{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.241,"endTime":2.991,"body":"(logo whooshing)"},{"startTime":6.48,"endTime":9.483,"body":"- Do we need barristers?"},{"startTime":11.25,"endTime":13.93,"body":"England and Wales, we"},{"startTime":11.25,"endTime":13.93,"body":"have a split profession"},{"startTime":15.06,"endTime":17.34,"body":"with a traditional distinction"},{"startTime":17.34,"endTime":19.89,"body":"between solicitors and barristers."},{"startTime":19.89,"endTime":23.88,"body":"This contrast with many other"},{"startTime":19.89,"endTime":23.88,"body":"countries, including many"},{"startTime":23.88,"endTime":28.593,"body":"in the common law world, which"},{"startTime":23.88,"endTime":28.593,"body":"only have one type of lawyer."},{"startTime":30.63,"endTime":34.08,"body":"England and Wales is of"},{"startTime":30.63,"endTime":34.08,"body":"course not the only place"},{"startTime":34.08,"endTime":36.33,"body":"to have a split profession."},{"startTime":36.33,"endTime":40.2,"body":"Some jurisdictions have"},{"startTime":36.33,"endTime":40.2,"body":"a split profession based"},{"startTime":40.2,"endTime":41.373,"body":"on the English model."},{"startTime":42.54,"endTime":45.873,"body":"Such as Northern Ireland"},{"startTime":42.54,"endTime":45.873,"body":"and the Republic of Ireland."},{"startTime":47.1,"endTime":50.913,"body":"And other countries split the profession,"},{"startTime":53.25,"endTime":55.86,"body":"it has evolved differently, separately."},{"startTime":55.86,"endTime":60.81,"body":"For example, in South Africa"},{"startTime":55.86,"endTime":60.81,"body":"whose law is a mix of English"},{"startTime":60.81,"endTime":65.22,"body":"and Roman Dutch influences"},{"startTime":60.81,"endTime":65.22,"body":"this split profession,"},{"startTime":65.22,"endTime":70.22,"body":"but the branches are called"},{"startTime":65.22,"endTime":70.22,"body":"attorneys and advocates."},{"startTime":70.53,"endTime":74.43,"body":"And some civil law systems"},{"startTime":70.53,"endTime":74.43,"body":"have a split between advocates"},{"startTime":74.43,"endTime":75.603,"body":"and notaries."},{"startTime":76.5,"endTime":81.5,"body":"However, many jurisdictions"},{"startTime":76.5,"endTime":81.5,"body":"whose law is derived"},{"startTime":81.81,"endTime":86.81,"body":"from English law have"},{"startTime":81.81,"endTime":86.81,"body":"abandoned the split profession."},{"startTime":86.94,"endTime":89.67,"body":"For example, in the islands"},{"startTime":89.67,"endTime":93.21,"body":"of the Eastern Caribbean where I practice."},{"startTime":93.21,"endTime":94.11,"body":"And many countries"},{"startTime":94.11,"endTime":97.95,"body":"in the commonwealth,"},{"startTime":94.11,"endTime":97.95,"body":"there's no longer a division"},{"startTime":97.95,"endTime":101.25,"body":"between solicitors and barristers."},{"startTime":101.25,"endTime":104.52,"body":"All lawyers are admitted as attorneys"},{"startTime":104.52,"endTime":108.903,"body":"and perform the function of"},{"startTime":104.52,"endTime":108.903,"body":"both solicitors and barristers."},{"startTime":110.7,"endTime":115.7,"body":"So the question's got to be"},{"startTime":110.7,"endTime":115.7,"body":"asked, what are the differences"},{"startTime":115.83,"endTime":118.833,"body":"between a solicitor and a barrister?"},{"startTime":120.09,"endTime":123.84,"body":"Let me see if I can help."},{"startTime":123.84,"endTime":127.633,"body":"Traditionally in England,"},{"startTime":123.84,"endTime":127.633,"body":"solicitors had a monopoly"},{"startTime":127.633,"endTime":131.16,"body":"on the conduct of litigation."},{"startTime":131.16,"endTime":136.16,"body":"That meant taking steps like"},{"startTime":131.16,"endTime":136.16,"body":"issuing proceedings in court"},{"startTime":136.53,"endTime":141.53,"body":"on behalf of the client, filing"},{"startTime":136.53,"endTime":141.53,"body":"documents, paying court fees"},{"startTime":141.57,"endTime":145.35,"body":"and barristers were not"},{"startTime":141.57,"endTime":145.35,"body":"allowed to conduct litigation"},{"startTime":145.35,"endTime":149.37,"body":"nor were they allowed"},{"startTime":145.35,"endTime":149.37,"body":"to handle client money."},{"startTime":149.37,"endTime":154.3,"body":"Conversely, barristers had"},{"startTime":149.37,"endTime":154.3,"body":"a monopoly on the audience"},{"startTime":155.28,"endTime":156.27,"body":"in the higher courts."},{"startTime":156.27,"endTime":159.513,"body":"That is the right to argue cases in court."},{"startTime":160.8,"endTime":164.16,"body":"And although solicitors"},{"startTime":160.8,"endTime":164.16,"body":"were allowed to argue"},{"startTime":164.16,"endTime":165.3,"body":"before the magistrates"},{"startTime":165.3,"endTime":169.2,"body":"in the county court, only"},{"startTime":165.3,"endTime":169.2,"body":"barristers were allowed to argue"},{"startTime":169.2,"endTime":173.31,"body":"in the crown court, the Court"},{"startTime":169.2,"endTime":173.31,"body":"of Appeal, the high court,"},{"startTime":173.31,"endTime":177.243,"body":"and the as it was then the House of Lords."},{"startTime":178.71,"endTime":180.87,"body":"Another tradition was"},{"startTime":180.87,"endTime":184.923,"body":"that clients did not"},{"startTime":180.87,"endTime":184.923,"body":"instruct barristers directly."},{"startTime":186.03,"endTime":188.7,"body":"They instructed the solicitor who"},{"startTime":188.7,"endTime":193.14,"body":"in turn instructed the barrister"},{"startTime":188.7,"endTime":193.14,"body":"to argue on their behalf."},{"startTime":193.14,"endTime":196.98,"body":"The relationship of client"},{"startTime":193.14,"endTime":196.98,"body":"with the barrister was"},{"startTime":196.98,"endTime":201.407,"body":"also different in terms"},{"startTime":196.98,"endTime":201.407,"body":"of the relationship"},{"startTime":202.86,"endTime":203.693,"body":"between a solicitor."},{"startTime":203.693,"endTime":208.64,"body":"For example, originally a"},{"startTime":203.693,"endTime":208.64,"body":"barrister couldn't be sued"},{"startTime":209.52,"endTime":213.45,"body":"for professional negligence"},{"startTime":209.52,"endTime":213.45,"body":"in representing the client,"},{"startTime":213.45,"endTime":214.863,"body":"whereas a solicitor could."},{"startTime":216.54,"endTime":219.81,"body":"And a barrister could not sue the client"},{"startTime":219.81,"endTime":223.413,"body":"for unpaid fees, whereas"},{"startTime":219.81,"endTime":223.413,"body":"a solicitor could."},{"startTime":225.03,"endTime":229.113,"body":"In the last few decades, many"},{"startTime":225.03,"endTime":229.113,"body":"of these things have changed."},{"startTime":230.13,"endTime":231.69,"body":"Solicitors can now qualify"},{"startTime":231.69,"endTime":234.54,"body":"as solicitor advocates,"},{"startTime":231.69,"endTime":234.54,"body":"which give them rights"},{"startTime":234.54,"endTime":236.37,"body":"of audience in high courts."},{"startTime":236.37,"endTime":239.85,"body":"And many barristers are now qualified"},{"startTime":239.85,"endTime":243.87,"body":"to accept instructions"},{"startTime":239.85,"endTime":243.87,"body":"directly from clients"},{"startTime":243.87,"endTime":247.113,"body":"through the bar public access scheme."},{"startTime":248.19,"endTime":250.83,"body":"And a smaller number are now qualified"},{"startTime":250.83,"endTime":252.573,"body":"to conduct litigation."},{"startTime":255.06,"endTime":258.58,"body":"And barristers can now"},{"startTime":255.06,"endTime":258.58,"body":"be sued in negligence"},{"startTime":259.59,"endTime":263.793,"body":"and can sue solicitors for their fees."},{"startTime":264.72,"endTime":269.43,"body":"However, it remains the"},{"startTime":264.72,"endTime":269.43,"body":"case that the working life"},{"startTime":269.43,"endTime":271.83,"body":"of a typical barrister and that"},{"startTime":271.83,"endTime":274.353,"body":"of a typical solicitor"},{"startTime":271.83,"endTime":274.353,"body":"are quite different."},{"startTime":275.4,"endTime":280.11,"body":"Most barristers are"},{"startTime":275.4,"endTime":280.11,"body":"self-employed, work in chambers."},{"startTime":280.11,"endTime":283.323,"body":"That's just a posh word"},{"startTime":280.11,"endTime":283.323,"body":"for a set of offices,"},{"startTime":285.9,"endTime":289.918,"body":"Which are not firms but are an association"},{"startTime":289.918,"endTime":293.97,"body":"of individual self-employed barristers."},{"startTime":293.97,"endTime":297.87,"body":"By contrast, most solicitors"},{"startTime":293.97,"endTime":297.87,"body":"work in firms either"},{"startTime":297.87,"endTime":301.27,"body":"as employees or partners"},{"startTime":297.87,"endTime":301.27,"body":"with other solicitors"},{"startTime":302.4,"endTime":305.76,"body":"and most barristers still"},{"startTime":302.4,"endTime":305.76,"body":"get the bulk of their work"},{"startTime":305.76,"endTime":310.76,"body":"through instructions from"},{"startTime":305.76,"endTime":310.76,"body":"solicitors, not clients directly."},{"startTime":312.42,"endTime":316.02,"body":"And most barristers still carry out a lot"},{"startTime":316.02,"endTime":320.793,"body":"of courtroom advocacy"},{"startTime":316.02,"endTime":320.793,"body":"then most solicitors do."},{"startTime":321.75,"endTime":326.4,"body":"But this is a generalization"},{"startTime":321.75,"endTime":326.4,"body":"and there are exceptions."},{"startTime":326.4,"endTime":330.33,"body":"Even solicitors who are not"},{"startTime":326.4,"endTime":330.33,"body":"solicitor advocates carry"},{"startTime":330.33,"endTime":334.5,"body":"out advocacy in the lower"},{"startTime":330.33,"endTime":334.5,"body":"courts and tribunals."},{"startTime":334.5,"endTime":336.99,"body":"And some solicitors spend a lot"},{"startTime":336.99,"endTime":340.63,"body":"of their working lives"},{"startTime":336.99,"endTime":340.63,"body":"carrying out advocacy"},{"startTime":341.76,"endTime":344.61,"body":"and some barristers spend nearly all"},{"startTime":344.61,"endTime":348.09,"body":"of their working lives,"},{"startTime":344.61,"endTime":348.09,"body":"not going near a court"},{"startTime":348.09,"endTime":350.103,"body":"and performing advocacy."},{"startTime":352.29,"endTime":356.887,"body":"In addition to conducting"},{"startTime":352.29,"endTime":356.887,"body":"litigation, many solicitors spend"},{"startTime":358.62,"endTime":363.62,"body":"a lot of time on what's"},{"startTime":358.62,"endTime":363.62,"body":"described as non litigious work."},{"startTime":363.9,"endTime":367.02,"body":"This includes tasks such"},{"startTime":363.9,"endTime":367.02,"body":"as drawing up and advising"},{"startTime":367.02,"endTime":371.04,"body":"on contracts, carrying out conveyance in."},{"startTime":371.04,"endTime":373.953,"body":"But again, this is a generalization."},{"startTime":374.94,"endTime":377.16,"body":"And as I've indicated, there are a lot"},{"startTime":377.16,"endTime":379.92,"body":"of barristers who spend"},{"startTime":377.16,"endTime":379.92,"body":"a great deal of time"},{"startTime":379.92,"endTime":381.933,"body":"on non litigious work."},{"startTime":382.95,"endTime":386.88,"body":"And to make it even more"},{"startTime":382.95,"endTime":386.88,"body":"complicated, there are"},{"startTime":386.88,"endTime":391.88,"body":"also employed barristers,"},{"startTime":386.88,"endTime":391.88,"body":"some of whom work in-house"},{"startTime":394.77,"endTime":399.18,"body":"alongside solicitors for companies"},{"startTime":399.18,"endTime":403.83,"body":"and government departments"},{"startTime":399.18,"endTime":403.83,"body":"and some actually work"},{"startTime":403.83,"endTime":408.36,"body":"in law firms, solicitors law firms."},{"startTime":408.36,"endTime":412.02,"body":"You see, or you can see"},{"startTime":412.02,"endTime":415.74,"body":"from everything I've just"},{"startTime":412.02,"endTime":415.74,"body":"said, it isn't really easy"},{"startTime":415.74,"endTime":418.227,"body":"to summarize the differences"},{"startTime":415.74,"endTime":418.227,"body":"between solicitors"},{"startTime":418.227,"endTime":420.12,"body":"and barristers."},{"startTime":420.12,"endTime":424.68,"body":"For a lay audience, sometimes"},{"startTime":420.12,"endTime":424.68,"body":"people just use the shorthand"},{"startTime":424.68,"endTime":427.8,"body":"of saying that solicitors are generalists"},{"startTime":427.8,"endTime":430.11,"body":"and barristers are specialists,"},{"startTime":430.11,"endTime":433.323,"body":"but this isn't really accurate."},{"startTime":434.7,"endTime":439.233,"body":"Some solicitors have highly"},{"startTime":434.7,"endTime":439.233,"body":"specialized practices"},{"startTime":440.266,"endTime":444.333,"body":"and some barristers are"},{"startTime":440.266,"endTime":444.333,"body":"very much generalists."},{"startTime":445.59,"endTime":448.86,"body":"And any statement we might"},{"startTime":445.59,"endTime":448.86,"body":"make about the differences"},{"startTime":448.86,"endTime":453.86,"body":"between the two professions"},{"startTime":448.86,"endTime":453.86,"body":"is inevitably subject"},{"startTime":454.44,"endTime":457.02,"body":"to exceptions."},{"startTime":457.02,"endTime":462.02,"body":"Ensure the difference or the differences"},{"startTime":462.12,"endTime":466.26,"body":"between barristers and solicitors is quite"},{"startTime":466.26,"endTime":470.043,"body":"often a confusing one"},{"startTime":466.26,"endTime":470.043,"body":"for the general public."},{"startTime":472.11,"endTime":477.11,"body":"In this lecture, we're going"},{"startTime":472.11,"endTime":477.11,"body":"to have a look at the history"},{"startTime":477.78,"endTime":482.78,"body":"of the split profession, why"},{"startTime":477.78,"endTime":482.78,"body":"it exists, its advantages,"},{"startTime":484.68,"endTime":489.68,"body":"its disadvantages, and"},{"startTime":484.68,"endTime":489.68,"body":"whether we still need it"},{"startTime":489.81,"endTime":491.133,"body":"in a modern world."},{"startTime":492.93,"endTime":497.82,"body":"The lecture will focus on"},{"startTime":492.93,"endTime":497.82,"body":"the professions of barrister"},{"startTime":497.82,"endTime":499.59,"body":"and solicitor."},{"startTime":499.59,"endTime":502.26,"body":"But it's important to acknowledge"},{"startTime":502.26,"endTime":505.86,"body":"that these are not the"},{"startTime":502.26,"endTime":505.86,"body":"only legal professions."},{"startTime":505.86,"endTime":509.82,"body":"We have chartered legal"},{"startTime":505.86,"endTime":509.82,"body":"executives who are also part"},{"startTime":509.82,"endTime":512.01,"body":"of the profession."},{"startTime":512.01,"endTime":514.26,"body":"And there are other regulated professions"},{"startTime":514.26,"endTime":519.26,"body":"that perform legal work,"},{"startTime":514.26,"endTime":519.26,"body":"license conveyancers,"},{"startTime":519.45,"endTime":524.45,"body":"cost draftsman, regulated"},{"startTime":519.45,"endTime":524.45,"body":"immigration advisors."},{"startTime":525.216,"endTime":530.216,"body":"But as I say, the focus"},{"startTime":525.216,"endTime":530.216,"body":"of this lecture will be"},{"startTime":530.67,"endTime":534.783,"body":"on the barrister solicitor split."},{"startTime":536.1,"endTime":540.18,"body":"Do we need a split profession"},{"startTime":540.18,"endTime":542.703,"body":"or should the professions be fused?"},{"startTime":547.89,"endTime":551.463,"body":"Let's turn to the history"},{"startTime":547.89,"endTime":551.463,"body":"of the split profession."},{"startTime":553.02,"endTime":553.95,"body":"You see, in order"},{"startTime":553.95,"endTime":558.64,"body":"to understand why we have"},{"startTime":553.95,"endTime":558.64,"body":"a split profession, we need"},{"startTime":559.56,"endTime":563.943,"body":"to dive into the history of"},{"startTime":559.56,"endTime":563.943,"body":"the English legal system."},{"startTime":564.96,"endTime":567.87,"body":"And this will necessarily"},{"startTime":564.96,"endTime":567.87,"body":"only be a brief overview"},{"startTime":567.87,"endTime":571.71,"body":"as it's a subject where people"},{"startTime":567.87,"endTime":571.71,"body":"have written entire books"},{"startTime":571.71,"endTime":572.883,"body":"on the subject."},{"startTime":573.96,"endTime":577.14,"body":"Today, we're familiar"},{"startTime":573.96,"endTime":577.14,"body":"with the two branches"},{"startTime":577.14,"endTime":580.14,"body":"of the profession,"},{"startTime":577.14,"endTime":580.14,"body":"solicitors and barristers."},{"startTime":580.14,"endTime":585.14,"body":"But at one time did you know"},{"startTime":580.14,"endTime":585.14,"body":"there were five attorneys,"},{"startTime":587.657,"endTime":592.657,"body":"solicitors, barristers,"},{"startTime":587.657,"endTime":592.657,"body":"proctors, and advocates?"},{"startTime":596.31,"endTime":601.31,"body":"From its inception in the 13th"},{"startTime":596.31,"endTime":601.31,"body":"century, the legal profession"},{"startTime":601.5,"endTime":605.22,"body":"in the common law courts"},{"startTime":601.5,"endTime":605.22,"body":"of England was divided"},{"startTime":605.22,"endTime":607.47,"body":"into two branches."},{"startTime":607.47,"endTime":612.47,"body":"The first branch was the"},{"startTime":607.47,"endTime":612.47,"body":"pleaders, the forerunners"},{"startTime":612.81,"endTime":614.763,"body":"to the modern barrister."},{"startTime":616.23,"endTime":620.13,"body":"The leaders of this profession"},{"startTime":616.23,"endTime":620.13,"body":"were called sergeants."},{"startTime":620.13,"endTime":625.13,"body":"Which came from the Latin,"},{"startTime":620.13,"endTime":625.13,"body":"servi regis ad legem"},{"startTime":626.16,"endTime":629.583,"body":"or forgive my (laughs)"},{"startTime":626.16,"endTime":629.583,"body":"Latin pronunciation."},{"startTime":631.02,"endTime":635.253,"body":"Which translates servants"},{"startTime":631.02,"endTime":635.253,"body":"of the king at law."},{"startTime":636.45,"endTime":637.68,"body":"Junior members"},{"startTime":637.68,"endTime":641.313,"body":"of the profession were originally"},{"startTime":637.68,"endTime":641.313,"body":"called apprentices at law."},{"startTime":642.18,"endTime":646.68,"body":"They began to congregate"},{"startTime":642.18,"endTime":646.68,"body":"in Inns which developed"},{"startTime":646.68,"endTime":650.58,"body":"into the Inns of Court"},{"startTime":646.68,"endTime":650.58,"body":"the professional societies"},{"startTime":650.58,"endTime":653.043,"body":"for barristers which still exist today."},{"startTime":653.91,"endTime":658.53,"body":"Their role was to speak"},{"startTime":653.91,"endTime":658.53,"body":"for their client in court"},{"startTime":658.53,"endTime":661.44,"body":"and argue their client's case."},{"startTime":661.44,"endTime":664.23,"body":"By the 17th century,"},{"startTime":661.44,"endTime":664.23,"body":"the term barrister came"},{"startTime":664.23,"endTime":668.31,"body":"into general use and was used in place"},{"startTime":668.31,"endTime":671.103,"body":"of the older apprentice at law."},{"startTime":672.66,"endTime":676.89,"body":"The second branch was the attorneys."},{"startTime":676.89,"endTime":680.13,"body":"Attorney originally means"},{"startTime":676.89,"endTime":680.13,"body":"agent, which is why we still use"},{"startTime":680.13,"endTime":683.88,"body":"that term today in a different"},{"startTime":680.13,"endTime":683.88,"body":"context when we refer"},{"startTime":683.88,"endTime":685.95,"body":"to non-lawyers."},{"startTime":685.95,"endTime":690.06,"body":"When a person is given a power of attorney"},{"startTime":690.06,"endTime":692.253,"body":"to handle another person's affairs."},{"startTime":693.63,"endTime":696.21,"body":"Attorneys acted as"},{"startTime":693.63,"endTime":696.21,"body":"agents for their clients"},{"startTime":696.21,"endTime":698.34,"body":"in the conduct of litigation."},{"startTime":698.34,"endTime":701.4,"body":"In contrast, barristers who only spoke"},{"startTime":701.4,"endTime":703.173,"body":"for the client in court."},{"startTime":704.7,"endTime":708.36,"body":"Up until the middle of the 16th century,"},{"startTime":708.36,"endTime":711.693,"body":"practicing attorneys were"},{"startTime":708.36,"endTime":711.693,"body":"allowed to join Inns of Courts."},{"startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.92,"body":"And the the division between"},{"startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.92,"body":"the apprentices or at law"},{"startTime":715.92,"endTime":718.44,"body":"and the attorneys was not rigid."},{"startTime":718.44,"endTime":722.67,"body":"However, the division"},{"startTime":718.44,"endTime":722.67,"body":"became increasingly rigid"},{"startTime":722.67,"endTime":725.91,"body":"in the 16th century when"},{"startTime":722.67,"endTime":725.91,"body":"the Inns of Court began"},{"startTime":725.91,"endTime":730.2,"body":"to exclude practicing"},{"startTime":725.91,"endTime":730.2,"body":"attorneys and regulate them"},{"startTime":730.2,"endTime":735.063,"body":"to different sets of Inns,"},{"startTime":730.2,"endTime":735.063,"body":"the Inns of Chancery."},{"startTime":735.93,"endTime":739.38,"body":"And the Inns of Chancery have"},{"startTime":735.93,"endTime":739.38,"body":"since faded into history,"},{"startTime":739.38,"endTime":742.95,"body":"but you can still see"},{"startTime":739.38,"endTime":742.95,"body":"their legacy in some names"},{"startTime":742.95,"endTime":747.95,"body":"in the city of London such as"},{"startTime":742.95,"endTime":747.95,"body":"Barnard's Inn or Furnival Inn."},{"startTime":749.16,"endTime":752.58,"body":"By the end of the 18th century, the policy"},{"startTime":752.58,"endTime":755.55,"body":"of excluding practicing"},{"startTime":752.58,"endTime":755.55,"body":"attorneys from call"},{"startTime":755.55,"endTime":758.37,"body":"to the bar was well established."},{"startTime":758.37,"endTime":761.76,"body":"So by this stage there"},{"startTime":758.37,"endTime":761.76,"body":"was a clear division"},{"startTime":761.76,"endTime":764.283,"body":"between the two professions."},{"startTime":765.15,"endTime":767.88,"body":"They were also regulated differently."},{"startTime":767.88,"endTime":770.28,"body":"Attorneys were officers of the court"},{"startTime":770.28,"endTime":773.16,"body":"and were strictly regulated by the court"},{"startTime":773.16,"endTime":775.59,"body":"often being harshly punished"},{"startTime":775.59,"endTime":777.72,"body":"for minor breaches of the rules."},{"startTime":777.72,"endTime":781.65,"body":"By contrast, barristers"},{"startTime":777.72,"endTime":781.65,"body":"were principally regulated"},{"startTime":781.65,"endTime":785.88,"body":"by their own professional"},{"startTime":781.65,"endTime":785.88,"body":"bodies, the Inns of Court."},{"startTime":785.88,"endTime":790.623,"body":"As well as by restrictive rules"},{"startTime":785.88,"endTime":790.623,"body":"of professional etiquette."},{"startTime":792.36,"endTime":796.02,"body":"Another legal profession which"},{"startTime":792.36,"endTime":796.02,"body":"grew up alongside attorneys"},{"startTime":796.02,"endTime":801.02,"body":"and barristers were the solicitors."},{"startTime":801.33,"endTime":806.01,"body":"By way of background"},{"startTime":801.33,"endTime":806.01,"body":"from the late middle ages"},{"startTime":806.01,"endTime":810.15,"body":"until the 19th century,"},{"startTime":806.01,"endTime":810.15,"body":"there was a separation"},{"startTime":810.15,"endTime":814.173,"body":"between the courts of common"},{"startTime":810.15,"endTime":814.173,"body":"law and the courts of equity."},{"startTime":815.19,"endTime":817.56,"body":"The Courts of the King's Bench"},{"startTime":817.56,"endTime":820.17,"body":"and the Courts of the Common Pleas"},{"startTime":820.17,"endTime":823.5,"body":"administered the common law."},{"startTime":823.5,"endTime":827.19,"body":"Which tended to be rigid and rule-bound."},{"startTime":827.19,"endTime":830.22,"body":"The Court of Chancery presided over"},{"startTime":830.22,"endTime":835.05,"body":"by the Lord Chancellor"},{"startTime":830.22,"endTime":835.05,"body":"administered equity which tended"},{"startTime":835.05,"endTime":837.723,"body":"to be more flexible and less rigid."},{"startTime":838.68,"endTime":841.23,"body":"Solicitors did the same kind of work"},{"startTime":841.23,"endTime":845.25,"body":"in the Courts of Chancery, that's bar...."},{"startTime":845.25,"endTime":846.75,"body":"That's forgive me, attorneys did"},{"startTime":846.75,"endTime":849.06,"body":"in the courts of common law."},{"startTime":849.06,"endTime":851.7,"body":"And we can see the legacy of this divide"},{"startTime":851.7,"endTime":854.88,"body":"in the structure of the high court today,"},{"startTime":854.88,"endTime":857.64,"body":"which still has king's bench division"},{"startTime":857.64,"endTime":858.933,"body":"and a chancery division."},{"startTime":860.473,"endTime":864.03,"body":"To make things even more confusing,"},{"startTime":864.03,"endTime":866.37,"body":"there were two more branches"},{"startTime":866.37,"endTime":871.23,"body":"of the legal profession,"},{"startTime":866.37,"endTime":871.23,"body":"proctors and advocates."},{"startTime":871.23,"endTime":876.23,"body":"Now these lawyers practiced"},{"startTime":871.23,"endTime":876.23,"body":"in the Ecclesiastical courts"},{"startTime":876.78,"endTime":880.56,"body":"and had jurisdiction"},{"startTime":876.78,"endTime":880.56,"body":"over probate and divorce"},{"startTime":880.56,"endTime":882.96,"body":"as well as church matters."},{"startTime":882.96,"endTime":887.46,"body":"While the admiralty"},{"startTime":882.96,"endTime":887.46,"body":"courts had jurisdiction"},{"startTime":887.46,"endTime":889.083,"body":"over shipping matters."},{"startTime":890.61,"endTime":893.76,"body":"Those courts administered"},{"startTime":890.61,"endTime":893.76,"body":"civil law, which was derived"},{"startTime":893.76,"endTime":898.29,"body":"from Roman law rather"},{"startTime":893.76,"endTime":898.29,"body":"than English common law."},{"startTime":898.29,"endTime":902.79,"body":"Whereas common law was"},{"startTime":898.29,"endTime":902.79,"body":"taught in the Inns of Court."},{"startTime":902.79,"endTime":905.82,"body":"Roman law was taught at the universities"},{"startTime":905.82,"endTime":907.263,"body":"of Oxford and Cambridge."},{"startTime":909.21,"endTime":913.167,"body":"The advocates had their own"},{"startTime":909.21,"endTime":913.167,"body":"professional body called the"},{"startTime":914.76,"endTime":918.42,"body":"Doctors' Commons, which was immortalized"},{"startTime":918.42,"endTime":922.707,"body":"in Dickens novel, \"David Copperfield\"."},{"startTime":926.97,"endTime":930.46,"body":"During the 19th century there"},{"startTime":926.97,"endTime":930.46,"body":"was a process of consolidation"},{"startTime":931.38,"endTime":933.96,"body":"of the courts in the legal profession."},{"startTime":933.96,"endTime":938.96,"body":"In 1857, parliament created"},{"startTime":933.96,"endTime":938.96,"body":"the Court of Probate"},{"startTime":939.03,"endTime":943.17,"body":"and the Court for Divorce"},{"startTime":939.03,"endTime":943.17,"body":"and Matrimonial Causes."},{"startTime":943.17,"endTime":945.66,"body":"In which barristers could"},{"startTime":943.17,"endTime":945.66,"body":"practice, which meant"},{"startTime":945.66,"endTime":950.66,"body":"that advocates of doctors"},{"startTime":945.66,"endTime":950.66,"body":"common lost their monopoly"},{"startTime":951.24,"endTime":954.57,"body":"over probate and divorce."},{"startTime":954.57,"endTime":958.65,"body":"Most proctors thereafter"},{"startTime":954.57,"endTime":958.65,"body":"joined the ranks of solicitors"},{"startTime":958.65,"endTime":963.65,"body":"and Doctors' Commons died"},{"startTime":958.65,"endTime":963.65,"body":"out by the late 19th century."},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":970.04,"body":"Another big change came with"},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":970.04,"body":"the Judicature Act of 1873,"},{"startTime":973.08,"endTime":976.95,"body":"which merged the superior"},{"startTime":973.08,"endTime":976.95,"body":"courts of the common law"},{"startTime":976.95,"endTime":981.9,"body":"and equity into a single high"},{"startTime":976.95,"endTime":981.9,"body":"court as we know it today."},{"startTime":981.9,"endTime":985.53,"body":"Which administers both"},{"startTime":981.9,"endTime":985.53,"body":"common law and equity."},{"startTime":985.53,"endTime":989.95,"body":"And that act merged the"},{"startTime":985.53,"endTime":989.95,"body":"professions of attorney"},{"startTime":990.81,"endTime":994.44,"body":"and solicitors into one and also provided"},{"startTime":994.44,"endTime":998.94,"body":"that they should thereafter"},{"startTime":994.44,"endTime":998.94,"body":"be known as solicitors"},{"startTime":998.94,"endTime":1000.54,"body":"and that remains the case today."},{"startTime":1002.87,"endTime":1005.033,"body":"So let's turn to barristers."},{"startTime":1007.64,"endTime":1010.22,"body":"We've already touched on"},{"startTime":1007.64,"endTime":1010.22,"body":"the history of barristers"},{"startTime":1010.22,"endTime":1012.53,"body":"as a profession, but"},{"startTime":1010.22,"endTime":1012.53,"body":"let's just look at this"},{"startTime":1012.53,"endTime":1014.99,"body":"in a little bit more detail."},{"startTime":1014.99,"endTime":1018.92,"body":"As I said earlier, originally the leaders"},{"startTime":1018.92,"endTime":1022.043,"body":"of the profession were sergeants."},{"startTime":1023.27,"endTime":1027.62,"body":"The sergeants had their"},{"startTime":1023.27,"endTime":1027.62,"body":"own inn, Sergeants Inn"},{"startTime":1027.62,"endTime":1032.62,"body":"and ranked higher than"},{"startTime":1027.62,"endTime":1032.62,"body":"ordinary barristers."},{"startTime":1032.87,"endTime":1037.403,"body":"Judges were drawn from"},{"startTime":1032.87,"endTime":1037.403,"body":"the ranks of sergeants."},{"startTime":1038.39,"endTime":1042.65,"body":"However, over time the"},{"startTime":1038.39,"endTime":1042.65,"body":"sergeants declined and"},{"startTime":1042.65,"endTime":1047.633,"body":"after the 1873 Act, no"},{"startTime":1042.65,"endTime":1047.633,"body":"more were appointed."},{"startTime":1048.65,"endTime":1051.83,"body":"The title survives only in the title"},{"startTime":1051.83,"endTime":1056.83,"body":"of the Common Sergeant of"},{"startTime":1051.83,"endTime":1056.83,"body":"London, which is a senior judge"},{"startTime":1056.84,"endTime":1058.133,"body":"at the Old Bailey."},{"startTime":1059.36,"endTime":1063.68,"body":"Meanwhile, the offices"},{"startTime":1059.36,"endTime":1063.68,"body":"of the Attorney General"},{"startTime":1063.68,"endTime":1065.96,"body":"and Solicitor General developed"},{"startTime":1065.96,"endTime":1070.4,"body":"as the king's representatives"},{"startTime":1065.96,"endTime":1070.4,"body":"in the courts."},{"startTime":1070.4,"endTime":1074.66,"body":"Confusingly in modern"},{"startTime":1070.4,"endTime":1074.66,"body":"times, these offices have"},{"startTime":1074.66,"endTime":1078.983,"body":"almost always been held by"},{"startTime":1074.66,"endTime":1078.983,"body":"barristers, not solicitors."},{"startTime":1079.82,"endTime":1082.22,"body":"And with the development"},{"startTime":1079.82,"endTime":1082.22,"body":"of the modern system"},{"startTime":1082.22,"endTime":1085.31,"body":"of cabinet government,"},{"startTime":1082.22,"endTime":1085.31,"body":"the attorney general"},{"startTime":1085.31,"endTime":1089.21,"body":"and the solicitor general"},{"startTime":1085.31,"endTime":1089.21,"body":"became government ministers"},{"startTime":1089.21,"endTime":1091.283,"body":"and they still are today."},{"startTime":1093.53,"endTime":1097.163,"body":"From the reign of Elizabeth"},{"startTime":1093.53,"endTime":1097.163,"body":"the first onwards,"},{"startTime":1098.09,"endTime":1102.86,"body":"there was a body of barristers retained"},{"startTime":1102.86,"endTime":1106.553,"body":"by the crown called King's Council."},{"startTime":1108.14,"endTime":1113.14,"body":"In 1603, James the first"},{"startTime":1108.14,"endTime":1113.14,"body":"appointed Francis Bacon as one"},{"startTime":1114.86,"endTime":1118.25,"body":"of her council's learned in the law."},{"startTime":1118.25,"endTime":1121.79,"body":"And this was the origin of the modern rank"},{"startTime":1121.79,"endTime":1124.013,"body":"of King's Council KC."},{"startTime":1125.24,"endTime":1129.41,"body":"Originally King's Council were"},{"startTime":1125.24,"endTime":1129.41,"body":"appointed to advise the king"},{"startTime":1129.41,"endTime":1131.12,"body":"and his law officers."},{"startTime":1131.12,"endTime":1135.09,"body":"However, over time it"},{"startTime":1131.12,"endTime":1135.09,"body":"became a title of honor"},{"startTime":1136.28,"endTime":1139.91,"body":"that was conferred on"},{"startTime":1136.28,"endTime":1139.91,"body":"professionally, eminent,"},{"startTime":1139.91,"endTime":1143.27,"body":"or politically influential barristers."},{"startTime":1143.27,"endTime":1146.6,"body":"Historically, King's"},{"startTime":1143.27,"endTime":1146.6,"body":"Council could not appear"},{"startTime":1146.6,"endTime":1150.41,"body":"against the crown except"},{"startTime":1146.6,"endTime":1150.41,"body":"by special license,"},{"startTime":1150.41,"endTime":1152.963,"body":"but this rule was abolished in 1920."},{"startTime":1154.22,"endTime":1156.08,"body":"As most people know,"},{"startTime":1154.22,"endTime":1156.08,"body":"we still have the title"},{"startTime":1156.08,"endTime":1160.343,"body":"of King's Council today, I am a KC."},{"startTime":1161.36,"endTime":1166.19,"body":"Until relatively recently"},{"startTime":1161.36,"endTime":1166.19,"body":"it was the Lord Chancellor,"},{"startTime":1166.19,"endTime":1169.64,"body":"a cabinet minister who"},{"startTime":1166.19,"endTime":1169.64,"body":"appointed King's Council"},{"startTime":1169.64,"endTime":1174.2,"body":"after confidential"},{"startTime":1169.64,"endTime":1174.2,"body":"consultation with senior judges"},{"startTime":1174.2,"endTime":1176.093,"body":"and senior barristers."},{"startTime":1177.11,"endTime":1182.093,"body":"The process was completely"},{"startTime":1177.11,"endTime":1182.093,"body":"lacking in transparency."},{"startTime":1183.38,"endTime":1186.95,"body":"Like the former judicial"},{"startTime":1183.38,"endTime":1186.95,"body":"appointments, a process"},{"startTime":1186.95,"endTime":1189.773,"body":"that I discussed in my last lecture."},{"startTime":1191.33,"endTime":1196.33,"body":"However, in 2005, an"},{"startTime":1191.33,"endTime":1196.33,"body":"independence appointment panel"},{"startTime":1196.91,"endTime":1199.97,"body":"was introduced and the process today"},{"startTime":1199.97,"endTime":1203.753,"body":"is much more transparent"},{"startTime":1199.97,"endTime":1203.753,"body":"and less political."},{"startTime":1210.59,"endTime":1213.383,"body":"Let's turn to the training of barristers."},{"startTime":1214.58,"endTime":1217.19,"body":"The training of barristers"},{"startTime":1214.58,"endTime":1217.19,"body":"has changed significantly"},{"startTime":1217.19,"endTime":1218.6,"body":"over centuries."},{"startTime":1218.6,"endTime":1221.63,"body":"Historically, the Inns"},{"startTime":1218.6,"endTime":1221.63,"body":"of Court were responsible"},{"startTime":1221.63,"endTime":1222.503,"body":"for the training."},{"startTime":1223.58,"endTime":1226.61,"body":"Until the 18th century,"},{"startTime":1223.58,"endTime":1226.61,"body":"the universities of Oxford"},{"startTime":1226.61,"endTime":1230.96,"body":"and Cambridge did not"},{"startTime":1226.61,"endTime":1230.96,"body":"teach English common law."},{"startTime":1230.96,"endTime":1235.4,"body":"They only taught civil"},{"startTime":1230.96,"endTime":1235.4,"body":"law. That is Roman law."},{"startTime":1235.4,"endTime":1237.56,"body":"Barristers received their legal training"},{"startTime":1237.56,"endTime":1241.7,"body":"from the Inns where they"},{"startTime":1237.56,"endTime":1241.7,"body":"observed proceedings"},{"startTime":1241.7,"endTime":1244.58,"body":"in court, took notes, practiced in moots,"},{"startTime":1244.58,"endTime":1248.69,"body":"that's a mock hearing or"},{"startTime":1244.58,"endTime":1248.69,"body":"trial on a legal issue."},{"startTime":1248.69,"endTime":1253.49,"body":"And by the 15th and 16th"},{"startTime":1248.69,"endTime":1253.49,"body":"centuries attended readings"},{"startTime":1253.49,"endTime":1255.29,"body":"and lectures."},{"startTime":1255.29,"endTime":1259.19,"body":"However, by the 17th century, this system"},{"startTime":1259.19,"endTime":1262.8,"body":"of legal education had"},{"startTime":1259.19,"endTime":1262.8,"body":"decayed and all students had"},{"startTime":1265.899,"endTime":1267.687,"body":"to be called to the bar."},{"startTime":1268.79,"endTime":1272.06,"body":"All they had to do was to"},{"startTime":1268.79,"endTime":1272.06,"body":"be required to eat a number"},{"startTime":1272.06,"endTime":1277.06,"body":"of dinners at their Inns of Court."},{"startTime":1277.67,"endTime":1278.633,"body":"I kid you not."},{"startTime":1281.09,"endTime":1285.83,"body":"The process of eating dinners,"},{"startTime":1281.09,"endTime":1285.83,"body":"certainly continued up"},{"startTime":1285.83,"endTime":1289.01,"body":"until the time I was called in"},{"startTime":1289.01,"endTime":1291.83,"body":"1988 to eat 24 dinners."},{"startTime":1291.83,"endTime":1296.13,"body":"But I had to do a bit more"},{"startTime":1291.83,"endTime":1296.13,"body":"than just eat 24 dinners."},{"startTime":1296.13,"endTime":1298.58,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1298.58,"endTime":1302.54,"body":"The 19th century saw"},{"startTime":1298.58,"endTime":1302.54,"body":"significant improvements."},{"startTime":1302.54,"endTime":1305.33,"body":"A parliamentary select committee"},{"startTime":1305.33,"endTime":1310.33,"body":"in 1846 harshly criticized"},{"startTime":1305.33,"endTime":1310.33,"body":"the system of legal education."},{"startTime":1311.9,"endTime":1313.253,"body":"Hardly surprising."},{"startTime":1314.21,"endTime":1319.21,"body":"The four Inns created the Council"},{"startTime":1314.21,"endTime":1319.21,"body":"of Legal Education in 1850"},{"startTime":1322.01,"endTime":1327.01,"body":"and in 1872 it became"},{"startTime":1322.01,"endTime":1327.01,"body":"compulsory for an examination"},{"startTime":1327.2,"endTime":1330.713,"body":"to be passed before call to the bar."},{"startTime":1332.63,"endTime":1335.33,"body":"English law degrees were established"},{"startTime":1335.33,"endTime":1339.14,"body":"at the universities of Oxford"},{"startTime":1335.33,"endTime":1339.14,"body":"and Cambridge and Durham."},{"startTime":1339.14,"endTime":1343.04,"body":"And in the 1850s and later"},{"startTime":1343.04,"endTime":1347.0,"body":"in the 19th century, the"},{"startTime":1343.04,"endTime":1347.0,"body":"new civic universities began"},{"startTime":1347.0,"endTime":1349.223,"body":"to offer law degrees."},{"startTime":1351.32,"endTime":1355.43,"body":"In 1959 it became compulsory"},{"startTime":1355.43,"endTime":1360.43,"body":"to do a complete a period"},{"startTime":1355.43,"endTime":1360.43,"body":"of 12 months pupillage."},{"startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1367.69,"body":"That's essentially a term"},{"startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1367.69,"body":"for a shadowing a barrister"},{"startTime":1369.68,"endTime":1373.13,"body":"around and seeing and working with"},{"startTime":1373.13,"endTime":1377.903,"body":"that barrister who supervised the pupil."},{"startTime":1380.39,"endTime":1385.39,"body":"So 12 months pupillage in"},{"startTime":1380.39,"endTime":1385.39,"body":"chambers, posh word for offices,"},{"startTime":1387.65,"endTime":1389.69,"body":"after call to the bar."},{"startTime":1389.69,"endTime":1394.69,"body":"And from 1965, pupils were"},{"startTime":1389.69,"endTime":1394.69,"body":"prohibited from taking cases"},{"startTime":1396.11,"endTime":1398.21,"body":"during their first six months of practice."},{"startTime":1398.21,"endTime":1400.28,"body":"Just stop and think about that."},{"startTime":1400.28,"endTime":1405.09,"body":"Before then, you just ate dinners"},{"startTime":1406.73,"endTime":1409.696,"body":"and then you were let loose on the public."},{"startTime":1409.696,"endTime":1410.9,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1410.9,"endTime":1414.2,"body":"Then you still had to eat dinners,"},{"startTime":1414.2,"endTime":1417.263,"body":"but you had to do some training."},{"startTime":1418.13,"endTime":1423.13,"body":"But on your first day of"},{"startTime":1418.13,"endTime":1423.13,"body":"training, you could be let loose"},{"startTime":1423.5,"endTime":1424.973,"body":"on the public."},{"startTime":1425.84,"endTime":1428.33,"body":"And it wasn't until, as I say 1965,"},{"startTime":1431.57,"endTime":1436.55,"body":"that pupils were prohibited"},{"startTime":1431.57,"endTime":1436.55,"body":"from being let loose"},{"startTime":1436.55,"endTime":1441.55,"body":"on the public without a"},{"startTime":1436.55,"endTime":1441.55,"body":"period of supervision."},{"startTime":1444.26,"endTime":1448.433,"body":"There were further changes"},{"startTime":1444.26,"endTime":1448.433,"body":"in the late 20th century."},{"startTime":1449.75,"endTime":1453.86,"body":"The bar first required barristers"},{"startTime":1453.86,"endTime":1458.213,"body":"to have a university degree in 1975."},{"startTime":1459.89,"endTime":1461.6,"body":"Again, just to stop and think about that."},{"startTime":1461.6,"endTime":1466.6,"body":"So before 1975, you didn't"},{"startTime":1461.6,"endTime":1466.6,"body":"even need a university degree"},{"startTime":1466.684,"endTime":1469.133,"body":"to be let loose on the public."},{"startTime":1473.39,"endTime":1476.6,"body":"In 1967, the Inns of Court established"},{"startTime":1476.6,"endTime":1479.21,"body":"the Inns of Court School of Law"},{"startTime":1479.21,"endTime":1482.99,"body":"with a permanent teaching staff."},{"startTime":1482.99,"endTime":1487.99,"body":"And in 1989, the bar finals,"},{"startTime":1482.99,"endTime":1487.99,"body":"that's the examination"},{"startTime":1490.31,"endTime":1494.397,"body":"that barristers have to"},{"startTime":1490.31,"endTime":1494.397,"body":"complete, required examinations"},{"startTime":1496.46,"endTime":1499.01,"body":"for court to the bar that was replaced"},{"startTime":1499.01,"endTime":1502.167,"body":"by the bar vocational course BVC."},{"startTime":1504.35,"endTime":1508.4,"body":"The Inns of Court School of"},{"startTime":1504.35,"endTime":1508.4,"body":"Law had a monopoly on the BVC"},{"startTime":1508.4,"endTime":1513.4,"body":"until 1997 when it was"},{"startTime":1508.4,"endTime":1513.4,"body":"opened up to universities."},{"startTime":1513.77,"endTime":1516.773,"body":"And the BVC has been renamed."},{"startTime":1518.18,"endTime":1521.21,"body":"It's now I think the bar"},{"startTime":1518.18,"endTime":1521.21,"body":"professional training course."},{"startTime":1521.21,"endTime":1523.34,"body":"It keeps on changing,"},{"startTime":1521.21,"endTime":1523.34,"body":"it's very hard to keep up"},{"startTime":1523.34,"endTime":1525.17,"body":"with what it's called"},{"startTime":1525.17,"endTime":1528.113,"body":"but it's the Bar"},{"startTime":1525.17,"endTime":1528.113,"body":"Professional Training course."},{"startTime":1531.29,"endTime":1533.393,"body":"That's a nice photograph of the Inns."},{"startTime":1533.393,"endTime":1535.293,"body":"I do you believe that's Lincoln's Inn."},{"startTime":1537.89,"endTime":1541.61,"body":"Now one thing that's"},{"startTime":1537.89,"endTime":1541.61,"body":"important to understand is"},{"startTime":1541.61,"endTime":1546.61,"body":"that historically there has"},{"startTime":1541.61,"endTime":1546.61,"body":"been a strong class divide"},{"startTime":1546.8,"endTime":1550.49,"body":"between barristers on the"},{"startTime":1546.8,"endTime":1550.49,"body":"one hand and attorneys"},{"startTime":1550.49,"endTime":1551.903,"body":"and solicitors on the other."},{"startTime":1554.69,"endTime":1559.69,"body":"You may be wondering why or"},{"startTime":1554.69,"endTime":1559.69,"body":"due to the expense of education"},{"startTime":1561.89,"endTime":1566.89,"body":"at the Inns of Court,"},{"startTime":1561.89,"endTime":1566.89,"body":"barristers were generally drawn"},{"startTime":1567.11,"endTime":1572.0,"body":"from wealthier families"},{"startTime":1567.11,"endTime":1572.0,"body":"of higher social status."},{"startTime":1572.0,"endTime":1576.997,"body":"While attorneys and solicitors"},{"startTime":1572.0,"endTime":1576.997,"body":"were of lower social status."},{"startTime":1578.0,"endTime":1581.96,"body":"Barrister themselves"},{"startTime":1578.0,"endTime":1581.96,"body":"looked down on attorneys"},{"startTime":1581.96,"endTime":1583.88,"body":"and solicitors."},{"startTime":1583.88,"endTime":1587.39,"body":"In 1614, the benchers"},{"startTime":1587.39,"endTime":1590.48,"body":"of the Inns of Court described"},{"startTime":1587.39,"endTime":1590.48,"body":"attorneys and solicitors"},{"startTime":1590.48,"endTime":1594.533,"body":"as ministerial persons"},{"startTime":1590.48,"endTime":1594.533,"body":"of an inferior nature."},{"startTime":1596.66,"endTime":1601.66,"body":"In 1666, they were"},{"startTime":1596.66,"endTime":1601.66,"body":"described even more harshly"},{"startTime":1601.76,"endTime":1606.76,"body":"as immaterial persons"},{"startTime":1601.76,"endTime":1606.76,"body":"of an inferior nature."},{"startTime":1606.962,"endTime":1608.72,"body":"(audience laughing)"},{"startTime":1608.72,"endTime":1613.283,"body":"This snobbery remained the"},{"startTime":1608.72,"endTime":1613.283,"body":"case for two centuries later."},{"startTime":1614.15,"endTime":1617.09,"body":"In the debate in parliament"},{"startTime":1614.15,"endTime":1617.09,"body":"on the County Courts Act"},{"startTime":1617.09,"endTime":1621.26,"body":"in 1846, which allowed"},{"startTime":1617.09,"endTime":1621.26,"body":"attorneys a right of audience"},{"startTime":1621.26,"endTime":1624.624,"body":"in the county courts, the Attorney General"},{"startTime":1624.624,"endTime":1627.293,"body":"said the following, in opposing the bill,"},{"startTime":1629.217,"endTime":1631.25,"body":"\"The business of the advocate in all"},{"startTime":1631.25,"endTime":1634.43,"body":"of our courts, superior and"},{"startTime":1631.25,"endTime":1634.43,"body":"inferior, should be conducted"},{"startTime":1634.43,"endTime":1639.35,"body":"by men of trained education as advocates"},{"startTime":1639.35,"endTime":1643.793,"body":"of established position as"},{"startTime":1639.35,"endTime":1643.793,"body":"gentlemen as men of honor."},{"startTime":1644.93,"endTime":1646.82,"body":"He did not believe that any one"},{"startTime":1646.82,"endTime":1651.62,"body":"of these was visionary enough"},{"startTime":1646.82,"endTime":1651.62,"body":"to imagine that it could be"},{"startTime":1651.62,"endTime":1654.56,"body":"or would be an advantage to"},{"startTime":1651.62,"endTime":1654.56,"body":"dispense with the advocacy"},{"startTime":1654.56,"endTime":1658.88,"body":"of a class of men who had"},{"startTime":1654.56,"endTime":1658.88,"body":"enjoyed the highest education"},{"startTime":1658.88,"endTime":1663.443,"body":"and who were known to be"},{"startTime":1658.88,"endTime":1663.443,"body":"influenced by the highest feelings."},{"startTime":1664.34,"endTime":1667.37,"body":"If any monopoly at all"},{"startTime":1664.34,"endTime":1667.37,"body":"were allowed to exist,"},{"startTime":1667.37,"endTime":1669.59,"body":"it would surely be better to place it"},{"startTime":1669.59,"endTime":1674.3,"body":"in the hands of highly"},{"startTime":1669.59,"endTime":1674.3,"body":"educated class of men rather"},{"startTime":1674.3,"endTime":1677.057,"body":"than those of an inferior class.\""},{"startTime":1679.67,"endTime":1684.32,"body":"That tells you a great deal"},{"startTime":1679.67,"endTime":1684.32,"body":"about the prevailing attitudes"},{"startTime":1684.32,"endTime":1687.68,"body":"of barristers towards"},{"startTime":1684.32,"endTime":1687.68,"body":"attorneys and solicitors"},{"startTime":1687.68,"endTime":1690.02,"body":"in the 19th century."},{"startTime":1690.02,"endTime":1692.72,"body":"Of course, this is not to deny"},{"startTime":1692.72,"endTime":1695.12,"body":"that some attorneys achieved wealth, fame,"},{"startTime":1695.12,"endTime":1699.683,"body":"and distinction or that some"},{"startTime":1695.12,"endTime":1699.683,"body":"barristers made little money."},{"startTime":1700.79,"endTime":1703.28,"body":"The apparatus of Gilbert and Sullivan are"},{"startTime":1703.28,"endTime":1706.417,"body":"an interesting insight"},{"startTime":1703.28,"endTime":1706.417,"body":"into the legal profession"},{"startTime":1706.417,"endTime":1711.11,"body":"in the 19th century since"},{"startTime":1706.417,"endTime":1711.11,"body":"Gilbert himself was a barrister"},{"startTime":1711.11,"endTime":1714.14,"body":"who had been unsuccessful"},{"startTime":1711.11,"endTime":1714.14,"body":"in the profession."},{"startTime":1714.14,"endTime":1719.14,"body":"In trial by jury, the"},{"startTime":1714.14,"endTime":1719.14,"body":"judge sings about his time"},{"startTime":1719.44,"endTime":1721.85,"body":"as an impoverished young barrister"},{"startTime":1721.85,"endTime":1724.88,"body":"who did not get sufficient"},{"startTime":1721.85,"endTime":1724.88,"body":"work until he promised"},{"startTime":1724.88,"endTime":1727.163,"body":"to marry the daughter of a rich attorney."},{"startTime":1728.03,"endTime":1733.03,"body":"He sings, I'm not going to"},{"startTime":1728.03,"endTime":1733.03,"body":"sing it, I'll spare you that."},{"startTime":1735.237,"endTime":1738.95,"body":"\"I grew tired of third class journeys"},{"startTime":1738.95,"endTime":1741.107,"body":"and dinners of bread and water.\""},{"startTime":1742.55,"endTime":1747.55,"body":"Conversely, H.M.S Pinafore,"},{"startTime":1742.55,"endTime":1747.55,"body":"Sir Joseph Porter sings"},{"startTime":1749.48,"endTime":1752.72,"body":"about his own rise from an office boy"},{"startTime":1752.72,"endTime":1755.15,"body":"to an attorney's firm, to a junior clerk,"},{"startTime":1755.15,"endTime":1758.54,"body":"to an article clerk to"},{"startTime":1755.15,"endTime":1758.54,"body":"partner and ultimately"},{"startTime":1758.54,"endTime":1760.04,"body":"to a member of Parliament"},{"startTime":1760.04,"endTime":1762.413,"body":"and the first Lord of the Admiralty."},{"startTime":1764.54,"endTime":1767.32,"body":"But the structure of the profession"},{"startTime":1767.32,"endTime":1771.68,"body":"of the bar where barristers"},{"startTime":1767.32,"endTime":1771.68,"body":"had to pay their own way"},{"startTime":1771.68,"endTime":1774.32,"body":"until they could attract sufficient work"},{"startTime":1774.32,"endTime":1779.32,"body":"to make money typically"},{"startTime":1774.32,"endTime":1779.32,"body":"meant that the bar was closed"},{"startTime":1779.6,"endTime":1783.98,"body":"to people who were not"},{"startTime":1779.6,"endTime":1783.98,"body":"from monied backgrounds."},{"startTime":1783.98,"endTime":1788.98,"body":"To an extent, the problem"},{"startTime":1783.98,"endTime":1788.98,"body":"survived into modern times."},{"startTime":1789.86,"endTime":1793.85,"body":"When I came to the bar,"},{"startTime":1789.86,"endTime":1793.85,"body":"it was still the case"},{"startTime":1793.85,"endTime":1798.013,"body":"that many pupil barristers were unpaid"},{"startTime":1799.19,"endTime":1802.043,"body":"during their training, as was I."},{"startTime":1804.47,"endTime":1805.643,"body":"Think about that."},{"startTime":1808.97,"endTime":1813.97,"body":"You train, you do your degree,"},{"startTime":1808.97,"endTime":1813.97,"body":"you then do the bar course."},{"startTime":1815.45,"endTime":1819.203,"body":"You then before you are let"},{"startTime":1815.45,"endTime":1819.203,"body":"loose in the public, you have"},{"startTime":1820.97,"endTime":1824.633,"body":"to do a year's training with no pay."},{"startTime":1828.47,"endTime":1832.07,"body":"In Edmonds against Lawson, a case"},{"startTime":1832.07,"endTime":1837.07,"body":"in 2000, an unpaid pupil"},{"startTime":1832.07,"endTime":1837.07,"body":"barrister sued claiming"},{"startTime":1839.06,"endTime":1843.41,"body":"that she was a worker and was"},{"startTime":1839.06,"endTime":1843.41,"body":"entitled to a minimum wage."},{"startTime":1843.41,"endTime":1846.44,"body":"She won at first instance"},{"startTime":1843.41,"endTime":1846.44,"body":"lost in the Court of Appeal."},{"startTime":1846.44,"endTime":1850.94,"body":"But nowadays chambers,"},{"startTime":1846.44,"endTime":1850.94,"body":"another word for posh word"},{"startTime":1850.94,"endTime":1854.843,"body":"for offices, are required"},{"startTime":1850.94,"endTime":1854.843,"body":"to pay their pupils."},{"startTime":1855.95,"endTime":1859.56,"body":"But this rule was only introduced in 2003"},{"startTime":1860.48,"endTime":1861.74,"body":"and it remains the case"},{"startTime":1861.74,"endTime":1865.91,"body":"that many barristers who"},{"startTime":1861.74,"endTime":1865.91,"body":"primarily do legal aid work,"},{"startTime":1865.91,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"suffer financial hardships in"},{"startTime":1865.91,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"their early years of practice"},{"startTime":1869.78,"endTime":1873.2,"body":"and need financial help from their family."},{"startTime":1873.2,"endTime":1878.2,"body":"And this continues to make"},{"startTime":1873.2,"endTime":1878.2,"body":"the bar less accessible"},{"startTime":1878.48,"endTime":1880.553,"body":"to people from poorer backgrounds."},{"startTime":1882.26,"endTime":1885.98,"body":"And just to add in there,"},{"startTime":1882.26,"endTime":1885.98,"body":"you would've seen recently"},{"startTime":1885.98,"endTime":1890.98,"body":"just last autumn the profession,"},{"startTime":1890.99,"endTime":1894.5,"body":"particularly the criminal"},{"startTime":1890.99,"endTime":1894.5,"body":"bar who was striking"},{"startTime":1894.5,"endTime":1899.5,"body":"because of the extremely"},{"startTime":1894.5,"endTime":1899.5,"body":"poor levels of pay"},{"startTime":1900.98,"endTime":1904.4,"body":"that they were receiving"},{"startTime":1900.98,"endTime":1904.4,"body":"in the, I should say,"},{"startTime":1904.4,"endTime":1906.863,"body":"in England and Wales."},{"startTime":1909.71,"endTime":1912.32,"body":"And although the class"},{"startTime":1909.71,"endTime":1912.32,"body":"divide between barristers"},{"startTime":1912.32,"endTime":1916.7,"body":"and solicitors is much"},{"startTime":1912.32,"endTime":1916.7,"body":"less strong today, some"},{"startTime":1917.81,"endTime":1919.763,"body":"of it still remains."},{"startTime":1920.81,"endTime":1922.76,"body":"In my experience, the title"},{"startTime":1922.76,"endTime":1927.68,"body":"of barristers, barrister still"},{"startTime":1922.76,"endTime":1927.68,"body":"attracts a certain amount"},{"startTime":1927.68,"endTime":1931.85,"body":"of social distinction and deference"},{"startTime":1931.85,"endTime":1935.993,"body":"and the bar is still very much"},{"startTime":1931.85,"endTime":1935.993,"body":"part of the establishment."},{"startTime":1937.22,"endTime":1942.18,"body":"And it maintains much of its"},{"startTime":1937.22,"endTime":1942.18,"body":"traditional pump and ceremony"},{"startTime":1943.07,"endTime":1948.07,"body":"from wearing wigs and gowns"},{"startTime":1943.07,"endTime":1948.07,"body":"to eating dinners at the Inns."},{"startTime":1949.37,"endTime":1951.383,"body":"That still happens today."},{"startTime":1953.96,"endTime":1957.47,"body":"Another important factor is"},{"startTime":1953.96,"endTime":1957.47,"body":"the prestige of barristers is"},{"startTime":1957.47,"endTime":1960.71,"body":"that traditionally the appointments"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1964.208,"body":"to the senior judiciary, the"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1964.208,"body":"High Court, Court of Appeal,"},{"startTime":1964.208,"endTime":1969.208,"body":"the Supreme Court, have been"},{"startTime":1964.208,"endTime":1969.208,"body":"reserved for barristers."},{"startTime":1971.57,"endTime":1974.81,"body":"This is no longer the"},{"startTime":1971.57,"endTime":1974.81,"body":"case and it's now possible"},{"startTime":1974.81,"endTime":1979.627,"body":"for solicitors to be appointed from"},{"startTime":1979.627,"endTime":1984.627,"body":"to the senior judiciary"},{"startTime":1979.627,"endTime":1984.627,"body":"and for legal academics"},{"startTime":1984.95,"endTime":1986.12,"body":"to be appointed."},{"startTime":1986.12,"endTime":1991.12,"body":"But overwhelmingly most"},{"startTime":1986.12,"endTime":1991.12,"body":"senior judges still come"},{"startTime":1991.58,"endTime":1993.71,"body":"from the bar."},{"startTime":1993.71,"endTime":1998.71,"body":"Finally, let's have a look"},{"startTime":1993.71,"endTime":1998.71,"body":"at who regulates barristers."},{"startTime":2000.49,"endTime":2004.63,"body":"So there are four Inns of Courts,"},{"startTime":2000.49,"endTime":2004.63,"body":"I should say who they are."},{"startTime":2004.63,"endTime":2007.723,"body":"Inner Temple, Middle Temple,"},{"startTime":2004.63,"endTime":2007.723,"body":"Gray's Inn, Lincoln's Inn."},{"startTime":2010.09,"endTime":2012.94,"body":"And as the professional society"},{"startTime":2012.94,"endTime":2017.94,"body":"for barristers, they"},{"startTime":2012.94,"endTime":2017.94,"body":"survive to the present day."},{"startTime":2020.29,"endTime":2023.77,"body":"Everyone who wants to be"},{"startTime":2020.29,"endTime":2023.77,"body":"called to the bar still has"},{"startTime":2023.77,"endTime":2026.863,"body":"to join an inn first."},{"startTime":2027.76,"endTime":2030.72,"body":"In 1895, the general council of the bar"},{"startTime":2030.72,"endTime":2032.92,"body":"or the bar council was created"},{"startTime":2032.92,"endTime":2037.92,"body":"as an overarching"},{"startTime":2032.92,"endTime":2037.92,"body":"professional body for the bar."},{"startTime":2038.86,"endTime":2043.84,"body":"The Inns, the bar council"},{"startTime":2038.86,"endTime":2043.84,"body":"regulated barristers."},{"startTime":2043.84,"endTime":2048.84,"body":"That is until 2006 when the"},{"startTime":2043.84,"endTime":2048.84,"body":"Bar Standards Board was created"},{"startTime":2050.98,"endTime":2053.653,"body":"as a separate regulatory body."},{"startTime":2056.35,"endTime":2060.583,"body":"I should say, I'm member of"},{"startTime":2056.35,"endTime":2060.583,"body":"the Bar Standards Board today."},{"startTime":2061.78,"endTime":2066.78,"body":"Technically speaking, the Bar"},{"startTime":2061.78,"endTime":2066.78,"body":"Standards Board is a committee"},{"startTime":2067.06,"endTime":2072.06,"body":"of the bar council, but"},{"startTime":2067.06,"endTime":2072.06,"body":"it operates autonomously"},{"startTime":2072.46,"endTime":2076.243,"body":"in its regulation of barristers."},{"startTime":2078.73,"endTime":2082.337,"body":"It's nice photograph there"},{"startTime":2078.73,"endTime":2082.337,"body":"of the high court down"},{"startTime":2085.63,"endTime":2086.563,"body":"in the Strand."},{"startTime":2088.27,"endTime":2093.27,"body":"So let's look at a split"},{"startTime":2088.27,"endTime":2093.27,"body":"profession and a fused profession."},{"startTime":2101.29,"endTime":2105.94,"body":"Now we've traced the history"},{"startTime":2101.29,"endTime":2105.94,"body":"of the split profession."},{"startTime":2105.94,"endTime":2110.23,"body":"We now know why we have the"},{"startTime":2105.94,"endTime":2110.23,"body":"division between barristers"},{"startTime":2110.23,"endTime":2112.87,"body":"and solicitors and what each of them do"},{"startTime":2112.87,"endTime":2114.94,"body":"on a day-to-day basis."},{"startTime":2114.94,"endTime":2116.83,"body":"Which brings me on to the central question"},{"startTime":2116.83,"endTime":2121.783,"body":"of this lecture, do we need barristers?"},{"startTime":2122.8,"endTime":2127.8,"body":"Or more precisely, do we"},{"startTime":2122.8,"endTime":2127.8,"body":"need a split profession?"},{"startTime":2129.67,"endTime":2134.67,"body":"Now I practice here in England"},{"startTime":2135.04,"endTime":2139.57,"body":"and Wales, which has a split"},{"startTime":2135.04,"endTime":2139.57,"body":"profession and I also practice"},{"startTime":2139.57,"endTime":2142.27,"body":"in other jurisdictions,"},{"startTime":2139.57,"endTime":2142.27,"body":"which does not such"},{"startTime":2142.27,"endTime":2145.993,"body":"as the, some of the islands"},{"startTime":2142.27,"endTime":2145.993,"body":"in the Eastern Caribbean."},{"startTime":2146.98,"endTime":2148.27,"body":"Which like many parts"},{"startTime":2148.27,"endTime":2151.273,"body":"of the commonwealth"},{"startTime":2148.27,"endTime":2151.273,"body":"have a fused profession."},{"startTime":2152.14,"endTime":2156.28,"body":"So I think I'm in a reasonably"},{"startTime":2152.14,"endTime":2156.28,"body":"good position to compare"},{"startTime":2156.28,"endTime":2157.813,"body":"and contrast the two."},{"startTime":2158.71,"endTime":2161.44,"body":"That said, comparing the practice of law"},{"startTime":2161.44,"endTime":2166.44,"body":"in two jurisdictions is"},{"startTime":2161.44,"endTime":2166.44,"body":"necessarily an imperfect exercise."},{"startTime":2168.85,"endTime":2171.97,"body":"The jurisdictions of the Eastern"},{"startTime":2168.85,"endTime":2171.97,"body":"Caribbean are much smaller"},{"startTime":2171.97,"endTime":2175.54,"body":"than England and Wales"},{"startTime":2171.97,"endTime":2175.54,"body":"with a much smaller bar"},{"startTime":2175.54,"endTime":2179.2,"body":"and no two jurisdictions are exactly alike"},{"startTime":2179.2,"endTime":2181.723,"body":"in the nature of their legal problems."},{"startTime":2183.16,"endTime":2186.04,"body":"Let's start with some possible advantages"},{"startTime":2186.04,"endTime":2189.07,"body":"of a split profession and then we'll look"},{"startTime":2189.07,"endTime":2191.353,"body":"at the counter-arguments."},{"startTime":2192.73,"endTime":2197.73,"body":"A common argument in defense"},{"startTime":2192.73,"endTime":2197.73,"body":"of the split profession is"},{"startTime":2198.25,"endTime":2202.66,"body":"that barristers, we are"},{"startTime":2198.25,"endTime":2202.66,"body":"professional advocates."},{"startTime":2202.66,"endTime":2207.66,"body":"We spend our whole career doing"},{"startTime":2202.66,"endTime":2207.66,"body":"written and oral advocacy."},{"startTime":2208.54,"endTime":2213.223,"body":"We spend time crafting art."},{"startTime":2216.713,"endTime":2219.91,"body":"And since our day-to-day workload"},{"startTime":2216.713,"endTime":2219.91,"body":"is so different from that"},{"startTime":2219.91,"endTime":2224.803,"body":"of solicitors, we develop"},{"startTime":2219.91,"endTime":2224.803,"body":"a different skill set."},{"startTime":2225.67,"endTime":2229.87,"body":"And so with our skills"},{"startTime":2229.87,"endTime":2234.87,"body":"as honed advocates, we"},{"startTime":2229.87,"endTime":2234.87,"body":"bring something additional"},{"startTime":2238.63,"endTime":2243.63,"body":"to the table, a different"},{"startTime":2238.63,"endTime":2243.63,"body":"skillset, significant value."},{"startTime":2248.02,"endTime":2253.02,"body":"And in my career, for"},{"startTime":2248.02,"endTime":2253.02,"body":"example, I've cross-examined"},{"startTime":2253.39,"endTime":2258.39,"body":"so many witnesses often in"},{"startTime":2253.39,"endTime":2258.39,"body":"very difficult circumstances."},{"startTime":2259.69,"endTime":2264.69,"body":"And you know, speaking for"},{"startTime":2259.69,"endTime":2264.69,"body":"myself, I feel very comfortable"},{"startTime":2267.88,"endTime":2272.8,"body":"with cross examination than in comparison"},{"startTime":2272.8,"endTime":2275.863,"body":"with a lawyer who rarely does it."},{"startTime":2276.73,"endTime":2281.02,"body":"And this is an argument that"},{"startTime":2276.73,"endTime":2281.02,"body":"is often made by barristers"},{"startTime":2281.02,"endTime":2282.883,"body":"in defense of a split profession."},{"startTime":2284.68,"endTime":2289.68,"body":"In 2018, for example, the then chairman"},{"startTime":2290.71,"endTime":2295.71,"body":"of the bar, Andrew Walker"},{"startTime":2290.71,"endTime":2295.71,"body":"QC, as he then was said this,"},{"startTime":2298.667,"endTime":2303.667,"body":"\"The bars focus is on"},{"startTime":2298.667,"endTime":2303.667,"body":"advocacy and on the expertise"},{"startTime":2304.54,"endTime":2306.19,"body":"of running trials."},{"startTime":2306.19,"endTime":2308.89,"body":"Whereas although there"},{"startTime":2306.19,"endTime":2308.89,"body":"is a litigation element"},{"startTime":2308.89,"endTime":2312.37,"body":"for solicitors, their work is primarily"},{"startTime":2312.37,"endTime":2314.86,"body":"on the transactional work which generates"},{"startTime":2314.86,"endTime":2317.587,"body":"so much of our earnings.\""},{"startTime":2320.14,"endTime":2321.58,"body":"Another advantage is"},{"startTime":2321.58,"endTime":2324.643,"body":"that when a solicitor"},{"startTime":2321.58,"endTime":2324.643,"body":"instructs a barrister,"},{"startTime":2324.643,"endTime":2329.44,"body":"the barrister can sometimes"},{"startTime":2324.643,"endTime":2329.44,"body":"offer an objective"},{"startTime":2329.44,"endTime":2332.68,"body":"and detached view of the case."},{"startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2334.93,"body":"You see, the solicitor"},{"startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2334.93,"body":"may have been working"},{"startTime":2334.93,"endTime":2338.14,"body":"on the client's case for"},{"startTime":2334.93,"endTime":2338.14,"body":"months, years, and may have got"},{"startTime":2338.14,"endTime":2340.873,"body":"to know client really"},{"startTime":2338.14,"endTime":2340.873,"body":"well, may be invested,"},{"startTime":2342.058,"endTime":2346.483,"body":"and rightly so in obtain"},{"startTime":2342.058,"endTime":2346.483,"body":"a success for the client."},{"startTime":2347.32,"endTime":2352.12,"body":"By contrast, the barrister"},{"startTime":2347.32,"endTime":2352.12,"body":"with a shorter involvement"},{"startTime":2352.12,"endTime":2355.75,"body":"in the case and more detachment"},{"startTime":2352.12,"endTime":2355.75,"body":"from the client may be able"},{"startTime":2355.75,"endTime":2360.34,"body":"to offer more detached and"},{"startTime":2355.75,"endTime":2360.34,"body":"they say impartial view."},{"startTime":2360.34,"endTime":2364.66,"body":"All of us lawyers know"},{"startTime":2360.34,"endTime":2364.66,"body":"that when you're knee deep"},{"startTime":2364.66,"endTime":2368.72,"body":"in a case it can sometimes be"},{"startTime":2364.66,"endTime":2368.72,"body":"difficult to see the forest"},{"startTime":2370.09,"endTime":2371.503,"body":"from the trees."},{"startTime":2372.347,"endTime":2375.64,"body":"As Hon Sir Owen Dixon,"},{"startTime":2372.347,"endTime":2375.64,"body":"a former chief justice"},{"startTime":2375.64,"endTime":2378.493,"body":"of the High Court of"},{"startTime":2375.64,"endTime":2378.493,"body":"Australia said in 1952,"},{"startTime":2380.147,"endTime":2382.81,"body":"\"The work of solicitors"},{"startTime":2380.147,"endTime":2382.81,"body":"is in the administration"},{"startTime":2382.81,"endTime":2387.19,"body":"of justice has the greatest"},{"startTime":2382.81,"endTime":2387.19,"body":"possible importance,"},{"startTime":2387.19,"endTime":2389.95,"body":"but their allegiance is perhaps more"},{"startTime":2389.95,"endTime":2393.37,"body":"to their clients who have a more permanent"},{"startTime":2393.37,"endTime":2398.37,"body":"or at all event, a"},{"startTime":2393.37,"endTime":2398.37,"body":"longer relation with them"},{"startTime":2398.86,"endTime":2403.09,"body":"than the transitory relation"},{"startTime":2398.86,"endTime":2403.09,"body":"between client and council."},{"startTime":2403.09,"endTime":2406.36,"body":"When the full enthusiasm and force"},{"startTime":2406.36,"endTime":2409.78,"body":"of the advocate are"},{"startTime":2406.36,"endTime":2409.78,"body":"attached to the individual"},{"startTime":2409.78,"endTime":2412.417,"body":"for a shorter space of time.\""},{"startTime":2416.47,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"This objectivity and"},{"startTime":2416.47,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"independence can also be valuable"},{"startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2423.73,"body":"in context where the"},{"startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2423.73,"body":"client isn't an individual."},{"startTime":2423.73,"endTime":2427.93,"body":"For example, when the"},{"startTime":2423.73,"endTime":2427.93,"body":"Crown Prosecution Service"},{"startTime":2427.93,"endTime":2430.96,"body":"or CPS prosecutes a case"},{"startTime":2430.96,"endTime":2434.83,"body":"in the crown court, it"},{"startTime":2430.96,"endTime":2434.83,"body":"typically instructs barristers"},{"startTime":2434.83,"endTime":2439.33,"body":"who are not themselves"},{"startTime":2434.83,"endTime":2439.33,"body":"employed by the CPS."},{"startTime":2439.33,"endTime":2443.44,"body":"Many of these barristers may"},{"startTime":2439.33,"endTime":2443.44,"body":"have experience of defense work"},{"startTime":2443.44,"endTime":2447.37,"body":"as well as prosecution work"},{"startTime":2443.44,"endTime":2447.37,"body":"and as such they have a measure"},{"startTime":2447.37,"endTime":2450.46,"body":"of independence from the CPS."},{"startTime":2450.46,"endTime":2455.46,"body":"And as such, may be able to"},{"startTime":2450.46,"endTime":2455.46,"body":"take a more objective view"},{"startTime":2457.66,"endTime":2459.613,"body":"than a traditional insider."},{"startTime":2462.61,"endTime":2464.32,"body":"A third advantage is that"},{"startTime":2464.32,"endTime":2469.243,"body":"in a particular case the"},{"startTime":2464.32,"endTime":2469.243,"body":"barrister may have expertise"},{"startTime":2470.32,"endTime":2472.27,"body":"that the solicitor lacks."},{"startTime":2472.27,"endTime":2477.27,"body":"For example, if you're criminal"},{"startTime":2472.27,"endTime":2477.27,"body":"defense solicitor, you have"},{"startTime":2479.23,"endTime":2483.28,"body":"to deal with and you have to"},{"startTime":2479.23,"endTime":2483.28,"body":"deal with an immigration issue"},{"startTime":2483.28,"endTime":2488.28,"body":"that arises in your case, which"},{"startTime":2483.28,"endTime":2488.28,"body":"is outside your expertise."},{"startTime":2488.29,"endTime":2489.34,"body":"You might want"},{"startTime":2489.34,"endTime":2493.813,"body":"to instruct a specialist"},{"startTime":2489.34,"endTime":2493.813,"body":"immigration barrister."},{"startTime":2495.1,"endTime":2498.13,"body":"But there are of course possible answers"},{"startTime":2498.13,"endTime":2499.57,"body":"to each of these points."},{"startTime":2499.57,"endTime":2500.679,"body":"All of these points"},{"startTime":2500.679,"endTime":2503.533,"body":"that I've mentioned,"},{"startTime":2500.679,"endTime":2503.533,"body":"they're fused profession."},{"startTime":2504.43,"endTime":2506.41,"body":"There's no reason why we"},{"startTime":2504.43,"endTime":2506.41,"body":"couldn't have some lawyers"},{"startTime":2506.41,"endTime":2510.79,"body":"who primarily focus as advocates"},{"startTime":2510.79,"endTime":2514.3,"body":"and others who are primarily litigators."},{"startTime":2514.3,"endTime":2517.6,"body":"Indeed, we already have"},{"startTime":2514.3,"endTime":2517.6,"body":"solicitor advocates"},{"startTime":2517.6,"endTime":2521.38,"body":"in England, many of whom"},{"startTime":2517.6,"endTime":2521.38,"body":"have years of experience"},{"startTime":2521.38,"endTime":2524.44,"body":"of courtroom advocacy under their belt"},{"startTime":2524.44,"endTime":2529.44,"body":"and are highly skilled at"},{"startTime":2524.44,"endTime":2529.44,"body":"it while being solicitors."},{"startTime":2530.89,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"Nor is there any reason"},{"startTime":2530.89,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"why lawyers couldn't bring"},{"startTime":2534.37,"endTime":2538.42,"body":"on other lawyers to"},{"startTime":2534.37,"endTime":2538.42,"body":"assist them in cases just"},{"startTime":2538.42,"endTime":2543.04,"body":"as solicitors presently"},{"startTime":2538.42,"endTime":2543.04,"body":"instruct barristers."},{"startTime":2543.04,"endTime":2546.07,"body":"In fact, in my experience"},{"startTime":2546.07,"endTime":2550.96,"body":"in the Eastern Caribbean,"},{"startTime":2546.07,"endTime":2550.96,"body":"this happens all the time."},{"startTime":2550.96,"endTime":2555.96,"body":"An attorney with a big case"},{"startTime":2550.96,"endTime":2555.96,"body":"might bring on a senior attorney"},{"startTime":2556.27,"endTime":2561.27,"body":"at another firm to serve"},{"startTime":2556.27,"endTime":2561.27,"body":"as leading council, just"},{"startTime":2561.88,"endTime":2565.09,"body":"as a big case in England"},{"startTime":2561.88,"endTime":2565.09,"body":"would have leading"},{"startTime":2565.09,"endTime":2567.55,"body":"and junior council."},{"startTime":2567.55,"endTime":2572.55,"body":"So none of the points I've"},{"startTime":2567.55,"endTime":2572.55,"body":"raised is self evidently a reason"},{"startTime":2572.56,"endTime":2575.953,"body":"to maintain a split profession."},{"startTime":2577.03,"endTime":2582.03,"body":"So let's move on as time"},{"startTime":2577.03,"endTime":2582.03,"body":"is tight to look at some"},{"startTime":2582.31,"endTime":2586.573,"body":"of the disadvantages"},{"startTime":2582.31,"endTime":2586.573,"body":"of a split profession."},{"startTime":2587.8,"endTime":2590.95,"body":"Some of these are not"},{"startTime":2587.8,"endTime":2590.95,"body":"necessarily disadvantages"},{"startTime":2590.95,"endTime":2593.62,"body":"of a split profession in abstract,"},{"startTime":2593.62,"endTime":2597.19,"body":"but are disadvantages"},{"startTime":2593.62,"endTime":2597.19,"body":"of the split profession"},{"startTime":2597.19,"endTime":2601.183,"body":"as it currently functions"},{"startTime":2597.19,"endTime":2601.183,"body":"in England and Wales."},{"startTime":2603.64,"endTime":2607.39,"body":"One major disadvantage is the fact"},{"startTime":2607.39,"endTime":2609.79,"body":"that most barristers are self-employed"},{"startTime":2609.79,"endTime":2614.79,"body":"and work in within barristers"},{"startTime":2609.79,"endTime":2614.79,"body":"chambers, posh word"},{"startTime":2614.83,"endTime":2619.48,"body":"for offices, which are associations"},{"startTime":2619.48,"endTime":2622.57,"body":"of self-employed barristers"},{"startTime":2619.48,"endTime":2622.57,"body":"rather than firms."},{"startTime":2622.57,"endTime":2626.53,"body":"Barristers are not salaried"},{"startTime":2622.57,"endTime":2626.53,"body":"and are reliant on fees."},{"startTime":2626.53,"endTime":2628.36,"body":"This creates a range of problems."},{"startTime":2628.36,"endTime":2631.81,"body":"Firstly, as I highlighted"},{"startTime":2628.36,"endTime":2631.81,"body":"earlier, junior barristers"},{"startTime":2631.81,"endTime":2636.273,"body":"who do primarily publicly"},{"startTime":2631.81,"endTime":2636.273,"body":"funded work, legal aid work"},{"startTime":2636.273,"endTime":2640.78,"body":"often suffer financial"},{"startTime":2636.273,"endTime":2640.78,"body":"hardship in their early years."},{"startTime":2640.78,"endTime":2644.17,"body":"This is because legal aid"},{"startTime":2640.78,"endTime":2644.17,"body":"fees tend to take a long time"},{"startTime":2644.17,"endTime":2645.223,"body":"to come through."},{"startTime":2647.17,"endTime":2650.02,"body":"And in some areas such"},{"startTime":2650.02,"endTime":2655.02,"body":"as crime, the fees are insultingly low."},{"startTime":2655.3,"endTime":2658.42,"body":"While barristers can earn better fees"},{"startTime":2658.42,"endTime":2661.275,"body":"from winning civil cases"},{"startTime":2661.275,"endTime":2666.275,"body":"or judicial review,"},{"startTime":2661.275,"endTime":2666.275,"body":"administrative law cases."},{"startTime":2666.76,"endTime":2670.99,"body":"They can secure their"},{"startTime":2666.76,"endTime":2670.99,"body":"fees between the parties"},{"startTime":2670.99,"endTime":2675.99,"body":"and sometimes on some of"},{"startTime":2670.99,"endTime":2675.99,"body":"these cases, fees might be"},{"startTime":2677.41,"endTime":2678.25,"body":"in dispute."},{"startTime":2678.25,"endTime":2681.16,"body":"And if you have a fee"},{"startTime":2678.25,"endTime":2681.16,"body":"dispute, you have to have"},{"startTime":2681.16,"endTime":2683.98,"body":"that resolved by a judge"},{"startTime":2681.16,"endTime":2683.98,"body":"who's known as a cost judge"},{"startTime":2683.98,"endTime":2686.29,"body":"and that might take a long time."},{"startTime":2686.29,"endTime":2691.29,"body":"So many junior barristers may"},{"startTime":2686.29,"endTime":2691.29,"body":"struggle financially for years"},{"startTime":2692.17,"endTime":2695.5,"body":"after completing pupillage"},{"startTime":2692.17,"endTime":2695.5,"body":"and many need help"},{"startTime":2695.5,"endTime":2696.643,"body":"from their family."},{"startTime":2698.98,"endTime":2703.49,"body":"This is a huge deterrent, particularly"},{"startTime":2704.74,"endTime":2709.74,"body":"for working class people"},{"startTime":2704.74,"endTime":2709.74,"body":"who want to come to the bar."},{"startTime":2711.19,"endTime":2715.22,"body":"It also tends to push aspiring barristers"},{"startTime":2717.1,"endTime":2721.933,"body":"into better paid areas"},{"startTime":2717.1,"endTime":2721.933,"body":"of work, commercial work."},{"startTime":2723.82,"endTime":2725.502,"body":"Another problem associated"},{"startTime":2725.502,"endTime":2730.502,"body":"with the self-employment"},{"startTime":2725.502,"endTime":2730.502,"body":"system is the fee in equality."},{"startTime":2731.65,"endTime":2733.81,"body":"This is a controversial subject"},{"startTime":2733.81,"endTime":2736.75,"body":"and I will only touch"},{"startTime":2733.81,"endTime":2736.75,"body":"upon it briefly here,"},{"startTime":2736.75,"endTime":2741.55,"body":"but there can often be"},{"startTime":2736.75,"endTime":2741.55,"body":"significant inequalities in work"},{"startTime":2741.55,"endTime":2743.29,"body":"and fees between different members"},{"startTime":2743.29,"endTime":2746.773,"body":"of the same chambers,"},{"startTime":2743.29,"endTime":2746.773,"body":"posh word for office."},{"startTime":2748.24,"endTime":2752.26,"body":"Sometimes these inequalities"},{"startTime":2748.24,"endTime":2752.26,"body":"replicate broader inequalities"},{"startTime":2752.26,"endTime":2757.26,"body":"in society such as race,"},{"startTime":2752.26,"endTime":2757.26,"body":"gender, class, disability."},{"startTime":2759.16,"endTime":2764.16,"body":"A third problem is that"},{"startTime":2759.16,"endTime":2764.16,"body":"barristers aren't employees"},{"startTime":2764.32,"endTime":2766.72,"body":"and therefore have no right"},{"startTime":2766.72,"endTime":2771.72,"body":"to holiday pay, sick pay,"},{"startTime":2766.72,"endTime":2771.72,"body":"employers pension schemes,"},{"startTime":2773.71,"endTime":2778.71,"body":"paid parental leave, or any of"},{"startTime":2773.71,"endTime":2778.71,"body":"the other benefits associated"},{"startTime":2779.11,"endTime":2781.96,"body":"with being an employee."},{"startTime":2781.96,"endTime":2784.63,"body":"Many chambers though do"},{"startTime":2781.96,"endTime":2784.63,"body":"have insurance policies"},{"startTime":2784.63,"endTime":2786.55,"body":"and pension schemes for their barristers,"},{"startTime":2786.55,"endTime":2791.44,"body":"but these are voluntary and"},{"startTime":2786.55,"endTime":2791.44,"body":"not all barristers can afford"},{"startTime":2791.44,"endTime":2793.0,"body":"to participate in them."},{"startTime":2793.0,"endTime":2795.82,"body":"For the reasons I've"},{"startTime":2793.0,"endTime":2795.82,"body":"already explained about"},{"startTime":2795.82,"endTime":2800.38,"body":"the difficulties in the"},{"startTime":2795.82,"endTime":2800.38,"body":"early years of practice."},{"startTime":2800.38,"endTime":2805.38,"body":"In short, the self-employed"},{"startTime":2800.38,"endTime":2805.38,"body":"bar can often be a sink"},{"startTime":2807.01,"endTime":2811.57,"body":"or swim system whereby it's difficult"},{"startTime":2811.57,"endTime":2815.293,"body":"for marginalized peoples to make a living."},{"startTime":2817.93,"endTime":2822.93,"body":"This is admittedly mitigated"},{"startTime":2817.93,"endTime":2822.93,"body":"by the strong sense"},{"startTime":2823.36,"endTime":2826.0,"body":"of solidarity and collegiality that"},{"startTime":2826.0,"endTime":2829.723,"body":"often exists between barristers."},{"startTime":2831.19,"endTime":2836.17,"body":"Many sources of help exist"},{"startTime":2831.19,"endTime":2836.17,"body":"including, for example,"},{"startTime":2836.17,"endTime":2841.17,"body":"in my own chambers, the Inns"},{"startTime":2836.17,"endTime":2841.17,"body":"of Court, the bar council."},{"startTime":2842.68,"endTime":2844.66,"body":"There's some great"},{"startTime":2842.68,"endTime":2844.66,"body":"things about the bar such"},{"startTime":2844.66,"endTime":2846.7,"body":"as the Bar Mutual Indemnity Fund,"},{"startTime":2846.7,"endTime":2850.21,"body":"which provides professional"},{"startTime":2846.7,"endTime":2850.21,"body":"indemnity insurance"},{"startTime":2850.21,"endTime":2851.65,"body":"for all barristers."},{"startTime":2851.65,"endTime":2854.0,"body":"And it's far better than trying to shop"},{"startTime":2854.0,"endTime":2858.943,"body":"around and get insurance"},{"startTime":2854.0,"endTime":2858.943,"body":"on from the private market."},{"startTime":2860.38,"endTime":2865.21,"body":"So I'm certainly not suggesting"},{"startTime":2860.38,"endTime":2865.21,"body":"that the bar has an everyone"},{"startTime":2865.21,"endTime":2868.483,"body":"for themselves culture, it does not."},{"startTime":2869.47,"endTime":2871.9,"body":"Nor am I trying to"},{"startTime":2869.47,"endTime":2871.9,"body":"discourage anyone from coming"},{"startTime":2871.9,"endTime":2875.58,"body":"to the bar, I am not in."},{"startTime":2875.58,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"In fact, I've spent a great"},{"startTime":2875.58,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"deal of my working life trying"},{"startTime":2878.65,"endTime":2881.14,"body":"to encourage people of color, people"},{"startTime":2881.14,"endTime":2885.98,"body":"from different socio"},{"startTime":2881.14,"endTime":2885.98,"body":"backgrounds, women, to come"},{"startTime":2887.08,"endTime":2889.843,"body":"because the bar needs to be diverse."},{"startTime":2890.95,"endTime":2895.95,"body":"However, it cannot be ignored"},{"startTime":2890.95,"endTime":2895.95,"body":"that the bar, the structure"},{"startTime":2898.78,"endTime":2903.78,"body":"of the self-employed bar"},{"startTime":2898.78,"endTime":2903.78,"body":"naturally creates inequality"},{"startTime":2904.27,"endTime":2905.92,"body":"and hardship."},{"startTime":2905.92,"endTime":2909.04,"body":"And this isn't the fault"},{"startTime":2905.92,"endTime":2909.04,"body":"of individual barristers"},{"startTime":2909.04,"endTime":2911.05,"body":"or indeed they're chambers,"},{"startTime":2911.05,"endTime":2915.643,"body":"but it's one of the system"},{"startTime":2911.05,"endTime":2915.643,"body":"that has been inherited."},{"startTime":2917.41,"endTime":2920.29,"body":"And the problems with"},{"startTime":2917.41,"endTime":2920.29,"body":"self-employment aren't limited"},{"startTime":2920.29,"endTime":2921.64,"body":"to fees."},{"startTime":2921.64,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"Administering a barrister's"},{"startTime":2921.64,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"chambers presents a unique set"},{"startTime":2925.69,"endTime":2929.53,"body":"of challenges for management and staff"},{"startTime":2929.53,"endTime":2932.263,"body":"because barristers are not partners."},{"startTime":2933.67,"endTime":2938.67,"body":"They're self-employed individuals"},{"startTime":2933.67,"endTime":2938.67,"body":"who share the same place"},{"startTime":2939.58,"endTime":2940.84,"body":"of work."},{"startTime":2940.84,"endTime":2944.23,"body":"Members of chambers can"},{"startTime":2940.84,"endTime":2944.23,"body":"and sometimes do appear"},{"startTime":2944.23,"endTime":2949.23,"body":"against one another in court,"},{"startTime":2944.23,"endTime":2949.23,"body":"sometimes on the same case."},{"startTime":2949.81,"endTime":2950.643,"body":"So aside"},{"startTime":2950.643,"endTime":2953.95,"body":"from the self-employment"},{"startTime":2950.643,"endTime":2953.95,"body":"system, another major problem"},{"startTime":2953.95,"endTime":2958.95,"body":"with the split profession is"},{"startTime":2953.95,"endTime":2958.95,"body":"apparently the arbitrary lines"},{"startTime":2959.14,"endTime":2963.913,"body":"between what a solicitor can"},{"startTime":2959.14,"endTime":2963.913,"body":"do and what a barrister can do."},{"startTime":2965.23,"endTime":2969.7,"body":"Barristers, unless we've"},{"startTime":2965.23,"endTime":2969.7,"body":"been specially authorized"},{"startTime":2969.7,"endTime":2972.883,"body":"to, we cannot conduct litigation."},{"startTime":2974.47,"endTime":2978.97,"body":"This means a barrister"},{"startTime":2974.47,"endTime":2978.97,"body":"commits a criminal offense if"},{"startTime":2978.97,"endTime":2982.44,"body":"for example, they issue"},{"startTime":2978.97,"endTime":2982.44,"body":"court proceedings on behalf"},{"startTime":2982.44,"endTime":2984.1,"body":"of the client."},{"startTime":2984.1,"endTime":2989.1,"body":"The boundaries of the conduct"},{"startTime":2984.1,"endTime":2989.1,"body":"of litigation are blurred."},{"startTime":2989.14,"endTime":2993.31,"body":"However, barristers are"},{"startTime":2989.14,"endTime":2993.31,"body":"allowed to file certain things"},{"startTime":2993.31,"endTime":2994.27,"body":"with the court such"},{"startTime":2994.27,"endTime":2998.44,"body":"as bundles, authorities,"},{"startTime":2994.27,"endTime":2998.44,"body":"skeleton arguments."},{"startTime":2998.44,"endTime":3001.05,"body":"And you see these rules"},{"startTime":2998.44,"endTime":3001.05,"body":"can be especially complex"},{"startTime":3001.05,"endTime":3005.49,"body":"and difficult when"},{"startTime":3001.05,"endTime":3005.49,"body":"conducting public access work"},{"startTime":3005.49,"endTime":3009.18,"body":"where a barrister is instructed"},{"startTime":3005.49,"endTime":3009.18,"body":"directly by a client."},{"startTime":3009.18,"endTime":3010.56,"body":"And such a case a client has"},{"startTime":3010.56,"endTime":3015.33,"body":"to conduct the litigation"},{"startTime":3010.56,"endTime":3015.33,"body":"themselves, which means"},{"startTime":3015.33,"endTime":3019.263,"body":"that they have to file the"},{"startTime":3015.33,"endTime":3019.263,"body":"documents with the court."},{"startTime":3020.79,"endTime":3021.84,"body":"There are also limits"},{"startTime":3021.84,"endTime":3024.27,"body":"to what public access"},{"startTime":3021.84,"endTime":3024.27,"body":"barristers are permitted to do"},{"startTime":3024.27,"endTime":3026.64,"body":"in terms of gathering evidence."},{"startTime":3026.64,"endTime":3031.12,"body":"This often creates difficulties"},{"startTime":3026.64,"endTime":3031.12,"body":"for public access barristers"},{"startTime":3032.19,"endTime":3037.14,"body":"and it can be very easy to"},{"startTime":3032.19,"endTime":3037.14,"body":"unintentionally breach the rules."},{"startTime":3037.14,"endTime":3038.58,"body":"It's also difficult for clients"},{"startTime":3038.58,"endTime":3041.55,"body":"to understand what the differences are"},{"startTime":3041.55,"endTime":3042.837,"body":"between what the barrister can do"},{"startTime":3042.837,"endTime":3045.3,"body":"and what the barrister can't do."},{"startTime":3045.3,"endTime":3048.75,"body":"What a solicitor can do and"},{"startTime":3045.3,"endTime":3048.75,"body":"what the solicitor can't do."},{"startTime":3048.75,"endTime":3051.87,"body":"And these problems wouldn't"},{"startTime":3048.75,"endTime":3051.87,"body":"necessarily be alleviated"},{"startTime":3051.87,"endTime":3056.87,"body":"by more barristers being"},{"startTime":3051.87,"endTime":3056.87,"body":"authorized to conduct litigation."},{"startTime":3059.55,"endTime":3061.524,"body":"Since more barristers are"},{"startTime":3059.55,"endTime":3061.524,"body":"self-employed and don't work"},{"startTime":3061.524,"endTime":3063.42,"body":"in firms, many barristers don't"},{"startTime":3063.42,"endTime":3066.12,"body":"have the administrative support systems"},{"startTime":3066.12,"endTime":3068.25,"body":"in place that would allow them"},{"startTime":3068.25,"endTime":3072.273,"body":"to necessarily conduct"},{"startTime":3068.25,"endTime":3072.273,"body":"litigation efficiently."},{"startTime":3073.35,"endTime":3078.35,"body":"You see the restrictions on"},{"startTime":3073.35,"endTime":3078.35,"body":"one side of the coin are just"},{"startTime":3078.36,"endTime":3079.71,"body":"as arbitrary."},{"startTime":3079.71,"endTime":3081.57,"body":"Let's look at those."},{"startTime":3081.57,"endTime":3083.58,"body":"Barristers and solicitors"},{"startTime":3081.57,"endTime":3083.58,"body":"advocates have a monopoly"},{"startTime":3083.58,"endTime":3086.28,"body":"on the rights of audience in"},{"startTime":3083.58,"endTime":3086.28,"body":"the Crown Court, High Court"},{"startTime":3086.28,"endTime":3088.18,"body":"and Court of Appeal and Supreme Court,"},{"startTime":3089.07,"endTime":3092.88,"body":"but not in the magistrate's"},{"startTime":3089.07,"endTime":3092.88,"body":"court or the county court."},{"startTime":3092.88,"endTime":3094.92,"body":"Now we've already looked"},{"startTime":3092.88,"endTime":3094.92,"body":"at the historical origins"},{"startTime":3094.92,"endTime":3096.81,"body":"of this distinction,"},{"startTime":3096.81,"endTime":3100.02,"body":"but it doesn't make a great deal of sense"},{"startTime":3100.02,"endTime":3101.433,"body":"in the modern world."},{"startTime":3102.78,"endTime":3107.78,"body":"After all, the same skillset is required"},{"startTime":3108.09,"endTime":3113.09,"body":"to conduct effective advocacy"},{"startTime":3108.09,"endTime":3113.09,"body":"if it's an inferior court if"},{"startTime":3113.67,"endTime":3115.98,"body":"or if it's a superior court."},{"startTime":3115.98,"endTime":3120.98,"body":"If solicitors can be trusted"},{"startTime":3115.98,"endTime":3120.98,"body":"to carry out advocacy"},{"startTime":3121.38,"endTime":3126.38,"body":"in some of the courts,"},{"startTime":3121.38,"endTime":3126.38,"body":"why not all of the courts?"},{"startTime":3126.48,"endTime":3127.987,"body":"It's no answer to say,"},{"startTime":3127.987,"endTime":3131.13,"body":"\"Well the magistrate's courts"},{"startTime":3127.987,"endTime":3131.13,"body":"and the county courts tend"},{"startTime":3131.13,"endTime":3133.437,"body":"to deal with less serious cases.\""},{"startTime":3135.63,"endTime":3138.42,"body":"The county courts now routinely deal"},{"startTime":3138.42,"endTime":3142.02,"body":"with a lot of high value"},{"startTime":3138.42,"endTime":3142.02,"body":"civil cases as well"},{"startTime":3142.02,"endTime":3147.02,"body":"as high stakes litigation such"},{"startTime":3142.02,"endTime":3147.02,"body":"as possession claims, actions"},{"startTime":3147.06,"endTime":3152.06,"body":"against the police where"},{"startTime":3147.06,"endTime":3152.06,"body":"people may lose their home"},{"startTime":3153.48,"endTime":3154.863,"body":"or their liberty."},{"startTime":3156.03,"endTime":3157.74,"body":"The magistrates courts,"},{"startTime":3157.74,"endTime":3162.42,"body":"including the youth court"},{"startTime":3157.74,"endTime":3162.42,"body":"where children can be tried"},{"startTime":3162.42,"endTime":3166.56,"body":"for relatively serious offenses."},{"startTime":3166.56,"endTime":3171.56,"body":"Solicitors can also carry"},{"startTime":3166.56,"endTime":3171.56,"body":"out advocacy in tribunals"},{"startTime":3171.66,"endTime":3176.58,"body":"and some tribunals are of"},{"startTime":3171.66,"endTime":3176.58,"body":"immense important individuals."},{"startTime":3176.58,"endTime":3180.843,"body":"For instance, a tribunal"},{"startTime":3176.58,"endTime":3180.843,"body":"hearing an asylum claim,"},{"startTime":3181.83,"endTime":3186.83,"body":"which could be literally"},{"startTime":3181.83,"endTime":3186.83,"body":"the matter of life or death."},{"startTime":3186.84,"endTime":3190.29,"body":"If a person has to be returned"},{"startTime":3190.29,"endTime":3194.673,"body":"to a country, they say"},{"startTime":3190.29,"endTime":3194.673,"body":"they are being persecuted."},{"startTime":3196.47,"endTime":3198.06,"body":"That said,"},{"startTime":3198.06,"endTime":3202.86,"body":"as I've said already,"},{"startTime":3198.06,"endTime":3202.86,"body":"advocacy is a specialist skill"},{"startTime":3202.86,"endTime":3206.01,"body":"and it's true that barristers"},{"startTime":3202.86,"endTime":3206.01,"body":"and solicitor advocates tend"},{"startTime":3206.01,"endTime":3208.89,"body":"to have much greater"},{"startTime":3206.01,"endTime":3208.89,"body":"experience of advocacy"},{"startTime":3208.89,"endTime":3211.47,"body":"than does the average solicitor."},{"startTime":3211.47,"endTime":3216.33,"body":"But that doesn't justify"},{"startTime":3211.47,"endTime":3216.33,"body":"drawing an arbitrary line"},{"startTime":3216.33,"endTime":3221.33,"body":"between superior and inferior"},{"startTime":3216.33,"endTime":3221.33,"body":"courts, which exists only"},{"startTime":3221.61,"endTime":3224.343,"body":"for historical reasons."},{"startTime":3225.327,"endTime":3230.327,"body":"An interesting aside, despite"},{"startTime":3225.327,"endTime":3230.327,"body":"the Eastern Caribbean having"},{"startTime":3230.46,"endTime":3235.02,"body":"a few profession, the historical"},{"startTime":3230.46,"endTime":3235.02,"body":"divide between solicitors"},{"startTime":3235.02,"endTime":3239.01,"body":"and barristers is still"},{"startTime":3235.02,"endTime":3239.01,"body":"of some importance there."},{"startTime":3239.01,"endTime":3242.82,"body":"In England, the rule that"},{"startTime":3239.01,"endTime":3242.82,"body":"barristers were immune"},{"startTime":3242.82,"endTime":3247.17,"body":"from actions in negligence has"},{"startTime":3242.82,"endTime":3247.17,"body":"been abolished by case law,"},{"startTime":3247.17,"endTime":3248.88,"body":"but in many jurisdictions"},{"startTime":3248.88,"endTime":3252.81,"body":"in the Commonwealth"},{"startTime":3248.88,"endTime":3252.81,"body":"Caribbean it till exists."},{"startTime":3252.81,"endTime":3257.7,"body":"It gives rise to significant"},{"startTime":3252.81,"endTime":3257.7,"body":"ambiguity about which types"},{"startTime":3257.7,"endTime":3261.12,"body":"of legal work are immune"},{"startTime":3257.7,"endTime":3261.12,"body":"from negligence claims"},{"startTime":3261.12,"endTime":3262.47,"body":"and which are not."},{"startTime":3262.47,"endTime":3265.44,"body":"Since it is only the work"},{"startTime":3262.47,"endTime":3265.44,"body":"of an advocate, which"},{"startTime":3265.44,"endTime":3269.34,"body":"that attracts the immunity,"},{"startTime":3265.44,"endTime":3269.34,"body":"not everything done"},{"startTime":3269.34,"endTime":3271.41,"body":"by the lawyer."},{"startTime":3271.41,"endTime":3274.35,"body":"I should make clear that"},{"startTime":3271.41,"endTime":3274.35,"body":"this is not an argument"},{"startTime":3274.35,"endTime":3277.02,"body":"against defuse profession."},{"startTime":3277.02,"endTime":3278.46,"body":"Rather it's an argument"},{"startTime":3278.46,"endTime":3283.46,"body":"against maintaining archaic immunity."},{"startTime":3284.07,"endTime":3287.85,"body":"Which has been consigned"},{"startTime":3284.07,"endTime":3287.85,"body":"to history in England"},{"startTime":3287.85,"endTime":3290.88,"body":"and should equally be consigned to history"},{"startTime":3290.88,"endTime":3292.593,"body":"in Commonwealth Caribbean."},{"startTime":3293.94,"endTime":3295.983,"body":"So let me come to my conclusions."},{"startTime":3298.14,"endTime":3302.52,"body":"My overall view, which will"},{"startTime":3298.14,"endTime":3302.52,"body":"no doubt be controversial"},{"startTime":3302.52,"endTime":3307.52,"body":"among my colleagues at"},{"startTime":3302.52,"endTime":3307.52,"body":"the bar, is that there is"},{"startTime":3307.59,"endTime":3312.59,"body":"in principle no sensible"},{"startTime":3307.59,"endTime":3312.59,"body":"reason for a split profession."},{"startTime":3314.7,"endTime":3316.08,"body":"The separation between solicitors"},{"startTime":3316.08,"endTime":3320.52,"body":"and barristers exists mainly"},{"startTime":3316.08,"endTime":3320.52,"body":"for historical reasons."},{"startTime":3320.52,"endTime":3321.54,"body":"The lines that are drawn"},{"startTime":3321.54,"endTime":3324.18,"body":"between the two professions"},{"startTime":3321.54,"endTime":3324.18,"body":"don't make a great deal of sense"},{"startTime":3324.18,"endTime":3325.83,"body":"in the modern world."},{"startTime":3325.83,"endTime":3326.67,"body":"And the structure"},{"startTime":3326.67,"endTime":3329.28,"body":"of the bar where most"},{"startTime":3326.67,"endTime":3329.28,"body":"barristers are self-employed"},{"startTime":3329.28,"endTime":3333.09,"body":"creates avoidable difficulties."},{"startTime":3333.09,"endTime":3336.21,"body":"It's true barristers often"},{"startTime":3333.09,"endTime":3336.21,"body":"bring significant benefits"},{"startTime":3336.21,"endTime":3341.1,"body":"to our cases due to their"},{"startTime":3336.21,"endTime":3341.1,"body":"specialists skill and advocacy"},{"startTime":3341.1,"endTime":3343.29,"body":"and our independence."},{"startTime":3343.29,"endTime":3345.87,"body":"Similarly, it's true that"},{"startTime":3343.29,"endTime":3345.87,"body":"solicitors often have skills"},{"startTime":3345.87,"endTime":3348.27,"body":"and experience that"},{"startTime":3345.87,"endTime":3348.27,"body":"most barristers do not,"},{"startTime":3348.27,"endTime":3352.62,"body":"but this does not necessarily"},{"startTime":3348.27,"endTime":3352.62,"body":"require a rigid separation"},{"startTime":3352.62,"endTime":3354.33,"body":"between the two professions,"},{"startTime":3354.33,"endTime":3357.6,"body":"nor does it justify the arbitrary limits"},{"startTime":3357.6,"endTime":3359.643,"body":"on what each can do."},{"startTime":3361.74,"endTime":3364.29,"body":"That said, I'm not necessarily calling"},{"startTime":3364.29,"endTime":3366.063,"body":"for an immediate change."},{"startTime":3366.93,"endTime":3368.91,"body":"It would be very difficult"},{"startTime":3366.93,"endTime":3368.91,"body":"and very disruptive"},{"startTime":3368.91,"endTime":3372.21,"body":"to fuse the profession overnight."},{"startTime":3372.21,"endTime":3374.01,"body":"And we need to recognize"},{"startTime":3372.21,"endTime":3374.01,"body":"that the structure"},{"startTime":3374.01,"endTime":3376.92,"body":"of the legal profession does not exist"},{"startTime":3376.92,"endTime":3379.2,"body":"in a political vacuum."},{"startTime":3379.2,"endTime":3382.53,"body":"We are having this conversation"},{"startTime":3379.2,"endTime":3382.53,"body":"against the backdrop"},{"startTime":3382.53,"endTime":3386.22,"body":"of systemic underfunding of legal aid"},{"startTime":3386.22,"endTime":3388.59,"body":"over the past two decades."},{"startTime":3388.59,"endTime":3391.44,"body":"Many of the financial pressures"},{"startTime":3388.59,"endTime":3391.44,"body":"on the self-employed bar"},{"startTime":3391.44,"endTime":3394.26,"body":"and indeed the financial pressures"},{"startTime":3394.26,"endTime":3396.87,"body":"on solicitors firms are caused"},{"startTime":3396.87,"endTime":3401.403,"body":"by the current state of legal aid."},{"startTime":3402.36,"endTime":3404.64,"body":"The legal aid sentencing"},{"startTime":3402.36,"endTime":3404.64,"body":"offense, punishment"},{"startTime":3404.64,"endTime":3406.86,"body":"and offenders act in 2012."},{"startTime":3406.86,"endTime":3410.28,"body":"Which radically, radically"},{"startTime":3406.86,"endTime":3410.28,"body":"reduced the scope"},{"startTime":3410.28,"endTime":3413.85,"body":"of legal aid and was a huge"},{"startTime":3410.28,"endTime":3413.85,"body":"blow to the legal profession and"},{"startTime":3413.85,"endTime":3416.4,"body":"to the integrity of the legal system"},{"startTime":3416.4,"endTime":3419.523,"body":"from which I say it has never recovered."},{"startTime":3421.5,"endTime":3426.36,"body":"Essentially, our system"},{"startTime":3421.5,"endTime":3426.36,"body":"has to be funded properly."},{"startTime":3426.36,"endTime":3429.87,"body":"So finally, let me say"},{"startTime":3426.36,"endTime":3429.87,"body":"this, the legal distinctions"},{"startTime":3429.87,"endTime":3431.25,"body":"between what solicitors"},{"startTime":3431.25,"endTime":3435.75,"body":"and barristers do have already"},{"startTime":3431.25,"endTime":3435.75,"body":"been significantly weakened"},{"startTime":3435.75,"endTime":3437.583,"body":"in recent decades."},{"startTime":3438.63,"endTime":3442.44,"body":"That process should continue,"},{"startTime":3438.63,"endTime":3442.44,"body":"but this should happen"},{"startTime":3442.44,"endTime":3447.44,"body":"alongside an increase in"},{"startTime":3442.44,"endTime":3447.44,"body":"legal aid rates, the repeal"},{"startTime":3449.31,"endTime":3453.72,"body":"of the 2012 act and a"},{"startTime":3449.31,"endTime":3453.72,"body":"restoration of the full scope"},{"startTime":3453.72,"endTime":3458.01,"body":"of legal aid and a commitment"},{"startTime":3453.72,"endTime":3458.01,"body":"to fund the administration"},{"startTime":3458.01,"endTime":3460.08,"body":"of justice properly."},{"startTime":3460.08,"endTime":3461.347,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3461.347,"endTime":3464.347,"body":"(audience clapping)"},{"startTime":3468.754,"endTime":3472.35,"body":"- Thank you, Leslie. That"},{"startTime":3468.754,"endTime":3472.35,"body":"was a wonderful talk."},{"startTime":3472.35,"endTime":3474.6,"body":"We are quite tight on time,"},{"startTime":3474.6,"endTime":3477.9,"body":"but we could have just a couple"},{"startTime":3474.6,"endTime":3477.9,"body":"of short questions, maybe."},{"startTime":3477.9,"endTime":3479.64,"body":"I've got one online,"},{"startTime":3479.64,"endTime":3482.73,"body":"which is talking very much"},{"startTime":3479.64,"endTime":3482.73,"body":"about what you finished with."},{"startTime":3482.73,"endTime":3486.12,"body":"Which is that, \"Without legal aid or"},{"startTime":3486.12,"endTime":3487.95,"body":"with legal aid so strictly reduced."},{"startTime":3487.95,"endTime":3490.26,"body":"So we are now seeing more people"},{"startTime":3487.95,"endTime":3490.26,"body":"trying to defend themselves"},{"startTime":3490.26,"endTime":3492.66,"body":"in court with poor outcomes.\""},{"startTime":3492.66,"endTime":3496.753,"body":"- Unfortunately, I think the"},{"startTime":3492.66,"endTime":3496.753,"body":"answer to that is yes and far"},{"startTime":3497.91,"endTime":3501.21,"body":"from assistant justice,"},{"startTime":3497.91,"endTime":3501.21,"body":"it's tying up the courts."},{"startTime":3501.21,"endTime":3502.44,"body":"It means that judges have"},{"startTime":3502.44,"endTime":3506.61,"body":"to spend more time helping"},{"startTime":3502.44,"endTime":3506.61,"body":"unrepresented litigants."},{"startTime":3506.61,"endTime":3510.51,"body":"And when the courts get"},{"startTime":3506.61,"endTime":3510.51,"body":"tied up, that's less justice"},{"startTime":3510.51,"endTime":3511.71,"body":"for everyone else."},{"startTime":3511.71,"endTime":3515.49,"body":"So I think short answer is yes."},{"startTime":3515.49,"endTime":3516.78,"body":"I think there was a question there."},{"startTime":3516.78,"endTime":3518.032,"body":"- Lovely."},{"startTime":3518.032,"endTime":3518.865,"body":"- [Audience Member 1] Do you"},{"startTime":3518.032,"endTime":3518.865,"body":"think there'll be a danger"},{"startTime":3518.865,"endTime":3520.32,"body":"if you merge the professions"},{"startTime":3520.32,"endTime":3522.51,"body":"or essentially you have a fused profession"},{"startTime":3522.51,"endTime":3526.56,"body":"where all legal work operates"},{"startTime":3522.51,"endTime":3526.56,"body":"under the law firm model,"},{"startTime":3526.56,"endTime":3527.85,"body":"either as a public company"},{"startTime":3527.85,"endTime":3532.85,"body":"or an LLP, where effectively"},{"startTime":3527.85,"endTime":3532.85,"body":"you adopt another form"},{"startTime":3532.86,"endTime":3533.693,"body":"of inequality?"},{"startTime":3533.693,"endTime":3536.45,"body":"Because a junior barrister takes home 85%"},{"startTime":3536.45,"endTime":3537.36,"body":"of what they bill."},{"startTime":3537.36,"endTime":3539.25,"body":"A junior solicitor often bills three"},{"startTime":3539.25,"endTime":3540.93,"body":"or four times what they're actually paid."},{"startTime":3540.93,"endTime":3542.43,"body":"And you have a small class"},{"startTime":3542.43,"endTime":3545.07,"body":"of equity partners who"},{"startTime":3542.43,"endTime":3545.07,"body":"cream lots off the top."},{"startTime":3545.07,"endTime":3548.073,"body":"So in you're not replacing"},{"startTime":3545.07,"endTime":3548.073,"body":"quite a privileged profession"},{"startTime":3548.073,"endTime":3550.35,"body":"that almost operates like a medieval guild"},{"startTime":3550.35,"endTime":3553.2,"body":"with a very, very catalyst"},{"startTime":3550.35,"endTime":3553.2,"body":"one that actually has"},{"startTime":3553.2,"endTime":3556.413,"body":"that kind of almost elite"},{"startTime":3553.2,"endTime":3556.413,"body":"catalyst cast at the center of it."},{"startTime":3558.173,"endTime":3560.73,"body":"- It's a valid point you make."},{"startTime":3560.73,"endTime":3562.41,"body":"I think the answer to that point is"},{"startTime":3562.41,"endTime":3567.41,"body":"to have different models of"},{"startTime":3562.41,"endTime":3567.41,"body":"partnerships, firms collectives."},{"startTime":3569.16,"endTime":3574.16,"body":"'Cause remember, in terms"},{"startTime":3569.16,"endTime":3574.16,"body":"of those who were able"},{"startTime":3574.62,"endTime":3576.51,"body":"to conduct litigation,"},{"startTime":3576.51,"endTime":3580.57,"body":"at one stage we had, you know,"},{"startTime":3576.51,"endTime":3580.57,"body":"properly funded law centers"},{"startTime":3581.7,"endTime":3586.47,"body":"and so they law centers"},{"startTime":3581.7,"endTime":3586.47,"body":"didn't necessarily adopt a,"},{"startTime":3586.47,"endTime":3589.14,"body":"you know, private firm model."},{"startTime":3589.14,"endTime":3591.9,"body":"So I think we would need to"},{"startTime":3589.14,"endTime":3591.9,"body":"be creative about the types"},{"startTime":3591.9,"endTime":3595.17,"body":"of models that we would"},{"startTime":3591.9,"endTime":3595.17,"body":"have in mind in terms"},{"startTime":3595.17,"endTime":3597.06,"body":"of a fused profession."},{"startTime":3597.06,"endTime":3600.75,"body":"It doesn't necessarily mean"},{"startTime":3597.06,"endTime":3600.75,"body":"that we, you know, we just have"},{"startTime":3600.75,"endTime":3603.18,"body":"to follow the big solicitor model."},{"startTime":3603.18,"endTime":3608.18,"body":"I think though what is likely"},{"startTime":3603.18,"endTime":3608.18,"body":"to happen, we're likely"},{"startTime":3609.6,"endTime":3614.6,"body":"to have big rich firms and smaller firms"},{"startTime":3615.39,"endTime":3618.42,"body":"and there will be a division there."},{"startTime":3618.42,"endTime":3621.454,"body":"And I don't know how we"},{"startTime":3618.42,"endTime":3621.454,"body":"would get around that."},{"startTime":3621.454,"endTime":3622.65,"body":"- [Audience Member 2]"},{"startTime":3621.454,"endTime":3622.65,"body":"Do you think, especially"},{"startTime":3622.65,"endTime":3624.99,"body":"what's happening with"},{"startTime":3622.65,"endTime":3624.99,"body":"the criminal bar, a lot"},{"startTime":3624.99,"endTime":3628.56,"body":"of younger barristers or aspiring"},{"startTime":3624.99,"endTime":3628.56,"body":"barristers are then going"},{"startTime":3628.56,"endTime":3629.52,"body":"to get discouraged"},{"startTime":3629.52,"endTime":3634.44,"body":"and maybe pursue the"},{"startTime":3629.52,"endTime":3634.44,"body":"solicitor advocate route so"},{"startTime":3634.44,"endTime":3635.82,"body":"that, you know, they have the benefits"},{"startTime":3635.82,"endTime":3638.31,"body":"that you've talked about,"},{"startTime":3635.82,"endTime":3638.31,"body":"but still get the chance"},{"startTime":3638.31,"endTime":3643.31,"body":"to advocate in courts and,"},{"startTime":3638.31,"endTime":3643.31,"body":"you know, be a solicitor"},{"startTime":3643.59,"endTime":3645.51,"body":"and have the comfortability I would say,"},{"startTime":3645.51,"endTime":3646.8,"body":"but also get the chance"},{"startTime":3646.8,"endTime":3650.43,"body":"to, you know, sort of be a barrister?"},{"startTime":3650.43,"endTime":3654.26,"body":"- I think, again, short"},{"startTime":3650.43,"endTime":3654.26,"body":"answer to that, I think yes."},{"startTime":3654.26,"endTime":3656.43,"body":"And I think that's been"},{"startTime":3654.26,"endTime":3656.43,"body":"happening for years."},{"startTime":3656.43,"endTime":3661.43,"body":"I think particularly"},{"startTime":3656.43,"endTime":3661.43,"body":"when I came to the bar"},{"startTime":3663.21,"endTime":3667.35,"body":"at least there were local authority grants"},{"startTime":3667.35,"endTime":3670.53,"body":"to do the bar finals"},{"startTime":3670.53,"endTime":3674.25,"body":"and there weren't as many student loans."},{"startTime":3674.25,"endTime":3678.09,"body":"What you have now, you have"},{"startTime":3674.25,"endTime":3678.09,"body":"a system whereby, you know,"},{"startTime":3678.09,"endTime":3680.88,"body":"students are leaving university"},{"startTime":3678.09,"endTime":3680.88,"body":"where a significant amount"},{"startTime":3680.88,"endTime":3683.07,"body":"of university debt."},{"startTime":3683.07,"endTime":3684.3,"body":"They then have to do one"},{"startTime":3684.3,"endTime":3689.28,"body":"of the bar courses,"},{"startTime":3684.3,"endTime":3689.28,"body":"which are very expensive."},{"startTime":3689.28,"endTime":3692.49,"body":"So that's debt on top of debt."},{"startTime":3692.49,"endTime":3696.39,"body":"And then there's one of the"},{"startTime":3692.49,"endTime":3696.39,"body":"things I didn't have a chance"},{"startTime":3696.39,"endTime":3701.39,"body":"to go into, it's so highly"},{"startTime":3696.39,"endTime":3701.39,"body":"competitive now to get"},{"startTime":3701.73,"endTime":3704.25,"body":"into chambers."},{"startTime":3704.25,"endTime":3707.04,"body":"So, you know, you take a chance."},{"startTime":3707.04,"endTime":3710.19,"body":"And not only is it really"},{"startTime":3707.04,"endTime":3710.19,"body":"highly competitive, even"},{"startTime":3710.19,"endTime":3714.21,"body":"if you do get into chambers,"},{"startTime":3710.19,"endTime":3714.21,"body":"if you want to do, you know,"},{"startTime":3714.21,"endTime":3716.814,"body":"if you want to do what I describe"},{"startTime":3716.814,"endTime":3719.52,"body":"as progressive socially justice work,"},{"startTime":3719.52,"endTime":3722.79,"body":"that work is extremely poorly paid."},{"startTime":3722.79,"endTime":3726.27,"body":"And so you worried about how"},{"startTime":3722.79,"endTime":3726.27,"body":"you're ever going to clear"},{"startTime":3726.27,"endTime":3727.32,"body":"that debt?"},{"startTime":3727.32,"endTime":3732.32,"body":"And yes, a number of, you"},{"startTime":3727.32,"endTime":3732.32,"body":"know, aspiring great minds"},{"startTime":3733.35,"endTime":3736.447,"body":"that could be entering"},{"startTime":3733.35,"endTime":3736.447,"body":"the bar are deciding,"},{"startTime":3736.447,"endTime":3738.84,"body":"\"Look, I can't afford this.\""},{"startTime":3738.84,"endTime":3743.84,"body":"And are going into what they"},{"startTime":3738.84,"endTime":3743.84,"body":"consider to be more certain."},{"startTime":3743.91,"endTime":3745.92,"body":"And don't get me wrong, I'm"},{"startTime":3743.91,"endTime":3745.92,"body":"not suggesting it's easy"},{"startTime":3745.92,"endTime":3748.11,"body":"to get into solicitors"},{"startTime":3745.92,"endTime":3748.11,"body":"profession 'cause there's a lot"},{"startTime":3748.11,"endTime":3752.91,"body":"of competition there to"},{"startTime":3748.11,"endTime":3752.91,"body":"improve their chances"},{"startTime":3752.91,"endTime":3753.993,"body":"and reduce that debt."},{"startTime":3755.056,"endTime":3758.043,"body":"- Thank you very much. I'm"},{"startTime":3755.056,"endTime":3758.043,"body":"sorry we're out of time now."},{"startTime":3758.043,"endTime":3760.317,"body":"It just remains for me to"},{"startTime":3758.043,"endTime":3760.317,"body":"say thank you very much"},{"startTime":3760.317,"endTime":3761.881,"body":"to Professor Leslie."},{"startTime":3760.317,"endTime":3761.881,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":3761.881,"endTime":3764.964,"body":"(audience clapping)"}]}