{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.158,"endTime":2.991,"body":"(whooshing music)"},{"startTime":6.63,"endTime":8.19,"body":"- Good evening, ladies and gentlemen."},{"startTime":8.19,"endTime":9.24,"body":"My name's Martin Elliot,"},{"startTime":9.24,"endTime":13.14,"body":"I'm currently the provost"},{"startTime":9.24,"endTime":13.14,"body":"of Gresham College,"},{"startTime":13.14,"endTime":15.78,"body":"and I'm really pleased to welcome you"},{"startTime":15.78,"endTime":18.36,"body":"to a full hall tonight at the college,"},{"startTime":18.36,"endTime":21.15,"body":"and those of you who are"},{"startTime":18.36,"endTime":21.15,"body":"watching online as well."},{"startTime":21.15,"endTime":22.98,"body":"This is, I think,"},{"startTime":22.98,"endTime":25.533,"body":"a very important lecture"},{"startTime":22.98,"endTime":25.533,"body":"that we are going to hear."},{"startTime":27.06,"endTime":31.08,"body":"The relationships between"},{"startTime":27.06,"endTime":31.08,"body":"governments, commerce,"},{"startTime":31.08,"endTime":32.76,"body":"and the people who do the work,"},{"startTime":32.76,"endTime":35.79,"body":"who labor to create the wealth,"},{"startTime":35.79,"endTime":36.993,"body":"often of the few,"},{"startTime":39.0,"endTime":41.88,"body":"are contentious and"},{"startTime":39.0,"endTime":41.88,"body":"discussed more and more"},{"startTime":41.88,"endTime":44.853,"body":"as the gap between rich"},{"startTime":41.88,"endTime":44.853,"body":"and poor widens again."},{"startTime":46.35,"endTime":49.47,"body":"The public discourse towards exposure"},{"startTime":49.47,"endTime":53.89,"body":"of those who were involved"},{"startTime":49.47,"endTime":53.89,"body":"in earning money from slavery"},{"startTime":56.22,"endTime":59.1,"body":"has emerged more and more"},{"startTime":59.1,"endTime":61.0,"body":"in recent months and recent years"},{"startTime":62.01,"endTime":65.163,"body":"towards their disgrace and"},{"startTime":62.01,"endTime":65.163,"body":"demands for restitution."},{"startTime":66.81,"endTime":69.72,"body":"But the details of those relationships"},{"startTime":69.72,"endTime":70.74,"body":"are often more complex,"},{"startTime":70.74,"endTime":74.04,"body":"and somehow, they kind"},{"startTime":70.74,"endTime":74.04,"body":"of escaped the history"},{"startTime":74.04,"endTime":76.5,"body":"that many of us were taught"},{"startTime":74.04,"endTime":76.5,"body":"at school, and later,"},{"startTime":76.5,"endTime":78.93,"body":"and even that we can read about."},{"startTime":78.93,"endTime":82.29,"body":"Tonight, we are privileged to welcome back"},{"startTime":82.29,"endTime":84.33,"body":"Professor Martin Daunton"},{"startTime":84.33,"endTime":85.163,"body":"to put that right,"},{"startTime":85.163,"endTime":88.8,"body":"and to recalibrate the historical context"},{"startTime":88.8,"endTime":91.173,"body":"of this difficult part of our history."},{"startTime":92.34,"endTime":95.43,"body":"But it's not entirely"},{"startTime":92.34,"endTime":95.43,"body":"our history, I think,"},{"startTime":95.43,"endTime":97.23,"body":"because as we were"},{"startTime":95.43,"endTime":97.23,"body":"discussing just beforehand,"},{"startTime":97.23,"endTime":100.59,"body":"slavery still exists."},{"startTime":100.59,"endTime":103.14,"body":"So please join me in"},{"startTime":100.59,"endTime":103.14,"body":"welcoming Martin Daunton"},{"startTime":103.14,"endTime":105.53,"body":"to give his lecture this evening."},{"startTime":105.53,"endTime":108.53,"body":"(audience applauds)"},{"startTime":112.08,"endTime":116.37,"body":"- At Dorchester, on the"},{"startTime":112.08,"endTime":116.37,"body":"4th of October, 1774,"},{"startTime":116.37,"endTime":120.24,"body":"John Gordon, the owner of a"},{"startTime":116.37,"endTime":120.24,"body":"slave plantation in Jamaica,"},{"startTime":120.24,"endTime":122.583,"body":"died on his way back to the Caribbean."},{"startTime":123.72,"endTime":124.83,"body":"St. Peter's Church,"},{"startTime":124.83,"endTime":127.86,"body":"where this memorial is currently located,"},{"startTime":127.86,"endTime":130.89,"body":"recently applied to remove it,"},{"startTime":130.89,"endTime":134.79,"body":"a request that collides with"},{"startTime":130.89,"endTime":134.79,"body":"a policy of Historic England"},{"startTime":134.79,"endTime":137.643,"body":"to retain and explain."},{"startTime":138.9,"endTime":141.84,"body":"If that memorial were to be retained,"},{"startTime":141.84,"endTime":144.36,"body":"explaining it would open up"},{"startTime":144.36,"endTime":147.33,"body":"the entire complicated and emotive subject"},{"startTime":147.33,"endTime":149.643,"body":"of slavery in the British Empire."},{"startTime":150.54,"endTime":153.963,"body":"How can we provide an explanation?"},{"startTime":155.43,"endTime":158.31,"body":"The dangerous rebellion,"},{"startTime":158.31,"endTime":159.99,"body":"which is referred to there,"},{"startTime":159.99,"endTime":163.26,"body":"of 1760, in Jamaica,"},{"startTime":163.26,"endTime":165.033,"body":"was Tacky's Revolt."},{"startTime":165.93,"endTime":169.05,"body":"It occurred during the"},{"startTime":165.93,"endTime":169.05,"body":"global battle with France"},{"startTime":169.05,"endTime":174.05,"body":"in the Seven Years' War of 1756 to 1763,"},{"startTime":174.84,"endTime":177.03,"body":"which took place across Europe,"},{"startTime":177.03,"endTime":180.633,"body":"the Caribbean, North America, and India."},{"startTime":181.47,"endTime":183.15,"body":"The revolt in Jamaica"},{"startTime":183.15,"endTime":186.873,"body":"should be seen as part of"},{"startTime":183.15,"endTime":186.873,"body":"that wider global conflict."},{"startTime":188.46,"endTime":189.96,"body":"The abolitionists,"},{"startTime":189.96,"endTime":192.63,"body":"who argued for the end of the slave trade,"},{"startTime":192.63,"endTime":193.863,"body":"and then slavery,"},{"startTime":194.79,"endTime":199.23,"body":"portrayed the enslaved people"},{"startTime":194.79,"endTime":199.23,"body":"as pleading for freedom,"},{"startTime":199.23,"endTime":204.23,"body":"as in the medallion produced"},{"startTime":199.23,"endTime":204.23,"body":"by Josiah Wedgwood in 1787"},{"startTime":204.54,"endTime":208.8,"body":"or the tomb of Charles James Fox of 1822"},{"startTime":208.8,"endTime":210.123,"body":"in Westminster Abbey."},{"startTime":211.35,"endTime":215.01,"body":"In reality, as the revolt of 1760 showed,"},{"startTime":215.01,"endTime":220.01,"body":"slaves resisted and were active"},{"startTime":215.01,"endTime":220.01,"body":"agents in Tacky's Revolt,"},{"startTime":221.412,"endTime":225.18,"body":"in the revolt in Demerara in 1823,"},{"startTime":225.18,"endTime":228.453,"body":"and again in Jamaica in 1831."},{"startTime":229.92,"endTime":233.79,"body":"Many slaves had been warriors in Africa"},{"startTime":233.79,"endTime":237.123,"body":"and were skilled in bush"},{"startTime":233.79,"endTime":237.123,"body":"or guerrilla warfare."},{"startTime":238.44,"endTime":242.28,"body":"This was politically uncomfortable"},{"startTime":238.44,"endTime":242.28,"body":"for the abolitionists,"},{"startTime":242.28,"endTime":244.86,"body":"who portrayed supplicant slaves"},{"startTime":244.86,"endTime":249.243,"body":"to be rescued by paternalistic reformers."},{"startTime":250.8,"endTime":254.433,"body":"Well, slavery in the Caribbean was brutal,"},{"startTime":256.26,"endTime":259.65,"body":"the disease environment was challenging,"},{"startTime":259.65,"endTime":263.55,"body":"and labor in sugar"},{"startTime":259.65,"endTime":263.55,"body":"cultivation, as shown here,"},{"startTime":263.55,"endTime":265.14,"body":"was harsh,"},{"startTime":265.14,"endTime":268.293,"body":"especially in preparing"},{"startTime":265.14,"endTime":268.293,"body":"the ground for planting."},{"startTime":269.43,"endTime":274.14,"body":"The overseers on slave"},{"startTime":269.43,"endTime":274.14,"body":"plantations maximized production"},{"startTime":274.14,"endTime":276.393,"body":"by driving the slaves."},{"startTime":277.56,"endTime":280.47,"body":"One observer remarks, and I quote,"},{"startTime":280.47,"endTime":283.327,"body":"he heard many of the overseers say,"},{"startTime":283.327,"endTime":285.067,"body":"\"I have made my employer"},{"startTime":285.067,"endTime":289.837,"body":"\"20, 30, 40 more hogsheads"},{"startTime":285.067,"endTime":289.837,"body":"of sugar per year"},{"startTime":289.837,"endTime":293.497,"body":"\"than any of my predecessors ever did."},{"startTime":293.497,"endTime":297.067,"body":"\"Though I have killed 30"},{"startTime":293.497,"endTime":297.067,"body":"or 40 Negros per year more,"},{"startTime":297.067,"endTime":300.387,"body":"\"the produce has been more than adequate.\""},{"startTime":301.56,"endTime":305.19,"body":"Well, the disease"},{"startTime":301.56,"endTime":305.19,"body":"environment and that behavior"},{"startTime":305.19,"endTime":309.69,"body":"meant that the death rate"},{"startTime":305.19,"endTime":309.69,"body":"was higher than the births,"},{"startTime":309.69,"endTime":312.123,"body":"that's the death rate"},{"startTime":309.69,"endTime":312.123,"body":"there, there's the births."},{"startTime":313.8,"endTime":316.89,"body":"And if we take one plantation,"},{"startTime":316.89,"endTime":320.88,"body":"the Mesopotamia Estate in Jamaica,"},{"startTime":320.88,"endTime":324.66,"body":"between 1762 and 1789,"},{"startTime":324.66,"endTime":329.384,"body":"its total enslaved population grew by 31,"},{"startTime":329.384,"endTime":334.247,"body":"it was only by buying,"},{"startTime":329.384,"endTime":334.247,"body":"from Africa, 160 slaves."},{"startTime":335.73,"endTime":337.683,"body":"Unlike in North America,"},{"startTime":339.12,"endTime":342.3,"body":"the slave population"},{"startTime":339.12,"endTime":342.3,"body":"did not reproduce itself"},{"startTime":342.3,"endTime":344.073,"body":"in the Caribbean,"},{"startTime":346.8,"endTime":350.28,"body":"so you needed to have"},{"startTime":346.8,"endTime":350.28,"body":"continued slave trade"},{"startTime":350.28,"endTime":352.35,"body":"from across the Atlantic,"},{"startTime":352.35,"endTime":356.793,"body":"as shown here in the"},{"startTime":352.35,"endTime":356.793,"body":"Slave Voyages Database."},{"startTime":357.93,"endTime":361.95,"body":"And the peak of the British slave trade"},{"startTime":361.95,"endTime":365.88,"body":"was in the third quarter"},{"startTime":361.95,"endTime":365.88,"body":"of the 18th century,"},{"startTime":365.88,"endTime":370.59,"body":"about 832,000 enslaved people carried."},{"startTime":370.59,"endTime":374.28,"body":"After the abolition of"},{"startTime":370.59,"endTime":374.28,"body":"the slave trade in 1807,"},{"startTime":374.28,"endTime":377.7,"body":"it was the Portuguese and the Brazilians"},{"startTime":377.7,"endTime":382.7,"body":"who were taking over"},{"startTime":377.7,"endTime":382.7,"body":"the bulk of the trade,"},{"startTime":383.04,"endTime":388.04,"body":"so it continued right through"},{"startTime":383.04,"endTime":388.04,"body":"into the mid 19th century."},{"startTime":390.0,"endTime":394.98,"body":"Of the slaves leaving in British ships,"},{"startTime":394.98,"endTime":399.98,"body":"about 272,000 went to Jamaica,"},{"startTime":402.75,"endTime":406.02,"body":"the area I've just been"},{"startTime":402.75,"endTime":406.02,"body":"concentrating upon."},{"startTime":406.02,"endTime":410.79,"body":"So, during that peak"},{"startTime":406.02,"endTime":410.79,"body":"period of 1751 to '75,"},{"startTime":410.79,"endTime":411.623,"body":"the British ships"},{"startTime":411.623,"endTime":416.6,"body":"carried about 43% of all"},{"startTime":411.623,"endTime":416.6,"body":"slaves crossing the Atlantic."},{"startTime":419.28,"endTime":421.8,"body":"So, where did the slaves come from?"},{"startTime":421.8,"endTime":424.8,"body":"How were they taken into captivity?"},{"startTime":424.8,"endTime":426.03,"body":"And there, we need to look at"},{"startTime":426.03,"endTime":428.493,"body":"what was happening in West Africa."},{"startTime":430.5,"endTime":432.96,"body":"In the 16th, 17th century,"},{"startTime":432.96,"endTime":436.08,"body":"there were great empires in"},{"startTime":432.96,"endTime":436.08,"body":"the northern part of Africa,"},{"startTime":436.08,"endTime":438.15,"body":"in the Sahel area,"},{"startTime":438.15,"endTime":438.99,"body":"like the Mali,"},{"startTime":438.99,"endTime":442.38,"body":"we know the great forts of Timbuktu."},{"startTime":442.38,"endTime":445.32,"body":"They broke down in the 17th century"},{"startTime":445.32,"endTime":450.183,"body":"and were replaced by smaller kingdoms,"},{"startTime":452.43,"endTime":456.0,"body":"centralized kingdoms, centralized states,"},{"startTime":456.0,"endTime":459.213,"body":"and they were linked"},{"startTime":456.0,"endTime":459.213,"body":"to the Atlantic trade."},{"startTime":460.23,"endTime":464.703,"body":"They were monetized and militarized."},{"startTime":465.78,"endTime":469.08,"body":"They received currency from overseas"},{"startTime":469.08,"endTime":471.57,"body":"in a form of cowrie shells,"},{"startTime":471.57,"endTime":476.55,"body":"of copper ingots, or"},{"startTime":471.57,"endTime":476.55,"body":"iron ingots, and cloth,"},{"startTime":476.55,"endTime":479.46,"body":"these were all use as forms of currency,"},{"startTime":479.46,"endTime":481.23,"body":"but they were soft currency,"},{"startTime":481.23,"endTime":483.69,"body":"unlike the hard gold currency,"},{"startTime":483.69,"endTime":486.99,"body":"which they were exporting overseas."},{"startTime":486.99,"endTime":491.99,"body":"These soft currencies within"},{"startTime":486.99,"endTime":491.99,"body":"West Africa depreciated"},{"startTime":492.6,"endTime":496.17,"body":"against what was going"},{"startTime":492.6,"endTime":496.17,"body":"out, their hard gold,"},{"startTime":496.17,"endTime":498.6,"body":"And that creates strains,"},{"startTime":498.6,"endTime":499.95,"body":"and it also leads then"},{"startTime":499.95,"endTime":501.93,"body":"to both the development of commerce"},{"startTime":501.93,"endTime":504.93,"body":"and enslaved people being sent overseas"},{"startTime":504.93,"endTime":507.783,"body":"to compensate for that depreciation."},{"startTime":508.8,"endTime":511.1,"body":"So we need to understand the ways"},{"startTime":511.1,"endTime":512.64,"body":"in which these centralized states"},{"startTime":512.64,"endTime":516.39,"body":"were then building up powerful armies,"},{"startTime":516.39,"endTime":519.99,"body":"they were themselves building"},{"startTime":516.39,"endTime":519.99,"body":"up revenues from this trade,"},{"startTime":519.99,"endTime":521.82,"body":"they become more militarized,"},{"startTime":521.82,"endTime":524.31,"body":"and the warfare produces more captives,"},{"startTime":524.31,"endTime":527.853,"body":"which go into the Atlantic slave trade."},{"startTime":530.4,"endTime":533.28,"body":"They secure arms, these"},{"startTime":530.4,"endTime":533.28,"body":"militarized states,"},{"startTime":533.28,"endTime":535.56,"body":"from the Europeans."},{"startTime":535.56,"endTime":539.76,"body":"It was estimated that by 1730,"},{"startTime":539.76,"endTime":542.91,"body":"about 180,000 guns a year"},{"startTime":542.91,"endTime":546.813,"body":"went into what were called"},{"startTime":542.91,"endTime":546.813,"body":"the gold and the slave coasts."},{"startTime":547.77,"endTime":550.62,"body":"The import of British goods,"},{"startTime":547.77,"endTime":550.62,"body":"the import of the guns,"},{"startTime":550.62,"endTime":551.94,"body":"the growth of the slave trade"},{"startTime":551.94,"endTime":555.27,"body":"becomes a circle, if you will,"},{"startTime":555.27,"endTime":558.96,"body":"contributing to the continued"},{"startTime":555.27,"endTime":558.96,"body":"militarization of Africa."},{"startTime":558.96,"endTime":560.73,"body":"More slaves meant more guns,"},{"startTime":560.73,"endTime":563.67,"body":"meant more war, meant more captives."},{"startTime":563.67,"endTime":565.71,"body":"It also meant, as I said earlier on,"},{"startTime":565.71,"endTime":569.313,"body":"that many enslaved people"},{"startTime":565.71,"endTime":569.313,"body":"had experience in warfare,"},{"startTime":571.05,"endTime":573.96,"body":"and this is a very important point"},{"startTime":573.96,"endTime":578.04,"body":"for the sense insecurity"},{"startTime":573.96,"endTime":578.04,"body":"of the white population"},{"startTime":578.04,"endTime":580.56,"body":"in places such as Jamaica,"},{"startTime":580.56,"endTime":583.56,"body":"where the white population was outnumbered"},{"startTime":583.56,"endTime":585.483,"body":"about nine to one."},{"startTime":586.74,"endTime":591.74,"body":"How, against a military-experienced"},{"startTime":586.74,"endTime":591.74,"body":"slave workforce,"},{"startTime":593.34,"endTime":596.46,"body":"which is about 90% of the population,"},{"startTime":596.46,"endTime":600.003,"body":"did the white population"},{"startTime":596.46,"endTime":600.003,"body":"maintain authority?"},{"startTime":601.23,"endTime":604.293,"body":"And they did that in three ways."},{"startTime":605.43,"endTime":610.29,"body":"The first is that Jamaica"},{"startTime":605.43,"endTime":610.29,"body":"was a garrison state,"},{"startTime":610.29,"endTime":612.06,"body":"a garrison colony,"},{"startTime":612.06,"endTime":616.68,"body":"with fortifications and"},{"startTime":612.06,"endTime":616.68,"body":"a major naval station."},{"startTime":616.68,"endTime":621.42,"body":"This provided both external"},{"startTime":616.68,"endTime":621.42,"body":"security against France"},{"startTime":621.42,"endTime":625.293,"body":"and internal security"},{"startTime":621.42,"endTime":625.293,"body":"against enslaved people."},{"startTime":626.67,"endTime":629.34,"body":"That military and naval presence"},{"startTime":629.34,"endTime":633.99,"body":"had to be paid for by the"},{"startTime":629.34,"endTime":633.99,"body":"British fiscal-military state,"},{"startTime":633.99,"endTime":636.6,"body":"that is, an efficient tax system"},{"startTime":636.6,"endTime":638.7,"body":"that serviced government debt,"},{"startTime":638.7,"endTime":639.72,"body":"and that government debt"},{"startTime":639.72,"endTime":643.893,"body":"paid for the navy and successful warfare."},{"startTime":645.51,"endTime":648.123,"body":"The second source of authority,"},{"startTime":649.59,"endTime":651.69,"body":"that's one of the the"},{"startTime":649.59,"endTime":651.69,"body":"warriors I was talking about,"},{"startTime":651.69,"endTime":654.54,"body":"were the Maroons."},{"startTime":654.54,"endTime":657.09,"body":"The Maroons were escaped slaves"},{"startTime":657.09,"endTime":659.853,"body":"who had gone into the interior of Jamaica,"},{"startTime":661.53,"endTime":663.45,"body":"into the mountains,"},{"startTime":663.45,"endTime":666.6,"body":"and initially, they posed a major threat"},{"startTime":666.6,"endTime":669.873,"body":"to the white settlers, white planters."},{"startTime":672.78,"endTime":673.65,"body":"There was a war,"},{"startTime":673.65,"endTime":678.09,"body":"which ended in 1739 with a treaty"},{"startTime":678.09,"endTime":681.57,"body":"that legitimized the rights,"},{"startTime":678.09,"endTime":681.57,"body":"or recognized the rights"},{"startTime":681.57,"endTime":683.79,"body":"of the free Blacks."},{"startTime":683.79,"endTime":687.037,"body":"In return, and I quote from the treaty,"},{"startTime":687.037,"endTime":689.137,"body":"\"They would use their best endeavors"},{"startTime":689.137,"endTime":694.137,"body":"\"to take, kill, suppress,"},{"startTime":689.137,"endTime":694.137,"body":"or destroy rebel slaves"},{"startTime":695.287,"endTime":699.33,"body":"\"and capture and return runaway slaves.\""},{"startTime":699.33,"endTime":704.01,"body":"That treaty opened up the"},{"startTime":699.33,"endTime":704.01,"body":"interior of Jamaica to settlement,"},{"startTime":704.01,"endTime":707.07,"body":"and this is the period, after 1739,"},{"startTime":707.07,"endTime":709.74,"body":"when the island, the white planters,"},{"startTime":709.74,"endTime":714.63,"body":"had the maximum influence on"},{"startTime":709.74,"endTime":714.63,"body":"imperial policy in London,"},{"startTime":714.63,"endTime":716.82,"body":"and the planters had the greatest autonomy"},{"startTime":716.82,"endTime":720.527,"body":"to do what they wished within Jamaica,"},{"startTime":720.527,"endTime":722.25,"body":"and this period runs up, really,"},{"startTime":722.25,"endTime":725.283,"body":"to the end of the Seven Years' War."},{"startTime":727.14,"endTime":732.14,"body":"But the third way in which the"},{"startTime":727.14,"endTime":732.14,"body":"white planters kept authority"},{"startTime":732.48,"endTime":734.91,"body":"was by brutality,"},{"startTime":734.91,"endTime":737.253,"body":"by a regime of terror."},{"startTime":738.33,"endTime":739.163,"body":"I apologize now"},{"startTime":739.163,"endTime":742.173,"body":"for some of the quotes"},{"startTime":739.163,"endTime":742.173,"body":"which are going to follow."},{"startTime":743.19,"endTime":746.43,"body":"The enslaved people, they said,"},{"startTime":746.43,"endTime":747.547,"body":"should be treated,"},{"startTime":747.547,"endTime":751.137,"body":"\"As a sort of beast, and without souls.\""},{"startTime":752.01,"endTime":753.787,"body":"They had, it was said,"},{"startTime":753.787,"endTime":756.967,"body":"\"As great a propensity to subjection"},{"startTime":756.967,"endTime":759.397,"body":"\"as we have to command."},{"startTime":759.397,"endTime":763.947,"body":"\"They love slavery as"},{"startTime":759.397,"endTime":763.947,"body":"naturally as we do liberty.\""},{"startTime":765.12,"endTime":769.623,"body":"These assumptions went with"},{"startTime":765.12,"endTime":769.623,"body":"a lack of legal constraint."},{"startTime":770.67,"endTime":774.57,"body":"The diaries of one planter,"},{"startTime":770.67,"endTime":774.57,"body":"Thomas Thistlewood,"},{"startTime":774.57,"endTime":776.67,"body":"provide a detailed record"},{"startTime":776.67,"endTime":781.44,"body":"of his sexual exploitation"},{"startTime":776.67,"endTime":781.44,"body":"and brutal treatment"},{"startTime":781.44,"endTime":782.61,"body":"of enslaved people,"},{"startTime":782.61,"endTime":784.56,"body":"which makes for very difficult reading."},{"startTime":785.67,"endTime":788.43,"body":"He whipped enslaved people brutally,"},{"startTime":788.43,"endTime":789.57,"body":"but not only that,"},{"startTime":789.57,"endTime":791.52,"body":"I quote from the Diary,"},{"startTime":791.52,"endTime":796.41,"body":"he, \"Rubbed in salt pickle,"},{"startTime":791.52,"endTime":796.41,"body":"lime juice, and pepper,\""},{"startTime":796.41,"endTime":798.93,"body":"he marked the bodies of enslaved people"},{"startTime":798.93,"endTime":802.143,"body":"by slitting noses, cutting off ears."},{"startTime":803.1,"endTime":806.617,"body":"He put one man in an iron cage, I quote,"},{"startTime":806.617,"endTime":809.317,"body":"\"Gagged him, rubbed him with molasses,"},{"startTime":809.317,"endTime":812.647,"body":"\"and exposed him naked"},{"startTime":809.317,"endTime":812.647,"body":"to the flies all day"},{"startTime":812.647,"endTime":815.157,"body":"\"and the mosquitoes all night.\""},{"startTime":816.0,"endTime":820.38,"body":"He demeaned and dehumanized"},{"startTime":816.0,"endTime":820.38,"body":"the enslaved people."},{"startTime":820.38,"endTime":824.167,"body":"Thistlewood recorded"},{"startTime":820.38,"endTime":824.167,"body":"of one slave, I quote,"},{"startTime":824.167,"endTime":829.167,"body":"\"I gave him a moderate"},{"startTime":824.167,"endTime":829.167,"body":"whipping, pickled him well,"},{"startTime":829.507,"endTime":832.387,"body":"\"made Hector shit in his mouth,"},{"startTime":832.387,"endTime":836.107,"body":"\"immediately put in a gag"},{"startTime":832.387,"endTime":836.107,"body":"whilst his mouth was full,"},{"startTime":836.107,"endTime":839.547,"body":"\"and made him wear it four or five hours.\""},{"startTime":840.6,"endTime":844.5,"body":"It was a regime of"},{"startTime":840.6,"endTime":844.5,"body":"dehumanization and trauma,"},{"startTime":844.5,"endTime":846.39,"body":"which had consequences"},{"startTime":846.39,"endTime":851.013,"body":"for British views of the"},{"startTime":846.39,"endTime":851.013,"body":"planters in the Caribbean."},{"startTime":853.92,"endTime":857.58,"body":"As well as depending on a continued inflow"},{"startTime":857.58,"endTime":859.68,"body":"of enslaved people"},{"startTime":859.68,"endTime":861.84,"body":"and a regime of brutality,"},{"startTime":861.84,"endTime":866.28,"body":"the island also suffered"},{"startTime":861.84,"endTime":866.28,"body":"from food insecurity"},{"startTime":866.28,"endTime":867.633,"body":"and the risk of famine."},{"startTime":869.28,"endTime":872.43,"body":"Slaves produced high value export crops,"},{"startTime":872.43,"endTime":874.923,"body":"and planters grew little food."},{"startTime":876.06,"endTime":877.08,"body":"The West Indies, therefore,"},{"startTime":877.08,"endTime":880.203,"body":"relied on imports from North America."},{"startTime":881.52,"endTime":882.84,"body":"Bryan Edwards,"},{"startTime":882.84,"endTime":886.17,"body":"a leading commentator"},{"startTime":882.84,"endTime":886.17,"body":"on Jamaica in the 1790s,"},{"startTime":886.17,"endTime":889.327,"body":"remarked, \"It is true"},{"startTime":886.17,"endTime":889.327,"body":"economy in the planter"},{"startTime":889.327,"endTime":891.937,"body":"\"to buy provisions from others."},{"startTime":891.937,"endTime":896.937,"body":"\"The product of a single"},{"startTime":891.937,"endTime":896.937,"body":"acre of his cane fields"},{"startTime":898.477,"endTime":900.277,"body":"\"will purchase more maize"},{"startTime":900.277,"endTime":903.847,"body":"\"than can be raised in five"},{"startTime":900.277,"endTime":903.847,"body":"times that extent of land,"},{"startTime":903.847,"endTime":905.757,"body":"\"and besides pay the freight.\""},{"startTime":906.84,"endTime":910.62,"body":"This trade was important"},{"startTime":906.84,"endTime":910.62,"body":"to the Middle Colonies"},{"startTime":910.62,"endTime":911.853,"body":"and to New England."},{"startTime":912.78,"endTime":914.88,"body":"Their export to the West Indies"},{"startTime":914.88,"endTime":918.363,"body":"allowed a trade deficit"},{"startTime":914.88,"endTime":918.363,"body":"between them and Britain."},{"startTime":919.83,"endTime":923.34,"body":"John Adams, the future"},{"startTime":919.83,"endTime":923.34,"body":"United States president,"},{"startTime":923.34,"endTime":925.027,"body":"saw, and I quote,"},{"startTime":925.027,"endTime":927.277,"body":"\"The commerce of the West Indies"},{"startTime":927.277,"endTime":930.757,"body":"\"is a part of the American"},{"startTime":927.277,"endTime":930.757,"body":"system of commerce."},{"startTime":930.757,"endTime":934.747,"body":"\"They can neither do without"},{"startTime":930.757,"endTime":934.747,"body":"us, nor we without them."},{"startTime":934.747,"endTime":937.897,"body":"\"The Creator has placed us upon the globe"},{"startTime":937.897,"endTime":939.607,"body":"\"in such a situation"},{"startTime":939.607,"endTime":942.87,"body":"\"that we have occasion for each other.\""},{"startTime":942.87,"endTime":945.81,"body":"That mutual alliance"},{"startTime":942.87,"endTime":945.81,"body":"could also, of course,"},{"startTime":945.81,"endTime":950.73,"body":"lead to precarity in the food"},{"startTime":945.81,"endTime":950.73,"body":"supply to the West Indies,"},{"startTime":950.73,"endTime":951.633,"body":"and to famine."},{"startTime":954.57,"endTime":956.19,"body":"Well, this is the context"},{"startTime":956.19,"endTime":960.573,"body":"for Tacky's Revolt of April, 1760."},{"startTime":961.89,"endTime":966.39,"body":"Tacky had probably been"},{"startTime":961.89,"endTime":966.39,"body":"a royal official or chief"},{"startTime":966.39,"endTime":967.443,"body":"in West Africa."},{"startTime":968.7,"endTime":972.06,"body":"Although men of high status"},{"startTime":968.7,"endTime":972.06,"body":"who were captured in warfare"},{"startTime":972.06,"endTime":975.63,"body":"could sometimes be ransomed"},{"startTime":972.06,"endTime":975.63,"body":"by their their fellows,"},{"startTime":975.63,"endTime":977.31,"body":"the price could be too high"},{"startTime":977.31,"endTime":980.34,"body":"or the occasion was just not suitable,"},{"startTime":980.34,"endTime":983.88,"body":"so these high officials,"},{"startTime":980.34,"endTime":983.88,"body":"experienced warriors,"},{"startTime":983.88,"endTime":987.243,"body":"could be enslaved alongside"},{"startTime":983.88,"endTime":987.243,"body":"ordinary soldiers."},{"startTime":988.29,"endTime":989.55,"body":"Well, after his revolt,"},{"startTime":989.55,"endTime":992.34,"body":"Tacky was shot and killed,"},{"startTime":992.34,"endTime":996.03,"body":"and the remaining holdouts"},{"startTime":992.34,"endTime":996.03,"body":"negotiated with John Gordon,"},{"startTime":996.03,"endTime":1000.35,"body":"as on that memorial in"},{"startTime":996.03,"endTime":1000.35,"body":"Dorchester Parish Church."},{"startTime":1000.35,"endTime":1002.15,"body":"They surrendered to Gordon,"},{"startTime":1002.15,"endTime":1005.27,"body":"the memorial referred to his humanity,"},{"startTime":1005.27,"endTime":1009.71,"body":"on condition that they"},{"startTime":1005.27,"endTime":1009.71,"body":"would be sent out of Jamaica"},{"startTime":1009.71,"endTime":1012.26,"body":"rather than put to death."},{"startTime":1012.26,"endTime":1013.91,"body":"Well, others were less lucky,"},{"startTime":1013.91,"endTime":1015.23,"body":"they were put to death,"},{"startTime":1015.23,"endTime":1017.87,"body":"they were made a public example,"},{"startTime":1017.87,"endTime":1021.44,"body":"for example by being"},{"startTime":1017.87,"endTime":1021.44,"body":"suspended in iron cages"},{"startTime":1021.44,"endTime":1024.8,"body":"and left to dehydrate and starve."},{"startTime":1024.8,"endTime":1027.98,"body":"One man survived for nine days,"},{"startTime":1027.98,"endTime":1031.19,"body":"which is viewed not as"},{"startTime":1027.98,"endTime":1031.19,"body":"a sign of the brutality"},{"startTime":1031.19,"endTime":1033.14,"body":"of those who did it to him,"},{"startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1037.22,"body":"but rather of the unfeeling"},{"startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1037.22,"body":"nature of Black bodies,"},{"startTime":1037.22,"endTime":1040.703,"body":"of what was called their"},{"startTime":1037.22,"endTime":1040.703,"body":"brutal insensibility."},{"startTime":1042.86,"endTime":1046.19,"body":"The defeat of Tacky was"},{"startTime":1042.86,"endTime":1046.19,"body":"not the end of the matter,"},{"startTime":1046.19,"endTime":1050.66,"body":"a larger rising followed"},{"startTime":1046.19,"endTime":1050.66,"body":"in May, the Coromantee War,"},{"startTime":1050.66,"endTime":1054.803,"body":"which was led by an"},{"startTime":1050.66,"endTime":1054.803,"body":"enslaved man known as Wager."},{"startTime":1055.94,"endTime":1057.74,"body":"As far as we can tell,"},{"startTime":1057.74,"endTime":1061.61,"body":"this man had been a leading"},{"startTime":1057.74,"endTime":1061.61,"body":"official or warrior,"},{"startTime":1061.61,"endTime":1064.223,"body":"possibly Asante, in West Africa."},{"startTime":1065.75,"endTime":1068.45,"body":"At some point in the 1740s,"},{"startTime":1068.45,"endTime":1071.21,"body":"Apongo, to give him his African name,"},{"startTime":1071.21,"endTime":1075.263,"body":"was captured and sold to Arthur Forrest,"},{"startTime":1076.31,"endTime":1079.37,"body":"a naval officer who was also a planter,"},{"startTime":1079.37,"endTime":1082.973,"body":"owning around 3,000 acres in Jamaica."},{"startTime":1084.14,"endTime":1089.14,"body":"Apongo served on Forrest's"},{"startTime":1084.14,"endTime":1089.14,"body":"ship, HMS Wager, for a year,"},{"startTime":1089.96,"endTime":1091.073,"body":"hence his name."},{"startTime":1092.39,"endTime":1094.73,"body":"Before the ship returned to England,"},{"startTime":1094.73,"endTime":1098.24,"body":"Wager, or Apongo, was discharged,"},{"startTime":1098.24,"endTime":1100.16,"body":"and became, like Tacky,"},{"startTime":1100.16,"endTime":1104.903,"body":"a driver in charge of discipline"},{"startTime":1100.16,"endTime":1104.903,"body":"on Forrest's plantation."},{"startTime":1106.34,"endTime":1111.34,"body":"Forrest returned to"},{"startTime":1106.34,"endTime":1111.34,"body":"Jamaica on naval duties,"},{"startTime":1111.89,"endTime":1116.89,"body":"and fought a French squadron"},{"startTime":1111.89,"endTime":1116.89,"body":"in this battle in 1757."},{"startTime":1119.66,"endTime":1121.58,"body":"He secured a fortune"},{"startTime":1121.58,"endTime":1123.98,"body":"and a landed estate in Berkshire"},{"startTime":1123.98,"endTime":1126.05,"body":"from his naval victories,"},{"startTime":1126.05,"endTime":1128.33,"body":"from seizure of French cargoes,"},{"startTime":1128.33,"endTime":1131.78,"body":"and of course from the slave plantations."},{"startTime":1131.78,"endTime":1134.99,"body":"The lives of Apongo and Forrest"},{"startTime":1134.99,"endTime":1137.75,"body":"were connected through"},{"startTime":1134.99,"endTime":1137.75,"body":"the global conflicts"},{"startTime":1137.75,"endTime":1139.343,"body":"of the Seven Years' War."},{"startTime":1141.53,"endTime":1144.77,"body":"The rising of the Coromantee War"},{"startTime":1144.77,"endTime":1147.11,"body":"started on Forrest's plantation"},{"startTime":1147.11,"endTime":1149.54,"body":"in Westmoreland Parish,"},{"startTime":1149.54,"endTime":1153.14,"body":"a densely settled area"},{"startTime":1149.54,"endTime":1153.14,"body":"of major plantations,"},{"startTime":1153.14,"endTime":1158.14,"body":"including those of William"},{"startTime":1153.14,"endTime":1158.14,"body":"Beckford, Lord Mayor of London,"},{"startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1163.31,"body":"who defended the rights"},{"startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1163.31,"body":"of the City of London"},{"startTime":1163.31,"endTime":1164.93,"body":"and of English liberties"},{"startTime":1164.93,"endTime":1165.98,"body":"against the Crown."},{"startTime":1165.98,"endTime":1169.01,"body":"And here he is, his"},{"startTime":1165.98,"endTime":1169.01,"body":"statue, in the Guildhall"},{"startTime":1169.01,"endTime":1172.01,"body":"making his speech against George III"},{"startTime":1172.01,"endTime":1177.01,"body":"to protect the freedoms"},{"startTime":1172.01,"endTime":1177.01,"body":"of the City of London."},{"startTime":1177.38,"endTime":1179.84,"body":"The irony, of course,"},{"startTime":1177.38,"endTime":1179.84,"body":"of being a slave owner"},{"startTime":1179.84,"endTime":1181.55,"body":"was probably lost on him,"},{"startTime":1181.55,"endTime":1183.383,"body":"though not on on us."},{"startTime":1184.58,"endTime":1188.0,"body":"In all, there were around 15,000 slaves"},{"startTime":1188.0,"endTime":1189.53,"body":"in Westmoreland Parish,"},{"startTime":1189.53,"endTime":1191.48,"body":"on 60 plantations,"},{"startTime":1191.48,"endTime":1193.97,"body":"it was one of the most profitable areas"},{"startTime":1193.97,"endTime":1195.383,"body":"of the British Empire."},{"startTime":1196.64,"endTime":1200.03,"body":"The rising there was very"},{"startTime":1196.64,"endTime":1200.03,"body":"difficult to suppress."},{"startTime":1200.03,"endTime":1203.36,"body":"It was put down by the local militia,"},{"startTime":1203.36,"endTime":1205.61,"body":"by sailors from the fleet,"},{"startTime":1205.61,"endTime":1207.74,"body":"soldiers from the British Army,"},{"startTime":1207.74,"endTime":1210.83,"body":"the Maroons, who I"},{"startTime":1207.74,"endTime":1210.83,"body":"talked about earlier on,"},{"startTime":1210.83,"endTime":1212.66,"body":"who pursued the rebels"},{"startTime":1212.66,"endTime":1216.203,"body":"using scorched earth"},{"startTime":1212.66,"endTime":1216.203,"body":"tactics and public terror."},{"startTime":1217.13,"endTime":1219.08,"body":"Apongo was captured,"},{"startTime":1219.08,"endTime":1222.35,"body":"sentenced to be hung in"},{"startTime":1219.08,"endTime":1222.35,"body":"chains for three days,"},{"startTime":1222.35,"endTime":1225.233,"body":"taken down and burned alive."},{"startTime":1229.04,"endTime":1231.5,"body":"The success of the slave owners"},{"startTime":1231.5,"endTime":1234.59,"body":"in putting down such uprisings"},{"startTime":1234.59,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"showed that they could survive,"},{"startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1241.49,"body":"it showed them that they did"},{"startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1241.49,"body":"not need to fear the slaves,"},{"startTime":1241.49,"endTime":1243.35,"body":"they could terrorize them."},{"startTime":1243.35,"endTime":1246.08,"body":"Rather than suffering,"},{"startTime":1246.08,"endTime":1249.8,"body":"paralyzed from fear of"},{"startTime":1246.08,"endTime":1249.8,"body":"their precarious position,"},{"startTime":1249.8,"endTime":1253.01,"body":"the defeat of these uprisings in 1760"},{"startTime":1253.01,"endTime":1254.51,"body":"emboldened them"},{"startTime":1254.51,"endTime":1259.51,"body":"to use immediate and unrelenting"},{"startTime":1254.51,"endTime":1259.51,"body":"application of terror,"},{"startTime":1259.64,"endTime":1264.08,"body":"combined with coercive,"},{"startTime":1259.64,"endTime":1264.08,"body":"intrusive, and expensive"},{"startTime":1264.08,"endTime":1266.72,"body":"imperial and colonial interventions"},{"startTime":1266.72,"endTime":1269.06,"body":"by the navy and the army,"},{"startTime":1269.06,"endTime":1271.7,"body":"this resting upon high taxation,"},{"startTime":1271.7,"endTime":1275.12,"body":"which was above the level"},{"startTime":1271.7,"endTime":1275.12,"body":"that provoked rebellion"},{"startTime":1275.12,"endTime":1277.973,"body":"in the War of Independence"},{"startTime":1275.12,"endTime":1277.973,"body":"in North America."},{"startTime":1278.87,"endTime":1280.22,"body":"In North America,"},{"startTime":1280.22,"endTime":1282.71,"body":"the imperial state was raising taxes"},{"startTime":1282.71,"endTime":1285.95,"body":"to stop the settlers going"},{"startTime":1282.71,"endTime":1285.95,"body":"across the Appalachians"},{"startTime":1285.95,"endTime":1289.25,"body":"and leading to warfare"},{"startTime":1285.95,"endTime":1289.25,"body":"with Native Americans."},{"startTime":1289.25,"endTime":1290.57,"body":"In the West Indies,"},{"startTime":1290.57,"endTime":1292.88,"body":"the imperial state and high taxation"},{"startTime":1292.88,"endTime":1295.85,"body":"helped the planters"},{"startTime":1292.88,"endTime":1295.85,"body":"achieve their security,"},{"startTime":1295.85,"endTime":1299.69,"body":"above all in the victory of Admiral Rodney"},{"startTime":1299.69,"endTime":1301.49,"body":"over the French and Spanish fleets"},{"startTime":1301.49,"endTime":1305.483,"body":"in the Battle of the"},{"startTime":1301.49,"endTime":1305.483,"body":"Saintes in April, 1782."},{"startTime":1306.53,"endTime":1308.13,"body":"It was such successes"},{"startTime":1308.99,"endTime":1311.663,"body":"which allowed the sugar"},{"startTime":1308.99,"endTime":1311.663,"body":"colonies to prosper,"},{"startTime":1312.59,"endTime":1313.46,"body":"reaching their peak"},{"startTime":1313.46,"endTime":1317.24,"body":"from the Seven Year's War"},{"startTime":1313.46,"endTime":1317.24,"body":"to the American Revolution."},{"startTime":1317.24,"endTime":1318.62,"body":"Although they were hit"},{"startTime":1318.62,"endTime":1321.53,"body":"by the disruption of"},{"startTime":1318.62,"endTime":1321.53,"body":"the War of Independence,"},{"startTime":1321.53,"endTime":1323.3,"body":"high profits soon returned"},{"startTime":1323.3,"endTime":1324.817,"body":"from the 1780s"},{"startTime":1324.817,"endTime":1327.503,"body":"through to the abolition"},{"startTime":1324.817,"endTime":1327.503,"body":"of the slave trade in 1807."},{"startTime":1328.7,"endTime":1331.403,"body":"But whilst they flourished economically,"},{"startTime":1332.39,"endTime":1334.25,"body":"they were also starting to lose"},{"startTime":1334.25,"endTime":1337.61,"body":"political and cultural standing,"},{"startTime":1337.61,"endTime":1341.483,"body":"which declined from the peak"},{"startTime":1337.61,"endTime":1341.483,"body":"in the Seven Years' War."},{"startTime":1342.59,"endTime":1345.74,"body":"Opponents in the metropole, in London,"},{"startTime":1345.74,"endTime":1347.03,"body":"in the United Kingdom,"},{"startTime":1347.03,"endTime":1351.803,"body":"saw the planters' way of life"},{"startTime":1347.03,"endTime":1351.803,"body":"as degraded and debauched,"},{"startTime":1353.09,"endTime":1355.46,"body":"they were acting as cruel tyrants"},{"startTime":1355.46,"endTime":1357.653,"body":"who had become un-British."},{"startTime":1358.79,"endTime":1363.02,"body":"Samuel Johnson, on hearing"},{"startTime":1358.79,"endTime":1363.02,"body":"of the death of one planter,"},{"startTime":1363.02,"endTime":1365.9,"body":"raised a glass in a toast."},{"startTime":1365.9,"endTime":1366.733,"body":"He said,"},{"startTime":1366.733,"endTime":1370.22,"body":"\"He will will not,"},{"startTime":1366.733,"endTime":1370.22,"body":"whither he is now gone,\""},{"startTime":1370.22,"endTime":1371.127,"body":"that is, Hell,"},{"startTime":1371.127,"endTime":1373.437,"body":"\"find much difference, I believe,"},{"startTime":1373.437,"endTime":1376.367,"body":"\"either in the climate or the company.\""},{"startTime":1377.27,"endTime":1379.94,"body":"This feeling the planters"},{"startTime":1377.27,"endTime":1379.94,"body":"had turned Jamaica"},{"startTime":1379.94,"endTime":1381.59,"body":"into a hell on earth"},{"startTime":1381.59,"endTime":1385.373,"body":"was reflected in two"},{"startTime":1381.59,"endTime":1385.373,"body":"important court cases."},{"startTime":1387.17,"endTime":1391.283,"body":"The first was the Somerset case of 1772."},{"startTime":1392.24,"endTime":1394.37,"body":"The case here was whether a slave"},{"startTime":1394.37,"endTime":1397.85,"body":"could be returned to Jamaica from England."},{"startTime":1397.85,"endTime":1402.85,"body":"Lord Mansfield, the Chief"},{"startTime":1397.85,"endTime":1402.85,"body":"Justice of King's Bench,"},{"startTime":1403.13,"endTime":1406.16,"body":"argued, I quote his judgment,"},{"startTime":1406.16,"endTime":1408.537,"body":"that slavery, \"is so odious"},{"startTime":1408.537,"endTime":1410.967,"body":"\"that nothing can be"},{"startTime":1408.537,"endTime":1410.967,"body":"suffered to support it"},{"startTime":1410.967,"endTime":1412.607,"body":"\"but positive law,\""},{"startTime":1414.32,"endTime":1415.25,"body":"and since slavery"},{"startTime":1415.25,"endTime":1418.04,"body":"had not been positively"},{"startTime":1415.25,"endTime":1418.04,"body":"sanctioned in England"},{"startTime":1418.04,"endTime":1419.57,"body":"by statute or common law,"},{"startTime":1419.57,"endTime":1422.543,"body":"the slave could not be"},{"startTime":1419.57,"endTime":1422.543,"body":"returned to Jamaica."},{"startTime":1423.71,"endTime":1424.543,"body":"This decision"},{"startTime":1424.543,"endTime":1428.48,"body":"marked a distancing from"},{"startTime":1424.543,"endTime":1428.48,"body":"the West Indies' interest:"},{"startTime":1428.48,"endTime":1432.41,"body":"slavery was an un-English,"},{"startTime":1428.48,"endTime":1432.41,"body":"tyrannical innovation"},{"startTime":1432.41,"endTime":1435.98,"body":"that had been invented in the West Indies."},{"startTime":1435.98,"endTime":1440.98,"body":"And that case was supported"},{"startTime":1435.98,"endTime":1440.98,"body":"in the case of the Zong,"},{"startTime":1441.62,"endTime":1443.3,"body":"the ship the Zong,"},{"startTime":1443.3,"endTime":1445.04,"body":"where, in 1781,"},{"startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1449.21,"body":"the crew threw the cargo"},{"startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1449.21,"body":"of Africans overboard"},{"startTime":1449.21,"endTime":1451.133,"body":"to claim insurance money."},{"startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1455.933,"body":"Mass murder was treated"},{"startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1455.933,"body":"as an insurance case."},{"startTime":1457.49,"endTime":1459.32,"body":"The action of the crew,"},{"startTime":1459.32,"endTime":1462.32,"body":"and the reasoning about"},{"startTime":1459.32,"endTime":1462.32,"body":"whether or not it was justified"},{"startTime":1462.32,"endTime":1467.32,"body":"to throw enslaved people"},{"startTime":1462.32,"endTime":1467.32,"body":"overboard as if they were cargo,"},{"startTime":1468.47,"endTime":1472.97,"body":"exposed the immorality of"},{"startTime":1468.47,"endTime":1472.97,"body":"the whole sordid enterprise,"},{"startTime":1472.97,"endTime":1476.51,"body":"which continued to be used"},{"startTime":1472.97,"endTime":1476.51,"body":"in abolitionist debate,"},{"startTime":1476.51,"endTime":1481.51,"body":"as in this later painting by"},{"startTime":1476.51,"endTime":1481.51,"body":"John Mallord Turner of 1840."},{"startTime":1484.88,"endTime":1488.243,"body":"So, sentiments in the"},{"startTime":1484.88,"endTime":1488.243,"body":"metropole were changing,"},{"startTime":1490.82,"endTime":1494.09,"body":"and the imperial state"},{"startTime":1490.82,"endTime":1494.09,"body":"also wanted more control"},{"startTime":1494.09,"endTime":1497.6,"body":"over what was going on in the colonies."},{"startTime":1497.6,"endTime":1499.76,"body":"Although they were"},{"startTime":1497.6,"endTime":1499.76,"body":"economically prosperous,"},{"startTime":1499.76,"endTime":1502.16,"body":"they were losing their"},{"startTime":1499.76,"endTime":1502.16,"body":"influence in London,"},{"startTime":1502.16,"endTime":1504.83,"body":"they were losing unreserved support."},{"startTime":1504.83,"endTime":1507.8,"body":"The costs of defending"},{"startTime":1504.83,"endTime":1507.8,"body":"the colonies were rising"},{"startTime":1507.8,"endTime":1510.11,"body":"with the war against revolutionary France"},{"startTime":1510.11,"endTime":1512.03,"body":"and the Napoleonic Empire,"},{"startTime":1512.03,"endTime":1516.56,"body":"and with the Second Maroon War of 1795,"},{"startTime":1516.56,"endTime":1518.42,"body":"when the colonial authorities"},{"startTime":1518.42,"endTime":1521.42,"body":"were breaching the"},{"startTime":1518.42,"endTime":1521.42,"body":"treaty with the Maroons,"},{"startTime":1521.42,"endTime":1523.76,"body":"they rose up, were defeated,"},{"startTime":1523.76,"endTime":1526.4,"body":"were sent to Nova Scotia,"},{"startTime":1526.4,"endTime":1530.843,"body":"from where they moved on to Sierra Leone."},{"startTime":1531.68,"endTime":1533.99,"body":"So a change taking place here,"},{"startTime":1533.99,"endTime":1537.98,"body":"the West Indies losing"},{"startTime":1533.99,"endTime":1537.98,"body":"culturally and politically."},{"startTime":1537.98,"endTime":1539.72,"body":"Remaining profitable,"},{"startTime":1539.72,"endTime":1541.94,"body":"especially with the removal of competition"},{"startTime":1541.94,"endTime":1546.05,"body":"from the prosperous French"},{"startTime":1541.94,"endTime":1546.05,"body":"colony of Saint Dominique,"},{"startTime":1546.05,"endTime":1548.693,"body":"with the war there in 1794."},{"startTime":1549.86,"endTime":1553.4,"body":"Pressure from legislation"},{"startTime":1549.86,"endTime":1553.4,"body":"in the British Parliament"},{"startTime":1553.4,"endTime":1554.48,"body":"and self-interest"},{"startTime":1554.48,"endTime":1557.09,"body":"did lead the slave planters"},{"startTime":1557.09,"endTime":1559.64,"body":"to adopt a more prudent policy"},{"startTime":1559.64,"endTime":1561.86,"body":"of what they called amelioration,"},{"startTime":1561.86,"endTime":1564.47,"body":"trying to treat the slaves a bit better,"},{"startTime":1564.47,"endTime":1566.57,"body":"knowing that when the slave trade ended,"},{"startTime":1566.57,"endTime":1570.35,"body":"they could not rely upon"},{"startTime":1566.57,"endTime":1570.35,"body":"bringing new men and women"},{"startTime":1570.35,"endTime":1571.973,"body":"over the Atlantic."},{"startTime":1573.8,"endTime":1576.86,"body":"The idea there was that"},{"startTime":1573.8,"endTime":1576.86,"body":"amelioration, though,"},{"startTime":1576.86,"endTime":1580.58,"body":"could also delay the"},{"startTime":1576.86,"endTime":1580.58,"body":"abolition of slavery itself,"},{"startTime":1580.58,"endTime":1582.83,"body":"because if you ameliorate"},{"startTime":1580.58,"endTime":1582.83,"body":"their conditions,"},{"startTime":1582.83,"endTime":1585.173,"body":"perhaps there was less need to free them."},{"startTime":1586.04,"endTime":1589.97,"body":"So the argument continued to rumble on,"},{"startTime":1589.97,"endTime":1590.803,"body":"not rumble on,"},{"startTime":1590.803,"endTime":1593.24,"body":"it carried on in a very, very bitter way"},{"startTime":1593.24,"endTime":1596.39,"body":"until slavery was eventually abolished"},{"startTime":1596.39,"endTime":1599.933,"body":"in act of Parliament in 1833."},{"startTime":1601.04,"endTime":1602.21,"body":"So what have we learned"},{"startTime":1602.21,"endTime":1606.95,"body":"from trying to explain the"},{"startTime":1602.21,"endTime":1606.95,"body":"memorial to John Gordon?"},{"startTime":1606.95,"endTime":1609.0,"body":"I think we've learned a number of things."},{"startTime":1611.09,"endTime":1612.65,"body":"One is,"},{"startTime":1612.65,"endTime":1613.88,"body":"the colonies, the West Indies"},{"startTime":1613.88,"endTime":1617.063,"body":"depended upon a constant"},{"startTime":1613.88,"endTime":1617.063,"body":"stream of enslaved people,"},{"startTime":1618.17,"endTime":1620.96,"body":"that's linked with what was"},{"startTime":1618.17,"endTime":1620.96,"body":"happening in West Africa"},{"startTime":1620.96,"endTime":1624.2,"body":"with centralized, militarized states"},{"startTime":1624.2,"endTime":1626.75,"body":"which were dependent upon trade and money."},{"startTime":1626.75,"endTime":1629.18,"body":"They relied on a trade in food,"},{"startTime":1629.18,"endTime":1633.5,"body":"linking it into the 13"},{"startTime":1629.18,"endTime":1633.5,"body":"colonies of North America,"},{"startTime":1633.5,"endTime":1637.64,"body":"which allowed them to"},{"startTime":1633.5,"endTime":1637.64,"body":"import goods from Britain."},{"startTime":1637.64,"endTime":1640.1,"body":"The produce of the coerced labor,"},{"startTime":1640.1,"endTime":1641.99,"body":"sugar, tobacco, and so on,"},{"startTime":1641.99,"endTime":1644.87,"body":"was exported a Britain for consumption"},{"startTime":1644.87,"endTime":1646.55,"body":"and re-export to Europe,"},{"startTime":1646.55,"endTime":1649.608,"body":"which increased the trade with Britain."},{"startTime":1649.608,"endTime":1652.28,"body":"There was a major role of the Royal Navy,"},{"startTime":1652.28,"endTime":1656.06,"body":"which was supported by"},{"startTime":1652.28,"endTime":1656.06,"body":"a successful tax regime."},{"startTime":1656.06,"endTime":1657.86,"body":"That men like Forrest and Beckford"},{"startTime":1657.86,"endTime":1660.05,"body":"accumulated major fortunes,"},{"startTime":1660.05,"endTime":1662.18,"body":"which they spent on landed estates"},{"startTime":1662.18,"endTime":1664.133,"body":"and conspicuous consumption."},{"startTime":1665.36,"endTime":1667.4,"body":"Now, what I want to turn to now"},{"startTime":1667.4,"endTime":1671.66,"body":"is whether or not what I've just outlined"},{"startTime":1671.66,"endTime":1674.003,"body":"explains the British"},{"startTime":1671.66,"endTime":1674.003,"body":"Industrial Revolution,"},{"startTime":1675.11,"endTime":1677.21,"body":"because this is what is often argued,"},{"startTime":1677.21,"endTime":1678.56,"body":"that it was this world,"},{"startTime":1678.56,"endTime":1682.67,"body":"this brutal world of slavery"},{"startTime":1678.56,"endTime":1682.67,"body":"in the Atlantic economy,"},{"startTime":1682.67,"endTime":1683.6,"body":"which led Britain"},{"startTime":1683.6,"endTime":1687.143,"body":"to become the world's"},{"startTime":1683.6,"endTime":1687.143,"body":"first industrial nation."},{"startTime":1689.45,"endTime":1691.463,"body":"Now, the argument here,"},{"startTime":1693.08,"endTime":1695.27,"body":"that it was important,"},{"startTime":1695.27,"endTime":1699.203,"body":"is actually the argument made"},{"startTime":1695.27,"endTime":1699.203,"body":"by the supporters of slavery."},{"startTime":1700.67,"endTime":1703.28,"body":"The West Indian interests,"},{"startTime":1700.67,"endTime":1703.28,"body":"the slave owners"},{"startTime":1703.28,"endTime":1706.22,"body":"argued against the abolitionists"},{"startTime":1706.22,"endTime":1711.22,"body":"that their enterprise, their plantations"},{"startTime":1712.37,"endTime":1714.863,"body":"were vital to British prosperity."},{"startTime":1716.57,"endTime":1720.537,"body":"As one supporter of slavery asked in 1833,"},{"startTime":1720.537,"endTime":1722.907,"body":"\"What is your Bristol, your Liverpool,"},{"startTime":1722.907,"endTime":1725.127,"body":"\"your Manchester, your Glasgow"},{"startTime":1725.127,"endTime":1728.81,"body":"\"if you take from them"},{"startTime":1725.127,"endTime":1728.81,"body":"the West Indian colonies?\""},{"startTime":1728.81,"endTime":1729.86,"body":"The answer, he said,"},{"startTime":1729.86,"endTime":1731.967,"body":"was, \"Nothing, worse than nothing,"},{"startTime":1731.967,"endTime":1735.977,"body":"\"one universal scene of"},{"startTime":1731.967,"endTime":1735.977,"body":"beggary and starvation.\""},{"startTime":1737.21,"endTime":1738.56,"body":"It was the abolitionists"},{"startTime":1738.56,"endTime":1741.41,"body":"who argued that slavery was not essential"},{"startTime":1741.41,"endTime":1743.033,"body":"for economic prosperity."},{"startTime":1743.99,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"In fact, it was a drain,"},{"startTime":1745.52,"endTime":1748.01,"body":"it was less efficient than free labor,"},{"startTime":1748.01,"endTime":1750.59,"body":"the consumers at home were paying more"},{"startTime":1750.59,"endTime":1753.56,"body":"for slave-produced West Indian sugar,"},{"startTime":1753.56,"endTime":1757.16,"body":"protected by import duties"},{"startTime":1753.56,"endTime":1757.16,"body":"against non-empire sugar,"},{"startTime":1757.16,"endTime":1761.09,"body":"that the metropole was being"},{"startTime":1757.16,"endTime":1761.09,"body":"taxed to pay for defense,"},{"startTime":1761.09,"endTime":1763.76,"body":"as I was showing you with Admiral Rodney."},{"startTime":1763.76,"endTime":1765.44,"body":"Britain would therefore, they argued,"},{"startTime":1765.44,"endTime":1768.77,"body":"be better off without slavery."},{"startTime":1768.77,"endTime":1771.17,"body":"So that was the argument at the time,"},{"startTime":1771.17,"endTime":1774.56,"body":"but now, politics have shifted,"},{"startTime":1774.56,"endTime":1777.08,"body":"and it's the critics"},{"startTime":1774.56,"endTime":1777.08,"body":"of British imperialism"},{"startTime":1777.08,"endTime":1779.81,"body":"who stress that slavery was central"},{"startTime":1779.81,"endTime":1781.85,"body":"to British economic development,"},{"startTime":1781.85,"endTime":1784.19,"body":"a claim that is uncomfortably close"},{"startTime":1784.19,"endTime":1787.463,"body":"to that made by the defenders of slavery,"},{"startTime":1788.642,"endTime":1789.62,"body":"and it's those debates"},{"startTime":1789.62,"endTime":1793.133,"body":"which I now want to try"},{"startTime":1789.62,"endTime":1793.133,"body":"and probe a little bit."},{"startTime":1796.19,"endTime":1798.71,"body":"Of course, we should consider slavery"},{"startTime":1798.71,"endTime":1800.09,"body":"and the Atlantic economy,"},{"startTime":1800.09,"endTime":1801.83,"body":"of which it was an integral part,"},{"startTime":1801.83,"endTime":1805.37,"body":"in any history of Britain's"},{"startTime":1801.83,"endTime":1805.37,"body":"economic development."},{"startTime":1805.37,"endTime":1808.37,"body":"Some commentators say"},{"startTime":1805.37,"endTime":1808.37,"body":"that even talking about it"},{"startTime":1808.37,"endTime":1812.9,"body":"is to traduce British"},{"startTime":1808.37,"endTime":1812.9,"body":"history and shared identity."},{"startTime":1812.9,"endTime":1814.638,"body":"That, of course, is untrue."},{"startTime":1814.638,"endTime":1816.74,"body":"It was contested at the time,"},{"startTime":1816.74,"endTime":1818.03,"body":"it remains contested,"},{"startTime":1818.03,"endTime":1819.323,"body":"it is important,"},{"startTime":1820.19,"endTime":1824.723,"body":"but was it really the major"},{"startTime":1820.19,"endTime":1824.723,"body":"cause of industrialization?"},{"startTime":1826.22,"endTime":1831.22,"body":"The argument that is often put forward"},{"startTime":1831.23,"endTime":1832.943,"body":"is that of Eric Williams,"},{"startTime":1834.29,"endTime":1838.49,"body":"who wrote a book called"},{"startTime":1834.29,"endTime":1838.49,"body":"\"Capitalism and Slavery\" in 1944,"},{"startTime":1842.87,"endTime":1845.03,"body":"and here are some key quotes."},{"startTime":1845.03,"endTime":1848.187,"body":"He was careful, he said,"},{"startTime":1848.187,"endTime":1850.257,"body":"\"It was one of the main streams"},{"startTime":1850.257,"endTime":1852.083,"body":"\"of the accumulation capital."},{"startTime":1853.587,"endTime":1857.303,"body":"\"The profits provide"},{"startTime":1853.587,"endTime":1857.303,"body":"part of the huge outlay."},{"startTime":1858.507,"endTime":1859.617,"body":"\"It must not be inferred"},{"startTime":1859.617,"endTime":1861.32,"body":"\"that the triangular trade,\""},{"startTime":1861.32,"endTime":1864.387,"body":"between Britain, Africa,"},{"startTime":1861.32,"endTime":1864.387,"body":"and the Caribbean, and back,"},{"startTime":1864.387,"endTime":1867.53,"body":"\"was solely responsible.\""},{"startTime":1867.53,"endTime":1869.007,"body":"But then he also says,"},{"startTime":1869.007,"endTime":1871.887,"body":"\"It was only the capital"},{"startTime":1869.007,"endTime":1871.887,"body":"accumulation of Liverpool"},{"startTime":1871.887,"endTime":1875.237,"body":"\"which called the population"},{"startTime":1871.887,"endTime":1875.237,"body":"of Lancaster into existence.\""},{"startTime":1876.5,"endTime":1879.533,"body":"So which did he mean?"},{"startTime":1880.378,"endTime":1881.42,"body":"(Martin coughs)"},{"startTime":1881.42,"endTime":1884.453,"body":"Apologies, I have something"},{"startTime":1881.42,"endTime":1884.453,"body":"in my throat today."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1887.63,"endTime":1890.66,"body":"how large a part was it?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1890.66,"endTime":1893.363,"body":"If it was only one stream,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1890.66,"endTime":1893.363,"body":"how large a stream?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1895.19,"endTime":1898.25,"body":"The book provides a lot of evidence"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1898.25,"endTime":1900.47,"body":"of people making money from slavery,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1900.47,"endTime":1903.35,"body":"engaged in different trade."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1903.35,"endTime":1906.02,"body":"Thomas Heywood, a merchant in Liverpool,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1906.02,"endTime":1907.25,"body":"became a banker"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1907.25,"endTime":1910.64,"body":"who worked in the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1907.25,"endTime":1910.64,"body":"Lancashire textile district,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1910.64,"endTime":1912.26,"body":"Anthony Bacon"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1912.26,"endTime":1915.66,"body":"was engaged in the trade to"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1912.26,"endTime":1915.66,"body":"the West Indies with iron"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1916.67,"endTime":1918.83,"body":"and set up ironworks in South Wales,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1918.83,"endTime":1922.79,"body":"Lord Penrhyn developed the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1918.83,"endTime":1922.79,"body":"slate industry of North Wales,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1922.79,"endTime":1924.77,"body":"owned a slave plantation in Jamaica,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1924.77,"endTime":1926.6,"body":"you can see these links,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1926.6,"endTime":1928.76,"body":"so it was certainly part,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1928.76,"endTime":1930.773,"body":"but how important a part?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1931.82,"endTime":1936.02,"body":"When I was a student,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1931.82,"endTime":1936.02,"body":"back in the late 1960s,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1936.02,"endTime":1939.59,"body":"this was not seen as a major part at all,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1939.59,"endTime":1941.39,"body":"but now it's returned"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1944.36,"body":"as being perhaps the major part"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1944.36,"endTime":1946.97,"body":"of British industrialization,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1946.97,"endTime":1950.427,"body":"above all in the book by Joseph Inikori,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1950.427,"endTime":1953.78,"body":"\"Africans and the Industrial Revolution,\""},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1958.19,"body":"in which he tries to provide"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1958.19,"body":"quantitative measures"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.01,"body":"of how important the West Indies,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1961.01,"endTime":1964.34,"body":"but also North American"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1961.01,"endTime":1964.34,"body":"colonies and Brazil,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1964.34,"endTime":1966.5,"body":"enslaved Africans were"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1966.5,"endTime":1968.993,"body":"to the development of the British economy."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1970.19,"endTime":1971.93,"body":"So he presents a powerful case,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1971.93,"endTime":1974.363,"body":"let me just outline it very quickly."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1976.76,"endTime":1980.3,"body":"Successful industrialization"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1976.76,"endTime":1980.3,"body":"required exports,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1980.3,"endTime":1981.2,"body":"Britain, he said,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1981.2,"endTime":1984.29,"body":"went for import substitution"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1981.2,"endTime":1984.29,"body":"industrialization,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1984.29,"endTime":1987.05,"body":"it replaced imports of Asian textiles,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1987.05,"endTime":1989.48,"body":"which I talked about in my last lecture,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1989.48,"endTime":1992.54,"body":"it then exports overseas"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1992.54,"endTime":1994.61,"body":"with aggressive export promotion,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1994.61,"endTime":1996.36,"body":"that's within the Atlantic economy."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1997.61,"endTime":1999.26,"body":"The growth of international trade"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":1999.26,"endTime":2001.87,"body":"rests upon the Atlantic World,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2001.87,"endTime":2003.79,"body":"there was like a common market"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2003.79,"endTime":2006.25,"body":"providing specialization"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2006.25,"endTime":2009.34,"body":"of enslaved people producing these goods."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2009.34,"endTime":2014.34,"body":"He argues that it was"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2009.34,"endTime":2014.34,"body":"Africans in the New World"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2015.4,"endTime":2018.04,"body":"who provided most of the commodities"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2018.04,"endTime":2023.04,"body":"being sent overseas to Europe,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2023.23,"endTime":2028.23,"body":"they produced 82.5% of all"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2023.23,"endTime":2028.23,"body":"the exports from the Americas,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2029.35,"endTime":2032.563,"body":"he says, in the 1760s and '70s."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2034.89,"endTime":2038.26,"body":"He said it was Africa, African people,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2038.26,"endTime":2041.44,"body":"fueled this whole trade,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2041.44,"endTime":2045.1,"body":"that these commodities went to"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2041.44,"endTime":2045.1,"body":"the metropole for re-export,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2045.1,"endTime":2048.13,"body":"they led the development"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2045.1,"endTime":2048.13,"body":"of European trade,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2048.13,"endTime":2051.01,"body":"the merchants, the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2048.13,"endTime":2051.01,"body":"farmers of North America"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2051.01,"endTime":2053.65,"body":"prospered on this basis."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2053.65,"endTime":2056.533,"body":"It leads to the growth of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2053.65,"endTime":2056.533,"body":"shipbuilding and shipping,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2057.97,"endTime":2060.883,"body":"it leads to the growth of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2057.97,"endTime":2060.883,"body":"the financial service sector,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2061.87,"endTime":2063.22,"body":"it leads to the development"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2063.22,"endTime":2066.64,"body":"of the West Indian Docks"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2063.22,"endTime":2066.64,"body":"in London, for example,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2066.64,"endTime":2069.79,"body":"and to the Lloyd's marine"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2066.64,"endTime":2069.79,"body":"insurance industry,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2069.79,"endTime":2073.06,"body":"where he claims that about 60%"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2073.06,"endTime":2078.06,"body":"of all of the premiums issued there,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2080.14,"endTime":2081.88,"body":"insurance certificates issued there"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2081.88,"endTime":2086.02,"body":"came from this trade."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2086.02,"endTime":2088.48,"body":"Imported raw materials"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2088.48,"endTime":2092.023,"body":"supplied the goods for"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2088.48,"endTime":2092.023,"body":"British industrialization,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2093.16,"endTime":2095.53,"body":"he says that British industrial regions"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2095.53,"endTime":2099.22,"body":"were integrated with their export markets"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2099.22,"endTime":2102.79,"body":"and their source of raw"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2099.22,"endTime":2102.79,"body":"materials externally,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2102.79,"endTime":2106.333,"body":"they were not integrated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2102.79,"endTime":2106.333,"body":"internally within Britain."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2108.46,"endTime":2111.73,"body":"Slave-produced commodities"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2108.46,"endTime":2111.73,"body":"produced new tastes,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2111.73,"endTime":2115.423,"body":"led to development of consumer"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2111.73,"endTime":2115.423,"body":"culture within Britain."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2116.89,"endTime":2119.35,"body":"It then links up into Asia"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2119.35,"endTime":2123.07,"body":"because bullion being"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2119.35,"endTime":2123.07,"body":"earned within this trade"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2123.07,"endTime":2125.35,"body":"then bought the goods from Asia,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2125.35,"endTime":2128.413,"body":"the textiles, the tea, and so on."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2129.46,"endTime":2131.44,"body":"So the whole thing,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2131.44,"endTime":2133.6,"body":"the whole development"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2131.44,"endTime":2133.6,"body":"of the British economy"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2133.6,"endTime":2138.22,"body":"revolves around this"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2133.6,"endTime":2138.22,"body":"slave-based Atlantic economy."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2138.22,"endTime":2140.14,"body":"Now, it's right to put that back"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2140.14,"endTime":2142.21,"body":"at the center of the picture,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2142.21,"endTime":2146.77,"body":"but there's also a danger of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2142.21,"endTime":2146.77,"body":"going too far, of exaggerating,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2146.77,"endTime":2150.07,"body":"and that has actually entered"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2146.77,"endTime":2150.07,"body":"into public discourse."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2150.07,"endTime":2153.37,"body":"What I want to do now"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2150.07,"endTime":2153.37,"body":"is try and probe a bit"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2153.37,"endTime":2156.463,"body":"at just how important this was."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2157.81,"endTime":2159.37,"body":"It was important,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2159.37,"endTime":2162.25,"body":"it was wrong when I was a"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2159.37,"endTime":2162.25,"body":"student back in the 1960s"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2162.25,"endTime":2163.6,"body":"not to talk about it,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2163.6,"endTime":2165.703,"body":"but equally, one can exaggerate."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2168.22,"endTime":2169.543,"body":"So the first question is,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2170.56,"endTime":2174.25,"body":"what did slave traders and the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2170.56,"endTime":2174.25,"body":"owners of slave plantations"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2174.25,"endTime":2176.113,"body":"do with their profits?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2177.16,"endTime":2179.11,"body":"It's not necessarily the case"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2179.11,"endTime":2182.65,"body":"that profits from slavery and"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2179.11,"endTime":2182.65,"body":"the wider Atlantic economy"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2182.65,"endTime":2184.69,"body":"were invested in industry."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2184.69,"endTime":2185.523,"body":"We need to know"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2185.523,"endTime":2190.15,"body":"how did these people consume and invest"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2190.15,"endTime":2192.643,"body":"compared with individuals in other trades."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2193.69,"endTime":2198.69,"body":"Many of them spent their money upon waste,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2199.03,"endTime":2200.8,"body":"building Fonthill Abbey,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2200.8,"endTime":2202.75,"body":"the heir of William Beckford."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2202.75,"endTime":2206.023,"body":"It fell down, it bankrupted him."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2207.55,"endTime":2209.41,"body":"So it's not necessarily the case"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2209.41,"endTime":2213.28,"body":"the money goes into industry,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2213.28,"endTime":2217.243,"body":"it could in fact go into landed"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2213.28,"endTime":2217.243,"body":"estates more than anything."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2218.08,"endTime":2221.47,"body":"And the major survey"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2218.08,"endTime":2221.47,"body":"of who was compensated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2221.47,"endTime":2223.81,"body":"at the time of the abolition of slavery"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2223.81,"endTime":2225.527,"body":"finds, and I quote,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2225.527,"endTime":2228.827,"body":"\"It was predominantly Tory Anglicans"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2228.827,"endTime":2230.747,"body":"\"who received the money."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2230.747,"endTime":2232.67,"body":"\"Large scale slave ownership"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2234.497,"endTime":2239.257,"body":"\"permeated sections of the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2234.497,"endTime":2239.257,"body":"Anglican rural gentry class.\""},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2240.13,"endTime":2243.16,"body":"That is true of two major slave planters,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2243.16,"endTime":2244.45,"body":"I'll just mention them briefly,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2244.45,"endTime":2246.4,"body":"one is Simon Taylor,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2246.4,"endTime":2250.453,"body":"who was the richest"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2246.4,"endTime":2250.453,"body":"slave owner in Jamaica,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2251.35,"endTime":2254.86,"body":"he had several children"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2251.35,"endTime":2254.86,"body":"by slave mistresses,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2254.86,"endTime":2256.78,"body":"to use a euphemism."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2256.78,"endTime":2258.94,"body":"His heir was his brother John,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2258.94,"endTime":2261.24,"body":"who was a member of the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2258.94,"endTime":2261.24,"body":"Society of Dilettanti,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2262.66,"endTime":2265.9,"body":"was notorious for being a spendthrift,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2265.9,"endTime":2269.56,"body":"to the horror of his brother Simon."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2269.56,"endTime":2274.21,"body":"He died, the money all"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2269.56,"endTime":2274.21,"body":"went to Simon's nephew,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2274.21,"endTime":2275.14,"body":"who also died,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2275.14,"endTime":2276.73,"body":"it went then to the niece,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2276.73,"endTime":2280.12,"body":"who married a spendthrift called George,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2280.12,"endTime":2284.29,"body":"who spent his time hanging"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2280.12,"endTime":2284.29,"body":"around with William IV,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2284.29,"endTime":2286.12,"body":"spending it on fine art,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2286.12,"endTime":2288.613,"body":"and building a landed estate in Wiltshire."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2290.26,"endTime":2292.183,"body":"That family disappeared."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2293.05,"endTime":2298.05,"body":"That was not true of the Lascelles"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2293.05,"endTime":2298.05,"body":"family of Harewood House,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2298.18,"endTime":2303.18,"body":"who built up a major aristocratic fortune."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2305.71,"endTime":2308.59,"body":"They were not initially"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2305.71,"endTime":2308.59,"body":"slave owners or planters,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2308.59,"endTime":2311.05,"body":"they were merchants and financiers,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2311.05,"endTime":2313.9,"body":"but in the 1770s,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2313.9,"endTime":2317.32,"body":"when the War of Independence in America"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2317.32,"endTime":2319.84,"body":"led to bankruptcy by estates,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2319.84,"endTime":2322.09,"body":"they acquired the estates,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2322.09,"endTime":2326.29,"body":"so they became slave owners"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2322.09,"endTime":2326.29,"body":"almost by happenstance,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2326.29,"endTime":2328.813,"body":"they owned about 3,000 slaves."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2330.49,"endTime":2332.71,"body":"The fortune went to two brothers,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2332.71,"endTime":2335.89,"body":"one ran the business,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2332.71,"endTime":2335.89,"body":"one built the estate,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2335.89,"endTime":2336.91,"body":"neither of them had children,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2336.91,"endTime":2339.46,"body":"it then went to a relative,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2339.46,"endTime":2342.613,"body":"who became the earl of Harewood in 1812."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2343.87,"endTime":2347.74,"body":"The fortune led to an aristocratic estate"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2347.74,"endTime":2349.453,"body":"rather than industry."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2351.49,"endTime":2352.96,"body":"We then need to ask"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2352.96,"endTime":2355.42,"body":"which way did money flow?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2355.42,"endTime":2358.72,"body":"Money didn't only flow from the Caribbean"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2358.72,"endTime":2362.32,"body":"to London, or Glasgow, or wherever,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2362.32,"endTime":2364.603,"body":"it could flow the other way."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2366.13,"endTime":2369.82,"body":"Merchants who prospered from that trade"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2369.82,"endTime":2372.88,"body":"could in fact put their"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2369.82,"endTime":2372.88,"body":"money into plantations,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2372.88,"endTime":2374.14,"body":"the money could be taken out"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2374.14,"endTime":2376.063,"body":"rather than going into Lancashire."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2377.05,"endTime":2381.13,"body":"That was true, for"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2377.05,"endTime":2381.13,"body":"example, of John Gladstone,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2381.13,"endTime":2383.71,"body":"a Liverpool merchant and property owner"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2383.71,"endTime":2387.07,"body":"who didn't initially put his"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2383.71,"endTime":2387.07,"body":"money into Lancashire industry,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2387.07,"endTime":2390.703,"body":"he put into sugar estates in Demerara."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2391.86,"endTime":2396.79,"body":"In 1833, he had about 300,000"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2391.86,"endTime":2396.79,"body":"pounds invested there,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2396.79,"endTime":2400.09,"body":"but only 1,200 pounds in shares"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2400.09,"endTime":2403.393,"body":"in docks, canals, and"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2400.09,"endTime":2403.393,"body":"railways in Lancashire."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2404.47,"endTime":2407.65,"body":"So Stanley Engerman and David Eltis,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2407.65,"endTime":2411.46,"body":"two leading historians of the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2407.65,"endTime":2411.46,"body":"Atlantic economy of slavery,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2411.46,"endTime":2414.973,"body":"says that it's not clear which"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2411.46,"endTime":2414.973,"body":"way the money was flowing."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2415.99,"endTime":2418.33,"body":"The Caribbean might have been generating"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2418.33,"endTime":2420.64,"body":"much of the capital it needed itself,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2420.64,"endTime":2425.02,"body":"but it might also have been"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2420.64,"endTime":2425.02,"body":"bringing money in from Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2425.02,"endTime":2429.283,"body":"so which way round it goes needs"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2425.02,"endTime":2429.283,"body":"to be carefully considered."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2430.78,"endTime":2435.34,"body":"The next point to make is,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2435.34,"endTime":2440.34,"body":"was the Atlantic economy large"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2435.34,"endTime":2440.34,"body":"enough to be the prime mover?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2441.88,"endTime":2446.88,"body":"And this is the calculation"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2441.88,"endTime":2446.88,"body":"of Engerman and Eltis,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2447.16,"endTime":2449.2,"body":"where they work out the value added"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2449.2,"endTime":2452.08,"body":"in different sectors of the economy,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2452.08,"endTime":2454.15,"body":"and they suggest that West Indian sugar"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2454.15,"endTime":2458.23,"body":"had a value added of 5.4"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2454.15,"endTime":2458.23,"body":"million pounds in 1845,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2458.23,"endTime":2461.23,"body":"but look at how big some"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2458.23,"endTime":2461.23,"body":"of the other sectors were,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2461.23,"endTime":2463.45,"body":"that's only some of the other sectors."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2463.45,"endTime":2467.17,"body":"So their point here is that,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2467.17,"endTime":2469.27,"body":"put it in perspective,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2469.27,"endTime":2472.183,"body":"and they said that, if we think about it,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2473.11,"endTime":2476.08,"body":"it's true the Caribbean"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2473.11,"endTime":2476.08,"body":"plantation production"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2476.08,"endTime":2481.08,"body":"was growing at about 1% a"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2476.08,"endTime":2481.08,"body":"year in the 18th century"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2481.33,"endTime":2485.8,"body":"compared with about 0.7%"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2481.33,"endTime":2485.8,"body":"of the British economy,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2485.8,"endTime":2489.04,"body":"so it was growing compared with Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2489.04,"endTime":2490.36,"body":"but, they said,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2490.36,"endTime":2494.8,"body":"it only meant it was growing"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2490.36,"endTime":2494.8,"body":"from being the size of Rutland,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2494.8,"endTime":2496.54,"body":"the smallest English county,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2496.54,"endTime":2497.443,"body":"to Lancashire,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2498.67,"endTime":2503.67,"body":"so it's important, but not so important."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2504.64,"endTime":2506.71,"body":"And if we put it into perspective,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2506.71,"endTime":2510.25,"body":"the French Caribbean and"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2506.71,"endTime":2510.25,"body":"the Spanish Caribbean"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2510.25,"endTime":2512.35,"body":"was growing even more rapidly"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2512.35,"endTime":2516.16,"body":"and becoming a larger"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2512.35,"endTime":2516.16,"body":"share of their economies"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2516.16,"endTime":2518.8,"body":"than was the case of Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2518.8,"endTime":2521.08,"body":"so why didn't they have"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2518.8,"endTime":2521.08,"body":"an industrial revolution"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2521.08,"endTime":2522.94,"body":"if it all rested upon"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2521.08,"endTime":2522.94,"body":"the Atlantic economy,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2522.94,"endTime":2525.19,"body":"is their point."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2525.19,"endTime":2528.79,"body":"So we're not denying that the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2525.19,"endTime":2528.79,"body":"Atlantic economy had a role,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2528.79,"endTime":2531.19,"body":"but we need to be careful."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2531.19,"endTime":2533.98,"body":"I think Eltis and Engerman"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2531.19,"endTime":2533.98,"body":"actually go too far"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2533.98,"endTime":2537.01,"body":"in minimizing the role,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2537.01,"endTime":2539.14,"body":"I think that it was"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2537.01,"endTime":2539.14,"body":"actually more important"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2539.14,"endTime":2540.28,"body":"than they suggest."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2540.28,"endTime":2542.41,"body":"If you look at cotton textiles,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2542.41,"endTime":2543.91,"body":"well, that's a very important sector"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2543.91,"endTime":2545.56,"body":"to the British Industrial Revolution."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2545.56,"endTime":2546.49,"body":"They say, well actually,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2546.49,"endTime":2550.51,"body":"raw cotton was not very valuable"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2550.51,"endTime":2552.46,"body":"compared with the productivity"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2552.46,"endTime":2555.76,"body":"of the workers at home in the factories."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2555.76,"endTime":2556.593,"body":"But of course,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2556.593,"endTime":2557.98,"body":"you wouldn't have had those"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2556.593,"endTime":2557.98,"body":"workers at home in the factories"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2557.98,"endTime":2561.07,"body":"if they didn't have a supply"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2557.98,"endTime":2561.07,"body":"of unlimited raw material"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2561.07,"endTime":2562.63,"body":"coming in,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2562.63,"endTime":2564.103,"body":"so just be careful."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2565.75,"endTime":2568.06,"body":"My next point is,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2568.06,"endTime":2570.7,"body":"where did industry get its capital from"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2570.7,"endTime":2572.233,"body":"to industrialize in Britain?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2573.25,"endTime":2574.51,"body":"Well, a point here"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2574.51,"endTime":2577.6,"body":"is that even large cotton factories"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2577.6,"endTime":2580.81,"body":"did not need much fixed capital,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2580.81,"endTime":2582.55,"body":"most of what they needed"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2582.55,"endTime":2587.47,"body":"was in the credit for"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2582.55,"endTime":2587.47,"body":"securing raw materials"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2587.47,"endTime":2589.84,"body":"and giving credit to consumers,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2589.84,"endTime":2591.823,"body":"so they didn't need much capital,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2593.8,"endTime":2595.9,"body":"and the capital that they needed"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2595.9,"endTime":2599.38,"body":"could come from plowing"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2595.9,"endTime":2599.38,"body":"back their own profits,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2599.38,"endTime":2602.503,"body":"as in fact Eric Williams himself admitted."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2603.76,"endTime":2606.67,"body":"The initial capital to go into those mills"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2606.67,"endTime":2610.0,"body":"could come from the so-called"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2606.67,"endTime":2610.0,"body":"putting-out merchants,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2610.0,"endTime":2612.61,"body":"the people who put out raw materials"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2612.61,"endTime":2616.33,"body":"to the people working at home"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2612.61,"endTime":2616.33,"body":"in small workshops at home"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2616.33,"endTime":2620.56,"body":"in the villages and the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2616.33,"endTime":2620.56,"body":"hills of the Pennines,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2620.56,"endTime":2621.85,"body":"so it could be plowed back"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2621.85,"endTime":2624.853,"body":"from that previous domestic"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2621.85,"endTime":2624.853,"body":"system of production."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2625.96,"endTime":2629.23,"body":"Large sums of capital were needed"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2629.23,"endTime":2633.43,"body":"to sink deep coal mines,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2633.43,"endTime":2635.5,"body":"but where did that money come from?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2635.5,"endTime":2637.27,"body":"Landed aristocrats,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2637.27,"endTime":2641.08,"body":"like the marquesses of Bute in South Wales"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2645.043,"body":"or the Londonderry Estate in"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2645.043,"body":"the North East of England,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2646.24,"endTime":2650.473,"body":"so again, let's be careful about"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2646.24,"endTime":2650.473,"body":"where this money came from."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2651.34,"endTime":2653.92,"body":"Credit was important,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2653.92,"endTime":2655.57,"body":"but where does credit come from"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2655.57,"endTime":2659.533,"body":"to buy your materials, to"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2655.57,"endTime":2659.533,"body":"supply credit to consumers?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2662.05,"endTime":2666.1,"body":"A lot of it comes from the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2662.05,"endTime":2666.1,"body":"agricultural districts,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2666.1,"endTime":2668.62,"body":"so East Anglia, after the harvest,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2668.62,"endTime":2669.97,"body":"has spare money,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2669.97,"endTime":2671.86,"body":"they send it down to London,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2671.86,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"London bankers sent it up to"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2671.86,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"the bankers in Lancashire,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2675.79,"endTime":2680.79,"body":"so it could be this recycling"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2675.79,"endTime":2680.79,"body":"of credit within Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2681.07,"endTime":2683.983,"body":"as well as coming across the Caribbean."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2686.35,"endTime":2688.16,"body":"And my next point"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2689.35,"endTime":2694.35,"body":"is to ask whether or not"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2689.35,"endTime":2694.35,"body":"the industrial regions were,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2694.63,"endTime":2696.25,"body":"as Inikori suggested,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2696.25,"endTime":2698.636,"body":"more integrated with colonial markets"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2698.636,"endTime":2700.33,"body":"than they were internally."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2700.33,"endTime":2701.2,"body":"Well I think, in fact,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2701.2,"endTime":2705.37,"body":"that is already indicated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2701.2,"endTime":2705.37,"body":"by what I've just said,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2708.46,"body":"markets were integrated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2708.46,"body":"internally within Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2708.46,"endTime":2711.583,"body":"as in that cycle of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2708.46,"endTime":2711.583,"body":"credit from Lancashire."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2712.42,"endTime":2715.0,"body":"In fact, what is striking about Britain,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2715.0,"endTime":2716.95,"body":"compared with many European countries,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2716.95,"endTime":2720.4,"body":"is how integrated it did become"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2720.4,"endTime":2722.11,"body":"from the late 17th century,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2722.11,"endTime":2723.64,"body":"with a single market"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2723.64,"endTime":2725.5,"body":"where you could trace how it is integrated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2725.5,"endTime":2726.943,"body":"by the movement of prices,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2728.56,"endTime":2730.243,"body":"say for grain and wheat."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2732.43,"endTime":2734.14,"body":"And my next,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2734.14,"endTime":2736.27,"body":"and, you'll be delighted"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2734.14,"endTime":2736.27,"body":"to hear, final point,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2736.27,"endTime":2741.27,"body":"about arguing how important"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2736.27,"endTime":2741.27,"body":"this Atlantic economy was"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2741.37,"endTime":2744.193,"body":"is to look at the fiscal-military state."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2745.42,"endTime":2748.03,"body":"In Spain and Portugal,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2748.03,"endTime":2751.75,"body":"the state revenues from Latin America"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2751.75,"endTime":2753.94,"body":"paid for European warfare,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2753.94,"endTime":2756.46,"body":"which diminished economic potential,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2756.46,"endTime":2760.18,"body":"so don't necessarily think that"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2756.46,"endTime":2760.18,"body":"it leads to economic growth."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2760.18,"endTime":2761.53,"body":"The British state"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2761.53,"endTime":2765.46,"body":"did not rely largely upon"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2761.53,"endTime":2765.46,"body":"revenues coming from overseas,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2765.46,"endTime":2770.46,"body":"it relied upon a powerful"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2765.46,"endTime":2770.46,"body":"internal domestic tax state,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2772.067,"endTime":2775.36,"body":"and that internal domestic tax state"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2775.36,"endTime":2777.4,"body":"was just very successful."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2777.4,"endTime":2779.77,"body":"Britain did not default on any loan"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2779.77,"endTime":2781.69,"body":"in the whole of the 18th century,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2781.69,"endTime":2784.39,"body":"the French defaulted nearly every year"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2784.39,"endTime":2786.1,"body":"in the 18th century."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2786.1,"endTime":2789.46,"body":"So it was how you structured"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2786.1,"endTime":2789.46,"body":"these things internally"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2789.46,"endTime":2792.16,"body":"in creating a legitimate tax regime"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2792.16,"endTime":2793.843,"body":"is very important."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2795.94,"endTime":2799.93,"body":"Now, I want to link that point"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2799.93,"endTime":2803.623,"body":"to why slavery was then abolished."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2806.14,"endTime":2808.3,"body":"In 1833,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2808.3,"endTime":2812.77,"body":"Parliament voted to abolish"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2808.3,"endTime":2812.77,"body":"slavery in the British Empire,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2812.77,"endTime":2814.6,"body":"but not in India,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2814.6,"endTime":2817.3,"body":"and as yet not banning"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2814.6,"endTime":2817.3,"body":"British involvement in slavery"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2817.3,"endTime":2818.593,"body":"elsewhere in the world."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2820.09,"endTime":2821.68,"body":"The point I would make here"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2821.68,"endTime":2826.593,"body":"is that it's not slavery"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2821.68,"endTime":2826.593,"body":"which was the issue here,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2828.43,"endTime":2831.337,"body":"which is what's causing the downfall,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2835.3,"endTime":2838.363,"body":"it's the monopoly of West Indian sugar."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2839.89,"endTime":2842.59,"body":"Should you be protecting"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2839.89,"endTime":2842.59,"body":"one interest against another"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2842.59,"endTime":2846.49,"body":"which is putting costs"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2842.59,"endTime":2846.49,"body":"upon British consumers?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2846.49,"endTime":2851.32,"body":"That links in with an"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2846.49,"endTime":2851.32,"body":"attack upon the fiscal state"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2851.32,"endTime":2853.453,"body":"having suddenly lost its legitimacy."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2854.29,"endTime":2856.48,"body":"After the Napoleonic Wars,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2856.48,"endTime":2859.24,"body":"landowners are escaping taxation,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2859.24,"endTime":2861.16,"body":"but they're being given subsidies"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2861.16,"endTime":2863.2,"body":"for their corn production,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2863.2,"endTime":2864.97,"body":"that's falling upon the workers,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2864.97,"endTime":2867.34,"body":"is falling upon industry."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2867.34,"endTime":2869.56,"body":"Part of that internal debate"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2869.56,"endTime":2874.45,"body":"is then leading to a threat"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2869.56,"endTime":2874.45,"body":"to the West Indian interest."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2874.45,"endTime":2878.89,"body":"To Williams, the slave trade ended"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2878.89,"endTime":2882.76,"body":"because it was incompatible"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2878.89,"endTime":2882.76,"body":"with industrial capitalism."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2882.76,"endTime":2884.47,"body":"No, I don't think it was,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2884.47,"endTime":2885.853,"body":"he himself admits that."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2887.5,"endTime":2891.943,"body":"Slavery continues to be used"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2887.5,"endTime":2891.943,"body":"by British industrialists,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2892.78,"endTime":2896.383,"body":"so I think what's going on"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2892.78,"endTime":2896.383,"body":"here is partly humanitarianism,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2898.06,"endTime":2903.06,"body":"there's a big uprising in"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2898.06,"endTime":2903.06,"body":"1831 led by the Baptists."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2903.64,"endTime":2906.34,"body":"Who looks as if they are"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2903.64,"endTime":2906.34,"body":"attacking Christianity?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2906.34,"endTime":2907.603,"body":"The slave owners,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2908.89,"endTime":2911.653,"body":"so there's a change in perception here."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2912.52,"endTime":2914.35,"body":"So humanitarianism,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2914.35,"endTime":2916.27,"body":"but also I'm suggesting, above all,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2916.27,"endTime":2918.613,"body":"the politics of the West Indian interest."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2919.72,"endTime":2924.22,"body":"So you want to try and"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2919.72,"endTime":2924.22,"body":"create a stable system,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2924.22,"endTime":2927.07,"body":"now you've got urbanized,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2924.22,"endTime":2927.07,"body":"industrial workers,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2927.07,"endTime":2928.33,"body":"you need to show"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2928.33,"endTime":2933.33,"body":"that those workers can share"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2928.33,"endTime":2933.33,"body":"in the benefits of trade,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2933.61,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"and you do that by the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2933.61,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"removing the monopoly power"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2937.6,"endTime":2940.003,"body":"of the West Indian interest."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2941.41,"endTime":2944.86,"body":"Industrialists themselves"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2941.41,"endTime":2944.86,"body":"continue to rely on,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2944.86,"endTime":2947.17,"body":"or use slavery."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2947.17,"endTime":2950.567,"body":"They owned this copper mine in Cuba."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2957.04,"endTime":2961.183,"body":"The production of copper"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2957.04,"endTime":2961.183,"body":"was very important,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2962.53,"endTime":2965.2,"body":"this is currency being"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2962.53,"endTime":2965.2,"body":"sent to West Africa,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2965.2,"endTime":2968.923,"body":"being used in the sugar industry"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2965.2,"endTime":2968.923,"body":"there in the West Indies,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2970.87,"endTime":2975.25,"body":"and the copper smelters of Swansea"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2975.25,"endTime":2980.08,"body":"own this slave-run copper mine in Cuba,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2981.52,"endTime":2985.363,"body":"even after the abolition"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2981.52,"endTime":2985.363,"body":"of slavery in Britain."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2986.38,"endTime":2991.38,"body":"Even when the British were"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2986.38,"endTime":2991.38,"body":"not allowed to own slaves,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2991.6,"endTime":2995.263,"body":"they get around it by hiring slaves."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":2998.5,"endTime":3000.48,"body":"In return for abolition,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3000.48,"endTime":3004.593,"body":"slave owners were compensated"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3000.48,"endTime":3004.593,"body":"by up to 20 million pounds,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3005.43,"endTime":3008.193,"body":"equivalent to about 5% of the British GDP."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3010.778,"endTime":3012.423,"body":"The slaves were not compensated."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3014.13,"endTime":3015.27,"body":"Now, the question then is,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3015.27,"endTime":3016.623,"body":"what happens to that money?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3017.61,"endTime":3021.6,"body":"Well, a lot of that money"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3017.61,"endTime":3021.6,"body":"went into landed estates,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3021.6,"endTime":3023.73,"body":"as I've just been suggesting."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3023.73,"endTime":3026.79,"body":"It's often said it went"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3023.73,"endTime":3026.79,"body":"into industrialization,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3026.79,"endTime":3028.14,"body":"well to some extent it did."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3028.14,"endTime":3030.18,"body":"Here's John Gladstone,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3030.18,"endTime":3032.19,"body":"and he put, in 1843,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3032.19,"endTime":3034.38,"body":"a lot of money into shares,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3034.38,"endTime":3037.2,"body":"quite a bit of which went into railways."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3037.2,"endTime":3038.37,"body":"But it wasn't only that,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3038.37,"endTime":3041.523,"body":"you could also go into land ownership."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3042.69,"endTime":3046.41,"body":"In fact, some bankers in Birmingham,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3046.41,"endTime":3047.52,"body":"to take one example,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3047.52,"endTime":3051.72,"body":"feared that by raising a"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3047.52,"endTime":3051.72,"body":"loan to provide compensation,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3051.72,"endTime":3055.44,"body":"it was taking money away"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3051.72,"endTime":3055.44,"body":"from industrialization,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3055.44,"endTime":3059.048,"body":"and in fact, a lot of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3055.44,"endTime":3059.048,"body":"that money went overseas."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3059.048,"endTime":3060.33,"body":"A lot of it went overseas, of course,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3060.33,"endTime":3062.85,"body":"into slave-produced cotton,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3062.85,"endTime":3066.633,"body":"railways in the American"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3062.85,"endTime":3066.633,"body":"South, or into Brazil."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3067.98,"endTime":3069.33,"body":"And then finally,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3069.33,"endTime":3074.33,"body":"I would like to ask what"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3069.33,"endTime":3074.33,"body":"happens to West Africa"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3074.37,"endTime":3075.513,"body":"in all of this?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3077.07,"endTime":3079.593,"body":"What was the impact of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3077.07,"endTime":3079.593,"body":"abolition in Africa?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3081.75,"endTime":3082.583,"body":"I think, there,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3082.583,"endTime":3084.15,"body":"there's already tensions occurring"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3084.15,"endTime":3087.063,"body":"before the abolition of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3084.15,"endTime":3087.063,"body":"the slave trade in 1807."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3088.62,"endTime":3091.8,"body":"These centralized states I talked about"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3091.8,"endTime":3094.533,"body":"were building up warrior aristocracies."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3095.46,"endTime":3099.78,"body":"They capture people in the warfare"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3099.78,"endTime":3101.46,"body":"and they sell them overseas,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3101.46,"endTime":3102.6,"body":"partly to compensate"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3102.6,"endTime":3105.423,"body":"for the depreciation"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3102.6,"endTime":3105.423,"body":"of their soft currency."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3108.06,"endTime":3110.97,"body":"They're losing contact"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3110.97,"endTime":3113.55,"body":"with the people within"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3110.97,"endTime":3113.55,"body":"their own societies,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3113.55,"endTime":3115.11,"body":"within their own states,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3115.11,"endTime":3117.42,"body":"they're seen as being parasitical,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3117.42,"endTime":3122.42,"body":"they're seen as a threat to"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3117.42,"endTime":3122.42,"body":"people who would be enslaved,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3123.54,"endTime":3125.58,"body":"so these tyrannical warrior elites"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3125.58,"endTime":3128.73,"body":"are already being"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3125.58,"endTime":3128.73,"body":"challenged by local revolts,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3128.73,"endTime":3131.37,"body":"which actually link back"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3128.73,"endTime":3131.37,"body":"to what is happening"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3131.37,"endTime":3133.11,"body":"in things like Tacky's Revolt,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3133.11,"endTime":3135.36,"body":"there are movements across the Atlantic,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3135.36,"endTime":3138.393,"body":"and notice, the Maroons"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3135.36,"endTime":3138.393,"body":"end up in Sierra Leone."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3139.8,"endTime":3141.75,"body":"They're also then being threatened,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3141.75,"endTime":3143.16,"body":"these warrior elites,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3143.16,"endTime":3145.2,"body":"by the rise of Islam,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3145.2,"endTime":3146.4,"body":"because Islam"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3146.4,"endTime":3150.633,"body":"did not approve of the"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3146.4,"endTime":3150.633,"body":"Transatlantic slave trade."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3153.33,"endTime":3157.8,"body":"Some states actually"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3153.33,"endTime":3157.8,"body":"petitioned to keep slavery"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3157.8,"endTime":3159.423,"body":"as the basis of their wealth,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3160.53,"endTime":3162.183,"body":"Dahomey, Asante,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3163.56,"endTime":3167.463,"body":"but they're being"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3163.56,"endTime":3167.463,"body":"challenged now internally."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3169.98,"endTime":3172.92,"body":"There's also a change"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3169.98,"endTime":3172.92,"body":"going on economically."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3172.92,"endTime":3176.763,"body":"West Africa had to produce"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3172.92,"endTime":3176.763,"body":"food for slave voyages,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3178.56,"endTime":3180.36,"body":"so there's the basis already there"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3180.36,"endTime":3185.103,"body":"for a different economic"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3180.36,"endTime":3185.103,"body":"basis of producing crops."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3186.27,"endTime":3188.52,"body":"And with the rise of Islam,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3188.52,"endTime":3192.39,"body":"which didn't approve of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3188.52,"endTime":3192.39,"body":"Transatlantic chattel slavery,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3192.39,"endTime":3195.96,"body":"you have the growth of"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3192.39,"endTime":3195.96,"body":"coerced internal slavery,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3195.96,"endTime":3197.67,"body":"coerced labor,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3197.67,"endTime":3202.413,"body":"growing things like palm"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3197.67,"endTime":3202.413,"body":"oil and groundnuts, peanuts."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3204.33,"endTime":3207.51,"body":"The abolitionists hope"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3204.33,"endTime":3207.51,"body":"that by ending slavery,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3207.51,"endTime":3210.42,"body":"they would create"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3207.51,"endTime":3210.42,"body":"so-called legitimate trade"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3210.42,"endTime":3212.97,"body":"based upon free peasant labor."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3212.97,"endTime":3213.803,"body":"In fact,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3213.803,"endTime":3217.89,"body":"what happened was the growth"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3213.803,"endTime":3217.89,"body":"of plantation agriculture"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3217.89,"endTime":3221.403,"body":"on the basis of coerced labor internally."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3223.95,"endTime":3227.04,"body":"That change could then"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3223.95,"endTime":3227.04,"body":"also provide an opening"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3227.04,"endTime":3228.363,"body":"for imperialism."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3229.29,"endTime":3231.45,"body":"By the middle of the 19th century,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3231.45,"endTime":3235.89,"body":"the major West African"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3231.45,"endTime":3235.89,"body":"export was palm oil."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3235.89,"endTime":3237.63,"body":"So to take Liverpool,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3237.63,"endTime":3240.09,"body":"you move from people like John Gladstone"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3240.09,"endTime":3242.31,"body":"profiting from slavery"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3242.31,"endTime":3246.24,"body":"to William Lever and Port Sunlight,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3246.24,"endTime":3249.03,"body":"where his so-called legitimate commerce"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3249.03,"endTime":3252.483,"body":"was based upon forced labor in the Congo."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3253.86,"endTime":3255.003,"body":"So to conclude,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3256.44,"endTime":3259.5,"body":"we do need to insert the slave economy"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3259.5,"endTime":3260.97,"body":"into the history of Britain"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3260.97,"endTime":3263.52,"body":"as part of a wider Atlantic economy"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3263.52,"endTime":3266.28,"body":"which includes other European empires"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3266.28,"endTime":3270.48,"body":"and considers the impact on"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3266.28,"endTime":3270.48,"body":"the economies of West Africa"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3270.48,"endTime":3272.973,"body":"and the internal dynamics"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3270.48,"endTime":3272.973,"body":"within West Africa,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3273.84,"endTime":3274.74,"body":"but in doing this,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3274.74,"endTime":3277.92,"body":"we should not overcompensate"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3274.74,"endTime":3277.92,"body":"for past neglect,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3277.92,"endTime":3280.2,"body":"we need to look carefully at the details"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3280.2,"endTime":3283.56,"body":"of the relative importance"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3280.2,"endTime":3283.56,"body":"of the slave-based economy"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3283.56,"endTime":3287.22,"body":"compared with other"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3283.56,"endTime":3287.22,"body":"markets in Europe, in Asia,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3287.22,"endTime":3290.55,"body":"the source of raw materials,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3287.22,"endTime":3290.55,"body":"the sources of capital,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3290.55,"endTime":3292.743,"body":"the direction of investment of profits."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3294.0,"endTime":3295.317,"body":"To criticize anybody"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3295.317,"endTime":3297.66,"body":"who tries to work through these arguments"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3297.66,"endTime":3302.49,"body":"as somehow engaging in some"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3297.66,"endTime":3302.49,"body":"sort of woke enterprise"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3302.49,"endTime":3305.16,"body":"is to misunderstand British history."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3305.16,"endTime":3308.25,"body":"These issues were"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3305.16,"endTime":3308.25,"body":"debated by contemporaries"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3308.25,"endTime":3310.77,"body":"and deeply divided opinion then,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3310.77,"endTime":3312.27,"body":"as they do now."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3312.27,"endTime":3316.08,"body":"To say that analysis"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3312.27,"endTime":3316.08,"body":"undermines our common heritage"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3316.08,"endTime":3317.49,"body":"ignores the reality"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3317.49,"endTime":3321.735,"body":"that our history has"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3317.49,"endTime":3321.735,"body":"always been contested."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3321.735,"endTime":3322.71,"body":"And by the way,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3322.71,"endTime":3325.59,"body":"what happened to that"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3322.71,"endTime":3325.59,"body":"memorial of John Gordon"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3325.59,"endTime":3326.853,"body":"with which I started?"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3327.72,"endTime":3329.91,"body":"Well, because it's in a church,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3329.91,"endTime":3331.53,"body":"it's not under civil law,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3331.53,"endTime":3333.75,"body":"it's under ecclesiastical law."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3333.75,"endTime":3337.83,"body":"It's going to be taken"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3333.75,"endTime":3337.83,"body":"down and moved to a museum,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3337.83,"endTime":3340.05,"body":"unlike William Beckford,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3340.05,"endTime":3343.5,"body":"where the common councilors"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3340.05,"endTime":3343.5,"body":"decided he will stay there"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3343.5,"endTime":3346.92,"body":"with a plaque to provide an explanation."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3346.92,"endTime":3348.51,"body":"Well, as I suggested,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3348.51,"endTime":3350.61,"body":"there's a lot of explaining to do."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3350.61,"endTime":3351.587,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3351.587,"endTime":3354.587,"body":"(audience applauds)"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3361.646,"endTime":3362.82,"body":"- Thank you very much indeed,"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3362.82,"endTime":3364.443,"body":"that was a wonderful lecture."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3365.37,"endTime":3368.01,"body":"As ever, we have some questions"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3365.37,"endTime":3368.01,"body":"coming in from abroad."},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3368.01,"endTime":3369.54,"body":"The first one, though, is a statement"},{"speaker":"So this is the debate","startTime":3369.54,"endTime":3371.58,"body":"with which I think we can, probably,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3373.117,"endTime":3376.597,"body":"\"Why isn't this lecture, and more like it,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3376.597,"endTime":3380.88,"body":"\"a compulsory part of state"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3376.597,"endTime":3380.88,"body":"education in England?\""},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3380.88,"endTime":3383.46,"body":"And I can only agree with"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3380.88,"endTime":3383.46,"body":"that myself, I will say."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3383.46,"endTime":3384.293,"body":"- Hear, hear."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3390.278,"endTime":3393.42,"body":"- There's a specific"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3390.278,"endTime":3393.42,"body":"question from Adrian Leonard,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3393.42,"endTime":3394.437,"body":"who I suspect you might know the name of."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3394.437,"endTime":3397.38,"body":"- Oh gosh, one of my PhD students,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3397.38,"endTime":3399.877,"body":"an expert on the marine"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3397.38,"endTime":3399.877,"body":"insurance industry."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3399.877,"endTime":3401.827,"body":"- \"Is Thistlewood's example"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3401.827,"endTime":3404.377,"body":"\"representative of the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3401.827,"endTime":3404.377,"body":"treatment of enslaved peoples"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3404.377,"endTime":3407.617,"body":"\"in Jamaican and British"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3404.377,"endTime":3407.617,"body":"Caribbean plantations,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3407.617,"endTime":3409.11,"body":"\"or an outlier?\""},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3409.11,"endTime":3410.1,"body":"- Sorry, I couldn't quite hear?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3410.1,"endTime":3412.265,"body":"- Sorry, my voice is going."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3412.265,"endTime":3413.757,"body":"- No, no, my hearing."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3413.757,"endTime":3415.027,"body":"- \"Is Thistlewood's example"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3415.027,"endTime":3417.967,"body":"\"representative of the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3415.027,"endTime":3417.967,"body":"treatment of enslaved peoples"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3417.967,"endTime":3419.587,"body":"\"in Jamaica and the British Caribbean,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3419.587,"endTime":3420.54,"body":"\"or an outlier?\""},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3420.54,"endTime":3421.86,"body":"- Well, that's difficult to know"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3421.86,"endTime":3424.98,"body":"because, of course, it's"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3421.86,"endTime":3424.98,"body":"a diary which he kept,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3424.98,"endTime":3427.207,"body":"and it's been published,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3427.207,"endTime":3429.323,"body":"the Royal Historical"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3427.207,"endTime":3429.323,"body":"Society has an edition."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3430.35,"endTime":3433.413,"body":"I anticipated that question,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3435.18,"endTime":3436.92,"body":"and I already worked out my answer,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3436.92,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"which is that partly he's"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3436.92,"endTime":3441.81,"body":"recording his own behavior,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3441.81,"endTime":3445.78,"body":"which might make one think of the case"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3447.48,"endTime":3449.85,"body":"which we've all been horrified by,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3449.85,"endTime":3451.41,"body":"about the police officer,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3451.41,"endTime":3454.17,"body":"he was obviously a serial sex offender,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3454.17,"endTime":3455.67,"body":"he recorded all of his offenses,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3455.67,"endTime":3457.623,"body":"but he's also recording other people,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3459.09,"endTime":3461.04,"body":"so some of the quotes I had"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3461.04,"endTime":3462.33,"body":"were not of what he did,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3462.33,"endTime":3464.4,"body":"it's what other people did."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3464.4,"endTime":3466.62,"body":"And from Trevor Burnard,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3466.62,"endTime":3469.38,"body":"who has edited this work,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3469.38,"endTime":3474.38,"body":"he says the whole society was"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3469.38,"endTime":3474.38,"body":"based upon a regime of terror,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3474.72,"endTime":3477.84,"body":"of intimidation, of dehumanization,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3477.84,"endTime":3482.25,"body":"so Thistlewood is probably an extreme case"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3482.25,"endTime":3487.25,"body":"of what was a normalized"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3482.25,"endTime":3487.25,"body":"form of behavior there."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3489.03,"endTime":3491.46,"body":"And I think that it was"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3489.03,"endTime":3491.46,"body":"that sort of comment"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3491.46,"endTime":3493.8,"body":"of people like Samuel Johnson"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3493.8,"endTime":3497.19,"body":"which entered into the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3493.8,"endTime":3497.19,"body":"perception of the British"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3497.19,"endTime":3499.23,"body":"to think that these people,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3499.23,"endTime":3502.05,"body":"these white people in the Caribbean"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3502.05,"endTime":3503.4,"body":"have become depraved,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3503.4,"endTime":3504.453,"body":"they're not like us."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3505.89,"endTime":3506.94,"body":"- Let's open it to the floor,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3506.94,"endTime":3508.05,"body":"any questions from the floor?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3508.05,"endTime":3510.27,"body":"Let's start here first of all."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3510.27,"endTime":3513.63,"body":"- [Questioner] I have two"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3510.27,"endTime":3513.63,"body":"little points to ask you."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3513.63,"endTime":3515.31,"body":"First of all, in India,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3515.31,"endTime":3516.42,"body":"we didn't hear of slaves,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3516.42,"endTime":3518.553,"body":"but we heard of indentured labor,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3520.766,"endTime":3522.15,"body":"do you classify that as slavery,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3522.15,"endTime":3524.19,"body":"or is it something different?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3524.19,"endTime":3526.57,"body":"- You have indentured labor coming in"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3527.58,"endTime":3529.08,"body":"with the end of slavery,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3529.08,"endTime":3531.24,"body":"so you're bringing in Indian labor,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3531.24,"endTime":3532.073,"body":"but of course,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3532.073,"endTime":3535.26,"body":"you would have indentured"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3532.073,"endTime":3535.26,"body":"labor before this"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3535.26,"endTime":3537.96,"body":"people who are people who are from Britain"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3537.96,"endTime":3542.49,"body":"going to serve as indentured"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3537.96,"endTime":3542.49,"body":"servants in North America."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3542.49,"endTime":3544.2,"body":"But of course, at the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3542.49,"endTime":3544.2,"body":"end of the indenture,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3544.2,"endTime":3546.06,"body":"you have your freedom."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3546.06,"endTime":3549.21,"body":"- [Questioner] The other thing"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3546.06,"endTime":3549.21,"body":"you mentioned, about Islam,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3549.21,"endTime":3552.693,"body":"however, even after 1833,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3554.64,"endTime":3555.473,"body":"the slaves,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3555.473,"endTime":3558.09,"body":"which were originally"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3555.473,"endTime":3558.09,"body":"coming across the Sahara,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3558.09,"endTime":3560.14,"body":"were now going in the opposite direction,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3561.45,"endTime":3562.98,"body":"they were going to the Middle East."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3562.98,"endTime":3566.61,"body":"- Yes, the table,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3566.61,"endTime":3569.25,"body":"the slave voyages figure"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3566.61,"endTime":3569.25,"body":"I had up there earlier on"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3569.25,"endTime":3570.363,"body":"showed some of that."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3571.26,"endTime":3574.593,"body":"In fact, this happens"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3571.26,"endTime":3574.593,"body":"earlier as well as later."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3575.91,"endTime":3580.91,"body":"And the calculation by a"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3575.91,"endTime":3580.91,"body":"recent scholar is that,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3582.959,"endTime":3585.723,"body":"here you see, different scale,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3587.49,"endTime":3588.96,"body":"the calculation by one recent scholar"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3588.96,"endTime":3590.94,"body":"is that coerced labor, as I called it,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3590.94,"endTime":3595.94,"body":"within Africa in the early 19th century,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3598.65,"endTime":3599.82,"body":"well, in 1850,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3599.82,"endTime":3601.86,"body":"there were as many slaves within Africa"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3601.86,"endTime":3603.18,"body":"in those plantations"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3603.18,"endTime":3605.613,"body":"as there were in the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3603.18,"endTime":3605.613,"body":"Southern United States."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3608.19,"endTime":3610.59,"body":"Yeah, so you've got"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3608.19,"endTime":3610.59,"body":"different things happening,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3610.59,"endTime":3615.51,"body":"you've got this movement here,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3615.51,"endTime":3620.51,"body":"but you've also got the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3615.51,"endTime":3620.51,"body":"enslaved people within Africa."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3620.73,"endTime":3622.304,"body":"- Martin, what do you think"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3622.304,"endTime":3626.01,"body":"the sum total of the stories"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3622.304,"endTime":3626.01,"body":"that you've elucidated,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3626.01,"endTime":3627.3,"body":"this tale that you've elucidated,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3627.3,"endTime":3631.53,"body":"tells us about the morality"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3627.3,"endTime":3631.53,"body":"of capitalism and commerce"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3631.53,"endTime":3632.43,"body":"in the modern era?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3633.48,"endTime":3635.73,"body":"- Well, there's an"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3633.48,"endTime":3635.73,"body":"interesting question here"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3635.73,"endTime":3640.73,"body":"about whether we should be"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3635.73,"endTime":3640.73,"body":"thinking about what we're doing."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3643.02,"endTime":3646.2,"body":"I don't know if any of you"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3643.02,"endTime":3646.2,"body":"saw Mary Beard on television"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3646.2,"endTime":3648.843,"body":"about contested statues,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3650.01,"endTime":3652.5,"body":"where she pointed out"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3652.5,"endTime":3654.99,"body":"that she watched Colston being taken down"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3654.99,"endTime":3656.38,"body":"from his plinth in Bristol"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3657.33,"endTime":3659.46,"body":"on her iPhone,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3659.46,"endTime":3661.41,"body":"which made her reflect,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3661.41,"endTime":3664.8,"body":"where were the parts"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3661.41,"endTime":3664.8,"body":"of my iPhone produced,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3664.8,"endTime":3666.75,"body":"by forced labor perhaps,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3666.75,"endTime":3667.953,"body":"in China?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3669.15,"endTime":3673.89,"body":"So we should all be aware of the morality"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3673.89,"endTime":3676.143,"body":"of what we are doing."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3677.46,"endTime":3681.57,"body":"And a good example of this"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3677.46,"endTime":3681.57,"body":"contested heritage point"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3681.57,"endTime":3682.427,"body":"I was talking about"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3682.427,"endTime":3686.11,"body":"is the memorial of Rustat"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3688.38,"endTime":3692.13,"body":"in Jesus College Chapel in Cambridge,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3692.13,"endTime":3693.243,"body":"a slave trader."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3694.44,"endTime":3698.07,"body":"There, the Church court"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3694.44,"endTime":3698.07,"body":"decided to retain the statue,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3698.07,"endTime":3699.36,"body":"it's by Grinling Gibbons,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3699.36,"endTime":3702.3,"body":"it's a very major work of art,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3702.3,"endTime":3704.82,"body":"but the reason, the judge"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3702.3,"endTime":3704.82,"body":"said, for retaining it"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3704.82,"endTime":3705.84,"body":"was that it should be used"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3705.84,"endTime":3707.76,"body":"to make students reflect"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3707.76,"endTime":3710.94,"body":"upon the morality of their own behavior,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3710.94,"endTime":3712.68,"body":"rather than taking down something,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3712.68,"endTime":3716.16,"body":"to use this display in the chapel to say,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3716.16,"endTime":3719.307,"body":"where did your trainers come from,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3719.307,"endTime":3721.35,"body":"where did your iPhone come from?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3721.35,"endTime":3723.3,"body":"So I think what we should be asking"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3723.3,"endTime":3726.09,"body":"is what people at this time were asking,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3726.09,"endTime":3728.513,"body":"what is the nature of legitimate trade,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3728.513,"endTime":3731.97,"body":"what is the nature of forced labor?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3731.97,"endTime":3734.43,"body":"Abolitionists wanted people to buy goods"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3734.43,"endTime":3738.36,"body":"which were produced in fair ways."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3738.36,"endTime":3740.25,"body":"Of course, the problem"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3738.36,"endTime":3740.25,"body":"there, as I pointed out,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3740.25,"endTime":3742.35,"body":"is what they consider"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3740.25,"endTime":3742.35,"body":"to be legitimate trade,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3742.35,"endTime":3743.37,"body":"to use their phrase,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3743.37,"endTime":3747.15,"body":"could also be goods"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3743.37,"endTime":3747.15,"body":"produced by coerced labor"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3747.15,"endTime":3751.14,"body":"in William Lever's"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3747.15,"endTime":3751.14,"body":"plantations in West Africa."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3751.14,"endTime":3753.09,"body":"So we should always be"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3751.14,"endTime":3753.09,"body":"thinking about this,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3753.09,"endTime":3755.943,"body":"not just attacking the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3753.09,"endTime":3755.943,"body":"past for what they did,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3757.59,"endTime":3759.93,"body":"we should contemplate, reflect upon,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3759.93,"endTime":3761.013,"body":"but also what we do."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3762.96,"endTime":3764.07,"body":"- One more question here,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3764.07,"endTime":3765.814,"body":"we've just got time, I"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3764.07,"endTime":3765.814,"body":"think, for your question,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3765.814,"endTime":3767.361,"body":"and then we must stop."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3767.361,"endTime":3768.194,"body":"- [Questioner] Thank you."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3768.194,"endTime":3769.41,"body":"I had a question,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3769.41,"endTime":3770.88,"body":"so I found it really interesting"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3770.88,"endTime":3774.63,"body":"how a lot of those people who owned slaves"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3774.63,"endTime":3776.61,"body":"then put it into estates and land,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3776.61,"endTime":3778.5,"body":"and essentially power."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3778.5,"endTime":3780.42,"body":"How much do you think slavery"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3780.42,"endTime":3783.142,"body":"has influenced the wealth and power"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3783.142,"endTime":3784.363,"body":"of people that we have today,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3784.363,"endTime":3786.813,"body":"especially the Tories that you?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3787.93,"endTime":3791.43,"body":"- I wouldn't possibly make"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3787.93,"endTime":3791.43,"body":"a party political comment,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3791.43,"endTime":3792.263,"body":"now would I."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3793.65,"endTime":3797.16,"body":"It is a very interesting area."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3797.16,"endTime":3799.41,"body":"You may notice that,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3799.41,"endTime":3802.95,"body":"I think it was in \"The"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3799.41,"endTime":3802.95,"body":"Observer\" on Sunday,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3802.95,"endTime":3807.24,"body":"the Trevelyan family has"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3802.95,"endTime":3807.24,"body":"apologized for slavery,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3807.24,"endTime":3811.86,"body":"they were horrified to discover"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3807.24,"endTime":3811.86,"body":"that they owned slaves."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3811.86,"endTime":3815.1,"body":"You only have to look it"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3811.86,"endTime":3815.1,"body":"up in this slave database"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3815.1,"endTime":3816.093,"body":"that I referred to."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3816.96,"endTime":3819.153,"body":"They were leading Liberals at the time."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3820.05,"endTime":3824.46,"body":"John Gladstone's son was William Gladstone"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3824.46,"endTime":3826.143,"body":"great hero of Liberals,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3828.39,"endTime":3829.74,"body":"should his statue be taken down"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3829.74,"endTime":3831.81,"body":"because he was a slave owner?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3831.81,"endTime":3833.67,"body":"Well, I think what one might say there"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3833.67,"endTime":3838.17,"body":"is that he himself realized later in life"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3838.17,"endTime":3840.39,"body":"that he was wrong, actually, in 1833"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3840.39,"endTime":3845.39,"body":"to stand up and attack the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3840.39,"endTime":3845.39,"body":"bill to abolish slavery."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3848.34,"endTime":3851.64,"body":"So I think that there's"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3848.34,"endTime":3851.64,"body":"interesting questions here"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3851.64,"endTime":3855.57,"body":"about where fortunes come from."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3855.57,"endTime":3859.278,"body":"The Lascelleses have"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3855.57,"endTime":3859.278,"body":"apologized also for slavery."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3859.278,"endTime":3861.963,"body":"Is apologizing enough?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3862.98,"endTime":3865.56,"body":"The Church of England"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3862.98,"endTime":3865.56,"body":"has just had a report"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3865.56,"endTime":3868.11,"body":"on its involvement in slavery."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3868.11,"endTime":3870.87,"body":"They've tried to calculate"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3868.11,"endTime":3870.87,"body":"how much that was worth,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3870.87,"endTime":3873.63,"body":"and they're giving back 10 million pounds."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3873.63,"endTime":3874.463,"body":"But you think,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3874.463,"endTime":3876.45,"body":"10 million pounds, is that enough?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3876.45,"endTime":3878.1,"body":"To whom does one give it?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3878.1,"endTime":3880.005,"body":"So you have Hilary Beckles,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3880.005,"endTime":3881.124,"body":"the great historian"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3881.124,"endTime":3884.1,"body":"and vice-chancellor of the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3881.124,"endTime":3884.1,"body":"University of the West Indies,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3884.1,"endTime":3885.33,"body":"I think he's arguing more,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3885.33,"endTime":3888.51,"body":"you can't find out the individuals"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3885.33,"endTime":3888.51,"body":"who should be compensated"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3888.51,"endTime":3890.52,"body":"by these people you talk about,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3890.52,"endTime":3892.02,"body":"but you should perhaps think"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3892.02,"endTime":3896.103,"body":"why are certain societies"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3892.02,"endTime":3896.103,"body":"in the Caribbean now poor?"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3897.21,"endTime":3898.893,"body":"It might be because of the way"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3898.893,"endTime":3901.68,"body":"that this brutality was carried on,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3901.68,"endTime":3904.56,"body":"and it goes on after the"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3901.68,"endTime":3904.56,"body":"abolition of slavery,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3904.56,"endTime":3908.373,"body":"which I'll be talking about"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3904.56,"endTime":3908.373,"body":"in my next lecture, plug."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3909.81,"endTime":3912.63,"body":"Perhaps the money should"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3909.81,"endTime":3912.63,"body":"go into healthcare"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3912.63,"endTime":3914.65,"body":"and into primary education"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3916.14,"endTime":3918.63,"body":"to provide some sort of"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3916.14,"endTime":3918.63,"body":"compensation in that."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3918.63,"endTime":3920.82,"body":"So I think that if our politicians,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3920.82,"endTime":3923.07,"body":"some of whom might have"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3920.82,"endTime":3923.07,"body":"derived their money"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3923.07,"endTime":3925.62,"body":"from these enterprises,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3925.62,"endTime":3926.85,"body":"and the Church of England,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3926.85,"endTime":3929.46,"body":"and Cambridge University"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3926.85,"endTime":3929.46,"body":"and Oxford University,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3929.46,"endTime":3933.483,"body":"should reflect upon this"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3929.46,"endTime":3933.483,"body":"and think it through."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3934.32,"endTime":3936.9,"body":"- Well, I think what we've"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3934.32,"endTime":3936.9,"body":"heard tonight, as usual,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3936.9,"endTime":3938.67,"body":"is a triumphant presentation,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3938.67,"endTime":3939.54,"body":"thank you very much, Martin,"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3939.54,"endTime":3941.88,"body":"but also a real stimulus"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3941.88,"endTime":3945.51,"body":"to the importance of education in general"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3945.51,"endTime":3948.39,"body":"for all of us to behave"},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3945.51,"endTime":3948.39,"body":"better in our lives."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3948.39,"endTime":3950.544,"body":"Thank you very much indeed, Martin."},{"speaker":"all of us in the hall agree","startTime":3950.544,"endTime":3953.544,"body":"(audience applauds)"}]}