{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":6.57,"endTime":9.09,"body":"- You've woken up to give your young baby"},{"startTime":9.09,"endTime":10.683,"body":"her middle of the night feed,"},{"startTime":11.7,"endTime":13.173,"body":"but something's not right."},{"startTime":14.31,"endTime":17.1,"body":"Your baby's breathing seems labored"},{"startTime":17.1,"endTime":20.007,"body":"and she's not responding to you."},{"startTime":20.007,"endTime":23.76,"body":"You change her and you"},{"startTime":20.007,"endTime":23.76,"body":"try and give her a feed,"},{"startTime":23.76,"endTime":25.323,"body":"but she's still not responding."},{"startTime":26.61,"endTime":28.77,"body":"You call an ambulance"},{"startTime":28.77,"endTime":30.693,"body":"and you are both taken to hospital."},{"startTime":32.37,"endTime":34.87,"body":"As you arrive there's a flurry of activity"},{"startTime":35.88,"endTime":39.513,"body":"and you are told your baby is very unwell."},{"startTime":40.86,"endTime":44.013,"body":"At first, the doctors and"},{"startTime":40.86,"endTime":44.013,"body":"nurses appear sympathetic,"},{"startTime":44.88,"endTime":47.703,"body":"but over time their tone becomes harsher."},{"startTime":49.11,"endTime":51.45,"body":"There are a lot of whispered conversations"},{"startTime":51.45,"endTime":53.073,"body":"just out of your earshot."},{"startTime":54.51,"endTime":57.243,"body":"Eventually a senior doctor"},{"startTime":54.51,"endTime":57.243,"body":"comes to speak with you."},{"startTime":58.32,"endTime":61.62,"body":"Not only is your baby"},{"startTime":58.32,"endTime":61.62,"body":"in a critical condition,"},{"startTime":61.62,"endTime":63.69,"body":"but the medical staff have found evidence"},{"startTime":63.69,"endTime":67.353,"body":"of what appeared to be"},{"startTime":63.69,"endTime":67.353,"body":"non-accidental injuries."},{"startTime":69.21,"endTime":71.85,"body":"The doctor says it's early days"},{"startTime":71.85,"endTime":74.613,"body":"and there are a lot more"},{"startTime":71.85,"endTime":74.613,"body":"tests to to be done,"},{"startTime":75.48,"endTime":77.37,"body":"but they're asking you"},{"startTime":77.37,"endTime":79.383,"body":"whether you've done anything to her."},{"startTime":82.14,"endTime":84.0,"body":"How could you have done?"},{"startTime":84.0,"endTime":86.433,"body":"Your baby is much loved and wanted,"},{"startTime":87.45,"endTime":89.64,"body":"you wouldn't dream of harming her,"},{"startTime":89.64,"endTime":92.223,"body":"nor could you imagine that"},{"startTime":89.64,"endTime":92.223,"body":"anyone else would do so."},{"startTime":93.66,"endTime":95.373,"body":"But the questions continue."},{"startTime":96.21,"endTime":98.94,"body":"Have you left her with someone else?"},{"startTime":98.94,"endTime":100.443,"body":"Has there been an accident?"},{"startTime":101.73,"endTime":106.08,"body":"The doctors become police"},{"startTime":101.73,"endTime":106.08,"body":"officers and social workers,"},{"startTime":106.08,"endTime":108.51,"body":"but the questions continue."},{"startTime":108.51,"endTime":109.983,"body":"You have no answers."},{"startTime":111.03,"endTime":116.03,"body":"Sleep deprived, frightened"},{"startTime":111.03,"endTime":116.03,"body":"for your baby and confused."},{"startTime":116.28,"endTime":118.5,"body":"The next you know the"},{"startTime":116.28,"endTime":118.5,"body":"social worker tells you"},{"startTime":118.5,"endTime":120.57,"body":"there's a court hearing tomorrow"},{"startTime":120.57,"endTime":122.763,"body":"and you need to find yourself a solicitor."},{"startTime":123.72,"endTime":126.129,"body":"The local authority is seeking orders"},{"startTime":126.129,"endTime":130.92,"body":"to remove your baby from"},{"startTime":126.129,"endTime":130.92,"body":"you and her older brother,"},{"startTime":130.92,"endTime":133.563,"body":"who's currently perfectly well at home."},{"startTime":135.21,"endTime":136.38,"body":"Well good evening,"},{"startTime":136.38,"endTime":138.603,"body":"and welcome to the family justice system."},{"startTime":140.07,"endTime":143.4,"body":"That's the system that"},{"startTime":140.07,"endTime":143.4,"body":"decides what happens next."},{"startTime":143.4,"endTime":147.15,"body":"Indeed decides whether your"},{"startTime":143.4,"endTime":147.15,"body":"children remain in your care"},{"startTime":147.15,"endTime":149.49,"body":"or are to be separated from you,"},{"startTime":149.49,"endTime":151.35,"body":"perhaps permanently."},{"startTime":151.35,"endTime":153.87,"body":"Indeed, whether they're to be adopted"},{"startTime":153.87,"endTime":155.343,"body":"away from your family."},{"startTime":156.45,"endTime":158.43,"body":"And that is in many ways"},{"startTime":158.43,"endTime":160.833,"body":"the subject of this evening's lecture."},{"startTime":162.6,"endTime":166.83,"body":"If I ask an audience such as yourselves,"},{"startTime":166.83,"endTime":169.35,"body":"which of the following three scenarios"},{"startTime":169.35,"endTime":171.87,"body":"you would least want to happen?"},{"startTime":171.87,"endTime":173.913,"body":"I think I could predict the answer."},{"startTime":175.08,"endTime":177.183,"body":"Let me give you the three scenarios."},{"startTime":178.26,"endTime":181.08,"body":"Scenario one is that a business colleague"},{"startTime":181.08,"endTime":184.98,"body":"starts civil court proceedings against you"},{"startTime":184.98,"endTime":186.24,"body":"and as a result of that,"},{"startTime":186.24,"endTime":189.573,"body":"you lose all your money"},{"startTime":186.24,"endTime":189.573,"body":"and become bankrupt."},{"startTime":191.13,"endTime":193.47,"body":"Scenario two is that you are prosecuted"},{"startTime":193.47,"endTime":196.08,"body":"for a serious criminal offense."},{"startTime":196.08,"endTime":197.82,"body":"You are convicted and you are"},{"startTime":197.82,"endTime":200.103,"body":"sentenced to prison for 10 years."},{"startTime":201.75,"endTime":206.64,"body":"Scenario three is that your"},{"startTime":201.75,"endTime":206.64,"body":"much wanted and loved baby"},{"startTime":206.64,"endTime":210.12,"body":"is subject to public"},{"startTime":206.64,"endTime":210.12,"body":"law children proceedings"},{"startTime":210.12,"endTime":214.83,"body":"and is permanently removed"},{"startTime":210.12,"endTime":214.83,"body":"from the care of yourself,"},{"startTime":214.83,"endTime":219.18,"body":"the care of your partner,"},{"startTime":214.83,"endTime":219.18,"body":"the care of your family,"},{"startTime":219.18,"endTime":221.553,"body":"and is adopted into a new family."},{"startTime":222.9,"endTime":225.18,"body":"My bet is that most of you"},{"startTime":225.18,"endTime":230.18,"body":"would prefer scenarios one"},{"startTime":225.18,"endTime":230.18,"body":"and two to scenario three,"},{"startTime":230.46,"endTime":233.1,"body":"however difficult they may be."},{"startTime":233.1,"endTime":236.46,"body":"Again, welcome to the"},{"startTime":233.1,"endTime":236.46,"body":"family justice system"},{"startTime":236.46,"endTime":238.81,"body":"where literally the stakes"},{"startTime":236.46,"endTime":238.81,"body":"could not be higher."},{"startTime":240.18,"endTime":241.83,"body":"And who better to introduce you"},{"startTime":241.83,"endTime":244.17,"body":"to the world of non-accidental injury"},{"startTime":244.17,"endTime":247.02,"body":"within the context of"},{"startTime":244.17,"endTime":247.02,"body":"the family justice system"},{"startTime":247.02,"endTime":250.593,"body":"than two extremely well-known"},{"startTime":247.02,"endTime":250.593,"body":"and experienced professors."},{"startTime":251.79,"endTime":255.57,"body":"Professor Owen Arthurs is"},{"startTime":251.79,"endTime":255.57,"body":"a pediatric radiologist"},{"startTime":255.57,"endTime":257.55,"body":"at Great Ormand Street Hospital"},{"startTime":257.55,"endTime":260.733,"body":"and Professor of Radiology at UCL."},{"startTime":261.78,"endTime":264.69,"body":"He's widely recognized"},{"startTime":261.78,"endTime":264.69,"body":"as one of the world's"},{"startTime":264.69,"endTime":268.32,"body":"leading clinical researchers"},{"startTime":264.69,"endTime":268.32,"body":"in children's imaging"},{"startTime":268.32,"endTime":270.0,"body":"and has led the European Society"},{"startTime":270.0,"endTime":274.353,"body":"for Pediatric Radiology"},{"startTime":270.0,"endTime":274.353,"body":"Research Committee since 2016."},{"startTime":276.06,"endTime":279.15,"body":"Owen is also co-chair of"},{"startTime":276.06,"endTime":279.15,"body":"the London Regional Group"},{"startTime":279.15,"endTime":281.1,"body":"of the Family Justice Council"},{"startTime":281.1,"endTime":283.2,"body":"and therefore leading the work to ensure"},{"startTime":283.2,"endTime":285.54,"body":"that more experts are prepared to work"},{"startTime":285.54,"endTime":287.553,"body":"within the family justice system."},{"startTime":289.56,"endTime":293.88,"body":"Professor Jo Delahunty KC"},{"startTime":289.56,"endTime":293.88,"body":"is a distinguished silk"},{"startTime":293.88,"endTime":296.94,"body":"practicing from chambers"},{"startTime":293.88,"endTime":296.94,"body":"at 4 Paper Buildings."},{"startTime":296.94,"endTime":299.37,"body":"She was called to the bar in 1986"},{"startTime":299.37,"endTime":302.46,"body":"and took the silk in 2006."},{"startTime":302.46,"endTime":305.43,"body":"She's been a recorder since 2009."},{"startTime":305.43,"endTime":307.08,"body":"She's a bencher of Middle Temple"},{"startTime":307.08,"endTime":309.81,"body":"and was a Professor of Law"},{"startTime":307.08,"endTime":309.81,"body":"here at Gresham College"},{"startTime":309.81,"endTime":312.81,"body":"between 2016 and 2020."},{"startTime":312.81,"endTime":315.57,"body":"She was awarded the Freedom"},{"startTime":312.81,"endTime":315.57,"body":"of the City of London"},{"startTime":315.57,"endTime":318.963,"body":"in 2019 for her contribution to law."},{"startTime":320.07,"endTime":322.2,"body":"Jo specializes in cases involving"},{"startTime":322.2,"endTime":325.2,"body":"the most serious of"},{"startTime":322.2,"endTime":325.2,"body":"child abuse allegations"},{"startTime":325.2,"endTime":328.77,"body":"and has been involved in many"},{"startTime":325.2,"endTime":328.77,"body":"of the most high profile cases"},{"startTime":328.77,"endTime":331.35,"body":"within the family justice system."},{"startTime":331.35,"endTime":334.11,"body":"She also acted on behalf"},{"startTime":331.35,"endTime":334.11,"body":"of the 77 families"},{"startTime":334.11,"endTime":335.913,"body":"in the Hillsborough inquests."},{"startTime":337.38,"endTime":339.93,"body":"These are two fascinating speakers"},{"startTime":339.93,"endTime":341.73,"body":"and a fascinating subject,"},{"startTime":341.73,"endTime":344.442,"body":"and I'm very much looking"},{"startTime":341.73,"endTime":344.442,"body":"forward to their talk."},{"startTime":344.442,"endTime":347.43,"body":"Owen, Jo, over to you."},{"startTime":347.43,"endTime":348.951,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":347.43,"endTime":348.951,"body":"- Thank you very much."},{"startTime":348.951,"endTime":350.927,"body":"(crowd applauding)"},{"startTime":350.927,"endTime":352.95,"body":"- Alright, ladies and gentlemen,"},{"startTime":352.95,"endTime":354.42,"body":"both in person and online,"},{"startTime":354.42,"endTime":356.04,"body":"there's a lot to get through."},{"startTime":356.04,"endTime":358.26,"body":"We've probably got more"},{"startTime":356.04,"endTime":358.26,"body":"slides than we can cover."},{"startTime":358.26,"endTime":360.33,"body":"There are going to be notes"},{"startTime":358.26,"endTime":360.33,"body":"accompanying the lecture,"},{"startTime":360.33,"endTime":362.7,"body":"but they are purely discussion points"},{"startTime":362.7,"endTime":364.8,"body":"because the value of tonight is, we think,"},{"startTime":364.8,"endTime":366.749,"body":"it's one of the first public opportunities"},{"startTime":366.749,"endTime":369.447,"body":"for the experts, the medical experts,"},{"startTime":369.447,"endTime":371.67,"body":"and the cross-examining"},{"startTime":369.447,"endTime":371.67,"body":"lawyer to actually have"},{"startTime":371.67,"endTime":375.93,"body":"an honest conversation about"},{"startTime":371.67,"endTime":375.93,"body":"why we do the jobs we do,"},{"startTime":375.93,"endTime":378.87,"body":"where the setbacks and"},{"startTime":375.93,"endTime":378.87,"body":"pitfalls fall of what we do,"},{"startTime":378.87,"endTime":381.3,"body":"how we each understand the work we do,"},{"startTime":381.3,"endTime":382.98,"body":"and more importantly and finally,"},{"startTime":382.98,"endTime":385.41,"body":"whether we think we are"},{"startTime":382.98,"endTime":385.41,"body":"doing the right thing"},{"startTime":385.41,"endTime":387.45,"body":"and whether the justice"},{"startTime":385.41,"endTime":387.45,"body":"system is enabling us"},{"startTime":387.45,"endTime":389.163,"body":"to do the right things in court."},{"startTime":390.13,"endTime":391.83,"body":"And so that's the unscripted part."},{"startTime":392.7,"endTime":393.533,"body":"And with no more ado,"},{"startTime":393.533,"endTime":395.382,"body":"you can see the general"},{"startTime":393.533,"endTime":395.382,"body":"areas we're going to cover"},{"startTime":395.382,"endTime":397.56,"body":"and we'll see how far we get."},{"startTime":397.56,"endTime":399.03,"body":"But we are quite clear that we are here"},{"startTime":399.03,"endTime":400.74,"body":"to answer your questions at the end,"},{"startTime":400.74,"endTime":402.63,"body":"whether online or in person."},{"startTime":402.63,"endTime":404.82,"body":"And this is the first of"},{"startTime":402.63,"endTime":404.82,"body":"a number of conversations"},{"startTime":404.82,"endTime":407.55,"body":"we want to happen both with you"},{"startTime":407.55,"endTime":409.59,"body":"and with the press and indeed with those"},{"startTime":409.59,"endTime":411.99,"body":"who control our working environments."},{"startTime":411.99,"endTime":413.25,"body":"Right. Owen?"},{"startTime":413.25,"endTime":414.09,"body":"- No, absolutely."},{"startTime":414.09,"endTime":417.21,"body":"So we work within a system that has flaws."},{"startTime":417.21,"endTime":419.49,"body":"We know there are many flaws in the NHS."},{"startTime":419.49,"endTime":420.57,"body":"We know there are many flaws"},{"startTime":420.57,"endTime":422.28,"body":"within the family justice council"},{"startTime":422.28,"endTime":423.99,"body":"and the system that we're trying to do."},{"startTime":423.99,"endTime":426.84,"body":"So we're trying to do our best"},{"startTime":423.99,"endTime":426.84,"body":"with the limited resources."},{"startTime":426.84,"endTime":429.468,"body":"So the question is whether the"},{"startTime":426.84,"endTime":429.468,"body":"system is currently working"},{"startTime":429.468,"endTime":432.693,"body":"and who the system should"},{"startTime":429.468,"endTime":432.693,"body":"be currently working for."},{"startTime":433.565,"endTime":437.52,"body":"We very much see the"},{"startTime":433.565,"endTime":437.52,"body":"cases that we deal with,"},{"startTime":437.52,"endTime":439.59,"body":"is almost like practicing medicine,"},{"startTime":439.59,"endTime":442.29,"body":"whereas you get pieces of a jigsaw."},{"startTime":442.29,"endTime":444.48,"body":"You don't always know what the pieces are."},{"startTime":444.48,"endTime":445.38,"body":"You don't always know what"},{"startTime":445.38,"endTime":447.667,"body":"the final jigsaw puzzle looks like."},{"startTime":447.667,"endTime":449.28,"body":"When you are practicing medicine"},{"startTime":449.28,"endTime":450.45,"body":"and trying to look after somebody,"},{"startTime":450.45,"endTime":452.49,"body":"you get pieces of the jigsaw,"},{"startTime":452.49,"endTime":454.65,"body":"if you like, piece by piece."},{"startTime":454.65,"endTime":456.693,"body":"As time goes on, more things are found."},{"startTime":457.676,"endTime":459.96,"body":"And the other reason"},{"startTime":457.676,"endTime":459.96,"body":"for the other slide here"},{"startTime":459.96,"endTime":462.09,"body":"really is just to say that we are aware"},{"startTime":462.09,"endTime":464.34,"body":"that what we see is"},{"startTime":462.09,"endTime":464.34,"body":"the tip of the iceberg."},{"startTime":464.34,"endTime":466.98,"body":"We deal with a small number of cases"},{"startTime":466.98,"endTime":469.704,"body":"of which there are many"},{"startTime":466.98,"endTime":469.704,"body":"more in the community."},{"startTime":469.704,"endTime":473.91,"body":"We struggle to perhaps recognize"},{"startTime":473.91,"endTime":476.754,"body":"and deal with all those that we don't see."},{"startTime":476.754,"endTime":478.11,"body":"But we are trying to do the best for those"},{"startTime":478.11,"endTime":480.093,"body":"that we do see within the system."},{"startTime":481.53,"endTime":482.79,"body":"So what happens and why?"},{"startTime":482.79,"endTime":485.255,"body":"You've heard one of the"},{"startTime":482.79,"endTime":485.255,"body":"typical scenarios that happens"},{"startTime":485.255,"endTime":488.823,"body":"presented in a very emotive"},{"startTime":485.255,"endTime":488.823,"body":"way to get your attention."},{"startTime":490.08,"endTime":491.31,"body":"This is often what happens"},{"startTime":491.31,"endTime":492.3,"body":"and we'll go through this quickly."},{"startTime":492.3,"endTime":494.13,"body":"So if a young child is injured or dies"},{"startTime":494.13,"endTime":497.01,"body":"whilst they're in the"},{"startTime":494.13,"endTime":497.01,"body":"hands of a parent or carer."},{"startTime":497.01,"endTime":499.29,"body":"So this term is used,"},{"startTime":497.01,"endTime":499.29,"body":"non-accidental injury."},{"startTime":499.29,"endTime":501.57,"body":"It means suspected physical abuse."},{"startTime":501.57,"endTime":503.73,"body":"There can often be a traumatic insult"},{"startTime":503.73,"endTime":505.83,"body":"and we think that it's trauma"},{"startTime":505.83,"endTime":507.357,"body":"that we don't know what's caused it."},{"startTime":507.357,"endTime":508.92,"body":"And so parents of carers,"},{"startTime":508.92,"endTime":511.65,"body":"as well as everybody else, are suspected."},{"startTime":511.65,"endTime":513.27,"body":"The key issues here are that the child"},{"startTime":513.27,"endTime":515.04,"body":"can't tell you what's happened."},{"startTime":515.04,"endTime":516.3,"body":"Children are either non-verbal"},{"startTime":516.3,"endTime":518.4,"body":"or they can't point to"},{"startTime":516.3,"endTime":518.4,"body":"where it hurts on the body."},{"startTime":518.4,"endTime":521.16,"body":"So particularly young children and babies."},{"startTime":521.16,"endTime":522.72,"body":"And the parent or whoever's"},{"startTime":521.16,"endTime":522.72,"body":"looking after them"},{"startTime":522.72,"endTime":524.91,"body":"won't or can't say what has happened,"},{"startTime":524.91,"endTime":526.38,"body":"either 'cause they don't know"},{"startTime":526.38,"endTime":528.48,"body":"or because they conceal what has happened."},{"startTime":529.32,"endTime":530.16,"body":"So then we move on."},{"startTime":530.16,"endTime":532.71,"body":"So how do we find out"},{"startTime":530.16,"endTime":532.71,"body":"more about the story?"},{"startTime":532.71,"endTime":534.57,"body":"- And that's when you start"},{"startTime":532.71,"endTime":534.57,"body":"with the child's body,"},{"startTime":534.57,"endTime":536.16,"body":"that's the basic evidence,"},{"startTime":536.16,"endTime":538.92,"body":"whether the child has survived"},{"startTime":536.16,"endTime":538.92,"body":"or whether they're dead."},{"startTime":538.92,"endTime":541.23,"body":"The body has a story to tell."},{"startTime":541.23,"endTime":543.66,"body":"So we look at the first outward signs."},{"startTime":543.66,"endTime":544.493,"body":"What do we see?"},{"startTime":544.493,"endTime":547.38,"body":"Do we see bruising? Do"},{"startTime":544.493,"endTime":547.38,"body":"we see signs of neglect?"},{"startTime":547.38,"endTime":549.96,"body":"And then we go deeper."},{"startTime":547.38,"endTime":549.96,"body":"We look beneath the skin."},{"startTime":549.96,"endTime":551.31,"body":"So we look for fractures."},{"startTime":551.31,"endTime":552.66,"body":"We look at the head,"},{"startTime":552.66,"endTime":555.0,"body":"we look at the skull to see"},{"startTime":552.66,"endTime":555.0,"body":"if there's any bleeding."},{"startTime":555.0,"endTime":557.67,"body":"We look at the eyes to see"},{"startTime":555.0,"endTime":557.67,"body":"if there's any bleeding."},{"startTime":557.67,"endTime":560.37,"body":"I want to say we, that's not me,"},{"startTime":560.37,"endTime":562.5,"body":"that's the medics in hospital"},{"startTime":562.5,"endTime":565.05,"body":"receiving a child not with a view"},{"startTime":565.05,"endTime":567.06,"body":"to what might become a court case,"},{"startTime":567.06,"endTime":569.85,"body":"but receiving a child"},{"startTime":567.06,"endTime":569.85,"body":"because they need to know"},{"startTime":569.85,"endTime":571.8,"body":"what to do to treat the child"},{"startTime":571.8,"endTime":573.993,"body":"to stop the condition of it worsening."},{"startTime":574.98,"endTime":577.2,"body":"So the signs that we see in a child"},{"startTime":577.2,"endTime":580.14,"body":"are only later put"},{"startTime":577.2,"endTime":580.14,"body":"under the spotlight lens"},{"startTime":580.14,"endTime":581.7,"body":"of the court and the expert."},{"startTime":581.7,"endTime":583.95,"body":"At the time when the child is first seen,"},{"startTime":583.95,"endTime":587.774,"body":"the first imperative for the"},{"startTime":583.95,"endTime":587.774,"body":"medics is what's happened?"},{"startTime":587.774,"endTime":591.03,"body":"What can we see that should be happening"},{"startTime":591.03,"endTime":592.56,"body":"and what else needs to happen?"},{"startTime":592.56,"endTime":594.09,"body":"- So one of the key aspects that hopefully"},{"startTime":594.09,"endTime":595.754,"body":"you'll understand from tonight is that"},{"startTime":595.754,"endTime":598.32,"body":"a doctor or health"},{"startTime":595.754,"endTime":598.32,"body":"professional looking after"},{"startTime":598.32,"endTime":600.09,"body":"a child who's coming to hospital"},{"startTime":600.09,"endTime":603.3,"body":"is in quite a different"},{"startTime":600.09,"endTime":603.3,"body":"circumstances or a scenario"},{"startTime":603.3,"endTime":606.36,"body":"to somebody being asked to"},{"startTime":603.3,"endTime":606.36,"body":"review the case afterwards"},{"startTime":606.36,"endTime":607.407,"body":"with all of the things that have happened"},{"startTime":607.407,"endTime":610.56,"body":"and to try and tell a court"},{"startTime":607.407,"endTime":610.56,"body":"what might have happened."},{"startTime":610.56,"endTime":612.78,"body":"So these are two very different approaches"},{"startTime":612.78,"endTime":614.64,"body":"to effectively the same"},{"startTime":612.78,"endTime":614.64,"body":"child and the same hospital"},{"startTime":614.64,"endTime":616.53,"body":"having the same things happen to them."},{"startTime":616.53,"endTime":619.05,"body":"But one person is doing it prospectively"},{"startTime":619.05,"endTime":622.29,"body":"as the whole story unfolds, if you like,"},{"startTime":622.29,"endTime":623.649,"body":"and the other person is doing it"},{"startTime":623.649,"endTime":626.61,"body":"with a very cold retrospective look"},{"startTime":626.61,"endTime":629.13,"body":"at whether or not what happened was right"},{"startTime":629.13,"endTime":631.17,"body":"or whether or not it"},{"startTime":629.13,"endTime":631.17,"body":"should have been different."},{"startTime":631.17,"endTime":633.09,"body":"So that's one of the things"},{"startTime":631.17,"endTime":633.09,"body":"we're going to talk about."},{"startTime":633.09,"endTime":636.09,"body":"And I like to use the jigsaw analogy"},{"startTime":636.09,"endTime":639.03,"body":"because people understand"},{"startTime":636.09,"endTime":639.03,"body":"what a jigsaw puzzle is."},{"startTime":639.03,"endTime":641.19,"body":"They understand the incentive"},{"startTime":641.19,"endTime":643.47,"body":"of trying to complete the jigsaw."},{"startTime":643.47,"endTime":646.29,"body":"They understand that if you're"},{"startTime":643.47,"endTime":646.29,"body":"given one piece by one piece,"},{"startTime":646.29,"endTime":649.32,"body":"it'll be quite difficult to"},{"startTime":646.29,"endTime":649.32,"body":"see what the bigger picture is."},{"startTime":649.32,"endTime":651.93,"body":"And equally, whilst they"},{"startTime":649.32,"endTime":651.93,"body":"give you piece by piece,"},{"startTime":651.93,"endTime":653.91,"body":"they might be pieces"},{"startTime":651.93,"endTime":653.91,"body":"from a different jigsaw."},{"startTime":653.91,"endTime":655.08,"body":"How would you ever know until"},{"startTime":655.08,"endTime":656.637,"body":"you start trying to piece them together?"},{"startTime":656.637,"endTime":658.68,"body":"And there's a difference"},{"startTime":656.637,"endTime":658.68,"body":"between doing that"},{"startTime":658.68,"endTime":660.6,"body":"piece by piece and things unfolding"},{"startTime":660.6,"endTime":662.64,"body":"versus here's the whole jigsaw puzzle,"},{"startTime":662.64,"endTime":665.31,"body":"how do you think it was put together?"},{"startTime":665.31,"endTime":667.35,"body":"So we don't presume any of these things."},{"startTime":667.35,"endTime":669.18,"body":"We don't force pieces to fit,"},{"startTime":669.18,"endTime":671.31,"body":"not in real life or in"},{"startTime":669.18,"endTime":671.31,"body":"a courtroom setting."},{"startTime":671.31,"endTime":672.63,"body":"We don't try and presume we know"},{"startTime":672.63,"endTime":675.18,"body":"what the end result is going to look like."},{"startTime":675.18,"endTime":676.2,"body":"And we don't accuse,"},{"startTime":676.2,"endTime":678.6,"body":"we don't judge people for"},{"startTime":676.2,"endTime":678.6,"body":"what might have happened."},{"startTime":678.6,"endTime":680.1,"body":"We are trying to work out"},{"startTime":680.1,"endTime":682.027,"body":"the sequence of events, the story,"},{"startTime":682.027,"endTime":684.09,"body":"and different pieces come out"},{"startTime":684.09,"endTime":685.26,"body":"as we go through that process."},{"startTime":685.26,"endTime":687.24,"body":"- Who's the we? The expert or the medic?"},{"startTime":687.24,"endTime":689.4,"body":"- So here, we're talking about medics."},{"startTime":689.4,"endTime":692.01,"body":"We're talking about health"},{"startTime":689.4,"endTime":692.01,"body":"professionals on the frontline"},{"startTime":692.01,"endTime":694.2,"body":"with a child who's come"},{"startTime":692.01,"endTime":694.2,"body":"to hospital, typically,"},{"startTime":694.2,"endTime":696.81,"body":"even a GP, whoever has seen"},{"startTime":694.2,"endTime":696.81,"body":"them, or a social worker,"},{"startTime":696.81,"endTime":698.79,"body":"a teacher maybe who's noticed something"},{"startTime":698.79,"endTime":700.5,"body":"and brought them to medical attention."},{"startTime":700.5,"endTime":702.3,"body":"These are all pieces of what"},{"startTime":702.3,"endTime":704.103,"body":"will become a complex jigsaw."},{"startTime":704.97,"endTime":706.14,"body":"So a very brief timeline."},{"startTime":706.14,"endTime":708.0,"body":"There might be a 999 call,"},{"startTime":708.0,"endTime":709.92,"body":"an ambulance coming and attending,"},{"startTime":709.92,"endTime":712.17,"body":"the hospital swings into action,"},{"startTime":712.17,"endTime":714.09,"body":"there are lots of health"},{"startTime":712.17,"endTime":714.09,"body":"professionals involved,"},{"startTime":714.09,"endTime":717.45,"body":"not all of whom you'll recognize"},{"startTime":714.09,"endTime":717.45,"body":"or be able to identify."},{"startTime":717.45,"endTime":719.16,"body":"The parent will give an initial account"},{"startTime":719.16,"endTime":720.42,"body":"of what might have happened"},{"startTime":720.42,"endTime":721.86,"body":"and the child's account,"},{"startTime":721.86,"endTime":724.98,"body":"either verbally or"},{"startTime":721.86,"endTime":724.98,"body":"non-verbally in terms of"},{"startTime":724.98,"endTime":727.44,"body":"what we find out about their body,"},{"startTime":727.44,"endTime":728.67,"body":"the blood results,"},{"startTime":728.67,"endTime":730.277,"body":"the imaging results"},{"startTime":728.67,"endTime":730.277,"body":"which we'll go through."},{"startTime":730.277,"endTime":732.6,"body":"And of course the medical imperative"},{"startTime":732.6,"endTime":734.04,"body":"is to treat the child."},{"startTime":734.04,"endTime":736.68,"body":"They might be near fatal,"},{"startTime":734.04,"endTime":736.68,"body":"they may have died."},{"startTime":736.68,"endTime":740.187,"body":"There might be things we can"},{"startTime":736.68,"endTime":740.187,"body":"prevent happening immediately"},{"startTime":740.187,"endTime":742.02,"body":"and much later on down the line"},{"startTime":742.02,"endTime":744.09,"body":"comes the question of whether"},{"startTime":742.02,"endTime":744.09,"body":"or not there's a trial,"},{"startTime":744.09,"endTime":745.8,"body":"whether we've documented the evidence"},{"startTime":745.8,"endTime":747.51,"body":"and all the other things."},{"startTime":747.51,"endTime":749.13,"body":"So treating the child is, like I say,"},{"startTime":749.13,"endTime":750.06,"body":"like a jigsaw puzzle."},{"startTime":750.06,"endTime":752.34,"body":"You're trying to piece things together"},{"startTime":752.34,"endTime":753.643,"body":"and we often use things like this,"},{"startTime":753.643,"endTime":755.34,"body":"a child protection body map."},{"startTime":755.34,"endTime":757.32,"body":"And we use lots of imaging to"},{"startTime":757.32,"endTime":759.27,"body":"try and point out what's happened where."},{"startTime":759.27,"endTime":762.6,"body":"So these images, classical sort of"},{"startTime":762.6,"endTime":764.31,"body":"suspected physical abuse images."},{"startTime":764.31,"endTime":768.3,"body":"So here is a skull fracture"},{"startTime":764.31,"endTime":768.3,"body":"shown on an x-ray and a CT."},{"startTime":768.3,"endTime":770.73,"body":"Skull fractures don't"},{"startTime":768.3,"endTime":770.73,"body":"happen spontaneously."},{"startTime":770.73,"endTime":775.05,"body":"They don't usually happen"},{"startTime":770.73,"endTime":775.05,"body":"accidentally in small children."},{"startTime":775.05,"endTime":777.66,"body":"These are retinal hemorrhages"},{"startTime":775.05,"endTime":777.66,"body":"at the bottom here."},{"startTime":777.66,"endTime":780.69,"body":"So these are examples of"},{"startTime":777.66,"endTime":780.69,"body":"bleeding in the back of the eyes."},{"startTime":780.69,"endTime":782.76,"body":"They also don't happen spontaneously."},{"startTime":782.76,"endTime":786.33,"body":"And then there can be quite"},{"startTime":782.76,"endTime":786.33,"body":"characteristic fractures"},{"startTime":786.33,"endTime":788.01,"body":"of an upper limb or a lower limb."},{"startTime":788.01,"endTime":789.96,"body":"And here healing rib fractures."},{"startTime":789.96,"endTime":792.69,"body":"Each of these tells a"},{"startTime":789.96,"endTime":792.69,"body":"small part of that story"},{"startTime":792.69,"endTime":794.67,"body":"and that gives an example"},{"startTime":792.69,"endTime":794.67,"body":"of the types of things"},{"startTime":794.67,"endTime":796.59,"body":"we're trying to pull together."},{"startTime":796.59,"endTime":797.79,"body":"So the whole series of people"},{"startTime":797.79,"endTime":801.21,"body":"who might have looked after"},{"startTime":797.79,"endTime":801.21,"body":"the child in that story."},{"startTime":801.21,"endTime":802.44,"body":"Health visitors, the GP,"},{"startTime":802.44,"endTime":804.303,"body":"the pediatrician, radiologists,"},{"startTime":805.163,"endTime":808.05,"body":"lots of experts in their medical field."},{"startTime":808.05,"endTime":810.36,"body":"And then of course when it"},{"startTime":808.05,"endTime":810.36,"body":"comes to the courtroom setting,"},{"startTime":810.36,"endTime":812.22,"body":"there might be an"},{"startTime":810.36,"endTime":812.22,"body":"equivalent number of experts"},{"startTime":812.22,"endTime":815.79,"body":"who are called to give an"},{"startTime":812.22,"endTime":815.79,"body":"opinion on those situations."},{"startTime":815.79,"endTime":817.11,"body":"So why is that?"},{"startTime":817.11,"endTime":817.943,"body":"- Well the first clue."},{"startTime":817.943,"endTime":820.217,"body":"Can you there's a star on the"},{"startTime":817.943,"endTime":820.217,"body":"slide about the pediatrician?"},{"startTime":820.217,"endTime":823.44,"body":"'Cause you can see some"},{"startTime":820.217,"endTime":823.44,"body":"professions being both"},{"startTime":823.44,"endTime":826.14,"body":"under the treating medics"},{"startTime":823.44,"endTime":826.14,"body":"and the expert witnesses."},{"startTime":826.14,"endTime":827.67,"body":"Now when you're in a hospital scenario,"},{"startTime":827.67,"endTime":829.95,"body":"the first person you're likely"},{"startTime":827.67,"endTime":829.95,"body":"to see is a pediatrician"},{"startTime":829.95,"endTime":831.81,"body":"because they have to look, assess,"},{"startTime":831.81,"endTime":833.67,"body":"and then give orders for who else"},{"startTime":833.67,"endTime":835.8,"body":"should do the particular specialist work"},{"startTime":835.8,"endTime":839.1,"body":"in relation to the child's"},{"startTime":835.8,"endTime":839.1,"body":"investigation of injuries."},{"startTime":839.1,"endTime":841.59,"body":"That's very different"},{"startTime":839.1,"endTime":841.59,"body":"from a courtroom scenario"},{"startTime":841.59,"endTime":843.81,"body":"where the pediatrician is the last person"},{"startTime":843.81,"endTime":846.69,"body":"to review all the individual"},{"startTime":843.81,"endTime":846.69,"body":"specialist reports."},{"startTime":846.69,"endTime":848.19,"body":"'Cause we need the pediatrician"},{"startTime":848.19,"endTime":850.08,"body":"to put the pieces together."},{"startTime":850.08,"endTime":852.72,"body":"And we ask the question, and"},{"startTime":850.08,"endTime":852.72,"body":"you may ask the question,"},{"startTime":852.72,"endTime":855.09,"body":"why do we have separate bodies?"},{"startTime":855.09,"endTime":856.41,"body":"Look at the left column."},{"startTime":856.41,"endTime":857.73,"body":"You know, you've got the pediatrician,"},{"startTime":857.73,"endTime":859.77,"body":"the radiologist, the ophthalmologist there"},{"startTime":859.77,"endTime":861.93,"body":"and there you are with"},{"startTime":859.77,"endTime":861.93,"body":"the same disciplines"},{"startTime":861.93,"endTime":864.3,"body":"appearing on the second"},{"startTime":861.93,"endTime":864.3,"body":"side of the experts."},{"startTime":864.3,"endTime":867.15,"body":"And this is the first hit point"},{"startTime":864.3,"endTime":867.15,"body":"of the lecture. All right?"},{"startTime":867.15,"endTime":869.01,"body":"Because this lecture is not aimed"},{"startTime":869.01,"endTime":871.59,"body":"at the basic person who's"},{"startTime":869.01,"endTime":871.59,"body":"learning about the system,"},{"startTime":871.59,"endTime":873.15,"body":"it's aimed at the issues which"},{"startTime":873.15,"endTime":875.31,"body":"were only going to be"},{"startTime":873.15,"endTime":875.31,"body":"talked about, honestly,"},{"startTime":875.31,"endTime":878.07,"body":"when you get the likes"},{"startTime":875.31,"endTime":878.07,"body":"of us in a public forum"},{"startTime":878.07,"endTime":880.29,"body":"discussing where the pitfalls are."},{"startTime":880.29,"endTime":882.0,"body":"So the next point is"},{"startTime":882.0,"endTime":884.94,"body":"why do we need expert witnesses at all,"},{"startTime":884.94,"endTime":886.98,"body":"when in fact we've got all that skill base"},{"startTime":886.98,"endTime":889.14,"body":"looking at the first column?"},{"startTime":889.14,"endTime":890.7,"body":"- So you might be thinking"},{"startTime":889.14,"endTime":890.7,"body":"this is a waste of time."},{"startTime":890.7,"endTime":892.26,"body":"Calling two lots of people"},{"startTime":892.26,"endTime":894.15,"body":"to give an opinion on the same thing."},{"startTime":894.15,"endTime":895.71,"body":"That's a reasonable assumption."},{"startTime":895.71,"endTime":897.57,"body":"So let's look at what they actually do."},{"startTime":897.57,"endTime":899.88,"body":"So if you are looking after the child,"},{"startTime":899.88,"endTime":901.89,"body":"you can be called to go to court"},{"startTime":901.89,"endTime":903.87,"body":"to tell the court what you did."},{"startTime":903.87,"endTime":905.88,"body":"You'll be a professional"},{"startTime":903.87,"endTime":905.88,"body":"witness in the same way"},{"startTime":905.88,"endTime":908.19,"body":"as if you witnessed a"},{"startTime":905.88,"endTime":908.19,"body":"car accident outside,"},{"startTime":908.19,"endTime":911.04,"body":"you might be called to court"},{"startTime":908.19,"endTime":911.04,"body":"to say, what did you see?"},{"startTime":911.04,"endTime":912.69,"body":"So you will give that evidence."},{"startTime":912.69,"endTime":913.98,"body":"What did I see? what did I hear?"},{"startTime":913.98,"endTime":915.3,"body":"What did I write down?"},{"startTime":915.3,"endTime":916.77,"body":"And this is what I did."},{"startTime":916.77,"endTime":918.36,"body":"But that's all."},{"startTime":918.36,"endTime":920.61,"body":"So your opinion is"},{"startTime":918.36,"endTime":920.61,"body":"already based in the fact."},{"startTime":920.61,"endTime":923.22,"body":"So I saw this child, I"},{"startTime":920.61,"endTime":923.22,"body":"looked at the x-rays,"},{"startTime":923.22,"endTime":925.74,"body":"I diagnosed a fracture and I relayed that"},{"startTime":925.74,"endTime":927.984,"body":"back to the pediatrician"},{"startTime":925.74,"endTime":927.984,"body":"looking after them."},{"startTime":927.984,"endTime":929.88,"body":"That's all you can say"},{"startTime":929.88,"endTime":933.03,"body":"because if you're asked to"},{"startTime":929.88,"endTime":933.03,"body":"review your own evidence,"},{"startTime":933.03,"endTime":934.423,"body":"you're not in a position to do so"},{"startTime":934.423,"endTime":935.31,"body":"'cause you're not independent,"},{"startTime":935.31,"endTime":938.13,"body":"and you don't have all"},{"startTime":935.31,"endTime":938.13,"body":"the facts as they unfold"},{"startTime":938.13,"endTime":940.203,"body":"in the process of looking after a child."},{"startTime":941.85,"endTime":944.16,"body":"The way in which those"},{"startTime":941.85,"endTime":944.16,"body":"decisions are made in medicine"},{"startTime":944.16,"endTime":947.04,"body":"is very different to the way in which"},{"startTime":947.04,"endTime":949.02,"body":"they'll be reviewed later on."},{"startTime":949.02,"endTime":950.37,"body":"So I hate to say it, I think there's quite"},{"startTime":950.37,"endTime":951.81,"body":"a lot of things that happen in hospitals"},{"startTime":951.81,"endTime":954.9,"body":"that might not stand up to court scrutiny."},{"startTime":954.9,"endTime":957.15,"body":"There will be perhaps corners cut,"},{"startTime":957.15,"endTime":958.734,"body":"there will be corridor conversations,"},{"startTime":958.734,"endTime":961.38,"body":"there are opinions and conversations"},{"startTime":961.38,"endTime":962.43,"body":"that go on behind the scenes,"},{"startTime":962.43,"endTime":964.35,"body":"not all of which are documented,"},{"startTime":964.35,"endTime":967.98,"body":"but that's because sometimes"},{"startTime":964.35,"endTime":967.98,"body":"medicine happens very quickly."},{"startTime":967.98,"endTime":969.66,"body":"You're making rapid decisions about"},{"startTime":969.66,"endTime":970.59,"body":"what's best for the child."},{"startTime":970.59,"endTime":972.06,"body":"Should they go to intensive care?"},{"startTime":972.06,"endTime":973.175,"body":"Who should be called?"},{"startTime":973.175,"endTime":975.66,"body":"What's the next best"},{"startTime":973.175,"endTime":975.66,"body":"investigation they need?"},{"startTime":975.66,"endTime":978.57,"body":"They're not all necessarily"},{"startTime":975.66,"endTime":978.57,"body":"recorded at the time."},{"startTime":978.57,"endTime":979.905,"body":"Sometimes they're done afterwards"},{"startTime":979.905,"endTime":982.95,"body":"and then other professionals get involved,"},{"startTime":982.95,"endTime":984.63,"body":"the police, the social services,"},{"startTime":984.63,"endTime":986.39,"body":"lots of other people"},{"startTime":984.63,"endTime":986.39,"body":"are inputting into this."},{"startTime":986.39,"endTime":989.16,"body":"So that's why I try and"},{"startTime":986.39,"endTime":989.16,"body":"talk about a jigsaw puzzle"},{"startTime":989.16,"endTime":991.38,"body":"with not all the pieces are known yet"},{"startTime":991.38,"endTime":992.643,"body":"and things are unfolding."},{"startTime":993.51,"endTime":995.55,"body":"You don't have the benefit of hindsight"},{"startTime":995.55,"endTime":998.76,"body":"as we sitting here"},{"startTime":995.55,"endTime":998.76,"body":"reviewing a case might have."},{"startTime":998.76,"endTime":1001.073,"body":"You are very much"},{"startTime":998.76,"endTime":1001.073,"body":"operating as things happen."},{"startTime":1002.03,"endTime":1004.515,"body":"So medics don't like going to court."},{"startTime":1004.515,"endTime":1006.35,"body":"They don't like being asked"},{"startTime":1006.35,"endTime":1008.99,"body":"whether what they did was right or wrong."},{"startTime":1008.99,"endTime":1011.84,"body":"They don't like, some of these-"},{"startTime":1011.84,"endTime":1013.01,"body":"They're worried about going to court"},{"startTime":1013.01,"endTime":1014.78,"body":"even just as a witness"},{"startTime":1013.01,"endTime":1014.78,"body":"to say what happened"},{"startTime":1014.78,"endTime":1017.48,"body":"because what if they can't"},{"startTime":1014.78,"endTime":1017.48,"body":"remember what happened?"},{"startTime":1017.48,"endTime":1019.19,"body":"What if their notes aren't quite right?"},{"startTime":1019.19,"endTime":1021.2,"body":"What if somebody asks you"},{"startTime":1019.19,"endTime":1021.2,"body":"something you can't answer?"},{"startTime":1021.2,"endTime":1024.32,"body":"What if somebody like Jo,"},{"startTime":1021.2,"endTime":1024.32,"body":"looking at me like that,"},{"startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1028.55,"body":"is going to come out with"},{"startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1028.55,"body":"something that I can't address?"},{"startTime":1028.55,"endTime":1031.1,"body":"So what if they get another"},{"startTime":1028.55,"endTime":1031.1,"body":"expert who disagrees with me"},{"startTime":1031.1,"endTime":1032.78,"body":"and says what I did was wrong?"},{"startTime":1032.78,"endTime":1034.22,"body":"People are very nervous about"},{"startTime":1034.22,"endTime":1037.16,"body":"being criticized in that forum."},{"startTime":1037.16,"endTime":1038.9,"body":"So it's easier not to bother."},{"startTime":1038.9,"endTime":1040.25,"body":"Do I have to go?"},{"startTime":1040.25,"endTime":1041.96,"body":"Can I be forced to go to court?"},{"startTime":1041.96,"endTime":1043.37,"body":"All of these questions start bubbling up,"},{"startTime":1043.37,"endTime":1045.29,"body":"I dunno if you can respond"},{"startTime":1043.37,"endTime":1045.29,"body":"to any of those, Jo."},{"startTime":1045.29,"endTime":1046.31,"body":"Do I have to go if"},{"startTime":1046.31,"endTime":1048.11,"body":"I'm asked to go?"},{"startTime":1046.31,"endTime":1048.11,"body":"- If you witness something"},{"startTime":1048.11,"endTime":1049.507,"body":"we'd expect you to attend."},{"startTime":1049.507,"endTime":1052.503,"body":"And yeah, you'll be in court."},{"startTime":1053.36,"endTime":1055.092,"body":"- [Leslie] Can I just ask?"},{"startTime":1055.092,"endTime":1057.17,"body":"As a clinician,"},{"startTime":1057.17,"endTime":1060.14,"body":"how much time you would get to prepare"},{"startTime":1060.14,"endTime":1064.22,"body":"for going to court as a clinical witness"},{"startTime":1064.22,"endTime":1066.26,"body":"rather than as an expert witness?"},{"startTime":1066.26,"endTime":1068.0,"body":"- So all the time you are asked"},{"startTime":1068.0,"endTime":1069.59,"body":"to go to court as a professional witness,"},{"startTime":1069.59,"endTime":1071.42,"body":"it's part of your clinical practice."},{"startTime":1071.42,"endTime":1072.92,"body":"So all the time you're doing that,"},{"startTime":1072.92,"endTime":1075.56,"body":"you are not doing what"},{"startTime":1072.92,"endTime":1075.56,"body":"the NHS needs you to do."},{"startTime":1075.56,"endTime":1077.06,"body":"So there's a conflict already"},{"startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1080.87,"body":"between what you need to do"},{"startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1080.87,"body":"for the family justice system"},{"startTime":1080.87,"endTime":1082.61,"body":"versus what what you"},{"startTime":1080.87,"endTime":1082.61,"body":"need to do for the NHS"},{"startTime":1082.61,"endTime":1084.53,"body":"and what's your day job."},{"startTime":1084.53,"endTime":1086.12,"body":"The more of these children you look after,"},{"startTime":1086.12,"endTime":1088.1,"body":"the more likely it is"},{"startTime":1086.12,"endTime":1088.1,"body":"you're going to need to be"},{"startTime":1088.1,"endTime":1090.95,"body":"writing reports and"},{"startTime":1088.1,"endTime":1090.95,"body":"helping the court system."},{"startTime":1090.95,"endTime":1091.94,"body":"So there are some people who"},{"startTime":1091.94,"endTime":1093.71,"body":"don't want to get involved in this work"},{"startTime":1093.71,"endTime":1095.99,"body":"because they can see the consequences"},{"startTime":1095.99,"endTime":1097.91,"body":"of where it might lead."},{"startTime":1097.91,"endTime":1098.99,"body":"How much time you're-"},{"startTime":1098.99,"endTime":1101.117,"body":"To be fair, most of the time,"},{"startTime":1101.117,"endTime":1104.03,"body":"the NHS workers and the system appreciate"},{"startTime":1104.03,"endTime":1106.31,"body":"the need and the importance for this work."},{"startTime":1106.31,"endTime":1109.07,"body":"So you would be allowed time to go"},{"startTime":1109.07,"endTime":1111.89,"body":"either in person to the court"},{"startTime":1109.07,"endTime":1111.89,"body":"or time to write a report."},{"startTime":1111.89,"endTime":1114.14,"body":"Your reports are short, they're factual,"},{"startTime":1114.14,"endTime":1114.98,"body":"that, \"This is what I did"},{"startTime":1114.98,"endTime":1117.35,"body":"as part of my normal everyday practice"},{"startTime":1117.35,"endTime":1118.25,"body":"and that's all I can say"},{"startTime":1118.25,"endTime":1120.41,"body":"that I did in this case.\""},{"startTime":1120.41,"endTime":1122.57,"body":"- Alright, so why do we need experts?"},{"startTime":1122.57,"endTime":1124.82,"body":"We need experts because"},{"startTime":1124.82,"endTime":1127.13,"body":"if you are prepared to"},{"startTime":1124.82,"endTime":1127.13,"body":"be a medical expert,"},{"startTime":1127.13,"endTime":1129.11,"body":"you've made the choice."},{"startTime":1129.11,"endTime":1132.32,"body":"One, to get the additional"},{"startTime":1129.11,"endTime":1132.32,"body":"training and accreditation."},{"startTime":1132.32,"endTime":1135.38,"body":"Two, to be taught about"},{"startTime":1132.32,"endTime":1135.38,"body":"what happens in court,"},{"startTime":1135.38,"endTime":1137.606,"body":"what barristers do, what the judge does,"},{"startTime":1137.606,"endTime":1139.46,"body":"what your responsibilities are"},{"startTime":1139.46,"endTime":1141.35,"body":"when you are preparing your reports."},{"startTime":1141.35,"endTime":1144.05,"body":"And you've elected to"},{"startTime":1141.35,"endTime":1144.05,"body":"put your name out there"},{"startTime":1144.05,"endTime":1145.58,"body":"because experts can be named"},{"startTime":1145.58,"endTime":1148.31,"body":"in publications, judicial publications."},{"startTime":1148.31,"endTime":1149.81,"body":"And it means that you are effectively"},{"startTime":1149.81,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"putting your professional"},{"startTime":1149.81,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"reputation out there"},{"startTime":1151.73,"endTime":1153.89,"body":"out on the line to be judged by someone,"},{"startTime":1153.89,"endTime":1157.19,"body":"literally judged by someone, the judge."},{"startTime":1157.19,"endTime":1159.11,"body":"And you don't have"},{"startTime":1157.19,"endTime":1159.11,"body":"control over the process"},{"startTime":1159.11,"endTime":1160.43,"body":"because you are one expert"},{"startTime":1160.43,"endTime":1162.44,"body":"in a whole range that might be called,"},{"startTime":1162.44,"endTime":1163.79,"body":"where you don't know the context"},{"startTime":1163.79,"endTime":1165.47,"body":"of the other evidence"},{"startTime":1163.79,"endTime":1165.47,"body":"that's going to be given."},{"startTime":1165.47,"endTime":1167.54,"body":"So it's a big ask."},{"startTime":1167.54,"endTime":1170.6,"body":"It's also a hideous amount of time."},{"startTime":1170.6,"endTime":1172.46,"body":"But the responsibility is huge,"},{"startTime":1172.46,"endTime":1174.38,"body":"and why is it so huge?"},{"startTime":1174.38,"endTime":1176.42,"body":"It's because when we need an expert,"},{"startTime":1176.42,"endTime":1179.48,"body":"we need them because you are necessary"},{"startTime":1179.48,"endTime":1181.01,"body":"for the court to make a decision"},{"startTime":1181.01,"endTime":1182.93,"body":"about what's happened to the child."},{"startTime":1182.93,"endTime":1185.09,"body":"We don't want opinions"},{"startTime":1182.93,"endTime":1185.09,"body":"from treating medics."},{"startTime":1185.09,"endTime":1186.44,"body":"And we come onto why that is,"},{"startTime":1186.44,"endTime":1188.81,"body":"not because they're not"},{"startTime":1186.44,"endTime":1188.81,"body":"valued as treating medics"},{"startTime":1188.81,"endTime":1190.79,"body":"but because of the"},{"startTime":1188.81,"endTime":1190.79,"body":"reasons which Owen said,"},{"startTime":1190.79,"endTime":1192.68,"body":"we want someone to come in"},{"startTime":1192.68,"endTime":1195.35,"body":"that reads the papers with hindsight"},{"startTime":1195.35,"endTime":1198.02,"body":"and reads papers that the"},{"startTime":1195.35,"endTime":1198.02,"body":"medics will never see."},{"startTime":1198.02,"endTime":1200.953,"body":"So an expert will come"},{"startTime":1198.02,"endTime":1200.953,"body":"in on the basis that"},{"startTime":1200.953,"endTime":1202.49,"body":"they'll be offered a bundle"},{"startTime":1202.49,"endTime":1204.86,"body":"which contains all the medical notes."},{"startTime":1204.86,"endTime":1206.99,"body":"It'll contain the parent's statements,"},{"startTime":1206.99,"endTime":1208.49,"body":"it'll contain the parent's interviews"},{"startTime":1208.49,"endTime":1209.96,"body":"they've given to the police,"},{"startTime":1209.96,"endTime":1212.78,"body":"it will contain other experts reports."},{"startTime":1212.78,"endTime":1215.15,"body":"It will be the best quality"},{"startTime":1212.78,"endTime":1215.15,"body":"evidence we can give"},{"startTime":1215.15,"endTime":1216.56,"body":"and sometimes that's woeful."},{"startTime":1216.56,"endTime":1218.24,"body":"But your responsibility is"},{"startTime":1218.24,"endTime":1220.25,"body":"to go through it with a fine tooth comb,"},{"startTime":1220.25,"endTime":1223.16,"body":"sieving out what's relevant"},{"startTime":1220.25,"endTime":1223.16,"body":"to your discipline,"},{"startTime":1223.16,"endTime":1224.93,"body":"answering the questions which are relevant"},{"startTime":1224.93,"endTime":1228.29,"body":"to your discipline and not"},{"startTime":1224.93,"endTime":1228.29,"body":"trespassing on someone else's,"},{"startTime":1228.29,"endTime":1229.73,"body":"telling the court if actually"},{"startTime":1229.73,"endTime":1231.59,"body":"they need to get another expert in"},{"startTime":1231.59,"endTime":1235.28,"body":"because this is beyond"},{"startTime":1231.59,"endTime":1235.28,"body":"your range of skill base,"},{"startTime":1235.28,"endTime":1237.59,"body":"and then ultimately"},{"startTime":1235.28,"endTime":1237.59,"body":"putting your conclusions"},{"startTime":1237.59,"endTime":1240.29,"body":"in a balanced, neutral way"},{"startTime":1240.29,"endTime":1242.15,"body":"with the research to back it up,"},{"startTime":1242.15,"endTime":1244.46,"body":"in a report that is both comprehensive"},{"startTime":1244.46,"endTime":1246.56,"body":"but succinct enough to be understood"},{"startTime":1246.56,"endTime":1248.99,"body":"by the non-medics in the court."},{"startTime":1248.99,"endTime":1250.28,"body":"Now just going through that list,"},{"startTime":1250.28,"endTime":1251.18,"body":"that's a big ask."},{"startTime":1251.18,"endTime":1252.2,"body":"- [Owen] It sounds easy, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":1252.2,"endTime":1255.28,"body":"- Yeah. And then having done that report,"},{"startTime":1255.28,"endTime":1257.99,"body":"you prepare the report on condition,"},{"startTime":1257.99,"endTime":1261.08,"body":"you are prepared one, to"},{"startTime":1257.99,"endTime":1261.08,"body":"go to an expert's meeting."},{"startTime":1261.08,"endTime":1263.18,"body":"So that's the first time"},{"startTime":1261.08,"endTime":1263.18,"body":"you'll come face to face"},{"startTime":1263.18,"endTime":1265.01,"body":"with the other experts"},{"startTime":1263.18,"endTime":1265.01,"body":"that have been instructed,"},{"startTime":1265.01,"endTime":1267.05,"body":"where there may be a lively debate"},{"startTime":1267.05,"endTime":1269.51,"body":"about whether you are seeing fresh blood"},{"startTime":1269.51,"endTime":1270.83,"body":"or whether it's old blood"},{"startTime":1270.83,"endTime":1273.26,"body":"or where you're seeing"},{"startTime":1270.83,"endTime":1273.26,"body":"traumatic acute effusions."},{"startTime":1273.26,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"Where the detail of the case is discussed."},{"startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1278.78,"body":"And that's a intellectually and"},{"startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1278.78,"body":"factually demanding exercise"},{"startTime":1278.78,"endTime":1281.24,"body":"on top of a heavy responsibility"},{"startTime":1281.24,"endTime":1284.12,"body":"of clinical and expert practice."},{"startTime":1284.12,"endTime":1286.04,"body":"And if that's not enough,"},{"startTime":1286.04,"endTime":1289.13,"body":"you have to come to court"},{"startTime":1286.04,"endTime":1289.13,"body":"to be cross-examined."},{"startTime":1289.13,"endTime":1289.963,"body":"By me!"},{"startTime":1290.96,"endTime":1292.61,"body":"Or by others, by Leslie."},{"startTime":1292.61,"endTime":1294.36,"body":"And that's a big unknown"},{"startTime":1295.4,"endTime":1297.35,"body":"and it's a big responsibility"},{"startTime":1297.35,"endTime":1299.69,"body":"which most experts will still say"},{"startTime":1299.69,"endTime":1303.74,"body":"invests in them a sense of apprehension."},{"startTime":1303.74,"endTime":1306.8,"body":"It could be anxiety, but the not knowing,"},{"startTime":1306.8,"endTime":1308.15,"body":"because you're being catapulted"},{"startTime":1308.15,"endTime":1310.16,"body":"into a case that's in motion,"},{"startTime":1310.16,"endTime":1311.87,"body":"not knowing what's happened before,"},{"startTime":1311.87,"endTime":1313.79,"body":"not knowing who's going"},{"startTime":1311.87,"endTime":1313.79,"body":"to ask you questions,"},{"startTime":1313.79,"endTime":1315.53,"body":"not knowing if the judge"},{"startTime":1313.79,"endTime":1315.53,"body":"is going to make sure"},{"startTime":1315.53,"endTime":1317.39,"body":"you're questioned appropriately."},{"startTime":1317.39,"endTime":1318.77,"body":"And then after all that's done,"},{"startTime":1318.77,"endTime":1319.7,"body":"you leave the witness box"},{"startTime":1319.7,"endTime":1321.286,"body":"and you have no idea what's happened"},{"startTime":1321.286,"endTime":1325.4,"body":"because you don't know"},{"startTime":1321.286,"endTime":1325.4,"body":"what the judge is deciding."},{"startTime":1325.4,"endTime":1327.41,"body":"And that is a big ask,"},{"startTime":1327.41,"endTime":1331.1,"body":"which is why for an expert"},{"startTime":1327.41,"endTime":1331.1,"body":"to put themselves forward,"},{"startTime":1331.1,"endTime":1334.31,"body":"they have to be prepared for"},{"startTime":1331.1,"endTime":1334.31,"body":"us to scrutinize their CV."},{"startTime":1334.31,"endTime":1337.52,"body":"They have to be prepared to"},{"startTime":1334.31,"endTime":1337.52,"body":"be criticized or questioned."},{"startTime":1337.52,"endTime":1339.47,"body":"They have to be prepared to explain."},{"startTime":1339.47,"endTime":1342.02,"body":"And that means they've got"},{"startTime":1339.47,"endTime":1342.02,"body":"to be good communicators."},{"startTime":1342.02,"endTime":1345.35,"body":"So all of those skills"},{"startTime":1342.02,"endTime":1345.35,"body":"are a marked difference"},{"startTime":1345.35,"endTime":1347.27,"body":"from the treating medic in the hospital,"},{"startTime":1347.27,"endTime":1350.84,"body":"even though ostensibly their"},{"startTime":1347.27,"endTime":1350.84,"body":"CV's could be the same."},{"startTime":1350.84,"endTime":1352.76,"body":"Because you don't become"},{"startTime":1350.84,"endTime":1352.76,"body":"an expert overnight"},{"startTime":1352.76,"endTime":1354.44,"body":"and you don't do it without taking on"},{"startTime":1354.44,"endTime":1356.84,"body":"that massive social responsibility"},{"startTime":1356.84,"endTime":1359.66,"body":"of being prepared to do the right thing."},{"startTime":1359.66,"endTime":1361.103,"body":"That's why we need experts."},{"startTime":1363.23,"endTime":1365.57,"body":"So focused on the words necessity,"},{"startTime":1365.57,"endTime":1366.83,"body":"and we'll skip along this,"},{"startTime":1366.83,"endTime":1368.57,"body":"the thing that most people don't realize"},{"startTime":1368.57,"endTime":1370.4,"body":"in the family justice division,"},{"startTime":1370.4,"endTime":1371.9,"body":"I'm going to use the word justice"},{"startTime":1371.9,"endTime":1374.75,"body":"'cause I'm going to come back to"},{"startTime":1371.9,"endTime":1374.75,"body":"it at the end of this lecture."},{"startTime":1374.75,"endTime":1376.28,"body":"In the family justice system,"},{"startTime":1376.28,"endTime":1378.5,"body":"when you instruct a medical expert,"},{"startTime":1378.5,"endTime":1380.3,"body":"it is normally a joint expert."},{"startTime":1380.3,"endTime":1381.41,"body":"This is not shop along"},{"startTime":1381.41,"endTime":1383.78,"body":"and get an opinion that you favor."},{"startTime":1383.78,"endTime":1384.92,"body":"Everyone in the court,"},{"startTime":1384.92,"endTime":1388.49,"body":"that means the local"},{"startTime":1384.92,"endTime":1388.49,"body":"authority who's prosecuting,"},{"startTime":1388.49,"endTime":1389.84,"body":"the mother, the father,"},{"startTime":1389.84,"endTime":1392.333,"body":"or the boyfriend or the family member,"},{"startTime":1393.17,"endTime":1395.24,"body":"they'll all have their"},{"startTime":1393.17,"endTime":1395.24,"body":"own representatives."},{"startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1398.18,"body":"The child is always"},{"startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1398.18,"body":"separately represented."},{"startTime":1398.18,"endTime":1401.21,"body":"All of those who are parties"},{"startTime":1398.18,"endTime":1401.21,"body":"or interveners in the case"},{"startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1404.69,"body":"will need to agree on"},{"startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1404.69,"body":"the choice of the expert."},{"startTime":1404.69,"endTime":1406.25,"body":"They then combine a letter"},{"startTime":1406.25,"endTime":1408.41,"body":"of instruction and"},{"startTime":1406.25,"endTime":1408.41,"body":"questions to that expert."},{"startTime":1408.41,"endTime":1410.9,"body":"And then whatever the report says,"},{"startTime":1410.9,"endTime":1412.28,"body":"you are bound by it."},{"startTime":1412.28,"endTime":1415.49,"body":"You cannot hide an unfavorable report,"},{"startTime":1415.49,"endTime":1418.19,"body":"you cannot dismiss an unfavorable report"},{"startTime":1418.19,"endTime":1419.54,"body":"even when it's filed."},{"startTime":1419.54,"endTime":1421.25,"body":"You might be able to ask"},{"startTime":1419.54,"endTime":1421.25,"body":"for a second opinion,"},{"startTime":1421.25,"endTime":1422.7,"body":"but that's likely to be rare."},{"startTime":1423.65,"endTime":1425.54,"body":"So when you invest in an expert,"},{"startTime":1425.54,"endTime":1429.38,"body":"you are investing the most"},{"startTime":1425.54,"endTime":1429.38,"body":"trust and responsibility"},{"startTime":1429.38,"endTime":1432.41,"body":"you can in the perfect person."},{"startTime":1432.41,"endTime":1433.88,"body":"And we have issues finding experts"},{"startTime":1433.88,"endTime":1436.46,"body":"because there simply aren't enough."},{"startTime":1436.46,"endTime":1438.2,"body":"So we can move on, I think this one,"},{"startTime":1438.2,"endTime":1439.82,"body":"'cause in time?"},{"startTime":1439.82,"endTime":1441.65,"body":"- [Owen] And I think this is"},{"startTime":1439.82,"endTime":1441.65,"body":"the right way around, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1441.65,"endTime":1443.93,"body":"So this is what people are worried about."},{"startTime":1443.93,"endTime":1444.763,"body":"People are being worried,"},{"startTime":1444.763,"endTime":1446.03,"body":"as you would be if you got called"},{"startTime":1446.03,"endTime":1447.68,"body":"to court to talk about something,"},{"startTime":1447.68,"endTime":1450.11,"body":"you would be worried"},{"startTime":1447.68,"endTime":1450.11,"body":"that you are going to be,"},{"startTime":1450.11,"endTime":1452.502,"body":"what is the term, harassed?"},{"startTime":1452.502,"endTime":1454.4,"body":"- Bullied?"},{"startTime":1452.502,"endTime":1454.4,"body":"- Bullied."},{"startTime":1454.4,"endTime":1456.86,"body":"- Intimidated."},{"startTime":1454.4,"endTime":1456.86,"body":"- Yes, exactly."},{"startTime":1456.86,"endTime":1460.49,"body":"All of the things that you"},{"startTime":1456.86,"endTime":1460.49,"body":"least want to have happen."},{"startTime":1460.49,"endTime":1462.8,"body":"And there's a professional"},{"startTime":1460.49,"endTime":1462.8,"body":"aspect to this as well,"},{"startTime":1462.8,"endTime":1464.39,"body":"which is the one thing you really don't"},{"startTime":1464.39,"endTime":1466.52,"body":"want to be harassed and bullied about is"},{"startTime":1466.52,"endTime":1468.53,"body":"what you do as an everyday practice"},{"startTime":1468.53,"endTime":1471.53,"body":"and probably are quite"},{"startTime":1468.53,"endTime":1471.53,"body":"proud of what you do."},{"startTime":1471.53,"endTime":1472.58,"body":"So as a radiologist,"},{"startTime":1472.58,"endTime":1474.86,"body":"I'm supposed to be quite"},{"startTime":1472.58,"endTime":1474.86,"body":"good at looking at images."},{"startTime":1474.86,"endTime":1476.037,"body":"So for somebody to turn around and say,"},{"startTime":1476.037,"endTime":1478.64,"body":"\"Actually, you are not"},{"startTime":1476.037,"endTime":1478.64,"body":"very good at doing that,\""},{"startTime":1478.64,"endTime":1481.37,"body":"it's not just about"},{"startTime":1478.64,"endTime":1481.37,"body":"doing that in this case."},{"startTime":1481.37,"endTime":1483.14,"body":"There's a certain"},{"startTime":1481.37,"endTime":1483.14,"body":"professional aspect to that"},{"startTime":1483.14,"endTime":1484.94,"body":"which people take to heart."},{"startTime":1484.94,"endTime":1486.02,"body":"And of course one of the things"},{"startTime":1486.02,"endTime":1486.92,"body":"they don't want to do, therefore,"},{"startTime":1486.92,"endTime":1488.9,"body":"is expose themselves to this system."},{"startTime":1488.9,"endTime":1489.873,"body":"Why would you?"},{"startTime":1489.873,"endTime":1491.96,"body":"I think that's part of"},{"startTime":1489.873,"endTime":1491.96,"body":"what we want to talk about."},{"startTime":1491.96,"endTime":1493.07,"body":"Why would you do that?"},{"startTime":1493.07,"endTime":1495.83,"body":"Why do we need experts in the first place?"},{"startTime":1495.83,"endTime":1496.88,"body":"And hopefully we've convinced you"},{"startTime":1496.88,"endTime":1499.01,"body":"why experts are different to the people"},{"startTime":1499.01,"endTime":1500.57,"body":"who are looking after"},{"startTime":1499.01,"endTime":1500.57,"body":"children in the first place."},{"startTime":1500.57,"endTime":1503.12,"body":"They have a different role"},{"startTime":1500.57,"endTime":1503.12,"body":"and they are are providing"},{"startTime":1503.12,"endTime":1505.067,"body":"a different level of"},{"startTime":1503.12,"endTime":1505.067,"body":"knowledge to the court."},{"startTime":1505.067,"endTime":1507.38,"body":"But why would you want to do this?"},{"startTime":1507.38,"endTime":1509.41,"body":"The reality, maybe, is"},{"startTime":1507.38,"endTime":1509.41,"body":"a bit more like this,"},{"startTime":1509.41,"endTime":1513.53,"body":"is a little less adversarial, perhaps."},{"startTime":1513.53,"endTime":1514.76,"body":"- [Jo] I'd like to say it was a lot less."},{"startTime":1514.76,"endTime":1517.761,"body":"So I chose that image with the rottweiler"},{"startTime":1517.761,"endTime":1520.93,"body":"because sometimes, just in the same way"},{"startTime":1520.93,"endTime":1523.19,"body":"it can feel like that for the parents,"},{"startTime":1523.19,"endTime":1525.44,"body":"it can feel like that for"},{"startTime":1523.19,"endTime":1525.44,"body":"the experts or the medics"},{"startTime":1525.44,"endTime":1527.66,"body":"because they're going"},{"startTime":1525.44,"endTime":1527.66,"body":"from the medical field"},{"startTime":1527.66,"endTime":1528.77,"body":"where they're very comfortable."},{"startTime":1528.77,"endTime":1531.35,"body":"The hospital scenario where"},{"startTime":1528.77,"endTime":1531.35,"body":"they're very comfortable"},{"startTime":1531.35,"endTime":1533.12,"body":"into a courtroom scenario which"},{"startTime":1533.12,"endTime":1535.193,"body":"is not their home, that is mine."},{"startTime":1536.3,"endTime":1537.77,"body":"And they're going into an environment"},{"startTime":1537.77,"endTime":1539.06,"body":"where they lose control."},{"startTime":1539.06,"endTime":1541.13,"body":"And we are talking"},{"startTime":1539.06,"endTime":1541.13,"body":"about medics and experts"},{"startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1543.23,"body":"who because of their"},{"startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1543.23,"body":"qualifications and skills"},{"startTime":1543.23,"endTime":1545.3,"body":"are used to being in control"},{"startTime":1545.3,"endTime":1547.49,"body":"and it's very hard to relinquish that."},{"startTime":1547.49,"endTime":1549.92,"body":"So the natural fears"},{"startTime":1547.49,"endTime":1549.92,"body":"that a medic might have"},{"startTime":1549.92,"endTime":1553.04,"body":"that someone like me would be"},{"startTime":1549.92,"endTime":1553.04,"body":"a rottweiler with red lipstick"},{"startTime":1553.04,"endTime":1555.68,"body":"and attacking them in court."},{"startTime":1553.04,"endTime":1555.68,"body":"- We'll put that back up."},{"startTime":1555.68,"endTime":1557.101,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":1557.101,"endTime":1560.45,"body":"Is not the way actually we run cases."},{"startTime":1560.45,"endTime":1561.68,"body":"Sometimes that might happen"},{"startTime":1561.68,"endTime":1564.05,"body":"but that will be through a"},{"startTime":1561.68,"endTime":1564.05,"body":"lack of control of the advocate"},{"startTime":1564.05,"endTime":1565.82,"body":"or the lack of control of the judge."},{"startTime":1565.82,"endTime":1567.83,"body":"This is what I do."},{"startTime":1567.83,"endTime":1569.72,"body":"What I do when there's"},{"startTime":1567.83,"endTime":1569.72,"body":"an expert in the box"},{"startTime":1569.72,"endTime":1572.51,"body":"is I pull together all"},{"startTime":1569.72,"endTime":1572.51,"body":"of the knowledge I have"},{"startTime":1572.51,"endTime":1575.3,"body":"from the papers that"},{"startTime":1572.51,"endTime":1575.3,"body":"the expert doesn't have,"},{"startTime":1575.3,"endTime":1576.71,"body":"or if they do have,"},{"startTime":1576.71,"endTime":1578.75,"body":"haven't given them the attention"},{"startTime":1578.75,"endTime":1581.96,"body":"that has been brought out"},{"startTime":1578.75,"endTime":1581.96,"body":"by our cross examination."},{"startTime":1581.96,"endTime":1584.09,"body":"Okay, head tip, any of"},{"startTime":1581.96,"endTime":1584.09,"body":"you who are lawyers."},{"startTime":1584.09,"endTime":1587.54,"body":"You never, ever, ever have an expert"},{"startTime":1587.54,"endTime":1590.45,"body":"as the first group of witnesses."},{"startTime":1590.45,"endTime":1592.61,"body":"Invariably, someone suggests that happens"},{"startTime":1592.61,"endTime":1594.32,"body":"because that means you"},{"startTime":1592.61,"endTime":1594.32,"body":"can give the experts"},{"startTime":1594.32,"endTime":1598.16,"body":"the agreed slot where there's"},{"startTime":1594.32,"endTime":1598.16,"body":"less chaos and delays."},{"startTime":1598.16,"endTime":1599.66,"body":"Never do it."},{"startTime":1599.66,"endTime":1600.62,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":1600.62,"endTime":1602.27,"body":"Because that's no different from you"},{"startTime":1602.27,"endTime":1604.88,"body":"simply asking them"},{"startTime":1602.27,"endTime":1604.88,"body":"questions about the reports."},{"startTime":1604.88,"endTime":1606.95,"body":"Experts don't come to court"},{"startTime":1606.95,"endTime":1609.53,"body":"only to be asked about"},{"startTime":1606.95,"endTime":1609.53,"body":"what they have written."},{"startTime":1609.53,"endTime":1613.55,"body":"Experts come to court to"},{"startTime":1609.53,"endTime":1613.55,"body":"have the factual matrix"},{"startTime":1613.55,"endTime":1616.04,"body":"upon which they've given"},{"startTime":1613.55,"endTime":1616.04,"body":"their written opinion,"},{"startTime":1616.04,"endTime":1618.65,"body":"tested against the facts that have emerged"},{"startTime":1618.65,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"in the course of cross-examination"},{"startTime":1618.65,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"of the other witnesses."},{"startTime":1622.7,"endTime":1624.56,"body":"So for example, for me,"},{"startTime":1624.56,"endTime":1626.48,"body":"getting evidence from the family members"},{"startTime":1626.48,"endTime":1628.07,"body":"or the health visitor about"},{"startTime":1628.07,"endTime":1629.72,"body":"the child's stage of development"},{"startTime":1629.72,"endTime":1631.73,"body":"is really important."},{"startTime":1631.73,"endTime":1634.52,"body":"Getting a sense about how"},{"startTime":1631.73,"endTime":1634.52,"body":"the household dynamics works"},{"startTime":1634.52,"endTime":1636.41,"body":"is really important."},{"startTime":1636.41,"endTime":1640.7,"body":"Wanting to know how adequate"},{"startTime":1636.41,"endTime":1640.7,"body":"the notes are of the medics"},{"startTime":1640.7,"endTime":1643.13,"body":"upon which the experts have relied"},{"startTime":1643.13,"endTime":1645.14,"body":"is really important."},{"startTime":1645.14,"endTime":1648.62,"body":"For example with retinal"},{"startTime":1645.14,"endTime":1648.62,"body":"hemorrhaging to the eyes,"},{"startTime":1648.62,"endTime":1651.41,"body":"if there's been no"},{"startTime":1648.62,"endTime":1651.41,"body":"photographs taken of the eyes,"},{"startTime":1651.41,"endTime":1654.35,"body":"then already what I've got"},{"startTime":1651.41,"endTime":1654.35,"body":"is simply a description"},{"startTime":1654.35,"endTime":1658.73,"body":"and a drawing of an"},{"startTime":1654.35,"endTime":1658.73,"body":"orb with a few dots on."},{"startTime":1658.73,"endTime":1662.12,"body":"Already you have subjectivity"},{"startTime":1658.73,"endTime":1662.12,"body":"coming into that evidence"},{"startTime":1662.12,"endTime":1665.06,"body":"because in the heat and"},{"startTime":1662.12,"endTime":1665.06,"body":"motion of the hospital ward,"},{"startTime":1665.06,"endTime":1666.68,"body":"how many dots did they do?"},{"startTime":1666.68,"endTime":1670.73,"body":"Does the description of the"},{"startTime":1666.68,"endTime":1670.73,"body":"notes match the eye diagram?"},{"startTime":1670.73,"endTime":1672.62,"body":"And without the retinal imagery,"},{"startTime":1672.62,"endTime":1676.1,"body":"you are already relaying that"},{"startTime":1672.62,"endTime":1676.1,"body":"to an ophthalmologist expert"},{"startTime":1676.1,"endTime":1677.96,"body":"who's going to be basing"},{"startTime":1676.1,"endTime":1677.96,"body":"their own assumptions"},{"startTime":1677.96,"endTime":1680.99,"body":"on what might be an"},{"startTime":1677.96,"endTime":1680.99,"body":"inadequate or incomplete note."},{"startTime":1680.99,"endTime":1683.81,"body":"I can't put that point unless I've had"},{"startTime":1683.81,"endTime":1687.53,"body":"that factual, medical"},{"startTime":1683.81,"endTime":1687.53,"body":"and community evidence"},{"startTime":1687.53,"endTime":1690.32,"body":"called in front of me to"},{"startTime":1687.53,"endTime":1690.32,"body":"put the point in order"},{"startTime":1690.32,"endTime":1693.59,"body":"to prove the forensic case"},{"startTime":1690.32,"endTime":1693.59,"body":"to put it to the experts."},{"startTime":1693.59,"endTime":1695.75,"body":"So the value of an expert for me"},{"startTime":1695.75,"endTime":1698.45,"body":"is not to simply come"},{"startTime":1695.75,"endTime":1698.45,"body":"to give me the opinion"},{"startTime":1698.45,"endTime":1700.19,"body":"they've already prepared in writing."},{"startTime":1700.19,"endTime":1702.14,"body":"The value of the expert for me"},{"startTime":1702.14,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"is putting all of these"},{"startTime":1702.14,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"possibilities and probabilities"},{"startTime":1704.81,"endTime":1708.14,"body":"and trying to get the expert to consider"},{"startTime":1708.14,"endTime":1711.23,"body":"a hypothetical, in some situations,"},{"startTime":1711.23,"endTime":1714.47,"body":"but in others a"},{"startTime":1711.23,"endTime":1714.47,"body":"established, factual matrix"},{"startTime":1714.47,"endTime":1716.66,"body":"that is very different from that which"},{"startTime":1716.66,"endTime":1718.55,"body":"they have read in the papers."},{"startTime":1718.55,"endTime":1722.24,"body":"And the best experts, and"},{"startTime":1718.55,"endTime":1722.24,"body":"we have so many good ones,"},{"startTime":1722.24,"endTime":1726.23,"body":"the best experts like Mr."},{"startTime":1722.24,"endTime":1726.23,"body":"Cartlitch or Mr. Jeremoin,"},{"startTime":1726.23,"endTime":1729.38,"body":"or Mr. Richards or so many"},{"startTime":1726.23,"endTime":1729.38,"body":"of the others in the sphere,"},{"startTime":1729.38,"endTime":1732.47,"body":"they follow the story."},{"startTime":1732.47,"endTime":1735.47,"body":"They recalibrate the emphasis"},{"startTime":1735.47,"endTime":1736.97,"body":"they've placed on the written records"},{"startTime":1736.97,"endTime":1739.73,"body":"with what you are telling"},{"startTime":1736.97,"endTime":1739.73,"body":"them about what's changed."},{"startTime":1739.73,"endTime":1743.78,"body":"That is the real dynamic"},{"startTime":1739.73,"endTime":1743.78,"body":"that happens in court."},{"startTime":1743.78,"endTime":1747.26,"body":"So it's not him against me."},{"startTime":1747.26,"endTime":1751.16,"body":"It is a conversation, a"},{"startTime":1747.26,"endTime":1751.16,"body":"respectful conversation,"},{"startTime":1751.16,"endTime":1753.5,"body":"where the judge is the ultimate moderator,"},{"startTime":1753.5,"endTime":1757.04,"body":"where it's a process of advancing"},{"startTime":1753.5,"endTime":1757.04,"body":"argument and persuasion."},{"startTime":1757.04,"endTime":1759.2,"body":"That is what is so special"},{"startTime":1759.2,"endTime":1761.87,"body":"in terms of the particular"},{"startTime":1759.2,"endTime":1761.87,"body":"dialogue in a family court."},{"startTime":1761.87,"endTime":1763.58,"body":"And the reason it's so special"},{"startTime":1763.58,"endTime":1765.53,"body":"is unlike in the criminal arena,"},{"startTime":1765.53,"endTime":1768.47,"body":"we don't have our own experts by our side."},{"startTime":1768.47,"endTime":1771.32,"body":"We don't have the option to call a friend."},{"startTime":1771.32,"endTime":1774.5,"body":"All we have in the family"},{"startTime":1771.32,"endTime":1774.5,"body":"court is our own wits,"},{"startTime":1774.5,"endTime":1776.48,"body":"the intense amount of preparation we do,"},{"startTime":1776.48,"endTime":1778.46,"body":"which means we know what the data is"},{"startTime":1778.46,"endTime":1780.26,"body":"and what the factual lives are,"},{"startTime":1780.26,"endTime":1783.92,"body":"and we combine that, on"},{"startTime":1780.26,"endTime":1783.92,"body":"our feet, in real time."},{"startTime":1783.92,"endTime":1785.303,"body":"There's no pause button."},{"startTime":1786.26,"endTime":1789.23,"body":"In order to have an"},{"startTime":1786.26,"endTime":1789.23,"body":"exchange with the expert,"},{"startTime":1789.23,"endTime":1791.33,"body":"we're ultimately, even if you disagree,"},{"startTime":1791.33,"endTime":1793.94,"body":"there's a respectful dialogue between you."},{"startTime":1793.94,"endTime":1795.92,"body":"That's what coming to court is about."},{"startTime":1795.92,"endTime":1798.38,"body":"And that's why experts are so invaluable."},{"startTime":1798.38,"endTime":1800.21,"body":"And that is why they have to come to court"},{"startTime":1800.21,"endTime":1802.04,"body":"to answer questions."},{"startTime":1802.04,"endTime":1805.04,"body":"It is not simply to repeat"},{"startTime":1802.04,"endTime":1805.04,"body":"that is what is written."},{"startTime":1805.04,"endTime":1807.44,"body":"It is there to engage in a proper dialogue"},{"startTime":1807.44,"endTime":1810.29,"body":"because their report is nothing more"},{"startTime":1810.29,"endTime":1812.51,"body":"than the stepping stone upon which"},{"startTime":1812.51,"endTime":1815.393,"body":"they can then guide the"},{"startTime":1812.51,"endTime":1815.393,"body":"court using their expertise."},{"startTime":1818.651,"endTime":1819.65,"body":"- Now that's a really interesting point"},{"startTime":1819.65,"endTime":1821.72,"body":"because from my point of view,"},{"startTime":1821.72,"endTime":1823.55,"body":"I would think, well,"},{"startTime":1821.72,"endTime":1823.55,"body":"I've written a report,"},{"startTime":1823.55,"endTime":1825.71,"body":"everything's in the report,"},{"startTime":1823.55,"endTime":1825.71,"body":"that's it. I'm done."},{"startTime":1825.71,"endTime":1828.44,"body":"Why do I need to go to"},{"startTime":1825.71,"endTime":1828.44,"body":"court to to explain it?"},{"startTime":1828.44,"endTime":1829.61,"body":"I've written quite straightforwardly,"},{"startTime":1829.61,"endTime":1830.48,"body":"this is what happened."},{"startTime":1830.48,"endTime":1832.01,"body":"I've contextualized the problem,"},{"startTime":1832.01,"endTime":1833.99,"body":"I've done all the things"},{"startTime":1832.01,"endTime":1833.99,"body":"you've asked me to do."},{"startTime":1833.99,"endTime":1836.3,"body":"The last thing I want to"},{"startTime":1833.99,"endTime":1836.3,"body":"go now is to go to court,"},{"startTime":1836.3,"endTime":1838.898,"body":"to be harassed and to be questioned on"},{"startTime":1838.898,"endTime":1840.38,"body":"essentially on the things that"},{"startTime":1840.38,"endTime":1842.57,"body":"I haven't written or haven't said."},{"startTime":1842.57,"endTime":1844.82,"body":"So you are looking for"},{"startTime":1842.57,"endTime":1844.82,"body":"the gaps in my report"},{"startTime":1844.82,"endTime":1847.28,"body":"that I can't see that are there."},{"startTime":1847.28,"endTime":1848.93,"body":"So I think I've been as"},{"startTime":1847.28,"endTime":1848.93,"body":"comprehensive as possible"},{"startTime":1848.93,"endTime":1849.86,"body":"and somebody says, \"That's brilliant."},{"startTime":1849.86,"endTime":1851.33,"body":"Can you come to court to talk about it?\""},{"startTime":1851.33,"endTime":1853.48,"body":"No, that's exactly what"},{"startTime":1851.33,"endTime":1853.48,"body":"I don't want to do."},{"startTime":1855.416,"endTime":1857.116,"body":"So there is a problem here with..."},{"startTime":1858.11,"endTime":1860.24,"body":"So therefore the court arena,"},{"startTime":1860.24,"endTime":1863.03,"body":"because it's not familiar to medical staff"},{"startTime":1863.03,"endTime":1865.34,"body":"and it's the place they're"},{"startTime":1863.03,"endTime":1865.34,"body":"going to get questioned,"},{"startTime":1865.34,"endTime":1866.78,"body":"there is clearly an issue with people"},{"startTime":1866.78,"endTime":1868.85,"body":"wanting to volunteer to do that."},{"startTime":1868.85,"endTime":1871.1,"body":"And we have fewer and"},{"startTime":1868.85,"endTime":1871.1,"body":"fewer people thinking"},{"startTime":1871.1,"endTime":1872.78,"body":"that's a great place for me to be"},{"startTime":1872.78,"endTime":1874.08,"body":"and that's really where I want to do,"},{"startTime":1874.08,"endTime":1876.2,"body":"where I want to practice."},{"startTime":1876.2,"endTime":1877.97,"body":"So what happens if we don't engage"},{"startTime":1877.97,"endTime":1879.38,"body":"with the process from the"},{"startTime":1877.97,"endTime":1879.38,"body":"medical point of view?"},{"startTime":1879.38,"endTime":1880.91,"body":"Actually you then get rogue experts,"},{"startTime":1880.91,"endTime":1884.06,"body":"you get people from other"},{"startTime":1880.91,"endTime":1884.06,"body":"disciplines commenting on things"},{"startTime":1884.06,"endTime":1885.74,"body":"and you get people from abroad coming"},{"startTime":1885.74,"endTime":1888.02,"body":"and giving alternative views."},{"startTime":1888.02,"endTime":1888.89,"body":"- Yeah. I've got to do-"},{"startTime":1888.89,"endTime":1891.74,"body":"So Dr. Google is a really"},{"startTime":1888.89,"endTime":1891.74,"body":"great rogue expert,"},{"startTime":1891.74,"endTime":1892.7,"body":"can I just say?"},{"startTime":1892.7,"endTime":1895.82,"body":"There is nothing worse,"},{"startTime":1892.7,"endTime":1895.82,"body":"in my professional life,"},{"startTime":1895.82,"endTime":1898.137,"body":"than a client coming to"},{"startTime":1895.82,"endTime":1898.137,"body":"me towards me and saying,"},{"startTime":1898.137,"endTime":1900.59,"body":"\"I've got this report, I've got it from,\""},{"startTime":1900.59,"endTime":1902.75,"body":"I don't know, I won't mention the country"},{"startTime":1902.75,"endTime":1904.647,"body":"'cause it might demean the country,"},{"startTime":1904.647,"endTime":1906.71,"body":"\"But I've got it and it"},{"startTime":1904.647,"endTime":1906.71,"body":"says nothing happened."},{"startTime":1906.71,"endTime":1908.9,"body":"All right. I've got brittle bone disease,"},{"startTime":1908.9,"endTime":1910.22,"body":"temporary brittle bone disease.\""},{"startTime":1910.22,"endTime":1912.86,"body":"And you look at it, you think, oh god."},{"startTime":1912.86,"endTime":1916.19,"body":"Because there's already"},{"startTime":1912.86,"endTime":1916.19,"body":"a really good reason"},{"startTime":1916.19,"endTime":1918.47,"body":"why we go for experts that have got a CV"},{"startTime":1918.47,"endTime":1920.63,"body":"with citations that we can respect."},{"startTime":1920.63,"endTime":1923.09,"body":"And that's because it's too important"},{"startTime":1923.09,"endTime":1924.62,"body":"for it to be handed over to someone"},{"startTime":1924.62,"endTime":1926.42,"body":"with a particular agenda,"},{"startTime":1926.42,"endTime":1928.88,"body":"either in medicine or professionally"},{"startTime":1928.88,"endTime":1931.19,"body":"because that's not helping"},{"startTime":1928.88,"endTime":1931.19,"body":"the court ultimately"},{"startTime":1931.19,"endTime":1933.59,"body":"to understand what happened to the child."},{"startTime":1933.59,"endTime":1935.6,"body":"And from whatever"},{"startTime":1933.59,"endTime":1935.6,"body":"perspective we come from,"},{"startTime":1935.6,"endTime":1937.79,"body":"whether it's the barrister or the expert,"},{"startTime":1937.79,"endTime":1939.59,"body":"we are guided, believe it or not,"},{"startTime":1939.59,"endTime":1941.42,"body":"by the child's welfare."},{"startTime":1941.42,"endTime":1943.76,"body":"- So if you're qualified, experienced,"},{"startTime":1943.76,"endTime":1947.288,"body":"and independent, you could be an expert."},{"startTime":1947.288,"endTime":1949.16,"body":"And this is why the treating clinician,"},{"startTime":1949.16,"endTime":1951.05,"body":"if you like, probably can't be the expert"},{"startTime":1951.05,"endTime":1952.67,"body":"because they're not independent."},{"startTime":1952.67,"endTime":1954.29,"body":"They were involved in the case,"},{"startTime":1954.29,"endTime":1956.055,"body":"either emotionally involved or,"},{"startTime":1956.055,"endTime":1958.294,"body":"you can't criticize your own behavior"},{"startTime":1958.294,"endTime":1960.47,"body":"in an independent fashion as to"},{"startTime":1960.47,"endTime":1961.54,"body":"what may or may not have happened"},{"startTime":1961.54,"endTime":1964.37,"body":"or what maybe should or"},{"startTime":1961.54,"endTime":1964.37,"body":"should not have happened."},{"startTime":1964.37,"endTime":1965.87,"body":"So this comes down fundamentally."},{"startTime":1965.87,"endTime":1967.22,"body":"So why bother at all?"},{"startTime":1967.22,"endTime":1970.76,"body":"Why be the experts? Why be the lawyer?"},{"startTime":1970.76,"endTime":1972.543,"body":"So I think this is down to"},{"startTime":1972.543,"endTime":1974.84,"body":"fundamentally trying to help people."},{"startTime":1974.84,"endTime":1978.11,"body":"We think we have expertise"},{"startTime":1974.84,"endTime":1978.11,"body":"which could be useful."},{"startTime":1978.11,"endTime":1979.64,"body":"We've studied hard,"},{"startTime":1979.64,"endTime":1982.67,"body":"we work in everyday"},{"startTime":1979.64,"endTime":1982.67,"body":"practice in this context"},{"startTime":1982.67,"endTime":1984.38,"body":"and we're able to tell the court,"},{"startTime":1984.38,"endTime":1985.79,"body":"or whoever is interested,"},{"startTime":1985.79,"endTime":1988.07,"body":"these are the typical things"},{"startTime":1985.79,"endTime":1988.07,"body":"that go on in this hospital,"},{"startTime":1988.07,"endTime":1989.72,"body":"in this type of circumstance."},{"startTime":1989.72,"endTime":1991.46,"body":"These are the typical things we see"},{"startTime":1991.46,"endTime":1993.785,"body":"and this is how we typically manage them."},{"startTime":1993.785,"endTime":1995.9,"body":"Because we do that on a day-to-day basis,"},{"startTime":1995.9,"endTime":1997.13,"body":"we have expertise,"},{"startTime":1997.13,"endTime":1999.41,"body":"and I think that expertise is useful"},{"startTime":1999.41,"endTime":2002.23,"body":"to try and contextualize particular events"},{"startTime":2002.23,"endTime":2004.12,"body":"that we're being asked about in court."},{"startTime":2004.12,"endTime":2007.18,"body":"So how often does this"},{"startTime":2004.12,"endTime":2007.18,"body":"kind of head injury occur"},{"startTime":2007.18,"endTime":2008.56,"body":"in your normal everyday practice?"},{"startTime":2008.56,"endTime":2010.69,"body":"How often do you see this kind of fracture"},{"startTime":2010.69,"endTime":2012.07,"body":"in your normal everyday practice?"},{"startTime":2012.07,"endTime":2014.2,"body":"It's really useful to contextualize."},{"startTime":2014.2,"endTime":2015.34,"body":"So we think we're useful."},{"startTime":2015.34,"endTime":2016.51,"body":"The day we stop being useful"},{"startTime":2016.51,"endTime":2018.16,"body":"is the day we'll stop going."},{"startTime":2018.16,"endTime":2019.385,"body":"- I mean, I do it because"},{"startTime":2019.385,"endTime":2021.91,"body":"if you want to be a legal aid barrister,"},{"startTime":2021.91,"endTime":2025.24,"body":"as I am, specializing in child abuse law,"},{"startTime":2025.24,"endTime":2027.52,"body":"I could earn more money"},{"startTime":2025.24,"endTime":2027.52,"body":"by doing private law."},{"startTime":2027.52,"endTime":2030.16,"body":"A junior in chambers of"},{"startTime":2027.52,"endTime":2030.16,"body":"two or three years call"},{"startTime":2030.16,"endTime":2032.11,"body":"can earn more going to court for an hour"},{"startTime":2032.11,"endTime":2035.08,"body":"than I get paid in the"},{"startTime":2032.11,"endTime":2035.08,"body":"day in a dead baby case."},{"startTime":2035.08,"endTime":2037.72,"body":"Okay? That's the way the money is."},{"startTime":2037.72,"endTime":2039.25,"body":"So I don't follow the money."},{"startTime":2039.25,"endTime":2042.22,"body":"I follow the reason why I came"},{"startTime":2039.25,"endTime":2042.22,"body":"to the law in the first place"},{"startTime":2042.22,"endTime":2044.59,"body":"because I genuinely want to do something"},{"startTime":2044.59,"endTime":2046.66,"body":"that recognizes that the skills I have,"},{"startTime":2046.66,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"which came from a background"},{"startTime":2046.66,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"which is non-traditional,"},{"startTime":2049.18,"endTime":2050.92,"body":"had been given to me by the state."},{"startTime":2050.92,"endTime":2052.87,"body":"I had a state education."},{"startTime":2052.87,"endTime":2054.82,"body":"I was brought up by state welfare."},{"startTime":2054.82,"endTime":2056.02,"body":"I don't think it's right that"},{"startTime":2056.02,"endTime":2058.39,"body":"if you have money and advantage,"},{"startTime":2058.39,"endTime":2059.95,"body":"that you have an opportunity to do things"},{"startTime":2059.95,"endTime":2062.32,"body":"that others don't. And so"},{"startTime":2059.95,"endTime":2062.32,"body":"when I came to the bar,"},{"startTime":2062.32,"endTime":2064.72,"body":"I wanted to be involved in an area of law"},{"startTime":2064.72,"endTime":2067.12,"body":"that rebalanced some"},{"startTime":2064.72,"endTime":2067.12,"body":"of those inequalities."},{"startTime":2067.12,"endTime":2070.84,"body":"So of course the area I'm"},{"startTime":2067.12,"endTime":2070.84,"body":"drawn to is child abuse law"},{"startTime":2070.84,"endTime":2073.57,"body":"because out of all the vulnerable"},{"startTime":2070.84,"endTime":2073.57,"body":"members in our society,"},{"startTime":2073.57,"endTime":2075.64,"body":"the child is the most vulnerable."},{"startTime":2075.64,"endTime":2078.1,"body":"And then beyond that,"},{"startTime":2075.64,"endTime":2078.1,"body":"the units around them."},{"startTime":2078.1,"endTime":2080.11,"body":"So I'm a child abuse legal aid lawyer"},{"startTime":2080.11,"endTime":2082.21,"body":"because I think it really matters."},{"startTime":2082.21,"endTime":2085.15,"body":"And therefore, despite"},{"startTime":2082.21,"endTime":2085.15,"body":"the stresses and strains,"},{"startTime":2085.15,"endTime":2088.0,"body":"I do it day in and out and"},{"startTime":2085.15,"endTime":2088.0,"body":"there are stresses and strains"},{"startTime":2088.0,"endTime":2091.06,"body":"that are almost unimaginable at times."},{"startTime":2091.06,"endTime":2094.3,"body":"And so when you see us here on our stools,"},{"startTime":2094.3,"endTime":2096.49,"body":"I wish I had Dave Allen with"},{"startTime":2094.3,"endTime":2096.49,"body":"a bit of whiskey by my side,"},{"startTime":2096.49,"endTime":2097.96,"body":"but that will happen later."},{"startTime":2097.96,"endTime":2099.49,"body":"But when we are here,"},{"startTime":2099.49,"endTime":2101.376,"body":"it's because we genuinely think"},{"startTime":2101.376,"endTime":2104.14,"body":"that what we do is important."},{"startTime":2104.14,"endTime":2105.82,"body":"It doesn't make us important,"},{"startTime":2105.82,"endTime":2107.89,"body":"but the job is important."},{"startTime":2107.89,"endTime":2110.32,"body":"And that's why despite"},{"startTime":2107.89,"endTime":2110.32,"body":"the stresses and strains,"},{"startTime":2110.32,"endTime":2112.84,"body":"it's important for us to"},{"startTime":2110.32,"endTime":2112.84,"body":"come and explain what we do"},{"startTime":2112.84,"endTime":2114.97,"body":"because there's so much misinformation"},{"startTime":2114.97,"endTime":2117.37,"body":"and misunderstanding"},{"startTime":2114.97,"endTime":2117.37,"body":"about what experts do,"},{"startTime":2117.37,"endTime":2119.71,"body":"what medics do, and what barristers do."},{"startTime":2119.71,"endTime":2121.51,"body":"When fundamentally if we're engaged"},{"startTime":2121.51,"endTime":2123.04,"body":"in the family justice system,"},{"startTime":2123.04,"endTime":2125.14,"body":"it's because we want to do right"},{"startTime":2125.14,"endTime":2126.94,"body":"for as many people as we can do"},{"startTime":2126.94,"endTime":2129.19,"body":"and to give the judge"},{"startTime":2126.94,"endTime":2129.19,"body":"the information they need"},{"startTime":2129.19,"endTime":2130.873,"body":"to do right by the majority."},{"startTime":2132.005,"endTime":2134.86,"body":"- And one of the terms we use"},{"startTime":2132.005,"endTime":2134.86,"body":"is the voice of the child."},{"startTime":2134.86,"endTime":2137.29,"body":"So the mother can represent herself"},{"startTime":2137.29,"endTime":2138.73,"body":"or can get legal representation,"},{"startTime":2138.73,"endTime":2140.23,"body":"as can the father or stepfather,"},{"startTime":2140.23,"endTime":2143.83,"body":"whoever's involved who"},{"startTime":2140.23,"endTime":2143.83,"body":"speaks on behalf of the baby,"},{"startTime":2143.83,"endTime":2145.18,"body":"who tells the court what's happened"},{"startTime":2145.18,"endTime":2146.95,"body":"as far as the baby is concerned."},{"startTime":2146.95,"endTime":2148.81,"body":"Only the medical professionals"},{"startTime":2146.95,"endTime":2148.81,"body":"looking after them"},{"startTime":2148.81,"endTime":2150.25,"body":"can present some of that,"},{"startTime":2150.25,"endTime":2152.02,"body":"and only really experts"},{"startTime":2150.25,"endTime":2152.02,"body":"who are independent"},{"startTime":2152.02,"endTime":2153.73,"body":"can contextualize some of that"},{"startTime":2153.73,"endTime":2155.773,"body":"for the benefit of the court."},{"startTime":2156.82,"endTime":2158.41,"body":"So there are less and less people now"},{"startTime":2158.41,"endTime":2159.76,"body":"trying to do this work."},{"startTime":2159.76,"endTime":2163.45,"body":"Volunteering to do it and"},{"startTime":2159.76,"endTime":2163.45,"body":"coming forward to do it."},{"startTime":2163.45,"endTime":2164.41,"body":"I won't go into the details of"},{"startTime":2164.41,"endTime":2167.171,"body":"why there are fewer people doing it."},{"startTime":2167.171,"endTime":2169.42,"body":"We're trying to train more people,"},{"startTime":2169.42,"endTime":2171.43,"body":"help people get into the system."},{"startTime":2171.43,"endTime":2172.96,"body":"But one of the critical parts of this"},{"startTime":2172.96,"endTime":2174.7,"body":"is that delays in finding experts"},{"startTime":2174.7,"endTime":2176.923,"body":"leads to delays in cases being heard."},{"startTime":2178.42,"endTime":2182.68,"body":"And the impact of a delay of a child not,"},{"startTime":2182.68,"endTime":2184.99,"body":"or the case not coming to court,"},{"startTime":2184.99,"endTime":2187.72,"body":"is that what do you do with"},{"startTime":2184.99,"endTime":2187.72,"body":"a child in the interim?"},{"startTime":2187.72,"endTime":2189.43,"body":"So the safest thing to do, of course,"},{"startTime":2189.43,"endTime":2192.13,"body":"and safeguarding children is"},{"startTime":2189.43,"endTime":2192.13,"body":"what we're all about here,"},{"startTime":2192.13,"endTime":2193.48,"body":"the safest thing to do is"},{"startTime":2193.48,"endTime":2195.04,"body":"to place them in a different situation"},{"startTime":2195.04,"endTime":2197.799,"body":"until you can resolve all of the facts."},{"startTime":2197.799,"endTime":2200.35,"body":"But how long is reasonable to do that?"},{"startTime":2200.35,"endTime":2201.85,"body":"Three months as an interim measure"},{"startTime":2201.85,"endTime":2204.97,"body":"until a decision made, that's fine."},{"startTime":2204.97,"endTime":2209.05,"body":"Six months, nine months,"},{"startTime":2204.97,"endTime":2209.05,"body":"12 months in foster care?"},{"startTime":2209.05,"endTime":2211.12,"body":"And maybe of more than one sibling?"},{"startTime":2211.12,"endTime":2212.92,"body":"So there's a balance here between"},{"startTime":2212.92,"endTime":2214.09,"body":"how many experts we have,"},{"startTime":2214.09,"endTime":2215.29,"body":"how involved they can be,"},{"startTime":2215.29,"endTime":2217.18,"body":"how many can come to court,"},{"startTime":2217.18,"endTime":2220.18,"body":"how long it takes to"},{"startTime":2217.18,"endTime":2220.18,"body":"read all the information"},{"startTime":2220.18,"endTime":2224.26,"body":"and the reasonable delay"},{"startTime":2220.18,"endTime":2224.26,"body":"that that causes in a trial."},{"startTime":2224.26,"endTime":2225.58,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":2225.58,"endTime":2227.89,"body":"So just to conceptualize that,"},{"startTime":2227.89,"endTime":2230.47,"body":"if we are thinking about"},{"startTime":2227.89,"endTime":2230.47,"body":"there being a court hearing"},{"startTime":2230.47,"endTime":2232.727,"body":"from the point that the"},{"startTime":2230.47,"endTime":2232.727,"body":"child goes into hospital"},{"startTime":2232.727,"endTime":2234.76,"body":"to there being a decision"},{"startTime":2234.76,"endTime":2237.07,"body":"about whether the concerns"},{"startTime":2234.76,"endTime":2237.07,"body":"about the injuries"},{"startTime":2237.07,"endTime":2241.54,"body":"have been resolved of, 26"},{"startTime":2237.07,"endTime":2241.54,"body":"weeks let's take for example."},{"startTime":2241.54,"endTime":2244.45,"body":"Then every day in that child's life"},{"startTime":2244.45,"endTime":2247.378,"body":"is a year, or many, more"},{"startTime":2247.378,"endTime":2250.15,"body":"because a child can learn to walk in a day"},{"startTime":2250.15,"endTime":2251.71,"body":"and the parent misses it."},{"startTime":2251.71,"endTime":2253.9,"body":"A child can speak for the first time"},{"startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2255.28,"body":"and the parent misses it."},{"startTime":2255.28,"endTime":2257.68,"body":"The child ends up attaching to the person"},{"startTime":2257.68,"endTime":2261.31,"body":"that's bathing it, feeding"},{"startTime":2257.68,"endTime":2261.31,"body":"it, dressing it, loving it."},{"startTime":2261.31,"endTime":2262.54,"body":"And for all of that time,"},{"startTime":2262.54,"endTime":2266.68,"body":"if in fact the child has been"},{"startTime":2262.54,"endTime":2266.68,"body":"wrongly removed from a parent,"},{"startTime":2266.68,"endTime":2269.11,"body":"they're losing the chance"},{"startTime":2266.68,"endTime":2269.11,"body":"to be with that baby"},{"startTime":2269.11,"endTime":2271.18,"body":"and form the relationship."},{"startTime":2271.18,"endTime":2276.07,"body":"So you can't take a delay"},{"startTime":2271.18,"endTime":2276.07,"body":"of a week or a month lightly"},{"startTime":2276.07,"endTime":2277.87,"body":"in relation to a child's timeline"},{"startTime":2277.87,"endTime":2281.5,"body":"because they run where we"},{"startTime":2277.87,"endTime":2281.5,"body":"just potter and meander."},{"startTime":2281.5,"endTime":2282.76,"body":"So delays really matter."},{"startTime":2282.76,"endTime":2286.21,"body":"But if you are in a case"},{"startTime":2282.76,"endTime":2286.21,"body":"where there's a complex injury"},{"startTime":2286.21,"endTime":2288.22,"body":"and you're trying to unravel"},{"startTime":2286.21,"endTime":2288.22,"body":"from the child's body"},{"startTime":2288.22,"endTime":2289.72,"body":"what's happened, that's happened,"},{"startTime":2289.72,"endTime":2291.04,"body":"there's a real tension isn't there?"},{"startTime":2291.04,"endTime":2292.78,"body":"Between getting the right quality evidence"},{"startTime":2292.78,"endTime":2294.28,"body":"to come to the right decision."},{"startTime":2294.28,"endTime":2295.51,"body":"'Cause if you don't,"},{"startTime":2295.51,"endTime":2297.37,"body":"that temporary loss of your child,"},{"startTime":2297.37,"endTime":2298.99,"body":"of six months or thereabouts,"},{"startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2302.2,"body":"may become a permanent"},{"startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2302.2,"body":"one. Place for adoption."},{"startTime":2302.2,"endTime":2304.66,"body":"And then God, you want that time back."},{"startTime":2304.66,"endTime":2306.94,"body":"So that tension between how long it takes"},{"startTime":2306.94,"endTime":2308.74,"body":"to get the best quality evidence"},{"startTime":2308.74,"endTime":2310.84,"body":"between how long do we leave a child"},{"startTime":2310.84,"endTime":2312.91,"body":"languishing, potentially, in care,"},{"startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2315.76,"body":"forming relationships that"},{"startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2315.76,"body":"then have to be severed"},{"startTime":2315.76,"endTime":2317.83,"body":"if they're to be moved back to the family,"},{"startTime":2317.83,"endTime":2320.38,"body":"or then severed if they're"},{"startTime":2317.83,"endTime":2320.38,"body":"to move onto adoptive home"},{"startTime":2320.38,"endTime":2322.96,"body":"is not a calendar that we can forget."},{"startTime":2322.96,"endTime":2325.51,"body":"So I've grown up, and Leslie has grown up,"},{"startTime":2325.51,"endTime":2327.94,"body":"with a system of family justice"},{"startTime":2327.94,"endTime":2330.58,"body":"which we call the Rolls Royce system."},{"startTime":2330.58,"endTime":2332.89,"body":"It was where getting the right evidence"},{"startTime":2332.89,"endTime":2335.41,"body":"and discovering the truth was"},{"startTime":2335.41,"endTime":2338.14,"body":"why we came into the work we did."},{"startTime":2338.14,"endTime":2339.73,"body":"This quote is really important"},{"startTime":2339.73,"endTime":2342.79,"body":"and it's by someone who's a"},{"startTime":2339.73,"endTime":2342.79,"body":"bit of a hero to many of us"},{"startTime":2342.79,"endTime":2345.107,"body":"because it's one that"},{"startTime":2342.79,"endTime":2345.107,"body":"still guides our practice."},{"startTime":2345.107,"endTime":2348.04,"body":"\"A court hearing an"},{"startTime":2345.107,"endTime":2348.04,"body":"application of care orders"},{"startTime":2348.04,"endTime":2349.87,"body":"based on suspected physical injury"},{"startTime":2349.87,"endTime":2353.56,"body":"must follow the evidence"},{"startTime":2349.87,"endTime":2353.56,"body":"and pursue the inquiry"},{"startTime":2353.56,"endTime":2356.65,"body":"in whatever detail and for"},{"startTime":2353.56,"endTime":2356.65,"body":"however long is necessary"},{"startTime":2356.65,"endTime":2358.27,"body":"to arrive at the truth.\""},{"startTime":2358.27,"endTime":2360.61,"body":"Three phrases there I want"},{"startTime":2358.27,"endTime":2360.61,"body":"you to hold in your mind"},{"startTime":2360.61,"endTime":2362.98,"body":"for when we come back to them"},{"startTime":2360.61,"endTime":2362.98,"body":"at the end of this lecture."},{"startTime":2362.98,"endTime":2366.94,"body":"Must follow. Not may,"},{"startTime":2362.98,"endTime":2366.94,"body":"not if it's convenient."},{"startTime":2366.94,"endTime":2370.09,"body":"Must follow the evidence trial."},{"startTime":2370.09,"endTime":2372.77,"body":"Secondly, for however long is necessary"},{"startTime":2373.69,"endTime":2377.44,"body":"in order to arrive, and"},{"startTime":2373.69,"endTime":2377.44,"body":"thirdly, at the truth,"},{"startTime":2377.44,"endTime":2380.71,"body":"That was 2013, where are we now?"},{"startTime":2380.71,"endTime":2382.6,"body":"- So it's clear what the"},{"startTime":2380.71,"endTime":2382.6,"body":"overriding imperative"},{"startTime":2382.6,"endTime":2384.16,"body":"there is, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2384.16,"endTime":2385.75,"body":"- Get it right."},{"startTime":2384.16,"endTime":2385.75,"body":"- So the consequences"},{"startTime":2385.75,"endTime":2387.16,"body":"of removing the child inappropriately,"},{"startTime":2387.16,"endTime":2388.87,"body":"they become secondary measures"},{"startTime":2388.87,"endTime":2391.0,"body":"or secondary imperatives to finding out"},{"startTime":2391.0,"endTime":2393.07,"body":"the key part which is the truth."},{"startTime":2393.07,"endTime":2394.03,"body":"- [Jo] And this is a quote,"},{"startTime":2394.03,"endTime":2396.04,"body":"which I'm not going to read"},{"startTime":2394.03,"endTime":2396.04,"body":"out because you can read"},{"startTime":2396.04,"endTime":2397.72,"body":"and it's in the note I've given you."},{"startTime":2397.72,"endTime":2399.22,"body":"But what it points out is"},{"startTime":2399.22,"endTime":2401.32,"body":"that when you remove a"},{"startTime":2399.22,"endTime":2401.32,"body":"child from its family"},{"startTime":2401.32,"endTime":2402.55,"body":"and you place it for adoption,"},{"startTime":2402.55,"endTime":2407.44,"body":"you just don't lose that physical"},{"startTime":2402.55,"endTime":2407.44,"body":"connection for the child."},{"startTime":2407.44,"endTime":2409.84,"body":"It is a legal severance."},{"startTime":2409.84,"endTime":2412.18,"body":"You don't know if the child"},{"startTime":2409.84,"endTime":2412.18,"body":"becomes unwell or ill,"},{"startTime":2412.18,"endTime":2413.56,"body":"you don't know if your child goes on"},{"startTime":2413.56,"endTime":2414.61,"body":"to have its own children."},{"startTime":2414.61,"endTime":2417.52,"body":"You lose not just that child,"},{"startTime":2417.52,"endTime":2420.82,"body":"but every part of that child"},{"startTime":2417.52,"endTime":2420.82,"body":"growing into an adult's life."},{"startTime":2420.82,"endTime":2422.86,"body":"That's why it's so"},{"startTime":2420.82,"endTime":2422.86,"body":"serious to get it wrong."},{"startTime":2422.86,"endTime":2425.232,"body":"And that's why I'm worried about this."},{"startTime":2425.232,"endTime":2429.04,"body":"Rolls Royce versus a trotter van."},{"startTime":2429.04,"endTime":2432.22,"body":"Because if we cut corners,"},{"startTime":2432.22,"endTime":2433.81,"body":"it's still a car, right?"},{"startTime":2433.81,"endTime":2436.6,"body":"It still goes, sometimes."},{"startTime":2436.6,"endTime":2438.34,"body":"- But you might not want to"},{"startTime":2436.6,"endTime":2438.34,"body":"go to your wedding in it."},{"startTime":2438.34,"endTime":2440.333,"body":"- Yeah. And would you feel safe in it?"},{"startTime":2441.696,"endTime":2443.83,"body":"And so this is the consequence"},{"startTime":2441.696,"endTime":2443.83,"body":"we are now dealing with"},{"startTime":2443.83,"endTime":2445.36,"body":"in terms of delays."},{"startTime":2445.36,"endTime":2446.5,"body":"When you look at your notes,"},{"startTime":2446.5,"endTime":2448.78,"body":"you'll see some really graphic examples"},{"startTime":2448.78,"endTime":2453.78,"body":"and they're most current,"},{"startTime":2448.78,"endTime":2453.78,"body":"they're March 2022 and December."},{"startTime":2454.69,"endTime":2456.52,"body":"In this case the president was dealing"},{"startTime":2456.52,"endTime":2459.34,"body":"with the consequences"},{"startTime":2456.52,"endTime":2459.34,"body":"of an absence of experts"},{"startTime":2459.34,"endTime":2461.23,"body":"in respect of a dead baby."},{"startTime":2461.23,"endTime":2462.76,"body":"It's a case where a child had been"},{"startTime":2462.76,"endTime":2466.09,"body":"taken into care very"},{"startTime":2462.76,"endTime":2466.09,"body":"early on, 18 months old,"},{"startTime":2466.09,"endTime":2468.13,"body":"and there still wasn't the ability,"},{"startTime":2468.13,"endTime":2470.95,"body":"by the local authority"},{"startTime":2468.13,"endTime":2470.95,"body":"through the police services,"},{"startTime":2470.95,"endTime":2473.71,"body":"to present the court"},{"startTime":2470.95,"endTime":2473.71,"body":"with the most beginning"},{"startTime":2473.71,"endTime":2476.47,"body":"of the reports, of postmortem reports."},{"startTime":2476.47,"endTime":2478.84,"body":"Not because the pathologist hadn't turned"},{"startTime":2478.84,"endTime":2481.36,"body":"their initial report around"},{"startTime":2478.84,"endTime":2481.36,"body":"in a really quick time,"},{"startTime":2481.36,"endTime":2485.35,"body":"but once the pathologist"},{"startTime":2481.36,"endTime":2485.35,"body":"has done that first review,"},{"startTime":2485.35,"endTime":2487.24,"body":"they then send the samples off"},{"startTime":2487.24,"endTime":2490.24,"body":"to be investigated by other specialists"},{"startTime":2490.24,"endTime":2491.71,"body":"and then the specialists provide"},{"startTime":2491.71,"endTime":2493.66,"body":"their reports back to the pathologist."},{"startTime":2493.66,"endTime":2495.34,"body":"So the pace goes at the slowest."},{"startTime":2495.34,"endTime":2496.42,"body":"Can you see what I mean?"},{"startTime":2496.42,"endTime":2498.55,"body":"So you need all of the reports in"},{"startTime":2498.55,"endTime":2500.65,"body":"before the first person to see the child"},{"startTime":2500.65,"endTime":2502.69,"body":"then looks at everything"},{"startTime":2500.65,"endTime":2502.69,"body":"to do with the child"},{"startTime":2502.69,"endTime":2504.58,"body":"and comes to an overall conclusion."},{"startTime":2504.58,"endTime":2505.75,"body":"- And that's what you'd want, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2505.75,"endTime":2507.397,"body":"For everything to be"},{"startTime":2505.75,"endTime":2507.397,"body":"sent to the best experts"},{"startTime":2507.397,"endTime":2509.02,"body":"and the best people who"},{"startTime":2507.397,"endTime":2509.02,"body":"are going to give you"},{"startTime":2509.02,"endTime":2511.66,"body":"the most accurate information?"},{"startTime":2511.66,"endTime":2513.97,"body":"But when it comes to bone"},{"startTime":2511.66,"endTime":2513.97,"body":"pathology, for example,"},{"startTime":2513.97,"endTime":2515.44,"body":"you extract a piece of bone and say"},{"startTime":2515.44,"endTime":2516.7,"body":"is there a fracture there?"},{"startTime":2516.7,"endTime":2518.77,"body":"There's only one expert"},{"startTime":2516.7,"endTime":2518.77,"body":"in the UK who does that."},{"startTime":2518.77,"endTime":2519.643,"body":"- One."},{"startTime":2518.77,"endTime":2519.643,"body":"- One."},{"startTime":2520.75,"endTime":2522.52,"body":"Why? Because it's voluntary."},{"startTime":2522.52,"endTime":2524.53,"body":"This is outside of NHS work."},{"startTime":2524.53,"endTime":2527.56,"body":"The system operates outside of"},{"startTime":2524.53,"endTime":2527.56,"body":"day-to-day clinical practice"},{"startTime":2527.56,"endTime":2529.09,"body":"as you would expect."},{"startTime":2529.09,"endTime":2531.85,"body":"But it may be that we haven't"},{"startTime":2529.09,"endTime":2531.85,"body":"really resourced it properly"},{"startTime":2531.85,"endTime":2533.5,"body":"or thought about the implications"},{"startTime":2533.5,"endTime":2536.89,"body":"of people not volunteering"},{"startTime":2533.5,"endTime":2536.89,"body":"to take on those roles."},{"startTime":2536.89,"endTime":2539.08,"body":"So this person works very hard,"},{"startTime":2539.08,"endTime":2541.689,"body":"he does several hundreds of cases a year"},{"startTime":2541.689,"endTime":2545.77,"body":"but you can't go faster than"},{"startTime":2541.689,"endTime":2545.77,"body":"doing the best that you can."},{"startTime":2545.77,"endTime":2547.24,"body":"So the voluntary aspect"},{"startTime":2547.24,"endTime":2549.64,"body":"of expert witness work is problematic."},{"startTime":2549.64,"endTime":2551.29,"body":"And I'd like you to just"},{"startTime":2549.64,"endTime":2551.29,"body":"to consider yourself,"},{"startTime":2551.29,"endTime":2555.58,"body":"so where does the responsibility"},{"startTime":2551.29,"endTime":2555.58,"body":"for doing that work lie?"},{"startTime":2555.58,"endTime":2557.56,"body":"Who should be volunteering"},{"startTime":2557.56,"endTime":2561.61,"body":"and how do you make it involuntary?"},{"startTime":2561.61,"endTime":2563.77,"body":"You probably wouldn't really"},{"startTime":2561.61,"endTime":2563.77,"body":"want to make it involuntary,"},{"startTime":2563.77,"endTime":2565.81,"body":"but whose responsibility"},{"startTime":2563.77,"endTime":2565.81,"body":"is it to make sure"},{"startTime":2565.81,"endTime":2567.55,"body":"we have a body of experts?"},{"startTime":2567.55,"endTime":2569.26,"body":"Is it a medical responsibility?"},{"startTime":2569.26,"endTime":2571.78,"body":"Is it the NHS, which is"},{"startTime":2569.26,"endTime":2571.78,"body":"already under pressure"},{"startTime":2571.78,"endTime":2573.55,"body":"and has waiting lists for things?"},{"startTime":2573.55,"endTime":2576.19,"body":"Is there a family court justice imperative"},{"startTime":2576.19,"endTime":2578.44,"body":"to make sure that we have experts?"},{"startTime":2578.44,"endTime":2580.78,"body":"Is it society's"},{"startTime":2578.44,"endTime":2580.78,"body":"responsibility to make sure"},{"startTime":2580.78,"endTime":2584.041,"body":"we push these people forward"},{"startTime":2580.78,"endTime":2584.041,"body":"even if they don't want to be?"},{"startTime":2584.041,"endTime":2586.15,"body":"And what do the family"},{"startTime":2584.041,"endTime":2586.15,"body":"courts think of that?"},{"startTime":2586.15,"endTime":2588.1,"body":"So this is the head of"},{"startTime":2586.15,"endTime":2588.1,"body":"the family justice system"},{"startTime":2588.1,"endTime":2590.2,"body":"who says it's no longer an option"},{"startTime":2590.2,"endTime":2592.5,"body":"that the family courts"},{"startTime":2590.2,"endTime":2592.5,"body":"puts up with the delay,"},{"startTime":2593.923,"endTime":2595.51,"body":"but what should we do then?"},{"startTime":2595.51,"endTime":2598.87,"body":"Here it says that we"},{"startTime":2595.51,"endTime":2598.87,"body":"shouldn't wait for a year"},{"startTime":2598.87,"endTime":2600.55,"body":"for a post-mortem report to be done,"},{"startTime":2600.55,"endTime":2602.44,"body":"in which case we should"},{"startTime":2600.55,"endTime":2602.44,"body":"proceed without it."},{"startTime":2602.44,"endTime":2603.97,"body":"- [Jo] And he did."},{"startTime":2603.97,"endTime":2605.23,"body":"- [Owen] So what's the implication then"},{"startTime":2605.23,"endTime":2607.72,"body":"of proceeding without an expert report"},{"startTime":2607.72,"endTime":2609.02,"body":"on what actually happened?"},{"startTime":2609.91,"endTime":2612.37,"body":"- And you have to think about"},{"startTime":2609.91,"endTime":2612.37,"body":"what you might be missing."},{"startTime":2612.37,"endTime":2613.84,"body":"- [Leslie] Can I just ask, I mean,"},{"startTime":2613.84,"endTime":2617.44,"body":"is there perhaps an"},{"startTime":2613.84,"endTime":2617.44,"body":"argument for looking, again,"},{"startTime":2617.44,"endTime":2619.93,"body":"at experts from other jurisdictions?"},{"startTime":2619.93,"endTime":2621.461,"body":"- Yeah, I think so."},{"startTime":2621.461,"endTime":2624.25,"body":"- [Leslie] Because, why for example,"},{"startTime":2624.25,"endTime":2629.25,"body":"should a renowned expert in"},{"startTime":2624.25,"endTime":2629.25,"body":"Ireland or Canada or Australia"},{"startTime":2630.25,"endTime":2633.43,"body":"be any less able to report in these cases"},{"startTime":2633.43,"endTime":2635.122,"body":"if they're willing to,"},{"startTime":2635.122,"endTime":2637.9,"body":"then an expert in our jurisdiction?"},{"startTime":2637.9,"endTime":2638.98,"body":"- But we've got a problem in that"},{"startTime":2638.98,"endTime":2641.11,"body":"because that's what that case resolved."},{"startTime":2641.11,"endTime":2643.93,"body":"And the issue is that the"},{"startTime":2641.11,"endTime":2643.93,"body":"stages we're going through,"},{"startTime":2643.93,"endTime":2646.69,"body":"so if a baby has died in"},{"startTime":2643.93,"endTime":2646.69,"body":"suspicious circumstances,"},{"startTime":2646.69,"endTime":2648.91,"body":"the first authority that takes charge"},{"startTime":2648.91,"endTime":2651.04,"body":"of that investigation is the police."},{"startTime":2651.04,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"Only when the police have then"},{"startTime":2651.04,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"gathered their information,"},{"startTime":2653.98,"endTime":2656.5,"body":"decided whether to charge a parent"},{"startTime":2656.5,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"and then release that"},{"startTime":2656.5,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"information to the parent,"},{"startTime":2659.44,"endTime":2661.42,"body":"can then the parent, with their lawyers,"},{"startTime":2661.42,"endTime":2663.55,"body":"then interrogate the"},{"startTime":2661.42,"endTime":2663.55,"body":"material that's been obtained"},{"startTime":2663.55,"endTime":2666.46,"body":"and the family court comes a"},{"startTime":2663.55,"endTime":2666.46,"body":"long way behind that system."},{"startTime":2666.46,"endTime":2668.68,"body":"So the issue that the"},{"startTime":2666.46,"endTime":2668.68,"body":"president, in this case,"},{"startTime":2668.68,"endTime":2671.29,"body":"was discovering, was"},{"startTime":2668.68,"endTime":2671.29,"body":"rather elucidating upon,"},{"startTime":2671.29,"endTime":2674.661,"body":"is that the samples that are"},{"startTime":2671.29,"endTime":2674.661,"body":"taken from the postmortem"},{"startTime":2674.661,"endTime":2678.7,"body":"have to have an integrity, a"},{"startTime":2674.661,"endTime":2678.7,"body":"continuity of evidence chain."},{"startTime":2678.7,"endTime":2681.52,"body":"And so therefore there is a imperative"},{"startTime":2681.52,"endTime":2683.56,"body":"that doesn't go outside of the control"},{"startTime":2683.56,"endTime":2685.15,"body":"of the police investigation."},{"startTime":2685.15,"endTime":2686.95,"body":"So they won't release it."},{"startTime":2686.95,"endTime":2689.05,"body":"And there is in fact"},{"startTime":2686.95,"endTime":2689.05,"body":"absolutely no protocol,"},{"startTime":2689.05,"endTime":2690.31,"body":"ladies and gentlemen,"},{"startTime":2690.31,"endTime":2693.94,"body":"for how you can properly"},{"startTime":2690.31,"endTime":2693.94,"body":"exchange slides and samples"},{"startTime":2693.94,"endTime":2697.45,"body":"between experts who aren't"},{"startTime":2693.94,"endTime":2697.45,"body":"home office accredited."},{"startTime":2697.45,"endTime":2701.74,"body":"So you may have a superb"},{"startTime":2697.45,"endTime":2701.74,"body":"expert in Ireland,"},{"startTime":2701.74,"endTime":2704.65,"body":"but you're not allowed to have"},{"startTime":2701.74,"endTime":2704.65,"body":"them access to the material"},{"startTime":2704.65,"endTime":2706.773,"body":"because that's going to interrupt"},{"startTime":2706.773,"endTime":2710.05,"body":"the chain of evidence in"},{"startTime":2706.773,"endTime":2710.05,"body":"respect to the criminal trial."},{"startTime":2710.05,"endTime":2711.823,"body":"So you are absolutely stuffed."},{"startTime":2712.75,"endTime":2714.067,"body":"- And the idea that there are experts"},{"startTime":2714.067,"endTime":2716.5,"body":"floating around in other countries"},{"startTime":2716.5,"endTime":2718.51,"body":"ready and available but not in the UK"},{"startTime":2718.51,"endTime":2720.1,"body":"is also mythical."},{"startTime":2720.1,"endTime":2721.6,"body":"I'm asked to give expert evidence"},{"startTime":2721.6,"endTime":2723.4,"body":"in New Zealand or Australian"},{"startTime":2723.4,"endTime":2724.45,"body":"'cause they also can't find,"},{"startTime":2724.45,"endTime":2726.403,"body":"so this isn't a UK issue."},{"startTime":2728.32,"endTime":2729.4,"body":"- Overriding objective."},{"startTime":2729.4,"endTime":2731.29,"body":"I'm going to leave that"},{"startTime":2729.4,"endTime":2731.29,"body":"because it's in your notes,"},{"startTime":2731.29,"endTime":2733.27,"body":"but effectively it's how far,"},{"startTime":2733.27,"endTime":2735.61,"body":"it comes back to the question"},{"startTime":2733.27,"endTime":2735.61,"body":"Owen and I were talking about,"},{"startTime":2735.61,"endTime":2738.7,"body":"how long do you delay a trial"},{"startTime":2738.7,"endTime":2740.11,"body":"in order to get to the experts?"},{"startTime":2740.11,"endTime":2741.82,"body":"Where's that balance to be lied?"},{"startTime":2741.82,"endTime":2744.73,"body":"And you'll see in the notes,"},{"startTime":2741.82,"endTime":2744.73,"body":"we go through those issues."},{"startTime":2744.73,"endTime":2747.25,"body":"What's the necessity?"},{"startTime":2744.73,"endTime":2747.25,"body":"That's the key thing."},{"startTime":2747.25,"endTime":2750.1,"body":"Where's the cost, where's the proportion?"},{"startTime":2750.1,"endTime":2752.44,"body":"One really interesting"},{"startTime":2750.1,"endTime":2752.44,"body":"case, which is most current,"},{"startTime":2752.44,"endTime":2756.13,"body":"is what you do when in fact"},{"startTime":2752.44,"endTime":2756.13,"body":"you've got the experts there,"},{"startTime":2756.13,"endTime":2758.08,"body":"but in order to have a hearing"},{"startTime":2758.08,"endTime":2762.46,"body":"requires an excessive"},{"startTime":2758.08,"endTime":2762.46,"body":"expenditure on a court hearing"},{"startTime":2762.46,"endTime":2764.83,"body":"when the child, albeit under supervision,"},{"startTime":2764.83,"endTime":2765.85,"body":"has remained at the home."},{"startTime":2765.85,"endTime":2767.71,"body":"I'm not going to go into"},{"startTime":2765.85,"endTime":2767.71,"body":"the details of this,"},{"startTime":2767.71,"endTime":2771.28,"body":"but the decision was even"},{"startTime":2767.71,"endTime":2771.28,"body":"though the treating medics"},{"startTime":2771.28,"endTime":2773.47,"body":"and the experts have said"},{"startTime":2771.28,"endTime":2773.47,"body":"that the rib fractures"},{"startTime":2773.47,"endTime":2777.19,"body":"were likely to be non-accidental"},{"startTime":2773.47,"endTime":2777.19,"body":"and they weren't singular,"},{"startTime":2777.19,"endTime":2778.96,"body":"the judge in this case decided"},{"startTime":2778.96,"endTime":2780.91,"body":"that since the baby was at home"},{"startTime":2780.91,"endTime":2783.82,"body":"and since the parents had"},{"startTime":2780.91,"endTime":2783.82,"body":"done well under supervision,"},{"startTime":2783.82,"endTime":2786.22,"body":"and since the parents, even"},{"startTime":2783.82,"endTime":2786.22,"body":"if findings were found,"},{"startTime":2786.22,"endTime":2788.2,"body":"wouldn't accept the findings,"},{"startTime":2788.2,"endTime":2790.39,"body":"and even if they did hurt their child,"},{"startTime":2790.39,"endTime":2792.28,"body":"it was likely to be a one-off incidence,"},{"startTime":2792.28,"endTime":2794.14,"body":"which was unlikely to have happened,"},{"startTime":2794.14,"endTime":2796.392,"body":"all without hearing the evidence."},{"startTime":2796.392,"endTime":2798.49,"body":"The decision was that you didn't need"},{"startTime":2798.49,"endTime":2800.65,"body":"to have those nine days of court time"},{"startTime":2800.65,"endTime":2802.3,"body":"and the local authority were guided"},{"startTime":2802.3,"endTime":2803.65,"body":"towards withdrawing the case."},{"startTime":2803.65,"endTime":2804.973,"body":"Now is that right?"},{"startTime":2805.96,"endTime":2808.54,"body":"Because the reason we"},{"startTime":2805.96,"endTime":2808.54,"body":"have these investigations"},{"startTime":2808.54,"endTime":2810.406,"body":"into things like rib fractures"},{"startTime":2810.406,"endTime":2813.16,"body":"is that we see the tip of the iceberg."},{"startTime":2813.16,"endTime":2816.22,"body":"It's the dynamics between the carers"},{"startTime":2816.22,"endTime":2820.24,"body":"that if the child has been held and shaken"},{"startTime":2820.24,"endTime":2822.85,"body":"and may or may not have"},{"startTime":2820.24,"endTime":2822.85,"body":"suffered injury, who knows,"},{"startTime":2822.85,"endTime":2824.74,"body":"it's how that came to arise"},{"startTime":2824.74,"endTime":2827.607,"body":"because if those dynamics haven't changed,"},{"startTime":2827.607,"endTime":2829.6,"body":"then the child is in a"},{"startTime":2827.607,"endTime":2829.6,"body":"situation of ongoing risk"},{"startTime":2829.6,"endTime":2830.92,"body":"and we all know the difference between"},{"startTime":2830.92,"endTime":2833.401,"body":"having a newborn between having"},{"startTime":2833.401,"endTime":2837.19,"body":"a toddler with tantrums"},{"startTime":2833.401,"endTime":2837.19,"body":"or the other issues."},{"startTime":2837.19,"endTime":2839.77,"body":"So is that the right way to do things?"},{"startTime":2839.77,"endTime":2841.51,"body":"In order to make sure that we get through"},{"startTime":2841.51,"endTime":2843.64,"body":"the cases as soon as possible?"},{"startTime":2843.64,"endTime":2844.6,"body":"I don't have the answer,"},{"startTime":2844.6,"endTime":2846.58,"body":"but I'm making sure you know"},{"startTime":2846.58,"endTime":2848.83,"body":"that that is what is"},{"startTime":2846.58,"endTime":2848.83,"body":"going to be a discussion"},{"startTime":2848.83,"endTime":2851.006,"body":"that's going to be had in the courtrooms."},{"startTime":2851.006,"endTime":2851.839,"body":"- And this is the point, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2851.839,"endTime":2854.8,"body":"Whether it's the process"},{"startTime":2851.839,"endTime":2854.8,"body":"will do justice to the case."},{"startTime":2854.8,"endTime":2856.6,"body":"So is justice for the child"},{"startTime":2856.6,"endTime":2858.58,"body":"or for the family the imperative?"},{"startTime":2858.58,"endTime":2861.01,"body":"Or is it actually we need to"},{"startTime":2858.58,"endTime":2861.01,"body":"speed things up a little bit"},{"startTime":2861.01,"endTime":2863.11,"body":"because we've got too many things waiting?"},{"startTime":2863.11,"endTime":2866.05,"body":"- Now this, remember I told"},{"startTime":2863.11,"endTime":2866.05,"body":"you to hold those words in mind"},{"startTime":2866.05,"endTime":2870.58,"body":"because if you compare"},{"startTime":2866.05,"endTime":2870.58,"body":"the Baker decision of 2013"},{"startTime":2870.58,"endTime":2873.25,"body":"and then you compare it"},{"startTime":2870.58,"endTime":2873.25,"body":"with what we have here,"},{"startTime":2873.25,"endTime":2876.04,"body":"it's a question of"},{"startTime":2873.25,"endTime":2876.04,"body":"looking about fact finding"},{"startTime":2876.04,"endTime":2877.09,"body":"and it being proportionate"},{"startTime":2877.09,"endTime":2878.53,"body":"and there's a particular quote here."},{"startTime":2878.53,"endTime":2880.33,"body":"I think it comes afterwards."},{"startTime":2880.33,"endTime":2882.343,"body":"Okay. Yep, next here."},{"startTime":2884.17,"endTime":2885.003,"body":"Next one."},{"startTime":2886.03,"endTime":2887.65,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2887.65,"endTime":2889.42,"body":"This is what's key,"},{"startTime":2889.42,"endTime":2891.22,"body":"because what this judgment does"},{"startTime":2891.22,"endTime":2894.28,"body":"is blows apart the concept"},{"startTime":2891.22,"endTime":2894.28,"body":"that the court's inquiry"},{"startTime":2894.28,"endTime":2898.0,"body":"is into investigating"},{"startTime":2894.28,"endTime":2898.0,"body":"the truth of the outcome."},{"startTime":2898.0,"endTime":2900.52,"body":"Now, in many ways I absolutely"},{"startTime":2898.0,"endTime":2900.52,"body":"see where she's coming from"},{"startTime":2900.52,"endTime":2902.29,"body":"because there is a misconception"},{"startTime":2902.29,"endTime":2904.45,"body":"that going to court means"},{"startTime":2902.29,"endTime":2904.45,"body":"that through inquiry,"},{"startTime":2904.45,"endTime":2906.91,"body":"you are going to arrive at the truth."},{"startTime":2906.91,"endTime":2909.01,"body":"Mr. Justice Hedley as he was then,"},{"startTime":2909.01,"endTime":2910.39,"body":"hit it on the nail of the head."},{"startTime":2910.39,"endTime":2912.53,"body":"The judge can only make the decision"},{"startTime":2913.75,"endTime":2915.403,"body":"in the main dependent on the evidence"},{"startTime":2915.403,"endTime":2917.86,"body":"that is presented to them."},{"startTime":2917.86,"endTime":2919.33,"body":"They make the best decision they can,"},{"startTime":2919.33,"endTime":2921.04,"body":"that may be the wrong decision,"},{"startTime":2921.04,"endTime":2922.81,"body":"but they do it on the"},{"startTime":2921.04,"endTime":2922.81,"body":"best quality evidence"},{"startTime":2922.81,"endTime":2925.54,"body":"and they come to a decision"},{"startTime":2922.81,"endTime":2925.54,"body":"based on that basis."},{"startTime":2925.54,"endTime":2929.8,"body":"Coming and arriving at an"},{"startTime":2925.54,"endTime":2929.8,"body":"answer, which is the truth,"},{"startTime":2929.8,"endTime":2933.28,"body":"is a concept that only"},{"startTime":2929.8,"endTime":2933.28,"body":"the parents will ever know"},{"startTime":2933.28,"endTime":2936.19,"body":"matches the reality of the situation."},{"startTime":2936.19,"endTime":2937.66,"body":"But nonetheless,"},{"startTime":2937.66,"endTime":2940.72,"body":"for the child to know"},{"startTime":2937.66,"endTime":2940.72,"body":"whether they are placed,"},{"startTime":2940.72,"endTime":2942.4,"body":"for example, in adoptive placement"},{"startTime":2942.4,"endTime":2944.92,"body":"because they have been seriously abused"},{"startTime":2944.92,"endTime":2947.8,"body":"or whether the parents"},{"startTime":2944.92,"endTime":2947.8,"body":"adjust to that outcome,"},{"startTime":2947.8,"endTime":2950.11,"body":"that is about why the court system"},{"startTime":2950.11,"endTime":2953.74,"body":"has to be robust and frank and full."},{"startTime":2953.74,"endTime":2955.04,"body":"And so this is the particular quote."},{"startTime":2955.04,"endTime":2957.7,"body":"\"It's sometimes argued"},{"startTime":2955.04,"endTime":2957.7,"body":"in these circumstances,\""},{"startTime":2957.7,"endTime":2959.83,"body":"it's not sometimes argued."},{"startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2962.05,"body":"That was said by a very,"},{"startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2962.05,"body":"very, very senior judge"},{"startTime":2962.05,"endTime":2963.077,"body":"who's now in the court of appeal."},{"startTime":2963.077,"endTime":2965.89,"body":"\"It's sometimes argued"},{"startTime":2963.077,"endTime":2965.89,"body":"in these circumstances"},{"startTime":2965.89,"endTime":2967.72,"body":"that the parties and"},{"startTime":2965.89,"endTime":2967.72,"body":"the child need to know"},{"startTime":2967.72,"endTime":2969.39,"body":"the truth of what has happened."},{"startTime":2969.39,"endTime":2971.26,"body":"In this case, the benefit of finding out"},{"startTime":2971.26,"endTime":2973.63,"body":"what happened is largely illusory."},{"startTime":2973.63,"endTime":2975.55,"body":"The child's too young,"},{"startTime":2975.55,"endTime":2978.1,"body":"highly unlikely the parents"},{"startTime":2975.55,"endTime":2978.1,"body":"would accept the findings."},{"startTime":2978.1,"endTime":2980.95,"body":"I can't see in justification"},{"startTime":2978.1,"endTime":2980.95,"body":"for a nine day finding"},{"startTime":2980.95,"endTime":2983.47,"body":"of fact hearing so that at"},{"startTime":2980.95,"endTime":2983.47,"body":"some point in the future"},{"startTime":2983.47,"endTime":2985.3,"body":"X can know the truth.\""},{"startTime":2985.3,"endTime":2988.18,"body":"Now in this case, the"},{"startTime":2985.3,"endTime":2988.18,"body":"child remained at home."},{"startTime":2988.18,"endTime":2989.71,"body":"Think if that was reversed"},{"startTime":2989.71,"endTime":2991.78,"body":"and the child had been removed"},{"startTime":2991.78,"endTime":2993.79,"body":"in the absence of a fact finding hearing"},{"startTime":2993.79,"endTime":2995.709,"body":"a place for adoption."},{"startTime":2995.709,"endTime":2998.683,"body":"Where does the truth and"},{"startTime":2995.709,"endTime":2998.683,"body":"justice in that outcome lie?"},{"startTime":3001.115,"endTime":3003.66,"body":"- And do you think there are"},{"startTime":3001.115,"endTime":3003.66,"body":"inequalities in those cases"},{"startTime":3003.66,"endTime":3005.43,"body":"in which this might be applied?"},{"startTime":3005.43,"endTime":3006.36,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":3006.36,"endTime":3008.28,"body":"I think what's happening now is that"},{"startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3012.36,"body":"because cases are taking longer"},{"startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3012.36,"body":"and longer to be determined,"},{"startTime":3012.36,"endTime":3015.3,"body":"what used to be an aspirational aim,"},{"startTime":3015.3,"endTime":3016.92,"body":"which was being achieved,"},{"startTime":3016.92,"endTime":3019.74,"body":"I think back pre-COVID, probably 2015, 16,"},{"startTime":3019.74,"endTime":3021.12,"body":"look at your notes,"},{"startTime":3021.12,"endTime":3024.0,"body":"of trying to get the"},{"startTime":3021.12,"endTime":3024.0,"body":"resolution of most cases,"},{"startTime":3024.0,"endTime":3027.18,"body":"bar the very serious,"},{"startTime":3024.0,"endTime":3027.18,"body":"resolved in 26 weeks,"},{"startTime":3027.18,"endTime":3029.22,"body":"has now become entirely hopeless."},{"startTime":3029.22,"endTime":3030.99,"body":"You know, we're well beyond that."},{"startTime":3030.99,"endTime":3032.34,"body":"We're talking 72 weeks,"},{"startTime":3032.34,"endTime":3034.02,"body":"we're talking any number of weeks."},{"startTime":3034.02,"endTime":3036.72,"body":"It's as long as any court system can allow"},{"startTime":3036.72,"endTime":3038.88,"body":"and it varies from courtroom to courtroom."},{"startTime":3038.88,"endTime":3040.71,"body":"So now the real issue is"},{"startTime":3040.71,"endTime":3042.54,"body":"when do we start to cut corners"},{"startTime":3042.54,"endTime":3044.31,"body":"to make sure we bring cases down?"},{"startTime":3044.31,"endTime":3048.96,"body":"Do we do the best quality"},{"startTime":3044.31,"endTime":3048.96,"body":"justice for the majority"},{"startTime":3048.96,"endTime":3051.66,"body":"by cutting things down to the bone?"},{"startTime":3051.66,"endTime":3053.19,"body":"Is that good enough?"},{"startTime":3053.19,"endTime":3055.5,"body":"Or do we run the risk"},{"startTime":3053.19,"endTime":3055.5,"body":"in those circumstances"},{"startTime":3055.5,"endTime":3057.87,"body":"of ostensibly thinking that a simple case,"},{"startTime":3057.87,"endTime":3060.51,"body":"for example, there may"},{"startTime":3057.87,"endTime":3060.51,"body":"be bruises to a child,"},{"startTime":3060.51,"endTime":3061.83,"body":"there may be a single fracture,"},{"startTime":3061.83,"endTime":3063.42,"body":"there may be nothing but the mother"},{"startTime":3063.42,"endTime":3066.18,"body":"and the boyfriend in the house."},{"startTime":3066.18,"endTime":3069.78,"body":"It seems simple because"},{"startTime":3066.18,"endTime":3069.78,"body":"she's not saying anything,"},{"startTime":3069.78,"endTime":3072.18,"body":"he may have previous convictions."},{"startTime":3072.18,"endTime":3073.32,"body":"But it's not so simple"},{"startTime":3073.32,"endTime":3075.24,"body":"if the mother's got learning difficulties"},{"startTime":3075.24,"endTime":3077.37,"body":"and isn't able to properly"},{"startTime":3075.24,"endTime":3077.37,"body":"explain what's happened."},{"startTime":3077.37,"endTime":3079.65,"body":"So her account has never been given."},{"startTime":3079.65,"endTime":3081.36,"body":"It's not so simple,"},{"startTime":3081.36,"endTime":3083.7,"body":"if in fact you have"},{"startTime":3081.36,"endTime":3083.7,"body":"data which demonstrates"},{"startTime":3083.7,"endTime":3085.44,"body":"that she was out of the house at the time"},{"startTime":3085.44,"endTime":3087.657,"body":"and therefore not only did"},{"startTime":3085.44,"endTime":3087.657,"body":"she not harm the child,"},{"startTime":3087.657,"endTime":3089.43,"body":"but there was a failure to protect"},{"startTime":3089.43,"endTime":3090.42,"body":"because she wasn't there"},{"startTime":3090.42,"endTime":3093.03,"body":"and she called the ambulance"},{"startTime":3090.42,"endTime":3093.03,"body":"when she gets back."},{"startTime":3093.03,"endTime":3096.48,"body":"Ostensibly simple cases"},{"startTime":3093.03,"endTime":3096.48,"body":"involving fractures"},{"startTime":3096.48,"endTime":3099.6,"body":"may be the most"},{"startTime":3096.48,"endTime":3099.6,"body":"fundamentally disadvantaged"},{"startTime":3099.6,"endTime":3101.61,"body":"in terms of trying to"},{"startTime":3099.6,"endTime":3101.61,"body":"get to a fair outcome"},{"startTime":3101.61,"endTime":3103.293,"body":"because they look so cut and dry."},{"startTime":3104.34,"endTime":3105.66,"body":"They're the ones I'm worried about,"},{"startTime":3105.66,"endTime":3106.86,"body":"not the ones I do,"},{"startTime":3106.86,"endTime":3109.05,"body":"which involve dead babies"},{"startTime":3106.86,"endTime":3109.05,"body":"or serious injuries"},{"startTime":3109.05,"endTime":3111.39,"body":"because in those cases I'm very confident"},{"startTime":3111.39,"endTime":3115.47,"body":"we will always be given the"},{"startTime":3111.39,"endTime":3115.47,"body":"luxury of time and expertise,"},{"startTime":3115.47,"endTime":3117.42,"body":"because they scream seriousness,"},{"startTime":3117.42,"endTime":3119.85,"body":"which is why I'm in in the first place."},{"startTime":3119.85,"endTime":3122.52,"body":"It's the ones that don't"},{"startTime":3119.85,"endTime":3122.52,"body":"cross that barrier,"},{"startTime":3122.52,"endTime":3125.37,"body":"look simple, but may ultimately lead,"},{"startTime":3125.37,"endTime":3127.14,"body":"not just to one child being removed,"},{"startTime":3127.14,"endTime":3128.82,"body":"but a whole host of children removed"},{"startTime":3128.82,"endTime":3131.46,"body":"because we know what"},{"startTime":3128.82,"endTime":3131.46,"body":"happens in those cases."},{"startTime":3131.46,"endTime":3134.25,"body":"It's through the agony of loss of a baby"},{"startTime":3134.25,"endTime":3136.14,"body":"the woman goes on to have another."},{"startTime":3136.14,"endTime":3137.88,"body":"And it's removed because the findings"},{"startTime":3137.88,"endTime":3139.68,"body":"have already been made in the first"},{"startTime":3139.68,"endTime":3142.533,"body":"and then she goes on to"},{"startTime":3139.68,"endTime":3142.533,"body":"have another and another."},{"startTime":3143.58,"endTime":3146.37,"body":"Children after children"},{"startTime":3143.58,"endTime":3146.37,"body":"removed on a cyclical basis"},{"startTime":3146.37,"endTime":3148.44,"body":"if the first judgment that's given"},{"startTime":3148.44,"endTime":3150.33,"body":"isn't given on a factually"},{"startTime":3150.33,"endTime":3153.69,"body":"and forensically tested environment"},{"startTime":3153.69,"endTime":3155.31,"body":"and changes aren't taken into account,"},{"startTime":3155.31,"endTime":3157.62,"body":"they're the ones I'm really worried about."},{"startTime":3157.62,"endTime":3161.76,"body":"And I don't believe the"},{"startTime":3157.62,"endTime":3161.76,"body":"trotter system, the van,"},{"startTime":3161.76,"endTime":3163.71,"body":"is likely to be strong enough to carry"},{"startTime":3163.71,"endTime":3165.42,"body":"those type of vulnerable clients"},{"startTime":3165.42,"endTime":3167.34,"body":"through to the outcome"},{"startTime":3165.42,"endTime":3167.34,"body":"they really deserve,"},{"startTime":3167.34,"endTime":3169.62,"body":"which is a proper investigation into"},{"startTime":3169.62,"endTime":3172.563,"body":"what, when, how, and why."},{"startTime":3173.67,"endTime":3175.5,"body":"That's why it's necessary to make sure"},{"startTime":3175.5,"endTime":3177.81,"body":"we don't cut things down to the bones."},{"startTime":3177.81,"endTime":3180.12,"body":"And the reason this lecture is so timely"},{"startTime":3180.12,"endTime":3182.73,"body":"is because of the pressure"},{"startTime":3180.12,"endTime":3182.73,"body":"on the court system."},{"startTime":3182.73,"endTime":3184.71,"body":"We're already hearing rumors"},{"startTime":3184.71,"endTime":3186.93,"body":"that the guidance being"},{"startTime":3184.71,"endTime":3186.93,"body":"given out by local courts"},{"startTime":3186.93,"endTime":3189.24,"body":"is to, let's not have experts"},{"startTime":3189.24,"endTime":3190.71,"body":"if the delay in getting them in"},{"startTime":3190.71,"endTime":3192.09,"body":"to poring the reports is so long."},{"startTime":3192.09,"endTime":3195.18,"body":"Let's have a treating medic."},{"startTime":3192.09,"endTime":3195.18,"body":"Why do we need experts?"},{"startTime":3195.18,"endTime":3196.35,"body":"If we have an expert,"},{"startTime":3196.35,"endTime":3198.66,"body":"why do we need them to be cross-examined?"},{"startTime":3198.66,"endTime":3200.79,"body":"Ask them questions by paper."},{"startTime":3200.79,"endTime":3202.08,"body":"That doesn't deal with the issue"},{"startTime":3202.08,"endTime":3203.52,"body":"I've just pointed out."},{"startTime":3203.52,"endTime":3206.04,"body":"There is no point having"},{"startTime":3203.52,"endTime":3206.04,"body":"an expert come to court"},{"startTime":3206.04,"endTime":3207.27,"body":"to ask them simply about"},{"startTime":3207.27,"endTime":3208.86,"body":"that which you've already considered."},{"startTime":3208.86,"endTime":3210.51,"body":"They come to court to have"},{"startTime":3210.51,"endTime":3212.46,"body":"the tested evidence put to them"},{"startTime":3212.46,"endTime":3215.01,"body":"because that changes opinions"},{"startTime":3215.01,"endTime":3217.23,"body":"and that changes outcomes."},{"startTime":3217.23,"endTime":3220.53,"body":"So there can be no diminution, I believe,"},{"startTime":3220.53,"endTime":3222.3,"body":"in the right to put proper,"},{"startTime":3222.3,"endTime":3225.54,"body":"forensically established"},{"startTime":3222.3,"endTime":3225.54,"body":"questions to an expert"},{"startTime":3225.54,"endTime":3227.85,"body":"because only by that way"},{"startTime":3225.54,"endTime":3227.85,"body":"can we test their opinion,"},{"startTime":3227.85,"endTime":3229.8,"body":"which is otherwise so critical"},{"startTime":3229.8,"endTime":3231.51,"body":"to the outcome of the courts."},{"startTime":3231.51,"endTime":3233.574,"body":"That's why this lecture is so timely"},{"startTime":3233.574,"endTime":3235.593,"body":"because it's starting to happen."},{"startTime":3236.49,"endTime":3239.91,"body":"To cut corners, we won't"},{"startTime":3236.49,"endTime":3239.91,"body":"have the likes of Owen."},{"startTime":3239.91,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"And to cut corners, it won't be Owen"},{"startTime":3241.86,"endTime":3244.08,"body":"that's having to explain to his profession"},{"startTime":3244.08,"endTime":3245.43,"body":"why someone who is a colleague"},{"startTime":3245.43,"endTime":3246.967,"body":"is now coming up to him saying,"},{"startTime":3246.967,"endTime":3248.416,"body":"\"You told me this wouldn't happen."},{"startTime":3248.416,"endTime":3250.173,"body":"Why am I going to court?"},{"startTime":3251.07,"endTime":3252.87,"body":"They've told me they're going"},{"startTime":3251.07,"endTime":3252.87,"body":"to turn me into an expert."},{"startTime":3252.87,"endTime":3254.58,"body":"I didn't sign up for that.\""},{"startTime":3254.58,"endTime":3257.01,"body":"Saying no is very, very hard."},{"startTime":3257.01,"endTime":3260.07,"body":"And as I say, we will"},{"startTime":3257.01,"endTime":3260.07,"body":"witness summons if needs be."},{"startTime":3260.07,"endTime":3262.56,"body":"So where's the other hidden"},{"startTime":3260.07,"endTime":3262.56,"body":"voice in this equation?"},{"startTime":3262.56,"endTime":3263.85,"body":"You've heard mine,"},{"startTime":3263.85,"endTime":3265.59,"body":"but where's the hidden voice of the medics"},{"startTime":3265.59,"endTime":3268.8,"body":"who haven't volunteered to be transported"},{"startTime":3268.8,"endTime":3270.93,"body":"into the world of tension"},{"startTime":3268.8,"endTime":3270.93,"body":"and responsibility,"},{"startTime":3270.93,"endTime":3273.51,"body":"which the likes of Owen have absorbed?"},{"startTime":3273.51,"endTime":3274.62,"body":"So this has to be the place"},{"startTime":3274.62,"endTime":3276.51,"body":"for that voice to start being heard"},{"startTime":3276.51,"endTime":3278.79,"body":"because otherwise there's ineffective ways"},{"startTime":3278.79,"endTime":3280.44,"body":"for us to properly identify"},{"startTime":3280.44,"endTime":3282.48,"body":"what we need to do to make sure,"},{"startTime":3282.48,"endTime":3283.71,"body":"we don't want the Rolls Royce,"},{"startTime":3283.71,"endTime":3284.91,"body":"we can't have the Rolls Royce,"},{"startTime":3284.91,"endTime":3287.34,"body":"but I do want to have"},{"startTime":3284.91,"endTime":3287.34,"body":"a decent secondhand car"},{"startTime":3287.34,"endTime":3288.72,"body":"who's not about to lose a wheel"},{"startTime":3288.72,"endTime":3290.37,"body":"when it's gone around the corner."},{"startTime":3291.27,"endTime":3293.92,"body":"It's got to be fit for purpose"},{"startTime":3291.27,"endTime":3293.92,"body":"and it's got to be safe."},{"startTime":3294.87,"endTime":3295.89,"body":"So ladies and gentlemen,"},{"startTime":3295.89,"endTime":3297.75,"body":"I think we're probably covered"},{"startTime":3297.75,"endTime":3302.22,"body":"why I particularly value"},{"startTime":3297.75,"endTime":3302.22,"body":"having Owen's assistance here."},{"startTime":3302.22,"endTime":3304.65,"body":"And it's because without"},{"startTime":3302.22,"endTime":3304.65,"body":"Owen being able to tell us"},{"startTime":3304.65,"endTime":3305.91,"body":"what it's like at the coalface"},{"startTime":3305.91,"endTime":3307.37,"body":"and what the real worries are"},{"startTime":3307.37,"endTime":3309.12,"body":"of the medics he works with"},{"startTime":3309.12,"endTime":3312.09,"body":"and why he's prepared"},{"startTime":3309.12,"endTime":3312.09,"body":"to step beyond that role"},{"startTime":3312.09,"endTime":3313.89,"body":"to become an expert in his own right,"},{"startTime":3313.89,"endTime":3314.94,"body":"and then what's more,"},{"startTime":3314.94,"endTime":3316.95,"body":"to come here and share a platform with me."},{"startTime":3316.95,"endTime":3320.343,"body":"That's why we need people"},{"startTime":3316.95,"endTime":3320.343,"body":"like Professor Owen Arthurs."},{"startTime":3325.677,"endTime":3326.51,"body":"- [Leslie] Thank you."},{"startTime":3326.51,"endTime":3328.29,"body":"We've got time for a few questions."},{"startTime":3328.29,"endTime":3330.57,"body":"I've got a few online."},{"startTime":3330.57,"endTime":3335.347,"body":"I'm going to summarize one"},{"startTime":3330.57,"endTime":3335.347,"body":"for you, which is this,"},{"startTime":3335.347,"endTime":3338.21,"body":"\"If we are not able to get"},{"startTime":3338.21,"endTime":3341.56,"body":"the right caliber of experts to court"},{"startTime":3342.96,"endTime":3346.78,"body":"and the effect of that is"},{"startTime":3342.96,"endTime":3346.78,"body":"a lowering of standards"},{"startTime":3348.15,"endTime":3352.833,"body":"and you get the unregulated"},{"startTime":3348.15,"endTime":3352.833,"body":"experts or the underqualified,"},{"startTime":3354.36,"endTime":3357.66,"body":"do you think the system will then"},{"startTime":3357.66,"endTime":3362.66,"body":"be relying on opinions which"},{"startTime":3357.66,"endTime":3362.66,"body":"perhaps sound plausible,"},{"startTime":3363.69,"endTime":3368.22,"body":"but may then end up with"},{"startTime":3363.69,"endTime":3368.22,"body":"a suboptimal outcome"},{"startTime":3368.22,"endTime":3370.59,"body":"because a proper expert might have reached"},{"startTime":3370.59,"endTime":3372.18,"body":"a different conclusion?\""},{"startTime":3372.18,"endTime":3373.32,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":3373.32,"endTime":3374.614,"body":"- Right."},{"startTime":3374.614,"endTime":3376.052,"body":"(laughter)"},{"startTime":3376.052,"endTime":3377.25,"body":"Yeah, so the short answer is again, yes,"},{"startTime":3377.25,"endTime":3379.65,"body":"but that's not because I'm"},{"startTime":3377.25,"endTime":3379.65,"body":"speculating on it happening,"},{"startTime":3379.65,"endTime":3381.42,"body":"it's because it happens already."},{"startTime":3381.42,"endTime":3384.18,"body":"So we already get unqualified experts"},{"startTime":3384.18,"endTime":3386.703,"body":"from other jurisdictions"},{"startTime":3384.18,"endTime":3386.703,"body":"commenting on things"},{"startTime":3386.703,"endTime":3390.54,"body":"outside of the area of their expertise."},{"startTime":3390.54,"endTime":3392.49,"body":"So for example, I'm a radiologist,"},{"startTime":3392.49,"endTime":3395.25,"body":"but that doesn't mean,"},{"startTime":3392.49,"endTime":3395.25,"body":"and I work with children,"},{"startTime":3395.25,"endTime":3398.67,"body":"it doesn't mean that I"},{"startTime":3395.25,"endTime":3398.67,"body":"can report a mammogram"},{"startTime":3398.67,"endTime":3400.74,"body":"or somebody's prostate MRI"},{"startTime":3400.74,"endTime":3404.01,"body":"or somebody's kidney tumor as an adult."},{"startTime":3404.01,"endTime":3406.23,"body":"But quite a lot of people"},{"startTime":3404.01,"endTime":3406.23,"body":"working in those jurisdictions"},{"startTime":3406.23,"endTime":3408.36,"body":"will be quite happy to give an opinion"},{"startTime":3408.36,"endTime":3411.18,"body":"on a child's very subtle fracture,"},{"startTime":3411.18,"endTime":3412.68,"body":"that if they worked in that scenario"},{"startTime":3412.68,"endTime":3416.25,"body":"would recognize that"},{"startTime":3412.68,"endTime":3416.25,"body":"it demonstrates abuse."},{"startTime":3416.25,"endTime":3418.62,"body":"So it's not speculation from my part."},{"startTime":3418.62,"endTime":3420.93,"body":"I come across those criminal trials"},{"startTime":3420.93,"endTime":3422.13,"body":"where those experts are called"},{"startTime":3422.13,"endTime":3423.543,"body":"and they give that evidence."},{"startTime":3425.799,"endTime":3428.55,"body":"- One more from the online and then"},{"startTime":3428.55,"endTime":3431.22,"body":"I'll ask for questions from the audience."},{"startTime":3431.22,"endTime":3432.123,"body":"And that is,"},{"startTime":3433.087,"endTime":3438.087,"body":"\"Is there any way of"},{"startTime":3433.087,"endTime":3438.087,"body":"checking an expert's CV?\""},{"startTime":3440.129,"endTime":3442.26,"body":"In other words, how does anybody"},{"startTime":3442.26,"endTime":3445.02,"body":"who is involved in the"},{"startTime":3442.26,"endTime":3445.02,"body":"family justice system"},{"startTime":3445.02,"endTime":3447.51,"body":"know whether what's reported in the CV"},{"startTime":3447.51,"endTime":3448.893,"body":"is accurate or not?"},{"startTime":3450.81,"endTime":3452.31,"body":"- I don't think..."},{"startTime":3452.31,"endTime":3453.54,"body":"Is there way of checking the CV's?"},{"startTime":3453.54,"endTime":3456.72,"body":"No, I think CV's are"},{"startTime":3453.54,"endTime":3456.72,"body":"pretty much taken as read,"},{"startTime":3456.72,"endTime":3459.54,"body":"but you can certainly check"},{"startTime":3456.72,"endTime":3459.54,"body":"people's experience of things."},{"startTime":3459.54,"endTime":3462.69,"body":"So for example, if"},{"startTime":3459.54,"endTime":3462.69,"body":"you're looking at images,"},{"startTime":3462.69,"endTime":3463.59,"body":"how many of these images"},{"startTime":3463.59,"endTime":3465.81,"body":"do you see on a day-to-day practice?"},{"startTime":3465.81,"endTime":3467.55,"body":"How many times have you"},{"startTime":3465.81,"endTime":3467.55,"body":"been to court before?"},{"startTime":3467.55,"endTime":3471.183,"body":"How many times do you see"},{"startTime":3467.55,"endTime":3471.183,"body":"this kind of abnormality?"},{"startTime":3472.62,"endTime":3475.62,"body":"Is your opinion mainstream"},{"startTime":3472.62,"endTime":3475.62,"body":"in terms of everybody else?"},{"startTime":3475.62,"endTime":3477.24,"body":"Have you been to training courses on this?"},{"startTime":3477.24,"endTime":3479.43,"body":"Do you deliver training courses on"},{"startTime":3479.43,"endTime":3481.47,"body":"how to interpret these"},{"startTime":3479.43,"endTime":3481.47,"body":"sorts of abnormalities?"},{"startTime":3481.47,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"All those questions are perfectly valid"},{"startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3485.25,"body":"and those who are doing those"},{"startTime":3485.25,"endTime":3487.05,"body":"are quite happy to say,"},{"startTime":3485.25,"endTime":3487.05,"body":"\"Yes, I do those things."},{"startTime":3487.05,"endTime":3489.987,"body":"And that's what I do in"},{"startTime":3487.05,"endTime":3489.987,"body":"an everyday practice.\""},{"startTime":3490.86,"endTime":3492.84,"body":"I guess the same question would be true of"},{"startTime":3492.84,"endTime":3494.94,"body":"why do you need people, barristers,"},{"startTime":3494.94,"endTime":3497.31,"body":"who are experienced in the family court"},{"startTime":3497.31,"endTime":3500.37,"body":"to represent those people"},{"startTime":3497.31,"endTime":3500.37,"body":"in the family courts?"},{"startTime":3500.37,"endTime":3501.6,"body":"Why does it need to be a specialist?"},{"startTime":3501.6,"endTime":3503.64,"body":"Why couldn't it just be"},{"startTime":3501.6,"endTime":3503.64,"body":"anybody representing?"},{"startTime":3503.64,"endTime":3506.326,"body":"Or why don't people represent themselves?"},{"startTime":3506.326,"endTime":3507.159,"body":"- I think if you've got-"},{"startTime":3507.159,"endTime":3507.992,"body":"I think maybe they're saying"},{"startTime":3507.992,"endTime":3509.31,"body":"if you've got a fraudulent CV,"},{"startTime":3509.31,"endTime":3511.92,"body":"how far do we go to check"},{"startTime":3509.31,"endTime":3511.92,"body":"the context of the CV?"},{"startTime":3511.92,"endTime":3513.93,"body":"I mean what we do,"},{"startTime":3511.92,"endTime":3513.93,"body":"there's a very small pool,"},{"startTime":3513.93,"endTime":3515.37,"body":"we all know one another."},{"startTime":3515.37,"endTime":3516.93,"body":"In the main, we know one another,"},{"startTime":3516.93,"endTime":3518.867,"body":"both experts and lawyers alike."},{"startTime":3518.867,"endTime":3520.923,"body":"If it's fresh blood,"},{"startTime":3522.48,"endTime":3523.56,"body":"we'd ask questions about"},{"startTime":3523.56,"endTime":3524.97,"body":"how many cases they've appeared in,"},{"startTime":3524.97,"endTime":3527.28,"body":"whether it's crime or whether it's family?"},{"startTime":3527.28,"endTime":3529.05,"body":"We check their reference,"},{"startTime":3529.05,"endTime":3532.8,"body":"we check their resource"},{"startTime":3529.05,"endTime":3532.8,"body":"material they've identified."},{"startTime":3532.8,"endTime":3534.003,"body":"You ask around."},{"startTime":3535.02,"endTime":3538.53,"body":"So you don't take an unknown"},{"startTime":3535.02,"endTime":3538.53,"body":"expert on face value."},{"startTime":3538.53,"endTime":3540.27,"body":"Precisely because we want to test out"},{"startTime":3540.27,"endTime":3541.95,"body":"whether or not they"},{"startTime":3540.27,"endTime":3541.95,"body":"are going to be someone"},{"startTime":3541.95,"endTime":3544.44,"body":"who's going to be someone we can invest"},{"startTime":3544.44,"endTime":3545.7,"body":"our trust and confidence in."},{"startTime":3545.7,"endTime":3547.14,"body":"That's what it comes down to."},{"startTime":3547.14,"endTime":3548.34,"body":"- But you want somebody who's familiar"},{"startTime":3548.34,"endTime":3550.287,"body":"with the kinds of things"},{"startTime":3548.34,"endTime":3550.287,"body":"that you are looking for?"},{"startTime":3550.287,"endTime":3552.54,"body":"And this is where the retired expert"},{"startTime":3552.54,"endTime":3554.16,"body":"becomes a little bit of a gray area."},{"startTime":3554.16,"endTime":3555.24,"body":"So somebody who does have,"},{"startTime":3555.24,"endTime":3556.83,"body":"or did have 40 years of experience"},{"startTime":3556.83,"endTime":3558.66,"body":"looking after children in these scenarios"},{"startTime":3558.66,"endTime":3561.96,"body":"but no longer practices"},{"startTime":3558.66,"endTime":3561.96,"body":"in day-to-day practice."},{"startTime":3561.96,"endTime":3563.28,"body":"So if you retired last year,"},{"startTime":3563.28,"endTime":3565.917,"body":"I'm sure your experience is current"},{"startTime":3565.917,"endTime":3566.94,"body":"and is still up to date."},{"startTime":3566.94,"endTime":3569.19,"body":"If you're retired five or 10 years ago,"},{"startTime":3569.19,"endTime":3571.38,"body":"I think there are questions"},{"startTime":3569.19,"endTime":3571.38,"body":"that can then be asked"},{"startTime":3571.38,"endTime":3573.06,"body":"and put to you about whether"},{"startTime":3573.06,"endTime":3575.25,"body":"you are up to date with the latest things."},{"startTime":3575.25,"endTime":3576.51,"body":"- It's really, just pausing on there."},{"startTime":3576.51,"endTime":3579.3,"body":"But it's really important"},{"startTime":3576.51,"endTime":3579.3,"body":"for the expert we have"},{"startTime":3579.3,"endTime":3581.7,"body":"to be directly in touch"},{"startTime":3579.3,"endTime":3581.7,"body":"with what's going on"},{"startTime":3581.7,"endTime":3583.14,"body":"in the day-to-day cases."},{"startTime":3583.14,"endTime":3585.48,"body":"They need to have clinical experience"},{"startTime":3585.48,"endTime":3587.91,"body":"because the danger of being"},{"startTime":3585.48,"endTime":3587.91,"body":"an expert in anything,"},{"startTime":3587.91,"endTime":3590.16,"body":"whether you're a barrister"},{"startTime":3587.91,"endTime":3590.16,"body":"or a medical expert,"},{"startTime":3590.16,"endTime":3593.13,"body":"is the deeper into your profession you go,"},{"startTime":3593.13,"endTime":3594.717,"body":"the more removed you become"},{"startTime":3594.717,"endTime":3596.73,"body":"from some of the ordinary scenarios"},{"startTime":3596.73,"endTime":3598.8,"body":"that can otherwise result in injury."},{"startTime":3598.8,"endTime":3599.633,"body":"So for example,"},{"startTime":3599.633,"endTime":3600.81,"body":"it's really important if you know"},{"startTime":3600.81,"endTime":3603.063,"body":"what's going on in an A\u0026E site"},{"startTime":3603.063,"endTime":3605.43,"body":"because we often cross-examine experts"},{"startTime":3605.43,"endTime":3609.18,"body":"about it being a rare"},{"startTime":3605.43,"endTime":3609.18,"body":"issue that's not noticed."},{"startTime":3609.18,"endTime":3611.25,"body":"It's not something that"},{"startTime":3609.18,"endTime":3611.25,"body":"you ordinarily come across"},{"startTime":3611.25,"endTime":3612.75,"body":"'cause you're already looking through"},{"startTime":3612.75,"endTime":3615.72,"body":"a very particular lens of NAI."},{"startTime":3615.72,"endTime":3618.36,"body":"And so one of the other"},{"startTime":3615.72,"endTime":3618.36,"body":"gifts that an expert has"},{"startTime":3618.36,"endTime":3620.64,"body":"is they are prepared"},{"startTime":3618.36,"endTime":3620.64,"body":"to say, we don't know."},{"startTime":3620.64,"endTime":3623.49,"body":"The anomaly cases are the ones which tend"},{"startTime":3623.49,"endTime":3627.0,"body":"to push the boundaries"},{"startTime":3623.49,"endTime":3627.0,"body":"of science quite rightly"},{"startTime":3627.0,"endTime":3629.73,"body":"into areas that are already significant."},{"startTime":3629.73,"endTime":3631.14,"body":"Sorry Leslie, I know"},{"startTime":3629.73,"endTime":3631.14,"body":"we're running over time,"},{"startTime":3631.14,"endTime":3633.54,"body":"but can I tell you why that's important?"},{"startTime":3633.54,"endTime":3636.27,"body":"When I started off and I was doing cases"},{"startTime":3636.27,"endTime":3639.36,"body":"that involved allegations of"},{"startTime":3636.27,"endTime":3639.36,"body":"babies that have been shaken"},{"startTime":3639.36,"endTime":3642.63,"body":"and I would have blood in the"},{"startTime":3639.36,"endTime":3642.63,"body":"brain of more than two ages."},{"startTime":3642.63,"endTime":3643.8,"body":"So it looked different colors,"},{"startTime":3643.8,"endTime":3645.9,"body":"so both recent and old."},{"startTime":3645.9,"endTime":3648.42,"body":"And it was in different compartments."},{"startTime":3648.42,"endTime":3651.15,"body":"I would have decisions made by the judge"},{"startTime":3651.15,"endTime":3653.16,"body":"that indicated the baby has been shaken,"},{"startTime":3653.16,"endTime":3654.9,"body":"not just once, but twice."},{"startTime":3654.9,"endTime":3657.57,"body":"So that, for example, it meant that"},{"startTime":3657.57,"endTime":3659.499,"body":"there had been a failure to protect,"},{"startTime":3659.499,"endTime":3660.99,"body":"'cause you shook a baby once"},{"startTime":3660.99,"endTime":3663.81,"body":"or you've been present in the"},{"startTime":3660.99,"endTime":3663.81,"body":"home and that had happened,"},{"startTime":3663.81,"endTime":3665.25,"body":"but you haven't picked"},{"startTime":3663.81,"endTime":3665.25,"body":"it up and therefore,"},{"startTime":3665.25,"endTime":3667.56,"body":"the baby had gone on to"},{"startTime":3665.25,"endTime":3667.56,"body":"have a second injury."},{"startTime":3667.56,"endTime":3670.32,"body":"So children were removed from families"},{"startTime":3670.32,"endTime":3673.17,"body":"not just because they'd"},{"startTime":3670.32,"endTime":3673.17,"body":"identified a perpetrator,"},{"startTime":3673.17,"endTime":3676.05,"body":"but the person who the"},{"startTime":3673.17,"endTime":3676.05,"body":"court found hadn't done it"},{"startTime":3676.05,"endTime":3679.14,"body":"was nonetheless responsible"},{"startTime":3676.05,"endTime":3679.14,"body":"for a failure to protect."},{"startTime":3679.14,"endTime":3681.0,"body":"So they too were taken out the pool."},{"startTime":3681.0,"endTime":3684.84,"body":"We now know, and we've known since 2007,"},{"startTime":3684.84,"endTime":3687.3,"body":"that blood at birth can happen"},{"startTime":3687.3,"endTime":3689.67,"body":"and if you have blood at birth"},{"startTime":3687.3,"endTime":3689.67,"body":"it can cause re-bleeding."},{"startTime":3689.67,"endTime":3691.23,"body":"There's lots of science around"},{"startTime":3691.23,"endTime":3693.63,"body":"in what zones or what likelihood."},{"startTime":3693.63,"endTime":3696.18,"body":"But we know that once a"},{"startTime":3693.63,"endTime":3696.18,"body":"baby has blood at birth,"},{"startTime":3696.18,"endTime":3699.36,"body":"the likelihood of it"},{"startTime":3696.18,"endTime":3699.36,"body":"re-bleeding later is increased."},{"startTime":3699.36,"endTime":3701.907,"body":"So it explains why you might"},{"startTime":3699.36,"endTime":3701.907,"body":"have blood of two ages."},{"startTime":3701.907,"endTime":3703.92,"body":"And we also know that blood can move"},{"startTime":3703.92,"endTime":3706.11,"body":"between compartments of the brain"},{"startTime":3706.11,"endTime":3707.97,"body":"and with that old knowledge we have now,"},{"startTime":3707.97,"endTime":3709.816,"body":"we know we will have removed children"},{"startTime":3709.816,"endTime":3713.49,"body":"wrongly from families"},{"startTime":3709.816,"endTime":3713.49,"body":"where the parents protested"},{"startTime":3713.49,"endTime":3715.023,"body":"they had done nothing wrong."},{"startTime":3716.7,"endTime":3720.153,"body":"Now that's cruel."},{"startTime":3721.05,"endTime":3723.75,"body":"And that's why the best"},{"startTime":3721.05,"endTime":3723.75,"body":"experts are the ones"},{"startTime":3723.75,"endTime":3725.117,"body":"that are prepared to explore the evidence"},{"startTime":3725.117,"endTime":3728.79,"body":"and at the end of it to say, I don't know."},{"startTime":3728.79,"endTime":3732.54,"body":"And prepared to say that"},{"startTime":3728.79,"endTime":3732.54,"body":"these outliers of experience"},{"startTime":3732.54,"endTime":3735.0,"body":"are the ones which need"},{"startTime":3732.54,"endTime":3735.0,"body":"to have more research,"},{"startTime":3735.0,"endTime":3737.55,"body":"rather than dismissing them out of hand."},{"startTime":3737.55,"endTime":3738.69,"body":"And that again is an area"},{"startTime":3738.69,"endTime":3740.55,"body":"that only the expert can provide"},{"startTime":3740.55,"endTime":3742.26,"body":"because the consequences of their decision"},{"startTime":3742.26,"endTime":3745.86,"body":"and their opinion evidence is so profound."},{"startTime":3745.86,"endTime":3746.693,"body":"- So what you're saying is,"},{"startTime":3746.693,"endTime":3749.91,"body":"that given that this is a"},{"startTime":3746.693,"endTime":3749.91,"body":"critical area to get right"},{"startTime":3749.91,"endTime":3751.35,"body":"and there are many aspects of this"},{"startTime":3751.35,"endTime":3753.87,"body":"which might evolve slightly over time,"},{"startTime":3753.87,"endTime":3755.55,"body":"this isn't a time to basically"},{"startTime":3755.55,"endTime":3757.2,"body":"stop paying attention to those areas."},{"startTime":3757.2,"endTime":3758.987,"body":"- That's exactly right."},{"startTime":3758.987,"endTime":3761.4,"body":"- And to stop getting people to say,"},{"startTime":3761.4,"endTime":3762.48,"body":"this is mainstream view,"},{"startTime":3762.48,"endTime":3764.453,"body":"this is what we think might be happening."},{"startTime":3765.72,"endTime":3767.55,"body":"- Well every time we do one of these cases"},{"startTime":3767.55,"endTime":3769.47,"body":"we learn something new"},{"startTime":3769.47,"endTime":3772.86,"body":"and medical researchers moved on"},{"startTime":3772.86,"endTime":3776.13,"body":"from the last time we"},{"startTime":3772.86,"endTime":3776.13,"body":"did one of these cases."},{"startTime":3776.13,"endTime":3779.793,"body":"And so to stop that process"},{"startTime":3776.13,"endTime":3779.793,"body":"would be concerning."},{"startTime":3780.742,"endTime":3784.323,"body":"Questions from the audience?"},{"startTime":3785.22,"endTime":3786.75,"body":"- [Crowd Member] The"},{"startTime":3785.22,"endTime":3786.75,"body":"safeguarding practices"},{"startTime":3786.75,"endTime":3790.263,"body":"in NHS and the quality."},{"startTime":3791.97,"endTime":3794.04,"body":"Your opinion on what could be changed?"},{"startTime":3794.04,"endTime":3795.6,"body":"'Cause I presume that you guys"},{"startTime":3795.6,"endTime":3798.21,"body":"go to the safeguarding and"},{"startTime":3795.6,"endTime":3798.21,"body":"you use that as evidence."},{"startTime":3798.21,"endTime":3800.97,"body":"So do you think we collect enough"},{"startTime":3800.97,"endTime":3805.32,"body":"as soon as a patient's"},{"startTime":3800.97,"endTime":3805.32,"body":"presented with certain issues?"},{"startTime":3805.32,"endTime":3807.66,"body":"Or do you think there could be more done?"},{"startTime":3807.66,"endTime":3809.263,"body":"You know, especially since we have"},{"startTime":3809.263,"endTime":3813.0,"body":"a limited amount of"},{"startTime":3809.263,"endTime":3813.0,"body":"expert witnesses. So yeah."},{"startTime":3813.0,"endTime":3814.38,"body":"- So I think it's about really"},{"startTime":3814.38,"endTime":3819.06,"body":"the information collecting"},{"startTime":3814.38,"endTime":3819.06,"body":"that happens at the hospital"},{"startTime":3819.06,"endTime":3821.94,"body":"and whether the process could be improved"},{"startTime":3821.94,"endTime":3825.273,"body":"or whether it's, in fact, how good it is."},{"startTime":3826.29,"endTime":3829.17,"body":"- I think that's a very"},{"startTime":3826.29,"endTime":3829.17,"body":"difficult question to answer."},{"startTime":3829.17,"endTime":3832.08,"body":"I think different A\u0026E"},{"startTime":3829.17,"endTime":3832.08,"body":"departments, different NHS's"},{"startTime":3832.08,"endTime":3834.327,"body":"are under different amounts"},{"startTime":3832.08,"endTime":3834.327,"body":"of stresses and strains"},{"startTime":3834.327,"endTime":3836.49,"body":"and I think this is a"},{"startTime":3834.327,"endTime":3836.49,"body":"particularly challenging"},{"startTime":3836.49,"endTime":3837.51,"body":"time for the NHS."},{"startTime":3837.51,"endTime":3839.91,"body":"You're hearing about striking workers,"},{"startTime":3839.91,"endTime":3841.08,"body":"hearing about waiting lists,"},{"startTime":3841.08,"endTime":3843.3,"body":"you're hearing about everything"},{"startTime":3841.08,"endTime":3843.3,"body":"being put under pressure."},{"startTime":3843.3,"endTime":3845.7,"body":"So it wouldn't be a"},{"startTime":3843.3,"endTime":3845.7,"body":"surprise for you to find"},{"startTime":3845.7,"endTime":3847.65,"body":"in six to 12 months time"},{"startTime":3847.65,"endTime":3850.14,"body":"that there had been missed opportunities"},{"startTime":3850.14,"endTime":3852.138,"body":"to safeguard some children."},{"startTime":3852.138,"endTime":3853.885,"body":"Don't think that would surprise anybody."},{"startTime":3853.885,"endTime":3856.108,"body":"We know already there"},{"startTime":3853.885,"endTime":3856.108,"body":"are high profile cases"},{"startTime":3856.108,"endTime":3859.8,"body":"that are in the mainstream media"},{"startTime":3859.8,"endTime":3862.17,"body":"about missed opportunities."},{"startTime":3862.17,"endTime":3863.43,"body":"And I don't imagine that the"},{"startTime":3863.43,"endTime":3864.597,"body":"current stresses and strains of NHS"},{"startTime":3864.597,"endTime":3867.06,"body":"are going to make that any better."},{"startTime":3867.06,"endTime":3870.15,"body":"I'm sure there are always"},{"startTime":3867.06,"endTime":3870.15,"body":"opportunities to improve things."},{"startTime":3870.15,"endTime":3872.64,"body":"We now have particular"},{"startTime":3870.15,"endTime":3872.64,"body":"safeguarding pediatricians"},{"startTime":3872.64,"endTime":3873.84,"body":"in most hospitals."},{"startTime":3873.84,"endTime":3876.54,"body":"So we are making some people responsible"},{"startTime":3876.54,"endTime":3879.15,"body":"for making sure that"},{"startTime":3876.54,"endTime":3879.15,"body":"children who come through"},{"startTime":3879.15,"endTime":3881.13,"body":"are assessed properly and rigorously"},{"startTime":3881.13,"endTime":3883.74,"body":"and taken into that system."},{"startTime":3883.74,"endTime":3886.29,"body":"We are almost always will be accused"},{"startTime":3886.29,"endTime":3888.933,"body":"of taking children into"},{"startTime":3886.29,"endTime":3888.933,"body":"that system unnecessarily."},{"startTime":3889.841,"endTime":3892.83,"body":"And the balance between doing"},{"startTime":3892.83,"endTime":3895.65,"body":"that necessarily and proportionately,"},{"startTime":3895.65,"endTime":3897.45,"body":"the children coming through versus"},{"startTime":3897.45,"endTime":3900.93,"body":"the pressures on getting"},{"startTime":3897.45,"endTime":3900.93,"body":"the rest of the NHS working"},{"startTime":3900.93,"endTime":3902.853,"body":"will always be slightly in conflict."},{"startTime":3903.72,"endTime":3904.95,"body":"- [Crowd Member] Deviating slightly,"},{"startTime":3904.95,"endTime":3907.5,"body":"but do you see any similar difficulties"},{"startTime":3907.5,"endTime":3909.42,"body":"in private children proceedings?"},{"startTime":3909.42,"endTime":3910.77,"body":"I appreciate you don't really get"},{"startTime":3910.77,"endTime":3912.47,"body":"too many medical experts in those,"},{"startTime":3913.35,"endTime":3916.29,"body":"but obviously you might in certifications."},{"startTime":3916.29,"endTime":3918.2,"body":"- Well you might do if for example-"},{"startTime":3918.2,"endTime":3920.65,"body":"- So the questions about"},{"startTime":3918.2,"endTime":3920.65,"body":"private care procedures?"},{"startTime":3921.96,"endTime":3924.18,"body":"- So basically it is slightly..."},{"startTime":3924.18,"endTime":3926.01,"body":"So in public law, just to explain,"},{"startTime":3926.01,"endTime":3927.6,"body":"it's called public law because"},{"startTime":3927.6,"endTime":3929.28,"body":"it involves a public authority,"},{"startTime":3929.28,"endTime":3932.52,"body":"the local authority"},{"startTime":3929.28,"endTime":3932.52,"body":"intervening in a family's life"},{"startTime":3932.52,"endTime":3935.07,"body":"to consider whether the"},{"startTime":3932.52,"endTime":3935.07,"body":"child needs to be removed."},{"startTime":3935.07,"endTime":3937.2,"body":"So in public law you've"},{"startTime":3935.07,"endTime":3937.2,"body":"got the local authority,"},{"startTime":3937.2,"endTime":3939.12,"body":"you've got the mother invariably,"},{"startTime":3939.12,"endTime":3940.23,"body":"the father or boyfriend,"},{"startTime":3940.23,"endTime":3941.67,"body":"and you've got the child."},{"startTime":3941.67,"endTime":3942.63,"body":"In private law,"},{"startTime":3942.63,"endTime":3944.82,"body":"it's effectively a"},{"startTime":3942.63,"endTime":3944.82,"body":"carer against the other."},{"startTime":3944.82,"endTime":3946.77,"body":"So it doesn't involve the state."},{"startTime":3946.77,"endTime":3948.57,"body":"But nonetheless there is sometimes"},{"startTime":3948.57,"endTime":3950.43,"body":"an overlap in private law cases"},{"startTime":3950.43,"endTime":3952.47,"body":"where the local authority isn't involved,"},{"startTime":3952.47,"endTime":3955.503,"body":"a parent might say that a child has been,"},{"startTime":3956.43,"endTime":3958.89,"body":"I dunno, hit, bruising."},{"startTime":3958.89,"endTime":3961.2,"body":"Now that's going to be a"},{"startTime":3958.89,"endTime":3961.2,"body":"different level of threshold"},{"startTime":3961.2,"endTime":3963.21,"body":"because you'll have to decide,"},{"startTime":3963.21,"endTime":3964.95,"body":"it's relatively unlikely,"},{"startTime":3964.95,"endTime":3966.24,"body":"although not to say it's happened,"},{"startTime":3966.24,"endTime":3969.48,"body":"that you would get an expert"},{"startTime":3966.24,"endTime":3969.48,"body":"in private law proceedings."},{"startTime":3969.48,"endTime":3971.7,"body":"But if the child wasn't"},{"startTime":3969.48,"endTime":3971.7,"body":"separately represented,"},{"startTime":3971.7,"endTime":3974.04,"body":"then that'd have to be"},{"startTime":3971.7,"endTime":3974.04,"body":"funded by the parent"},{"startTime":3974.04,"endTime":3976.2,"body":"and therefore they'd be paying privately."},{"startTime":3976.2,"endTime":3978.6,"body":"So I think it is a very good question,"},{"startTime":3978.6,"endTime":3980.55,"body":"but it's a much smaller subpool"},{"startTime":3980.55,"endTime":3983.28,"body":"and then you are not necessarily dealing"},{"startTime":3983.28,"endTime":3986.61,"body":"with the same imperatives of"},{"startTime":3983.28,"endTime":3986.61,"body":"getting more than one expert."},{"startTime":3986.61,"endTime":3989.19,"body":"But you need to be, if you"},{"startTime":3986.61,"endTime":3989.19,"body":"do get an expertise in,"},{"startTime":3989.19,"endTime":3990.94,"body":"you're still going to need permission."},{"startTime":3991.8,"endTime":3993.18,"body":"If the child needs to be seen,"},{"startTime":3993.18,"endTime":3994.89,"body":"you definitely need permission."},{"startTime":3994.89,"endTime":3997.23,"body":"And you got to make sure"},{"startTime":3994.89,"endTime":3997.23,"body":"that the right expert is in"},{"startTime":3997.23,"endTime":4000.201,"body":"because you don't want there"},{"startTime":3997.23,"endTime":4000.201,"body":"to be a battle of experts,"},{"startTime":4000.201,"endTime":4002.63,"body":"'cause that may not be"},{"startTime":4000.201,"endTime":4002.63,"body":"a joint instruction."},{"startTime":4002.63,"endTime":4005.24,"body":"- So wait, so who pays"},{"startTime":4002.63,"endTime":4005.24,"body":"for the whole system?"},{"startTime":4005.24,"endTime":4006.62,"body":"Who pays for...?"},{"startTime":4006.62,"endTime":4008.96,"body":"- In public law, ultimately"},{"startTime":4006.62,"endTime":4008.96,"body":"the taxpayer pays"},{"startTime":4008.96,"endTime":4009.98,"body":"because the local authority"},{"startTime":4009.98,"endTime":4012.116,"body":"is paying for the local authority."},{"startTime":4012.116,"endTime":4017.116,"body":"We, Leslie and I, for the"},{"startTime":4012.116,"endTime":4017.116,"body":"parents or for the child,"},{"startTime":4017.96,"endTime":4019.73,"body":"in which case we're paid for by legal aid,"},{"startTime":4019.73,"endTime":4021.43,"body":"which comes out of the tax system."},{"startTime":4022.58,"endTime":4023.9,"body":"If you're an intervener,"},{"startTime":4023.9,"endTime":4026.48,"body":"then there may be a private contribution"},{"startTime":4026.48,"endTime":4027.86,"body":"because it's a different scenario."},{"startTime":4027.86,"endTime":4030.35,"body":"But ultimately it's where"},{"startTime":4027.86,"endTime":4030.35,"body":"you want your money to go."},{"startTime":4030.35,"endTime":4031.97,"body":"So it comes right back to what Leslie"},{"startTime":4031.97,"endTime":4033.08,"body":"was saying at the beginning."},{"startTime":4033.08,"endTime":4035.35,"body":"- So you the audience"},{"startTime":4033.08,"endTime":4035.35,"body":"are funding this system."},{"startTime":4035.35,"endTime":4036.183,"body":"So the question is,"},{"startTime":4036.183,"endTime":4037.76,"body":"is it doing not what we want it to do,"},{"startTime":4037.76,"endTime":4039.69,"body":"but is it doing what you want it to do?"},{"startTime":4039.69,"endTime":4041.78,"body":"Is it protecting children,"},{"startTime":4041.78,"endTime":4043.61,"body":"but doing that proportionally against"},{"startTime":4043.61,"endTime":4045.8,"body":"the cost or the time left involved"},{"startTime":4045.8,"endTime":4049.64,"body":"in investigating whether or"},{"startTime":4045.8,"endTime":4049.64,"body":"not to protect those children?"},{"startTime":4049.64,"endTime":4052.973,"body":"And is this the overriding imperative?"},{"startTime":4054.2,"endTime":4055.613,"body":"- Good point to end on."},{"startTime":4056.882,"endTime":4060.783,"body":"Can I thank Jo and Owen"},{"startTime":4056.882,"endTime":4060.783,"body":"for a fascinating talk."},{"startTime":4060.783,"endTime":4064.7,"body":"(crowd applauding)"},{"startTime":4060.783,"endTime":4064.7,"body":"- Thank you."}]}