{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.093,"endTime":3.51,"body":"- It's 75 years since"},{"startTime":0.093,"endTime":3.51,"body":"the British left India"},{"startTime":3.51,"endTime":8.25,"body":"and partitioned it into the"},{"startTime":3.51,"endTime":8.25,"body":"dominions of India and Pakistan,"},{"startTime":8.25,"endTime":11.823,"body":"partition and independence"},{"startTime":8.25,"endTime":11.823,"body":"forever twinned."},{"startTime":13.08,"endTime":15.9,"body":"It may appear an event"},{"startTime":13.08,"endTime":15.9,"body":"that happened far away,"},{"startTime":15.9,"endTime":18.51,"body":"and is consigned to history,"},{"startTime":18.51,"endTime":19.59,"body":"but the ramifications"},{"startTime":19.59,"endTime":24.03,"body":"of the decision to divide"},{"startTime":19.59,"endTime":24.03,"body":"British India and its people,"},{"startTime":24.03,"endTime":25.35,"body":"and the subsequent migration,"},{"startTime":25.35,"endTime":29.82,"body":"which became the largest"},{"startTime":25.35,"endTime":29.82,"body":"migration outside war and famine"},{"startTime":29.82,"endTime":31.98,"body":"that the world has ever seen,"},{"startTime":31.98,"endTime":33.0,"body":"can still be felt"},{"startTime":33.0,"endTime":36.33,"body":"in the politics of the"},{"startTime":33.0,"endTime":36.33,"body":"Indian Subcontinent today,"},{"startTime":36.33,"endTime":37.35,"body":"and it endures"},{"startTime":37.35,"endTime":40.83,"body":"in the lives of people who"},{"startTime":37.35,"endTime":40.83,"body":"lived through that time,"},{"startTime":40.83,"endTime":42.9,"body":"many of whom came to Britain,"},{"startTime":42.9,"endTime":44.613,"body":"its former colonial ruler."},{"startTime":45.84,"endTime":48.66,"body":"But we are now in the twilight years,"},{"startTime":48.66,"endTime":52.56,"body":"where the generation who were"},{"startTime":48.66,"endTime":52.56,"body":"born under the British Raj"},{"startTime":52.56,"endTime":55.2,"body":"and were witnesses to the end of empire"},{"startTime":55.2,"endTime":56.31,"body":"are dwindling,"},{"startTime":56.31,"endTime":58.89,"body":"and will soon no longer be with us,"},{"startTime":58.89,"endTime":62.403,"body":"and are only just"},{"startTime":58.89,"endTime":62.403,"body":"speaking about that time."},{"startTime":63.96,"endTime":68.76,"body":"But there is still time left"},{"startTime":63.96,"endTime":68.76,"body":"to record their experiences,"},{"startTime":68.76,"endTime":69.99,"body":"and ask"},{"startTime":69.99,"endTime":73.86,"body":"what inheritance is bequeathed"},{"startTime":69.99,"endTime":73.86,"body":"to subsequent generations,"},{"startTime":73.86,"endTime":75.39,"body":"both within families,"},{"startTime":75.39,"endTime":77.82,"body":"British South Asian families,"},{"startTime":77.82,"endTime":82.82,"body":"and how we as a nation reckon"},{"startTime":77.82,"endTime":82.82,"body":"with our colonial past."},{"startTime":85.29,"endTime":89.22,"body":"And these are some of the"},{"startTime":85.29,"endTime":89.22,"body":"people that I interviewed"},{"startTime":89.22,"endTime":91.74,"body":"for the \"Partition Voices\" series,"},{"startTime":91.74,"endTime":96.36,"body":"and this lecture will focus"},{"startTime":91.74,"endTime":96.36,"body":"on that lived experience,"},{"startTime":96.36,"endTime":97.32,"body":"which, as I said,"},{"startTime":97.32,"endTime":98.73,"body":"is still little known about,"},{"startTime":98.73,"endTime":102.51,"body":"and is only just entering"},{"startTime":98.73,"endTime":102.51,"body":"the public domain"},{"startTime":102.51,"endTime":104.52,"body":"so many years on,"},{"startTime":104.52,"endTime":107.79,"body":"the devastating human"},{"startTime":104.52,"endTime":107.79,"body":"consequences and cost"},{"startTime":107.79,"endTime":110.07,"body":"of the end of the British Raj."},{"startTime":110.07,"endTime":112.29,"body":"We will hear some of"},{"startTime":110.07,"endTime":112.29,"body":"their stories tonight,"},{"startTime":112.29,"endTime":113.88,"body":"these firsthand accounts"},{"startTime":113.88,"endTime":115.77,"body":"of people who now live in Britain,"},{"startTime":115.77,"endTime":117.63,"body":"and were caught up in that time,"},{"startTime":117.63,"endTime":120.78,"body":"but we will also look"},{"startTime":117.63,"endTime":120.78,"body":"at what is passed on,"},{"startTime":120.78,"endTime":124.26,"body":"and its wider legacy here in Britain."},{"startTime":124.26,"endTime":128.883,"body":"I argue that partition is British history."},{"startTime":129.84,"endTime":132.81,"body":"The legacy of it and the end of empire"},{"startTime":132.81,"endTime":136.68,"body":"exists among us here in"},{"startTime":132.81,"endTime":136.68,"body":"contemporary Britain,"},{"startTime":136.68,"endTime":138.75,"body":"maybe in people that you know,"},{"startTime":138.75,"endTime":141.51,"body":"and maybe never even knew to ask."},{"startTime":141.51,"endTime":145.443,"body":"I want to bring their voices"},{"startTime":141.51,"endTime":145.443,"body":"into the room here tonight,"},{"startTime":146.489,"endTime":150.017,"body":"and these are some of the"},{"startTime":146.489,"endTime":150.017,"body":"people that I spoke to."},{"startTime":151.335,"endTime":154.752,"body":"(reflective piano music)"},{"startTime":170.9,"endTime":173.712,"body":"- My name is Gurbakhsh Singh Garca."},{"startTime":173.712,"endTime":174.882,"body":"- Khursid Sultana."},{"startTime":174.882,"endTime":176.49,"body":"- My name is Raj Daswani."},{"startTime":176.49,"endTime":178.68,"body":"- During the partition,"},{"startTime":176.49,"endTime":178.68,"body":"we came to East Bengal."},{"startTime":178.68,"endTime":181.77,"body":"- The first town we reached was Fazilka."},{"startTime":181.77,"endTime":184.77,"body":"- We were forced to leave Pakistan."},{"startTime":184.77,"endTime":186.09,"body":"- They were horrible days,"},{"startTime":186.09,"endTime":189.603,"body":"horrible for the reputation"},{"startTime":186.09,"endTime":189.603,"body":"of both India and Pakistan."},{"startTime":194.67,"endTime":197.04,"body":"- Partition was a huge mistake."},{"startTime":197.04,"endTime":200.1,"body":"It was too quick, it was speeded through."},{"startTime":200.1,"endTime":202.167,"body":"- That parting of each other"},{"startTime":203.82,"endTime":207.87,"body":"was most, I would say, unbearable."},{"startTime":207.87,"endTime":209.46,"body":"- I was terrified,"},{"startTime":209.46,"endTime":210.72,"body":"I couldn't think of any,"},{"startTime":210.72,"endTime":212.22,"body":"that's what I'm telling you,"},{"startTime":212.22,"endTime":213.63,"body":"I was so frightened."},{"startTime":213.63,"endTime":215.31,"body":"- Although we got independence,"},{"startTime":215.31,"endTime":219.262,"body":"what good it was when"},{"startTime":215.31,"endTime":219.262,"body":"you have lost everything?"},{"startTime":219.262,"endTime":222.679,"body":"(reflective piano music)"},{"startTime":224.46,"endTime":229.2,"body":"- But before we get to"},{"startTime":224.46,"endTime":229.2,"body":"hear some of those stories,"},{"startTime":229.2,"endTime":234.2,"body":"I just want to look at when"},{"startTime":229.2,"endTime":234.2,"body":"partition became inevitable,"},{"startTime":234.21,"endTime":236.34,"body":"because it wasn't always so."},{"startTime":236.34,"endTime":239.247,"body":"Britain had direct rule"},{"startTime":236.34,"endTime":239.247,"body":"over India since 1858,"},{"startTime":239.247,"endTime":241.29,"body":"and as you can see from this map,"},{"startTime":241.29,"endTime":243.3,"body":"that includes modern day Pakistan,"},{"startTime":243.3,"endTime":247.26,"body":"modern day Bangladesh,"},{"startTime":243.3,"endTime":247.26,"body":"Myanmar, and Sri Lanka,"},{"startTime":247.26,"endTime":249.69,"body":"as well as, of course, India."},{"startTime":249.69,"endTime":251.31,"body":"And it is worth noting"},{"startTime":251.31,"endTime":252.93,"body":"that it also had a presence there"},{"startTime":252.93,"endTime":256.5,"body":"with the arrival of the East"},{"startTime":252.93,"endTime":256.5,"body":"India Company in the 1600s."},{"startTime":256.5,"endTime":258.81,"body":"But resentment against"},{"startTime":256.5,"endTime":258.81,"body":"British rule festered,"},{"startTime":258.81,"endTime":260.58,"body":"and the by the 20th century,"},{"startTime":260.58,"endTime":262.95,"body":"the independence movement gained momentum,"},{"startTime":262.95,"endTime":266.853,"body":"hastened by Britain taking"},{"startTime":262.95,"endTime":266.853,"body":"India into World War II."},{"startTime":267.72,"endTime":271.26,"body":"And this is King George"},{"startTime":267.72,"endTime":271.26,"body":"VI, Emperor of India,"},{"startTime":271.26,"endTime":275.94,"body":"inspecting troops in the Midlands in 1940,"},{"startTime":275.94,"endTime":278.31,"body":"these are troops from British India."},{"startTime":278.31,"endTime":280.14,"body":"And World War II was a war"},{"startTime":280.14,"endTime":283.68,"body":"that Britain didn't ask"},{"startTime":280.14,"endTime":283.68,"body":"if India wanted to join,"},{"startTime":283.68,"endTime":285.66,"body":"it never gave its consent,"},{"startTime":285.66,"endTime":289.05,"body":"it was something that leaders"},{"startTime":285.66,"endTime":289.05,"body":"of Congress objected to,"},{"startTime":289.05,"endTime":290.07,"body":"in fact they were imprisoned"},{"startTime":290.07,"endTime":293.07,"body":"for the duration of the"},{"startTime":290.07,"endTime":293.07,"body":"war because of it, largely,"},{"startTime":293.07,"endTime":297.24,"body":"and an estimated 2.5 million Indians"},{"startTime":297.24,"endTime":300.303,"body":"served in the army during the war."},{"startTime":301.68,"endTime":306.03,"body":"And as religious identity became stronger,"},{"startTime":306.03,"endTime":309.9,"body":"many argue stoked by British"},{"startTime":306.03,"endTime":309.9,"body":"policies of divide and rule,"},{"startTime":309.9,"endTime":314.9,"body":"as these visions of independence"},{"startTime":309.9,"endTime":314.9,"body":"became much stronger,"},{"startTime":315.09,"endTime":318.48,"body":"precipitated largely also by World War II,"},{"startTime":318.48,"endTime":319.8,"body":"there were two competing visions"},{"startTime":319.8,"endTime":321.9,"body":"of what independence would look like,"},{"startTime":321.9,"endTime":326.223,"body":"and it grew increasingly"},{"startTime":321.9,"endTime":326.223,"body":"politicized along religious lines."},{"startTime":327.27,"endTime":329.61,"body":"As the departure of"},{"startTime":327.27,"endTime":329.61,"body":"Britain became imminent"},{"startTime":329.61,"endTime":331.26,"body":"after World War II,"},{"startTime":331.26,"endTime":332.76,"body":"the pressing concern"},{"startTime":332.76,"endTime":335.07,"body":"would be how the Muslim minority,"},{"startTime":335.07,"endTime":337.44,"body":"which was 1/4 of British"},{"startTime":335.07,"endTime":337.44,"body":"India's population,"},{"startTime":337.44,"endTime":339.75,"body":"around 100 million,"},{"startTime":339.75,"endTime":343.92,"body":"would be protected in a country"},{"startTime":343.92,"endTime":345.63,"body":"once the British left."},{"startTime":345.63,"endTime":349.44,"body":"They didn't feel that their"},{"startTime":345.63,"endTime":349.44,"body":"rights would be safeguarded"},{"startTime":349.44,"endTime":351.723,"body":"by the Hindu majority."},{"startTime":352.62,"endTime":354.45,"body":"And the fight for Muslim rights"},{"startTime":354.45,"endTime":357.6,"body":"was led by Muhammad Ali"},{"startTime":354.45,"endTime":357.6,"body":"Jinnah, of the Muslim League."},{"startTime":357.6,"endTime":360.6,"body":"He wanted protection,"},{"startTime":360.6,"endTime":365.6,"body":"and he would eventually"},{"startTime":360.6,"endTime":365.6,"body":"demand a separate country."},{"startTime":366.51,"endTime":368.46,"body":"And the Congress, led by Jawaharlal Nehru,"},{"startTime":368.46,"endTime":369.93,"body":"had a very different view,"},{"startTime":369.93,"endTime":372.9,"body":"they wanted India to be united,"},{"startTime":372.9,"endTime":374.553,"body":"but a secular India."},{"startTime":375.48,"endTime":377.91,"body":"But the endgame of empire,"},{"startTime":377.91,"endTime":380.97,"body":"and the contest for power and territory"},{"startTime":380.97,"endTime":384.87,"body":"was conducted against a backdrop"},{"startTime":380.97,"endTime":384.87,"body":"of rising communal violence"},{"startTime":384.87,"endTime":386.25,"body":"across Northern India,"},{"startTime":386.25,"endTime":389.88,"body":"as people of the other"},{"startTime":386.25,"endTime":389.88,"body":"religion were targeted."},{"startTime":389.88,"endTime":393.953,"body":"And this is a picture from"},{"startTime":389.88,"endTime":393.953,"body":"the 16th of August, 1946,"},{"startTime":395.4,"endTime":397.05,"body":"it's Calcutta,"},{"startTime":397.05,"endTime":399.27,"body":"and it's what many historians argue"},{"startTime":399.27,"endTime":402.243,"body":"was the first partition massacre."},{"startTime":403.41,"endTime":406.86,"body":"There had been localized"},{"startTime":403.41,"endTime":406.86,"body":"communal violence before,"},{"startTime":406.86,"endTime":409.35,"body":"but the partition massacres,"},{"startTime":409.35,"endTime":414.06,"body":"that many historians"},{"startTime":409.35,"endTime":414.06,"body":"agree began with this day,"},{"startTime":414.06,"endTime":418.95,"body":"was really aimed at"},{"startTime":414.06,"endTime":418.95,"body":"destroying, or eliminating"},{"startTime":418.95,"endTime":421.65,"body":"people of the other religion."},{"startTime":421.65,"endTime":425.7,"body":"And this day had been called"},{"startTime":421.65,"endTime":425.7,"body":"by Muhammad Ali Jinnah"},{"startTime":425.7,"endTime":426.96,"body":"as Direction Action Day,"},{"startTime":426.96,"endTime":428.61,"body":"in favor of Pakistan,"},{"startTime":428.61,"endTime":431.85,"body":"but it quickly descended into bloodshed."},{"startTime":431.85,"endTime":435.66,"body":"On all sides, Muslims and Hindus,"},{"startTime":435.66,"endTime":439.05,"body":"many thousands were brutally killed,"},{"startTime":439.05,"endTime":442.65,"body":"and the violence then spread"},{"startTime":439.05,"endTime":442.65,"body":"to Noakhali, to Tippera,"},{"startTime":442.65,"endTime":445.08,"body":"to Bihar, on the outskirts of Delhi,"},{"startTime":445.08,"endTime":447.96,"body":"until, by early 1947,"},{"startTime":447.96,"endTime":451.23,"body":"many of the huge cities in Punjab"},{"startTime":451.23,"endTime":453.843,"body":"had descended into violence."},{"startTime":458.43,"endTime":463.43,"body":"And this growing violence"},{"startTime":458.43,"endTime":463.43,"body":"across Northern India"},{"startTime":463.5,"endTime":468.21,"body":"was the context for British negotiations"},{"startTime":468.21,"endTime":471.24,"body":"of what India would look"},{"startTime":468.21,"endTime":471.24,"body":"like once the British left."},{"startTime":471.24,"endTime":474.12,"body":"And Lord Louis Mountbatten,"},{"startTime":471.24,"endTime":474.12,"body":"there in the center,"},{"startTime":474.12,"endTime":476.58,"body":"was the last viceroy of India,"},{"startTime":476.58,"endTime":480.33,"body":"he'd been given the task to"},{"startTime":476.58,"endTime":480.33,"body":"oversee the transfer of power,"},{"startTime":480.33,"endTime":482.85,"body":"that's Nehru over there, and Jinnah here."},{"startTime":482.85,"endTime":487.613,"body":"And this photograph is taken"},{"startTime":482.85,"endTime":487.613,"body":"from the 3rd of June, 1947,"},{"startTime":489.45,"endTime":493.14,"body":"and it was a momentous day"},{"startTime":493.14,"endTime":498.14,"body":"because this was the three"},{"startTime":493.14,"endTime":498.14,"body":"men preparing for an address"},{"startTime":499.44,"endTime":501.54,"body":"on All India Radio,"},{"startTime":501.54,"endTime":502.77,"body":"it's seven o'clock at night,"},{"startTime":502.77,"endTime":505.47,"body":"to not only British India,"},{"startTime":505.47,"endTime":509.19,"body":"but the empire, and to Britain,"},{"startTime":509.19,"endTime":514.19,"body":"and it was an announcement that"},{"startTime":509.19,"endTime":514.19,"body":"India would be partitioned."},{"startTime":514.74,"endTime":517.26,"body":"Nehru had reluctantly agreed,"},{"startTime":517.26,"endTime":519.72,"body":"and the reason that Lord Mountbatten gave"},{"startTime":519.72,"endTime":522.0,"body":"was that there can be no question"},{"startTime":522.0,"endTime":524.73,"body":"of coercing any large areas"},{"startTime":524.73,"endTime":527.31,"body":"in which one community has a majority"},{"startTime":527.31,"endTime":528.6,"body":"to live against their will"},{"startTime":528.6,"endTime":529.89,"body":"under a government"},{"startTime":529.89,"endTime":532.83,"body":"in which another community has a majority,"},{"startTime":532.83,"endTime":537.27,"body":"and the only alternative"},{"startTime":532.83,"endTime":537.27,"body":"to coercion is partition."},{"startTime":537.27,"endTime":541.23,"body":"He announced that the"},{"startTime":537.27,"endTime":541.23,"body":"populous regions of Punjab,"},{"startTime":541.23,"endTime":542.063,"body":"in the west,"},{"startTime":542.063,"endTime":543.39,"body":"and Bengal, in the east,"},{"startTime":543.39,"endTime":544.92,"body":"would be divided,"},{"startTime":544.92,"endTime":546.9,"body":"and these were places where,"},{"startTime":546.9,"endTime":549.54,"body":"for many, many generations,"},{"startTime":549.54,"endTime":553.23,"body":"Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus"},{"startTime":549.54,"endTime":553.23,"body":"had lived side by side,"},{"startTime":553.23,"endTime":555.48,"body":"largely happily,"},{"startTime":555.48,"endTime":557.43,"body":"for many, many years,"},{"startTime":557.43,"endTime":559.2,"body":"and their unpicking"},{"startTime":559.2,"endTime":563.4,"body":"would be a virtually impossible task."},{"startTime":563.4,"endTime":564.75,"body":"And at this address,"},{"startTime":564.75,"endTime":567.96,"body":"he made an announcement"},{"startTime":564.75,"endTime":567.96,"body":"which shocked many people,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":570.21,"endTime":573.96,"body":"he said that partition"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":570.21,"endTime":573.96,"body":"would not take place"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":573.96,"endTime":575.91,"body":"by June, 1948,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":575.91,"endTime":576.87,"body":"which was the date"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":576.87,"endTime":579.48,"body":"that Prime Minister"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":576.87,"endTime":579.48,"body":"Clement Attlee had given,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":579.48,"endTime":581.19,"body":"he said that partition would take place"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":581.19,"endTime":586.11,"body":"on the 15th of August, 1947."},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":586.11,"endTime":588.81,"body":"That would leave 10 weeks"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":588.81,"endTime":592.743,"body":"in which to divide a"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":588.81,"endTime":592.743,"body":"nation as complex as India."},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":594.63,"endTime":598.41,"body":"And the man who was"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":594.63,"endTime":598.41,"body":"tasked with that division"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":598.41,"endTime":601.41,"body":"was Cyril Radcliffe,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":601.41,"endTime":606.0,"body":"and he was a lawyer who"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":601.41,"endTime":606.0,"body":"had come from Britain,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":606.0,"endTime":608.58,"body":"he had never actually"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":606.0,"endTime":608.58,"body":"been to India before,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":608.58,"endTime":612.21,"body":"he spent a lot of time in the"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":608.58,"endTime":612.21,"body":"viceroy's house, in Delhi,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":612.21,"endTime":614.88,"body":"surrounded by a census,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":614.88,"endTime":616.26,"body":"which happened to be out of date,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":616.26,"endTime":618.93,"body":"maps, submission requests."},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":618.93,"endTime":623.373,"body":"He never once visited the"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":618.93,"endTime":623.373,"body":"villages that he was dissecting."},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":624.54,"endTime":629.43,"body":"And so the day approached,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":624.54,"endTime":629.43,"body":"Independence Day,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":629.43,"endTime":632.07,"body":"the 14th of August, 1947,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":632.07,"endTime":633.54,"body":"and this is Karachi,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":633.54,"endTime":635.25,"body":"they celebrated independence a day early,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":635.25,"endTime":637.26,"body":"and Mountbatten went there,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":637.26,"endTime":639.393,"body":"and it was a day of great joy."},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":640.71,"endTime":642.69,"body":"Jinnah spoke in very lofty terms"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":642.69,"endTime":646.41,"body":"to the people of his country,"},{"speaker":"including some of those in the room","startTime":646.41,"endTime":648.03,"body":"to all religions,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":649.057,"endTime":651.457,"body":"\"You are free to go to your temples,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":651.457,"endTime":653.527,"body":"\"you are free to go to your mosques,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":653.527,"endTime":658.5,"body":"\"or to any other place of worship"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":653.527,"endTime":658.5,"body":"in the state of Pakistan.\""},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":658.5,"endTime":660.63,"body":"It was a pluralistic vision"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":660.63,"endTime":663.303,"body":"of what the new state"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":660.63,"endTime":663.303,"body":"of Pakistan would be."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":664.41,"endTime":667.953,"body":"At midnight, at the Red Fort in New Delhi,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":671.01,"endTime":674.4,"body":"Nehru gave his famous address."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":674.4,"endTime":676.657,"body":"He said, \"Long years ago,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":676.657,"endTime":679.177,"body":"\"we made a tryst with destiny,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":679.177,"endTime":681.247,"body":"\"and now, when the time comes"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":681.247,"endTime":683.137,"body":"\"when we shall redeem our pledge,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":683.137,"endTime":685.177,"body":"\"not wholly or in full measure,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":685.177,"endTime":687.157,"body":"\"but very substantially."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":687.157,"endTime":689.047,"body":"\"At the stroke of the midnight hour,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":689.047,"endTime":690.667,"body":"\"when the world sleeps,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":690.667,"endTime":694.56,"body":"\"India will awake to life and freedom.\""},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":694.56,"endTime":696.96,"body":"And yet, astonishingly,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":696.96,"endTime":698.67,"body":"on the 15th of August,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":698.67,"endTime":700.98,"body":"when the transfer had been made,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":700.98,"endTime":705.09,"body":"nobody had a clue where the"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":700.98,"endTime":705.09,"body":"boundary line actually was,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":705.09,"endTime":708.18,"body":"that was announced two days later,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":708.18,"endTime":711.9,"body":"on the 17th of August, 1947."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":711.9,"endTime":713.91,"body":"By that time, Radcliffe had already left,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":713.91,"endTime":715.92,"body":"apparently, he'd burned his papers,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":715.92,"endTime":717.63,"body":"and he took off to England,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":717.63,"endTime":720.45,"body":"never once deciding that he"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":717.63,"endTime":720.45,"body":"would come back to India."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":720.45,"endTime":721.747,"body":"He wrote to his stepson to say,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":721.747,"endTime":723.127,"body":"\"Nobody in India will love me"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":723.127,"endTime":725.947,"body":"\"for the award about"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":723.127,"endTime":725.947,"body":"the Punjab and Bengal,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":725.947,"endTime":729.127,"body":"\"there'll be roughly 80"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":725.947,"endTime":729.127,"body":"million people with a grievance"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":729.127,"endTime":730.837,"body":"\"who'll be looking for me."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":730.837,"endTime":732.657,"body":"\"I don't want them to find me.\""},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":733.92,"endTime":736.38,"body":"People listened on the radio,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":736.38,"endTime":738.72,"body":"they waited for newspapers"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":738.72,"endTime":743.22,"body":"to tell them where their village,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":738.72,"endTime":743.22,"body":"where there city would be,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":743.22,"endTime":745.56,"body":"which side of the border."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":745.56,"endTime":747.06,"body":"And this is the map"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":747.06,"endTime":752.06,"body":"of what the division of Bengal"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":747.06,"endTime":752.06,"body":"and partition looked like."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":754.59,"endTime":757.92,"body":"You see, on the left, West Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":757.92,"endTime":762.63,"body":"which comprised West Punjab,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":757.92,"endTime":762.63,"body":"Sindh Province, Balochistan,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":762.63,"endTime":763.86,"body":"and the North-West Frontier,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":763.86,"endTime":766.56,"body":"and here, you see East Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":766.56,"endTime":768.42,"body":"they were divided by 1,000 miles."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":768.42,"endTime":772.98,"body":"If you took a boat from Karachi"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":768.42,"endTime":772.98,"body":"all the way to Chittagong,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":772.98,"endTime":775.11,"body":"that would take you five days."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":775.11,"endTime":780.11,"body":"Jinnah described his new nation"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":775.11,"endTime":780.11,"body":"as moth-eaten and truncated."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":781.56,"endTime":783.09,"body":"And there you see,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":783.09,"endTime":784.44,"body":"Kashmir was one example,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":784.44,"endTime":786.12,"body":"but places like Hyderabad,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":786.12,"endTime":788.37,"body":"all the other princely states,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":788.37,"endTime":790.47,"body":"they would decide for themselves"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":790.47,"endTime":792.843,"body":"which nation they would belong to."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":794.58,"endTime":796.53,"body":"But what happened next,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":796.53,"endTime":798.33,"body":"nobody had anticipated,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":798.33,"endTime":799.8,"body":"not the colonial authorities"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":799.8,"endTime":803.433,"body":"nor these new governments"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":799.8,"endTime":803.433,"body":"in India and Pakistan."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":804.33,"endTime":807.72,"body":"As people found themselves a minority"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":807.72,"endTime":811.05,"body":"in these two new countries,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":811.05,"endTime":812.1,"body":"they made a choice,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":812.1,"endTime":813.6,"body":"or they had to make a choice,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":813.6,"endTime":816.78,"body":"whether to stay or to leave."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":816.78,"endTime":820.23,"body":"And that wasn't a straightforward choice,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":820.23,"endTime":821.063,"body":"how could it be?"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":821.063,"endTime":822.9,"body":"If you'd been born in a place,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":822.9,"endTime":825.33,"body":"generations of your"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":822.9,"endTime":825.33,"body":"family had lived there,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":825.33,"endTime":827.7,"body":"you felt that that was your home,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":827.7,"endTime":830.22,"body":"your tie to your land"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":830.22,"endTime":833.28,"body":"could be stronger than"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":830.22,"endTime":833.28,"body":"your tie to your religion,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":833.28,"endTime":835.98,"body":"and many people tried to stay,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":835.98,"endTime":839.16,"body":"but for some, it became too dangerous,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":839.16,"endTime":840.15,"body":"and they had to leave."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":840.15,"endTime":841.89,"body":"And so people,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":841.89,"endTime":843.21,"body":"as you see in this picture,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":843.21,"endTime":844.77,"body":"in this iconic picture,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":844.77,"endTime":849.42,"body":"as are the others of the"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":844.77,"endTime":849.42,"body":"American \"TIME\" photographer"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":849.42,"endTime":851.16,"body":"Margaret Bourke-White,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":851.16,"endTime":853.08,"body":"people just took whatever they could."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":853.08,"endTime":857.28,"body":"You can see this family had"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":853.08,"endTime":857.28,"body":"very little time to leave,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":857.28,"endTime":859.503,"body":"they walked by foot,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":861.81,"endTime":862.86,"body":"if they had time,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":862.86,"endTime":864.63,"body":"they would take their animals,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":864.63,"endTime":867.573,"body":"and they would walk in"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":864.63,"endTime":867.573,"body":"these long lines for safety."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":868.41,"endTime":872.79,"body":"And this became, as I said earlier,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":872.79,"endTime":875.73,"body":"the largest migration"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":872.79,"endTime":875.73,"body":"outside war and famine"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":875.73,"endTime":877.59,"body":"that the world had seen."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":877.59,"endTime":880.05,"body":"Around 10 to 12 million people,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":880.05,"endTime":883.32,"body":"around the month of partition,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":883.32,"endTime":885.6,"body":"so around August to November,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":885.6,"endTime":886.77,"body":"were on the move,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":886.77,"endTime":891.21,"body":"Hindus and Sikhs in one"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":886.77,"endTime":891.21,"body":"direction, to India,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":891.21,"endTime":893.64,"body":"Muslims to Pakistan."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":893.64,"endTime":897.33,"body":"It's estimated 1 million"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":893.64,"endTime":897.33,"body":"people, on all sides,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":897.33,"endTime":898.203,"body":"were killed."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":899.04,"endTime":904.04,"body":"Officials say 75,000 women"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":899.04,"endTime":904.04,"body":"were raped, abducted,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":904.65,"endTime":907.473,"body":"and forced to convert"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":904.65,"endTime":907.473,"body":"to the other religion."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":908.43,"endTime":912.153,"body":"The female body became"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":908.43,"endTime":912.153,"body":"part of the battleground."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":913.681,"endTime":915.84,"body":"Other women were killed by their families"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":915.84,"endTime":918.303,"body":"to save them from so-called dishonor."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":919.17,"endTime":921.0,"body":"What remained of the British Army,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":921.0,"endTime":923.01,"body":"they had orders not to intervene,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":923.01,"endTime":926.013,"body":"only to save the lives of Britishers."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":928.47,"endTime":931.47,"body":"The violence and the migration"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":931.47,"endTime":934.59,"body":"predominantly started in the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":934.59,"endTime":937.59,"body":"and then it moved to places like Delhi,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":937.59,"endTime":940.623,"body":"and this is one of the"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":937.59,"endTime":940.623,"body":"refugee camps there,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":941.46,"endTime":943.77,"body":"and as we'll hear later,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":943.77,"endTime":948.77,"body":"the trains became a place"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":943.77,"endTime":948.77,"body":"to escape across the border,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":951.18,"endTime":955.29,"body":"but also, they were"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":951.18,"endTime":955.29,"body":"incredibly dangerous journeys"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":955.29,"endTime":956.643,"body":"that people had to take."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":958.44,"endTime":960.69,"body":"1947 was not the end of violence."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":960.69,"endTime":962.22,"body":"As I said,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":962.22,"endTime":966.66,"body":"the epicenter at that"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":962.22,"endTime":966.66,"body":"time was Punjab, Bengal,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":966.66,"endTime":968.58,"body":"as we heard before, in 1946,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":968.58,"endTime":970.38,"body":"had seen a lot of bloodshed,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":970.38,"endTime":972.78,"body":"but it then began to move around,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":972.78,"endTime":974.64,"body":"particularly Northern India,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":974.64,"endTime":977.34,"body":"places like Delhi, the Sindh Province,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":977.34,"endTime":979.923,"body":"as refugees streamed in."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":981.36,"endTime":985.98,"body":"But mass displacement and"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":981.36,"endTime":985.98,"body":"violence triggered by partition"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":985.98,"endTime":989.34,"body":"continued until 1971,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":989.34,"endTime":992.88,"body":"when East Bengal, East Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":992.88,"endTime":995.43,"body":"against huge resistance"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":992.88,"endTime":995.43,"body":"from West Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":995.43,"endTime":999.003,"body":"fought for its independence"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":995.43,"endTime":999.003,"body":"and became Bangladesh."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1000.95,"endTime":1005.093,"body":"The statistics of"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1000.95,"endTime":1005.093,"body":"partition are overwhelming,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1005.93,"endTime":1010.58,"body":"but behind every statistic"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1005.93,"endTime":1010.58,"body":"is a human story,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1010.58,"endTime":1014.12,"body":"even if you can't find them"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1010.58,"endTime":1014.12,"body":"in the official documents,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1014.12,"endTime":1015.77,"body":"and that's what I wanted to do"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1015.77,"endTime":1017.84,"body":"as the 70th anniversary approached."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1017.84,"endTime":1020.09,"body":"I was aware that partition,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1020.09,"endTime":1021.41,"body":"as a historical event,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1021.41,"endTime":1024.05,"body":"was not well known about in families"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1024.05,"endTime":1025.7,"body":"even with South Asian heritage,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1028.91,"body":"and certainly not in"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1028.91,"body":"wider British society,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1028.91,"endTime":1031.97,"body":"despite it being one"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1028.91,"endTime":1031.97,"body":"of the defining events"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1031.97,"endTime":1033.65,"body":"of the 20th century,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1033.65,"endTime":1036.023,"body":"and a part of British history."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1037.46,"endTime":1039.26,"body":"But it's also a history"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1039.26,"endTime":1043.31,"body":"that so many millions of"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1039.26,"endTime":1043.31,"body":"British South Asian families"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1043.31,"endTime":1046.79,"body":"have a direct or indirect connection to,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1046.79,"endTime":1048.89,"body":"including our new prime minister,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1048.89,"endTime":1052.64,"body":"whose paternal family are from the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1052.64,"endTime":1054.95,"body":"their family actually came from a place"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1054.95,"endTime":1056.753,"body":"that is now Pakistan."},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1057.65,"endTime":1060.14,"body":"And there is a direct connection"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1060.14,"endTime":1064.28,"body":"between partition and South"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1060.14,"endTime":1064.28,"body":"Asian migration to Britain,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1064.28,"endTime":1066.08,"body":"because in the post-war years,"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1066.08,"endTime":1068.06,"body":"many of the people who arrived in Britain"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1068.06,"endTime":1072.56,"body":"came from areas hugely"},{"speaker":"he said to them","startTime":1068.06,"endTime":1072.56,"body":"disrupted by partition."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1073.4,"endTime":1075.56,"body":"if your life has already been disrupted,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1075.56,"endTime":1078.08,"body":"you've already had to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1075.56,"endTime":1078.08,"body":"move across a border,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1078.08,"endTime":1079.52,"body":"you go to a new land,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1079.52,"endTime":1081.32,"body":"you may not even speak the language,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1081.32,"endTime":1083.21,"body":"that doesn't feel like home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1083.21,"endTime":1086.3,"body":"why wouldn't you come to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1083.21,"endTime":1086.3,"body":"Britain to try your luck,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1086.3,"endTime":1088.4,"body":"to try and start a new life"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1088.4,"endTime":1092.27,"body":"after the British Nationality"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1088.4,"endTime":1092.27,"body":"Act came into force in 1948"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1092.27,"endTime":1094.43,"body":"and gave you British citizenship?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1094.43,"endTime":1096.47,"body":"So people came primarily,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1096.47,"endTime":1098.12,"body":"in those early post-war years,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1098.12,"endTime":1100.16,"body":"from places like the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1100.16,"endTime":1103.58,"body":"but also Sylhet and Mirpur too,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1103.58,"endTime":1105.92,"body":"and they came with their stories,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1105.92,"endTime":1108.203,"body":"but they didn't talk about them."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1109.73,"endTime":1113.63,"body":"And silence shrouded so"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1109.73,"endTime":1113.63,"body":"many of those memories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1113.63,"endTime":1114.92,"body":"of people who came to Britain,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1114.92,"endTime":1116.81,"body":"and that isn't exceptional"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1114.92,"endTime":1116.81,"body":"to Britain either,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1116.81,"endTime":1119.93,"body":"that is also the case on"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1116.81,"endTime":1119.93,"body":"the Indian Subcontinent,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1119.93,"endTime":1122.36,"body":"but there are some"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1119.93,"endTime":1122.36,"body":"reasons for silence here"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1122.36,"endTime":1123.773,"body":"that are different."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1124.82,"endTime":1126.56,"body":"People who came here were looking ahead,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1126.56,"endTime":1128.42,"body":"they had to build a new life,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1128.42,"endTime":1130.28,"body":"largely in a hostile environment,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1130.28,"endTime":1131.45,"body":"and interestingly,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1131.45,"endTime":1135.05,"body":"when Indians and Pakistanis came here,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1135.05,"endTime":1136.19,"body":"Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1136.19,"endTime":1137.66,"body":"when they were working in the factories,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1137.66,"endTime":1140.21,"body":"they were working side by side,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1140.21,"endTime":1142.19,"body":"they were also fighting together"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1142.19,"endTime":1143.96,"body":"in those early post-war years"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1143.96,"endTime":1146.603,"body":"for equality and against racism."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1147.44,"endTime":1150.113,"body":"There wasn't much time"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1147.44,"endTime":1150.113,"body":"to dwell on the past."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1151.1,"endTime":1154.76,"body":"These are also shameful memories,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1154.76,"endTime":1157.64,"body":"terrible things happened on all sides,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1157.64,"endTime":1159.023,"body":"there were bystanders,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1160.04,"endTime":1162.23,"body":"Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1162.23,"endTime":1165.44,"body":"nobody wants to talk out"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1162.23,"endTime":1165.44,"body":"loud about these things,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1165.44,"endTime":1169.7,"body":"but there is also an"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1165.44,"endTime":1169.7,"body":"institutional silence,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1169.7,"endTime":1172.01,"body":"there are no memorials"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1169.7,"endTime":1172.01,"body":"to the people who died,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1172.01,"endTime":1173.993,"body":"in Britain or anywhere in the world,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1176.3,"endTime":1179.06,"body":"no one talks about empire,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1179.06,"endTime":1180.02,"body":"they certainly didn't"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1180.02,"endTime":1182.6,"body":"when those post-war migrants came,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1182.6,"endTime":1184.19,"body":"there was no public space"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1184.19,"endTime":1186.59,"body":"for survivors to voice their memories,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1186.59,"endTime":1189.26,"body":"and then their children, born here,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1189.26,"endTime":1191.69,"body":"they never learned about"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1189.26,"endTime":1191.69,"body":"partition in school,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1191.69,"endTime":1194.18,"body":"they didn't even know"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1191.69,"endTime":1194.18,"body":"to ask their parents,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1194.18,"endTime":1198.323,"body":"they may not even have known"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1194.18,"endTime":1198.323,"body":"what the word partition meant."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1199.25,"endTime":1202.4,"body":"But silence can be noisy,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1202.4,"endTime":1204.35,"body":"prejudice persisted,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1204.35,"endTime":1207.62,"body":"but there were other"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1204.35,"endTime":1207.62,"body":"contradictory clues too."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1207.62,"endTime":1209.57,"body":"People talked of back home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1209.57,"endTime":1213.56,"body":"but home was not the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1209.57,"endTime":1213.56,"body":"place the family lived now"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1213.56,"endTime":1215.213,"body":"on the Indian Subcontinent,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1216.08,"endTime":1218.81,"body":"there were gaps in family histories,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1218.81,"endTime":1221.84,"body":"no-go areas in terms of conversations,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1221.84,"endTime":1224.18,"body":"and if you listened closely,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1224.18,"endTime":1226.79,"body":"when people asked, where are you from,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1226.79,"endTime":1228.71,"body":"there was a hesitation."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1228.71,"endTime":1231.86,"body":"Do you say it's the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1228.71,"endTime":1231.86,"body":"place that you were born,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1231.86,"endTime":1235.523,"body":"or was it the place that you"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1231.86,"endTime":1235.523,"body":"then moved to across a border?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1237.95,"endTime":1238.88,"body":"70 years on,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1238.88,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"I wanted to be part of"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1238.88,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"breaking that silence."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1243.08,"endTime":1244.67,"body":"My team and I did call-outs,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1244.67,"endTime":1247.97,"body":"and we contacted grassroots organizations,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1247.97,"endTime":1249.77,"body":"I never approached people directly,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1249.77,"endTime":1251.3,"body":"I didn't think that was appropriate,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1251.3,"endTime":1254.243,"body":"because these are traumatic memories."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1255.08,"endTime":1259.34,"body":"And children, or mostly"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1255.08,"endTime":1259.34,"body":"grandchildren responded,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1259.34,"endTime":1260.51,"body":"and I soon realized"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1260.51,"endTime":1263.57,"body":"these stories were everywhere in Britain,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1263.57,"endTime":1264.743,"body":"and we didn't know."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1270.23,"body":"I interviewed colonial British"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1270.23,"body":"and British South Asians"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1270.23,"endTime":1273.32,"body":"who were eyewitnesses to the end of empire"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1273.32,"endTime":1275.84,"body":"and the bloody birth of two nations,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1275.84,"endTime":1278.453,"body":"and came to Britain"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1275.84,"endTime":1278.453,"body":"and made it their home."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1279.32,"endTime":1280.97,"body":"I traveled across Britain,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1280.97,"endTime":1282.41,"body":"and in living rooms,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1282.41,"endTime":1283.46,"body":"people opened up,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1283.46,"endTime":1285.53,"body":"sometimes speaking for the first time"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1285.53,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"of recollections that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1285.53,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"were traumatic, wistful,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1292.703,"body":"and full of longing for a"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1292.703,"body":"life and land long fled."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1293.57,"endTime":1295.77,"body":"The stories from the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1293.57,"endTime":1295.77,"body":"months around partition"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1297.17,"endTime":1299.6,"body":"were the stories that I was asking about."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1299.6,"endTime":1301.73,"body":"They do not include Kashmir."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1301.73,"endTime":1304.37,"body":"And I wanted to show"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1301.73,"endTime":1304.37,"body":"the varied experience,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1304.37,"endTime":1305.87,"body":"of course Hindu, Sikh, Muslim,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1305.87,"endTime":1308.54,"body":"but also Parsi and Anglo Indian,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1308.54,"endTime":1312.05,"body":"the geographical, not"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1308.54,"endTime":1312.05,"body":"just Punjab and Bengal,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1312.05,"endTime":1314.3,"body":"gender as well as class,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1314.3,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"and they showed the complex tapestry"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1318.5,"endTime":1320.12,"body":"of the partition experience,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1320.12,"endTime":1323.243,"body":"but they are far from"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1320.12,"endTime":1323.243,"body":"a definitive account."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1324.89,"endTime":1327.89,"body":"So let's hear some of these stories."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1327.89,"endTime":1330.23,"body":"This is Gurbakhsh Garca,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1330.23,"endTime":1334.55,"body":"he was 12 at the time of partition,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1334.55,"endTime":1339.29,"body":"and he was born in Dhandari"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1334.55,"endTime":1339.29,"body":"Khurd, in the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1339.29,"endTime":1344.123,"body":"and he described a"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1339.29,"endTime":1344.123,"body":"really magical childhood."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1345.8,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"Something he said really"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1345.8,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"stayed with me for a long time,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1352.343,"body":"here he is describing,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1353.185,"endTime":1355.73,"body":"he was from a Sikh family,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1355.73,"endTime":1358.94,"body":"how close relations were in his village"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1358.94,"endTime":1362.6,"body":"between the Sikh and the Muslim community."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1362.6,"endTime":1365.45,"body":"This is Gurbakhsh when I"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1362.6,"endTime":1365.45,"body":"interviewed him back in 2017."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1367.444,"endTime":1368.277,"body":"- [Gurbakhsh] We didn't really"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1368.277,"endTime":1371.15,"body":"think about religion very much."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1371.15,"endTime":1373.34,"body":"We knew there were different names,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1373.34,"endTime":1376.25,"body":"apparently Muslims were merely farmers,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1376.25,"endTime":1377.9,"body":"they had smaller chunks of land."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1377.9,"endTime":1379.91,"body":"- [Kavita] Would you"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1377.9,"endTime":1379.91,"body":"celebrate festivals together?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1379.91,"endTime":1381.38,"body":"- [Gurbakhsh] Yes, at Eid,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1381.38,"endTime":1383.12,"body":"they'd send sweets to our house,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1383.12,"endTime":1384.14,"body":"and at Diwali,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1384.14,"endTime":1385.88,"body":"we'd send sweets to their house,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1385.88,"endTime":1387.59,"body":"and it was accepted."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1387.59,"endTime":1392.59,"body":"It was a fairly close"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1387.59,"endTime":1392.59,"body":"relationship all the time."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1392.75,"endTime":1395.18,"body":"- [Kavita] So close that a Muslim neighbor"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1395.18,"endTime":1398.0,"body":"raised Sikh cousins of"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1395.18,"endTime":1398.0,"body":"Gurbakhsh as her own"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1398.0,"endTime":1400.4,"body":"after a tragedy struck the family."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1400.4,"endTime":1401.72,"body":"- [Gurbakhsh] Their mother had died"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1401.72,"endTime":1403.27,"body":"when they were little children,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1404.493,"endTime":1409.07,"body":"and one of her best"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1404.493,"endTime":1409.07,"body":"friends, a Muslim lady,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1409.07,"endTime":1410.573,"body":"she actually brought them up,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1411.41,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"they used to suckle,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1415.763,"body":"because she had children of the same age,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1416.96,"endTime":1419.66,"body":"and she looked after those"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1416.96,"endTime":1419.66,"body":"children just like her own."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1420.56,"endTime":1424.226,"body":"She was just a wonderful, wonderful lady,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1424.226,"endTime":1426.35,"body":"and she used to bathe me,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1426.35,"endTime":1428.0,"body":"long before the partition,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1428.0,"endTime":1430.583,"body":"when I was six or seven,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1432.47,"endTime":1434.06,"body":"and her children, her sons"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1434.06,"endTime":1437.663,"body":"would take me to the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1434.06,"endTime":1437.663,"body":"farm, carry me sometimes."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1439.25,"endTime":1440.865,"body":"We never thought, ever,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1440.865,"endTime":1444.032,"body":"that, one day, we'll have to separate,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1445.071,"endTime":1446.154,"body":"and for good."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1448.063,"endTime":1452.45,"body":"- And so that image of a Muslim woman"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1452.45,"endTime":1457.45,"body":"suckling the Sikh children"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1452.45,"endTime":1457.45,"body":"of her deceased best friend"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1457.79,"endTime":1461.0,"body":"really tells you how"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1457.79,"endTime":1461.0,"body":"intimate relations could be"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1461.0,"endTime":1462.56,"body":"between people."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1462.56,"endTime":1463.91,"body":"And it's worth remembering"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1463.91,"endTime":1467.84,"body":"that if you were Punjabi,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1463.91,"endTime":1467.84,"body":"like Gurbakhsh was,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1467.84,"endTime":1469.58,"body":"you shared the same language,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1469.58,"endTime":1471.68,"body":"you ate the same kinds of food,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1471.68,"endTime":1475.28,"body":"you shared traditions, a similar culture,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1475.28,"endTime":1477.71,"body":"you had much more in"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1475.28,"endTime":1477.71,"body":"common with each other,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1477.71,"endTime":1478.91,"body":"regardless of your religion,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1478.91,"endTime":1480.05,"body":"than you would, for example,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1480.05,"endTime":1482.39,"body":"if you met a Bengali,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1482.39,"endTime":1485.24,"body":"and ties to your land, as I said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1485.24,"endTime":1487.82,"body":"could be stronger than"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1485.24,"endTime":1487.82,"body":"ties to your religion."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1487.82,"endTime":1491.45,"body":"And what ended up happening"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1487.82,"endTime":1491.45,"body":"in Gurbakhsh's village"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1491.45,"endTime":1493.7,"body":"were all the Muslims left."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1493.7,"endTime":1494.87,"body":"They didn't think they would leave,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1494.87,"endTime":1497.03,"body":"they left the keys with his family,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1497.03,"endTime":1498.77,"body":"they thought they would come back,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1498.77,"endTime":1500.39,"body":"but they never did."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1500.39,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"And Gurbakhsh remembers sitting,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1504.77,"body":"along with other people in his village,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1504.77,"endTime":1506.21,"body":"to the radio"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1506.21,"endTime":1508.85,"body":"to hear where his village would be,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1508.85,"endTime":1511.37,"body":"and they discovered, to their joy,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1511.37,"endTime":1513.83,"body":"that their village was"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1511.37,"endTime":1513.83,"body":"going to be in India,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1513.83,"endTime":1517.01,"body":"but that meant that their"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1513.83,"endTime":1517.01,"body":"Muslim friends and neighbors"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1517.01,"endTime":1517.843,"body":"had to leave,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1517.843,"endTime":1521.93,"body":"and he then witnessed"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1517.843,"endTime":1521.93,"body":"terrible scenes of violence."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1521.93,"endTime":1524.15,"body":"But he also saw,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1524.15,"endTime":1527.84,"body":"one day, when he was at an"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1524.15,"endTime":1527.84,"body":"elderly Sikh relative's house,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1527.84,"endTime":1529.73,"body":"a distant relative's house,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1529.73,"endTime":1531.89,"body":"a young Muslim girl,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1531.89,"endTime":1534.74,"body":"and he thinks she had been taken,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1534.74,"endTime":1537.05,"body":"she was a very beautiful girl,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1537.05,"endTime":1539.93,"body":"and she was forced to eat pig fat"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1539.93,"endTime":1541.85,"body":"in front of the other Sikh relatives,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1541.85,"endTime":1543.29,"body":"and he was very disturbed,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1543.29,"endTime":1544.88,"body":"and he ran home to his mother,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1544.88,"endTime":1545.81,"body":"he was only 12,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1545.81,"endTime":1549.413,"body":"and she called these"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1545.81,"endTime":1549.413,"body":"Sikh relatives barbarian."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1550.49,"endTime":1551.667,"body":"And I asked him,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1551.667,"endTime":1554.96,"body":"\"Do you think that she"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1551.667,"endTime":1554.96,"body":"was being raped by him,\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1554.96,"endTime":1555.793,"body":"he said, \"Probably,\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1555.793,"endTime":1556.626,"body":"and I said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1556.626,"endTime":1558.56,"body":"\"But what did the other"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1556.626,"endTime":1558.56,"body":"people in the village do?\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1558.56,"endTime":1559.393,"body":"And he said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1559.393,"endTime":1563.127,"body":"\"Nothing, because we knew that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1559.393,"endTime":1563.127,"body":"the same thing was happening"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1563.127,"endTime":1565.13,"body":"\"to the women on our side.\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1565.13,"endTime":1567.77,"body":"And so that's how people"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1565.13,"endTime":1567.77,"body":"justified that existence,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1567.77,"endTime":1568.67,"body":"and he said, in the end,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1568.67,"endTime":1572.12,"body":"he became so inured to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1568.67,"endTime":1572.12,"body":"dead bodies and violence,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1572.12,"endTime":1573.83,"body":"and it was something"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1572.12,"endTime":1573.83,"body":"he'd never talked about"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1573.83,"endTime":1576.32,"body":"with his own family members,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1576.32,"endTime":1579.353,"body":"and he now describes himself as agnostic."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1581.93,"endTime":1583.94,"body":"This is Harchet Bains,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1583.94,"endTime":1585.92,"body":"and one morning,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1585.92,"endTime":1587.51,"body":"he was in West Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1587.51,"endTime":1589.64,"body":"as many Sikhs were,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1589.64,"endTime":1594.64,"body":"and he was awoken and told"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1589.64,"endTime":1594.64,"body":"that he had to quickly get up"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1598.634,"endTime":1599.503,"body":"as they were to leave suddenly."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1600.925,"endTime":1603.38,"body":"- [Harchet] We were risen up"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1600.925,"endTime":1603.38,"body":"quite early in the morning"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1603.38,"endTime":1606.11,"body":"and we were told just to start walking,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1606.11,"endTime":1609.26,"body":"so we started walking behind a cart,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1609.26,"endTime":1612.413,"body":"which was being pulled by two oxen."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1613.46,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"It was loaded with food, and"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1613.46,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"clothing, and other stuff,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1617.75,"endTime":1619.07,"body":"quite full,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1619.07,"endTime":1622.22,"body":"and some fodder for the animals."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1622.22,"endTime":1626.69,"body":"And we were quite dazed,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1622.22,"endTime":1626.69,"body":"and quite annoyed,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1626.69,"endTime":1628.97,"body":"and very, very unhappy."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1628.97,"endTime":1631.46,"body":"- [Kavita] For safety,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1628.97,"endTime":1631.46,"body":"they walked in a line,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1631.46,"endTime":1634.46,"body":"known as a kafila, or caravan."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1634.46,"endTime":1636.71,"body":"As they walked, other"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1634.46,"endTime":1636.71,"body":"villages joined them,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1636.71,"endTime":1639.92,"body":"until the column stretched for miles."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1639.92,"endTime":1642.44,"body":"They were exhausted and hungry."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1642.44,"endTime":1644.72,"body":"- [Harchet] We were drinking"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1642.44,"endTime":1644.72,"body":"water from the puddles,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1644.72,"endTime":1648.35,"body":"which wasn't very clean, it was rainwater,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1648.35,"endTime":1649.79,"body":"and without proper food,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1649.79,"endTime":1652.04,"body":"eating leaves and things to survive."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1652.04,"endTime":1653.81,"body":"Some of the children started crying"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1653.81,"endTime":1655.52,"body":"because they didn't have enough food,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1655.52,"endTime":1657.74,"body":"and they were tired, they wanted to sleep,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1657.74,"endTime":1659.45,"body":"and they couldn't do anything,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1659.45,"endTime":1661.55,"body":"but we were made to walk."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1661.55,"endTime":1665.06,"body":"- The children were told to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1661.55,"endTime":1665.06,"body":"walk under the cart for safety,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1665.06,"endTime":1667.28,"body":"as the line was coming under attack,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1667.28,"endTime":1669.65,"body":"and young women were targeted too."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1669.65,"endTime":1674.27,"body":"And so you can see Harchet"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1669.65,"endTime":1674.27,"body":"was one of the many who,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1674.27,"endTime":1677.797,"body":"we remember those pictures of"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1674.27,"endTime":1677.797,"body":"the long lines, those kafila,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1680.39,"endTime":1682.73,"body":"he thinks there were"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1680.39,"endTime":1682.73,"body":"miles and miles of them,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1682.73,"endTime":1683.93,"body":"it took about eight days"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1683.93,"endTime":1686.963,"body":"for his family to get to India."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1689.448,"endTime":1691.76,"body":"When he arrived, they were given a house"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1691.76,"endTime":1695.27,"body":"that had belonged to a Muslim family,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1695.27,"endTime":1696.23,"body":"it was all broken,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1698.75,"body":"so they were dispersed"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1698.75,"body":"with other family members,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1698.75,"endTime":1700.85,"body":"and he remembers going to school,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1700.85,"endTime":1703.67,"body":"and the Indians who hadn't"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1700.85,"endTime":1703.67,"body":"had to make the migration"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1703.67,"endTime":1704.57,"body":"laughed at them."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1704.57,"endTime":1707.0,"body":"And so that never felt like home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1707.0,"endTime":1709.22,"body":"they never felt like they belonged there,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1709.22,"endTime":1710.51,"body":"and to this day,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1710.51,"endTime":1713.33,"body":"he feels that his family lost everything."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1713.33,"endTime":1715.94,"body":"He has never been back to Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1715.94,"endTime":1718.19,"body":"he never had the chance to say goodbye"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1718.19,"endTime":1720.8,"body":"to his best friend, Muhammad Aziz,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1720.8,"endTime":1721.73,"body":"they lost everything,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1721.73,"endTime":1723.56,"body":"and he says,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1723.56,"endTime":1725.217,"body":"we heard him in the video,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1725.217,"endTime":1726.777,"body":"\"They say we are independent now,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1726.777,"endTime":1730.017,"body":"\"but what good is that when"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1726.777,"endTime":1730.017,"body":"you've lost everything?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1730.017,"endTime":1731.187,"body":"\"It was a great tragedy,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1731.187,"endTime":1733.137,"body":"\"and we didn't like being friends one day"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1733.137,"endTime":1734.577,"body":"\"and enemies the next."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1734.577,"endTime":1736.587,"body":"\"We will always curse the authorities,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1736.587,"endTime":1738.417,"body":"\"the British or Indians,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1738.417,"endTime":1741.747,"body":"\"the politicians who made this mess."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1741.747,"endTime":1743.697,"body":"\"I will never forget these tragic events,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1743.697,"endTime":1745.197,"body":"\"I will always remember them,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1745.197,"endTime":1747.597,"body":"\"I will take these things to my grave."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1747.597,"endTime":1750.557,"body":"\"They were bad things, but they happened.\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1752.21,"endTime":1756.383,"body":"In the opposite direction"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1752.21,"endTime":1756.383,"body":"was Iftakhr Ahmed."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1757.49,"endTime":1760.49,"body":"He came to Britain in 1951,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1760.49,"endTime":1764.36,"body":"but in 1947, he was 17,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1764.36,"endTime":1765.53,"body":"in Delhi, alone,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1765.53,"endTime":1769.28,"body":"and he remembers the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1765.53,"endTime":1769.28,"body":"Independence Day celebrations,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1769.28,"endTime":1771.74,"body":"he remembers the fireworks in the air,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1771.74,"endTime":1774.83,"body":"he remembers singing that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1771.74,"endTime":1774.83,"body":"the British were leaving,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1774.83,"endTime":1777.65,"body":"and how delighted everyone was,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1777.65,"endTime":1779.45,"body":"and he never thought for a moment"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1779.45,"endTime":1781.07,"body":"that he would have to leave."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1781.07,"endTime":1782.51,"body":"But by September,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1782.51,"endTime":1785.87,"body":"it was dangerous to be a Muslim in Delhi,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1785.87,"endTime":1790.76,"body":"and he made a terrifying"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1785.87,"endTime":1790.76,"body":"escape across Delhi"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1790.76,"endTime":1792.29,"body":"to the Jama Masjid,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1792.29,"endTime":1796.88,"body":"the mosque where Muslims"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1792.29,"endTime":1796.88,"body":"were gathering for safety."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1796.88,"endTime":1798.5,"body":"He quickly moved to the old fort"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1798.5,"endTime":1800.84,"body":"because conditions were so bad there,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1800.84,"endTime":1803.78,"body":"and when he heard that there"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1800.84,"endTime":1803.78,"body":"was a train going to Lahore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1803.78,"endTime":1807.38,"body":"despite people telling him"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1803.78,"endTime":1807.38,"body":"how dangerous the trains were,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1807.38,"endTime":1809.423,"body":"he decided to get on it."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1811.704,"endTime":1813.47,"body":"As he approached, after many days,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1813.47,"endTime":1815.87,"body":"the border with Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1815.87,"endTime":1817.16,"body":"he got out of the train,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1817.16,"endTime":1819.29,"body":"and people were cooking and eating,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1819.29,"endTime":1820.94,"body":"he had no food,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1820.94,"endTime":1822.41,"body":"and another train came in,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1822.41,"endTime":1827.41,"body":"and it was a train full"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1822.41,"endTime":1827.41,"body":"of Pakistani military."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1829.64,"endTime":1830.69,"body":"He was a young man,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1830.69,"endTime":1831.89,"body":"on his own, with no luggage,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1831.89,"endTime":1833.684,"body":"and he got in on it."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1833.684,"endTime":1836.0,"body":"Iftakhr Ahmed now lives in Brighton."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1836.0,"endTime":1837.2,"body":"Along with other Muslims,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1837.2,"endTime":1840.44,"body":"he made an epic journey"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1837.2,"endTime":1840.44,"body":"from Delhi to Pakistan."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1840.44,"endTime":1841.273,"body":"As a young man,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1841.273,"endTime":1843.23,"body":"he managed to get onto a military train,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1843.23,"endTime":1845.87,"body":"and was given some advice"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1843.23,"endTime":1845.87,"body":"by the soldiers onboard"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1845.87,"endTime":1848.33,"body":"as they came into Lahore Station."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1848.33,"endTime":1850.4,"body":"He describes, in harrowing detail,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1850.4,"endTime":1852.11,"body":"what happened next."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1852.11,"endTime":1853.078,"body":"- [Iftakhr] They told me,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1853.078,"endTime":1855.353,"body":"son, this is Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1856.34,"endTime":1858.69,"body":"this is your world, do"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1856.34,"endTime":1858.69,"body":"whatever you want to do."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1859.91,"endTime":1861.35,"body":"I was tired,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1861.35,"endTime":1862.883,"body":"and in my mind,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1864.56,"endTime":1867.23,"body":"I thought I'd come to a safe place,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1867.23,"endTime":1869.27,"body":"I'm not anymore in danger,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1869.27,"endTime":1870.77,"body":"what I want to do is to sleep."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1872.36,"endTime":1874.67,"body":"On a platform, put my head down,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1874.67,"endTime":1875.633,"body":"I went to sleep."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1876.92,"endTime":1879.293,"body":"About five o'clock in"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1876.92,"endTime":1879.293,"body":"the morning, I woke up."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1880.22,"endTime":1881.607,"body":"I could feel all wet,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1882.692,"endTime":1884.721,"body":"the platform was full with people,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1884.721,"endTime":1886.571,"body":"I asked, were they all sleeping here?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1888.29,"endTime":1891.5,"body":"And one man, with a torch,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1891.5,"endTime":1893.63,"body":"shone it light that,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1893.63,"endTime":1895.22,"body":"and I got up."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1895.22,"endTime":1897.533,"body":"Of course, I was laying"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1895.22,"endTime":1897.533,"body":"with the dead bodies,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1898.91,"endTime":1902.9,"body":"children, women, all cut up their faces,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1902.9,"endTime":1905.393,"body":"and women's breasts are cut up,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1906.418,"endTime":1908.03,"body":"they killed all."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1908.03,"endTime":1909.02,"body":"- [Kavita] During the night,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1909.02,"endTime":1911.96,"body":"trains had arrived full of dead bodies,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1911.96,"endTime":1914.3,"body":"which the army had"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1911.96,"endTime":1914.3,"body":"unloaded onto the platform"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1914.3,"endTime":1916.46,"body":"where Iftakhr was sleeping."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1916.46,"endTime":1919.13,"body":"Unsurprisingly, he quickly left."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1919.13,"endTime":1922.37,"body":"He was shocked when he"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1919.13,"endTime":1922.37,"body":"walked into the city."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1922.37,"endTime":1924.083,"body":"- [Iftakhr] Lahore was all burnt,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1925.442,"endTime":1927.803,"body":"the complete town was burnt,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1929.33,"endTime":1931.577,"body":"that's what the Pakistanis did,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1932.554,"endTime":1934.854,"body":"they burned their houses"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1932.554,"endTime":1934.854,"body":"and the people in it."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1935.997,"endTime":1937.283,"body":"Indians did it to us,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1938.12,"endTime":1941.753,"body":"but Pakistanis did to them the same."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1943.19,"endTime":1945.98,"body":"- He'd never spoken about"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1943.19,"endTime":1945.98,"body":"his traumatic experiences"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1945.98,"endTime":1948.44,"body":"to anyone,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1948.44,"endTime":1950.0,"body":"and this is his son, Nick,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1950.0,"endTime":1954.98,"body":"who was in the room when I"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1950.0,"endTime":1954.98,"body":"was interviewing Iftakhr,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1954.98,"endTime":1956.12,"body":"and he was very emotional"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1956.12,"endTime":1957.92,"body":"hearing this story for the first time,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1957.92,"endTime":1960.77,"body":"and he's now interviewing his dad,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1960.77,"endTime":1965.663,"body":"and trying to write a memoir"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1960.77,"endTime":1965.663,"body":"with his dad about his life."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1966.62,"endTime":1969.803,"body":"And Iftakhr said something"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1966.62,"endTime":1969.803,"body":"very interesting:"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1970.64,"endTime":1974.75,"body":"he spent up to 17 years"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1970.64,"endTime":1974.75,"body":"of his life in India,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1974.75,"endTime":1978.23,"body":"he spent three, four years in Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1978.23,"endTime":1980.093,"body":"and has been in Britain ever since,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1981.2,"endTime":1982.163,"body":"and he said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1983.277,"endTime":1985.497,"body":"\"India was mine as well,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1985.497,"endTime":1987.71,"body":"\"no one can take that away.\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1987.71,"endTime":1990.47,"body":"And he wants to go back to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1987.71,"endTime":1990.47,"body":"his village one last time"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1990.47,"endTime":1991.64,"body":"before he dies,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1991.64,"endTime":1996.08,"body":"he wants to go to the graves"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1991.64,"endTime":1996.08,"body":"of his mother and father,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1996.08,"endTime":1998.09,"body":"who were buried in India's earth,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":1998.09,"endTime":2000.04,"body":"as are his grandparents,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2000.04,"endTime":2002.05,"body":"he remembers his Hindu friends,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2002.05,"endTime":2003.88,"body":"he wants to see if they're still living,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2003.88,"endTime":2007.48,"body":"and he can even remember"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2003.88,"endTime":2007.48,"body":"the smell of the alleyways"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2007.48,"endTime":2010.63,"body":"that he used to play"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2007.48,"endTime":2010.63,"body":"in, his childhood game."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2010.63,"endTime":2015.37,"body":"And so he feels he's"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2010.63,"endTime":2015.37,"body":"Indian still to this day,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2015.37,"endTime":2017.05,"body":"much more than Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2017.05,"endTime":2019.21,"body":"although he calls himself, actually,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2019.21,"endTime":2020.62,"body":"English, not British,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2020.62,"endTime":2022.18,"body":"English because, he says,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2022.18,"endTime":2024.493,"body":"I was born under the British Raj."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2026.2,"endTime":2028.54,"body":"And the attachment to the place left,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2028.54,"endTime":2031.09,"body":"just like Iftakhr feels,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2031.09,"endTime":2034.24,"body":"is something that I came"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2031.09,"endTime":2034.24,"body":"across time and again"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2034.24,"endTime":2035.2,"body":"with my interviewees,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2035.2,"endTime":2037.87,"body":"and it wasn't something"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2035.2,"endTime":2037.87,"body":"that I had expected."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2037.87,"endTime":2041.62,"body":"I thought I would hear stories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2037.87,"endTime":2041.62,"body":"of violence and horror,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2041.62,"endTime":2045.28,"body":"but that attachment to the land"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2045.28,"endTime":2048.46,"body":"has persisted in all these years,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2048.46,"endTime":2051.43,"body":"even if people have never once gone back"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2051.43,"endTime":2054.643,"body":"to visit the place that they"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2051.43,"endTime":2054.643,"body":"had to leave in a hurry."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2056.2,"endTime":2059.56,"body":"Raj Daswani is a Hindu,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2059.56,"endTime":2064.56,"body":"he was from the Sindh"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2059.56,"endTime":2064.56,"body":"Province, in Karachi,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2064.93,"endTime":2066.46,"body":"and when he was a young boy,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2066.46,"endTime":2070.69,"body":"he used to distribute Quit"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2066.46,"endTime":2070.69,"body":"India leaflets around Karachi,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2070.69,"endTime":2073.6,"body":"but he never for a moment thought"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2073.6,"endTime":2076.12,"body":"that asking for an independent India"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2076.12,"endTime":2077.77,"body":"would mean that he and his family"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2077.77,"endTime":2080.143,"body":"would have to leave Karachi."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2081.58,"endTime":2082.66,"body":"He was a teenager,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2082.66,"endTime":2086.23,"body":"and he was in love with"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2082.66,"endTime":2086.23,"body":"one of his neighbors,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2086.23,"endTime":2088.03,"body":"who was actually a Muslim,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2088.03,"endTime":2090.1,"body":"her name was Yasmin,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2090.1,"endTime":2094.84,"body":"and this is him describing Yasmin,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2094.84,"endTime":2098.59,"body":"and how they would sometimes"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2094.84,"endTime":2098.59,"body":"look at the Moon together"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2098.59,"endTime":2101.23,"body":"and dream of one day marrying each other."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2101.23,"endTime":2104.08,"body":"- [Raj] We were 12, 13 years old,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2104.08,"endTime":2106.21,"body":"living in the same building,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2106.21,"endTime":2108.91,"body":"we used to meet at the terrace,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2108.91,"endTime":2110.32,"body":"light a candle,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2110.32,"endTime":2113.56,"body":"and just talk, and see each other,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2113.56,"endTime":2115.93,"body":"holding hands with each other."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2115.93,"endTime":2117.46,"body":"I used to tell her,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2117.46,"endTime":2121.69,"body":"putting my hands like"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2117.46,"endTime":2121.69,"body":"this against the Moon,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2121.69,"endTime":2123.22,"body":"that, one day,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2123.22,"endTime":2124.453,"body":"I'll give you this Moon."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2125.98,"endTime":2128.71,"body":"- [Kavita] In the first"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2125.98,"endTime":2128.71,"body":"week of September, 1947,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2128.71,"endTime":2132.43,"body":"Raj's Hindu family"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2128.71,"endTime":2132.43,"body":"decided to leave Pakistan."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2132.43,"endTime":2134.95,"body":"The mood in Karachi had"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2132.43,"endTime":2134.95,"body":"changed against them"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2134.95,"endTime":2138.31,"body":"with the arrival of Muslim"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2134.95,"endTime":2138.31,"body":"refugees fleeing India."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2138.31,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"Their longtime Muslim"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2138.31,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"friends and neighbors"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2140.47,"endTime":2143.26,"body":"pleaded with them not to go."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2143.26,"endTime":2145.33,"body":"- [Raj] Everybody came out,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2145.33,"endTime":2147.73,"body":"everybody requested us,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2147.73,"endTime":2150.4,"body":"don't leave, don't leave,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2150.4,"endTime":2151.42,"body":"and they were crying,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2151.42,"endTime":2153.253,"body":"physically, they were crying,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2154.66,"endTime":2156.67,"body":"but there was no way."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2156.67,"endTime":2158.11,"body":"At that particular time,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2158.11,"endTime":2159.673,"body":"we had to leave our house."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2160.54,"endTime":2161.98,"body":"- [Kavita] Raj was heartbroken"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2161.98,"endTime":2166.69,"body":"at leaving the land of his"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2161.98,"endTime":2166.69,"body":"birth, and his first love."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2166.69,"endTime":2171.69,"body":"- [Raj] That parting of"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2166.69,"endTime":2171.69,"body":"each other was unbearable."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2172.99,"endTime":2175.63,"body":"She was crying, I was crying,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2175.63,"endTime":2179.68,"body":"and we held hands again with each other,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2179.68,"endTime":2183.13,"body":"and slowly, slowly,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2179.68,"endTime":2183.13,"body":"slowly, slowly, slowly,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2183.13,"endTime":2184.72,"body":"we left each other."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2184.72,"endTime":2189.4,"body":"And I could see that she's"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2184.72,"endTime":2189.4,"body":"looking at me 'til that end."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2195.73,"endTime":2197.32,"body":"I hoped at that time"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2197.32,"endTime":2199.6,"body":"that I'm going to see her again,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2199.6,"endTime":2203.8,"body":"because all the Hindus were"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2199.6,"endTime":2203.8,"body":"expecting that, after some time,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2203.8,"endTime":2205.96,"body":"partition will not be there,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2205.96,"endTime":2207.973,"body":"and they will return back to their home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2209.44,"endTime":2210.853,"body":"but that didn't happen."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2212.17,"endTime":2214.24,"body":"- [Kavita] And you never"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2212.17,"endTime":2214.24,"body":"heard from her again?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2214.24,"endTime":2215.26,"body":"- [Raj] No."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2215.26,"endTime":2220.0,"body":"- And so even with the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2215.26,"endTime":2220.0,"body":"cataclysmic and dramatic backdrop"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2220.0,"endTime":2222.85,"body":"of partition, and the violence,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2222.85,"endTime":2224.08,"body":"when you speak to people,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2224.08,"endTime":2226.99,"body":"sometimes, it's these tiny memories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2226.99,"endTime":2230.5,"body":"that are the details that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2226.99,"endTime":2230.5,"body":"are so important to them."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2230.5,"endTime":2232.84,"body":"When I speak to Raj,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2232.84,"endTime":2235.75,"body":"what he remembers about"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2232.84,"endTime":2235.75,"body":"leaving Karachi is Yasmin,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2235.75,"endTime":2237.94,"body":"and he remembers that goodbye,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2237.94,"endTime":2239.65,"body":"he remembers watching her"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2239.65,"endTime":2242.86,"body":"'til the very moment 'til"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2239.65,"endTime":2242.86,"body":"he couldn't see her anymore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2242.86,"endTime":2247.45,"body":"and he recounts it with"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2242.86,"endTime":2247.45,"body":"such clarity 70 years on."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2247.45,"endTime":2248.74,"body":"Raj took a boat,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2248.74,"endTime":2251.62,"body":"and he went to a refugee camp in Mumbai,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2251.62,"endTime":2253.6,"body":"with thousands of other Sindhis,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2253.6,"endTime":2256.18,"body":"and he lived there for 12 years."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2256.18,"endTime":2259.93,"body":"He went back to Karachi in 1992,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2259.93,"endTime":2264.4,"body":"and he went back to the home"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2259.93,"endTime":2264.4,"body":"that he had once lived in,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2264.4,"endTime":2266.86,"body":"and he looked up at that terrace,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2266.86,"endTime":2268.57,"body":"and when he arrived in Karachi,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2268.57,"endTime":2270.88,"body":"he was so moved he fell to his feet,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2270.88,"endTime":2272.77,"body":"and he took the dust from the earth"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2272.77,"endTime":2274.247,"body":"and he put it to his"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2272.77,"endTime":2274.247,"body":"forehead, and he said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2274.247,"endTime":2276.07,"body":"\"Mother, I've come home.\""},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2276.07,"endTime":2279.37,"body":"And he says, if he had a choice back then,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2279.37,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"if he had been older,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2282.82,"body":"he would have converted to stay,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2282.82,"endTime":2283.99,"body":"because land, to him,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2283.99,"endTime":2286.72,"body":"was more important than religion."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2286.72,"endTime":2287.74,"body":"And when he went,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2287.74,"endTime":2290.95,"body":"he picked up these stones,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2290.95,"endTime":2292.03,"body":"which he showed me,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2292.03,"endTime":2294.88,"body":"he keeps them in his study, in London,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2294.88,"endTime":2297.52,"body":"and he takes them out, he holds them,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2297.52,"endTime":2299.89,"body":"he kisses them,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2299.89,"endTime":2304.89,"body":"and he says it reminds him of"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2299.89,"endTime":2304.89,"body":"that place that was his home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2304.99,"endTime":2307.09,"body":"it's his connection to that time,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2307.09,"endTime":2312.09,"body":"there is nothing else he has"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2307.09,"endTime":2312.09,"body":"from his home in Karachi."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2312.28,"endTime":2315.76,"body":"And the remnants of things like stones,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2315.76,"endTime":2316.9,"body":"the things that I have seen"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2316.9,"endTime":2319.63,"body":"in households across Britain,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2319.63,"endTime":2321.52,"body":"I've seen bricks that people have taken"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2321.52,"endTime":2323.29,"body":"from their old home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2323.29,"endTime":2326.05,"body":"I've seen soil that people keep"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2326.05,"endTime":2330.97,"body":"on their Victorian fireplace, in a jar,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2330.97,"endTime":2332.443,"body":"old tiles,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2333.46,"endTime":2335.38,"body":"people have told me they even kept dust,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2335.38,"endTime":2337.603,"body":"because that's all people have,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2339.19,"endTime":2341.29,"body":"it's the only evidence they have"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2341.29,"endTime":2344.95,"body":"that they once existed too in that place,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2344.95,"endTime":2348.553,"body":"and it is elevated to an ancestral home."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2350.2,"endTime":2351.82,"body":"This is Gita, by the way,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2351.82,"endTime":2352.72,"body":"this is his wife,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2352.72,"endTime":2353.68,"body":"it's not Yasmin,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2353.68,"endTime":2356.86,"body":"but he met her at the refugee camp"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2356.86,"endTime":2359.98,"body":"and said she reminded him of Yasmin,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2359.98,"endTime":2362.203,"body":"that's why he fell in love with her."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2363.46,"endTime":2365.61,"body":"She's not very happy"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2363.46,"endTime":2365.61,"body":"when he mentions that."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2366.472,"endTime":2369.305,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2370.66,"endTime":2371.98,"body":"So across homes in Britain"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2371.98,"endTime":2374.32,"body":"are these extraordinary stories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2374.32,"endTime":2375.58,"body":"that came to light"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2375.58,"endTime":2378.16,"body":"within families and the public space"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2378.16,"endTime":2379.3,"body":"really for the first time"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2379.3,"endTime":2381.19,"body":"during the 70th anniversary,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2381.19,"endTime":2384.193,"body":"from that generation that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2381.19,"endTime":2384.193,"body":"lived through partition."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2385.51,"endTime":2386.59,"body":"But there were some stories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2386.59,"endTime":2388.513,"body":"that were quite difficult to get to,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2389.53,"endTime":2390.96,"body":"especially the firsthand stories"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2390.96,"endTime":2392.98,"body":"of the experiences of women"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2392.98,"endTime":2397.09,"body":"who had endured sexual violence."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2397.09,"endTime":2400.3,"body":"And so we have to accept that,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2400.3,"endTime":2401.68,"body":"in the historical archives,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2401.68,"endTime":2405.523,"body":"some stories will always"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2401.68,"endTime":2405.523,"body":"be shrouded in silence."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2407.08,"endTime":2408.583,"body":"But what is bequeathed?"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2409.45,"endTime":2413.56,"body":"That investigation into the inheritance,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2413.56,"endTime":2415.18,"body":"including the inheritance of trauma,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2415.18,"endTime":2418.96,"body":"is only now being looked into."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2418.96,"endTime":2422.473,"body":"And this is Nirmal Joshi's daughter,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2424.33,"endTime":2427.693,"body":"and her mother grew up in Lahore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2428.8,"endTime":2430.57,"body":"and unlike many of my interviewees,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2430.57,"endTime":2432.37,"body":"actually, her mother did speak to her"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2432.37,"endTime":2434.38,"body":"about her experiences of partition,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2434.38,"endTime":2437.53,"body":"and she left, like so many people,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2437.53,"endTime":2438.94,"body":"a mixed legacy."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2438.94,"endTime":2442.0,"body":"She told them about a Muslim neighbor"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2442.0,"endTime":2444.07,"body":"that had warned her Hindu family"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2444.07,"endTime":2446.14,"body":"that they needed to leave quickly"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2446.14,"endTime":2449.05,"body":"because there was going to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2446.14,"endTime":2449.05,"body":"be attacks on the girls,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2449.05,"endTime":2452.98,"body":"and the Muslim neighbor took"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2449.05,"endTime":2452.98,"body":"them to the train station,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2452.98,"endTime":2455.08,"body":"but when her mother was finally in India,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2455.08,"endTime":2456.49,"body":"across the border to safety,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2456.49,"endTime":2457.93,"body":"she worked in a refugee camp,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2457.93,"endTime":2459.52,"body":"and she saw terrible things,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2459.52,"endTime":2462.28,"body":"of women's bodies mutilated,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2462.28,"endTime":2464.53,"body":"the after-effects of rape,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2464.53,"endTime":2467.5,"body":"women who had to have forced abortions"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2467.5,"endTime":2469.15,"body":"as a result of rape,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2469.15,"endTime":2472.03,"body":"and she made it very clear"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2469.15,"endTime":2472.03,"body":"to her daughter, Poonam,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2472.03,"endTime":2476.86,"body":"that this was happening on all sides,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2476.86,"endTime":2479.65,"body":"this was not just one group of people."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2479.65,"endTime":2483.76,"body":"And what Poonam describes"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2479.65,"endTime":2483.76,"body":"now is a very moving scene"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2483.76,"endTime":2485.61,"body":"towards the end of her mother's life,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2486.7,"endTime":2491.7,"body":"and her mother was in a home,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2486.7,"endTime":2491.7,"body":"in hospital, in Southall,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2493.18,"endTime":2495.403,"body":"overlooking, actually, the gurdwara,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2496.33,"endTime":2498.73,"body":"her mother used to say"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2496.33,"endTime":2498.73,"body":"she could be in Amritsar."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2500.98,"endTime":2504.94,"body":"It shows how notions of belonging and home"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2504.94,"endTime":2509.443,"body":"are so muddled, actually,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2511.42,"endTime":2514.81,"body":"but it also shows a connection"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2511.42,"endTime":2514.81,"body":"to the place that was left"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2514.81,"endTime":2515.89,"body":"that her mother, Nirmal,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2515.89,"endTime":2518.8,"body":"never went back to after she fled,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2518.8,"endTime":2520.69,"body":"but it's so strong, and it still endures,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2520.69,"endTime":2523.513,"body":"and it's something that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2520.69,"endTime":2523.513,"body":"Poonam herself feels tool."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2524.592,"endTime":2525.73,"body":"- [Poonam] I had my arm around her"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2525.73,"endTime":2527.14,"body":"and it felt like holding a child,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2527.14,"endTime":2528.253,"body":"she was so tiny."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2532.06,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"I didn't know what her"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2532.06,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"wishes were for the funeral,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2534.37,"endTime":2538.03,"body":"so I asked her what her favorite song was,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2538.03,"endTime":2543.03,"body":"and she sang \"Chupke"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2538.03,"endTime":2543.03,"body":"Chupke,\" by Ghulam Ali,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2543.16,"endTime":2547.363,"body":"and she sang the song"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2543.16,"endTime":2547.363,"body":"in its entirety to me."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2548.98,"endTime":2552.46,"body":"- [Kavita] It was a ghazal, a poetic song,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2552.46,"endTime":2554.833,"body":"by a Pakistani singer, in Urdu."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2555.94,"endTime":2560.166,"body":"It played at Nirmal"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2555.94,"endTime":2560.166,"body":"Pandit's Hindu funeral."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2560.166,"endTime":2565.083,"body":"(Ghulam Ali sings \"Chupke Chupke\" in Urdu)"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2579.04,"endTime":2581.83,"body":"- [Poonam] We played"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2579.04,"endTime":2581.83,"body":"\"Chupke\" at the beginning,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2581.83,"endTime":2585.4,"body":"I think it's the song that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2581.83,"endTime":2585.4,"body":"I most associated with her,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2585.4,"endTime":2588.1,"body":"I think it's the song that"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2585.4,"endTime":2588.1,"body":"reminded her of Lahore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2588.1,"endTime":2589.93,"body":"and when she sang it,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2589.93,"endTime":2591.38,"body":"we always knew she was happy."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2592.34,"endTime":2597.257,"body":"(Ghulam Ali sings \"Chupke Chupke\" in Urdu)"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2600.07,"endTime":2601.27,"body":"- [Kavita] Poonam's wish"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2601.27,"endTime":2604.54,"body":"was to take her mother's ashes to Lahore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2604.54,"endTime":2606.31,"body":"where she was born,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2606.31,"endTime":2608.65,"body":"and years later, fled,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2608.65,"endTime":2611.023,"body":"never to return while she was still alive."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2613.45,"endTime":2615.07,"body":"- [Poonam] Her happiest years of her life"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2615.07,"endTime":2617.143,"body":"were those first 17 years in Lahore,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2618.07,"endTime":2620.403,"body":"she spoke about them with such affection."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2623.087,"endTime":2625.96,"body":"That was her home, that's"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2623.087,"endTime":2625.96,"body":"where she belonged,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2625.96,"endTime":2627.51,"body":"and we wanted to take her home."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2628.619,"endTime":2633.619,"body":"(Ghulam Ali sings \"Chupke Chupke\" in Urdu)"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2633.94,"endTime":2637.84,"body":"- So what is passed"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2633.94,"endTime":2637.84,"body":"down is hugely complex."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2637.84,"endTime":2639.34,"body":"Many in the third generation,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2639.34,"endTime":2641.47,"body":"Poonam was from the second generation,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2641.47,"endTime":2643.72,"body":"have contacted me over the years,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2643.72,"endTime":2646.78,"body":"asking how to approach elderly relatives,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2646.78,"endTime":2649.903,"body":"or regretting that they never"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2646.78,"endTime":2649.903,"body":"asked when they had the time."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2650.92,"endTime":2654.37,"body":"The final person we're"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2650.92,"endTime":2654.37,"body":"going to speak to is Sparsh,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2654.37,"endTime":2656.143,"body":"and this is his grandfather, Ishar,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2657.85,"endTime":2661.51,"body":"and Sparsh had noticed"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2657.85,"endTime":2661.51,"body":"there was always a hush"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2661.51,"endTime":2665.23,"body":"every time partition or"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2661.51,"endTime":2665.23,"body":"Pakistan was mentioned,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2665.23,"endTime":2667.72,"body":"and he wanted to understand"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2665.23,"endTime":2667.72,"body":"what that was about,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2667.72,"endTime":2671.17,"body":"so interviewed his grandfather,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2671.17,"endTime":2673.39,"body":"who told him that his"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2671.17,"endTime":2673.39,"body":"family were actually from"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2673.39,"endTime":2676.57,"body":"a place in Pakistan called"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2673.39,"endTime":2676.57,"body":"Bela, in the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2676.57,"endTime":2679.18,"body":"and Sparsh said, I want to go back there,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2679.18,"endTime":2680.02,"body":"and his grandfather said,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2680.02,"endTime":2681.01,"body":"you absolutely can't,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2681.01,"endTime":2682.12,"body":"you're Hindu, they'll kill you,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2682.12,"endTime":2683.47,"body":"he was terrified for him,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2683.47,"endTime":2685.6,"body":"his parents said don't go back."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2685.6,"endTime":2687.16,"body":"But he did go back,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2687.16,"endTime":2690.94,"body":"and this is a clip of him."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2690.94,"endTime":2694.69,"body":"He found the Muslim family"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2694.69,"endTime":2699.4,"body":"that actually saved his"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2694.69,"endTime":2699.4,"body":"Hindu grandfather's life,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2699.4,"endTime":2703.12,"body":"and this is where we pick up the story."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2703.12,"endTime":2705.97,"body":"When Sparsh was standing in Bela,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2705.97,"endTime":2709.06,"body":"he was confronting both the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2705.97,"endTime":2709.06,"body":"anguish his grandfather felt"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2709.06,"endTime":2710.26,"body":"at leaving,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2710.26,"endTime":2712.06,"body":"as well as nostalgia"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2712.06,"endTime":2715.033,"body":"for the village Ishar still calls home."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2718.362,"endTime":2719.195,"body":"- [Sparsh] I told them"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2719.195,"endTime":2721.09,"body":"that you guys literally saved our lives,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2721.09,"endTime":2724.33,"body":"I wouldn't be here if it"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2721.09,"endTime":2724.33,"body":"wasn't for your father."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2724.33,"endTime":2726.4,"body":"- [Kavita] Now, the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2724.33,"endTime":2726.4,"body":"grandson and great-grandson"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2726.4,"endTime":2728.65,"body":"of the man who saved Ishar,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2728.65,"endTime":2731.14,"body":"walk with Sparsh through the village."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2731.14,"endTime":2733.06,"body":"They had something to show him."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2733.06,"endTime":2734.95,"body":"Friend Sam was behind."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2734.95,"endTime":2737.14,"body":"- [Sam] And we walk round this big field,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2737.14,"endTime":2739.96,"body":"past a couple of chickens,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2737.14,"endTime":2739.96,"body":"and I think a partridge,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2739.96,"endTime":2741.043,"body":"and Sparsh just says,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2741.88,"endTime":2742.713,"body":"turn on your camera"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2742.713,"endTime":2745.39,"body":"'cause I want to be able to"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2742.713,"endTime":2745.39,"body":"send this to my grandfather."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2749.77,"endTime":2750.91,"body":"- [Kavita] In the footage,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2750.91,"endTime":2755.41,"body":"three men walk in single"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2750.91,"endTime":2755.41,"body":"file along a dusty path."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2755.41,"endTime":2757.21,"body":"They reach a courtyard."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2757.21,"endTime":2759.67,"body":"A building stands at its edge."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2759.67,"endTime":2762.19,"body":"And then the grandson says to Sparsh."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2762.19,"endTime":2763.27,"body":"- [Sparsh] This was the mosque"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2763.27,"endTime":2766.273,"body":"that your grandfather"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2763.27,"endTime":2766.273,"body":"used to live next to."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2767.23,"endTime":2769.84,"body":"- [Kavita] He points to a mud-brick house,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2769.84,"endTime":2773.743,"body":"saying, this is the land"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2769.84,"endTime":2773.743,"body":"where your grandfather lived."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2777.94,"endTime":2781.003,"body":"Sparsh walks towards the"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2777.94,"endTime":2781.003,"body":"center of the courtyard."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2781.87,"endTime":2783.04,"body":"- [Sam] And he kissed the ground,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2783.04,"endTime":2783.91,"body":"got down on the leaves,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2783.91,"endTime":2786.64,"body":"and was kissing the ground"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2783.91,"endTime":2786.64,"body":"for probably a minute."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2786.64,"endTime":2788.803,"body":"- [Kavita] The small group falls silent."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2793.54,"endTime":2794.84,"body":"- [Sparsh] I mean, it was,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2798.894,"endTime":2800.41,"body":"it was really emotional,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2800.41,"endTime":2803.413,"body":"I just broke down in tears."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2804.61,"endTime":2805.9,"body":"It was just the weight of that moment,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2805.9,"endTime":2809.53,"body":"I felt like I'd finally made it here."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2809.53,"endTime":2812.71,"body":"It's not something I ever"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2809.53,"endTime":2812.71,"body":"expected would be possible"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2812.71,"endTime":2813.73,"body":"in my lifetime,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2813.73,"endTime":2816.22,"body":"given the way these countries are."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2816.22,"endTime":2819.61,"body":"- [Kavita] Sparsh stands"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2816.22,"endTime":2819.61,"body":"up from the cracked earth,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2819.61,"endTime":2821.74,"body":"and then two grandsons,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2821.74,"endTime":2824.26,"body":"one Hindu, one Muslim,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2824.26,"endTime":2827.083,"body":"embrace for a long time."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2832.561,"endTime":2835.51,"body":"(Indian string music)"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2835.51,"endTime":2837.04,"body":"- [Sparsh] I think, before that,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2837.04,"endTime":2839.86,"body":"I felt angry a lot,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2839.86,"endTime":2841.24,"body":"about having lost something."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2841.24,"endTime":2845.74,"body":"I think a lot of that fire"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2841.24,"endTime":2845.74,"body":"died down after that day,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2845.74,"endTime":2847.3,"body":"I feel like I was able"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2845.74,"endTime":2847.3,"body":"to let go, a little bit,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2847.3,"endTime":2849.883,"body":"of that intergenerational trauma."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2851.05,"endTime":2854.17,"body":"Because I think if you've"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2851.05,"endTime":2854.17,"body":"grown up being told"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2854.17,"endTime":2856.99,"body":"this was our land, this"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2854.17,"endTime":2856.99,"body":"is where we came from,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2856.99,"endTime":2859.39,"body":"and we were never able to go back,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2859.39,"endTime":2862.12,"body":"that's not the story I"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2859.39,"endTime":2862.12,"body":"will tell my children,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2862.12,"endTime":2863.02,"body":"it will be,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2863.02,"endTime":2864.1,"body":"ah yeah, we lost this land,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2864.1,"endTime":2865.537,"body":"but then we went back,"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2865.537,"endTime":2868.063,"body":"so it's like that loop is now complete."},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2869.08,"endTime":2872.08,"body":"- [Kavita] That night, Sparsh"},{"speaker":"It makes sense","startTime":2869.08,"endTime":2872.08,"body":"WhatsApped his grandfather."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2873.767,"endTime":2875.987,"body":"\"I'm proud of you,\" he said,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2875.987,"endTime":2878.207,"body":"\"you have touched my motherland,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2878.207,"endTime":2880.447,"body":"\"which I could not explain in words.\""},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2882.01,"endTime":2884.05,"body":"- And he, like Raj,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2884.05,"endTime":2889.05,"body":"picked up some stones from"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2884.05,"endTime":2889.05,"body":"his grandfather's homeland,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2889.27,"endTime":2893.5,"body":"and he gave one to his grandfather, Ishar,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2893.5,"endTime":2895.27,"body":"he keeps one beside his bed,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2895.27,"endTime":2898.69,"body":"and he made the rest into a necklace,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2898.69,"endTime":2900.61,"body":"one that he wears every day,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2900.61,"endTime":2902.8,"body":"he wants to wear it for"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2900.61,"endTime":2902.8,"body":"the rest of his days,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2902.8,"endTime":2904.15,"body":"and will pass it on,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2904.15,"endTime":2907.423,"body":"and another, he gave to his grandfather."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2912.07,"endTime":2917.07,"body":"So these are some of the"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2912.07,"endTime":2917.07,"body":"stories that I collected."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2917.56,"endTime":2920.65,"body":"In England, learning about partition,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2920.65,"endTime":2922.18,"body":"and even empire"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2922.18,"endTime":2925.36,"body":"is not part of the national curriculum."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2925.36,"endTime":2927.4,"body":"In Wales, from September,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2927.4,"endTime":2930.97,"body":"Black, Asian, and minority"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2927.4,"endTime":2930.97,"body":"ethnic histories are compulsory,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2930.97,"endTime":2931.81,"body":"but it's still not clear"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2931.81,"endTime":2934.753,"body":"what parts of colonial"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2931.81,"endTime":2934.753,"body":"history will be taught."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2935.83,"endTime":2940.15,"body":"Yet it could not be a more British story,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2940.15,"endTime":2942.94,"body":"one that everyone should know about."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2942.94,"endTime":2945.4,"body":"That's because it was a British border"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2945.4,"endTime":2948.43,"body":"drawn to divide British India"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2948.43,"endTime":2952.51,"body":"as the British Empire"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2948.43,"endTime":2952.51,"body":"started to be dismantled."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2952.51,"endTime":2954.91,"body":"Subjects of the Raj came to Britain,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2954.91,"endTime":2956.56,"body":"and are its citizens,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2956.56,"endTime":2960.643,"body":"and multiple generations live"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2956.56,"endTime":2960.643,"body":"here in their millions today."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2961.81,"endTime":2964.12,"body":"Since the 70th anniversary in 2017,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2964.12,"endTime":2965.98,"body":"there has been an awakening,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2965.98,"endTime":2967.09,"body":"with the younger generation"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2967.09,"endTime":2970.45,"body":"coming to terms with what"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2967.09,"endTime":2970.45,"body":"the word partition means,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2970.45,"endTime":2972.583,"body":"and how it relates to their family."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2973.42,"endTime":2976.15,"body":"There is a hunger to know their history"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2976.15,"endTime":2979.66,"body":"from before their ancestors"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2976.15,"endTime":2979.66,"body":"landed in Britain,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2979.66,"endTime":2982.0,"body":"and I think being part of the diaspora,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2982.0,"endTime":2983.44,"body":"where your tie to Britain"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2983.44,"endTime":2985.9,"body":"may be one, two, or perhaps"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2983.44,"endTime":2985.9,"body":"even three generations"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2985.9,"endTime":2988.21,"body":"can feel fragile."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2988.21,"endTime":2991.24,"body":"Knowing your long history matters."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2991.24,"endTime":2993.16,"body":"And in homes across Britain,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2993.16,"endTime":2996.97,"body":"some young people have turned detectives,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2996.97,"endTime":3000.45,"body":"as this is not a history"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":2996.97,"endTime":3000.45,"body":"they were taught at school."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3000.45,"endTime":3001.92,"body":"They're reading about it,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3001.92,"endTime":3003.9,"body":"trying to understand their past"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3003.9,"endTime":3005.67,"body":"through interviews with family members,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3005.67,"endTime":3006.84,"body":"searching the archives,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3006.84,"endTime":3009.54,"body":"or even doing DNA tests."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3009.54,"endTime":3010.38,"body":"And living in Britain,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3010.38,"endTime":3012.66,"body":"they're used to having"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3010.38,"endTime":3012.66,"body":"multiple identities,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3012.66,"endTime":3015.06,"body":"be it British or Asian,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3015.06,"endTime":3016.71,"body":"a region from the Indian Subcontinent"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3016.71,"endTime":3018.48,"body":"their family originated from,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3018.48,"endTime":3019.95,"body":"the place in Britain they grew up,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3019.95,"endTime":3021.9,"body":"that's just for starters,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3021.9,"endTime":3024.3,"body":"and their investigations"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3021.9,"endTime":3024.3,"body":"may lead to a discovery"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3024.3,"endTime":3028.77,"body":"that their family's journey"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3024.3,"endTime":3028.77,"body":"began across a border."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3028.77,"endTime":3032.37,"body":"And accommodating that into their identity"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3032.37,"endTime":3034.74,"body":"can perhaps be easier in Britain"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3034.74,"endTime":3036.84,"body":"than on the Indian Subcontinent,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3036.84,"endTime":3040.443,"body":"where state narratives"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3036.84,"endTime":3040.443,"body":"themselves can be partitioned."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3042.93,"endTime":3046.02,"body":"When I was researching the"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3042.93,"endTime":3046.02,"body":"\"Partition Voices\" project,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3046.02,"endTime":3048.45,"body":"I couldn't find these stories"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3046.02,"endTime":3048.45,"body":"of the lived experience"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3048.45,"endTime":3050.1,"body":"in the archives."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3050.1,"endTime":3051.45,"body":"All my testimonies"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3051.45,"endTime":3053.82,"body":"are now with the British"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3051.45,"endTime":3053.82,"body":"Library Sound Archive,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3053.82,"endTime":3055.44,"body":"so they can be studied,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3055.44,"endTime":3059.19,"body":"alongside the more formal"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3055.44,"endTime":3059.19,"body":"documents of the time."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3059.19,"endTime":3060.15,"body":"This lived experience"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3060.15,"endTime":3063.12,"body":"is an important aspect of the history."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3063.12,"endTime":3066.54,"body":"Of course, after 70 years, memories fade,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3066.54,"endTime":3068.79,"body":"but even with all the imperfections,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3068.79,"endTime":3071.7,"body":"it's essential these"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3068.79,"endTime":3071.7,"body":"stories are preserved,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3071.7,"endTime":3075.51,"body":"of the individuals who were"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3071.7,"endTime":3075.51,"body":"part of the largest migration"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3075.51,"endTime":3077.1,"body":"in human history,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3077.1,"endTime":3080.43,"body":"because if you listen"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3077.1,"endTime":3080.43,"body":"closely to these testimonies,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3080.43,"endTime":3082.26,"body":"they tell you something very different"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3082.26,"endTime":3085.74,"body":"from the official evidence of the time,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3085.74,"endTime":3087.78,"body":"which regularly documented"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3087.78,"endTime":3091.14,"body":"the communal violence and division,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3091.14,"endTime":3093.72,"body":"it also speaks, as we've heard,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3093.72,"endTime":3096.57,"body":"to the intimacy of the communities,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3096.57,"endTime":3099.99,"body":"where people lived largely"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3096.57,"endTime":3099.99,"body":"happily, side by side,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3099.99,"endTime":3101.82,"body":"in undivided India,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3101.82,"endTime":3105.72,"body":"where friendships between"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3101.82,"endTime":3105.72,"body":"religions were profound,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3105.72,"endTime":3107.01,"body":"where a woman of one faith"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3107.01,"endTime":3109.383,"body":"suckled the motherless"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3107.01,"endTime":3109.383,"body":"children of another,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3110.37,"endTime":3113.85,"body":"where friends and"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3110.37,"endTime":3113.85,"body":"strangers transcended hate"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3113.85,"endTime":3115.113,"body":"to save the other."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3116.4,"endTime":3118.5,"body":"What people wanted"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3116.4,"endTime":3118.5,"body":"remembered all these years on"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3118.5,"endTime":3120.15,"body":"was that too,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3120.15,"endTime":3122.763,"body":"not just the horrors and the violence."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3123.81,"endTime":3125.34,"body":"A manmade border"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3125.34,"endTime":3130.26,"body":"could not erase those"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3125.34,"endTime":3130.26,"body":"emotions, memories, friendships"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3130.26,"endTime":3131.943,"body":"in all that time."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3132.84,"endTime":3134.46,"body":"And that has sustained,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3134.46,"endTime":3138.39,"body":"along with a deep"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3134.46,"endTime":3138.39,"body":"attachment to the land left,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3138.39,"endTime":3141.78,"body":"and it muddies these binary"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3138.39,"endTime":3141.78,"body":"narratives, then and now,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3141.78,"endTime":3143.94,"body":"particularly in political discourse"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3143.94,"endTime":3145.383,"body":"on the Indian Subcontinent."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3146.61,"endTime":3149.4,"body":"But it also speaks to the"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3146.61,"endTime":3149.4,"body":"complexity of the experience"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3149.4,"endTime":3153.153,"body":"across gender, class, caste,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3149.4,"endTime":3153.153,"body":"religion, and geography."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3154.35,"endTime":3157.56,"body":"I embarked on the collection"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3154.35,"endTime":3157.56,"body":"of testimonies as a journalist,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3157.56,"endTime":3160.32,"body":"however, the methods, and"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3157.56,"endTime":3160.32,"body":"gathering of the accounts"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3160.32,"endTime":3162.24,"body":"and questioning is similar."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3162.24,"endTime":3164.4,"body":"I tried to put my interviewees at ease,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3164.4,"endTime":3167.07,"body":"I would interview them in their home,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3167.07,"endTime":3169.5,"body":"perhaps in their favorite chair,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3169.5,"endTime":3172.293,"body":"they would be surrounded"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3169.5,"endTime":3172.293,"body":"by family members,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3173.13,"endTime":3175.77,"body":"and these are traumatic memories,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3175.77,"endTime":3177.06,"body":"and they have agreed to them,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3180.81,"body":"and I always felt a huge"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3180.81,"body":"duty of care to them."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3180.81,"endTime":3182.16,"body":"And there were times in the room"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3182.16,"endTime":3183.54,"body":"where there were many emotions,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3183.54,"endTime":3185.49,"body":"not just the person speaking,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3185.49,"endTime":3188.52,"body":"who was recounting these"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3185.49,"endTime":3188.52,"body":"memories for the first time,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3188.52,"endTime":3189.66,"body":"but perhaps family members"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3189.66,"endTime":3191.943,"body":"who were hearing this"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3189.66,"endTime":3191.943,"body":"for the first time too."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3192.93,"endTime":3194.28,"body":"And sometimes, it was very clear"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3194.28,"endTime":3197.25,"body":"that the interviewee would be very moved,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3197.25,"endTime":3200.55,"body":"and I would ask them"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3197.25,"endTime":3200.55,"body":"if they wanted to stop,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3200.55,"endTime":3201.78,"body":"but I also asked them"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3201.78,"endTime":3203.97,"body":"if they still wanted to continue,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3203.97,"endTime":3208.83,"body":"I wanted to give them agency"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3203.97,"endTime":3208.83,"body":"over their very personal story."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3208.83,"endTime":3211.274,"body":"If they wanted to refuse,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3211.274,"endTime":3214.77,"body":"they did not have to carry on."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3214.77,"endTime":3216.96,"body":"But towards the end of their days,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3216.96,"endTime":3218.52,"body":"not one refused,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3218.52,"endTime":3222.243,"body":"they wanted their story"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3218.52,"endTime":3222.243,"body":"recorded, heard, and respected."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3223.5,"endTime":3224.73,"body":"People may ask"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3224.73,"endTime":3227.46,"body":"what if it's not accurate, or is biased?"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3227.46,"endTime":3231.63,"body":"But there is bias in most"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3227.46,"endTime":3231.63,"body":"forms of primary evidence."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3231.63,"endTime":3235.14,"body":"How people remember the past"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3231.63,"endTime":3235.14,"body":"70 years on is important,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3235.14,"endTime":3238.02,"body":"and it should be considered"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3235.14,"endTime":3238.02,"body":"from that perspective."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3238.02,"endTime":3240.9,"body":"My interviewees had surprising clarity"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3240.9,"endTime":3244.74,"body":"about the detail of"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3240.9,"endTime":3244.74,"body":"events from 70 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3244.74,"endTime":3247.14,"body":"and their story should be listened to,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3247.14,"endTime":3249.3,"body":"they are the statistics,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3249.3,"endTime":3252.42,"body":"their lived experience"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3249.3,"endTime":3252.42,"body":"should not be denied a place"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3252.42,"endTime":3254.103,"body":"in the historical archive."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3255.33,"endTime":3257.52,"body":"There are, as we discussed, gaps,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3257.52,"endTime":3259.74,"body":"but I did also speak to"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3257.52,"endTime":3259.74,"body":"perpetrators of violence"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3259.74,"endTime":3260.573,"body":"on all sides,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3260.573,"endTime":3261.99,"body":"and bystanders,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3261.99,"endTime":3263.13,"body":"but these stories, again,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3263.13,"endTime":3264.573,"body":"were not easy to tease out."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3266.07,"endTime":3269.64,"body":"But the testimonies also"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3266.07,"endTime":3269.64,"body":"serve another purpose too."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3269.64,"endTime":3271.41,"body":"Historical events like partition"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3271.41,"endTime":3272.85,"body":"endure down the generations"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3272.85,"endTime":3275.46,"body":"in both good and bad ways."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3275.46,"endTime":3277.08,"body":"The recordings, 70 years on,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3277.08,"endTime":3279.75,"body":"capture that in all its complexity,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3279.75,"endTime":3284.25,"body":"that political decisions"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3279.75,"endTime":3284.25,"body":"taken many, many years ago"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3284.25,"endTime":3288.93,"body":"still affect people and"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3284.25,"endTime":3288.93,"body":"generations for decades."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3288.93,"endTime":3290.79,"body":"And historical events can be taken over"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3290.79,"endTime":3292.08,"body":"by national narratives,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3292.08,"endTime":3295.08,"body":"as we've seen particularly"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3292.08,"endTime":3295.08,"body":"on the Indian Subcontinent,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3295.08,"endTime":3296.67,"body":"to suit the politics of the day"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3296.67,"endTime":3298.803,"body":"and foster further division,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3299.64,"endTime":3301.26,"body":"but these stories counter that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3301.26,"endTime":3302.46,"body":"and recall a time"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3302.46,"endTime":3305.28,"body":"when there were Muslims"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3302.46,"endTime":3305.28,"body":"living in Amritsar,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3305.28,"endTime":3307.8,"body":"and Hindus in Lahore,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3307.8,"endTime":3309.51,"body":"and that there was collective loss"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3309.51,"endTime":3312.543,"body":"for everyone on the Indian Subcontinent."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3314.04,"endTime":3316.44,"body":"And we in Britain are living in a moment,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3316.44,"endTime":3317.97,"body":"in our own country,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3317.97,"endTime":3320.04,"body":"where families in Britain"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3320.04,"endTime":3323.463,"body":"are coming to terms and"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3320.04,"endTime":3323.463,"body":"reckoning with their own past."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3324.3,"endTime":3326.76,"body":"This is British history,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3326.76,"endTime":3328.62,"body":"every single one of us"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3328.62,"endTime":3331.983,"body":"are inheritors of empire and partition,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3333.54,"endTime":3336.33,"body":"and each generation will interpret that."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3336.33,"endTime":3338.01,"body":"75 years on,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3338.01,"endTime":3339.6,"body":"British South Asian families,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3339.6,"endTime":3340.68,"body":"and we as a nation,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3340.68,"endTime":3343.98,"body":"are only just coming to terms with that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3343.98,"endTime":3346.02,"body":"we're just at the start,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3346.02,"endTime":3347.88,"body":"and within families, and as a country,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3347.88,"endTime":3352.77,"body":"we are all working out what"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3347.88,"endTime":3352.77,"body":"we remember, what we forget,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3352.77,"endTime":3354.633,"body":"and what we keep our silence over."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3355.5,"endTime":3356.644,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3356.644,"endTime":3359.644,"body":"(audience applauds)"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3363.927,"endTime":3365.563,"body":"- [Questioner] Thank you very much,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3365.563,"endTime":3368.49,"body":"I entirely agree with"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3365.563,"endTime":3368.49,"body":"everything you've said."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3368.49,"endTime":3370.11,"body":"Can I just say that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3371.65,"endTime":3373.89,"body":"I personally, as a young boy,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3373.89,"endTime":3377.82,"body":"have experienced what you've just said,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3377.82,"endTime":3380.37,"body":"the Calcutta Riots in '46,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3380.37,"endTime":3384.043,"body":"and also going there the"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3380.37,"endTime":3384.043,"body":"Punjab to Pakistan, et cetera,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3385.381,"endTime":3387.081,"body":"however I'm a British citizen now."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3388.47,"endTime":3389.553,"body":"The thing is,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3390.93,"endTime":3392.43,"body":"one point is that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3392.43,"endTime":3394.95,"body":"despite all that was going on,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3394.95,"endTime":3398.04,"body":"before Lord Mountbatten arrived,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3398.04,"endTime":3403.04,"body":"Lord Wavell was trying"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3398.04,"endTime":3403.04,"body":"to get a united India,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3403.71,"endTime":3406.68,"body":"and at the last moment,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3406.68,"endTime":3408.873,"body":"he introduced the interim government,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3409.86,"endTime":3413.31,"body":"which, unfortunately, broke up,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3413.31,"endTime":3417.45,"body":"but that was a very heroic"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3413.31,"endTime":3417.45,"body":"attempt on his part,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3417.45,"endTime":3419.52,"body":"to try and keep the thing together."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3419.52,"endTime":3424.31,"body":"And also, I don't know what"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3419.52,"endTime":3424.31,"body":"you think is the way forward,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3424.31,"endTime":3427.08,"body":"whether the two countries"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3427.08,"endTime":3431.07,"body":"will eventually come closer"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3427.08,"endTime":3431.07,"body":"together in the years to come?"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3432.72,"endTime":3433.893,"body":"- Thank you for coming,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3435.87,"endTime":3439.023,"body":"particularly as you"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3435.87,"endTime":3439.023,"body":"lived through that time."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3440.34,"endTime":3441.42,"body":"I think that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3441.42,"endTime":3443.46,"body":"certainly for India and Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3443.46,"endTime":3447.21,"body":"the only way forward"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3443.46,"endTime":3447.21,"body":"and for reconciliation"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3447.21,"endTime":3452.04,"body":"is for acknowledgement that"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3447.21,"endTime":3452.04,"body":"there was collective loss,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3452.04,"endTime":3453.39,"body":"that all sides suffered,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3453.39,"endTime":3457.533,"body":"that not one side owns a victim narrative,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3459.308,"endTime":3462.87,"body":"and I think that we're very"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3459.308,"endTime":3462.87,"body":"far from that at the moment."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3462.87,"endTime":3464.58,"body":"If you listen to the some of the language"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3464.58,"endTime":3466.53,"body":"and the politics of today,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3466.53,"endTime":3469.44,"body":"the demonization of the other,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3469.44,"endTime":3472.98,"body":"that is very recognizable"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3469.44,"endTime":3472.98,"body":"from many decades ago,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3472.98,"endTime":3475.473,"body":"and sends a chill down many people."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3476.7,"endTime":3479.4,"body":"And so things are so bad,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3479.4,"endTime":3480.69,"body":"things are so far apart,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3480.69,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"you can't even visit the other country"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3486.363,"body":"if you're a citizen of India or Pakistan,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3487.41,"endTime":3490.44,"body":"so think reconciliation is so far off."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3490.44,"endTime":3492.84,"body":"In India, we had Partition Horrors Day,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3492.84,"endTime":3495.3,"body":"which, again, is insinuating"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3495.3,"endTime":3498.15,"body":"that the horrors happened on one side;"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3498.15,"endTime":3499.23,"body":"it wasn't one side."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3499.23,"endTime":3500.64,"body":"And so I think that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3500.64,"endTime":3502.71,"body":"for India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3502.71,"endTime":3507.12,"body":"there has to be that acknowledgement"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3502.71,"endTime":3507.12,"body":"that everyone suffered,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3507.12,"endTime":3509.25,"body":"and there was loss that"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3507.12,"endTime":3509.25,"body":"persists to this day."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3509.25,"endTime":3511.59,"body":"But I would say that I have optimism"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3511.59,"endTime":3513.27,"body":"with the third generation,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3513.27,"endTime":3515.37,"body":"who are asking questions,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3515.37,"endTime":3519.66,"body":"who are challenging these"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3515.37,"endTime":3519.66,"body":"very narrow narratives"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3519.66,"endTime":3521.79,"body":"that they're hearing"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3519.66,"endTime":3521.79,"body":"from their governments,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3521.79,"endTime":3523.74,"body":"and actually, social"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3521.79,"endTime":3523.74,"body":"media is changing things,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3523.74,"endTime":3527.19,"body":"people can connect with the other side,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3527.19,"endTime":3528.9,"body":"and realize, actually,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3528.9,"endTime":3532.08,"body":"these young people are not"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3528.9,"endTime":3532.08,"body":"that different from me."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3532.08,"endTime":3534.78,"body":"And so I think, with"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3532.08,"endTime":3534.78,"body":"the younger generation,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3534.78,"endTime":3536.163,"body":"perhaps things will change."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3537.74,"endTime":3539.43,"body":"- [Questioner] I was just"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3537.74,"endTime":3539.43,"body":"wondering, do you think,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3539.43,"endTime":3542.67,"body":"with regard to the butchery"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3542.67,"endTime":3545.877,"body":"that went on during the"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3542.67,"endTime":3545.877,"body":"partition of Punjab,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3545.877,"endTime":3550.877,"body":"the fact that Punjab had"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3545.877,"endTime":3550.877,"body":"been the big recruiting area"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3550.89,"endTime":3551.94,"body":"for the British Empire,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3551.94,"endTime":3553.05,"body":"and that's where the British"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3553.05,"endTime":3558.05,"body":"had recruited their imperial forces from,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3558.447,"endTime":3560.94,"body":"and the fact there were so many people"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3560.94,"endTime":3562.35,"body":"from a military background"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3562.35,"endTime":3564.318,"body":"milling about in the Punjab,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3564.318,"endTime":3565.59,"body":"do you think that may have been a factor"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3565.59,"endTime":3570.3,"body":"in the excessive violence that took place?"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3570.3,"endTime":3572.37,"body":"- I think that there is an argument that,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3572.37,"endTime":3574.05,"body":"because people who were demobbed"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3574.05,"endTime":3578.31,"body":"had access to weaponry, certainly,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3578.31,"endTime":3581.64,"body":"but sometimes, the rape"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3578.31,"endTime":3581.64,"body":"and abduction of women"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3581.64,"endTime":3583.47,"body":"had nothing to do with weaponry."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3583.47,"endTime":3586.71,"body":"I think that the butchery in Punjab"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3586.71,"endTime":3590.4,"body":"was almost because people"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3586.71,"endTime":3590.4,"body":"lived so closely together,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3590.4,"endTime":3592.23,"body":"it was civil war,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3592.23,"endTime":3595.89,"body":"they cared, they loved each other deeply,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3595.89,"endTime":3598.89,"body":"and I think that that violence,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3598.89,"endTime":3599.972,"body":"the intensity of it,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3599.972,"endTime":3603.453,"body":"it's almost because they were so close."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3606.9,"endTime":3608.19,"body":"I think it's a factor,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3608.19,"endTime":3610.8,"body":"but I think it's not the only reason."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3610.8,"endTime":3612.03,"body":"- Ladies and gentleman,"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3612.03,"endTime":3615.841,"body":"please join me once again"},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3612.03,"endTime":3615.841,"body":"thanking Kavita Puri."},{"speaker":"Ishar responded","startTime":3615.841,"endTime":3618.841,"body":"(audience applauds)"}]}