{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.15,"endTime":1.722,"body":"- So, I want to talk today to you about,"},{"startTime":1.722,"endTime":4.26,"body":"whether we should permit"},{"startTime":1.722,"endTime":4.26,"body":"voluntary assisted dying."},{"startTime":4.26,"endTime":5.52,"body":"And I want to say from the outset"},{"startTime":5.52,"endTime":9.03,"body":"that this is obviously"},{"startTime":5.52,"endTime":9.03,"body":"a highly emotive topic"},{"startTime":9.03,"endTime":12.103,"body":"on which people have"},{"startTime":9.03,"endTime":12.103,"body":"legitimately different views."},{"startTime":12.103,"endTime":14.79,"body":"And I want to tread"},{"startTime":12.103,"endTime":14.79,"body":"carefully as I talk about it."},{"startTime":14.79,"endTime":17.16,"body":"I have my own personal perspective on it"},{"startTime":17.16,"endTime":19.35,"body":"and I have my own views about it."},{"startTime":19.35,"endTime":22.02,"body":"I want to attempt to give you"},{"startTime":19.35,"endTime":22.02,"body":"a sense of what the law is"},{"startTime":22.02,"endTime":24.03,"body":"and why the law is as it is,"},{"startTime":24.03,"endTime":27.351,"body":"and to explain some of the"},{"startTime":24.03,"endTime":27.351,"body":"arguments on either side."},{"startTime":27.351,"endTime":28.8,"body":"As I was writing this,"},{"startTime":28.8,"endTime":29.887,"body":"I'd said to myself at the beginning,"},{"startTime":29.887,"endTime":32.43,"body":"\"Make sure you're completely neutral.\""},{"startTime":32.43,"endTime":33.547,"body":"And I was talking to my husband, he said,"},{"startTime":33.547,"endTime":35.49,"body":"\"Yeah, make sure you"},{"startTime":33.547,"endTime":35.49,"body":"are completely neutral.\""},{"startTime":35.49,"endTime":37.44,"body":"And I have to say, I"},{"startTime":35.49,"endTime":37.44,"body":"found that I can't be,"},{"startTime":37.44,"endTime":39.66,"body":"and I think that I have"},{"startTime":37.44,"endTime":39.66,"body":"to stand by that and say,"},{"startTime":39.66,"endTime":41.513,"body":"you will see that I have a position."},{"startTime":41.513,"endTime":44.43,"body":"I will attempt to be as"},{"startTime":41.513,"endTime":44.43,"body":"unbiased as I can though."},{"startTime":44.43,"endTime":45.63,"body":"And what I'm really keen"},{"startTime":45.63,"endTime":48.99,"body":"is to hear from all of you"},{"startTime":45.63,"endTime":48.99,"body":"about your perspectives,"},{"startTime":48.99,"endTime":51.75,"body":"because I know many of us"},{"startTime":48.99,"endTime":51.75,"body":"have personal stories of this"},{"startTime":51.75,"endTime":53.1,"body":"and we have strong personal feelings"},{"startTime":53.1,"endTime":54.48,"body":"and we have strong moral feelings"},{"startTime":54.48,"endTime":57.33,"body":"and I'm very open to hearing"},{"startTime":54.48,"endTime":57.33,"body":"everybody's perspective"},{"startTime":57.33,"endTime":58.163,"body":"at the end."},{"startTime":58.163,"endTime":60.353,"body":"So, I look forward to your"},{"startTime":58.163,"endTime":60.353,"body":"questions and your comments."},{"startTime":61.29,"endTime":63.3,"body":"So, what I first want to talk"},{"startTime":61.29,"endTime":63.3,"body":"to you about is what do I mean"},{"startTime":63.3,"endTime":65.71,"body":"when I talk about"},{"startTime":63.3,"endTime":65.71,"body":"voluntary assisted dying?"},{"startTime":65.71,"endTime":67.86,"body":"It means many things."},{"startTime":67.86,"endTime":70.56,"body":"I'm using a fairly"},{"startTime":67.86,"endTime":70.56,"body":"limited definition today,"},{"startTime":70.56,"endTime":72.66,"body":"but I will talk to you"},{"startTime":70.56,"endTime":72.66,"body":"about some wider ideas,"},{"startTime":72.66,"endTime":75.75,"body":"about what voluntary assisted dying means."},{"startTime":75.75,"endTime":76.583,"body":"So, euthanasia"},{"startTime":76.583,"endTime":78.75,"body":"is the act of deliberately"},{"startTime":76.583,"endTime":78.75,"body":"ending a person's life"},{"startTime":78.75,"endTime":79.8,"body":"to relieve their suffering."},{"startTime":79.8,"endTime":81.03,"body":"And assisted suicide"},{"startTime":81.03,"endTime":82.95,"body":"is the act of deliberately"},{"startTime":81.03,"endTime":82.95,"body":"assisting another person"},{"startTime":82.95,"endTime":83.783,"body":"to kill themselves."},{"startTime":83.783,"endTime":84.78,"body":"And these are the two things"},{"startTime":84.78,"endTime":88.383,"body":"that we tend to mean when we"},{"startTime":84.78,"endTime":88.383,"body":"say voluntary assisted dying."},{"startTime":89.22,"endTime":92.07,"body":"And those in favor of"},{"startTime":89.22,"endTime":92.07,"body":"these things frame them"},{"startTime":92.07,"endTime":93.87,"body":"as acts of compassion."},{"startTime":93.87,"endTime":94.74,"body":"So, for example,"},{"startTime":94.74,"endTime":97.237,"body":"Baroness Bakewell expressed"},{"startTime":94.74,"endTime":97.237,"body":"in the House of Lords recently"},{"startTime":97.237,"endTime":99.487,"body":"\"An easeful death is a"},{"startTime":97.237,"endTime":99.487,"body":"gift the compassionate,"},{"startTime":99.487,"endTime":102.48,"body":"\"should legally bestow on"},{"startTime":99.487,"endTime":102.48,"body":"patients in their dying days.\""},{"startTime":102.48,"endTime":103.65,"body":"So, it's demonstrably something"},{"startTime":103.65,"endTime":105.12,"body":"that those who are in favor of it,"},{"startTime":105.12,"endTime":107.912,"body":"considered to be a compassionate act."},{"startTime":107.912,"endTime":110.7,"body":"I want to talk to you"},{"startTime":107.912,"endTime":110.7,"body":"about some other things"},{"startTime":110.7,"endTime":112.56,"body":"that might form more"},{"startTime":110.7,"endTime":112.56,"body":"broadly into the context"},{"startTime":112.56,"endTime":114.84,"body":"of assisted dying in a moment."},{"startTime":114.84,"endTime":115.71,"body":"But I want to start"},{"startTime":115.71,"endTime":118.203,"body":"with what the fundamental"},{"startTime":115.71,"endTime":118.203,"body":"legal position is."},{"startTime":119.37,"endTime":120.42,"body":"The fundamental legal position"},{"startTime":120.42,"endTime":122.46,"body":"is that a doctor who deliberately"},{"startTime":120.42,"endTime":122.46,"body":"ends a patient's life"},{"startTime":122.46,"endTime":124.374,"body":"is potentially guilty of murder."},{"startTime":124.374,"endTime":127.387,"body":"So, Justice Devlin said in Adams,"},{"startTime":127.387,"endTime":130.057,"body":"\"If the acts done are intended"},{"startTime":127.387,"endTime":130.057,"body":"to kill and do in fact kill,"},{"startTime":130.057,"endTime":131.707,"body":"\"it does not matter if a life is cut short"},{"startTime":131.707,"endTime":132.727,"body":"\"by weeks or months,"},{"startTime":132.727,"endTime":134.167,"body":"\"it is just as much murder as if"},{"startTime":134.167,"endTime":136.453,"body":"\"it were cut short by years.\""},{"startTime":136.453,"endTime":138.637,"body":"In R and Inglis, Lord Judge said,"},{"startTime":138.637,"endTime":140.197,"body":"\"The law of murder does not distinguish"},{"startTime":140.197,"endTime":141.817,"body":"\"between murder for malevolent reasons"},{"startTime":141.817,"endTime":144.54,"body":"\"and murder motivated by familial love.\""},{"startTime":144.54,"endTime":147.84,"body":"So, as long as the act and the"},{"startTime":144.54,"endTime":147.84,"body":"mental elements are present,"},{"startTime":147.84,"endTime":149.7,"body":"it doesn't matter that the"},{"startTime":147.84,"endTime":149.7,"body":"patient is terminally ill."},{"startTime":149.7,"endTime":151.74,"body":"It doesn't matter that they had consented."},{"startTime":151.74,"endTime":154.5,"body":"It doesn't matter if it's a merciful act."},{"startTime":154.5,"endTime":157.62,"body":"So, Lord Golf affirm this in"},{"startTime":154.5,"endTime":157.62,"body":"Airedale NHS Trust and Bland"},{"startTime":157.62,"endTime":158.453,"body":"when he said,"},{"startTime":158.453,"endTime":159.937,"body":"\"It's not lawful for a"},{"startTime":158.453,"endTime":159.937,"body":"doctor to administer a drug"},{"startTime":159.937,"endTime":162.037,"body":"\"to his patient to bring about his death,"},{"startTime":162.037,"endTime":164.737,"body":"\"even if that course is prompted"},{"startTime":162.037,"endTime":164.737,"body":"by the humanitarian desire"},{"startTime":164.737,"endTime":168.09,"body":"\"to end suffering, however"},{"startTime":164.737,"endTime":168.09,"body":"great that suffering may be.\""},{"startTime":168.09,"endTime":170.76,"body":"So, there are many clear"},{"startTime":168.09,"endTime":170.76,"body":"judicial statements"},{"startTime":170.76,"endTime":172.77,"body":"that make it clear that"},{"startTime":170.76,"endTime":172.77,"body":"this is not lawful,"},{"startTime":172.77,"endTime":175.773,"body":"that it is not lawful to"},{"startTime":172.77,"endTime":175.773,"body":"actively end a patient's life."},{"startTime":177.42,"endTime":178.253,"body":"At this point,"},{"startTime":178.253,"endTime":179.64,"body":"I want to pause and tell"},{"startTime":178.253,"endTime":179.64,"body":"you about some things"},{"startTime":179.64,"endTime":180.69,"body":"that are lawful,"},{"startTime":180.69,"endTime":182.82,"body":"because I think when we"},{"startTime":180.69,"endTime":182.82,"body":"think about assisted dying,"},{"startTime":182.82,"endTime":184.77,"body":"it's important to"},{"startTime":182.82,"endTime":184.77,"body":"understand the wider context"},{"startTime":184.77,"endTime":186.3,"body":"in which these decisions are taken"},{"startTime":186.3,"endTime":188.37,"body":"and what the law does permit."},{"startTime":188.37,"endTime":190.89,"body":"So, one of those is refusal of treatment."},{"startTime":190.89,"endTime":193.02,"body":"So, we don't tend to think"},{"startTime":190.89,"endTime":193.02,"body":"of this as assisted dying,"},{"startTime":193.02,"endTime":194.16,"body":"but in effect,"},{"startTime":194.16,"endTime":197.16,"body":"a patient can choose to refuse treatment"},{"startTime":197.16,"endTime":198.96,"body":"and that choice has to be respected."},{"startTime":198.96,"endTime":202.701,"body":"We cannot impose treatment on"},{"startTime":198.96,"endTime":202.701,"body":"patients who don't want it."},{"startTime":202.701,"endTime":205.8,"body":"Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss"},{"startTime":202.701,"endTime":205.8,"body":"affirms this in re B,"},{"startTime":205.8,"endTime":206.633,"body":"when she says,"},{"startTime":206.633,"endTime":208.987,"body":"\"If the patient having been"},{"startTime":206.633,"endTime":208.987,"body":"given the relevant information"},{"startTime":208.987,"endTime":210.217,"body":"\"and offered the available options,"},{"startTime":210.217,"endTime":211.957,"body":"\"chooses to refuse that decision,"},{"startTime":211.957,"endTime":214.237,"body":"\"that has to be respected by the doctors,"},{"startTime":214.237,"endTime":215.437,"body":"\"considerations of the best interest"},{"startTime":215.437,"endTime":217.68,"body":"\"of the patient are irrelevant.\""},{"startTime":217.68,"endTime":219.84,"body":"So, when a person is"},{"startTime":217.68,"endTime":219.84,"body":"competent and capacitive"},{"startTime":219.84,"endTime":222.63,"body":"and able to make their"},{"startTime":219.84,"endTime":222.63,"body":"own informed decisions,"},{"startTime":222.63,"endTime":224.52,"body":"it doesn't matter if we"},{"startTime":222.63,"endTime":224.52,"body":"think they make a decision"},{"startTime":224.52,"endTime":225.54,"body":"that's bad for them,"},{"startTime":225.54,"endTime":226.68,"body":"if they want to refuse treatment,"},{"startTime":226.68,"endTime":227.853,"body":"we have to respect it."},{"startTime":229.29,"endTime":232.77,"body":"There are other contexts in"},{"startTime":229.29,"endTime":232.77,"body":"with treatment is withdrawn."},{"startTime":232.77,"endTime":235.35,"body":"And I think it's really important"},{"startTime":232.77,"endTime":235.35,"body":"to understand this as well"},{"startTime":235.35,"endTime":236.52,"body":"is that there are situations"},{"startTime":236.52,"endTime":238.86,"body":"in which the doctor can"},{"startTime":236.52,"endTime":238.86,"body":"decide not to treat,"},{"startTime":238.86,"endTime":240.72,"body":"despite the patient's wishes."},{"startTime":240.72,"endTime":243.36,"body":"Now again, we don't think"},{"startTime":240.72,"endTime":243.36,"body":"of this as assisted dying,"},{"startTime":243.36,"endTime":245.79,"body":"but it is the case that"},{"startTime":243.36,"endTime":245.79,"body":"doctors can withdraw treatment"},{"startTime":245.79,"endTime":247.23,"body":"when they think it is futile."},{"startTime":247.23,"endTime":248.91,"body":"And the way to understand this"},{"startTime":248.91,"endTime":251.7,"body":"is that the law doesn't oblige"},{"startTime":248.91,"endTime":251.7,"body":"doctors to give treatments"},{"startTime":251.7,"endTime":253.86,"body":"that they don't think are in"},{"startTime":251.7,"endTime":253.86,"body":"the patient's best interest,"},{"startTime":253.86,"endTime":256.2,"body":"just because the patient demands it."},{"startTime":256.2,"endTime":260.39,"body":"And this was confirmed in Iron"},{"startTime":256.2,"endTime":260.39,"body":"Burke and the GMC in 2005."},{"startTime":260.39,"endTime":263.04,"body":"It was a case in which Leslie"},{"startTime":260.39,"endTime":263.04,"body":"Burke had cerebellar ataxia"},{"startTime":263.04,"endTime":265.11,"body":"and he would eventually"},{"startTime":263.04,"endTime":265.11,"body":"need artificial feeding"},{"startTime":265.11,"endTime":266.1,"body":"and he wanted assurance"},{"startTime":266.1,"endTime":268.41,"body":"that he would not have"},{"startTime":266.1,"endTime":268.41,"body":"feeding and hydration,"},{"startTime":268.41,"endTime":270.03,"body":"withdrawn from him when"},{"startTime":268.41,"endTime":270.03,"body":"he came incompetent"},{"startTime":270.03,"endTime":271.58,"body":"as he knew he eventually would."},{"startTime":272.61,"endTime":273.75,"body":"And the court of appeal decided"},{"startTime":273.75,"endTime":275.22,"body":"they couldn't give a prospective judgment"},{"startTime":275.22,"endTime":276.48,"body":"on a hypothetical question,"},{"startTime":276.48,"endTime":279.36,"body":"but they did confirm that"},{"startTime":276.48,"endTime":279.36,"body":"patients cannot demand treatment."},{"startTime":279.36,"endTime":281.73,"body":"It's at the doctor's"},{"startTime":279.36,"endTime":281.73,"body":"discretion to offer treatment"},{"startTime":281.73,"endTime":283.86,"body":"and there's no duty to do so."},{"startTime":283.86,"endTime":284.693,"body":"That said,"},{"startTime":284.693,"endTime":287.01,"body":"it's also the case that"},{"startTime":284.693,"endTime":287.01,"body":"a doctor does have a duty"},{"startTime":287.01,"endTime":289.71,"body":"to do what is reasonable"},{"startTime":287.01,"endTime":289.71,"body":"to keep a patient alive."},{"startTime":289.71,"endTime":292.8,"body":"And this usually includes"},{"startTime":289.71,"endTime":292.8,"body":"artificial feeding and hydration"},{"startTime":292.8,"endTime":294.54,"body":"and the only times that can be withdrawn"},{"startTime":294.54,"endTime":295.91,"body":"when the patient is non-competent"},{"startTime":295.91,"endTime":297.87,"body":"and hasn't been expressing a wish"},{"startTime":297.87,"endTime":300.956,"body":"to be kept alive prior"},{"startTime":297.87,"endTime":300.956,"body":"to losing competence."},{"startTime":300.956,"endTime":303.27,"body":"And so there is a tension there,"},{"startTime":303.27,"endTime":306.15,"body":"between what we expect of"},{"startTime":303.27,"endTime":306.15,"body":"doctors and what doctors must do"},{"startTime":306.15,"endTime":307.56,"body":"and what patients can request."},{"startTime":307.56,"endTime":308.61,"body":"But fundamentally,"},{"startTime":308.61,"endTime":310.327,"body":"doctors cannot be compelled to do things"},{"startTime":310.327,"endTime":312.142,"body":"that they think are wrong,"},{"startTime":312.142,"endTime":316.02,"body":"but at the same time they"},{"startTime":312.142,"endTime":316.02,"body":"must do what a competent"},{"startTime":316.02,"endTime":317.79,"body":"and reasonable doctor would do,"},{"startTime":317.79,"endTime":320.19,"body":"otherwise they would be"},{"startTime":317.79,"endTime":320.19,"body":"negligent in their care."},{"startTime":321.09,"endTime":322.89,"body":"So, there are contexts in which care,"},{"startTime":322.89,"endTime":325.14,"body":"even feeding and hydration"},{"startTime":322.89,"endTime":325.14,"body":"can be lawfully withdrawn."},{"startTime":325.14,"endTime":327.076,"body":"And the most high high profile"},{"startTime":325.14,"endTime":327.076,"body":"of those cases recently"},{"startTime":327.076,"endTime":330.72,"body":"is the Bland case from 1993."},{"startTime":330.72,"endTime":332.16,"body":"This concerned Tony Bland"},{"startTime":332.16,"endTime":334.38,"body":"who had been crushed in"},{"startTime":332.16,"endTime":334.38,"body":"the Hillsborough disaster"},{"startTime":334.38,"endTime":337.08,"body":"and oxygen had been cut off"},{"startTime":334.38,"endTime":337.08,"body":"to his brain for some time"},{"startTime":337.08,"endTime":338.88,"body":"and this led to severe"},{"startTime":337.08,"endTime":338.88,"body":"and irreversible damage"},{"startTime":338.88,"endTime":340.953,"body":"to the highest center of his brain."},{"startTime":342.24,"endTime":343.44,"body":"And the question in that case,"},{"startTime":343.44,"endTime":344.82,"body":"was whether or not it would be alright"},{"startTime":344.82,"endTime":346.71,"body":"to withdraw support from him."},{"startTime":346.71,"endTime":349.5,"body":"And here withdrawals"},{"startTime":346.71,"endTime":349.5,"body":"framed as an omission,"},{"startTime":349.5,"endTime":351.99,"body":"it was a failure to keep him alive."},{"startTime":351.99,"endTime":353.79,"body":"And did it include hydration and nutrition"},{"startTime":353.79,"endTime":356.4,"body":"with specific dimensions of this decision?"},{"startTime":356.4,"endTime":357.54,"body":"And within that,"},{"startTime":357.54,"endTime":359.7,"body":"the court considered whether"},{"startTime":357.54,"endTime":359.7,"body":"or not withdrawing treatment,"},{"startTime":359.7,"endTime":361.35,"body":"could ever be in someone's best interest."},{"startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.92,"body":"Can it be the case that it's"},{"startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.92,"body":"good for someone to die,"},{"startTime":364.92,"endTime":367.26,"body":"because it was thought it"},{"startTime":364.92,"endTime":367.26,"body":"effectively will say his life"},{"startTime":367.26,"endTime":368.193,"body":"has no value."},{"startTime":369.51,"endTime":371.37,"body":"But within that case,"},{"startTime":371.37,"endTime":374.07,"body":"the various lords expressed"},{"startTime":371.37,"endTime":374.07,"body":"a range of views on this"},{"startTime":374.07,"endTime":375.75,"body":"and explained that there may be context."},{"startTime":375.75,"endTime":377.01,"body":"And this was one of them"},{"startTime":377.01,"endTime":378.69,"body":"in which actually prolonging his treatment"},{"startTime":378.69,"endTime":381.42,"body":"to keeping him alive was"},{"startTime":378.69,"endTime":381.42,"body":"subjecting him to indignities"},{"startTime":381.42,"endTime":383.339,"body":"and distressing his family."},{"startTime":383.339,"endTime":387.12,"body":"Lord Keith said to an individual"},{"startTime":383.339,"endTime":387.12,"body":"with no cognitive capacity,"},{"startTime":387.12,"endTime":388.11,"body":"whatever,"},{"startTime":388.11,"endTime":390.66,"body":"and no prospect of ever"},{"startTime":388.11,"endTime":390.66,"body":"recovering any such capacity,"},{"startTime":390.66,"endTime":392.25,"body":"it must be a matter of"},{"startTime":390.66,"endTime":392.25,"body":"complete indifference,"},{"startTime":392.25,"endTime":393.24,"body":"whether he lives or dies."},{"startTime":393.24,"endTime":396.12,"body":"So, he was focusing on"},{"startTime":393.24,"endTime":396.12,"body":"the lack of capacity,"},{"startTime":396.12,"endTime":397.717,"body":"whereas Lord Keith also went on to say,"},{"startTime":397.717,"endTime":400.62,"body":"\"Existence impervious isn't"},{"startTime":397.717,"endTime":400.62,"body":"beneficial to a patient,\""},{"startTime":400.62,"endTime":402.81,"body":"whereas Lord Goff thought"},{"startTime":400.62,"endTime":402.81,"body":"it was about futility"},{"startTime":402.81,"endTime":406.17,"body":"and that that was a justification"},{"startTime":402.81,"endTime":406.17,"body":"to withdraw treatment."},{"startTime":406.17,"endTime":408.0,"body":"There were a series of cases after that"},{"startTime":408.0,"endTime":409.5,"body":"that sort of refined this"},{"startTime":409.5,"endTime":413.19,"body":"and confirmed it in cases of"},{"startTime":409.5,"endTime":413.19,"body":"pervious and non-pervious."},{"startTime":413.19,"endTime":414.36,"body":"But fundamentally,"},{"startTime":414.36,"endTime":417.06,"body":"the obligation to treat is not absolute"},{"startTime":417.06,"endTime":420.12,"body":"and you do not have to treat"},{"startTime":417.06,"endTime":420.12,"body":"as a doctor when it is futile."},{"startTime":420.12,"endTime":422.37,"body":"Now what I think the"},{"startTime":420.12,"endTime":422.37,"body":"reason to talk about these,"},{"startTime":422.37,"endTime":424.65,"body":"before we talk about"},{"startTime":422.37,"endTime":424.65,"body":"euthanasia and assisted suicide"},{"startTime":424.65,"endTime":426.75,"body":"is to say that there are"},{"startTime":424.65,"endTime":426.75,"body":"demonstrably contexts"},{"startTime":426.75,"endTime":428.76,"body":"in which doctors and"},{"startTime":426.75,"endTime":428.76,"body":"patients can take decisions"},{"startTime":428.76,"endTime":430.89,"body":"that lead to the ending of someone's life."},{"startTime":430.89,"endTime":433.38,"body":"And they illustrate the gray"},{"startTime":430.89,"endTime":433.38,"body":"area in which the discussion"},{"startTime":433.38,"endTime":435.99,"body":"and debate about"},{"startTime":433.38,"endTime":435.99,"body":"euthanasia has to operate."},{"startTime":435.99,"endTime":437.97,"body":"So medicine and the law"},{"startTime":435.99,"endTime":437.97,"body":"are always, I think,"},{"startTime":437.97,"endTime":440.343,"body":"walking a very complex and nuanced line."},{"startTime":441.221,"endTime":444.09,"body":"And I think also it's"},{"startTime":441.221,"endTime":444.09,"body":"worth keeping in mind,"},{"startTime":444.09,"endTime":447.42,"body":"whether we are being legally"},{"startTime":444.09,"endTime":447.42,"body":"and morally consistent"},{"startTime":447.42,"endTime":448.92,"body":"when we take a position on euthanasia"},{"startTime":448.92,"endTime":452.223,"body":"or assisted suicide with the"},{"startTime":448.92,"endTime":452.223,"body":"things that we already permit."},{"startTime":453.12,"endTime":454.98,"body":"We also need to ask ourselves questions."},{"startTime":454.98,"endTime":457.11,"body":"And I'll consider these in"},{"startTime":454.98,"endTime":457.11,"body":"the course of this lecture,"},{"startTime":457.11,"endTime":458.76,"body":"about whether or not it's more harmful"},{"startTime":458.76,"endTime":460.05,"body":"to permit someone to die slowly"},{"startTime":460.05,"endTime":461.37,"body":"when they refuse treatment"},{"startTime":461.37,"endTime":464.16,"body":"than to offer them a faster"},{"startTime":461.37,"endTime":464.16,"body":"means to the same end."},{"startTime":464.16,"endTime":467.31,"body":"And does it also matter"},{"startTime":464.16,"endTime":467.31,"body":"whether it is a mere omission"},{"startTime":467.31,"endTime":469.95,"body":"or an act that brings about their death?"},{"startTime":469.95,"endTime":471.93,"body":"So, now I want to turn"},{"startTime":469.95,"endTime":471.93,"body":"to the focus of my talk,"},{"startTime":471.93,"endTime":473.91,"body":"which is a euthanasia"},{"startTime":471.93,"endTime":473.91,"body":"and assisted suicide."},{"startTime":473.91,"endTime":474.743,"body":"So as I said,"},{"startTime":474.743,"endTime":477.54,"body":"euthanasia is the ending of"},{"startTime":474.743,"endTime":477.54,"body":"someone's life for their benefit"},{"startTime":477.54,"endTime":479.22,"body":"and it is illegal."},{"startTime":479.22,"endTime":481.29,"body":"But there are important"},{"startTime":479.22,"endTime":481.29,"body":"distinctions to make"},{"startTime":481.29,"endTime":483.84,"body":"when we think about euthanasia."},{"startTime":483.84,"endTime":485.88,"body":"All euthanasia is not the same."},{"startTime":485.88,"endTime":486.99,"body":"Voluntary euthanasia"},{"startTime":486.99,"endTime":489.69,"body":"is when a person makes a conscious"},{"startTime":486.99,"endTime":489.69,"body":"competent decision to die"},{"startTime":489.69,"endTime":491.73,"body":"and they ask someone to do this for them,"},{"startTime":491.73,"endTime":494.16,"body":"so they do not end their own life."},{"startTime":494.16,"endTime":495.51,"body":"Non-voluntary euthanasia"},{"startTime":495.51,"endTime":497.94,"body":"is when a person takes a"},{"startTime":495.51,"endTime":497.94,"body":"decision on someone else's behalf"},{"startTime":497.94,"endTime":499.32,"body":"to end their life."},{"startTime":499.32,"endTime":502.26,"body":"And even within that"},{"startTime":499.32,"endTime":502.26,"body":"there are distinctions."},{"startTime":502.26,"endTime":503.58,"body":"That might be because the person"},{"startTime":503.58,"endTime":506.19,"body":"has previously expressed"},{"startTime":503.58,"endTime":506.19,"body":"a wish in the past"},{"startTime":506.19,"endTime":508.272,"body":"and now they're reflecting it."},{"startTime":508.272,"endTime":510.18,"body":"But where it doesn't tally"},{"startTime":510.18,"endTime":511.68,"body":"with what the person actually wanted,"},{"startTime":511.68,"endTime":514.17,"body":"we would be better off calling"},{"startTime":511.68,"endTime":514.17,"body":"it involuntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":514.17,"endTime":516.45,"body":"And that is the case where"},{"startTime":514.17,"endTime":516.45,"body":"someone makes a decision,"},{"startTime":516.45,"endTime":519.63,"body":"despite what the patient wants themselves."},{"startTime":519.63,"endTime":522.0,"body":"Now, the kind of euthanasia"},{"startTime":519.63,"endTime":522.0,"body":"I'm focusing on today"},{"startTime":522.0,"endTime":523.32,"body":"is voluntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":523.32,"endTime":524.79,"body":"There's no suggestion"},{"startTime":524.79,"endTime":527.07,"body":"in any of the present"},{"startTime":524.79,"endTime":527.07,"body":"debates I think in the Lords"},{"startTime":527.07,"endTime":528.599,"body":"and so on when bills have been made"},{"startTime":528.599,"endTime":531.15,"body":"that we're moving towards"},{"startTime":528.599,"endTime":531.15,"body":"involuntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":531.15,"endTime":533.91,"body":"And that would be deeply"},{"startTime":531.15,"endTime":533.91,"body":"problematic for many reasons"},{"startTime":533.91,"endTime":535.11,"body":"that I don't wish to go into today,"},{"startTime":535.11,"endTime":536.82,"body":"because I think the real"},{"startTime":535.11,"endTime":536.82,"body":"debate at the moment"},{"startTime":536.82,"endTime":539.583,"body":"is about assisted suicide"},{"startTime":536.82,"endTime":539.583,"body":"and voluntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":541.02,"endTime":542.82,"body":"Assisted suicide is where somebody,"},{"startTime":542.82,"endTime":545.04,"body":"needs the assistance of someone"},{"startTime":542.82,"endTime":545.04,"body":"else to kill themselves."},{"startTime":545.04,"endTime":547.32,"body":"So, they do the act"},{"startTime":545.04,"endTime":547.32,"body":"themselves in some form,"},{"startTime":547.32,"endTime":551.88,"body":"but they cannot access the means"},{"startTime":547.32,"endTime":551.88,"body":"or the method on their own."},{"startTime":551.88,"endTime":554.01,"body":"Now, assisted suicide is illegal as well,"},{"startTime":554.01,"endTime":555.81,"body":"under the terms of the Suicide Act"},{"startTime":555.81,"endTime":558.78,"body":"and it's punishable by up to 14 years."},{"startTime":558.78,"endTime":561.33,"body":"However, trying to kill"},{"startTime":558.78,"endTime":561.33,"body":"yourself without assistance"},{"startTime":561.33,"endTime":563.01,"body":"is not itself a crime."},{"startTime":563.01,"endTime":564.27,"body":"So, assists a suicide in the law"},{"startTime":564.27,"endTime":565.95,"body":"and it's unusual in the sense that it"},{"startTime":565.95,"endTime":567.9,"body":"is a criminal offense to"},{"startTime":565.95,"endTime":567.9,"body":"help someone do something,"},{"startTime":567.9,"endTime":570.12,"body":"which is not itself criminal."},{"startTime":570.12,"endTime":571.26,"body":"So, the key distinction here"},{"startTime":571.26,"endTime":572.46,"body":"is whether or not is a doctor"},{"startTime":572.46,"endTime":573.96,"body":"or another person causing their death"},{"startTime":573.96,"endTime":575.49,"body":"or the person who does it for themselves,"},{"startTime":575.49,"endTime":576.573,"body":"but with assistance."},{"startTime":577.44,"endTime":579.66,"body":"Now, why would anybody"},{"startTime":577.44,"endTime":579.66,"body":"seek either of these?"},{"startTime":579.66,"endTime":581.49,"body":"I think most of us are"},{"startTime":579.66,"endTime":581.49,"body":"probably familiar with that,"},{"startTime":581.49,"endTime":584.556,"body":"but I think it's important"},{"startTime":581.49,"endTime":584.556,"body":"to hear some examples"},{"startTime":584.556,"endTime":586.95,"body":"from people who want change"},{"startTime":586.95,"endTime":589.47,"body":"or have pressed for change in the law."},{"startTime":589.47,"endTime":590.76,"body":"One of the most famous of these,"},{"startTime":590.76,"endTime":593.61,"body":"I'm sure everybody has heard"},{"startTime":590.76,"endTime":593.61,"body":"of him, is Tony Nicklinson."},{"startTime":593.61,"endTime":595.95,"body":"Tony Nicklinson, if you don't"},{"startTime":593.61,"endTime":595.95,"body":"know had locked-in syndrome."},{"startTime":595.95,"endTime":597.96,"body":"He couldn't talk, he"},{"startTime":595.95,"endTime":597.96,"body":"couldn't feed himself,"},{"startTime":597.96,"endTime":599.79,"body":"he was unable to move except for his eyes"},{"startTime":599.79,"endTime":602.13,"body":"and he was entirely dependent"},{"startTime":599.79,"endTime":602.13,"body":"on others for his care."},{"startTime":602.13,"endTime":602.987,"body":"But he wasn't terminally ill."},{"startTime":602.987,"endTime":605.4,"body":"So, he was likely to live for some years,"},{"startTime":605.4,"endTime":607.32,"body":"in fact potentially decades."},{"startTime":607.32,"endTime":609.504,"body":"But he was unable to take his own life."},{"startTime":609.504,"endTime":613.47,"body":"Now, he wanted to end his"},{"startTime":609.504,"endTime":613.47,"body":"life but he wasn't able to."},{"startTime":613.47,"endTime":615.51,"body":"And he brought a challenge to the law."},{"startTime":615.51,"endTime":618.81,"body":"He described his life at"},{"startTime":615.51,"endTime":618.81,"body":"the time as dull, miserable,"},{"startTime":618.81,"endTime":621.9,"body":"demeaning, undignified and intolerable."},{"startTime":621.9,"endTime":625.11,"body":"And in another statement he"},{"startTime":621.9,"endTime":625.11,"body":"put a slightly more sharp edge"},{"startTime":625.11,"endTime":626.197,"body":"to his comments and said,"},{"startTime":626.197,"endTime":629.257,"body":"\"You try defecating to order"},{"startTime":626.197,"endTime":629.257,"body":"while suspended in a sling,"},{"startTime":629.257,"endTime":631.62,"body":"\"over a commode and see how you get on.\""},{"startTime":631.62,"endTime":635.97,"body":"So, he did really try to"},{"startTime":631.62,"endTime":635.97,"body":"express the way his life was"},{"startTime":635.97,"endTime":637.503,"body":"and why he wanted to end it."},{"startTime":638.49,"endTime":640.95,"body":"We also have Lord"},{"startTime":638.49,"endTime":640.95,"body":"Browne-Wilkinson speaking"},{"startTime":640.95,"endTime":642.66,"body":"in the Bland case,"},{"startTime":642.66,"endTime":644.85,"body":"talking about how it might"},{"startTime":642.66,"endTime":644.85,"body":"actually seem irrational"},{"startTime":644.85,"endTime":647.13,"body":"to keep the law as it currently stands."},{"startTime":647.13,"endTime":648.3,"body":"And where he says,"},{"startTime":648.3,"endTime":649.133,"body":"\"How can it be lawful"},{"startTime":649.133,"endTime":650.707,"body":"\"to allow a patient to die"},{"startTime":649.133,"endTime":650.707,"body":"slowly though painlessly,"},{"startTime":650.707,"endTime":653.017,"body":"\"over a period of weeks"},{"startTime":650.707,"endTime":653.017,"body":"from a lack of food,"},{"startTime":653.017,"endTime":655.177,"body":"\"but unlawful to produce"},{"startTime":653.017,"endTime":655.177,"body":"his immediate death"},{"startTime":655.177,"endTime":656.077,"body":"\"by lethal injection,"},{"startTime":656.077,"endTime":657.997,"body":"\"thereby saving his family from yes,"},{"startTime":657.997,"endTime":659.617,"body":"\"another ordeal to add to the tragedy"},{"startTime":659.617,"endTime":660.907,"body":"\"that has already struck them?"},{"startTime":660.907,"endTime":661.74,"body":"\"I find it difficult"},{"startTime":661.74,"endTime":663.307,"body":"\"to find a moral answer to that question,"},{"startTime":663.307,"endTime":665.367,"body":"\"but it is undoubtedly the law.\""},{"startTime":666.63,"endTime":669.18,"body":"So, people in Tony"},{"startTime":666.63,"endTime":669.18,"body":"Nicklison in similar cases,"},{"startTime":669.18,"endTime":670.56,"body":"the reason they want euthanasia"},{"startTime":670.56,"endTime":672.57,"body":"is because they cannot"},{"startTime":670.56,"endTime":672.57,"body":"commit suicide themselves."},{"startTime":672.57,"endTime":674.25,"body":"They are incapacitated"},{"startTime":674.25,"endTime":677.19,"body":"and they cannot in"},{"startTime":674.25,"endTime":677.19,"body":"their life on their own."},{"startTime":677.19,"endTime":680.34,"body":"Those who seek assisted suicide do so,"},{"startTime":680.34,"endTime":681.81,"body":"because of course voluntary euthanasia"},{"startTime":681.81,"endTime":683.94,"body":"in this country isn't lawful,"},{"startTime":683.94,"endTime":685.23,"body":"but they cannot access the means"},{"startTime":685.23,"endTime":686.85,"body":"to commit suicide themselves"},{"startTime":686.85,"endTime":688.83,"body":"or they can't bring themselves to do it"},{"startTime":688.83,"endTime":690.0,"body":"and do what it might take"},{"startTime":690.0,"endTime":691.92,"body":"to do it in the way that"},{"startTime":690.0,"endTime":691.92,"body":"they would have to do it"},{"startTime":691.92,"endTime":693.21,"body":"on their own."},{"startTime":693.21,"endTime":695.46,"body":"Now, people can be"},{"startTime":693.21,"endTime":695.46,"body":"helped to commit suicide"},{"startTime":695.46,"endTime":696.63,"body":"in a range of ways."},{"startTime":696.63,"endTime":698.79,"body":"One will be affording them access to drugs"},{"startTime":698.79,"endTime":700.08,"body":"that might end their life."},{"startTime":700.08,"endTime":701.88,"body":"Another way to assist suicide"},{"startTime":701.88,"endTime":703.708,"body":"is to help them to travel to somewhere"},{"startTime":703.708,"endTime":706.32,"body":"to where they can commit suicide."},{"startTime":706.32,"endTime":708.12,"body":"And an example of that"},{"startTime":706.32,"endTime":708.12,"body":"that you'll be familiar"},{"startTime":708.12,"endTime":709.98,"body":"with of course is travel to Switzerland"},{"startTime":709.98,"endTime":711.96,"body":"to the Dignitas Clinic."},{"startTime":711.96,"endTime":714.18,"body":"And there they may be assisted by anyone"},{"startTime":714.18,"endTime":715.56,"body":"who helps them to get to the clinic."},{"startTime":715.56,"endTime":718.95,"body":"And that was the subject of"},{"startTime":715.56,"endTime":718.95,"body":"some of the high profile cases"},{"startTime":718.95,"endTime":720.63,"body":"that you might have heard of."},{"startTime":720.63,"endTime":722.227,"body":"So, when people go to Dignitas,"},{"startTime":722.227,"endTime":724.56,"body":"it is a clinic where they'll"},{"startTime":722.227,"endTime":724.56,"body":"have a number of meetings"},{"startTime":724.56,"endTime":726.54,"body":"with the staff and then"},{"startTime":724.56,"endTime":726.54,"body":"they'll be provided"},{"startTime":726.54,"endTime":728.49,"body":"with the means to commit suicide,"},{"startTime":728.49,"endTime":731.43,"body":"which they do so by"},{"startTime":728.49,"endTime":731.43,"body":"taking medication orally."},{"startTime":731.43,"endTime":733.83,"body":"It costs thousands of pounds"},{"startTime":731.43,"endTime":733.83,"body":"and it requires travel,"},{"startTime":733.83,"endTime":735.84,"body":"so for some people that"},{"startTime":733.83,"endTime":735.84,"body":"isn't actually an option,"},{"startTime":735.84,"endTime":737.61,"body":"either because they don't have the means"},{"startTime":737.61,"endTime":739.683,"body":"or they aren't actually able to travel."},{"startTime":740.88,"endTime":744.363,"body":"So, what is the current"},{"startTime":740.88,"endTime":744.363,"body":"law in a bit more detail?"},{"startTime":745.74,"endTime":747.69,"body":"Well, with assisted suicide,"},{"startTime":747.69,"endTime":751.8,"body":"suicide ceased to be a crime"},{"startTime":747.69,"endTime":751.8,"body":"under the 1961 Suicide Act."},{"startTime":751.8,"endTime":753.27,"body":"But it is clear that helping someone"},{"startTime":753.27,"endTime":756.06,"body":"to commit suicide is a crime."},{"startTime":756.06,"endTime":759.27,"body":"The act goes through in"},{"startTime":756.06,"endTime":759.27,"body":"some detail what it means"},{"startTime":759.27,"endTime":763.08,"body":"or what complicity in someone"},{"startTime":759.27,"endTime":763.08,"body":"else's suicide entails."},{"startTime":763.08,"endTime":765.93,"body":"It means encouraging them or"},{"startTime":763.08,"endTime":765.93,"body":"assisting them, aiding them,"},{"startTime":765.93,"endTime":769.14,"body":"abetting them, counseling"},{"startTime":765.93,"endTime":769.14,"body":"them or procuring them means."},{"startTime":769.14,"endTime":770.73,"body":"So, it goes into quite a lot of detail."},{"startTime":770.73,"endTime":773.04,"body":"Say all of these things where you are"},{"startTime":773.04,"endTime":777.06,"body":"in some way involved in"},{"startTime":773.04,"endTime":777.06,"body":"somebody else's suicide,"},{"startTime":777.06,"endTime":778.053,"body":"will be captured."},{"startTime":779.58,"endTime":782.7,"body":"Even arranging for one"},{"startTime":779.58,"endTime":782.7,"body":"person to do an act,"},{"startTime":782.7,"endTime":785.61,"body":"might be treated as"},{"startTime":782.7,"endTime":785.61,"body":"meaning you are involved."},{"startTime":785.61,"endTime":787.68,"body":"It also includes putting"},{"startTime":785.61,"endTime":787.68,"body":"pressure on someone"},{"startTime":787.68,"endTime":789.3,"body":"and threatening them to anything"},{"startTime":789.3,"endTime":790.98,"body":"that might lead to somebody else's suicide"},{"startTime":790.98,"endTime":792.363,"body":"is captured by the act."},{"startTime":793.2,"endTime":795.57,"body":"Now, this law has come"},{"startTime":793.2,"endTime":795.57,"body":"under a series of challenges"},{"startTime":795.57,"endTime":796.86,"body":"and I want to take you through the history"},{"startTime":796.86,"endTime":800.04,"body":"of the challenges to the act,"},{"startTime":800.04,"endTime":803.16,"body":"so that you understand"},{"startTime":800.04,"endTime":803.16,"body":"why we are where we are."},{"startTime":803.16,"endTime":804.51,"body":"The first of these is Pretty."},{"startTime":804.51,"endTime":808.14,"body":"The case of Pretty in the UK from 2002."},{"startTime":808.14,"endTime":810.63,"body":"So, Mrs Pretty suffered"},{"startTime":808.14,"endTime":810.63,"body":"from motor neuron disease,"},{"startTime":810.63,"endTime":812.25,"body":"which is a progressive"},{"startTime":810.63,"endTime":812.25,"body":"degenerative disorder"},{"startTime":812.25,"endTime":813.42,"body":"that leads to death."},{"startTime":813.42,"endTime":816.24,"body":"And she sought an undertaken"},{"startTime":813.42,"endTime":816.24,"body":"from the DPP that her husband,"},{"startTime":816.24,"endTime":819.27,"body":"would not be prosecuted if he"},{"startTime":816.24,"endTime":819.27,"body":"helped her to commit suicide."},{"startTime":819.27,"endTime":821.19,"body":"But the DPP refused."},{"startTime":821.19,"endTime":822.75,"body":"He would only determine how to act,"},{"startTime":822.75,"endTime":824.73,"body":"once he had the facts before him."},{"startTime":824.73,"endTime":826.56,"body":"So, of course this caused a great anxiety,"},{"startTime":826.56,"endTime":828.87,"body":"because she worried that"},{"startTime":826.56,"endTime":828.87,"body":"if her husband did help her"},{"startTime":828.87,"endTime":831.09,"body":"that after she died he would"},{"startTime":828.87,"endTime":831.09,"body":"be subject to prosecution,"},{"startTime":831.09,"endTime":832.14,"body":"which he didn't want."},{"startTime":833.07,"endTime":836.22,"body":"So, she sought judicial"},{"startTime":833.07,"endTime":836.22,"body":"review of his decision."},{"startTime":836.22,"endTime":838.77,"body":"Now, in the case she raised"},{"startTime":836.22,"endTime":838.77,"body":"a range of arguments,"},{"startTime":838.77,"endTime":841.17,"body":"relating to her human rights"},{"startTime":841.17,"endTime":844.86,"body":"and one was she said that her"},{"startTime":841.17,"endTime":844.86,"body":"Article Two, Right to Life,"},{"startTime":844.86,"endTime":847.74,"body":"included a right to determine"},{"startTime":844.86,"endTime":847.74,"body":"the manner of her own death"},{"startTime":847.74,"endTime":850.19,"body":"and that this included a"},{"startTime":847.74,"endTime":850.19,"body":"right to commit suicide."},{"startTime":851.04,"endTime":852.36,"body":"So that it was a right"},{"startTime":852.36,"endTime":853.8,"body":"that encompassed all of your decisions,"},{"startTime":853.8,"endTime":855.873,"body":"about how your life runs in that sense."},{"startTime":856.887,"endTime":858.9,"body":"She also argued that Article Three,"},{"startTime":858.9,"endTime":860.389,"body":"the prohibition on torture,"},{"startTime":860.389,"endTime":863.25,"body":"meant that actually this"},{"startTime":860.389,"endTime":863.25,"body":"prohibition on assisting her"},{"startTime":863.25,"endTime":867.27,"body":"to commit suicide left her in"},{"startTime":863.25,"endTime":867.27,"body":"an inhumane and degraded state"},{"startTime":867.27,"endTime":869.49,"body":"that essentially forcing"},{"startTime":867.27,"endTime":869.49,"body":"her to be in a position"},{"startTime":869.49,"endTime":871.23,"body":"where she couldn't end her own life"},{"startTime":871.23,"endTime":874.23,"body":"or be assisted to do so"},{"startTime":871.23,"endTime":874.23,"body":"was a form of inhumane"},{"startTime":874.23,"endTime":876.24,"body":"and torturous behavior towards her."},{"startTime":876.24,"endTime":877.86,"body":"And that therefore this happened,"},{"startTime":877.86,"endTime":879.39,"body":"due to the actions of the state,"},{"startTime":879.39,"endTime":881.52,"body":"that they were the ones"},{"startTime":879.39,"endTime":881.52,"body":"putting her in this position"},{"startTime":881.52,"endTime":884.22,"body":"and therefore it was a breach"},{"startTime":881.52,"endTime":884.22,"body":"for Article Three right."},{"startTime":885.69,"endTime":887.4,"body":"She further argued that this"},{"startTime":885.69,"endTime":887.4,"body":"was a breach of her right"},{"startTime":887.4,"endTime":889.38,"body":"to privacy under Article Eight."},{"startTime":889.38,"endTime":890.97,"body":"So she said that"},{"startTime":889.38,"endTime":890.97,"body":"decisions about how to die"},{"startTime":890.97,"endTime":892.14,"body":"were a matter of privacy,"},{"startTime":892.14,"endTime":894.06,"body":"a matter of individual conscience."},{"startTime":894.06,"endTime":896.07,"body":"And then in denying her the ability to die"},{"startTime":896.07,"endTime":899.25,"body":"in a manner of her choosing"},{"startTime":896.07,"endTime":899.25,"body":"her privacy was violated."},{"startTime":899.25,"endTime":901.17,"body":"And this is akin to the sort"},{"startTime":899.25,"endTime":901.17,"body":"of arguments you see made,"},{"startTime":901.17,"endTime":902.973,"body":"about abortion in Article Eight."},{"startTime":904.32,"endTime":906.42,"body":"And also she raised Article Nine,"},{"startTime":906.42,"endTime":908.013,"body":"Freedom of Religion and Belief."},{"startTime":909.24,"endTime":910.26,"body":"The House of Lords found"},{"startTime":910.26,"endTime":913.44,"body":"that there was no prima facie"},{"startTime":910.26,"endTime":913.44,"body":"violation of her rights."},{"startTime":913.44,"endTime":915.48,"body":"They said that actually"},{"startTime":913.44,"endTime":915.48,"body":"assisting in abetting suicide,"},{"startTime":915.48,"endTime":918.69,"body":"doesn't undermine her"},{"startTime":915.48,"endTime":918.69,"body":"rights under Article 2389"},{"startTime":918.69,"endTime":919.8,"body":"or Article 14,"},{"startTime":919.8,"endTime":921.81,"body":"Freedom from Discrimination"},{"startTime":921.81,"endTime":923.37,"body":"and that the Convention of Human Rights,"},{"startTime":923.37,"endTime":925.65,"body":"didn't require states to"},{"startTime":923.37,"endTime":925.65,"body":"permit assisting in suicide,"},{"startTime":925.65,"endTime":927.6,"body":"that any effect on her"},{"startTime":925.65,"endTime":927.6,"body":"rights was reasonable"},{"startTime":927.6,"endTime":928.62,"body":"and proportionate."},{"startTime":928.62,"endTime":931.47,"body":"And so the DPP could exercise"},{"startTime":928.62,"endTime":931.47,"body":"its discretion as he chose."},{"startTime":932.67,"endTime":935.64,"body":"She took her claim to the"},{"startTime":932.67,"endTime":935.64,"body":"European Court of Human Rights,"},{"startTime":935.64,"endTime":938.94,"body":"they also rejected her claim"},{"startTime":935.64,"endTime":938.94,"body":"and they said that Article Two,"},{"startTime":938.94,"endTime":940.74,"body":"The Right to Life doesn't"},{"startTime":938.94,"endTime":940.74,"body":"have a negative aspect."},{"startTime":940.74,"endTime":942.327,"body":"It doesn't include a right to die."},{"startTime":942.327,"endTime":944.19,"body":"And they said that Article Three,"},{"startTime":944.19,"endTime":946.8,"body":"death from natural illness"},{"startTime":944.19,"endTime":946.8,"body":"while still provided treatment,"},{"startTime":946.8,"endTime":948.33,"body":"doesn't equate to torture either."},{"startTime":948.33,"endTime":950.52,"body":"So, it wasn't a breach of Article Three"},{"startTime":950.52,"endTime":952.86,"body":"and they didn't consider"},{"startTime":950.52,"endTime":952.86,"body":"that a belief in euthanasia"},{"startTime":952.86,"endTime":954.9,"body":"was the kind of right"},{"startTime":952.86,"endTime":954.9,"body":"protected by Article Nine."},{"startTime":954.9,"endTime":957.66,"body":"The right to Freedom"},{"startTime":954.9,"endTime":957.66,"body":"of Religion and Belief."},{"startTime":957.66,"endTime":958.53,"body":"They didn't, however,"},{"startTime":958.53,"endTime":960.51,"body":"reject the possibility"},{"startTime":958.53,"endTime":960.51,"body":"that Article Eight rights,"},{"startTime":960.51,"endTime":961.53,"body":"might be invoked."},{"startTime":961.53,"endTime":963.12,"body":"So, they did see that"},{"startTime":961.53,"endTime":963.12,"body":"this might be a matter"},{"startTime":963.12,"endTime":964.95,"body":"of private decision making,"},{"startTime":964.95,"endTime":966.87,"body":"but they also felt that"},{"startTime":964.95,"endTime":966.87,"body":"there were strong reasons"},{"startTime":966.87,"endTime":969.18,"body":"in favor of the UK Suicide Act provisions."},{"startTime":969.18,"endTime":970.5,"body":"And so in effect,"},{"startTime":970.5,"endTime":972.54,"body":"her convention rights"},{"startTime":970.5,"endTime":972.54,"body":"weren't impinged upon,"},{"startTime":972.54,"endTime":975.963,"body":"because it was a proportionate"},{"startTime":972.54,"endTime":975.963,"body":"step by the UK Government."},{"startTime":978.24,"endTime":980.52,"body":"Some years later that having failed,"},{"startTime":980.52,"endTime":982.2,"body":"a new challenge was brought"},{"startTime":982.2,"endTime":985.65,"body":"and this time by Debbie Purdy in 2009."},{"startTime":985.65,"endTime":987.96,"body":"So, Debbie Purdy suffered"},{"startTime":985.65,"endTime":987.96,"body":"from multiple sclerosis,"},{"startTime":987.96,"endTime":990.0,"body":"which is also a progressive"},{"startTime":987.96,"endTime":990.0,"body":"generative disease."},{"startTime":990.0,"endTime":992.37,"body":"And she also was concerned"},{"startTime":990.0,"endTime":992.37,"body":"about what would happen"},{"startTime":992.37,"endTime":994.65,"body":"to her husband if he helped"},{"startTime":992.37,"endTime":994.65,"body":"her to commit suicide."},{"startTime":994.65,"endTime":995.67,"body":"In her case,"},{"startTime":995.67,"endTime":999.0,"body":"she wanted to travel to"},{"startTime":995.67,"endTime":999.0,"body":"Switzerland to commit suicide"},{"startTime":999.0,"endTime":1000.38,"body":"and she would need her husband's help"},{"startTime":1000.38,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"if she left it until the later"},{"startTime":1000.38,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"stages of of the disease."},{"startTime":1004.04,"endTime":1006.53,"body":"And she was considering"},{"startTime":1004.04,"endTime":1006.53,"body":"having to go earlier"},{"startTime":1006.53,"endTime":1007.363,"body":"if he couldn't help her,"},{"startTime":1007.363,"endTime":1009.5,"body":"which is I think an important"},{"startTime":1007.363,"endTime":1009.5,"body":"thing to keep in mind"},{"startTime":1009.5,"endTime":1011.69,"body":"is that people may choose to go sooner"},{"startTime":1011.69,"endTime":1013.52,"body":"if they worry that they put"},{"startTime":1011.69,"endTime":1013.52,"body":"their loved ones at risk"},{"startTime":1013.52,"endTime":1015.27,"body":"and that was certainly her concern."},{"startTime":1016.34,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"So, what she sought was not to"},{"startTime":1016.34,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"reopen the pretty challenge,"},{"startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1020.24,"body":"which had obviously failed,"},{"startTime":1020.24,"endTime":1022.707,"body":"but instead to take a"},{"startTime":1020.24,"endTime":1022.707,"body":"different tack and say,"},{"startTime":1022.707,"endTime":1024.897,"body":"\"Well, what they really"},{"startTime":1022.707,"endTime":1024.897,"body":"needed was clarification"},{"startTime":1024.897,"endTime":1027.027,"body":"\"from the DPP on the application"},{"startTime":1027.027,"endTime":1028.587,"body":"\"of the Suicide Act provisions"},{"startTime":1028.587,"endTime":1030.23,"body":"\"to those who assist in suicide.\""},{"startTime":1030.23,"endTime":1032.9,"body":"So, she accepted that"},{"startTime":1030.23,"endTime":1032.9,"body":"the DPP might prosecute,"},{"startTime":1032.9,"endTime":1034.61,"body":"but what she was asking for was the DPP"},{"startTime":1034.61,"endTime":1036.26,"body":"to give clarity about when he or she,"},{"startTime":1036.26,"endTime":1038.423,"body":"in this case he would do so."},{"startTime":1039.41,"endTime":1040.79,"body":"So, she argued that the DPP"},{"startTime":1040.79,"endTime":1042.803,"body":"was clearly exercising his discretion"},{"startTime":1042.803,"endTime":1045.08,"body":"in not prosecuting"},{"startTime":1042.803,"endTime":1045.08,"body":"people who helped others"},{"startTime":1045.08,"endTime":1046.597,"body":"to go to Switzerland to commit suicide."},{"startTime":1046.597,"endTime":1048.71,"body":"'Cause about a hundred"},{"startTime":1046.597,"endTime":1048.71,"body":"people had already done so,"},{"startTime":1048.71,"endTime":1051.77,"body":"so demonstrably he wasn't prosecuting"},{"startTime":1051.77,"endTime":1053.66,"body":"and therefore he must, she argued,"},{"startTime":1053.66,"endTime":1055.67,"body":"have some criteria to determine"},{"startTime":1055.67,"endTime":1057.98,"body":"when he chose not to prosecute"},{"startTime":1057.98,"endTime":1059.6,"body":"and that these should be made public"},{"startTime":1059.6,"endTime":1061.04,"body":"and that the failure to do so,"},{"startTime":1061.04,"endTime":1063.29,"body":"was an infringement of"},{"startTime":1061.04,"endTime":1063.29,"body":"her convention rights."},{"startTime":1064.16,"endTime":1066.71,"body":"The divisional court"},{"startTime":1064.16,"endTime":1066.71,"body":"applied Pretty and said,"},{"startTime":1066.71,"endTime":1068.27,"body":"no, her rights were not infringed"},{"startTime":1068.27,"endTime":1070.04,"body":"and it wasn't disproportionate,"},{"startTime":1070.04,"endTime":1072.35,"body":"but she was given leave to appeal."},{"startTime":1072.35,"endTime":1074.03,"body":"Now, before the case went to appeal,"},{"startTime":1074.03,"endTime":1076.55,"body":"the DPP actually released"},{"startTime":1074.03,"endTime":1076.55,"body":"detailed guidance"},{"startTime":1076.55,"endTime":1078.38,"body":"on his reasoning in another case."},{"startTime":1078.38,"endTime":1080.66,"body":"And this was a case"},{"startTime":1078.38,"endTime":1080.66,"body":"where the family members,"},{"startTime":1080.66,"endTime":1083.48,"body":"had helped a young man called Daniel James"},{"startTime":1083.48,"endTime":1084.74,"body":"to travel to Dignitas."},{"startTime":1084.74,"endTime":1086.6,"body":"Now Daniel James had been a rugby player"},{"startTime":1086.6,"endTime":1088.37,"body":"and he had been paralyzed in an accident"},{"startTime":1088.37,"endTime":1089.543,"body":"and he wanted to die."},{"startTime":1090.53,"endTime":1093.14,"body":"And what the DPP explained in his guidance"},{"startTime":1093.14,"endTime":1094.31,"body":"on his reasoning in that case"},{"startTime":1094.31,"endTime":1097.347,"body":"where he didn't prosecute was he'd said,"},{"startTime":1097.347,"endTime":1099.057,"body":"\"Well, things that had"},{"startTime":1097.347,"endTime":1099.057,"body":"suggested the prosecution"},{"startTime":1099.057,"endTime":1101.067,"body":"\"was appropriate were that suicide,"},{"startTime":1101.067,"endTime":1102.98,"body":"\"assisting suicide was a serious offense.\""},{"startTime":1102.98,"endTime":1104.9,"body":"So, he affirmed the law,"},{"startTime":1104.9,"endTime":1107.42,"body":"but he also said that there"},{"startTime":1104.9,"endTime":1107.42,"body":"were factors suggesting"},{"startTime":1107.42,"endTime":1109.49,"body":"that prosecution was inappropriate."},{"startTime":1109.49,"endTime":1111.5,"body":"And one of those was"},{"startTime":1109.49,"endTime":1111.5,"body":"that James had attempted"},{"startTime":1111.5,"endTime":1114.86,"body":"to commit suicide and seemed"},{"startTime":1111.5,"endTime":1114.86,"body":"likely to continue trying."},{"startTime":1114.86,"endTime":1117.5,"body":"Another was the assistance given was minor"},{"startTime":1117.5,"endTime":1119.48,"body":"and that none of those"},{"startTime":1117.5,"endTime":1119.48,"body":"assisting stood to gain"},{"startTime":1119.48,"endTime":1120.313,"body":"from his death"},{"startTime":1120.313,"endTime":1122.3,"body":"and that they had tried"},{"startTime":1120.313,"endTime":1122.3,"body":"to talk him out of it."},{"startTime":1122.3,"endTime":1123.133,"body":"In fact,"},{"startTime":1123.133,"endTime":1124.85,"body":"they had booked him a"},{"startTime":1123.133,"endTime":1124.85,"body":"return ticket to Switzerland"},{"startTime":1124.85,"endTime":1126.59,"body":"in the hope that he would"},{"startTime":1124.85,"endTime":1126.59,"body":"actually change his mind."},{"startTime":1126.59,"endTime":1128.96,"body":"So, they demonstrably were"},{"startTime":1126.59,"endTime":1128.96,"body":"hoping that he wouldn't,"},{"startTime":1128.96,"endTime":1131.54,"body":"but he had a settle desire to end his life"},{"startTime":1131.54,"endTime":1133.54,"body":"and they supported him in pursuing that."},{"startTime":1134.87,"endTime":1136.61,"body":"The Court of Appeal"},{"startTime":1134.87,"endTime":1136.61,"body":"dismissed Purdy's claim,"},{"startTime":1136.61,"endTime":1138.41,"body":"the DPP could not and should not guarantee"},{"startTime":1138.41,"endTime":1139.243,"body":"that he wouldn't prosecute."},{"startTime":1139.243,"endTime":1141.527,"body":"So, you couldn't bind the"},{"startTime":1139.243,"endTime":1141.527,"body":"DPP to say when he would"},{"startTime":1141.527,"endTime":1143.33,"body":"and wouldn't prosecute."},{"startTime":1143.33,"endTime":1145.91,"body":"And they also said there"},{"startTime":1143.33,"endTime":1145.91,"body":"was enough guidance now"},{"startTime":1145.91,"endTime":1147.65,"body":"to be available to make a guess,"},{"startTime":1147.65,"endTime":1151.13,"body":"an educated guess about when"},{"startTime":1147.65,"endTime":1151.13,"body":"prosecution might be pursued."},{"startTime":1151.13,"endTime":1152.93,"body":"But she took it to the House of Lords"},{"startTime":1152.93,"endTime":1154.94,"body":"and her claim succeeded."},{"startTime":1154.94,"endTime":1157.28,"body":"They accepted that her right"},{"startTime":1154.94,"endTime":1157.28,"body":"to life had been engaged"},{"startTime":1157.28,"endTime":1159.95,"body":"and her decision to commit"},{"startTime":1157.28,"endTime":1159.95,"body":"suicide fell under Article Eight,"},{"startTime":1159.95,"endTime":1161.69,"body":"her right to privacy."},{"startTime":1161.69,"endTime":1163.43,"body":"They still considered that interference"},{"startTime":1163.43,"endTime":1165.17,"body":"with her right to privacy"},{"startTime":1163.43,"endTime":1165.17,"body":"could be justified,"},{"startTime":1165.17,"endTime":1167.803,"body":"but it required legal justification."},{"startTime":1167.803,"endTime":1171.92,"body":"And so Lord Browne said there"},{"startTime":1167.803,"endTime":1171.92,"body":"will be on occasion situations"},{"startTime":1171.92,"endTime":1172.94,"body":"where it would be possible"},{"startTime":1172.94,"endTime":1174.53,"body":"to regard the conduct of the aider"},{"startTime":1174.53,"endTime":1177.17,"body":"in a better and altruistic"},{"startTime":1174.53,"endTime":1177.17,"body":"rather than criminal conduct,"},{"startTime":1177.17,"endTime":1178.76,"body":"rather to be understood out of respect"},{"startTime":1178.76,"endTime":1181.43,"body":"for an intending suicides"},{"startTime":1178.76,"endTime":1181.43,"body":"right under Article Eight"},{"startTime":1181.43,"endTime":1183.83,"body":"than discouraged so as to"},{"startTime":1181.43,"endTime":1183.83,"body":"safeguard the right of life"},{"startTime":1183.83,"endTime":1185.9,"body":"to others under Article Two."},{"startTime":1185.9,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"So, saying that there"},{"startTime":1185.9,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"would be multiple sides"},{"startTime":1187.76,"endTime":1189.32,"body":"to these situations."},{"startTime":1189.32,"endTime":1191.36,"body":"And as a consequence they"},{"startTime":1189.32,"endTime":1191.36,"body":"said the current guidance"},{"startTime":1191.36,"endTime":1192.56,"body":"on when such an interference"},{"startTime":1192.56,"endTime":1195.32,"body":"with her Article Eight right"},{"startTime":1192.56,"endTime":1195.32,"body":"might be made was insufficient."},{"startTime":1195.32,"endTime":1196.79,"body":"And the DPP was required"},{"startTime":1196.79,"endTime":1198.92,"body":"to provide offense specific policy,"},{"startTime":1198.92,"endTime":1200.78,"body":"identifying the facts and circumstances"},{"startTime":1200.78,"endTime":1202.34,"body":"when he would take into account"},{"startTime":1202.34,"endTime":1205.46,"body":"in deciding whether to"},{"startTime":1202.34,"endTime":1205.46,"body":"prosecute under Section 21,"},{"startTime":1205.46,"endTime":1206.51,"body":"it's important to understand"},{"startTime":1206.51,"endTime":1208.07,"body":"that Purdy didn't change the law,"},{"startTime":1208.07,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"assisted suicide remain legal"},{"startTime":1210.32,"endTime":1211.91,"body":"and for some such as Lord Golf"},{"startTime":1211.91,"endTime":1214.13,"body":"this didn't seem to be enough."},{"startTime":1214.13,"endTime":1216.477,"body":"He said, \"People shouldn't be"},{"startTime":1214.13,"endTime":1216.477,"body":"forced to linger in old age"},{"startTime":1216.477,"endTime":1219.057,"body":"\"or in states of advanced"},{"startTime":1216.477,"endTime":1219.057,"body":"physical and mental decrepitude,"},{"startTime":1219.057,"endTime":1221.277,"body":"\"which conflict with"},{"startTime":1219.057,"endTime":1221.277,"body":"strongly held ideas of self"},{"startTime":1221.277,"endTime":1222.29,"body":"\"and personal identity.\""},{"startTime":1222.29,"endTime":1224.24,"body":"So, he was invoking the privacy dimension,"},{"startTime":1224.24,"endTime":1225.263,"body":"under Article Eight."},{"startTime":1226.1,"endTime":1228.5,"body":"But regardless what it"},{"startTime":1226.1,"endTime":1228.5,"body":"did do was require the DPP"},{"startTime":1228.5,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"to give clear guidance on when"},{"startTime":1228.5,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"a prosecution would be made."},{"startTime":1231.38,"endTime":1233.423,"body":"And this guidance was released in 2010."},{"startTime":1235.25,"endTime":1236.9,"body":"So, there are a lot of factors,"},{"startTime":1236.9,"endTime":1237.83,"body":"I'll touch on some of them,"},{"startTime":1237.83,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"but they give you a sense of"},{"startTime":1237.83,"endTime":1241.88,"body":"what the DPPs perspective was."},{"startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1245.18,"body":"He listed a range of factors"},{"startTime":1241.88,"endTime":1245.18,"body":"relating to both victims"},{"startTime":1245.18,"endTime":1249.2,"body":"and suspects that would"},{"startTime":1245.18,"endTime":1249.2,"body":"give some direction about"},{"startTime":1249.2,"endTime":1251.213,"body":"when prosecution was more likely."},{"startTime":1252.08,"endTime":1253.73,"body":"So, things related to the victim"},{"startTime":1253.73,"endTime":1256.06,"body":"that increased the likelihood"},{"startTime":1253.73,"endTime":1256.06,"body":"of prosecution would be"},{"startTime":1256.06,"endTime":1257.99,"body":"if the victim was under 18,"},{"startTime":1257.99,"endTime":1259.43,"body":"they lacked legal capacity,"},{"startTime":1259.43,"endTime":1261.41,"body":"they hadn't reached a"},{"startTime":1259.43,"endTime":1261.41,"body":"voluntary clear, settled,"},{"startTime":1261.41,"endTime":1262.7,"body":"an informed decision,"},{"startTime":1262.7,"endTime":1264.86,"body":"hadn't clearly communicated it,"},{"startTime":1264.86,"endTime":1266.99,"body":"they hadn't sought the"},{"startTime":1264.86,"endTime":1266.99,"body":"encouragement of the person"},{"startTime":1266.99,"endTime":1270.44,"body":"who came to assist them"},{"startTime":1270.44,"endTime":1273.32,"body":"and they were able to"},{"startTime":1270.44,"endTime":1273.32,"body":"do the act themselves."},{"startTime":1273.32,"endTime":1275.99,"body":"I think more importantly are"},{"startTime":1273.32,"endTime":1275.99,"body":"the suspect related factors."},{"startTime":1275.99,"endTime":1278.153,"body":"You can see the kind of quality of act"},{"startTime":1278.153,"endTime":1279.35,"body":"that the DPP is suggesting"},{"startTime":1279.35,"endTime":1282.29,"body":"is the thought that the"},{"startTime":1279.35,"endTime":1282.29,"body":"demanded prosecution"},{"startTime":1282.29,"endTime":1285.38,"body":"and these were if the suspect"},{"startTime":1282.29,"endTime":1285.38,"body":"wasn't known to the victim,"},{"startTime":1285.38,"endTime":1287.87,"body":"if they had encouraged"},{"startTime":1285.38,"endTime":1287.87,"body":"more than one victim"},{"startTime":1287.87,"endTime":1290.3,"body":"and that they were paid by the victim"},{"startTime":1290.3,"endTime":1291.8,"body":"for their encouragement,"},{"startTime":1291.8,"endTime":1295.79,"body":"they were acting in able to"},{"startTime":1291.8,"endTime":1295.79,"body":"provide a physical environment"},{"startTime":1295.79,"endTime":1297.503,"body":"or they knew the victim"},{"startTime":1295.79,"endTime":1297.503,"body":"intended to commit suicide"},{"startTime":1297.503,"endTime":1298.79,"body":"in a public place"},{"startTime":1298.79,"endTime":1301.4,"body":"or they weren't wholly"},{"startTime":1298.79,"endTime":1301.4,"body":"motivated by compassion"},{"startTime":1301.4,"endTime":1303.08,"body":"or they had pressured them."},{"startTime":1303.08,"endTime":1305.45,"body":"All of those factors are clearly factors"},{"startTime":1305.45,"endTime":1307.79,"body":"where they are about the"},{"startTime":1305.45,"endTime":1307.79,"body":"suspect's motivations"},{"startTime":1307.79,"endTime":1311.0,"body":"and not about compassion"},{"startTime":1307.79,"endTime":1311.0,"body":"or care for the victim."},{"startTime":1311.0,"endTime":1314.33,"body":"And so it's saying that the"},{"startTime":1311.0,"endTime":1314.33,"body":"suspect had their own reasons"},{"startTime":1314.33,"endTime":1315.92,"body":"and that actually it's only in cases"},{"startTime":1315.92,"endTime":1318.29,"body":"where the victims reasons"},{"startTime":1315.92,"endTime":1318.29,"body":"were the dominant reasons"},{"startTime":1318.29,"endTime":1321.71,"body":"that this happened that you'll"},{"startTime":1318.29,"endTime":1321.71,"body":"be less like to prosecute."},{"startTime":1321.71,"endTime":1323.03,"body":"But a key one to mention"},{"startTime":1323.03,"endTime":1325.426,"body":"the one that we will come back to later"},{"startTime":1325.426,"endTime":1328.16,"body":"is that it would be a"},{"startTime":1325.426,"endTime":1328.16,"body":"suspect related factor,"},{"startTime":1328.16,"endTime":1331.49,"body":"likely to increase chances of prosecution"},{"startTime":1331.49,"endTime":1333.59,"body":"if the suspect was acting in his capacity"},{"startTime":1333.59,"endTime":1336.14,"body":"or her capacity as a medical professional"},{"startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1338.963,"body":"or a professional carer"},{"startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1338.963,"body":"or a personal authority."},{"startTime":1339.98,"endTime":1341.9,"body":"So, the DPP was making clear"},{"startTime":1341.9,"endTime":1346.07,"body":"that doctors would not be"},{"startTime":1341.9,"endTime":1346.07,"body":"immune from prosecution."},{"startTime":1346.07,"endTime":1347.69,"body":"So, a family member might be,"},{"startTime":1347.69,"endTime":1350.3,"body":"but someone in a position"},{"startTime":1347.69,"endTime":1350.3,"body":"of care or responsibility"},{"startTime":1350.3,"endTime":1353.78,"body":"or power essentially or authority"},{"startTime":1350.3,"endTime":1353.78,"body":"in relation to a patient,"},{"startTime":1353.78,"endTime":1357.023,"body":"would be open to prosecution or likely so."},{"startTime":1359.33,"endTime":1361.97,"body":"Was this a sufficient step"},{"startTime":1359.33,"endTime":1361.97,"body":"and was it the right step?"},{"startTime":1361.97,"endTime":1364.22,"body":"Well, in one sense I think"},{"startTime":1361.97,"endTime":1364.22,"body":"clarity was a good thing"},{"startTime":1364.22,"endTime":1365.63,"body":"to demonstrate there were people,"},{"startTime":1365.63,"endTime":1366.98,"body":"and Purdy was one of them"},{"startTime":1366.98,"endTime":1368.633,"body":"who found it very stressful and difficult"},{"startTime":1368.633,"endTime":1369.74,"body":"that they couldn't know"},{"startTime":1369.74,"endTime":1371.24,"body":"and they couldn't plan their decisions,"},{"startTime":1371.24,"endTime":1372.35,"body":"because they couldn't"},{"startTime":1371.24,"endTime":1372.35,"body":"know what would happen"},{"startTime":1372.35,"endTime":1373.37,"body":"to their loved ones."},{"startTime":1373.37,"endTime":1376.88,"body":"And in terms of what"},{"startTime":1373.37,"endTime":1376.88,"body":"position Purdy was in,"},{"startTime":1376.88,"endTime":1378.62,"body":"it seems to me particularly problematic"},{"startTime":1378.62,"endTime":1381.17,"body":"to put people who are coming"},{"startTime":1378.62,"endTime":1381.17,"body":"towards the end of their life"},{"startTime":1381.17,"endTime":1384.56,"body":"who are deeply vulnerable"},{"startTime":1381.17,"endTime":1384.56,"body":"or in pain or in distress"},{"startTime":1384.56,"endTime":1386.117,"body":"to add this additional burden on them."},{"startTime":1386.117,"endTime":1389.57,"body":"And so I think it was a"},{"startTime":1386.117,"endTime":1389.57,"body":"good decision in that sense."},{"startTime":1389.57,"endTime":1390.74,"body":"Some however,"},{"startTime":1390.74,"endTime":1392.6,"body":"such as Kate Greasley"},{"startTime":1390.74,"endTime":1392.6,"body":"have argued that actually"},{"startTime":1392.6,"endTime":1395.45,"body":"it was a problematic step in her article"},{"startTime":1395.45,"endTime":1398.24,"body":"which she refers to as \"The"},{"startTime":1395.45,"endTime":1398.24,"body":"Case for Willful Blindness,\""},{"startTime":1398.24,"endTime":1400.55,"body":"she says actually clarity and guidance,"},{"startTime":1400.55,"endTime":1402.41,"body":"made the situation worse,"},{"startTime":1402.41,"endTime":1404.51,"body":"because what it did was"},{"startTime":1402.41,"endTime":1404.51,"body":"it undermined discretion"},{"startTime":1404.51,"endTime":1406.64,"body":"to outline factors that would determine"},{"startTime":1406.64,"endTime":1407.75,"body":"when it would be exercised."},{"startTime":1407.75,"endTime":1410.21,"body":"So, in having to lay"},{"startTime":1407.75,"endTime":1410.21,"body":"everything out clearly"},{"startTime":1410.21,"endTime":1413.513,"body":"the DPP then lost the capacity"},{"startTime":1410.21,"endTime":1413.513,"body":"for further discretion."},{"startTime":1414.62,"endTime":1415.94,"body":"It also, she says,"},{"startTime":1415.94,"endTime":1419.18,"body":"meant that we have now"},{"startTime":1415.94,"endTime":1419.18,"body":"got a particular way"},{"startTime":1419.18,"endTime":1420.65,"body":"that is mandated of assisting."},{"startTime":1420.65,"endTime":1423.74,"body":"So, doctors are excluded"},{"startTime":1420.65,"endTime":1423.74,"body":"of family members and not,"},{"startTime":1423.74,"endTime":1427.4,"body":"and that also such"},{"startTime":1423.74,"endTime":1427.4,"body":"clarification effectively leads"},{"startTime":1427.4,"endTime":1429.71,"body":"to determinations on"},{"startTime":1427.4,"endTime":1429.71,"body":"the value of some lives,"},{"startTime":1429.71,"endTime":1433.28,"body":"those that may be assisted to"},{"startTime":1429.71,"endTime":1433.28,"body":"end and those that may not."},{"startTime":1433.28,"endTime":1435.83,"body":"Now, Keir Starmer,"},{"startTime":1435.83,"endTime":1437.84,"body":"who was the DPP at this point"},{"startTime":1437.84,"endTime":1440.39,"body":"and who drafted the guidance"},{"startTime":1437.84,"endTime":1440.39,"body":"when he later became an MP,"},{"startTime":1440.39,"endTime":1442.46,"body":"actually raised his own"},{"startTime":1440.39,"endTime":1442.46,"body":"concerns about the guidance,"},{"startTime":1442.46,"endTime":1444.26,"body":"which I think is very interesting."},{"startTime":1444.26,"endTime":1446.27,"body":"And he said actually one of the things"},{"startTime":1446.27,"endTime":1447.83,"body":"that was a concern about his guidance"},{"startTime":1447.83,"endTime":1450.92,"body":"was that it wasn't supportive"},{"startTime":1447.83,"endTime":1450.92,"body":"of medics assisting"},{"startTime":1450.92,"endTime":1452.81,"body":"and that this did he"},{"startTime":1450.92,"endTime":1452.81,"body":"recognized create a problem"},{"startTime":1452.81,"endTime":1454.7,"body":"for people who were without help."},{"startTime":1454.7,"endTime":1457.22,"body":"So in fact, people who"},{"startTime":1454.7,"endTime":1457.22,"body":"didn't have family members"},{"startTime":1457.22,"endTime":1460.1,"body":"to assist them who were"},{"startTime":1457.22,"endTime":1460.1,"body":"arguably more vulnerable,"},{"startTime":1460.1,"endTime":1461.315,"body":"were put in a worse position"},{"startTime":1461.315,"endTime":1462.95,"body":"and that they couldn't call on the people"},{"startTime":1462.95,"endTime":1464.69,"body":"who were caring for them"},{"startTime":1462.95,"endTime":1464.69,"body":"to help them at all."},{"startTime":1464.69,"endTime":1466.64,"body":"And so they were left with fewer options"},{"startTime":1466.64,"endTime":1468.635,"body":"than they might otherwise have been."},{"startTime":1468.635,"endTime":1471.29,"body":"And he also said it was problematic"},{"startTime":1471.29,"endTime":1474.11,"body":"to approach the situation"},{"startTime":1471.29,"endTime":1474.11,"body":"the way Purdy had demanded"},{"startTime":1474.11,"endTime":1476.48,"body":"that he do because it meant that"},{"startTime":1476.48,"endTime":1479.15,"body":"it didn't enable a"},{"startTime":1476.48,"endTime":1479.15,"body":"pre-decision exploration"},{"startTime":1479.15,"endTime":1479.983,"body":"of the situation."},{"startTime":1479.983,"endTime":1482.63,"body":"It didn't enable people"},{"startTime":1479.983,"endTime":1482.63,"body":"involved to look for consent"},{"startTime":1482.63,"endTime":1484.73,"body":"or whether the decision"},{"startTime":1482.63,"endTime":1484.73,"body":"was voluntary and so on,"},{"startTime":1484.73,"endTime":1486.53,"body":"but rather just place the emphasis"},{"startTime":1486.53,"endTime":1489.83,"body":"on a post-facto exploration"},{"startTime":1486.53,"endTime":1489.83,"body":"of what the person"},{"startTime":1489.83,"endTime":1491.0,"body":"who had assisted them had done"},{"startTime":1491.0,"endTime":1493.01,"body":"and that this wasn't a good solution"},{"startTime":1493.01,"endTime":1496.223,"body":"to the problem of people who"},{"startTime":1493.01,"endTime":1496.223,"body":"wanted to be helped to die."},{"startTime":1497.9,"endTime":1498.97,"body":"Now when we come to voluntary,"},{"startTime":1498.97,"endTime":1501.02,"body":"so we'll move on to voluntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":1502.063,"endTime":1503.81,"body":"Voluntary euthanasia,"},{"startTime":1503.81,"endTime":1504.92,"body":"I think the thing to say about this,"},{"startTime":1504.92,"endTime":1507.86,"body":"so I've told you the the"},{"startTime":1504.92,"endTime":1507.86,"body":"the general legal position."},{"startTime":1507.86,"endTime":1509.42,"body":"What's also important to know however,"},{"startTime":1509.42,"endTime":1510.98,"body":"is that doctors are very, very,"},{"startTime":1510.98,"endTime":1514.88,"body":"if ever convicted of murder"},{"startTime":1510.98,"endTime":1514.88,"body":"for voluntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":1514.88,"endTime":1518.18,"body":"And it's clear that judges and"},{"startTime":1514.88,"endTime":1518.18,"body":"the juries and the judiciary,"},{"startTime":1518.18,"endTime":1519.56,"body":"are often sympathetic"},{"startTime":1519.56,"endTime":1522.53,"body":"to doctors that they think"},{"startTime":1519.56,"endTime":1522.53,"body":"have acted compassionately."},{"startTime":1522.53,"endTime":1527.0,"body":"So, in R and Arthur it"},{"startTime":1522.53,"endTime":1527.0,"body":"said, \"Think long and hard,\""},{"startTime":1527.0,"endTime":1528.057,"body":"he says to the jury,"},{"startTime":1528.057,"endTime":1530.487,"body":"\"before deciding that doctors"},{"startTime":1528.057,"endTime":1530.487,"body":"of the eminence we have heard,"},{"startTime":1530.487,"endTime":1533.84,"body":"\"have evolved standards which"},{"startTime":1530.487,"endTime":1533.84,"body":"amount to committing a crime.\""},{"startTime":1533.84,"endTime":1535.617,"body":"Or Justice Hooper in R and Moore,"},{"startTime":1535.617,"endTime":1537.117,"body":"\"You may consider it a great irony"},{"startTime":1537.117,"endTime":1538.857,"body":"\"that a doctor who goes"},{"startTime":1537.117,"endTime":1538.857,"body":"out of his way to care"},{"startTime":1538.857,"endTime":1542.63,"body":"\"for a patient ends up facing"},{"startTime":1538.857,"endTime":1542.63,"body":"the charge that he does.\""},{"startTime":1542.63,"endTime":1544.91,"body":"So, in those situations the judge"},{"startTime":1544.91,"endTime":1547.01,"body":"had to apply the law that"},{"startTime":1544.91,"endTime":1547.01,"body":"stood as do the juries."},{"startTime":1547.01,"endTime":1549.312,"body":"But you can see that"},{"startTime":1547.01,"endTime":1549.312,"body":"there's a clear direction"},{"startTime":1549.312,"endTime":1554.312,"body":"to appreciate the reasons as"},{"startTime":1549.312,"endTime":1554.312,"body":"to why a doctor might do this."},{"startTime":1554.42,"endTime":1556.13,"body":"Now, the law does it's true,"},{"startTime":1556.13,"endTime":1559.82,"body":"offer a range of possible defenses,"},{"startTime":1559.82,"endTime":1561.14,"body":"diminished responsibility."},{"startTime":1561.14,"endTime":1562.737,"body":"It may be the case that someone can say,"},{"startTime":1562.737,"endTime":1565.827,"body":"\"Well actually the person"},{"startTime":1562.737,"endTime":1565.827,"body":"who helps someone to die"},{"startTime":1565.827,"endTime":1568.257,"body":"\"is in a sense themselves not responsible,"},{"startTime":1568.257,"endTime":1570.14,"body":"\"because they're not"},{"startTime":1568.257,"endTime":1570.14,"body":"entirely thinking clearly.\""},{"startTime":1570.14,"endTime":1571.91,"body":"And this might affect sentencing,"},{"startTime":1571.91,"endTime":1574.46,"body":"but it's unlikely to be"},{"startTime":1571.91,"endTime":1574.46,"body":"available to doctors we know,"},{"startTime":1574.46,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"because actually they"},{"startTime":1574.46,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"can't show the requisite,"},{"startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1578.63,"body":"abnormality of mind in these situations"},{"startTime":1578.63,"endTime":1579.73,"body":"to meet the threshold."},{"startTime":1580.64,"endTime":1583.1,"body":"We might argue provocation,"},{"startTime":1583.1,"endTime":1585.86,"body":"suicide pact might reduce"},{"startTime":1583.1,"endTime":1585.86,"body":"it to manslaughter,"},{"startTime":1585.86,"endTime":1590.39,"body":"but these again tend not to"},{"startTime":1585.86,"endTime":1590.39,"body":"be particularly good defenses"},{"startTime":1590.39,"endTime":1591.223,"body":"to try to use,"},{"startTime":1591.223,"endTime":1593.0,"body":"their complex and so on."},{"startTime":1593.0,"endTime":1595.61,"body":"One is the doctrine of double effect,"},{"startTime":1595.61,"endTime":1599.09,"body":"which is arguably a problematic way"},{"startTime":1599.09,"endTime":1600.08,"body":"to think about these things"},{"startTime":1600.08,"endTime":1602.81,"body":"and I don't intend to go into"},{"startTime":1600.08,"endTime":1602.81,"body":"it in great detail today."},{"startTime":1602.81,"endTime":1603.68,"body":"But what that means"},{"startTime":1603.68,"endTime":1606.2,"body":"is that you may have two goals in a sense,"},{"startTime":1606.2,"endTime":1608.556,"body":"you have a dominant goal"},{"startTime":1606.2,"endTime":1608.556,"body":"which is to relieve pain,"},{"startTime":1608.556,"endTime":1612.53,"body":"but you're aware that"},{"startTime":1608.556,"endTime":1612.53,"body":"it will lead to death."},{"startTime":1612.53,"endTime":1614.81,"body":"And whether that will be a defense,"},{"startTime":1614.81,"endTime":1617.21,"body":"we know from R and Cheshire"},{"startTime":1614.81,"endTime":1617.21,"body":"that an act leading to death,"},{"startTime":1617.21,"endTime":1620.45,"body":"has to be the substantial and"},{"startTime":1617.21,"endTime":1620.45,"body":"operating cause of that death."},{"startTime":1620.45,"endTime":1623.21,"body":"But of course it's very"},{"startTime":1620.45,"endTime":1623.21,"body":"difficult for a doctor"},{"startTime":1623.21,"endTime":1625.91,"body":"to tell themselves what one is their goal"},{"startTime":1625.91,"endTime":1627.38,"body":"and the other is just a known side effect."},{"startTime":1627.38,"endTime":1630.38,"body":"So, it is complex and problematic."},{"startTime":1630.38,"endTime":1632.09,"body":"We also have the case of Jodie and Mary,"},{"startTime":1632.09,"endTime":1633.68,"body":"the separation of conjoined twins"},{"startTime":1633.68,"endTime":1636.44,"body":"and there that was framed as self-defense"},{"startTime":1636.44,"endTime":1638.24,"body":"in supporting that."},{"startTime":1638.24,"endTime":1640.91,"body":"But essentially we know that"},{"startTime":1638.24,"endTime":1640.91,"body":"almost invariably doctors,"},{"startTime":1640.91,"endTime":1641.96,"body":"will not be prosecuted."},{"startTime":1641.96,"endTime":1644.54,"body":"So, we have this situation in"},{"startTime":1641.96,"endTime":1644.54,"body":"which the law says one thing,"},{"startTime":1644.54,"endTime":1646.39,"body":"but it is applied in a different way."},{"startTime":1647.32,"endTime":1652.16,"body":"So, this was directly challenged"},{"startTime":1647.32,"endTime":1652.16,"body":"in 2014 by Tony Nicklinson"},{"startTime":1652.16,"endTime":1653.9,"body":"who sought voluntary euthanasia."},{"startTime":1653.9,"endTime":1656.36,"body":"So, coming after Pretty and Purdy,"},{"startTime":1656.36,"endTime":1657.617,"body":"his was for euthanasia"},{"startTime":1657.617,"endTime":1660.05,"body":"and that was because he"},{"startTime":1657.617,"endTime":1660.05,"body":"couldn't commit suicide himself,"},{"startTime":1660.05,"endTime":1661.45,"body":"he didn't have the capacity."},{"startTime":1662.84,"endTime":1663.95,"body":"Now, what he wanted"},{"startTime":1663.95,"endTime":1667.16,"body":"was an exploration of whether"},{"startTime":1663.95,"endTime":1667.16,"body":"or not euthanasia itself,"},{"startTime":1667.16,"endTime":1669.98,"body":"voluntary euthanasia could"},{"startTime":1667.16,"endTime":1669.98,"body":"effectively be a defense"},{"startTime":1669.98,"endTime":1671.03,"body":"to the charge of murder."},{"startTime":1671.03,"endTime":1673.28,"body":"So, making it explicit"},{"startTime":1671.03,"endTime":1673.28,"body":"to say the defense here"},{"startTime":1673.28,"endTime":1675.966,"body":"is actually that this was a euthanasia."},{"startTime":1675.966,"endTime":1678.62,"body":"And so he sent sought"},{"startTime":1675.966,"endTime":1678.62,"body":"declarations on two arguments"},{"startTime":1678.62,"endTime":1679.76,"body":"that might depending on the answer,"},{"startTime":1679.76,"endTime":1682.64,"body":"have enabled him to pursue euthanasia."},{"startTime":1682.64,"endTime":1684.29,"body":"And one was that the common law defense"},{"startTime":1684.29,"endTime":1686.57,"body":"of necessity would be"},{"startTime":1684.29,"endTime":1686.57,"body":"available to a charge of murder"},{"startTime":1686.57,"endTime":1689.39,"body":"in a case of voluntary active euthanasia"},{"startTime":1689.39,"endTime":1693.503,"body":"or a charge of a case of assisted suicide."},{"startTime":1694.37,"endTime":1698.84,"body":"And the other alternative was"},{"startTime":1694.37,"endTime":1698.84,"body":"that the current law of murder"},{"startTime":1698.84,"endTime":1701.24,"body":"or of assisted suicide was"},{"startTime":1698.84,"endTime":1701.24,"body":"incapacity with this right"},{"startTime":1701.24,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"to respect for private"},{"startTime":1701.24,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"life under Article Eight."},{"startTime":1703.43,"endTime":1705.611,"body":"So, he was reviewing the"},{"startTime":1703.43,"endTime":1705.611,"body":"Article Eight dimension"},{"startTime":1705.611,"endTime":1708.11,"body":"on assisted suicide."},{"startTime":1708.11,"endTime":1709.553,"body":"Now when he made these,"},{"startTime":1710.51,"endTime":1711.71,"body":"when he saw these declarations,"},{"startTime":1711.71,"endTime":1713.03,"body":"he made a range of caveats"},{"startTime":1713.03,"endTime":1715.37,"body":"that he said would be need to be in place"},{"startTime":1715.37,"endTime":1717.2,"body":"for when necessity could arise."},{"startTime":1717.2,"endTime":1718.46,"body":"These would be the patient's life"},{"startTime":1718.46,"endTime":1719.84,"body":"was one of unbearable suffering."},{"startTime":1719.84,"endTime":1722.48,"body":"There was no alternative"},{"startTime":1719.84,"endTime":1722.48,"body":"means to relieve suffering."},{"startTime":1722.48,"endTime":1725.0,"body":"The decision was clearly voluntary"},{"startTime":1722.48,"endTime":1725.0,"body":"and informed and settled."},{"startTime":1725.0,"endTime":1726.706,"body":"And the doctor was satisfied"},{"startTime":1726.706,"endTime":1728.33,"body":"that the duty to ease suffering,"},{"startTime":1728.33,"endTime":1729.95,"body":"outweighed the duty to preserve life."},{"startTime":1729.95,"endTime":1731.27,"body":"So, he was framing a way"},{"startTime":1731.27,"endTime":1733.88,"body":"that the law could accept euthanasia,"},{"startTime":1733.88,"endTime":1736.83,"body":"voluntary euthanasia as a"},{"startTime":1733.88,"endTime":1736.83,"body":"response to a situation like his."},{"startTime":1738.304,"endTime":1741.29,"body":"His application for"},{"startTime":1738.304,"endTime":1741.29,"body":"judicial review was rejected"},{"startTime":1741.29,"endTime":1742.88,"body":"by the divisional court"},{"startTime":1742.88,"endTime":1745.01,"body":"and after that happened he refused food"},{"startTime":1745.01,"endTime":1747.62,"body":"and water and he died some days later."},{"startTime":1747.62,"endTime":1749.99,"body":"But his widow was given"},{"startTime":1747.62,"endTime":1749.99,"body":"permission to carry on"},{"startTime":1749.99,"endTime":1752.03,"body":"and it went to the Court of Appeal."},{"startTime":1752.03,"endTime":1753.8,"body":"And at the Court of Appeal"},{"startTime":1753.8,"endTime":1754.82,"body":"it was found that euthanasia,"},{"startTime":1754.82,"endTime":1756.8,"body":"would not be a defense to murder"},{"startTime":1756.8,"endTime":1758.21,"body":"and that the restrictions on euthanasia,"},{"startTime":1758.21,"endTime":1759.89,"body":"didn't breach his Article Eight rights,"},{"startTime":1759.89,"endTime":1761.99,"body":"that they fell within the"},{"startTime":1759.89,"endTime":1761.99,"body":"margin of appreciation"},{"startTime":1761.99,"endTime":1764.543,"body":"and it was for parliament to enact laws."},{"startTime":1765.44,"endTime":1766.55,"body":"It then went on,"},{"startTime":1766.55,"endTime":1769.1,"body":"joined with another case from Martin"},{"startTime":1769.1,"endTime":1770.09,"body":"to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":1770.09,"endTime":1770.923,"body":"And at that point,"},{"startTime":1770.923,"endTime":1772.49,"body":"given the failure on euthanasia,"},{"startTime":1772.49,"endTime":1776.09,"body":"they had pivoted to focusing"},{"startTime":1772.49,"endTime":1776.09,"body":"on assisted suicide."},{"startTime":1776.09,"endTime":1778.58,"body":"And what we got from this is"},{"startTime":1776.09,"endTime":1778.58,"body":"essentially the final word,"},{"startTime":1778.58,"endTime":1780.92,"body":"because subsequent decisions"},{"startTime":1778.58,"endTime":1780.92,"body":"that have come to the courts,"},{"startTime":1780.92,"endTime":1782.81,"body":"have said Nicklison is our final position"},{"startTime":1782.81,"endTime":1784.97,"body":"of the house of of the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":1784.97,"endTime":1788.66,"body":"And in that someone on"},{"startTime":1784.97,"endTime":1788.66,"body":"unusually all nine justices"},{"startTime":1788.66,"endTime":1790.55,"body":"of the Supreme Court gave their views."},{"startTime":1790.55,"endTime":1794.39,"body":"So, it's complicated to pick"},{"startTime":1790.55,"endTime":1794.39,"body":"out what the decision means,"},{"startTime":1794.39,"endTime":1796.76,"body":"but fundamentally five of the judges,"},{"startTime":1796.76,"endTime":1797.99,"body":"felt that they could decide"},{"startTime":1797.99,"endTime":1800.09,"body":"that it did fall within"},{"startTime":1797.99,"endTime":1800.09,"body":"their constitutional powers"},{"startTime":1800.09,"endTime":1801.26,"body":"to decide this."},{"startTime":1801.26,"endTime":1802.28,"body":"But they differed on whether"},{"startTime":1802.28,"endTime":1805.85,"body":"or not Article Eight was"},{"startTime":1802.28,"endTime":1805.85,"body":"incompatible with assisted suicide."},{"startTime":1805.85,"endTime":1807.2,"body":"So, they all thought they"},{"startTime":1805.85,"endTime":1807.2,"body":"could make the decision,"},{"startTime":1807.2,"endTime":1809.93,"body":"but they had different views"},{"startTime":1807.2,"endTime":1809.93,"body":"on what the decision should be."},{"startTime":1809.93,"endTime":1813.14,"body":"And four felt that it was"},{"startTime":1809.93,"endTime":1813.14,"body":"a matter for parliament."},{"startTime":1813.14,"endTime":1815.487,"body":"And as some like Lord"},{"startTime":1813.14,"endTime":1815.487,"body":"Sumption pointed out,"},{"startTime":1815.487,"endTime":1818.607,"body":"\"This was because it was"},{"startTime":1815.487,"endTime":1818.607,"body":"a case of vex moral issues"},{"startTime":1818.607,"endTime":1820.917,"body":"\"and there was a need"},{"startTime":1818.607,"endTime":1820.917,"body":"for non individualized,"},{"startTime":1820.917,"endTime":1823.077,"body":"\"non-personally related decision making"},{"startTime":1823.077,"endTime":1825.627,"body":"\"that it needed to take account"},{"startTime":1823.077,"endTime":1825.627,"body":"of community perspectives"},{"startTime":1825.627,"endTime":1827.697,"body":"\"and be a generally asserted decision."},{"startTime":1827.697,"endTime":1829.017,"body":"\"And only Parliament could do that."},{"startTime":1829.017,"endTime":1831.77,"body":"\"It wasn't right for judges to do so.\""},{"startTime":1831.77,"endTime":1832.907,"body":"So, that is the state of the law"},{"startTime":1832.907,"endTime":1836.63,"body":"and it remains the state of"},{"startTime":1832.907,"endTime":1836.63,"body":"the law despite recent changes."},{"startTime":1836.63,"endTime":1837.77,"body":"Now, what I want to do at this point"},{"startTime":1837.77,"endTime":1839.72,"body":"is to give you some sense"},{"startTime":1837.77,"endTime":1839.72,"body":"of what the community,"},{"startTime":1839.72,"endTime":1840.62,"body":"thinks about the law"},{"startTime":1840.62,"endTime":1841.46,"body":"and then I will talk to you,"},{"startTime":1841.46,"endTime":1842.72,"body":"about some of the recent attempts"},{"startTime":1842.72,"endTime":1845.6,"body":"to change the law through parliament."},{"startTime":1845.6,"endTime":1849.2,"body":"It's quite difficult I think"},{"startTime":1845.6,"endTime":1849.2,"body":"and I found it quite difficult"},{"startTime":1849.2,"endTime":1852.05,"body":"to find out what people in the"},{"startTime":1849.2,"endTime":1852.05,"body":"community thought about it."},{"startTime":1852.05,"endTime":1855.53,"body":"And so if you go to look"},{"startTime":1852.05,"endTime":1855.53,"body":"at some of the information"},{"startTime":1855.53,"endTime":1856.363,"body":"that is out there,"},{"startTime":1856.363,"endTime":1857.78,"body":"you will see that even the surveys,"},{"startTime":1857.78,"endTime":1859.79,"body":"even the data that we we"},{"startTime":1857.78,"endTime":1859.79,"body":"have about people's views"},{"startTime":1859.79,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"is contested."},{"startTime":1861.56,"endTime":1863.03,"body":"So, I will give you some data,"},{"startTime":1863.03,"endTime":1864.53,"body":"but I'll give it to you at the caveat"},{"startTime":1864.53,"endTime":1868.13,"body":"that I'm aware that there is"},{"startTime":1864.53,"endTime":1868.13,"body":"debate about whether or not"},{"startTime":1868.13,"endTime":1869.87,"body":"this data is indicative"},{"startTime":1868.13,"endTime":1869.87,"body":"of what people feel."},{"startTime":1869.87,"endTime":1871.67,"body":"But the general view that people express"},{"startTime":1871.67,"endTime":1874.34,"body":"is that the population is generally,"},{"startTime":1874.34,"endTime":1877.22,"body":"although not exceedingly in the majority,"},{"startTime":1877.22,"endTime":1879.92,"body":"in favor of allowing some liberalization,"},{"startTime":1879.92,"endTime":1881.003,"body":"about assisted dying."},{"startTime":1881.9,"endTime":1884.45,"body":"But it depends on the"},{"startTime":1881.9,"endTime":1884.45,"body":"source and the survey."},{"startTime":1884.45,"endTime":1886.94,"body":"So, according to the Campaign"},{"startTime":1884.45,"endTime":1886.94,"body":"for Dignity and Dying,"},{"startTime":1886.94,"endTime":1889.7,"body":"which is a lobby group"},{"startTime":1886.94,"endTime":1889.7,"body":"pressing for change on the law"},{"startTime":1889.7,"endTime":1890.533,"body":"in their view,"},{"startTime":1890.533,"endTime":1893.24,"body":"84% of the public support"},{"startTime":1890.533,"endTime":1893.24,"body":"the choice of assisted dying"},{"startTime":1893.24,"endTime":1894.62,"body":"for terminally ill adults."},{"startTime":1894.62,"endTime":1895.94,"body":"And 86% of the people"},{"startTime":1895.94,"endTime":1899.51,"body":"with a disabilities support"},{"startTime":1895.94,"endTime":1899.51,"body":"this change to the law."},{"startTime":1899.51,"endTime":1901.82,"body":"Other groups however"},{"startTime":1899.51,"endTime":1901.82,"body":"challenge these results."},{"startTime":1901.82,"endTime":1903.8,"body":"So, an example of that"},{"startTime":1901.82,"endTime":1903.8,"body":"is Right To Life UK,"},{"startTime":1903.8,"endTime":1905.03,"body":"which argues that some of these polls,"},{"startTime":1905.03,"endTime":1907.16,"body":"are actually misleading and skewed."},{"startTime":1907.16,"endTime":1908.87,"body":"And so they point out some criticisms"},{"startTime":1908.87,"endTime":1911.33,"body":"of the robustness of dignity"},{"startTime":1908.87,"endTime":1911.33,"body":"and dying survey data"},{"startTime":1911.33,"endTime":1914.3,"body":"and they say Well actually"},{"startTime":1911.33,"endTime":1914.3,"body":"some of those answers change"},{"startTime":1914.3,"endTime":1917.39,"body":"in surveys when you present"},{"startTime":1914.3,"endTime":1917.39,"body":"some counter-arguments"},{"startTime":1917.39,"endTime":1919.52,"body":"and give more detail"},{"startTime":1917.39,"endTime":1919.52,"body":"about what assisted dying,"},{"startTime":1919.52,"endTime":1921.773,"body":"would look like when we"},{"startTime":1919.52,"endTime":1921.773,"body":"put it into practice."},{"startTime":1922.618,"endTime":1924.11,"body":"So for example,"},{"startTime":1924.11,"endTime":1925.43,"body":"they say that whether respondents"},{"startTime":1925.43,"endTime":1928.46,"body":"to a poll exposed were"},{"startTime":1925.43,"endTime":1928.46,"body":"exposed to counter arguments,"},{"startTime":1928.46,"endTime":1929.96,"body":"the introduction of assisted suicide,"},{"startTime":1929.96,"endTime":1932.93,"body":"appeared to have an impact on"},{"startTime":1929.96,"endTime":1932.93,"body":"the percentages of responses"},{"startTime":1932.93,"endTime":1935.39,"body":"on respondents who said"},{"startTime":1932.93,"endTime":1935.39,"body":"that they supported it."},{"startTime":1935.39,"endTime":1937.91,"body":"So, they say that support for"},{"startTime":1935.39,"endTime":1937.91,"body":"assisted suicide for example,"},{"startTime":1937.91,"endTime":1941.39,"body":"dropped from 73% in one survey to 43%"},{"startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1944.083,"body":"when respondents were presented"},{"startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1944.083,"body":"with counter arguments."},{"startTime":1945.71,"endTime":1948.68,"body":"Another survey suggested that"},{"startTime":1945.71,"endTime":1948.68,"body":"74% of respondents agreed"},{"startTime":1948.68,"endTime":1951.02,"body":"or strongly agreed with"},{"startTime":1948.68,"endTime":1951.02,"body":"a proposal for a bill"},{"startTime":1951.02,"endTime":1953.33,"body":"to enable mentally"},{"startTime":1951.02,"endTime":1953.33,"body":"competent adults in the UK"},{"startTime":1953.33,"endTime":1955.4,"body":"who are terminally ill and have a declared"},{"startTime":1955.4,"endTime":1957.11,"body":"and clear and settled the"},{"startTime":1955.4,"endTime":1957.11,"body":"intent to do in their own life"},{"startTime":1957.11,"endTime":1959.96,"body":"to be provided with"},{"startTime":1957.11,"endTime":1959.96,"body":"assistance to commit suicide."},{"startTime":1959.96,"endTime":1961.91,"body":"But that support dropped only slightly,"},{"startTime":1961.91,"endTime":1963.409,"body":"but it did drop"},{"startTime":1963.409,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"when they were told that"},{"startTime":1963.409,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"various medical groups,"},{"startTime":1965.48,"endTime":1968.21,"body":"such as the BMA and"},{"startTime":1965.48,"endTime":1968.21,"body":"major disability groups,"},{"startTime":1968.21,"endTime":1970.643,"body":"weren't supportive of a change in the law."},{"startTime":1971.63,"endTime":1972.5,"body":"Similarly,"},{"startTime":1972.5,"endTime":1974.48,"body":"support dropped when the"},{"startTime":1972.5,"endTime":1974.48,"body":"counter arguments raised"},{"startTime":1974.48,"endTime":1975.59,"body":"that the argument was that"},{"startTime":1975.59,"endTime":1976.837,"body":"there was a risk of"},{"startTime":1975.59,"endTime":1976.837,"body":"people feeling pressured"},{"startTime":1976.837,"endTime":1979.733,"body":"to end their life early"},{"startTime":1976.837,"endTime":1979.733,"body":"to avoid being a burden."},{"startTime":1980.81,"endTime":1983.63,"body":"That said, in all of the"},{"startTime":1980.81,"endTime":1983.63,"body":"surveys that I have looked at,"},{"startTime":1983.63,"endTime":1986.847,"body":"support still remains"},{"startTime":1983.63,"endTime":1986.847,"body":"at slightly above 50%."},{"startTime":1986.847,"endTime":1989.225,"body":"So, 50 to 60%."},{"startTime":1989.225,"endTime":1992.42,"body":"And so it seems to me"},{"startTime":1989.225,"endTime":1992.42,"body":"that it is not reasonable"},{"startTime":1992.42,"endTime":1994.49,"body":"to say that there is a"},{"startTime":1992.42,"endTime":1994.49,"body":"settled view in the community."},{"startTime":1994.49,"endTime":1997.28,"body":"There is demonstrably a division of views"},{"startTime":1997.28,"endTime":2000.49,"body":"and that the resistance"},{"startTime":1997.28,"endTime":2000.49,"body":"on one side is very strong"},{"startTime":2000.49,"endTime":2002.47,"body":"and the support on the"},{"startTime":2000.49,"endTime":2002.47,"body":"other side is very strong."},{"startTime":2002.47,"endTime":2005.353,"body":"It's not an issue on which"},{"startTime":2002.47,"endTime":2005.353,"body":"many people feel ambivalent."},{"startTime":2006.4,"endTime":2008.56,"body":"So, what do we do with this sort of data?"},{"startTime":2008.56,"endTime":2011.59,"body":"Does this give us the answer"},{"startTime":2008.56,"endTime":2011.59,"body":"about what we should do?"},{"startTime":2011.59,"endTime":2013.24,"body":"Well my feeling is we"},{"startTime":2011.59,"endTime":2013.24,"body":"should take it seriously,"},{"startTime":2013.24,"endTime":2014.47,"body":"but what we should take seriously"},{"startTime":2014.47,"endTime":2016.63,"body":"is that there is strongly divided opinion"},{"startTime":2016.63,"endTime":2018.58,"body":"and that whatever solution we develop,"},{"startTime":2018.58,"endTime":2019.78,"body":"it needs to be able to account"},{"startTime":2019.78,"endTime":2021.82,"body":"for the fact that"},{"startTime":2019.78,"endTime":2021.82,"body":"whatever view people have,"},{"startTime":2021.82,"endTime":2024.82,"body":"they feel it very, very strongly"},{"startTime":2021.82,"endTime":2024.82,"body":"and with very good reasons."},{"startTime":2024.82,"endTime":2027.1,"body":"And so whatever legal solution we produce"},{"startTime":2027.1,"endTime":2029.02,"body":"has to account for the fact"},{"startTime":2029.02,"endTime":2030.76,"body":"that there are differences of views."},{"startTime":2030.76,"endTime":2032.41,"body":"Whether that means a permissive system"},{"startTime":2032.41,"endTime":2034.26,"body":"is another matter which I'll come to."},{"startTime":2035.44,"endTime":2036.55,"body":"Another question I ask myself"},{"startTime":2036.55,"endTime":2037.937,"body":"when I is writing this"},{"startTime":2036.55,"endTime":2037.937,"body":"talk was I was thinking,"},{"startTime":2037.937,"endTime":2040.938,"body":"\"Well what do medical"},{"startTime":2037.937,"endTime":2040.938,"body":"professionals think about this?\""},{"startTime":2040.938,"endTime":2043.36,"body":"And actually we know that because the BMA,"},{"startTime":2043.36,"endTime":2046.96,"body":"did a very extensive survey"},{"startTime":2043.36,"endTime":2046.96,"body":"of its members in 2021."},{"startTime":2046.96,"endTime":2048.85,"body":"Now, the BMA is a policymaking body."},{"startTime":2048.85,"endTime":2050.38,"body":"It's a policymaking body."},{"startTime":2050.38,"endTime":2051.22,"body":"It's partly that,"},{"startTime":2051.22,"endTime":2053.47,"body":"it's policymaking body voted"},{"startTime":2053.47,"endTime":2055.75,"body":"in favor of emotion to change its policy"},{"startTime":2055.75,"endTime":2059.68,"body":"on assisted dying from"},{"startTime":2055.75,"endTime":2059.68,"body":"opposition to one of neutrality."},{"startTime":2059.68,"endTime":2061.12,"body":"So, they don't support it now,"},{"startTime":2061.12,"endTime":2062.8,"body":"but they don't oppose it."},{"startTime":2062.8,"endTime":2064.45,"body":"So, their official position is,"},{"startTime":2064.45,"endTime":2066.82,"body":"this means we neither"},{"startTime":2064.45,"endTime":2066.82,"body":"support nor oppose attempts"},{"startTime":2066.82,"endTime":2067.69,"body":"to change the law."},{"startTime":2067.69,"endTime":2069.55,"body":"We will not be silent"},{"startTime":2067.69,"endTime":2069.55,"body":"on the issue however,"},{"startTime":2069.55,"endTime":2072.46,"body":"we have responsibility to"},{"startTime":2069.55,"endTime":2072.46,"body":"represent our members' interests"},{"startTime":2072.46,"endTime":2075.37,"body":"and concerns in any future"},{"startTime":2072.46,"endTime":2075.37,"body":"legislative proposals"},{"startTime":2075.37,"endTime":2077.08,"body":"and we'll continue to"},{"startTime":2075.37,"endTime":2077.08,"body":"engage with our member"},{"startTime":2077.08,"endTime":2079.18,"body":"to determine their views."},{"startTime":2079.18,"endTime":2081.25,"body":"So, this was informed by it"},{"startTime":2079.18,"endTime":2081.25,"body":"but not entirely deferment"},{"startTime":2081.25,"endTime":2083.11,"body":"by their survey of their members."},{"startTime":2083.11,"endTime":2084.553,"body":"So, what did doctors say?"},{"startTime":2085.39,"endTime":2087.91,"body":"Well, they were split quite evenly."},{"startTime":2087.91,"endTime":2090.01,"body":"So, on the question of"},{"startTime":2087.91,"endTime":2090.01,"body":"do you personally support"},{"startTime":2090.01,"endTime":2092.41,"body":"or oppose a change in the law"},{"startTime":2092.41,"endTime":2094.81,"body":"on prescribing drug drugs"},{"startTime":2092.41,"endTime":2094.81,"body":"for eligible patients"},{"startTime":2094.81,"endTime":2095.8,"body":"to self-administer?"},{"startTime":2095.8,"endTime":2097.72,"body":"So assisted suicide."},{"startTime":2097.72,"endTime":2100.993,"body":"50% were supportive and 39% opposed."},{"startTime":2102.49,"endTime":2103.323,"body":"But then when asked,"},{"startTime":2103.323,"endTime":2105.49,"body":"would you be willing to"},{"startTime":2103.323,"endTime":2105.49,"body":"participate in any way"},{"startTime":2105.49,"endTime":2107.29,"body":"in the process if the law changed,"},{"startTime":2107.29,"endTime":2110.2,"body":"that is, would you help"},{"startTime":2107.29,"endTime":2110.2,"body":"provide these drugs?"},{"startTime":2110.2,"endTime":2114.25,"body":"Only 36% said yes and 45 said no."},{"startTime":2114.25,"endTime":2116.92,"body":"So, you can see that some"},{"startTime":2114.25,"endTime":2116.92,"body":"doctors are supportive,"},{"startTime":2116.92,"endTime":2118.63,"body":"but they don't themselves"},{"startTime":2116.92,"endTime":2118.63,"body":"personally want to do it."},{"startTime":2118.63,"endTime":2120.76,"body":"So, they can appreciate that"},{"startTime":2118.63,"endTime":2120.76,"body":"other people might be happy"},{"startTime":2120.76,"endTime":2121.81,"body":"to be involved,"},{"startTime":2121.81,"endTime":2123.85,"body":"they can appreciate why"},{"startTime":2121.81,"endTime":2123.85,"body":"somebody would want to do it,"},{"startTime":2123.85,"endTime":2126.15,"body":"but they personally don't"},{"startTime":2123.85,"endTime":2126.15,"body":"want to participate."},{"startTime":2127.63,"endTime":2129.46,"body":"On the question of whether"},{"startTime":2127.63,"endTime":2129.46,"body":"they've personally supported"},{"startTime":2129.46,"endTime":2130.51,"body":"or changed a law,"},{"startTime":2130.51,"endTime":2133.09,"body":"so that doctors themselves"},{"startTime":2130.51,"endTime":2133.09,"body":"could administer the drug."},{"startTime":2133.09,"endTime":2134.2,"body":"So, not providing them,"},{"startTime":2134.2,"endTime":2135.88,"body":"not facilitating assisted suicide,"},{"startTime":2135.88,"endTime":2138.7,"body":"but rather performing the"},{"startTime":2135.88,"endTime":2138.7,"body":"ending of life themselves."},{"startTime":2138.7,"endTime":2142.81,"body":"Only 37% were supportive"},{"startTime":2138.7,"endTime":2142.81,"body":"and 46 opposed this."},{"startTime":2142.81,"endTime":2145.122,"body":"So, when it became the"},{"startTime":2142.81,"endTime":2145.122,"body":"doctor's role to end life,"},{"startTime":2145.122,"endTime":2147.79,"body":"there was clear opposition to that."},{"startTime":2147.79,"endTime":2149.23,"body":"So, only a third of doctors wanted"},{"startTime":2149.23,"endTime":2150.703,"body":"to participate in euthanasia."},{"startTime":2151.766,"endTime":2154.12,"body":"When asked would you be"},{"startTime":2151.766,"endTime":2154.12,"body":"willing to participate"},{"startTime":2154.12,"endTime":2155.98,"body":"in any way in the process?"},{"startTime":2155.98,"endTime":2157.36,"body":"So, not just whether"},{"startTime":2155.98,"endTime":2157.36,"body":"it would be permitted,"},{"startTime":2157.36,"endTime":2160.27,"body":"but whether they themselves"},{"startTime":2157.36,"endTime":2160.27,"body":"would be prepared to do it."},{"startTime":2160.27,"endTime":2161.11,"body":"Only a quarter,"},{"startTime":2161.11,"endTime":2165.55,"body":"only 26% said yes they would"},{"startTime":2161.11,"endTime":2165.55,"body":"and 54% said no they would not,"},{"startTime":2165.55,"endTime":2166.57,"body":"that they would not be prepared"},{"startTime":2166.57,"endTime":2168.043,"body":"to participate in euthanasia."},{"startTime":2169.78,"endTime":2171.1,"body":"Now, it's really interesting"},{"startTime":2171.1,"endTime":2172.9,"body":"to think about what does this mean?"},{"startTime":2172.9,"endTime":2174.31,"body":"And we can drill down into a bit of it,"},{"startTime":2174.31,"endTime":2175.51,"body":"but for reasons of time,"},{"startTime":2175.51,"endTime":2177.67,"body":"I'm not going to draw deeply into it."},{"startTime":2177.67,"endTime":2179.11,"body":"I think one thing to take from this"},{"startTime":2179.11,"endTime":2179.98,"body":"and I am not a doctor,"},{"startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2183.91,"body":"but it suggests to me that even"},{"startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2183.91,"body":"those who watch people die,"},{"startTime":2183.91,"endTime":2186.79,"body":"experience death the most of all of us"},{"startTime":2186.79,"endTime":2190.06,"body":"and have the most close in"},{"startTime":2186.79,"endTime":2190.06,"body":"perspective in one sense."},{"startTime":2190.06,"endTime":2193.63,"body":"And who also will have had"},{"startTime":2190.06,"endTime":2193.63,"body":"their own personal experiences,"},{"startTime":2193.63,"endTime":2195.97,"body":"slant away from supporting euthanasia,"},{"startTime":2195.97,"endTime":2197.62,"body":"but less so assisted suicide."},{"startTime":2197.62,"endTime":2198.793,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":2199.809,"endTime":2201.52,"body":"And so I often think I wonder,"},{"startTime":2201.52,"endTime":2203.32,"body":"do they know more about"},{"startTime":2201.52,"endTime":2203.32,"body":"death as a profession"},{"startTime":2203.32,"endTime":2204.46,"body":"than the rest of us do?"},{"startTime":2204.46,"endTime":2205.999,"body":"I would say they probably do."},{"startTime":2205.999,"endTime":2208.72,"body":"However, it's also true that many members"},{"startTime":2208.72,"endTime":2210.91,"body":"of the BMA don't work in end of life care."},{"startTime":2210.91,"endTime":2214.66,"body":"And so they may know you"},{"startTime":2210.91,"endTime":2214.66,"body":"know as much as anybody else."},{"startTime":2214.66,"endTime":2216.7,"body":"So, as a group we can't make such a claim."},{"startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2221.41,"body":"Now, the BMA quite wisely"},{"startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2221.41,"body":"anticipated this dimension"},{"startTime":2221.41,"endTime":2224.443,"body":"and broke down the responses by specialty."},{"startTime":2225.37,"endTime":2228.82,"body":"And those who were more"},{"startTime":2225.37,"endTime":2228.82,"body":"supportive of euthanasia"},{"startTime":2228.82,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"and assisted suicide were"},{"startTime":2228.82,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"anesthetics, emergency medicine,"},{"startTime":2232.12,"endTime":2234.88,"body":"intensive care, obstetrics and gynecology."},{"startTime":2234.88,"endTime":2235.87,"body":"But really interestingly,"},{"startTime":2235.87,"endTime":2239.23,"body":"I think those who were more"},{"startTime":2235.87,"endTime":2239.23,"body":"opposed were clinical oncology,"},{"startTime":2239.23,"endTime":2242.2,"body":"GPs, geriatric medicine"},{"startTime":2239.23,"endTime":2242.2,"body":"and palliative care."},{"startTime":2242.2,"endTime":2244.24,"body":"So, the people who do"},{"startTime":2242.2,"endTime":2244.24,"body":"actually work with people"},{"startTime":2244.24,"endTime":2247.06,"body":"who are dying or who are terminally ill,"},{"startTime":2247.06,"endTime":2248.71,"body":"are the ones who are opposed."},{"startTime":2248.71,"endTime":2252.16,"body":"So, the thesis that people"},{"startTime":2248.71,"endTime":2252.16,"body":"who know about death,"},{"startTime":2252.16,"endTime":2254.5,"body":"might be supportive of helping"},{"startTime":2252.16,"endTime":2254.5,"body":"people to end their lives"},{"startTime":2254.5,"endTime":2258.19,"body":"who watch people as they"},{"startTime":2254.5,"endTime":2258.19,"body":"approach the end of the lives,"},{"startTime":2258.19,"endTime":2260.86,"body":"would support ending that isn't true."},{"startTime":2260.86,"endTime":2262.87,"body":"So, actually they are less supportive."},{"startTime":2262.87,"endTime":2263.703,"body":"Now again,"},{"startTime":2263.703,"endTime":2265.9,"body":"you might wonder are they"},{"startTime":2263.703,"endTime":2265.9,"body":"skewed in a different way?"},{"startTime":2265.9,"endTime":2268.24,"body":"Their vocation is to preserve life."},{"startTime":2268.24,"endTime":2270.16,"body":"And it will be understandable"},{"startTime":2268.24,"endTime":2270.16,"body":"if for many of them"},{"startTime":2270.16,"endTime":2273.19,"body":"the idea of then changing"},{"startTime":2270.16,"endTime":2273.19,"body":"to not preserving,"},{"startTime":2273.19,"endTime":2275.79,"body":"but rather ending would be"},{"startTime":2273.19,"endTime":2275.79,"body":"very difficult to accept."},{"startTime":2276.67,"endTime":2278.8,"body":"But particularly those in palliation."},{"startTime":2278.8,"endTime":2280.69,"body":"And I think to be a"},{"startTime":2278.8,"endTime":2280.69,"body":"palliative care specialist,"},{"startTime":2280.69,"endTime":2283.24,"body":"I imagine that you have"},{"startTime":2280.69,"endTime":2283.24,"body":"to be deeply committed"},{"startTime":2283.24,"endTime":2285.52,"body":"to palliation as a response to death."},{"startTime":2285.52,"endTime":2287.5,"body":"That is essentially your vocation."},{"startTime":2287.5,"endTime":2288.97,"body":"But I would also imagine"},{"startTime":2288.97,"endTime":2291.49,"body":"that lots of us who"},{"startTime":2288.97,"endTime":2291.49,"body":"aren't involved at this,"},{"startTime":2291.49,"endTime":2292.84,"body":"would find it difficult to believe"},{"startTime":2292.84,"endTime":2295.6,"body":"that palliation can be as good"},{"startTime":2292.84,"endTime":2295.6,"body":"as we would hope it would be."},{"startTime":2295.6,"endTime":2297.31,"body":"And so I think that we should trust those"},{"startTime":2297.31,"endTime":2299.02,"body":"who actually do provide palliative care"},{"startTime":2299.02,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"when they say actually it can"},{"startTime":2299.02,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"do an enormous amount of work,"},{"startTime":2302.5,"endTime":2304.24,"body":"probably more than you might appreciate."},{"startTime":2304.24,"endTime":2305.65,"body":"And I think this is the kind of context"},{"startTime":2305.65,"endTime":2307.81,"body":"in which we need to listen to experts,"},{"startTime":2307.81,"endTime":2309.49,"body":"about their experience."},{"startTime":2309.49,"endTime":2311.86,"body":"Even though and I have"},{"startTime":2309.49,"endTime":2311.86,"body":"personal experience of this,"},{"startTime":2311.86,"endTime":2313.357,"body":"find it very difficult to do that."},{"startTime":2313.357,"endTime":2315.1,"body":"And any of us who've been"},{"startTime":2313.357,"endTime":2315.1,"body":"involved in these things,"},{"startTime":2315.1,"endTime":2317.916,"body":"I think will find it very difficult."},{"startTime":2317.916,"endTime":2320.05,"body":"This is also true,"},{"startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2322.6,"body":"what comes out of this is that"},{"startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2322.6,"body":"many medical professionals"},{"startTime":2322.6,"endTime":2324.79,"body":"are resistant to having to participate,"},{"startTime":2324.79,"endTime":2328.3,"body":"so that even those who support"},{"startTime":2324.79,"endTime":2328.3,"body":"it don't want to do it."},{"startTime":2328.3,"endTime":2330.85,"body":"Now, whatever solution"},{"startTime":2328.3,"endTime":2330.85,"body":"we propose in the end,"},{"startTime":2330.85,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"that means that we must"},{"startTime":2330.85,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"have a range of ways"},{"startTime":2333.49,"endTime":2335.5,"body":"in which they can conscientiously object"},{"startTime":2335.5,"endTime":2336.55,"body":"and then we might need"},{"startTime":2336.55,"endTime":2338.05,"body":"to have specialized service providers."},{"startTime":2338.05,"endTime":2339.28,"body":"We shouldn't impose on doctors"},{"startTime":2339.28,"endTime":2341.14,"body":"who don't want to end people's lives"},{"startTime":2341.14,"endTime":2342.823,"body":"the responsibility for doing so."},{"startTime":2344.29,"endTime":2345.123,"body":"So unsurprisingly,"},{"startTime":2345.123,"endTime":2346.982,"body":"there's been considerable"},{"startTime":2345.123,"endTime":2346.982,"body":"pressure for change"},{"startTime":2346.982,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"and it is meet with"},{"startTime":2346.982,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"substantial resistance."},{"startTime":2350.11,"endTime":2353.17,"body":"So, they've been high profile"},{"startTime":2350.11,"endTime":2353.17,"body":"campaigns run on both sides."},{"startTime":2353.17,"endTime":2354.4,"body":"They've very emotive."},{"startTime":2354.4,"endTime":2357.52,"body":"In fact, they overtly rely on emotive"},{"startTime":2357.52,"endTime":2360.16,"body":"and personal stories"},{"startTime":2357.52,"endTime":2360.16,"body":"as they rightly should."},{"startTime":2360.16,"endTime":2362.23,"body":"So, Dignity in Dying and Humanist UK,"},{"startTime":2362.23,"endTime":2364.0,"body":"are in favor of changes to the law."},{"startTime":2364.0,"endTime":2367.21,"body":"Care Not Killing, Right To"},{"startTime":2364.0,"endTime":2367.21,"body":"Life Care are opposing change"},{"startTime":2367.21,"endTime":2368.043,"body":"in the law."},{"startTime":2369.01,"endTime":2369.843,"body":"Now at this point,"},{"startTime":2369.843,"endTime":2371.53,"body":"I want to give you an overview"},{"startTime":2369.843,"endTime":2371.53,"body":"of all of these changes."},{"startTime":2371.53,"endTime":2373.33,"body":"'Cause I think it's important"},{"startTime":2371.53,"endTime":2373.33,"body":"to see that this process"},{"startTime":2373.33,"endTime":2375.13,"body":"has been going on for at least 20 years,"},{"startTime":2375.13,"endTime":2376.63,"body":"but certainly longer."},{"startTime":2376.63,"endTime":2379.78,"body":"But the last 20 years we have"},{"startTime":2376.63,"endTime":2379.78,"body":"seen repeated challenges."},{"startTime":2379.78,"endTime":2381.87,"body":"So, we saw Pretty in 2001."},{"startTime":2381.87,"endTime":2383.17,"body":"In 2005,"},{"startTime":2383.17,"endTime":2385.33,"body":"we had the Joffe Bill on assisted dying"},{"startTime":2385.33,"endTime":2386.65,"body":"for the terminally ill."},{"startTime":2386.65,"endTime":2389.62,"body":"Didn't make it past the"},{"startTime":2386.65,"endTime":2389.62,"body":"committee stage of the Lords."},{"startTime":2389.62,"endTime":2391.183,"body":"Purdy's some years later."},{"startTime":2392.05,"endTime":2393.01,"body":"And we know what happened there."},{"startTime":2393.01,"endTime":2394.84,"body":"Nicklison 2014."},{"startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2397.33,"body":"In 2014, we also had the Falconer Bill,"},{"startTime":2397.33,"endTime":2398.92,"body":"again, an assisted dying bill."},{"startTime":2398.92,"endTime":2401.56,"body":"It made its second reading"},{"startTime":2398.92,"endTime":2401.56,"body":"but didn't progress."},{"startTime":2401.56,"endTime":2403.6,"body":"We had the Maurice Bill in 2015"},{"startTime":2403.6,"endTime":2405.22,"body":"that was defeated at second reading,"},{"startTime":2405.22,"endTime":2408.64,"body":"another private member's bill"},{"startTime":2405.22,"endTime":2408.64,"body":"that was modeled on Falconer."},{"startTime":2408.64,"endTime":2409.66,"body":"We had the Conway case"},{"startTime":2409.66,"endTime":2411.85,"body":"and the Newby, Lamb cases in 2018, 2019."},{"startTime":2411.85,"endTime":2414.07,"body":"But most recently we had the Meacher Bill,"},{"startTime":2414.07,"endTime":2418.24,"body":"a private member's bill from May, 2021."},{"startTime":2418.24,"endTime":2420.85,"body":"What that was proposing was"},{"startTime":2418.24,"endTime":2420.85,"body":"that for terminally adults"},{"startTime":2420.85,"endTime":2423.374,"body":"of full capacity who"},{"startTime":2420.85,"endTime":2423.374,"body":"made a voluntary request,"},{"startTime":2423.374,"endTime":2426.25,"body":"who'd be resident in England"},{"startTime":2423.374,"endTime":2426.25,"body":"and Wales else for 12 months,"},{"startTime":2426.25,"endTime":2427.748,"body":"could apply to the high court"},{"startTime":2427.748,"endTime":2431.53,"body":"and that would authorize assisted dying."},{"startTime":2431.53,"endTime":2433.63,"body":"That also didn't get"},{"startTime":2431.53,"endTime":2433.63,"body":"further than second reading"},{"startTime":2433.63,"endTime":2434.68,"body":"in the Lords."},{"startTime":2434.68,"endTime":2436.72,"body":"Now what can we tell from that?"},{"startTime":2436.72,"endTime":2440.47,"body":"Well, it's clear that the"},{"startTime":2436.72,"endTime":2440.47,"body":"courts have resisted change."},{"startTime":2440.47,"endTime":2444.7,"body":"Parliament, albeit in the Lords"},{"startTime":2440.47,"endTime":2444.7,"body":"largely has resisted change."},{"startTime":2444.7,"endTime":2446.26,"body":"So, given we end up,"},{"startTime":2446.26,"endTime":2449.53,"body":"I think with two conflicting"},{"startTime":2446.26,"endTime":2449.53,"body":"pieces of information,"},{"startTime":2449.53,"endTime":2452.83,"body":"we're told that the majority,"},{"startTime":2449.53,"endTime":2452.83,"body":"albeit a small majority,"},{"startTime":2452.83,"endTime":2455.11,"body":"support a change in the law."},{"startTime":2455.11,"endTime":2459.49,"body":"And yet every attempt to"},{"startTime":2455.11,"endTime":2459.49,"body":"make that change has failed."},{"startTime":2459.49,"endTime":2460.637,"body":"So, I've thought to myself,"},{"startTime":2460.637,"endTime":2461.567,"body":"\"Well I wonder,"},{"startTime":2461.567,"endTime":2462.827,"body":"\"I need to really find out why."},{"startTime":2462.827,"endTime":2467.02,"body":"\"What happened in these debates"},{"startTime":2462.827,"endTime":2467.02,"body":"and why were they resisted?\""},{"startTime":2467.02,"endTime":2468.82,"body":"So, I read the hand side last week"},{"startTime":2468.82,"endTime":2470.38,"body":"to see what kinds of arguments were made."},{"startTime":2470.38,"endTime":2473.23,"body":"And I have to say it was a very articulate"},{"startTime":2473.23,"endTime":2475.24,"body":"and thoughtful debate in the Lord's,"},{"startTime":2475.24,"endTime":2477.25,"body":"particularly on the Meacher Bill."},{"startTime":2477.25,"endTime":2478.78,"body":"So, I'll give you a flavor of both sides"},{"startTime":2478.78,"endTime":2480.52,"body":"and then I'm going to"},{"startTime":2478.78,"endTime":2480.52,"body":"turn in my last 15 minutes"},{"startTime":2480.52,"endTime":2484.258,"body":"to talk to you about arguments"},{"startTime":2480.52,"endTime":2484.258,"body":"on either side myself."},{"startTime":2484.258,"endTime":2486.07,"body":"So, in favor of the bills,"},{"startTime":2486.07,"endTime":2488.02,"body":"many comments are made about,"},{"startTime":2488.02,"endTime":2490.96,"body":"we can see models from overseas"},{"startTime":2488.02,"endTime":2490.96,"body":"on which we could draw,"},{"startTime":2490.96,"endTime":2493.63,"body":"people fear a traumatic dying process."},{"startTime":2493.63,"endTime":2495.58,"body":"And there were many impassion statements"},{"startTime":2495.58,"endTime":2498.944,"body":"in the Lords about the"},{"startTime":2495.58,"endTime":2498.944,"body":"pain that people suffered,"},{"startTime":2498.944,"endTime":2502.21,"body":"the anxiety that they and"},{"startTime":2498.944,"endTime":2502.21,"body":"their families suffered."},{"startTime":2502.21,"endTime":2504.91,"body":"Baroness Meacher raised the fact"},{"startTime":2504.91,"endTime":2506.65,"body":"that people are afraid because they think"},{"startTime":2506.65,"endTime":2509.08,"body":"their suffering won't be"},{"startTime":2506.65,"endTime":2509.08,"body":"alleviated by palliation."},{"startTime":2509.08,"endTime":2513.58,"body":"Gave some some quite moving examples"},{"startTime":2513.58,"endTime":2515.47,"body":"and that people were left in a position"},{"startTime":2515.47,"endTime":2516.94,"body":"by the law as it stood,"},{"startTime":2516.94,"endTime":2518.56,"body":"that the only way they"},{"startTime":2516.94,"endTime":2518.56,"body":"could avoid their suffering"},{"startTime":2518.56,"endTime":2520.18,"body":"was to starve themselves to death"},{"startTime":2520.18,"endTime":2521.98,"body":"or to find someone to"},{"startTime":2520.18,"endTime":2521.98,"body":"take their life for them"},{"startTime":2521.98,"endTime":2523.88,"body":"and hope that they weren't prosecuted."},{"startTime":2524.89,"endTime":2526.45,"body":"And it was felt,"},{"startTime":2526.45,"endTime":2529.03,"body":"it was said that now there"},{"startTime":2526.45,"endTime":2529.03,"body":"have been a change in view."},{"startTime":2529.03,"endTime":2529.863,"body":"So, the BMA"},{"startTime":2529.863,"endTime":2531.25,"body":"and the Royal College of Physicians,"},{"startTime":2531.25,"endTime":2534.28,"body":"having changed to"},{"startTime":2531.25,"endTime":2534.28,"body":"withdraw their opposition,"},{"startTime":2534.28,"endTime":2536.41,"body":"changing survey data all seemed to suggest"},{"startTime":2536.41,"endTime":2537.7,"body":"that there have been a change in mood."},{"startTime":2537.7,"endTime":2540.0,"body":"And hence it was time"},{"startTime":2537.7,"endTime":2540.0,"body":"for a change in the law."},{"startTime":2540.97,"endTime":2542.35,"body":"Others suggested that assisted dying,"},{"startTime":2542.35,"endTime":2545.17,"body":"should be regarded not as an"},{"startTime":2542.35,"endTime":2545.17,"body":"alternative to palliation,"},{"startTime":2545.17,"endTime":2546.04,"body":"but as an element,"},{"startTime":2546.04,"endTime":2548.05,"body":"a complimentary part of it."},{"startTime":2548.05,"endTime":2549.61,"body":"Some argued that there"},{"startTime":2548.05,"endTime":2549.61,"body":"have been no evidence"},{"startTime":2549.61,"endTime":2551.05,"body":"of slippery slopes from the arguments"},{"startTime":2551.05,"endTime":2552.4,"body":"that are come to in other countries."},{"startTime":2552.4,"endTime":2554.83,"body":"And so actually introducing"},{"startTime":2552.4,"endTime":2554.83,"body":"a more permissive law,"},{"startTime":2554.83,"endTime":2557.43,"body":"wouldn't be as problematic"},{"startTime":2554.83,"endTime":2557.43,"body":"as we might have assumed."},{"startTime":2558.31,"endTime":2560.053,"body":"That we could put in place safeguards"},{"startTime":2560.053,"endTime":2562.54,"body":"that would in fact be better"},{"startTime":2560.053,"endTime":2562.54,"body":"than the law as it stands."},{"startTime":2562.54,"endTime":2564.73,"body":"Because at the moment,"},{"startTime":2562.54,"endTime":2564.73,"body":"of course as we've seen,"},{"startTime":2564.73,"endTime":2565.99,"body":"there are people who do die,"},{"startTime":2565.99,"endTime":2569.11,"body":"but they die via refusal of"},{"startTime":2565.99,"endTime":2569.11,"body":"treatment, suicidal starvation"},{"startTime":2569.11,"endTime":2569.98,"body":"or they travel."},{"startTime":2569.98,"endTime":2572.83,"body":"And that actually an open regulated system"},{"startTime":2572.83,"endTime":2575.2,"body":"with strong safeguards"},{"startTime":2572.83,"endTime":2575.2,"body":"would be more protective"},{"startTime":2575.2,"endTime":2576.82,"body":"than that system."},{"startTime":2576.82,"endTime":2577.75,"body":"And finally, of course,"},{"startTime":2577.75,"endTime":2580.06,"body":"there were many people who"},{"startTime":2577.75,"endTime":2580.06,"body":"argued as I'll explore later"},{"startTime":2580.06,"endTime":2581.35,"body":"that it is about choice"},{"startTime":2581.35,"endTime":2583.09,"body":"and it's about giving people the decision"},{"startTime":2583.09,"endTime":2584.623,"body":"to say what is right for them."},{"startTime":2585.61,"endTime":2587.68,"body":"So, it was summed up"},{"startTime":2585.61,"endTime":2587.68,"body":"well by Lord Sherborne,"},{"startTime":2587.68,"endTime":2589.277,"body":"he said that, \"Society has decided"},{"startTime":2589.277,"endTime":2590.777,"body":"\"that it knows better than you,"},{"startTime":2590.777,"endTime":2592.787,"body":"\"even though this is the"},{"startTime":2590.777,"endTime":2592.787,"body":"most important decision"},{"startTime":2592.787,"endTime":2594.797,"body":"\"that anybody can take"},{"startTime":2592.787,"endTime":2594.797,"body":"about their own life."},{"startTime":2594.797,"endTime":2595.727,"body":"\"Society has said,"},{"startTime":2595.727,"endTime":2598.397,"body":"\"you are denied that choice"},{"startTime":2595.727,"endTime":2598.397,"body":"and you have to suffer."},{"startTime":2598.397,"endTime":2601.57,"body":"\"I cannot accept that"},{"startTime":2598.397,"endTime":2601.57,"body":"it is wrong and cruel.\""},{"startTime":2601.57,"endTime":2603.91,"body":"So, that was the tenor of the debate"},{"startTime":2603.91,"endTime":2605.353,"body":"for the change in the law."},{"startTime":2606.79,"endTime":2609.61,"body":"There was of course"},{"startTime":2606.79,"endTime":2609.61,"body":"significant opposition as well."},{"startTime":2609.61,"endTime":2610.78,"body":"One of those,"},{"startTime":2610.78,"endTime":2612.79,"body":"one element of that opposition"},{"startTime":2612.79,"endTime":2614.14,"body":"was it actually would be very difficult"},{"startTime":2614.14,"endTime":2616.33,"body":"to put any law into effect."},{"startTime":2616.33,"endTime":2618.43,"body":"So often, and in this case,"},{"startTime":2618.43,"endTime":2620.765,"body":"the idea of six months to live was used."},{"startTime":2620.765,"endTime":2624.16,"body":"That idea of, well, we"},{"startTime":2620.765,"endTime":2624.16,"body":"couldn't actually do that."},{"startTime":2624.16,"endTime":2625.72,"body":"Doctors can't actually tell you"},{"startTime":2625.72,"endTime":2626.98,"body":"how many months you have to live."},{"startTime":2626.98,"endTime":2629.14,"body":"So, the idea that we"},{"startTime":2626.98,"endTime":2629.14,"body":"could draw bright lines,"},{"startTime":2629.14,"endTime":2630.46,"body":"but whether someone is terminally ill"},{"startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2632.41,"body":"and has a certain amount"},{"startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2632.41,"body":"of time until they die,"},{"startTime":2632.41,"endTime":2633.883,"body":"isn't actually realistic."},{"startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2637.36,"body":"It will be difficult"},{"startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2637.36,"body":"to put it into effect,"},{"startTime":2637.36,"endTime":2639.31,"body":"because it would not be easy."},{"startTime":2639.31,"endTime":2640.143,"body":"In fact,"},{"startTime":2640.143,"endTime":2640.976,"body":"it would be very difficult to determine"},{"startTime":2640.976,"endTime":2643.84,"body":"when a decision is competent"},{"startTime":2640.976,"endTime":2643.84,"body":"and free from pressure."},{"startTime":2643.84,"endTime":2646.51,"body":"People were concerned about the"},{"startTime":2643.84,"endTime":2646.51,"body":"workload for the high court."},{"startTime":2646.51,"endTime":2648.7,"body":"People were worried"},{"startTime":2646.51,"endTime":2648.7,"body":"about malicious motives."},{"startTime":2648.7,"endTime":2650.14,"body":"Lord O'Donnell said it's not possible"},{"startTime":2650.14,"endTime":2651.76,"body":"to guard adequately against the abuse"},{"startTime":2651.76,"endTime":2653.53,"body":"of the very elderly and the very ill"},{"startTime":2653.53,"endTime":2656.65,"body":"by greed and manipulative"},{"startTime":2653.53,"endTime":2656.65,"body":"relations and friends."},{"startTime":2656.65,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"Many people raised"},{"startTime":2656.65,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"slippery slope concerns,"},{"startTime":2659.68,"endTime":2661.15,"body":"pointing the expansion of criteria"},{"startTime":2661.15,"endTime":2663.098,"body":"in the Netherlands and Canada"},{"startTime":2663.098,"endTime":2666.46,"body":"and also were deeply concerned,"},{"startTime":2666.46,"endTime":2669.13,"body":"about the need to protect the vulnerable."},{"startTime":2669.13,"endTime":2671.147,"body":"So, Baroness Masham of Ilton said,"},{"startTime":2671.147,"endTime":2672.917,"body":"\"Vulnerable people need protection,"},{"startTime":2672.917,"endTime":2674.327,"body":"\"not the threat of being killed"},{"startTime":2674.327,"endTime":2676.037,"body":"\"if life becomes too difficult."},{"startTime":2676.037,"endTime":2678.877,"body":"\"How can they trust doctors"},{"startTime":2676.037,"endTime":2678.877,"body":"if this bill is accepted?\""},{"startTime":2679.72,"endTime":2680.97,"body":"So, that is where we are."},{"startTime":2683.08,"endTime":2685.573,"body":"So, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2687.43,"endTime":2689.95,"body":"So, what I want to do at this point now"},{"startTime":2689.95,"endTime":2691.87,"body":"is to tell you the"},{"startTime":2689.95,"endTime":2691.87,"body":"argument on the both side."},{"startTime":2691.87,"endTime":2694.037,"body":"Now normally the way I structure"},{"startTime":2691.87,"endTime":2694.037,"body":"something is I want to say,"},{"startTime":2694.037,"endTime":2695.47,"body":"\"Well, here's the argument on one side.\""},{"startTime":2695.47,"endTime":2696.647,"body":"And I will go through"},{"startTime":2695.47,"endTime":2696.647,"body":"that argument and say,"},{"startTime":2696.647,"endTime":2698.958,"body":"\"Well, that's an argument for that side.\""},{"startTime":2698.958,"endTime":2701.86,"body":"And then I would go through"},{"startTime":2698.958,"endTime":2701.86,"body":"an argument on the other."},{"startTime":2701.86,"endTime":2703.78,"body":"But what is really interesting in fact"},{"startTime":2703.78,"endTime":2705.52,"body":"is that in this context,"},{"startTime":2705.52,"endTime":2706.75,"body":"the picture is so complex"},{"startTime":2706.75,"endTime":2709.27,"body":"that it doesn't lend"},{"startTime":2706.75,"endTime":2709.27,"body":"itself to such a breakdown."},{"startTime":2709.27,"endTime":2711.22,"body":"And that's because many of"},{"startTime":2709.27,"endTime":2711.22,"body":"the factors or principles"},{"startTime":2711.22,"endTime":2712.09,"body":"that are raised in the debate,"},{"startTime":2712.09,"endTime":2714.553,"body":"can actually be made as"},{"startTime":2712.09,"endTime":2714.553,"body":"arguments on both sides."},{"startTime":2715.78,"endTime":2718.0,"body":"It's one of those areas"},{"startTime":2715.78,"endTime":2718.0,"body":"of bioethical debate"},{"startTime":2718.0,"endTime":2719.95,"body":"where both sides have similar goals,"},{"startTime":2719.95,"endTime":2722.74,"body":"respecting autonomy,"},{"startTime":2719.95,"endTime":2722.74,"body":"protecting people from harm,"},{"startTime":2722.74,"endTime":2725.29,"body":"but come to opposite conclusions."},{"startTime":2725.29,"endTime":2727.3,"body":"Even as the archbishop of Canterbury said"},{"startTime":2727.3,"endTime":2729.587,"body":"in the House of Lords in the"},{"startTime":2727.3,"endTime":2729.587,"body":"debate on the Meacher Bill,"},{"startTime":2729.587,"endTime":2733.18,"body":"\"Everyone here shares"},{"startTime":2729.587,"endTime":2733.18,"body":"the best of intentions.\""},{"startTime":2733.18,"endTime":2735.07,"body":"So, to see why and to"},{"startTime":2733.18,"endTime":2735.07,"body":"appreciate the complexity"},{"startTime":2735.07,"endTime":2736.27,"body":"of these issues,"},{"startTime":2736.27,"endTime":2737.8,"body":"I'll work through some of the principles"},{"startTime":2737.8,"endTime":2739.15,"body":"and arguments together."},{"startTime":2739.15,"endTime":2740.56,"body":"And so I will give you an argument"},{"startTime":2740.56,"endTime":2743.59,"body":"and I'll give you some"},{"startTime":2740.56,"endTime":2743.59,"body":"some responses to it."},{"startTime":2743.59,"endTime":2745.63,"body":"So, one of the dominant and key arguments"},{"startTime":2745.63,"endTime":2747.64,"body":"is respect for autonomy."},{"startTime":2747.64,"endTime":2750.7,"body":"And autonomy has been a dominant"},{"startTime":2747.64,"endTime":2750.7,"body":"value in medical ethics,"},{"startTime":2750.7,"endTime":2752.83,"body":"since the 80s at least."},{"startTime":2752.83,"endTime":2756.16,"body":"And very much has a very"},{"startTime":2752.83,"endTime":2756.16,"body":"strong power in medical ethics,"},{"startTime":2756.16,"endTime":2759.25,"body":"precisely as a response"},{"startTime":2756.16,"endTime":2759.25,"body":"to things that happened"},{"startTime":2759.25,"endTime":2762.04,"body":"in the 20th Century where"},{"startTime":2759.25,"endTime":2762.04,"body":"autonomy was not respected,"},{"startTime":2762.04,"endTime":2763.57,"body":"not just in the sense of doctor,"},{"startTime":2763.57,"endTime":2765.43,"body":"knows best approaches in medicine,"},{"startTime":2765.43,"endTime":2769.27,"body":"but in numerous problematic"},{"startTime":2765.43,"endTime":2769.27,"body":"situations such as Tuskegee"},{"startTime":2769.27,"endTime":2771.88,"body":"and experiments and so"},{"startTime":2769.27,"endTime":2771.88,"body":"on that were problematic"},{"startTime":2771.88,"endTime":2773.023,"body":"that I won't go into."},{"startTime":2774.13,"endTime":2776.05,"body":"Why do we want to"},{"startTime":2774.13,"endTime":2776.05,"body":"respect people's autonomy"},{"startTime":2776.05,"endTime":2777.463,"body":"and what do we mean by it?"},{"startTime":2778.51,"endTime":2780.64,"body":"Well, we mean the ability"},{"startTime":2778.51,"endTime":2780.64,"body":"to make competent choices,"},{"startTime":2780.64,"endTime":2782.23,"body":"about our lives."},{"startTime":2782.23,"endTime":2783.063,"body":"And we value it,"},{"startTime":2783.063,"endTime":2785.95,"body":"because we value being in"},{"startTime":2783.063,"endTime":2785.95,"body":"control of our own lives."},{"startTime":2785.95,"endTime":2788.503,"body":"We take values simply by"},{"startTime":2785.95,"endTime":2788.503,"body":"making our own decisions,"},{"startTime":2789.37,"endTime":2790.51,"body":"but we also value it,"},{"startTime":2790.51,"endTime":2793.3,"body":"because we can bring our own"},{"startTime":2790.51,"endTime":2793.3,"body":"subjective values to bear."},{"startTime":2793.3,"endTime":2795.64,"body":"We know what is best for us,"},{"startTime":2795.64,"endTime":2796.6,"body":"and if we choose it,"},{"startTime":2796.6,"endTime":2798.37,"body":"we'll be more likely than anybody else"},{"startTime":2798.37,"endTime":2799.84,"body":"to know what will make our lives go well."},{"startTime":2799.84,"endTime":2802.03,"body":"That is the presumption that"},{"startTime":2799.84,"endTime":2802.03,"body":"I know what is good for me"},{"startTime":2802.03,"endTime":2803.44,"body":"and you know what is good for you."},{"startTime":2803.44,"endTime":2804.94,"body":"And so I should choose for me,"},{"startTime":2804.94,"endTime":2806.62,"body":"it is more likely that"},{"startTime":2804.94,"endTime":2806.62,"body":"I will make the choice"},{"startTime":2806.62,"endTime":2808.153,"body":"that makes my life go well."},{"startTime":2809.17,"endTime":2813.1,"body":"However, autonomy isn't"},{"startTime":2809.17,"endTime":2813.1,"body":"really as simple as that."},{"startTime":2813.1,"endTime":2814.63,"body":"So, Sarah Conley points out"},{"startTime":2814.63,"endTime":2817.12,"body":"that often we actually don't"},{"startTime":2814.63,"endTime":2817.12,"body":"know what is best for us"},{"startTime":2817.12,"endTime":2820.63,"body":"and that we make bad decisions"},{"startTime":2817.12,"endTime":2820.63,"body":"because we're afraid,"},{"startTime":2820.63,"endTime":2822.52,"body":"because we don't understand things,"},{"startTime":2822.52,"endTime":2823.63,"body":"because we're influenced by things,"},{"startTime":2823.63,"endTime":2824.71,"body":"we shouldn't be influenced by,"},{"startTime":2824.71,"endTime":2826.75,"body":"because we are essentially human."},{"startTime":2826.75,"endTime":2828.49,"body":"And so much of the debate around autonomy"},{"startTime":2828.49,"endTime":2831.46,"body":"is about whether or not"},{"startTime":2828.49,"endTime":2831.46,"body":"people really are capable"},{"startTime":2831.46,"endTime":2833.14,"body":"of making autonomous choices"},{"startTime":2833.14,"endTime":2834.55,"body":"that do make their lives go well,"},{"startTime":2834.55,"endTime":2836.62,"body":"and whether in fact we"},{"startTime":2834.55,"endTime":2836.62,"body":"ought to prevent people"},{"startTime":2836.62,"endTime":2838.62,"body":"from making choices that will harm them."},{"startTime":2839.86,"endTime":2841.03,"body":"The other dimension to this"},{"startTime":2841.03,"endTime":2843.58,"body":"is whether or not our"},{"startTime":2841.03,"endTime":2843.58,"body":"choices are ever really free."},{"startTime":2844.57,"endTime":2845.95,"body":"So, the idea is meant to be"},{"startTime":2845.95,"endTime":2847.41,"body":"that I make a voluntary informed choice."},{"startTime":2847.41,"endTime":2850.99,"body":"It is my decision that reflects my values,"},{"startTime":2850.99,"endTime":2853.54,"body":"but actually many of our"},{"startTime":2850.99,"endTime":2853.54,"body":"choices aren't very authentic."},{"startTime":2853.54,"endTime":2855.85,"body":"We might feel pressure,"},{"startTime":2853.54,"endTime":2855.85,"body":"we might feel guilt."},{"startTime":2855.85,"endTime":2857.98,"body":"And these are issues"},{"startTime":2855.85,"endTime":2857.98,"body":"particularly at the end of life"},{"startTime":2857.98,"endTime":2859.36,"body":"when people do feel pressure"},{"startTime":2859.36,"endTime":2861.7,"body":"and they do feel that they're a burden."},{"startTime":2861.7,"endTime":2865.03,"body":"And this is particularly true"},{"startTime":2861.7,"endTime":2865.03,"body":"of people who are vulnerable"},{"startTime":2865.03,"endTime":2867.34,"body":"and people are vulnerable"},{"startTime":2865.03,"endTime":2867.34,"body":"at the end of life."},{"startTime":2867.34,"endTime":2868.998,"body":"So, this is an issue"},{"startTime":2868.998,"endTime":2872.773,"body":"of serious importance in"},{"startTime":2868.998,"endTime":2872.773,"body":"debates about assisted dying."},{"startTime":2873.67,"endTime":2875.86,"body":"But when you take away someone's autonomy,"},{"startTime":2875.86,"endTime":2877.84,"body":"it feels like a terrible thing,"},{"startTime":2877.84,"endTime":2879.73,"body":"particularly in the context of death."},{"startTime":2879.73,"endTime":2880.75,"body":"And that is because death"},{"startTime":2880.75,"endTime":2882.04,"body":"is probably the most personal thing"},{"startTime":2882.04,"endTime":2883.9,"body":"that will ever happen to any of us."},{"startTime":2883.9,"endTime":2884.733,"body":"So, Dworkin says,"},{"startTime":2884.733,"endTime":2887.627,"body":"\"Making someone die in a"},{"startTime":2884.733,"endTime":2887.627,"body":"way that others approve of,"},{"startTime":2887.627,"endTime":2889.577,"body":"\"but which he believes a"},{"startTime":2887.627,"endTime":2889.577,"body":"horrifying contradiction"},{"startTime":2889.577,"endTime":2893.077,"body":"\"of his life is a devastating"},{"startTime":2889.577,"endTime":2893.077,"body":"odious form of tyranny.\""},{"startTime":2894.7,"endTime":2896.98,"body":"When we permit people's"},{"startTime":2894.7,"endTime":2896.98,"body":"choices about death,"},{"startTime":2896.98,"endTime":2898.54,"body":"we do promote their autonomy."},{"startTime":2898.54,"endTime":2899.83,"body":"We respect their personal views,"},{"startTime":2899.83,"endTime":2901.96,"body":"we allow them to die as they wish."},{"startTime":2901.96,"endTime":2903.79,"body":"And if we restrict that choice,"},{"startTime":2903.79,"endTime":2905.29,"body":"then they might do it anyway."},{"startTime":2905.29,"endTime":2906.31,"body":"But what will actually happen"},{"startTime":2906.31,"endTime":2908.95,"body":"is they will have worse deaths arguably."},{"startTime":2908.95,"endTime":2910.51,"body":"So, Baroness Meacher made this point"},{"startTime":2910.51,"endTime":2911.987,"body":"in the Lords when she said,"},{"startTime":2911.987,"endTime":2913.967,"body":"\"We'll hear much today"},{"startTime":2911.987,"endTime":2913.967,"body":"about vulnerable people."},{"startTime":2913.967,"endTime":2915.347,"body":"\"And that is absolutely right,"},{"startTime":2915.347,"endTime":2917.267,"body":"\"but there are no legal"},{"startTime":2915.347,"endTime":2917.267,"body":"safeguards for dying people"},{"startTime":2917.267,"endTime":2918.977,"body":"\"who decide that end their lives early,"},{"startTime":2918.977,"endTime":2921.617,"body":"\"whether by starving"},{"startTime":2918.977,"endTime":2921.617,"body":"or shooting themselves,"},{"startTime":2921.617,"endTime":2923.21,"body":"\"we propose a rigorously safeguard system"},{"startTime":2923.21,"endTime":2925.037,"body":"\"that would end these barbarous deaths"},{"startTime":2925.037,"endTime":2927.01,"body":"\"and protect vulnerable people.\""},{"startTime":2927.01,"endTime":2929.74,"body":"So when we don't give people choices,"},{"startTime":2929.74,"endTime":2931.24,"body":"we don't give them good options."},{"startTime":2931.24,"endTime":2932.856,"body":"They resort to bad options,"},{"startTime":2932.856,"endTime":2934.706,"body":"so that they can have what they want."},{"startTime":2935.613,"endTime":2937.54,"body":"There are many responses to this."},{"startTime":2937.54,"endTime":2938.85,"body":"One is, and we'll come back to this,"},{"startTime":2938.85,"endTime":2940.75,"body":"is the idea that life is sacred."},{"startTime":2940.75,"endTime":2942.82,"body":"That actually life is so precious"},{"startTime":2942.82,"endTime":2944.86,"body":"that it should be protected."},{"startTime":2944.86,"endTime":2947.56,"body":"Another is that our death"},{"startTime":2944.86,"endTime":2947.56,"body":"isn't a self-regarding act."},{"startTime":2947.56,"endTime":2949.24,"body":"It actually affects other people."},{"startTime":2949.24,"endTime":2951.19,"body":"And this is an argument"},{"startTime":2949.24,"endTime":2951.19,"body":"for restraining that choice"},{"startTime":2951.19,"endTime":2952.24,"body":"that when I make a decision,"},{"startTime":2952.24,"endTime":2953.98,"body":"I don't just affect myself,"},{"startTime":2953.98,"endTime":2956.08,"body":"I affect many people around me"},{"startTime":2956.08,"endTime":2958.027,"body":"and that will be doctors and"},{"startTime":2956.08,"endTime":2958.027,"body":"it will be my family members"},{"startTime":2958.027,"endTime":2959.877,"body":"and my friends and those who love me."},{"startTime":2962.23,"endTime":2964.39,"body":"We would also say that"},{"startTime":2962.23,"endTime":2964.39,"body":"protecting the autonomy"},{"startTime":2964.39,"endTime":2966.79,"body":"of one person might undermine others."},{"startTime":2966.79,"endTime":2968.77,"body":"So giving one person their choice,"},{"startTime":2968.77,"endTime":2970.51,"body":"because they are competent and capacities"},{"startTime":2970.51,"endTime":2972.16,"body":"and able to make it,"},{"startTime":2972.16,"endTime":2973.78,"body":"means that we give everybody their choice."},{"startTime":2973.78,"endTime":2976.54,"body":"And that means those who"},{"startTime":2973.78,"endTime":2976.54,"body":"can't make their own choices"},{"startTime":2976.54,"endTime":2979.54,"body":"or can't make good choices"},{"startTime":2976.54,"endTime":2979.54,"body":"for themselves will be harmed."},{"startTime":2979.54,"endTime":2980.803,"body":"So there is a cost."},{"startTime":2981.82,"endTime":2983.86,"body":"Some suggested actually a"},{"startTime":2981.82,"endTime":2983.86,"body":"choice to die of somebody"},{"startTime":2983.86,"endTime":2986.08,"body":"who is in a state like Tony Nicklison"},{"startTime":2986.08,"endTime":2987.73,"body":"or someone who is close to death,"},{"startTime":2987.73,"endTime":2989.62,"body":"can't ever actually be fully autonomous."},{"startTime":2989.62,"endTime":2992.59,"body":"It can't be a full rich decision,"},{"startTime":2992.59,"endTime":2994.0,"body":"partly because they might be depressed."},{"startTime":2994.0,"endTime":2995.05,"body":"And in fact we know this,"},{"startTime":2995.05,"endTime":2997.09,"body":"that many people suffer depression"},{"startTime":2995.05,"endTime":2997.09,"body":"towards the end of life,"},{"startTime":2997.09,"endTime":2998.41,"body":"quite understandably."},{"startTime":2998.41,"endTime":3000.36,"body":"And that when they are less depressed"},{"startTime":3000.36,"endTime":3001.26,"body":"or when that is treated,"},{"startTime":3001.26,"endTime":3002.64,"body":"many of them change their minds"},{"startTime":3002.64,"endTime":3004.59,"body":"and don't want to opt for assisted dying."},{"startTime":3006.432,"endTime":3008.13,"body":"John Keown makes this point"},{"startTime":3008.13,"endTime":3010.38,"body":"when he talks about how actually"},{"startTime":3008.13,"endTime":3010.38,"body":"many autonomous requests"},{"startTime":3010.38,"endTime":3012.561,"body":"for assisted dying actually evaporate"},{"startTime":3012.561,"endTime":3014.73,"body":"and when the depression is treated,"},{"startTime":3014.73,"endTime":3017.393,"body":"and I think it's really"},{"startTime":3014.73,"endTime":3017.393,"body":"important to be mindful of that."},{"startTime":3018.45,"endTime":3019.68,"body":"But of course a response to that is,"},{"startTime":3019.68,"endTime":3021.72,"body":"well, that isn't an argument"},{"startTime":3019.68,"endTime":3021.72,"body":"against assisted dying."},{"startTime":3021.72,"endTime":3023.67,"body":"That's an argument for better support"},{"startTime":3023.67,"endTime":3026.336,"body":"and making sure that we treat"},{"startTime":3023.67,"endTime":3026.336,"body":"people who are depressed."},{"startTime":3026.336,"endTime":3028.08,"body":"But if unless it's the case"},{"startTime":3028.08,"endTime":3031.14,"body":"that everybody changes"},{"startTime":3028.08,"endTime":3031.14,"body":"their mind after treatment,"},{"startTime":3031.14,"endTime":3032.4,"body":"which isn't the case,"},{"startTime":3032.4,"endTime":3033.84,"body":"it means we will still always,"},{"startTime":3033.84,"endTime":3035.55,"body":"thwart some people settle desires"},{"startTime":3035.55,"endTime":3037.95,"body":"if we don't allow them"},{"startTime":3035.55,"endTime":3037.95,"body":"access to assisted dying."},{"startTime":3038.82,"endTime":3040.32,"body":"Others suggest that a request to die"},{"startTime":3040.32,"endTime":3042.45,"body":"is actually a cry for help"},{"startTime":3042.45,"endTime":3044.82,"body":"and that what we should"},{"startTime":3042.45,"endTime":3044.82,"body":"do rather than acquiesce"},{"startTime":3044.82,"endTime":3047.16,"body":"or is in fact we should help them."},{"startTime":3047.16,"endTime":3048.93,"body":"So, they aren't saying"},{"startTime":3047.16,"endTime":3048.93,"body":"they really want to die."},{"startTime":3048.93,"endTime":3050.017,"body":"What they're saying is,"},{"startTime":3050.017,"endTime":3051.397,"body":"\"I'm in pain, I'm in distress,"},{"startTime":3051.397,"endTime":3053.097,"body":"\"and what I need is better care.\""},{"startTime":3054.57,"endTime":3057.3,"body":"We also know that some"},{"startTime":3054.57,"endTime":3057.3,"body":"people change their minds"},{"startTime":3057.3,"endTime":3059.01,"body":"and this is particularly a problem"},{"startTime":3059.01,"endTime":3060.93,"body":"if we allow euthanasia assisted dying"},{"startTime":3060.93,"endTime":3062.31,"body":"where people are not close to death."},{"startTime":3062.31,"endTime":3066.66,"body":"So, Dworkin talks about the"},{"startTime":3062.31,"endTime":3066.66,"body":"love sick teenager problem."},{"startTime":3066.66,"endTime":3068.97,"body":"The idea, and I work on"},{"startTime":3066.66,"endTime":3068.97,"body":"this with my students,"},{"startTime":3068.97,"endTime":3072.06,"body":"is the idea that you"},{"startTime":3068.97,"endTime":3072.06,"body":"might find 17 year old"},{"startTime":3072.06,"endTime":3074.49,"body":"and they break up with their"},{"startTime":3072.06,"endTime":3074.49,"body":"first boyfriend or girlfriend"},{"startTime":3074.49,"endTime":3075.427,"body":"and they're so distraught and they say,"},{"startTime":3075.427,"endTime":3076.62,"body":"\"I want to die\""},{"startTime":3076.62,"endTime":3078.99,"body":"and you would never, I"},{"startTime":3076.62,"endTime":3078.99,"body":"think, agree with them."},{"startTime":3078.99,"endTime":3079.823,"body":"And the reason is,"},{"startTime":3079.823,"endTime":3081.54,"body":"because we know that they"},{"startTime":3079.823,"endTime":3081.54,"body":"will change their mind."},{"startTime":3081.54,"endTime":3084.21,"body":"Almost invariably people"},{"startTime":3081.54,"endTime":3084.21,"body":"change their minds"},{"startTime":3084.21,"endTime":3087.012,"body":"and we need to leave space"},{"startTime":3084.21,"endTime":3087.012,"body":"for that to be true as well,"},{"startTime":3087.012,"endTime":3090.663,"body":"rather than enabling them to"},{"startTime":3087.012,"endTime":3090.663,"body":"make of such a final decision."},{"startTime":3092.4,"endTime":3093.9,"body":"The other issue as well is that of course,"},{"startTime":3093.9,"endTime":3095.4,"body":"in a perfect permissive system,"},{"startTime":3095.4,"endTime":3099.3,"body":"it might be the case that we"},{"startTime":3095.4,"endTime":3099.3,"body":"captured everybody's choices,"},{"startTime":3099.3,"endTime":3101.22,"body":"but the reality is that won't be true."},{"startTime":3101.22,"endTime":3102.9,"body":"There'll be people who are pressured"},{"startTime":3102.9,"endTime":3104.49,"body":"and whatever system we put in place,"},{"startTime":3104.49,"endTime":3106.23,"body":"we won't be able to prevent that."},{"startTime":3106.23,"endTime":3107.76,"body":"Pressure can be subtle"},{"startTime":3107.76,"endTime":3110.19,"body":"and it's going to affect"},{"startTime":3107.76,"endTime":3110.19,"body":"the vulnerable most,"},{"startTime":3110.19,"endTime":3112.555,"body":"particularly those"},{"startTime":3110.19,"endTime":3112.555,"body":"without support networks."},{"startTime":3112.555,"endTime":3114.99,"body":"And Katrina George makes"},{"startTime":3112.555,"endTime":3114.99,"body":"the point that women"},{"startTime":3114.99,"endTime":3117.36,"body":"in particular feel this pressure the most,"},{"startTime":3117.36,"endTime":3121.26,"body":"not to be a burden to carry"},{"startTime":3117.36,"endTime":3121.26,"body":"on their social roles."},{"startTime":3121.26,"endTime":3124.41,"body":"There will be abuse by family members,"},{"startTime":3124.41,"endTime":3126.27,"body":"by doctors, by hospitals."},{"startTime":3126.27,"endTime":3130.29,"body":"We cannot believe that we"},{"startTime":3126.27,"endTime":3130.29,"body":"can make a perfect system,"},{"startTime":3130.29,"endTime":3133.02,"body":"but we could say that at least"},{"startTime":3130.29,"endTime":3133.02,"body":"bring it out into the open,"},{"startTime":3133.02,"endTime":3135.51,"body":"prevents abuse that probably happens now."},{"startTime":3135.51,"endTime":3138.21,"body":"So, at least we will be"},{"startTime":3135.51,"endTime":3138.21,"body":"able to openly discuss it"},{"startTime":3138.21,"endTime":3140.583,"body":"and openly look for problems."},{"startTime":3142.08,"endTime":3144.0,"body":"The other issue is that"},{"startTime":3142.08,"endTime":3144.0,"body":"people at the end of life,"},{"startTime":3144.0,"endTime":3145.65,"body":"will feel like a burden"},{"startTime":3145.65,"endTime":3148.11,"body":"and that they should feel"},{"startTime":3145.65,"endTime":3148.11,"body":"they ought to end their lives"},{"startTime":3148.11,"endTime":3150.0,"body":"and to remove themselves."},{"startTime":3150.0,"endTime":3151.47,"body":"And I think that would"},{"startTime":3150.0,"endTime":3151.47,"body":"be particularly likely"},{"startTime":3151.47,"endTime":3154.561,"body":"in cases where a loved one"},{"startTime":3151.47,"endTime":3154.561,"body":"is taken on a care burden."},{"startTime":3154.561,"endTime":3156.18,"body":"As the BMA has pointed out"},{"startTime":3156.18,"endTime":3158.73,"body":"in the absence of assisted dying laws,"},{"startTime":3158.73,"endTime":3160.62,"body":"people can voice these concerns,"},{"startTime":3160.62,"endTime":3163.62,"body":"because they feel safe that"},{"startTime":3160.62,"endTime":3163.62,"body":"their lives won't be ended."},{"startTime":3163.62,"endTime":3165.06,"body":"The BMA is not suggesting"},{"startTime":3163.62,"endTime":3165.06,"body":"this will happen,"},{"startTime":3165.06,"endTime":3168.03,"body":"but it is an argument that"},{"startTime":3165.06,"endTime":3168.03,"body":"was made, that they raised"},{"startTime":3168.03,"endTime":3170.16,"body":"and that actually some patients,"},{"startTime":3170.16,"endTime":3172.35,"body":"might believe that a"},{"startTime":3170.16,"endTime":3172.35,"body":"doctor will give up on them"},{"startTime":3172.35,"endTime":3173.82,"body":"if they express their concerns"},{"startTime":3173.82,"endTime":3177.42,"body":"and therefore it is better"},{"startTime":3173.82,"endTime":3177.42,"body":"to leave it not an option."},{"startTime":3177.42,"endTime":3179.28,"body":"So, they feel safe at"},{"startTime":3177.42,"endTime":3179.28,"body":"least speaking openly,"},{"startTime":3179.28,"endTime":3180.28,"body":"about how they feel."},{"startTime":3182.406,"endTime":3184.23,"body":"There are also those,"},{"startTime":3184.23,"endTime":3186.067,"body":"and Mary Warnock is one"},{"startTime":3184.23,"endTime":3186.067,"body":"of them who have said,"},{"startTime":3186.067,"endTime":3187.507,"body":"\"Well, actually, perhaps it's right."},{"startTime":3187.507,"endTime":3189.06,"body":"\"You should feel like a burden.\""},{"startTime":3189.06,"endTime":3191.227,"body":"And she said, John Keown"},{"startTime":3189.06,"endTime":3191.227,"body":"quotes were saying,"},{"startTime":3191.227,"endTime":3193.177,"body":"\"If you're demented, you're"},{"startTime":3191.227,"endTime":3193.177,"body":"wasting people's lives,"},{"startTime":3193.177,"endTime":3194.527,"body":"\"your family's lives,"},{"startTime":3194.527,"endTime":3197.13,"body":"\"you're wasting the resources of the NHS.\""},{"startTime":3197.13,"endTime":3199.86,"body":"And I think that is"},{"startTime":3197.13,"endTime":3199.86,"body":"exactly the kind of view"},{"startTime":3199.86,"endTime":3201.63,"body":"that people are very afraid of,"},{"startTime":3201.63,"endTime":3203.82,"body":"is not only that people will"},{"startTime":3201.63,"endTime":3203.82,"body":"feel their own sense of burden,"},{"startTime":3203.82,"endTime":3205.95,"body":"but that others will make"},{"startTime":3203.82,"endTime":3205.95,"body":"them feel like a burden."},{"startTime":3205.95,"endTime":3206.94,"body":"And that that is wrong,"},{"startTime":3206.94,"endTime":3208.83,"body":"because they won't then be making,"},{"startTime":3208.83,"endTime":3211.53,"body":"a voluntary and settled"},{"startTime":3208.83,"endTime":3211.53,"body":"choice for themselves."},{"startTime":3211.53,"endTime":3213.66,"body":"They'll be making their"},{"startTime":3211.53,"endTime":3213.66,"body":"choice for somebody else,"},{"startTime":3213.66,"endTime":3215.91,"body":"which if your goal is to"},{"startTime":3213.66,"endTime":3215.91,"body":"give people their autonomy"},{"startTime":3215.91,"endTime":3217.02,"body":"and make their lives go better,"},{"startTime":3217.02,"endTime":3219.093,"body":"seems to me completely perverse."},{"startTime":3220.71,"endTime":3222.48,"body":"The other reason that people might support"},{"startTime":3222.48,"endTime":3224.31,"body":"or one might support"},{"startTime":3222.48,"endTime":3224.31,"body":"euthanasia assisted dying,"},{"startTime":3224.31,"endTime":3226.68,"body":"of course is preventing harm."},{"startTime":3226.68,"endTime":3229.23,"body":"And that's what we see in"},{"startTime":3226.68,"endTime":3229.23,"body":"discussions like Tony Nicklison."},{"startTime":3229.23,"endTime":3232.29,"body":"He's explaining that his"},{"startTime":3229.23,"endTime":3232.29,"body":"situation is harming."},{"startTime":3232.29,"endTime":3234.39,"body":"And it might also be that"},{"startTime":3232.29,"endTime":3234.39,"body":"we want to give people"},{"startTime":3234.39,"endTime":3235.223,"body":"their preferences."},{"startTime":3235.223,"endTime":3236.7,"body":"Some people gain peace from knowing"},{"startTime":3236.7,"endTime":3239.37,"body":"that they will have control"},{"startTime":3236.7,"endTime":3239.37,"body":"over how and when they'll die."},{"startTime":3239.37,"endTime":3242.91,"body":"They want to die at a particular"},{"startTime":3239.37,"endTime":3242.91,"body":"time in a particular place."},{"startTime":3242.91,"endTime":3244.71,"body":"James Rachels talks about how it is cruel"},{"startTime":3244.71,"endTime":3247.8,"body":"to withhold from someone a swift death,"},{"startTime":3247.8,"endTime":3249.57,"body":"but permit them a slow death"},{"startTime":3249.57,"endTime":3252.81,"body":"that we aren't giving them a"},{"startTime":3249.57,"endTime":3252.81,"body":"range of good choices to make."},{"startTime":3252.81,"endTime":3254.61,"body":"So, there are clear harm arguments,"},{"startTime":3254.61,"endTime":3256.5,"body":"but of course there is a"},{"startTime":3254.61,"endTime":3256.5,"body":"response to that as well."},{"startTime":3256.5,"endTime":3258.54,"body":"And that is that actually"},{"startTime":3256.5,"endTime":3258.54,"body":"what that means perhaps"},{"startTime":3258.54,"endTime":3259.74,"body":"is that we need better palliation"},{"startTime":3259.74,"endTime":3261.87,"body":"and better supportive care."},{"startTime":3261.87,"endTime":3264.27,"body":"Here I think we end up"},{"startTime":3261.87,"endTime":3264.27,"body":"in one of the problems,"},{"startTime":3264.27,"endTime":3267.12,"body":"which is we have a debate"},{"startTime":3264.27,"endTime":3267.12,"body":"in either direction."},{"startTime":3267.12,"endTime":3268.89,"body":"Can palliation end all pain and suffering"},{"startTime":3268.89,"endTime":3269.723,"body":"at the end of life?"},{"startTime":3269.723,"endTime":3271.17,"body":"No, I don't think that it can,"},{"startTime":3271.17,"endTime":3273.75,"body":"but it can probably do more"},{"startTime":3271.17,"endTime":3273.75,"body":"than many people think."},{"startTime":3273.75,"endTime":3275.04,"body":"It's not just about pain management,"},{"startTime":3275.04,"endTime":3277.47,"body":"it's about managing distressing"},{"startTime":3275.04,"endTime":3277.47,"body":"symptoms and anxiety"},{"startTime":3277.47,"endTime":3279.6,"body":"and mobility issues and so forth."},{"startTime":3279.6,"endTime":3281.22,"body":"But we will always have cases of people"},{"startTime":3281.22,"endTime":3282.87,"body":"who fall through the cracks."},{"startTime":3282.87,"endTime":3284.64,"body":"So, Heather McQueen talks"},{"startTime":3282.87,"endTime":3284.64,"body":"about her mother's death"},{"startTime":3284.64,"endTime":3286.147,"body":"on Dignity in Dying"},{"startTime":3284.64,"endTime":3286.147,"body":"website where she says,"},{"startTime":3286.147,"endTime":3289.289,"body":"\"We watched everything"},{"startTime":3286.147,"endTime":3289.289,"body":"unfold in its full horror.\""},{"startTime":3289.289,"endTime":3292.387,"body":"Sally Briden talks on Dignity"},{"startTime":3289.289,"endTime":3292.387,"body":"in Dying as well saying,"},{"startTime":3292.387,"endTime":3295.177,"body":"\"My thoughts are filled with"},{"startTime":3292.387,"endTime":3295.177,"body":"anxiety and fear that my pain"},{"startTime":3295.177,"endTime":3297.487,"body":"\"and sickness will not be controllable."},{"startTime":3297.487,"endTime":3300.007,"body":"\"And having the option of"},{"startTime":3297.487,"endTime":3300.007,"body":"assisted death would change that."},{"startTime":3300.007,"endTime":3301.807,"body":"\"I think about dying constantly."},{"startTime":3301.807,"endTime":3303.427,"body":"\"What will happen if"},{"startTime":3301.807,"endTime":3303.427,"body":"the tumors on the left"},{"startTime":3303.427,"endTime":3304.417,"body":"\"or the right grow fast."},{"startTime":3304.417,"endTime":3305.707,"body":"\"How am I going to die?"},{"startTime":3305.707,"endTime":3307.62,"body":"\"Whether I will be in pain.\""},{"startTime":3307.62,"endTime":3308.7,"body":"So, even if it were true"},{"startTime":3308.7,"endTime":3310.47,"body":"that palliation could fix everything,"},{"startTime":3310.47,"endTime":3312.15,"body":"I doubt that everybody would believe that."},{"startTime":3312.15,"endTime":3314.52,"body":"So, there will still be"},{"startTime":3312.15,"endTime":3314.52,"body":"some forms of suffering."},{"startTime":3314.52,"endTime":3316.71,"body":"And there are certainly forms of disease"},{"startTime":3316.71,"endTime":3318.48,"body":"where palliation can't"},{"startTime":3316.71,"endTime":3318.48,"body":"take away the impact."},{"startTime":3318.48,"endTime":3321.18,"body":"It can't take away the impact"},{"startTime":3318.48,"endTime":3321.18,"body":"of Parkinson's disease,"},{"startTime":3321.18,"endTime":3323.07,"body":"motor neuron disease, multiple sclerosis,"},{"startTime":3323.07,"endTime":3325.29,"body":"Tony Nicklison situation"},{"startTime":3325.29,"endTime":3328.02,"body":"It can do a lot, but"},{"startTime":3325.29,"endTime":3328.02,"body":"it can't do everything."},{"startTime":3328.02,"endTime":3330.801,"body":"So, of course there are"},{"startTime":3328.02,"endTime":3330.801,"body":"arguments on either side then,"},{"startTime":3330.801,"endTime":3332.94,"body":"and with all of them of course"},{"startTime":3330.801,"endTime":3332.94,"body":"there's a risk of error."},{"startTime":3332.94,"endTime":3334.23,"body":"We might get decisions wrong,"},{"startTime":3334.23,"endTime":3336.27,"body":"we might be wrong about"},{"startTime":3334.23,"endTime":3336.27,"body":"what is good for people."},{"startTime":3336.27,"endTime":3338.853,"body":"We simply cannot have a perfect system."},{"startTime":3340.08,"endTime":3341.343,"body":"So, what should we do?"},{"startTime":3342.75,"endTime":3344.19,"body":"I think the concern here,"},{"startTime":3344.19,"endTime":3345.72,"body":"or the difficulty is"},{"startTime":3345.72,"endTime":3348.54,"body":"that there are always good"},{"startTime":3345.72,"endTime":3348.54,"body":"arguments on both sides."},{"startTime":3348.54,"endTime":3350.58,"body":"There are impacts on one another"},{"startTime":3350.58,"endTime":3352.8,"body":"and there are impacts on ourselves."},{"startTime":3352.8,"endTime":3354.75,"body":"There is the possibility"},{"startTime":3352.8,"endTime":3354.75,"body":"of slippery slope."},{"startTime":3354.75,"endTime":3357.12,"body":"It may well be true that we"},{"startTime":3354.75,"endTime":3357.12,"body":"will slip down that slope"},{"startTime":3357.12,"endTime":3358.92,"body":"and we will become hardened to the harms"},{"startTime":3358.92,"endTime":3359.753,"body":"and we will accept things"},{"startTime":3359.753,"endTime":3361.83,"body":"that we wouldn't otherwise have accepted"},{"startTime":3361.83,"endTime":3363.54,"body":"or it may be that we put in strong stops"},{"startTime":3363.54,"endTime":3364.593,"body":"and that isn't true."},{"startTime":3365.49,"endTime":3367.53,"body":"It is true that there will"},{"startTime":3365.49,"endTime":3367.53,"body":"be an impact on doctors"},{"startTime":3367.53,"endTime":3369.0,"body":"and medical professionals."},{"startTime":3369.0,"endTime":3370.83,"body":"Doctors will be exposed to requests openly"},{"startTime":3370.83,"endTime":3373.721,"body":"from people who wish to die"},{"startTime":3370.83,"endTime":3373.721,"body":"that they don't want to support."},{"startTime":3373.721,"endTime":3376.29,"body":"There will be an impact on the"},{"startTime":3373.721,"endTime":3376.29,"body":"doctor-patient relationship"},{"startTime":3376.29,"endTime":3377.253,"body":"and that is true,"},{"startTime":3378.48,"endTime":3381.06,"body":"but also there will be benefits to people."},{"startTime":3381.06,"endTime":3383.823,"body":"Their choices at the end"},{"startTime":3381.06,"endTime":3383.823,"body":"of life will be respected."},{"startTime":3385.5,"endTime":3387.09,"body":"What I think we need to do then"},{"startTime":3387.09,"endTime":3389.73,"body":"is think there are two ways"},{"startTime":3387.09,"endTime":3389.73,"body":"to get through this I think"},{"startTime":3389.73,"endTime":3390.78,"body":"and one is to accept"},{"startTime":3390.78,"endTime":3393.96,"body":"that it is partly a"},{"startTime":3390.78,"endTime":3393.96,"body":"balance of harms argument"},{"startTime":3393.96,"endTime":3396.69,"body":"and to think what"},{"startTime":3393.96,"endTime":3396.69,"body":"happens if we do nothing?"},{"startTime":3396.69,"endTime":3398.37,"body":"I think the matter is too vexed"},{"startTime":3398.37,"endTime":3400.74,"body":"for the law to manage in some ways."},{"startTime":3400.74,"endTime":3402.988,"body":"If we leave it as it is,"},{"startTime":3402.988,"endTime":3406.95,"body":"there will be few prosecutions,"},{"startTime":3402.988,"endTime":3406.95,"body":"but not very more."},{"startTime":3406.95,"endTime":3408.42,"body":"But I think if we leave it as it is,"},{"startTime":3408.42,"endTime":3409.68,"body":"demonstratively there are people"},{"startTime":3409.68,"endTime":3413.04,"body":"who will fall through the"},{"startTime":3409.68,"endTime":3413.04,"body":"cracks and continue to suffer."},{"startTime":3413.04,"endTime":3414.78,"body":"The problem is once we open up choice"},{"startTime":3414.78,"endTime":3416.19,"body":"as Simon Rippon argues,"},{"startTime":3416.19,"endTime":3419.43,"body":"we create an option and that"},{"startTime":3416.19,"endTime":3419.43,"body":"place is a pressure on someone."},{"startTime":3419.43,"endTime":3422.13,"body":"It stops being the case that"},{"startTime":3419.43,"endTime":3422.13,"body":"you aren't accessing something"},{"startTime":3422.13,"endTime":3424.35,"body":"that doesn't exist and instead"},{"startTime":3422.13,"endTime":3424.35,"body":"you are resisting a choice"},{"startTime":3424.35,"endTime":3426.42,"body":"that you've got, but you"},{"startTime":3424.35,"endTime":3426.42,"body":"don't want to take it."},{"startTime":3426.42,"endTime":3428.28,"body":"And that's quite a different situation."},{"startTime":3428.28,"endTime":3430.717,"body":"It isn't a neutral option"},{"startTime":3428.28,"endTime":3430.717,"body":"just to be permissive and say,"},{"startTime":3430.717,"endTime":3433.35,"body":"\"Well, let's let everybody"},{"startTime":3430.717,"endTime":3433.35,"body":"have their own choice.\""},{"startTime":3433.35,"endTime":3435.15,"body":"It isn't as simple as that"},{"startTime":3433.35,"endTime":3435.15,"body":"because once the choice"},{"startTime":3435.15,"endTime":3436.14,"body":"is on the table,"},{"startTime":3436.14,"endTime":3437.37,"body":"when someone doesn't take it,"},{"startTime":3437.37,"endTime":3438.75,"body":"they are actively not taking it,"},{"startTime":3438.75,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"as opposed to it just not"},{"startTime":3438.75,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"being an option at all."},{"startTime":3441.81,"endTime":3444.6,"body":"So, I think there's only two"},{"startTime":3441.81,"endTime":3444.6,"body":"things we need can think about"},{"startTime":3444.6,"endTime":3445.65,"body":"as our way to get through this."},{"startTime":3445.65,"endTime":3447.87,"body":"And I'm quite mindful of the"},{"startTime":3445.65,"endTime":3447.87,"body":"time and I need to wind up."},{"startTime":3447.87,"endTime":3450.84,"body":"And one of those is that we have to accept"},{"startTime":3450.84,"endTime":3453.09,"body":"that there is a balance of harms here,"},{"startTime":3453.09,"endTime":3455.28,"body":"that there will be harms"},{"startTime":3453.09,"endTime":3455.28,"body":"whichever system we have."},{"startTime":3455.28,"endTime":3456.66,"body":"I've talked to you a lot"},{"startTime":3455.28,"endTime":3456.66,"body":"about some of the harms"},{"startTime":3456.66,"endTime":3458.28,"body":"that we have on either side."},{"startTime":3458.28,"endTime":3459.6,"body":"People will be left to die"},{"startTime":3459.6,"endTime":3462.15,"body":"in ways that they don't"},{"startTime":3459.6,"endTime":3462.15,"body":"want at the moment."},{"startTime":3462.15,"endTime":3464.37,"body":"But on the other side if we"},{"startTime":3462.15,"endTime":3464.37,"body":"have a permissive system,"},{"startTime":3464.37,"endTime":3465.75,"body":"we have to accept that"},{"startTime":3464.37,"endTime":3465.75,"body":"there will be people"},{"startTime":3465.75,"endTime":3468.51,"body":"who die sooner than they"},{"startTime":3465.75,"endTime":3468.51,"body":"would otherwise have died."},{"startTime":3468.51,"endTime":3469.83,"body":"And there will be people who die"},{"startTime":3469.83,"endTime":3470.97,"body":"when they didn't really want to,"},{"startTime":3470.97,"endTime":3472.893,"body":"because our system will be imperfect."},{"startTime":3474.15,"endTime":3479.13,"body":"On that I feel that is a"},{"startTime":3474.15,"endTime":3479.13,"body":"matter for personal debate"},{"startTime":3479.13,"endTime":3479.963,"body":"in one sense."},{"startTime":3479.963,"endTime":3481.5,"body":"But my view is that"},{"startTime":3481.5,"endTime":3483.96,"body":"and this is the part where I think"},{"startTime":3483.96,"endTime":3485.73,"body":"it is slightly controversial to say,"},{"startTime":3485.73,"endTime":3488.34,"body":"but I think that the harms"},{"startTime":3485.73,"endTime":3488.34,"body":"of leaving people to live"},{"startTime":3488.34,"endTime":3490.98,"body":"in a way that they find"},{"startTime":3488.34,"endTime":3490.98,"body":"deeply problematic,"},{"startTime":3490.98,"endTime":3494.4,"body":"are probably worse than"},{"startTime":3490.98,"endTime":3494.4,"body":"the harms of the shortening"},{"startTime":3494.4,"endTime":3495.54,"body":"of some lives."},{"startTime":3495.54,"endTime":3497.79,"body":"But even that I find a difficult thing"},{"startTime":3497.79,"endTime":3498.99,"body":"when I hear myself say it,"},{"startTime":3498.99,"endTime":3501.54,"body":"I think even I find it"},{"startTime":3498.99,"endTime":3501.54,"body":"hard to completely commit"},{"startTime":3501.54,"endTime":3502.373,"body":"to that position."},{"startTime":3502.373,"endTime":3503.24,"body":"And that's certainly one of the positions"},{"startTime":3503.24,"endTime":3505.26,"body":"in which I would like"},{"startTime":3503.24,"endTime":3505.26,"body":"to hear what you think."},{"startTime":3505.26,"endTime":3507.87,"body":"I certainly feel conflicted on it,"},{"startTime":3507.87,"endTime":3510.63,"body":"and I say that as someone"},{"startTime":3507.87,"endTime":3510.63,"body":"who has watched someone die"},{"startTime":3510.63,"endTime":3511.68,"body":"and suffer greatly."},{"startTime":3511.68,"endTime":3513.54,"body":"And so I do feel quite strongly about it,"},{"startTime":3513.54,"endTime":3516.24,"body":"but I'm also very mindful"},{"startTime":3513.54,"endTime":3516.24,"body":"that it's easy to think"},{"startTime":3516.24,"endTime":3518.25,"body":"that a little bit of"},{"startTime":3516.24,"endTime":3518.25,"body":"lost life isn't so bad,"},{"startTime":3518.25,"endTime":3519.761,"body":"as that suffering."},{"startTime":3519.761,"endTime":3521.94,"body":"So, I think the only"},{"startTime":3519.761,"endTime":3521.94,"body":"way you can resolve it"},{"startTime":3521.94,"endTime":3523.68,"body":"is to look at what are our key values."},{"startTime":3523.68,"endTime":3525.51,"body":"So, one of our values is to be beneficent"},{"startTime":3525.51,"endTime":3527.73,"body":"and do good for people."},{"startTime":3527.73,"endTime":3530.76,"body":"But I think fundamentally we"},{"startTime":3527.73,"endTime":3530.76,"body":"are committed as a society"},{"startTime":3530.76,"endTime":3533.73,"body":"to being pluralistic and respecting people"},{"startTime":3533.73,"endTime":3536.16,"body":"and respecting them as moral agents."},{"startTime":3536.16,"endTime":3537.09,"body":"And so fundamentally,"},{"startTime":3537.09,"endTime":3538.98,"body":"the only way through"},{"startTime":3537.09,"endTime":3538.98,"body":"this as far as I can see,"},{"startTime":3538.98,"endTime":3540.27,"body":"is respect for autonomy."},{"startTime":3540.27,"endTime":3543.36,"body":"That is our fundamental"},{"startTime":3540.27,"endTime":3543.36,"body":"principle that guides our law."},{"startTime":3543.36,"endTime":3546.45,"body":"And we should in some sense,"},{"startTime":3546.45,"endTime":3547.5,"body":"give people back the choice"},{"startTime":3547.5,"endTime":3550.173,"body":"to make their own decisions"},{"startTime":3547.5,"endTime":3550.173,"body":"about how they die."},{"startTime":3551.34,"endTime":3554.255,"body":"It will be the case that"},{"startTime":3551.34,"endTime":3554.255,"body":"there will be some failures,"},{"startTime":3554.255,"endTime":3558.12,"body":"but that doesn't mean we can't"},{"startTime":3554.255,"endTime":3558.12,"body":"at least try to make a system"},{"startTime":3558.12,"endTime":3560.4,"body":"that does its best to do this"},{"startTime":3560.4,"endTime":3563.16,"body":"and to respect people's"},{"startTime":3560.4,"endTime":3563.16,"body":"choices in that way."},{"startTime":3563.16,"endTime":3565.62,"body":"So, I think that only"},{"startTime":3563.16,"endTime":3565.62,"body":"through liberalization,"},{"startTime":3565.62,"endTime":3567.93,"body":"can we allow people to live a"},{"startTime":3565.62,"endTime":3567.93,"body":"life according to their values"},{"startTime":3567.93,"endTime":3570.33,"body":"by choosing to die or not to die."},{"startTime":3570.33,"endTime":3572.79,"body":"A prohibition enables only one group"},{"startTime":3572.79,"endTime":3574.02,"body":"to live by their values,"},{"startTime":3574.02,"endTime":3575.28,"body":"the others can't."},{"startTime":3575.28,"endTime":3576.39,"body":"And in a secular society"},{"startTime":3576.39,"endTime":3577.68,"body":"where we allow for differences in values"},{"startTime":3577.68,"endTime":3578.79,"body":"and differences in viewpoints,"},{"startTime":3578.79,"endTime":3580.14,"body":"the only way we can achieve respect"},{"startTime":3580.14,"endTime":3583.2,"body":"for all these differences"},{"startTime":3580.14,"endTime":3583.2,"body":"is to be permissive."},{"startTime":3583.2,"endTime":3584.94,"body":"We have to allow people their freedoms,"},{"startTime":3584.94,"endTime":3586.56,"body":"even though it comes at a cost"},{"startTime":3586.56,"endTime":3589.08,"body":"and we need to avoid that"},{"startTime":3586.56,"endTime":3589.08,"body":"cost as far as we can."},{"startTime":3589.08,"endTime":3590.67,"body":"But I think the alternative"},{"startTime":3589.08,"endTime":3590.67,"body":"of telling people"},{"startTime":3590.67,"endTime":3592.38,"body":"that they can't make their own choice,"},{"startTime":3592.38,"endTime":3594.03,"body":"about the most serious"},{"startTime":3592.38,"endTime":3594.03,"body":"event in their lives"},{"startTime":3594.03,"endTime":3595.77,"body":"has to be considered far worse."},{"startTime":3595.77,"endTime":3597.114,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3597.114,"endTime":3600.281,"body":"(audience applauding)"}]}