2365.62,"endTime":2369.73,"body":"rather than because it's a"},{"startTime":2365.62,"endTime":2369.73,"body":"Picasso because it's a Monet."},{"startTime":2369.73,"endTime":2370.563,"body":"- [Man] Professor thank you."},{"startTime":2370.563,"endTime":2371.56,"body":"That was fascinating."},{"startTime":2372.48,"endTime":2374.37,"body":"As I listened to your talk,"},{"startTime":2374.37,"endTime":2376.9,"body":"I was trying to make my mind up about"},{"startTime":2376.9,"endTime":2380.8,"body":"what made a fake virtuous or non-virtuous?"},{"startTime":2380.8,"endTime":2383.93,"body":"And I started off by thinking"},{"startTime":2380.8,"endTime":2383.93,"body":"that the virtuous fake"},{"startTime":2383.93,"endTime":2386.51,"body":"sort of punctures, the vested interests"},{"startTime":2386.51,"endTime":2388.72,"body":"of the powerful somehow,"},{"startTime":2388.72,"endTime":2391.851,"body":"so if it's a fake"},{"startTime":2388.72,"endTime":2391.851,"body":"Balenciaga or a fake Rolex"},{"startTime":2391.851,"endTime":2394.24,"body":"or a fake Rembrandt, you know,"},{"startTime":2394.24,"endTime":2397.93,"body":"I kind of admire the fact"},{"startTime":2394.24,"endTime":2397.93,"body":"that these vested interests"},{"startTime":2397.93,"endTime":2399.53,"body":"are being challenged."},{"startTime":2399.53,"endTime":2401.15,"body":"And then I was thinking"},{"startTime":2399.53,"endTime":2401.15,"body":"about the non-virtuous"},{"startTime":2401.15,"endTime":2403.316,"body":"and I was thinking, well,"},{"startTime":2401.15,"endTime":2403.316,"body":"that feels as though"},{"startTime":2403.316,"endTime":2406.31,"body":"it's preying on the"},{"startTime":2403.316,"endTime":2406.31,"body":"vulnerabilities of the powerless."},{"startTime":2406.31,"endTime":2409.473,"body":"So, you know, Harry"},{"startTime":2406.31,"endTime":2409.473,"body":"Lime's fake medication,"},{"startTime":2409.473,"endTime":2411.453,"body":"but then the last bit,"},{"startTime":2412.385,"endTime":2417.385,"body":"does the idea of the fake"},{"startTime":2412.385,"endTime":2417.385,"body":"reality fit into what I was,"},{"startTime":2419.0,"endTime":2420.98,"body":"you know, beginning to think there?"},{"startTime":2420.98,"endTime":2423.554,"body":"Or is it something completely different"},{"startTime":2423.554,"endTime":2426.97,"body":"or is it challenging the power fall"},{"startTime":2426.97,"endTime":2430.74,"body":"that unless they look after the powerless,"},{"startTime":2430.74,"endTime":2434.196,"body":"then fake realities"},{"startTime":2430.74,"endTime":2434.196,"body":"are going to be created"},{"startTime":2434.196,"endTime":2435.733,"body":"to challenge them."},{"startTime":2437.07,"endTime":2437.903,"body":"- I mean, you're right."},{"startTime":2437.903,"endTime":2439.84,"body":"I mean, it's, there's no comfort in this."},{"startTime":2440.78,"endTime":2442.13,"body":"It's, there's hard to find a home"},{"startTime":2442.13,"endTime":2444.973,"body":"where you feel really"},{"startTime":2442.13,"endTime":2444.973,"body":"kind of certain about,"},{"startTime":2445.838,"endTime":2448.35,"body":"but I actually felt as much as I laughed"},{"startTime":2448.35,"endTime":2449.84,"body":"at that email that I got,"},{"startTime":2449.84,"endTime":2452.21,"body":"that was accusing me of"},{"startTime":2449.84,"endTime":2452.21,"body":"being part of a cabal."},{"startTime":2452.21,"endTime":2455.24,"body":"It really did force me to"},{"startTime":2452.21,"endTime":2455.24,"body":"think about, okay, so what,"},{"startTime":2455.24,"endTime":2457.76,"body":"how is this viewed by somebody external"},{"startTime":2457.76,"endTime":2459.56,"body":"and what are the kind"},{"startTime":2457.76,"endTime":2459.56,"body":"of conflicts of interest"},{"startTime":2459.56,"endTime":2460.58,"body":"that we need to think about"},{"startTime":2460.58,"endTime":2463.4,"body":"if we are going to really take"},{"startTime":2460.58,"endTime":2463.4,"body":"seriously people's concerns"},{"startTime":2463.4,"endTime":2465.7,"body":"that there are these kind of conspiracies?"},{"startTime":2465.7,"endTime":2467.56,"body":"When you kind of form a committee,"},{"startTime":2467.56,"endTime":2468.72,"body":"you don't think,"},{"startTime":2468.72,"endTime":2470.948,"body":"someone might look at"},{"startTime":2468.72,"endTime":2470.948,"body":"this as a conspiracy."},{"startTime":2470.948,"endTime":2472.71,"body":"You don't think, oh my God,"},{"startTime":2472.71,"endTime":2475.249,"body":"people going to think, are"},{"startTime":2472.71,"endTime":2475.249,"body":"they all like to hurt us?"},{"startTime":2475.249,"endTime":2477.442,"body":"But actually increasingly"},{"startTime":2477.442,"endTime":2482.116,"body":"I think it does ask for institutions"},{"startTime":2482.116,"endTime":2484.96,"body":"to make more transparent"},{"startTime":2482.116,"endTime":2484.96,"body":"their decision making"},{"startTime":2484.96,"endTime":2486.71,"body":"and to make it much clearer,"},{"startTime":2486.71,"endTime":2488.66,"body":"why certain things happen"},{"startTime":2486.71,"endTime":2488.66,"body":"in the way it does."},{"startTime":2488.66,"endTime":2491.86,"body":"And I think that is problematic"},{"startTime":2491.86,"endTime":2494.363,"body":"because people with power"},{"startTime":2491.86,"endTime":2494.363,"body":"in certain positions,"},{"startTime":2494.363,"endTime":2496.93,"body":"aren't used to explaining themselves"},{"startTime":2496.93,"endTime":2499.02,"body":"and it's, and proactively"},{"startTime":2496.93,"endTime":2499.02,"body":"explaining themselves."},{"startTime":2499.02,"endTime":2499.853,"body":"So you're not even sure"},{"startTime":2499.853,"endTime":2501.77,"body":"what you are explaining yourself for,"},{"startTime":2501.77,"endTime":2504.29,"body":"but I think increasingly that's actually"},{"startTime":2504.29,"endTime":2506.133,"body":"what is being asked,"},{"startTime":2508.08,"endTime":2510.75,"body":"not necessarily for people"},{"startTime":2508.08,"endTime":2510.75,"body":"to defend themselves"},{"startTime":2510.75,"endTime":2512.34,"body":"after they've been accused of fakes,"},{"startTime":2512.34,"endTime":2513.58,"body":"but to think in advance,"},{"startTime":2513.58,"endTime":2516.93,"body":"what can we do to make ourselves"},{"startTime":2513.58,"endTime":2516.93,"body":"as trustworthy as possible,"},{"startTime":2516.93,"endTime":2518.723,"body":"as transparent as possible?"},{"startTime":2519.689,"endTime":2522.84,"body":"All of the names of the"},{"startTime":2519.689,"endTime":2522.84,"body":"members of our Sage committee"},{"startTime":2522.84,"endTime":2523.673,"body":"for example,"},{"startTime":2523.673,"endTime":2526.49,"body":"are available online so"},{"startTime":2523.673,"endTime":2526.49,"body":"people can know who they are,"},{"startTime":2526.49,"endTime":2528.23,"body":"but there's always still a sense that,"},{"startTime":2528.23,"endTime":2530.34,"body":"there's other things going on."},{"startTime":2530.34,"endTime":2531.79,"body":"I think the case with the"},{"startTime":2531.79,"endTime":2534.255,"body":"Elisa Granato was really fascinating"},{"startTime":2534.255,"endTime":2538.132,"body":"in this discussion around plausibility"},{"startTime":2538.132,"endTime":2540.25,"body":"because it does, I think,"},{"startTime":2540.25,"endTime":2543.28,"body":"relate to your point around the harms"},{"startTime":2543.28,"endTime":2545.33,"body":"that the fakes can do."},{"startTime":2545.33,"endTime":2548.059,"body":"So one of the things that's emerged"},{"startTime":2548.059,"endTime":2553.059,"body":"recently is less of a investment"},{"startTime":2548.059,"endTime":2553.059,"body":"in ideas of real or fake,"},{"startTime":2554.319,"endTime":2556.8,"body":"but much more of an investment in ideas"},{"startTime":2556.8,"endTime":2558.41,"body":"of things being plausible."},{"startTime":2558.41,"endTime":2561.07,"body":"So in the case of Elisa Granato,"},{"startTime":2561.07,"endTime":2565.45,"body":"is it plausible that"},{"startTime":2561.07,"endTime":2565.45,"body":"someone can be involved"},{"startTime":2565.45,"endTime":2567.07,"body":"in these clinical trials,"},{"startTime":2567.07,"endTime":2568.47,"body":"that some harm can come to them,"},{"startTime":2568.47,"endTime":2569.63,"body":"not necessarily death,"},{"startTime":2569.63,"endTime":2571.87,"body":"but some harm can come to them."},{"startTime":2571.87,"endTime":2574.926,"body":"And that won't be disclosed"},{"startTime":2574.926,"endTime":2577.41,"body":"that that will be covered up"},{"startTime":2577.41,"endTime":2579.91,"body":"and that we won't never know about it."},{"startTime":2579.91,"endTime":2582.52,"body":"Now some people are sort of nodding"},{"startTime":2582.52,"endTime":2583.88,"body":"and other people are shaking their heads."},{"startTime":2583.88,"endTime":2586.5,"body":"And I think that is really"},{"startTime":2583.88,"endTime":2586.5,"body":"about your relationship"},{"startTime":2586.5,"endTime":2589.2,"body":"with trust and how much"},{"startTime":2586.5,"endTime":2589.2,"body":"you trust the institutions,"},{"startTime":2589.2,"endTime":2590.14,"body":"because some people will say,"},{"startTime":2590.14,"endTime":2591.37,"body":"well, actually, yeah, it's plausible."},{"startTime":2591.37,"endTime":2593.61,"body":"I mean, there's sort"},{"startTime":2591.37,"endTime":2593.61,"body":"of historical examples"},{"startTime":2593.61,"endTime":2594.91,"body":"of these things happening."},{"startTime":2594.91,"endTime":2596.13,"body":"And other people will say, no, no, no,"},{"startTime":2596.13,"endTime":2597.755,"body":"there are too many checks and balances,"},{"startTime":2597.755,"endTime":2600.19,"body":"social media and technology"},{"startTime":2597.755,"endTime":2600.19,"body":"will make it obvious"},{"startTime":2600.19,"endTime":2601.2,"body":"that this will happen."},{"startTime":2601.2,"endTime":2603.2,"body":"So I think what we've got now is the space"},{"startTime":2603.2,"endTime":2605.36,"body":"not necessarily about real or fake,"},{"startTime":2605.36,"endTime":2608.18,"body":"but what are the sort"},{"startTime":2605.36,"endTime":2608.18,"body":"of the good fake news"},{"startTime":2609.04,"endTime":2613.632,"body":"disseminators do is actually"},{"startTime":2609.04,"endTime":2613.632,"body":"they play on the plausible."},{"startTime":2613.632,"endTime":2616.78,"body":"They play not on something"},{"startTime":2613.632,"endTime":2616.78,"body":"that's so obviously fake that"},{"startTime":2616.78,"endTime":2618.12,"body":"no one's going to actually believe it,"},{"startTime":2618.12,"endTime":2620.24,"body":"but they play on this space"},{"startTime":2620.24,"endTime":2622.96,"body":"where could that actually happen?"},{"startTime":2622.96,"endTime":2624.34,"body":"Could all these people,"},{"startTime":2624.34,"endTime":2628.24,"body":"all in this committee will"},{"startTime":2624.34,"endTime":2628.24,"body":"somehow have a vested interest,"},{"startTime":2628.24,"endTime":2630.89,"body":"maybe even investments in"},{"startTime":2628.24,"endTime":2630.89,"body":"these vaccine passports?"},{"startTime":2630.89,"endTime":2632.53,"body":"I mean, how would we know?"},{"startTime":2632.53,"endTime":2634.72,"body":"And who would be checking on those people?"},{"startTime":2634.72,"endTime":2636.31,"body":"I think these are some of the questions"},{"startTime":2636.31,"endTime":2638.65,"body":"that really force institutions"},{"startTime":2638.65,"endTime":2640.8,"body":"to really ask questions around,"},{"startTime":2640.8,"endTime":2643.98,"body":"are we doing enough to"},{"startTime":2640.8,"endTime":2643.98,"body":"be open and transparent?"},{"startTime":2643.98,"endTime":2645.96,"body":"And sometimes even when you"},{"startTime":2643.98,"endTime":2645.96,"body":"feel you are doing enough,"},{"startTime":2645.96,"endTime":2648.48,"body":"it mightn't be enough for some people."},{"startTime":2648.48,"endTime":2652.888,"body":"But I think that increasingly"},{"startTime":2648.48,"endTime":2652.888,"body":"gone are the days when"},{"startTime":2652.888,"endTime":2655.29,"body":"you can just say, trust me,"},{"startTime":2655.29,"endTime":2656.17,"body":"trust me I'm a doctor."},{"startTime":2656.17,"endTime":2658.45,"body":"Or trust me, I'm any kind of professional,"},{"startTime":2658.45,"endTime":2659.62,"body":"any kind of professional."},{"startTime":2659.62,"endTime":2663.01,"body":"I think those days are sort of going."},{"startTime":2663.01,"endTime":2665.06,"body":"I dunno if that's answered your question."},{"startTime":2666.05,"endTime":2668.31,"body":"- Well, I've got a very nice segue here"},{"startTime":2668.31,"endTime":2671.24,"body":"into another question"},{"startTime":2668.31,"endTime":2671.24,"body":"from the online audience,"},{"startTime":2671.24,"endTime":2672.77,"body":"which several people want"},{"startTime":2671.24,"endTime":2672.77,"body":"to know the answer to."},{"startTime":2672.77,"endTime":2674.83,"body":"And it is a very nice fit."},{"startTime":2674.83,"endTime":2676.04,"body":"The question is,"},{"startTime":2676.04,"endTime":2678.32,"body":"do you feel there is more scope"},{"startTime":2678.32,"endTime":2682.08,"body":"to teach critical/logical thinking"},{"startTime":2682.08,"endTime":2684.47,"body":"as an actual educational subject"},{"startTime":2684.47,"endTime":2687.33,"body":"in order to give people more ability"},{"startTime":2687.33,"endTime":2690.853,"body":"to defend against distorted"},{"startTime":2687.33,"endTime":2690.853,"body":"or fake information?"},{"startTime":2693.52,"endTime":2694.613,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":2694.613,"endTime":2695.446,"body":"(laughing)"},{"startTime":2695.446,"endTime":2697.75,"body":"But I'm guessing they want more than that."},{"startTime":2697.75,"endTime":2701.32,"body":"So I think it's really difficult"},{"startTime":2697.75,"endTime":2701.32,"body":"actually to teach people"},{"startTime":2701.32,"endTime":2704.71,"body":"to recognize fake news"},{"startTime":2704.71,"endTime":2706.58,"body":"because so much is invested"},{"startTime":2706.58,"endTime":2708.77,"body":"in making it plausible."},{"startTime":2708.77,"endTime":2711.08,"body":"You know, you're talking about people,"},{"startTime":2711.08,"endTime":2712.7,"body":"who've got lots and lots"},{"startTime":2711.08,"endTime":2712.7,"body":"of time on their hand,"},{"startTime":2712.7,"endTime":2714.55,"body":"but really sort of fixed the agenda."},{"startTime":2714.55,"endTime":2717.37,"body":"They believe that they're acting"},{"startTime":2714.55,"endTime":2717.37,"body":"on behalf of the underdog."},{"startTime":2717.37,"endTime":2719.245,"body":"They believe that they're the good fake"},{"startTime":2719.245,"endTime":2722.54,"body":"that they are there to"},{"startTime":2719.245,"endTime":2722.54,"body":"upend these power structures"},{"startTime":2722.54,"endTime":2726.52,"body":"and these conglomerates and"},{"startTime":2722.54,"endTime":2726.52,"body":"these kind of conspiracies."},{"startTime":2726.52,"endTime":2728.983,"body":"And I think, well,"},{"startTime":2728.983,"endTime":2732.53,"body":"any kind of critical thinking"},{"startTime":2728.983,"endTime":2732.53,"body":"is always a good thing."},{"startTime":2732.53,"endTime":2734.5,"body":"And anybody that teaches logic"},{"startTime":2734.5,"endTime":2735.44,"body":"and how to argue,"},{"startTime":2735.44,"endTime":2737.13,"body":"I think is always good."},{"startTime":2737.13,"endTime":2742.13,"body":"But I think it's less about"},{"startTime":2737.13,"endTime":2742.13,"body":"how that applies to fake news."},{"startTime":2742.777,"endTime":2744.86,"body":"'Cause I think that's really difficult,"},{"startTime":2744.86,"endTime":2747.95,"body":"but I think in general,"},{"startTime":2744.86,"endTime":2747.95,"body":"I dunno how much, it's..."},{"startTime":2747.95,"endTime":2748.783,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":2748.783,"endTime":2750.04,"body":"I'm undecided because I dunno how much"},{"startTime":2750.04,"endTime":2752.83,"body":"it's a generational thing because I find"},{"startTime":2752.83,"endTime":2757.83,"body":"younger generations are"},{"startTime":2752.83,"endTime":2757.83,"body":"much more kind of accepting"},{"startTime":2757.84,"endTime":2760.05,"body":"of the fact that they're"},{"startTime":2757.84,"endTime":2760.05,"body":"going to might be scammed"},{"startTime":2760.05,"endTime":2760.96,"body":"or something might be fake"},{"startTime":2760.96,"endTime":2762.92,"body":"and sort of approach everything with that,"},{"startTime":2762.92,"endTime":2763.95,"body":"through that lens,"},{"startTime":2763.95,"endTime":2765.87,"body":"because this is a generation"},{"startTime":2763.95,"endTime":2765.87,"body":"that's been brought up"},{"startTime":2765.87,"endTime":2766.8,"body":"with the internet."},{"startTime":2766.8,"endTime":2769.208,"body":"So, you know, it is not."},{"startTime":2769.208,"endTime":2772.35,"body":"So I think there's definitely"},{"startTime":2769.208,"endTime":2772.35,"body":"a generational thing"},{"startTime":2772.35,"endTime":2774.54,"body":"it's who you're teaching, I think."},{"startTime":2774.54,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"- Well, thank you very much"},{"startTime":2774.54,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"for a fascinating talk."},{"startTime":2777.37,"endTime":2778.203,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":2778.203,"endTime":2780.4,"body":"- I'm not going to impersonate myself"},{"startTime":2780.4,"endTime":2782.92,"body":"by raising questions"},{"startTime":2780.4,"endTime":2782.92,"body":"about the hypothetical"},{"startTime":2782.92,"endTime":2787.08,"body":"monozygotic living twin of Dr. Granato."},{"startTime":2787.08,"endTime":2788.501,"body":"- Okay."},{"startTime":2788.501,"endTime":2789.334,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":2790.68,"endTime":2792.587,"body":"- One of the things you"},{"startTime":2790.68,"endTime":2792.587,"body":"mentioned earlier in your talk,"},{"startTime":2792.587,"endTime":2795.523,"body":"and I appreciate some clarification,"},{"startTime":2796.464,"endTime":2800.51,"body":"you mentioned or said something"},{"startTime":2800.51,"endTime":2804.32,"body":"to the effect that fakes"},{"startTime":2800.51,"endTime":2804.32,"body":"don't come just uniquely,"},{"startTime":2804.32,"endTime":2806.623,"body":"they tend to come in groups."},{"startTime":2807.901,"endTime":2810.36,"body":"If you could clarify something for me,"},{"startTime":2810.36,"endTime":2813.31,"body":"I thought if there is a fake"},{"startTime":2813.31,"endTime":2815.85,"body":"and there's a very convincing providence"},{"startTime":2815.85,"endTime":2820.85,"body":"for that fake, would it not be risky?"},{"startTime":2821.59,"endTime":2823.53,"body":"In fact, producing more fakes"},{"startTime":2823.53,"endTime":2826.33,"body":"in relating terms the original fake,"},{"startTime":2826.33,"endTime":2831.29,"body":"and perhaps even exposing the supposed"},{"startTime":2831.29,"endTime":2834.6,"body":"providence of the first fake to be false."},{"startTime":2834.6,"endTime":2837.48,"body":"I was just wondering where"},{"startTime":2834.6,"endTime":2837.48,"body":"that might be more of a risk"},{"startTime":2837.48,"endTime":2838.85,"body":"once you've convinced one,"},{"startTime":2838.85,"endTime":2840.69,"body":"somebody or a number of experts"},{"startTime":2840.69,"endTime":2843.02,"body":"of the providence of the first fake."},{"startTime":2843.02,"endTime":2845.84,"body":"You don't want to take the"},{"startTime":2843.02,"endTime":2845.84,"body":"risk of producing more fake."},{"startTime":2845.84,"endTime":2848.133,"body":"So could you clarify that for me please?"},{"startTime":2848.133,"endTime":2849.24,"body":"- I'll try my best."},{"startTime":2849.24,"endTime":2851.13,"body":"I think I've understood"},{"startTime":2849.24,"endTime":2851.13,"body":"your question correctly."},{"startTime":2851.13,"endTime":2852.947,"body":"It's really to do with"},{"startTime":2851.13,"endTime":2852.947,"body":"the kind of the first fake"},{"startTime":2852.947,"endTime":2855.0,"body":"and the providence of"},{"startTime":2852.947,"endTime":2855.0,"body":"the first fake, right?"},{"startTime":2855.0,"endTime":2858.76,"body":"And the risk involved in"},{"startTime":2855.0,"endTime":2858.76,"body":"exposing that that providence"},{"startTime":2858.76,"endTime":2859.81,"body":"itself is false."},{"startTime":2859.81,"endTime":2860.943,"body":"Is that the question?"},{"startTime":2861.793,"endTime":2862.626,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":2862.626,"endTime":2863.459,"body":"- Okay."},{"startTime":2863.459,"endTime":2864.64,"body":"I find that also a really"},{"startTime":2863.459,"endTime":2864.64,"body":"fascinating question."},{"startTime":2864.64,"endTime":2866.61,"body":"And I think this is why"},{"startTime":2866.61,"endTime":2869.13,"body":"when people talk about Elmyr de Hory work,"},{"startTime":2869.13,"endTime":2872.327,"body":"they talk about often being"},{"startTime":2869.13,"endTime":2872.327,"body":"sort of strategically ignored"},{"startTime":2872.327,"endTime":2876.76,"body":"because to expose one fake"},{"startTime":2877.71,"endTime":2881.5,"body":"often means you have to expose"},{"startTime":2877.71,"endTime":2881.5,"body":"a whole lot of other fakes"},{"startTime":2881.5,"endTime":2883.488,"body":"and fake documents,"},{"startTime":2883.488,"endTime":2886.568,"body":"people who've turned a blind eye"},{"startTime":2886.568,"endTime":2888.71,"body":"and that's where the problem starts."},{"startTime":2888.71,"endTime":2890.4,"body":"So it isn't necessarily saying"},{"startTime":2891.969,"endTime":2894.88,"body":"this painting is fake,"},{"startTime":2894.88,"endTime":2898.38,"body":"but so much work has gone"},{"startTime":2894.88,"endTime":2898.38,"body":"into the infrastructure"},{"startTime":2898.38,"endTime":2899.8,"body":"around that fake"},{"startTime":2899.8,"endTime":2902.05,"body":"you then start to ask"},{"startTime":2899.8,"endTime":2902.05,"body":"questions about the expert,"},{"startTime":2902.05,"endTime":2903.56,"body":"about the documents."},{"startTime":2903.56,"endTime":2905.61,"body":"How did they get that exact paper"},{"startTime":2905.61,"endTime":2907.7,"body":"that they use at Gresham College?"},{"startTime":2907.7,"endTime":2909.64,"body":"Who did they get that paper from?"},{"startTime":2909.64,"endTime":2911.95,"body":"That ink is only made in three place?"},{"startTime":2911.95,"endTime":2913.66,"body":"Where did they get that ink from?"},{"startTime":2913.66,"endTime":2916.84,"body":"So it then starts to unravel"},{"startTime":2913.66,"endTime":2916.84,"body":"all these other questions,"},{"startTime":2916.84,"endTime":2919.52,"body":"which is why often when people"},{"startTime":2916.84,"endTime":2919.52,"body":"talk about Elmyr de Hory,"},{"startTime":2919.52,"endTime":2921.351,"body":"the fact that 90% of his paintings"},{"startTime":2921.351,"endTime":2923.52,"body":"haven't been revealed,"},{"startTime":2923.52,"endTime":2926.2,"body":"they talk about them being"},{"startTime":2923.52,"endTime":2926.2,"body":"kind of strategically ignored,"},{"startTime":2926.2,"endTime":2927.82,"body":"which is that somebody has an inkling,"},{"startTime":2927.82,"endTime":2930.841,"body":"but nobody wants to"},{"startTime":2927.82,"endTime":2930.841,"body":"really pull that thread"},{"startTime":2930.841,"endTime":2934.14,"body":"to reveal the full extent of the problem."},{"startTime":2934.14,"endTime":2935.65,"body":"So I dunno if that's the question"},{"startTime":2935.65,"endTime":2937.43,"body":"that you were asking."},{"startTime":2937.43,"endTime":2938.89,"body":"- [Woman] Hi, thank you"},{"startTime":2937.43,"endTime":2938.89,"body":"so much for that talk."},{"startTime":2938.89,"endTime":2940.31,"body":"I really enjoyed it."},{"startTime":2940.31,"endTime":2942.59,"body":"I wondered if you could speak a little bit"},{"startTime":2942.59,"endTime":2945.92,"body":"more when you were"},{"startTime":2942.59,"endTime":2945.92,"body":"referencing kind of medicines"},{"startTime":2945.92,"endTime":2950.18,"body":"and the sort of"},{"startTime":2945.92,"endTime":2950.18,"body":"pharmaceutical conglomerates,"},{"startTime":2950.18,"endTime":2953.68,"body":"but also these new kind of maybe not new,"},{"startTime":2953.68,"endTime":2957.988,"body":"but kind of production"},{"startTime":2953.68,"endTime":2957.988,"body":"facilities that are in,"},{"startTime":2957.988,"endTime":2959.934,"body":"India, China, Brazil."},{"startTime":2959.934,"endTime":2962.9,"body":"And from what I understand,"},{"startTime":2962.9,"endTime":2965.72,"body":"there are kind of differences"},{"startTime":2962.9,"endTime":2965.72,"body":"between sort of counterfeits"},{"startTime":2965.72,"endTime":2967.08,"body":"that do the thing"},{"startTime":2967.08,"endTime":2968.64,"body":"that they're supposed to do,"},{"startTime":2968.64,"endTime":2970.21,"body":"but are not necessarily manufactured"},{"startTime":2970.21,"endTime":2973.16,"body":"by the people who own the"},{"startTime":2970.21,"endTime":2973.16,"body":"patent or what have you"},{"startTime":2973.16,"endTime":2977.87,"body":"versus fakes that in theory,"},{"startTime":2973.16,"endTime":2977.87,"body":"do nothing or worse harm."},{"startTime":2977.87,"endTime":2980.6,"body":"And I wondered if you"},{"startTime":2977.87,"endTime":2980.6,"body":"could talk a bit about"},{"startTime":2980.6,"endTime":2982.25,"body":"how that relates."},{"startTime":2982.25,"endTime":2983.9,"body":"And I think this is in a way related"},{"startTime":2983.9,"endTime":2986.63,"body":"to the previous question about power"},{"startTime":2986.63,"endTime":2989.21,"body":"and what, whether it's causing harm."},{"startTime":2989.21,"endTime":2990.305,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":2990.305,"endTime":2991.446,"body":"- I just wondered if you"},{"startTime":2990.305,"endTime":2991.446,"body":"could talk a bit more"},{"startTime":2991.446,"endTime":2992.324,"body":"about that."},{"startTime":2992.324,"endTime":2993.157,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":2993.157,"endTime":2994.197,"body":"Well thanks so much for"},{"startTime":2993.157,"endTime":2994.197,"body":"giving me the opportunity"},{"startTime":2994.197,"endTime":2995.104,"body":"to talk about that, actually,"},{"startTime":2995.104,"endTime":2996.392,"body":"'cause it's one of the"},{"startTime":2995.104,"endTime":2996.392,"body":"bits on my presentation"},{"startTime":2996.392,"endTime":2997.43,"body":"I skipped through by accident."},{"startTime":2997.43,"endTime":3000.88,"body":"So there's a whole scene"},{"startTime":2997.43,"endTime":3000.88,"body":"in \"Dying to Survive\""},{"startTime":3000.88,"endTime":3002.97,"body":"where basically they're"},{"startTime":3000.88,"endTime":3002.97,"body":"having real problems"},{"startTime":3002.97,"endTime":3005.2,"body":"trying to actually find change."},{"startTime":3005.2,"endTime":3007.54,"body":"So what they do is that they"},{"startTime":3005.2,"endTime":3007.54,"body":"round up all the patients"},{"startTime":3007.54,"endTime":3009.17,"body":"who've been using his medicines,"},{"startTime":3009.17,"endTime":3011.46,"body":"they take their medicines off"},{"startTime":3009.17,"endTime":3011.46,"body":"them and they arrest them."},{"startTime":3011.46,"endTime":3013.767,"body":"And there's this one scene"},{"startTime":3011.46,"endTime":3013.767,"body":"with an elderly lady,"},{"startTime":3013.767,"endTime":3018.16,"body":"cancer sufferer who turns"},{"startTime":3013.767,"endTime":3018.16,"body":"around to the police"},{"startTime":3018.16,"endTime":3021.33,"body":"officer and says, these"},{"startTime":3018.16,"endTime":3021.33,"body":"medicines that you say are fake,"},{"startTime":3021.33,"endTime":3022.17,"body":"have saved my life"},{"startTime":3022.17,"endTime":3024.57,"body":"and been saving my life"},{"startTime":3022.17,"endTime":3024.57,"body":"for the past three years."},{"startTime":3024.57,"endTime":3025.403,"body":"How..."},{"startTime":3025.403,"endTime":3027.04,"body":"Who are you to say they're fake"},{"startTime":3027.04,"endTime":3030.32,"body":"when my experience of"},{"startTime":3027.04,"endTime":3030.32,"body":"them is that they're real."},{"startTime":3030.32,"endTime":3034.181,"body":"And so this film and"},{"startTime":3030.32,"endTime":3034.181,"body":"the discussion predates"},{"startTime":3034.181,"endTime":3037.66,"body":"the kind of changes in"},{"startTime":3034.181,"endTime":3037.66,"body":"the naming of medicines"},{"startTime":3037.66,"endTime":3040.311,"body":"that have gone from fake to generic."},{"startTime":3040.311,"endTime":3043.04,"body":"But actually what they're"},{"startTime":3040.311,"endTime":3043.04,"body":"talking about in the film are"},{"startTime":3043.04,"endTime":3044.48,"body":"actually generic medicines."},{"startTime":3044.48,"endTime":3046.137,"body":"They're not fake."},{"startTime":3046.137,"endTime":3050.31,"body":"But even still they're"},{"startTime":3046.137,"endTime":3050.31,"body":"this kind of duality"},{"startTime":3050.31,"endTime":3051.143,"body":"that's happening."},{"startTime":3051.143,"endTime":3053.23,"body":"'Cause on the one hand"},{"startTime":3051.143,"endTime":3053.23,"body":"pharmaceutical companies will say,"},{"startTime":3053.23,"endTime":3055.65,"body":"no, well, no, they're not"},{"startTime":3053.23,"endTime":3055.65,"body":"fakes they're generics,"},{"startTime":3055.65,"endTime":3057.2,"body":"but they're not as good as ours."},{"startTime":3057.2,"endTime":3059.02,"body":"And so even though they're generics,"},{"startTime":3059.02,"endTime":3061.071,"body":"they're often still categorized as fakes."},{"startTime":3061.071,"endTime":3065.74,"body":"So I think the discussion"},{"startTime":3061.071,"endTime":3065.74,"body":"by the elderly lady"},{"startTime":3065.74,"endTime":3069.37,"body":"in the film was kind of fascinating"},{"startTime":3065.74,"endTime":3069.37,"body":"for a number of reasons,"},{"startTime":3069.37,"endTime":3073.36,"body":"but it was really again around who gets"},{"startTime":3073.36,"endTime":3075.23,"body":"to describe these things in this way"},{"startTime":3075.23,"endTime":3077.95,"body":"and the power of naming"},{"startTime":3075.23,"endTime":3077.95,"body":"something as a fake."},{"startTime":3077.95,"endTime":3079.837,"body":"So what..."},{"startTime":3079.837,"endTime":3082.75,"body":"And the location talking, using India,"},{"startTime":3082.75,"endTime":3084.74,"body":"which is the sort of the"},{"startTime":3082.75,"endTime":3084.74,"body":"world's largest producer"},{"startTime":3084.74,"endTime":3087.14,"body":"of all sorts of medical ingredients,"},{"startTime":3087.14,"endTime":3088.62,"body":"but generics in particular"},{"startTime":3089.578,"endTime":3092.27,"body":"and it, India describes itself"},{"startTime":3092.27,"endTime":3093.69,"body":"as the sort of the world,"},{"startTime":3093.69,"endTime":3095.2,"body":"the pharmacy for the poor,"},{"startTime":3095.2,"endTime":3097.21,"body":"it produces generic medicines precisely"},{"startTime":3097.21,"endTime":3100.844,"body":"to allow many poor countries"},{"startTime":3097.21,"endTime":3100.844,"body":"to have access to medicines."},{"startTime":3100.844,"endTime":3103.95,"body":"So I think that's why this"},{"startTime":3100.844,"endTime":3103.95,"body":"film is also really important,"},{"startTime":3103.95,"endTime":3105.54,"body":"'cause it really takes that on."},{"startTime":3105.54,"endTime":3110.08,"body":"And it really shows these"},{"startTime":3105.54,"endTime":3110.08,"body":"kind of European organizations"},{"startTime":3110.08,"endTime":3113.38,"body":"charging sort of 40,000 yen"},{"startTime":3110.08,"endTime":3113.38,"body":"for a bottle versus India,"},{"startTime":3113.38,"endTime":3115.36,"body":"which is producing"},{"startTime":3113.38,"endTime":3115.36,"body":"exactly the same medicine"},{"startTime":3115.36,"endTime":3119.35,"body":"with exactly the same"},{"startTime":3115.36,"endTime":3119.35,"body":"efficacy for 2000 yen"},{"startTime":3119.35,"endTime":3121.5,"body":"and asks where is the morality"},{"startTime":3121.5,"endTime":3123.15,"body":"in the way that these things are priced"},{"startTime":3123.15,"endTime":3125.36,"body":"and who sits at the table"},{"startTime":3123.15,"endTime":3125.36,"body":"and these prices are made"},{"startTime":3125.36,"endTime":3127.76,"body":"'Cause it absolutely isn't poor people."},{"startTime":3127.76,"endTime":3130.31,"body":"So we get to have some"},{"startTime":3127.76,"endTime":3130.31,"body":"of these discussions"},{"startTime":3130.31,"endTime":3132.37,"body":"around the generic and counterfeits"},{"startTime":3132.37,"endTime":3133.81,"body":"and fakes in the film as well."},{"startTime":3133.81,"endTime":3136.05,"body":"So I haven't really done"},{"startTime":3133.81,"endTime":3136.05,"body":"justice to that point."},{"startTime":3136.05,"endTime":3139.24,"body":"So thanks for giving me the"},{"startTime":3136.05,"endTime":3139.24,"body":"opportunity to talk about that."},{"startTime":3139.24,"endTime":3142.29,"body":"- There's a quite an interesting"},{"startTime":3139.24,"endTime":3142.29,"body":"comment here in line."},{"startTime":3142.29,"endTime":3143.123,"body":"It's not really a question."},{"startTime":3143.123,"endTime":3144.71,"body":"This is a person who works at a university"},{"startTime":3144.71,"endTime":3146.841,"body":"on a foundation program and they try and"},{"startTime":3146.841,"endTime":3150.73,"body":"teach students how to"},{"startTime":3146.841,"endTime":3150.73,"body":"identify reliable sources"},{"startTime":3150.73,"endTime":3151.96,"body":"of information."},{"startTime":3151.96,"endTime":3154.79,"body":"However she is considering"},{"startTime":3151.96,"endTime":3154.79,"body":"how best to approach this,"},{"startTime":3154.79,"endTime":3158.935,"body":"given the can we trust the"},{"startTime":3154.79,"endTime":3158.935,"body":"experts idea mentioned earlier"},{"startTime":3158.935,"endTime":3161.22,"body":"and that many valid voices"},{"startTime":3161.22,"endTime":3163.275,"body":"are not always considered reliable."},{"startTime":3163.275,"endTime":3165.81,"body":"She says we also have a"},{"startTime":3163.275,"endTime":3165.81,"body":"big problem with students"},{"startTime":3165.81,"endTime":3167.243,"body":"buying their essays."},{"startTime":3168.22,"endTime":3169.407,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":3169.407,"endTime":3170.24,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3170.24,"endTime":3171.073,"body":"- Again."},{"startTime":3171.073,"endTime":3171.906,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3171.906,"endTime":3173.74,"body":"- [Moderator] Any other"},{"startTime":3171.906,"endTime":3173.74,"body":"question from the room?"},{"startTime":3173.74,"endTime":3175.863,"body":"Yes, do come back for one more."},{"startTime":3179.21,"endTime":3181.216,"body":"- [Man] Second question."},{"startTime":3181.216,"endTime":3182.45,"body":"I thought it was interesting your idea"},{"startTime":3182.45,"endTime":3185.19,"body":"that younger people are"},{"startTime":3182.45,"endTime":3185.19,"body":"more inherently skeptical"},{"startTime":3185.19,"endTime":3187.63,"body":"about what they are told."},{"startTime":3187.63,"endTime":3190.22,"body":"Is that always a good thing"},{"startTime":3190.22,"endTime":3192.25,"body":"or is the fact that they struggle to find"},{"startTime":3192.25,"endTime":3194.35,"body":"an authoritative trustworthy source,"},{"startTime":3194.35,"endTime":3196.53,"body":"something that makes them"},{"startTime":3194.35,"endTime":3196.53,"body":"skeptical of everything"},{"startTime":3196.53,"endTime":3198.51,"body":"and therefore they've no idea what to do,"},{"startTime":3198.51,"endTime":3199.463,"body":"what to trust?"},{"startTime":3200.99,"endTime":3203.21,"body":"- I don't know the answer."},{"startTime":3203.21,"endTime":3205.33,"body":"I think, I don't necessarily think that"},{"startTime":3205.33,"endTime":3207.48,"body":"and young people are more"},{"startTime":3205.33,"endTime":3207.48,"body":"inherently skeptical."},{"startTime":3207.48,"endTime":3210.67,"body":"I think they are skeptical"},{"startTime":3207.48,"endTime":3210.67,"body":"because you know,"},{"startTime":3210.67,"endTime":3212.87,"body":"I mean, okay, maybe now I've said it,"},{"startTime":3212.87,"endTime":3214.33,"body":"you might notice it a bit more,"},{"startTime":3214.33,"endTime":3216.78,"body":"but they're basically barely a week"},{"startTime":3216.78,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"where you turn on the TV"},{"startTime":3216.78,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"and there isn't some program"},{"startTime":3219.67,"endTime":3222.93,"body":"that's got fake in the title and it's,"},{"startTime":3222.93,"endTime":3224.81,"body":"if it's not about sort of dating,"},{"startTime":3224.81,"endTime":3226.72,"body":"it's about consumer goods,"},{"startTime":3226.72,"endTime":3227.81,"body":"it's about some kind of,"},{"startTime":3227.81,"endTime":3229.819,"body":"there's always so that this idea"},{"startTime":3229.819,"endTime":3234.819,"body":"that there's fakes about I"},{"startTime":3229.819,"endTime":3234.819,"body":"think is really important."},{"startTime":3235.147,"endTime":3238.383,"body":"I think that looking at"},{"startTime":3235.147,"endTime":3238.383,"body":"history has taught us"},{"startTime":3238.383,"endTime":3242.21,"body":"that actually it is"},{"startTime":3238.383,"endTime":3242.21,"body":"important to question power"},{"startTime":3242.21,"endTime":3243.043,"body":"all the time."},{"startTime":3243.043,"endTime":3245.122,"body":"And so I don't necessarily"},{"startTime":3243.043,"endTime":3245.122,"body":"see that as a bad thing,"},{"startTime":3245.122,"endTime":3247.38,"body":"but I think your question"},{"startTime":3245.122,"endTime":3247.38,"body":"is really difficult"},{"startTime":3247.38,"endTime":3248.213,"body":"for me to answer"},{"startTime":3248.213,"endTime":3250.683,"body":"because I don't know where"},{"startTime":3248.213,"endTime":3250.683,"body":"this will lead, ultimately."},{"startTime":3251.73,"endTime":3252.563,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3252.563,"endTime":3253.83,"body":"I can't look into the future on that one,"},{"startTime":3253.83,"endTime":3257.16,"body":"but I think if we look"},{"startTime":3253.83,"endTime":3257.16,"body":"at some of the scandals"},{"startTime":3257.16,"endTime":3261.63,"body":"that have been on earth in unearthed,"},{"startTime":3261.63,"endTime":3264.326,"body":"in organized religion, in,"},{"startTime":3264.326,"endTime":3265.66,"body":"(indistinct)"},{"startTime":3265.66,"endTime":3266.493,"body":"all of these things,"},{"startTime":3266.493,"endTime":3268.76,"body":"at the heart of it was"},{"startTime":3266.493,"endTime":3268.76,"body":"a lack of questioning"},{"startTime":3268.76,"endTime":3271.298,"body":"essentially of authority."},{"startTime":3271.298,"endTime":3274.76,"body":"And so some questioning"},{"startTime":3271.298,"endTime":3274.76,"body":"some of these things,"},{"startTime":3274.76,"endTime":3277.21,"body":"isn't a bad thing and"},{"startTime":3274.76,"endTime":3277.21,"body":"talking about concerns,"},{"startTime":3277.21,"endTime":3278.18,"body":"isn't a bad thing"},{"startTime":3279.07,"endTime":3281.34,"body":"and there's always this sense"},{"startTime":3279.07,"endTime":3281.34,"body":"of a kind of slippery slope."},{"startTime":3281.34,"endTime":3282.173,"body":"So, okay."},{"startTime":3282.173,"endTime":3283.006,"body":"So they start to question,"},{"startTime":3283.006,"endTime":3284.615,"body":"this would let me question everything,"},{"startTime":3284.615,"endTime":3285.448,"body":"but I don't think it's necessarily"},{"startTime":3285.448,"endTime":3287.04,"body":"bad to question everything."},{"startTime":3287.04,"endTime":3289.41,"body":"It's just whether you end"},{"startTime":3287.04,"endTime":3289.41,"body":"up dismissing everything"},{"startTime":3289.41,"endTime":3290.8,"body":"is the problem."},{"startTime":3290.8,"endTime":3293.92,"body":"And so how do we get to a point"},{"startTime":3290.8,"endTime":3293.92,"body":"where we ask people and say,"},{"startTime":3293.92,"endTime":3295.77,"body":"and encourage people to question things"},{"startTime":3295.77,"endTime":3297.56,"body":"and hold people to account"},{"startTime":3297.56,"endTime":3301.17,"body":"without dismissing things"},{"startTime":3297.56,"endTime":3301.17,"body":"that we have all agreed on"},{"startTime":3301.17,"endTime":3304.11,"body":"actually work and all agreed"},{"startTime":3301.17,"endTime":3304.11,"body":"on are actually good things."},{"startTime":3304.11,"endTime":3306.083,"body":"I think that's the difference."},{"startTime":3306.94,"endTime":3308.6,"body":"- Well, thank you very much,"},{"startTime":3308.6,"endTime":3311.45,"body":"Professor Kingori we've had a"},{"startTime":3308.6,"endTime":3311.45,"body":"really fascinating stimulating"},{"startTime":3311.45,"endTime":3313.06,"body":"evening and we're all going to be leaving"},{"startTime":3313.06,"endTime":3315.7,"body":"with our heads buzzing with ideas."},{"startTime":3315.7,"endTime":3318.43,"body":"So can we just thank"},{"startTime":3315.7,"endTime":3318.43,"body":"the professor very much."},{"startTime":3318.43,"endTime":3321.43,"body":"(audience clapping)"}]}