{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.955,"endTime":7.845,"body":"What a pleasure to be here at Gresham College."},{"startTime":8.045,"endTime":12.805,"body":"I, I am usually on the other side of that screen watching these, uh, lectures."},{"startTime":13.345,"endTime":17.525,"body":"Um, so I feel very honored to have been invited, um, to speak to you."},{"startTime":18.265,"endTime":25.015,"body":"Um, Gresham College was founded in 1597, so this is an Elizabethan, um, institution, but,"},{"startTime":25.015,"endTime":25.465,"body":"um, it also coincided with the reign of Shahab bas the great, uh, perhaps one"},{"startTime":25.465,"endTime":25.915,"body":"of the greatest monarchs of Persian history, uh, an era of great flourishing of Persian"},{"startTime":25.915,"endTime":38.965,"body":"culture."},{"startTime":39.705,"endTime":44.062,"body":"Um, any of you who've ever been to Isfahan, you will have seen the magnificence"},{"startTime":44.062,"endTime":45.805,"body":"of the, of the Vid Dynasty."},{"startTime":45.945,"endTime":47.725,"body":"So I take that as a very good omen."},{"startTime":48.625,"endTime":55.045,"body":"Um, unfortunately, we are not speaking at the best of times for either my, uh,"},{"startTime":55.045,"endTime":59.325,"body":"adopted country Britain, or indeed for my homeland, um, Iran."},{"startTime":59.425,"endTime":64.685,"body":"But I will endeavor, uh, to fulfill the brief that I've been given."},{"startTime":65.665,"endTime":70.485,"body":"Um, I had about five centuries of Iranian history to choose from."},{"startTime":71.145,"endTime":75.525,"body":"Uh, you'll be relieved that I won't be galloping through all five centuries this evening."},{"startTime":76.145,"endTime":82.07,"body":"Um, instead, I, I to compliment the lectures by my other colleagues, I'm going to"},{"startTime":82.07,"endTime":84.045,"body":"focus on the 1979 Revolution."},{"startTime":84.145,"endTime":88.978,"body":"And rather than trying to give you a whole history of the revolution, I thought"},{"startTime":88.978,"endTime":89.301,"body":"I would speak instead about the way in which the revolution was read and misread,"},{"startTime":89.301,"endTime":89.623,"body":"um, here in Britain, in the United States, um, and, and throughout the West, because"},{"startTime":89.623,"endTime":89.945,"body":"I thought that would be particularly relevant to us in the moment that we're living"},{"startTime":89.945,"endTime":104.125,"body":"through now."},{"startTime":105.465,"endTime":115.59,"body":"Um, on the, uh, 16th of January, 1979, uh, Mohammad Reza, the last Sha Iran"},{"startTime":115.59,"endTime":116.265,"body":"went into exile, uh, following more than a year of nationwide protests, um, in Iran"},{"startTime":116.265,"endTime":127.065,"body":"throughout 1978."},{"startTime":127.645,"endTime":132.427,"body":"It was the largest and most significant popular revolution in the modern history of the"},{"startTime":132.427,"endTime":133.065,"body":"Middle East."},{"startTime":134.685,"endTime":139.953,"body":"Um, it was also the single greatest setback for the United States in the Middle"},{"startTime":139.953,"endTime":143.115,"body":"East during the entire history of the Cold War."},{"startTime":144.215,"endTime":151.035,"body":"Um, but it was a revolution that was very poorly understood at the time."},{"startTime":152.255,"endTime":159.237,"body":"And 44 years later is still quite misunderstood, um, for a whole variety of, um,"},{"startTime":159.237,"endTime":159.703,"body":"reasons the nature of the revolution, a rejection of modernization and secularization under the Shah,"},{"startTime":159.703,"endTime":170.875,"body":"and its call for the establishment of an Islamic state."},{"startTime":171.415,"endTime":174.235,"body":"The Islamic Republic caught the world by surprise."},{"startTime":176.325,"endTime":184.666,"body":"If you think of all the revolutions, the great revolutions that had preceded the Iranian"},{"startTime":184.666,"endTime":185.222,"body":"revolution, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution, the Cuban"},{"startTime":185.222,"endTime":185.778,"body":"Revolution, um, all of these had been grounded very much in the values of the"},{"startTime":185.778,"endTime":204.685,"body":"enlightenment, uh, emancipation, liberation, justice equality."},{"startTime":205.495,"endTime":207.125,"body":"These were universal values."},{"startTime":208.625,"endTime":213.165,"body":"The values of these enlightenment revolutions were for the whole of humanity."},{"startTime":215.075,"endTime":217.725,"body":"This was not the case with the Iranian revolution."},{"startTime":220.105,"endTime":226.675,"body":"It was a revolution that was specific to one particular culture, one particular country, and"},{"startTime":226.675,"endTime":227.114,"body":"one particular time, and did not speak to any universal values beyond the borders of"},{"startTime":227.114,"endTime":233.685,"body":"Iran."},{"startTime":235.265,"endTime":244.031,"body":"The Iranian Revolution represented a, a rejection of those enlightenment values, and indeed, a return"},{"startTime":244.031,"endTime":251.045,"body":"to some invented notion of authentic Shia Islam or authentic Iranian ness."},{"startTime":252.385,"endTime":261.885,"body":"Um, the Revolution reimagined shiism as a revolutionary rather than reactionary form of political Islam."},{"startTime":262.905,"endTime":268.798,"body":"Um, this was not an ideology that could be exported because Iran was the only"},{"startTime":268.798,"endTime":269.191,"body":"Shia majority, uh, only Shia state, and really the only Shia majority country at that"},{"startTime":269.191,"endTime":275.085,"body":"time."},{"startTime":276.105,"endTime":282.845,"body":"Um, uh, it had little resonance or impact beyond Iran."},{"startTime":283.025,"endTime":292.4,"body":"Unlike the major revolutions of the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, the religious revivalism of"},{"startTime":292.4,"endTime":298.025,"body":"the Iranian revolution surprised and confounded most international observers."},{"startTime":298.135,"endTime":304.823,"body":"None of our models of revolution anticipated that a revolution would be led by clerics,"},{"startTime":304.823,"endTime":307.945,"body":"or that its content would be religious."},{"startTime":309.005,"endTime":316.46,"body":"Um, both the sympathizers of the Shah and the critics of the Shah, uh, and"},{"startTime":316.46,"endTime":316.957,"body":"his modernizing vision of Iran failed to anticipate a, a mass popular uprising under the"},{"startTime":316.957,"endTime":325.905,"body":"banner of Shia Islam."},{"startTime":326.335,"endTime":332.696,"body":"They saw the primary threat to the Shah as emanating from the Marxist left, uh,"},{"startTime":332.696,"endTime":337.785,"body":"which had been, in reality, thoroughly defeated by the Shah's security forces."},{"startTime":338.245,"endTime":345.132,"body":"By the time we got, um, to the 1970s, the assumption of both the Shah's"},{"startTime":345.132,"endTime":345.591,"body":"critics and opponents was that even if a revolutionary momentum, uh, was to gain momentum,"},{"startTime":345.591,"endTime":346.05,"body":"you know, even if a revolutionary movement was to gain momentum in Iran, um, it"},{"startTime":346.05,"endTime":360.285,"body":"would be crushed."},{"startTime":361.185,"endTime":366.871,"body":"It would be crushed by the, uh, security service sak, or by the very well"},{"startTime":366.871,"endTime":369.525,"body":"equipped and armed, uh, Iranian armed forces."},{"startTime":370.465,"endTime":377.945,"body":"Um, virtually nobody, including the people in my position, including people in government, uh, anticipated"},{"startTime":377.945,"endTime":378.444,"body":"or imagined the possibility, uh, that the Shah would fall and to go into, into"},{"startTime":378.444,"endTime":385.925,"body":"exile"},{"startTime":387.595,"endTime":393.65,"body":"When the victory of the revolution became apparent, when it became clear that the Shah"},{"startTime":393.65,"endTime":394.053,"body":"was going to fall, and something new was going to emerge in Iran, these same"},{"startTime":394.053,"endTime":394.457,"body":"observers, the same observers who'd failed to predict that revolution, were shocked and surprised by"},{"startTime":394.457,"endTime":410.605,"body":"the horror that was to unfold under Khomeini and the Islamic Republic."},{"startTime":413.355,"endTime":418.499,"body":"Even more so, nobody anticipated the impact that it would, that the fall of the"},{"startTime":418.499,"endTime":418.842,"body":"Shahs regime would have in terms of instability in the region, instability that by the"},{"startTime":418.842,"endTime":426.045,"body":"way, we're still living with, um, today."},{"startTime":427.145,"endTime":433.393,"body":"The failure to anticipate the revolution to predict its victory and to understand its anti-liberal"},{"startTime":433.393,"endTime":433.81,"body":"direction was a colossal failure on the part of Western governments, uh, but also on"},{"startTime":433.81,"endTime":441.725,"body":"the part of Western intellectuals."},{"startTime":442.985,"endTime":448.868,"body":"The failure becomes even more apparent if we consider the scale of the disaster that"},{"startTime":448.868,"endTime":450.045,"body":"unfolded after 1979."},{"startTime":452.035,"endTime":458.481,"body":"Miss some of you will remember the Tehran Hostage crisis and the way that it"},{"startTime":458.481,"endTime":458.911,"body":"crippled the presidency of Jimmy Carter, uh, and in effect denied Jimmy Carter a second"},{"startTime":458.911,"endTime":470.085,"body":"term as President, ushering in two terms of Ronald Reagan as president."},{"startTime":471.065,"endTime":476.977,"body":"Others will remember the Iran Iraq War, the eight year war between Iran and Iraq,"},{"startTime":476.977,"endTime":480.525,"body":"with over a million casualties that bankrupted both countries."},{"startTime":482.085,"endTime":487.769,"body":"I would even argue that the 1991 Persian Gulf War was another outcome of the"},{"startTime":487.769,"endTime":489.285,"body":"fall of the Shah."},{"startTime":489.385,"endTime":494.853,"body":"The lessons that Saddam drew from the Western reaction to the Iran Iraq War encouraged"},{"startTime":494.853,"endTime":497.405,"body":"him to invade Iraq, uh, in 1990."},{"startTime":499.265,"endTime":503.868,"body":"So, the question I'm posing tonight is why were American and British decision makers so"},{"startTime":503.868,"endTime":507.245,"body":"reluctant to see that the fall of the Shah was coming?"},{"startTime":508.225,"endTime":512.365,"body":"Why were some Western intellectuals celebrating the fall of the Shah?"},{"startTime":513.105,"endTime":518.164,"body":"Why were other western intellectuals so reluctant to acknowledge that they'd got the revolution wrong?"},{"startTime":519.105,"endTime":523.289,"body":"And what kind of lessons does this afford us today as we look at events,"},{"startTime":523.289,"endTime":524.405,"body":"um, in the region?"},{"startTime":527.345,"endTime":529.365,"body":"Let me start with the Americans."},{"startTime":531.555,"endTime":537.688,"body":"Initially, the United States seemed to get Iran right in the early days, uh, of"},{"startTime":537.688,"endTime":543.005,"body":"the US Iran relationship, going all the way back to the 19th century."},{"startTime":543.115,"endTime":549.078,"body":"When Protestant American missionaries began to go to Iran, Americans were terribly sympathetic to the"},{"startTime":549.078,"endTime":549.475,"body":"aspirations of Iranians, the, the, the ideals of the, the dreams of Iranians for national"},{"startTime":549.475,"endTime":561.005,"body":"sovereignty, for constitutionalism, the things that my colleague Ali Ansari spoke about here in October."},{"startTime":562.025,"endTime":566.205,"body":"Um, there was even an American martyr in the Constitutional Revolution."},{"startTime":566.765,"endTime":572.21,"body":"A young man called Howard Baskerville, a young Princeton graduate who went to Iran as"},{"startTime":572.21,"endTime":572.573,"body":"a missionary, was teaching young Iranians in a missionary school, formed his students up into"},{"startTime":572.573,"endTime":581.285,"body":"a battalion, and actually died during the siege of Tabriz."},{"startTime":581.985,"endTime":584.405,"body":"Um, and he is remembered as a hero in Iran."},{"startTime":585.305,"endTime":592.317,"body":"Um, in the Second World War, Iranians look to the United States as an alternative"},{"startTime":592.317,"endTime":596.525,"body":"to the imperialism of Britain and the Soviet Union."},{"startTime":597.425,"endTime":602.885,"body":"Um, they hoped that the, uh, United States would stand on the side of Iran"},{"startTime":602.885,"endTime":603.249,"body":"as it tried to preserve its independence in the face of first European colonialism, and"},{"startTime":603.249,"endTime":610.165,"body":"then subsequently the Cold War."},{"startTime":610.425,"endTime":612.285,"body":"And at first, it seemed that this would be the case."},{"startTime":612.335,"endTime":618.247,"body":"Harry Truman, president Truman defended Iran in the face of Soviet aggression in 1946 when"},{"startTime":618.247,"endTime":623.765,"body":"Stalin had occupied northern Iran and refused to withdraw his troops after the war."},{"startTime":623.765,"endTime":628.231,"body":"It was the United States that stood up for Iranian sovereignty and the newly created"},{"startTime":628.231,"endTime":629.125,"body":"UN Security Council."},{"startTime":630.145,"endTime":637.375,"body":"But all these hopes and dreams and aspirations were vanquished in 1953, when Britain and"},{"startTime":637.375,"endTime":644.605,"body":"the United States supported a covert coup, uh, to topple the government of Mohammad Mossad."},{"startTime":645.105,"endTime":651.93,"body":"Mossad was a Iranian nationalist, a constitutionalist, and a liberal, um, who, uh, had of"},{"startTime":651.93,"endTime":652.385,"body":"course done the great sin of nationalizing the British owned Iranian oil industry, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":652.385,"endTime":665.125,"body":"and he remains a sort of anti-colonial hero to Iranians and, and, and beyond."},{"startTime":665.185,"endTime":669.073,"body":"But that was the moment at which the United States began to get it wrong"},{"startTime":669.073,"endTime":671.925,"body":"in Iran and found itself on the wrong side of history."},{"startTime":672.905,"endTime":679.359,"body":"Um, the, the image began to grow of the Shah as a kind of client"},{"startTime":679.359,"endTime":679.79,"body":"instrument of the United States, a client who did the bidding of his masters in"},{"startTime":679.79,"endTime":686.245,"body":"Washington."},{"startTime":686.745,"endTime":690.759,"body":"But as time went on in the sixties and seventies, it be, this was, this"},{"startTime":690.759,"endTime":692.365,"body":"was not an accurate picture, actually."},{"startTime":692.365,"endTime":694.085,"body":"The Shah's autonomy began to grow."},{"startTime":694.145,"endTime":698.6,"body":"He began to defy the United States in many ways, particularly on oil prices and,"},{"startTime":698.6,"endTime":700.085,"body":"and, uh, and other issues."},{"startTime":701.145,"endTime":706.885,"body":"Um, America's constituency in Iran was reduced to just one man."},{"startTime":706.905,"endTime":711.969,"body":"The Shah and US Iran relations was reduced to simply the question of dealing with"},{"startTime":711.969,"endTime":712.645,"body":"the Shah."},{"startTime":713.545,"endTime":719.073,"body":"Uh, uh, the assumption on the part of Ameri on, on of American officials was"},{"startTime":719.073,"endTime":721.285,"body":"always that the Shah was strong."},{"startTime":722.225,"endTime":722.885,"body":"He was wealthy."},{"startTime":723.785,"endTime":729.629,"body":"He was backed by a powerful security force and a well armed army, um, and"},{"startTime":729.629,"endTime":735.085,"body":"that, uh, he would be able to survive, uh, whatever crisis came his way."},{"startTime":735.625,"endTime":740.325,"body":"Um, and that was largely the case throughout the 1960s, um, and 1970s."},{"startTime":741.275,"endTime":746.45,"body":"What they failed to see was the crisis of legitimacy that the Shah faced after"},{"startTime":746.45,"endTime":747.485,"body":"the 1953 coup."},{"startTime":748.465,"endTime":754.144,"body":"The way in which the Monarch, who is supposed to embody Iranian nationalism, who is"},{"startTime":754.144,"endTime":754.523,"body":"supposed to embody the aspirations of Iranians for na, for national sovereignty, um, had instead"},{"startTime":754.523,"endTime":765.125,"body":"become the embodiment of foreign interference in Iran and foreign manipulation, um, of Iran."},{"startTime":767.305,"endTime":772.365,"body":"The other misreading that took place was the assumption that the Shah would hold onto"},{"startTime":772.365,"endTime":772.702,"body":"power, by all means that he would do whatever was necessary to hold onto power,"},{"startTime":772.702,"endTime":782.485,"body":"uh, which of course, as it turned out in the revolution was not the case."},{"startTime":782.905,"endTime":786.885,"body":"Um, and he relinquished the throne, uh, and left the country."},{"startTime":789.455,"endTime":794.285,"body":"These, these misreadings, of course, become apparent during the administration of Jimmy Carter."},{"startTime":795.065,"endTime":801.325,"body":"Um, president Carter, uh, ends the policy of sort of uncritical support for the Shah."},{"startTime":801.865,"endTime":807.949,"body":"Um, there is talk of human rights, um, in Iran, and this, of course, is"},{"startTime":807.949,"endTime":812.005,"body":"in the context of the post-Watergate America post-Vietnam War America."},{"startTime":812.865,"endTime":818.247,"body":"Um, but it is not the case as, as many Iranians imagine that Carter abandoned"},{"startTime":818.247,"endTime":818.965,"body":"the Shah."},{"startTime":819.015,"endTime":820.685,"body":"There were no sanctions on Iran."},{"startTime":821.425,"endTime":823.965,"body":"Uh, arms continued to flow to Iran."},{"startTime":824.145,"endTime":826.925,"body":"Uh, oil sales continued to take place."},{"startTime":827.265,"endTime":831.765,"body":"Um, uh, this was very different to the policies that the Carter administration instituted in"},{"startTime":831.765,"endTime":832.365,"body":"Latin America."},{"startTime":832.465,"endTime":836.678,"body":"For example, the policies that Carter had towards many of the right wing regimes in,"},{"startTime":836.678,"endTime":838.645,"body":"say, Argentina or Chile or other places."},{"startTime":839.545,"endTime":846.315,"body":"Um, nonetheless, there was a perception on the part of many Iranians that the United"},{"startTime":846.315,"endTime":846.766,"body":"States had, had enough of the Shah and was now pressuring him, uh, to either"},{"startTime":846.766,"endTime":856.245,"body":"leave or concede power to his opponents."},{"startTime":856.745,"endTime":861.73,"body":"And the, the sort of iconic image of that was the visit that the Shah"},{"startTime":861.73,"endTime":863.725,"body":"made to Washington in November, 1977."},{"startTime":863.865,"endTime":869.769,"body":"It was his last state visit to the United States, um, and his, uh, helicopter"},{"startTime":869.769,"endTime":872.525,"body":"touchdown, uh, uh, at the White House."},{"startTime":872.745,"endTime":878.061,"body":"Uh, and the usual arrival ceremony was supposed to take place on the South Lawn"},{"startTime":878.061,"endTime":881.605,"body":"with the military bands and the fanfare and the music."},{"startTime":882.145,"endTime":887.21,"body":"But of course, uh, he was greeted by thousands of Iranian students who were studying"},{"startTime":887.21,"endTime":887.548,"body":"in the United States who'd come to demonstrate against him, all arrayed, uh, along the"},{"startTime":887.548,"endTime":893.965,"body":"perimeter of the White House."},{"startTime":894.345,"endTime":900.895,"body":"Um, the Iranian government had shipped in some prosha demonstrators, uh, to, uh, to buck"},{"startTime":900.895,"endTime":902.205,"body":"up the Shah."},{"startTime":902.205,"endTime":907.83,"body":"And of course, quite naturally clashes begin to take place between these pro encounter sha"},{"startTime":907.83,"endTime":908.205,"body":"demonstrators, the Washington DC Parks Police, very, very nervous that these protesters might actually, uh,"},{"startTime":908.205,"endTime":908.58,"body":"uh, go over the barricades and into the White House, begin to fire tear gas"},{"startTime":908.58,"endTime":920.205,"body":"into the crowds."},{"startTime":921.305,"endTime":926.273,"body":"Now, very predictably, the wind picks up the tear gas, wafts it over the south"},{"startTime":926.273,"endTime":926.605,"body":"lawn of the White House, and you are left with a televised image of President"},{"startTime":926.605,"endTime":926.936,"body":"Carter and the Shah of Iran, with tears flowing down their faces, um, uh, at"},{"startTime":926.936,"endTime":937.205,"body":"the White House."},{"startTime":937.785,"endTime":943.59,"body":"You can imagine how that was interpreted by Iranians watching these proceedings live, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":943.59,"endTime":944.365,"body":"on television."},{"startTime":946.495,"endTime":948.525,"body":"There was an, there were divisions."},{"startTime":948.785,"endTime":952.755,"body":"The reality was that there were divisions within the Carter Administration about what to do"},{"startTime":952.755,"endTime":953.285,"body":"about Iran."},{"startTime":953.735,"endTime":958.703,"body":"There were the liberals who wanted to pressure the Shah to reform, uh, who were"},{"startTime":958.703,"endTime":961.685,"body":"sympathetic to the pro Mossek liberals, um, in Iran."},{"startTime":961.785,"endTime":966.613,"body":"And there were the Hawkes, uh, the people like Vic New Brzezinski, uh, who wanted"},{"startTime":966.613,"endTime":966.935,"body":"to support the Shah at all costs, and saw him as a vital anti-communist, um,"},{"startTime":966.935,"endTime":972.085,"body":"uh, bulwark."},{"startTime":972.625,"endTime":977.893,"body":"Um, the, the expectation amongst the doves, amongst those who wanted to pressure the Shah"},{"startTime":977.893,"endTime":981.405,"body":"was that the alternative to the Shah was a liberal."},{"startTime":981.715,"endTime":987.678,"body":"Iran was a constitutional, Iran was a return to the Iran of Mossad de again,"},{"startTime":987.678,"endTime":993.245,"body":"a misreading of, of, um, what was happening, um, uh, in, in, in Iran."},{"startTime":996.065,"endTime":999.405,"body":"Let me turn to things close to home."},{"startTime":1003.755,"endTime":1008.447,"body":"Britain, of course, was no longer the great power in Iran after the nationalization of"},{"startTime":1008.447,"endTime":1010.325,"body":"the, uh, Anglo Iranian oil company."},{"startTime":1010.475,"endTime":1016.63,"body":"What is today, British petroleum, uh, Britain had lost its position of dominance, um, um,"},{"startTime":1016.63,"endTime":1017.04,"body":"in Iran, and had ceded that influence to the Americans, um, nonetheless, a a myth"},{"startTime":1017.04,"endTime":1017.45,"body":"endured, which I'm sad to say, endures until today of the omniscient and omnipotent Perus"},{"startTime":1017.45,"endTime":1034.685,"body":"Albion, uh, that nothing happens in Iran without the consent of the British Ambassador."},{"startTime":1035.385,"endTime":1040.974,"body":"Um, and the old saying that if you lift the, the beard of the mullahs"},{"startTime":1040.974,"endTime":1046.565,"body":"underneath, it says, made in Britain, you know, \u003claugh\u003e, um, uh, this, this myth endured."},{"startTime":1047.105,"endTime":1053.5,"body":"Uh, whereas in reality, British diplomats in Tehran and other officials were really just concerns"},{"startTime":1053.5,"endTime":1056.485,"body":"with the grubby business of commercial contracts."},{"startTime":1057.105,"endTime":1061.932,"body":"Uh, a Britain that was not in very good, uh, economic, uh, in a not"},{"startTime":1061.932,"endTime":1062.254,"body":"a very good economic state in the 1970s, was really concerning itself with how to"},{"startTime":1062.254,"endTime":1062.575,"body":"get as much of the pie of Iran's oil income as possible, whether that was"},{"startTime":1062.575,"endTime":1074.805,"body":"armed sales or, uh, uh, other contracts for British industry."},{"startTime":1075.595,"endTime":1080.176,"body":"Britain, of course, had also withdrawn from the Persian Gulf as part of the greater"},{"startTime":1080.176,"endTime":1082.925,"body":"withdrawal east of sewers, uh, under the Wilson Administration."},{"startTime":1083.465,"endTime":1088.256,"body":"Um, and so, uh, there was really a sense amongst the Iranians, including of the"},{"startTime":1088.256,"endTime":1088.576,"body":"Shah himself, that Britain was in decline, that this was a former imperial power that"},{"startTime":1088.576,"endTime":1094.965,"body":"couldn't really push Iran around anymore."},{"startTime":1095.025,"endTime":1098.709,"body":"And the Shah actually kind of relished in, if you watch any of the interviews"},{"startTime":1098.709,"endTime":1098.955,"body":"he gave when he came to Britain, he sort of really enjoyed lecturing the British"},{"startTime":1098.955,"endTime":1099.201,"body":"and saying, oh, you don't work hard enough, and that's why you have an inflation"},{"startTime":1099.201,"endTime":1106.325,"body":"problem."},{"startTime":1106.505,"endTime":1111.912,"body":"And, you know, um, so no one in the British Embassy in Tehran, including a"},{"startTime":1111.912,"endTime":1112.273,"body":"series of British ambassadors, anticipated that there would be a revolutionary movement against the Shah,"},{"startTime":1112.273,"endTime":1120.205,"body":"or that the Shah would fall from power."},{"startTime":1120.905,"endTime":1126.239,"body":"And, uh, there was a report commissioned by, by David o after the Revolution, foreign"},{"startTime":1126.239,"endTime":1129.085,"body":"secretary David Owen, um, to look into this."},{"startTime":1129.265,"endTime":1133.302,"body":"Uh, it was written by a diplomat by the name of Nicholas Brown, and it's"},{"startTime":1133.302,"endTime":1135.725,"body":"now been declassified, and, and you can read it."},{"startTime":1136.345,"endTime":1141.778,"body":"Um, and Brown really concluded that the, that the foreign office shared many of the"},{"startTime":1141.778,"endTime":1146.125,"body":"same mistaken assumptions as the Americans, uh, when it came to Iran."},{"startTime":1146.125,"endTime":1150.109,"body":"And they were really no better and no worse than anyone else at failing to"},{"startTime":1150.109,"endTime":1152.765,"body":"predict, um, uh, what would take place, um, in Iran."},{"startTime":1154.465,"endTime":1157.165,"body":"Did anybody get it right in, in, in, in the uk?"},{"startTime":1157.165,"endTime":1158.325,"body":"That's a good question to ask."},{"startTime":1158.355,"endTime":1163.53,"body":"Well, within the governing labor party, there were those on the back benches of the"},{"startTime":1163.53,"endTime":1167.325,"body":"Labor Party, um, who were sort of dissenting voices on Iran."},{"startTime":1167.425,"endTime":1169.525,"body":"One of them, for example, was the late Robin Cook."},{"startTime":1170.265,"endTime":1172.005,"body":"Um, uh, but there were others."},{"startTime":1172.305,"endTime":1177.791,"body":"Um, but their dissent from British policy came not really from an analysis of what"},{"startTime":1177.791,"endTime":1178.157,"body":"was happening in Iran, but rather from their ideological position, which was an opposition to"},{"startTime":1178.157,"endTime":1186.205,"body":"American imperial, what they perceived as American imperialism."},{"startTime":1187.185,"endTime":1192.645,"body":"Um, there were those amongst the British left who were also highly critical of the"},{"startTime":1192.645,"endTime":1193.009,"body":"Shah most notably, uh, the late professor Fred Halliday, who was, uh, my late colleague"},{"startTime":1193.009,"endTime":1199.925,"body":"at the, at the LSE."},{"startTime":1200.505,"endTime":1205.856,"body":"Um, and also, uh, groups like Amnesty International, which of course were headquartered here in"},{"startTime":1205.856,"endTime":1206.213,"body":"London and were very critical of the human rights, um, situation, uh, in Iran, but"},{"startTime":1206.213,"endTime":1211.565,"body":"none."},{"startTime":1211.745,"endTime":1216.926,"body":"But the labor ministers, the labor government at the time, did not really take any"},{"startTime":1216.926,"endTime":1217.271,"body":"of these dissenting voices very seriously and dismiss them as, uh, ignorant of Britain's commercial"},{"startTime":1217.271,"endTime":1224.525,"body":"interests, britain's national interests, um, in Iran."},{"startTime":1225.385,"endTime":1230.557,"body":"The other key dissenting voice, which is something that is very familiar to Iranians, but"},{"startTime":1230.557,"endTime":1230.902,"body":"will be unknown to British audiences, is the role of the BBC Persian service, the"},{"startTime":1230.902,"endTime":1231.246,"body":"Persian language service of BBC World Radio, uh, which was staffed by many, uh, Persian"},{"startTime":1231.246,"endTime":1244.005,"body":"speaking journalists who were rather critical of the Shah."},{"startTime":1244.225,"endTime":1249.959,"body":"And, uh, in the broadcast that they made to Iranian Persian, uh, they would slip"},{"startTime":1249.959,"endTime":1250.341,"body":"in some rather, um, unflattering news about the Shah and some rather encouraging news about"},{"startTime":1250.341,"endTime":1257.605,"body":"the protests against the Shah."},{"startTime":1258.025,"endTime":1262.445,"body":"And this was the subject of repeated protests by the Shah to the British government."},{"startTime":1262.465,"endTime":1266.161,"body":"And the poor British ambassador would get summoned to the court after every one of"},{"startTime":1266.161,"endTime":1266.407,"body":"these broke broadcasts, and then he would send a telegram to the chairman of the"},{"startTime":1266.407,"endTime":1266.654,"body":"BBC, and the chairman of the BBC would dutifully say that we are an independent"},{"startTime":1266.654,"endTime":1275.525,"body":"service, and we won't bow to political pressure."},{"startTime":1276.425,"endTime":1280.325,"body":"Um, but this was the state of affairs in, in, in, in, in Britain."},{"startTime":1282.955,"endTime":1284.445,"body":"What about the intellectuals?"},{"startTime":1284.715,"endTime":1285.005,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":1287.665,"endTime":1292.856,"body":"The Shah had become a sort of, uh, hate figure for the new left, uh,"},{"startTime":1292.856,"endTime":1293.202,"body":"both in Britain and the United States, and, and, and in Europe, uh, particularly after"},{"startTime":1293.202,"endTime":1300.125,"body":"his visit to Berlin in 1967."},{"startTime":1301.825,"endTime":1307.621,"body":"Uh, those of you who know your modern German history will know the significance of"},{"startTime":1307.621,"endTime":1311.485,"body":"the protests that greeted the Shah in Berlin in 1967."},{"startTime":1312.105,"endTime":1317.623,"body":"Um, enormous student protests that were organized by German student groups in cooperation with a"},{"startTime":1317.623,"endTime":1317.991,"body":"very large, um, community of, uh, Iranian students who were in, um, uh, west Germany"},{"startTime":1317.991,"endTime":1324.245,"body":"at the time."},{"startTime":1325.665,"endTime":1332.658,"body":"Uh, the Shah was going to go to the Berlin Opera, uh, in, in West"},{"startTime":1332.658,"endTime":1333.125,"body":"Berlin."},{"startTime":1333.905,"endTime":1340.496,"body":"And the, uh, the students had arrayed themselves all up and down, uh, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":1340.496,"endTime":1340.935,"body":"I think it's Bismarck Strata, uh, wearing these, um, uh, uh, brown paper masks with"},{"startTime":1340.935,"endTime":1349.285,"body":"the faces of the Shah."},{"startTime":1349.285,"endTime":1351.605,"body":"And it was a sort of carnival almost atmosphere."},{"startTime":1351.605,"endTime":1356.698,"body":"There was a, I've seen photos of a Volkswagen Beetle driving up and down in"},{"startTime":1356.698,"endTime":1357.038,"body":"front of the, in front of the, uh, opera house, um, the Iranians, as was"},{"startTime":1357.038,"endTime":1357.378,"body":"their want, had had brought in the prosha protestors to try to create a positive"},{"startTime":1357.378,"endTime":1368.245,"body":"atmosphere for the Shah."},{"startTime":1368.745,"endTime":1374.092,"body":"And, uh, and that quite naturally there were, you know, clashes between these protestors and"},{"startTime":1374.092,"endTime":1374.805,"body":"the demonstrators."},{"startTime":1375.145,"endTime":1380.856,"body":"And, uh, uh, very sadly, uh, a, a German student, a student at the F"},{"startTime":1380.856,"endTime":1385.045,"body":"Free University in Berlin, um, Benno, uh, honor org was killed."},{"startTime":1385.065,"endTime":1389.954,"body":"He was shot and killed by a, uh, o off-duty West Berlin police officer, who"},{"startTime":1389.954,"endTime":1390.28,"body":"subsequently, by the way, turned out to be a STARI informant, but we've never quite"},{"startTime":1390.28,"endTime":1397.125,"body":"gotten to the bottom of that mystery."},{"startTime":1398.825,"endTime":1404.153,"body":"But the death of Onor, you know, this martyr for the student movement in Germany"},{"startTime":1404.153,"endTime":1406.285,"body":"really radicalized the German student movement."},{"startTime":1406.285,"endTime":1412.54,"body":"And of course, out of that, grew the Red Army faction, uh, by the Meinhof,"},{"startTime":1412.54,"endTime":1412.957,"body":"uh, uh, in fact, Eureka Meinhof, uh, had lit, had written an open letter to"},{"startTime":1412.957,"endTime":1413.374,"body":"Empress Farrah, uh, ahead of the visit, basically criticizing her and, and calling her a"},{"startTime":1413.374,"endTime":1413.791,"body":"hypocrite, um, and pointing out all of the miseries and sufferings of, um, of people"},{"startTime":1413.791,"endTime":1414.208,"body":"in Iran, the, the dominant ideology amongst this Iranian opposition to the Shah abroad, all"},{"startTime":1414.208,"endTime":1414.625,"body":"these Iranian students that, that had been assembled on university campuses in Germany and Britain"},{"startTime":1414.625,"endTime":1445.485,"body":"and the United States."},{"startTime":1445.945,"endTime":1453.225,"body":"Um, the dominant idea was what one Iranian intellectual had coined as West Toxification, uh,"},{"startTime":1453.225,"endTime":1453.711,"body":"in Persian, the idea that Iranians were poor imitations, the, the were poor imitations"},{"startTime":1453.711,"endTime":1454.196,"body":"of the West, that the Shah and his technocratic elite, um, didn't really understand, uh,"},{"startTime":1454.196,"endTime":1454.681,"body":"the, uh, actual roots of Western culture, but instead, sort of blindly aed, um, the"},{"startTime":1454.681,"endTime":1455.167,"body":"trappings, uh, of Western culture, dress, food, uh, the superficial, superficial sort of aspects of,"},{"startTime":1455.167,"endTime":1483.805,"body":"um, Western culture."},{"startTime":1484.425,"endTime":1488.325,"body":"It implied, of course, that, that the Shah and his elite were inauthentic."},{"startTime":1488.395,"endTime":1494.297,"body":"They were not authentically Iranian, that they had, uh, uh, betrayed or abandoned their own"},{"startTime":1494.297,"endTime":1495.085,"body":"authentic culture."},{"startTime":1497.025,"endTime":1503.584,"body":"Um, and if you study what these opponents of the Shah were saying to each"},{"startTime":1503.584,"endTime":1504.021,"body":"other in Persian, it is of course, couched in this language of West Toxification, but"},{"startTime":1504.021,"endTime":1504.459,"body":"also increasingly couched in the language of the militant new left, um, struggle revolution, um,"},{"startTime":1504.459,"endTime":1519.765,"body":"Maoism, uh, Marxism, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1520.105,"endTime":1525.422,"body":"But if you look at what these same people are saying in English and German"},{"startTime":1525.422,"endTime":1525.777,"body":"and French to Western audiences, to people like you, they speak of human rights, constitutionalism,"},{"startTime":1525.777,"endTime":1534.285,"body":"democracy, freedom, the rights of women, the rights of minorities."},{"startTime":1534.945,"endTime":1539.285,"body":"So there is two different audiences, two different languages, right?"},{"startTime":1539.375,"endTime":1540.205,"body":"Which is the truth."},{"startTime":1540.895,"endTime":1542.125,"body":"Where do they really stand?"},{"startTime":1542.985,"endTime":1550.335,"body":"Um, for the Western observers, particularly western intellectuals who were in contact with these opponents"},{"startTime":1550.335,"endTime":1553.765,"body":"of the Shah, this was very confusing."},{"startTime":1554.865,"endTime":1559.205,"body":"Um, uh, on the surface, what did they see?"},{"startTime":1559.275,"endTime":1564.543,"body":"They saw, uh, young Iranians who were calling for human rights, who were calling for"},{"startTime":1564.543,"endTime":1564.894,"body":"freedom, who were critical of an autocratic Shah who had, who imprisoned his opponents, where"},{"startTime":1564.894,"endTime":1565.245,"body":"torture took place in prisons, where, you know, quite naturally they were sympathetic to these,"},{"startTime":1565.245,"endTime":1576.485,"body":"to these young Iranians."},{"startTime":1577.145,"endTime":1582.105,"body":"But what they didn't understand, and what they were not privy to, was the internal"},{"startTime":1582.105,"endTime":1586.405,"body":"conversation that was going on amongst the Iranian opposition in Persian, amongst themselves."},{"startTime":1587.225,"endTime":1593.095,"body":"Um, what they couldn't understand, particularly those intellectuals on the left, was that the fault"},{"startTime":1593.095,"endTime":1593.487,"body":"lines of Iranian politics were not class in the way that they expected, but rather"},{"startTime":1593.487,"endTime":1593.878,"body":"culture, that the divisions were not between the upper class and the middle class, and"},{"startTime":1593.878,"endTime":1594.27,"body":"the petty bourgeoisie, and the lump and proto and all the language of the, of"},{"startTime":1594.27,"endTime":1594.661,"body":"the left, but rather a division between those who, um, were in favor of the"},{"startTime":1594.661,"endTime":1620.885,"body":"modern secular westernized Iran that the Shah was trying to construct."},{"startTime":1620.905,"endTime":1624.845,"body":"And those who were against it for a variety of reasons."},{"startTime":1626.505,"endTime":1632.869,"body":"Um, the person I think who encapsulates that very well is, is the French, um,"},{"startTime":1632.869,"endTime":1633.294,"body":"philosopher Michelle Fuko, who of course was one of the most important postmodernist, arguably the"},{"startTime":1633.294,"endTime":1642.205,"body":"most important postmodernist philosopher of his time."},{"startTime":1642.905,"endTime":1651.525,"body":"Um, Fuko challenged the emancipatory claims of the Enlightenment, um, including both liberalism and Marxism."},{"startTime":1651.745,"endTime":1654.339,"body":"Um, so we have to be careful not to label him as an intellectual of"},{"startTime":1654.339,"endTime":1654.685,"body":"the left."},{"startTime":1654.805,"endTime":1656.325,"body":"I think that's slightly misleading."},{"startTime":1657.065,"endTime":1665.347,"body":"Um, he, he saw, he argued that the ruling classes of Western societies simply supplanted,"},{"startTime":1665.347,"endTime":1669.765,"body":"uh, violent forms of power in traditional societies."},{"startTime":1670.025,"endTime":1677.393,"body":"So say pre-modern Iran, um, for less violent and more sophisticated forms of power and"},{"startTime":1677.393,"endTime":1677.885,"body":"discipline."},{"startTime":1678.425,"endTime":1683.725,"body":"So the Enlightenment was not just about liberty, but it was also about discipline."},{"startTime":1684.425,"endTime":1691.772,"body":"Um, this led for co to have a, a, a real fascination with a sort"},{"startTime":1691.772,"endTime":1692.262,"body":"of romanticized idea of the pre-modern world, the pre-modern east, or the pre-modern, um, orient,"},{"startTime":1692.262,"endTime":1692.752,"body":"um, which he contrasted with the rational modern West, where individualism and technologies for disciplining"},{"startTime":1692.752,"endTime":1693.242,"body":"people, uh, and controlling people and controlling nature, um, had suppressed emotion and spiritualism and"},{"startTime":1693.242,"endTime":1717.245,"body":"nobility and any sense of paternal duty."},{"startTime":1717.985,"endTime":1723.175,"body":"Um, so for, for example, this, he in his work on the history of sexuality,"},{"startTime":1723.175,"endTime":1728.365,"body":"um, uh, he, he, he said that the modern West had a science of sex."},{"startTime":1728.945,"endTime":1734.604,"body":"We saw sex in a scientific way, whereas in the pre-modern East, there was an"},{"startTime":1734.604,"endTime":1737.245,"body":"art of eroticism and of sexual pleasure."},{"startTime":1737.955,"endTime":1738.245,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1738.905,"endTime":1744.11,"body":"Um, he drew similar distinctions when it came to madness or illness, or the idea"},{"startTime":1744.11,"endTime":1744.805,"body":"of death."},{"startTime":1745.465,"endTime":1753.04,"body":"Um, so as revolution erupts in, in Iran in 1978, the Italian newspaper, corre Deera"},{"startTime":1753.04,"endTime":1759.605,"body":"asks FCO to travel to Iran, uh, and report on what he saw."},{"startTime":1759.745,"endTime":1763.962,"body":"Now, first of all, what a wonderful time when newspapers asked intellectuals to travel to"},{"startTime":1763.962,"endTime":1764.525,"body":"foreign places."},{"startTime":1765.965,"endTime":1767.005,"body":"A shame, we don't do that anymore."},{"startTime":1767.745,"endTime":1775.488,"body":"Um, FCO made his, uh, first trip to Iran, uh, from 16 to 24, September,"},{"startTime":1775.488,"endTime":1776.005,"body":"1978."},{"startTime":1776.355,"endTime":1781.533,"body":"This was just after the violence of Black Friday, the Les Square incident, where large"},{"startTime":1781.533,"endTime":1783.605,"body":"number of protestors had been killed."},{"startTime":1784.305,"endTime":1789.986,"body":"Um, he then made a second trip from the ninth to the 15th of November,"},{"startTime":1789.986,"endTime":1790.365,"body":"1978."},{"startTime":1790.705,"endTime":1795.178,"body":"And that was just before the absolute peak of the protests against the Shah during"},{"startTime":1795.178,"endTime":1797.565,"body":"the Shia month, the holy month of Mohara."},{"startTime":1798.865,"endTime":1803.925,"body":"Um, so Fko, how would someone like Fko see the Pat Leve monarchy?"},{"startTime":1804.505,"endTime":1811.63,"body":"Um, he, he, he saw the Pat Le monarchy as a, as a failed project"},{"startTime":1811.63,"endTime":1814.005,"body":"of nationalism, secularization, and modernization."},{"startTime":1814.665,"endTime":1821.432,"body":"Um, it, it, it wasn't simply that modernization had been poorly applied in Iran, uh,"},{"startTime":1821.432,"endTime":1821.883,"body":"uh, but rather that, uh, uh, the, so it wasn't simply that modernization had been"},{"startTime":1821.883,"endTime":1830.005,"body":"poorly applied, generating opposition."},{"startTime":1830.985,"endTime":1837.527,"body":"It was rather that for Fko, the Iranian revolution, the uprising against the Shah was"},{"startTime":1837.527,"endTime":1842.325,"body":"a complete wholesale rejection of the very idea of modernization itself."},{"startTime":1844.545,"endTime":1850.267,"body":"Um, during his first trip to Iran, he, he went to gom, the holy city"},{"startTime":1850.267,"endTime":1850.649,"body":"of Gomme, the Shia seminaries, um, and he met with, um, AYA Maari, who at"},{"startTime":1850.649,"endTime":1859.805,"body":"the time was the most senior Iranian cleric in Iran."},{"startTime":1860.505,"endTime":1864.527,"body":"Um, and he also met with Meti Bgan, who would go on to be the"},{"startTime":1864.527,"endTime":1866.405,"body":"first Prime Minister, Khomeini's first prime minister."},{"startTime":1866.865,"endTime":1873.578,"body":"Um, after the Revolution, um, uh, returning to France, uh, he wrote a series of"},{"startTime":1873.578,"endTime":1874.025,"body":"articles in which he dismissed any criticism of Khomeini or Islamism, including by Iranians on"},{"startTime":1874.025,"endTime":1887.005,"body":"the left, uh, as some, he basically dismissed these critics of Khomeini as somehow inauthentic."},{"startTime":1887.795,"endTime":1888.685,"body":"They were Iranians."},{"startTime":1888.685,"endTime":1891.085,"body":"In other words, who'd lost touch with Iran."},{"startTime":1892.105,"endTime":1895.445,"body":"Um, uh, they'd been seduced by Western ness."},{"startTime":1895.555,"endTime":1897.485,"body":"They were, in essence, west Toxified."},{"startTime":1898.385,"endTime":1905.731,"body":"Um, he compared the anti-Western Iranian clerics with, uh, southerner in 15th century Florence, or"},{"startTime":1905.731,"endTime":1906.221,"body":"the Anabaptists of 16th century pro of the 16th century Protestant reformation in Germany, or"},{"startTime":1906.221,"endTime":1906.71,"body":"the Puritans of Cromwell's England in the 17th century, um, FKA had become completely infatuated"},{"startTime":1906.71,"endTime":1907.2,"body":"with the rhetoric, the symbols, and the rituals of militant revolutionary Shia Islam, particularly the"},{"startTime":1907.2,"endTime":1907.69,"body":"emphasis on martyrdom and the role of a militant clergy, militant anti-modern clergy, as the"},{"startTime":1907.69,"endTime":1939.525,"body":"representatives of the popular will of the Iranian people."},{"startTime":1942.625,"endTime":1948.16,"body":"Fko then actually met Khomeini when he was in exile outside of Paris, before he,"},{"startTime":1948.16,"endTime":1950.005,"body":"before Khomeini returned to Iran."},{"startTime":1950.345,"endTime":1953.765,"body":"Um, this was in early October, uh, 1978."},{"startTime":1954.425,"endTime":1960.562,"body":"Um, this was a time when Khomeini was making statements from Paris that revealed his"},{"startTime":1960.562,"endTime":1964.245,"body":"deep hostility to the secular opposition to the Shah."},{"startTime":1965.985,"endTime":1973.038,"body":"Uh, yet KO's writings in the French periodical Le Observator revealed the extent to which"},{"startTime":1973.038,"endTime":1973.508,"body":"he had completely embraced and accepted Khomeini's attempts to cast himself as a saintly, almost"},{"startTime":1973.508,"endTime":1986.205,"body":"divine figure in a cosmic struggle between the Shah and the Iranian people."},{"startTime":1990.645,"endTime":1996.789,"body":"Fuko denigrated the moderates who sought to achieve a compromise between Khomeini and the Shah,"},{"startTime":1996.789,"endTime":2002.525,"body":"or who hoped to channel the revolution into a more secular or democratic path."},{"startTime":2003.035,"endTime":2007.805,"body":"What Iranians wanted f proclaimed was not just revolution."},{"startTime":2008.115,"endTime":2010.045,"body":"What they wanted was an Islamic state."},{"startTime":2012.105,"endTime":2017.523,"body":"He was correct in arguing that the real power in Iran lay with Khomeini and"},{"startTime":2017.523,"endTime":2017.885,"body":"the religious leaders, and not with the, um, secular politicians who were still thinking in"},{"startTime":2017.885,"endTime":2018.246,"body":"ter in terms of the enlightenment, the enlightenment values of Marxism or Maoism, or whatever"},{"startTime":2018.246,"endTime":2029.445,"body":"it may be."},{"startTime":2031.305,"endTime":2035.805,"body":"Um, these secular politicians underestimated Khomeini."},{"startTime":2036.625,"endTime":2039.725,"body":"But the question was, what is an Islamic government?"},{"startTime":2040.075,"endTime":2041.405,"body":"What is an Islamic state?"},{"startTime":2041.455,"endTime":2043.565,"body":"We've never had one in the modern world."},{"startTime":2044.345,"endTime":2049.198,"body":"Um, and Fuko, and I think this was the most embarrassing thing that he wrote,"},{"startTime":2049.198,"endTime":2049.522,"body":"uh, he, he wrote, quote, nobody in Iran means a political regime in which the"},{"startTime":2049.522,"endTime":2056.965,"body":"clerics would have a role of supervision or control."},{"startTime":2058.585,"endTime":2060.005,"body":"He was, of course, totally wrong."},{"startTime":2062.864,"endTime":2068.553,"body":"The clerics had explained to Fko that under Islam liberties, quote, this fko writing here"},{"startTime":2068.553,"endTime":2073.485,"body":"will be respected to the extent that their exercise will not harm others."},{"startTime":2074.215,"endTime":2078.672,"body":"Minorities will be protected and free to live as they please on the condition that"},{"startTime":2078.672,"endTime":2081.645,"body":"they do not injure the majority between men and women."},{"startTime":2081.645,"endTime":2087.152,"body":"There will not be inequality with respect to rights, but difference since there is a"},{"startTime":2087.152,"endTime":2091.925,"body":"natural difference with respect to politics, decisions should be made by the majority."},{"startTime":2092.625,"endTime":2097.05,"body":"The leaders should be responsible to the people, and each person, as it is laid"},{"startTime":2097.05,"endTime":2100.885,"body":"out in the Quran, should be able to stand up and hold accountable."},{"startTime":2101.025,"endTime":2102.005,"body":"He who governs."},{"startTime":2104.745,"endTime":2104.965,"body":"Now,"},{"startTime":2106.645,"endTime":2112.611,"body":"Fuko had some reservations about these pronouncements, but his reservations were perhaps not those that"},{"startTime":2112.611,"endTime":2113.805,"body":"you would expect."},{"startTime":2114.585,"endTime":2120.447,"body":"Um, his reservations were not about the illiberalism of Khomeini, but rather that these pronouncements"},{"startTime":2120.447,"endTime":2123.965,"body":"sounded a little too liberal, uh, for his liking."},{"startTime":2125.025,"endTime":2130.627,"body":"Um, were these formulas a little bit too much, too similar to the bourgeois formulas"},{"startTime":2130.627,"endTime":2131.001,"body":"for democracy, um, uh, which would lead, which might lead to some sort of oppressive"},{"startTime":2131.001,"endTime":2138.845,"body":"liberal democracy as existed in the West?"},{"startTime":2139.745,"endTime":2145.387,"body":"Um, what most impressed Fuko about the idea of Islamic government was that it opened"},{"startTime":2145.387,"endTime":2147.645,"body":"a quote, spiritual dimension in politics."},{"startTime":2148.465,"endTime":2153.787,"body":"He called this political spirituality, which had been lost in Europe since the Renaissance, and"},{"startTime":2153.787,"endTime":2158.045,"body":"that was something that the West could learn from the Iranian revolution."},{"startTime":2160.145,"endTime":2165.605,"body":"Fko was, of course, criticized for presenting these views in the French and Italian press."},{"startTime":2166.305,"endTime":2172.842,"body":"Um, uh, a young Iranian leftist woman living exile in exile in Paris, uh, wrote"},{"startTime":2172.842,"endTime":2176.765,"body":"in to Ur  under the pseudonym Arta H."},{"startTime":2177.185,"endTime":2182.458,"body":"She took Fuko to task for his uncritical celebration of Islamism, and his disregard for"},{"startTime":2182.458,"endTime":2186.325,"body":"the dangers that it posed to both women and religious minorities."},{"startTime":2187.595,"endTime":2194.179,"body":"KO's response was to dismiss her concerns and to say that Islam would be an"},{"startTime":2194.179,"endTime":2200.325,"body":"essential political force of our time, and it could not be ignored or dismissed."},{"startTime":2202.945,"endTime":2210.627,"body":"So, so much for the record of the intellectuals, when the revolution, of course is"},{"startTime":2210.627,"endTime":2217.285,"body":"victorious, um, we begin to see the reality of what it would mean"},{"startTime":2219.345,"endTime":2222.445,"body":"Almost immediately after Khomeini's return to Iran."},{"startTime":2223.265,"endTime":2228.707,"body":"The revolutionary terror began, uh, the first to be murdered were four generals of the"},{"startTime":2228.707,"endTime":2229.07,"body":"Shah's army, who was shot on the rooftop of the Refa Girls School, where Khomeini"},{"startTime":2229.07,"endTime":2235.965,"body":"had established his temporary headquarters."},{"startTime":2236.075,"endTime":2238.645,"body":"That was on the 15th of February, 1979."},{"startTime":2239.705,"endTime":2241.925,"body":"The next target, of course, were Iranian women."},{"startTime":2243.125,"endTime":2248.525,"body":"Khomeini began almost immediately rolling back the laws, uh, that had been instituted under the"},{"startTime":2248.525,"endTime":2252.485,"body":"Shah to grant greater, um, freedom and equality to Iranian women."},{"startTime":2252.585,"endTime":2257.125,"body":"His first edict was to impose the veil on female civil servants."},{"startTime":2257.665,"endTime":2264.125,"body":"Um, in response, of course, on International Women's Day, on the 8th of March, 1979,"},{"startTime":2264.125,"endTime":2269.725,"body":"mass protests took place in Iran, the first major against Khomeini's, um, rule."},{"startTime":2272.365,"endTime":2277.34,"body":"A month later, we saw the execution of the Shah's Prime Minister Amir, our boss,"},{"startTime":2277.34,"endTime":2280.325,"body":"Vidar, who'd served as Prime Minister for 13 years."},{"startTime":2280.425,"endTime":2284.085,"body":"He was shot, uh, after a kangaroo, um, court."},{"startTime":2284.785,"endTime":2289.0,"body":"And then on the 8th of August, 1979, we saw the closure of the I"},{"startTime":2289.0,"endTime":2290.125,"body":"Undergone newspaper in Iran."},{"startTime":2290.125,"endTime":2293.912,"body":"And when I say closure, I mean that the building was ransacked and set on"},{"startTime":2293.912,"endTime":2294.165,"body":"fire."},{"startTime":2295.105,"endTime":2300.063,"body":"Um, and the closure of I undergone, which was a sort of left-leaning, um, uh,"},{"startTime":2300.063,"endTime":2300.725,"body":"a newspaper."},{"startTime":2301.225,"endTime":2308.044,"body":"Uh, these series of events in 1979 began to give pause for some intellectuals who"},{"startTime":2308.044,"endTime":2313.045,"body":"had been rather sort of celebratory, um, about the Iranian revolution."},{"startTime":2313.785,"endTime":2316.005,"body":"Um, this of course, was not the worst of it."},{"startTime":2316.145,"endTime":2321.897,"body":"It would get even more grim as the 1980s went on, culminating in mass executions"},{"startTime":2321.897,"endTime":2324.965,"body":"of prisoners in 1988, um, in Iranian prisons."},{"startTime":2326.305,"endTime":2330.949,"body":"Yet despite this, there were foreign observers who were still holding onto the hope and"},{"startTime":2330.949,"endTime":2335.285,"body":"still holding onto the view that the Iranian revolution was something to be celebrated."},{"startTime":2335.485,"endTime":2340.003,"body":"I think the most notorious of all of them is a, a man by the"},{"startTime":2340.003,"endTime":2340.305,"body":"name of Richard Fork, who was a, who was a law professor at Princeton University,"},{"startTime":2340.305,"endTime":2340.606,"body":"and a prominent, uh, American, uh, of the left, um, who had met with Khomeini"},{"startTime":2340.606,"endTime":2340.907,"body":"prior to his return to Iran Fork, wrote in the New York Times on the"},{"startTime":2340.907,"endTime":2354.765,"body":"16th of February, 1979."},{"startTime":2354.825,"endTime":2361.835,"body":"And I quote the depiction of him, this is Khomeini, the depiction of him as"},{"startTime":2361.835,"endTime":2368.845,"body":"fanatical, reactionary, and the bearer of crude prejudices seems certain, seems certainly, and happily false."},{"startTime":2369.795,"endTime":2376.17,"body":"What is also encouraging is that his entourage of close advisors is uniformly composed of"},{"startTime":2376.17,"endTime":2377.445,"body":"moderate progressive intellectuals."},{"startTime":2378.945,"endTime":2384.863,"body":"Uh, even after the executions in Iran and the, and, and the clear oppression of"},{"startTime":2384.863,"endTime":2385.258,"body":"women and minorities fork wrote, quote, ATO la Khomeini seems dedicated to evolving for the"},{"startTime":2385.258,"endTime":2385.652,"body":"people of Iran, some form of humane governance that centers very much on social justice"},{"startTime":2385.652,"endTime":2397.885,"body":"for the poor."},{"startTime":2398.345,"endTime":2404.226,"body":"He has an intense, popular mandate to achieve this goal, successfully enable Iran to demonstrate"},{"startTime":2404.226,"endTime":2404.618,"body":"that a revolutionary victory need not be spoiled by the tensions raised in the post-revolutionary"},{"startTime":2404.618,"endTime":2411.285,"body":"period of consolidation."},{"startTime":2412.025,"endTime":2416.595,"body":"At least we should be skeptical about all those who now call for the observance"},{"startTime":2416.595,"endTime":2421.165,"body":"of human rights after decades of utter silence during the Shah's long reign of terror."},{"startTime":2423.105,"endTime":2428.789,"body":"So what you see is once these opinions, once these misreadings are formed, they're very"},{"startTime":2428.789,"endTime":2429.168,"body":"difficult to dispel no matter what the true, no matter what, uh, evidence to the"},{"startTime":2429.168,"endTime":2437.885,"body":"counter, to the con, contrary, uh, is reaching us."},{"startTime":2438.705,"endTime":2443.37,"body":"Um, there is an exception to this, and I think he deserves to be mentioned,"},{"startTime":2443.37,"endTime":2444.925,"body":"and that is Fred Halladay."},{"startTime":2445.705,"endTime":2451.567,"body":"Um, Halladay was a prominent Anglo-Irish Marxist intellectual who had established links with the Iranian"},{"startTime":2451.567,"endTime":2451.957,"body":"left in the 1960s and 1970s, particularly during his activism in spar, in support of"},{"startTime":2451.957,"endTime":2460.165,"body":"the Dfar Relu Rebellion in, uh, Oman."},{"startTime":2461.785,"endTime":2466.926,"body":"So he had correctly anticipated, um, that the Shah would face serious political difficulties by"},{"startTime":2466.926,"endTime":2467.269,"body":"the end of the 1970s, um, and had published a book to that effect, uh,"},{"startTime":2467.269,"endTime":2474.125,"body":"on the eve of the revolution."},{"startTime":2474.125,"endTime":2480.232,"body":"However, the Halladay, you know, being a of a Marxist, um, had very much underplayed"},{"startTime":2480.232,"endTime":2480.639,"body":"the Islamic character, um, of, of the revolution, his 1979 book, dictatorship and Development, which"},{"startTime":2480.639,"endTime":2490.005,"body":"had been written in the period 76 to 77."},{"startTime":2490.665,"endTime":2495.342,"body":"Um, he, he wrote in that book, and I quote, the Aya and Mullahs on"},{"startTime":2495.342,"endTime":2499.085,"body":"their own can probably not sustain or channel the popular Upe search."},{"startTime":2501.225,"endTime":2505.525,"body":"His v his views began to change after he visited Iran in August, 1979."},{"startTime":2505.625,"endTime":2510.477,"body":"He witnessed the attack on, I Undergone, he saw the arrest of many of his"},{"startTime":2510.477,"endTime":2511.125,"body":"leftist friends."},{"startTime":2511.865,"endTime":2515.405,"body":"Um, he, he witnessed, uh, or read about the executions."},{"startTime":2515.545,"endTime":2520.267,"body":"He returned to London and wrote a series of articles for the New Statesman, uh,"},{"startTime":2520.267,"endTime":2524.045,"body":"the headline for one of which was Islam, with a Fascist Face."},{"startTime":2525.525,"endTime":2528.445,"body":"I really wonder if any newspaper would dare to publish such a headline today,"},{"startTime":2529.205,"endTime":2534.205,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e,"},{"startTime":2531.305,"endTime":2536.823,"body":"By 1987, Halladay was writing in the new left review of the anti Imperialism of"},{"startTime":2536.823,"endTime":2537.191,"body":"Fools and admonishing the Iranian left for not supporting the liberal government of Ur bti,"},{"startTime":2537.191,"endTime":2537.559,"body":"the Shah's last Prime Minister, who had tried desperately to seek a transition from the,"},{"startTime":2537.559,"endTime":2552.645,"body":"uh, the, uh, autocracy of the Shah to some form of constitutional government."},{"startTime":2553.465,"endTime":2559.432,"body":"Um, but what Halladay demonstrated was that it is possible, it is possible to acknowledge"},{"startTime":2559.432,"endTime":2564.605,"body":"when we get something wrong, uh, and to, and to revise our views."},{"startTime":2564.825,"endTime":2567.125,"body":"Now, where does that leave us today?"},{"startTime":2568.935,"endTime":2570.005,"body":"Women Life Freedom."},{"startTime":2573.825,"endTime":2578.293,"body":"We were of course, all greatly encouraged when we saw the uprising in Iran beginning"},{"startTime":2578.293,"endTime":2579.485,"body":"in September last year."},{"startTime":2579.745,"endTime":2585.733,"body":"It filled us with hope that perhaps the moment had come when Iran would finally"},{"startTime":2585.733,"endTime":2589.725,"body":"transition from a theocracy to some form of representative democracy."},{"startTime":2589.875,"endTime":2595.192,"body":"That was the great hope, and it was so encouraging to see that generations of"},{"startTime":2595.192,"endTime":2595.547,"body":"Iranians who had completely grown up under the rule of the Islamic Republic, the millennials,"},{"startTime":2595.547,"endTime":2604.765,"body":"the Gen Z, um, what were the values that they were espousing?"},{"startTime":2604.765,"endTime":2608.805,"body":"What were the values that they were demonstrating for risking their lives, for?"},{"startTime":2608.805,"endTime":2617.525,"body":"They were the values of the enlightenment, rationality, equality, liberation, justice, um, universal values."},{"startTime":2618.515,"endTime":2625.065,"body":"What they were doing in September and October, 1979 was nothing short of completely rejecting"},{"startTime":2625.065,"endTime":2627.685,"body":"the values of the 1979 Revolution."},{"startTime":2628.745,"endTime":2633.774,"body":"Uh, it was in a way, a reversal where 79 had been a rejection of"},{"startTime":2633.774,"endTime":2634.445,"body":"the enlightenment."},{"startTime":2634.705,"endTime":2637.605,"body":"2022 was an embrace of the Enlightenment."},{"startTime":2638.505,"endTime":2645.51,"body":"Um, but how was it interpreted here in Britain and in Europe and in the"},{"startTime":2645.51,"endTime":2646.445,"body":"United States?"},{"startTime":2646.795,"endTime":2652.849,"body":"Well, I think it was widely seen as a feminist revolution, and I think that"},{"startTime":2652.849,"endTime":2653.252,"body":"that's understandable, given that Iranian women were at the forefront of the revolution, um, that"},{"startTime":2653.252,"endTime":2653.656,"body":"it part, it was particularly young Iranian women, uh, leading the movement, uh, in Iran's"},{"startTime":2653.656,"endTime":2665.765,"body":"urban centers."},{"startTime":2666.695,"endTime":2671.525,"body":"Their slogan is, was, and is Women Life Freedom?"},{"startTime":2673.265,"endTime":2679.31,"body":"And we focused on women, but we didn't pay much attention to the life and"},{"startTime":2679.31,"endTime":2681.325,"body":"freedom aspects of that slogan."},{"startTime":2682.225,"endTime":2687.445,"body":"And this, I think, is our misreading of what is happening in Iran."},{"startTime":2688.475,"endTime":2693.389,"body":"What we are doing is we are projecting our own politics onto what is happening"},{"startTime":2693.389,"endTime":2694.045,"body":"in Europe."},{"startTime":2694.785,"endTime":2699.98,"body":"We are projecting our own culture wars, which is very understandable, given the context of"},{"startTime":2699.98,"endTime":2700.326,"body":"what is happening in, in, in Europe and the United States, in the context of"},{"startTime":2700.326,"endTime":2700.672,"body":"our enormous cultural debate about what is the definition of a woman, uh, uh, the"},{"startTime":2700.672,"endTime":2715.565,"body":"political debates in the United States about wom a woman's right to abortion, et cetera."},{"startTime":2715.585,"endTime":2720.268,"body":"You know, it's understandable that we are now projecting these same debates onto what is"},{"startTime":2720.268,"endTime":2721.205,"body":"happening in Iran."},{"startTime":2721.705,"endTime":2727.035,"body":"But when women in Iran are protesting, when men in Iran are protesting, and when"},{"startTime":2727.035,"endTime":2732.365,"body":"their slogan is Women Life Freedom, what are they talking about in their own context?"},{"startTime":2733.035,"endTime":2735.685,"body":"What do these slogans mean in an Iranian context?"},{"startTime":2736.555,"endTime":2744.935,"body":"Well, I would argue that if we break down this, uh, this slogan, women Zan"},{"startTime":2744.935,"endTime":2745.494,"body":"stands in, I think, for the debate on secularism versus Islamism, because it is women"},{"startTime":2745.494,"endTime":2746.053,"body":"more than any other person in Iranian society who feel on their skin in their"},{"startTime":2746.053,"endTime":2767.285,"body":"daily lives, the impact of living under an Islamic regime."},{"startTime":2768.305,"endTime":2774.875,"body":"So the battle to abolish compulsory veiling is not simply about the emancipation of women,"},{"startTime":2774.875,"endTime":2781.445,"body":"which it is to some extent about it, is really a complete rejection of Islamism."},{"startTime":2782.475,"endTime":2789.272,"body":"And an, and an argument that the whole of Iranian society embraces men and women,"},{"startTime":2789.272,"endTime":2789.725,"body":"that the, that political Islam should not define the nature of gender relations in Iranian"},{"startTime":2789.725,"endTime":2799.695,"body":"society or any other aspect of Iranian society."},{"startTime":2800.715,"endTime":2803.735,"body":"Um, what about life?"},{"startTime":2803.965,"endTime":2807.495,"body":"What do they mean when they, when, when, when, when they speak of life?"},{"startTime":2807.725,"endTime":2813.015,"body":"Here, I think they speak of the, the issue of prosperity versus corruption."},{"startTime":2814.275,"endTime":2820.517,"body":"Uh, the corruption that has plagued the Islamic Republic for decades that has made life"},{"startTime":2820.517,"endTime":2823.015,"body":"feel hopeless for this younger generation."},{"startTime":2823.875,"endTime":2829.391,"body":"Um, it is an aspiration to live life, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,"},{"startTime":2829.391,"endTime":2830.495,"body":"you might say."},{"startTime":2831.315,"endTime":2832.935,"body":"Um, and finally, freedom."},{"startTime":2834.485,"endTime":2837.015,"body":"What freedom would seem to be fairly self-explanatory."},{"startTime":2837.015,"endTime":2842.591,"body":"But again, I think it is a slogan that touches on the issue of liberalism"},{"startTime":2842.591,"endTime":2843.335,"body":"versus authoritarianism."},{"startTime":2844.155,"endTime":2847.535,"body":"Um, these are the issues that are relevant in the Iranian context."},{"startTime":2848.075,"endTime":2853.154,"body":"And to understand that you have to place what is happening in Iran in 20"},{"startTime":2853.154,"endTime":2853.493,"body":"22, 20 23 in a much longer historical trajectory, you have to look at all"},{"startTime":2853.493,"endTime":2853.832,"body":"of the protests that have taken place, not only under the Islamic Republics since 2009,"},{"startTime":2853.832,"endTime":2865.685,"body":"but in fact a century long struggle."},{"startTime":2865.915,"endTime":2871.429,"body":"That goes back to the constitutional revolution that Ali Ansari spoke to you about, um,"},{"startTime":2871.429,"endTime":2872.165,"body":"last month."},{"startTime":2872.865,"endTime":2880.894,"body":"It is the issue of secularism versus Islamism, prosperity versus corruption, liberalism versus authoritarianism that"},{"startTime":2880.894,"endTime":2881.965,"body":"concerns Iranians."},{"startTime":2882.545,"endTime":2888.538,"body":"And, uh, my plea is for us to not project our own politics onto what"},{"startTime":2888.538,"endTime":2888.938,"body":"is happening in, in Iran, but rather to try to empathize with the Iranians themselves"},{"startTime":2888.938,"endTime":2889.337,"body":"and understand, uh, what it is they are struggling for from their own point of"},{"startTime":2889.337,"endTime":2900.925,"body":"view."},{"startTime":2902.065,"endTime":2906.605,"body":"Um, so let us make it about them rather than about us."},{"startTime":2907.595,"endTime":2907.885,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2908.155,"endTime":2908.805,"body":"I'll stop there."},{"startTime":2921.135,"endTime":2921.845,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":2922.145,"endTime":2927.834,"body":"Um, so as ever, with the receiving questions that come in from outside, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2927.834,"endTime":2932.765,"body":"try and group some themes together to make it a little more rational."},{"startTime":2933.465,"endTime":2937.073,"body":"You, you, um, talked at the end of the, if I can go back to"},{"startTime":2937.073,"endTime":2937.313,"body":"the end of the Shah regime, you kind of glossed over the fact that they"},{"startTime":2937.313,"endTime":2942.125,"body":"had already wiped out the left."},{"startTime":2942.545,"endTime":2942.765,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2943.145,"endTime":2949.601,"body":"And many of the questions which, um, I'm trying to group together here relate to"},{"startTime":2949.601,"endTime":2950.031,"body":"that moment and whether or not the impact of a religiously led revolution was in"},{"startTime":2950.031,"endTime":2950.462,"body":"fact opportunistic, that if the left had been there, it might well have been communist"},{"startTime":2950.462,"endTime":2963.805,"body":"rather than religious."},{"startTime":2964.345,"endTime":2969.177,"body":"And so what was the, what the people in your conversation sort of being glossed"},{"startTime":2969.177,"endTime":2973.365,"body":"over in a way, because you've talked about the leadership in various places."},{"startTime":2973.365,"endTime":2973.845,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":2973.845,"endTime":2977.925,"body":"What did the people really want and who was, who was leading them?"},{"startTime":2978.065,"endTime":2982.6,"body":"Was it entirely the religious sect or were there other people who were taken over"},{"startTime":2982.6,"endTime":2983.205,"body":"by them?"},{"startTime":2983.835,"endTime":2984.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2985.585,"endTime":2985.805,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2991.535,"endTime":2998.805,"body":"There is a narrative about the Iranian revolution, that the revolution was hijacked."},{"startTime":2998.955,"endTime":3003.824,"body":"That the revolution was really a revolution of the left, that at the very last"},{"startTime":3003.824,"endTime":3008.045,"body":"moment, the Islamists stepped in from the wings and captured this, um, revolution."},{"startTime":3008.625,"endTime":3011.445,"body":"Uh, I don't subscribe really to this view."},{"startTime":3011.945,"endTime":3018.459,"body":"Um, uh, it is the, the, the rising force of, uh, is Islamist opposition to"},{"startTime":3018.459,"endTime":3018.894,"body":"the Shah was really clear beginning in 1963, as early as 1963, and Khomeini's opposition"},{"startTime":3018.894,"endTime":3019.328,"body":"to the White Revolution and the Iranian left, which of course became more and more"},{"startTime":3019.328,"endTime":3019.762,"body":"militant over time, uh, and embraced the armed struggle in the 1970s, trying to sort"},{"startTime":3019.762,"endTime":3041.045,"body":"of emulate what had happened in Cuba."},{"startTime":3041.825,"endTime":3044.365,"body":"Um, uh, in, in, in, in Iran."},{"startTime":3044.825,"endTime":3051.851,"body":"Um, really failed to, uh, connect in any way with sort of, have any mass"},{"startTime":3051.851,"endTime":3053.725,"body":"appeal, um, in Iran."},{"startTime":3053.745,"endTime":3058.562,"body":"It was really a phenomenon of the Iranian sort of middle classes and upper classes,"},{"startTime":3058.562,"endTime":3059.205,"body":"quite irania."},{"startTime":3059.205,"endTime":3063.073,"body":"You look at the social backgrounds of many of the leaders of the Iranian left,"},{"startTime":3063.073,"endTime":3066.685,"body":"and they come from the finest families of the \u003claugh\u003e battle of the era."},{"startTime":3067.385,"endTime":3072.677,"body":"Um, and so, uh, combined with that, yes, it's true that, uh, the, the other"},{"startTime":3072.677,"endTime":3073.03,"body":"factor you have is that they were of course, the target of oppression, enormous target"},{"startTime":3073.03,"endTime":3073.383,"body":"of oppression by Sak and by the armed forces, because the perception was that the"},{"startTime":3073.383,"endTime":3086.085,"body":"danger to the Shah came from the left."},{"startTime":3086.705,"endTime":3092.176,"body":"And so they, uh, the, the Islamist opposition did not quite face the same level"},{"startTime":3092.176,"endTime":3094.365,"body":"of oppression as the leftists did."},{"startTime":3095.065,"endTime":3099.278,"body":"Um, and so that also made life easier for them in terms of building, um,"},{"startTime":3099.278,"endTime":3101.525,"body":"support for themselves and competing with the left."},{"startTime":3102.145,"endTime":3107.921,"body":"And so, by the time you get to 1979, it's, um, again, it feeds into"},{"startTime":3107.921,"endTime":3108.306,"body":"this misreading because the Iranian left is so overrepresented outside of Iran amongst opposition groups"},{"startTime":3108.306,"endTime":3108.691,"body":"to the Shah, but really is not of such a significant political force within Iran"},{"startTime":3108.691,"endTime":3109.076,"body":"itself, where it's really the Islamists who are the ones who are, um, mobilizing people"},{"startTime":3109.076,"endTime":3126.405,"body":"against the Shah."},{"startTime":3127.425,"endTime":3134.852,"body":"And do you think that, uh, I've, I have read, and I've heard said that"},{"startTime":3134.852,"endTime":3135.347,"body":"the orator style of Khomeini hit a note with the Iranian people, which was somewhat"},{"startTime":3135.347,"endTime":3143.765,"body":"unexpected by everyone."},{"startTime":3144.045,"endTime":3147.08,"body":"'cause he, he, in that sort of rather simplistic language he chose to use and"},{"startTime":3147.08,"endTime":3147.485,"body":"so on."},{"startTime":3147.745,"endTime":3150.605,"body":"Uh, is that correct or is that, um, an illusion?"},{"startTime":3151.185,"endTime":3153.885,"body":"No, he, Khomeini had a number of things going for him."},{"startTime":3153.945,"endTime":3160.21,"body":"One was that he was an illah, and, and that gave him a certain authority,"},{"startTime":3160.21,"endTime":3164.805,"body":"um, and, and credibility, you know, within Iran, within Iranian culture."},{"startTime":3165.385,"endTime":3168.925,"body":"But the second was, if you read, if you go back and read Khomeini's speeches"},{"startTime":3168.925,"endTime":3169.161,"body":"beginning in the 1960s, if you, if you see the things that he speaks about,"},{"startTime":3169.161,"endTime":3173.645,"body":"he rarely talks about religion."},{"startTime":3174.995,"endTime":3176.325,"body":"It's very political."},{"startTime":3176.745,"endTime":3182.351,"body":"You know, the, the, the sermons that be, that transform him into a figure of"},{"startTime":3182.351,"endTime":3182.725,"body":"opposition to the Shah are all about, he begins with opposition to the white revolution"},{"startTime":3182.725,"endTime":3183.098,"body":"where he compares, um, giving the franchise to women, to turning all Iranian women into"},{"startTime":3183.098,"endTime":3194.685,"body":"prostitutes and whores."},{"startTime":3194.745,"endTime":3200.42,"body":"And he talks about, um, he, he's a great opponent of the, uh, status of"},{"startTime":3200.42,"endTime":3200.798,"body":"forces agreement that's signed with the United States that gives, uh, legal protections to American"},{"startTime":3200.798,"endTime":3208.365,"body":"military personnel who's serving in Iran."},{"startTime":3208.385,"endTime":3211.245,"body":"He sees that as a sort of capitulation to America."},{"startTime":3211.585,"endTime":3216.125,"body":"And, um, but they're all, uh, it's khomeini."},{"startTime":3216.155,"endTime":3222.205,"body":"It's Khomeini as a political figure, um, that excites, uh, many young Iranians."},{"startTime":3222.345,"endTime":3225.897,"body":"And, and you have to remember, the same thing is happening in the seminary in"},{"startTime":3225.897,"endTime":3226.845,"body":"Iran, in the seminary."},{"startTime":3227.025,"endTime":3229.365,"body":"The same thing is happening that's happening in the universities."},{"startTime":3230.345,"endTime":3237.507,"body":"The younger generation is more attracted to the more radical teachers, the more, uh, unorthodox"},{"startTime":3237.507,"endTime":3237.985,"body":"teachers and less interested in the same old sort of very conservative, quietest Iranian clerics"},{"startTime":3237.985,"endTime":3249.445,"body":"who want to talk about esoteric issues of religious law."},{"startTime":3249.665,"endTime":3254.445,"body":"And you know, what they want is the , you know, academic."},{"startTime":3254.905,"endTime":3257.085,"body":"Um, and, and that's what Khomeini was."},{"startTime":3257.265,"endTime":3262.31,"body":"And he, and he could, uh, his other great qua quality, uh, uh, that that"},{"startTime":3262.31,"endTime":3262.646,"body":"works in Iranian politics really, is that he, uh, saw everything in this manan black"},{"startTime":3262.646,"endTime":3268.365,"body":"and white view."},{"startTime":3268.695,"endTime":3269.605,"body":"There was no gray."},{"startTime":3270.225,"endTime":3272.085,"body":"Um, and that's very appealing as well."},{"startTime":3272.925,"endTime":3277.445,"body":"Presents a very simple version of the world, um, which is very satisfying."},{"startTime":3277.595,"endTime":3280.205,"body":"Without any nuance or, uh,"},{"startTime":3280.935,"endTime":3283.005,"body":"Let's see if we can take some questions from the floor."},{"startTime":3283.265,"endTime":3284.685,"body":"We have one at the front here."},{"startTime":3287.345,"endTime":3293.085,"body":"Oh, you've been hijacked on the way \u003claugh\u003e you first and then one back there."},{"startTime":3293.155,"endTime":3293.445,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3293.495,"endTime":3294.085,"body":"Thank you very"},{"startTime":3294.085,"endTime":3294.205,"body":"Much."},{"startTime":3294.865,"endTime":3296.445,"body":"Uh, very interesting talk."},{"startTime":3297.245,"endTime":3302.365,"body":"I want to ask you the Moic revolution of Yes."},{"startTime":3302.675,"endTime":3308.766,"body":"When he came to par now that was overturned with the help of the CIA,"},{"startTime":3308.766,"endTime":3314.045,"body":"now had that continued, maybe Iran, uh, would've been on a different pathway."},{"startTime":3315.055,"endTime":3316.805,"body":"Could you like to pick some comment on that?"},{"startTime":3317.355,"endTime":3319.845,"body":"Yeah, it's, it's the great counterfactual, isn't it?"},{"startTime":3319.845,"endTime":3324.145,"body":"What would've happened if Mossek had continued, I mean, Mossek obviously would not have been"},{"startTime":3324.145,"endTime":3325.005,"body":"Prime Minister forever."},{"startTime":3325.185,"endTime":3327.965,"body":"He would've at some point relinquished the premiership."},{"startTime":3328.065,"endTime":3333.566,"body":"But I think it is not so much the continuation of Mossek government that would've"},{"startTime":3333.566,"endTime":3333.933,"body":"mattered, but if the principle of the primacy of Parliament had been established, which was"},{"startTime":3333.933,"endTime":3334.3,"body":"the case under the Iranian constitution, I mean, the Constitution that was created as a"},{"startTime":3334.3,"endTime":3334.666,"body":"result of the constitutional revolution that Ali Anari talked to you about, uh, placed sovereignty"},{"startTime":3334.666,"endTime":3353.005,"body":"in the hands of Parliament of the Malo."},{"startTime":3353.305,"endTime":3356.445,"body":"And that was Mossad's view that the Shah should reign, but not rule."},{"startTime":3356.665,"endTime":3361.904,"body":"And if that principle had prevailed, even if Sade's government had eventually gone as it"},{"startTime":3361.904,"endTime":3366.445,"body":"would have, then I think Iran would've been in a very different place."},{"startTime":3367.025,"endTime":3370.085,"body":"For one thing, the Shah would not have had a crisis of legitimacy."},{"startTime":3371.025,"endTime":3375.085,"body":"You know, the Shah was prior to that, a very popular figure in Iran."},{"startTime":3376.025,"endTime":3380.237,"body":"Um, and so I very much doubt, you know, he would've had the same problems"},{"startTime":3380.237,"endTime":3383.045,"body":"and difficulties that he had in the 1960s and seventies."},{"startTime":3383.345,"endTime":3387.725,"body":"But that doesn't mean that I think the revolution in 79 was inevitable."},{"startTime":3388.385,"endTime":3390.165,"body":"We mustn't jump to that conclusion."},{"startTime":3390.635,"endTime":3392.285,"body":"There's no inevitability about it."},{"startTime":3392.595,"endTime":3392.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3395.075,"endTime":3395.965,"body":"Just on your back,"},{"startTime":3398.205,"endTime":3403.085,"body":"I stand, uh, I really enjoyed the lecture."},{"startTime":3403.545,"endTime":3412.102,"body":"Um, you noted that the intellectuals and the leadership of the Iranian revolution were you,"},{"startTime":3412.102,"endTime":3415.525,"body":"as you say, um, anti enlightenment."},{"startTime":3416.195,"endTime":3421.953,"body":"Wallerstein mentions that one of the reasons that it was so difficult to co-opt this"},{"startTime":3421.953,"endTime":3422.337,"body":"governments, um, and, you know, the end of the Cold War, as many Marxist regimes"},{"startTime":3422.337,"endTime":3422.721,"body":"were across the world, and, uh, the third world was because its leaders were, or"},{"startTime":3422.721,"endTime":3436.925,"body":"its progenitors were anti enlightenment, whereas the Marxists weren't."},{"startTime":3437.585,"endTime":3442.591,"body":"How do you reconcile that with the fact that the revolution led to an Islamic"},{"startTime":3442.591,"endTime":3442.925,"body":"republic?"},{"startTime":3443.515,"endTime":3449.165,"body":"Like Rajani said, there's no veil in the Quran, there's no parliament."},{"startTime":3449.715,"endTime":3457.0,"body":"What we end up with looks a lot more like the third state in France"},{"startTime":3457.0,"endTime":3464.285,"body":"than, or, um, than it does like, uh, fundamentalist caliphate of, you know, the Abbasids."},{"startTime":3464.985,"endTime":3467.725,"body":"So was the revolution really anti enlightenment?"},{"startTime":3467.725,"endTime":3471.565,"body":"And how do you reconcile with the inspirations it took from in the Enlightenment?"},{"startTime":3473.145,"endTime":3481.403,"body":"Um, I think there were those, some of those people around Khomeini, uh, who, who"},{"startTime":3481.403,"endTime":3481.953,"body":"had been French educated in particular, um, and who wanted to insert some elements of"},{"startTime":3481.953,"endTime":3492.965,"body":"Republicanism, you know, into the revolution."},{"startTime":3493.105,"endTime":3498.741,"body":"And the early drafts of the, of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic had more"},{"startTime":3498.741,"endTime":3500.245,"body":"Republican elements to them."},{"startTime":3500.865,"endTime":3506.247,"body":"But of course, what happened over time, very, very quickly is that those Republican elements"},{"startTime":3506.247,"endTime":3506.965,"body":"were jettisoned."},{"startTime":3507.785,"endTime":3513.045,"body":"And what we have is the veneer of a republic, but the reality of an"},{"startTime":3513.045,"endTime":3517.605,"body":"Islamic state where, where all real power is vested in the Supreme leader."},{"startTime":3518.585,"endTime":3525.09,"body":"Um, and in the Guardian Council and in the Revolutionary guards and all the unelected,"},{"startTime":3525.09,"endTime":3525.524,"body":"so-called Islamic institutions of, of the Islamic Republic and the elected institutions, the parliament and"},{"startTime":3525.524,"endTime":3533.765,"body":"the presidency are really powerless."},{"startTime":3534.505,"endTime":3539.51,"body":"Um, uh, we saw the reality of that during Tami's presidency when, you know, when"},{"startTime":3539.51,"endTime":3539.844,"body":"the Iranian reformists made an attempt really to, to, to seize control of the Republican"},{"startTime":3539.844,"endTime":3540.178,"body":"elements of the Islamic Republic, the Parliament and the presidency, and to try to use"},{"startTime":3540.178,"endTime":3551.525,"body":"those institutions to implement serious reforms."},{"startTime":3551.555,"endTime":3556.085,"body":"Well, it didn't even last a year or two before they were completely rolled back."},{"startTime":3556.705,"endTime":3562.722,"body":"Um, so fundamentally, IIII do not, I do not see the Islamic Republic as an"},{"startTime":3562.722,"endTime":3563.525,"body":"enlightenment project."},{"startTime":3563.765,"endTime":3568.599,"body":"I see it as an anti enlightenment project, and that is why the Iranian people"},{"startTime":3568.599,"endTime":3568.921,"body":"are rising up against it, because it does not represent the will or the views"},{"startTime":3568.921,"endTime":3575.045,"body":"of a majority of Iranians."},{"startTime":3578.945,"endTime":3580.955,"body":"There's one question in the middle here, please."},{"startTime":3580.975,"endTime":3587.725,"body":"And then I think one at the back after that, lady with the glasses in"},{"startTime":3587.725,"endTime":3589.075,"body":"the middle there."},{"startTime":3591.815,"endTime":3593.795,"body":"Um, so your lecture was very interesting."},{"startTime":3593.935,"endTime":3597.291,"body":"Um, I learned a lot more from this than I did in any world history"},{"startTime":3597.291,"endTime":3597.515,"body":"class."},{"startTime":3597.815,"endTime":3599.115,"body":"So \u003claugh\u003e, thank you for that."},{"startTime":3599.615,"endTime":3605.229,"body":"Um, I think the only question that I have right now is, um, you talked"},{"startTime":3605.229,"endTime":3605.603,"body":"about how the US misread gravely the Iranian revolution, and also how the UK misread"},{"startTime":3605.603,"endTime":3612.715,"body":"the, the, um, Iranian revolution."},{"startTime":3613.055,"endTime":3618.658,"body":"But, um, some people like myself do believe that some revolutions have been misunderstood historically,"},{"startTime":3618.658,"endTime":3623.515,"body":"like the American Revolution, the French Revolution, Cuban Revolution, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":3624.095,"endTime":3630.285,"body":"But I think the, the bigger question is, did Western powers like the us, like"},{"startTime":3630.285,"endTime":3630.698,"body":"the uk like, like other European countries, did they gravely underestimate the power that these"},{"startTime":3630.698,"endTime":3637.715,"body":"revolutions would have?"},{"startTime":3638.185,"endTime":3643.955,"body":"Just because we've seen it historically that when you underestimate revolutions, they become more powerful."},{"startTime":3643.955,"endTime":3644.355,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":3644.495,"endTime":3649.26,"body":"And so I guess for, because some people would argue is that this is sort"},{"startTime":3649.26,"endTime":3652.755,"body":"of a, a western ver global north versus global south argument."},{"startTime":3652.755,"endTime":3653.275,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":3653.375,"endTime":3657.315,"body":"So I'm just curious as to, is that, is that the case back then?"},{"startTime":3657.375,"endTime":3659.395,"body":"Is and is that currently the case now?"},{"startTime":3662.215,"endTime":3669.515,"body":"Um, I think we tend to overestimate the power of Western governments to shape events."},{"startTime":3671.495,"endTime":3676.003,"body":"And it's very clear in the case of the Iranian revolution, if you go through,"},{"startTime":3676.003,"endTime":3676.303,"body":"you go through the file, go to the national archives in queue and go through"},{"startTime":3676.303,"endTime":3682.315,"body":"the files, cabinet office, foreign office,"},{"startTime":3684.095,"endTime":3689.653,"body":"And what, and the impression you get is that not only are these people not"},{"startTime":3689.653,"endTime":3690.023,"body":"shaping events, they barely have an idea of what's actually going on, and they're struggling"},{"startTime":3690.023,"endTime":3690.394,"body":"to find any source of information that will help them understand, you know, and it's"},{"startTime":3690.394,"endTime":3704.475,"body":"somewhat similar, very similar thing with the, with the Americans."},{"startTime":3705.255,"endTime":3710.043,"body":"And what you find is that the na the nature of Democratic government is such"},{"startTime":3710.043,"endTime":3713.235,"body":"that it takes time, it takes time to create policy."},{"startTime":3714.895,"endTime":3720.31,"body":"Uh, meetings have to be held, papers have to be written, officials have to be"},{"startTime":3720.31,"endTime":3721.755,"body":"consulted, and so on."},{"startTime":3721.755,"endTime":3724.691,"body":"And so by the time you've gone through all of that process, the facts on"},{"startTime":3724.691,"endTime":3725.475,"body":"the ground have changed."},{"startTime":3726.065,"endTime":3729.195,"body":"Your policy is already out of date, you see."},{"startTime":3729.335,"endTime":3734.617,"body":"And so, um, the picture that I have really is one of paralysis and, um,"},{"startTime":3734.617,"endTime":3734.969,"body":"and ignorance really of what's going on, and immense, immense frustration on the part of"},{"startTime":3734.969,"endTime":3744.125,"body":"those who did have some sense of what was going on \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":3744.825,"endTime":3749.301,"body":"Um, so I don't, you know, I think we have to be careful about, uh,"},{"startTime":3749.301,"endTime":3752.285,"body":"not in a way lowering our expectations a little bit."},{"startTime":3752.475,"endTime":3752.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3753.905,"endTime":3756.565,"body":"We had one question at the back, Amit Sabi."},{"startTime":3757.535,"endTime":3758.085,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3758.985,"endTime":3764.913,"body":"Uh, one question I have is regarding the role of other leaders during the revolution,"},{"startTime":3764.913,"endTime":3767.285,"body":"Raan, uh, like Sanja and Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":3767.325,"endTime":3771.765,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e, uh, Balhan himself and the other leftist leaders Hmm."},{"startTime":3772.065,"endTime":3779.707,"body":"Who failed to really move their supporters forward and basically surrendered everything to Khomeini, and"},{"startTime":3779.707,"endTime":3782.765,"body":"he managed to manipulate them seriously."},{"startTime":3783.035,"endTime":3786.525,"body":"What, was there any chance that they would succeed if they were not so weak?"},{"startTime":3787.445,"endTime":3792.065,"body":"I think we could have a, a lecture on their misreading of the, you know,"},{"startTime":3792.065,"endTime":3793.605,"body":"what I found very interesting?"},{"startTime":3793.605,"endTime":3797.982,"body":"I mean, I'm working on the, I'm writing a book about the Iranian revolution now,"},{"startTime":3797.982,"endTime":3798.274,"body":"and what I find really very interesting is the way in which even Khomeini himself"},{"startTime":3798.274,"endTime":3806.445,"body":"did not anticipate that he would be able to come to power so easily."},{"startTime":3807.865,"endTime":3813.925,"body":"Um, and that, uh, one, one of the main misreadings on the part of the"},{"startTime":3813.925,"endTime":3817.965,"body":"opposition was that the Shah would relinquish power so easily."},{"startTime":3819.025,"endTime":3824.257,"body":"The real expectation was that there would be a crackdown, that there would be enormous"},{"startTime":3824.257,"endTime":3824.606,"body":"vi similar to what we saw in Syria, for example, 2012, 13, you know, but"},{"startTime":3824.606,"endTime":3830.885,"body":"that didn't take place."},{"startTime":3831.945,"endTime":3836.476,"body":"Um, in fact, one of the frustrations of the British and the Americans beginning in"},{"startTime":3836.476,"endTime":3836.778,"body":"around November, December, 1978, was that it was quite clear the Shah had made up"},{"startTime":3836.778,"endTime":3837.08,"body":"his mind to leave, and he was searching for a sort of face saving way"},{"startTime":3837.08,"endTime":3846.445,"body":"to do that."},{"startTime":3847.025,"endTime":3851.835,"body":"You know, and I think what, what I find really extraordinary about the people that"},{"startTime":3851.835,"endTime":3856.005,"body":"you mentioned, Boag gone San Jbi, these are the, essentially the liberal figures."},{"startTime":3856.005,"endTime":3861.165,"body":"These are the, um, followers of the national front or the liberation movement."},{"startTime":3861.825,"endTime":3868.535,"body":"Um, what I find really extraordinary about them is, you know, why did they not"},{"startTime":3868.535,"endTime":3870.325,"body":"support Backyard's government, right?"},{"startTime":3870.355,"endTime":3875.645,"body":"Because here was so, so here's the sort of Kosky figure of the Iranian revolution."},{"startTime":3875.645,"endTime":3883.705,"body":"Here's somebody that the Shah essentially surrendered power to, uh, reluctantly someone who'd been a"},{"startTime":3883.705,"endTime":3891.765,"body":"political prisoner, um, someone who had spent his whole life fighting for constitutionalism in Iran."},{"startTime":3891.785,"endTime":3895.7,"body":"My goodness, when he was a student in France, he even joined the French resistance"},{"startTime":3895.7,"endTime":3897.005,"body":"and fought against the Nazis."},{"startTime":3897.045,"endTime":3898.045,"body":"I mean, what more do you want?"},{"startTime":3898.105,"endTime":3901.118,"body":"You know, if you're a liberal figure and you really want a sort of liberal"},{"startTime":3901.118,"endTime":3902.725,"body":"democracy in Iran, what more do you want?"},{"startTime":3902.865,"endTime":3903.205,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":3903.505,"endTime":3909.489,"body":"And yet, I think they rather opportunistically chose to oppose B'S government and throw in"},{"startTime":3909.489,"endTime":3911.085,"body":"their lot with Khomeini."},{"startTime":3911.085,"endTime":3914.651,"body":"And it had not, it did, it was not because of a misreading, I think"},{"startTime":3914.651,"endTime":3915.365,"body":"it was opportunism."},{"startTime":3915.465,"endTime":3919.852,"body":"It was a sense that Khomeini, the power that was coming was Khomeini, and if"},{"startTime":3919.852,"endTime":3922.485,"body":"they didn't side with him, they would become irrelevant."},{"startTime":3923.705,"endTime":3926.445,"body":"Um, that's my view."},{"startTime":3926.825,"endTime":3928.685,"body":"I'm, I'm gonna have to stop the questions there."},{"startTime":3928.865,"endTime":3931.845,"body":"Please do carry on sending the questions through Slido."},{"startTime":3932.065,"endTime":3936.485,"body":"We can hopefully persuade you to come and answer them in a podcast later on."},{"startTime":3936.485,"endTime":3936.765,"body":"Would"},{"startTime":3936.765,"endTime":3937.005,"body":"Be my"},{"startTime":3937.125,"endTime":3937.205,"body":"Pleasure."},{"startTime":3937.205,"endTime":3937.365,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3937.365,"endTime":3938.125,"body":"Which will be fantastic."},{"startTime":3938.195,"endTime":3938.485,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3938.485,"endTime":3938.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3938.705,"endTime":3940.765,"body":"In the meantime, , please thank Dr."},{"startTime":3941.355,"endTime":3941.965,"body":"Wonderful."}]}