{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.965,"endTime":6.125,"body":"I am gonna start with a spoiler."},{"startTime":6.185,"endTime":7.285,"body":"Uh, no, it can't."},{"startTime":7.825,"endTime":10.805,"body":"Um, but, um, it's, it's not time to go home yet."},{"startTime":11.235,"endTime":15.923,"body":"What I want to do with this is, is, is not really do a deep"},{"startTime":15.923,"endTime":16.236,"body":"dive into AI or, or look particularly at the online safety bill or anything like"},{"startTime":16.236,"endTime":20.925,"body":"that."},{"startTime":21.045,"endTime":26.078,"body":"I really wanna talk about AI literacy and, um, any techs here, anyone from the"},{"startTime":26.078,"endTime":27.085,"body":"tech sector here."},{"startTime":27.665,"endTime":30.565,"body":"So you've probably had the, but surely it can do that."},{"startTime":31.425,"endTime":35.302,"body":"And, um, you know, those sorts of, but, but we've promised the client now, so"},{"startTime":35.302,"endTime":38.405,"body":"just get on and do it, you know, those sorts of things."},{"startTime":38.665,"endTime":43.855,"body":"Um, uh, yeah, uh, and I think I'm, I'm gonna particularly dwell on, on political"},{"startTime":43.855,"endTime":44.201,"body":"rhetoric around this issue because when I wrote this lecture, the online safety bill hadn't"},{"startTime":44.201,"endTime":50.085,"body":"reached Royal Ascent."},{"startTime":50.085,"endTime":51.365,"body":"Now it has reached Royal Ascent."},{"startTime":51.785,"endTime":56.781,"body":"Um, and I'll talk a little bit about some of the challenging language around that"},{"startTime":56.781,"endTime":57.115,"body":"and, and almost like the belief that, well, I've, I've seen what AI can do"},{"startTime":57.115,"endTime":64.444,"body":"now I've, I've used chat Bt it's amazing."},{"startTime":65.065,"endTime":66.285,"body":"So why can't it do that?"},{"startTime":66.985,"endTime":69.805,"body":"And, um, just some, just some issues around there really."},{"startTime":70.345,"endTime":72.645,"body":"Um, there's my email address."},{"startTime":72.985,"endTime":77.063,"body":"Uh, if folk do wanna contact me after this, you are very welcome to, I"},{"startTime":77.063,"endTime":77.335,"body":"generally sit in my office in Cornwall writing and I'm always online, so I'm always"},{"startTime":77.335,"endTime":83.045,"body":"very happy to, to hear from folk."},{"startTime":83.585,"endTime":88.445,"body":"Um, occasionally I get someone going, three years ago I saw a talk of yours."},{"startTime":88.445,"endTime":91.285,"body":"Can I just ask about this thing that's happening at my kids' school?"},{"startTime":91.785,"endTime":92.725,"body":"That's fine as well."},{"startTime":93.015,"endTime":94.325,"body":"Don't mind doing that as well."},{"startTime":94.865,"endTime":98.685,"body":"Um, I'm not gonna do a deep dive into, into machine learning."},{"startTime":99.305,"endTime":104.222,"body":"Uh, I'm gonna look very briefly about the broad functioning of it and, and why"},{"startTime":104.222,"endTime":108.485,"body":"it works in certain areas and why it doesn't work in other areas."},{"startTime":109.025,"endTime":113.752,"body":"But as I said, I'm going to spend a lot of the time looking at"},{"startTime":113.752,"endTime":114.067,"body":"specific use cases and looking at the challenges of those and looking at how we've"},{"startTime":114.067,"endTime":120.685,"body":"got to this position at the moment."},{"startTime":121.085,"endTime":125.485,"body":"'cause we are, you know, undoubtedly in a very exciting time for artificial intelligence."},{"startTime":126.105,"endTime":131.092,"body":"Um, and I think probably because it is so visible now and because we can"},{"startTime":131.092,"endTime":131.425,"body":"get hold of it and see what you can do with it, it is something"},{"startTime":131.425,"endTime":139.405,"body":"where people are very, very excited and we should be."},{"startTime":139.985,"endTime":143.568,"body":"But equally, there are parameters we need to think about and use cases we need"},{"startTime":143.568,"endTime":144.285,"body":"to think about."},{"startTime":144.285,"endTime":147.807,"body":"And if we understand a little bit about how it works, we are probably in"},{"startTime":147.807,"endTime":148.042,"body":"a better position to be able to, to, to look at the, the demands and"},{"startTime":148.042,"endTime":151.565,"body":"things."},{"startTime":151.565,"endTime":157.136,"body":"Because I think one of the things I find, particularly with the online safety bill,"},{"startTime":157.136,"endTime":161.965,"body":"which as I said reached ascent this week, is it's become, don't worry."},{"startTime":162.225,"endTime":166.031,"body":"Yes, there are issues about children online, don't worry, the online safety bill's gonna sort"},{"startTime":166.031,"endTime":166.285,"body":"it."},{"startTime":166.825,"endTime":171.912,"body":"Um, I dunno if you saw, but in the press a few weeks ago, there"},{"startTime":171.912,"endTime":172.251,"body":"was another report about sexual harassment, sexual violence in schools, and there was discussion there"},{"startTime":172.251,"endTime":172.59,"body":"about young men accessing pornography and, and getting unrealistic expectations around, uh, sex and relationships"},{"startTime":172.59,"endTime":182.765,"body":"and things."},{"startTime":183.465,"endTime":187.765,"body":"And, um, the response to that from government was, don't worry."},{"startTime":187.765,"endTime":189.965,"body":"The online safety bill's going to sort all that sort of thing out."},{"startTime":189.965,"endTime":193.459,"body":"We'll stop young people looking at pornography and then we don't have to worry about"},{"startTime":193.459,"endTime":193.925,"body":"that anymore."},{"startTime":194.345,"endTime":199.561,"body":"And I find that quite challenging because I think from, from my perspective, I've spent"},{"startTime":199.561,"endTime":199.908,"body":"the last 20 years talking to young people about how the online world affects their"},{"startTime":199.908,"endTime":205.125,"body":"lives."},{"startTime":205.185,"endTime":208.47,"body":"And I'll, when I, when I bring this talk to a close, I'll talk a"},{"startTime":208.47,"endTime":209.565,"body":"little bit more about that."},{"startTime":210.385,"endTime":215.907,"body":"But, um, the, the idea of platform liability, which is pretty much what the online"},{"startTime":215.907,"endTime":216.276,"body":"safety bill does, you know, it's like the platforms need to sort this out now,"},{"startTime":216.276,"endTime":216.644,"body":"um, is one thread, but it's certainly not a lot of what young people tell"},{"startTime":216.644,"endTime":217.012,"body":"me about how, if you say, how can we help you have a better online"},{"startTime":217.012,"endTime":232.845,"body":"experience?"},{"startTime":232.955,"endTime":235.525,"body":"It's very rare they talk about technical intervention."},{"startTime":235.705,"endTime":237.845,"body":"But I'll come back to that in a little while."},{"startTime":237.965,"endTime":242.889,"body":"A little bit more about me though, um, somewhat unusually, I think it's probably fair"},{"startTime":242.889,"endTime":247.485,"body":"to say in, in this area, uh, I'm an academic with a tech background."},{"startTime":247.945,"endTime":252.645,"body":"Um, probably before some of you were born, I was writing genetic algorithm code for"},{"startTime":252.645,"endTime":254.525,"body":"engineering optimization problems in the nineties."},{"startTime":255.265,"endTime":260.321,"body":"Um, in those days, we had to write our own, we had to write it"},{"startTime":260.321,"endTime":260.658,"body":"from the ground up, which sometimes means I'm a little bit more sympathetic to the"},{"startTime":260.658,"endTime":269.085,"body":"demands that are placed on the tech sector than some maybe."},{"startTime":269.665,"endTime":273.802,"body":"Um, not that I don't think the tech sector has some serious responsibilities here, but"},{"startTime":273.802,"endTime":276.285,"body":"equally they haven't got the solution on their own."},{"startTime":277.705,"endTime":281.995,"body":"Um, I've already said I've spent a lot of time talking to, to young people."},{"startTime":282.115,"endTime":287.755,"body":"I think the other thing that's important in this situation is I will flag up"},{"startTime":287.755,"endTime":288.131,"body":"the fact I am a parent, um, from government ministers to high court judges, to,"},{"startTime":288.131,"endTime":295.275,"body":"um, people I'm socializing with."},{"startTime":296.025,"endTime":298.635,"body":"They'll hear, what's it you do you cover stuff about online homes?"},{"startTime":299.185,"endTime":303.861,"body":"Well, my son, and then you get this discussion about, and, um, everyone takes, not"},{"startTime":303.861,"endTime":307.915,"body":"everyone, lots of people will take a parental perspective, as you might imagine."},{"startTime":308.055,"endTime":314.126,"body":"My kids who are nearly 20 and 21 now had an interesting teenage years with,"},{"startTime":314.126,"endTime":314.53,"body":"with me as a father, \u003claugh\u003e, um, uh, probably sometimes asking questions that were maybe"},{"startTime":314.53,"endTime":323.435,"body":"they weren't wishing that, um, I was asking."},{"startTime":323.495,"endTime":327.875,"body":"But equally, um, we always had some very frank conversations."},{"startTime":327.875,"endTime":331.577,"body":"It's generally when one of a group of their friends were up, they'd be asking"},{"startTime":331.577,"endTime":331.824,"body":"all the questions that they couldn't ask at school, or they couldn't ask, um, other"},{"startTime":331.824,"endTime":337.995,"body":"people because they were just told, just don't look at it."},{"startTime":338.055,"endTime":338.315,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":338.575,"endTime":340.235,"body":"So, so it's been an interesting time."},{"startTime":340.295,"endTime":341.675,"body":"I'm also a fellow of the BCS."},{"startTime":341.855,"endTime":348.855,"body":"Um, for those of you that are involved with the BCS, um, I'm gonna start."},{"startTime":348.995,"endTime":354.158,"body":"We, we sometimes, if you'd look at this historically, AI has been around for quite"},{"startTime":354.158,"endTime":355.535,"body":"a long time now."},{"startTime":355.805,"endTime":360.565,"body":"Fifties sixties was where the, the first AI summer came from."},{"startTime":361.305,"endTime":363.805,"body":"We talk about AI summers, AI winters."},{"startTime":364.475,"endTime":367.285,"body":"Some folks say we're still in the, the biggest AI summer."},{"startTime":367.345,"endTime":371.833,"body":"Now some folks say we're in the AI autumn, but the third one, if we"},{"startTime":371.833,"endTime":372.132,"body":"look back historically, there was a, um, another really big AI boom in the eighties,"},{"startTime":372.132,"endTime":372.432,"body":"uh, late eighties, early nineties, if any of you remember that time, expert systems were"},{"startTime":372.432,"endTime":383.205,"body":"gonna replace gps, all those sorts of things."},{"startTime":383.265,"endTime":386.915,"body":"And, and similar sorts of discussions around is it gonna replace jobs and all those"},{"startTime":386.915,"endTime":387.645,"body":"sorts of things."},{"startTime":388.505,"endTime":388.725,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":392.905,"endTime":396.151,"body":"I had lunch, I dunno if any of you ever heard of him, but there's"},{"startTime":396.151,"endTime":396.367,"body":"a, my old academic mentor, professor Frank Land, who was at the LSE for 50"},{"startTime":396.367,"endTime":401.345,"body":"years, I had lunch with him the other day."},{"startTime":401.345,"endTime":402.225,"body":"He's 96 now."},{"startTime":403.645,"endTime":406.15,"body":"And I said to him, what do you think about all this AI that's going"},{"startTime":406.15,"endTime":406.985,"body":"on at the moment, Frank?"},{"startTime":407.005,"endTime":409.465,"body":"And he went, I've seen all before \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":409.625,"endTime":410.345,"body":"I went, really?"},{"startTime":410.535,"endTime":412.025,"body":"He's like, well, no, it is different now."},{"startTime":412.025,"endTime":415.105,"body":"We have far greater data processing power than we used to."},{"startTime":415.105,"endTime":416.985,"body":"We have far greater processing power than we used to."},{"startTime":417.625,"endTime":420.437,"body":"I think he was a little bit sore because chat GPT had said he was"},{"startTime":420.437,"endTime":420.625,"body":"dead."},{"startTime":420.685,"endTime":422.625,"body":"So I think he was a bit annoyed about that."},{"startTime":423.005,"endTime":426.613,"body":"But you know, he, he was sort of saying, you know, having an understanding of"},{"startTime":426.613,"endTime":426.854,"body":"how it works gives you a, um, a more richer experience with it, is kind"},{"startTime":426.854,"endTime":431.425,"body":"of what he was saying."},{"startTime":431.425,"endTime":435.167,"body":"But yeah, he was also saying, you know, we never seem to learn from history"},{"startTime":435.167,"endTime":436.665,"body":"when it comes to computer science."},{"startTime":436.785,"endTime":441.232,"body":"A lot of these things have happened before, um, in, in different, different, different means"},{"startTime":441.232,"endTime":441.825,"body":"and things."},{"startTime":441.845,"endTime":447.09,"body":"But, but as I said, I think probably one of the most visible things around"},{"startTime":447.09,"endTime":447.44,"body":"AI at the moment is it's so available to us all because you can just"},{"startTime":447.44,"endTime":447.789,"body":"sign up and go on to chat GPT and you know, every university in the"},{"startTime":447.789,"endTime":448.139,"body":"country is absolutely terrified about, wow, we're gonna have to do something other than set"},{"startTime":448.139,"endTime":464.225,"body":"essays now, aren't we?"},{"startTime":464.225,"endTime":469.305,"body":"Because, um, although interestingly, I I, I did a visit to Kings a while ago,"},{"startTime":469.305,"endTime":474.385,"body":"um, to the computer science department there, and Kings do some very good AI research."},{"startTime":475.185,"endTime":476.585,"body":"I said, what are you doing about GPT?"},{"startTime":476.585,"endTime":478.865,"body":"And they said, well, I was talking to the students about it."},{"startTime":478.865,"endTime":481.425,"body":"They said, well, we got it to generate some code."},{"startTime":481.605,"endTime":484.545,"body":"The professor said to get it to generate some code based on a, a problem."},{"startTime":484.765,"endTime":487.654,"body":"And then we unpicked it, and then we started to look at where the bugs"},{"startTime":487.654,"endTime":488.425,"body":"were in the code."},{"startTime":488.925,"endTime":492.873,"body":"And then we went on and we started to try and understand how it worked"},{"startTime":492.873,"endTime":495.505,"body":"in order to create those bugs in the first place."},{"startTime":496.255,"endTime":500.385,"body":"That sounds like a really progressive view of embracing these technologies."},{"startTime":501.455,"endTime":505.061,"body":"Some of the universities just sent out a a memo towards students going, if you"},{"startTime":505.061,"endTime":506.745,"body":"use chat GPT, you will be failed."},{"startTime":507.655,"endTime":511.105,"body":"It's like, well, how do you know, first of all?"},{"startTime":511.685,"endTime":517.184,"body":"And secondly, really, you know, again from history, we looked 20 years ago, the search"},{"startTime":517.184,"endTime":521.585,"body":"engine, you can't use search engines to write lecture, to write essays."},{"startTime":522.485,"endTime":525.727,"body":"And now can you imagine a time where you wouldn't be using a search engine"},{"startTime":525.727,"endTime":527.025,"body":"to do these sort of things?"},{"startTime":527.025,"endTime":528.585,"body":"It's, it's a bit like trying to fight the tide."},{"startTime":529.205,"endTime":529.825,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":529.885,"endTime":534.4,"body":"So, so we should be embracing them and, and, and looking at at, at these"},{"startTime":534.4,"endTime":535.605,"body":"positive aspects of it."},{"startTime":535.665,"endTime":540.485,"body":"But there are some things starting to creak at the moment."},{"startTime":540.635,"endTime":544.572,"body":"I'll, I'll look at a few examples of, of that sort of thing as I"},{"startTime":544.572,"endTime":545.885,"body":"go along the way now."},{"startTime":545.905,"endTime":549.925,"body":"But, but I think, I think this one first of all is the sheer amount"},{"startTime":549.925,"endTime":550.193,"body":"of data that's being processed and the, the processing power we've got is very different"},{"startTime":550.193,"endTime":555.285,"body":"to how it's been before."},{"startTime":556.025,"endTime":559.193,"body":"So I'll come back to talk a little bit about training data in a minute,"},{"startTime":559.193,"endTime":559.404,"body":"but the sheer volumes of training data you can use are, are, are better than"},{"startTime":559.404,"endTime":564.685,"body":"they were before and you can process it a lot faster."},{"startTime":565.385,"endTime":569.913,"body":"So it does look amazing because it's, it's writing this stuff in real time and,"},{"startTime":569.913,"endTime":570.215,"body":"you know, our go surfed on chat GPT, it was about 75% accurate about what"},{"startTime":570.215,"endTime":575.045,"body":"I did."},{"startTime":575.045,"endTime":579.193,"body":"And then although I've noticed, I don't know if anyone else has done it, but"},{"startTime":579.193,"endTime":579.47,"body":"more recently it's come up with this disclaimer at the end going, however, our data"},{"startTime":579.47,"endTime":584.725,"body":"was collected in September, 2021."},{"startTime":584.725,"endTime":589.138,"body":"So you might like to, to look up other sources because academic careers changed and"},{"startTime":589.138,"endTime":589.432,"body":"they might be somewhere else now, which is quite different to, um, I can't remember"},{"startTime":589.432,"endTime":597.965,"body":"what it, it placed me at an institution I've never worked at a while ago."},{"startTime":599.185,"endTime":601.165,"body":"But there's some fantastic things that have happened."},{"startTime":602.275,"endTime":607.685,"body":"Massive improvements generally in, in what I might refer to as narrow domain areas."},{"startTime":607.865,"endTime":615.294,"body":"So, so one of the examples in the, in the transcript alongside this is around"},{"startTime":615.294,"endTime":616.285,"body":"tumor diagnosis."},{"startTime":616.285,"endTime":621.725,"body":"There's amazing developments around tumor diagnosis now, it's a fairly closed system if you like."},{"startTime":622.425,"endTime":625.365,"body":"You can feed it tons and tons and tons of medical data."},{"startTime":625.785,"endTime":630.975,"body":"And it's getting extremely accurate at diagnosing when it's shown a new scan, whether it's"},{"startTime":630.975,"endTime":636.165,"body":"a tumor, whether it's, um, needs treatment or whether it's something not to worry about."},{"startTime":636.265,"endTime":640.205,"body":"Um, the, the US government are talking about that a great deal at the moment."},{"startTime":640.265,"endTime":646.171,"body":"If you look at something like gaming, AI has massive improvements in gaming any gamers"},{"startTime":646.171,"endTime":646.565,"body":"here."},{"startTime":648.035,"endTime":648.685,"body":"It's interesting."},{"startTime":648.685,"endTime":650.325,"body":"No one ever wants to admit they're a gamer."},{"startTime":650.885,"endTime":653.205,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e, it's all right to be a gamer, it's fine \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":653.545,"endTime":657.349,"body":"Um, but you know, the, the, the AI in games as as, as it's is"},{"startTime":657.349,"endTime":659.125,"body":"way better as it used to be."},{"startTime":659.305,"endTime":665.372,"body":"We have all the, all these visible content creation things now, um, although apparently in"},{"startTime":665.372,"endTime":665.777,"body":"Vick's lecture on Tuesday, some examples of AI generated, um, images did produce some interesting"},{"startTime":665.777,"endTime":671.845,"body":"response."},{"startTime":671.915,"endTime":675.182,"body":"It's normally the fingers dunno if any of you have done some of the, it's"},{"startTime":675.182,"endTime":675.4,"body":"normally can't quite get, you know, you end up with 15 fingers on each hand"},{"startTime":675.4,"endTime":678.885,"body":"and things."},{"startTime":679.905,"endTime":682.365,"body":"But there's, it's, it's really impressive stuff."},{"startTime":682.705,"endTime":686.605,"body":"And the fact you can do that on your phone is, is is equally impressive"},{"startTime":686.605,"endTime":687.125,"body":"as well."},{"startTime":688.185,"endTime":692.401,"body":"But it starts to become more complex, first of all if you've got a limited"},{"startTime":692.401,"endTime":693.245,"body":"amount of data."},{"startTime":694.025,"endTime":699.086,"body":"But also when you are in messy complex systems with maybe lots of human intervention"},{"startTime":699.086,"endTime":699.423,"body":"and similar, which you might look at, for example, social media as an example of"},{"startTime":699.423,"endTime":704.485,"body":"that."},{"startTime":704.665,"endTime":707.165,"body":"And I'll come on to come onto that in a little while."},{"startTime":707.825,"endTime":711.365,"body":"Um, still there are some challenges around creativity."},{"startTime":712.025,"endTime":717.725,"body":"Um, it, it's, it's, you know, there, there have been people say, well the easiest"},{"startTime":717.725,"endTime":718.105,"body":"way to get automated vehicles on the roads is to stop humans driving cars because,"},{"startTime":718.105,"endTime":728.365,"body":"you know, it's fine if the entire system can work on its own."},{"startTime":728.365,"endTime":733.47,"body":"You know, you, you see some great, um, progress in automated vehicles and things at"},{"startTime":733.47,"endTime":733.81,"body":"the moment, but I live in North Cornwall fairly remote, send an automated vehicle up"},{"startTime":733.81,"endTime":734.151,"body":"my lane when a sheep's jumping out or there's a fire up in the hedges"},{"startTime":734.151,"endTime":747.085,"body":"and it's, you know, it starts to become more problematic."},{"startTime":747.145,"endTime":751.725,"body":"But, um, so it's always the edge cases that, that, that cause the problems there."},{"startTime":751.785,"endTime":756.069,"body":"But, but, but yeah, clearly there are, there is a, an awful lot of great"},{"startTime":756.069,"endTime":758.925,"body":"stuff to, to look at within the AR world now."},{"startTime":759.545,"endTime":764.24,"body":"But one of the challenges with that is you get, but you've done that, so"},{"startTime":764.24,"endTime":765.805,"body":"why can't you do that?"},{"startTime":766.985,"endTime":772.108,"body":"And I think that's kind of where we are in the, in the, well I"},{"startTime":772.108,"endTime":772.45,"body":"might broadly say the online harms world is, um, one of the other things I"},{"startTime":772.45,"endTime":779.965,"body":"do occasionally is sort of mediate between organizations."},{"startTime":781.105,"endTime":783.962,"body":"And I was contacted a while ago by, by a charity I do quite a"},{"startTime":783.962,"endTime":784.725,"body":"lot of work with."},{"startTime":784.985,"endTime":791.93,"body":"And they said, oh, we're, um, we we're commissioning, uh, a development company to provide,"},{"startTime":791.93,"endTime":794.245,"body":"uh, a new online facility."},{"startTime":794.865,"endTime":800.485,"body":"Now they run a helpline that supports victims of, of fairly serious online abuse."},{"startTime":801.145,"endTime":804.845,"body":"Um, and I said, okay, that's, that's interesting."},{"startTime":805.285,"endTime":809.611,"body":"'cause they run the line between nine to five and they're saying, you know, because"},{"startTime":809.611,"endTime":809.899,"body":"of the domestic nature, a lot of this abuse, we need to support victims outside"},{"startTime":809.899,"endTime":816.245,"body":"of the nine to five time as well."},{"startTime":816.855,"endTime":820.768,"body":"We've had this company come to us, they say they've got a solution where we"},{"startTime":820.768,"endTime":821.029,"body":"can implement some sort of a chat bot and it's all right 'cause they're using"},{"startTime":821.029,"endTime":825.725,"body":"ai, it's very exciting."},{"startTime":827.325,"endTime":830.285,"body":"I said, but but what are they doing with the ai then?"},{"startTime":830.385,"endTime":833.963,"body":"He said, no, they, they said that they've got a lot of experience in building"},{"startTime":833.963,"endTime":834.202,"body":"these AI systems and they, they need to get our case data and they're gonna"},{"startTime":834.202,"endTime":840.405,"body":"train it with our case data and then it's gonna support victims."},{"startTime":840.765,"endTime":845.234,"body":"I said, well, it seems like quite a leap because every single one of the"},{"startTime":845.234,"endTime":845.532,"body":"cases you deal with, 'cause I know about the cases you deal with are unique,"},{"startTime":845.532,"endTime":845.83,"body":"is it's, it's very unusual that you will see one person's experience be the same"},{"startTime":845.83,"endTime":855.365,"body":"as another person's experience."},{"startTime":856.465,"endTime":861.37,"body":"So if you're starting to feed it where every single case unique, how is it"},{"startTime":861.37,"endTime":863.005,"body":"going to generalize from that?"},{"startTime":864.145,"endTime":867.162,"body":"And they sort of accused me of being a cynic and, and all those sorts"},{"startTime":867.162,"endTime":867.565,"body":"of things."},{"startTime":867.625,"endTime":872.005,"body":"And, um, I'm just the, the old guy that goes, I've seen it all before."},{"startTime":872.425,"endTime":876.005,"body":"Um, but um, then about six months later say, how's it going?"},{"startTime":876.005,"endTime":878.605,"body":"It's like, well, they haven't delivered everything we expected."},{"startTime":879.435,"endTime":882.125,"body":"It's like, oh, okay, why would that be then?"},{"startTime":882.125,"endTime":885.405,"body":"Well, they said the data's quite difficult because every case is unique."},{"startTime":885.505,"endTime":889.125,"body":"I'm like, I should have recorded myself saying it at the time."},{"startTime":889.265,"endTime":890.725,"body":"No, it wasn't anybody's fault."},{"startTime":890.885,"endTime":895.21,"body":"I, I think, you know, on the one hand the developers were saying, we've got"},{"startTime":895.21,"endTime":897.805,"body":"lots of experience of providing chatbot solutions to things."},{"startTime":898.825,"endTime":900.885,"body":"And the procurers had gone, this is great."},{"startTime":901.065,"endTime":907.015,"body":"And they hadn't really explored the sorts of data because they were bringing it from"},{"startTime":907.015,"endTime":912.965,"body":"their perspective and the, the charity weren't sufficiently articulating the requirements of what they wanted."},{"startTime":914.065,"endTime":917.762,"body":"And I think that's always, I can remember years ago doing a bit of mediation"},{"startTime":917.762,"endTime":918.009,"body":"between a a, a charity and a tech company said they, they were supposed to"},{"startTime":918.009,"endTime":923.925,"body":"build us a website, they haven't done what we wanted."},{"startTime":924.005,"endTime":925.565,"body":"I said, well, what is your requirement spec then?"},{"startTime":925.565,"endTime":927.605,"body":"And they went, the what \u003claugh\u003e?"},{"startTime":928.035,"endTime":932.337,"body":"It's like, well, how can you possibly know what you wanted or how do they"},{"startTime":932.337,"endTime":935.205,"body":"know what you want without some sort of formal documentation?"},{"startTime":936.065,"endTime":937.365,"body":"And they went, well, we just told them."},{"startTime":937.585,"endTime":938.365,"body":"So, so yeah."},{"startTime":938.365,"endTime":943.45,"body":"Anyway, um, and I think, you know, one of the things that it's just saying,"},{"startTime":943.45,"endTime":945.485,"body":"it's okay, we are using ai."},{"startTime":947.075,"endTime":951.464,"body":"It's a bit like saying it's okay, we're using maths or something \u003claugh\u003e, you know,"},{"startTime":951.464,"endTime":953.805,"body":"it, it of itself, it's not the solution."},{"startTime":953.835,"endTime":958.162,"body":"It's how you apply these solutions now, now to the tech in the room, I"},{"startTime":958.162,"endTime":958.451,"body":"now apologize because this is as detailed as I'm going to get around AI or"},{"startTime":958.451,"endTime":963.645,"body":"more specifically machine learning."},{"startTime":963.645,"endTime":968.016,"body":"Most of the, most of the techniques that are being used at the moment focus"},{"startTime":968.016,"endTime":969.765,"body":"very much on, on machine learning."},{"startTime":969.765,"endTime":973.085,"body":"And this is a very basic model, a very basic model."},{"startTime":973.245,"endTime":976.445,"body":"'cause I don't want to go in, I've, you know, I've used 20 minutes already."},{"startTime":976.485,"endTime":978.905,"body":"I don't want us to talk about supervised learning and unsupervised learning and all sorts"},{"startTime":978.905,"endTime":981.325,"body":"of different sorts of learning and feed forward networks and all those sorts of things."},{"startTime":981.865,"endTime":990.305,"body":"Um, you take an algorithm, algorithm, I'll come onto to algorithms in a minute."},{"startTime":990.805,"endTime":996.786,"body":"Um, you, you take it, you feed it data, the more data you feed it"},{"startTime":996.786,"endTime":1000.375,"body":"because of how extremely well put together they are."},{"startTime":1000.395,"endTime":1005.63,"body":"Now, I can remember when I was doing my PhD, a friend of mine building"},{"startTime":1005.63,"endTime":1007.375,"body":"a neural network from scratch."},{"startTime":1008.115,"endTime":1012.575,"body":"Now he earns a huge amount of money working in financial systems play \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":1013.125,"endTime":1014.375,"body":"It's always financial systems."},{"startTime":1015.275,"endTime":1021.716,"body":"Um, but, but you, the more you feed it, because it's learning by learning, it's"},{"startTime":1021.716,"endTime":1022.575,"body":"recognizing data."},{"startTime":1022.635,"endTime":1025.535,"body":"So if you then start to show its similar data, it starts to recognize it."},{"startTime":1026.035,"endTime":1030.128,"body":"Um, and then you look at the model and see what it's producing and then"},{"startTime":1030.128,"endTime":1030.4,"body":"you see what the outputs are and whether it's being accurate and whether it's being"},{"startTime":1030.4,"endTime":1034.493,"body":"inaccurate."},{"startTime":1034.795,"endTime":1035.775,"body":"And then you improve it."},{"startTime":1035.775,"endTime":1041.142,"body":"There is an apocryphal tale of image recognition, which some of you have you any"},{"startTime":1041.142,"endTime":1041.5,"body":"of you heard of the, the tank recognition system didn't actually happen, but it's a"},{"startTime":1041.5,"endTime":1049.015,"body":"really good way of explaining image recognition."},{"startTime":1050.315,"endTime":1056.948,"body":"So, uh, uh, a military system was developed to recognize tanks and the, the system"},{"startTime":1056.948,"endTime":1062.255,"body":"was trained with photographs of friendly tanks and photographs of enemy tanks."},{"startTime":1062.275,"endTime":1064.935,"body":"And it was trained with data and it was building up over time."},{"startTime":1065.555,"endTime":1068.335,"body":"And then it was shown a picture of a new tank."},{"startTime":1068.635,"endTime":1072.539,"body":"So not from the training data, but from the, and it was almost a hundred"},{"startTime":1072.539,"endTime":1072.8,"body":"percent accurate in determining whether that was an enemy tank or whether it was a"},{"startTime":1072.8,"endTime":1076.965,"body":"friendly tank."},{"startTime":1077.945,"endTime":1080.405,"body":"So this is fantastic, we need to get this on the battlefield."},{"startTime":1080.465,"endTime":1084.754,"body":"And then they deployed it in battlefield situation and it went down to about 50"},{"startTime":1084.754,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"50, again, almost, almost completely random in how accurate it was they went, but in"},{"startTime":1085.04,"endTime":1091.045,"body":"the lab it worked really, really well."},{"startTime":1091.145,"endTime":1091.885,"body":"Why isn't it working?"},{"startTime":1092.625,"endTime":1096.322,"body":"And they looked back at the trading data and it turned out that all the"},{"startTime":1096.322,"endTime":1096.568,"body":"friendly tanks were photographed on a sunny day and all the enemy tanks were photographed"},{"startTime":1096.568,"endTime":1101.005,"body":"on a cloudy day."},{"startTime":1101.005,"endTime":1104.086,"body":"So what the algorithm was actually doing was determining whether it was a sunny day"},{"startTime":1104.086,"endTime":1105.525,"body":"or whether it was a cloudy day."},{"startTime":1105.705,"endTime":1109.794,"body":"Now, as I said, that's an apocryphal tale, but it's a nice way of explaining"},{"startTime":1109.794,"endTime":1110.885,"body":"how image recognition works."},{"startTime":1110.945,"endTime":1114.593,"body":"And sometimes you go, well, we don't actually know what's going on in the middle"},{"startTime":1114.593,"endTime":1114.836,"body":"of that box, but we know the stuff that's coming out at the end of"},{"startTime":1114.836,"endTime":1118.485,"body":"it."},{"startTime":1118.485,"endTime":1119.165,"body":"It's really, really good."},{"startTime":1120.285,"endTime":1124.132,"body":"I think we're starting to understand what goes on in the middle more than we"},{"startTime":1124.132,"endTime":1124.645,"body":"once did."},{"startTime":1125.585,"endTime":1128.805,"body":"But also it's, it is just a nice way to, to illustrate that model."},{"startTime":1128.865,"endTime":1139.405,"body":"But, um, things do go wrong now, um, algorithms, they're bad, aren't they?"},{"startTime":1140.805,"endTime":1145.555,"body":"I did some training to a bunch of safeguarding professionals a while ago around young"},{"startTime":1145.555,"endTime":1145.871,"body":"people on lawn harms, and I always say to the organizer, is there anything specific"},{"startTime":1145.871,"endTime":1152.205,"body":"anyone wants me to look at?"},{"startTime":1152.545,"endTime":1156.595,"body":"And one of the requests that came back can, um, can he talk more about"},{"startTime":1156.595,"endTime":1157.405,"body":"the bad algorithms?"},{"startTime":1158.705,"endTime":1159.245,"body":"So sorry."},{"startTime":1159.275,"endTime":1161.165,"body":"It's like, well, algorithms are bad, aren't they?"},{"startTime":1162.865,"endTime":1164.405,"body":"No, they're not \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":1164.825,"endTime":1169.325,"body":"Um, there has been this thing now where there was, there was something on the"},{"startTime":1169.325,"endTime":1171.725,"body":"BBC this morning about TikTok and recommendation engines."},{"startTime":1171.765,"endTime":1179.411,"body":"I dunno if any of you saw it, where TikTok was supposedly recommending excitable videos"},{"startTime":1179.411,"endTime":1179.921,"body":"about that thunder \u003claugh\u003e, uh, where it was saying, one of the examples it gave"},{"startTime":1179.921,"endTime":1193.685,"body":"was TikTok promoted a lot of videos about the Nikola Bully, um, suicide."},{"startTime":1194.145,"endTime":1196.965,"body":"Um, and as a result of that, people were turning up at the village."},{"startTime":1197.545,"endTime":1201.805,"body":"Um, and it was because of the recommendation engines and, and because of TOS algorithm."},{"startTime":1203.065,"endTime":1206.571,"body":"And it was kind of interesting 'cause you kind of thinking, well, the mainstream media"},{"startTime":1206.571,"endTime":1209.845,"body":"were doing a huge amount of coverage of that story at the same time."},{"startTime":1209.985,"endTime":1213.75,"body":"So to, to try and isolate it and say, well, TikTok drove people to go"},{"startTime":1213.75,"endTime":1214.001,"body":"to that village was a bit of an odd one anyway, but it was just"},{"startTime":1214.001,"endTime":1214.252,"body":"the, you know, I think one, one of the tabloids had 15 articles in one"},{"startTime":1214.252,"endTime":1222.285,"body":"day about that case."},{"startTime":1222.665,"endTime":1225.645,"body":"So, and then everyone said, again, it's terrible what tos done."},{"startTime":1226.145,"endTime":1229.405,"body":"Now there are challenges with recommendation engines."},{"startTime":1229.485,"endTime":1234.316,"body":"I certainly wouldn't disagree with that, but it was, the language was, again, it's it's"},{"startTime":1234.316,"endTime":1235.605,"body":"the algorithm, that algorithm."},{"startTime":1235.785,"endTime":1242.971,"body":"So, and, um, one of the, the more famous ones in recent time was during"},{"startTime":1242.971,"endTime":1246.805,"body":"lockdown, um, obviously young people couldn't sit exams."},{"startTime":1246.805,"endTime":1252.516,"body":"So it was based on teacher assessment and that was sent off to, to the"},{"startTime":1252.516,"endTime":1257.085,"body":"DFE for processing and, um, to make sure it was all normalized."},{"startTime":1257.985,"endTime":1263.4,"body":"And when people started to unpick the results, which, so, so the, the college gave"},{"startTime":1263.4,"endTime":1264.845,"body":"data to the center."},{"startTime":1265.105,"endTime":1269.738,"body":"The center then said they were running it through a normalization process and then young"},{"startTime":1269.738,"endTime":1270.047,"body":"people got their grades and they started on pick and go, well, people in deprived"},{"startTime":1270.047,"endTime":1279.005,"body":"areas seems to be getting, generally speaking, lower grades than people in, in affluent areas."},{"startTime":1279.945,"endTime":1281.685,"body":"That's, that's a bit dodgy, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1283.805,"endTime":1286.765,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e, it's quite good being in this room with \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":1287.505,"endTime":1290.805,"body":"Um, uh, and then Boris Johnson came out because obviously there was a lot of"},{"startTime":1290.805,"endTime":1291.685,"body":"negative press around this."},{"startTime":1291.685,"endTime":1297.245,"body":"Boris Johnson came out, oh, it's because this mutant algorithm, mutant algorithm."},{"startTime":1297.245,"endTime":1298.525,"body":"That's interesting, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1299.065,"endTime":1303.805,"body":"Um, and there was another story, uh, a while ago as well."},{"startTime":1304.185,"endTime":1309.86,"body":"The, the links are in the, the handout that goes along with this where, um,"},{"startTime":1309.86,"endTime":1310.238,"body":"the UK passport photo checking service was rejecting photographs of people of color, um, and"},{"startTime":1310.238,"endTime":1317.805,"body":"not rejecting, um, white folks photographs."},{"startTime":1317.945,"endTime":1323.186,"body":"And again, these, sorry, racist algorithm them, an algorithm could only do what it's told"},{"startTime":1323.186,"endTime":1323.885,"body":"to do."},{"startTime":1324.165,"endTime":1327.293,"body":"I think it's fair to say, you know, it's not gonna go, oh, I know"},{"startTime":1327.293,"endTime":1330.005,"body":"I've been told to do this, but I've decided to do something different."},{"startTime":1330.345,"endTime":1335.057,"body":"Now in terms of the passport checking service, this is far more likely that that"},{"startTime":1335.057,"endTime":1335.372,"body":"was as a result of anyone read, um, weapons, weapons of Math Destruction by Kathy"},{"startTime":1335.372,"endTime":1340.085,"body":"O'Neill."},{"startTime":1340.125,"endTime":1341.205,"body":"She talks about this quite a lot."},{"startTime":1341.255,"endTime":1345.985,"body":"Again, it's in, it's in the handout, but, um, you can build a biased data"},{"startTime":1345.985,"endTime":1350.085,"body":"set and you can feed that biased data set in his training data."},{"startTime":1350.105,"endTime":1353.842,"body":"So it is far more likely that the training data for that system had far"},{"startTime":1353.842,"endTime":1356.085,"body":"more white people than people of color in it."},{"startTime":1356.545,"endTime":1361.442,"body":"So it was far more accurate at assessing the, the acceptability of the photograph from"},{"startTime":1361.442,"endTime":1361.769,"body":"a white person, from a person of color, but to say the algorithm was racist"},{"startTime":1361.769,"endTime":1369.605,"body":"gives it a sentience that it really simply doesn't have."},{"startTime":1370.185,"endTime":1375.032,"body":"Um, and I think that's one of the interesting things around a lot of the"},{"startTime":1375.032,"endTime":1376.325,"body":"discourse in this area."},{"startTime":1376.765,"endTime":1381.79,"body":"I think a former Secretary of State was very clear that people should stop using"},{"startTime":1381.79,"endTime":1382.125,"body":"algorithms because algorithms are bad, which is a really interesting concept, um, for those coders"},{"startTime":1382.125,"endTime":1387.485,"body":"amongst you."},{"startTime":1387.785,"endTime":1392.267,"body":"Um, so what I want to do now is just look at some use cases"},{"startTime":1392.267,"endTime":1392.566,"body":"and look at the challenges we have in saying, why can't you get AI or"},{"startTime":1392.566,"endTime":1398.245,"body":"machine learning to solve this?"},{"startTime":1399.145,"endTime":1402.285,"body":"I'm gonna take three snippets of political rhetoric."},{"startTime":1403.345,"endTime":1407.573,"body":"I'm not deliberately not naming the people, although one you can probably make a quick"},{"startTime":1407.573,"endTime":1407.855,"body":"inference from because it's not really about picking on somebody and going, oh, look at"},{"startTime":1407.855,"endTime":1412.365,"body":"this person."},{"startTime":1412.395,"endTime":1417.01,"body":"They said something that, it's more about looking at the nature of the political rhetoric"},{"startTime":1417.01,"endTime":1419.165,"body":"and seeing why that presents such challenges."},{"startTime":1419.225,"endTime":1423.795,"body":"So I'm gonna start off with, with this one from after the Euros, there was"},{"startTime":1423.795,"endTime":1428.365,"body":"a, a lot of racist abuse of, um, some of the England footballers on Twitter."},{"startTime":1428.905,"endTime":1432.125,"body":"And this was a challenge in prime minister's questions at the time."},{"startTime":1432.985,"endTime":1436.49,"body":"And, um, the person who was prime minister at the time, now we've had a"},{"startTime":1436.49,"endTime":1436.724,"body":"few recently, so you might not be able to guess from that, but, but it"},{"startTime":1436.724,"endTime":1441.165,"body":"was this, this statement here."},{"startTime":1442.545,"endTime":1448.359,"body":"Um, it's the bit at the bottom that I find particularly problematic in terms of"},{"startTime":1448.359,"endTime":1450.685,"body":"the re the rhetoric being used."},{"startTime":1451.385,"endTime":1453.605,"body":"We all know they have the technology to do it"},{"startTime":1455.825,"endTime":1461.125,"body":"So they could stamp out racism if they wanted to, is the implication there."},{"startTime":1462.305,"endTime":1465.405,"body":"And this then feeds into discourse around child protection as well."},{"startTime":1466.565,"endTime":1471.495,"body":"Children have used online, children see language and, um, discourse they don't like, while the"},{"startTime":1471.495,"endTime":1474.125,"body":"platforms just need to stop that from happening."},{"startTime":1475.085,"endTime":1479.399,"body":"Children see, children see content that we don't want 'em to see, while the platforms"},{"startTime":1479.399,"endTime":1481.125,"body":"need to stop that from happening."},{"startTime":1483.345,"endTime":1488.035,"body":"Now tech code is very good at symbolic matching."},{"startTime":1488.135,"endTime":1492.843,"body":"So if someone is using racist keywords, very easy to detect someone is not using"},{"startTime":1492.843,"endTime":1493.157,"body":"racist keywords and bearing in mind, I mean this was in the days when Twitter"},{"startTime":1493.157,"endTime":1499.435,"body":"still had a large safety team."},{"startTime":1499.435,"endTime":1501.635,"body":"This was the, the pre musk days and things."},{"startTime":1501.695,"endTime":1507.845,"body":"So, um, so there is, you know, if you reported a racist tweet, you would"},{"startTime":1507.845,"endTime":1508.255,"body":"get a report back saying, we've looked at that, we suspended the account similar, but"},{"startTime":1508.255,"endTime":1508.665,"body":"the idea that they can detect this and stop racism if they want to is"},{"startTime":1508.665,"endTime":1525.065,"body":"kind of problematic because it implies, well, you just solve this stuff."},{"startTime":1526.725,"endTime":1528.745,"body":"So has anyone ever had this on Facebook?"},{"startTime":1530.525,"endTime":1531.785,"body":"You've posted something up."},{"startTime":1533.285,"endTime":1534.305,"body":"Surely it's not just me."},{"startTime":1538.975,"endTime":1544.562,"body":"This, you, you post something up and this appears about five minutes, five minutes later,"},{"startTime":1544.562,"endTime":1546.425,"body":"normally about five minutes later."},{"startTime":1547.685,"endTime":1548.505,"body":"God, you feel awful."},{"startTime":1550.955,"endTime":1554.535,"body":"We, we think what you said, Mike, I I didn't mean anything nasty by it."},{"startTime":1554.555,"endTime":1556.815,"body":"Is there anyone I can phone up and apologized to you?"},{"startTime":1557.015,"endTime":1558.015,"body":"I feel terrible now."},{"startTime":1558.635,"endTime":1561.575,"body":"Now this is the nature."},{"startTime":1561.775,"endTime":1565.303,"body":"I think the language of this statement is particularly interesting if you look at it"},{"startTime":1565.303,"endTime":1567.655,"body":"from how you might train an algorithm to do this."},{"startTime":1569.045,"endTime":1571.895,"body":"It's similar to others we've removed for bullying and harassment."},{"startTime":1572.555,"endTime":1576.605,"body":"So clearly they built up a big corpus of abusive terms and there's an awful"},{"startTime":1576.605,"endTime":1579.575,"body":"lot of academic research that goes into the area as well."},{"startTime":1579.575,"endTime":1583.175,"body":"You, you build up a corpus of abusive terms and you try and get it"},{"startTime":1583.175,"endTime":1583.415,"body":"to detect whether a term is abusive and it works to a certain point, particularly"},{"startTime":1583.415,"endTime":1588.935,"body":"good if you're looking at a basic keyword matching."},{"startTime":1588.935,"endTime":1595.385,"body":"But if you're looking at, uh, tone and and nature of tone and things, the"},{"startTime":1595.385,"endTime":1599.255,"body":"sentiment, it's less good at detecting sarcasm or satire."},{"startTime":1599.655,"endTime":1603.199,"body":"I got a warning a while ago because I'd said something, someone was mocking me"},{"startTime":1603.199,"endTime":1603.435,"body":"for my rural life and I said, yeah, I just went out and threw a"},{"startTime":1603.435,"endTime":1607.925,"body":"copper kettle at a tourist."},{"startTime":1608.385,"endTime":1613.597,"body":"Um, clearly I hadn't done that, but I got a community standards warning \u003claugh\u003e, I"},{"startTime":1613.597,"endTime":1616.725,"body":"didn't really throw a copper kettle at anybody \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":1617.085,"endTime":1618.485,"body":"I don't even own a copper kettle."},{"startTime":1618.705,"endTime":1621.645,"body":"Um, but, but brought home for me."},{"startTime":1622.585,"endTime":1624.845,"body":"Um, does anyone know this place?"},{"startTime":1627.485,"endTime":1628.045,"body":"Plymouth?"},{"startTime":1628.125,"endTime":1628.685,"body":"Plymouth."},{"startTime":1628.685,"endTime":1629.445,"body":"What part of Plymouth"},{"startTime":1630.425,"endTime":1630.765,"body":"Is it?"},{"startTime":1630.765,"endTime":1631.885,"body":"The ho There you go."},{"startTime":1631.965,"endTime":1632.725,"body":"Plymouth Ho."},{"startTime":1634.845,"endTime":1637.765,"body":"I posted a comment about Plymouth Ho a couple of years ago."},{"startTime":1638.745,"endTime":1640.365,"body":"Got a community standards warning"},{"startTime":1643.085,"endTime":1643.165,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":1645.785,"endTime":1648.773,"body":"Now I do know a few folk at met and said, can you just tell"},{"startTime":1648.773,"endTime":1650.965,"body":"your engineers that Plymouth is a location, not a person, please."},{"startTime":1651.085,"endTime":1655.423,"body":"I wasn't being asked about it, but, but if we are saying you need to"},{"startTime":1655.423,"endTime":1655.712,"body":"do more and that's a standard piece of political rhetoric, do more, they will generally"},{"startTime":1655.712,"endTime":1656.001,"body":"err on the side of conservative because they don't want to be in a position"},{"startTime":1656.001,"endTime":1656.291,"body":"where you have the outrage in the papers and, and look at this, but, but"},{"startTime":1656.291,"endTime":1669.885,"body":"yeah, it doesn't happen anymore."},{"startTime":1669.985,"endTime":1674.315,"body":"So if you go home later from post art, I'd like to go to Plymouth"},{"startTime":1674.315,"endTime":1674.604,"body":"Ho it's been sorted, but it was just an interesting little vignette from, from my"},{"startTime":1674.604,"endTime":1681.245,"body":"perspective in that, ah, I know why that happened."},{"startTime":1682.585,"endTime":1686.965,"body":"Now this was from a recent debate on the online safety bill."},{"startTime":1687.905,"endTime":1697.898,"body":"Um, age verification is a challenge that has been going on for a very long"},{"startTime":1697.898,"endTime":1698.565,"body":"time."},{"startTime":1700.795,"endTime":1705.716,"body":"Most of the political driver around this is the challenge that young people are accessing"},{"startTime":1705.716,"endTime":1706.045,"body":"pornography."},{"startTime":1706.045,"endTime":1709.725,"body":"We don't want young people to access pornography, which I completely agree with."},{"startTime":1709.725,"endTime":1714.558,"body":"Having had conversations with teenagers who are clearly desensitized and had performance anxieties and sites"},{"startTime":1714.558,"endTime":1715.525,"body":"anxieties and similar."},{"startTime":1716.065,"endTime":1719.565,"body":"Um, and then the solution is, well, we'll just age gate it."},{"startTime":1720.575,"endTime":1725.1,"body":"We'll just make sure anyone who provides this sort of content, um, has to get"},{"startTime":1725.1,"endTime":1729.325,"body":"the user to prove they are 18 before that happens, before they're out two,"},{"startTime":1732.335,"endTime":1736.689,"body":"I think highly effective is the thing that I find if you are a platform"},{"startTime":1736.689,"endTime":1736.98,"body":"that's being told, we're going to regulate, you need to develop something that is highly"},{"startTime":1736.98,"endTime":1741.335,"body":"effective."},{"startTime":1741.335,"endTime":1742.175,"body":"What does that actually mean?"},{"startTime":1743.285,"endTime":1746.655,"body":"I'll come back to the term internet safety or online safety at the end."},{"startTime":1747.555,"endTime":1753.767,"body":"Um, have we all in this room and online, um, uniformly got a single way"},{"startTime":1753.767,"endTime":1757.495,"body":"to demonstrate we're all over the age of 18?"},{"startTime":1759.255,"endTime":1763.042,"body":"I would suggest not, and this is one of the challenges, age verification in the"},{"startTime":1763.042,"endTime":1763.295,"body":"uk."},{"startTime":1763.855,"endTime":1766.455,"body":"I have said before, there's an easy solution, we just need an ID card."},{"startTime":1766.815,"endTime":1770.615,"body":"I was being sarcastic because I think bringing in a universal ID card brings a"},{"startTime":1770.615,"endTime":1774.415,"body":"lot of its own challenges in terms of privacy and abuse of power and similar."},{"startTime":1775.635,"endTime":1782.17,"body":"But if you're saying we need to demonstrate through passport or we need to demonstrate"},{"startTime":1782.17,"endTime":1782.606,"body":"through driving license, well those are both token based age verification devices where, um, not"},{"startTime":1782.606,"endTime":1790.885,"body":"everyone has to have one."},{"startTime":1790.885,"endTime":1792.205,"body":"There's no mandatory reason."},{"startTime":1792.435,"endTime":1793.885,"body":"There's also a financial barrier."},{"startTime":1795.825,"endTime":1801.383,"body":"The challenge in this area, particularly if you're looking at pornography, this is legal content"},{"startTime":1801.383,"endTime":1802.125,"body":"for adults."},{"startTime":1803.425,"endTime":1808.712,"body":"So if you're saying we need to stop young people seeing it, but adults are"},{"startTime":1808.712,"endTime":1809.065,"body":"perfectly legally entitled to look at it, then you don't want a situation where a"},{"startTime":1809.065,"endTime":1809.418,"body":"large number of adults can't look at it because of the way we've implemented age"},{"startTime":1809.418,"endTime":1809.77,"body":"verification, the Digital Economy Act in 2017, um, der strongly talked about age verification and"},{"startTime":1809.77,"endTime":1810.123,"body":"pornography providers then revoked the legislation a year later because there was lots of questions"},{"startTime":1810.123,"endTime":1832.685,"body":"about privacy issues and those sorts of things."},{"startTime":1833.665,"endTime":1839.118,"body":"Um, it's been acknowledged now that age verification using a toco based system is a"},{"startTime":1839.118,"endTime":1843.845,"body":"challenge, but now we're starting to go, well, why couldn't AI do it?"},{"startTime":1845.775,"endTime":1847.475,"body":"You know, it's, it's ever a clever ai."},{"startTime":1847.495,"endTime":1851.715,"body":"So so why don't we have age estimation technologies that can use it as well?"},{"startTime":1852.175,"endTime":1856.811,"body":"If you look at the information commissioners age appropriate design code, one of the suggestions,"},{"startTime":1856.811,"endTime":1857.121,"body":"which is actually quite good on the whole, um, one of the suggestions in that"},{"startTime":1857.121,"endTime":1857.43,"body":"is that providers might like to consider using a artificial intelligence based solution for age"},{"startTime":1857.43,"endTime":1866.395,"body":"estimation."},{"startTime":1867.375,"endTime":1873.729,"body":"Now, Yoti who are certainly one of the, the leaders in this area produced a"},{"startTime":1873.729,"endTime":1874.153,"body":"white paper last year saying we're about 95.5% accurate on estimating the age that someone"},{"startTime":1874.153,"endTime":1881.355,"body":"is under 23."},{"startTime":1881.495,"endTime":1883.395,"body":"How would you, how would you build this sort of system?"},{"startTime":1883.415,"endTime":1888.579,"body":"You collect up loads and loads of photographs of people knowing their ages, see them"},{"startTime":1888.579,"endTime":1890.645,"body":"in as a training data set."},{"startTime":1893.955,"endTime":1897.198,"body":"Do you remember, I dunno if you, as I said, I'm getting on a bit"},{"startTime":1897.198,"endTime":1897.415,"body":"now."},{"startTime":1897.665,"endTime":1902.02,"body":"There used to be regular local press stories about how the local stationers had sold"},{"startTime":1902.02,"endTime":1905.215,"body":"glue to a 13 year old and those sorts of things."},{"startTime":1905.615,"endTime":1906.535,"body":"Remember those sorts of stories?"},{"startTime":1908.375,"endTime":1909.215,"body":"I can remember it happening."},{"startTime":1909.275,"endTime":1911.935,"body":"My, my friend's mum worked in a local station."},{"startTime":1912.075,"endTime":1915.155,"body":"She came home one day in tears saying, well, I've had the local press phone"},{"startTime":1915.155,"endTime":1917.415,"body":"me up, say I've sold glue to a 14 year old."},{"startTime":1917.415,"endTime":1919.295,"body":"And she looked 18, she looked 18."},{"startTime":1920.155,"endTime":1927.215,"body":"So humans find it difficult to actually expect, um, an algorithm to do it effectively."},{"startTime":1927.715,"endTime":1934.087,"body":"Now we might say that's accurate enough, but equally we've then got the ethical challenge"},{"startTime":1934.087,"endTime":1938.335,"body":"of saying there are gonna be some people, sorry sir."},{"startTime":1938.335,"endTime":1939.015,"body":"Sorry madam."},{"startTime":1939.015,"endTime":1940.335,"body":"You're, you're very fresh faced."},{"startTime":1940.385,"endTime":1943.978,"body":"We're not sure you're over 18, so we're not going to let you access this"},{"startTime":1943.978,"endTime":1945.655,"body":"content that you are legally entitled to."},{"startTime":1945.655,"endTime":1949.575,"body":"Access starts to become an issue then."},{"startTime":1950.875,"endTime":1956.815,"body":"And then we get into 13, which is the, the digital age of consent."},{"startTime":1957.165,"endTime":1961.595,"body":"It's the, the number that all social media platforms are are generally set by in"},{"startTime":1961.595,"endTime":1964.845,"body":"terms of, uh, data collection from children, those sorts of things."},{"startTime":1964.955,"endTime":1970.394,"body":"That becomes even more challenging because first of all, what token based authentication might be"},{"startTime":1970.394,"endTime":1971.845,"body":"we we be using?"},{"startTime":1972.425,"endTime":1977.487,"body":"And secondly, are we talking about building a large database from children of that age"},{"startTime":1977.487,"endTime":1980.525,"body":"that we are then gonna use as training data?"},{"startTime":1980.905,"endTime":1984.005,"body":"So there starts to become some fairly significant challenges there."},{"startTime":1984.365,"endTime":1989.27,"body":"I spoke to someone from the AV industry last week, said, 18 is difficult enough"},{"startTime":1989.27,"endTime":1989.925,"body":"about 13."},{"startTime":1989.965,"endTime":1990.965,"body":"I went, oh, that's really difficult."},{"startTime":1991.025,"endTime":1992.725,"body":"If we could access school data, it'd be brilliant."},{"startTime":1992.745,"endTime":1997.325,"body":"But, um, obviously there are some significant challenges in that sort of thing as well."},{"startTime":1998.025,"endTime":2001.085,"body":"But the other thing is this is proposed as the solution."},{"startTime":2002.985,"endTime":2007.943,"body":"If we put age gating on pornography sites, children will no longer be able to"},{"startTime":2007.943,"endTime":2008.605,"body":"access pornography."},{"startTime":2009.345,"endTime":2013.14,"body":"And that's really quite challenging because what that's actually saying is if we stop it,"},{"startTime":2013.14,"endTime":2015.165,"body":"we don't have to address this social problem."},{"startTime":2018.725,"endTime":2022.25,"body":"A lot of pornography that young people access is peer generated and shared on mobile"},{"startTime":2022.25,"endTime":2022.485,"body":"phones."},{"startTime":2022.505,"endTime":2027.323,"body":"And similar young people will tell me, well yeah, it's, it's only UK based, isn't"},{"startTime":2027.323,"endTime":2027.645,"body":"it?"},{"startTime":2027.645,"endTime":2029.365,"body":"So I'll just get AVPN and bypass it."},{"startTime":2030.305,"endTime":2033.998,"body":"And then you get into political discussion about should we look at the legalities of"},{"startTime":2033.998,"endTime":2034.245,"body":"VPNs?"},{"startTime":2034.245,"endTime":2037.405,"body":"It's like, well I think privacy is a fundamental human right."},{"startTime":2037.445,"endTime":2039.365,"body":"I think we're still, we still agree with that."},{"startTime":2039.825,"endTime":2044.375,"body":"So when you start to talk, because you're sort of moving further and further into"},{"startTime":2044.375,"endTime":2048.925,"body":"the, the, the extreme position young people and VPNs and, and there's lots of reasons."},{"startTime":2049.745,"endTime":2052.925,"body":"You know, the dark web is another one where dark web's terrible."},{"startTime":2053.665,"endTime":2056.295,"body":"And we do a lot of, we did a lot of work with young people"},{"startTime":2056.295,"endTime":2058.925,"body":"on this sort of thing and generally speaking you go, what about the dark web?"},{"startTime":2058.925,"endTime":2059.685,"body":"They go, oh, it's bad."},{"startTime":2059.745,"endTime":2060.485,"body":"You stay off it."},{"startTime":2060.635,"endTime":2061.405,"body":"Have you ever used it?"},{"startTime":2061.465,"endTime":2061.685,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2063.185,"endTime":2066.466,"body":"One group of young people we spoke to, well yeah, it's brilliant, said, what's it"},{"startTime":2066.466,"endTime":2066.685,"body":"brilliant?"},{"startTime":2066.685,"endTime":2067.685,"body":"No one could see what you're browsing."},{"startTime":2067.915,"endTime":2072.72,"body":"That was a group of LGBT young people, some of whom said they had homophobic"},{"startTime":2072.72,"endTime":2076.565,"body":"parents for example, and um, it's allowed them to browse in private."},{"startTime":2076.824,"endTime":2082.239,"body":"So slight tangent there, but, but if you're talking about self-produced intimate imagery by teenagers,"},{"startTime":2082.239,"endTime":2084.405,"body":"that's not gonna be age gated."},{"startTime":2084.405,"endTime":2087.485,"body":"That's gonna be delivered on your phone, on a group chat, on a message, whatever."},{"startTime":2088.295,"endTime":2091.885,"body":"Which leads us onto the final piece of, of rhetoric."},{"startTime":2091.925,"endTime":2096.819,"body":"I I really want to look at all the main providers now have technology to"},{"startTime":2096.819,"endTime":2098.125,"body":"identify a nude image."},{"startTime":2101.345,"endTime":2106.29,"body":"And because now we've got age verification technology, which we kind of have, um, we"},{"startTime":2106.29,"endTime":2106.619,"body":"can identify that it's a nude, we can identify it's a young person using the"},{"startTime":2106.619,"endTime":2111.565,"body":"phone."},{"startTime":2111.625,"endTime":2113.605,"body":"We can stop that image from being transmitted."},{"startTime":2115.165,"endTime":2120.741,"body":"I could do a whole hour on the legalities and the challenges of teenagers and"},{"startTime":2120.741,"endTime":2121.485,"body":"intimate images."},{"startTime":2121.715,"endTime":2124.045,"body":"I've written a book on it, it's cracking read, you go out and buy."},{"startTime":2124.045,"endTime":2124.365,"body":"It's great."},{"startTime":2124.745,"endTime":2126.605,"body":"Um, \u003claugh\u003e, um,"},{"startTime":2131.615,"endTime":2133.265,"body":"This isn't the first time this has been said."},{"startTime":2133.265,"endTime":2137.702,"body":"There have been a number of other times in in select committees or similar, we've"},{"startTime":2137.702,"endTime":2140.365,"body":"got the technology to identify a nude image now."},{"startTime":2140.505,"endTime":2145.736,"body":"And if it's a young person, we should stop it from being sent these clever"},{"startTime":2145.736,"endTime":2146.085,"body":"algorithms."},{"startTime":2146.085,"endTime":2146.965,"body":"They can do that, can't they?"},{"startTime":2146.985,"endTime":2147.965,"body":"You clever techie people."},{"startTime":2148.025,"endTime":2149.485,"body":"Why haven't you implemented this yet?"},{"startTime":2150.585,"endTime":2156.271,"body":"Um, to unpick this, you know what I was saying about training data for algorithms,"},{"startTime":2156.271,"endTime":2156.65,"body":"you feed it a load of images of the thing you wanted to detect and"},{"startTime":2156.65,"endTime":2166.885,"body":"then it gets more and more accurate in detecting those sorts of things."},{"startTime":2168.085,"endTime":2169.405,"body":"Nudity is what nudity is a challenge."},{"startTime":2169.445,"endTime":2172.765,"body":"I dunno whether anyone's got any experience of nudity detection algorithms."},{"startTime":2172.865,"endTime":2176.27,"body":"You might not wanna put your hand up if that's okay, \u003claugh\u003e, but nudity is"},{"startTime":2176.27,"endTime":2176.725,"body":"a challenge."},{"startTime":2176.745,"endTime":2177.205,"body":"Why is that?"},{"startTime":2177.205,"endTime":2182.342,"body":"Because it's a very broad domain, how people pose in nude images and things isn't"},{"startTime":2182.342,"endTime":2182.685,"body":"similar."},{"startTime":2182.825,"endTime":2186.005,"body":"You have, I'm not gonna go into the detail, but you know what I mean."},{"startTime":2187.225,"endTime":2192.365,"body":"And um, traditionally large platforms have had a big challenge with controlling people put this"},{"startTime":2192.365,"endTime":2194.765,"body":"stuff up, it's getting a lot better."},{"startTime":2195.505,"endTime":2200.541,"body":"As with all of these things, it's getting a lot better, but specifically it's saying"},{"startTime":2200.541,"endTime":2201.885,"body":"intimate images of children."},{"startTime":2203.835,"endTime":2204.575,"body":"How can we stop?"},{"startTime":2205.075,"endTime":2208.78,"body":"How can we build a system that identifies an intimate image of a child and"},{"startTime":2208.78,"endTime":2210.015,"body":"prevents it from being sent?"},{"startTime":2211.235,"endTime":2213.695,"body":"So what do you think that training data might look like?"},{"startTime":2214.115,"endTime":2216.935,"body":"And that's where it becomes really, really problematic."},{"startTime":2217.075,"endTime":2221.77,"body":"Now, there are some law enforcement systems that train triaging for child abuse data on,"},{"startTime":2221.77,"endTime":2223.335,"body":"on these sorts of things."},{"startTime":2223.455,"endTime":2226.775,"body":"I won't get into that now, but that also presents some interesting ethical challenges."},{"startTime":2226.775,"endTime":2232.351,"body":"But the idea that an app provider for example, or you need your, your training"},{"startTime":2232.351,"endTime":2232.723,"body":"data and you need to build in the functionality that, that, that starts to become"},{"startTime":2232.723,"endTime":2239.415,"body":"really, really quite problematic."},{"startTime":2239.635,"endTime":2243.385,"body":"But from the public rhetoric, there's a politician that stood up in parliament said they"},{"startTime":2243.385,"endTime":2244.135,"body":"can do it."},{"startTime":2244.135,"endTime":2249.535,"body":"So why aren't they's like, well, because it's far more complicated than that."},{"startTime":2249.535,"endTime":2251.615,"body":"And then you get into determining the age of the device."},{"startTime":2252.705,"endTime":2256.175,"body":"We've already established that age verification technology isn't perfect."},{"startTime":2257.715,"endTime":2259.255,"body":"You've also got hand me down phones."},{"startTime":2259.315,"endTime":2262.775,"body":"You've also got, uh, pay-as-you-go phones in similar way."},{"startTime":2262.775,"endTime":2264.175,"body":"You haven't quite got the accuracy."},{"startTime":2264.175,"endTime":2269.006,"body":"Are we then gonna be in a situation where an adult takes an intimate image"},{"startTime":2269.006,"endTime":2273.515,"body":"and the app goes, you can't send that because we don't think you're older."},{"startTime":2273.535,"endTime":2277.908,"body":"You know, it's, it starts to become really problematic in terms of rights and then"},{"startTime":2277.908,"endTime":2279.075,"body":"the prevention of transmission."},{"startTime":2279.185,"endTime":2283.439,"body":"It's not just SMS, it could be any one of many, many messaging platforms we're"},{"startTime":2283.439,"endTime":2283.722,"body":"saying that every single app provider needs to do this or are we talking about"},{"startTime":2283.722,"endTime":2289.395,"body":"doing it at a mobile level?"},{"startTime":2289.985,"endTime":2293.155,"body":"Once you start to unpick it, it starts to become really, really quite complicated."},{"startTime":2293.735,"endTime":2298.045,"body":"Um, and there's lots of other things as an ecosystem we could be doing rather"},{"startTime":2298.045,"endTime":2302.355,"body":"than just sitting there going, can't they just get some clever software to stop this?"},{"startTime":2302.715,"endTime":2304.595,"body":"'cause that's easiest for us."},{"startTime":2306.495,"endTime":2307.875,"body":"So can I, uh, protect children?"},{"startTime":2308.095,"endTime":2311.155,"body":"No, can't, sorry, \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2311.455,"endTime":2317.057,"body":"Um, but it could be used as part of a toolbox for technical interventions and"},{"startTime":2317.057,"endTime":2318.925,"body":"platforms already do this stuff."},{"startTime":2320.275,"endTime":2327.165,"body":"There's lots of machine learning based aspects of, of safety tech within platforms."},{"startTime":2329.425,"endTime":2334.589,"body":"But sitting there and going, this happens online, this happens via digital technology, therefore digital"},{"startTime":2334.589,"endTime":2334.934,"body":"technology can solve it is something that I find quite problematic and I'll come back"},{"startTime":2334.934,"endTime":2342.165,"body":"to that in in a little while."},{"startTime":2342.525,"endTime":2345.685,"body":"I see some really good stuff happening outside of the AI world."},{"startTime":2345.885,"endTime":2352.239,"body":"I dunno if anyone anyone's heard of Stop NCII, um, which is a, is a"},{"startTime":2352.239,"endTime":2352.663,"body":"development by a charity with a lot of in-kind contribution from meta, which uses fairly,"},{"startTime":2352.663,"endTime":2364.525,"body":"I hesitate to use the word 'cause hashing isn't just straightforward, fairly straightforward technology."},{"startTime":2365.145,"endTime":2369.266,"body":"But, but what this is doing is if you've taken intimate some intimate images of"},{"startTime":2369.266,"endTime":2369.541,"body":"yourself and sent it to somebody and then that somebody is then abusing you, they've"},{"startTime":2369.541,"endTime":2376.685,"body":"either uploaded those images somewhere or they're threatening to upload those images."},{"startTime":2378.555,"endTime":2383.3,"body":"What you can do is download a piece of software, run something called hashing, which"},{"startTime":2383.3,"endTime":2383.616,"body":"basically just runs, uh, a piece of code onto the image, processes a data in"},{"startTime":2383.616,"endTime":2391.525,"body":"the image and produces something like a fingerprint of that image."},{"startTime":2391.905,"endTime":2396.22,"body":"So rather than having to share that image with other people and going, I think"},{"startTime":2396.22,"endTime":2396.508,"body":"this image of me is out there, you share the hash instead that goes into"},{"startTime":2396.508,"endTime":2404.565,"body":"a large database and lots of technology providers are now taking that hash database."},{"startTime":2405.065,"endTime":2409.28,"body":"So if someone does try and upload it onto their platform, it'll go down the"},{"startTime":2409.28,"endTime":2410.685,"body":"hash list and go, no."},{"startTime":2411.465,"endTime":2417.08,"body":"And it's really interesting 'cause it's, it's, it's not very well known, but as a,"},{"startTime":2417.08,"endTime":2417.455,"body":"a simple model of empowerment, now it will set up to protect adult victims of"},{"startTime":2417.455,"endTime":2423.445,"body":"image-based abuse."},{"startTime":2423.625,"endTime":2428.165,"body":"But ncmec, um, whose acronym always escapes me, Vic,"},{"startTime":2429.165,"endTime":2430.245,"body":"National Center for Missing and"},{"startTime":2430.245,"endTime":2433.895,"body":"Exploited Children National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the US is now saying"},{"startTime":2433.895,"endTime":2436.085,"body":"we're gonna provide this for young people as well."},{"startTime":2436.905,"endTime":2440.205,"body":"So young people who might be being victimized or coerced or something as a result"},{"startTime":2440.205,"endTime":2442.405,"body":"of sharing these images can also, no, it's not perfect."},{"startTime":2442.455,"endTime":2446.746,"body":"There are lots of challenges in terms of what happens if someone wants to upload"},{"startTime":2446.746,"endTime":2447.033,"body":"hashes that aren't of intimate images and they're just trying to poison the database and"},{"startTime":2447.033,"endTime":2451.325,"body":"similar."},{"startTime":2451.785,"endTime":2456.556,"body":"But it's a really nice example of something that that's away from the complexities of"},{"startTime":2456.556,"endTime":2456.875,"body":"machine learning are similar and it addresses a a point and it provides imp empowerment"},{"startTime":2456.875,"endTime":2461.965,"body":"to victims."},{"startTime":2464.065,"endTime":2469.887,"body":"But all of these things, I, I run a, a survey with a charity I"},{"startTime":2469.887,"endTime":2472.605,"body":"work with called Southwest Bridge for Learning."},{"startTime":2473.495,"endTime":2476.045,"body":"We've got around 16,000 responses from you."},{"startTime":2476.045,"endTime":2476.445,"body":"It's basic."},{"startTime":2476.475,"endTime":2479.605,"body":"It's a fairly basic survey asking them about their online behavior."},{"startTime":2480.425,"endTime":2482.998,"body":"One of the questions we ask is, have you ever been upset by anything that's"},{"startTime":2482.998,"endTime":2483.685,"body":"happened to you online?"},{"startTime":2484.915,"endTime":2487.245,"body":"70% of the time they say no."},{"startTime":2487.745,"endTime":2491.138,"body":"So this is a sample of 16,000 young people for those of your parents or"},{"startTime":2491.138,"endTime":2491.365,"body":"grandparents."},{"startTime":2492.385,"endTime":2496.625,"body":"For the majority of young people, they've never had a negative online experience, which is"},{"startTime":2496.625,"endTime":2498.605,"body":"quite nice to hear really, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2499.185,"endTime":2502.685,"body":"But when you say for those who said that, yes, there was."},{"startTime":2503.185,"endTime":2504.965,"body":"And you say, can you explain what that is?"},{"startTime":2507.345,"endTime":2510.99,"body":"Now all I did was take, this'll be in a book I'm writing at the"},{"startTime":2510.99,"endTime":2512.205,"body":"moment, comes out next year."},{"startTime":2512.205,"endTime":2514.325,"body":"So you're getting a sneak peek at new data here."},{"startTime":2515.445,"endTime":2518.125,"body":"I just took all of the descriptions of the things they described as upsetting."},{"startTime":2518.185,"endTime":2520.845,"body":"The biggest thing that comes out is people, somebody."},{"startTime":2522.235,"endTime":2525.245,"body":"It's people that are causing harm, people that are causing them upset online."},{"startTime":2526.205,"endTime":2530.582,"body":"Interestingly, when you unpick the content side of this, because there is a lot of"},{"startTime":2530.582,"endTime":2530.874,"body":"concern about young people accessing inappropriate content and lots of people seeing upsetting content, an"},{"startTime":2530.874,"endTime":2539.045,"body":"awful lot of what young people say is upsetting content relates to current affairs."},{"startTime":2539.985,"endTime":2543.021,"body":"So when the Manchester bombing happened, there's a lot of young people saying they saw"},{"startTime":2543.021,"endTime":2545.045,"body":"something about Manchester bombing happening and it was really upsetting."},{"startTime":2545.935,"endTime":2548.325,"body":"Large amounts of young people talk about climate change."},{"startTime":2548.405,"endTime":2550.445,"body":"Seeing coverage of climate change is really upsetting."},{"startTime":2551.385,"endTime":2555.78,"body":"So if we're saying we want an algorithmic intervention to stop young people seeing upsetting"},{"startTime":2555.78,"endTime":2558.125,"body":"content, who defines what that upsetting content is?"},{"startTime":2559.225,"endTime":2564.343,"body":"And, and here you've got a very clear view that it's people that cause problems"},{"startTime":2564.343,"endTime":2564.685,"body":"online."},{"startTime":2565.385,"endTime":2571.336,"body":"And I am reminded and if you text now what Ray's law is, Marcus Rayham,"},{"startTime":2571.336,"endTime":2571.733,"body":"who was a very famous cybersecurity researcher, came out with this statement a few years"},{"startTime":2571.733,"endTime":2577.685,"body":"ago."},{"startTime":2579.665,"endTime":2581.485,"body":"You don't solve social problems with software."},{"startTime":2583.145,"endTime":2584.565,"body":"It can help certainly."},{"startTime":2585.065,"endTime":2590.596,"body":"And um, I'm certainly not saying in this talk laser tech platforms alone, they've done"},{"startTime":2590.596,"endTime":2590.965,"body":"enough."},{"startTime":2591.265,"endTime":2592.405,"body":"I'm saying they could do more."},{"startTime":2592.765,"endTime":2593.605,"body":"Absolutely they could do more."},{"startTime":2593.945,"endTime":2596.445,"body":"But not with everyone else sat on the sidelines going,"},{"startTime":2598.905,"endTime":2600.405,"body":"Why aren't they doing, why aren't they swaping this out?"},{"startTime":2601.105,"endTime":2601.485,"body":"You know,"},{"startTime":2604.725,"endTime":2609.005,"body":"I spend a lot of time bizarrely looking at the drug policy world as well."},{"startTime":2610.205,"endTime":2613.271,"body":"'cause if you look at a lot of the discussions around the misuse of drugs"},{"startTime":2613.271,"endTime":2615.725,"body":"act and similar in the seventies, the language is exactly the same."},{"startTime":2615.745,"endTime":2616.925,"body":"We need to stop this from happening."},{"startTime":2616.925,"endTime":2622.325,"body":"We've got lots of examples of prohibit prohibitive social policy that haven't worked."},{"startTime":2623.385,"endTime":2626.647,"body":"I'm looking around the room, some of you will know who I mean by zamo"},{"startTime":2626.647,"endTime":2628.605,"body":"from Grange Hill, that very famous Grange Hill storyline."},{"startTime":2628.995,"endTime":2630.405,"body":"Just say, no, don't take drugs."},{"startTime":2630.405,"endTime":2633.33,"body":"So nobody of my age has ever taken drugs because we had some very clear"},{"startTime":2633.33,"endTime":2635.085,"body":"messages that you shouldn't take drugs 'cause it's illegal."},{"startTime":2635.505,"endTime":2636.645,"body":"That's fair to say, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2636.965,"endTime":2641.965,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e?"},{"startTime":2637.625,"endTime":2640.405,"body":"Um, some people I know of my age still take them."},{"startTime":2643.465,"endTime":2644.605,"body":"It is a part to play."},{"startTime":2645.665,"endTime":2647.245,"body":"But there are lots of other things as well."},{"startTime":2647.245,"endTime":2649.765,"body":"And, and we know that prohibition generally doesn't work."},{"startTime":2651.225,"endTime":2654.685,"body":"I'm going to leave you with a comment from a, a young person."},{"startTime":2656.085,"endTime":2657.765,"body":"I said to the, it was a few years ago now."},{"startTime":2658.285,"endTime":2663.347,"body":"I said to them, I'm going to parliament tomorrow to talk to politicians about internet"},{"startTime":2663.347,"endTime":2663.685,"body":"safety."},{"startTime":2664.595,"endTime":2666.085,"body":"What do you think internet safety is?"},{"startTime":2666.465,"endTime":2668.085,"body":"And I think she was about 12."},{"startTime":2669.105,"endTime":2670.365,"body":"She came up with this statement here."},{"startTime":2672.875,"endTime":2673.565,"body":"It's brilliant"},{"startTime":2677.795,"endTime":2681.565,"body":"When I talk to young people about what we can do to help them."},{"startTime":2682.665,"endTime":2686.88,"body":"It is very rare a young person will ever say, can you bring big tech"},{"startTime":2686.88,"endTime":2688.005,"body":"billionaires to heal, please?"},{"startTime":2689.185,"endTime":2692.645,"body":"Now there are comments around, you know, platforms could do more."},{"startTime":2693.545,"endTime":2697.413,"body":"One of the really useful things that no one's talking around in the online safety"},{"startTime":2697.413,"endTime":2698.445,"body":"bill is transparency reporting."},{"startTime":2699.345,"endTime":2703.15,"body":"So platforms have to publish data on how many reports they've dealt with, how many"},{"startTime":2703.15,"endTime":2704.165,"body":"accounts they've taken down."},{"startTime":2704.165,"endTime":2708.146,"body":"All that stuff's really useful to people like me because young people say there's no"},{"startTime":2708.146,"endTime":2710.005,"body":"point in reporting stuff 'cause nothing happens."},{"startTime":2710.905,"endTime":2714.373,"body":"So if we're getting more and more evidence of stuff does happen, that's really, really"},{"startTime":2714.373,"endTime":2714.605,"body":"useful."},{"startTime":2715.385,"endTime":2718.472,"body":"But most of the time, and bear in mind, I've been doing this for 20"},{"startTime":2718.472,"endTime":2718.677,"body":"odd years, when I say what can we do to help, it's generally about better"},{"startTime":2718.677,"endTime":2721.765,"body":"education."},{"startTime":2722.315,"endTime":2724.405,"body":"It's generally about adults not freaking out."},{"startTime":2725.015,"endTime":2728.676,"body":"We're not gonna disclose because someone's gonna take our phone off us or someone's gonna"},{"startTime":2728.676,"endTime":2731.605,"body":"tell us off or all the classic, you shouldn't have done that."},{"startTime":2731.625,"endTime":2732.325,"body":"That's illegal."},{"startTime":2733.025,"endTime":2736.445,"body":"Pretty much a guarantee that young person's not gonna disclose concern of harm."},{"startTime":2738.865,"endTime":2741.405,"body":"And if you look through the online safety billers, I'm sure you all have."},{"startTime":2741.565,"endTime":2745.485,"body":"'cause I know I have, um, very, very few mentions education in the entire thing."},{"startTime":2745.515,"endTime":2748.125,"body":"It's, it's almost focused on entirely one stakeholder."},{"startTime":2748.505,"endTime":2752.278,"body":"Now I know Professor Baes here has talked about public health models in these sorts"},{"startTime":2752.278,"endTime":2753.285,"body":"of areas as well."},{"startTime":2753.475,"endTime":2754.765,"body":"That makes a lot more sense."},{"startTime":2755.195,"endTime":2757.125,"body":"This is why I don't like the term online safety."},{"startTime":2757.405,"endTime":2759.485,"body":"'cause safety implies we can make people free from harm."},{"startTime":2760.105,"endTime":2764.864,"body":"I'd much rather look at it from a, uh, uh, acknowledging the harms, looking at"},{"startTime":2764.864,"endTime":2765.181,"body":"how we mitigate risk of harm and adopting harm reduction approaches within an, I hate"},{"startTime":2765.181,"endTime":2765.499,"body":"to use these within an ecosystem where we all have a part to play because"},{"startTime":2765.499,"endTime":2776.605,"body":"we're all pulling in the same direction."},{"startTime":2776.805,"endTime":2780.005,"body":"Ultimately, we want young people to be safe online and have positive experiences."},{"startTime":2780.555,"endTime":2784.429,"body":"Most of them do, but sometimes things go wrong and we need to better support"},{"startTime":2784.429,"endTime":2788.045,"body":"that rather than just sitting there going, surely the platforms can sort this out."},{"startTime":2788.045,"endTime":2791.965,"body":"We've got all this AI now it's ever as a clever so shall finish there."},{"startTime":2792.545,"endTime":2792.765,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2794.675,"endTime":2798.498,"body":"Yeah, we've got a time for a little bit of question at the end, but,"},{"startTime":2798.498,"endTime":2798.753,"body":"but for those of you that are parents or grandparents, most of the time kids"},{"startTime":2798.753,"endTime":2799.008,"body":"are having a really positive experience online, but that's not gonna get clicks or it's"},{"startTime":2799.008,"endTime":2807.165,"body":"not gonna sell newspapers."},{"startTime":2807.165,"endTime":2812.07,"body":"And similar, which is why we see all the, all the excitable stuff about, uh,"},{"startTime":2812.07,"endTime":2812.725,"body":"terrible things."},{"startTime":2812.745,"endTime":2816.535,"body":"And, and for 20 years now young people have been saying, I'm not gonna ask"},{"startTime":2816.535,"endTime":2816.788,"body":"for help because I know it's gonna be made worse or I'm gonna get told"},{"startTime":2816.788,"endTime":2821.085,"body":"off for it."},{"startTime":2821.915,"endTime":2824.805,"body":"Very rare they say, can we have better technical interventions, please?"},{"startTime":2825.345,"endTime":2827.125,"body":"What's it those tech boffins."},{"startTime":2827.125,"endTime":2828.605,"body":"Why can't, why can't they do this?"},{"startTime":2828.605,"endTime":2830.976,"body":"Well, you know, if it was easy, we'd have done it by now 'cause it's"},{"startTime":2830.976,"endTime":2831.925,"body":"been around for a long time."},{"startTime":2831.985,"endTime":2833.645,"body":"But thanks for coming out."},{"startTime":2834.165,"endTime":2837.605,"body":"I really hope the rain starts on you, but lovely seal."},{"startTime":2837.965,"endTime":2838.325,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2847.855,"endTime":2848.645,"body":"Hello everyone."},{"startTime":2849.125,"endTime":2850.405,"body":"I am Victoria Baes."},{"startTime":2850.405,"endTime":2856.525,"body":"I'm the professor of it here at Gresham and an swell co-author of Andy Pippen."},{"startTime":2856.705,"endTime":2860.085,"body":"And we do have about 10 minutes for questions."},{"startTime":2860.665,"endTime":2864.005,"body":"Um, you'll be very pleased to hear that we do have, I've seen you sir."},{"startTime":2864.005,"endTime":2864.765,"body":"Don't worry \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2864.765,"endTime":2865.565,"body":"Um, you'll be very pleased."},{"startTime":2865.565,"endTime":2865.845,"body":"Hear that."},{"startTime":2865.845,"endTime":2870.082,"body":"We do have some very thoughtful questions online, but some, which I have to be"},{"startTime":2870.082,"endTime":2870.365,"body":"honest, if I had to answer these, it would be a three hour sit down"},{"startTime":2870.365,"endTime":2874.885,"body":"for everybody."},{"startTime":2875.465,"endTime":2883.005,"body":"Um, so not wanting to pardon upon steal Sandra Vatas Thunder from, um, her lecture."},{"startTime":2883.345,"endTime":2887.085,"body":"In your opinion, what is the legal future of this matter?"},{"startTime":2889.565,"endTime":2889.925,"body":"A mess."},{"startTime":2890.315,"endTime":2891.245,"body":"Basically \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2891.265,"endTime":2895.748,"body":"Um, I mean there's an awful lot of talk around tech regulation and AI regulation"},{"startTime":2895.748,"endTime":2896.645,"body":"at the moment."},{"startTime":2897.025,"endTime":2902.325,"body":"Um, there are competing voices in that area as well."},{"startTime":2903.625,"endTime":2908.413,"body":"My view of particularly the stuff around you need to regulate us because we're gonna"},{"startTime":2908.413,"endTime":2911.925,"body":"achieve sentient soon is it's a bit like pointing over there."},{"startTime":2912.085,"endTime":2913.045,"body":"'cause they don't want you to see over there."},{"startTime":2913.265,"endTime":2917.968,"body":"My, my fear is really about the more low level stuff, like taking all of"},{"startTime":2917.968,"endTime":2922.045,"body":"our data and using it without consent for, for these sorts of things."},{"startTime":2922.105,"endTime":2926.918,"body":"Or HR departments buying a piece of kit which can assess someone's capability for the"},{"startTime":2926.918,"endTime":2929.165,"body":"job by scanning a five minute video."},{"startTime":2929.865,"endTime":2931.365,"body":"And yes, those systems do exist."},{"startTime":2931.865,"endTime":2936.223,"body":"Um, which is, you know, those sorts of things is why I talk more about"},{"startTime":2936.223,"endTime":2936.805,"body":"AI literacy."},{"startTime":2937.165,"endTime":2941.565,"body":"I think one of the challenges, a lot of the policy makers while being very"},{"startTime":2941.565,"endTime":2943.325,"body":"bright, don't have a tech background."},{"startTime":2943.845,"endTime":2948.856,"body":"I was asked, um, I'm doing some training with some board level folk next year"},{"startTime":2948.856,"endTime":2949.19,"body":"and the people organizing it said, what advice would you give a board member about"},{"startTime":2949.19,"endTime":2955.205,"body":"this sort of thing?"},{"startTime":2955.205,"endTime":2958.362,"body":"I said, well, listen to the techs because they're the ones who actually have to"},{"startTime":2958.362,"endTime":2959.205,"body":"put this stuff together."},{"startTime":2959.225,"endTime":2963.125,"body":"And those are the ones that, um, you know, it's kind of been lost in"},{"startTime":2963.125,"endTime":2963.645,"body":"this discourse."},{"startTime":2963.805,"endTime":2965.725,"body":"'cause it's almost like, well you would say it's not possible."},{"startTime":2965.725,"endTime":2966.485,"body":"You don't want to do it."},{"startTime":2966.665,"endTime":2968.165,"body":"No, that's not my experience."},{"startTime":2968.165,"endTime":2970.775,"body":"So I I think short answer to it is I think it's gonna be a"},{"startTime":2970.775,"endTime":2971.645,"body":"mess for a few years."},{"startTime":2972.345,"endTime":2975.581,"body":"Um, if you look, the online safety builders reached a scent now, now the poor"},{"startTime":2975.581,"endTime":2976.445,"body":"souls are off com."},{"startTime":2976.445,"endTime":2980.725,"body":"Have to actually look at it and see how on earth you implement this, this"},{"startTime":2980.725,"endTime":2985.005,"body":"spaghetti of legislation, which does read a little bit like, oh yeah, and another thing."},{"startTime":2985.345,"endTime":2987.165,"body":"And yeah, let's put that in as well, \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2987.385,"endTime":2990.725,"body":"Um, and if you look at the debates, it's, it's similar to that."},{"startTime":2990.825,"endTime":2994.485,"body":"So, um, I've got about 10 years before I retire."},{"startTime":2994.485,"endTime":2997.061,"body":"I've probably got three or four books in me around the law in this area"},{"startTime":2997.061,"endTime":2997.405,"body":"before then"},{"startTime":2998.685,"endTime":3002.085,"body":"I noticed that we've, we've already had some questions in parliament, haven't we?"},{"startTime":3002.085,"endTime":3007.11,"body":"And in select committees about, um, will the metaverse be covered in the online safety"},{"startTime":3007.11,"endTime":3007.445,"body":"bill?"},{"startTime":3007.445,"endTime":3010.476,"body":"And of course the answer has been yes, of course it will be, even though"},{"startTime":3010.476,"endTime":3011.285,"body":"it doesn't exist yet."},{"startTime":3011.605,"endTime":3015.925,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e, we've absolutely covered for it in our future proofed legislation."},{"startTime":3016.555,"endTime":3017.485,"body":"Metaverse cool."},{"startTime":3017.485,"endTime":3021.045,"body":"Well it's, it's generally, yes, 50 year old blokes that think it's cool \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":3021.125,"endTime":3021.245,"body":"I"},{"startTime":3021.365,"endTime":3024.045,"body":"I, yes, please watch my talk on the metaverse."},{"startTime":3024.055,"endTime":3026.125,"body":"Sorry, I just thought I hijacked that."},{"startTime":3026.385,"endTime":3027.125,"body":"Um, go for it."},{"startTime":3027.265,"endTime":3028.965,"body":"So, so we have you at the front here."},{"startTime":3029.025,"endTime":3031.782,"body":"Do we have a, if you just wait a second for the mic to reach"},{"startTime":3031.782,"endTime":3033.805,"body":"you so that the people at home can hear your question."},{"startTime":3034.775,"endTime":3035.125,"body":"Hello?"},{"startTime":3035.345,"endTime":3035.885,"body":"Can you hear me?"},{"startTime":3035.885,"endTime":3036.325,"body":"Oh, that's better."},{"startTime":3036.345,"endTime":3037.005,"body":"We can, that's better."},{"startTime":3037.055,"endTime":3040.365,"body":"There was a recent documentary on one of the mainstream TV channels."},{"startTime":3041.745,"endTime":3048.503,"body":"Um, it was about a generative AI system that was generating explicit pictures of child"},{"startTime":3048.503,"endTime":3049.405,"body":"sexual abuse."},{"startTime":3049.865,"endTime":3052.405,"body":"The reporter was reduced to tears."},{"startTime":3053.685,"endTime":3056.125,"body":"I don't know if you're aware of this documentary, either of you."},{"startTime":3056.305,"endTime":3059.857,"body":"I'm aware of it and, um, it's, uh, it's an area of a lot of"},{"startTime":3059.857,"endTime":3060.805,"body":"concern at the moment."},{"startTime":3060.805,"endTime":3061.045,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3061.665,"endTime":3067.965,"body":"My question is, if the AI system was trained sufficiently well on existing child pornography"},{"startTime":3067.965,"endTime":3068.385,"body":"images so that it could generate them on request, why isn't it able to have"},{"startTime":3068.385,"endTime":3076.365,"body":"an AI system recognize them?"},{"startTime":3077.275,"endTime":3083.813,"body":"Well, first of all, the production of those images is, um, on the very edge"},{"startTime":3083.813,"endTime":3089.045,"body":"of, um, the sorts of things that, that these systems can do."},{"startTime":3089.905,"endTime":3097.119,"body":"Um, and secondly, it would, or a system could potentially identify those sorts of things"},{"startTime":3097.119,"endTime":3100.005,"body":"depending on the training data though."},{"startTime":3101.145,"endTime":3106.313,"body":"So would you train it with actual images of child abuse or would you train"},{"startTime":3106.313,"endTime":3108.725,"body":"it with generated images of child abuse?"},{"startTime":3108.905,"endTime":3112.405,"body":"And it starts to become extremely problematic in term."},{"startTime":3112.665,"endTime":3117.076,"body":"So like I said, there are some law enforcement systems that do do that, but"},{"startTime":3117.076,"endTime":3117.37,"body":"you do raise questions and of, well, that's an image of child abuse, that's someone"},{"startTime":3117.37,"endTime":3125.605,"body":"being abused, has that victim consented to that image being used in that way?"},{"startTime":3125.665,"endTime":3129.796,"body":"So it starts to become a, an extremely heavy and complex area in terms of"},{"startTime":3129.796,"endTime":3131.725,"body":"what the training data would look like."},{"startTime":3132.465,"endTime":3136.744,"body":"But this is one of the areas where clearly it's unacceptable and clearly if you"},{"startTime":3136.744,"endTime":3137.029,"body":"have a system that's doing that, actually there was a, I listened to a podcast"},{"startTime":3137.029,"endTime":3142.165,"body":"about it this morning."},{"startTime":3142.745,"endTime":3148.317,"body":"Um, it's on the extreme end of things and, and clearly there are use cases"},{"startTime":3148.317,"endTime":3148.689,"body":"where there really isn't any debate in terms of, oh, it's okay because it is"},{"startTime":3148.689,"endTime":3155.005,"body":"unacceptable to do."},{"startTime":3155.105,"endTime":3159.487,"body":"But the, the challenge is always where does the training data come from and what"},{"startTime":3159.487,"endTime":3163.285,"body":"is the training data to be able to identify those sorts of things."},{"startTime":3165.755,"endTime":3166.925,"body":"Gentlemen, at the back there?"},{"startTime":3166.925,"endTime":3167.125,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3167.465,"endTime":3169.005,"body":"Not, not a very technical question."},{"startTime":3169.625,"endTime":3173.485,"body":"Um, but um, obviously the Pandora's box is open."},{"startTime":3174.145,"endTime":3176.685,"body":"Um, everyone is addicted to their phones."},{"startTime":3177.465,"endTime":3182.661,"body":"Um, and I was hearing a news article, I think it was yesterday, that every"},{"startTime":3182.661,"endTime":3187.165,"body":"day about four children are killed or injured on their phones crossing roads."},{"startTime":3187.905,"endTime":3194.445,"body":"Um, is there any way AI could detect on GIS systems where the child is?"},{"startTime":3194.645,"endTime":3199.82,"body":"I mean is could it everywhere that's sophisticated and basically cut off access at such"},{"startTime":3199.82,"endTime":3200.165,"body":"points?"},{"startTime":3201.905,"endTime":3206.933,"body":"No, I, again, I don't, I'm looking at some of the folk that put put"},{"startTime":3206.933,"endTime":3207.269,"body":"their hands up and said, you know, technically GP s based data and things, it"},{"startTime":3207.269,"endTime":3207.604,"body":"doesn't seem to be a, a massively complex one compared to something like image recognition"},{"startTime":3207.604,"endTime":3207.939,"body":"of educators and similar, but, um, it's the accuracy of, of the GPS that I"},{"startTime":3207.939,"endTime":3208.274,"body":"think would be the problem with that because our GPS isn't as accurate, for example,"},{"startTime":3208.274,"endTime":3228.725,"body":"as military GPS or whatever."},{"startTime":3228.785,"endTime":3231.645,"body":"So, so it's how accurate it it could be."},{"startTime":3231.745,"endTime":3231.965,"body":"And"},{"startTime":3233.585,"endTime":3237.3,"body":"Again, in that case it sounds like a, a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but"},{"startTime":3237.3,"endTime":3241.015,"body":"I think there would be challenges in, in the accuracy of those sorts of things."},{"startTime":3242.075,"endTime":3246.084,"body":"But, but technically, because, you know, you look at the wonders of Google Maps and"},{"startTime":3246.084,"endTime":3246.351,"body":"the fact it'll tell you a road's being congested and things, we know that stuff"},{"startTime":3246.351,"endTime":3250.895,"body":"works quite well."},{"startTime":3251.035,"endTime":3256.294,"body":"So it's, it's not, it's not a bad, um, idea to, to explore in more"},{"startTime":3256.294,"endTime":3256.645,"body":"detail, but I think it's not one of the, um, sexier areas of this sort"},{"startTime":3256.645,"endTime":3262.255,"body":"of thing."},{"startTime":3262.275,"endTime":3264.535,"body":"So, absolutely."},{"startTime":3264.535,"endTime":3268.763,"body":"Well, I mean, this comes back to the fact that that simple harm reduction based"},{"startTime":3268.763,"endTime":3269.045,"body":"education is, you know, when Pokemon Go was, was a big deal, you'd get people"},{"startTime":3269.045,"endTime":3276.375,"body":"chasing virtual Pokemon across the street into traffic and things as well."},{"startTime":3276.875,"endTime":3282.786,"body":"Um, rather than look at a technical solution, do we have these conversations in schools"},{"startTime":3282.786,"endTime":3283.575,"body":"and things?"},{"startTime":3283.675,"endTime":3287.164,"body":"Now I look at a very large database of what is delivered in these sorts"},{"startTime":3287.164,"endTime":3288.095,"body":"of areas in schools."},{"startTime":3288.115,"endTime":3289.775,"body":"And I'd say no, it really isn't."},{"startTime":3290.355,"endTime":3292.095,"body":"Um, but there's very little guidance."},{"startTime":3292.195,"endTime":3296.282,"body":"You know, I, the last thing I would say is if teachers need to sort"},{"startTime":3296.282,"endTime":3296.555,"body":"this out without guidance, they, they can't sort this out and without it being treated"},{"startTime":3296.555,"endTime":3296.827,"body":"like a for, for, for those of you that look fresh faced and young, I"},{"startTime":3296.827,"endTime":3307.455,"body":"would imagine your online safety educational experiences would, don't do it."},{"startTime":3307.455,"endTime":3311.902,"body":"Don't look at it and ignore it rather than think critically about what you're doing"},{"startTime":3311.902,"endTime":3312.495,"body":"with it."},{"startTime":3312.615,"endTime":3314.135,"body":"I think that's one of the fundamental challenges."},{"startTime":3315.165,"endTime":3315.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3315.635,"endTime":3321.916,"body":"You mentioned about some of the biases and algorithms due to lack of, uh, data"},{"startTime":3321.916,"endTime":3322.335,"body":"collection."},{"startTime":3322.335,"endTime":3322.695,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":3322.735,"endTime":3327.735,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":3323.275,"endTime":3328.666,"body":"Um, so what are some of the things that you're seeing, uh, that, uh, tech"},{"startTime":3328.666,"endTime":3329.025,"body":"companies or maybe other organizations that uh, um, uh, they're putting together in order to"},{"startTime":3329.025,"endTime":3335.855,"body":"offset some of these biases?"},{"startTime":3337.255,"endTime":3341.912,"body":"I think a lot of that is down to good ethics training in computer science"},{"startTime":3341.912,"endTime":3343.775,"body":"courses, uh, those sorts of things."},{"startTime":3343.835,"endTime":3349.439,"body":"Now, as ABCS accreditation assessor who's assessed an awful lot of degrees across the country"},{"startTime":3349.439,"endTime":3352.055,"body":"over the years, that's certainly not uniform."},{"startTime":3352.595,"endTime":3356.055,"body":"Um, you know what, you'll have some places where it's, it's really well done."},{"startTime":3356.395,"endTime":3359.175,"body":"You'll have some places where they go, we do ethics in year one."},{"startTime":3359.195,"endTime":3362.078,"body":"No one's really interested in it, but you guys ask for it, so you've gotta"},{"startTime":3362.078,"endTime":3362.655,"body":"do it then."},{"startTime":3362.915,"endTime":3367.961,"body":"But I think there are some more fundamental challenges in, in, in what teaching about"},{"startTime":3367.961,"endTime":3368.298,"body":"ethical IT and ethical AI is, and I, I'm involved with an engineering council group"},{"startTime":3368.298,"endTime":3378.055,"body":"at the moment that's trying to look at what AI literacy education is and similar."},{"startTime":3378.275,"endTime":3382.883,"body":"So, but I think, you know, that that particular issue has been discussed for a"},{"startTime":3382.883,"endTime":3383.805,"body":"fair while now."},{"startTime":3383.805,"endTime":3388.238,"body":"I mean, I, I'd encourage everyone to look at Kathy O'Neill's TED talk about this,"},{"startTime":3388.238,"endTime":3389.125,"body":"which was 2016."},{"startTime":3389.245,"endTime":3389.725,"body":"I know you are."},{"startTime":3389.735,"endTime":3390.285,"body":"Sorry, sir."},{"startTime":3390.365,"endTime":3392.045,"body":"I just noticed you were smiling and nodding at the back there."},{"startTime":3392.045,"endTime":3393.125,"body":"So presumably you've seen it."},{"startTime":3393.545,"endTime":3398.589,"body":"Um, it's very, very good and very sensible and, you know, talks about the fact"},{"startTime":3398.589,"endTime":3398.926,"body":"that, you know, one, one of the areas that's, that's constantly attacked as woke now"},{"startTime":3398.926,"endTime":3399.262,"body":"is that stuff like unconscious bias training, unconscious bias training in the development of IT"},{"startTime":3399.262,"endTime":3399.598,"body":"systems that, um, will then build training data that will then go on to, to"},{"startTime":3399.598,"endTime":3399.935,"body":"victimize certain parts of society is, is an interesting, but I always fall back on"},{"startTime":3399.935,"endTime":3422.805,"body":"the fact I've taught ethics to compute science students for many years."},{"startTime":3423.505,"endTime":3426.555,"body":"The first question I usually ask is, would you get on an airplane you've written"},{"startTime":3426.555,"endTime":3427.165,"body":"the software for?"},{"startTime":3427.515,"endTime":3430.765,"body":"They always say no, never had anyone say yes."},{"startTime":3431.885,"endTime":3436.885,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":3432.295,"endTime":3436.365,"body":"Which is an interesting, you know, you don't start compute science course to study ethics."},{"startTime":3436.745,"endTime":3440.15,"body":"So it's how we ground it and how we make it relatable and, and things"},{"startTime":3440.15,"endTime":3440.605,"body":"as well."},{"startTime":3440.905,"endTime":3444.205,"body":"But there's a, there's an awful lot to do in that area because it is"},{"startTime":3444.205,"endTime":3446.405,"body":"viewed as a, a minor part of computer science curriculum."},{"startTime":3446.425,"endTime":3449.005,"body":"And again, no one's learning from the history of it."},{"startTime":3449.585,"endTime":3449.805,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":3450.505,"endTime":3453.965,"body":"And on that note, one last quick fire question."},{"startTime":3454.145,"endTime":3459.085,"body":"No worries if I may, from the online audience, can AI protect anyone"},{"startTime":3461.545,"endTime":3462.645,"body":"Not on its own \u003claugh\u003e?"},{"startTime":3463.355,"endTime":3466.325,"body":"Well, it's a very broad question, isn't it?"},{"startTime":3466.345,"endTime":3470.103,"body":"It depends what you are protecting it from and the specific use case around it,"},{"startTime":3470.103,"endTime":3470.605,"body":"I guess."},{"startTime":3471.465,"endTime":3474.725,"body":"But that's what I mean about it should be seen as a useful tool."},{"startTime":3474.755,"endTime":3478.692,"body":"There's a really, I dunno if any of you listened to the leading the, a"},{"startTime":3478.692,"endTime":3480.005,"body":"Campbell, Rory short leading podcast."},{"startTime":3480.575,"endTime":3485.266,"body":"There was a really good interview with Paul Nurse who was a, an extremely well"},{"startTime":3485.266,"endTime":3485.578,"body":"known scientist, and he was asked about AI and he said, well, if you look"},{"startTime":3485.578,"endTime":3485.891,"body":"at it as a really powerful way of processing data and decision support and those"},{"startTime":3485.891,"endTime":3486.204,"body":"sorts of things, that's really good because, you know, there are things we can do"},{"startTime":3486.204,"endTime":3499.965,"body":"with that."},{"startTime":3500.225,"endTime":3504.013,"body":"If you look at it as the solution to everything and all the chat about"},{"startTime":3504.013,"endTime":3507.045,"body":"artificial general intelligence, and I've seen Terminator, when's that going to happen?"},{"startTime":3507.105,"endTime":3507.925,"body":"All those sorts of things."},{"startTime":3508.315,"endTime":3513.285,"body":"That starts to be, we should be looking at really good means of processing data,"},{"startTime":3513.285,"endTime":3517.925,"body":"really powerful means of processing data rather than going, but it's, it's artificial intelligence."},{"startTime":3517.945,"endTime":3518.765,"body":"Why can't it do that?"},{"startTime":3518.765,"endTime":3521.805,"body":"And I think in order to, can it protect anyone from anything?"},{"startTime":3521.805,"endTime":3525.271,"body":"Well, I think it would depend on the use case, but I think conceptually we"},{"startTime":3525.271,"endTime":3528.045,"body":"should be looking at it as a tool, rather as a solution."},{"startTime":3529.025,"endTime":3533.235,"body":"And on that note, we have run out of time, I'm afraid, so it only"},{"startTime":3533.235,"endTime":3537.445,"body":"remains for me to thank you very much, professor Andy, thank you for the invite."},{"startTime":3537.445,"endTime":3537.845,"body":"Thank you."}]}