{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.57,"endTime":3.75,"body":"- So, this is a new series."},{"startTime":3.75,"endTime":5.943,"body":"It's kicking off this academic year."},{"startTime":6.87,"endTime":11.433,"body":"And when I was asked to think about it,"},{"startTime":12.27,"endTime":15.543,"body":"I thought, let's reimagine the law."},{"startTime":16.59,"endTime":17.913,"body":"Can we do better?"},{"startTime":19.2,"endTime":20.4,"body":"So, I'm going to kick off"},{"startTime":20.4,"endTime":23.943,"body":"this lecture series"},{"startTime":20.4,"endTime":23.943,"body":"with a simple question."},{"startTime":24.87,"endTime":26.673,"body":"Do we need juries?"},{"startTime":28.59,"endTime":30.75,"body":"For my whole career,"},{"startTime":30.75,"endTime":33.03,"body":"I've practiced law in England and Wales,"},{"startTime":33.03,"endTime":35.4,"body":"another Commonwealth jurisdictions,"},{"startTime":35.4,"endTime":37.323,"body":"which use the English common law."},{"startTime":38.22,"endTime":39.78,"body":"Juries are often thought"},{"startTime":39.78,"endTime":44.78,"body":"as the very essence of the"},{"startTime":39.78,"endTime":44.78,"body":"institution of English law,"},{"startTime":46.59,"endTime":51.483,"body":"just as the investigative"},{"startTime":46.59,"endTime":51.483,"body":"magistrate is in French law."},{"startTime":52.65,"endTime":54.877,"body":"And jury trials are,"},{"startTime":56.1,"endTime":57.25,"body":"well, how can I put it?"},{"startTime":58.11,"endTime":63.11,"body":"A constant presence in our"},{"startTime":58.11,"endTime":63.11,"body":"literature, in popular culture."},{"startTime":63.81,"endTime":66.72,"body":"Sorry about the feedback. I"},{"startTime":63.81,"endTime":66.72,"body":"dunno why that's happening."},{"startTime":66.72,"endTime":68.823,"body":"I'm sure they'll fix it in a moment."},{"startTime":71.25,"endTime":72.083,"body":"But"},{"startTime":73.8,"endTime":76.803,"body":"if you think about it,"},{"startTime":73.8,"endTime":76.803,"body":"most members of the public,"},{"startTime":77.67,"endTime":79.32,"body":"even those who've never"},{"startTime":79.32,"endTime":81.93,"body":"come into contact with the legal system,"},{"startTime":81.93,"endTime":85.863,"body":"will have some basic"},{"startTime":81.93,"endTime":85.863,"body":"idea of what the jury is."},{"startTime":86.79,"endTime":89.91,"body":"And the institution of the jury"},{"startTime":89.91,"endTime":93.24,"body":"has often been romanticized"},{"startTime":89.91,"endTime":93.24,"body":"(attendee coughing)"},{"startTime":93.24,"endTime":97.92,"body":"as a part of our national mythos,"},{"startTime":97.92,"endTime":102.92,"body":"the right to trial by jury, the"},{"startTime":97.92,"endTime":102.92,"body":"right to trial by one peers."},{"startTime":102.997,"endTime":106.102,"body":"\"Twelve Good Men and True\""},{"startTime":106.102,"endTime":109.698,"body":"has historically been"},{"startTime":106.102,"endTime":109.698,"body":"held up as a safeguard"},{"startTime":109.698,"endTime":113.373,"body":"of an English man's liberty."},{"startTime":114.75,"endTime":118.99,"body":"Many defenders of the"},{"startTime":114.75,"endTime":118.99,"body":"jury trial often quote"},{"startTime":121.41,"endTime":125.283,"body":"those famous words in clause"},{"startTime":121.41,"endTime":125.283,"body":"39 of the Magna Carta."},{"startTime":126.21,"endTime":127.91,"body":"There's a copy of the Magna Carta."},{"startTime":131.099,"endTime":134.79,"body":"These words, \"No free man shall be seized"},{"startTime":134.79,"endTime":137.91,"body":"or imprisoned or stripped"},{"startTime":134.79,"endTime":137.91,"body":"of his rights or possessions"},{"startTime":137.91,"endTime":141.39,"body":"or outlawed or exiled or"},{"startTime":137.91,"endTime":141.39,"body":"deprived of his standing"},{"startTime":141.39,"endTime":144.45,"body":"or in any other way, nor shall we proceed"},{"startTime":144.45,"endTime":147.93,"body":"with force against him"},{"startTime":144.45,"endTime":147.93,"body":"or send others to do so,"},{"startTime":147.93,"endTime":150.57,"body":"except by the lawful judgment"},{"startTime":150.57,"endTime":154.257,"body":"of his equals or by the law of the land.\""},{"startTime":156.3,"endTime":159.26,"body":"In fact, however, the use of jury trials"},{"startTime":159.26,"endTime":162.66,"body":"in England and Wales"},{"startTime":159.26,"endTime":162.66,"body":"today is rather limited."},{"startTime":162.66,"endTime":167.4,"body":"Juries today principally"},{"startTime":162.66,"endTime":167.4,"body":"are used in criminal cases,"},{"startTime":167.4,"endTime":172.193,"body":"but juries only decide a small"},{"startTime":167.4,"endTime":172.193,"body":"proportion of criminal cases."},{"startTime":173.31,"endTime":176.61,"body":"Defendants charged with minor offenses,"},{"startTime":176.61,"endTime":179.4,"body":"which we call summary only offenses,"},{"startTime":179.4,"endTime":183.513,"body":"are often dealt with by magistrates."},{"startTime":185.34,"endTime":190.34,"body":"And defendants charged"},{"startTime":185.34,"endTime":190.34,"body":"with more serious offenses,"},{"startTime":190.658,"endTime":193.113,"body":"those tribal either way,"},{"startTime":194.31,"endTime":198.0,"body":"can choose between magistrates and juries."},{"startTime":198.0,"endTime":202.17,"body":"And it's only in the"},{"startTime":198.0,"endTime":202.17,"body":"most serious of offenses,"},{"startTime":202.17,"endTime":205.71,"body":"indictable offenses, that there is a right"},{"startTime":205.71,"endTime":208.803,"body":"to a trial by jury in the Crown Court."},{"startTime":209.7,"endTime":212.79,"body":"But even then, a large number"},{"startTime":209.7,"endTime":212.79,"body":"of these indictable offenses"},{"startTime":212.79,"endTime":214.83,"body":"are not in fact, dealt with a jury,"},{"startTime":214.83,"endTime":216.493,"body":"because for instance,"},{"startTime":216.493,"endTime":220.86,"body":"a defendant may well plead"},{"startTime":216.493,"endTime":220.86,"body":"guilty prior to trial."},{"startTime":220.86,"endTime":223.706,"body":"In short, thousands of people"},{"startTime":223.706,"endTime":226.446,"body":"every year are arrested, charged,"},{"startTime":226.446,"endTime":230.313,"body":"and convicted without ever seeing a jury."},{"startTime":231.66,"endTime":235.2,"body":"Although juries were historically used"},{"startTime":235.2,"endTime":237.15,"body":"in civil trials in England,"},{"startTime":237.15,"endTime":241.17,"body":"the use of civil juries"},{"startTime":237.15,"endTime":241.17,"body":"stays extremely limited."},{"startTime":241.17,"endTime":245.431,"body":"Many English civil lawyers"},{"startTime":241.17,"endTime":245.431,"body":"go their entire careers"},{"startTime":245.431,"endTime":247.99,"body":"without ever appearing before"},{"startTime":248.97,"endTime":250.56,"body":"a jury."},{"startTime":250.56,"endTime":255.145,"body":"However, as a large"},{"startTime":250.56,"endTime":255.145,"body":"proportion of my practice"},{"startTime":255.145,"endTime":259.6,"body":"has involved actions"},{"startTime":255.145,"endTime":259.6,"body":"involved in the police or"},{"startTime":260.7,"endTime":262.83,"body":"deaths in custody,"},{"startTime":262.83,"endTime":265.8,"body":"I have more experience"},{"startTime":262.83,"endTime":265.8,"body":"of civil jury trials"},{"startTime":265.8,"endTime":269.883,"body":"than most other lawyers do."},{"startTime":271.14,"endTime":273.45,"body":"Coroners, as I've mentioned"},{"startTime":271.14,"endTime":273.45,"body":"in England and Wales,"},{"startTime":273.45,"endTime":275.58,"body":"can summon juries for inquest."},{"startTime":275.58,"endTime":279.03,"body":"Most inquest take place without a jury."},{"startTime":279.03,"endTime":281.25,"body":"But a jury's required in certain cases,"},{"startTime":281.25,"endTime":284.001,"body":"and I touched upon this"},{"startTime":281.25,"endTime":284.001,"body":"in my first series."},{"startTime":284.001,"endTime":287.763,"body":"And if you haven't seen it,"},{"startTime":284.001,"endTime":287.763,"body":"you can get it on, catch up."},{"startTime":289.08,"endTime":293.46,"body":"The task of the juries in most cases"},{"startTime":293.46,"endTime":297.04,"body":"tend to relate to cases where"},{"startTime":297.93,"endTime":298.953,"body":"principally,"},{"startTime":301.05,"endTime":305.46,"body":"the death has been caused or"},{"startTime":301.05,"endTime":305.46,"body":"contributed to by the actions"},{"startTime":305.46,"endTime":308.82,"body":"of state agents, principally the police."},{"startTime":308.82,"endTime":310.47,"body":"The task of a coroner's jury, of course,"},{"startTime":310.47,"endTime":311.64,"body":"is very different from the task"},{"startTime":311.64,"endTime":314.76,"body":"of a jury at a criminal"},{"startTime":311.64,"endTime":314.76,"body":"trial or civil trial."},{"startTime":314.76,"endTime":317.703,"body":"And in many ways, even more challenging."},{"startTime":318.54,"endTime":320.25,"body":"And as I said, I talked about coroners,"},{"startTime":320.25,"endTime":323.07,"body":"juries in my previous lecture series."},{"startTime":323.07,"endTime":325.89,"body":"And we're not going to be"},{"startTime":323.07,"endTime":325.89,"body":"looking at coroners today."},{"startTime":325.89,"endTime":327.75,"body":"I should mention at this stage"},{"startTime":327.75,"endTime":331.32,"body":"that the Scottish legal"},{"startTime":327.75,"endTime":331.32,"body":"system also uses juries,"},{"startTime":331.32,"endTime":333.808,"body":"although they are numerous"},{"startTime":333.808,"endTime":338.37,"body":"important differences between"},{"startTime":333.808,"endTime":338.37,"body":"Scottish and English practice."},{"startTime":338.37,"endTime":339.51,"body":"And in this lecture,"},{"startTime":339.51,"endTime":342.753,"body":"I'm only going to be concentrating"},{"startTime":339.51,"endTime":342.753,"body":"on the English system."},{"startTime":344.37,"endTime":346.05,"body":"When we look beyond the UK"},{"startTime":346.05,"endTime":347.4,"body":"to other parts of the Commonwealth,"},{"startTime":347.4,"endTime":350.88,"body":"we see that the use of jury"},{"startTime":347.4,"endTime":350.88,"body":"trials is inconsistent."},{"startTime":350.88,"endTime":355.29,"body":"Some Commonwealth jurisdiction"},{"startTime":350.88,"endTime":355.29,"body":"such as India, Singapore,"},{"startTime":355.29,"endTime":360.03,"body":"South Africa, have"},{"startTime":355.29,"endTime":360.03,"body":"abolished juries altogether."},{"startTime":360.03,"endTime":362.67,"body":"Others, Hong Kong, only use them"},{"startTime":362.67,"endTime":364.863,"body":"in very limited number of cases."},{"startTime":366.48,"endTime":367.473,"body":"And Australia."},{"startTime":368.61,"endTime":371.01,"body":"And however, in the Commonwealth,"},{"startTime":371.01,"endTime":373.8,"body":"Caribbean, where I also practice,"},{"startTime":373.8,"endTime":376.05,"body":"trial by jury continues to be used"},{"startTime":376.05,"endTime":378.513,"body":"for the most serious criminal cases."},{"startTime":379.929,"endTime":382.83,"body":"The country associated,"},{"startTime":382.83,"endTime":387.72,"body":"most associated with jury trials"},{"startTime":382.83,"endTime":387.72,"body":"today is the United States"},{"startTime":387.72,"endTime":388.98,"body":"where jury trials are used"},{"startTime":388.98,"endTime":392.25,"body":"for both in criminal and civil cases,"},{"startTime":392.25,"endTime":395.313,"body":"both at a federal and state level."},{"startTime":396.3,"endTime":398.01,"body":"The United States has retained"},{"startTime":398.01,"endTime":401.313,"body":"a much wider use of jury"},{"startTime":398.01,"endTime":401.313,"body":"trials than England,"},{"startTime":402.24,"endTime":405.33,"body":"although practices vary"},{"startTime":402.24,"endTime":405.33,"body":"from state to state."},{"startTime":405.33,"endTime":408.78,"body":"Importantly, American jury"},{"startTime":405.33,"endTime":408.78,"body":"trials differ from English"},{"startTime":408.78,"endTime":412.11,"body":"and most jury trials in significant ways."},{"startTime":412.11,"endTime":413.4,"body":"And we'll be exploring"},{"startTime":413.4,"endTime":416.76,"body":"some of those ways later in this lecture."},{"startTime":416.76,"endTime":418.65,"body":"Finally, I should acknowledge"},{"startTime":418.65,"endTime":422.572,"body":"that in some civil"},{"startTime":418.65,"endTime":422.572,"body":"jurisdictions such as France,"},{"startTime":422.572,"endTime":425.46,"body":"they do have a form of trial by jury."},{"startTime":425.46,"endTime":428.13,"body":"But as an English lawyer,"},{"startTime":428.13,"endTime":431.193,"body":"I'm going to concentrate"},{"startTime":428.13,"endTime":431.193,"body":"on common law juries."},{"startTime":432.27,"endTime":436.233,"body":"Now, jury trials are"},{"startTime":432.27,"endTime":436.233,"body":"controversial subject."},{"startTime":438.18,"endTime":440.28,"body":"You speak to lawyers,"},{"startTime":440.28,"endTime":443.98,"body":"many people are deeply"},{"startTime":440.28,"endTime":443.98,"body":"attached to them as a safeguard"},{"startTime":445.26,"endTime":446.26,"body":"of liberty"},{"startTime":447.12,"endTime":449.85,"body":"and a bull walk against state power."},{"startTime":449.85,"endTime":452.37,"body":"However, others are skeptical."},{"startTime":452.37,"endTime":454.86,"body":"In recent decades, much of the criticism"},{"startTime":454.86,"endTime":459.54,"body":"of juries is concentrated"},{"startTime":454.86,"endTime":459.54,"body":"on the questions of bias."},{"startTime":459.54,"endTime":462.21,"body":"And many people are"},{"startTime":459.54,"endTime":462.21,"body":"understandably concerned"},{"startTime":462.21,"endTime":464.25,"body":"that when guilt or innocence"},{"startTime":464.25,"endTime":467.995,"body":"are decided by 12 members of the public"},{"startTime":467.995,"endTime":471.78,"body":"who can bring their own"},{"startTime":467.995,"endTime":471.78,"body":"prejudices to the table,"},{"startTime":471.78,"endTime":473.703,"body":"that is of concern."},{"startTime":478.41,"endTime":479.97,"body":"They treat"},{"startTime":479.97,"endTime":482.37,"body":"juries, it's been said,"},{"startTime":482.37,"endTime":484.89,"body":"some defendants less"},{"startTime":482.37,"endTime":484.89,"body":"favorable than others."},{"startTime":484.89,"endTime":488.64,"body":"For example, you might reasonably expect"},{"startTime":488.64,"endTime":491.85,"body":"or assume that an all White jury"},{"startTime":491.85,"endTime":496.473,"body":"might harbor some biases"},{"startTime":491.85,"endTime":496.473,"body":"against a Black defendant."},{"startTime":499.89,"endTime":502.02,"body":"We'll explore that later on."},{"startTime":502.02,"endTime":504.84,"body":"In fact, however, as we see,"},{"startTime":504.84,"endTime":508.92,"body":"the evidence paints a mixed picture"},{"startTime":508.92,"endTime":512.643,"body":"as to whether jury verdicts"},{"startTime":508.92,"endTime":512.643,"body":"are racially biased or not."},{"startTime":513.81,"endTime":517.32,"body":"There is some evidence that they're not,"},{"startTime":517.32,"endTime":520.59,"body":"and this is a key point"},{"startTime":517.32,"endTime":520.59,"body":"in the David Lammy review"},{"startTime":520.59,"endTime":524.64,"body":"of ethnic minorities in the"},{"startTime":520.59,"endTime":524.64,"body":"criminal justice system."},{"startTime":524.64,"endTime":527.793,"body":"But the point is debated."},{"startTime":528.9,"endTime":530.004,"body":"Later in this lecture,"},{"startTime":530.004,"endTime":533.854,"body":"we'll get to the evidence"},{"startTime":530.004,"endTime":533.854,"body":"that Lammy relied on"},{"startTime":533.854,"endTime":537.813,"body":"and the criticisms that"},{"startTime":533.854,"endTime":537.813,"body":"others have made of it."},{"startTime":539.07,"endTime":542.97,"body":"But when it comes to the"},{"startTime":539.07,"endTime":542.97,"body":"merits of a jury trial,"},{"startTime":542.97,"endTime":545.636,"body":"bias is not the whole story."},{"startTime":545.636,"endTime":549.33,"body":"We don't just want to know whether juries"},{"startTime":549.33,"endTime":551.22,"body":"are biased against particular groups."},{"startTime":551.22,"endTime":555.03,"body":"We also want to know whether"},{"startTime":551.22,"endTime":555.03,"body":"they're getting it right."},{"startTime":555.03,"endTime":557.04,"body":"For instance, in criminal cases,"},{"startTime":557.04,"endTime":559.41,"body":"whether they're convicting the guilty"},{"startTime":559.41,"endTime":561.063,"body":"and acquitting the innocent."},{"startTime":562.02,"endTime":566.58,"body":"After all, a legal system that"},{"startTime":562.02,"endTime":566.58,"body":"decided guilt or innocence"},{"startTime":566.58,"endTime":571.58,"body":"by tossing a coin would"},{"startTime":566.58,"endTime":571.58,"body":"also show no racial bias."},{"startTime":572.1,"endTime":575.553,"body":"But that doesn't mean that"},{"startTime":572.1,"endTime":575.553,"body":"it gets to the right answers."},{"startTime":576.54,"endTime":580.293,"body":"And there is a much more"},{"startTime":576.54,"endTime":580.293,"body":"difficult question to answer."},{"startTime":581.52,"endTime":583.96,"body":"We can measure"},{"startTime":585.09,"endTime":588.03,"body":"empirically whether juries are more likely"},{"startTime":588.03,"endTime":591.63,"body":"to convict members of particular groups,"},{"startTime":591.63,"endTime":593.735,"body":"but we can't measure empirically"},{"startTime":593.735,"endTime":597.513,"body":"whether juries are making"},{"startTime":593.735,"endTime":597.513,"body":"the right decisions."},{"startTime":600.09,"endTime":601.95,"body":"To state the obvious,"},{"startTime":601.95,"endTime":605.7,"body":"we don't have any objective"},{"startTime":601.95,"endTime":605.7,"body":"measure of whether people"},{"startTime":605.7,"endTime":607.47,"body":"are convicting"},{"startTime":605.7,"endTime":607.47,"body":"(attendee sneezes)"},{"startTime":607.47,"endTime":608.88,"body":"the people that who are actually"},{"startTime":608.88,"endTime":610.98,"body":"being convicted or actually guilty,"},{"startTime":610.98,"endTime":615.81,"body":"or whether they are"},{"startTime":610.98,"endTime":615.81,"body":"actually acquitting people,"},{"startTime":615.81,"endTime":619.14,"body":"who are innocent, because"},{"startTime":615.81,"endTime":619.14,"body":"they are innocent."},{"startTime":619.14,"endTime":621.03,"body":"And unlike judges,"},{"startTime":621.03,"endTime":625.47,"body":"juries don't have to give"},{"startTime":621.03,"endTime":625.47,"body":"reasons for their decisions."},{"startTime":625.47,"endTime":630.15,"body":"So, we can't assess the"},{"startTime":625.47,"endTime":630.15,"body":"quality of their reasoning."},{"startTime":630.15,"endTime":633.27,"body":"In answering this question however,"},{"startTime":633.27,"endTime":634.29,"body":"however, we have to look"},{"startTime":634.29,"endTime":636.84,"body":"at the alternatives to a jury trial."},{"startTime":636.84,"endTime":639.84,"body":"Even if juries are getting it wrong,"},{"startTime":639.84,"endTime":643.89,"body":"it doesn't necessarily follow"},{"startTime":639.84,"endTime":643.89,"body":"that professional judges"},{"startTime":643.89,"endTime":645.99,"body":"or lay magistrates"},{"startTime":645.99,"endTime":650.82,"body":"who also have their own biases,"},{"startTime":645.99,"endTime":650.82,"body":"prejudices, and failings"},{"startTime":650.82,"endTime":654.12,"body":"would be more likely to get it right."},{"startTime":654.12,"endTime":655.74,"body":"So, in today's lecture,"},{"startTime":655.74,"endTime":658.5,"body":"we're going to tackle"},{"startTime":655.74,"endTime":658.5,"body":"these questions head on."},{"startTime":658.5,"endTime":660.54,"body":"I'm going to divide the"},{"startTime":658.5,"endTime":660.54,"body":"lecture into three parts."},{"startTime":660.54,"endTime":662.28,"body":"The first part, we're going to"},{"startTime":662.28,"endTime":666.03,"body":"dive into how this jury system"},{"startTime":662.28,"endTime":666.03,"body":"works in England and Wales."},{"startTime":666.03,"endTime":668.19,"body":"The second part, we'll examine"},{"startTime":668.19,"endTime":671.16,"body":"the best available"},{"startTime":668.19,"endTime":671.16,"body":"evidence about jury bias,"},{"startTime":671.16,"endTime":672.33,"body":"and compare and contrast it"},{"startTime":672.33,"endTime":675.0,"body":"with the evidence about judicial bias."},{"startTime":675.0,"endTime":675.84,"body":"And in the third part,"},{"startTime":675.84,"endTime":677.749,"body":"we'll tackle the really"},{"startTime":675.84,"endTime":677.749,"body":"difficult questions,"},{"startTime":677.749,"endTime":680.763,"body":"are juries getting it right?"},{"startTime":685.59,"endTime":687.39,"body":"Juries in England and Wales."},{"startTime":687.39,"endTime":688.83,"body":"As most people know,"},{"startTime":688.83,"endTime":691.683,"body":"juries in England and"},{"startTime":688.83,"endTime":691.683,"body":"Wales' on ancient tradition."},{"startTime":692.79,"endTime":695.76,"body":"Now, I don't have time to"},{"startTime":692.79,"endTime":695.76,"body":"cover the whole history"},{"startTime":695.76,"endTime":699.84,"body":"of the English jury,"},{"startTime":695.76,"endTime":699.84,"body":"which is vast and complex."},{"startTime":699.84,"endTime":700.86,"body":"The role of the jury"},{"startTime":700.86,"endTime":703.77,"body":"has changed substantially"},{"startTime":700.86,"endTime":703.77,"body":"over the centuries."},{"startTime":703.77,"endTime":705.24,"body":"Historically, juries were used"},{"startTime":705.24,"endTime":708.05,"body":"both in criminal and civil cases."},{"startTime":708.05,"endTime":710.01,"body":"And in criminal cases,"},{"startTime":710.01,"endTime":712.53,"body":"there was a distinction"},{"startTime":710.01,"endTime":712.53,"body":"between a grand jury,"},{"startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.994,"body":"which decided whether that the"},{"startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.994,"body":"accused should be indicted."},{"startTime":715.994,"endTime":720.994,"body":"And the petit jury, which"},{"startTime":715.994,"endTime":720.994,"body":"actually tried the accused."},{"startTime":721.56,"endTime":723.09,"body":"They still have the system"},{"startTime":723.09,"endTime":725.91,"body":"of grand juries in the United States."},{"startTime":725.91,"endTime":729.3,"body":"A landmark early case on the"},{"startTime":725.91,"endTime":729.3,"body":"constitutional independence"},{"startTime":729.3,"endTime":732.603,"body":"of the jury was the Bushel case in 1670."},{"startTime":735.63,"endTime":740.16,"body":"There, a jury had refused"},{"startTime":735.63,"endTime":740.16,"body":"to convict two Quakers,"},{"startTime":740.16,"endTime":743.97,"body":"William Penn, who went"},{"startTime":740.16,"endTime":743.97,"body":"on to found Pennsylvania,"},{"startTime":743.97,"endTime":745.44,"body":"and William Mead,"},{"startTime":745.44,"endTime":749.13,"body":"for addressing an illegal"},{"startTime":745.44,"endTime":749.13,"body":"religious assembly."},{"startTime":749.13,"endTime":753.81,"body":"The trial judge find the"},{"startTime":749.13,"endTime":753.81,"body":"jury for contempt of court."},{"startTime":753.81,"endTime":756.87,"body":"The juror, William Bushel,"},{"startTime":753.81,"endTime":756.87,"body":"challenged his fine"},{"startTime":756.87,"endTime":758.82,"body":"before the Court of Common Pleas,"},{"startTime":758.82,"endTime":760.77,"body":"which held that jurors were not fineable"},{"startTime":760.77,"endTime":763.68,"body":"for returning a verdict"},{"startTime":760.77,"endTime":763.68,"body":"contrary to the evidence."},{"startTime":763.68,"endTime":766.17,"body":"And this case is often"},{"startTime":763.68,"endTime":766.17,"body":"cited as an early example"},{"startTime":766.17,"endTime":768.389,"body":"of jury nullification"},{"startTime":768.389,"endTime":772.38,"body":"where jurors protest an unjust law"},{"startTime":772.38,"endTime":774.723,"body":"by acquitting a defendant."},{"startTime":775.966,"endTime":780.966,"body":"Didn't that happen recently"},{"startTime":775.966,"endTime":780.966,"body":"with the statues being toppled"},{"startTime":781.26,"endTime":783.873,"body":"and there was a court of"},{"startTime":781.26,"endTime":783.873,"body":"appeal decision yesterday?"},{"startTime":786.36,"endTime":790.53,"body":"While jury nullification has"},{"startTime":786.36,"endTime":790.53,"body":"been a controversial subject,"},{"startTime":790.53,"endTime":791.447,"body":"it remains the case today"},{"startTime":791.447,"endTime":795.69,"body":"that a judge cannot direct a"},{"startTime":791.447,"endTime":795.69,"body":"jury to convict a defendant"},{"startTime":795.69,"endTime":798.09,"body":"and that jurors cannot be punished"},{"startTime":798.09,"endTime":801.12,"body":"for deciding to acquit a defendant."},{"startTime":801.12,"endTime":803.853,"body":"However much, a judge"},{"startTime":801.12,"endTime":803.853,"body":"might want to punish them."},{"startTime":805.89,"endTime":809.34,"body":"In the 20th century sought"},{"startTime":805.89,"endTime":809.34,"body":"a significant erosion"},{"startTime":809.34,"endTime":811.002,"body":"of the right to jury trials."},{"startTime":811.002,"endTime":813.21,"body":"The general right to a civil jury trial"},{"startTime":813.21,"endTime":815.52,"body":"was removed in the early 20th century,"},{"startTime":815.52,"endTime":817.992,"body":"except for some specific thoughts,"},{"startTime":817.992,"endTime":822.27,"body":"malicious prosecution,"},{"startTime":817.992,"endTime":822.27,"body":"liable false imprisonment."},{"startTime":822.27,"endTime":825.33,"body":"The general right to civil"},{"startTime":822.27,"endTime":825.33,"body":"jury trial was removed"},{"startTime":825.33,"endTime":828.69,"body":"and the list has been"},{"startTime":825.33,"endTime":828.69,"body":"further eroded over time."},{"startTime":828.69,"endTime":831.84,"body":"So, today, there's only"},{"startTime":828.69,"endTime":831.84,"body":"a right to a jury trial"},{"startTime":831.84,"endTime":833.82,"body":"involving allegations of fraud"},{"startTime":833.82,"endTime":835.68,"body":"and as I say, malicious prosecution,"},{"startTime":835.68,"endTime":838.32,"body":"false imprisonment, and the like."},{"startTime":838.32,"endTime":840.346,"body":"Meanwhile, in criminal cases,"},{"startTime":840.346,"endTime":843.483,"body":"the grand jury has been"},{"startTime":840.346,"endTime":843.483,"body":"abolished all together."},{"startTime":844.62,"endTime":848.19,"body":"The Sex Disqualification"},{"startTime":844.62,"endTime":848.19,"body":"Removal Act of 1919"},{"startTime":848.19,"endTime":852.03,"body":"allowed women to serve on"},{"startTime":848.19,"endTime":852.03,"body":"juries for the first time."},{"startTime":852.03,"endTime":855.45,"body":"However, there were still"},{"startTime":852.03,"endTime":855.45,"body":"property qualifications"},{"startTime":855.45,"endTime":858.492,"body":"that meant that people"},{"startTime":855.45,"endTime":858.492,"body":"with insufficient property"},{"startTime":858.492,"endTime":861.213,"body":"could not serve on juries."},{"startTime":862.11,"endTime":864.13,"body":"The Property Qualification"},{"startTime":865.304,"endTime":870.304,"body":"Act was finally abolished"},{"startTime":865.304,"endTime":870.304,"body":"by the Juries Act 1974."},{"startTime":870.48,"endTime":872.13,"body":"And majority of verdicts were allowed"},{"startTime":872.13,"endTime":876.69,"body":"for the first time by the"},{"startTime":872.13,"endTime":876.69,"body":"Criminal Justice Act 1967,"},{"startTime":876.69,"endTime":879.087,"body":"departing from the ancient"},{"startTime":876.69,"endTime":879.087,"body":"rule that the verdict,"},{"startTime":879.087,"endTime":882.18,"body":"the jury verdict had to be unanimous."},{"startTime":882.18,"endTime":884.16,"body":"And so, we come to the position today."},{"startTime":884.16,"endTime":885.39,"body":"Today, the vast majority"},{"startTime":885.39,"endTime":888.72,"body":"of the English and Wales"},{"startTime":885.39,"endTime":888.72,"body":"jury sit in criminal trials."},{"startTime":888.72,"endTime":890.52,"body":"And as such, for the"},{"startTime":888.72,"endTime":890.52,"body":"focus of this lecture,"},{"startTime":890.52,"endTime":892.203,"body":"we'll be on criminal trials."},{"startTime":894.12,"endTime":896.4,"body":"And as you may well know,"},{"startTime":896.4,"endTime":901.23,"body":"the criminal jury in this"},{"startTime":896.4,"endTime":901.23,"body":"jurisdiction consists of 12 people"},{"startTime":901.23,"endTime":904.02,"body":"who are selected from"},{"startTime":901.23,"endTime":904.02,"body":"the electoral register."},{"startTime":904.02,"endTime":906.78,"body":"And we're going to look at the"},{"startTime":904.02,"endTime":906.78,"body":"process of jury selection later"},{"startTime":906.78,"endTime":908.25,"body":"and see how this differs"},{"startTime":908.25,"endTime":912.873,"body":"from our better known"},{"startTime":908.25,"endTime":912.873,"body":"American counterparts."},{"startTime":914.22,"endTime":917.04,"body":"So, what does a jury actually do?"},{"startTime":917.04,"endTime":918.225,"body":"In England and Wales,"},{"startTime":918.225,"endTime":920.7,"body":"the role of the jury in a"},{"startTime":918.225,"endTime":920.7,"body":"criminal trial is simply to find"},{"startTime":920.7,"endTime":924.063,"body":"whether what the defendant"},{"startTime":920.7,"endTime":924.063,"body":"is guilty or not guilty."},{"startTime":925.08,"endTime":927.316,"body":"The jury has no role in sentencing,"},{"startTime":927.316,"endTime":930.24,"body":"which is entirely the"},{"startTime":927.316,"endTime":930.24,"body":"province of the judge."},{"startTime":930.24,"endTime":931.83,"body":"The judge also exerts control"},{"startTime":931.83,"endTime":934.29,"body":"over the proceedings in a"},{"startTime":931.83,"endTime":934.29,"body":"number of different ways."},{"startTime":934.29,"endTime":936.99,"body":"The judge decides whether"},{"startTime":934.29,"endTime":936.99,"body":"the evidence is admissible"},{"startTime":936.99,"endTime":940.821,"body":"and therefore whether it"},{"startTime":936.99,"endTime":940.821,"body":"should be put before a jury."},{"startTime":940.821,"endTime":945.821,"body":"The judge decides the directions"},{"startTime":940.821,"endTime":945.821,"body":"on law to give to a jury"},{"startTime":946.223,"endTime":948.354,"body":"and also sums up the evidence"},{"startTime":948.354,"endTime":952.74,"body":"before the jury retire"},{"startTime":948.354,"endTime":952.74,"body":"to reach their verdict."},{"startTime":952.74,"endTime":954.78,"body":"And jurors are subject to punishment"},{"startTime":954.78,"endTime":958.8,"body":"for contempt if they act"},{"startTime":954.78,"endTime":958.8,"body":"improperly, for example,"},{"startTime":958.8,"endTime":960.66,"body":"discussing the case on social media"},{"startTime":960.66,"endTime":964.08,"body":"or researching information"},{"startTime":960.66,"endTime":964.08,"body":"about the case on the internet."},{"startTime":964.08,"endTime":965.193,"body":"It remains the case, however,"},{"startTime":965.193,"endTime":967.77,"body":"that the judge cannot compel the jury"},{"startTime":967.77,"endTime":971.425,"body":"to convict the defendant"},{"startTime":967.77,"endTime":971.425,"body":"against their wishes."},{"startTime":971.425,"endTime":976.425,"body":"It is for the jury not the"},{"startTime":971.425,"endTime":976.425,"body":"judge to decide upon the guilt."},{"startTime":977.01,"endTime":979.699,"body":"The juries, as it's been"},{"startTime":977.01,"endTime":979.699,"body":"said in many criminal cases,"},{"startTime":979.699,"endTime":981.363,"body":"are the judges of fact."},{"startTime":982.92,"endTime":986.28,"body":"And finally, we need to"},{"startTime":982.92,"endTime":986.28,"body":"understand the alternatives,"},{"startTime":986.28,"endTime":988.5,"body":"available alternatives to a jury trial."},{"startTime":988.5,"endTime":990.42,"body":"Most civil trials in England today"},{"startTime":990.42,"endTime":994.403,"body":"are decided by either a"},{"startTime":990.42,"endTime":994.403,"body":"professional judge sitting alone"},{"startTime":994.403,"endTime":997.29,"body":"or occasionally with a professional judge"},{"startTime":997.29,"endTime":999.75,"body":"sitting with expert assessors."},{"startTime":999.75,"endTime":1002.384,"body":"Most criminal trials in the magistrates"},{"startTime":1002.384,"endTime":1006.59,"body":"are decided either by a"},{"startTime":1002.384,"endTime":1006.59,"body":"lay bench of magistrates"},{"startTime":1006.59,"endTime":1009.56,"body":"who are volunteer from the local community"},{"startTime":1009.56,"endTime":1011.194,"body":"and not legally qualified."},{"startTime":1011.194,"endTime":1016.194,"body":"And they're assisted by a"},{"startTime":1011.194,"endTime":1016.194,"body":"legally qualified clerk."},{"startTime":1017.57,"endTime":1019.61,"body":"A minority of magistrate trials"},{"startTime":1019.61,"endTime":1022.8,"body":"are decided by a professional judge"},{"startTime":1025.885,"endTime":1027.32,"body":"who sits"},{"startTime":1027.32,"endTime":1031.613,"body":"on his or her own alternatives."},{"startTime":1033.599,"endTime":1037.64,"body":"Now, we understand the role of the jury."},{"startTime":1037.64,"endTime":1041.15,"body":"What are the available"},{"startTime":1037.64,"endTime":1041.15,"body":"alternatives to them?"},{"startTime":1041.15,"endTime":1044.783,"body":"Let's turn our first key question."},{"startTime":1046.13,"endTime":1048.743,"body":"Are juries biased?"},{"startTime":1049.76,"endTime":1053.87,"body":"And for this question, I'm"},{"startTime":1049.76,"endTime":1053.87,"body":"going to focus on racial bias,"},{"startTime":1053.87,"endTime":1056.81,"body":"not because it's the only form of bias,"},{"startTime":1056.81,"endTime":1060.35,"body":"but it's the one that's"},{"startTime":1056.81,"endTime":1060.35,"body":"been studied the most."},{"startTime":1060.35,"endTime":1063.09,"body":"The first thing that we want to look at"},{"startTime":1064.991,"endTime":1068.42,"body":"in racial biases in jury selection,"},{"startTime":1068.42,"endTime":1070.715,"body":"and in this regard, it's"},{"startTime":1068.42,"endTime":1070.715,"body":"interesting to contrast"},{"startTime":1070.715,"endTime":1075.715,"body":"the English and Wales system"},{"startTime":1070.715,"endTime":1075.715,"body":"with the system in the US."},{"startTime":1077.815,"endTime":1079.28,"body":"So, jury selection,"},{"startTime":1079.28,"endTime":1084.28,"body":"the practice of allowing"},{"startTime":1079.28,"endTime":1084.28,"body":"peremptory challenges to jurors"},{"startTime":1084.359,"endTime":1089.359,"body":"where either party can reject"},{"startTime":1084.359,"endTime":1089.359,"body":"a certain number of jurors"},{"startTime":1089.66,"endTime":1093.83,"body":"without providing cause was"},{"startTime":1089.66,"endTime":1093.83,"body":"abolished in England and Wales"},{"startTime":1093.83,"endTime":1097.61,"body":"by the Criminal Justice Act 1988."},{"startTime":1097.61,"endTime":1100.79,"body":"This contrast with the US system"},{"startTime":1100.79,"endTime":1104.24,"body":"where peremptory challenges"},{"startTime":1100.79,"endTime":1104.24,"body":"to jurors are still allowed"},{"startTime":1104.24,"endTime":1107.81,"body":"in federal courts and in"},{"startTime":1104.24,"endTime":1107.81,"body":"the courts of most states."},{"startTime":1107.81,"endTime":1111.56,"body":"And what I mean by that is in this country"},{"startTime":1111.56,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"used to have three three"},{"startTime":1111.56,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"preemptive challenges"},{"startTime":1114.68,"endTime":1116.57,"body":"to a juror from the jury pool."},{"startTime":1116.57,"endTime":1119.54,"body":"They would come in and (chuckles)"},{"startTime":1119.54,"endTime":1122.753,"body":"I remember when I was training,"},{"startTime":1124.1,"endTime":1127.667,"body":"my supervisor would say,"},{"startTime":1124.1,"endTime":1127.667,"body":"\"Don't look that person.\""},{"startTime":1128.63,"endTime":1130.85,"body":"No rhyme or reason to it."},{"startTime":1130.85,"endTime":1133.17,"body":"Somebody could walked into court with"},{"startTime":1134.689,"endTime":1138.74,"body":"a copy of the \"Daily"},{"startTime":1134.689,"endTime":1138.74,"body":"Mail\" under his or her arm"},{"startTime":1138.74,"endTime":1141.23,"body":"and they would be rejected or accepted"},{"startTime":1141.23,"endTime":1143.873,"body":"depending on the case that"},{"startTime":1141.23,"endTime":1143.873,"body":"you were dealing with."},{"startTime":1144.74,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"And nobody could challenge the pre..."},{"startTime":1148.46,"endTime":1151.253,"body":"You had a right to preemptive challenges."},{"startTime":1152.84,"endTime":1155.1,"body":"Now, you can only challenge"},{"startTime":1156.5,"endTime":1158.69,"body":"if there is a cause."},{"startTime":1158.69,"endTime":1160.493,"body":"So, for instance, if a juror,"},{"startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1164.69,"body":"if you know that a juror"},{"startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1164.69,"body":"is biased in some way,"},{"startTime":1164.69,"endTime":1168.623,"body":"knows a witness or knows the defendant."},{"startTime":1169.46,"endTime":1170.36,"body":"Although the crown"},{"startTime":1170.36,"endTime":1173.33,"body":"retains a traditional"},{"startTime":1170.36,"endTime":1173.33,"body":"right to stand by a juror,"},{"startTime":1173.33,"endTime":1176.21,"body":"the attorney general guidelines"},{"startTime":1173.33,"endTime":1176.21,"body":"on use of standby powers"},{"startTime":1176.21,"endTime":1179.24,"body":"made it clear that it was"},{"startTime":1176.21,"endTime":1179.24,"body":"only to be used exceptionally"},{"startTime":1179.24,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"and only in national security"},{"startTime":1179.24,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"or in terrorism cases."},{"startTime":1182.9,"endTime":1186.173,"body":"So, that in practice, the"},{"startTime":1182.9,"endTime":1186.173,"body":"use of that power is rare."},{"startTime":1187.43,"endTime":1190.218,"body":"Compare that with the American experience."},{"startTime":1190.218,"endTime":1195.218,"body":"So, as I've just indicated"},{"startTime":1190.218,"endTime":1195.218,"body":"today in this country,"},{"startTime":1195.59,"endTime":1196.913,"body":"this jurisdiction,"},{"startTime":1199.799,"endTime":1203.84,"body":"parties have less ability"},{"startTime":1199.799,"endTime":1203.84,"body":"to influence the composition"},{"startTime":1203.84,"endTime":1206.96,"body":"of the jury than in an"},{"startTime":1203.84,"endTime":1206.96,"body":"American jury trial."},{"startTime":1206.96,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"However, both the prosecution"},{"startTime":1206.96,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"defendant, as I say,"},{"startTime":1210.32,"endTime":1212.99,"body":"do have the right to challenge for cause."},{"startTime":1212.99,"endTime":1216.32,"body":"And a judge does has a"},{"startTime":1212.99,"endTime":1216.32,"body":"discretion to stand a juror down,"},{"startTime":1216.32,"endTime":1219.2,"body":"for example, if there"},{"startTime":1216.32,"endTime":1219.2,"body":"is an appearance of bias"},{"startTime":1219.2,"endTime":1223.853,"body":"or because a juror may"},{"startTime":1219.2,"endTime":1223.853,"body":"not be competent to serve."},{"startTime":1225.08,"endTime":1228.023,"body":"Up until the late 1980s,"},{"startTime":1228.023,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"English judges did occasionally"},{"startTime":1228.023,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"use their discretion"},{"startTime":1231.38,"endTime":1233.81,"body":"to discharge jurors in such a way"},{"startTime":1233.81,"endTime":1236.933,"body":"to ensure that juries were multiracial."},{"startTime":1238.04,"endTime":1242.34,"body":"However, the court of appeal"},{"startTime":1238.04,"endTime":1242.34,"body":"in a case called Ford in 1989"},{"startTime":1243.32,"endTime":1247.7,"body":"held that a judge had no power to do so."},{"startTime":1247.7,"endTime":1252.02,"body":"So, a defendant of color has no right"},{"startTime":1252.02,"endTime":1253.91,"body":"to be tried"},{"startTime":1253.91,"endTime":1257.731,"body":"by a racially represented"},{"startTime":1257.731,"endTime":1261.23,"body":"or racially representative jury."},{"startTime":1261.23,"endTime":1264.65,"body":"So, let's look at bias in jury selection."},{"startTime":1264.65,"endTime":1268.19,"body":"In the United States,"},{"startTime":1264.65,"endTime":1268.19,"body":"this is a familiar subject"},{"startTime":1268.19,"endTime":1272.18,"body":"in its 2021 report, Race and the Jury,"},{"startTime":1272.18,"endTime":1274.85,"body":"illegal discrimination and jury selection."},{"startTime":1274.85,"endTime":1278.12,"body":"The Equal Justice"},{"startTime":1274.85,"endTime":1278.12,"body":"Initiative highlights data"},{"startTime":1278.12,"endTime":1281.63,"body":"from a range of American"},{"startTime":1278.12,"endTime":1281.63,"body":"federal and state courts"},{"startTime":1281.63,"endTime":1286.63,"body":"shown evidence of disparity in"},{"startTime":1281.63,"endTime":1286.63,"body":"all stages of jury selection."},{"startTime":1287.72,"endTime":1292.72,"body":"Many American jury pools"},{"startTime":1287.72,"endTime":1292.72,"body":"underrepresent people of color."},{"startTime":1293.15,"endTime":1297.23,"body":"And both peremptory challenges"},{"startTime":1293.15,"endTime":1297.23,"body":"and challenges for cause"},{"startTime":1297.23,"endTime":1300.11,"body":"are often used disproportionately"},{"startTime":1300.11,"endTime":1303.41,"body":"to exclude Black jurors"},{"startTime":1300.11,"endTime":1303.41,"body":"and jurors of color."},{"startTime":1303.41,"endTime":1305.36,"body":"Although racial discrimination"},{"startTime":1305.36,"endTime":1309.32,"body":"in jury selection is"},{"startTime":1305.36,"endTime":1309.32,"body":"theoretically illegal,"},{"startTime":1309.32,"endTime":1313.25,"body":"the Equal Justice Initiative"},{"startTime":1309.32,"endTime":1313.25,"body":"argues that the legal tests"},{"startTime":1313.25,"endTime":1315.92,"body":"laid down by the appellate"},{"startTime":1313.25,"endTime":1315.92,"body":"courts have made it difficult"},{"startTime":1315.92,"endTime":1317.468,"body":"to prove racial bias,"},{"startTime":1317.468,"endTime":1321.11,"body":"and there continues to be"},{"startTime":1317.468,"endTime":1321.11,"body":"a massive race disparity"},{"startTime":1321.11,"endTime":1323.12,"body":"at every stage in the process."},{"startTime":1323.12,"endTime":1325.88,"body":"It also reviews evidence"},{"startTime":1323.12,"endTime":1325.88,"body":"from the American studies"},{"startTime":1325.88,"endTime":1328.1,"body":"suggesting that all White juries"},{"startTime":1328.1,"endTime":1331.283,"body":"are biased against Black defendants."},{"startTime":1332.382,"endTime":1334.61,"body":"But as we have seen,"},{"startTime":1334.61,"endTime":1336.62,"body":"we can't just read those findings"},{"startTime":1336.62,"endTime":1338.72,"body":"across to England and Wales,"},{"startTime":1338.72,"endTime":1341.27,"body":"and assume that they apply here,"},{"startTime":1341.27,"endTime":1343.703,"body":"because our juries are very different."},{"startTime":1346.01,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"That brings me on to"},{"startTime":1346.01,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"Professor Cheryl Thomas."},{"startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1355.48,"body":"So, let's turn to the"},{"startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1355.48,"body":"English data or data."},{"startTime":1356.09,"endTime":1359.907,"body":"We're going to look at"},{"startTime":1356.09,"endTime":1359.907,"body":"Cheryl Thomas' 2007 study,"},{"startTime":1359.907,"endTime":1362.927,"body":"\"Diversity and Fairness"},{"startTime":1359.907,"endTime":1362.927,"body":"in the Jury System\"."},{"startTime":1364.01,"endTime":1366.29,"body":"For the purposes of discussing this study,"},{"startTime":1366.29,"endTime":1370.19,"body":"I'm going to adopt Thomas' own terminology"},{"startTime":1370.19,"endTime":1371.96,"body":"when discussing race,"},{"startTime":1371.96,"endTime":1375.114,"body":"including the use of the umbrella term,"},{"startTime":1375.114,"endTime":1378.41,"body":"Black and minority ethnic."},{"startTime":1378.41,"endTime":1379.91,"body":"Not a term that I would use,"},{"startTime":1379.91,"endTime":1383.36,"body":"but that's the term that she uses,"},{"startTime":1383.36,"endTime":1386.78,"body":"in order to accurately"},{"startTime":1383.36,"endTime":1386.78,"body":"represent what the study shows."},{"startTime":1386.78,"endTime":1389.13,"body":"I should say that"},{"startTime":1390.2,"endTime":1392.06,"body":"this study approached the question of jury"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1394.631,"body":"diversity and fairness"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1394.631,"body":"in a number of ways."},{"startTime":1394.631,"endTime":1396.83,"body":"It has a number of interesting findings,"},{"startTime":1396.83,"endTime":1399.68,"body":"which I can't cover"},{"startTime":1396.83,"endTime":1399.68,"body":"comprehensively in this lecture,"},{"startTime":1399.68,"endTime":1402.23,"body":"but I'm going to highlight"},{"startTime":1399.68,"endTime":1402.23,"body":"a few headline points"},{"startTime":1402.23,"endTime":1406.13,"body":"that are important for our purposes."},{"startTime":1406.13,"endTime":1408.35,"body":"Now, Thomas studied all stages"},{"startTime":1408.35,"endTime":1410.211,"body":"of the jury selection process"},{"startTime":1410.211,"endTime":1414.38,"body":"in her study of 84 Crown Courts."},{"startTime":1414.38,"endTime":1416.06,"body":"In all but two courts,"},{"startTime":1416.06,"endTime":1418.96,"body":"there were no statistically"},{"startTime":1416.06,"endTime":1418.96,"body":"significant difference"},{"startTime":1418.96,"endTime":1421.19,"body":"between the proportion of Black"},{"startTime":1421.19,"endTime":1423.86,"body":"and minority ethnic jurors summoned,"},{"startTime":1423.86,"endTime":1425.51,"body":"and Black and minority"},{"startTime":1423.86,"endTime":1425.51,"body":"(attendee coughing)"},{"startTime":1425.51,"endTime":1428.933,"body":"ethnic population in the"},{"startTime":1425.51,"endTime":1428.933,"body":"court catchment area."},{"startTime":1429.92,"endTime":1432.38,"body":"There was also no evidence of disparity"},{"startTime":1432.38,"endTime":1435.023,"body":"when broken down by ethnic group."},{"startTime":1436.43,"endTime":1438.38,"body":"However, she did highlight"},{"startTime":1438.38,"endTime":1442.1,"body":"that for the majority of"},{"startTime":1438.38,"endTime":1442.1,"body":"Crown Courts in the country,"},{"startTime":1442.1,"endTime":1444.74,"body":"the Black and minority ethnic population"},{"startTime":1444.74,"endTime":1448.13,"body":"in the court catchment area is below 10%,"},{"startTime":1448.13,"endTime":1451.88,"body":"which means in practice"},{"startTime":1448.13,"endTime":1451.88,"body":"there is little likelihood"},{"startTime":1451.88,"endTime":1453.74,"body":"of Black or minority ethnic jurors"},{"startTime":1453.74,"endTime":1457.76,"body":"serving on juries at these courts."},{"startTime":1457.76,"endTime":1461.33,"body":"In other words, all White juries"},{"startTime":1461.33,"endTime":1463.623,"body":"tend to happen in at these courts,"},{"startTime":1463.623,"endTime":1466.58,"body":"not because the selection process is bias,"},{"startTime":1466.58,"endTime":1468.83,"body":"but simply because of the demographics"},{"startTime":1468.83,"endTime":1470.648,"body":"of the local population."},{"startTime":1470.648,"endTime":1473.3,"body":"She also highlighted"},{"startTime":1473.3,"endTime":1476.93,"body":"however, that some courts"},{"startTime":1473.3,"endTime":1476.93,"body":"with an overall low population"},{"startTime":1476.93,"endTime":1479.102,"body":"of Black and minority ethnic people"},{"startTime":1479.102,"endTime":1482.36,"body":"did have high concentrations"},{"startTime":1482.36,"endTime":1486.62,"body":"of ethnic minorities in some"},{"startTime":1482.36,"endTime":1486.62,"body":"parts of their catchment areas."},{"startTime":1486.62,"endTime":1489.14,"body":"So, in these areas, a person of color"},{"startTime":1489.14,"endTime":1493.73,"body":"might well end up being"},{"startTime":1489.14,"endTime":1493.73,"body":"tried by an all White jury,"},{"startTime":1493.73,"endTime":1497.33,"body":"not because the summons"},{"startTime":1493.73,"endTime":1497.33,"body":"in process was biased,"},{"startTime":1497.33,"endTime":1499.933,"body":"but again because the overall demographics"},{"startTime":1499.933,"endTime":1503.723,"body":"of the court catchment area."},{"startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1507.65,"body":"Among those who didn't"},{"startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1507.65,"body":"respond to jury summonses,"},{"startTime":1507.65,"endTime":1510.5,"body":"she didn't find evidence that the courts"},{"startTime":1510.5,"endTime":1514.07,"body":"with a higher Black and"},{"startTime":1510.5,"endTime":1514.07,"body":"minority ethnic population"},{"startTime":1514.07,"endTime":1517.55,"body":"had a higher non-response rate."},{"startTime":1517.55,"endTime":1520.601,"body":"So, there was no evidence"},{"startTime":1517.55,"endTime":1520.601,"body":"that people of color"},{"startTime":1520.601,"endTime":1523.94,"body":"were any less likely to"},{"startTime":1520.601,"endTime":1523.94,"body":"respond to a jury summons."},{"startTime":1523.94,"endTime":1526.37,"body":"She decided to look at who"},{"startTime":1526.37,"endTime":1528.71,"body":"were actually being"},{"startTime":1526.37,"endTime":1528.71,"body":"selected to serve on juries"},{"startTime":1528.71,"endTime":1530.87,"body":"as opposed to being"},{"startTime":1528.71,"endTime":1530.87,"body":"disqualified or excused."},{"startTime":1530.87,"endTime":1533.36,"body":"And she found that in most"},{"startTime":1530.87,"endTime":1533.36,"body":"of the 84 Crown Courts,"},{"startTime":1533.36,"endTime":1535.73,"body":"the proportion of Black"},{"startTime":1533.36,"endTime":1535.73,"body":"and minority ethnic people"},{"startTime":1535.73,"endTime":1538.04,"body":"serving on juries was generally consistent"},{"startTime":1538.04,"endTime":1540.62,"body":"with the proportion of Black"},{"startTime":1538.04,"endTime":1540.62,"body":"and minority ethnic people"},{"startTime":1540.62,"endTime":1542.72,"body":"in the court's catchment area."},{"startTime":1542.72,"endTime":1545.72,"body":"There are only three Crown"},{"startTime":1542.72,"endTime":1545.72,"body":"Courts where minority,"},{"startTime":1545.72,"endTime":1548.54,"body":"Black, and ethnic people"},{"startTime":1548.54,"endTime":1551.663,"body":"were significantly underrepresented."},{"startTime":1555.47,"endTime":1560.15,"body":"In addition to analyzing"},{"startTime":1555.47,"endTime":1560.15,"body":"the jury selection process,"},{"startTime":1560.15,"endTime":1562.67,"body":"she also carried out a"},{"startTime":1560.15,"endTime":1562.67,"body":"case simulation study"},{"startTime":1562.67,"endTime":1564.11,"body":"using real jurors"},{"startTime":1564.11,"endTime":1566.78,"body":"summons to Blackfriars Crown Court,"},{"startTime":1566.78,"endTime":1568.43,"body":"selected in the same manner"},{"startTime":1568.43,"endTime":1570.699,"body":"that a real jury would be selected."},{"startTime":1570.699,"endTime":1574.97,"body":"The case which was based on a real case,"},{"startTime":1574.97,"endTime":1576.26,"body":"involved a male defendant"},{"startTime":1576.26,"endTime":1578.488,"body":"accused of punching a"},{"startTime":1576.26,"endTime":1578.488,"body":"male victim in the face"},{"startTime":1578.488,"endTime":1581.799,"body":"after confrontation outside a bar."},{"startTime":1581.799,"endTime":1584.48,"body":"The case was won in which the real life"},{"startTime":1584.48,"endTime":1586.97,"body":"had resulted in a hung jury."},{"startTime":1586.97,"endTime":1589.978,"body":"The facts of the case were kept"},{"startTime":1586.97,"endTime":1589.978,"body":"the same in each simulation,"},{"startTime":1589.978,"endTime":1594.833,"body":"but the race of the defendant"},{"startTime":1589.978,"endTime":1594.833,"body":"and the victim were varied,"},{"startTime":1596.21,"endTime":1599.06,"body":"Black, White, or Asian."},{"startTime":1599.06,"endTime":1600.41,"body":"And in some simulations,"},{"startTime":1600.41,"endTime":1602.06,"body":"the defendant was charged simply"},{"startTime":1602.06,"endTime":1605.66,"body":"with assault occasion"},{"startTime":1602.06,"endTime":1605.66,"body":"and actual bodily harm."},{"startTime":1605.66,"endTime":1607.07,"body":"While in others, he was charged"},{"startTime":1607.07,"endTime":1610.76,"body":"with racially aggravated"},{"startTime":1607.07,"endTime":1610.76,"body":"actual bodily harm."},{"startTime":1610.76,"endTime":1615.71,"body":"Thomas found that in the"},{"startTime":1610.76,"endTime":1615.71,"body":"54 separate jury decisions"},{"startTime":1615.71,"endTime":1619.07,"body":"in the study, outcomes for defendants"},{"startTime":1619.07,"endTime":1621.971,"body":"were remarkably similar"},{"startTime":1619.07,"endTime":1621.971,"body":"regardless of race,"},{"startTime":1621.971,"endTime":1624.56,"body":"whether Asian, Black, or White."},{"startTime":1624.56,"endTime":1627.53,"body":"The defendants were almost"},{"startTime":1624.56,"endTime":1627.53,"body":"always found not guilty"},{"startTime":1627.53,"endTime":1631.403,"body":"by a majority verdict or the"},{"startTime":1627.53,"endTime":1631.403,"body":"outcome was a hung verdict."},{"startTime":1632.27,"endTime":1635.39,"body":"So, there were some racial disparities"},{"startTime":1635.39,"endTime":1637.07,"body":"which that emerged in relation"},{"startTime":1637.07,"endTime":1639.38,"body":"to how individual jurors voted,"},{"startTime":1639.38,"endTime":1641.51,"body":"but these did not result"},{"startTime":1641.51,"endTime":1646.163,"body":"in any racial disparity in"},{"startTime":1641.51,"endTime":1646.163,"body":"the overall jury verdict."},{"startTime":1650.39,"endTime":1652.37,"body":"Thomas carried out a second study"},{"startTime":1652.37,"endTime":1656.93,"body":"in 2010 entitled, \"Are Juries Fair?\""},{"startTime":1656.93,"endTime":1660.71,"body":"And in this study, Thomas"},{"startTime":1656.93,"endTime":1660.71,"body":"ran the same case simulation,"},{"startTime":1660.71,"endTime":1662.453,"body":"but this time, at two courts"},{"startTime":1662.453,"endTime":1665.75,"body":"with a mostly White catchment area,"},{"startTime":1665.75,"endTime":1667.43,"body":"Nottingham and Winchester."},{"startTime":1667.43,"endTime":1669.77,"body":"And she found that the all"},{"startTime":1667.43,"endTime":1669.77,"body":"White juries in this study"},{"startTime":1669.77,"endTime":1672.44,"body":"were not more likely to convict a Black"},{"startTime":1672.44,"endTime":1675.32,"body":"or minority ethnic person"},{"startTime":1672.44,"endTime":1675.32,"body":"than a White defendant."},{"startTime":1675.32,"endTime":1679.76,"body":"And this held true for both"},{"startTime":1675.32,"endTime":1679.76,"body":"Black and Asian defendant."},{"startTime":1679.76,"endTime":1682.01,"body":"Interestingly, she also"},{"startTime":1679.76,"endTime":1682.01,"body":"found in Nottingham"},{"startTime":1682.01,"endTime":1685.19,"body":"a relatively more racially diverse area,"},{"startTime":1685.19,"endTime":1687.59,"body":"jurors had more difficulty"},{"startTime":1685.19,"endTime":1687.59,"body":"reaching a verdict"},{"startTime":1687.59,"endTime":1690.89,"body":"when a case involved a Black"},{"startTime":1687.59,"endTime":1690.89,"body":"or minority ethnic defendant"},{"startTime":1690.89,"endTime":1692.3,"body":"or victim as opposed"},{"startTime":1692.3,"endTime":1696.08,"body":"to when it involved"},{"startTime":1692.3,"endTime":1696.08,"body":"only White participants."},{"startTime":1696.08,"endTime":1697.868,"body":"But the same was not true in Winchester,"},{"startTime":1697.868,"endTime":1699.809,"body":"a less diverse area."},{"startTime":1699.809,"endTime":1703.7,"body":"Another interest in finding"},{"startTime":1699.809,"endTime":1703.7,"body":"was that jurors in Nottingham"},{"startTime":1703.7,"endTime":1705.17,"body":"were significantly more likely"},{"startTime":1705.17,"endTime":1706.91,"body":"to convict the White defendant"},{"startTime":1706.91,"endTime":1709.64,"body":"when he was accused of assaulting a Black"},{"startTime":1709.64,"endTime":1711.71,"body":"or minority ethnic victim"},{"startTime":1711.71,"endTime":1715.19,"body":"than when he was accused of"},{"startTime":1711.71,"endTime":1715.19,"body":"assaulting a White victim."},{"startTime":1715.19,"endTime":1719.39,"body":"But again, no similar pattern"},{"startTime":1715.19,"endTime":1719.39,"body":"was seen in Winchester."},{"startTime":1719.39,"endTime":1720.65,"body":"Paul was in here."},{"startTime":1720.65,"endTime":1724.61,"body":"This methodology has"},{"startTime":1720.65,"endTime":1724.61,"body":"two obvious limitations."},{"startTime":1724.61,"endTime":1727.443,"body":"Firstly, it's possible that jurors"},{"startTime":1727.443,"endTime":1730.797,"body":"who know that they are"},{"startTime":1727.443,"endTime":1730.797,"body":"participating in a study"},{"startTime":1730.797,"endTime":1735.26,"body":"might be less inclined"},{"startTime":1730.797,"endTime":1735.26,"body":"to display racial bias"},{"startTime":1735.26,"endTime":1740.26,"body":"than jurors in a real case"},{"startTime":1735.26,"endTime":1740.26,"body":"whose deliberations are secret."},{"startTime":1740.3,"endTime":1742.79,"body":"Secondly, Thomas' case simulation"},{"startTime":1742.79,"endTime":1746.78,"body":"concerns a case that resulted"},{"startTime":1742.79,"endTime":1746.78,"body":"in a hung jury in real life,"},{"startTime":1746.78,"endTime":1748.89,"body":"meaning that it may not be representative"},{"startTime":1748.89,"endTime":1752.003,"body":"of most cases that come before the courts."},{"startTime":1754.801,"endTime":1758.48,"body":"That said, Thomas' 2010"},{"startTime":1754.801,"endTime":1758.48,"body":"study also carried out"},{"startTime":1758.48,"endTime":1760.853,"body":"a large scale analysis of jury verdicts."},{"startTime":1763.53,"endTime":1765.11,"body":"She looked at all cases"},{"startTime":1763.53,"endTime":1765.11,"body":"in all Crown Courts"},{"startTime":1765.11,"endTime":1768.419,"body":"in England and Welstrom"},{"startTime":1765.11,"endTime":1768.419,"body":"the 1st of October, 2006,"},{"startTime":1768.419,"endTime":1770.84,"body":"so the 31st of March, 2008,"},{"startTime":1770.84,"endTime":1773.75,"body":"including over half a million charges."},{"startTime":1773.75,"endTime":1776.323,"body":"The data showed that"},{"startTime":1773.75,"endTime":1776.323,"body":"White and Asian defendants"},{"startTime":1776.323,"endTime":1780.184,"body":"both had a 63% jury conviction rate"},{"startTime":1780.184,"endTime":1784.58,"body":"while Black defendants had"},{"startTime":1780.184,"endTime":1784.58,"body":"a 67% jury conviction rate."},{"startTime":1784.58,"endTime":1787.37,"body":"And Thomas described these"},{"startTime":1784.58,"endTime":1787.37,"body":"as a small difference,"},{"startTime":1787.37,"endTime":1789.2,"body":"although it was notable"},{"startTime":1787.37,"endTime":1789.2,"body":"that Black defendants"},{"startTime":1789.2,"endTime":1791.513,"body":"were slightly more likely to be convicted."},{"startTime":1793.79,"endTime":1796.4,"body":"That brings me onto the Lammy review."},{"startTime":1796.4,"endTime":1799.13,"body":"That's David Lammy, MP."},{"startTime":1799.13,"endTime":1800.399,"body":"For the Lammy review,"},{"startTime":1800.399,"endTime":1803.81,"body":"Thomas' research was"},{"startTime":1800.399,"endTime":1803.81,"body":"updated with an analysis"},{"startTime":1803.81,"endTime":1808.81,"body":"of 390,000 jury decisions"},{"startTime":1803.81,"endTime":1808.81,"body":"between 2006 and 2014."},{"startTime":1810.35,"endTime":1812.78,"body":"And again, this found a"},{"startTime":1810.35,"endTime":1812.78,"body":"very similar conviction rate"},{"startTime":1812.78,"endTime":1815.6,"body":"across the ethnic groups,"},{"startTime":1812.78,"endTime":1815.6,"body":"White, Black, Asian,"},{"startTime":1815.6,"endTime":1817.93,"body":"mixed race defendants were all convicted"},{"startTime":1817.93,"endTime":1822.93,"body":"at rates of between 66 to 68%."},{"startTime":1822.95,"endTime":1825.47,"body":"David Lammy was very"},{"startTime":1822.95,"endTime":1825.47,"body":"enthusiastic about this"},{"startTime":1825.47,"endTime":1828.807,"body":"and his report calls juries, quote,"},{"startTime":1828.807,"endTime":1833.21,"body":"\"A success story for our justice system.\""},{"startTime":1833.21,"endTime":1834.98,"body":"The Lammy review contrasted juries"},{"startTime":1834.98,"endTime":1836.663,"body":"with judges and magistrates."},{"startTime":1836.663,"endTime":1841.34,"body":"Lammy cites 2016 study by Hopkins et al,"},{"startTime":1841.34,"endTime":1842.84,"body":"which looked at racial disparity"},{"startTime":1842.84,"endTime":1845.78,"body":"in the Crown Court judges"},{"startTime":1842.84,"endTime":1845.78,"body":"sentencing decisions."},{"startTime":1845.78,"endTime":1847.01,"body":"And Hopkins et al,"},{"startTime":1847.01,"endTime":1849.826,"body":"found that under similar"},{"startTime":1847.01,"endTime":1849.826,"body":"criminal circumstances,"},{"startTime":1849.826,"endTime":1854.45,"body":"the odds of imprisonment for"},{"startTime":1849.826,"endTime":1854.45,"body":"Black, Asian, and Chinese,"},{"startTime":1854.45,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"and other offenders was higher"},{"startTime":1854.45,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"than for White offenders."},{"startTime":1858.29,"endTime":1861.29,"body":"The disparity varied a lot"},{"startTime":1861.29,"endTime":1863.27,"body":"between different offense types."},{"startTime":1863.27,"endTime":1865.67,"body":"It was particularly high for drug offenses"},{"startTime":1865.67,"endTime":1870.67,"body":"where Black and minority"},{"startTime":1865.67,"endTime":1870.67,"body":"ethnic offenders were 240%"},{"startTime":1871.1,"endTime":1873.47,"body":"more likely to be sent to prison."},{"startTime":1873.47,"endTime":1874.82,"body":"Let me repeat that."},{"startTime":1874.82,"endTime":1879.82,"body":"240% more likely to be sent to"},{"startTime":1874.82,"endTime":1879.82,"body":"prison than White offenders."},{"startTime":1880.97,"endTime":1882.2,"body":"Although the data was limited,"},{"startTime":1882.2,"endTime":1884.99,"body":"Lammy review also found racial disparities"},{"startTime":1884.99,"endTime":1886.91,"body":"in the magistrate court's verdicts."},{"startTime":1886.91,"endTime":1889.58,"body":"In particular, Black and"},{"startTime":1886.91,"endTime":1889.58,"body":"minority ethnic women"},{"startTime":1889.58,"endTime":1893.51,"body":"were more likely to be found"},{"startTime":1889.58,"endTime":1893.51,"body":"guilty than White women."},{"startTime":1893.51,"endTime":1895.1,"body":"So, Lammy's conclusions"},{"startTime":1895.1,"endTime":1898.43,"body":"about jury trials were"},{"startTime":1895.1,"endTime":1898.43,"body":"overwhelmingly positive."},{"startTime":1898.43,"endTime":1900.2,"body":"However, his approach to the issue"},{"startTime":1900.2,"endTime":1902.2,"body":"has been criticized, which I'll come to."},{"startTime":1904.22,"endTime":1906.59,"body":"One powerful criticism is this."},{"startTime":1906.59,"endTime":1909.68,"body":"We know that there's a massive"},{"startTime":1906.59,"endTime":1909.68,"body":"racial disproportionality"},{"startTime":1909.68,"endTime":1911.391,"body":"in terms of who ends up"},{"startTime":1911.391,"endTime":1914.57,"body":"in the criminal justice"},{"startTime":1911.391,"endTime":1914.57,"body":"system to start with."},{"startTime":1914.57,"endTime":1916.73,"body":"Black people are more likely to end up"},{"startTime":1916.73,"endTime":1919.4,"body":"before a jury than White people."},{"startTime":1919.4,"endTime":1922.916,"body":"As Thomas' self highlighted"},{"startTime":1919.4,"endTime":1922.916,"body":"in their 2007 study,"},{"startTime":1922.916,"endTime":1926.27,"body":"Black people from 2006 to 2008"},{"startTime":1926.27,"endTime":1930.5,"body":"made up 14% of all jury verdicts"},{"startTime":1930.5,"endTime":1934.673,"body":"compared to being only making"},{"startTime":1930.5,"endTime":1934.673,"body":"up 3% of the population."},{"startTime":1935.637,"endTime":1939.146,"body":"We could reasonably infer from this"},{"startTime":1939.146,"endTime":1941.87,"body":"that Black people are more likely"},{"startTime":1941.87,"endTime":1944.66,"body":"to be falsely accused of"},{"startTime":1941.87,"endTime":1944.66,"body":"crimes than White people."},{"startTime":1944.66,"endTime":1946.918,"body":"And therefore, we might expect"},{"startTime":1946.918,"endTime":1949.64,"body":"a genuinely fair trial process"},{"startTime":1949.64,"endTime":1953.54,"body":"to have a lower than"},{"startTime":1949.64,"endTime":1953.54,"body":"average conviction rate"},{"startTime":1953.54,"endTime":1957.443,"body":"for Black defendants rather"},{"startTime":1953.54,"endTime":1957.443,"body":"than a slightly higher one."},{"startTime":1958.31,"endTime":1960.71,"body":"Lee Bridges in his work"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1963.717,"body":"argues that the Lammy"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1963.717,"body":"reviews approach, quote,"},{"startTime":1963.717,"endTime":1966.2,"body":"\"Carries an implication"},{"startTime":1963.717,"endTime":1966.2,"body":"that those making decisions"},{"startTime":1966.2,"endTime":1969.17,"body":"at later stages in the"},{"startTime":1966.2,"endTime":1969.17,"body":"process have no role"},{"startTime":1969.17,"endTime":1973.13,"body":"or responsibility for seeking"},{"startTime":1969.17,"endTime":1973.13,"body":"to redress unfair treatment"},{"startTime":1973.13,"endTime":1977.043,"body":"of particular groups at earliest stages.\""},{"startTime":1977.043,"endTime":1979.01,"body":"There's also evidence"},{"startTime":1979.01,"endTime":1981.23,"body":"that Black and minority ethnic defendants"},{"startTime":1981.23,"endTime":1985.94,"body":"are more likely to plead not"},{"startTime":1981.23,"endTime":1985.94,"body":"guilty than White defendants."},{"startTime":1985.94,"endTime":1986.773,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1988.25,"endTime":1991.34,"body":"also, more likely to be committed"},{"startTime":1991.34,"endTime":1993.26,"body":"to the Crown Court for trial"},{"startTime":1993.26,"endTime":1996.68,"body":"if charged with an offense"},{"startTime":1993.26,"endTime":1996.68,"body":"that is tribal either way."},{"startTime":1996.68,"endTime":1999.05,"body":"This again complicates the picture,"},{"startTime":1999.05,"endTime":2001.715,"body":"because arguably, Thomas and Lammy"},{"startTime":2001.715,"endTime":2004.96,"body":"are not comparing like with like."},{"startTime":2004.96,"endTime":2007.454,"body":"So, more research is"},{"startTime":2004.96,"endTime":2007.454,"body":"needed in the subject."},{"startTime":2007.454,"endTime":2009.37,"body":"At this stage, we can't be certain"},{"startTime":2009.37,"endTime":2012.28,"body":"to what extent racial bias"},{"startTime":2009.37,"endTime":2012.28,"body":"affects jury verdicts."},{"startTime":2012.28,"endTime":2014.23,"body":"However, we can probably set least"},{"startTime":2014.23,"endTime":2017.68,"body":"there is more evidence of racial"},{"startTime":2014.23,"endTime":2017.68,"body":"bias on the part of judges"},{"startTime":2017.68,"endTime":2019.99,"body":"and magistrates than the part of juries."},{"startTime":2019.99,"endTime":2021.34,"body":"But it's also important to note"},{"startTime":2021.34,"endTime":2024.468,"body":"that racial bias isn't"},{"startTime":2021.34,"endTime":2024.468,"body":"the only kind of bias."},{"startTime":2024.468,"endTime":2029.44,"body":"For example, it's often alleged"},{"startTime":2024.468,"endTime":2029.44,"body":"that jury's gender biases"},{"startTime":2029.44,"endTime":2032.094,"body":"affect the outcomes of rape trials."},{"startTime":2032.094,"endTime":2034.69,"body":"In her 2010 study, Thomas argued"},{"startTime":2034.69,"endTime":2037.27,"body":"that there were"},{"startTime":2034.69,"endTime":2037.27,"body":"misconceptions in this area,"},{"startTime":2037.27,"endTime":2039.76,"body":"point to the fact that"},{"startTime":2037.27,"endTime":2039.76,"body":"other serious offenses"},{"startTime":2039.76,"endTime":2044.35,"body":"have lower conviction rates than rape."},{"startTime":2044.35,"endTime":2047.352,"body":"But her study certainly isn't"},{"startTime":2044.35,"endTime":2047.352,"body":"conclusive on this question,"},{"startTime":2047.352,"endTime":2049.684,"body":"nor do we know the extent,"},{"startTime":2049.684,"endTime":2054.684,"body":"to what extent juries are"},{"startTime":2049.684,"endTime":2054.684,"body":"bias against LGBT people."},{"startTime":2055.0,"endTime":2058.81,"body":"For instance, we don't know how"},{"startTime":2055.0,"endTime":2058.81,"body":"the current waiver hostility"},{"startTime":2058.81,"endTime":2061.18,"body":"towards transgender people in the UK"},{"startTime":2061.18,"endTime":2063.28,"body":"might affect jury behavior in cases"},{"startTime":2063.28,"endTime":2066.7,"body":"with transgender defendants or victims."},{"startTime":2066.7,"endTime":2069.13,"body":"But again, we shouldn't"},{"startTime":2066.7,"endTime":2069.13,"body":"assume without evidence"},{"startTime":2069.13,"endTime":2073.483,"body":"that professional judges are"},{"startTime":2069.13,"endTime":2073.483,"body":"any less biased than juries."},{"startTime":2074.77,"endTime":2078.283,"body":"So, are juries getting the right answers?"},{"startTime":2079.459,"endTime":2082.72,"body":"Bias is not the only"},{"startTime":2079.459,"endTime":2082.72,"body":"question we're interested in."},{"startTime":2082.72,"endTime":2084.67,"body":"As I said earlier, when a tribunal"},{"startTime":2084.67,"endTime":2086.677,"body":"is biased on the basis of race,"},{"startTime":2086.677,"endTime":2088.3,"body":"that's not the same question"},{"startTime":2088.3,"endTime":2090.52,"body":"as whether it's getting the answers right."},{"startTime":2090.52,"endTime":2094.18,"body":"The law reports reveal an instance in 1995"},{"startTime":2094.18,"endTime":2097.78,"body":"where a jury attempted to communicate"},{"startTime":2097.78,"endTime":2102.403,"body":"with one of the victims of the"},{"startTime":2097.78,"endTime":2102.403,"body":"offense with a Ouija board."},{"startTime":2104.383,"endTime":2107.5,"body":"And in another 1736 where the jury"},{"startTime":2107.5,"endTime":2112.5,"body":"decided their verdict by"},{"startTime":2107.5,"endTime":2112.5,"body":"hustling half a pens into a hat."},{"startTime":2112.57,"endTime":2116.53,"body":"To state the obvious, neither"},{"startTime":2112.57,"endTime":2116.53,"body":"of these methods is racist,"},{"startTime":2116.53,"endTime":2119.35,"body":"but both of them are unreliable."},{"startTime":2119.35,"endTime":2121.45,"body":"As I explained at the"},{"startTime":2119.35,"endTime":2121.45,"body":"beginning of this lecture,"},{"startTime":2121.45,"endTime":2124.78,"body":"there is no straightforward"},{"startTime":2121.45,"endTime":2124.78,"body":"way to measure empirically"},{"startTime":2124.78,"endTime":2127.03,"body":"whether juries are"},{"startTime":2124.78,"endTime":2127.03,"body":"getting the right answers."},{"startTime":2127.03,"endTime":2130.06,"body":"We have data on how many people"},{"startTime":2127.03,"endTime":2130.06,"body":"are aquitting and convicted."},{"startTime":2130.06,"endTime":2131.41,"body":"But to state the obvious,"},{"startTime":2131.41,"endTime":2133.66,"body":"we don't have data on how many people"},{"startTime":2133.66,"endTime":2137.35,"body":"are actually guilty or actually innocent."},{"startTime":2137.35,"endTime":2138.895,"body":"And unlike judges,"},{"startTime":2138.895,"endTime":2143.14,"body":"juries don't give reasons"},{"startTime":2138.895,"endTime":2143.14,"body":"for their decisions."},{"startTime":2143.14,"endTime":2146.71,"body":"They don't explain what"},{"startTime":2143.14,"endTime":2146.71,"body":"they've made of the evidence"},{"startTime":2146.71,"endTime":2148.48,"body":"or how they've reached their conclusions."},{"startTime":2148.48,"endTime":2150.55,"body":"So, when we're faced with a jury verdict,"},{"startTime":2150.55,"endTime":2152.74,"body":"we don't know whether"},{"startTime":2150.55,"endTime":2152.74,"body":"they've understood the law"},{"startTime":2152.74,"endTime":2153.97,"body":"or the evidence properly"},{"startTime":2153.97,"endTime":2157.0,"body":"or whether their reasons make sense"},{"startTime":2157.0,"endTime":2161.14,"body":"or whether their reasons are"},{"startTime":2157.0,"endTime":2161.14,"body":"based on false assumptions,"},{"startTime":2161.14,"endTime":2162.37,"body":"nor do we know"},{"startTime":2162.37,"endTime":2166.51,"body":"whether they fully understood"},{"startTime":2162.37,"endTime":2166.51,"body":"the judge's legal directions."},{"startTime":2166.51,"endTime":2171.1,"body":"Thomas' 2010 study, which"},{"startTime":2166.51,"endTime":2171.1,"body":"we've looked at earlier,"},{"startTime":2171.1,"endTime":2174.64,"body":"also investigated whether the"},{"startTime":2171.1,"endTime":2174.64,"body":"jurors in her case simulations"},{"startTime":2174.64,"endTime":2177.73,"body":"understood the legal directions"},{"startTime":2174.64,"endTime":2177.73,"body":"that they were given."},{"startTime":2177.73,"endTime":2180.1,"body":"She found that while most jurors"},{"startTime":2180.1,"endTime":2181.75,"body":"thought the judge's legal instructions"},{"startTime":2181.75,"endTime":2183.46,"body":"were easy to understand,"},{"startTime":2183.46,"endTime":2187.67,"body":"a majority in fact did not"},{"startTime":2183.46,"endTime":2187.67,"body":"completely understand them"},{"startTime":2188.59,"endTime":2193.59,"body":"in the terms used by the judge"},{"startTime":2188.59,"endTime":2193.59,"body":"in his or her instructions."},{"startTime":2194.89,"endTime":2197.11,"body":"For that matter, we don't know"},{"startTime":2197.11,"endTime":2199.3,"body":"whether juror's base their decisions"},{"startTime":2199.3,"endTime":2202.99,"body":"on whether they found"},{"startTime":2199.3,"endTime":2202.99,"body":"council more attractive"},{"startTime":2202.99,"endTime":2206.38,"body":"or whether they want to get"},{"startTime":2202.99,"endTime":2206.38,"body":"their deliberations over with"},{"startTime":2206.38,"endTime":2208.54,"body":"and just go to the pub."},{"startTime":2208.54,"endTime":2211.18,"body":"In her 2017"},{"startTime":2211.18,"endTime":2214.15,"body":"Blackstone lecture, Lady Justice Hallett"},{"startTime":2214.15,"endTime":2218.38,"body":"recounted a 2003 fraud"},{"startTime":2214.15,"endTime":2218.38,"body":"case at Suffolk Crown Court"},{"startTime":2218.38,"endTime":2223.38,"body":"where, quote, \" A female juror"},{"startTime":2218.38,"endTime":2223.38,"body":"sent to prosecuting counsel"},{"startTime":2224.02,"endTime":2227.8,"body":"a bottle of champagne and an"},{"startTime":2224.02,"endTime":2227.8,"body":"invitation to a dinner date"},{"startTime":2227.8,"endTime":2229.27,"body":"with the question,"},{"startTime":2229.27,"endTime":2231.92,"body":"'What does a lady need to"},{"startTime":2229.27,"endTime":2231.92,"body":"do to get your attention,'\""},{"startTime":2233.56,"endTime":2234.79,"body":"end quote."},{"startTime":2234.79,"endTime":2238.03,"body":"Another concern is whether"},{"startTime":2234.79,"endTime":2238.03,"body":"juries are influenced"},{"startTime":2238.03,"endTime":2241.51,"body":"by the unattractive facts"},{"startTime":2238.03,"endTime":2241.51,"body":"of a particular case."},{"startTime":2241.51,"endTime":2245.41,"body":"For example, a jury might"},{"startTime":2241.51,"endTime":2245.41,"body":"be thought to be more likely"},{"startTime":2245.41,"endTime":2249.075,"body":"to judge or be influenced"},{"startTime":2245.41,"endTime":2249.075,"body":"by adverse publicity"},{"startTime":2249.075,"endTime":2253.96,"body":"in a case involving a"},{"startTime":2249.075,"endTime":2253.96,"body":"high-profile case or defendant."},{"startTime":2253.96,"endTime":2257.683,"body":"In a case involving graphic sexual abuse,"},{"startTime":2258.79,"endTime":2262.54,"body":"abuse of a child, the"},{"startTime":2258.79,"endTime":2262.54,"body":"juror's feelings of disgust"},{"startTime":2262.54,"endTime":2265.42,"body":"may influence their decision-making,"},{"startTime":2265.42,"endTime":2268.69,"body":"or a jury might be"},{"startTime":2265.42,"endTime":2268.69,"body":"unimpressed by defendant"},{"startTime":2268.69,"endTime":2271.18,"body":"who's relying on a technical defense"},{"startTime":2271.18,"endTime":2273.19,"body":"to escape liability for the acts,"},{"startTime":2273.19,"endTime":2275.98,"body":"which the jury disapproves of."},{"startTime":2275.98,"endTime":2279.55,"body":"All these arguments are raised"},{"startTime":2275.98,"endTime":2279.55,"body":"by Professor Penny Darbyshire"},{"startTime":2279.55,"endTime":2283.88,"body":"who in a 2014 article, makes"},{"startTime":2279.55,"endTime":2283.88,"body":"a powerful argument that"},{"startTime":2285.34,"endTime":2290.2,"body":"defendants ought to be able"},{"startTime":2285.34,"endTime":2290.2,"body":"to opt for a bench trial"},{"startTime":2291.55,"endTime":2294.76,"body":"as well as a jury trial,"},{"startTime":2294.76,"endTime":2298.993,"body":"as they can in some other"},{"startTime":2294.76,"endTime":2298.993,"body":"common law jurisdictions."},{"startTime":2301.93,"endTime":2304.51,"body":"So, let's consider the alternatives."},{"startTime":2304.51,"endTime":2307.69,"body":"So, there are some reasons to be concerned"},{"startTime":2307.69,"endTime":2310.36,"body":"about the rigor of jury decision-making."},{"startTime":2310.36,"endTime":2311.56,"body":"And it's very difficult"},{"startTime":2311.56,"endTime":2314.08,"body":"to investigate these concerns empirically."},{"startTime":2314.08,"endTime":2317.072,"body":"However, in this regard,"},{"startTime":2314.08,"endTime":2317.072,"body":"we need to keep in mind"},{"startTime":2317.072,"endTime":2320.93,"body":"that we're not comparing trial by jury"},{"startTime":2321.79,"endTime":2324.34,"body":"with trial by oracle."},{"startTime":2324.34,"endTime":2328.3,"body":"We're not looking at"},{"startTime":2324.34,"endTime":2328.3,"body":"whether juries are perfect,"},{"startTime":2328.3,"endTime":2329.98,"body":"we're looking at whether"},{"startTime":2329.98,"endTime":2334.213,"body":"they're better than the"},{"startTime":2329.98,"endTime":2334.213,"body":"alternatives that we have."},{"startTime":2335.146,"endTime":2339.141,"body":"A professional judge sitting"},{"startTime":2335.146,"endTime":2339.141,"body":"with expert assessors"},{"startTime":2339.141,"endTime":2343.12,"body":"or a bench of lay magistrates."},{"startTime":2343.12,"endTime":2345.481,"body":"In many trials, the trier of fact,"},{"startTime":2345.481,"endTime":2349.39,"body":"whether it be a jury or judge"},{"startTime":2345.481,"endTime":2349.39,"body":"or a bench of magistrates,"},{"startTime":2349.39,"endTime":2351.67,"body":"has to assess the credibility of witnesses"},{"startTime":2351.67,"endTime":2355.78,"body":"and decide between competing"},{"startTime":2351.67,"endTime":2355.78,"body":"versions of events."},{"startTime":2355.78,"endTime":2359.32,"body":"Where witnesses give different accounts,"},{"startTime":2359.32,"endTime":2361.57,"body":"the trier of fact has to decide"},{"startTime":2361.57,"endTime":2363.943,"body":"who is mistaken or who is lying."},{"startTime":2364.81,"endTime":2368.11,"body":"And the way that juries"},{"startTime":2364.81,"endTime":2368.11,"body":"currently are expected"},{"startTime":2368.11,"endTime":2371.77,"body":"to perform this task is"},{"startTime":2368.11,"endTime":2371.77,"body":"not particularly effective."},{"startTime":2371.77,"endTime":2373.93,"body":"For example, we, lawyers,"},{"startTime":2373.93,"endTime":2376.27,"body":"are trained to look at inconsistencies"},{"startTime":2376.27,"endTime":2378.1,"body":"between a person's evidence in court"},{"startTime":2378.1,"endTime":2379.84,"body":"and their previous statements."},{"startTime":2379.84,"endTime":2383.26,"body":"And to use those inconsistencies"},{"startTime":2379.84,"endTime":2383.26,"body":"in cross examination"},{"startTime":2383.26,"endTime":2385.57,"body":"to show that a person is lying,"},{"startTime":2385.57,"endTime":2388.341,"body":"the assumption is an inconsistent account"},{"startTime":2388.341,"endTime":2391.24,"body":"is more likely to be a lie."},{"startTime":2391.24,"endTime":2393.92,"body":"But in fact, we know this is not"},{"startTime":2395.05,"endTime":2396.97,"body":"in all cases true."},{"startTime":2396.97,"endTime":2400.457,"body":"There's an excellent article"},{"startTime":2396.97,"endTime":2400.457,"body":"by Hilary Evans Cameron,"},{"startTime":2400.457,"endTime":2404.38,"body":"\"Refugee status determinations"},{"startTime":2400.457,"endTime":2404.38,"body":"and the limits of memory\","},{"startTime":2404.38,"endTime":2406.12,"body":"which summarizes a large amount"},{"startTime":2406.12,"endTime":2409.33,"body":"of empirical research on this topic."},{"startTime":2409.33,"endTime":2414.33,"body":"She shows that human memory"},{"startTime":2409.33,"endTime":2414.33,"body":"for temporal information"},{"startTime":2414.61,"endTime":2417.16,"body":"such as the exact date something happened,"},{"startTime":2417.16,"endTime":2419.71,"body":"how often it happened, the"},{"startTime":2417.16,"endTime":2419.71,"body":"order in which it happened,"},{"startTime":2419.71,"endTime":2423.01,"body":"how long it took, is extremely poor."},{"startTime":2423.01,"endTime":2426.91,"body":"For the most part, we reconstruct"},{"startTime":2423.01,"endTime":2426.91,"body":"that kind of information"},{"startTime":2426.91,"endTime":2430.06,"body":"by inference, estimation, and guesswork"},{"startTime":2430.06,"endTime":2432.187,"body":"rather than actually remembering it."},{"startTime":2432.187,"endTime":2436.75,"body":"Our memory for this kind"},{"startTime":2432.187,"endTime":2436.75,"body":"of information is poor,"},{"startTime":2436.75,"endTime":2439.22,"body":"even for unusual"},{"startTime":2440.32,"endTime":2442.252,"body":"personal events."},{"startTime":2442.252,"endTime":2445.69,"body":"When we have experienced"},{"startTime":2442.252,"endTime":2445.69,"body":"repeated similar events,"},{"startTime":2445.69,"endTime":2449.95,"body":"we're bad at remembering"},{"startTime":2445.69,"endTime":2449.95,"body":"each individual instance."},{"startTime":2449.95,"endTime":2451.789,"body":"And internal inconsistencies"},{"startTime":2451.789,"endTime":2456.4,"body":"are a normal feature of the human memory."},{"startTime":2456.4,"endTime":2461.4,"body":"True stories are just as"},{"startTime":2456.4,"endTime":2461.4,"body":"inconsistent as false ones."},{"startTime":2462.67,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"Interestingly, Cameron"},{"startTime":2462.67,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"shows that hyperthymesia,"},{"startTime":2466.18,"endTime":2469.42,"body":"remembering more rather"},{"startTime":2466.18,"endTime":2469.42,"body":"than less over time,"},{"startTime":2469.42,"endTime":2473.932,"body":"is also a normal feature of human memory."},{"startTime":2473.932,"endTime":2476.5,"body":"These issues are exacerbated"},{"startTime":2476.5,"endTime":2478.69,"body":"in the case of mental health conditions."},{"startTime":2478.69,"endTime":2480.16,"body":"Many people who come before the courts"},{"startTime":2480.16,"endTime":2482.29,"body":"have experienced trauma,"},{"startTime":2482.29,"endTime":2484.0,"body":"traumatic events in their lives"},{"startTime":2484.0,"endTime":2487.33,"body":"and have conditions such as"},{"startTime":2484.0,"endTime":2487.33,"body":"post-traumatic stress disorder"},{"startTime":2487.33,"endTime":2489.85,"body":"or PTSD, and depression,"},{"startTime":2489.85,"endTime":2494.26,"body":"which significantly affects"},{"startTime":2489.85,"endTime":2494.26,"body":"memory and concentration."},{"startTime":2494.26,"endTime":2495.7,"body":"Similarly, the courts"},{"startTime":2495.7,"endTime":2497.68,"body":"have traditionally"},{"startTime":2495.7,"endTime":2497.68,"body":"placed a lot of emphasis"},{"startTime":2497.68,"endTime":2501.423,"body":"on the value of seeing and"},{"startTime":2497.68,"endTime":2501.423,"body":"hearing witnesses give evidence,"},{"startTime":2501.423,"endTime":2503.56,"body":"judging their credibility,"},{"startTime":2503.56,"endTime":2507.97,"body":"not by what they say,"},{"startTime":2503.56,"endTime":2507.97,"body":"but by their demeanor."},{"startTime":2507.97,"endTime":2510.61,"body":"But we know that this too is unreliable."},{"startTime":2510.61,"endTime":2513.19,"body":"For example, some people with PTSD"},{"startTime":2513.19,"endTime":2515.344,"body":"may experience disassociation"},{"startTime":2515.344,"endTime":2517.853,"body":"when recalling traumatic events"},{"startTime":2517.853,"endTime":2521.8,"body":"which may cause 'em to appear distracted,"},{"startTime":2521.8,"endTime":2524.2,"body":"detached, or unwilling to cooperate."},{"startTime":2524.2,"endTime":2527.31,"body":"Likewise is evidence that autistic people"},{"startTime":2527.31,"endTime":2530.86,"body":"may be more likely to be wrongly judged"},{"startTime":2530.86,"endTime":2534.01,"body":"as deceptive or lacking in credibility."},{"startTime":2534.01,"endTime":2536.05,"body":"A person's demeanor may also be affected"},{"startTime":2536.05,"endTime":2538.3,"body":"by their cultural background."},{"startTime":2538.3,"endTime":2541.989,"body":"So, it's very risky to"},{"startTime":2538.3,"endTime":2541.989,"body":"assume that you can tell"},{"startTime":2541.989,"endTime":2543.82,"body":"whether someone is lying"},{"startTime":2543.82,"endTime":2547.57,"body":"by the way they behave"},{"startTime":2543.82,"endTime":2547.57,"body":"when being questioned."},{"startTime":2547.57,"endTime":2549.43,"body":"However, it's important to understand"},{"startTime":2549.43,"endTime":2552.04,"body":"that these problems are"},{"startTime":2549.43,"endTime":2552.04,"body":"not specific to juries."},{"startTime":2552.04,"endTime":2555.85,"body":"You may have noticed in the"},{"startTime":2552.04,"endTime":2555.85,"body":"title of Cameron's article,"},{"startTime":2555.85,"endTime":2557.71,"body":"she's not writing about jury trials,"},{"startTime":2557.71,"endTime":2560.95,"body":"but about refugee status determinations,"},{"startTime":2560.95,"endTime":2562.63,"body":"which are carried out not by juries,"},{"startTime":2562.63,"endTime":2565.87,"body":"but by civil servants"},{"startTime":2562.63,"endTime":2565.87,"body":"and professional judges."},{"startTime":2565.87,"endTime":2567.88,"body":"And indeed, Cameron highlights research"},{"startTime":2567.88,"endTime":2571.57,"body":"showing that in distinguishing"},{"startTime":2567.88,"endTime":2571.57,"body":"truth from falsehood,"},{"startTime":2571.57,"endTime":2574.96,"body":"professional such as"},{"startTime":2571.57,"endTime":2574.96,"body":"judges and police officers"},{"startTime":2574.96,"endTime":2578.83,"body":"don't perform any better than lay people."},{"startTime":2578.83,"endTime":2581.95,"body":"In short, professional judges"},{"startTime":2578.83,"endTime":2581.95,"body":"are certainly not immune"},{"startTime":2581.95,"endTime":2585.37,"body":"from making false assumptions"},{"startTime":2581.95,"endTime":2585.37,"body":"about memory and demeanor."},{"startTime":2585.37,"endTime":2588.67,"body":"Judges are not trained in"},{"startTime":2585.37,"endTime":2588.67,"body":"psychology or psychiatry,"},{"startTime":2588.67,"endTime":2590.444,"body":"but in law and legal education."},{"startTime":2590.444,"endTime":2592.737,"body":"By itself, does not give you"},{"startTime":2592.737,"endTime":2596.35,"body":"special insight into human nature."},{"startTime":2596.35,"endTime":2598.357,"body":"So, we shouldn't assume that judges"},{"startTime":2598.357,"endTime":2601.964,"body":"are any better at getting the"},{"startTime":2598.357,"endTime":2601.964,"body":"answers right than juries."},{"startTime":2601.964,"endTime":2605.075,"body":"One problem here is that"},{"startTime":2601.964,"endTime":2605.075,"body":"English criminal law"},{"startTime":2605.075,"endTime":2608.47,"body":"is traditionally very"},{"startTime":2605.075,"endTime":2608.47,"body":"resistant to the idea"},{"startTime":2608.47,"endTime":2611.8,"body":"of admitting psychological or"},{"startTime":2608.47,"endTime":2611.8,"body":"psychiatric expert evidence"},{"startTime":2611.8,"endTime":2614.8,"body":"to help juries decide on credibility."},{"startTime":2614.8,"endTime":2617.23,"body":"The traditional view is that such evidence"},{"startTime":2617.23,"endTime":2619.48,"body":"is inadmissible in a criminal trial,"},{"startTime":2619.48,"endTime":2623.77,"body":"because it amounts to jury oath-helping,"},{"startTime":2623.77,"endTime":2626.164,"body":"and that is for the jury,"},{"startTime":2626.164,"endTime":2629.08,"body":"not the experts, to"},{"startTime":2626.164,"endTime":2629.08,"body":"decide whether the witness"},{"startTime":2629.08,"endTime":2630.61,"body":"is telling the truth,"},{"startTime":2630.61,"endTime":2633.58,"body":"applying their common"},{"startTime":2630.61,"endTime":2633.58,"body":"sense and experience."},{"startTime":2633.58,"endTime":2635.41,"body":"But the problems we've seen"},{"startTime":2635.41,"endTime":2637.355,"body":"is that most people's assumptions"},{"startTime":2637.355,"endTime":2642.355,"body":"about what makes truthful"},{"startTime":2637.355,"endTime":2642.355,"body":"witness are in fact, wrong."},{"startTime":2642.4,"endTime":2643.54,"body":"In some criminal cases,"},{"startTime":2643.54,"endTime":2645.94,"body":"expert psychological"},{"startTime":2643.54,"endTime":2645.94,"body":"and psychiatric evidence"},{"startTime":2645.94,"endTime":2647.2,"body":"has been held admissible,"},{"startTime":2647.2,"endTime":2650.41,"body":"because it's relevant as to how a witness'"},{"startTime":2650.41,"endTime":2652.701,"body":"or defendant's medical condition,"},{"startTime":2652.701,"endTime":2657.46,"body":"which is outside the normal"},{"startTime":2652.701,"endTime":2657.46,"body":"experience of a jury."},{"startTime":2657.46,"endTime":2658.99,"body":"And that might affect the inferences"},{"startTime":2658.99,"endTime":2663.34,"body":"to be drawn from their behavior"},{"startTime":2658.99,"endTime":2663.34,"body":"as to the state of mind."},{"startTime":2663.34,"endTime":2665.41,"body":"And expert evidence has also been admitted"},{"startTime":2665.41,"endTime":2668.134,"body":"to show that a confession is unreliable"},{"startTime":2668.134,"endTime":2672.58,"body":"because of the suggestibility"},{"startTime":2668.134,"endTime":2672.58,"body":"of the accused."},{"startTime":2672.58,"endTime":2674.62,"body":"And in some cases, it's been acknowledged"},{"startTime":2674.62,"endTime":2677.05,"body":"that expert evidence could be admissible"},{"startTime":2677.05,"endTime":2678.2,"body":"where a defendant"},{"startTime":2679.24,"endTime":2682.9,"body":"witness' mental condition"},{"startTime":2679.24,"endTime":2682.9,"body":"is likely to affect"},{"startTime":2682.9,"endTime":2685.24,"body":"the way that they give evidence."},{"startTime":2685.24,"endTime":2687.848,"body":"But it remains the case that psychological"},{"startTime":2687.848,"endTime":2690.94,"body":"and psychiatric evidence"},{"startTime":2687.848,"endTime":2690.94,"body":"are not admissible"},{"startTime":2690.94,"endTime":2693.61,"body":"or matters considered"},{"startTime":2690.94,"endTime":2693.61,"body":"to be within the range,"},{"startTime":2693.61,"endTime":2695.77,"body":"experience, and knowledge of the jury."},{"startTime":2695.77,"endTime":2699.37,"body":"For example, safe in relation"},{"startTime":2699.37,"endTime":2701.44,"body":"to the reliability of confessions,"},{"startTime":2701.44,"endTime":2703.96,"body":"evidence about mild"},{"startTime":2701.44,"endTime":2703.96,"body":"intellectual impairment"},{"startTime":2703.96,"endTime":2705.721,"body":"is generally not admissible"},{"startTime":2705.721,"endTime":2709.003,"body":"where a defendant's IQ is over 69."},{"startTime":2710.02,"endTime":2713.229,"body":"This arbitrary rule appears"},{"startTime":2710.02,"endTime":2713.229,"body":"to be based on the judicial"},{"startTime":2713.229,"endTime":2717.04,"body":"unsigned assumption that the effect"},{"startTime":2717.04,"endTime":2720.67,"body":"of mild intellectual impairment"},{"startTime":2717.04,"endTime":2720.67,"body":"on a person's evidence"},{"startTime":2720.67,"endTime":2724.9,"body":"or behavior will be within"},{"startTime":2720.67,"endTime":2724.9,"body":"the experience of a jury."},{"startTime":2724.9,"endTime":2727.723,"body":"This illustrates a problem"},{"startTime":2724.9,"endTime":2727.723,"body":"with the English jury trial."},{"startTime":2728.564,"endTime":2731.47,"body":"But it's a problem that"},{"startTime":2728.564,"endTime":2731.47,"body":"would not be solved"},{"startTime":2731.47,"endTime":2734.89,"body":"by replacing jurors with"},{"startTime":2731.47,"endTime":2734.89,"body":"professional judges."},{"startTime":2734.89,"endTime":2738.16,"body":"It can only be solved"},{"startTime":2734.89,"endTime":2738.16,"body":"by changing the approach"},{"startTime":2738.16,"endTime":2740.383,"body":"to the admissibility of evidence."},{"startTime":2743.29,"endTime":2744.43,"body":"Should we replace jury"},{"startTime":2744.43,"endTime":2749.43,"body":"with juries with artificial"},{"startTime":2744.43,"endTime":2749.43,"body":"intelligence? (laughs)"},{"startTime":2749.83,"endTime":2752.95,"body":"We could consider one of"},{"startTime":2749.83,"endTime":2752.95,"body":"the more outlandish ideas"},{"startTime":2752.95,"endTime":2753.82,"body":"that has been floated,"},{"startTime":2753.82,"endTime":2756.25,"body":"replacing juries with"},{"startTime":2753.82,"endTime":2756.25,"body":"artificial intelligence."},{"startTime":2756.25,"endTime":2759.101,"body":"Now, I should say I'm not an AI expert,"},{"startTime":2759.101,"endTime":2762.19,"body":"but I would have very grave concerns"},{"startTime":2762.19,"endTime":2763.9,"body":"about whether a such a system"},{"startTime":2763.9,"endTime":2767.26,"body":"could ever genuinely be fair or just."},{"startTime":2767.26,"endTime":2769.75,"body":"An AI system is only as good"},{"startTime":2769.75,"endTime":2773.841,"body":"as the beta we humans feed into it."},{"startTime":2773.841,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"And data sets on which"},{"startTime":2773.841,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"AI systems are trained"},{"startTime":2777.37,"endTime":2781.407,"body":"are often inadvertently in part, biases,"},{"startTime":2781.407,"endTime":2785.08,"body":"and it will have profound"},{"startTime":2781.407,"endTime":2785.08,"body":"effects on decision-making."},{"startTime":2785.08,"endTime":2786.193,"body":"For example,"},{"startTime":2787.744,"endTime":2792.04,"body":"a 2021 article in the \"New York Times\""},{"startTime":2792.04,"endTime":2795.4,"body":"highlighted an instant"},{"startTime":2792.04,"endTime":2795.4,"body":"where Google's photos"},{"startTime":2795.4,"endTime":2798.28,"body":"automatically sorted photographs"},{"startTime":2798.28,"endTime":2801.823,"body":"of a Black man into a"},{"startTime":2798.28,"endTime":2801.823,"body":"folder marked gorilla."},{"startTime":2803.23,"endTime":2804.97,"body":"Similarly, the article"},{"startTime":2804.97,"endTime":2809.71,"body":"quotes a Black computer"},{"startTime":2804.97,"endTime":2809.71,"body":"expert, Deborah Raji,"},{"startTime":2810.61,"endTime":2813.61,"body":"who was working on a"},{"startTime":2810.61,"endTime":2813.61,"body":"content moderation system"},{"startTime":2813.61,"endTime":2817.24,"body":"designed to remove pornography"},{"startTime":2813.61,"endTime":2817.24,"body":"from social networks."},{"startTime":2817.24,"endTime":2819.479,"body":"She noticed that the system"},{"startTime":2819.479,"endTime":2822.22,"body":"was being trained to"},{"startTime":2819.479,"endTime":2822.22,"body":"distinguish pornography"},{"startTime":2822.22,"endTime":2827.013,"body":"from non-pornography by comparing"},{"startTime":2822.22,"endTime":2827.013,"body":"anodyne stock photographs"},{"startTime":2827.013,"endTime":2830.375,"body":"with images of online pornography sites."},{"startTime":2830.375,"endTime":2832.75,"body":"Because the people in"},{"startTime":2830.375,"endTime":2832.75,"body":"the stock photographs"},{"startTime":2832.75,"endTime":2834.64,"body":"are mainly White,"},{"startTime":2834.64,"endTime":2837.34,"body":"and the people in the"},{"startTime":2834.64,"endTime":2837.34,"body":"pornographic images were not,"},{"startTime":2837.34,"endTime":2840.67,"body":"the system was unconsciously being trained"},{"startTime":2840.67,"endTime":2845.05,"body":"to identify images of Black"},{"startTime":2840.67,"endTime":2845.05,"body":"people as pornography."},{"startTime":2845.05,"endTime":2846.882,"body":"Another Black computer expert"},{"startTime":2846.882,"endTime":2849.548,"body":"found that the racial recognition systems,"},{"startTime":2849.548,"endTime":2853.87,"body":"her workplace did not recognize her face,"},{"startTime":2853.87,"endTime":2857.023,"body":"but when she wore a White mask, it did."},{"startTime":2858.07,"endTime":2859.45,"body":"Now, none of this is to say"},{"startTime":2859.45,"endTime":2862.39,"body":"that artificial intelligence isn't useful,"},{"startTime":2862.39,"endTime":2865.54,"body":"but it doesn't always remove human biases"},{"startTime":2865.54,"endTime":2867.04,"body":"from decision-making."},{"startTime":2867.04,"endTime":2870.82,"body":"Sometimes, it replicates"},{"startTime":2867.04,"endTime":2870.82,"body":"it and exacerbates them."},{"startTime":2870.82,"endTime":2873.55,"body":"And given what we have already learned"},{"startTime":2873.55,"endTime":2876.43,"body":"about how people make false assumptions,"},{"startTime":2876.43,"endTime":2879.01,"body":"for example, about witness' credibility,"},{"startTime":2879.01,"endTime":2881.275,"body":"we can see the same false assumptions"},{"startTime":2881.275,"endTime":2884.786,"body":"could well affect an AI-based courtroom."},{"startTime":2884.786,"endTime":2887.2,"body":"For instance, an AI trained"},{"startTime":2887.2,"endTime":2889.72,"body":"to analyze a person's body language"},{"startTime":2889.72,"endTime":2894.4,"body":"might well-misidentify"},{"startTime":2889.72,"endTime":2894.4,"body":"a person with autism"},{"startTime":2894.4,"endTime":2897.34,"body":"or PTSD as a liar because"},{"startTime":2894.4,"endTime":2897.34,"body":"their body language"},{"startTime":2897.34,"endTime":2900.747,"body":"might not match the"},{"startTime":2897.34,"endTime":2900.747,"body":"programmers expectations"},{"startTime":2900.747,"endTime":2905.32,"body":"as to how a truthful"},{"startTime":2900.747,"endTime":2905.32,"body":"witness ought to behave."},{"startTime":2905.32,"endTime":2906.46,"body":"In this scenario,"},{"startTime":2906.46,"endTime":2908.795,"body":"we wouldn't have eliminated"},{"startTime":2906.46,"endTime":2908.795,"body":"our human biases,"},{"startTime":2908.795,"endTime":2911.743,"body":"we would simply have automated them."},{"startTime":2912.91,"endTime":2915.16,"body":"So, let me conclude."},{"startTime":2915.16,"endTime":2917.98,"body":"I want to wrap up by saying this."},{"startTime":2917.98,"endTime":2922.98,"body":"To an extent, the jury"},{"startTime":2917.98,"endTime":2922.98,"body":"is still out on juries."},{"startTime":2923.59,"endTime":2926.357,"body":"We don't really know with any certainty"},{"startTime":2926.357,"endTime":2929.35,"body":"whether racial bias is"},{"startTime":2926.357,"endTime":2929.35,"body":"a significant factor"},{"startTime":2929.35,"endTime":2931.185,"body":"in jury decision-making."},{"startTime":2931.185,"endTime":2934.99,"body":"Although Thomas' research is often held up"},{"startTime":2934.99,"endTime":2938.26,"body":"as proven that juries are race-blind,"},{"startTime":2938.26,"endTime":2942.838,"body":"there are really good reasons"},{"startTime":2938.26,"endTime":2942.838,"body":"to question this conclusion,"},{"startTime":2942.838,"endTime":2945.19,"body":"nor do we know with any certainty"},{"startTime":2945.19,"endTime":2947.164,"body":"whether juries are"},{"startTime":2945.19,"endTime":2947.164,"body":"getting the answers right,"},{"startTime":2947.164,"endTime":2950.573,"body":"a question which is very"},{"startTime":2947.164,"endTime":2950.573,"body":"difficult to test empirically."},{"startTime":2950.573,"endTime":2953.753,"body":"But before throwing"},{"startTime":2953.753,"endTime":2956.98,"body":"out the institution of trial by jury,"},{"startTime":2956.98,"endTime":2960.01,"body":"we should keep in mind that"},{"startTime":2956.98,"endTime":2960.01,"body":"trial by professional judges"},{"startTime":2960.01,"endTime":2963.34,"body":"is not necessarily a better alternative."},{"startTime":2963.34,"endTime":2966.681,"body":"A legal education does not give a person"},{"startTime":2966.681,"endTime":2969.76,"body":"the wisdom of Solomon."},{"startTime":2969.76,"endTime":2972.754,"body":"And while we don't know to what extent"},{"startTime":2972.754,"endTime":2975.37,"body":"juries are racially biased,"},{"startTime":2975.37,"endTime":2977.563,"body":"there is good evidence that judges are."},{"startTime":2978.43,"endTime":2980.26,"body":"Nor should we subscribe to gimmicks"},{"startTime":2980.26,"endTime":2984.1,"body":"such as replacing juries"},{"startTime":2980.26,"endTime":2984.1,"body":"with artificial intelligence."},{"startTime":2984.1,"endTime":2987.241,"body":"It may well be that the"},{"startTime":2984.1,"endTime":2987.241,"body":"key to reducing bias"},{"startTime":2987.241,"endTime":2991.39,"body":"and improving the rigor"},{"startTime":2987.241,"endTime":2991.39,"body":"in our justice system"},{"startTime":2991.39,"endTime":2994.45,"body":"lies in changes to the trial process"},{"startTime":2994.45,"endTime":2996.16,"body":"and the rules of evidence,"},{"startTime":2996.16,"endTime":2999.673,"body":"rather than replacing trial by jury."},{"startTime":3000.57,"endTime":3001.68,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3001.68,"endTime":3004.763,"body":"(attendees clapping)"},{"startTime":3007.44,"endTime":3010.32,"body":"- Must a judge in all circumstances"},{"startTime":3010.32,"endTime":3012.873,"body":"accept the jury's decision?"},{"startTime":3016.83,"endTime":3017.663,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3019.47,"endTime":3020.74,"body":"The answer is"},{"startTime":3024.18,"endTime":3025.56,"body":"it depends."},{"startTime":3025.56,"endTime":3030.03,"body":"When a jury have quite"},{"startTime":3025.56,"endTime":3030.03,"body":"clearly misunderstood..."},{"startTime":3030.03,"endTime":3032.64,"body":"What I've known judges to do"},{"startTime":3032.64,"endTime":3037.64,"body":"is to call the jury back in,"},{"startTime":3032.64,"endTime":3037.64,"body":"give them further directions."},{"startTime":3039.54,"endTime":3042.393,"body":"Sometimes, those directions"},{"startTime":3039.54,"endTime":3042.393,"body":"might be in writing,"},{"startTime":3044.22,"endTime":3047.039,"body":"ask for personal, that jury,"},{"startTime":3047.039,"endTime":3049.11,"body":"are the instructions clear?"},{"startTime":3049.11,"endTime":3051.96,"body":"If you've got any problems"},{"startTime":3049.11,"endTime":3051.96,"body":"with that, please let me know."},{"startTime":3052.83,"endTime":3054.303,"body":"And then, send the jury out."},{"startTime":3055.2,"endTime":3057.393,"body":"But as I've said in the lecture,"},{"startTime":3059.31,"endTime":3061.98,"body":"a fundamental premise of our jury system,"},{"startTime":3061.98,"endTime":3065.25,"body":"a judge cannot refuse to"},{"startTime":3061.98,"endTime":3065.25,"body":"take a jury's decision"},{"startTime":3065.25,"endTime":3067.42,"body":"just because the judge disagrees with it"},{"startTime":3068.4,"endTime":3070.85,"body":"or may think it's wrong."},{"startTime":3070.85,"endTime":3072.27,"body":"And as we've seen,"},{"startTime":3072.27,"endTime":3075.45,"body":"as I said and touched upon"},{"startTime":3072.27,"endTime":3075.45,"body":"earlier on in this lecture,"},{"startTime":3075.45,"endTime":3080.45,"body":"we can see recently in the"},{"startTime":3075.45,"endTime":3080.45,"body":"toppling of the Colston statue"},{"startTime":3081.99,"endTime":3084.15,"body":"that the jury acquitted."},{"startTime":3084.15,"endTime":3087.45,"body":"And yesterday, we had a decision,"},{"startTime":3087.45,"endTime":3089.43,"body":"the Court of Appeals saying that"},{"startTime":3089.43,"endTime":3090.843,"body":"a crime was committed."},{"startTime":3093.15,"endTime":3098.15,"body":"- So, you made a good case"},{"startTime":3093.15,"endTime":3098.15,"body":"for knowing more about"},{"startTime":3098.4,"endTime":3101.46,"body":"what goes on in court, using"},{"startTime":3098.4,"endTime":3101.46,"body":"data to make decisions."},{"startTime":3101.46,"endTime":3103.35,"body":"So, let me put it to you"},{"startTime":3103.35,"endTime":3107.4,"body":"that we perhaps ought to"},{"startTime":3103.35,"endTime":3107.4,"body":"be recording in some way"},{"startTime":3107.4,"endTime":3109.08,"body":"what happens in the jury room,"},{"startTime":3109.08,"endTime":3113.439,"body":"so that we would be able"},{"startTime":3109.08,"endTime":3113.439,"body":"to analyze in retrospect"},{"startTime":3113.439,"endTime":3116.002,"body":"whether the jury was"},{"startTime":3113.439,"endTime":3116.002,"body":"talking bollocks or not."},{"startTime":3116.002,"endTime":3119.708,"body":"(attendees laughing)"},{"startTime":3119.708,"endTime":3122.46,"body":"(everybody laughing)"},{"startTime":3122.46,"endTime":3123.5,"body":"- Yeah, one way..."},{"startTime":3125.01,"endTime":3126.483,"body":"What we don't want to do,"},{"startTime":3127.68,"endTime":3129.73,"body":"we don't want to impede"},{"startTime":3130.95,"endTime":3132.51,"body":"jury deliberations."},{"startTime":3132.51,"endTime":3134.36,"body":"We've all seen the..."},{"startTime":3135.206,"endTime":3136.32,"body":"Well, I say we've all seen."},{"startTime":3136.32,"endTime":3137.88,"body":"Those of us of a certain age"},{"startTime":3137.88,"endTime":3140.13,"body":"have seen the film \"12 Angry Men\"."},{"startTime":3140.13,"endTime":3141.36,"body":"Yeah?"},{"startTime":3141.36,"endTime":3145.44,"body":"If you haven't seen it,"},{"startTime":3141.36,"endTime":3145.44,"body":"it's a film that's really,"},{"startTime":3145.44,"endTime":3148.35,"body":"I would really recommend that you watch,"},{"startTime":3148.35,"endTime":3149.47,"body":"because it just"},{"startTime":3150.72,"endTime":3153.39,"body":"gives you an insight"},{"startTime":3153.39,"endTime":3155.52,"body":"even though it's a dramatized insight"},{"startTime":3155.52,"endTime":3158.79,"body":"as to what possibly"},{"startTime":3155.52,"endTime":3158.79,"body":"goes on in a jury room."},{"startTime":3158.79,"endTime":3161.31,"body":"And we wouldn't want to have, say,"},{"startTime":3161.31,"endTime":3163.83,"body":"cameras affecting that process"},{"startTime":3163.83,"endTime":3166.26,"body":"where people can honestly"},{"startTime":3163.83,"endTime":3166.26,"body":"say what they feel."},{"startTime":3166.26,"endTime":3167.73,"body":"Because if you think about it,"},{"startTime":3167.73,"endTime":3170.07,"body":"using that film as an example,"},{"startTime":3170.07,"endTime":3173.1,"body":"if people didn't honestly"},{"startTime":3170.07,"endTime":3173.1,"body":"say what they felt,"},{"startTime":3173.1,"endTime":3175.08,"body":"then it would've been very difficult."},{"startTime":3175.08,"endTime":3179.018,"body":"Was the main character Henry"},{"startTime":3175.08,"endTime":3179.018,"body":"Fonda, if I remember rightly?"},{"startTime":3179.018,"endTime":3180.063,"body":"- [Attendee 1] Yeah."},{"startTime":3181.226,"endTime":3183.0,"body":"- To unpick"},{"startTime":3183.0,"endTime":3184.71,"body":"what was wrong"},{"startTime":3184.71,"endTime":3189.36,"body":"and persuade or attempt to"},{"startTime":3184.71,"endTime":3189.36,"body":"persuade the juror against it."},{"startTime":3189.36,"endTime":3192.57,"body":"But what I would say in"},{"startTime":3189.36,"endTime":3192.57,"body":"relation to your question"},{"startTime":3192.57,"endTime":3193.403,"body":"as to whether"},{"startTime":3195.636,"endTime":3198.63,"body":"a jury is conquers"},{"startTime":3198.63,"endTime":3201.66,"body":"is perhaps we could move to a system"},{"startTime":3201.66,"endTime":3206.66,"body":"whereby we require juries to"},{"startTime":3201.66,"endTime":3206.66,"body":"provide reasoned decisions."},{"startTime":3209.13,"endTime":3209.963,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":3211.459,"endTime":3214.71,"body":"that's not affecting how"},{"startTime":3211.459,"endTime":3214.71,"body":"they're deliberating,"},{"startTime":3214.71,"endTime":3219.003,"body":"but we have an understanding"},{"startTime":3214.71,"endTime":3219.003,"body":"once they've deliberated."},{"startTime":3222.05,"endTime":3224.88,"body":"And interestingly, what's often argued is,"},{"startTime":3224.88,"endTime":3227.67,"body":"oh, well, that's putting too"},{"startTime":3224.88,"endTime":3227.67,"body":"much of a burden on juries."},{"startTime":3227.67,"endTime":3228.723,"body":"But however,"},{"startTime":3230.22,"endTime":3231.19,"body":"in the"},{"startTime":3232.74,"endTime":3234.783,"body":"jurisdiction of the coroners,"},{"startTime":3235.907,"endTime":3240.907,"body":"juries regularly provide written"},{"startTime":3235.907,"endTime":3240.907,"body":"reasons in their verdicts."},{"startTime":3241.62,"endTime":3245.878,"body":"'Cause the coroner's juries"},{"startTime":3241.62,"endTime":3245.878,"body":"verdict to the conclusion"},{"startTime":3245.878,"endTime":3250.878,"body":"is quite detailed, and"},{"startTime":3245.878,"endTime":3250.878,"body":"juries are able to do that."},{"startTime":3250.92,"endTime":3253.35,"body":"And the only difference"},{"startTime":3250.92,"endTime":3253.35,"body":"between a coroner's jury"},{"startTime":3253.35,"endTime":3256.74,"body":"and a criminal jury is a"},{"startTime":3253.35,"endTime":3256.74,"body":"difference in arithmetic."},{"startTime":3256.74,"endTime":3260.22,"body":"You have 11 jurors on a inquest"},{"startTime":3260.22,"endTime":3264.96,"body":"where you have a mandatory 12"},{"startTime":3260.22,"endTime":3264.96,"body":"jurors in a criminal court."},{"startTime":3264.96,"endTime":3267.503,"body":"So, arithmetic has got"},{"startTime":3264.96,"endTime":3267.503,"body":"nothing to do with it."},{"startTime":3267.503,"endTime":3269.73,"body":"- It is a question about"},{"startTime":3269.73,"endTime":3272.709,"body":"finding out what happens"},{"startTime":3269.73,"endTime":3272.709,"body":"in the jury's room."},{"startTime":3272.709,"endTime":3275.996,"body":"Maybe not, as I understand it,"},{"startTime":3275.996,"endTime":3278.52,"body":"they're completely closed."},{"startTime":3278.52,"endTime":3279.48,"body":"You're not allowed to know"},{"startTime":3279.48,"endTime":3281.1,"body":"what goes on in that."},{"startTime":3279.48,"endTime":3281.1,"body":"- Absolutely."},{"startTime":3281.1,"endTime":3282.66,"body":"That's absolutely correct."},{"startTime":3282.66,"endTime":3284.64,"body":"- And it just seems that the importance"},{"startTime":3284.64,"endTime":3286.5,"body":"of what happens in there is like,"},{"startTime":3286.5,"endTime":3289.23,"body":"not necessarily with"},{"startTime":3286.5,"endTime":3289.23,"body":"respect to particular case,"},{"startTime":3289.23,"endTime":3292.26,"body":"but even to be able to find"},{"startTime":3289.23,"endTime":3292.26,"body":"out what happens in there"},{"startTime":3292.26,"endTime":3294.243,"body":"for the purposes of research."},{"startTime":3295.83,"endTime":3297.48,"body":"It just seems..."},{"startTime":3297.48,"endTime":3300.6,"body":"What would be the cons"},{"startTime":3297.48,"endTime":3300.6,"body":"to being able to do that?"},{"startTime":3300.6,"endTime":3303.439,"body":"Not in a particular case"},{"startTime":3300.6,"endTime":3303.439,"body":"where the judge gets to say,"},{"startTime":3303.439,"endTime":3306.767,"body":"I disagree with you or whatever."},{"startTime":3306.767,"endTime":3308.647,"body":"- Yeah. (sighs)"},{"startTime":3308.647,"endTime":3310.721,"body":"Yeah, I understand it and"},{"startTime":3308.647,"endTime":3310.721,"body":"it's a great question,"},{"startTime":3310.721,"endTime":3315.333,"body":"and I think, the rationale"},{"startTime":3310.721,"endTime":3315.333,"body":"is, is that sanctity,"},{"startTime":3316.36,"endTime":3319.17,"body":"preserving that sanctity in the jury room,"},{"startTime":3319.17,"endTime":3321.57,"body":"so jurors can deliberate"},{"startTime":3321.57,"endTime":3324.138,"body":"and come to the conclusions."},{"startTime":3324.138,"endTime":3326.61,"body":"And I question that."},{"startTime":3326.61,"endTime":3328.2,"body":"- [Attendee 2] It's"},{"startTime":3326.61,"endTime":3328.2,"body":"often a medical research."},{"startTime":3328.2,"endTime":3331.758,"body":"- Yeah, I question that,"},{"startTime":3328.2,"endTime":3331.758,"body":"because you never know."},{"startTime":3331.758,"endTime":3333.9,"body":"For we know that"},{"startTime":3333.9,"endTime":3335.92,"body":"unless you have a juror"},{"startTime":3337.23,"endTime":3341.52,"body":"who brings some improper conduct"},{"startTime":3341.52,"endTime":3344.223,"body":"to the judge's attention,"},{"startTime":3341.52,"endTime":3344.223,"body":"you will never know."},{"startTime":3346.199,"endTime":3348.99,"body":"There are cases where"},{"startTime":3348.99,"endTime":3351.78,"body":"you have whistle blows on juries"},{"startTime":3351.78,"endTime":3354.09,"body":"who bring improper conduct."},{"startTime":3354.09,"endTime":3356.61,"body":"But those cases are rare."},{"startTime":3356.61,"endTime":3359.027,"body":"And even when they do happen,"},{"startTime":3359.027,"endTime":3362.12,"body":"lawyers and the judges are very much..."},{"startTime":3365.91,"endTime":3367.02,"body":"There's a lot of confusion"},{"startTime":3367.02,"endTime":3369.15,"body":"as to what they should be doing about it."},{"startTime":3369.15,"endTime":3372.78,"body":"- Leslie, let's take one"},{"startTime":3369.15,"endTime":3372.78,"body":"question from the back, please."},{"startTime":3372.78,"endTime":3374.61,"body":"- [Attendee 3] Thank"},{"startTime":3372.78,"endTime":3374.61,"body":"you. That was brilliant."},{"startTime":3374.61,"endTime":3375.93,"body":"Okay, here we go."},{"startTime":3375.93,"endTime":3376.893,"body":"The question is,"},{"startTime":3378.24,"endTime":3380.91,"body":"it seems to me that I recall"},{"startTime":3378.24,"endTime":3380.91,"body":"there was some evidence."},{"startTime":3380.91,"endTime":3382.737,"body":"We've got the barrister strike going on,"},{"startTime":3382.737,"endTime":3384.24,"body":"and the whole background to that is,"},{"startTime":3384.24,"endTime":3385.41,"body":"of course, the underfunding,"},{"startTime":3385.41,"endTime":3387.8,"body":"the chronic underfunding of"},{"startTime":3385.41,"endTime":3387.8,"body":"the criminal justice system."},{"startTime":3387.8,"endTime":3390.57,"body":"And one of the tricks that"},{"startTime":3387.8,"endTime":3390.57,"body":"the conservative government"},{"startTime":3390.57,"endTime":3392.94,"body":"was trying to pull was to suggest"},{"startTime":3392.94,"endTime":3395.31,"body":"if we had a smaller jury pool,"},{"startTime":3395.31,"endTime":3396.78,"body":"we could speed things along,"},{"startTime":3396.78,"endTime":3398.88,"body":"because it has nothing to do"},{"startTime":3396.78,"endTime":3398.88,"body":"with the total incompetence,"},{"startTime":3398.88,"endTime":3401.79,"body":"the fact that the G4"},{"startTime":3398.88,"endTime":3401.79,"body":"can't get this right guy"},{"startTime":3401.79,"endTime":3404.28,"body":"between Willingham and Wakefield,"},{"startTime":3404.28,"endTime":3406.56,"body":"because they're not capable of doing that,"},{"startTime":3406.56,"endTime":3407.52,"body":"even though he's in imprison"},{"startTime":3407.52,"endTime":3409.02,"body":"to deliver him to the right court."},{"startTime":3409.02,"endTime":3410.58,"body":"But actually, there are too many members"},{"startTime":3410.58,"endTime":3413.04,"body":"of the public in there"},{"startTime":3410.58,"endTime":3413.04,"body":"slowing things down."},{"startTime":3413.04,"endTime":3414.12,"body":"And if I remember rightly,"},{"startTime":3414.12,"endTime":3415.89,"body":"there was some pretty strong evidence."},{"startTime":3415.89,"endTime":3417.87,"body":"Now, I can't remember if"},{"startTime":3415.89,"endTime":3417.87,"body":"it was Thomas or Lammy,"},{"startTime":3417.87,"endTime":3420.78,"body":"that if you interfere with the"},{"startTime":3417.87,"endTime":3420.78,"body":"numbers when you go down to,"},{"startTime":3420.78,"endTime":3422.94,"body":"I think, the statutory minimum is nine"},{"startTime":3422.94,"endTime":3424.23,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":3422.94,"endTime":3424.23,"body":"- for a decision."},{"startTime":3424.23,"endTime":3427.05,"body":"That actually, you then"},{"startTime":3424.23,"endTime":3427.05,"body":"start to see racial bias"},{"startTime":3427.05,"endTime":3428.55,"body":"creeping back into the jury"},{"startTime":3428.55,"endTime":3430.5,"body":"in a similar way to professional judges."},{"startTime":3430.5,"endTime":3431.46,"body":"Any thoughts on that side?"},{"startTime":3431.46,"endTime":3432.293,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3432.293,"endTime":3434.583,"body":"And I think, think if you"},{"startTime":3432.293,"endTime":3434.583,"body":"just look at the maths,"},{"startTime":3436.787,"endTime":3439.74,"body":"that would seem to be"},{"startTime":3436.787,"endTime":3439.74,"body":"logical and make sense,"},{"startTime":3439.74,"endTime":3443.34,"body":"because the smaller the"},{"startTime":3439.74,"endTime":3443.34,"body":"pool of decision-making,"},{"startTime":3443.34,"endTime":3446.024,"body":"the more likely that if"},{"startTime":3443.34,"endTime":3446.024,"body":"they do have any biases,"},{"startTime":3446.024,"endTime":3448.89,"body":"those biases will not be counteracted"},{"startTime":3448.89,"endTime":3451.14,"body":"by those without those biases."},{"startTime":3451.14,"endTime":3454.62,"body":"So, that would make perfect"},{"startTime":3451.14,"endTime":3454.62,"body":"logical sense to me."},{"startTime":3454.62,"endTime":3456.36,"body":"- [Attendee 4] Hello."},{"startTime":3456.36,"endTime":3457.609,"body":"I've been done for"},{"startTime":3457.609,"endTime":3458.442,"body":"(indistinct)"},{"startTime":3458.442,"endTime":3459.637,"body":"couple of times"},{"startTime":3459.637,"endTime":3463.797,"body":"and been called for jury"},{"startTime":3459.637,"endTime":3463.797,"body":"service three times."},{"startTime":3463.797,"endTime":3465.42,"body":"The last time, they said"},{"startTime":3465.42,"endTime":3467.397,"body":"they're going to charge me 1,000 pound."},{"startTime":3467.397,"endTime":3469.14,"body":"And I told the police,"},{"startTime":3469.14,"endTime":3471.325,"body":"I'm not coming into the police station."},{"startTime":3471.325,"endTime":3474.933,"body":"As a ex-Abdasa governor, I would say,"},{"startTime":3476.58,"endTime":3481.58,"body":"they need more come to be"},{"startTime":3476.58,"endTime":3481.58,"body":"well-trained, anybody deciding."},{"startTime":3481.912,"endTime":3484.92,"body":"And I'm making a judgment on me,"},{"startTime":3484.92,"endTime":3487.803,"body":"because I study someone,"},{"startTime":3488.67,"endTime":3491.64,"body":"and if I am not doing anything ungodly,"},{"startTime":3491.64,"endTime":3493.06,"body":"then I don't want nobody"},{"startTime":3493.06,"endTime":3497.043,"body":"who I don't know about"},{"startTime":3493.06,"endTime":3497.043,"body":"coming and judging me."},{"startTime":3498.36,"endTime":3499.714,"body":"- Well,"},{"startTime":3499.714,"endTime":3502.023,"body":"you've raised an interesting issue."},{"startTime":3502.947,"endTime":3507.937,"body":"I was speaking to a colleague"},{"startTime":3502.947,"endTime":3507.937,"body":"of mine who mentioned,"},{"startTime":3507.937,"endTime":3512.35,"body":"who works in the Australian"},{"startTime":3507.937,"endTime":3512.35,"body":"jurisdiction, mentioned that"},{"startTime":3514.2,"endTime":3517.36,"body":"the indigenous people there"},{"startTime":3518.34,"endTime":3519.33,"body":"have real problems,"},{"startTime":3519.33,"endTime":3523.02,"body":"because they tend to"},{"startTime":3519.33,"endTime":3523.02,"body":"have all White jurors."},{"startTime":3523.02,"endTime":3525.0,"body":"And so, what they have,"},{"startTime":3525.0,"endTime":3530.0,"body":"they have the choice of a bench"},{"startTime":3525.0,"endTime":3530.0,"body":"trial, a judge only trial."},{"startTime":3530.19,"endTime":3532.5,"body":"And I understand that."},{"startTime":3532.5,"endTime":3533.333,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":3535.26,"endTime":3538.5,"body":"let me just come back to this"},{"startTime":3535.26,"endTime":3538.5,"body":"picture that I had up earlier,"},{"startTime":3538.5,"endTime":3540.783,"body":"which I just think says it all."},{"startTime":3543.45,"endTime":3544.803,"body":"Imagine this."},{"startTime":3545.7,"endTime":3548.76,"body":"Imagine instead of 12 White men,"},{"startTime":3548.76,"endTime":3550.21,"body":"you had 12 Black men"},{"startTime":3552.3,"endTime":3554.16,"body":"sitting there."},{"startTime":3554.16,"endTime":3556.863,"body":"Would you say that those were your peers?"},{"startTime":3557.82,"endTime":3560.07,"body":"Now, I pose that question to you"},{"startTime":3560.07,"endTime":3565.07,"body":"knowing that I'm talking to"},{"startTime":3560.07,"endTime":3565.07,"body":"a diverse audience tonight."},{"startTime":3565.56,"endTime":3567.36,"body":"But that's the point."},{"startTime":3567.36,"endTime":3568.92,"body":"Looking at that picture,"},{"startTime":3568.92,"endTime":3573.92,"body":"would you say you were being"},{"startTime":3568.92,"endTime":3573.92,"body":"tried by 12 of your peers?"},{"startTime":3575.79,"endTime":3578.59,"body":"Now, put yourself in the shoes of a young"},{"startTime":3579.57,"endTime":3580.78,"body":"indigenous"},{"startTime":3581.94,"endTime":3585.243,"body":"person of color facing more White jury."},{"startTime":3586.65,"endTime":3587.523,"body":"That's the issue."},{"startTime":3588.42,"endTime":3589.62,"body":"I think, we're going to leave it there."},{"startTime":3589.62,"endTime":3590.91,"body":"- [Mediator] Yeah."},{"startTime":3589.62,"endTime":3590.91,"body":"(attendees laughing)"},{"startTime":3590.91,"endTime":3592.783,"body":"Ladies and gentlemen, Professor Thomas."},{"startTime":3592.783,"endTime":3595.866,"body":"(attendees clapping)"}]}