{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.833,"body":"(screen wooshing)"},{"startTime":4.98,"endTime":8.343,"body":"- Does the adversarial"},{"startTime":4.98,"endTime":8.343,"body":"system serve us well?"},{"startTime":9.78,"endTime":11.46,"body":"That's what I'm going to be looking at"},{"startTime":11.46,"endTime":12.633,"body":"this evening with you."},{"startTime":14.67,"endTime":16.713,"body":"So what is the adversarial system?"},{"startTime":17.58,"endTime":20.85,"body":"Well, it's a model of justice"},{"startTime":20.85,"endTime":22.59,"body":"that is widely used"},{"startTime":22.59,"endTime":25.143,"body":"in common law jurisdictions"},{"startTime":22.59,"endTime":25.143,"body":"around the world."},{"startTime":26.76,"endTime":31.02,"body":"In theory, under this system"},{"startTime":26.76,"endTime":31.02,"body":"you have two opposing sides"},{"startTime":31.02,"endTime":34.74,"body":"represented by lawyers"},{"startTime":31.02,"endTime":34.74,"body":"presenting their cases"},{"startTime":34.74,"endTime":37.62,"body":"to an impartial judge or jury,"},{"startTime":37.62,"endTime":41.04,"body":"who then decides the outcome of the case"},{"startTime":41.04,"endTime":43.173,"body":"based on the evidence presented."},{"startTime":45.45,"endTime":49.29,"body":"The system is often presented"},{"startTime":45.45,"endTime":49.29,"body":"as a way of ensuring"},{"startTime":49.29,"endTime":53.61,"body":"that both sides are able"},{"startTime":49.29,"endTime":53.61,"body":"to vigorously advocate"},{"startTime":53.61,"endTime":54.6,"body":"for their positions,"},{"startTime":54.6,"endTime":57.3,"body":"and the truth is ultimately revealed"},{"startTime":57.3,"endTime":59.88,"body":"through the adversarial process."},{"startTime":59.88,"endTime":64.32,"body":"However, as you will hear critics argue"},{"startTime":64.32,"endTime":68.31,"body":"that the adversarial system can be flawed"},{"startTime":68.31,"endTime":72.36,"body":"and that it may not"},{"startTime":68.31,"endTime":72.36,"body":"always promote justice."},{"startTime":72.36,"endTime":74.19,"body":"In this lecture,"},{"startTime":74.19,"endTime":75.63,"body":"we will explore the question"},{"startTime":75.63,"endTime":80.61,"body":"of whether the adversarial"},{"startTime":75.63,"endTime":80.61,"body":"system really promotes justice,"},{"startTime":80.61,"endTime":83.973,"body":"and if not, whose interest does it serve?"},{"startTime":85.2,"endTime":86.64,"body":"In England and Wales,"},{"startTime":86.64,"endTime":91.29,"body":"we have a predominantly"},{"startTime":86.64,"endTime":91.29,"body":"adversarial system of justice."},{"startTime":91.29,"endTime":94.02,"body":"All criminal and civil trials are based"},{"startTime":94.02,"endTime":96.213,"body":"on the adversarial system,"},{"startTime":97.11,"endTime":100.83,"body":"and the same is true in"},{"startTime":97.11,"endTime":100.83,"body":"other common law countries"},{"startTime":100.83,"endTime":102.81,"body":"whose legal systems are,"},{"startTime":102.81,"endTime":106.803,"body":"to a greater or lesser"},{"startTime":102.81,"endTime":106.803,"body":"extent, derived from ours."},{"startTime":107.82,"endTime":110.7,"body":"In describing the essential elements"},{"startTime":110.7,"endTime":113.103,"body":"of the English adversarial system,"},{"startTime":113.97,"endTime":118.56,"body":"I can't improve on the"},{"startTime":113.97,"endTime":118.56,"body":"words of Lord Denning"},{"startTime":118.56,"endTime":121.443,"body":"in Jones against National Coal Board."},{"startTime":122.34,"endTime":126.187,"body":"Quote, \"In the system of trial,"},{"startTime":126.187,"endTime":129.337,"body":"\"which we have evolved in this country,"},{"startTime":129.337,"endTime":132.367,"body":"\"the judge sits to hear"},{"startTime":129.337,"endTime":132.367,"body":"and determine the issues"},{"startTime":132.367,"endTime":134.107,"body":"\"raised by the parties."},{"startTime":134.107,"endTime":137.257,"body":"\"Not to conduct an"},{"startTime":134.107,"endTime":137.257,"body":"investigation or examination"},{"startTime":137.257,"endTime":140.767,"body":"\"on behalf of society at large."},{"startTime":140.767,"endTime":144.127,"body":"\"As happens, we believe in some juris"},{"startTime":144.127,"endTime":146.193,"body":"\"in some foreign countries."},{"startTime":147.127,"endTime":148.717,"body":"\"Even in England, however,"},{"startTime":148.717,"endTime":152.467,"body":"\"a judge is not a mere umpire"},{"startTime":148.717,"endTime":152.467,"body":"to answer the question,"},{"startTime":152.467,"endTime":153.753,"body":"\"how's that?"},{"startTime":154.597,"endTime":157.327,"body":"\"His object, above all,"},{"startTime":154.597,"endTime":157.327,"body":"is to find out the truth"},{"startTime":157.327,"endTime":160.507,"body":"\"and to do justice according to law."},{"startTime":160.507,"endTime":162.487,"body":"\"And in the daily pursuit of it,"},{"startTime":162.487,"endTime":166.957,"body":"\"the advocate plays an"},{"startTime":162.487,"endTime":166.957,"body":"honorable and necessary role"},{"startTime":166.957,"endTime":171.607,"body":"\"that was it not Lord Chancellor Eldon"},{"startTime":171.607,"endTime":174.113,"body":"\"who said in a notable passage that"},{"startTime":174.113,"endTime":177.817,"body":"\"'truth is best discovered"},{"startTime":174.113,"endTime":177.817,"body":"by powerful statements"},{"startTime":177.817,"endTime":180.217,"body":"\"'on both sides of the question'?"},{"startTime":180.217,"endTime":183.727,"body":"\"And the Master of the Rolls Lord Green"},{"startTime":183.727,"endTime":187.387,"body":"\"who explained that 'justice"},{"startTime":183.727,"endTime":187.387,"body":"is best done by judge,"},{"startTime":187.387,"endTime":190.927,"body":"\"'who holds a balance between"},{"startTime":187.387,"endTime":190.927,"body":"the contending parties"},{"startTime":190.927,"endTime":195.927,"body":"\"'without himself takin'"},{"startTime":190.927,"endTime":195.927,"body":"part in the dispute'?"},{"startTime":195.987,"endTime":198.997,"body":"\"'If a judge,' said, Lord Green,"},{"startTime":198.997,"endTime":203.257,"body":"\"'should himself conduct"},{"startTime":198.997,"endTime":203.257,"body":"examination of witnesses,\""},{"startTime":203.257,"endTime":207.007,"body":"\"quote, 'He so to speak"},{"startTime":203.257,"endTime":207.007,"body":"descends into the arena"},{"startTime":207.007,"endTime":209.197,"body":"\"'and is liable to have his vision"},{"startTime":209.197,"endTime":212.007,"body":"\"'clouded by the dust of conflict.'"},{"startTime":213.337,"endTime":217.057,"body":"\"Yes, he must keep his vision unclouded."},{"startTime":217.057,"endTime":222.057,"body":"\"It is all very well to"},{"startTime":217.057,"endTime":222.057,"body":"point out justice is blind,"},{"startTime":223.387,"endTime":228.187,"body":"\"but she does better without"},{"startTime":223.387,"endTime":228.187,"body":"a bandage around her eyes."},{"startTime":228.187,"endTime":233.187,"body":"\"Should she be blind, indeed,"},{"startTime":228.187,"endTime":233.187,"body":"to favor or prejudice,"},{"startTime":233.557,"endTime":237.13,"body":"\"but clear to see which way the truth lies"},{"startTime":239.407,"endTime":242.017,"body":"\"and the less dust there"},{"startTime":239.407,"endTime":242.017,"body":"is about the better."},{"startTime":242.017,"endTime":244.717,"body":"\"Let the advocates, one after the other,"},{"startTime":244.717,"endTime":247.507,"body":"\"put the weights into the scales,"},{"startTime":247.507,"endTime":251.497,"body":"\"the nicely calculated less or more."},{"startTime":251.497,"endTime":254.287,"body":"\"But the judge at the end decides"},{"startTime":254.287,"endTime":256.687,"body":"\"which way the balance tilts"},{"startTime":256.687,"endTime":258.787,"body":"\"be ever so slightly."},{"startTime":258.787,"endTime":261.547,"body":"\"So firmly is all of this"},{"startTime":258.787,"endTime":261.547,"body":"established in our law"},{"startTime":261.547,"endTime":265.065,"body":"\"that the judge is not"},{"startTime":261.547,"endTime":265.065,"body":"allowed in the civil dispute"},{"startTime":265.065,"endTime":266.497,"body":"\"to call witnesses whom he thinks"},{"startTime":266.497,"endTime":269.137,"body":"\"might throw some light on the facts."},{"startTime":269.137,"endTime":273.547,"body":"\"He must rest content with"},{"startTime":269.137,"endTime":273.547,"body":"witnesses called by the parties."},{"startTime":273.547,"endTime":276.877,"body":"\"So, also it is for the advocates,"},{"startTime":276.877,"endTime":279.757,"body":"\"each in turn, to examine the witnesses"},{"startTime":279.757,"endTime":282.577,"body":"\"and not for the judge"},{"startTime":279.757,"endTime":282.577,"body":"to take it upon himself,"},{"startTime":282.577,"endTime":287.577,"body":"\"less by doing so he appears"},{"startTime":282.577,"endTime":287.577,"body":"to favor one side or the other."},{"startTime":288.967,"endTime":292.837,"body":"\"Especially, and it is for the advocate"},{"startTime":292.837,"endTime":297.247,"body":"\"to state his case as firmly"},{"startTime":292.837,"endTime":297.247,"body":"and strongly as he can"},{"startTime":297.247,"endTime":299.857,"body":"\"without undue interruption,"},{"startTime":299.857,"endTime":304.2,"body":"\"lest the sequence of"},{"startTime":299.857,"endTime":304.2,"body":"his argument be lost.\""},{"startTime":304.2,"endTime":306.18,"body":"End of quote."},{"startTime":306.18,"endTime":309.21,"body":"we can identify certain key features"},{"startTime":309.21,"endTime":314.07,"body":"which characterize English"},{"startTime":309.21,"endTime":314.07,"body":"adversarial system of justice."},{"startTime":314.07,"endTime":318.03,"body":"Firstly, as we've just"},{"startTime":314.07,"endTime":318.03,"body":"heard from Lord Denning,"},{"startTime":318.03,"endTime":323.03,"body":"it's for the parties to decide"},{"startTime":318.03,"endTime":323.03,"body":"which witnesses they call,"},{"startTime":323.94,"endTime":326.31,"body":"how to present their cases."},{"startTime":326.31,"endTime":329.46,"body":"The judge is meant to"},{"startTime":326.31,"endTime":329.46,"body":"be a neutral arbiter."},{"startTime":329.46,"endTime":333.18,"body":"Although judges can and do"},{"startTime":329.46,"endTime":333.18,"body":"intervene during the argument"},{"startTime":333.18,"endTime":335.4,"body":"and ask questions of witnesses,"},{"startTime":335.4,"endTime":338.01,"body":"it's considered inappropriate for a judge"},{"startTime":338.01,"endTime":342.273,"body":"to intervene too much and to"},{"startTime":338.01,"endTime":342.273,"body":"assume the role of an advocate."},{"startTime":343.23,"endTime":345.66,"body":"Second, a lot of emphasis"},{"startTime":345.66,"endTime":348.6,"body":"is traditionally placed on oral evidence."},{"startTime":348.6,"endTime":350.79,"body":"Parties who rely on witness"},{"startTime":350.79,"endTime":352.89,"body":"are generally expected to call them"},{"startTime":352.89,"endTime":355.14,"body":"to give a oral evidence in court,"},{"startTime":355.14,"endTime":357.15,"body":"and opposing counsel"},{"startTime":357.15,"endTime":360.69,"body":"has the right to"},{"startTime":357.15,"endTime":360.69,"body":"cross-examine the witness."},{"startTime":360.69,"endTime":365.69,"body":"Cross-examination skills"},{"startTime":360.69,"endTime":365.69,"body":"by a skilled advocate"},{"startTime":366.3,"endTime":368.49,"body":"is seen as both an opportunity"},{"startTime":368.49,"endTime":371.34,"body":"for the witness to answer"},{"startTime":368.49,"endTime":371.34,"body":"criticisms of the evidence"},{"startTime":371.34,"endTime":375.42,"body":"and as a vital tool in"},{"startTime":371.34,"endTime":375.42,"body":"getting at the truth."},{"startTime":375.42,"endTime":379.59,"body":"Third, there are technical"},{"startTime":375.42,"endTime":379.59,"body":"rules of evidence."},{"startTime":379.59,"endTime":382.02,"body":"Just because evidence is relevant"},{"startTime":382.02,"endTime":386.7,"body":"doesn't necessarily mean it is admissible."},{"startTime":386.7,"endTime":389.19,"body":"Nowadays the rules of"},{"startTime":386.7,"endTime":389.19,"body":"evidence in civil cases"},{"startTime":389.19,"endTime":391.5,"body":"have been significantly relaxed,"},{"startTime":391.5,"endTime":393.72,"body":"but in criminal cases"},{"startTime":391.5,"endTime":393.72,"body":"the rules of evidence"},{"startTime":393.72,"endTime":396.87,"body":"continue to play an important role."},{"startTime":396.87,"endTime":401.87,"body":"Fourth, the system, at least in theory,"},{"startTime":402.15,"endTime":404.85,"body":"strives for equality of arms."},{"startTime":404.85,"endTime":407.82,"body":"The prosecution and the"},{"startTime":404.85,"endTime":407.82,"body":"defense and criminal case"},{"startTime":407.82,"endTime":410.7,"body":"or the claimant and"},{"startTime":407.82,"endTime":410.7,"body":"defendant in civil case"},{"startTime":410.7,"endTime":414.93,"body":"are in theory supposed to"},{"startTime":410.7,"endTime":414.93,"body":"be on a level playing field."},{"startTime":414.93,"endTime":419.93,"body":"In reality, we all know that"},{"startTime":414.93,"endTime":419.93,"body":"this is not always the case,"},{"startTime":420.24,"endTime":425.01,"body":"especially when one party is"},{"startTime":420.24,"endTime":425.01,"body":"represented by skilled lawyers"},{"startTime":425.01,"endTime":427.113,"body":"and the other party's unrepresented."},{"startTime":428.07,"endTime":432.69,"body":"But equality of arms is the"},{"startTime":428.07,"endTime":432.69,"body":"theoretical underpinning"},{"startTime":432.69,"endTime":437.69,"body":"of our system, even if it"},{"startTime":432.69,"endTime":437.69,"body":"is sometimes more honored"},{"startTime":437.88,"endTime":441.75,"body":"in the breach than in observance."},{"startTime":441.75,"endTime":445.47,"body":"And fifth, what follows"},{"startTime":441.75,"endTime":445.47,"body":"from these principles"},{"startTime":445.47,"endTime":449.37,"body":"is that the adversarial system"},{"startTime":445.47,"endTime":449.37,"body":"places a lot of reliance"},{"startTime":449.37,"endTime":453.57,"body":"on the professional skills of lawyers."},{"startTime":453.57,"endTime":457.8,"body":"The adversarial system is, at its fairest,"},{"startTime":457.8,"endTime":462.3,"body":"when the lawyers on each"},{"startTime":457.8,"endTime":462.3,"body":"side are evenly matched."},{"startTime":462.3,"endTime":464.52,"body":"If a lawyer makes errors,"},{"startTime":464.52,"endTime":469.52,"body":"their opponent can, and often"},{"startTime":464.52,"endTime":469.52,"body":"does, exploit those errors."},{"startTime":473.19,"endTime":478.19,"body":"So what are the flaws of"},{"startTime":473.19,"endTime":478.19,"body":"the adversarial system?"},{"startTime":478.5,"endTime":481.08,"body":"Look, I want to cut straight to the chase"},{"startTime":481.08,"endTime":482.91,"body":"and look at some of the problems"},{"startTime":482.91,"endTime":486.333,"body":"that are said to be with"},{"startTime":482.91,"endTime":486.333,"body":"the adversarial system."},{"startTime":487.56,"endTime":490.05,"body":"You see, one of the main criticisms"},{"startTime":490.05,"endTime":493.05,"body":"is that the adversarial system"},{"startTime":493.05,"endTime":498.05,"body":"can be overly focused"},{"startTime":493.05,"endTime":498.05,"body":"on winnin' and losin'"},{"startTime":498.66,"endTime":503.66,"body":"rather than findin' the"},{"startTime":498.66,"endTime":503.66,"body":"truth and promoting justice."},{"startTime":504.18,"endTime":507.87,"body":"In an adversarial system"},{"startTime":504.18,"endTime":507.87,"body":"lawyers are often motivated"},{"startTime":507.87,"endTime":509.88,"body":"by a desire to win their cases,"},{"startTime":509.88,"endTime":514.59,"body":"rather than to uncover the"},{"startTime":509.88,"endTime":514.59,"body":"truth or achieve justice."},{"startTime":514.59,"endTime":516.57,"body":"This can lead to a situation where lawyers"},{"startTime":516.57,"endTime":520.29,"body":"are more concerned with scoring points"},{"startTime":520.29,"endTime":524.16,"body":"and attacking the credibility"},{"startTime":520.29,"endTime":524.16,"body":"of the opposing side"},{"startTime":524.16,"endTime":528.783,"body":"rather than with presenting"},{"startTime":524.16,"endTime":528.783,"body":"a fair and balanced case."},{"startTime":530.04,"endTime":532.23,"body":"Another problem with"},{"startTime":530.04,"endTime":532.23,"body":"the adversarial system"},{"startTime":532.23,"endTime":535.74,"body":"is that it can be heavily skewed"},{"startTime":535.74,"endTime":538.2,"body":"towards those who have resources"},{"startTime":538.2,"endTime":542.04,"body":"to mount a vigorous"},{"startTime":538.2,"endTime":542.04,"body":"defense or prosecution."},{"startTime":542.04,"endTime":544.08,"body":"In an adversarial system,"},{"startTime":544.08,"endTime":547.14,"body":"the outcome of the case"},{"startTime":544.08,"endTime":547.14,"body":"can be often determined"},{"startTime":547.14,"endTime":551.34,"body":"by the quality of legal representation"},{"startTime":551.34,"endTime":554.103,"body":"that each side is able to secure."},{"startTime":554.97,"endTime":558.69,"body":"And this can result in situations where"},{"startTime":558.69,"endTime":561.0,"body":"wealthy individuals or corporations"},{"startTime":561.0,"endTime":563.79,"body":"are able to hire the best lawyers,"},{"startTime":563.79,"endTime":566.76,"body":"and thus have an unfair advantage"},{"startTime":566.76,"endTime":570.273,"body":"over less affluent individuals or groups."},{"startTime":571.5,"endTime":575.13,"body":"A further criticism of the"},{"startTime":571.5,"endTime":575.13,"body":"adversarial system is that"},{"startTime":575.13,"endTime":578.945,"body":"it can be adversarial to"},{"startTime":575.13,"endTime":578.945,"body":"the point of being hostile"},{"startTime":578.945,"endTime":581.52,"body":"and confrontational,"},{"startTime":581.52,"endTime":583.92,"body":"and this can result in situations"},{"startTime":583.92,"endTime":586.593,"body":"where witnesses and"},{"startTime":583.92,"endTime":586.593,"body":"victims are poorly treated."},{"startTime":588.81,"endTime":592.39,"body":"And this can be particularly"},{"startTime":588.81,"endTime":592.39,"body":"true in cases involving"},{"startTime":593.34,"endTime":595.41,"body":"allegations of sexual assault,"},{"startTime":595.41,"endTime":598.44,"body":"domestic violence, child abuse,"},{"startTime":598.44,"endTime":601.56,"body":"where victims may be"},{"startTime":598.44,"endTime":601.56,"body":"reluctant to come forward"},{"startTime":601.56,"endTime":605.943,"body":"or may be subjected to"},{"startTime":601.56,"endTime":605.943,"body":"aggressive cross-examination."},{"startTime":610.44,"endTime":613.383,"body":"So, given the flaws,"},{"startTime":614.31,"endTime":619.143,"body":"whose interests does the"},{"startTime":614.31,"endTime":619.143,"body":"adversarial system serve?"},{"startTime":620.58,"endTime":623.73,"body":"It's worth askin' that question."},{"startTime":623.73,"endTime":626.25,"body":"Critics argue that the adversarial system"},{"startTime":626.25,"endTime":629.1,"body":"primarily serves the interests of lawyers"},{"startTime":629.1,"endTime":630.93,"body":"and the legal profession rather than"},{"startTime":630.93,"endTime":634.953,"body":"the interests of justice"},{"startTime":630.93,"endTime":634.953,"body":"or the wider community."},{"startTime":636.69,"endTime":638.4,"body":"In an adversarial system,"},{"startTime":638.4,"endTime":642.24,"body":"lawyers are often able to charge high fees"},{"startTime":642.24,"endTime":643.89,"body":"for their services,"},{"startTime":643.89,"endTime":645.45,"body":"which can make the legal system"},{"startTime":645.45,"endTime":649.29,"body":"prohibitively expensive for many people,"},{"startTime":649.29,"endTime":652.32,"body":"and this can result in"},{"startTime":649.29,"endTime":652.32,"body":"situations where justice"},{"startTime":652.32,"endTime":653.52,"body":"is not available to all,"},{"startTime":654.39,"endTime":656.643,"body":"but only to those who can afford it."},{"startTime":657.66,"endTime":660.48,"body":"In addition, the adversarial system"},{"startTime":660.48,"endTime":662.49,"body":"can be seen as serving"},{"startTime":660.48,"endTime":662.49,"body":"the interests of those"},{"startTime":662.49,"endTime":665.043,"body":"who benefit from the status quo."},{"startTime":665.91,"endTime":667.92,"body":"In many cases, the adversarial system"},{"startTime":667.92,"endTime":671.04,"body":"is used to protect the"},{"startTime":667.92,"endTime":671.04,"body":"interests of large corporations"},{"startTime":671.04,"endTime":673.59,"body":"or wealthy individuals"},{"startTime":673.59,"endTime":675.69,"body":"who may be able to use their resources"},{"startTime":675.69,"endTime":679.77,"body":"to defend themselves"},{"startTime":675.69,"endTime":679.77,"body":"against legal challenges."},{"startTime":679.77,"endTime":684.15,"body":"And this results in situations"},{"startTime":679.77,"endTime":684.15,"body":"where powerful interests"},{"startTime":684.15,"endTime":689.15,"body":"are able to use the legal"},{"startTime":684.15,"endTime":689.15,"body":"system to avoid accountability"},{"startTime":689.31,"endTime":693.093,"body":"or to maintain their"},{"startTime":689.31,"endTime":693.093,"body":"dominance over others."},{"startTime":697.23,"endTime":701.523,"body":"So what are the alternatives?"},{"startTime":703.38,"endTime":706.11,"body":"Traditionally, the adversarial system"},{"startTime":706.11,"endTime":709.35,"body":"is usually contrasted with"},{"startTime":706.11,"endTime":709.35,"body":"the inquisitorial system,"},{"startTime":709.35,"endTime":712.854,"body":"in which judges are responsible"},{"startTime":709.35,"endTime":712.854,"body":"for investigatin' cases,"},{"startTime":712.854,"endTime":715.713,"body":"callin' witnesses, gatherin' evidence."},{"startTime":716.67,"endTime":721.67,"body":"In England and Wales, we do"},{"startTime":716.67,"endTime":721.67,"body":"use an inquisitorial system"},{"startTime":722.52,"endTime":724.05,"body":"for certain proceedings."},{"startTime":724.05,"endTime":727.47,"body":"The best known example"},{"startTime":724.05,"endTime":727.47,"body":"is a coroner's inquest."},{"startTime":727.47,"endTime":729.45,"body":"We looked at the coroner's"},{"startTime":727.47,"endTime":729.45,"body":"inquest in detail"},{"startTime":729.45,"endTime":733.59,"body":"in a previous lecture"},{"startTime":729.45,"endTime":733.59,"body":"in a previous series,"},{"startTime":733.59,"endTime":736.77,"body":"but in brief, coroners are responsible"},{"startTime":736.77,"endTime":739.11,"body":"for investigatin' certain deaths,"},{"startTime":739.11,"endTime":742.74,"body":"such as those where the"},{"startTime":739.11,"endTime":742.74,"body":"cause of death is unknown"},{"startTime":742.74,"endTime":747.45,"body":"or where the deceased died in"},{"startTime":742.74,"endTime":747.45,"body":"custody or state detention."},{"startTime":747.45,"endTime":751.2,"body":"In an inquest, there are"},{"startTime":747.45,"endTime":751.2,"body":"officially no parties,"},{"startTime":751.2,"endTime":753.24,"body":"no one wins, no one loses,"},{"startTime":753.24,"endTime":757.05,"body":"and the goal is to find"},{"startTime":753.24,"endTime":757.05,"body":"out the cause of the death."},{"startTime":757.05,"endTime":760.8,"body":"The coroner carries out"},{"startTime":757.05,"endTime":760.8,"body":"their own investigation,"},{"startTime":760.8,"endTime":763.44,"body":"gathers the evidence, and"},{"startTime":760.8,"endTime":763.44,"body":"decides which witnesses"},{"startTime":763.44,"endTime":765.15,"body":"to call at the inquest."},{"startTime":765.15,"endTime":770.1,"body":"Another similar example"},{"startTime":765.15,"endTime":770.1,"body":"of inquisitorial justice"},{"startTime":770.1,"endTime":772.113,"body":"is the public inquiry,"},{"startTime":773.73,"endTime":778.53,"body":"but as I've said, many times in the past,"},{"startTime":778.53,"endTime":780.72,"body":"even though inquest and inquiries"},{"startTime":780.72,"endTime":784.08,"body":"are formally inquisitorial processes,"},{"startTime":784.08,"endTime":787.533,"body":"they are often, in reality,"},{"startTime":784.08,"endTime":787.533,"body":"highly adversarial."},{"startTime":788.58,"endTime":790.53,"body":"The interested persons and their lawyers"},{"startTime":790.53,"endTime":794.31,"body":"will fight hard to secure"},{"startTime":790.53,"endTime":794.31,"body":"findings that they want."},{"startTime":794.31,"endTime":798.06,"body":"Whether a person is"},{"startTime":794.31,"endTime":798.06,"body":"represented or unrepresented"},{"startTime":798.06,"endTime":802.59,"body":"and how skilled and well"},{"startTime":798.06,"endTime":802.59,"body":"resourced their lawyers are"},{"startTime":802.59,"endTime":804.87,"body":"matters a great deal."},{"startTime":804.87,"endTime":807.54,"body":"The difference between an adversarial"},{"startTime":807.54,"endTime":812.54,"body":"and an inquisitorial system is"},{"startTime":807.54,"endTime":812.54,"body":"not a binary, but a spectrum."},{"startTime":813.72,"endTime":817.323,"body":"Many proceedings have"},{"startTime":813.72,"endTime":817.323,"body":"features of both systems."},{"startTime":818.25,"endTime":820.74,"body":"The same is true when we look at countries"},{"startTime":820.74,"endTime":823.53,"body":"outside the common law world."},{"startTime":823.53,"endTime":826.14,"body":"The most famous example"},{"startTime":823.53,"endTime":826.14,"body":"of an inquisitorial system"},{"startTime":826.14,"endTime":828.48,"body":"is the French criminal justice system"},{"startTime":828.48,"endTime":831.36,"body":"and the numerous other"},{"startTime":828.48,"endTime":831.36,"body":"criminal justice systems"},{"startTime":831.36,"endTime":834.9,"body":"around the world that are derived from it."},{"startTime":834.9,"endTime":837.48,"body":"The origins of the French system line"},{"startTime":837.48,"endTime":842.48,"body":"in Napoleon's 1808 Code"},{"startTime":837.48,"endTime":842.48,"body":"of Criminal Instruction."},{"startTime":844.05,"endTime":847.2,"body":"The paradigmatic feature of this tradition"},{"startTime":847.2,"endTime":849.9,"body":"is the investigating judge"},{"startTime":849.9,"endTime":853.68,"body":"who oversees the preliminary"},{"startTime":849.9,"endTime":853.68,"body":"investigation of the case"},{"startTime":853.68,"endTime":855.87,"body":"against the accused."},{"startTime":855.87,"endTime":858.66,"body":"However, in France, there"},{"startTime":855.87,"endTime":858.66,"body":"are only a small minority"},{"startTime":858.66,"endTime":860.52,"body":"of criminal investigations"},{"startTime":860.52,"endTime":864.51,"body":"are actually overseen by"},{"startTime":860.52,"endTime":864.51,"body":"an investigating judge."},{"startTime":864.51,"endTime":866.82,"body":"Most French criminal investigations"},{"startTime":866.82,"endTime":869.97,"body":"are instead overseen by prosecutors,"},{"startTime":869.97,"endTime":873.873,"body":"who, in the French system, are"},{"startTime":869.97,"endTime":873.873,"body":"also part of the judiciary."},{"startTime":874.92,"endTime":877.38,"body":"Some other systems that were originally"},{"startTime":877.38,"endTime":878.67,"body":"based on the French model"},{"startTime":878.67,"endTime":881.553,"body":"have abandoned the"},{"startTime":878.67,"endTime":881.553,"body":"investigating judge altogether."},{"startTime":882.693,"endTime":885.66,"body":"Conversely, it was John Spencer"},{"startTime":885.66,"endTime":887.88,"body":"who highlighted that the English system"},{"startTime":887.88,"endTime":892.77,"body":"also has adopted many features"},{"startTime":887.88,"endTime":892.77,"body":"over the past two centuries"},{"startTime":892.77,"endTime":895.833,"body":"that once would've been"},{"startTime":892.77,"endTime":895.833,"body":"regarded as inquisitorial."},{"startTime":897.398,"endTime":900.66,"body":"At the time when Napoleon"},{"startTime":897.398,"endTime":900.66,"body":"laid the foundations"},{"startTime":900.66,"endTime":903.42,"body":"of the French inquisitorial system,"},{"startTime":903.42,"endTime":905.37,"body":"England and Wales did not have"},{"startTime":905.37,"endTime":909.18,"body":"a professional police"},{"startTime":905.37,"endTime":909.18,"body":"force or prosecutors,"},{"startTime":909.18,"endTime":910.95,"body":"and most criminal cases were brought"},{"startTime":910.95,"endTime":915.36,"body":"by the complainant themselves"},{"startTime":910.95,"endTime":915.36,"body":"or their relatives."},{"startTime":915.36,"endTime":917.88,"body":"Professional policing was introduced"},{"startTime":917.88,"endTime":920.76,"body":"in all parts of England and"},{"startTime":917.88,"endTime":920.76,"body":"Wales in the mid 19th century,"},{"startTime":920.76,"endTime":923.85,"body":"and in 1879 the post"},{"startTime":923.85,"endTime":927.363,"body":"of the Director of Public"},{"startTime":923.85,"endTime":927.363,"body":"Prosecutions was created."},{"startTime":928.56,"endTime":932.52,"body":"In 1985 the Crown Prosecution"},{"startTime":928.56,"endTime":932.52,"body":"Service was created,"},{"startTime":932.52,"endTime":936.81,"body":"creating a full-time core"},{"startTime":932.52,"endTime":936.81,"body":"of professional prosecutors"},{"startTime":936.81,"endTime":938.103,"body":"for the first time."},{"startTime":939.3,"endTime":942.99,"body":"The Police and Criminal"},{"startTime":939.3,"endTime":942.99,"body":"Evidence Act in 1984"},{"startTime":942.99,"endTime":946.23,"body":"codified and extended"},{"startTime":942.99,"endTime":946.23,"body":"the powers of the police,"},{"startTime":946.23,"endTime":949.59,"body":"giving them power to detain suspects"},{"startTime":949.59,"endTime":952.14,"body":"at police stations for questioning,"},{"startTime":952.14,"endTime":955.44,"body":"and the traditional paradigm"},{"startTime":952.14,"endTime":955.44,"body":"institution of English law,"},{"startTime":955.44,"endTime":958.89,"body":"the jury trial, is now only used"},{"startTime":958.89,"endTime":963.243,"body":"in a small percentage"},{"startTime":958.89,"endTime":963.243,"body":"of all criminal cases."},{"startTime":964.65,"endTime":966.96,"body":"It's also the case that Article 6"},{"startTime":966.96,"endTime":969.36,"body":"of the European Convention"},{"startTime":966.96,"endTime":969.36,"body":"on Human Rights,"},{"startTime":969.36,"endTime":974.25,"body":"which prescribes the minimum"},{"startTime":969.36,"endTime":974.25,"body":"standards of a fair trial"},{"startTime":974.25,"endTime":976.53,"body":"has had an impact on both"},{"startTime":976.53,"endTime":981.3,"body":"inquisitorial and adversarial"},{"startTime":976.53,"endTime":981.3,"body":"systems in Europe."},{"startTime":981.3,"endTime":982.89,"body":"The court clearly accepts"},{"startTime":982.89,"endTime":985.56,"body":"that the inquisitorial"},{"startTime":982.89,"endTime":985.56,"body":"and adversarial systems"},{"startTime":985.56,"endTime":988.26,"body":"can coexist in Europe,"},{"startTime":988.26,"endTime":991.83,"body":"and that both can be"},{"startTime":988.26,"endTime":991.83,"body":"compliant with Article 6,"},{"startTime":991.83,"endTime":993.54,"body":"the right to a fair trial."},{"startTime":993.54,"endTime":996.66,"body":"However, there have been areas"},{"startTime":996.66,"endTime":999.18,"body":"in which Article 6 jurisprudence"},{"startTime":999.18,"endTime":1003.17,"body":"has required changes in"},{"startTime":999.18,"endTime":1003.17,"body":"inquisitorial systems."},{"startTime":1003.17,"endTime":1006.26,"body":"For example, the court has taken the view"},{"startTime":1006.26,"endTime":1009.14,"body":"that it is a breach of Article 6"},{"startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1012.92,"body":"for an investigatin'"},{"startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1012.92,"body":"judge to sit as a judge"},{"startTime":1012.92,"endTime":1015.32,"body":"in the same case."},{"startTime":1015.32,"endTime":1018.2,"body":"Similarly, although the court accepts"},{"startTime":1018.2,"endTime":1020.48,"body":"that whether to call a witness at a trial"},{"startTime":1020.48,"endTime":1022.88,"body":"is a matter for the domestic courts,"},{"startTime":1022.88,"endTime":1026.33,"body":"it has, on occasions, found a refusal"},{"startTime":1026.33,"endTime":1030.113,"body":"to call defense witnesses to be unfair."},{"startTime":1031.01,"endTime":1033.62,"body":"We can see, therefore, that the difference"},{"startTime":1033.62,"endTime":1038.0,"body":"between the adversarial and"},{"startTime":1033.62,"endTime":1038.0,"body":"the inquisitorial systems"},{"startTime":1038.0,"endTime":1042.02,"body":"is a spectrum, rather than a binary."},{"startTime":1042.02,"endTime":1045.14,"body":"Continental European inquisitorial systems"},{"startTime":1045.14,"endTime":1049.46,"body":"incorporate some elements"},{"startTime":1045.14,"endTime":1049.46,"body":"of adversarial justice"},{"startTime":1049.46,"endTime":1052.55,"body":"while our own system"},{"startTime":1049.46,"endTime":1052.55,"body":"incorporates some elements"},{"startTime":1052.55,"endTime":1056.6,"body":"that would once have been"},{"startTime":1052.55,"endTime":1056.6,"body":"regarded as inquisitorial."},{"startTime":1056.6,"endTime":1060.17,"body":"Nonetheless, there are still"},{"startTime":1056.6,"endTime":1060.17,"body":"significant differences"},{"startTime":1060.17,"endTime":1062.993,"body":"between the two types of system."},{"startTime":1065.36,"endTime":1067.51,"body":"So that's going to beg"},{"startTime":1065.36,"endTime":1067.51,"body":"the question, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1068.36,"endTime":1072.863,"body":"Which is better, adversarial"},{"startTime":1068.36,"endTime":1072.863,"body":"or inquisitorial?"},{"startTime":1074.75,"endTime":1077.963,"body":"Many people have strong"},{"startTime":1074.75,"endTime":1077.963,"body":"views on this question."},{"startTime":1078.92,"endTime":1081.86,"body":"The Australian judge, Ray Finklestein,"},{"startTime":1081.86,"endTime":1085.43,"body":"argues that the adversarial system"},{"startTime":1085.43,"endTime":1089.06,"body":"is bad at discovering the truth."},{"startTime":1089.06,"endTime":1093.237,"body":"He says, quote, \"The party's self-interest"},{"startTime":1093.237,"endTime":1095.58,"body":"\"does not aid the search for the truth"},{"startTime":1095.58,"endTime":1098.397,"body":"\"in a system where it's routine."},{"startTime":1098.397,"endTime":1101.877,"body":"\"One, for opposing"},{"startTime":1098.397,"endTime":1101.877,"body":"testimony to be discredited"},{"startTime":1101.877,"endTime":1105.687,"body":"\"regardless of whether it is true or not."},{"startTime":1105.687,"endTime":1110.397,"body":"\"Two, for the incompetence"},{"startTime":1105.687,"endTime":1110.397,"body":"of opposing counsel"},{"startTime":1110.397,"endTime":1112.167,"body":"\"to be exploited."},{"startTime":1112.167,"endTime":1116.607,"body":"\"Three, for material facts"},{"startTime":1112.167,"endTime":1116.607,"body":"to be omitted from pleadings"},{"startTime":1116.607,"endTime":1119.697,"body":"\"or withheld due to privilege."},{"startTime":1119.697,"endTime":1124.497,"body":"\"Four, for probative"},{"startTime":1119.697,"endTime":1124.497,"body":"evidence to be excluded."},{"startTime":1124.497,"endTime":1127.737,"body":"\"Or five, for counsel to indulge"},{"startTime":1127.737,"endTime":1132.237,"body":"\"in sophistry or rhetorical manipulation"},{"startTime":1132.237,"endTime":1136.697,"body":"\"of which the primary aim"},{"startTime":1132.237,"endTime":1136.697,"body":"is to obscure the truth.\""},{"startTime":1138.14,"endTime":1139.88,"body":"End of quote."},{"startTime":1139.88,"endTime":1143.57,"body":"Finkelstein's arguments"},{"startTime":1139.88,"endTime":1143.57,"body":"are focused on civil cases."},{"startTime":1143.57,"endTime":1145.76,"body":"He recommends a number of reforms."},{"startTime":1145.76,"endTime":1149.09,"body":"He calls for judges to"},{"startTime":1145.76,"endTime":1149.09,"body":"have a more active role,"},{"startTime":1149.09,"endTime":1151.34,"body":"including the power to call witnesses"},{"startTime":1151.34,"endTime":1154.61,"body":"where the interests of justice so require,"},{"startTime":1154.61,"endTime":1157.7,"body":"the ability to question"},{"startTime":1154.61,"endTime":1157.7,"body":"witnesses beyond their,"},{"startTime":1157.7,"endTime":1160.34,"body":"the present restrictive role,"},{"startTime":1160.34,"endTime":1164.0,"body":"and primary control over"},{"startTime":1160.34,"endTime":1164.0,"body":"the question of witnesses."},{"startTime":1164.0,"endTime":1166.85,"body":"He also calls for judges"},{"startTime":1164.0,"endTime":1166.85,"body":"to have the power,"},{"startTime":1166.85,"endTime":1171.29,"body":"in appropriate cases, to"},{"startTime":1166.85,"endTime":1171.29,"body":"appoint an independent examiner"},{"startTime":1171.29,"endTime":1175.25,"body":"to question witnesses before the trial."},{"startTime":1175.25,"endTime":1177.47,"body":"And he calls for the court"},{"startTime":1177.47,"endTime":1181.76,"body":"to control the appointment"},{"startTime":1177.47,"endTime":1181.76,"body":"of expert witnesses."},{"startTime":1181.76,"endTime":1186.76,"body":"However, it is in the"},{"startTime":1181.76,"endTime":1186.76,"body":"context of criminal cases"},{"startTime":1187.4,"endTime":1190.77,"body":"where the adversarial versus the"},{"startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.923,"body":"inquisitorial debate"},{"startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.923,"body":"tends to be most heated."},{"startTime":1196.94,"endTime":1200.12,"body":"Richard Lomax in his"},{"startTime":1196.94,"endTime":1200.12,"body":"report \"Reforming Justice\""},{"startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1204.02,"body":"for the charity Toynbee"},{"startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1204.02,"body":"Hall robustly argues"},{"startTime":1204.02,"endTime":1206.72,"body":"that the inquisitorial"},{"startTime":1204.02,"endTime":1206.72,"body":"system of criminal justice"},{"startTime":1206.72,"endTime":1209.39,"body":"is superior to the adversarial system."},{"startTime":1209.39,"endTime":1212.69,"body":"He argues that"},{"startTime":1209.39,"endTime":1212.69,"body":"significantly more resources"},{"startTime":1212.69,"endTime":1215.09,"body":"are expended on criminal defense"},{"startTime":1215.09,"endTime":1218.54,"body":"in English and Welsh adversarial systems"},{"startTime":1218.54,"endTime":1222.26,"body":"than in the continental"},{"startTime":1218.54,"endTime":1222.26,"body":"inquisitorial systems."},{"startTime":1222.26,"endTime":1227.26,"body":"He states that the cost of"},{"startTime":1222.26,"endTime":1227.26,"body":"legal aid in England and Wales"},{"startTime":1227.9,"endTime":1232.553,"body":"is about 15 times higher"},{"startTime":1227.9,"endTime":1232.553,"body":"than the European medium,"},{"startTime":1233.39,"endTime":1235.61,"body":"and that whereas the European medium"},{"startTime":1235.61,"endTime":1239.84,"body":"for the cost of the defense is about 25%"},{"startTime":1239.84,"endTime":1242.243,"body":"of the cost of the prosecution."},{"startTime":1243.23,"endTime":1247.73,"body":"In England and Wales"},{"startTime":1243.23,"endTime":1247.73,"body":"it's nearly 400% more."},{"startTime":1247.73,"endTime":1250.587,"body":"By contrast, he says, quote,"},{"startTime":1250.587,"endTime":1254.547,"body":"\"We spend significantly"},{"startTime":1250.587,"endTime":1254.547,"body":"less on police prosecutism"},{"startTime":1254.547,"endTime":1257.097,"body":"\"and on professional judges."},{"startTime":1257.097,"endTime":1259.617,"body":"\"Evidence gatherers, case, presenters,"},{"startTime":1259.617,"endTime":1262.527,"body":"\"and assessors of evidence"},{"startTime":1259.617,"endTime":1262.527,"body":"in comparative terms"},{"startTime":1262.527,"endTime":1265.564,"body":"\"are all starved of resources.\""},{"startTime":1265.564,"endTime":1268.49,"body":"He goes on to argue"},{"startTime":1265.564,"endTime":1268.49,"body":"that England and Wales,"},{"startTime":1268.49,"endTime":1270.29,"body":"and other common law systems,"},{"startTime":1270.29,"endTime":1274.61,"body":"tend to have higher rates"},{"startTime":1270.29,"endTime":1274.61,"body":"of imprisonment per capita"},{"startTime":1274.61,"endTime":1278.69,"body":"than European civil law systems."},{"startTime":1278.69,"endTime":1282.32,"body":"Lomax argues that inquisitorial trials"},{"startTime":1282.32,"endTime":1285.2,"body":"are capable of working much faster,"},{"startTime":1285.2,"endTime":1287.9,"body":"given rise to higher conviction rates,"},{"startTime":1287.9,"endTime":1289.34,"body":"higher public confidence,"},{"startTime":1289.34,"endTime":1291.86,"body":"and less probability of being distracted"},{"startTime":1291.86,"endTime":1293.963,"body":"by irrelevant considerations."},{"startTime":1295.19,"endTime":1296.153,"body":"Pausing there."},{"startTime":1297.47,"endTime":1299.96,"body":"You and I might wonder why Lomax"},{"startTime":1299.96,"endTime":1303.593,"body":"sees higher conviction"},{"startTime":1299.96,"endTime":1303.593,"body":"rates as a good thing."},{"startTime":1305.42,"endTime":1307.94,"body":"But Lomax addresses this in a footnote,"},{"startTime":1307.94,"endTime":1310.167,"body":"where he asserts, quote,"},{"startTime":1310.167,"endTime":1312.567,"body":"\"It would be an error to imagine"},{"startTime":1312.567,"endTime":1316.017,"body":"\"that continental courts are all biased."},{"startTime":1316.017,"endTime":1318.867,"body":"\"Their systems commence fewer weak cases"},{"startTime":1318.867,"endTime":1321.627,"body":"\"and allocate the necessary resources"},{"startTime":1321.627,"endTime":1324.8,"body":"\"to those that they prosecute.\""},{"startTime":1324.8,"endTime":1328.19,"body":"He goes on to argue that"},{"startTime":1324.8,"endTime":1328.19,"body":"the adversarial model"},{"startTime":1328.19,"endTime":1331.34,"body":"means a lower probability of"},{"startTime":1328.19,"endTime":1331.34,"body":"the truth being discovered,"},{"startTime":1331.34,"endTime":1334.88,"body":"meaning that there are greater prospects"},{"startTime":1334.88,"endTime":1338.22,"body":"of the innocent being wrongly convicted"},{"startTime":1339.35,"endTime":1343.31,"body":"and the guilty being wrongly acquitted."},{"startTime":1343.31,"endTime":1345.38,"body":"He argues that in order to maintain"},{"startTime":1345.38,"endTime":1347.96,"body":"the principles of deterrents,"},{"startTime":1347.96,"endTime":1351.5,"body":"adversarial systems have"},{"startTime":1347.96,"endTime":1351.5,"body":"to punish more severely,"},{"startTime":1351.5,"endTime":1353.9,"body":"which he argues is why these systems"},{"startTime":1353.9,"endTime":1357.833,"body":"tend to have higher prison populations."},{"startTime":1358.97,"endTime":1362.51,"body":"So what do we think of Lomax's argument?"},{"startTime":1362.51,"endTime":1366.89,"body":"Is he right when he says"},{"startTime":1362.51,"endTime":1366.89,"body":"that inquisitorial systems"},{"startTime":1366.89,"endTime":1369.233,"body":"are better at getting at the truth?"},{"startTime":1370.28,"endTime":1373.34,"body":"There are, perhaps,"},{"startTime":1370.28,"endTime":1373.34,"body":"reasons to be skeptical"},{"startTime":1373.34,"endTime":1375.98,"body":"about whether judicial supervision"},{"startTime":1375.98,"endTime":1379.49,"body":"of the investigation makes"},{"startTime":1375.98,"endTime":1379.49,"body":"the process any fairer."},{"startTime":1379.49,"endTime":1381.47,"body":"Jacqueline Hodgson,"},{"startTime":1381.47,"endTime":1383.84,"body":"an academic at the University of Warwick,"},{"startTime":1383.84,"endTime":1387.11,"body":"who has written extensively"},{"startTime":1383.84,"endTime":1387.11,"body":"on the differences"},{"startTime":1387.11,"endTime":1389.99,"body":"between the British and"},{"startTime":1387.11,"endTime":1389.99,"body":"French justice systems,"},{"startTime":1389.99,"endTime":1394.99,"body":"told the select committee on"},{"startTime":1389.99,"endTime":1394.99,"body":"European Union in 2005, quote,"},{"startTime":1395.967,"endTime":1399.207,"body":"\"My own empirical research"},{"startTime":1395.967,"endTime":1399.207,"body":"in this area suggests"},{"startTime":1399.207,"endTime":1402.087,"body":"\"that suspect in France"},{"startTime":1399.207,"endTime":1402.087,"body":"are just as vulnerable"},{"startTime":1402.087,"endTime":1406.07,"body":"\"to the hostility of"},{"startTime":1402.087,"endTime":1406.07,"body":"the judge environment..."},{"startTime":1406.07,"endTime":1409.737,"body":"Sorry, \"Of the police environment"},{"startTime":1406.07,"endTime":1409.737,"body":"as in England and Wales."},{"startTime":1409.737,"endTime":1412.49,"body":"\"Judicial supervision, in most instances,"},{"startTime":1412.49,"endTime":1416.277,"body":"is conducted by the prosecutor,"},{"startTime":1416.277,"endTime":1420.597,"body":"\"who also enjoys a judicial"},{"startTime":1416.277,"endTime":1420.597,"body":"status as a magistrar,"},{"startTime":1420.597,"endTime":1422.367,"body":"\"and exists as a form of"},{"startTime":1422.367,"endTime":1425.907,"body":"\"bureaucratic and retrospective review."},{"startTime":1425.907,"endTime":1428.607,"body":"\"The police are required"},{"startTime":1425.907,"endTime":1428.607,"body":"to inform the prosecutor"},{"startTime":1428.607,"endTime":1430.737,"body":"\"of a suspect's detention in custody,"},{"startTime":1430.737,"endTime":1433.223,"body":"\"and the file is later reviewed."},{"startTime":1434.097,"endTime":1437.3,"body":"\"The prosecutor remains in her office"},{"startTime":1437.3,"endTime":1439.22,"body":"and is responsible for supervisin'"},{"startTime":1439.22,"endTime":1442.37,"body":"tens of cases at any one time."},{"startTime":1442.37,"endTime":1444.5,"body":"And while this procedure"},{"startTime":1442.37,"endTime":1444.5,"body":"is able to weed out"},{"startTime":1444.5,"endTime":1447.08,"body":"obviously weak cases early on,"},{"startTime":1447.08,"endTime":1450.29,"body":"and to review the outcome"},{"startTime":1447.08,"endTime":1450.29,"body":"of investigations,"},{"startTime":1450.29,"endTime":1455.18,"body":"it provides no real guarantee"},{"startTime":1450.29,"endTime":1455.18,"body":"as to the reliability"},{"startTime":1455.18,"endTime":1457.37,"body":"of the evidence gathered."},{"startTime":1457.37,"endTime":1460.4,"body":"The process of investigation"},{"startTime":1457.37,"endTime":1460.4,"body":"and evidence gatherin'"},{"startTime":1460.4,"endTime":1462.713,"body":"is shielded from scrutiny."},{"startTime":1464.99,"endTime":1468.9,"body":"In the 2001 article in"},{"startTime":1464.99,"endTime":1468.9,"body":"which Hodgson reported"},{"startTime":1469.82,"endTime":1471.89,"body":"findings from an empirical study"},{"startTime":1471.89,"endTime":1473.57,"body":"of the French pretrial process,"},{"startTime":1473.57,"endTime":1477.2,"body":"she described how the French prosecutors,"},{"startTime":1477.2,"endTime":1479.93,"body":"who oversee the pretrial investigations,"},{"startTime":1479.93,"endTime":1484.58,"body":"were tolerant of aggressive"},{"startTime":1479.93,"endTime":1484.58,"body":"questionin' by police"},{"startTime":1484.58,"endTime":1487.52,"body":"to pressure suspects to confess."},{"startTime":1487.52,"endTime":1490.189,"body":"She described the general tolerance of"},{"startTime":1490.189,"endTime":1495.189,"body":"the kinds of pressure that"},{"startTime":1490.189,"endTime":1495.189,"body":"the police might need to exert"},{"startTime":1496.04,"endTime":1499.133,"body":"to make the suspect tell the truth."},{"startTime":1500.06,"endTime":1503.66,"body":"And the crime control"},{"startTime":1500.06,"endTime":1503.66,"body":"ideology of the prosecutor"},{"startTime":1503.66,"endTime":1508.523,"body":"means that in most instances"},{"startTime":1503.66,"endTime":1508.523,"body":"the truth is a confession."},{"startTime":1509.96,"endTime":1511.94,"body":"She described a lack of interest"},{"startTime":1511.94,"endTime":1515.84,"body":"in investigating whether the"},{"startTime":1511.94,"endTime":1515.84,"body":"police had abused suspects."},{"startTime":1515.84,"endTime":1517.827,"body":"Quote, \"In one area observed"},{"startTime":1517.827,"endTime":1519.507,"body":"\"there was concern that the suspects"},{"startTime":1519.507,"endTime":1524.507,"body":"\"were being brought to court"},{"startTime":1519.507,"endTime":1524.507,"body":"blood stained and untidy."},{"startTime":1524.547,"endTime":1526.407,"body":"\"The police were instructed"},{"startTime":1524.547,"endTime":1526.407,"body":"by the prosecutor"},{"startTime":1526.407,"endTime":1528.447,"body":"\"that this was not acceptable"},{"startTime":1528.447,"endTime":1533.187,"body":"\"and it did not look"},{"startTime":1528.447,"endTime":1533.187,"body":"good before the court."},{"startTime":1533.187,"endTime":1535.347,"body":"\"No inquiry was made, however,"},{"startTime":1535.347,"endTime":1540.347,"body":"\"into why suspects arrived"},{"startTime":1535.347,"endTime":1540.347,"body":"at court in such a state.\""},{"startTime":1541.31,"endTime":1542.72,"body":"End of quote."},{"startTime":1542.72,"endTime":1544.467,"body":"She went on to say that,"},{"startTime":1544.467,"endTime":1547.077,"body":"\"Even questioning, which might be classed"},{"startTime":1547.077,"endTime":1550.347,"body":"\"as overbearing or"},{"startTime":1547.077,"endTime":1550.347,"body":"oppressive by a British court"},{"startTime":1550.347,"endTime":1554.277,"body":"\"is considered acceptable,"},{"startTime":1550.347,"endTime":1554.277,"body":"and at times necessary,"},{"startTime":1554.277,"endTime":1557.117,"body":"\"to get at the truth.\""},{"startTime":1559.16,"endTime":1562.13,"body":"I acknowledge of course"},{"startTime":1559.16,"endTime":1562.13,"body":"that Hodgson's studies,"},{"startTime":1562.13,"endTime":1566.363,"body":"some two decades old, and"},{"startTime":1562.13,"endTime":1566.363,"body":"is specific to France,"},{"startTime":1567.38,"endTime":1571.4,"body":"inquisitorial judicial"},{"startTime":1567.38,"endTime":1571.4,"body":"systems are widely varied,"},{"startTime":1571.4,"endTime":1572.63,"body":"and the French system itself"},{"startTime":1572.63,"endTime":1575.06,"body":"has undergone significant reforms."},{"startTime":1575.06,"endTime":1578.18,"body":"So I'm not saying that Hodgson's study"},{"startTime":1578.18,"endTime":1581.69,"body":"is necessarily representative of how"},{"startTime":1581.69,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"all inquisitorial systems operate,"},{"startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1587.27,"body":"or even how the French"},{"startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1587.27,"body":"system operates today,"},{"startTime":1587.27,"endTime":1590.61,"body":"but the point is that judicial supervision"},{"startTime":1591.47,"endTime":1594.62,"body":"of the pretrial investigations"},{"startTime":1594.62,"endTime":1598.94,"body":"is not of itself a guarantee of justice."},{"startTime":1598.94,"endTime":1603.11,"body":"Both the inquisitorial and"},{"startTime":1598.94,"endTime":1603.11,"body":"the adversarial system allow"},{"startTime":1603.11,"endTime":1607.973,"body":"opportunities for oppression"},{"startTime":1603.11,"endTime":1607.973,"body":"and miscarriages of justice."},{"startTime":1608.99,"endTime":1611.69,"body":"I would also question"},{"startTime":1608.99,"endTime":1611.69,"body":"whether Lomax is right"},{"startTime":1611.69,"endTime":1615.38,"body":"in his assertion that"},{"startTime":1611.69,"endTime":1615.38,"body":"the inquisitorial systems"},{"startTime":1615.38,"endTime":1618.92,"body":"tend to have lower rates of imprisonment."},{"startTime":1618.92,"endTime":1621.41,"body":"According to the Council of Europe,"},{"startTime":1621.41,"endTime":1624.44,"body":"on the 31st of January, 2020,"},{"startTime":1624.44,"endTime":1627.26,"body":"the English and Welsh prison populations"},{"startTime":1627.26,"endTime":1632.26,"body":"was 138.8 per 100,000,"},{"startTime":1632.63,"endTime":1636.777,"body":"only slightly ahead of the"},{"startTime":1632.63,"endTime":1636.777,"body":"European average of 124."},{"startTime":1638.9,"endTime":1642.98,"body":"Numerous European countries"},{"startTime":1638.9,"endTime":1642.98,"body":"with the civil law system"},{"startTime":1642.98,"endTime":1646.22,"body":"had higher rates of"},{"startTime":1642.98,"endTime":1646.22,"body":"imprisonment, including Poland,"},{"startTime":1646.22,"endTime":1648.71,"body":"Czech Republic, Slovak Republic,"},{"startTime":1648.71,"endTime":1651.503,"body":"Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania."},{"startTime":1652.46,"endTime":1655.61,"body":"Conversely, the Republic of Ireland,"},{"startTime":1655.61,"endTime":1660.61,"body":"which has an adversarial system"},{"startTime":1655.61,"endTime":1660.61,"body":"based on the English model,"},{"startTime":1660.65,"endTime":1665.2,"body":"had a rate of imprisonment of only 81.6,"},{"startTime":1666.17,"endTime":1669.581,"body":"significantly below the European average."},{"startTime":1669.581,"endTime":1674.581,"body":"In my view, Lomax doesn't"},{"startTime":1669.581,"endTime":1674.581,"body":"adequately justify his claim"},{"startTime":1674.6,"endTime":1676.55,"body":"that there is a direct link"},{"startTime":1676.55,"endTime":1678.14,"body":"between the adversarial system"},{"startTime":1678.14,"endTime":1679.793,"body":"and higher rates of imprisonment."},{"startTime":1680.63,"endTime":1683.3,"body":"There are numerous other factors"},{"startTime":1683.3,"endTime":1686.93,"body":"that we would expect to affect"},{"startTime":1683.3,"endTime":1686.93,"body":"the rate of imprisonment,"},{"startTime":1686.93,"endTime":1691.34,"body":"including sentencin'"},{"startTime":1686.93,"endTime":1691.34,"body":"policy, judicial attitudes,"},{"startTime":1691.34,"endTime":1694.88,"body":"crime rates, and social inequality."},{"startTime":1694.88,"endTime":1699.29,"body":"Lomax doesn't attempt to"},{"startTime":1694.88,"endTime":1699.29,"body":"control for these factors."},{"startTime":1699.29,"endTime":1703.94,"body":"There is no doubt we"},{"startTime":1699.29,"endTime":1703.94,"body":"imprison too many people"},{"startTime":1703.94,"endTime":1705.56,"body":"in England and Wales,"},{"startTime":1705.56,"endTime":1707.87,"body":"and many factors are to blame for this,"},{"startTime":1707.87,"endTime":1712.04,"body":"but I for one am"},{"startTime":1707.87,"endTime":1712.04,"body":"unconvinced that switchin'"},{"startTime":1712.04,"endTime":1716.303,"body":"to an inquisitorial system"},{"startTime":1712.04,"endTime":1716.303,"body":"would bring these numbers down."},{"startTime":1722.39,"endTime":1725.063,"body":"I want to turn to the"},{"startTime":1722.39,"endTime":1725.063,"body":"question of cross-examination."},{"startTime":1726.59,"endTime":1728.75,"body":"You see, one of the distinctive features"},{"startTime":1728.75,"endTime":1730.52,"body":"of the English adversarial system"},{"startTime":1730.52,"endTime":1734.45,"body":"is the importance placed on"},{"startTime":1730.52,"endTime":1734.45,"body":"cross-examination of witnesses."},{"startTime":1734.45,"endTime":1737.45,"body":"The traditional rule in both"},{"startTime":1734.45,"endTime":1737.45,"body":"criminal and civil cases"},{"startTime":1737.45,"endTime":1738.74,"body":"was that a party wishing to"},{"startTime":1738.74,"endTime":1740.862,"body":"rely on the evidence of a witness"},{"startTime":1740.862,"endTime":1742.88,"body":"had to call them to"},{"startTime":1740.862,"endTime":1742.88,"body":"give evidence at trial."},{"startTime":1742.88,"endTime":1744.44,"body":"Hearsay was inadmissible,"},{"startTime":1744.44,"endTime":1747.02,"body":"except in very limited cases,"},{"startTime":1747.02,"endTime":1749.81,"body":"and an advocate cross-examining a witness"},{"startTime":1749.81,"endTime":1753.2,"body":"had to put their case to the witness."},{"startTime":1753.2,"endTime":1755.45,"body":"And if the advocate failed to challenge"},{"startTime":1755.45,"endTime":1757.91,"body":"the witness's evidence"},{"startTime":1755.45,"endTime":1757.91,"body":"in cross-examination,"},{"startTime":1757.91,"endTime":1760.28,"body":"they would not be able to"},{"startTime":1757.91,"endTime":1760.28,"body":"ask the judge or the jury"},{"startTime":1760.28,"endTime":1764.48,"body":"to disbelieve the evidence"},{"startTime":1760.28,"endTime":1764.48,"body":"in their closing speech."},{"startTime":1764.48,"endTime":1766.73,"body":"To some extent, English law has departed"},{"startTime":1766.73,"endTime":1769.64,"body":"from the traditional position."},{"startTime":1769.64,"endTime":1774.64,"body":"Hearsay is much more"},{"startTime":1769.64,"endTime":1774.64,"body":"admissible in civil cases,"},{"startTime":1774.71,"endTime":1778.966,"body":"and even in criminal cases"},{"startTime":1774.71,"endTime":1778.966,"body":"there has been in recent years"},{"startTime":1778.966,"endTime":1783.966,"body":"some departures, such as the"},{"startTime":1778.966,"endTime":1783.966,"body":"curtailing of cross-examination"},{"startTime":1784.31,"endTime":1786.56,"body":"for vulnerable witnesses"},{"startTime":1786.56,"endTime":1791.45,"body":"and the use of achieving"},{"startTime":1786.56,"endTime":1791.45,"body":"best evidence interviews."},{"startTime":1791.45,"endTime":1794.99,"body":"But, it is still the case,"},{"startTime":1794.99,"endTime":1797.84,"body":"that in both criminal and civil cases,"},{"startTime":1797.84,"endTime":1799.94,"body":"oral evidence in cross-examination"},{"startTime":1799.94,"endTime":1803.24,"body":"are considered to be of great importance"},{"startTime":1803.24,"endTime":1806.33,"body":"to the English system of justice."},{"startTime":1806.33,"endTime":1809.69,"body":"Cross-examination is one"},{"startTime":1806.33,"endTime":1809.69,"body":"of the central skills"},{"startTime":1809.69,"endTime":1812.99,"body":"in which English barristers are trained."},{"startTime":1812.99,"endTime":1815.33,"body":"There are, however, a number of reasons"},{"startTime":1815.33,"endTime":1818.87,"body":"to be skeptical about the"},{"startTime":1815.33,"endTime":1818.87,"body":"value of cross-examination"},{"startTime":1818.87,"endTime":1821.06,"body":"in getting to the truth."},{"startTime":1821.06,"endTime":1823.34,"body":"The first is that"},{"startTime":1821.06,"endTime":1823.34,"body":"cross-examination technique"},{"startTime":1823.34,"endTime":1828.29,"body":"often relies on catching the"},{"startTime":1823.34,"endTime":1828.29,"body":"witness out in inconsistencies."},{"startTime":1828.29,"endTime":1830.0,"body":"It relies on an assumption"},{"startTime":1830.0,"endTime":1833.24,"body":"that if a witness contradicts themselves,"},{"startTime":1833.24,"endTime":1834.977,"body":"they must be lyin'."},{"startTime":1835.88,"endTime":1839.66,"body":"But we know from decades"},{"startTime":1835.88,"endTime":1839.66,"body":"of psychological research"},{"startTime":1839.66,"endTime":1842.81,"body":"that this assumption is false."},{"startTime":1842.81,"endTime":1847.37,"body":"Human autobiographical"},{"startTime":1842.81,"endTime":1847.37,"body":"memory is highly fallible."},{"startTime":1847.37,"endTime":1851.96,"body":"We have a very poor memory"},{"startTime":1847.37,"endTime":1851.96,"body":"from temporal information"},{"startTime":1851.96,"endTime":1856.28,"body":"such as dates, durations, and"},{"startTime":1851.96,"endTime":1856.28,"body":"sequences, for proper names,"},{"startTime":1856.28,"endTime":1859.64,"body":"and for exact words used"},{"startTime":1856.28,"endTime":1859.64,"body":"in the conversation."},{"startTime":1859.64,"endTime":1862.52,"body":"And people can experience hypermnesia,"},{"startTime":1862.52,"endTime":1865.64,"body":"remembering more over time,"},{"startTime":1865.64,"endTime":1868.52,"body":"so that a witness's early"},{"startTime":1865.64,"endTime":1868.52,"body":"account is not necessarily"},{"startTime":1868.52,"endTime":1871.49,"body":"more accurate than the later account."},{"startTime":1871.49,"endTime":1874.04,"body":"And I pause there because"},{"startTime":1874.04,"endTime":1877.4,"body":"I remember it being a typical"},{"startTime":1874.04,"endTime":1877.4,"body":"cross examination technique"},{"startTime":1877.4,"endTime":1882.147,"body":"that I deployed for years"},{"startTime":1877.4,"endTime":1882.147,"body":"saying words to the effect,"},{"startTime":1882.147,"endTime":1886.287,"body":"\"Most people's memories diminish"},{"startTime":1882.147,"endTime":1886.287,"body":"with the passage of time,"},{"startTime":1886.287,"endTime":1887.84,"body":"\"not improve,\""},{"startTime":1887.84,"endTime":1892.84,"body":"but studies today seem to"},{"startTime":1887.84,"endTime":1892.84,"body":"cast doubt on that assertion."},{"startTime":1896.12,"endTime":1900.11,"body":"And we also know that"},{"startTime":1896.12,"endTime":1900.11,"body":"all of these problems"},{"startTime":1900.11,"endTime":1904.01,"body":"are exacerbated in people"},{"startTime":1900.11,"endTime":1904.01,"body":"with mental health problems,"},{"startTime":1904.01,"endTime":1906.29,"body":"depression and post-traumatic"},{"startTime":1904.01,"endTime":1906.29,"body":"stress disorder,"},{"startTime":1906.29,"endTime":1909.59,"body":"can cause over general memory,"},{"startTime":1909.59,"endTime":1911.06,"body":"which makes it more difficult"},{"startTime":1911.06,"endTime":1914.69,"body":"to remember specific"},{"startTime":1911.06,"endTime":1914.69,"body":"events from one's past."},{"startTime":1914.69,"endTime":1918.38,"body":"The second is that the process"},{"startTime":1914.69,"endTime":1918.38,"body":"of giving oral evidence"},{"startTime":1918.38,"endTime":1921.47,"body":"may induce judges and"},{"startTime":1918.38,"endTime":1921.47,"body":"juries to rely too much"},{"startTime":1921.47,"endTime":1923.57,"body":"on a witness's demeanor,"},{"startTime":1923.57,"endTime":1928.01,"body":"whether they look and sound"},{"startTime":1923.57,"endTime":1928.01,"body":"credible when giving evidence."},{"startTime":1928.01,"endTime":1930.23,"body":"Such assumptions are unreliable,"},{"startTime":1930.23,"endTime":1932.6,"body":"because many factors may affect"},{"startTime":1932.6,"endTime":1934.55,"body":"a person's demeanor in court,"},{"startTime":1934.55,"endTime":1939.44,"body":"such as cultural background,"},{"startTime":1934.55,"endTime":1939.44,"body":"trauma, neuro divergence."},{"startTime":1939.44,"endTime":1941.69,"body":"In the past, appellate courts"},{"startTime":1941.69,"endTime":1945.38,"body":"referred to the advantage"},{"startTime":1941.69,"endTime":1945.38,"body":"that a trial judge gained"},{"startTime":1945.38,"endTime":1948.26,"body":"from seein' and hearin' the witness."},{"startTime":1948.26,"endTime":1952.7,"body":"But today there is increase"},{"startTime":1948.26,"endTime":1952.7,"body":"in judicial recognition"},{"startTime":1952.7,"endTime":1957.203,"body":"that demeanor is an unreliable"},{"startTime":1952.7,"endTime":1957.203,"body":"guide to credibility."},{"startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.49,"body":"The third is that cross-examination"},{"startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.49,"body":"process relies heavily"},{"startTime":1961.49,"endTime":1964.76,"body":"on the experience and"},{"startTime":1961.49,"endTime":1964.76,"body":"skill of the advocate."},{"startTime":1964.76,"endTime":1968.99,"body":"A seasoned barrister"},{"startTime":1964.76,"endTime":1968.99,"body":"who has cross-examined"},{"startTime":1968.99,"endTime":1972.77,"body":"hundreds of witnesses will"},{"startTime":1968.99,"endTime":1972.77,"body":"generally do a better job"},{"startTime":1972.77,"endTime":1977.39,"body":"than a junior barrister"},{"startTime":1972.77,"endTime":1977.39,"body":"doing their first trial."},{"startTime":1977.39,"endTime":1980.99,"body":"To an extent, it also"},{"startTime":1977.39,"endTime":1980.99,"body":"depends on the witness."},{"startTime":1980.99,"endTime":1983.24,"body":"An expert witness who's"},{"startTime":1980.99,"endTime":1983.24,"body":"been cross-examined"},{"startTime":1983.24,"endTime":1985.37,"body":"hundreds of times will"},{"startTime":1983.24,"endTime":1985.37,"body":"generally fare better"},{"startTime":1985.37,"endTime":1988.79,"body":"than a nervous witness who's"},{"startTime":1985.37,"endTime":1988.79,"body":"in court for the first time."},{"startTime":1988.79,"endTime":1991.85,"body":"In short, how well a witness performs"},{"startTime":1991.85,"endTime":1996.08,"body":"under cross-examination"},{"startTime":1991.85,"endTime":1996.08,"body":"is not a reliable guide"},{"startTime":1996.08,"endTime":1999.26,"body":"to whether they are telling the truth."},{"startTime":1999.26,"endTime":2001.81,"body":"A particularly serious"},{"startTime":1999.26,"endTime":2001.81,"body":"problem in this regard"},{"startTime":2001.81,"endTime":2006.81,"body":"has been the proliferation"},{"startTime":2001.81,"endTime":2006.81,"body":"of unrepresented litigants"},{"startTime":2007.06,"endTime":2010.33,"body":"following the swinge in"},{"startTime":2007.06,"endTime":2010.33,"body":"cuts made to legal aid"},{"startTime":2010.33,"endTime":2012.19,"body":"made by the Legal Aid Sentencing"},{"startTime":2012.19,"endTime":2016.6,"body":"and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012,"},{"startTime":2016.6,"endTime":2019.66,"body":"a litigant in person cannot be expected"},{"startTime":2019.66,"endTime":2021.368,"body":"to cross-examine effectively,"},{"startTime":2021.368,"endTime":2025.42,"body":"and is therefore at a huge disadvantage."},{"startTime":2025.42,"endTime":2029.26,"body":"And in some cases this creates"},{"startTime":2025.42,"endTime":2029.26,"body":"an even bigger problem."},{"startTime":2029.26,"endTime":2034.126,"body":"It is obviously inappropriate"},{"startTime":2029.26,"endTime":2034.126,"body":"for that person accused"},{"startTime":2034.126,"endTime":2037.203,"body":"in a case of sexual violence"},{"startTime":2037.203,"endTime":2042.179,"body":"should cross-examine"},{"startTime":2037.203,"endTime":2042.179,"body":"their victim in person."},{"startTime":2042.179,"endTime":2043.69,"body":"But in the family courts,"},{"startTime":2043.69,"endTime":2046.12,"body":"many people accused of sexual violence"},{"startTime":2046.12,"endTime":2048.25,"body":"are now unrepresented,"},{"startTime":2048.25,"endTime":2050.68,"body":"and this sometimes forces the judge"},{"startTime":2050.68,"endTime":2052.66,"body":"to descend into the arena"},{"startTime":2052.66,"endTime":2055.24,"body":"by questioning the witness themselves,"},{"startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2058.213,"body":"which can compromise the"},{"startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2058.213,"body":"fairness of the proceedings."},{"startTime":2059.77,"endTime":2063.49,"body":"Now you might think that"},{"startTime":2059.77,"endTime":2063.49,"body":"the solution is simple,"},{"startTime":2063.49,"endTime":2067.0,"body":"just expand legal aid and fund it properly"},{"startTime":2067.0,"endTime":2071.26,"body":"so that everyone who needs to"},{"startTime":2067.0,"endTime":2071.26,"body":"be represented is represented."},{"startTime":2071.26,"endTime":2073.9,"body":"And I agree we certainly should do that,"},{"startTime":2073.9,"endTime":2077.179,"body":"but it isn't a complete answer."},{"startTime":2077.179,"endTime":2081.22,"body":"It will still be the"},{"startTime":2077.179,"endTime":2081.22,"body":"case that some counsel"},{"startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"are better at"},{"startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"cross-examination than others"},{"startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"and that some witnesses"},{"startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"withstand it better than others"},{"startTime":2088.54,"endTime":2091.84,"body":"for reasons unrelated to the truth"},{"startTime":2091.84,"endTime":2095.533,"body":"or falsehood of the evidence."},{"startTime":2096.58,"endTime":2097.69,"body":"On the other hand,"},{"startTime":2097.69,"endTime":2099.37,"body":"this doesn't necessarily mean"},{"startTime":2099.37,"endTime":2102.97,"body":"that the inquisitorial"},{"startTime":2099.37,"endTime":2102.97,"body":"system would be better."},{"startTime":2102.97,"endTime":2107.14,"body":"As we've seen, that system"},{"startTime":2102.97,"endTime":2107.14,"body":"suffers from its own problems,"},{"startTime":2107.14,"endTime":2110.2,"body":"and it doesn't escape"},{"startTime":2107.14,"endTime":2110.2,"body":"the fundamental problem,"},{"startTime":2110.2,"endTime":2114.22,"body":"which is that decision"},{"startTime":2110.2,"endTime":2114.22,"body":"makers are simply bad"},{"startTime":2114.22,"endTime":2115.873,"body":"at assessing credibility."},{"startTime":2117.64,"endTime":2122.597,"body":"As Hilary Evans Cameron states, quote,"},{"startTime":2122.597,"endTime":2125.297,"body":"\"When it comes to assessing credibility,"},{"startTime":2125.297,"endTime":2128.987,"body":"\"police officers, prosecutors, and judges,"},{"startTime":2128.987,"endTime":2133.187,"body":"\"as well as laypeople have hit rates"},{"startTime":2133.187,"endTime":2137.083,"body":"\"just above the level of chance."},{"startTime":2138.527,"endTime":2140.177,"body":"\"This problem will persist"},{"startTime":2140.177,"endTime":2142.967,"body":"\"whether we have an adversarial system"},{"startTime":2142.967,"endTime":2144.787,"body":"\"or an inquisitorial one.\""},{"startTime":2150.76,"endTime":2151.813,"body":"Let's look ahead."},{"startTime":2153.31,"endTime":2155.44,"body":"I want to come back to the question"},{"startTime":2155.44,"endTime":2157.3,"body":"I asked right at the very beginnin'."},{"startTime":2157.3,"endTime":2161.143,"body":"Does the adversarial system serve us well?"},{"startTime":2162.31,"endTime":2166.96,"body":"You might think that my discussion so far"},{"startTime":2166.96,"endTime":2169.63,"body":"has been somewhat"},{"startTime":2166.96,"endTime":2169.63,"body":"conservative and Eurocentric."},{"startTime":2169.63,"endTime":2171.7,"body":"After all, I've only talked about"},{"startTime":2171.7,"endTime":2173.89,"body":"the English adversarial system model"},{"startTime":2173.89,"endTime":2175.813,"body":"and the French inquisitorial system,"},{"startTime":2176.8,"endTime":2180.163,"body":"both essentially European"},{"startTime":2176.8,"endTime":2180.163,"body":"ideals of justice,"},{"startTime":2181.81,"endTime":2184.6,"body":"although the legacy of colonialism means"},{"startTime":2184.6,"endTime":2186.52,"body":"that they will have been exported"},{"startTime":2186.52,"endTime":2188.323,"body":"to many parts of the world."},{"startTime":2189.19,"endTime":2191.38,"body":"What about other conceptions of justice"},{"startTime":2191.38,"endTime":2193.903,"body":"that are rooted in other traditions?"},{"startTime":2195.19,"endTime":2198.25,"body":"As I stated earlier, the"},{"startTime":2195.19,"endTime":2198.25,"body":"adversarial system of justice"},{"startTime":2198.25,"endTime":2201.79,"body":"has been criticized for"},{"startTime":2198.25,"endTime":2201.79,"body":"being overly focused"},{"startTime":2201.79,"endTime":2205.6,"body":"on winnin' and losin' rather"},{"startTime":2201.79,"endTime":2205.6,"body":"than promoting justice."},{"startTime":2205.6,"endTime":2210.1,"body":"This has led to calls for"},{"startTime":2205.6,"endTime":2210.1,"body":"alternative models of justice"},{"startTime":2210.1,"endTime":2213.61,"body":"that prioritize"},{"startTime":2210.1,"endTime":2213.61,"body":"collaboration and restoration"},{"startTime":2213.61,"endTime":2216.643,"body":"over confrontation and punishment."},{"startTime":2218.68,"endTime":2220.303,"body":"Restorative justice."},{"startTime":2222.88,"endTime":2227.88,"body":"Now this is a system of justice,"},{"startTime":2222.88,"endTime":2227.88,"body":"which is victim-centered,"},{"startTime":2228.13,"endTime":2231.28,"body":"a victim-centered approach that focuses on"},{"startTime":2231.28,"endTime":2234.28,"body":"repairing the harm caused by the offense"},{"startTime":2234.28,"endTime":2236.383,"body":"rather than punishing the offender."},{"startTime":2237.321,"endTime":2240.76,"body":"In a restorative justice model,"},{"startTime":2240.76,"endTime":2243.19,"body":"victims, offenders, and community members"},{"startTime":2243.19,"endTime":2246.64,"body":"come together to discuss the"},{"startTime":2243.19,"endTime":2246.64,"body":"harm that has been caused"},{"startTime":2246.64,"endTime":2250.36,"body":"and work together to find"},{"startTime":2246.64,"endTime":2250.36,"body":"out a way to repair the harm."},{"startTime":2250.36,"endTime":2253.54,"body":"Restorative justice can"},{"startTime":2250.36,"endTime":2253.54,"body":"have several benefits."},{"startTime":2253.54,"endTime":2256.36,"body":"It can provide victims"},{"startTime":2253.54,"endTime":2256.36,"body":"with a greater sense"},{"startTime":2256.36,"endTime":2258.19,"body":"of closure and satisfaction"},{"startTime":2258.19,"endTime":2262.48,"body":"than traditional criminal"},{"startTime":2258.19,"endTime":2262.48,"body":"justice processes."},{"startTime":2262.48,"endTime":2266.38,"body":"It can reduce recidivism rates"},{"startTime":2266.38,"endTime":2270.04,"body":"by addressing the underlying"},{"startTime":2266.38,"endTime":2270.04,"body":"causes of criminal behavior."},{"startTime":2270.04,"endTime":2272.86,"body":"It can foster a sense of community"},{"startTime":2272.86,"endTime":2277.86,"body":"and promote healing amongst"},{"startTime":2272.86,"endTime":2277.86,"body":"those affected by the offense."},{"startTime":2278.98,"endTime":2280.99,"body":"Some forms of restorative justice"},{"startTime":2280.99,"endTime":2284.47,"body":"are rooted in non-Western"},{"startTime":2280.99,"endTime":2284.47,"body":"traditions of justice"},{"startTime":2284.47,"endTime":2287.38,"body":"and have been heralded as an antidote"},{"startTime":2287.38,"endTime":2291.25,"body":"to punitive and fault-based"},{"startTime":2287.38,"endTime":2291.25,"body":"European traditions."},{"startTime":2291.25,"endTime":2294.763,"body":"As Archbishop Desmond Tutu said,"},{"startTime":2295.697,"endTime":2297.587,"body":"\"We contend that there is"},{"startTime":2297.587,"endTime":2300.257,"body":"\"another kind of justice,"},{"startTime":2297.587,"endTime":2300.257,"body":"restorative justice,"},{"startTime":2300.257,"endTime":2302.327,"body":"\"which has characteristics"},{"startTime":2302.327,"endTime":2305.747,"body":"\"of traditional African jurisprudence."},{"startTime":2305.747,"endTime":2307.547,"body":"\"Here, the central concern is not"},{"startTime":2307.547,"endTime":2309.617,"body":"\"of retribution or punishment,"},{"startTime":2309.617,"endTime":2312.047,"body":"\"but in the spirit of ubuntu,"},{"startTime":2312.047,"endTime":2315.407,"body":"\"the healing of breaches,"},{"startTime":2312.047,"endTime":2315.407,"body":"the redressing of imbalances,"},{"startTime":2315.407,"endTime":2319.067,"body":"\"the restoration of broken"},{"startTime":2315.407,"endTime":2319.067,"body":"promise, relationships."},{"startTime":2319.067,"endTime":2322.007,"body":"\"This kind of justice"},{"startTime":2319.067,"endTime":2322.007,"body":"seeks to rehabilitate"},{"startTime":2322.007,"endTime":2325.487,"body":"\"both victim and the perpetrator,"},{"startTime":2325.487,"endTime":2327.707,"body":"\"who should be given the opportunity"},{"startTime":2327.707,"endTime":2330.977,"body":"\"to be reintegrated into the community"},{"startTime":2330.977,"endTime":2334.267,"body":"\"they have injured by their offense.\""},{"startTime":2335.5,"endTime":2338.35,"body":"Around the world restorative justice"},{"startTime":2338.35,"endTime":2342.07,"body":"has increasingly been recognized in law,"},{"startTime":2342.07,"endTime":2345.7,"body":"not as a replacement"},{"startTime":2342.07,"endTime":2345.7,"body":"for the judicial system,"},{"startTime":2345.7,"endTime":2347.98,"body":"but as an adjunct to it."},{"startTime":2347.98,"endTime":2350.95,"body":"There are numerous"},{"startTime":2347.98,"endTime":2350.95,"body":"examples around the world"},{"startTime":2350.95,"endTime":2353.53,"body":"of restorative justice programs"},{"startTime":2353.53,"endTime":2355.213,"body":"in the criminal justice system."},{"startTime":2356.62,"endTime":2357.79,"body":"In some instances,"},{"startTime":2357.79,"endTime":2359.29,"body":"criminal cases are referred to"},{"startTime":2359.29,"endTime":2361.81,"body":"a restorative justice process"},{"startTime":2361.81,"endTime":2364.35,"body":"as an alternative to prosecution."},{"startTime":2364.35,"endTime":2367.78,"body":"In other cases, a"},{"startTime":2364.35,"endTime":2367.78,"body":"restorative justice process"},{"startTime":2367.78,"endTime":2370.45,"body":"takes place before sentence,"},{"startTime":2370.45,"endTime":2373.81,"body":"and is taken into account in sentencing."},{"startTime":2373.81,"endTime":2376.24,"body":"In New Zealand, the Maori people"},{"startTime":2376.24,"endTime":2378.82,"body":"have been using restorative"},{"startTime":2376.24,"endTime":2378.82,"body":"justice practices"},{"startTime":2378.82,"endTime":2381.28,"body":"in their communities for centuries."},{"startTime":2381.28,"endTime":2384.19,"body":"Another example in the"},{"startTime":2381.28,"endTime":2384.19,"body":"UK is the Youth Justice,"},{"startTime":2384.19,"endTime":2386.8,"body":"the Youth Conference"},{"startTime":2384.19,"endTime":2386.8,"body":"Service in Northern Ireland,"},{"startTime":2386.8,"endTime":2389.875,"body":"which was introduced in 2003."},{"startTime":2389.875,"endTime":2393.25,"body":"The Navajo Nation Peacemaker Program"},{"startTime":2393.25,"endTime":2395.993,"body":"is a good example of non-Western,"},{"startTime":2395.993,"endTime":2399.07,"body":"non-adversarial tradition of justice"},{"startTime":2399.07,"endTime":2403.09,"body":"coexisting with formal justice system."},{"startTime":2403.09,"endTime":2406.773,"body":"Within the Navajo Nation the"},{"startTime":2403.09,"endTime":2406.773,"body":"Peacemaker Program coexists"},{"startTime":2406.773,"endTime":2410.44,"body":"within the formal tribal court system."},{"startTime":2410.44,"endTime":2414.11,"body":"As described by the judicial branch"},{"startTime":2414.11,"endTime":2416.62,"body":"of the Navajo Nation in 2004,"},{"startTime":2416.62,"endTime":2419.747,"body":"the role of the peacemaker is to, quote,"},{"startTime":2419.747,"endTime":2423.137,"body":"\"bring the parties together"},{"startTime":2419.747,"endTime":2423.137,"body":"to talk out disputes"},{"startTime":2423.137,"endTime":2425.447,"body":"\"and to reach a consensual agreement."},{"startTime":2425.447,"endTime":2427.907,"body":"\"A peacemaker is not an adjudicator"},{"startTime":2427.907,"endTime":2429.827,"body":"\"and does not sit in judgment."},{"startTime":2429.827,"endTime":2434.117,"body":"\"Rather, they facilitate"},{"startTime":2429.827,"endTime":2434.117,"body":"and guide disputing parties"},{"startTime":2434.117,"endTime":2436.477,"body":"\"to reach and decide for themselves.\""},{"startTime":2437.86,"endTime":2441.91,"body":"Although rooted in a"},{"startTime":2437.86,"endTime":2441.91,"body":"particular cultural tradition,"},{"startTime":2441.91,"endTime":2443.65,"body":"the Navajo Peacemaker Program"},{"startTime":2443.65,"endTime":2445.993,"body":"has inspired initiatives elsewhere."},{"startTime":2447.1,"endTime":2450.34,"body":"Another example of the"},{"startTime":2447.1,"endTime":2450.34,"body":"voluntary dispute resolution"},{"startTime":2450.34,"endTime":2453.1,"body":"in a non-Western cultural context"},{"startTime":2453.1,"endTime":2458.1,"body":"is the Peace and Consensus"},{"startTime":2453.1,"endTime":2458.1,"body":"Committee in Rojava,"},{"startTime":2458.32,"endTime":2461.32,"body":"which responds to crime and conflict"},{"startTime":2461.32,"endTime":2465.793,"body":"by seeking to reach a"},{"startTime":2461.32,"endTime":2465.793,"body":"consensus between the parties."},{"startTime":2467.17,"endTime":2469.78,"body":"There are also separate"},{"startTime":2467.17,"endTime":2469.78,"body":"women's committees,"},{"startTime":2469.78,"endTime":2472.093,"body":"which deal with violence against women."},{"startTime":2472.99,"endTime":2475.54,"body":"For those of us who are"},{"startTime":2472.99,"endTime":2475.54,"body":"worried about the impact"},{"startTime":2475.54,"endTime":2479.2,"body":"of carceral justice systems"},{"startTime":2479.2,"endTime":2482.05,"body":"on marginalized people and communities,"},{"startTime":2482.05,"endTime":2485.049,"body":"restorative justice and peacemaking"},{"startTime":2485.049,"endTime":2489.31,"body":"are attractive options."},{"startTime":2489.31,"endTime":2494.31,"body":"Clearly, these programs do"},{"startTime":2489.31,"endTime":2494.31,"body":"have a great deal of promise"},{"startTime":2494.44,"endTime":2497.02,"body":"in resolving conflicts"},{"startTime":2494.44,"endTime":2497.02,"body":"and addressing harms"},{"startTime":2497.02,"endTime":2500.773,"body":"outside the formal justice systems."},{"startTime":2504.07,"endTime":2505.573,"body":"But there are limitations."},{"startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2510.97,"body":"It's important to note that"},{"startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2510.97,"body":"restorative justice process"},{"startTime":2510.97,"endTime":2513.433,"body":"do have certain limitations."},{"startTime":2515.53,"endTime":2517.78,"body":"They may not be appropriate for all cases,"},{"startTime":2517.78,"endTime":2520.84,"body":"particularly those"},{"startTime":2517.78,"endTime":2520.84,"body":"involving serious offenses"},{"startTime":2520.84,"endTime":2523.12,"body":"or repeat offenders."},{"startTime":2523.12,"endTime":2527.44,"body":"In these cases, the harm"},{"startTime":2523.12,"endTime":2527.44,"body":"caused may be too severe"},{"startTime":2527.44,"endTime":2530.38,"body":"or the offender may be unrepentant,"},{"startTime":2530.38,"endTime":2532.54,"body":"making it difficult to achieve"},{"startTime":2532.54,"endTime":2536.5,"body":"meaningful restoration of relationships."},{"startTime":2536.5,"endTime":2539.47,"body":"Moreover, restorative justice requires"},{"startTime":2539.47,"endTime":2541.93,"body":"a willingness to participate"},{"startTime":2541.93,"endTime":2544.843,"body":"from both offender and the victim."},{"startTime":2546.34,"endTime":2548.89,"body":"And restorative justice is not designed"},{"startTime":2548.89,"endTime":2551.77,"body":"to settle factual disputes."},{"startTime":2551.77,"endTime":2554.65,"body":"It isn't equipped to deal"},{"startTime":2551.77,"endTime":2554.65,"body":"with a situation where"},{"startTime":2554.65,"endTime":2559.65,"body":"the accused denies that they"},{"startTime":2554.65,"endTime":2559.65,"body":"did what they are accused of."},{"startTime":2559.87,"endTime":2563.53,"body":"Second, some feminists"},{"startTime":2559.87,"endTime":2563.53,"body":"about have been critical"},{"startTime":2563.53,"endTime":2565.42,"body":"of the use of restorative justice"},{"startTime":2565.42,"endTime":2569.08,"body":"in the context of sexual"},{"startTime":2565.42,"endTime":2569.08,"body":"and gender-based violence"},{"startTime":2569.08,"endTime":2572.35,"body":"on the grounds that it might"},{"startTime":2569.08,"endTime":2572.35,"body":"serve as an opportunity"},{"startTime":2572.35,"endTime":2577.35,"body":"for the abuser to re-victimize"},{"startTime":2572.35,"endTime":2577.35,"body":"and re-traumatize a victim"},{"startTime":2577.66,"endTime":2581.2,"body":"and might not lead to"},{"startTime":2577.66,"endTime":2581.2,"body":"effective action being taken"},{"startTime":2581.2,"endTime":2584.863,"body":"against the perpetrator"},{"startTime":2581.2,"endTime":2584.863,"body":"to protect other victims."},{"startTime":2585.94,"endTime":2588.49,"body":"On the one hand, that is not to say"},{"startTime":2588.49,"endTime":2591.46,"body":"that restorative justice"},{"startTime":2588.49,"endTime":2591.46,"body":"is always inappropriate"},{"startTime":2591.46,"endTime":2595.09,"body":"in cases of sexual and"},{"startTime":2591.46,"endTime":2595.09,"body":"gender-based violence."},{"startTime":2595.09,"endTime":2597.19,"body":"As I highlighted earlier,"},{"startTime":2597.19,"endTime":2601.09,"body":"Rojava has adopted a system"},{"startTime":2597.19,"endTime":2601.09,"body":"of women's peace committees"},{"startTime":2601.09,"endTime":2603.22,"body":"that deal with violence against women."},{"startTime":2603.22,"endTime":2606.16,"body":"And in the West, other"},{"startTime":2603.22,"endTime":2606.16,"body":"feminist legal scholars"},{"startTime":2606.16,"endTime":2610.21,"body":"have identified a positive case"},{"startTime":2610.21,"endTime":2612.19,"body":"for restorative justice in some cases"},{"startTime":2612.19,"endTime":2615.223,"body":"of sexual and gender-based violence."},{"startTime":2616.96,"endTime":2618.493,"body":"It's also worth notin'"},{"startTime":2619.6,"endTime":2622.81,"body":"that implementin' restorative justice"},{"startTime":2622.81,"endTime":2627.01,"body":"can be challengin' in"},{"startTime":2622.81,"endTime":2627.01,"body":"large, complex legal systems"},{"startTime":2627.01,"endTime":2629.56,"body":"where resources may be limited,"},{"startTime":2629.56,"endTime":2632.56,"body":"and there may be a resistance to change"},{"startTime":2632.56,"endTime":2637.56,"body":"from those who have invested"},{"startTime":2632.56,"endTime":2637.56,"body":"in the existing system."},{"startTime":2638.32,"endTime":2641.623,"body":"So, what can we learn from all of this?"},{"startTime":2642.52,"endTime":2644.2,"body":"Restorative justice remains"},{"startTime":2644.2,"endTime":2648.04,"body":"a promising alternative to"},{"startTime":2644.2,"endTime":2648.04,"body":"traditional punitive approaches"},{"startTime":2648.04,"endTime":2650.743,"body":"in cases where it's"},{"startTime":2648.04,"endTime":2650.743,"body":"feasible and appropriate."},{"startTime":2652.0,"endTime":2655.33,"body":"We can say that restorative"},{"startTime":2652.0,"endTime":2655.33,"body":"justice and peacemaking models"},{"startTime":2655.33,"endTime":2657.49,"body":"have significant advantages"},{"startTime":2657.49,"endTime":2660.85,"body":"as an alternative to punitive justice,"},{"startTime":2660.85,"endTime":2664.84,"body":"but they aren't suitable for every case."},{"startTime":2664.84,"endTime":2667.09,"body":"And in the places where they have been"},{"startTime":2667.09,"endTime":2669.25,"body":"deployed on a large scale,"},{"startTime":2669.25,"endTime":2671.47,"body":"they've tended not to be a replacement"},{"startTime":2671.47,"endTime":2675.013,"body":"for traditional justice"},{"startTime":2671.47,"endTime":2675.013,"body":"systems, but an adjunct to it."},{"startTime":2675.94,"endTime":2678.46,"body":"While these alternative models of justice"},{"startTime":2678.46,"endTime":2681.25,"body":"have their own advantages"},{"startTime":2678.46,"endTime":2681.25,"body":"and disadvantages,"},{"startTime":2681.25,"endTime":2684.52,"body":"they all share a focus on collaboration"},{"startTime":2684.52,"endTime":2686.98,"body":"and problem solving and"},{"startTime":2684.52,"endTime":2686.98,"body":"community involvement"},{"startTime":2686.98,"endTime":2690.343,"body":"rather than adversarialism and punishment."},{"startTime":2691.42,"endTime":2695.11,"body":"There are also more radical alternatives."},{"startTime":2695.11,"endTime":2699.37,"body":"Some people on the anti-carceral left"},{"startTime":2699.37,"endTime":2703.63,"body":"who believe in the full"},{"startTime":2699.37,"endTime":2703.63,"body":"abolition of police and prisons"},{"startTime":2703.63,"endTime":2707.65,"body":"have instead adopted the idea"},{"startTime":2703.63,"endTime":2707.65,"body":"of transformative justice,"},{"startTime":2707.65,"endTime":2710.637,"body":"which rejects this kind of integration"},{"startTime":2710.637,"endTime":2713.773,"body":"into the carceral system."},{"startTime":2714.85,"endTime":2717.85,"body":"That's a whole topic in itself"},{"startTime":2717.85,"endTime":2721.6,"body":"with a number of"},{"startTime":2717.85,"endTime":2721.6,"body":"arguments for and against,"},{"startTime":2721.6,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"and time doesn't permit"},{"startTime":2721.6,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"me to do it justice today."},{"startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2729.853,"body":"That will be a topic in a"},{"startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2729.853,"body":"later lecture in this series."},{"startTime":2730.75,"endTime":2732.34,"body":"We will be looking at"},{"startTime":2732.34,"endTime":2735.22,"body":"restorative and transformative justice."},{"startTime":2735.22,"endTime":2739.363,"body":"And when I consider do"},{"startTime":2735.22,"endTime":2739.363,"body":"we need criminal law?"},{"startTime":2740.77,"endTime":2743.353,"body":"So, we come to the end."},{"startTime":2744.43,"endTime":2745.263,"body":"Conclusion."},{"startTime":2747.25,"endTime":2751.96,"body":"In conclusion, the"},{"startTime":2747.25,"endTime":2751.96,"body":"adversarial system of justice"},{"startTime":2751.96,"endTime":2754.22,"body":"in England and Wales has numerous flaws"},{"startTime":2755.095,"endTime":2758.65,"body":"that have been extensively"},{"startTime":2755.095,"endTime":2758.65,"body":"discussed in this lecture."},{"startTime":2758.65,"endTime":2762.46,"body":"And while it can be"},{"startTime":2758.65,"endTime":2762.46,"body":"effective in certain cases,"},{"startTime":2762.46,"endTime":2767.203,"body":"it's not universally effective"},{"startTime":2762.46,"endTime":2767.203,"body":"in gettin' at the truth,"},{"startTime":2768.04,"endTime":2769.99,"body":"and it can become profoundly unfair"},{"startTime":2769.99,"endTime":2772.66,"body":"when one party is unrepresented"},{"startTime":2772.66,"endTime":2776.59,"body":"or there is a significant"},{"startTime":2772.66,"endTime":2776.59,"body":"inequality of resources"},{"startTime":2776.59,"endTime":2778.54,"body":"between the parties."},{"startTime":2778.54,"endTime":2781.75,"body":"There isn't a level playing field."},{"startTime":2781.75,"endTime":2784.57,"body":"However, we should be cautious"},{"startTime":2784.57,"endTime":2786.88,"body":"about replacing it with another system,"},{"startTime":2786.88,"endTime":2790.133,"body":"as the inquisitorial system,"},{"startTime":2790.133,"endTime":2791.98,"body":"because that may not necessarily"},{"startTime":2791.98,"endTime":2795.13,"body":"lead to fairer trials or better outcomes."},{"startTime":2795.13,"endTime":2798.49,"body":"We should also be skeptical of the belief"},{"startTime":2798.49,"endTime":2800.53,"body":"that the continental European systems"},{"startTime":2800.53,"endTime":2802.933,"body":"are superior to our own."},{"startTime":2804.28,"endTime":2807.31,"body":"Restorative justice and"},{"startTime":2804.28,"endTime":2807.31,"body":"peacemaking should be embraced."},{"startTime":2807.31,"endTime":2809.56,"body":"But it's important to recognize"},{"startTime":2809.56,"endTime":2813.07,"body":"that they are not"},{"startTime":2809.56,"endTime":2813.07,"body":"appropriate in every case"},{"startTime":2813.07,"endTime":2815.71,"body":"and are not a complete replacement"},{"startTime":2815.71,"endTime":2818.23,"body":"for the adversarial system."},{"startTime":2818.23,"endTime":2820.36,"body":"In many cases, we still need a means"},{"startTime":2820.36,"endTime":2822.91,"body":"of resolving factual disputes"},{"startTime":2822.91,"endTime":2826.093,"body":"and decidin' who is telling the truth."},{"startTime":2827.059,"endTime":2829.0,"body":"Therefore, mitigating"},{"startTime":2829.0,"endTime":2831.16,"body":"some of the adversarial system's problems"},{"startTime":2831.16,"endTime":2834.34,"body":"by increasing legal aid significantly"},{"startTime":2834.34,"endTime":2837.01,"body":"is the most effective"},{"startTime":2834.34,"endTime":2837.01,"body":"measure when it comes to"},{"startTime":2837.01,"endTime":2840.37,"body":"mitigating inequality of arms."},{"startTime":2840.37,"endTime":2842.68,"body":"We must also strive to address"},{"startTime":2842.68,"endTime":2845.83,"body":"the systemic biases and inequalities"},{"startTime":2845.83,"endTime":2848.44,"body":"present in the current"},{"startTime":2845.83,"endTime":2848.44,"body":"system and work towards"},{"startTime":2848.44,"endTime":2853.44,"body":"a more equitable and just"},{"startTime":2848.44,"endTime":2853.44,"body":"outcome for the parties involved."},{"startTime":2854.475,"endTime":2859.475,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2854.475,"endTime":2859.475,"body":"(audience applauding)"},{"startTime":2862.153,"endTime":2863.912,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":2863.912,"endTime":2865.93,"body":"Thank you very much, Professor Thomas,"},{"startTime":2865.93,"endTime":2868.18,"body":"for this fascinating lecture."},{"startTime":2868.18,"endTime":2870.22,"body":"So as usual, we'll start with question"},{"startTime":2870.22,"endTime":2872.86,"body":"from our online audience."},{"startTime":2872.86,"endTime":2875.35,"body":"As you can guess, we have many of them,"},{"startTime":2875.35,"endTime":2878.98,"body":"and then we'll open up"},{"startTime":2875.35,"endTime":2878.98,"body":"the floor for questions."},{"startTime":2878.98,"endTime":2881.89,"body":"So first a question I suspect, perhaps,"},{"startTime":2881.89,"endTime":2884.02,"body":"someone from the legal profession"},{"startTime":2884.02,"endTime":2887.08,"body":"who wants your opinion"},{"startTime":2884.02,"endTime":2887.08,"body":"on the oppositional view"},{"startTime":2887.08,"endTime":2891.13,"body":"of the inquisitorial versus"},{"startTime":2887.08,"endTime":2891.13,"body":"the adversarial system."},{"startTime":2891.13,"endTime":2894.257,"body":"And the person is asking and saying that"},{"startTime":2894.257,"endTime":2896.477,"body":"\"a key difference between the system"},{"startTime":2896.477,"endTime":2898.757,"body":"\"is that the adversarial system has"},{"startTime":2898.757,"endTime":2901.27,"body":"\"a separate sentencing hearing.\""},{"startTime":2901.27,"endTime":2903.057,"body":"Inquisite, sorry."},{"startTime":2903.057,"endTime":2904.69,"body":"\"Inquisitorial systems determine"},{"startTime":2904.69,"endTime":2907.457,"body":"verdict and sentence at the same time."},{"startTime":2907.457,"endTime":2910.667,"body":"\"In my view, the adversarial"},{"startTime":2907.457,"endTime":2910.667,"body":"system is superior."},{"startTime":2910.667,"endTime":2911.717,"body":"\"Do you have a view?\""},{"startTime":2912.88,"endTime":2915.58,"body":"- Yeah, I do have a view."},{"startTime":2915.58,"endTime":2920.58,"body":"I think that a period of time,"},{"startTime":2922.15,"endTime":2927.15,"body":"generally, after conviction,"},{"startTime":2927.67,"endTime":2932.67,"body":"whereby you have a look"},{"startTime":2927.67,"endTime":2932.67,"body":"at all the surroundin'"},{"startTime":2935.53,"endTime":2938.653,"body":"facts and information and get reports in,"},{"startTime":2939.55,"endTime":2942.97,"body":"I think that's a better"},{"startTime":2939.55,"endTime":2942.97,"body":"system, personally,"},{"startTime":2942.97,"endTime":2945.97,"body":"but I don't know whether"},{"startTime":2942.97,"endTime":2945.97,"body":"there's a cultural bias,"},{"startTime":2945.97,"endTime":2949.723,"body":"because that's a system"},{"startTime":2945.97,"endTime":2949.723,"body":"that I'm so used to."},{"startTime":2949.723,"endTime":2953.8,"body":"So, as opposed to just"},{"startTime":2949.723,"endTime":2953.8,"body":"going straight through"},{"startTime":2953.8,"endTime":2958.27,"body":"and convicting and sentencin'"},{"startTime":2953.8,"endTime":2958.27,"body":"straight afterwards."},{"startTime":2958.27,"endTime":2959.26,"body":"- Thank you."},{"startTime":2959.26,"endTime":2964.15,"body":"Another question actually"},{"startTime":2959.26,"endTime":2964.15,"body":"in relation to technology,"},{"startTime":2964.15,"endTime":2966.617,"body":"and a person asking is,"},{"startTime":2966.617,"endTime":2970.037,"body":"\"How much does forensing"},{"startTime":2966.617,"endTime":2970.037,"body":"science and technology,"},{"startTime":2970.037,"endTime":2973.847,"body":"\"like CCTV, change the"},{"startTime":2970.037,"endTime":2973.847,"body":"structure of cross-examination"},{"startTime":2973.847,"endTime":2977.35,"body":"\"and evidence reporting"},{"startTime":2973.847,"endTime":2977.35,"body":"in criminal trials?\""},{"startTime":2977.35,"endTime":2979.42,"body":"- That's a really interesting question."},{"startTime":2979.42,"endTime":2981.52,"body":"Now, I say this."},{"startTime":2981.52,"endTime":2983.41,"body":"I'm not a criminal practitioner,"},{"startTime":2983.41,"endTime":2987.41,"body":"but I had a conversation with a very"},{"startTime":2989.62,"endTime":2992.74,"body":"esteemed criminal"},{"startTime":2989.62,"endTime":2992.74,"body":"practitioner the other day,"},{"startTime":2992.74,"endTime":2995.77,"body":"and he was telling me that technology"},{"startTime":2995.77,"endTime":2998.83,"body":"has really fundamentally changed"},{"startTime":2998.83,"endTime":3001.26,"body":"some of the criminal"},{"startTime":2998.83,"endTime":3001.26,"body":"cases that he's doing,"},{"startTime":3001.26,"endTime":3006.26,"body":"in the sense that now,"},{"startTime":3001.26,"endTime":3006.26,"body":"with mobile phone evidence,"},{"startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3013.113,"body":"cell site evidence, CCTV,"},{"startTime":3014.34,"endTime":3017.16,"body":"the nature of criminal"},{"startTime":3014.34,"endTime":3017.16,"body":"trials is changing so much"},{"startTime":3017.16,"endTime":3020.076,"body":"that the prosecution are just"},{"startTime":3020.076,"endTime":3025.076,"body":"coming with piles and"},{"startTime":3020.076,"endTime":3025.076,"body":"piles of this material."},{"startTime":3025.65,"endTime":3030.65,"body":"And it's leaving very little"},{"startTime":3025.65,"endTime":3030.65,"body":"for defense counsels to say"},{"startTime":3030.87,"endTime":3035.07,"body":"in terms of all evidence"},{"startTime":3030.87,"endTime":3035.07,"body":"from their clients,"},{"startTime":3035.07,"endTime":3037.923,"body":"because the evidence is location,"},{"startTime":3041.82,"endTime":3044.52,"body":"positionin', and-"},{"startTime":3041.82,"endTime":3044.52,"body":"- Sorry,"},{"startTime":3044.52,"endTime":3046.109,"body":"they're all receivable then,"},{"startTime":3046.109,"endTime":3047.397,"body":"because they're based on technology."},{"startTime":3047.397,"endTime":3048.99,"body":"- And it's all based on technology,"},{"startTime":3048.99,"endTime":3052.77,"body":"so the answer is technology is making"},{"startTime":3052.77,"endTime":3057.083,"body":"a significant impact on the"},{"startTime":3052.77,"endTime":3057.083,"body":"nature of criminal trials"},{"startTime":3057.083,"endTime":3059.43,"body":"than in the past whereby"},{"startTime":3059.43,"endTime":3062.91,"body":"the prosecution was"},{"startTime":3059.43,"endTime":3062.91,"body":"put very much to proof."},{"startTime":3062.91,"endTime":3064.23,"body":"- Interesting."},{"startTime":3062.91,"endTime":3064.23,"body":"- Technology's steppin' in"},{"startTime":3064.23,"endTime":3065.853,"body":"and answering those questions."},{"startTime":3067.24,"endTime":3070.23,"body":"- [Audience Member] The Truth"},{"startTime":3067.24,"endTime":3070.23,"body":"and Reconciliation Commission,"},{"startTime":3070.23,"endTime":3073.29,"body":"is that a part of restorative justice?"},{"startTime":3073.29,"endTime":3075.947,"body":"- Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation..."},{"startTime":3075.947,"endTime":3080.22,"body":"Are you talking about South"},{"startTime":3075.947,"endTime":3080.22,"body":"African model after apartheid?"},{"startTime":3080.22,"endTime":3084.69,"body":"That was very much a very good example"},{"startTime":3084.69,"endTime":3087.54,"body":"of restorative justice, whereby,"},{"startTime":3087.54,"endTime":3091.99,"body":"you had, I dunno if you remember watching"},{"startTime":3093.66,"endTime":3098.1,"body":"all these major figures"},{"startTime":3093.66,"endTime":3098.1,"body":"during the apartheid regime"},{"startTime":3098.1,"endTime":3099.88,"body":"come in and givin' an account"},{"startTime":3100.74,"endTime":3103.71,"body":"in relation to their role"},{"startTime":3100.74,"endTime":3103.71,"body":"and their involvement"},{"startTime":3103.71,"endTime":3107.91,"body":"and how the theory goes,"},{"startTime":3107.91,"endTime":3112.91,"body":"that was providing closure"},{"startTime":3107.91,"endTime":3112.91,"body":"for many of the individuals,"},{"startTime":3113.73,"endTime":3116.01,"body":"particularly many of the"},{"startTime":3113.73,"endTime":3116.01,"body":"victims who had suffered."},{"startTime":3116.01,"endTime":3118.83,"body":"And it was very powerful,"},{"startTime":3116.01,"endTime":3118.83,"body":"some of the testimony,"},{"startTime":3118.83,"endTime":3123.81,"body":"and allowing some of the victims to speak"},{"startTime":3123.81,"endTime":3126.613,"body":"and say what they went through was also"},{"startTime":3126.613,"endTime":3131.613,"body":"a very, very important part"},{"startTime":3126.613,"endTime":3131.613,"body":"of that restorative justice"},{"startTime":3132.09,"endTime":3134.973,"body":"and closure and accountability."},{"startTime":3135.87,"endTime":3139.75,"body":"And in fact, we're beginning to see"},{"startTime":3141.36,"endTime":3143.67,"body":"some of that comin' in."},{"startTime":3143.67,"endTime":3148.67,"body":"So in our criminal system,"},{"startTime":3149.16,"endTime":3153.21,"body":"you have victim impact statements."},{"startTime":3153.21,"endTime":3158.21,"body":"So, after conviction, as part"},{"startTime":3153.21,"endTime":3158.21,"body":"of the sentencing process,"},{"startTime":3159.78,"endTime":3163.32,"body":"victims are able to make a statement"},{"startTime":3163.32,"endTime":3165.99,"body":"and talk about the impact"},{"startTime":3165.99,"endTime":3169.74,"body":"that the offense has had on their lives."},{"startTime":3169.74,"endTime":3171.49,"body":"And this is really important"},{"startTime":3173.34,"endTime":3177.36,"body":"and something that I know"},{"startTime":3173.34,"endTime":3177.36,"body":"makes a big difference"},{"startTime":3177.36,"endTime":3180.907,"body":"to many victims, that"},{"startTime":3177.36,"endTime":3180.907,"body":"ability to say to a judge,"},{"startTime":3180.907,"endTime":3184.17,"body":"\"This is what this offense has had on me.\""},{"startTime":3184.17,"endTime":3188.1,"body":"So this is all part of a"},{"startTime":3184.17,"endTime":3188.1,"body":"process of restorative justice,"},{"startTime":3188.1,"endTime":3191.64,"body":"and as I said, is it's part"},{"startTime":3188.1,"endTime":3191.64,"body":"of an adjunct, isn't it,"},{"startTime":3191.64,"endTime":3193.62,"body":"on our existing system."},{"startTime":3193.62,"endTime":3195.977,"body":"- [Audience Member] Is"},{"startTime":3193.62,"endTime":3195.977,"body":"there an admission of guilt"},{"startTime":3195.977,"endTime":3199.47,"body":"for the (indistinct)?"},{"startTime":3199.47,"endTime":3204.33,"body":"- Well, as I indicated,"},{"startTime":3199.47,"endTime":3204.33,"body":"restorative justice only works"},{"startTime":3204.33,"endTime":3209.1,"body":"insofar as the offender"},{"startTime":3209.1,"endTime":3212.133,"body":"is willing to participate and cooperate."},{"startTime":3216.378,"endTime":3218.67,"body":"That's one of the problems"},{"startTime":3218.67,"endTime":3220.71,"body":"with a restorative justice approach."},{"startTime":3220.71,"endTime":3225.24,"body":"If you have an offender who isn't,"},{"startTime":3225.24,"endTime":3229.593,"body":"continues to deny, even though"},{"startTime":3225.24,"endTime":3229.593,"body":"they may have been convicted,"},{"startTime":3231.57,"endTime":3236.57,"body":"as some defendants do, it"},{"startTime":3231.57,"endTime":3236.57,"body":"makes it very difficult."},{"startTime":3241.2,"endTime":3243.48,"body":"- [Audience Member] In"},{"startTime":3241.2,"endTime":3243.48,"body":"these days of increased"},{"startTime":3243.48,"endTime":3246.693,"body":"or improved technology,"},{"startTime":3243.48,"endTime":3246.693,"body":"social media and so forth,"},{"startTime":3248.25,"endTime":3249.63,"body":"this might sound controversial,"},{"startTime":3249.63,"endTime":3253.44,"body":"but can you see a shelf life"},{"startTime":3249.63,"endTime":3253.44,"body":"to the conventional jury"},{"startTime":3253.44,"endTime":3254.74,"body":"that we've become used to?"},{"startTime":3256.582,"endTime":3257.74,"body":"- Wooie."},{"startTime":3257.74,"endTime":3260.657,"body":"(people chuckling)"},{"startTime":3262.59,"endTime":3264.93,"body":"It's interesting because it's a debate"},{"startTime":3264.93,"endTime":3268.743,"body":"that every few years comes up."},{"startTime":3269.67,"endTime":3271.54,"body":"And the last time"},{"startTime":3274.98,"endTime":3278.05,"body":"that question arose was during lockdown"},{"startTime":3279.84,"endTime":3284.84,"body":"as a result of the backlog"},{"startTime":3279.84,"endTime":3284.84,"body":"of criminal trials,"},{"startTime":3285.75,"endTime":3289.11,"body":"and, number one, and number two,"},{"startTime":3289.11,"endTime":3294.11,"body":"because of the risk of"},{"startTime":3289.11,"endTime":3294.11,"body":"infection from COVID"},{"startTime":3294.39,"endTime":3296.61,"body":"and having jurors together."},{"startTime":3296.61,"endTime":3301.44,"body":"And so that was hotly"},{"startTime":3296.61,"endTime":3301.44,"body":"debated in 2020 and 2021,"},{"startTime":3303.091,"endTime":3308.091,"body":"certainly within my profession, the bar."},{"startTime":3309.54,"endTime":3314.1,"body":"And there's a strong objection to it."},{"startTime":3314.1,"endTime":3318.563,"body":"Now it should be remembered that juries"},{"startTime":3319.83,"endTime":3323.88,"body":"make up a very tiny"},{"startTime":3319.83,"endTime":3323.88,"body":"proportion of criminal cases."},{"startTime":3323.88,"endTime":3326.033,"body":"I think it's something like 3%."},{"startTime":3327.06,"endTime":3328.62,"body":"Something like 3%,"},{"startTime":3328.62,"endTime":3332.1,"body":"if my memory serves me right."},{"startTime":3332.1,"endTime":3335.91,"body":"The vast majority of"},{"startTime":3332.1,"endTime":3335.91,"body":"criminal cases are dealt with"},{"startTime":3335.91,"endTime":3337.263,"body":"in the magistrate's court."},{"startTime":3338.76,"endTime":3343.76,"body":"But there is such passion about"},{"startTime":3338.76,"endTime":3343.76,"body":"jurors and retaining them."},{"startTime":3345.81,"endTime":3347.58,"body":"And if you, didn't see,"},{"startTime":3347.58,"endTime":3352.58,"body":"I, actually in this"},{"startTime":3347.58,"endTime":3352.58,"body":"reimagining the law series,"},{"startTime":3352.68,"endTime":3355.353,"body":"I think it was my second lecture, was,"},{"startTime":3356.28,"endTime":3358.2,"body":"do we need juries?"},{"startTime":3358.2,"endTime":3362.79,"body":"And you can watch that"},{"startTime":3358.2,"endTime":3362.79,"body":"online if you haven't seen it"},{"startTime":3362.79,"endTime":3364.885,"body":"and see what my conclusions are."},{"startTime":3364.885,"endTime":3369.0,"body":"But in short, I would say this,"},{"startTime":3369.0,"endTime":3374.0,"body":"that I can't see jurors"},{"startTime":3369.0,"endTime":3374.0,"body":"leavin' us anytime soon."},{"startTime":3377.7,"endTime":3382.7,"body":"This such strong feelin' for jury justice."},{"startTime":3383.16,"endTime":3385.35,"body":"And interestingly, can I just end on this?"},{"startTime":3385.35,"endTime":3390.35,"body":"And it was interesting when I looked at"},{"startTime":3390.9,"endTime":3395.9,"body":"some of the conviction rates"},{"startTime":3390.9,"endTime":3395.9,"body":"comparing judges and juries,"},{"startTime":3398.22,"endTime":3403.22,"body":"particularly when it comes to racial bias,"},{"startTime":3403.23,"endTime":3408.23,"body":"and interestingly the 2017"},{"startTime":3403.23,"endTime":3408.23,"body":"Lammy report into disparity,"},{"startTime":3411.03,"endTime":3414.72,"body":"racial disparities found that"},{"startTime":3414.72,"endTime":3418.95,"body":"judges have a greater problem than juries"},{"startTime":3418.95,"endTime":3421.339,"body":"when it comes to racial bias."},{"startTime":3421.339,"endTime":3423.453,"body":"That's interestin'."},{"startTime":3423.453,"endTime":3424.286,"body":"- [Audience Member] Thank you."},{"startTime":3424.286,"endTime":3425.532,"body":"- [Host] Couple of more questions,"},{"startTime":3425.532,"endTime":3426.48,"body":"perhaps."},{"startTime":3425.532,"endTime":3426.48,"body":"- Yeah, couple more questions."},{"startTime":3426.48,"endTime":3427.77,"body":"- [Host] Yeah?"},{"startTime":3427.77,"endTime":3429.33,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3429.33,"endTime":3432.18,"body":"- [Audience Member] In"},{"startTime":3429.33,"endTime":3432.18,"body":"overcoming the shortcomings"},{"startTime":3432.18,"endTime":3433.5,"body":"of the adversarial system,"},{"startTime":3433.5,"endTime":3436.2,"body":"do you see any role to be played in"},{"startTime":3436.2,"endTime":3438.99,"body":"essentially making the"},{"startTime":3436.2,"endTime":3438.99,"body":"police more truth focused"},{"startTime":3438.99,"endTime":3440.61,"body":"rather than suspect focused"},{"startTime":3440.61,"endTime":3442.62,"body":"through things like duty to disclose"},{"startTime":3442.62,"endTime":3446.64,"body":"or duty to investigate"},{"startTime":3442.62,"endTime":3446.64,"body":"alternate lines of inquiry,"},{"startTime":3446.64,"endTime":3447.93,"body":"that kind of thing?"},{"startTime":3447.93,"endTime":3451.323,"body":"- Yeah, interesting question."},{"startTime":3452.16,"endTime":3456.567,"body":"It would really take, as in this series,"},{"startTime":3458.55,"endTime":3461.22,"body":"a re-imaginin', a real change"},{"startTime":3461.22,"endTime":3463.383,"body":"of policing culture to do that."},{"startTime":3467.61,"endTime":3468.56,"body":"Given..."},{"startTime":3470.55,"endTime":3471.383,"body":"It's an interesting question."},{"startTime":3471.383,"endTime":3473.46,"body":"I think it's something that"},{"startTime":3473.46,"endTime":3477.09,"body":"certainly would be a step"},{"startTime":3473.46,"endTime":3477.09,"body":"in the right direction."},{"startTime":3477.09,"endTime":3480.55,"body":"So I certainly believe,"},{"startTime":3477.09,"endTime":3480.55,"body":"but given the fact that"},{"startTime":3482.22,"endTime":3485.82,"body":"changin' the culture of an institution"},{"startTime":3485.82,"endTime":3487.71,"body":"like the police is just so difficult,"},{"startTime":3487.71,"endTime":3489.033,"body":"and we can see that,"},{"startTime":3490.17,"endTime":3493.803,"body":"in several respects with"},{"startTime":3490.17,"endTime":3493.803,"body":"issues about misogyny,"},{"startTime":3494.67,"endTime":3498.984,"body":"homophobia, racism, and the list goes on."},{"startTime":3498.984,"endTime":3502.74,"body":"And that's, don't take that as an opinion."},{"startTime":3502.74,"endTime":3507.74,"body":"We just need to look at"},{"startTime":3502.74,"endTime":3507.74,"body":"Sarah Everard, Wayne Couzens,"},{"startTime":3508.41,"endTime":3512.37,"body":"the Charing Cross WhatsApp"},{"startTime":3508.41,"endTime":3512.37,"body":"policing group messages,"},{"startTime":3512.37,"endTime":3516.9,"body":"and the WhatsApp messages"},{"startTime":3512.37,"endTime":3516.9,"body":"relating to Wayne Couzens"},{"startTime":3516.9,"endTime":3521.765,"body":"and the indecent exposure case."},{"startTime":3521.765,"endTime":3524.4,"body":"There's tons of evidence that's shown that"},{"startTime":3524.4,"endTime":3528.6,"body":"there's real difficulty in"},{"startTime":3524.4,"endTime":3528.6,"body":"sort of changing this culture."},{"startTime":3528.6,"endTime":3529.86,"body":"I think that would..."},{"startTime":3529.86,"endTime":3532.11,"body":"I think yes, certainly,"},{"startTime":3532.11,"endTime":3534.78,"body":"I would certainly be"},{"startTime":3532.11,"endTime":3534.78,"body":"advocating that's a road"},{"startTime":3534.78,"endTime":3536.43,"body":"we should be going down."},{"startTime":3536.43,"endTime":3539.823,"body":"Whether it's achievable"},{"startTime":3536.43,"endTime":3539.823,"body":"anytime soon, I doubt it."},{"startTime":3541.17,"endTime":3542.003,"body":"- Thank you-"},{"startTime":3541.17,"endTime":3542.003,"body":"- Should we take"},{"startTime":3542.003,"endTime":3542.836,"body":"one more question?"},{"startTime":3542.836,"endTime":3543.893,"body":"- One more question."},{"startTime":3542.836,"endTime":3543.893,"body":"- One more question."},{"startTime":3546.21,"endTime":3547.8,"body":"- [Audience Member] Yeah,"},{"startTime":3546.21,"endTime":3547.8,"body":"my question is a follow up"},{"startTime":3547.8,"endTime":3549.36,"body":"to what you've just said."},{"startTime":3549.36,"endTime":3553.74,"body":"How much do you think there's"},{"startTime":3549.36,"endTime":3553.74,"body":"any kind of culture of"},{"startTime":3553.74,"endTime":3557.07,"body":"institutionalized racism or misogyny"},{"startTime":3557.07,"endTime":3559.023,"body":"within the criminal justice system?"},{"startTime":3564.63,"endTime":3568.38,"body":"- Again, (laughing) it's a"},{"startTime":3564.63,"endTime":3568.38,"body":"question that I touched upon"},{"startTime":3568.38,"endTime":3571.32,"body":"in the Re-imagining series."},{"startTime":3571.32,"endTime":3573.693,"body":"Do we need judges, do we need barristers?"},{"startTime":3575.1,"endTime":3577.83,"body":"And I did that couple of lectures back,"},{"startTime":3577.83,"endTime":3580.5,"body":"and the answer is I think"},{"startTime":3577.83,"endTime":3580.5,"body":"there's a lot of misogyny"},{"startTime":3580.5,"endTime":3584.91,"body":"and I think there's a lot of"},{"startTime":3580.5,"endTime":3584.91,"body":"racism within the systems."},{"startTime":3584.91,"endTime":3586.35,"body":"because it's an institution,"},{"startTime":3586.35,"endTime":3588.993,"body":"and if you just look at the institutions,"},{"startTime":3590.22,"endTime":3593.207,"body":"and you just look at the numbers"},{"startTime":3593.207,"endTime":3596.043,"body":"and you look at who's judging,"},{"startTime":3600.33,"endTime":3602.46,"body":"the facts speak for themselves."},{"startTime":3602.46,"endTime":3605.7,"body":"Although there's a recognition..."},{"startTime":3605.7,"endTime":3609.72,"body":"In fact, let me add some meat to the bone,"},{"startTime":3609.72,"endTime":3612.21,"body":"so it's not just an opinion"},{"startTime":3612.21,"endTime":3613.92,"body":"that it looks like I'm espousing."},{"startTime":3613.92,"endTime":3616.38,"body":"There was a Manchester University,"},{"startTime":3616.38,"endTime":3620.97,"body":"a recent report on judicial bias and race,"},{"startTime":3620.97,"endTime":3625.297,"body":"and that report came"},{"startTime":3620.97,"endTime":3625.297,"body":"out in November of 2022"},{"startTime":3627.57,"endTime":3630.78,"body":"by K. Monteith, King's Council,"},{"startTime":3630.78,"endTime":3635.4,"body":"and a group of academics"},{"startTime":3630.78,"endTime":3635.4,"body":"at Manchester University."},{"startTime":3635.4,"endTime":3637.56,"body":"Fascinating reading."},{"startTime":3637.56,"endTime":3641.22,"body":"Absolutely fascinating reading about,"},{"startTime":3641.22,"endTime":3646.22,"body":"shown clear evidence"},{"startTime":3641.22,"endTime":3646.22,"body":"of judicial racial bias"},{"startTime":3646.59,"endTime":3649.02,"body":"when it comes to the treatment,"},{"startTime":3649.02,"endTime":3652.41,"body":"not only of individuals"},{"startTime":3652.41,"endTime":3655.62,"body":"who happen to be caught up in"},{"startTime":3652.41,"endTime":3655.62,"body":"the criminal justice system,"},{"startTime":3655.62,"endTime":3657.21,"body":"but also of the practitioners"},{"startTime":3657.21,"endTime":3659.58,"body":"and the experience of practitioners,"},{"startTime":3659.58,"endTime":3661.98,"body":"black and brown practitioners"},{"startTime":3659.58,"endTime":3661.98,"body":"within the system."},{"startTime":3663.54,"endTime":3665.28,"body":"I think we're going to"},{"startTime":3663.54,"endTime":3665.28,"body":"have to leave it there."},{"startTime":3665.28,"endTime":3666.446,"body":"- Well, thank you very much."},{"startTime":3666.446,"endTime":3667.478,"body":"Thank you very much, Professor Thomas."},{"startTime":3667.478,"endTime":3670.728,"body":"(audience applauding)"}]}