{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.025,"endTime":10.041,"body":"It is great privilege indeed to have been invited to deliver this year's Alfred Vivino"},{"startTime":10.041,"endTime":11.045,"body":"Holocaust Memorial lecture."},{"startTime":11.845,"endTime":17.051,"body":"Although, as Sophie said, when I accepted the invitation to do so many months ago,"},{"startTime":17.051,"endTime":17.398,"body":"I scarcely imagined that I'd be speaking in the situation in which we find ourselves"},{"startTime":17.398,"endTime":22.605,"body":"today."},{"startTime":23.745,"endTime":30.836,"body":"On the 2nd of November, staff at the Venner Library discovered that the sign outside"},{"startTime":30.836,"endTime":31.309,"body":"its door in Russell Square had been defaced by someone who'd sprayed the word Gaza"},{"startTime":31.309,"endTime":40.765,"body":"on it as the director Dr."},{"startTime":40.955,"endTime":47.837,"body":"Toby Simpson, who's very good to see here tonight, said in an act, uh, it"},{"startTime":47.837,"endTime":48.296,"body":"was an act, obviously intended to cause damage and distress, and to use ignorance he"},{"startTime":48.296,"endTime":60.685,"body":"added as a weapon against an institution of learning is stupid and wrong."},{"startTime":60.825,"endTime":66.629,"body":"To lash out against Israel by targeting a Holocaust institution is an action that can"},{"startTime":66.629,"endTime":69.725,"body":"only make sense to anti-Semites and their enablers."},{"startTime":70.475,"endTime":76.965,"body":"This isn't the first time that an action of this kind has targeted the library."},{"startTime":77.755,"endTime":83.432,"body":"Five years ago in 2018, a poster in Russell Square Tube Station advertising an exhibition"},{"startTime":83.432,"endTime":83.81,"body":"at the Venner Holocaust Library on a nationwide Nazi pogrom of the ninth or 10th"},{"startTime":83.81,"endTime":84.189,"body":"of November, 1938 in Germany, popularly known as the Ice krisna or Knight of Broken"},{"startTime":84.189,"endTime":100.085,"body":"Glass from the glass shards that littered the streets of Germany's towns and cities."},{"startTime":100.935,"endTime":106.779,"body":"After the windows of some seven and a half thousand Jewish owned shops and premises"},{"startTime":106.779,"endTime":111.845,"body":"had been smashed by Nazi stormtroopers was defaced with the words free Palestine."},{"startTime":112.985,"endTime":119.167,"body":"But since 2018 and above all since the current crisis in the Middle East, the"},{"startTime":119.167,"endTime":124.525,"body":"number and intensity of such in such incidents has multiplied many times over."},{"startTime":125.465,"endTime":131.933,"body":"As Dr. Simpson has said, the proliferation of antisemitic has hate in the current climate"},{"startTime":131.933,"endTime":136.245,"body":"should be a matter of grave concern to us all."},{"startTime":137.395,"endTime":143.32,"body":"Between the first and 18th of October this year, the number of anti-Semitic hate crimes"},{"startTime":143.32,"endTime":146.085,"body":"officially recorded in London amounted to 218."},{"startTime":146.805,"endTime":154.717,"body":"A dramatic increase from the 15 1 5 reported over the same period last year,"},{"startTime":154.717,"endTime":155.245,"body":"from Saturday the 7th of October to Tuesday, 31st of October, the Community Security Trust,"},{"startTime":155.245,"endTime":155.772,"body":"the British Jewish Organization that plays a leading role in protecting vulnerable sites and monitoring"},{"startTime":155.772,"endTime":156.3,"body":"hate crime recorded 893 anti-Semitic incidents across the uk, the highest ever total recorded across"},{"startTime":156.3,"endTime":180.565,"body":"a 25 day period."},{"startTime":181.255,"endTime":187.705,"body":"Since the trust began reporting in 1984, these incidents included physical assaults and damage to"},{"startTime":187.705,"endTime":192.005,"body":"property as well as verbal abuse in person and online."},{"startTime":193.825,"endTime":198.588,"body":"The VNA Holocaust Library is the world's oldest research institution dedicated the history of the"},{"startTime":198.588,"endTime":198.905,"body":"mass murder of some 6 million Jewish people in Europe by the Nazis and their"},{"startTime":198.905,"endTime":206.845,"body":"allies in the 1930s, in the first half of the 1940s."},{"startTime":208.465,"endTime":211.565,"body":"It was founded in 1933 by Dr."},{"startTime":211.665,"endTime":218.44,"body":"Alfred Ner, as you see here, who in the years before the Nazis came to"},{"startTime":218.44,"endTime":218.891,"body":"power in Germany, worked for the Central Association of German citizens of Jewish faith, a"},{"startTime":218.891,"endTime":219.343,"body":"matting, a huge collection of anti-Semitic propaganda produced by the Nazis, including newspapers, posters, letters,"},{"startTime":219.343,"endTime":238.765,"body":"memoirs, school textbooks, magazines, and other materials, which he eventually brought to London In 1938."},{"startTime":239.345,"endTime":244.267,"body":"The libraries continued to enlarge its collection over the years, and the directors now added"},{"startTime":244.267,"endTime":248.205,"body":"the damaged sign to it, which is where of course it belongs."},{"startTime":249.395,"endTime":255.736,"body":"When I agreed to give this lecture many months ago, I chose the subject of"},{"startTime":255.736,"endTime":257.005,"body":"anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":257.625,"endTime":262.965,"body":"But now of course, I've got to address this in the context of recent events."},{"startTime":264.465,"endTime":271.609,"body":"On 7th of October this year, the self-styled Islamic resistance movement, Hamas founded during the"},{"startTime":271.609,"endTime":272.085,"body":"first Palestinian uprising or ADA against Israel in 1987 as a branch of the Muslim"},{"startTime":272.085,"endTime":272.561,"body":"Brotherhood and the ruling party in the Gaza Strip since 2006 launched a violent attack"},{"startTime":272.561,"endTime":273.038,"body":"on Israeli territory, during which some 1400 people in Israel, including young people attending a"},{"startTime":273.038,"endTime":297.805,"body":"music festival just three miles from the border were massacred."},{"startTime":298.155,"endTime":302.987,"body":"Some of them were tortured, including a young German Israeli female to two artists and"},{"startTime":302.987,"endTime":303.309,"body":"peace activist who was dragged away, killed her body, stripped and paraded through the streets"},{"startTime":303.309,"endTime":311.685,"body":"to cries of God is great from the men who surrounded him."},{"startTime":313.055,"endTime":319.591,"body":"Hamas did not spare children or old people or babies in the massacre, up to"},{"startTime":319.591,"endTime":320.027,"body":"200 Israelis and others, uh, more than 200 Israelis and others abducted during the assault"},{"startTime":320.027,"endTime":330.485,"body":"are being held as hostages by Kamas at undisclosed locations."},{"startTime":330.485,"endTime":331.925,"body":"Here are some being taken away."},{"startTime":333.185,"endTime":341.076,"body":"In retaliation, the Israeli government ordered a massive airborne and then ground assault on Gaza,"},{"startTime":341.076,"endTime":341.602,"body":"which has caused many more thousands of deaths, perhaps now, uh, almost 20,000 an inflicted"},{"startTime":341.602,"endTime":342.129,"body":"extreme suffering on the inhabitants of the strep deprived of food, water, medical care, subject"},{"startTime":342.129,"endTime":358.965,"body":"to continual, uh, bombardment."},{"startTime":359.465,"endTime":366.395,"body":"2 million men, women and children who live there are experiencing suffering, which is aroused,"},{"startTime":366.395,"endTime":366.857,"body":"horror and sympathy across the world, accompanied by growing demands from many quarters, including United"},{"startTime":366.857,"endTime":367.319,"body":"States, uh, president for a, a ceasefire, either for a pause in hostilities to enable"},{"startTime":367.319,"endTime":386.725,"body":"humanitarian relief to be given or a longer term end to the armed conflict."},{"startTime":389.075,"endTime":394.94,"body":"Essential supplies not only medicines and medical equipment, but also the basic necessities of life"},{"startTime":394.94,"endTime":395.331,"body":"like food, water, and shelter being denied to most of the civilian population with devastating"},{"startTime":395.331,"endTime":395.722,"body":"effects, maimed and injured children are forced to go without adequate treatment and are succumbing"},{"startTime":395.722,"endTime":407.845,"body":"to their injuries."},{"startTime":410.755,"endTime":412.645,"body":"What lies behind these terrible events?"},{"startTime":413.025,"endTime":418.356,"body":"Why have they come to, uh, lead to the rise of antisemitism in Britain and"},{"startTime":418.356,"endTime":420.845,"body":"other countries that I began by describing?"},{"startTime":422.385,"endTime":427.925,"body":"Let me turn, first of all to look more closely at Hamas and its ideology"},{"startTime":427.925,"endTime":428.295,"body":"before I move on, to examine the politics of the present government of the state"},{"startTime":428.295,"endTime":434.205,"body":"of Israel."},{"startTime":435.705,"endTime":437.685,"body":"That's Hamas for you."},{"startTime":437.905,"endTime":439.205,"body":"Who does it represent?"},{"startTime":439.425,"endTime":443.325,"body":"What's its relationship to the Palestinians?"},{"startTime":444.025,"endTime":451.678,"body":"In 1988, shortly after its formation, Hamas issued a covenant outlining its core aims and"},{"startTime":451.678,"endTime":452.188,"body":"belief to document that breathes a spirit of religious fanaticism of the most uncompromising kind"},{"startTime":452.188,"endTime":452.698,"body":"at its core, is a racist indeed genocidal conspiracy theory directed against Jews across the"},{"startTime":452.698,"endTime":467.495,"body":"world."},{"startTime":469.225,"endTime":476.214,"body":"Hamas believes that articles 22 and 32 of the covenant declare that Jews were behind"},{"startTime":476.214,"endTime":476.68,"body":"the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution in Russia, and most of the revolutions we heard"},{"startTime":476.68,"endTime":477.146,"body":"and hear about here and there, as it says, with their money it goes on,"},{"startTime":477.146,"endTime":477.612,"body":"the Jews were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries"},{"startTime":477.612,"endTime":502.775,"body":"in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption."},{"startTime":502.775,"endTime":504.415,"body":"There they were."},{"startTime":504.905,"endTime":505.815,"body":"Hamas goes on."},{"startTime":506.125,"endTime":512.19,"body":"They were behind World War I when they were able to destroy the Islamic caliphate"},{"startTime":512.19,"endTime":518.255,"body":"making that's, uh, let's say the Osman Empire, uh, making financial gains and controlling resources."},{"startTime":519.044,"endTime":520.933,"body":"They obtained the Baur declaration."},{"startTime":521.315,"endTime":528.337,"body":"That's the declaration that promised, uh, the Jews would have a state, uh, in, in,"},{"startTime":528.337,"endTime":531.615,"body":"uh, at then controlled British controlled Palestine."},{"startTime":534.205,"endTime":537.125,"body":"They formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world."},{"startTime":537.665,"endTime":538.285,"body":"It goes on."},{"startTime":538.315,"endTime":542.906,"body":"They were behind World War ii, through which they made huge financial gains by trading"},{"startTime":542.906,"endTime":546.885,"body":"in armaments and paved a great way for the establishment of their state."},{"startTime":547.745,"endTime":552.717,"body":"It was they, I the Jews who, uh, instigated the replacement of the League of"},{"startTime":552.717,"endTime":553.049,"body":"Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the"},{"startTime":553.049,"endTime":558.685,"body":"world through them."},{"startTime":559.595,"endTime":561.525,"body":"There's no war going on anywhere."},{"startTime":561.905,"endTime":565.525,"body":"Hermas continues without having their finger in it."},{"startTime":566.055,"endTime":569.125,"body":"Today, this Palestine tomorrow will be one country or another."},{"startTime":569.945,"endTime":572.725,"body":"The Zionist plan, it says, IM limitless."},{"startTime":573.255,"endTime":580.085,"body":"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates."},{"startTime":580.715,"endTime":586.011,"body":"When they have digested the region, they overtook, they aspire to further expansion and so"},{"startTime":586.011,"endTime":586.365,"body":"on."},{"startTime":586.655,"endTime":591.929,"body":"Their plan is embodied in the protocols of the elders of Zion, and their present"},{"startTime":591.929,"endTime":595.445,"body":"conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."},{"startTime":596.665,"endTime":600.245,"body":"So that's the end of the quote From the covenant of 1988."},{"startTime":601.615,"endTime":606.805,"body":"Hamas has never repudiated this covenant, but in 2017, it issued what was in effect."},{"startTime":606.845,"endTime":612.918,"body":"A new one described as supplemental, which made no mention of the protocols of the"},{"startTime":612.918,"endTime":613.323,"body":"elders of Zion, focused far more exclusively on the liberation of Palestine from Israel, as"},{"startTime":613.323,"endTime":613.728,"body":"they saw it toned down the religious element dropped the most obvious elements of antisemitism"},{"startTime":613.728,"endTime":629.925,"body":"and committed itself in principle to ideals such as freedom and democracy."},{"startTime":630.905,"endTime":639.067,"body":"It still proclaimed the need for, uh, armed struggle and, uh, the aim of the,"},{"startTime":639.067,"endTime":643.965,"body":"uh, destruction of Israel as a senior Hammas official."},{"startTime":644.705,"endTime":644.925,"body":"Azi."},{"startTime":645.405,"endTime":651.48,"body":"Hamad recently told the Lebanese television reporter here, 7th of October was just the first"},{"startTime":651.48,"endTime":651.885,"body":"time."},{"startTime":652.815,"endTime":658.523,"body":"There will be a second, a third, a fourth, asked if Hammas was bent on"},{"startTime":658.523,"endTime":659.285,"body":"Israel's annihilation."},{"startTime":659.625,"endTime":661.045,"body":"He replied, yes, of course."},{"startTime":663.345,"endTime":666.525,"body":"So in fact is in fact the aim of the struggle is not the liberation"},{"startTime":666.525,"endTime":668.645,"body":"of Palestine or the defense of the people of Gaza."},{"startTime":668.645,"endTime":674.834,"body":"Indeed, one Hamas official asked by a television reporter, if the organization's more than 300"},{"startTime":674.834,"endTime":675.247,"body":"mile network of underground tunnels in Gaza could be used to shelter civilians from bombing"},{"startTime":675.247,"endTime":684.325,"body":"raids from Israel explained this wasn't gonna happen."},{"startTime":684.695,"endTime":686.125,"body":"Quote, the tunnels are for us."},{"startTime":686.735,"endTime":692.887,"body":"Hamas, the citizens of the Za Strep, he said, are under the responsibility of the"},{"startTime":692.887,"endTime":693.297,"body":"United Nations end quote, despite the 2017, uh, additions to the covenant, which are more"},{"startTime":693.297,"endTime":693.707,"body":"secular and seemingly more reasonable in character, it's a naive illusion, I think, to think"},{"startTime":693.707,"endTime":710.525,"body":"that this has anything to do with democracy, humanitarian, or even Palestinian rights."},{"startTime":710.715,"endTime":716.987,"body":"It's true that Hamas won elections in Gaza early in 2006, but opinion polls indicated"},{"startTime":716.987,"endTime":717.405,"body":"that this was above all because voters thought Hamas would bring the rampant corruption of"},{"startTime":717.405,"endTime":717.823,"body":"the Qatar government in Palestine and the Gaza Strip to an end, other polls carried"},{"startTime":717.823,"endTime":735.805,"body":"out in Gaza at the same time, showed strong support for an agreement with Israel."},{"startTime":736.825,"endTime":743.437,"body":"In the summer of 2007, Hamas shown here, carried out a violent kta in Gaza,"},{"startTime":743.437,"endTime":747.845,"body":"killing Fata officials and closing down the institutions of democracy."},{"startTime":748.025,"endTime":754.227,"body":"And since then, the Jihadists of Hamas have Brooks neither opposition nor descent, exercising a"},{"startTime":754.227,"endTime":754.641,"body":"rigid Islamist extremist dictatorship over its inhabitants, including the end of elections, the banning of"},{"startTime":754.641,"endTime":763.325,"body":"same-sex relationships, and the repression of women."},{"startTime":765.315,"endTime":768.695,"body":"Now, it's notable, uh, that its original and still valid."},{"startTime":769.055,"endTime":773.055,"body":"1988 Covenant Hamas refers to the protocols of the elders of Zion."},{"startTime":773.055,"endTime":780.142,"body":"What is this document and, uh, why is it so widely cited by anti-Semitic conspiracy"},{"startTime":780.142,"endTime":780.615,"body":"theories?"},{"startTime":781.955,"endTime":788.836,"body":"The protocols are short tracked, published in Russia, in Zarris Russia that is in, in"},{"startTime":788.836,"endTime":789.295,"body":"1903."},{"startTime":789.995,"endTime":796.192,"body":"Uh, this purports to be the minutes or IE protocols of a secret meeting held"},{"startTime":796.192,"endTime":796.605,"body":"by Jewish elders on the sidelines of the first Zionist Congress held in Basel in"},{"startTime":796.605,"endTime":805.695,"body":"Switzerland in 1897, consisting of 24 short paragraphs."},{"startTime":805.795,"endTime":813.397,"body":"It presents an account written in the first person, uh, plural, uh, of how the"},{"startTime":813.397,"endTime":813.904,"body":"Jews are averting civilization by creating economic chaos and undermining the political order through movements"},{"startTime":813.904,"endTime":826.575,"body":"such as socialism and anarchism everywhere they cause revolutions and upheavals."},{"startTime":827.125,"endTime":830.935,"body":"They control the world's media dulling people's minds to the threat they pose."},{"startTime":831.925,"endTime":836.975,"body":"Once they achieve supreme power, they'll make Judaism the only permitted religion."},{"startTime":838.995,"endTime":843.695,"body":"All Jews over the world, it says, are controlled by the so-called elders who strategy"},{"startTime":843.695,"endTime":845.575,"body":"for world domination they slavishly follow."},{"startTime":848.195,"endTime":854.763,"body":"Now, the protocols are an obvious forgery exposed here in 1921 by the London Times"},{"startTime":854.763,"endTime":860.895,"body":"in a series of articles showing they were plagiarized from a mid 19th century."},{"startTime":860.995,"endTime":867.971,"body":"French satire rewritten with added elements copied from a gothic gothic novel written by an"},{"startTime":867.971,"endTime":868.436,"body":"ultra reactionary German police agent and forger around the same time in the wake of"},{"startTime":868.436,"endTime":868.901,"body":"the failed 1848 revolutions, uh, in the wake of the, um, a, a Bolshevik revolution"},{"startTime":868.901,"endTime":882.855,"body":"in 1917."},{"startTime":883.445,"endTime":889.511,"body":"This is taken up by Russian reactionaries who, uh, brought it to the West, where"},{"startTime":889.511,"endTime":889.916,"body":"it was translated into other languages and became well-known in far right circles the young"},{"startTime":889.916,"endTime":890.32,"body":"extremists who in 1923, for example, assassinated the German foreign minister, Alana, a Jewish liberal,"},{"startTime":890.32,"endTime":905.285,"body":"claimed to have committed their crime under its influence."},{"startTime":907.585,"endTime":910.525,"body":"The protocols cited by Hamas for a number of reasons."},{"startTime":911.455,"endTime":917.131,"body":"First and foremost, they claim to be proof of a world Jewish conspiracy that comes,"},{"startTime":917.131,"endTime":917.51,"body":"and it's a crucial point from the Jews themselves condemned, as it were, outta their"},{"startTime":917.51,"endTime":923.565,"body":"own mouth."},{"startTime":924.105,"endTime":925.365,"body":"Of course, this is nonsense."},{"startTime":926.225,"endTime":932.708,"body":"The 1897 Zionist Congress is a small rather obscure affair held at a time when"},{"startTime":932.708,"endTime":934.005,"body":"Zionist, uh, Zionism."},{"startTime":934.145,"endTime":939.382,"body":"The, the, the movement to encourage Jews to settle in Palestine was a tiny organization,"},{"startTime":939.382,"endTime":942.525,"body":"unknown even to the great majority of Jews themselves."},{"startTime":943.705,"endTime":949.473,"body":"The idea that it represented all Jews worldwide was no more than a fantasy it"},{"startTime":949.473,"endTime":952.165,"body":"had and has no foundation in reality."},{"startTime":953.645,"endTime":959.485,"body":"Secondly, the protocols are not framed in the traditional language of Christian antisemitism."},{"startTime":959.485,"endTime":964.855,"body":"There's no mention of the supposed guilt of the Jews for the death of Christ"},{"startTime":964.855,"endTime":965.214,"body":"or the Christian myth of the blood liable according to which Jews kidnapped and murdered"},{"startTime":965.214,"endTime":965.572,"body":"Christian boy, Christian boys in order to drink their blood, uh, uh, in a, a"},{"startTime":965.572,"endTime":965.93,"body":"kind of perverted ritual, or the accusation common sense and Middle Ages that Jews engaged"},{"startTime":965.93,"endTime":966.288,"body":"in the ritual desecration of the host, the wafer wide used at Holy communion to"},{"startTime":966.288,"endTime":966.646,"body":"carry the body and blood of Christ as a medieval illustration of this ritual, the"},{"startTime":966.646,"endTime":967.004,"body":"influence of the protocols can be seen in some aspects of the 1988 Hamas covenant,"},{"startTime":967.004,"endTime":967.362,"body":"such as the its mention of Freemasons and rather oddly rotary clubs as part of"},{"startTime":967.362,"endTime":1003.885,"body":"a world Jewish conspiracy."},{"startTime":1006.345,"endTime":1011.641,"body":"At its core, what matters is the idea that all Jews all over the world"},{"startTime":1011.641,"endTime":1015.525,"body":"are acting in concert behind the scenes to achieve global dominion."},{"startTime":1016.665,"endTime":1022.971,"body":"It was an idea central to the ideology of Nazism, shown very clearly in the"},{"startTime":1022.971,"endTime":1023.392,"body":"conspiracy theory that lay behind the collar horse, according to which the global community of"},{"startTime":1023.392,"endTime":1023.812,"body":"Jews was the instigator of every action taken by Germany's enemies and therefore, uh, had"},{"startTime":1023.812,"endTime":1024.233,"body":"to be entirely exterminated in his, uh, an astonishing Nazi propaganda poster, which imagines, uh,"},{"startTime":1024.233,"endTime":1024.653,"body":"a Jews are, as it says, behind the enemy powers the Jew, and this is"},{"startTime":1024.653,"endTime":1054.085,"body":"Britain, America, and the Soviet Union, all acting in concert, all steered from behind."},{"startTime":1054.185,"endTime":1059.635,"body":"You just have to think, uh, when, uh, about it to realize what absolute paranoid"},{"startTime":1059.635,"endTime":1060.725,"body":"nonsense this is."},{"startTime":1061.145,"endTime":1063.845,"body":"Stalin himself, the Soviet Union was antisemitic."},{"startTime":1064.505,"endTime":1071.454,"body":"Uh, for example, there's, uh, no evidence at all for any, uh, Jewish influence behind"},{"startTime":1071.454,"endTime":1071.917,"body":"Roosevelt or church, or the influence of the protocols can be seen in, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":1071.917,"endTime":1072.38,"body":"therefore in in some of this propaganda for the Nazis, this kind of global conspiracy"},{"startTime":1072.38,"endTime":1088.595,"body":"was a, a product of racial instinct."},{"startTime":1089.785,"endTime":1096.195,"body":"Already in the mid twenties, in his autobiographical tract and manifesto, mine come my struggle."},{"startTime":1098.015,"endTime":1105.272,"body":"Hitler expressed his belief that whatever their prominence, the protocols expressed in essential truth showing"},{"startTime":1105.272,"endTime":1105.756,"body":"consciously, he said he wrote what Jews did unconsciously writing his diary On the 13th"},{"startTime":1105.756,"endTime":1106.24,"body":"of May, 1943, the Nazi propaganda minister, yours of Bels agreed, has always been told"},{"startTime":1106.24,"endTime":1120.755,"body":"by staff."},{"startTime":1120.815,"endTime":1125.531,"body":"He reported that the protocols were not suitable to be used in propaganda, but this"},{"startTime":1125.531,"endTime":1126.475,"body":"wasn't the case."},{"startTime":1126.895,"endTime":1134.039,"body":"He concluded, even if the Zionist protocols are not genuine, he wrote, they were nonetheless"},{"startTime":1134.039,"endTime":1139.755,"body":"invented by a brilliant critic of the age midday he went on."},{"startTime":1139.915,"endTime":1143.635,"body":"I touch on the subject in conversation with the Furah Hitler."},{"startTime":1144.135,"endTime":1149.487,"body":"The furah he wrote takes the view that the Zionist protocols can make a claim"},{"startTime":1149.487,"endTime":1150.915,"body":"to be absolutely genuine."},{"startTime":1151.375,"endTime":1158.075,"body":"Nobody can describe the Jewish drive to world domination as the Jews themselves feel it."},{"startTime":1158.655,"endTime":1162.905,"body":"The Furah takes the view that the Jews don't need at all to work to"},{"startTime":1162.905,"endTime":1163.755,"body":"a fixed program."},{"startTime":1164.745,"endTime":1169.666,"body":"They work according to their racial instinct, which will always prompt them to undertake the"},{"startTime":1169.666,"endTime":1173.275,"body":"kind of action shown in the course of their entire history."},{"startTime":1174.735,"endTime":1179.845,"body":"The key aspect of the protocols was for the Nazis and others who cited them"},{"startTime":1179.845,"endTime":1184.275,"body":"not what they contained, uh, which frankly, in many paragraphs is quite nonsensical."},{"startTime":1185.655,"endTime":1191.782,"body":"But the fact that they exposed or seemed to exposed or could be claimed to"},{"startTime":1191.782,"endTime":1192.19,"body":"expose an essential truth about the Jews in the words of the Jews themselves, that"},{"startTime":1192.19,"endTime":1192.599,"body":"supposedly all Jews everywhere acted in concert to implement a secret set of aims for"},{"startTime":1192.599,"endTime":1193.007,"body":"world domination opinion within the leadership of highs about the relevance of the 1988 Covenant"},{"startTime":1193.007,"endTime":1193.416,"body":"has for some years been divided with some taking the view that's a historic document,"},{"startTime":1193.416,"endTime":1193.824,"body":"much of which no longer applies, others seeing it as a continued declaration of enduring"},{"startTime":1193.824,"endTime":1223.235,"body":"fundamental principles."},{"startTime":1224.015,"endTime":1230.118,"body":"But the 2017 additions reasonable, as many of them seem, are belied by the events"},{"startTime":1230.118,"endTime":1230.525,"body":"of 7th of October, where the distinction they drew between Jews and Zionists, uh, was"},{"startTime":1230.525,"endTime":1230.932,"body":"ignored by the men who carried out the indiscriminate massacres of men, women, children, and"},{"startTime":1230.932,"endTime":1246.395,"body":"babies, clearly driven above all by racial and religious hatred."},{"startTime":1249.105,"endTime":1253.987,"body":"The influence of conspiracy theory in a much milder form is evident in a much"},{"startTime":1253.987,"endTime":1254.313,"body":"more widespread belief that Israel and its Jewish population are part of a global Jewish"},{"startTime":1254.313,"endTime":1262.125,"body":"community that orchestrates support for whatever the Israeli government does."},{"startTime":1263.515,"endTime":1268.816,"body":"This can be recognized in claims, for example, that there is a Jewish lobby in"},{"startTime":1268.816,"endTime":1269.169,"body":"the USA, an assertion that echoes the 1988 Hamas coven and further back the Nazi,"},{"startTime":1269.169,"endTime":1269.522,"body":"uh, party in its belief that the press and the media are controlled by Jews"},{"startTime":1269.522,"endTime":1280.125,"body":"manifestly untrue."},{"startTime":1280.355,"endTime":1285.481,"body":"Even in the case of Germany in the early thirties, where the non-Jewish press mogul,"},{"startTime":1285.481,"endTime":1289.925,"body":"Alfred Berg was one of the most powerful media mags on the right."},{"startTime":1290.505,"endTime":1296.683,"body":"Uh, in of the time, Dominic Vidal writing on the antisemitism of the French far"},{"startTime":1296.683,"endTime":1297.095,"body":"right now somewhat toned down under the impact of recent events, had described the concept"},{"startTime":1297.095,"endTime":1297.507,"body":"of an all powerful Jewish lobby as a, a phrase that combines standard antisemitic fantasies"},{"startTime":1297.507,"endTime":1311.925,"body":"about Jewish finance, media control and power."},{"startTime":1312.025,"endTime":1317.708,"body":"The term is the contemporary evident, uh, equivalent she says, of the protocols of the"},{"startTime":1317.708,"endTime":1318.845,"body":"elders of Z."},{"startTime":1322.105,"endTime":1327.271,"body":"The absence of religious elements in the protocols pointed to a major change that had"},{"startTime":1327.271,"endTime":1331.405,"body":"come about in the nature of antisemitism in the late 19th century."},{"startTime":1332.305,"endTime":1336.285,"body":"Up to that point, hostility to Jews had been a matter of religion."},{"startTime":1336.905,"endTime":1343.249,"body":"If an adherence of Judaism converted to Christianity, then in theory at least, they no"},{"startTime":1343.249,"endTime":1343.672,"body":"longer be subjected to discrimination by the Christian majority in the country where they lived"},{"startTime":1343.672,"endTime":1351.285,"body":"during the Middle Ages."},{"startTime":1351.865,"endTime":1357.311,"body":"And for a long time afterwards, Jews as a small religious minority in Europe had"},{"startTime":1357.311,"endTime":1357.675,"body":"been to numerous restrictions on where they were allowed to live and what they're allowed"},{"startTime":1357.675,"endTime":1363.485,"body":"to do."},{"startTime":1364.635,"endTime":1371.173,"body":"It's made them vulnerable to scapegoating in times of crisis, pushed by conspiracy theories that"},{"startTime":1371.173,"endTime":1371.609,"body":"blame them, for example, for the massive and poorly understood mass deaths caused by the"},{"startTime":1371.609,"endTime":1372.045,"body":"Black Death Bubonic plague, uh, in 13 48 49, uh, when they're accused of poisoning"},{"startTime":1372.045,"endTime":1372.481,"body":"drinking water and subjected to massive popular violence above all in the Rhineland being burned"},{"startTime":1372.481,"endTime":1393.405,"body":"alive here in this contemporary illustration."},{"startTime":1394.825,"endTime":1401.301,"body":"But the emergence of racial theory, drawing on ideas first put forward by the evolutionist"},{"startTime":1401.301,"endTime":1401.732,"body":"Charles Darwin, the French racist artino and other writers, and then transformed into a kind"},{"startTime":1401.732,"endTime":1402.164,"body":"of poisonous, which is Brew of Prejudice, shifted the focus away from religion and towards"},{"startTime":1402.164,"endTime":1414.685,"body":"heredity."},{"startTime":1415.745,"endTime":1421.732,"body":"As we can see from the version of antisemitism espoused by Hitler and Bels, what"},{"startTime":1421.732,"endTime":1425.325,"body":"religion Jews followed here in this idea was immaterial."},{"startTime":1426.225,"endTime":1431.689,"body":"Indeed, in some ways, the Jews were seen as more dangerous if they abandoned Judaism"},{"startTime":1431.689,"endTime":1432.053,"body":"for Christianity 'cause it made them more difficult to identify what mattered was who they"},{"startTime":1432.053,"endTime":1441.525,"body":"were descended from, what mattered were what their supposed racial characteristics were."},{"startTime":1442.185,"endTime":1448.856,"body":"Of course, this is absurd in more ways than one Nazi cartoonists showed Jews as"},{"startTime":1448.856,"endTime":1451.525,"body":"hook knows, dark hair and overweight."},{"startTime":1452.065,"endTime":1456.965,"body":"Yet the third RIF forced them in, uh, from 1941 almost to identify themselves as"},{"startTime":1456.965,"endTime":1460.885,"body":"the yellow star in order to make it easy to identify them."},{"startTime":1461.985,"endTime":1466.65,"body":"Nor could the Nazis ever work out definitively what to do with people who were"},{"startTime":1466.65,"endTime":1468.205,"body":"half Jewish or quarter Jewish."},{"startTime":1469.385,"endTime":1474.942,"body":"Was their thinking like the Nazis here was their Jewish blood so potent that it"},{"startTime":1474.942,"endTime":1477.165,"body":"overwhelmed their Aryan or German blood?"},{"startTime":1477.555,"endTime":1478.605,"body":"What was it the other way around?"},{"startTime":1479.705,"endTime":1484.895,"body":"And when it came to filling in a certificate of racial identity forced on all"},{"startTime":1484.895,"endTime":1485.241,"body":"Germans under Nazi rule, the only way you could show whether or not you were"},{"startTime":1485.241,"endTime":1485.587,"body":"to any degree Jewish, was by using the official census, which before 1939, defined Jewishness"},{"startTime":1485.587,"endTime":1497.005,"body":"by religion and not race."},{"startTime":1498.805,"endTime":1507.411,"body":"During the 19th century, liberal reforms, extended civil rights to the previously disadvantaged Jewish religious"},{"startTime":1507.411,"endTime":1507.985,"body":"minority."},{"startTime":1510.485,"endTime":1516.04,"body":"But this led to a counter reaction by di uh, extreme conservatives, of which the"},{"startTime":1516.04,"endTime":1521.225,"body":"protocols, uh, or rather the sources in which they drew, uh, were an example."},{"startTime":1522.745,"endTime":1528.824,"body":"A further shift took place with a dissolution of Europe's global empires and the emergence"},{"startTime":1528.824,"endTime":1529.229,"body":"of post-colonial ideology directed above all that righting the wrongs done by empire and by"},{"startTime":1529.229,"endTime":1529.635,"body":"the continuation of European imperialism and American imperialism in other forms, one of the most"},{"startTime":1529.635,"endTime":1530.04,"body":"notable of the 2017 updates to the Hamas covenant refers to Israel as the product"},{"startTime":1530.04,"endTime":1550.305,"body":"of a racist anti-human and colonial Zionist project."},{"startTime":1551.365,"endTime":1557.385,"body":"And this is proved, uh, persuasive to many on the left."},{"startTime":1559.805,"endTime":1564.465,"body":"But is Zionism racist or colonial as a historian?"},{"startTime":1564.465,"endTime":1565.265,"body":"Simon Seaberg?"},{"startTime":1565.275,"endTime":1573.261,"body":"Montefiore has recently pointed out, and I quoting at the heart of decolonization ideology is"},{"startTime":1573.261,"endTime":1578.585,"body":"the categorization of all Israelis historic and present as colonists."},{"startTime":1579.445,"endTime":1583.745,"body":"But Simon Si Fury says, this is simply wrong."},{"startTime":1584.215,"endTime":1590.486,"body":"Most Israelis are descended from people who migrated to the Holy land from 1881 to"},{"startTime":1590.486,"endTime":1590.905,"body":"1949."},{"startTime":1591.695,"endTime":1594.305,"body":"They were not completely new to the region."},{"startTime":1595.325,"endTime":1596.025,"body":"I'm going on."},{"startTime":1596.445,"endTime":1601.731,"body":"Uh, to cite what he says, Jewish people ruled, ruled Judean kingdoms and prayed in"},{"startTime":1601.731,"endTime":1602.083,"body":"the Jerusalem temple for a thousand years, and then they were ever present there in"},{"startTime":1602.083,"endTime":1609.485,"body":"smaller numbers for the next 2000 years."},{"startTime":1610.025,"endTime":1613.759,"body":"In other words, Jews are indigenous to the holy land and one believes in the"},{"startTime":1613.759,"endTime":1617.245,"body":"return of exile people to their homeland and in the return of the Jews."},{"startTime":1617.675,"endTime":1623.796,"body":"Exactly, that even those who deny this history or regardless irrelevant to modern times, must"},{"startTime":1623.796,"endTime":1624.205,"body":"acknowledge."},{"startTime":1624.305,"endTime":1629.227,"body":"He says that, that, uh, that, that Israel is now the home and only home"},{"startTime":1629.227,"endTime":1633.165,"body":"of 9 million Israelis who've lived there for 4, 5, 6 generations."},{"startTime":1634.265,"endTime":1637.045,"body":"Yet he concludes his Israeli families."},{"startTime":1637.485,"endTime":1643.837,"body":"Residents in Israel for a century are still designated as settler colonists ripe for murder"},{"startTime":1643.837,"endTime":1644.685,"body":"and mutilation."},{"startTime":1645.845,"endTime":1652.557,"body":"Contrary to ha Hamas apologists, he says, the ethnicity of perpetrators or victims never justifies"},{"startTime":1652.557,"endTime":1653.005,"body":"atrocities."},{"startTime":1653.715,"endTime":1657.685,"body":"They will be atrocious anywhere committed by anyone with any history."},{"startTime":1658.025,"endTime":1659.485,"body":"And he might also have added that."},{"startTime":1659.815,"endTime":1664.801,"body":"After the extermination of 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their allies in Europe"},{"startTime":1664.801,"endTime":1665.134,"body":"on the sole grounds of their ethnicity, Israel became a refuge for Jewish people fleeing"},{"startTime":1665.134,"endTime":1673.445,"body":"persecution in many parts of the world, from Russia to Ethiopia."},{"startTime":1674.935,"endTime":1681.058,"body":"Given this history, the state of Israel, in my view, certainly has the right to"},{"startTime":1681.058,"endTime":1686.365,"body":"defend itself, the right to exist, yet historically, thus has cost others dearly."},{"startTime":1688.755,"endTime":1695.56,"body":"Some 700,000 non-Jewish Palestinians lost their homes in the course of the state of Israel's"},{"startTime":1695.56,"endTime":1702.365,"body":"creation outta the British mandate of Palestine in what Palestinians call the nakba or catastrophe."},{"startTime":1703.115,"endTime":1709.985,"body":"More than 500 Palestinian villages were destroyed or depopulated by Zionist militants in the late"},{"startTime":1709.985,"endTime":1714.565,"body":"forties with their former inhabitants, denied the right of return."},{"startTime":1714.635,"endTime":1719.605,"body":"Many of them fled to the Gaza Strip where their descendants still live."},{"startTime":1721.265,"endTime":1726.582,"body":"But as neighboring Arab states waged war on the nascent state of Israel, over a"},{"startTime":1726.582,"endTime":1726.937,"body":"quarter of a million Jews fled their territory or expelled from it, while many more"},{"startTime":1726.937,"endTime":1735.445,"body":"left other Islamic countries and took up residents in Israel."},{"startTime":1737.125,"endTime":1743.563,"body":"Conflict has continued above all the war of 1967 as Israel defeated an attempt to"},{"startTime":1743.563,"endTime":1748.285,"body":"destroy it by neighboring Arab countries, mainly Egypt, Syria, and Jordan."},{"startTime":1749.065,"endTime":1752.725,"body":"And again, in 1973 in the so-called Yom Kippur War."},{"startTime":1753.575,"endTime":1760.757,"body":"Since then, a peace process has brought a cessation of hostilities, though the original post-war,"},{"startTime":1760.757,"endTime":1761.236,"body":"United Nations plan for a two-state solution with independent, uh, Palestinian and Israeli states living"},{"startTime":1761.236,"endTime":1774.645,"body":"side by side Jerusalem being granted, international status has largely faded from the agenda."},{"startTime":1776.315,"endTime":1781.156,"body":"It's still surely in the longer term the only viable proposal for settling the con"},{"startTime":1781.156,"endTime":1782.125,"body":"the, uh, conflict."},{"startTime":1782.505,"endTime":1787.085,"body":"And in the 1990s, the two-state solution for a time looked a real possibility."},{"startTime":1787.225,"endTime":1795.212,"body":"But they're now really massive obstacles in the way the Palestinian authority creation in 1994"},{"startTime":1795.212,"endTime":1795.745,"body":"as part of the peace process has turned out to be both corrupt and inefficient"},{"startTime":1795.745,"endTime":1808.525,"body":"and also divided run by the Palestinian Liberation Organization ."},{"startTime":1808.905,"endTime":1814.291,"body":"It is heavily factionalized and since 2007 has lost its role in Gaza, only controlling"},{"startTime":1814.291,"endTime":1816.805,"body":"the West Bank of the River Jordan."},{"startTime":1817.665,"endTime":1822.87,"body":"If a two-state solution were to be adopted, this would be the basis for a"},{"startTime":1822.87,"endTime":1823.565,"body":"Palestinian state."},{"startTime":1823.705,"endTime":1831.982,"body":"And currently the Palestinian authority controls only 39% of the territory of the West Bank"},{"startTime":1831.982,"endTime":1835.845,"body":"with arrest being under Israeli military occupation."},{"startTime":1835.935,"endTime":1842.273,"body":"Since the 67 War, this is regarded as illegal by the international community, but it's"},{"startTime":1842.273,"endTime":1842.696,"body":"been subjected to the creation of a growing number of illegal Jewish settlements established in"},{"startTime":1842.696,"endTime":1850.725,"body":"both urban and rural areas."},{"startTime":1852.015,"endTime":1857.947,"body":"Since October the seventh, settlers have increased their aggression against the Palestinian and be inhabitants"},{"startTime":1857.947,"endTime":1863.485,"body":"of the area well over 120 of whom have been killed by armed settlers."},{"startTime":1864.745,"endTime":1870.079,"body":"The current Israeli government has done nothing to stop the settler movement or bring to"},{"startTime":1870.079,"endTime":1872.925,"body":"justice the people who murdered innocent Palestinian civilians."},{"startTime":1873.505,"endTime":1877.805,"body":"Indeed, it's doing everything it can to prevent a two-state solution."},{"startTime":1878.975,"endTime":1885.055,"body":"Prime Minister Netanyahu is on record of saying at a meeting of his own liquid"},{"startTime":1885.055,"endTime":1885.46,"body":"party in 2019, that, and I quote, anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of"},{"startTime":1885.46,"endTime":1896.405,"body":"a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas."},{"startTime":1896.955,"endTime":1898.725,"body":"This is part of our strategy."},{"startTime":1898.985,"endTime":1907.072,"body":"He said, Netanyahu's cabinet includes extremist such as Biza ish, currently Minister of Finance, who"},{"startTime":1907.072,"endTime":1911.925,"body":"declared there's no such thing as the Palestinian people."},{"startTime":1912.385,"endTime":1915.925,"body":"He displayed maps of Israel that include Jordan."},{"startTime":1916.825,"endTime":1923.125,"body":"Uh, he's advocated shooting Palestinian demonstrators and tweeted that Jewish and Palestinian women should be"},{"startTime":1923.125,"endTime":1924.805,"body":"segregated on hospital walls."},{"startTime":1925.905,"endTime":1931.731,"body":"Anyone who wants to protect the Jewish people who said and opposes mixed marriages, he"},{"startTime":1931.731,"endTime":1933.285,"body":"says, not a racist."},{"startTime":1934.435,"endTime":1941.425,"body":"Whoever wants to let Jews have a Jewish life without non-Jews is not a racist"},{"startTime":1941.425,"endTime":1946.085,"body":"schott's, uh, decisive plan, as he called it, 2017 envisage."},{"startTime":1946.105,"endTime":1948.965,"body":"And I quote again, flooding simply."},{"startTime":1949.105,"endTime":1956.055,"body":"So the areas of Judea and Samaria with settlements and Jewish settlements, when this happens,"},{"startTime":1956.055,"endTime":1957.445,"body":"he went on."},{"startTime":1958.065,"endTime":1961.781,"body":"The Palestinians are supposed to understand that they have no chance to get a state"},{"startTime":1961.781,"endTime":1962.525,"body":"of their own."},{"startTime":1963.265,"endTime":1969.793,"body":"They'd have to choose between one of three options, a life of subjugation under Israeli"},{"startTime":1969.793,"endTime":1972.405,"body":"rule, immigration, or a martyr's death."},{"startTime":1974.435,"endTime":1981.141,"body":"It's important to remember this context that some 25% of Israeli citizens are Arab, not"},{"startTime":1981.141,"endTime":1981.588,"body":"Jewish with democratic rights that SSM Smartish and his fellow extremists would like to see"},{"startTime":1981.588,"endTime":1982.035,"body":"removed more generally indeed, the Netanyahu government in which, uh, the times of Israel newspaper"},{"startTime":1982.035,"endTime":1997.685,"body":"has observed the extremists are increasingly settling."},{"startTime":1997.915,"endTime":2006.521,"body":"Setting the tone has been dismantling key pillars of democracy, such as the independence of"},{"startTime":2006.521,"endTime":2011.685,"body":"the judiciary, arousing, widespread, and furious protests in Israel."},{"startTime":2012.235,"endTime":2020.785,"body":"There's a cartoon illustrating, uh, the situation with regard to Hanya who's reforms of the"},{"startTime":2020.785,"endTime":2021.925,"body":"judicial system."},{"startTime":2021.955,"endTime":2027.565,"body":"Essentially bring it under, uh, under, uh, uh, government control."},{"startTime":2028.735,"endTime":2033.67,"body":"Underlying all this is a claim that the Jewish people have been granted by God,"},{"startTime":2033.67,"endTime":2038.605,"body":"exclusive control over a greater Israel in which the Palestinians have no right to live."},{"startTime":2040.755,"endTime":2045.041,"body":"The Gresham College lecture that you're listening to right now is giving you knowledge and"},{"startTime":2045.041,"endTime":2045.327,"body":"insight from one of the world's leading academic experts, making it takes a lot of"},{"startTime":2045.327,"endTime":2049.614,"body":"time."},{"startTime":2050.195,"endTime":2053.476,"body":"But because we want to encourage a love of learning, we think it's well worth"},{"startTime":2053.476,"endTime":2053.695,"body":"it."},{"startTime":2054.675,"endTime":2058.824,"body":"We never make you pay for lectures, although donations are needed, all we ask in"},{"startTime":2058.824,"endTime":2059.655,"body":"return is this."},{"startTime":2060.205,"endTime":2062.495,"body":"Send a link to this lecture to someone you think would benefit."},{"startTime":2062.875,"endTime":2066.525,"body":"And if you haven't already, click the follow or subscribe button from wherever you are"},{"startTime":2066.525,"endTime":2067.255,"body":"listening right now."},{"startTime":2068.315,"endTime":2070.295,"body":"Now, let's get back to the lecture."},{"startTime":2074.225,"endTime":2077.844,"body":"But these extremists are not widely supported in Israel."},{"startTime":2078.014,"endTime":2085.873,"body":"Opposition within the country to Netanyahu is widespread and determined its government's failure to warn"},{"startTime":2085.873,"endTime":2087.445,"body":"about and prevent."},{"startTime":2087.905,"endTime":2093.324,"body":"The Hamas atrocities of 7th of October have not been forgiven."},{"startTime":2094.155,"endTime":2101.381,"body":"Many Israelis are deeply uneasy about the policy of eliminating Hamas by destroying Gaza and"},{"startTime":2101.381,"endTime":2107.645,"body":"a military action that's been carried out indiscriminately and without plausible exit strategy."},{"startTime":2108.105,"endTime":2114.433,"body":"And it's causing untold, horrific human suffering, as well as arising global condemnation and deeply"},{"startTime":2114.433,"endTime":2116.965,"body":"damaging Israel's standing in the world."},{"startTime":2118.035,"endTime":2122.325,"body":"It's important to emphasize that justice Hamas and the Palestinians are not the same."},{"startTime":2123.265,"endTime":2130.221,"body":"The Netanyahu government and the Israelis are not the same either, let alone representing Jews"},{"startTime":2130.221,"endTime":2130.685,"body":"elsewhere."},{"startTime":2131.825,"endTime":2138.022,"body":"In the end, in my view, the two state solutions, the only conceivable way forward"},{"startTime":2138.022,"endTime":2138.435,"body":"to a longer term piece, plans involving land swaps seen here to make it more"},{"startTime":2138.435,"endTime":2147.525,"body":"viable, have been in place for some time."},{"startTime":2150.805,"endTime":2156.19,"body":"At the moment, the extremists are in charge, but at some point, they have to"},{"startTime":2156.19,"endTime":2157.985,"body":"find their way to compromise."},{"startTime":2158.645,"endTime":2163.674,"body":"The idea that Hamas can be eliminated purely by military means is completely unrealistic in"},{"startTime":2163.674,"endTime":2164.345,"body":"my view."},{"startTime":2165.125,"endTime":2167.705,"body":"It leads to terrible atrocities against civilians."},{"startTime":2168.965,"endTime":2175.012,"body":"The Israeli Defense Force may bomb hospitals in Gaza because Hamas has built tunnels underneath"},{"startTime":2175.012,"endTime":2176.625,"body":"them for military purposes."},{"startTime":2176.645,"endTime":2181.985,"body":"But all this does is to create yet more bitterness and extremism for the future."},{"startTime":2182.275,"endTime":2188.03,"body":"Among younger generations, Kama may slaughter Israeli civilians 'cause they think this is the way"},{"startTime":2188.03,"endTime":2193.785,"body":"towards the destruction of the state of Israel, and its replacement by an Islamist theocracy."},{"startTime":2195.255,"endTime":2200.102,"body":"But the effect of this policy is the same only makes Israel all the more"},{"startTime":2200.102,"endTime":2201.395,"body":"determined to defend itself."},{"startTime":2202.745,"endTime":2209.312,"body":"Wars end either when one side achieves victory, as in Europe and East Asia in"},{"startTime":2209.312,"endTime":2209.75,"body":"1945, or when both sides realize they're not going to win, as in Northern Ireland"},{"startTime":2209.75,"endTime":2216.755,"body":"in 1998."},{"startTime":2218.585,"endTime":2223.992,"body":"Unfortunately, there's uh, no persuasive signs this is gonna happen, or either of these things"},{"startTime":2223.992,"endTime":2226.155,"body":"gonna happen in Gaza anytime soon."},{"startTime":2227.445,"endTime":2232.555,"body":"There are widespread and growing demands for a ceasefire in Gaza."},{"startTime":2233.975,"endTime":2238.275,"body":"The conditions for this at the present are not anywhere near being fulfilled."},{"startTime":2239.165,"endTime":2244.983,"body":"First of all, there's no sign of the 200 and more Israeli hostages, uh, taken"},{"startTime":2244.983,"endTime":2248.475,"body":"by Hamas on the 7th of October being released."},{"startTime":2249.835,"endTime":2255.679,"body":"Secondly, Hamas has shown no willingness to stop firing rockets into Israel, which it does"},{"startTime":2255.679,"endTime":2260.355,"body":"every day on a large scale or abandoning its other military actions."},{"startTime":2260.935,"endTime":2266.705,"body":"Yet it's clear that without these commitments, Hamas would use a pause in a conflict"},{"startTime":2266.705,"endTime":2267.475,"body":"to regroup."},{"startTime":2267.555,"endTime":2274.005,"body":"And re thirdly, the Netanyahu government in Israel has consistently rejected requests for a cease"},{"startTime":2274.005,"endTime":2274.435,"body":"fire because it apparently believes it can achieve the total elimination of Hamas and doesn't"},{"startTime":2274.435,"endTime":2283.035,"body":"care, uh, about the human cost."},{"startTime":2283.035,"endTime":2289.595,"body":"This is already involving both sides have been and are committing war crimes against civilians."},{"startTime":2290.345,"endTime":2296.153,"body":"Time will surely allow a better accounting of these crimes in terms of their nature"},{"startTime":2296.153,"endTime":2297.315,"body":"number and severity."},{"startTime":2297.965,"endTime":2302.457,"body":"Likelihood of either side being held to account for them by the international community at"},{"startTime":2302.457,"endTime":2303.955,"body":"the moment is very small."},{"startTime":2306.415,"endTime":2312.755,"body":"So I don't really see a clear way out of the current conflict."},{"startTime":2313.815,"endTime":2320.817,"body":"One modest step would be for the supporters and sympathizers of both sides to tone"},{"startTime":2320.817,"endTime":2325.485,"body":"down their rhetoric and stop flinging about accusations of Nazism."},{"startTime":2326.275,"endTime":2331.445,"body":"Some Israeli politicians accuse Hamas in particular, behaving like Nazis."},{"startTime":2331.445,"endTime":2338.266,"body":"Though the prime motivation of Hamas is religious and that of the real Nazis was"},{"startTime":2338.266,"endTime":2340.995,"body":"certainly not, others have claimed that."},{"startTime":2340.995,"endTime":2346.935,"body":"In contrast to Hamas on the 7th of October, the actual perpetrator of the Holocaust"},{"startTime":2346.935,"endTime":2352.875,"body":"during World War II killed Jews reluctantly, though in fact, they did so with glee."},{"startTime":2353.495,"endTime":2359.395,"body":"And, uh, you can see this from the compilation of their testimonies in a book"},{"startTime":2359.395,"endTime":2359.788,"body":"edited 20 odd, odd years ago by CLE and others entitled, those were the Days"},{"startTime":2359.788,"endTime":2368.835,"body":"the Holocaust through the eyes of perpetrators and bystanders."},{"startTime":2368.855,"endTime":2373.571,"body":"You can read dead and nauseating testimony of Nazi mass murders who are clearly enjoying"},{"startTime":2373.571,"endTime":2374.515,"body":"what they did."},{"startTime":2376.945,"endTime":2379.895,"body":"Hamas routinely refers to Zionists as Nazis."},{"startTime":2380.915,"endTime":2386.874,"body":"An equation made by the more extreme of its sympathizers, as in this banner carried"},{"startTime":2386.874,"endTime":2389.655,"body":"during the recent pro-Palestinian demonstration in London."},{"startTime":2390.755,"endTime":2396.295,"body":"You can see there the star, the Jewish star intertwined with the soft."},{"startTime":2397.555,"endTime":2403.382,"body":"That's only a very small minority of the demonstrators, most of whom are, are motivated"},{"startTime":2403.382,"endTime":2403.77,"body":"by, uh, a, a genuine, I think a genuine concern for peace and a stop"},{"startTime":2403.77,"endTime":2410.375,"body":"to the slaughter."},{"startTime":2411.235,"endTime":2416.215,"body":"But language has its own effect in fueling extremism."},{"startTime":2416.405,"endTime":2422.495,"body":"It's made recently clear by the, uh, uh, home secretary that then home secretary."},{"startTime":2422.805,"endTime":2427.923,"body":"It's hard, hard to keep track, uh, or swell braman in labeling November the 11th,"},{"startTime":2427.923,"endTime":2428.265,"body":"peace March, a hate march, which then called forth the real hate marches in the"},{"startTime":2428.265,"endTime":2436.455,"body":"form of the violent counter protesters at the far right."},{"startTime":2437.875,"endTime":2442.693,"body":"It would help if politicians and parts of the news media could avoid inflaming the"},{"startTime":2442.693,"endTime":2443.015,"body":"situation."},{"startTime":2444.325,"endTime":2449.95,"body":"Conspiracy theories in particular are a powerful element in driving extremism, not only in the"},{"startTime":2449.95,"endTime":2454.075,"body":"Middle East, but in other parts of the world as well."},{"startTime":2455.255,"endTime":2461.04,"body":"One of the most influential is the so-called Great Replacement Theory, which, uh, posits a"},{"startTime":2461.04,"endTime":2461.426,"body":"hidden conspiracy to replace the, the, uh, Jewish population of Israel with Arabs and Muslims"},{"startTime":2461.426,"endTime":2461.812,"body":"who are deliberately having more children in order in the long run to take over"},{"startTime":2461.812,"endTime":2474.155,"body":"the state of Israel."},{"startTime":2474.535,"endTime":2482.497,"body":"Or alternatively, uh, there's a hidden plot to replace the white majority in the USA"},{"startTime":2482.497,"endTime":2487.275,"body":"with blacks and, and Hispanics, uh, and yes, Jews."},{"startTime":2488.705,"endTime":2495.525,"body":"This is from the, uh, Charlottesville, uh, demonstration of white supremacists a few years back."},{"startTime":2496.675,"endTime":2503.606,"body":"Far-right Conspiracists who allege there's a plot to force Sharia law in European countries turning"},{"startTime":2503.606,"endTime":2504.068,"body":"Europe into Arabia have spread across the internet, particularly now since Twitter's being deregulated and"},{"startTime":2504.068,"endTime":2504.53,"body":"anti-imperialist sentiment in the uk, as in other country, European countries, all too easily spills"},{"startTime":2504.53,"endTime":2518.855,"body":"over into Islamophobia."},{"startTime":2519.125,"endTime":2526.094,"body":"There's been a sevenfold increase in islamaphobic incidents in this country since the 7th of"},{"startTime":2526.094,"endTime":2532.135,"body":"October, including hate crimes and incidents of physical as well as verbal abuse."},{"startTime":2533.365,"endTime":2540.898,"body":"Even more bizarre conspiracy theories have emerged, including, for example, the idea that the atrocities"},{"startTime":2540.898,"endTime":2541.4,"body":"committed by Hamas on the 7th of October were a false flag operation conducted by"},{"startTime":2541.4,"endTime":2541.903,"body":"the Israeli security forces to provide a pretext for the bombing and invasion of Garza"},{"startTime":2541.903,"endTime":2542.405,"body":"paranoid, paranoid conspiracy fantasy has no base at all in reality, and one of the"},{"startTime":2542.405,"endTime":2542.907,"body":"most widespread conspiracy theories involves the self side fantasy of Q Anon, which puts forward"},{"startTime":2542.907,"endTime":2576.055,"body":"the idea as an anonymous figure Q usually identify with."},{"startTime":2576.055,"endTime":2582.36,"body":"Donald Trump is leading a crusade against Hillary Clinton, various Hollywood media stars who are"},{"startTime":2582.36,"endTime":2582.78,"body":"kidnapping young boys and draining their blood for medical and other purposes, of course, the"},{"startTime":2582.78,"endTime":2583.2,"body":"modern version of the antiseptic Medieval Bloods liable in which Jews are accused, often with"},{"startTime":2583.2,"endTime":2600.015,"body":"fatal results of committing the same crimes for supposedly reli religious purposes."},{"startTime":2601.375,"endTime":2607.375,"body":"A central figure and such paranoid conspiracy theories as being the billionaire George sro, who's"},{"startTime":2607.375,"endTime":2610.175,"body":"used his fortune to support liberal causes."},{"startTime":2610.555,"endTime":2617.709,"body":"And it's no coincidence that he's Jewish by origin, such anti-Semitic conspiracies, uh, conspiracy theories"},{"startTime":2617.709,"endTime":2618.186,"body":"spread with unprecedented repeated across the internet and the removal of content monitoring on some"},{"startTime":2618.186,"endTime":2618.663,"body":"social media outlets, notably Twitter or X, as we must now call it, as well"},{"startTime":2618.663,"endTime":2619.139,"body":"as Telegram, have made it easier for these fantasies to gain traction, controlling them more"},{"startTime":2619.139,"endTime":2619.616,"body":"effectively, surely necessary if we were to stop the degradation of political discourse and truth,"},{"startTime":2619.616,"endTime":2651.095,"body":"uh, and curb the dissemination of harmful hate-filled conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":2652.325,"endTime":2658.516,"body":"Well, as I'm speaking this morning, a short term truth has been negotiated through Qatar,"},{"startTime":2658.516,"endTime":2664.295,"body":"between QAs and Israeli government to allow humanitarian intervention finally, on a meaningful scale."},{"startTime":2665.445,"endTime":2670.415,"body":"Perhaps this will be the starting point for a more lasting, more widespread ceasefire."},{"startTime":2670.675,"endTime":2675.821,"body":"Of course, many obstacles lie ahead, but we must surely hope that they can be"},{"startTime":2675.821,"endTime":2676.165,"body":"overcome."},{"startTime":2676.415,"endTime":2677.165,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":2680.825,"endTime":2684.575,"body":"So, um, I'm going to take the chair's Proative and start with a quick question,"},{"startTime":2684.575,"endTime":2685.325,"body":"if I may."},{"startTime":2685.665,"endTime":2691.777,"body":"Um, so part of what we are talking about tonight is a situation which has"},{"startTime":2691.777,"endTime":2695.445,"body":"been fueled by the perpetuation of these conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":2695.445,"endTime":2696.645,"body":"Mm-hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e like over history."},{"startTime":2696.865,"endTime":2700.373,"body":"And you spoke a bit and you sort of gestured about how these have changed"},{"startTime":2700.373,"endTime":2700.607,"body":"over time and how, um, in the course of their sort of evolution, they never"},{"startTime":2700.607,"endTime":2705.285,"body":"quite go away, but they changed."},{"startTime":2705.665,"endTime":2708.885,"body":"So it might have been sort of religiously orientated Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2708.925,"endTime":2712.005,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e at one point with the sort of bloodletting and all that sort of thing."},{"startTime":2712.005,"endTime":2712.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2712.165,"endTime":2716.823,"body":"And that's sort of the religious element's gone, but we're seeing again, it reappears in"},{"startTime":2716.823,"endTime":2717.445,"body":"different forms."},{"startTime":2717.445,"endTime":2717.845,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2717.885,"endTime":2722.885,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":2718.065,"endTime":2722.19,"body":"Um, I suppose my question is sort of if I could draw you on a"},{"startTime":2722.19,"endTime":2722.465,"body":"little bit more about how these stories have traveled through time, why they're so persistent,"},{"startTime":2722.465,"endTime":2727.965,"body":"why they're so compelling to people."},{"startTime":2728.835,"endTime":2733.039,"body":"Well, first of all, as I said, uh, although there were Muslims in parts of"},{"startTime":2733.039,"endTime":2733.319,"body":"Europe in in the Middle Ages, the Jewish minority was much more widespread in sort"},{"startTime":2733.319,"endTime":2738.085,"body":"of small pockets."},{"startTime":2738.865,"endTime":2744.285,"body":"And this is a society, medieval Europe, which is dominated, it's universally religious."},{"startTime":2744.945,"endTime":2747.605,"body":"Uh, political rule is also religious rule."},{"startTime":2748.105,"endTime":2750.765,"body":"Uh, and that lasted well into the 19th century."},{"startTime":2750.905,"endTime":2758.128,"body":"But then, as I said, the, uh, when, uh, social Darwinism and adaptation of Darwin,"},{"startTime":2758.128,"endTime":2758.609,"body":"uh, in a, a kind of racist sense, seeing, uh, history as a struggle between"},{"startTime":2758.609,"endTime":2769.685,"body":"races for supremacy, then, uh, that involved the Jews."},{"startTime":2770.065,"endTime":2776.12,"body":"It built on the, on the, um, history of religious antisemitism and took on a"},{"startTime":2776.12,"endTime":2780.965,"body":"new form with the spread of racial doctrine and racial racial theory."},{"startTime":2781.065,"endTime":2786.339,"body":"And you still have a minority because, uh, the Jews are banned from many, many"},{"startTime":2786.339,"endTime":2786.69,"body":"activities in the Middle Ages and the early modern period, such as land earning, for"},{"startTime":2786.69,"endTime":2791.965,"body":"example."},{"startTime":2792.705,"endTime":2799.049,"body":"And, uh, so they were focused in a, a number of particular occupations, law banking"},{"startTime":2799.049,"endTime":2799.472,"body":"with money lending, because the, uh, Christian, uh, rule for bad money lending usy, it"},{"startTime":2799.472,"endTime":2807.085,"body":"was, it was known."},{"startTime":2807.545,"endTime":2813.698,"body":"Uh, but so the Jews became, uh, concentrated in certain towns and in certain activities,"},{"startTime":2813.698,"endTime":2814.108,"body":"and it was a kind of easy paranoid conspiracy theory to grasp for when you"},{"startTime":2814.108,"endTime":2826.005,"body":"had an already discriminated minority who could then form a center of these, these fantasies."},{"startTime":2826.785,"endTime":2829.565,"body":"You get almost like a palest effect of Yes, exactly."},{"startTime":2829.565,"endTime":2832.165,"body":"Stories, feeding stories, begetting stories, yeah."},{"startTime":2832.345,"endTime":2833.005,"body":"And so on."},{"startTime":2833.175,"endTime":2833.525,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2833.525,"endTime":2835.405,"body":"So we've got some great questions coming through for you."},{"startTime":2835.905,"endTime":2840.487,"body":"Um, so radio fours all in the mind this week cites a study that the"},{"startTime":2840.487,"endTime":2844.765,"body":"level of all conspiracy theories is quite static and has been since the 1960s."},{"startTime":2845.425,"endTime":2853.365,"body":"Um, has there been much fresh recent, um, research into, um, specifically anti-Semitic theories?"},{"startTime":2853.385,"endTime":2853.805,"body":"Do you know?"},{"startTime":2854.345,"endTime":2856.205,"body":"Or is this an area that we need to catch up on?"},{"startTime":2856.585,"endTime":2856.805,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2856.865,"endTime":2863.66,"body":"Uh, well, of course there are teams, uh, of academics and researchers and social scientists"},{"startTime":2863.66,"endTime":2865.925,"body":"everywhere working on conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":2866.705,"endTime":2875.386,"body":"Um, I ran one in Cambridge from 2013 to 2018, funded by the Lie Him"},{"startTime":2875.386,"endTime":2875.965,"body":"Trust."},{"startTime":2876.545,"endTime":2881.964,"body":"Uh, and we looked at a whole range of conspiracy theories, um, because they have"},{"startTime":2881.964,"endTime":2882.325,"body":"become more widespread, more frequent and applied to almost everything, almost, almost nothing of any"},{"startTime":2882.325,"endTime":2882.687,"body":"note happens in the world without somebody developing a conspiracy theory about it, uh, these"},{"startTime":2882.687,"endTime":2893.165,"body":"days."},{"startTime":2893.225,"endTime":2900.921,"body":"And that is also partly the influence of the, of the internet, um, uh, and"},{"startTime":2900.921,"endTime":2906.565,"body":"of course work on apparently superficially, uh, non antisemitic conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":2906.635,"endTime":2913.391,"body":"Like Q Anon has then turned out, turned up that the, the, uh, ha has"},{"startTime":2913.391,"endTime":2917.445,"body":"revealed there actually the, the antisemitic background to them."},{"startTime":2917.785,"endTime":2919.325,"body":"So there's a lot of work is going on here."},{"startTime":2919.325,"endTime":2925.595,"body":"They, it's essentially always the same kind of conspiracy theory, conspiracy theories, uh, the ascription"},{"startTime":2925.595,"endTime":2926.013,"body":"of, uh, events to a hidden machinations, uh, and intentions of a, a group of"},{"startTime":2926.013,"endTime":2936.045,"body":"people, whether it's a large one or a small one."},{"startTime":2936.505,"endTime":2939.576,"body":"Uh, so there's a lot of work going on in this area, and we're learning"},{"startTime":2939.576,"endTime":2940.805,"body":"more about them all the time."},{"startTime":2940.945,"endTime":2945.965,"body":"But it's like the, uh, the legend of, uh, Hercules and the Hydra."},{"startTime":2945.965,"endTime":2948.365,"body":"You know, every time you chop one head off, another one turns up."},{"startTime":2949.425,"endTime":2953.672,"body":"And it's interesting how these, um, stories will somehow seem to find a way to"},{"startTime":2953.672,"endTime":2954.805,"body":"connect to each other."},{"startTime":2954.805,"endTime":2954.925,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2954.925,"endTime":2955.805,"body":"So they have this sort of That's right."},{"startTime":2955.905,"endTime":2958.125,"body":"Hugely conspiratorial metaverse, yes."},{"startTime":2958.145,"endTime":2958.645,"body":"In the end."},{"startTime":2958.755,"endTime":2959.365,"body":"Wonderful."},{"startTime":2959.965,"endTime":2964.965,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2960.355,"endTime":2961.285,"body":"Very, very exciting."},{"startTime":2961.285,"endTime":2961.685,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2961.865,"endTime":2966.848,"body":"Um, so someone wanting to draw a little or pull this, um, element out a"},{"startTime":2966.848,"endTime":2967.845,"body":"little bit further."},{"startTime":2968.435,"endTime":2970.965,"body":"What, what are the pur what is the purpose of these theories?"},{"startTime":2970.965,"endTime":2975.301,"body":"I mean, I think you've touched on that, but maybe more specifically, why, why do"},{"startTime":2975.301,"endTime":2977.325,"body":"you so often the focus of them,"},{"startTime":2978.145,"endTime":2978.765,"body":"Why do, why do"},{"startTime":2978.765,"endTime":2983.141,"body":"I why do you so often the focus of these sort of, uh, theories or"},{"startTime":2983.141,"endTime":2983.725,"body":"conspiracy theories?"},{"startTime":2983.915,"endTime":2984.205,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2984.355,"endTime":2990.96,"body":"Well, um, if you, of course, psychologists have looked at the people who spread them,"},{"startTime":2990.96,"endTime":2996.685,"body":"and partly political motivation, uh, it's partly has a sort of psychological compensation."},{"startTime":2997.385,"endTime":3002.928,"body":"So when you look at who supports them, uh, you often find that it's people"},{"startTime":3002.928,"endTime":3005.885,"body":"who feel disempowered in some way or marginalized."},{"startTime":3006.545,"endTime":3013.026,"body":"Uh, we had in our project, uh, an arrangement with Ugo, the pollsters, the pollsters,"},{"startTime":3013.026,"endTime":3013.458,"body":"and just before Brexit, uh, they, uh, investigated the propensity of supporters and members of"},{"startTime":3013.458,"endTime":3025.125,"body":"different political parties to believe in conspiracy theories of some kind or another."},{"startTime":3025.905,"endTime":3031.356,"body":"And, uh, we, we found that supporters of EU kipp were much more likely to"},{"startTime":3031.356,"endTime":3036.445,"body":"believe in conspiracy theories, obviously, 'cause they felt they were out outside the mainstream."},{"startTime":3037.065,"endTime":3043.455,"body":"And it's also, um, you have a, a, if you believe in conspiracy theory, what"},{"startTime":3043.455,"endTime":3043.881,"body":"you believe in is that you and your friends know the real truth behind whatever"},{"startTime":3043.881,"endTime":3051.125,"body":"it might be."},{"startTime":3051.195,"endTime":3054.485,"body":"Nine 11, uh, is one example."},{"startTime":3055.185,"endTime":3060.485,"body":"Um, moon landings not necessarily political, uh, but you know, the real truth."},{"startTime":3060.625,"endTime":3065.045,"body":"And that gives you a feeling that you are much better than scientists."},{"startTime":3065.705,"endTime":3071.076,"body":"You know, that COVID-19 was manufactured in a Chinese lab, for example, you know, uh,"},{"startTime":3071.076,"endTime":3071.434,"body":"that, uh, you have the truth about the vaccines that, uh, covid vaccines, that they're"},{"startTime":3071.434,"endTime":3071.792,"body":"really a conspiracy by Bill Gates and others to inject people, and they'll throw a"},{"startTime":3071.792,"endTime":3084.685,"body":"switch and you all turn it to zombies."},{"startTime":3084.945,"endTime":3090.605,"body":"So, uh, and this eminent scientists and distinguished people are all fools."},{"startTime":3090.865,"endTime":3095.121,"body":"You are the one with the real knowledge, and that has a huge psychological compensatory"},{"startTime":3095.121,"endTime":3095.405,"body":"effect."},{"startTime":3096.265,"endTime":3099.795,"body":"So if you're not doing quite so well, or as well as you think you"},{"startTime":3099.795,"endTime":3103.325,"body":"should be doing in the world, in society, then maybe you find stories for reasons."},{"startTime":3103.835,"endTime":3104.845,"body":"Well, it could be, yes."},{"startTime":3104.845,"endTime":3110.857,"body":"I mean, in the 18, um, 1880s, 1890s in rural Protestant, rural Germany, for example,"},{"startTime":3110.857,"endTime":3111.258,"body":"um, there's an economic crisis in 1873, and a lot of hardworking small farmers found"},{"startTime":3111.258,"endTime":3111.659,"body":"that they were going bankrupt without actually being anything to do, able to do anything"},{"startTime":3111.659,"endTime":3123.685,"body":"about it."},{"startTime":3123.785,"endTime":3128.573,"body":"And they were then, uh, became recruited by, uh, anti-Semitic activists who said, look, it's"},{"startTime":3128.573,"endTime":3132.405,"body":"all the fault of the Jews in the banks in the cities."},{"startTime":3133.105,"endTime":3135.725,"body":"Um, you, you may not, you know, you can't work harder."},{"startTime":3135.945,"endTime":3140.571,"body":"The harder you work, the worse it getss, but it's all a plot to destroy"},{"startTime":3140.571,"endTime":3141.805,"body":"your good, hardworking Germans."},{"startTime":3141.865,"endTime":3142.365,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":3142.915,"endTime":3143.205,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3143.985,"endTime":3145.765,"body":"So, um, there's another question here."},{"startTime":3146.145,"endTime":3150.365,"body":"Um, are we seeing something actually right now just a little bit different?"},{"startTime":3150.365,"endTime":3151.725,"body":"So we've been talking about conspiracy."},{"startTime":3151.795,"endTime":3157.545,"body":"Some conspiracy theories is something which, although quite possibly your farmers are a useful link"},{"startTime":3157.545,"endTime":3157.928,"body":"here as something that often belongs to a sort of fringe minority or a very"},{"startTime":3157.928,"endTime":3164.445,"body":"right wing minority."},{"startTime":3164.785,"endTime":3170.752,"body":"But increasingly, we're actually seeing elements, elements, aspects of them cited by, um, a kind"},{"startTime":3170.752,"endTime":3175.925,"body":"of new anti-racist, almost Black Lives Matter style view of Israeli white colonists."},{"startTime":3176.025,"endTime":3179.685,"body":"Is this, is this quite firstly, is this quite a, a sort of new departure?"},{"startTime":3180.265,"endTime":3183.725,"body":"Um, and is this something we should be concerned about?"},{"startTime":3184.255,"endTime":3187.605,"body":"We've certainly got, um, more traction, I think, recently."},{"startTime":3188.185,"endTime":3195.085,"body":"Um, but, uh, I, it doesn't seem to me that Palestinians and pro Palestinians are"},{"startTime":3195.085,"endTime":3196.005,"body":"conspiracy theorists."},{"startTime":3196.705,"endTime":3203.423,"body":"Uh, what they believe is there is a hidden truth behind Zionism, which there's a"},{"startTime":3203.423,"endTime":3203.871,"body":"form of imperialism and colonialism, but it's not the same level as, um, antisemitic conspiracy"},{"startTime":3203.871,"endTime":3211.485,"body":"theories, for example."},{"startTime":3212.305,"endTime":3214.245,"body":"So I think that is relatively new."},{"startTime":3214.865,"endTime":3218.205,"body":"Uh, and it has existed for some time, but it's now much more widespread."},{"startTime":3219.145,"endTime":3223.897,"body":"So the distinction to jaw maybe is that there is, um, do you, would you"},{"startTime":3223.897,"endTime":3224.214,"body":"say that there's more of a sort of conscious condemnation of Israel, rightly or wrongly,"},{"startTime":3224.214,"endTime":3233.085,"body":"but not necessarily, but that's a distinction we should draw from something more anti-Semitic."},{"startTime":3233.515,"endTime":3233.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3233.915,"endTime":3235.565,"body":"It's been around for a time, I think."},{"startTime":3235.755,"endTime":3236.045,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3236.985,"endTime":3238.165,"body":"Um, let's see."},{"startTime":3239.305,"endTime":3243.627,"body":"Um, so a couple of questions, again, drawing back to these ideas about how, um,"},{"startTime":3243.627,"endTime":3245.645,"body":"the internet and media is fueling this."},{"startTime":3245.645,"endTime":3247.285,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e, I've got a question from Victoria."},{"startTime":3247.285,"endTime":3248.045,"body":"Thank you, Victoria."},{"startTime":3248.385,"endTime":3252.245,"body":"How much of social media is fueling the rise of anti-Semitic crimes?"},{"startTime":3252.945,"endTime":3255.997,"body":"And then, um, someone else said into this, which I think connects so we'll put"},{"startTime":3255.997,"endTime":3256.405,"body":"them together."},{"startTime":3256.865,"endTime":3260.287,"body":"Um, how much stock do you think there is in the i in the idea"},{"startTime":3260.287,"endTime":3261.885,"body":"that we are in a post-truth era?"},{"startTime":3262.305,"endTime":3267.12,"body":"And has there been any great shift in the way these conspiracy theories are being"},{"startTime":3267.12,"endTime":3268.405,"body":"propagated and spread now?"},{"startTime":3268.625,"endTime":3268.845,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3269.045,"endTime":3274.61,"body":"I, I think, uh, a lot of this goes back to the internet because particularly"},{"startTime":3274.61,"endTime":3274.982,"body":"if, like, say Elon Musk, you, you built, you, you destroy or, or remove safeguards"},{"startTime":3274.982,"endTime":3275.353,"body":"such as they are that have been put on, uh, language used and opinions and"},{"startTime":3275.353,"endTime":3286.485,"body":"so on."},{"startTime":3286.945,"endTime":3290.325,"body":"Um, you know, before the arrival of the internet, which remember it's incredibly new."},{"startTime":3290.525,"endTime":3295.4,"body":"I mean, we're talking about maybe the last 20 years, if that 15 to 20"},{"startTime":3295.4,"endTime":3295.725,"body":"years."},{"startTime":3296.385,"endTime":3302.928,"body":"Um, the, uh, then you had gatekeepers of opinion expression and reporting and, and so"},{"startTime":3302.928,"endTime":3303.365,"body":"on."},{"startTime":3303.785,"endTime":3309.605,"body":"You had magazine editors, newspaper editors, TV and radio editors."},{"startTime":3310.065,"endTime":3317.94,"body":"Uh, you, uh, there's a lot of restrictions, structural restrictions on how wacky ideas, for"},{"startTime":3317.94,"endTime":3320.565,"body":"example, could be passed around."},{"startTime":3321.385,"endTime":3326.045,"body":"Uh, but the internet has allowed, uh, sort of bypasses all of that."},{"startTime":3326.505,"endTime":3335.994,"body":"So there's an enormous explosion of unsubstantiated, uh, and, and unprovable, um, uh, uh, expressions"},{"startTime":3335.994,"endTime":3338.525,"body":"of opinion and theories."},{"startTime":3339.025,"endTime":3344.793,"body":"Um, you and the internet, of course, uh, it's not a, not like a magazine"},{"startTime":3344.793,"endTime":3347.485,"body":"which has 5,000 word articles in it."},{"startTime":3347.485,"endTime":3352.768,"body":"You've got 280 characters, and that means that, or is it words Anyway, it's a"},{"startTime":3352.768,"endTime":3353.121,"body":"very restricted number, and that, that means that all you can do is express your"},{"startTime":3353.121,"endTime":3358.405,"body":"opinion."},{"startTime":3358.505,"endTime":3363.108,"body":"You can't have a rational argument on the internet at all, except by providing links"},{"startTime":3363.108,"endTime":3367.405,"body":"and references to serious long, uh, long pieces of journalism or, or academic writing."},{"startTime":3368.225,"endTime":3370.965,"body":"Uh, so whoever shouts loudest is, is heard."},{"startTime":3371.545,"endTime":3374.325,"body":"And I think that's the kind of degradation of public discourse."},{"startTime":3374.865,"endTime":3375.765,"body":"And you mentioned that in your"},{"startTime":3375.965,"endTime":3376.125,"body":"Ity."},{"startTime":3376.125,"endTime":3376.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3376.405,"endTime":3378.085,"body":"Which is seriously worrying, you know?"},{"startTime":3379.025,"endTime":3383.42,"body":"So in that case, just to finish this off then, and hopefully maybe drift to"},{"startTime":3383.42,"endTime":3384.885,"body":"a more, more positive note."},{"startTime":3385.145,"endTime":3389.974,"body":"So what kind of things might we be thinking about now to sort of, you"},{"startTime":3389.974,"endTime":3390.296,"body":"know, in terms of education or reshifting the public sort of conversations so that whilst"},{"startTime":3390.296,"endTime":3390.618,"body":"we can, we can still talk about difficult things, we can still have differences of"},{"startTime":3390.618,"endTime":3390.94,"body":"opinions, we can still ask maybe, um, awkward questions, but it doesn't have to resort"},{"startTime":3390.94,"endTime":3408.325,"body":"into these small echo chambers or pithy, you know, 140 character opinions."},{"startTime":3408.325,"endTime":3408.605,"body":"What"},{"startTime":3408.665,"endTime":3408.965,"body":"Can we do?"},{"startTime":3408.965,"endTime":3413.408,"body":"Well, the echo chamber is, of course, that's an idea as well, because the algorithms"},{"startTime":3413.408,"endTime":3413.705,"body":"of, of, um, on the internet steer you towards people that have the same views"},{"startTime":3413.705,"endTime":3418.445,"body":"as you."},{"startTime":3418.985,"endTime":3423.205,"body":"Uh, and so rational argument becomes much more, much more difficult."},{"startTime":3423.405,"endTime":3425.045,"body":"I think, what can we do?"},{"startTime":3425.545,"endTime":3429.245,"body":"Uh, we can have, uh, sorry, say more regulation."},{"startTime":3429.445,"endTime":3435.154,"body":"I think Elon Musk is causing a great deal of harm with his, uh, absolutist"},{"startTime":3435.154,"endTime":3435.535,"body":"free speech idea, allowing people like Trump to spread his lies across the internet, for"},{"startTime":3435.535,"endTime":3441.245,"body":"example."},{"startTime":3441.905,"endTime":3448.083,"body":"Um, I think you can, uh, the other thing is you just have to get,"},{"startTime":3448.083,"endTime":3448.495,"body":"uh, get down to it and, uh, circulate, as it were, factual rational rebuttals of"},{"startTime":3448.495,"endTime":3455.085,"body":"conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":3455.905,"endTime":3457.845,"body":"Uh, I took part a few years ago."},{"startTime":3457.945,"endTime":3463.99,"body":"It was actually in 2019, uh, on, um, the anniversary of the 1969 Moon landings"},{"startTime":3463.99,"endTime":3464.393,"body":"at the science museum, at which, uh, the scientists, I mean, I talked about conspiracy"},{"startTime":3464.393,"endTime":3464.796,"body":"theories, but the scientists talked about, uh, the kind of fake news that they were"},{"startTime":3464.796,"endTime":3476.485,"body":"spreading."},{"startTime":3477.025,"endTime":3482.411,"body":"So, for example, the idea that the moon landings in 1969 took place in a"},{"startTime":3482.411,"endTime":3484.925,"body":"Hollywood studio is wrong on two counts."},{"startTime":3485.265,"endTime":3491.443,"body":"One, the, uh, photographic video recording technology did not exist, uh, by which you could"},{"startTime":3491.443,"endTime":3491.855,"body":"put the stuff on two two, of course, the technology to land on the moon"},{"startTime":3491.855,"endTime":3498.445,"body":"did exist."},{"startTime":3499.185,"endTime":3503.963,"body":"So, uh, and you know, you can show this in some detail, so just like"},{"startTime":3503.963,"endTime":3504.282,"body":"I can, you know, it's a bit boring, but insist on the, on the truth"},{"startTime":3504.282,"endTime":3512.565,"body":"or on rational argument and hope you'll get some traction that way."},{"startTime":3513.205,"endTime":3514.285,"body":"I think that's perfect ending."},{"startTime":3514.345,"endTime":3517.965,"body":"Insist on the truth and insist on rational argument and come to Aggression lecture."},{"startTime":3518.565,"endTime":3518.805,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3518.945,"endTime":3519.445,"body":"Yes, of"},{"startTime":3519.445,"endTime":3519.605,"body":"Course."},{"startTime":3519.915,"endTime":3522.485,"body":"Professor Sir Richard Evans, thank you very much."},{"startTime":3522.615,"endTime":3522.965,"body":"Thank."}]}