{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.21,"endTime":5.21,"body":"- What is Britain's pagan"},{"startTime":0.21,"endTime":5.21,"body":"heritage, and why does it matter?"},{"startTime":6.54,"endTime":11.54,"body":"And the first can be answered"},{"startTime":6.54,"endTime":11.54,"body":"very speedily that it is one"},{"startTime":12.63,"endTime":17.63,"body":"of the richest and finest"},{"startTime":12.63,"endTime":17.63,"body":"inheritances of the pre-Christian"},{"startTime":19.02,"endTime":24.02,"body":"religions of Europe in"},{"startTime":19.02,"endTime":24.02,"body":"the entire continent."},{"startTime":25.29,"endTime":30.29,"body":"From the earlier old"},{"startTime":25.29,"endTime":30.29,"body":"Stone Age or Paleolithic,"},{"startTime":30.63,"endTime":35.193,"body":"we have the so-called"},{"startTime":30.63,"endTime":35.193,"body":"Red Lady of Paviland."},{"startTime":37.59,"endTime":42.09,"body":"A burial perhaps 34,000 years old"},{"startTime":42.09,"endTime":44.61,"body":"from a cave in South Wales."},{"startTime":44.61,"endTime":48.21,"body":"From the later Paleolithic,"},{"startTime":48.21,"endTime":52.38,"body":"we have the carvings in"},{"startTime":48.21,"endTime":52.38,"body":"the caves of Creswell Crags"},{"startTime":52.38,"endTime":54.09,"body":"in the North Midlands."},{"startTime":54.09,"endTime":58.983,"body":"Some of the finest from"},{"startTime":54.09,"endTime":58.983,"body":"the period in the world."},{"startTime":60.03,"endTime":63.24,"body":"From the Middle Stone Age or Mesolithic,"},{"startTime":63.24,"endTime":65.73,"body":"we have settlements and campsites"},{"startTime":65.73,"endTime":68.28,"body":"with evidence of ritual, above all,"},{"startTime":68.28,"endTime":70.77,"body":"Starr Carr in Yorkshire,"},{"startTime":70.77,"endTime":74.493,"body":"one of the finest such places in Europe."},{"startTime":75.72,"endTime":78.9,"body":"From the New Stone Age or Neolithic,"},{"startTime":78.9,"endTime":81.93,"body":"the monuments begin, first of all,"},{"startTime":81.93,"endTime":86.93,"body":"the chambered tomb shrines we"},{"startTime":81.93,"endTime":86.93,"body":"call long burrows or dolmens."},{"startTime":88.05,"endTime":91.29,"body":"And then the stone circles,"},{"startTime":91.29,"endTime":95.97,"body":"which carry on being"},{"startTime":91.29,"endTime":95.97,"body":"built into the Bronze Age."},{"startTime":95.97,"endTime":100.53,"body":"From the Iron Age, we have"},{"startTime":95.97,"endTime":100.53,"body":"the enormous structures known"},{"startTime":100.53,"endTime":103.47,"body":"as Hill Forts, formally thought"},{"startTime":103.47,"endTime":107.19,"body":"to be the equivalent"},{"startTime":103.47,"endTime":107.19,"body":"of medieval castles as"},{"startTime":107.19,"endTime":109.47,"body":"the stronghold of chiefs,"},{"startTime":109.47,"endTime":113.82,"body":"but now realized to be"},{"startTime":109.47,"endTime":113.82,"body":"communal gathering places"},{"startTime":113.82,"endTime":118.82,"body":"for many purposes, including"},{"startTime":113.82,"endTime":118.82,"body":"and centrally religion."},{"startTime":119.34,"endTime":123.36,"body":"So they are mighty ritual monuments."},{"startTime":123.36,"endTime":126.27,"body":"And then we reach the dawn of history"},{"startTime":126.27,"endTime":128.67,"body":"with the coming of the Romans."},{"startTime":128.67,"endTime":130.44,"body":"And the Romans not only bring"},{"startTime":130.44,"endTime":133.77,"body":"in their own goddesses"},{"startTime":130.44,"endTime":133.77,"body":"and gods from Italy,"},{"startTime":133.77,"endTime":138.39,"body":"but they also reveal those of"},{"startTime":133.77,"endTime":138.39,"body":"the Native Iron Age British"},{"startTime":138.39,"endTime":140.64,"body":"by giving them inscriptions"},{"startTime":140.64,"endTime":144.39,"body":"and sculptures for the first time."},{"startTime":144.39,"endTime":148.68,"body":"And from every corner of"},{"startTime":144.39,"endTime":148.68,"body":"the vast Roman Empire,"},{"startTime":148.68,"endTime":153.68,"body":"different peoples arrive in"},{"startTime":148.68,"endTime":153.68,"body":"Britain bringing their pantheons"},{"startTime":153.96,"endTime":158.96,"body":"of deities with them, from as"},{"startTime":153.96,"endTime":158.96,"body":"far as Syria, Egypt, Africa,"},{"startTime":159.69,"endTime":162.6,"body":"and all over northern Europe."},{"startTime":162.6,"endTime":165.51,"body":"And when the Romans"},{"startTime":162.6,"endTime":165.51,"body":"convert to Christianity"},{"startTime":165.51,"endTime":168.87,"body":"and they pull out, the Anglo-Saxons,"},{"startTime":168.87,"endTime":171.51,"body":"the early English come in,"},{"startTime":171.51,"endTime":176.07,"body":"bringing a completely new set of deities"},{"startTime":176.07,"endTime":181.07,"body":"like Woden and Thunor, Tiw and Frig."},{"startTime":182.4,"endTime":187.4,"body":"Then the Anglo Saxons convert"},{"startTime":182.4,"endTime":187.4,"body":"to Christianity just in time"},{"startTime":187.47,"endTime":192.47,"body":"for the Vikings to turn up with"},{"startTime":187.47,"endTime":192.47,"body":"virtually the only group of"},{"startTime":192.99,"endTime":196.74,"body":"Western and central European"},{"startTime":192.99,"endTime":196.74,"body":"goddesses and gods we hadn't"},{"startTime":196.74,"endTime":199.26,"body":"seen yet in Britain."},{"startTime":199.26,"endTime":203.49,"body":"And only when the Vikings turn"},{"startTime":199.26,"endTime":203.49,"body":"Christian after one to 200"},{"startTime":203.49,"endTime":208.49,"body":"years is the whole"},{"startTime":203.49,"endTime":208.49,"body":"marvelous pageant complete."},{"startTime":211.08,"endTime":214.17,"body":"We need to approach the second question"},{"startTime":214.17,"endTime":217.74,"body":"in the light of what I've just described,"},{"startTime":217.74,"endTime":220.65,"body":"why it matters and it matters because"},{"startTime":220.65,"endTime":224.4,"body":"of its exceptional richness and diversity."},{"startTime":224.4,"endTime":229.4,"body":"If you are a modern inhabitant"},{"startTime":224.4,"endTime":229.4,"body":"of Iceland, Estonia, Greece,"},{"startTime":229.53,"endTime":233.118,"body":"Italy, or Germany for example,"},{"startTime":233.118,"endTime":237.84,"body":"your pagan heritage will"},{"startTime":233.118,"endTime":237.84,"body":"consist of one pantheon"},{"startTime":237.84,"endTime":242.82,"body":"of goddesses and gods with"},{"startTime":237.84,"endTime":242.82,"body":"an accompanying archeology."},{"startTime":242.82,"endTime":246.9,"body":"But just because so many"},{"startTime":242.82,"endTime":246.9,"body":"peoples ended up here,"},{"startTime":246.9,"endTime":251.9,"body":"we in Britain have no less"},{"startTime":246.9,"endTime":251.9,"body":"than four different sets"},{"startTime":252.36,"endTime":256.41,"body":"of deities, including the vast array"},{"startTime":256.41,"endTime":260.01,"body":"from the entire Roman"},{"startTime":256.41,"endTime":260.01,"body":"empire, and before that,"},{"startTime":260.01,"endTime":265.01,"body":"no less than six different"},{"startTime":260.01,"endTime":265.01,"body":"ages of pre-history"},{"startTime":265.26,"endTime":267.21,"body":"to provide their input."},{"startTime":267.21,"endTime":270.183,"body":"So we are spoiled for choice."},{"startTime":271.29,"endTime":276.29,"body":"These are an extraordinary"},{"startTime":271.29,"endTime":276.29,"body":"resource to inspire"},{"startTime":276.63,"endTime":281.13,"body":"the imagination of the"},{"startTime":276.63,"endTime":281.13,"body":"modern age, to inspire music,"},{"startTime":281.13,"endTime":285.72,"body":"literature and art, and"},{"startTime":281.13,"endTime":285.72,"body":"to enable people to define"},{"startTime":285.72,"endTime":289.59,"body":"their own spirituality if needed,"},{"startTime":289.59,"endTime":293.79,"body":"either sympathetically"},{"startTime":289.59,"endTime":293.79,"body":"with the ancient religions"},{"startTime":293.79,"endTime":296.31,"body":"or against them."},{"startTime":296.31,"endTime":301.31,"body":"But what makes these"},{"startTime":296.31,"endTime":301.31,"body":"particularly fine as a resource"},{"startTime":301.77,"endTime":305.79,"body":"with which to think is that the whole"},{"startTime":305.79,"endTime":308.4,"body":"of prehistoric British religion"},{"startTime":308.4,"endTime":310.95,"body":"and even much of that"},{"startTime":308.4,"endTime":310.95,"body":"from the early historic"},{"startTime":310.95,"endTime":315.95,"body":"periods defy confident interpretation."},{"startTime":317.82,"endTime":321.27,"body":"And I'm going to illustrate that argument"},{"startTime":321.27,"endTime":324.21,"body":"with two major case studies."},{"startTime":324.21,"endTime":328.89,"body":"The first is simply the most"},{"startTime":324.21,"endTime":328.89,"body":"famous prehistoric monument"},{"startTime":328.89,"endTime":331.77,"body":"in the world, which is Stonehenge."},{"startTime":331.77,"endTime":336.77,"body":"And the second is a spectacular artifact,"},{"startTime":336.9,"endTime":341.9,"body":"the human bog body known as Lindow Man."},{"startTime":342.27,"endTime":345.63,"body":"So let's go first to Stonehenge."},{"startTime":345.63,"endTime":348.96,"body":"What can we say with"},{"startTime":345.63,"endTime":348.96,"body":"certainty about Stonehenge?"},{"startTime":348.96,"endTime":353.1,"body":"Well, it's built around about 2,600 BC"},{"startTime":353.1,"endTime":357.0,"body":"or BCE in the later New Stone Age."},{"startTime":357.0,"endTime":359.43,"body":"And there's nothing else like it."},{"startTime":359.43,"endTime":362.49,"body":"It's the only stone"},{"startTime":359.43,"endTime":362.49,"body":"monument of the world built"},{"startTime":362.49,"endTime":367.49,"body":"by people crazy enough to"},{"startTime":362.49,"endTime":367.49,"body":"use carpenter's techniques."},{"startTime":367.83,"endTime":372.24,"body":"It's a woodworker's"},{"startTime":367.83,"endTime":372.24,"body":"wonder, taking huge stones,"},{"startTime":372.24,"endTime":376.32,"body":"planing and smoothing and"},{"startTime":372.24,"endTime":376.32,"body":"bending them like planks of wood"},{"startTime":376.32,"endTime":380.1,"body":"and fitting them together"},{"startTime":376.32,"endTime":380.1,"body":"with mortise and tenon joints."},{"startTime":380.1,"endTime":383.73,"body":"Now this is difficult enough"},{"startTime":380.1,"endTime":383.73,"body":"to be virtually pointless,"},{"startTime":383.73,"endTime":388.53,"body":"but it does produce something"},{"startTime":383.73,"endTime":388.53,"body":"that looks like nothing else."},{"startTime":388.53,"endTime":392.64,"body":"You put one of those great"},{"startTime":388.53,"endTime":392.64,"body":"three stone door like settings"},{"startTime":392.64,"endTime":397.53,"body":"from Stonehenge on a rock"},{"startTime":392.64,"endTime":397.53,"body":"album, a T-shirt, or a hoarding,"},{"startTime":397.53,"endTime":400.77,"body":"and everybody knows it's Stonehenge."},{"startTime":400.77,"endTime":404.91,"body":"And not only was it built by"},{"startTime":400.77,"endTime":404.91,"body":"carpenters, but it was built"},{"startTime":404.91,"endTime":409.83,"body":"by careless hurrying"},{"startTime":404.91,"endTime":409.83,"body":"megalomaniac carpenters."},{"startTime":409.83,"endTime":412.023,"body":"And let me prove that statement."},{"startTime":414.39,"endTime":416.22,"body":"We know that they were megalomaniac,"},{"startTime":416.22,"endTime":419.46,"body":"not only because they tried"},{"startTime":416.22,"endTime":419.46,"body":"something architecturally"},{"startTime":419.46,"endTime":423.48,"body":"very difficult to use stone like wood,"},{"startTime":423.48,"endTime":428.48,"body":"but it's also the only prehistoric"},{"startTime":423.48,"endTime":428.48,"body":"monument in Europe made"},{"startTime":428.858,"endTime":431.16,"body":"of big stones that were brought"},{"startTime":431.16,"endTime":434.22,"body":"from further than five miles away."},{"startTime":434.22,"endTime":439.17,"body":"The huge stones there were"},{"startTime":434.22,"endTime":439.17,"body":"towed from 10 to 20 miles"},{"startTime":439.17,"endTime":441.99,"body":"to the north from the"},{"startTime":439.17,"endTime":441.99,"body":"North Wilshire Downs."},{"startTime":441.99,"endTime":445.02,"body":"And the smaller stones in"},{"startTime":441.99,"endTime":445.02,"body":"the setting were brought"},{"startTime":445.02,"endTime":447.3,"body":"from the far end of Wales,"},{"startTime":447.3,"endTime":452.3,"body":"which is a hundred miles as"},{"startTime":447.3,"endTime":452.3,"body":"the crow flies and twice that"},{"startTime":452.49,"endTime":457.47,"body":"as human beings push,"},{"startTime":452.49,"endTime":457.47,"body":"tug, curse, and sweat."},{"startTime":457.47,"endTime":462.47,"body":"So it's an extraordinary"},{"startTime":457.47,"endTime":462.47,"body":"overambitious expenditure of energy"},{"startTime":464.22,"endTime":469.22,"body":"and we know they were careless"},{"startTime":464.22,"endTime":469.22,"body":"and hurried by the results."},{"startTime":470.79,"endTime":472.8,"body":"We know that the monuments aligned"},{"startTime":472.8,"endTime":475.8,"body":"on the midsummer sunrise,"},{"startTime":475.8,"endTime":479.73,"body":"the great avenue of bank"},{"startTime":475.8,"endTime":479.73,"body":"and ditch leading out"},{"startTime":479.73,"endTime":483.18,"body":"from the monument is"},{"startTime":479.73,"endTime":483.18,"body":"aligned in that direction."},{"startTime":483.18,"endTime":485.25,"body":"And that's why to this very day,"},{"startTime":485.25,"endTime":488.7,"body":"thousands of people in"},{"startTime":485.25,"endTime":488.7,"body":"various states of altered"},{"startTime":488.7,"endTime":493.7,"body":"consciousness gather at"},{"startTime":488.7,"endTime":493.7,"body":"Stonehenge to witness this event."},{"startTime":494.19,"endTime":499.19,"body":"But far more spectacular is"},{"startTime":494.19,"endTime":499.19,"body":"the effect that we have lost"},{"startTime":500.64,"endTime":505.64,"body":"that of the midwinter"},{"startTime":500.64,"endTime":505.64,"body":"sunset because the greatest"},{"startTime":505.92,"endTime":510.06,"body":"of the three stone settings"},{"startTime":505.92,"endTime":510.06,"body":"we call trilithons,"},{"startTime":510.06,"endTime":512.73,"body":"those great door-like effects,"},{"startTime":512.73,"endTime":516.78,"body":"the great trilithon was aligned precisely"},{"startTime":516.78,"endTime":518.82,"body":"on the midwinter sunset."},{"startTime":518.82,"endTime":523.82,"body":"It was set in the southwestern"},{"startTime":518.82,"endTime":523.82,"body":"corner of the inner circle."},{"startTime":524.31,"endTime":527.55,"body":"And when the setting sun"},{"startTime":524.31,"endTime":527.55,"body":"went down at midwinter,"},{"startTime":527.55,"endTime":531.582,"body":"it threw a laser-like beam of"},{"startTime":527.55,"endTime":531.582,"body":"red light through the narrow"},{"startTime":531.582,"endTime":536.07,"body":"gap between the two great"},{"startTime":531.582,"endTime":536.07,"body":"uprights so that it struck"},{"startTime":536.07,"endTime":541.07,"body":"the upright altar stone in"},{"startTime":536.07,"endTime":541.07,"body":"the center like a laser beam."},{"startTime":541.71,"endTime":543.21,"body":"It was a stunning effect."},{"startTime":543.21,"endTime":546.57,"body":"We have, of course, no idea what it meant."},{"startTime":546.57,"endTime":550.77,"body":"It could have represented"},{"startTime":546.57,"endTime":550.77,"body":"a marriage of the sun"},{"startTime":550.77,"endTime":554.94,"body":"with the earth or"},{"startTime":550.77,"endTime":554.94,"body":"alternatively, for example,"},{"startTime":554.94,"endTime":558.78,"body":"you might look at that great"},{"startTime":554.94,"endTime":558.78,"body":"arch as being like the belly"},{"startTime":558.78,"endTime":562.71,"body":"and the legs of an enormous"},{"startTime":558.78,"endTime":562.71,"body":"divine woman giving birth"},{"startTime":562.71,"endTime":567.71,"body":"to the new year by that"},{"startTime":562.71,"endTime":567.71,"body":"wonderful visual effect."},{"startTime":569.7,"endTime":574.7,"body":"But we don't have it anymore"},{"startTime":569.7,"endTime":574.7,"body":"because they built it badly."},{"startTime":574.914,"endTime":579.914,"body":"They found one enormous long"},{"startTime":574.914,"endTime":579.914,"body":"upright stone which could go"},{"startTime":582.03,"endTime":583.953,"body":"five to six feet into the earth."},{"startTime":584.911,"endTime":587.88,"body":"And what they needed was"},{"startTime":584.911,"endTime":587.88,"body":"one equally long to go on"},{"startTime":587.88,"endTime":590.4,"body":"the other side as the other upright"},{"startTime":590.4,"endTime":592.56,"body":"of the door-like structure."},{"startTime":592.56,"endTime":594.95,"body":"And they arrived or unable to find one,"},{"startTime":594.95,"endTime":597.48,"body":"or they weren't bothered to find one,"},{"startTime":597.48,"endTime":602.07,"body":"so they got one that was much"},{"startTime":597.48,"endTime":602.07,"body":"shorter, and it had a ledge"},{"startTime":602.07,"endTime":605.82,"body":"of stone projecting out"},{"startTime":602.07,"endTime":605.82,"body":"from the bottom of it"},{"startTime":605.82,"endTime":606.99,"body":"because it's long gone."},{"startTime":606.99,"endTime":609.69,"body":"I can't give you visual aids for this."},{"startTime":609.69,"endTime":613.26,"body":"And you can hear the arguments"},{"startTime":609.69,"endTime":613.26,"body":"around the drawing board."},{"startTime":613.26,"endTime":616.83,"body":"They persuaded themselves that"},{"startTime":613.26,"endTime":616.83,"body":"if they stuck this thing on"},{"startTime":616.83,"endTime":620.16,"body":"the ground beside the"},{"startTime":616.83,"endTime":620.16,"body":"long solid upright one,"},{"startTime":620.16,"endTime":622.77,"body":"the projecting stone at its foot"},{"startTime":622.77,"endTime":625.29,"body":"underneath the turf would anchor it."},{"startTime":625.29,"endTime":629.46,"body":"And in any case, if you dump"},{"startTime":625.29,"endTime":629.46,"body":"a heavy enough lentil stone"},{"startTime":629.46,"endTime":634.46,"body":"on the top and fit it with a"},{"startTime":629.46,"endTime":634.46,"body":"mortise and tenon and joint,"},{"startTime":634.47,"endTime":638.03,"body":"the solid stone next to it"},{"startTime":634.47,"endTime":638.03,"body":"will keep the wobbly one"},{"startTime":638.03,"endTime":641.82,"body":"on the other side upright forever."},{"startTime":641.82,"endTime":643.98,"body":"It didn't."},{"startTime":641.82,"endTime":643.98,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":643.98,"endTime":645.96,"body":"At some point afterwards,"},{"startTime":645.96,"endTime":648.03,"body":"it may have been very swiftly,"},{"startTime":648.03,"endTime":650.61,"body":"or it may have been a few hundred years,"},{"startTime":650.61,"endTime":654.48,"body":"the shorter stone rocked"},{"startTime":650.61,"endTime":654.48,"body":"over, skidded out,"},{"startTime":654.48,"endTime":656.82,"body":"fell over and broke in half,"},{"startTime":656.82,"endTime":661.82,"body":"knocking over the altar stone"},{"startTime":656.82,"endTime":661.82,"body":"and shedding its huge lintel."},{"startTime":662.1,"endTime":665.921,"body":"The interior of Stonehenge"},{"startTime":662.1,"endTime":665.921,"body":"was now littered with giant,"},{"startTime":665.921,"endTime":670.921,"body":"broken stones and could not"},{"startTime":665.921,"endTime":670.921,"body":"be used for ritual thereafter."},{"startTime":672.78,"endTime":676.02,"body":"In fact, it's possible"},{"startTime":672.78,"endTime":676.02,"body":"it happened so swiftly"},{"startTime":676.02,"endTime":678.96,"body":"that Stonehenge was never finished."},{"startTime":678.96,"endTime":682.32,"body":"There is no solid evidence"},{"startTime":678.96,"endTime":682.32,"body":"that the outer circle was"},{"startTime":682.32,"endTime":684.99,"body":"completed to the southwest."},{"startTime":684.99,"endTime":686.43,"body":"There are holes there,"},{"startTime":686.43,"endTime":689.31,"body":"but no proof that stones"},{"startTime":686.43,"endTime":689.31,"body":"were ever in them."},{"startTime":689.31,"endTime":691.32,"body":"There are no stones there."},{"startTime":691.32,"endTime":694.74,"body":"So Stonehenge could be one"},{"startTime":691.32,"endTime":694.74,"body":"of the great architectural"},{"startTime":694.74,"endTime":699.74,"body":"disasters of human"},{"startTime":694.74,"endTime":699.74,"body":"enterprise built by cowboys,"},{"startTime":701.146,"endTime":702.39,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":702.39,"endTime":706.11,"body":"working to an over ambitious plan."},{"startTime":706.11,"endTime":709.683,"body":"And that's all that we can say for sure."},{"startTime":710.7,"endTime":714.69,"body":"So what can we say about why"},{"startTime":710.7,"endTime":714.69,"body":"it was built and what religion"},{"startTime":714.69,"endTime":717.24,"body":"inspired it and was conducted there?"},{"startTime":717.24,"endTime":720.87,"body":"Well, the sensible answer is"},{"startTime":717.24,"endTime":720.87,"body":"we haven't got the faintest,"},{"startTime":720.87,"endTime":724.02,"body":"but each generation produces"},{"startTime":724.02,"endTime":727.26,"body":"a range of different possibilities."},{"startTime":727.26,"endTime":729.87,"body":"And the first person with"},{"startTime":727.26,"endTime":729.87,"body":"the nails and the guts"},{"startTime":729.87,"endTime":733.86,"body":"to say this was the great"},{"startTime":729.87,"endTime":733.86,"body":"Elizabethian Antiquary,"},{"startTime":733.86,"endTime":738.24,"body":"William Camden in 1580, who stated,"},{"startTime":738.24,"endTime":741.42,"body":"Stonehenge is a fantastic monument."},{"startTime":741.42,"endTime":743.7,"body":"We've no agreement on why it was built."},{"startTime":743.7,"endTime":745.68,"body":"Here are the current theories."},{"startTime":745.68,"endTime":748.41,"body":"And in fact, every sensible guide"},{"startTime":748.41,"endTime":751.275,"body":"to Stonehenge ever since has just repeated"},{"startTime":751.275,"endTime":755.04,"body":"that tactic right down to and including"},{"startTime":755.04,"endTime":758.46,"body":"the current English heritage guidebook."},{"startTime":758.46,"endTime":762.576,"body":"But the great thing about leaving"},{"startTime":758.46,"endTime":762.576,"body":"the question of why it was"},{"startTime":762.576,"endTime":767.01,"body":"built open is that it clears the way"},{"startTime":767.01,"endTime":771.24,"body":"for breakthrough hypotheses, great ideas"},{"startTime":771.24,"endTime":773.375,"body":"to try and solve the mystery."},{"startTime":773.375,"endTime":775.44,"body":"And there have been a number of these."},{"startTime":775.44,"endTime":780.44,"body":"The earliest and most successful"},{"startTime":775.44,"endTime":780.44,"body":"was by Geoffrey of Monmouth"},{"startTime":780.54,"endTime":784.53,"body":"in the 1140s who said"},{"startTime":780.54,"endTime":784.53,"body":"that Stonehenge was built"},{"startTime":784.53,"endTime":789.27,"body":"by the Wizard Merlin as a war memorial."},{"startTime":789.27,"endTime":792.24,"body":"And this seemed so self-evidently sensible"},{"startTime":792.24,"endTime":796.62,"body":"to the Middle Ages that it"},{"startTime":792.24,"endTime":796.62,"body":"was the most long lasting"},{"startTime":796.62,"endTime":799.29,"body":"of all the breakthrough hypotheses."},{"startTime":799.29,"endTime":804.29,"body":"It only ran out of steam in"},{"startTime":799.29,"endTime":804.29,"body":"the 17th century and got dumped"},{"startTime":804.42,"endTime":807.63,"body":"in the 18th, when it was dumped,"},{"startTime":807.63,"endTime":810.75,"body":"that cleared the way for number two,"},{"startTime":810.75,"endTime":812.73,"body":"that of William Stukeley,"},{"startTime":812.73,"endTime":817.73,"body":"the father of the discipline"},{"startTime":812.73,"endTime":817.73,"body":"of archeology, Stukeley,"},{"startTime":819.06,"endTime":824.06,"body":"had worked out by surveying"},{"startTime":819.06,"endTime":824.06,"body":"and by excavation that"},{"startTime":824.798,"endTime":829.77,"body":"Stonehenge was definitely"},{"startTime":824.798,"endTime":829.77,"body":"built by the pre-Roman British,"},{"startTime":829.77,"endTime":833.76,"body":"not by the Romans or by"},{"startTime":829.77,"endTime":833.76,"body":"the post-Roman British"},{"startTime":833.76,"endTime":838.5,"body":"or the Vikings or Anglo-Saxons"},{"startTime":833.76,"endTime":838.5,"body":"as had been thought."},{"startTime":838.5,"endTime":843.5,"body":"And what history told"},{"startTime":838.5,"endTime":843.5,"body":"us was that the priests"},{"startTime":843.57,"endTime":846.87,"body":"of the pre-Roman British were the druids."},{"startTime":846.87,"endTime":849.54,"body":"And so quite logically, he declared"},{"startTime":849.54,"endTime":853.29,"body":"that Stonehenge was"},{"startTime":849.54,"endTime":853.29,"body":"the work of the druids."},{"startTime":853.29,"endTime":858.29,"body":"And this idea held sway"},{"startTime":853.29,"endTime":858.29,"body":"at least in popular minds"},{"startTime":858.51,"endTime":862.41,"body":"until the 1950s and 1960s."},{"startTime":862.41,"endTime":864.75,"body":"Only then did the message get through"},{"startTime":864.75,"endTime":869.16,"body":"from early 20th century archeologists"},{"startTime":869.16,"endTime":874.08,"body":"that Stonehenge had been built"},{"startTime":869.16,"endTime":874.08,"body":"two and a half thousand years"},{"startTime":874.08,"endTime":875.91,"body":"before the druids were recorded as"},{"startTime":875.91,"endTime":879.24,"body":"being around and so much had changed"},{"startTime":879.24,"endTime":884.1,"body":"in prehistoric British culture"},{"startTime":879.24,"endTime":884.1,"body":"and monuments in between."},{"startTime":884.1,"endTime":888.18,"body":"It's unlikely that it"},{"startTime":884.1,"endTime":888.18,"body":"represented the same religion,"},{"startTime":888.18,"endTime":890.22,"body":"though it's still possible."},{"startTime":890.22,"endTime":892.44,"body":"So when the druids went down,"},{"startTime":892.44,"endTime":897.44,"body":"the scientists moved in an"},{"startTime":892.44,"endTime":897.44,"body":"astronomer at Boston University."},{"startTime":897.69,"endTime":902.69,"body":"Gerald Hawkins in the 1960s"},{"startTime":897.69,"endTime":902.69,"body":"put all the data for Stonehenge"},{"startTime":903.81,"endTime":907.98,"body":"through a computer to"},{"startTime":903.81,"endTime":907.98,"body":"discover why it was built."},{"startTime":907.98,"endTime":912.72,"body":"And the result reveals that"},{"startTime":907.98,"endTime":912.72,"body":"computers have egos just as much"},{"startTime":912.72,"endTime":917.52,"body":"as human beings because"},{"startTime":912.72,"endTime":917.52,"body":"Hawkins computer concluded that"},{"startTime":917.52,"endTime":920.055,"body":"Stonehenge had been a computer"},{"startTime":920.055,"endTime":920.888,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":920.888,"endTime":925.29,"body":"designed to predict"},{"startTime":920.888,"endTime":925.29,"body":"heavenly bodies' movement."},{"startTime":925.29,"endTime":927.9,"body":"And that lasted for about 20 years"},{"startTime":927.9,"endTime":932.793,"body":"before the data Hawkins had"},{"startTime":927.9,"endTime":932.793,"body":"used was revealed to be faulty."},{"startTime":933.9,"endTime":936.69,"body":"In the 2000s, English heritage decided"},{"startTime":936.69,"endTime":940.92,"body":"to go for broke by allowing"},{"startTime":936.69,"endTime":940.92,"body":"two different top teams"},{"startTime":940.92,"endTime":944.37,"body":"of archeologists to come in and settle"},{"startTime":944.37,"endTime":946.323,"body":"the question once and for all."},{"startTime":948.551,"endTime":951.45,"body":"The first was the spaces project led"},{"startTime":951.45,"endTime":954.06,"body":"by Geoffrey Wainwright and Tim Darvill"},{"startTime":954.06,"endTime":956.002,"body":"who are on the screen."},{"startTime":956.002,"endTime":961.002,"body":"These applied their considerable"},{"startTime":956.002,"endTime":961.002,"body":"experience and aptitude to"},{"startTime":961.812,"endTime":965.46,"body":"the question and concluded"},{"startTime":961.812,"endTime":965.46,"body":"that Stonehenge had a bit of"},{"startTime":965.46,"endTime":969.09,"body":"gigantic magical healing center,"},{"startTime":969.09,"endTime":973.32,"body":"a kind of prehistoric lured"},{"startTime":969.09,"endTime":973.32,"body":"to which the living came"},{"startTime":973.32,"endTime":975.9,"body":"to be made well in body and mind,"},{"startTime":975.9,"endTime":977.943,"body":"and they are absolutely certain of that."},{"startTime":979.08,"endTime":983.58,"body":"But at the same time, the"},{"startTime":979.08,"endTime":983.58,"body":"Stonehenge Riverside Project led"},{"startTime":983.58,"endTime":986.49,"body":"by Mike Parker Pearson on the screen,"},{"startTime":986.49,"endTime":989.4,"body":"and practically every other"},{"startTime":986.49,"endTime":989.4,"body":"archeologist who wasn't"},{"startTime":989.4,"endTime":993.6,"body":"in the Spaces Project"},{"startTime":989.4,"endTime":993.6,"body":"came in, did their work,"},{"startTime":993.6,"endTime":998.04,"body":"and concluded absolutely"},{"startTime":993.6,"endTime":998.04,"body":"that Stonehenge had been"},{"startTime":998.04,"endTime":1000.86,"body":"a shrine dedicated to the dead,"},{"startTime":1000.86,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"which the living visited at"},{"startTime":1000.86,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"the winter solstice in order"},{"startTime":1004.52,"endTime":1008.57,"body":"to pay their respect and"},{"startTime":1004.52,"endTime":1008.57,"body":"otherwise didn't come near."},{"startTime":1008.57,"endTime":1013.57,"body":"Now these two interpretations"},{"startTime":1008.57,"endTime":1013.57,"body":"are completely incompatible"},{"startTime":1014.84,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"and they were produced by top"},{"startTime":1014.84,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"teams of archeologists working"},{"startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1020.843,"body":"from excellent data."},{"startTime":1021.71,"endTime":1025.4,"body":"The sensible conclusion"},{"startTime":1021.71,"endTime":1025.4,"body":"to draw is that short"},{"startTime":1025.4,"endTime":1030.05,"body":"of a miracle, we will never"},{"startTime":1025.4,"endTime":1030.05,"body":"know why Stonehenge was built."},{"startTime":1030.05,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"And in practice that leaves"},{"startTime":1030.05,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"the way open for people"},{"startTime":1034.16,"endTime":1037.13,"body":"to interpret the monument according"},{"startTime":1037.13,"endTime":1039.5,"body":"to their own gut reactions,"},{"startTime":1039.5,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"their instinctual views of"},{"startTime":1039.5,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"the human and divine worlds."},{"startTime":1044.75,"endTime":1047.12,"body":"And for the last half millennium,"},{"startTime":1047.12,"endTime":1050.93,"body":"there have been two main reactions."},{"startTime":1050.93,"endTime":1053.57,"body":"One is the benevolent one,"},{"startTime":1053.57,"endTime":1058.57,"body":"one which sees prehistoric"},{"startTime":1053.57,"endTime":1058.57,"body":"peoples as in many ways closer"},{"startTime":1058.58,"endTime":1063.558,"body":"to nature and therefore"},{"startTime":1058.58,"endTime":1063.558,"body":"wiser than later peoples."},{"startTime":1063.558,"endTime":1068.09,"body":"And those who also see humanity as being"},{"startTime":1068.09,"endTime":1071.03,"body":"essentially good and benevolent."},{"startTime":1071.03,"endTime":1074.03,"body":"And so the simpler and further back we go,"},{"startTime":1074.03,"endTime":1076.88,"body":"the more those qualities are enhanced."},{"startTime":1076.88,"endTime":1080.24,"body":"So this school would see"},{"startTime":1076.88,"endTime":1080.24,"body":"pre-history as a time"},{"startTime":1080.24,"endTime":1085.24,"body":"of considerable creativity"},{"startTime":1080.24,"endTime":1085.24,"body":"of closeness to nature."},{"startTime":1085.49,"endTime":1087.77,"body":"Okay, that's the wizard Gandalf looking"},{"startTime":1087.77,"endTime":1089.3,"body":"at the Cottingley Fairies."},{"startTime":1089.3,"endTime":1094.3,"body":"But the slide kind of makes"},{"startTime":1089.3,"endTime":1094.3,"body":"the point of a general generic"},{"startTime":1094.52,"endTime":1098.81,"body":"closeness of mystical communion"},{"startTime":1098.81,"endTime":1103.343,"body":"with nature and romance"},{"startTime":1098.81,"endTime":1103.343,"body":"and self expression."},{"startTime":1104.57,"endTime":1108.95,"body":"But there has always been a contrary view"},{"startTime":1108.95,"endTime":1110.66,"body":"of humanity and religion."},{"startTime":1110.66,"endTime":1113.543,"body":"And that is the hostile one."},{"startTime":1114.44,"endTime":1119.44,"body":"And this springs from a number"},{"startTime":1114.44,"endTime":1119.44,"body":"of very deep felt instincts."},{"startTime":1121.04,"endTime":1126.04,"body":"One is to view religion"},{"startTime":1121.04,"endTime":1126.04,"body":"itself as something that is"},{"startTime":1127.46,"endTime":1130.79,"body":"corrupting and deluding for humans,"},{"startTime":1130.79,"endTime":1135.74,"body":"or alternatively to use"},{"startTime":1130.79,"endTime":1135.74,"body":"prehistoric religion as a way of"},{"startTime":1135.74,"endTime":1138.62,"body":"being nasty about religion you don't like"},{"startTime":1138.62,"endTime":1140.72,"body":"in other people at the present day."},{"startTime":1140.72,"endTime":1145.58,"body":"So coming down on pagans or"},{"startTime":1140.72,"endTime":1145.58,"body":"people who like lots of ritual"},{"startTime":1145.58,"endTime":1149.153,"body":"like Roman Catholics"},{"startTime":1145.58,"endTime":1149.153,"body":"or Orthodox Christians,"},{"startTime":1150.8,"endTime":1154.79,"body":"you really take your"},{"startTime":1150.8,"endTime":1154.79,"body":"pick as to your target."},{"startTime":1154.79,"endTime":1158.69,"body":"And also it's instinctual"},{"startTime":1154.79,"endTime":1158.69,"body":"to people who feel"},{"startTime":1158.69,"endTime":1160.97,"body":"that left to their own devices."},{"startTime":1160.97,"endTime":1164.03,"body":"Human beings unrestrained"},{"startTime":1160.97,"endTime":1164.03,"body":"are pretty horrible."},{"startTime":1164.03,"endTime":1167.57,"body":"It's the Lord of the Flies"},{"startTime":1164.03,"endTime":1167.57,"body":"view of human nature."},{"startTime":1167.57,"endTime":1170.45,"body":"And therefore, the further"},{"startTime":1167.57,"endTime":1170.45,"body":"back you go in time,"},{"startTime":1170.45,"endTime":1173.57,"body":"the more primeval human beings get,"},{"startTime":1173.57,"endTime":1175.61,"body":"the worse they have to get."},{"startTime":1175.61,"endTime":1177.68,"body":"And so instead of religion of closeness"},{"startTime":1177.68,"endTime":1180.8,"body":"to nature of gazing at the stars"},{"startTime":1180.8,"endTime":1183.35,"body":"of benevolence to humanity,"},{"startTime":1183.35,"endTime":1188.35,"body":"you get one of gloom, gore,"},{"startTime":1183.35,"endTime":1188.35,"body":"despotism, and ignorance"},{"startTime":1189.23,"endTime":1193.861,"body":"with a particularly tacky"},{"startTime":1189.23,"endTime":1193.861,"body":"line in human sacrifice."},{"startTime":1193.861,"endTime":1198.2,"body":"And this has been applied"},{"startTime":1193.861,"endTime":1198.2,"body":"to Stonehenge wholesale."},{"startTime":1198.2,"endTime":1203.2,"body":"You have there an Edwardian"},{"startTime":1198.2,"endTime":1203.2,"body":"cartoon of druids committing"},{"startTime":1203.69,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"a human sacrifice at Stonehenge."},{"startTime":1207.41,"endTime":1209.18,"body":"And here's the same thing about"},{"startTime":1209.18,"endTime":1212.66,"body":"to happen in a modern TV drama."},{"startTime":1212.66,"endTime":1215.18,"body":"All that's happened as"},{"startTime":1212.66,"endTime":1215.18,"body":"we've gone into color"},{"startTime":1215.18,"endTime":1218.988,"body":"and the druids have lost their"},{"startTime":1215.18,"endTime":1218.988,"body":"beards and turned into punks,"},{"startTime":1218.988,"endTime":1219.821,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1219.821,"endTime":1222.62,"body":"but it's the same basic message."},{"startTime":1222.62,"endTime":1225.89,"body":"Now these ideas run concurrently,"},{"startTime":1225.89,"endTime":1228.59,"body":"but there are boom periods for each."},{"startTime":1228.59,"endTime":1232.4,"body":"The 18th century was a great"},{"startTime":1228.59,"endTime":1232.4,"body":"time for the benevolent view"},{"startTime":1232.4,"endTime":1236.12,"body":"because it was the age of"},{"startTime":1232.4,"endTime":1236.12,"body":"reason, seeing human beings as"},{"startTime":1236.12,"endTime":1241.12,"body":"essentially rational and of"},{"startTime":1236.12,"endTime":1241.12,"body":"the cult of the noble savage."},{"startTime":1241.22,"endTime":1244.13,"body":"The Victorians were much more inclined"},{"startTime":1244.13,"endTime":1246.98,"body":"to the harsh and brutal view,"},{"startTime":1246.98,"endTime":1251.93,"body":"both because at that time we"},{"startTime":1246.98,"endTime":1251.93,"body":"are creating a British Empire,"},{"startTime":1251.93,"endTime":1256.93,"body":"especially in Africa and India"},{"startTime":1251.93,"endTime":1256.93,"body":"and subduing large numbers"},{"startTime":1257.18,"endTime":1261.2,"body":"of traditional peoples"},{"startTime":1257.18,"endTime":1261.2,"body":"with indigenous religions."},{"startTime":1261.2,"endTime":1264.89,"body":"And so ancient paganism was often equated"},{"startTime":1264.89,"endTime":1269.87,"body":"with the traditional religions"},{"startTime":1264.89,"endTime":1269.87,"body":"of the rest of the world,"},{"startTime":1269.87,"endTime":1274.87,"body":"which was being absorbed into"},{"startTime":1269.87,"endTime":1274.87,"body":"European imperial systems."},{"startTime":1275.09,"endTime":1277.1,"body":"And also the 19th century was"},{"startTime":1277.1,"endTime":1280.52,"body":"very big on the new idea of evolution,"},{"startTime":1280.52,"endTime":1283.82,"body":"which suggested that things"},{"startTime":1280.52,"endTime":1283.82,"body":"are always getting better"},{"startTime":1283.82,"endTime":1287.75,"body":"in terms of natural"},{"startTime":1283.82,"endTime":1287.75,"body":"selection and eventually"},{"startTime":1287.75,"endTime":1291.74,"body":"of intellectual and humane prowess."},{"startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1296.74,"body":"So you would see the world as"},{"startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1296.74,"body":"a steady upward staircase from"},{"startTime":1297.963,"endTime":1302.87,"body":"a protoplasmic atomic globule"},{"startTime":1297.963,"endTime":1302.87,"body":"rigging in the pre-Cambrian"},{"startTime":1302.87,"endTime":1307.16,"body":"slime till eventually through"},{"startTime":1302.87,"endTime":1307.16,"body":"higher and higher life forms"},{"startTime":1307.16,"endTime":1309.556,"body":"you reach Queen Victoria."},{"startTime":1309.556,"endTime":1311.75,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1309.556,"endTime":1311.75,"body":"And this view,"},{"startTime":1311.75,"endTime":1315.71,"body":"of course was going to be"},{"startTime":1311.75,"endTime":1315.71,"body":"harsh on British pre-history"},{"startTime":1315.71,"endTime":1319.43,"body":"because it was so far"},{"startTime":1315.71,"endTime":1319.43,"body":"back, it had to be awful."},{"startTime":1319.43,"endTime":1323.843,"body":"And again, this view is"},{"startTime":1319.43,"endTime":1323.843,"body":"as tenable as the other."},{"startTime":1323.843,"endTime":1328.13,"body":"We have no idea where the"},{"startTime":1323.843,"endTime":1328.13,"body":"truth lies because the evidence"},{"startTime":1328.13,"endTime":1332.12,"body":"can be interpreted in"},{"startTime":1328.13,"endTime":1332.12,"body":"so many different ways."},{"startTime":1332.12,"endTime":1335.54,"body":"And I'm going to illustrate"},{"startTime":1332.12,"endTime":1335.54,"body":"that argument further"},{"startTime":1335.54,"endTime":1339.08,"body":"by going to my second case study."},{"startTime":1339.08,"endTime":1341.87,"body":"It's time for us to leave Stonehenge,"},{"startTime":1341.87,"endTime":1346.623,"body":"join a traffic jam on"},{"startTime":1341.87,"endTime":1346.623,"body":"the A303, head up the M3,"},{"startTime":1347.6,"endTime":1351.14,"body":"meet a bigger traffic jam on the M25,"},{"startTime":1351.14,"endTime":1353.95,"body":"and eventually enter London and end up"},{"startTime":1353.95,"endTime":1355.97,"body":"at the British Museum."},{"startTime":1355.97,"endTime":1360.97,"body":"And in the Celtic Gallery"},{"startTime":1355.97,"endTime":1360.97,"body":"you will find this gentleman,"},{"startTime":1361.25,"endTime":1366.25,"body":"Lindow Man, arguably the"},{"startTime":1361.25,"endTime":1366.25,"body":"most sensational find"},{"startTime":1366.89,"endTime":1370.697,"body":"of British archeology in the 1980s,"},{"startTime":1370.697,"endTime":1375.697,"body":"and the most carefully"},{"startTime":1370.697,"endTime":1375.697,"body":"investigated human body"},{"startTime":1376.01,"endTime":1380.63,"body":"until that time, it's the upper part,"},{"startTime":1380.63,"endTime":1385.63,"body":"or here's the upper part of a"},{"startTime":1380.63,"endTime":1385.63,"body":"human body found in a peat bog"},{"startTime":1385.82,"endTime":1390.057,"body":"called Lindow Moss south"},{"startTime":1385.82,"endTime":1390.057,"body":"of Manchester in 1984"},{"startTime":1391.13,"endTime":1393.86,"body":"with the remains of one leg."},{"startTime":1393.86,"endTime":1397.01,"body":"Peat cutting equipment"},{"startTime":1393.86,"endTime":1397.01,"body":"had dismembered the body"},{"startTime":1397.01,"endTime":1399.95,"body":"before the remnants were found,"},{"startTime":1399.95,"endTime":1404.09,"body":"it was immediately taken for study."},{"startTime":1404.09,"endTime":1409.09,"body":"It ended up in London where"},{"startTime":1404.09,"endTime":1409.09,"body":"a top pathologist called"},{"startTime":1409.19,"endTime":1412.73,"body":"Ian West, studied it and suggested"},{"startTime":1412.73,"endTime":1415.199,"body":"that the man concerned had died as"},{"startTime":1415.199,"endTime":1419.15,"body":"the result of a horrific triple killing."},{"startTime":1419.15,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"His skull had been"},{"startTime":1419.15,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"smashed by a heavy object."},{"startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1427.31,"body":"His neck had been broken"},{"startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1427.31,"body":"by a strangling tourniquet,"},{"startTime":1427.31,"endTime":1430.1,"body":"a garrote, the loop of which was still"},{"startTime":1430.1,"endTime":1433.04,"body":"around his neck sunk into the flesh,"},{"startTime":1433.04,"endTime":1436.64,"body":"and his jugular vein had been sliced open"},{"startTime":1436.64,"endTime":1438.38,"body":"to bleed him to death."},{"startTime":1438.38,"endTime":1439.46,"body":"And all these things"},{"startTime":1439.46,"endTime":1442.67,"body":"that apparently occurred simultaneously."},{"startTime":1442.67,"endTime":1446.576,"body":"Now by anybody's reckoning,"},{"startTime":1442.67,"endTime":1446.576,"body":"this is overkill."},{"startTime":1446.576,"endTime":1447.5,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1447.5,"endTime":1451.1,"body":"And so it appeared as if"},{"startTime":1447.5,"endTime":1451.1,"body":"he'd been put to death"},{"startTime":1451.1,"endTime":1455.54,"body":"in a horrifically brutal,"},{"startTime":1451.1,"endTime":1455.54,"body":"ritualized killing."},{"startTime":1455.54,"endTime":1460.54,"body":"And he was dated by the radio"},{"startTime":1455.54,"endTime":1460.54,"body":"carbon method to the Iron Age."},{"startTime":1461.6,"endTime":1466.43,"body":"And this was the time when"},{"startTime":1461.6,"endTime":1466.43,"body":"the druids really were supreme"},{"startTime":1466.43,"endTime":1469.37,"body":"in Britain and northwestern Europe,"},{"startTime":1469.37,"endTime":1474.37,"body":"and many Roman and some"},{"startTime":1469.37,"endTime":1474.37,"body":"Greek writers at the time had"},{"startTime":1474.625,"endTime":1479.625,"body":"accused the druids of being"},{"startTime":1474.625,"endTime":1479.625,"body":"addicted to human sacrifice."},{"startTime":1480.47,"endTime":1482.66,"body":"And here was the proof,"},{"startTime":1482.66,"endTime":1487.52,"body":"the physical evidence of"},{"startTime":1482.66,"endTime":1487.52,"body":"a druidic ritual killing."},{"startTime":1487.52,"endTime":1492.38,"body":"And it went into the British"},{"startTime":1487.52,"endTime":1492.38,"body":"Museum with that label on it"},{"startTime":1492.38,"endTime":1497.38,"body":"and became the display"},{"startTime":1492.38,"endTime":1497.38,"body":"in the gallery concerned,"},{"startTime":1497.72,"endTime":1502.28,"body":"which was most visited, a"},{"startTime":1497.72,"endTime":1502.28,"body":"standing example of the horror"},{"startTime":1502.28,"endTime":1504.407,"body":"and brutality of the druids"},{"startTime":1504.407,"endTime":1506.51,"body":"and of prehistoric British religion."},{"startTime":1506.51,"endTime":1507.86,"body":"And as such,"},{"startTime":1507.86,"endTime":1510.08,"body":"it had a knock on effect on attitudes"},{"startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1514.493,"body":"to alternative spiritualties"},{"startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1514.493,"body":"in the modern age."},{"startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1519.92,"body":"Fundamentalist Christian"},{"startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1519.92,"body":"novels from the Victorian"},{"startTime":1519.92,"endTime":1524.92,"body":"and early 20th century period"},{"startTime":1519.92,"endTime":1524.92,"body":"were republished in the 1990s,"},{"startTime":1526.22,"endTime":1529.46,"body":"the novels concerned were"},{"startTime":1526.22,"endTime":1529.46,"body":"about the horror and brutality"},{"startTime":1529.46,"endTime":1531.86,"body":"of the pagan druids and the goodness"},{"startTime":1531.86,"endTime":1535.61,"body":"of Christianity in putting paid to them."},{"startTime":1535.61,"endTime":1539.27,"body":"And new prefaces said,"},{"startTime":1535.61,"endTime":1539.27,"body":"if you doubt the truth"},{"startTime":1539.27,"endTime":1542.36,"body":"of anything in what we"},{"startTime":1539.27,"endTime":1542.36,"body":"thought was fiction,"},{"startTime":1542.36,"endTime":1544.88,"body":"just go and see Lindow Man."},{"startTime":1544.88,"endTime":1547.94,"body":"And you know how awful"},{"startTime":1544.88,"endTime":1547.94,"body":"the druids really were."},{"startTime":1547.94,"endTime":1551.57,"body":"And therefore, we must not let new pagan"},{"startTime":1551.57,"endTime":1555.95,"body":"or druidic spiritualties"},{"startTime":1551.57,"endTime":1555.95,"body":"reappear in modern Britain."},{"startTime":1555.95,"endTime":1558.98,"body":"We must remain true Christians otherwise"},{"startTime":1558.98,"endTime":1560.69,"body":"this horror would come back."},{"startTime":1560.69,"endTime":1564.86,"body":"Now this is the work of"},{"startTime":1560.69,"endTime":1564.86,"body":"religious fundamentalists,"},{"startTime":1564.86,"endTime":1569.84,"body":"but even the supposedly liberal"},{"startTime":1564.86,"endTime":1569.84,"body":"Guardian newspaper cashed in"},{"startTime":1569.84,"endTime":1574.84,"body":"on this line when the gallery"},{"startTime":1569.84,"endTime":1574.84,"body":"concerned was renovated"},{"startTime":1575.0,"endTime":1576.983,"body":"at the end of the 2000s,"},{"startTime":1579.59,"endTime":1583.67,"body":"a guardian journalist ran an item"},{"startTime":1583.67,"endTime":1587.75,"body":"on this process and he said,"},{"startTime":1587.75,"endTime":1591.65,"body":"following the label on the exhibit,"},{"startTime":1591.65,"endTime":1594.62,"body":"that this was a victim of the druids,"},{"startTime":1594.62,"endTime":1597.14,"body":"and we know who are the perpetrators"},{"startTime":1597.14,"endTime":1599.18,"body":"and they're still around."},{"startTime":1599.18,"endTime":1602.89,"body":"So when you go and see these"},{"startTime":1599.18,"endTime":1602.89,"body":"supposedly harmless people"},{"startTime":1602.89,"endTime":1606.38,"body":"in their natty white robes performing"},{"startTime":1606.38,"endTime":1609.26,"body":"their funny rights at Stonehenge,"},{"startTime":1609.26,"endTime":1613.19,"body":"be aware that all this could"},{"startTime":1609.26,"endTime":1613.19,"body":"come back at any moment."},{"startTime":1613.19,"endTime":1617.545,"body":"You are only a heart"},{"startTime":1613.19,"endTime":1617.545,"body":"beat away from horror."},{"startTime":1617.545,"endTime":1619.43,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1619.43,"endTime":1621.14,"body":"Well, fair enough,"},{"startTime":1621.14,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"if the evidence is sound"},{"startTime":1621.14,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"and like most people,"},{"startTime":1624.71,"endTime":1626.45,"body":"I thought it must be."},{"startTime":1626.45,"endTime":1630.503,"body":"But then come the 2000s,"},{"startTime":1626.45,"endTime":1630.503,"body":"I noticed two things."},{"startTime":1631.58,"endTime":1636.58,"body":"The first was that there was a"},{"startTime":1631.58,"endTime":1636.58,"body":"double standard in evaluating"},{"startTime":1639.17,"endTime":1642.413,"body":"the reports of the Greeks and the Romans."},{"startTime":1643.55,"endTime":1647.96,"body":"And this was noticed by more"},{"startTime":1643.55,"endTime":1647.96,"body":"and more experts in Greek and"},{"startTime":1647.96,"endTime":1651.84,"body":"Roman culture because the"},{"startTime":1647.96,"endTime":1651.84,"body":"accusation of committing human"},{"startTime":1651.84,"endTime":1656.84,"body":"sacrifice was one which"},{"startTime":1651.84,"endTime":1656.84,"body":"both peoples levied against"},{"startTime":1657.49,"endTime":1661.79,"body":"foreigners whom they wanted"},{"startTime":1657.49,"endTime":1661.79,"body":"to do down and people in their"},{"startTime":1661.79,"endTime":1665.27,"body":"own society whom they wish to persecute."},{"startTime":1665.27,"endTime":1668.69,"body":"It was a standard smear tactic."},{"startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.83,"body":"And it was noticed also that"},{"startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.83,"body":"when the Romans made the same"},{"startTime":1672.83,"endTime":1676.82,"body":"charge of people like the"},{"startTime":1672.83,"endTime":1676.82,"body":"Jews or the early Christians,"},{"startTime":1676.82,"endTime":1680.78,"body":"nobody now believes it"},{"startTime":1676.82,"endTime":1680.78,"body":"because those have left"},{"startTime":1680.78,"endTime":1683.03,"body":"powerful lobbies in the modern world."},{"startTime":1683.03,"endTime":1688.03,"body":"And also we have good records"},{"startTime":1683.03,"endTime":1688.03,"body":"for their actual practices"},{"startTime":1688.07,"endTime":1689.657,"body":"from the ancient world."},{"startTime":1689.657,"endTime":1692.81,"body":"And we know they didn't"},{"startTime":1689.657,"endTime":1692.81,"body":"commit human sacrifice."},{"startTime":1692.81,"endTime":1697.01,"body":"So we don't believe the"},{"startTime":1692.81,"endTime":1697.01,"body":"Romans and the Greeks,"},{"startTime":1697.01,"endTime":1699.56,"body":"but when the Romans and the"},{"startTime":1697.01,"endTime":1699.56,"body":"Greeks make the same charge"},{"startTime":1699.56,"endTime":1703.13,"body":"about foreign pagan peoples"},{"startTime":1699.56,"endTime":1703.13,"body":"who haven't left direct"},{"startTime":1703.13,"endTime":1706.855,"body":"descendants and who haven't"},{"startTime":1703.13,"endTime":1706.855,"body":"left us good written records"},{"startTime":1706.855,"endTime":1710.75,"body":"like the druids, most people believe them."},{"startTime":1710.75,"endTime":1714.38,"body":"So there is an uncomfortable"},{"startTime":1710.75,"endTime":1714.38,"body":"double standard here,"},{"startTime":1714.38,"endTime":1716.78,"body":"which needs to be interrogated."},{"startTime":1716.78,"endTime":1718.28,"body":"And in the case of the Druids,"},{"startTime":1718.28,"endTime":1722.33,"body":"the Romans had a particularly good reason"},{"startTime":1722.33,"endTime":1725.15,"body":"for accusing them of horrific practices,"},{"startTime":1725.15,"endTime":1729.23,"body":"which was it was a large"},{"startTime":1725.15,"endTime":1729.23,"body":"justification for the conquest"},{"startTime":1729.23,"endTime":1732.02,"body":"and subjugation of their peoples"},{"startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1735.11,"body":"by the Romans that they"},{"startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1735.11,"body":"were taking these masses"},{"startTime":1735.11,"endTime":1739.61,"body":"of land in order to"},{"startTime":1735.11,"endTime":1739.61,"body":"civilize and domesticate"},{"startTime":1739.61,"endTime":1742.64,"body":"the tribes concerned, including improving"},{"startTime":1742.64,"endTime":1744.62,"body":"their disgusting religion."},{"startTime":1744.62,"endTime":1747.86,"body":"So there's a clear propaganda incentive."},{"startTime":1747.86,"endTime":1752.153,"body":"And the Greeks who wrote"},{"startTime":1747.86,"endTime":1752.153,"body":"were in Roman employ."},{"startTime":1753.17,"endTime":1757.7,"body":"So a question mark now exists"},{"startTime":1753.17,"endTime":1757.7,"body":"over the ancient evidence."},{"startTime":1757.7,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"It's also noted that"},{"startTime":1757.7,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"bodies are found in bogs"},{"startTime":1762.41,"endTime":1767.41,"body":"from the late prehistoric"},{"startTime":1762.41,"endTime":1767.41,"body":"period across northern Europe,"},{"startTime":1767.51,"endTime":1771.5,"body":"especially in Germany, the"},{"startTime":1767.51,"endTime":1771.5,"body":"Netherlands, and Scandinavia."},{"startTime":1771.5,"endTime":1775.34,"body":"And some of them had"},{"startTime":1771.5,"endTime":1775.34,"body":"suffered horrific deaths,"},{"startTime":1775.34,"endTime":1777.41,"body":"deaths of great violence."},{"startTime":1777.41,"endTime":1780.5,"body":"And so there is a pattern here,"},{"startTime":1780.5,"endTime":1785.0,"body":"but the continental bodies"},{"startTime":1780.5,"endTime":1785.0,"body":"have been thought either to be"},{"startTime":1785.0,"endTime":1789.53,"body":"victims of human sacrifice"},{"startTime":1785.0,"endTime":1789.53,"body":"or executed criminals"},{"startTime":1789.53,"endTime":1793.133,"body":"or the victims of criminal act."},{"startTime":1794.36,"endTime":1797.6,"body":"Lindow Man was judged"},{"startTime":1794.36,"endTime":1797.6,"body":"to be a human sacrifice,"},{"startTime":1797.6,"endTime":1799.85,"body":"and that was the only option chosen."},{"startTime":1799.85,"endTime":1802.19,"body":"So that's problem number two."},{"startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1806.15,"body":"The third, what really mattered to me, was"},{"startTime":1806.15,"endTime":1810.56,"body":"revealed when I came across"},{"startTime":1806.15,"endTime":1810.56,"body":"one foggy winter evening"},{"startTime":1810.56,"endTime":1813.14,"body":"in a secondhand bookshop in Bristol,"},{"startTime":1813.14,"endTime":1815.99,"body":"the original British"},{"startTime":1813.14,"endTime":1815.99,"body":"Museum report on the body."},{"startTime":1815.99,"endTime":1819.41,"body":"And that revealed two things to me."},{"startTime":1819.41,"endTime":1823.91,"body":"The first was that it had"},{"startTime":1819.41,"endTime":1823.91,"body":"been studied initially"},{"startTime":1823.91,"endTime":1827.93,"body":"by two medical experts and not one,"},{"startTime":1827.93,"endTime":1832.1,"body":"one was Ian West and the"},{"startTime":1827.93,"endTime":1832.1,"body":"other was an anatomist"},{"startTime":1832.1,"endTime":1835.7,"body":"from Liverpool University"},{"startTime":1832.1,"endTime":1835.7,"body":"called Robert Connolly"},{"startTime":1835.7,"endTime":1839.48,"body":"who became the top anatomist there."},{"startTime":1839.48,"endTime":1843.573,"body":"And Connolly had seen the same"},{"startTime":1839.48,"endTime":1843.573,"body":"body at the same time and had"},{"startTime":1844.49,"endTime":1848.42,"body":"decided that the man had"},{"startTime":1844.49,"endTime":1848.42,"body":"been beaten to death."},{"startTime":1848.42,"endTime":1851.42,"body":"His skull had been"},{"startTime":1848.42,"endTime":1851.42,"body":"smashed by a heavy object"},{"startTime":1851.42,"endTime":1853.28,"body":"as West had agreed."},{"startTime":1853.28,"endTime":1856.37,"body":"But the broken neck"},{"startTime":1853.28,"endTime":1856.37,"body":"was not from garroting,"},{"startTime":1856.37,"endTime":1860.27,"body":"but from another blow in"},{"startTime":1856.37,"endTime":1860.27,"body":"the rain of the heavy object"},{"startTime":1860.27,"endTime":1862.94,"body":"which had also smashed a rib."},{"startTime":1862.94,"endTime":1865.94,"body":"The cord around the neck,"},{"startTime":1862.94,"endTime":1865.94,"body":"according to Connolly,"},{"startTime":1865.94,"endTime":1869.48,"body":"was not a garrote, it had been a necklace."},{"startTime":1869.48,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"And the reason why it was sunk"},{"startTime":1869.48,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"into the flesh was because"},{"startTime":1873.08,"endTime":1875.48,"body":"the flesh had swollen in the bog."},{"startTime":1875.48,"endTime":1877.1,"body":"Connolly said it showed none"},{"startTime":1877.1,"endTime":1882.1,"body":"of the trauma associated"},{"startTime":1877.1,"endTime":1882.1,"body":"with strangulation victims."},{"startTime":1882.38,"endTime":1885.71,"body":"And so Connolly concluded that instead"},{"startTime":1885.71,"endTime":1887.66,"body":"of a ritual triple death,"},{"startTime":1887.66,"endTime":1889.58,"body":"this is somebody who'd been hammered"},{"startTime":1889.58,"endTime":1892.01,"body":"to death by a club or an axe."},{"startTime":1892.01,"endTime":1895.64,"body":"And that was that, the cut"},{"startTime":1892.01,"endTime":1895.64,"body":"across the jugular vein,"},{"startTime":1895.64,"endTime":1896.94,"body":"Connolly said, had been caused"},{"startTime":1896.94,"endTime":1901.38,"body":"by a peat cutter spade many centuries"},{"startTime":1901.38,"endTime":1904.1,"body":"after the body went into the bog."},{"startTime":1904.1,"endTime":1908.81,"body":"So here we have two top"},{"startTime":1904.1,"endTime":1908.81,"body":"experts who like two top teams"},{"startTime":1908.81,"endTime":1911.81,"body":"of archeologists at"},{"startTime":1908.81,"endTime":1911.81,"body":"Stonehenge have come up"},{"startTime":1911.81,"endTime":1914.42,"body":"with utterly different conclusions."},{"startTime":1914.42,"endTime":1918.11,"body":"But one of them got buried,"},{"startTime":1914.42,"endTime":1918.11,"body":"and it was the sensational one"},{"startTime":1918.11,"endTime":1920.51,"body":"that got put on display."},{"startTime":1920.51,"endTime":1923.697,"body":"And even more disturbing was the dating."},{"startTime":1923.697,"endTime":1927.1,"body":"It was indeed dated as a body"},{"startTime":1927.1,"endTime":1931.67,"body":"to the Iron Age, 300 years"},{"startTime":1927.1,"endTime":1931.67,"body":"before the Christian era."},{"startTime":1931.67,"endTime":1934.67,"body":"But they then realized"},{"startTime":1931.67,"endTime":1934.67,"body":"what they were dating was"},{"startTime":1934.67,"endTime":1938.57,"body":"the peat bog, not the body,"},{"startTime":1934.67,"endTime":1938.57,"body":"the peat having seeped"},{"startTime":1938.57,"endTime":1939.71,"body":"into the body."},{"startTime":1939.71,"endTime":1944.03,"body":"So they then sent tissue"},{"startTime":1939.71,"endTime":1944.03,"body":"to two different labs,"},{"startTime":1944.03,"endTime":1946.16,"body":"and asked for their opinion,"},{"startTime":1946.16,"endTime":1951.16,"body":"and the very first one came"},{"startTime":1946.16,"endTime":1951.16,"body":"back saying, this is post-Roman,"},{"startTime":1951.38,"endTime":1953.63,"body":"it's from the early Middle Ages."},{"startTime":1953.63,"endTime":1956.664,"body":"And the second lab had said that"},{"startTime":1956.664,"endTime":1961.664,"body":"it's almost certainly Roman in its date."},{"startTime":1961.91,"endTime":1966.14,"body":"It could be possibly"},{"startTime":1961.91,"endTime":1966.14,"body":"Iron Age or it could be"},{"startTime":1966.14,"endTime":1969.95,"body":"possibly post-Roman, but probably Roman."},{"startTime":1969.95,"endTime":1974.95,"body":"And what the museum did"},{"startTime":1969.95,"endTime":1974.95,"body":"was to ask the second lab"},{"startTime":1974.96,"endTime":1977.93,"body":"for a final more detailed opinion."},{"startTime":1977.93,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"And the answer came back"},{"startTime":1977.93,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"that there was a 30% chance"},{"startTime":1982.64,"endTime":1986.391,"body":"that it was from the later"},{"startTime":1982.64,"endTime":1986.391,"body":"Roman period or even later,"},{"startTime":1986.391,"endTime":1991.391,"body":"and a two third chance that"},{"startTime":1986.391,"endTime":1991.391,"body":"it was dated from just before"},{"startTime":1992.15,"endTime":1996.5,"body":"the Romans arrived until"},{"startTime":1992.15,"endTime":1996.5,"body":"well into the Roman period."},{"startTime":1996.5,"endTime":1999.923,"body":"And at that point the museum"},{"startTime":1996.5,"endTime":1999.923,"body":"concluded it was Iron Age."},{"startTime":2001.015,"endTime":2001.848,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":2001.848,"endTime":2006.848,"body":"And this remained the conclusion"},{"startTime":2001.848,"endTime":2006.848,"body":"even when two more or bits"},{"startTime":2007.27,"endTime":2010.96,"body":"of two more bodies had been"},{"startTime":2007.27,"endTime":2010.96,"body":"identified in Lindow Moss,"},{"startTime":2010.96,"endTime":2014.393,"body":"one an earlier find and the other,"},{"startTime":2014.393,"endTime":2017.467,"body":"a later one with different bits of a body."},{"startTime":2017.467,"endTime":2021.04,"body":"And they were firmly"},{"startTime":2017.467,"endTime":2021.04,"body":"dated to the Roman period,"},{"startTime":2021.04,"endTime":2023.17,"body":"and a severed head was found"},{"startTime":2023.17,"endTime":2026.64,"body":"in another bog near"},{"startTime":2023.17,"endTime":2026.64,"body":"Manchester and firmly dated"},{"startTime":2026.64,"endTime":2028.66,"body":"to the Roman period."},{"startTime":2028.66,"endTime":2029.71,"body":"So what's the problem?"},{"startTime":2029.71,"endTime":2031.81,"body":"Well, the answer is in the Roman period,"},{"startTime":2031.81,"endTime":2033.73,"body":"there are no druids."},{"startTime":2033.73,"endTime":2036.13,"body":"The Romans had annihilated them."},{"startTime":2036.13,"endTime":2041.13,"body":"So it can't easily be a"},{"startTime":2036.13,"endTime":2041.13,"body":"druidic human sacrifice."},{"startTime":2041.71,"endTime":2044.35,"body":"It's probably Roman."},{"startTime":2044.35,"endTime":2048.1,"body":"It could be a human"},{"startTime":2044.35,"endTime":2048.1,"body":"sacrifice of some kind,"},{"startTime":2048.1,"endTime":2050.68,"body":"or it could be the execution of somebody"},{"startTime":2050.68,"endTime":2055.68,"body":"for a heinous crime, which he"},{"startTime":2050.68,"endTime":2055.68,"body":"may or may not have committed."},{"startTime":2056.08,"endTime":2060.16,"body":"And likewise the other bodies,"},{"startTime":2056.08,"endTime":2060.16,"body":"or there could have been"},{"startTime":2060.16,"endTime":2063.97,"body":"a criminal gang operating in"},{"startTime":2060.16,"endTime":2063.97,"body":"that bit of Roman Britain who"},{"startTime":2063.97,"endTime":2066.22,"body":"dumped their victims in the bogs"},{"startTime":2066.22,"endTime":2069.403,"body":"around where Manchester was to grow."},{"startTime":2071.02,"endTime":2075.97,"body":"So we seemed to have a range"},{"startTime":2071.02,"endTime":2075.97,"body":"of different explanations"},{"startTime":2075.97,"endTime":2079.21,"body":"of which the label on"},{"startTime":2075.97,"endTime":2079.21,"body":"the body was only one"},{"startTime":2079.21,"endTime":2081.34,"body":"and stretching the dating a bit."},{"startTime":2081.34,"endTime":2083.38,"body":"So I wanted to start a debate."},{"startTime":2083.38,"endTime":2087.49,"body":"And in 2004, I did so in the"},{"startTime":2083.38,"endTime":2087.49,"body":"Times literary supplement"},{"startTime":2087.49,"endTime":2092.11,"body":"by laying out that argument,"},{"startTime":2087.49,"endTime":2092.11,"body":"and I was answered swiftly"},{"startTime":2092.11,"endTime":2096.13,"body":"and courteously by a very"},{"startTime":2092.11,"endTime":2096.13,"body":"distinguished archeologist,"},{"startTime":2096.13,"endTime":2101.13,"body":"JD Hill, who was the curator"},{"startTime":2096.13,"endTime":2101.13,"body":"in charge of the gallery."},{"startTime":2103.27,"endTime":2105.85,"body":"And he upheld Ian West's reputation"},{"startTime":2105.85,"endTime":2110.05,"body":"as a superb pathologist, justifiably,"},{"startTime":2110.05,"endTime":2115.05,"body":"and he also said that it"},{"startTime":2110.05,"endTime":2115.05,"body":"probably is a Roman body,"},{"startTime":2115.45,"endTime":2118.957,"body":"but that doesn't rule out"},{"startTime":2115.45,"endTime":2118.957,"body":"the fact that human sacrifice"},{"startTime":2118.957,"endTime":2121.21,"body":"might still have been practiced"},{"startTime":2121.21,"endTime":2124.45,"body":"in secret in the Roman period."},{"startTime":2124.45,"endTime":2128.05,"body":"So I answered him saying"},{"startTime":2124.45,"endTime":2128.05,"body":"that when you have"},{"startTime":2128.05,"endTime":2130.729,"body":"two criminal pathologists who disagree"},{"startTime":2130.729,"endTime":2132.7,"body":"in a modern legal case,"},{"startTime":2132.7,"endTime":2136.21,"body":"you don't ignore one and"},{"startTime":2132.7,"endTime":2136.21,"body":"only listen to the other."},{"startTime":2136.21,"endTime":2138.73,"body":"And this is what had"},{"startTime":2136.21,"endTime":2138.73,"body":"happened in this case."},{"startTime":2138.73,"endTime":2143.62,"body":"And I also said that the whole"},{"startTime":2138.73,"endTime":2143.62,"body":"idea that human sacrifice had"},{"startTime":2143.62,"endTime":2147.67,"body":"been carried out in the"},{"startTime":2143.62,"endTime":2147.67,"body":"pre-Roman Iron Age of Britain had"},{"startTime":2147.67,"endTime":2150.94,"body":"hinged on Lindow Man"},{"startTime":2147.67,"endTime":2150.94,"body":"being a human sacrifice."},{"startTime":2150.94,"endTime":2153.751,"body":"So the argument's now going in circles."},{"startTime":2153.751,"endTime":2158.751,"body":"JD Hill, eventually in the"},{"startTime":2153.751,"endTime":2158.751,"body":"Times newspaper stated,"},{"startTime":2159.76,"endTime":2162.58,"body":"we may never know how Lindow Man died,"},{"startTime":2162.58,"endTime":2165.28,"body":"which was the argument I wanted conceded."},{"startTime":2165.28,"endTime":2167.74,"body":"And he did so there graciously,"},{"startTime":2167.74,"endTime":2171.49,"body":"but the label wasn't changed,"},{"startTime":2167.74,"endTime":2171.49,"body":"and it remained the same"},{"startTime":2171.49,"endTime":2176.49,"body":"for a few more years until in 2009,"},{"startTime":2176.53,"endTime":2179.95,"body":"the body was returned"},{"startTime":2176.53,"endTime":2179.95,"body":"to the Manchester Museum"},{"startTime":2179.95,"endTime":2182.74,"body":"where it had first been stored"},{"startTime":2182.74,"endTime":2186.28,"body":"and examined for a special exhibition."},{"startTime":2186.28,"endTime":2191.2,"body":"And the exhibition there"},{"startTime":2186.28,"endTime":2191.2,"body":"adopted the argument of,"},{"startTime":2191.2,"endTime":2193.36,"body":"could have been a human sacrifice,"},{"startTime":2193.36,"endTime":2196.99,"body":"could have been an executed"},{"startTime":2193.36,"endTime":2196.99,"body":"criminal, innocent or guilty,"},{"startTime":2196.99,"endTime":2200.2,"body":"could have been the victim of criminals."},{"startTime":2200.2,"endTime":2205.2,"body":"And JD Hill himself"},{"startTime":2200.2,"endTime":2205.2,"body":"nobly contributed a panel"},{"startTime":2205.755,"endTime":2209.26,"body":"to the exhibition which"},{"startTime":2205.755,"endTime":2209.26,"body":"endorsed this view."},{"startTime":2209.26,"endTime":2211.84,"body":"A conference was held to accompany it,"},{"startTime":2211.84,"endTime":2214.81,"body":"I was invited to give the keynote address"},{"startTime":2214.81,"endTime":2218.38,"body":"and of all the other"},{"startTime":2214.81,"endTime":2218.38,"body":"speakers, all but one held"},{"startTime":2218.38,"endTime":2223.38,"body":"to the open verdict line,"},{"startTime":2218.38,"endTime":2223.38,"body":"which had been advocated"},{"startTime":2224.23,"endTime":2226.66,"body":"in the original debate which I'd started."},{"startTime":2226.66,"endTime":2230.56,"body":"One of the speakers was a"},{"startTime":2226.66,"endTime":2230.56,"body":"young man called Jody Joy who"},{"startTime":2230.56,"endTime":2234.37,"body":"succeeded JD Hill as"},{"startTime":2230.56,"endTime":2234.37,"body":"curator of that gallery."},{"startTime":2234.37,"endTime":2237.64,"body":"And he wrote a pamphlet inviting visitors"},{"startTime":2237.64,"endTime":2240.43,"body":"to make up their own minds on the matter."},{"startTime":2240.43,"endTime":2242.32,"body":"And when the body was returned,"},{"startTime":2242.32,"endTime":2247.32,"body":"the museum put a new label"},{"startTime":2242.32,"endTime":2247.32,"body":"which opened up the matter"},{"startTime":2248.17,"endTime":2250.602,"body":"and made ritual killing only one"},{"startTime":2250.602,"endTime":2255.602,"body":"of the points that were there."},{"startTime":2260.83,"endTime":2265.83,"body":"There is all the information"},{"startTime":2260.83,"endTime":2265.83,"body":"that I have been describing."},{"startTime":2266.17,"endTime":2271.17,"body":"So it's time to conclude,"},{"startTime":2266.17,"endTime":2271.17,"body":"and it's pretty clear"},{"startTime":2273.04,"endTime":2274.513,"body":"what I'm going to be arguing."},{"startTime":2276.49,"endTime":2281.49,"body":"I'm going to be arguing"},{"startTime":2276.49,"endTime":2281.49,"body":"for an open verdict on most"},{"startTime":2281.59,"endTime":2284.65,"body":"of prehistoric British"},{"startTime":2281.59,"endTime":2284.65,"body":"religion in which those"},{"startTime":2284.65,"endTime":2289.12,"body":"who take the benevolent view,"},{"startTime":2284.65,"endTime":2289.12,"body":"those who take the pessimistic"},{"startTime":2289.12,"endTime":2293.26,"body":"and disapproving view"},{"startTime":2289.12,"endTime":2293.26,"body":"can have equal honors,"},{"startTime":2293.26,"endTime":2297.07,"body":"and everybody has an equal"},{"startTime":2293.26,"endTime":2297.07,"body":"chance of being right,"},{"startTime":2297.07,"endTime":2299.92,"body":"because that's actually time and again"},{"startTime":2299.92,"endTime":2302.71,"body":"what the evidence suggests."},{"startTime":2302.71,"endTime":2306.01,"body":"And so we end up with a multiplicity"},{"startTime":2306.01,"endTime":2309.64,"body":"of possible interpretations."},{"startTime":2309.64,"endTime":2314.26,"body":"We don't have the story"},{"startTime":2309.64,"endTime":2314.26,"body":"of prehistoric England,"},{"startTime":2314.26,"endTime":2316.72,"body":"early historic England or Britain."},{"startTime":2316.72,"endTime":2320.47,"body":"We have the stories and everybody has"},{"startTime":2320.47,"endTime":2324.13,"body":"the right to propose one of their own."},{"startTime":2324.13,"endTime":2328.03,"body":"And to my mind, this fits a multi-ethnic,"},{"startTime":2328.03,"endTime":2332.62,"body":"multi-faith society of individual choice"},{"startTime":2332.62,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"of the sort into which"},{"startTime":2332.62,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"we are rapidly turning"},{"startTime":2335.62,"endTime":2336.733,"body":"in this nation."},{"startTime":2339.34,"endTime":2341.86,"body":"Does not mean I'm talking myself"},{"startTime":2341.86,"endTime":2345.13,"body":"at other professionals out of a job."},{"startTime":2345.13,"endTime":2350.13,"body":"Heritage managers still have"},{"startTime":2345.13,"endTime":2350.13,"body":"an important role to protect"},{"startTime":2350.725,"endTime":2355.3,"body":"and display sites, to"},{"startTime":2350.725,"endTime":2355.3,"body":"lay out the evidence,"},{"startTime":2355.3,"endTime":2359.46,"body":"to invite people to make"},{"startTime":2355.3,"endTime":2359.46,"body":"their informed choices"},{"startTime":2359.46,"endTime":2363.22,"body":"on the evidence provided in front of them."},{"startTime":2363.22,"endTime":2364.57,"body":"And there's a similar role"},{"startTime":2364.57,"endTime":2368.56,"body":"for professional historians"},{"startTime":2364.57,"endTime":2368.56,"body":"and archeologists."},{"startTime":2368.56,"endTime":2373.56,"body":"We are the national experts in"},{"startTime":2368.56,"endTime":2373.56,"body":"identifying and dating finds,"},{"startTime":2374.17,"endTime":2379.17,"body":"explaining what sites probably"},{"startTime":2374.17,"endTime":2379.17,"body":"were, reading and translating"},{"startTime":2379.66,"endTime":2383.68,"body":"documents, and then laying"},{"startTime":2379.66,"endTime":2383.68,"body":"all this before the public."},{"startTime":2383.68,"endTime":2388.42,"body":"It's invaluable work and"},{"startTime":2383.68,"endTime":2388.42,"body":"will always be necessary."},{"startTime":2388.42,"endTime":2391.57,"body":"But in terms of pre-Christian religion,"},{"startTime":2391.57,"endTime":2396.04,"body":"the experts should then stand"},{"startTime":2391.57,"endTime":2396.04,"body":"back and let the public dream"},{"startTime":2396.04,"endTime":2400.271,"body":"their own dreams, make their own uses,"},{"startTime":2400.271,"endTime":2405.271,"body":"draw their own conclusions and"},{"startTime":2400.271,"endTime":2405.271,"body":"tell their own stories within"},{"startTime":2405.7,"endTime":2408.76,"body":"the limits which are quite capacious"},{"startTime":2408.76,"endTime":2411.253,"body":"of the evidence provided."},{"startTime":2412.48,"endTime":2414.79,"body":"This doesn't mean we're"},{"startTime":2412.48,"endTime":2414.79,"body":"not making advances"},{"startTime":2414.79,"endTime":2419.02,"body":"in the understanding of prehistoric"},{"startTime":2414.79,"endTime":2419.02,"body":"Britain, science enables"},{"startTime":2419.02,"endTime":2422.451,"body":"us increasingly to understand"},{"startTime":2419.02,"endTime":2422.451,"body":"the diet, the health,"},{"startTime":2422.451,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"the ethnicity, the"},{"startTime":2422.451,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"technology, the environment,"},{"startTime":2427.03,"endTime":2431.41,"body":"and the living circumstances"},{"startTime":2427.03,"endTime":2431.41,"body":"of prehistoric people."},{"startTime":2431.41,"endTime":2434.5,"body":"But we still can't get inside their minds."},{"startTime":2434.5,"endTime":2438.22,"body":"We have no idea of their"},{"startTime":2434.5,"endTime":2438.22,"body":"political structures,"},{"startTime":2438.22,"endTime":2442.27,"body":"their gender relations, their societies,"},{"startTime":2442.27,"endTime":2445.0,"body":"and most of all their religions."},{"startTime":2445.0,"endTime":2449.86,"body":"Absolutely nothing to tell us"},{"startTime":2445.0,"endTime":2449.86,"body":"because the evidence can be"},{"startTime":2449.86,"endTime":2454.86,"body":"interpreted as suggested"},{"startTime":2449.86,"endTime":2454.86,"body":"legitimately in so many ways."},{"startTime":2456.008,"endTime":2458.32,"body":"There's a lot of talk in education,"},{"startTime":2458.32,"endTime":2462.28,"body":"the last 30 years of"},{"startTime":2458.32,"endTime":2462.28,"body":"pupil-centered learning,"},{"startTime":2462.28,"endTime":2463.96,"body":"which I endorse."},{"startTime":2463.96,"endTime":2467.77,"body":"It seems we need"},{"startTime":2463.96,"endTime":2467.77,"body":"public-centered appreciation"},{"startTime":2467.77,"endTime":2471.279,"body":"where prehistoric and early"},{"startTime":2467.77,"endTime":2471.279,"body":"historic British religion"},{"startTime":2471.279,"endTime":2473.41,"body":"is concerned."},{"startTime":2473.41,"endTime":2477.04,"body":"And this I suggest,"},{"startTime":2473.41,"endTime":2477.04,"body":"fits the kind of society"},{"startTime":2477.04,"endTime":2479.89,"body":"into which we're evolving, as I've said,"},{"startTime":2479.89,"endTime":2484.213,"body":"and seems to me, logical,"},{"startTime":2479.89,"endTime":2484.213,"body":"natural, and simple."},{"startTime":2485.89,"endTime":2489.31,"body":"In fact, it isn't easy at all"},{"startTime":2489.31,"endTime":2494.31,"body":"because it runs counter"},{"startTime":2489.31,"endTime":2494.31,"body":"to a number of powerful"},{"startTime":2494.92,"endTime":2498.373,"body":"and persisting trends in national culture."},{"startTime":2499.39,"endTime":2504.39,"body":"One is the idea that experts"},{"startTime":2499.39,"endTime":2504.39,"body":"are paid to produce results."},{"startTime":2505.011,"endTime":2508.03,"body":"And indeed in the sciences they often do,"},{"startTime":2508.03,"endTime":2511.15,"body":"making great strides to"},{"startTime":2508.03,"endTime":2511.15,"body":"improve human knowledge,"},{"startTime":2511.15,"endTime":2515.56,"body":"human happiness, human"},{"startTime":2511.15,"endTime":2515.56,"body":"health, human welfare."},{"startTime":2515.56,"endTime":2519.46,"body":"And as suggested in"},{"startTime":2515.56,"endTime":2519.46,"body":"physical circumstances,"},{"startTime":2519.46,"endTime":2523.57,"body":"we do continually know"},{"startTime":2519.46,"endTime":2523.57,"body":"more about prehistory,"},{"startTime":2523.57,"endTime":2528.34,"body":"but not about the mental"},{"startTime":2523.57,"endTime":2528.34,"body":"world of prehistory."},{"startTime":2528.34,"endTime":2533.34,"body":"And if governments pay"},{"startTime":2528.34,"endTime":2533.34,"body":"academics or subsidize"},{"startTime":2534.73,"endTime":2539.73,"body":"academics to produce"},{"startTime":2534.73,"endTime":2539.73,"body":"answers about these areas,"},{"startTime":2540.217,"endTime":2542.83,"body":"and the academics turn"},{"startTime":2540.217,"endTime":2542.83,"body":"to them with a smile"},{"startTime":2542.83,"endTime":2547.3,"body":"and say, don't ask us, we"},{"startTime":2542.83,"endTime":2547.3,"body":"haven't actually made an advance"},{"startTime":2547.3,"endTime":2549.61,"body":"in this area in a hundred years,"},{"startTime":2549.61,"endTime":2554.02,"body":"then the pay masters of the"},{"startTime":2549.61,"endTime":2554.02,"body":"system and the pay mistresses"},{"startTime":2554.02,"endTime":2557.35,"body":"are likely to be rather discontented."},{"startTime":2557.35,"endTime":2561.31,"body":"And also we are still"},{"startTime":2557.35,"endTime":2561.31,"body":"quite justly caught up"},{"startTime":2561.31,"endTime":2563.35,"body":"in a rhetoric of progress."},{"startTime":2563.35,"endTime":2566.62,"body":"The idea that ideally each"},{"startTime":2563.35,"endTime":2566.62,"body":"generation should know"},{"startTime":2566.62,"endTime":2569.89,"body":"more than the last, have a"},{"startTime":2566.62,"endTime":2569.89,"body":"better standard of living"},{"startTime":2569.89,"endTime":2574.0,"body":"than the last, and a better"},{"startTime":2569.89,"endTime":2574.0,"body":"world to which to look forward."},{"startTime":2574.0,"endTime":2579.0,"body":"And again, progress is made"},{"startTime":2574.0,"endTime":2579.0,"body":"in knowledge in most fields,"},{"startTime":2579.25,"endTime":2580.54,"body":"but not in this one."},{"startTime":2580.54,"endTime":2584.98,"body":"And so if I suggest all we"},{"startTime":2580.54,"endTime":2584.98,"body":"produce is more evidence,"},{"startTime":2584.98,"endTime":2589.98,"body":"exciting, compelling,"},{"startTime":2584.98,"endTime":2589.98,"body":"colorful though that may be,"},{"startTime":2590.02,"endTime":2592.84,"body":"then a great many people other than those"},{"startTime":2592.84,"endTime":2596.62,"body":"who hold the purse strings"},{"startTime":2592.84,"endTime":2596.62,"body":"and the political power are"},{"startTime":2596.62,"endTime":2598.393,"body":"going to be rather upset."},{"startTime":2599.26,"endTime":2603.61,"body":"And furthermore, I have"},{"startTime":2599.26,"endTime":2603.61,"body":"extolled a multiethnic,"},{"startTime":2603.61,"endTime":2608.59,"body":"multi-faith complex society"},{"startTime":2603.61,"endTime":2608.59,"body":"based on individuals."},{"startTime":2608.59,"endTime":2611.14,"body":"Not everybody in Britain is happy"},{"startTime":2611.14,"endTime":2613.33,"body":"with the appearance of such a thing."},{"startTime":2613.33,"endTime":2617.743,"body":"And even those who are"},{"startTime":2613.33,"endTime":2617.743,"body":"are often inclined to say"},{"startTime":2617.743,"endTime":2620.05,"body":"that we need desperately something"},{"startTime":2620.05,"endTime":2623.47,"body":"to bond the faiths, the ethnicities,"},{"startTime":2623.47,"endTime":2628.15,"body":"the cultures together, and"},{"startTime":2623.47,"endTime":2628.15,"body":"a common story of Britain"},{"startTime":2628.15,"endTime":2631.9,"body":"which everybody can be"},{"startTime":2628.15,"endTime":2631.9,"body":"taught and which is certain"},{"startTime":2631.9,"endTime":2636.88,"body":"and positive and embedded"},{"startTime":2631.9,"endTime":2636.88,"body":"in scholarship is"},{"startTime":2636.88,"endTime":2639.64,"body":"one of the ways of doing this in order"},{"startTime":2639.64,"endTime":2641.77,"body":"to make people understand what it is"},{"startTime":2641.77,"endTime":2644.17,"body":"to be British or English,"},{"startTime":2644.17,"endTime":2649.09,"body":"Scottish, or Welsh, and"},{"startTime":2644.17,"endTime":2649.09,"body":"part of a community."},{"startTime":2649.09,"endTime":2654.09,"body":"If you remove this some very"},{"startTime":2649.09,"endTime":2654.09,"body":"distinguished people have"},{"startTime":2654.46,"endTime":2658.15,"body":"argued, then you are"},{"startTime":2654.46,"endTime":2658.15,"body":"removing the last balm,"},{"startTime":2658.15,"endTime":2660.88,"body":"the last cement from our society,"},{"startTime":2660.88,"endTime":2665.14,"body":"which may well fragment"},{"startTime":2660.88,"endTime":2665.14,"body":"completely as a result."},{"startTime":2665.14,"endTime":2670.14,"body":"And finally, this pluralism"},{"startTime":2665.14,"endTime":2670.14,"body":"I'm suggesting doesn't fit"},{"startTime":2670.87,"endTime":2673.45,"body":"any traditional mode of storytelling."},{"startTime":2673.45,"endTime":2678.45,"body":"You want to get a contract for"},{"startTime":2673.45,"endTime":2678.45,"body":"a TV documentary on archeology"},{"startTime":2679.93,"endTime":2682.72,"body":"or history, especially archeology,"},{"startTime":2682.72,"endTime":2684.49,"body":"one of the best ways of doing it is"},{"startTime":2684.49,"endTime":2687.04,"body":"to present it as a quest romance."},{"startTime":2687.04,"endTime":2690.19,"body":"Now the quest romance"},{"startTime":2687.04,"endTime":2690.19,"body":"is the oldest known form"},{"startTime":2690.19,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"of human literature, the"},{"startTime":2690.19,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"oldest surviving in the world."},{"startTime":2693.7,"endTime":2697.27,"body":"The Epic of Gilgamesh is"},{"startTime":2693.7,"endTime":2697.27,"body":"about a man on a quest,"},{"startTime":2697.27,"endTime":2699.168,"body":"the oldest European literature,"},{"startTime":2699.168,"endTime":2704.168,"body":"the Odyssey of Homer is about"},{"startTime":2699.168,"endTime":2704.168,"body":"a man on a quest to get home."},{"startTime":2704.95,"endTime":2708.25,"body":"The quest romance is one"},{"startTime":2704.95,"endTime":2708.25,"body":"of the most thrilling"},{"startTime":2708.25,"endTime":2712.27,"body":"and compelling modes of"},{"startTime":2708.25,"endTime":2712.27,"body":"storytelling we possess."},{"startTime":2712.27,"endTime":2715.48,"body":"The golden fleece, the holy grail,"},{"startTime":2715.48,"endTime":2718.644,"body":"getting that darn ring into Mount Doom."},{"startTime":2718.644,"endTime":2719.477,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":2719.477,"endTime":2722.68,"body":"These are the basis of epic."},{"startTime":2722.68,"endTime":2726.97,"body":"And so if you go to a"},{"startTime":2722.68,"endTime":2726.97,"body":"commissioning editor and say,"},{"startTime":2726.97,"endTime":2730.63,"body":"I've had this great idea to"},{"startTime":2726.97,"endTime":2730.63,"body":"explain a puzzle which has"},{"startTime":2730.63,"endTime":2734.29,"body":"thwarted historians or"},{"startTime":2730.63,"endTime":2734.29,"body":"archeologists for centuries,"},{"startTime":2734.29,"endTime":2737.14,"body":"and now I've got the"},{"startTime":2734.29,"endTime":2737.14,"body":"answer and we'll lay out"},{"startTime":2737.14,"endTime":2738.37,"body":"the problem for the public,"},{"startTime":2738.37,"endTime":2740.83,"body":"we'll take them on the"},{"startTime":2738.37,"endTime":2740.83,"body":"journey and at the end,"},{"startTime":2740.83,"endTime":2745.12,"body":"we'll have the revelation,"},{"startTime":2740.83,"endTime":2745.12,"body":"that is brilliant TV."},{"startTime":2745.12,"endTime":2749.35,"body":"No matter how long it lasts,"},{"startTime":2745.12,"endTime":2749.35,"body":"it will get the commission."},{"startTime":2749.35,"endTime":2751.27,"body":"You go to a commissioning editor and say,"},{"startTime":2751.27,"endTime":2754.29,"body":"we have all this wonderful data,"},{"startTime":2751.27,"endTime":2754.29,"body":"and we're going to show it all"},{"startTime":2754.29,"endTime":2755.62,"body":"to the public and we ain't got"},{"startTime":2755.62,"endTime":2758.38,"body":"the foggiest idea really what it means."},{"startTime":2758.38,"endTime":2760.9,"body":"They're going to have to"},{"startTime":2758.38,"endTime":2760.9,"body":"make up their own minds"},{"startTime":2760.9,"endTime":2764.556,"body":"to put it mildly, it's"},{"startTime":2760.9,"endTime":2764.556,"body":"going to be uphill work."},{"startTime":2764.556,"endTime":2765.79,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":2765.79,"endTime":2769.75,"body":"So I acknowledge the problem, nonetheless,"},{"startTime":2769.75,"endTime":2774.75,"body":"tough as the gradient is,"},{"startTime":2769.75,"endTime":2774.75,"body":"I prefer the pluralist idea"},{"startTime":2775.57,"endTime":2778.87,"body":"of presenting the evidence,"},{"startTime":2775.57,"endTime":2778.87,"body":"and then encouraging people"},{"startTime":2778.87,"endTime":2780.97,"body":"to see different things in it."},{"startTime":2780.97,"endTime":2784.75,"body":"Not just because it fits"},{"startTime":2780.97,"endTime":2784.75,"body":"pluralism and individualism,"},{"startTime":2784.75,"endTime":2788.47,"body":"but also because I think"},{"startTime":2784.75,"endTime":2788.47,"body":"it's the actual honest way"},{"startTime":2788.47,"endTime":2789.88,"body":"of dealing with the data which"},{"startTime":2789.88,"endTime":2793.15,"body":"we can't interpret positively."},{"startTime":2793.15,"endTime":2797.65,"body":"And there I rest my case,"},{"startTime":2793.15,"endTime":2797.65,"body":"but of course in doing so,"},{"startTime":2797.65,"endTime":2801.49,"body":"believing in polyvocality and pluralism,"},{"startTime":2801.49,"endTime":2803.83,"body":"if you happen to disagree with everything"},{"startTime":2803.83,"endTime":2805.9,"body":"I've just said this evening,"},{"startTime":2805.9,"endTime":2809.74,"body":"then I thoroughly"},{"startTime":2805.9,"endTime":2809.74,"body":"endorse, indeed celebrate,"},{"startTime":2809.74,"endTime":2811.462,"body":"your right to do so."},{"startTime":2811.462,"endTime":2813.781,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":2813.781,"endTime":2815.797,"body":"(audience applauding)"},{"startTime":2815.797,"endTime":2818.86,"body":"- Now I have some great questions,"},{"startTime":2818.86,"endTime":2821.32,"body":"and I'm going to take the first one"},{"startTime":2821.32,"endTime":2826.32,"body":"from our online audience, and"},{"startTime":2821.32,"endTime":2826.32,"body":"the first one is from Hannah."},{"startTime":2827.2,"endTime":2830.71,"body":"Now she asks, now many people speak"},{"startTime":2830.71,"endTime":2833.92,"body":"of the special spiritual feeling"},{"startTime":2833.92,"endTime":2837.25,"body":"that they get when visiting Stonehenge."},{"startTime":2837.25,"endTime":2841.45,"body":"Do you think this is hysteria"},{"startTime":2837.25,"endTime":2841.45,"body":"or have you ever felt"},{"startTime":2841.45,"endTime":2846.13,"body":"that very special feeling"},{"startTime":2841.45,"endTime":2846.13,"body":"that others talk about?"},{"startTime":2846.13,"endTime":2847.63,"body":"- I'm an expert so the answer is"},{"startTime":2847.63,"endTime":2849.435,"body":"I haven't got the faintest idea."},{"startTime":2849.435,"endTime":2850.66,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":2850.66,"endTime":2853.84,"body":"But it's undoubtedly true"},{"startTime":2850.66,"endTime":2853.84,"body":"that these places have"},{"startTime":2853.84,"endTime":2855.67,"body":"a capacity to move."},{"startTime":2855.67,"endTime":2857.95,"body":"And it's certainly not hysteria because"},{"startTime":2857.95,"endTime":2861.13,"body":"they're luminous places,"},{"startTime":2857.95,"endTime":2861.13,"body":"they're places built"},{"startTime":2861.13,"endTime":2862.84,"body":"to be very special."},{"startTime":2862.84,"endTime":2865.761,"body":"They're places in which humans"},{"startTime":2862.84,"endTime":2865.761,"body":"have invested a huge amount"},{"startTime":2865.761,"endTime":2869.74,"body":"of emotion and experience, stretching back"},{"startTime":2869.74,"endTime":2872.14,"body":"in some cases many millennia."},{"startTime":2872.14,"endTime":2874.72,"body":"So they darn well should move us."},{"startTime":2874.72,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"I think people have"},{"startTime":2874.72,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"very polarized reactions"},{"startTime":2878.65,"endTime":2881.539,"body":"to Stonehenge in particular."},{"startTime":2881.539,"endTime":2885.37,"body":"Many see it as a place"},{"startTime":2881.539,"endTime":2885.37,"body":"of extreme sanctity,"},{"startTime":2885.37,"endTime":2889.72,"body":"a people's temple, which is not hedged in"},{"startTime":2889.72,"endTime":2893.713,"body":"by a dominant priesthood or"},{"startTime":2889.72,"endTime":2893.713,"body":"priestesshood and religion."},{"startTime":2894.85,"endTime":2897.01,"body":"On the other hand, many feel instinctually"},{"startTime":2897.01,"endTime":2900.25,"body":"it's a place of conflict and division"},{"startTime":2900.25,"endTime":2905.25,"body":"and trauma, and each as"},{"startTime":2900.25,"endTime":2905.25,"body":"suggested have a right to that."},{"startTime":2905.74,"endTime":2909.61,"body":"I find Stonehenge an"},{"startTime":2905.74,"endTime":2909.61,"body":"incredible pain personally just"},{"startTime":2909.61,"endTime":2913.42,"body":"because it gets involved"},{"startTime":2909.61,"endTime":2913.42,"body":"in so many controversies."},{"startTime":2913.42,"endTime":2916.3,"body":"I was one of the trustees"},{"startTime":2913.42,"endTime":2916.3,"body":"for English Heritage"},{"startTime":2916.3,"endTime":2919.327,"body":"for many years, a"},{"startTime":2916.3,"endTime":2919.327,"body":"commissioner before that."},{"startTime":2919.327,"endTime":2923.59,"body":"And Stonehenge gave us more"},{"startTime":2919.327,"endTime":2923.59,"body":"controversy and more difficulty"},{"startTime":2923.59,"endTime":2926.44,"body":"than all the other 420 sites"},{"startTime":2926.44,"endTime":2928.78,"body":"in English Heritage's"},{"startTime":2926.44,"endTime":2928.78,"body":"custody put together."},{"startTime":2928.78,"endTime":2933.78,"body":"But that is a mark of its"},{"startTime":2928.78,"endTime":2933.78,"body":"emotive power and its importance."},{"startTime":2935.53,"endTime":2936.363,"body":"- [Audience Member] Would you apply"},{"startTime":2936.363,"endTime":2940.87,"body":"your skepticism about human"},{"startTime":2936.363,"endTime":2940.87,"body":"sacrifice more generally"},{"startTime":2940.87,"endTime":2945.87,"body":"to Carthaginian and other areas of Europe?"},{"startTime":2947.83,"endTime":2949.9,"body":"- Selectively."},{"startTime":2949.9,"endTime":2954.49,"body":"I'm skeptical about it in"},{"startTime":2949.9,"endTime":2954.49,"body":"Northern and Central Europe"},{"startTime":2954.49,"endTime":2957.7,"body":"because the evidence is"},{"startTime":2954.49,"endTime":2957.7,"body":"not conclusive enough."},{"startTime":2957.7,"endTime":2961.96,"body":"I'm skeptical about it in the"},{"startTime":2957.7,"endTime":2961.96,"body":"Near East for the same reason,"},{"startTime":2961.96,"endTime":2965.83,"body":"Carthaginian does seem different"},{"startTime":2961.96,"endTime":2965.83,"body":"because there we actually"},{"startTime":2965.83,"endTime":2970.83,"body":"do seem to have textual evidence"},{"startTime":2965.83,"endTime":2970.83,"body":"of elite people purchasing"},{"startTime":2971.98,"endTime":2975.43,"body":"poor children as offerings to the deities."},{"startTime":2975.43,"endTime":2977.5,"body":"They're specifically children,"},{"startTime":2977.5,"endTime":2980.257,"body":"they're specifically in hard times."},{"startTime":2980.257,"endTime":2984.82,"body":"And that does seem to be a"},{"startTime":2980.257,"endTime":2984.82,"body":"strongly marked local tradition."},{"startTime":2984.82,"endTime":2988.0,"body":"And indeed in the rest of"},{"startTime":2984.82,"endTime":2988.0,"body":"the world there are peoples"},{"startTime":2988.0,"endTime":2991.75,"body":"in historic times, not very many,"},{"startTime":2991.75,"endTime":2994.81,"body":"but nonetheless present of"},{"startTime":2991.75,"endTime":2994.81,"body":"whom we have good evidence"},{"startTime":2994.81,"endTime":2999.81,"body":"for human sacrifice, Mesoamerica"},{"startTime":2994.81,"endTime":2999.81,"body":"and Polynesia examples."},{"startTime":3000.3,"endTime":3001.77,"body":"So it does happen."},{"startTime":3001.77,"endTime":3004.59,"body":"I'm just reluctant along"},{"startTime":3001.77,"endTime":3004.59,"body":"with other scholars"},{"startTime":3004.59,"endTime":3008.28,"body":"at the present day to apply it wholesale"},{"startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3012.09,"body":"to a range of peoples"},{"startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3012.09,"body":"where the evidence is"},{"startTime":3012.09,"endTime":3015.84,"body":"not quite good enough"},{"startTime":3012.09,"endTime":3015.84,"body":"at present to enable us"},{"startTime":3015.84,"endTime":3017.793,"body":"to conclude that it certainly occurred."},{"startTime":3018.681,"endTime":3019.687,"body":"- [Audience Member 2] Yes, thank you."},{"startTime":3019.687,"endTime":3021.69,"body":"I did just wonder whether you don't think"},{"startTime":3021.69,"endTime":3025.32,"body":"that scientific advances in"},{"startTime":3021.69,"endTime":3025.32,"body":"many different disciplines"},{"startTime":3025.32,"endTime":3028.02,"body":"and also the insights from anthropology"},{"startTime":3028.02,"endTime":3030.63,"body":"and so forth, looking"},{"startTime":3028.02,"endTime":3030.63,"body":"at societies who live"},{"startTime":3030.63,"endTime":3034.86,"body":"in similar environments today"},{"startTime":3030.63,"endTime":3034.86,"body":"or in the recent past will not"},{"startTime":3034.86,"endTime":3038.91,"body":"actually advance knowledge"},{"startTime":3034.86,"endTime":3038.91,"body":"and get us closer to the truth"},{"startTime":3038.91,"endTime":3041.01,"body":"about the mentalities of these people."},{"startTime":3041.01,"endTime":3043.35,"body":"Or do you think that's a lost cause?"},{"startTime":3043.35,"endTime":3046.56,"body":"- I think that what you've very ably"},{"startTime":3046.56,"endTime":3049.89,"body":"and correctly described are ways"},{"startTime":3049.89,"endTime":3052.8,"body":"that increase the options which we have."},{"startTime":3052.8,"endTime":3056.51,"body":"And I think the perceptions"},{"startTime":3052.8,"endTime":3056.51,"body":"which generations bring"},{"startTime":3056.51,"endTime":3059.804,"body":"to this question do vary from generation"},{"startTime":3059.804,"endTime":3064.77,"body":"to generation in turn"},{"startTime":3059.804,"endTime":3064.77,"body":"as our own environments"},{"startTime":3064.77,"endTime":3067.43,"body":"and preoccupations and views of humanity"},{"startTime":3067.43,"endTime":3069.75,"body":"in the world change."},{"startTime":3069.75,"endTime":3074.07,"body":"And I think that it's perfectly"},{"startTime":3069.75,"endTime":3074.07,"body":"legitimate to look at people"},{"startTime":3074.07,"endTime":3078.684,"body":"with New Stone Age economies"},{"startTime":3074.07,"endTime":3078.684,"body":"and technologies in places like"},{"startTime":3078.684,"endTime":3083.684,"body":"Papua New Guinea, and say this"},{"startTime":3078.684,"endTime":3083.684,"body":"is an example of how people"},{"startTime":3083.943,"endTime":3088.47,"body":"with that kind of lifestyle"},{"startTime":3083.943,"endTime":3088.47,"body":"could view the cosmos."},{"startTime":3088.47,"endTime":3093.47,"body":"And equally so to look at"},{"startTime":3088.47,"endTime":3093.47,"body":"megalith builders in Madagascar"},{"startTime":3093.6,"endTime":3097.02,"body":"and say, this is one way"},{"startTime":3093.6,"endTime":3097.02,"body":"in which people who work"},{"startTime":3097.02,"endTime":3100.047,"body":"with great undressed"},{"startTime":3097.02,"endTime":3100.047,"body":"stones can position them"},{"startTime":3100.047,"endTime":3103.2,"body":"in regard to society and the world,"},{"startTime":3103.2,"endTime":3106.83,"body":"but there is no way that we can prove"},{"startTime":3106.83,"endTime":3109.95,"body":"that the prehistoric"},{"startTime":3106.83,"endTime":3109.95,"body":"British actually did have"},{"startTime":3109.95,"endTime":3113.97,"body":"the same belief systems"},{"startTime":3109.95,"endTime":3113.97,"body":"as Papuans or Malagasy."},{"startTime":3113.97,"endTime":3118.97,"body":"So what we are provided"},{"startTime":3113.97,"endTime":3118.97,"body":"with very usefully is"},{"startTime":3119.07,"endTime":3122.46,"body":"an increasing range of"},{"startTime":3119.07,"endTime":3122.46,"body":"possible alternatives."},{"startTime":3122.46,"endTime":3125.94,"body":"And of course the more"},{"startTime":3122.46,"endTime":3125.94,"body":"possible alternatives we have,"},{"startTime":3125.94,"endTime":3129.84,"body":"the greater the statistical"},{"startTime":3125.94,"endTime":3129.84,"body":"chance that one or more will be"},{"startTime":3129.84,"endTime":3132.873,"body":"right, even if we might not tell, which."},{"startTime":3134.43,"endTime":3136.62,"body":"- Now there's a short and sweet question"},{"startTime":3136.62,"endTime":3139.511,"body":"from a member of the audience online,"},{"startTime":3139.511,"endTime":3143.283,"body":"are experts sure Lindow was a man."},{"startTime":3145.8,"endTime":3146.771,"body":"- Sorry?"},{"startTime":3146.771,"endTime":3148.353,"body":"(presenter laughing)"},{"startTime":3148.353,"endTime":3151.92,"body":"- Are experts sure that Lindow was a man."},{"startTime":3151.92,"endTime":3153.435,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":3151.92,"endTime":3153.435,"body":"(presenter laughing)"},{"startTime":3153.435,"endTime":3158.435,"body":"His skeletal makeup is male,"},{"startTime":3153.435,"endTime":3158.435,"body":"that's clearly identified."},{"startTime":3162.24,"endTime":3165.33,"body":"So it's a guy, but one of the other bodies"},{"startTime":3165.33,"endTime":3170.33,"body":"in the same bog is probably female"},{"startTime":3170.46,"endTime":3175.46,"body":"because her skull was found in the bog"},{"startTime":3175.74,"endTime":3177.99,"body":"a couple of decades before."},{"startTime":3177.99,"endTime":3182.52,"body":"And in an appalling dark comedy,"},{"startTime":3182.52,"endTime":3185.94,"body":"a local man confessed to"},{"startTime":3182.52,"endTime":3185.94,"body":"having murdered his wife"},{"startTime":3185.94,"endTime":3188.88,"body":"and dumped her in the"},{"startTime":3185.94,"endTime":3188.88,"body":"bog because he assumed"},{"startTime":3188.88,"endTime":3192.38,"body":"that the 2000 dear old head was hers,"},{"startTime":3192.38,"endTime":3193.29,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":3193.29,"endTime":3198.03,"body":"and he's now doing life as a result."},{"startTime":3198.03,"endTime":3202.508,"body":"So there are both sexes"},{"startTime":3198.03,"endTime":3202.508,"body":"represented in the bog."},{"startTime":3202.508,"endTime":3203.341,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":3202.508,"endTime":3203.341,"body":"- We just thought"},{"startTime":3203.341,"endTime":3204.873,"body":"we would check"},{"startTime":3203.341,"endTime":3204.873,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3206.353,"endTime":3207.898,"body":"Worth doing."},{"startTime":3207.898,"endTime":3209.7,"body":"- [Audience Member 3]"},{"startTime":3207.898,"endTime":3209.7,"body":"How would you compare"},{"startTime":3209.7,"endTime":3212.49,"body":"Stonehenge with Seahenge."},{"startTime":3212.49,"endTime":3213.39,"body":"- Okay."},{"startTime":3212.49,"endTime":3213.39,"body":"- At all?"},{"startTime":3214.53,"endTime":3217.68,"body":"- They are both cause célèbre,"},{"startTime":3217.68,"endTime":3221.58,"body":"but Stonehenge is the most"},{"startTime":3217.68,"endTime":3221.58,"body":"famous prehistoric monument"},{"startTime":3221.58,"endTime":3222.57,"body":"in the world."},{"startTime":3222.57,"endTime":3227.57,"body":"And Seahenge is a completely"},{"startTime":3222.57,"endTime":3227.57,"body":"routine Bronze Age"},{"startTime":3228.6,"endTime":3232.59,"body":"timber circle from the end"},{"startTime":3228.6,"endTime":3232.59,"body":"of the third millennium,"},{"startTime":3232.59,"endTime":3236.202,"body":"the millennium BC which"},{"startTime":3232.59,"endTime":3236.202,"body":"Stonehenge was built,"},{"startTime":3236.202,"endTime":3238.83,"body":"which happened to hit the headlines"},{"startTime":3238.83,"endTime":3243.63,"body":"because rather like a mammoth"},{"startTime":3238.83,"endTime":3243.63,"body":"eroding out the Siberian ice,"},{"startTime":3243.63,"endTime":3247.23,"body":"it eroded out of the mud"},{"startTime":3243.63,"endTime":3247.23,"body":"of the northern coast"},{"startTime":3247.23,"endTime":3249.24,"body":"and was very well preserved."},{"startTime":3249.24,"endTime":3251.49,"body":"Most of these circles are only represented"},{"startTime":3251.49,"endTime":3254.1,"body":"by their post holes"},{"startTime":3251.49,"endTime":3254.1,"body":"and the timber in them."},{"startTime":3254.1,"endTime":3259.1,"body":"But this one was intact and"},{"startTime":3254.1,"endTime":3259.1,"body":"had it just been excavated"},{"startTime":3259.29,"endTime":3262.89,"body":"and removed to Kingsland Museum,"},{"startTime":3259.29,"endTime":3262.89,"body":"there had been no problem."},{"startTime":3262.89,"endTime":3266.55,"body":"But it's in a bird sanctuary"},{"startTime":3262.89,"endTime":3266.55,"body":"in breeding season."},{"startTime":3266.55,"endTime":3269.79,"body":"And so everything had to"},{"startTime":3266.55,"endTime":3269.79,"body":"be postponed for months,"},{"startTime":3269.79,"endTime":3274.79,"body":"and the media storm was"},{"startTime":3269.79,"endTime":3274.79,"body":"created, a neon lit term,"},{"startTime":3274.95,"endTime":3279.12,"body":"Seahenge was invented by"},{"startTime":3274.95,"endTime":3279.12,"body":"journalists for the site"},{"startTime":3279.12,"endTime":3284.12,"body":"and a few Rory erupted between"},{"startTime":3279.12,"endTime":3284.12,"body":"local people, archeologists,"},{"startTime":3284.13,"endTime":3289.13,"body":"heritage managers, and pagans"},{"startTime":3284.13,"endTime":3289.13,"body":"as to who had moral custody"},{"startTime":3290.22,"endTime":3293.1,"body":"of the site and how it should be treated,"},{"startTime":3293.1,"endTime":3295.47,"body":"which since this had"},{"startTime":3293.1,"endTime":3295.47,"body":"never happened before,"},{"startTime":3295.47,"endTime":3299.49,"body":"the heritage managers"},{"startTime":3295.47,"endTime":3299.49,"body":"bungled, which I think"},{"startTime":3299.49,"endTime":3303.31,"body":"they now fully acknowledge"},{"startTime":3299.49,"endTime":3303.31,"body":"it was a learning process."},{"startTime":3303.31,"endTime":3307.17,"body":"The result was that after"},{"startTime":3303.31,"endTime":3307.17,"body":"conservation and treatment,"},{"startTime":3307.17,"endTime":3309.81,"body":"the circle is now in Kingsland museum"},{"startTime":3309.81,"endTime":3312.45,"body":"and can be enjoyed there."},{"startTime":3312.45,"endTime":3315.69,"body":"But it was a tough summer"},{"startTime":3312.45,"endTime":3315.69,"body":"for all the parties"},{"startTime":3315.69,"endTime":3318.48,"body":"that I've described in"},{"startTime":3315.69,"endTime":3318.48,"body":"what were often bitter"},{"startTime":3318.48,"endTime":3322.38,"body":"and emotional contestations"},{"startTime":3318.48,"endTime":3322.38,"body":"over how this site should be"},{"startTime":3322.38,"endTime":3324.15,"body":"regarded and treated."},{"startTime":3324.15,"endTime":3326.79,"body":"- With the noticeable a"},{"startTime":3324.15,"endTime":3326.79,"body":"alignments with the sun"},{"startTime":3326.79,"endTime":3328.83,"body":"at certain times of the year being tied"},{"startTime":3328.83,"endTime":3332.46,"body":"to more parts of the building"},{"startTime":3328.83,"endTime":3332.46,"body":"of both Stonehenge in England"},{"startTime":3332.46,"endTime":3334.923,"body":"and Newgrange in Ireland, are there,"},{"startTime":3336.39,"endTime":3339.03,"body":"and now my, oh here we go,"},{"startTime":3339.03,"endTime":3341.94,"body":"the light's come back,"},{"startTime":3339.03,"endTime":3341.94,"body":"full of suspense now"},{"startTime":3341.94,"endTime":3344.7,"body":"for the main question, are"},{"startTime":3341.94,"endTime":3344.7,"body":"there other similarities"},{"startTime":3344.7,"endTime":3347.34,"body":"between these two sites?"},{"startTime":3347.34,"endTime":3351.48,"body":"- Yes, they, they all begin"},{"startTime":3347.34,"endTime":3351.48,"body":"at around the same time,"},{"startTime":3351.48,"endTime":3356.48,"body":"which is 3200, 2900 BC or BCE"},{"startTime":3351.48,"endTime":3356.48,"body":"when two big things happen"},{"startTime":3357.822,"endTime":3362.822,"body":"in the then Britain Islands"},{"startTime":3357.822,"endTime":3362.822,"body":"and other islands around,"},{"startTime":3363.33,"endTime":3368.33,"body":"which is first the peoples"},{"startTime":3363.33,"endTime":3368.33,"body":"go nuts about round shapes."},{"startTime":3369.06,"endTime":3371.46,"body":"Until now the circle have not been"},{"startTime":3371.46,"endTime":3374.25,"body":"the main unit of sacred space."},{"startTime":3374.25,"endTime":3379.25,"body":"And now it becomes so"},{"startTime":3374.25,"endTime":3379.25,"body":"definitively either the older tomb"},{"startTime":3381.15,"endTime":3385.23,"body":"shrines box-like"},{"startTime":3381.15,"endTime":3385.23,"body":"arrangements of big stones,"},{"startTime":3385.23,"endTime":3389.79,"body":"chambers with the dead in them"},{"startTime":3385.23,"endTime":3389.79,"body":"are given huge round mounds"},{"startTime":3389.79,"endTime":3392.79,"body":"or else they're abandoned,"},{"startTime":3389.79,"endTime":3392.79,"body":"and people start worshiping"},{"startTime":3392.79,"endTime":3395.85,"body":"in circles of earth or timbers or stones."},{"startTime":3395.85,"endTime":3397.227,"body":"The stone circle."},{"startTime":3397.227,"endTime":3400.71,"body":"And the second thing in which"},{"startTime":3397.227,"endTime":3400.71,"body":"is probably linked is that"},{"startTime":3400.71,"endTime":3405.71,"body":"peoples go very excited"},{"startTime":3400.71,"endTime":3405.71,"body":"over heavenly bodies is"},{"startTime":3406.612,"endTime":3408.45,"body":"certainly the sum."},{"startTime":3408.45,"endTime":3411.93,"body":"So the three greatest prehistoric"},{"startTime":3408.45,"endTime":3411.93,"body":"monuments of the three"},{"startTime":3411.93,"endTime":3415.53,"body":"great Irish and British"},{"startTime":3411.93,"endTime":3415.53,"body":"realms are all the lines"},{"startTime":3415.53,"endTime":3417.87,"body":"on the solstices, Newgrange in Ireland"},{"startTime":3417.87,"endTime":3421.38,"body":"on the midwinter sunrise,"},{"startTime":3417.87,"endTime":3421.38,"body":"Maeshowe in Scotland"},{"startTime":3421.38,"endTime":3424.38,"body":"on the midwinter sunset, and Stonehenge"},{"startTime":3424.38,"endTime":3427.47,"body":"upon the midwinter sunset,"},{"startTime":3424.38,"endTime":3427.47,"body":"the midsummer sunrise,"},{"startTime":3427.47,"endTime":3430.05,"body":"and La Hougue Bie, which"},{"startTime":3427.47,"endTime":3430.05,"body":"just for the record is"},{"startTime":3430.05,"endTime":3433.29,"body":"the best prehistoric monument,"},{"startTime":3430.05,"endTime":3433.29,"body":"in the Channel Islands is"},{"startTime":3433.29,"endTime":3435.53,"body":"aligned on the equinoxes."},{"startTime":3435.53,"endTime":3438.9,"body":"This is a particular phase of prehistory"},{"startTime":3438.9,"endTime":3442.74,"body":"in which alignments,"},{"startTime":3438.9,"endTime":3442.74,"body":"certainly solar, maybe lunar"},{"startTime":3442.74,"endTime":3446.22,"body":"and stellar as well suddenly"},{"startTime":3442.74,"endTime":3446.22,"body":"become very important."},{"startTime":3446.22,"endTime":3448.02,"body":"- Okay."},{"startTime":3446.22,"endTime":3448.02,"body":"- We dunno why it's"},{"startTime":3448.02,"endTime":3451.0,"body":"a kind of like a reformation"},{"startTime":3451.86,"endTime":3454.56,"body":"in pre-history of which there are a number"},{"startTime":3454.56,"endTime":3458.46,"body":"in which the religion changes,"},{"startTime":3454.56,"endTime":3458.46,"body":"it seems dramatically,"},{"startTime":3458.46,"endTime":3462.36,"body":"that there are at least a"},{"startTime":3458.46,"endTime":3462.36,"body":"dozen great novels waiting"},{"startTime":3462.36,"endTime":3464.223,"body":"to be born in this story."},{"startTime":3465.09,"endTime":3465.923,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":3465.09,"endTime":3465.923,"body":"- Wow."},{"startTime":3465.923,"endTime":3468.54,"body":"And on that wonderful inspiring note,"},{"startTime":3468.54,"endTime":3471.6,"body":"that was absolutely fascinating, Ronald,"},{"startTime":3471.6,"endTime":3475.02,"body":"and I can't get the image"},{"startTime":3471.6,"endTime":3475.02,"body":"of Stonehenge being built"},{"startTime":3475.02,"endTime":3478.47,"body":"by megalomaniacs and"},{"startTime":3475.02,"endTime":3478.47,"body":"cowboys out of my head."},{"startTime":3478.47,"endTime":3481.05,"body":"I think that's a wonderful"},{"startTime":3478.47,"endTime":3481.05,"body":"quote amongst many"},{"startTime":3481.05,"endTime":3483.66,"body":"in your lecture, and we're"},{"startTime":3481.05,"endTime":3483.66,"body":"very much looking forward"},{"startTime":3483.66,"endTime":3486.473,"body":"to your subsequent lectures in the series."},{"startTime":3486.473,"endTime":3487.941,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":3486.473,"endTime":3487.941,"body":"- Thank you so much."},{"startTime":3487.941,"endTime":3490.768,"body":"(crowd applauding)"}]}