{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.345,"endTime":14.708,"body":"In today's lecture, um, we're going to delve into an emotionally charged and ethically complex"},{"startTime":14.708,"endTime":17.205,"body":"legal topic of abortion."},{"startTime":19.035,"endTime":28.765,"body":"This discourse evokes strong sentiments and confronts individuals with profound moral and ethical dilemmas."},{"startTime":30.955,"endTime":38.619,"body":"It's crucial to approach this subject with the utmost respect for the diverse perspectives and"},{"startTime":38.619,"endTime":41.685,"body":"deeply held beliefs that people hold."},{"startTime":43.345,"endTime":51.922,"body":"Uh, abortion is inherently a hard-edged question, which forces us to grapple with the challenging"},{"startTime":51.922,"endTime":55.925,"body":"intersections of law, morality, and personal autonomy."},{"startTime":57.205,"endTime":61.326,"body":"Gresham College lecture that you're listening to right now is giving you knowledge and insight"},{"startTime":61.326,"endTime":61.601,"body":"from one of the world's leading academic experts making it takes a lot of time,"},{"startTime":61.601,"endTime":61.876,"body":"but because we want to encourage a love of learning, we think it's well worth"},{"startTime":61.876,"endTime":69.845,"body":"it."},{"startTime":70.705,"endTime":73.885,"body":"We never make you pay for lectures, although donations are needed."},{"startTime":74.425,"endTime":75.885,"body":"All we ask in return is this."},{"startTime":76.435,"endTime":78.725,"body":"Send a link to this lecture to someone you think would benefit."},{"startTime":79.065,"endTime":82.981,"body":"And if you haven't already, click the follow or subscribe button from wherever you are"},{"startTime":82.981,"endTime":83.765,"body":"listening right now."},{"startTime":84.825,"endTime":86.405,"body":"Now, let's get back to the lecture"},{"startTime":88.885,"endTime":97.221,"body":"And as we traverse through the historical landscape of abortion laws in the uk, examining"},{"startTime":97.221,"endTime":97.777,"body":"their impact on the Commonwealth Caribbean and drawing comparisons with global developments, we must be"},{"startTime":97.777,"endTime":110.005,"body":"mindful of the profound implications this discourse holds."},{"startTime":110.985,"endTime":118.45,"body":"The urgency of addressing the decriminalization of abortion becomes apparent, I would suggest underlying the"},{"startTime":118.45,"endTime":123.925,"body":"need for the law to confront this intricate and contentious issue."},{"startTime":126.145,"endTime":128.845,"body":"Let me start with a brief note about terminology."},{"startTime":131.065,"endTime":135.605,"body":"In this lecture, I'll be using the term pregnant women."},{"startTime":136.305,"endTime":142.382,"body":"Now, that might sound, uh, straightforward to some, but it's not straightforward to others because"},{"startTime":142.382,"endTime":142.787,"body":"I realize that this is controversial or can be controversial in some circles, and some"},{"startTime":142.787,"endTime":150.485,"body":"people might prefer pregnant people."},{"startTime":151.275,"endTime":152.045,"body":"What do I mean?"},{"startTime":153.065,"endTime":157.536,"body":"You see, the intention of this is not to raise all those who might be"},{"startTime":157.536,"endTime":159.325,"body":"able to bear and have children."},{"startTime":160.465,"endTime":167.118,"body":"And of course, I recognize that there are some trans men and non-binary people who"},{"startTime":167.118,"endTime":172.885,"body":"are able to get pregnant and who are also affected by abortion restrictions."},{"startTime":174.545,"endTime":180.123,"body":"To say this is not to diminish the obvious fact that abortion politics is heavily"},{"startTime":180.123,"endTime":180.495,"body":"gendered, but my stance is simply to accept that most people affected by abortion restrictions"},{"startTime":180.495,"endTime":186.445,"body":"are women."},{"startTime":188.105,"endTime":193.493,"body":"But I do think it's important to acknowledge that trans men and non-binary people exist"},{"startTime":193.493,"endTime":197.085,"body":"too and have a stake in the right to abortion."},{"startTime":198.475,"endTime":206.661,"body":"That said, I will be frequently quoting statutes case law and academic works, which do"},{"startTime":206.661,"endTime":208.845,"body":"refer exclusively to women"},{"startTime":214.315,"endTime":218.605,"body":"History, the history of abortion law in the uk."},{"startTime":219.585,"endTime":222.485,"body":"I'm going to give an overview of the history of abortion law in the uk."},{"startTime":223.155,"endTime":226.685,"body":"That law differs between England, wells and Scotland, Northern island."},{"startTime":228.105,"endTime":231.736,"body":"Uh, my main focus will be on the English and Welsh position, but I do"},{"startTime":231.736,"endTime":235.125,"body":"have a few things to say about the law of Scotland and northern island."},{"startTime":236.495,"endTime":243.235,"body":"There is uncertainty and controversy over how the English common law regulated abortion prior to"},{"startTime":243.235,"endTime":243.685,"body":"1803."},{"startTime":244.595,"endTime":251.325,"body":"It's clear that a common law, the point of quickening, was an important threshold."},{"startTime":252.845,"endTime":255.285,"body":"I come back in a moment to what that means."},{"startTime":256.644,"endTime":261.905,"body":"A very early text, the leisures hen Henri key preemie dating from the early 12th"},{"startTime":261.905,"endTime":262.256,"body":"century said, quote, A woman shall do penance for three years if she intentionally brings"},{"startTime":262.256,"endTime":270.325,"body":"about the loss of her embryo before 40 days."},{"startTime":271.545,"endTime":276.387,"body":"If she does this after it is quick, she shall do penance for seven years"},{"startTime":276.387,"endTime":278.325,"body":"as if she was a murderous."},{"startTime":279.145,"endTime":279.765,"body":"End of quote."},{"startTime":280.915,"endTime":288.628,"body":"This passage would appear to be concerned with the penance of Ecclesia ecclesiastical law rather"},{"startTime":288.628,"endTime":290.685,"body":"than temporal criminal penalties."},{"startTime":292.225,"endTime":297.715,"body":"In the 13th century, Henry de Bracken wrote in his famous treaties on, on laws"},{"startTime":297.715,"endTime":298.081,"body":"and customs of England, if one strikes a pregnant woman or gives her poison in"},{"startTime":298.081,"endTime":298.447,"body":"order to procure abortion, if the fetus is already formed or quickened, especially if it"},{"startTime":298.447,"endTime":310.525,"body":"is quickened, he commits homicide."},{"startTime":314.955,"endTime":320.673,"body":"As Neil Jones writes, in the 17th century, the common law tide began to turn"},{"startTime":320.673,"endTime":321.055,"body":"against the view that abortion was a felony, rather, by then it was viewed as"},{"startTime":321.055,"endTime":327.155,"body":"a misdemeanor."},{"startTime":328.255,"endTime":333.78,"body":"Edward co Koch's Institutes of Law Laws of England said, quote, if a woman be"},{"startTime":333.78,"endTime":334.148,"body":"quick with child and by a potion or otherwise kill, if in her womb or"},{"startTime":334.148,"endTime":334.516,"body":"if a man beat her whereby the child die in her body and she's delivered"},{"startTime":334.516,"endTime":350.355,"body":"of a dead child, this is a gr great, uh, miss prison and no murder."},{"startTime":350.935,"endTime":358.01,"body":"But if the child be born alive and die of the potion battery or other"},{"startTime":358.01,"endTime":358.482,"body":"cause, this is murder for in-law, it is accounted a reasonable creature in rerun Tria"},{"startTime":358.482,"endTime":367.445,"body":"when it is born alive."},{"startTime":369.595,"endTime":375.579,"body":"William Blackstone said in his 1765 Commentaries of Law of England, quote, life is the"},{"startTime":375.579,"endTime":375.978,"body":"immediate gift of God, a right inherent by nature or in every individual, and begins"},{"startTime":375.978,"endTime":376.377,"body":"in the contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in"},{"startTime":376.377,"endTime":388.745,"body":"the mother's womb."},{"startTime":389.805,"endTime":394.366,"body":"For if a woman is quick with child and by a potion or otherwise kill,"},{"startTime":394.366,"endTime":394.67,"body":"if in her womb or if anyone beat her, whereby the child die of in"},{"startTime":394.67,"endTime":401.665,"body":"her body and she's delivered of a dead child."},{"startTime":401.815,"endTime":408.807,"body":"This though not murder was by the, uh, antit law, homicide law, uh, manslaughter, but"},{"startTime":408.807,"endTime":409.273,"body":"at present, it is not looked upon in quite so atrocious, alight that it remains"},{"startTime":409.273,"endTime":417.665,"body":"a very heinous misdemeanor."},{"startTime":419.485,"endTime":426.853,"body":"So in early modern England, abortion was a crime after quickening, although probably not a"},{"startTime":426.853,"endTime":427.345,"body":"felony."},{"startTime":427.815,"endTime":435.879,"body":"However, there was a debate between about when quickening occurred as well as how the"},{"startTime":435.879,"endTime":439.105,"body":"common law viewed abortion before quickening."},{"startTime":444.735,"endTime":448.785,"body":"Here in England, wells, that debate is largely only of historical interest."},{"startTime":449.255,"endTime":456.173,"body":"However, in the United States, the state of the pre 1803 English common law has"},{"startTime":456.173,"endTime":456.634,"body":"become the subject of intense political modern controversy because of its role played in the"},{"startTime":456.634,"endTime":457.095,"body":"modern US constitutional jurisprudence in Roe versus Wade, the well-known case in which the, uh,"},{"startTime":457.095,"endTime":475.545,"body":"US Supreme Court found that there was a constitutional right to abortion."},{"startTime":476.485,"endTime":484.81,"body":"Mr. Justice, uh, black mum wrote, it is un it is undisputed that at common"},{"startTime":484.81,"endTime":487.585,"body":"law abortion performed before quickening."},{"startTime":488.165,"endTime":495.041,"body":"The first recognizable movement of the fetus in neutral appearing usually from the 16th to"},{"startTime":495.041,"endTime":499.625,"body":"the 18th week of pregnancy was not an indict offense."},{"startTime":501.055,"endTime":505.865,"body":"However, opponents of abortion have since counterattacked on this issue."},{"startTime":506.895,"endTime":513.364,"body":"They have, for example, cited the 1838 English case of Crown Against Witchery Witch Lee,"},{"startTime":513.364,"endTime":513.795,"body":"forgive me, which may suggest that quick did not mean the same thing in every"},{"startTime":513.795,"endTime":520.265,"body":"context."},{"startTime":521.745,"endTime":527.769,"body":"A woman was convicted of murder and the question arose whether she was excused from"},{"startTime":527.769,"endTime":531.785,"body":"being executed because she was pregnant or quick with child."},{"startTime":532.805,"endTime":534.945,"body":"The law report records that Mr."},{"startTime":535.335,"endTime":540.805,"body":"Baron Gurney said, quick with child is having conceived"},{"startTime":542.275,"endTime":547.845,"body":"With quick child is when the child has quickened."},{"startTime":548.625,"endTime":550.805,"body":"Do you understand the distinction?"},{"startTime":551.005,"endTime":557.879,"body":"I make end quote in a ne micas brief submitted by the conservative legal scholars,"},{"startTime":557.879,"endTime":558.337,"body":"John Finnis and Robert George in the recent case of Dobbs against Jackson's women Dobbs"},{"startTime":558.337,"endTime":567.045,"body":"against Jackson's Women health organization."},{"startTime":567.985,"endTime":573.376,"body":"The authors argued this, that a fetus would have to be viewed as quick from"},{"startTime":573.376,"endTime":573.735,"body":"the sixth week of pregnancy and not from the time that the pregnant woman felt"},{"startTime":573.735,"endTime":580.205,"body":"movement in their womb."},{"startTime":581.385,"endTime":587.722,"body":"In contrast, and the micas brief in the same case by the American Historical Association"},{"startTime":587.722,"endTime":588.145,"body":"Organization of American Historians supports the view that roe in Roe that quickening was the"},{"startTime":588.145,"endTime":598.285,"body":"point at which the pregnant woman felt the fetus move."},{"startTime":600.195,"endTime":605.407,"body":"This debate was alluded to by Mr. Justice Alito in the footnote, in the opinion"},{"startTime":605.407,"endTime":609.925,"body":"of the court, but he did not find it necessary to resolve it."},{"startTime":610.945,"endTime":617.845,"body":"Mr. Justice Alito also referred a approvingly to the work of Joseph Della Pena."},{"startTime":618.495,"endTime":627.238,"body":"Della Pena's work has, however, come into robust scholarly criticism from Carla Spy who states"},{"startTime":627.238,"endTime":627.821,"body":"that Della Pena quote distorts the evidence to press an ab evolutionist position about legal"},{"startTime":627.821,"endTime":636.565,"body":"history."},{"startTime":639.075,"endTime":644.405,"body":"Another complicating factor is the relationship between the common law and Eccles ecclesiastical law."},{"startTime":645.385,"endTime":656.135,"body":"As we've seen the Legis Henrique addresses abortion in the context of penance rather than"},{"startTime":656.135,"endTime":658.285,"body":"temporal criminal penalties."},{"startTime":659.135,"endTime":669.25,"body":"Commenting on the Dobbs judgment, RH helm Holts argues that abortion in medieval times was"},{"startTime":669.25,"endTime":669.925,"body":"principally"},{"startTime":671.755,"endTime":680.341,"body":"Concerned with Iisa Casal law and within the jurisdictions of those courts, and that the"},{"startTime":680.341,"endTime":680.913,"body":"ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the subject lasted well into the 16th century, whereas the jurisdictional history"},{"startTime":680.913,"endTime":690.645,"body":"becomes more tangled."},{"startTime":695.585,"endTime":700.165,"body":"Now, I don't propose to attempt to resolve the historical controversies."},{"startTime":701.155,"endTime":704.965,"body":"Instead, I will move on to 1803."},{"startTime":704.965,"endTime":711.401,"body":"When the English law against abortion was put on the statutory footing by Lord Ellen"},{"startTime":711.401,"endTime":714.405,"body":"Barr's acts, the act was very severe."},{"startTime":715.625,"endTime":721.55,"body":"It made it a capital offense to cause and procure the miscarriage of any woman,"},{"startTime":721.55,"endTime":723.525,"body":"then being quick with child."},{"startTime":724.425,"endTime":734.713,"body":"It also criminalized abortion before quickening, which made it punishable with fines, imprisonment, the pilly"},{"startTime":734.713,"endTime":739.515,"body":"whipping or transportation, but not with death."},{"startTime":740.785,"endTime":746.813,"body":"According to Dickens and Cook, it was not clear whether a pregnant woman performing an"},{"startTime":746.813,"endTime":751.235,"body":"abortion on themselves or on herself was criminalized by this act."},{"startTime":752.575,"endTime":759.117,"body":"The 1803 Act was superseded by Lord LANs Down's Act of 1828, which in turn"},{"startTime":759.117,"endTime":763.915,"body":"was superseded by the offenses against the person's act of 1837."},{"startTime":764.695,"endTime":771.4,"body":"The latter abolished the death penalty for abortion and also abolished the distinction between pre"},{"startTime":771.4,"endTime":773.635,"body":"quickening and post quickening abortions."},{"startTime":775.395,"endTime":781.92,"body":"The next major statute enacted was Section 58 of Defenses against the Person's Act 1861,"},{"startTime":781.92,"endTime":784.095,"body":"which is still enforced today."},{"startTime":784.675,"endTime":791.531,"body":"The section provided in relevant part quote, every woman being with child who with the"},{"startTime":791.531,"endTime":791.988,"body":"intent to procure her own miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other"},{"startTime":791.988,"endTime":792.445,"body":"noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like"},{"startTime":792.445,"endTime":806.615,"body":"intent and whoever."},{"startTime":806.755,"endTime":813.305,"body":"So with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or not"},{"startTime":813.305,"endTime":813.742,"body":"be with child, shall unlawfully administer to hurt or cause to be taken by any"},{"startTime":813.742,"endTime":814.179,"body":"poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever"},{"startTime":814.179,"endTime":830.775,"body":"with the like intent shall be guilty of a felony."},{"startTime":837.055,"endTime":842.974,"body":"An important caveat here is the word unlawfully, which left open the possibility of a"},{"startTime":842.974,"endTime":847.315,"body":"defense that there was such a thing as a lawful abortion."},{"startTime":848.495,"endTime":857.915,"body":"The case of Crown against Bourne in 1939 established that such a defense existed inborn."},{"startTime":858.335,"endTime":865.395,"body":"An obs obstetric surgeon was indicted for performing an abortion on a 14-year-old girl."},{"startTime":866.505,"endTime":871.53,"body":"According to the law report, she had been raped with great violence and had become"},{"startTime":871.53,"endTime":873.875,"body":"pregnant as a result of the rape."},{"startTime":875.055,"endTime":881.641,"body":"Mr. Justice McNaughton relied on by analogy on the separate offenses, a separate offense of"},{"startTime":881.641,"endTime":882.08,"body":"child destruction under the Infant Life Preservation Act of 1820 of 1929, which provided a"},{"startTime":882.08,"endTime":882.52,"body":"defense where the relevant act was done in good faith for the purpose only of"},{"startTime":882.52,"endTime":900.085,"body":"preserving the life of another and preserving the life of the mother."},{"startTime":900.305,"endTime":905.351,"body":"He accepted that the 1929 Act did not apply directly, but he said that the"},{"startTime":905.351,"endTime":905.687,"body":"proviso that it is necessary for the crown to prove that the act was not"},{"startTime":905.687,"endTime":906.024,"body":"done in good faith for the purpose of only preserving the life of the mother,"},{"startTime":906.024,"endTime":906.36,"body":"is in accordance with what has always been the common law of England with regard"},{"startTime":906.36,"endTime":922.845,"body":"to the killing of an unborn child."},{"startTime":925.505,"endTime":931.55,"body":"He went on to take a relatively expansive interpretation of what is meant by preserving"},{"startTime":931.55,"endTime":933.565,"body":"the life of the mother."},{"startTime":933.985,"endTime":935.085,"body":"He said, quote,"},{"startTime":937.445,"endTime":941.23,"body":"It is not contended that those in the words mean merely for the purpose of"},{"startTime":941.23,"endTime":942.745,"body":"saving the mother from instant death."},{"startTime":943.515,"endTime":948.832,"body":"There are cases we are told where it's reasonable reasonably certain that a pregnant woman"},{"startTime":948.832,"endTime":949.187,"body":"will not be able to to deliver the child which is in her womb and"},{"startTime":949.187,"endTime":949.541,"body":"survive in such a case where the doctor anticipates basing his opinion upon the experience"},{"startTime":949.541,"endTime":964.785,"body":"of the profession that the child cannot be delivered without the death of the mother."},{"startTime":965.645,"endTime":969.305,"body":"It is obvious that the sooner the operation is performed, the better."},{"startTime":970.165,"endTime":974.886,"body":"The law does not require the doctor to wait until the unfortunate woman is in"},{"startTime":974.886,"endTime":976.145,"body":"peril of immediate death."},{"startTime":977.125,"endTime":982.705,"body":"In such a case he's not only entitled, but it is his duty to perform"},{"startTime":982.705,"endTime":986.425,"body":"the operation with a view to save in her life."},{"startTime":987.765,"endTime":993.641,"body":"As I've said, I think those words ought to be construed in a reasonable sense,"},{"startTime":993.641,"endTime":994.033,"body":"and if the doctor is of the opinion on reasonable grounds and with adequate knowledge"},{"startTime":994.033,"endTime":994.425,"body":"that the probable consequence of the continuance of the pregnancy will be to make the"},{"startTime":994.425,"endTime":994.816,"body":"woman a physical or mental wreck, the jury are quite entitled to take the view"},{"startTime":994.816,"endTime":995.208,"body":"that the doctor who under those circumstances and in that honest belief operates, is operating"},{"startTime":995.208,"endTime":1021.065,"body":"for the purposes of preserving the life of the mother."},{"startTime":1025.045,"endTime":1033.169,"body":"The born case was the lead in authority in England and wells on the construction"},{"startTime":1033.169,"endTime":1038.585,"body":"of Section 58 offense until 1967 elsewhere in the Commonwealth."},{"startTime":1038.845,"endTime":1042.865,"body":"It continues to be relevant today, as we will see."},{"startTime":1048.855,"endTime":1050.455,"body":"I need to say a little bit about Scotland."},{"startTime":1052.355,"endTime":1059.394,"body":"The 1861 Act never applied to Scotland and up until the 1967 abortion up until"},{"startTime":1059.394,"endTime":1065.495,"body":"1967, forgive me, abortion in Scotland was a wholly a common law matter."},{"startTime":1066.315,"endTime":1074.533,"body":"The Scottish legal scholar, Jonathan Brown, writes that prior to 1967, Scot's law recognized the"},{"startTime":1074.533,"endTime":1076.725,"body":"legitimacy of therapeutic termination."},{"startTime":1077.765,"endTime":1083.246,"body":"Abortion was treated primarily as a medical matter and the dearth of Scottish case law"},{"startTime":1083.246,"endTime":1083.611,"body":"concerned an abortion may be attributed to the fact that the legal profession was reluctant"},{"startTime":1083.611,"endTime":1091.285,"body":"to interfere with decisions made by doctors."},{"startTime":1093.695,"endTime":1100.745,"body":"Brown cites the case of, uh, her majesty's advocate against Graham in 1897, which holds"},{"startTime":1100.745,"endTime":1107.325,"body":"that the abortion must have been carried out wickedly and felonious to be criminal."},{"startTime":1108.105,"endTime":1112.952,"body":"He states that there was only one case in the Scottish in which a Scottish"},{"startTime":1112.952,"endTime":1114.245,"body":"medical practitioner was prosecuted."},{"startTime":1115.025,"endTime":1122.117,"body":"The case was, uh, crown against advocate against Ross, in which the central issue was"},{"startTime":1122.117,"endTime":1126.845,"body":"the fact that the termination occurred in the patient's home."},{"startTime":1127.865,"endTime":1130.805,"body":"In the absence of professional medical guidance."},{"startTime":1131.905,"endTime":1137.345,"body":"He further notes that Dr. Ross pleaded guilty and the case did not therefore establish"},{"startTime":1137.345,"endTime":1139.885,"body":"any precedence that Ross's actions were criminal."},{"startTime":1143.225,"endTime":1151.285,"body":"The pre 1967 abortion law of Scotland was therefore in Browns word, far from clear."},{"startTime":1152.645,"endTime":1156.995,"body":"Although abortion was a crime known to law, it appears that there were, there were"},{"startTime":1156.995,"endTime":1159.605,"body":"circumstances in which abortion could lawfully be carried out."},{"startTime":1166.985,"endTime":1173.598,"body":"The next major development was the abortion Act of 1967, which continues to be the"},{"startTime":1173.598,"endTime":1177.125,"body":"governing law today in England, Scotland, and Wales."},{"startTime":1177.945,"endTime":1179.965,"body":"It does not extend to Northern Ireland."},{"startTime":1181.105,"endTime":1188.521,"body":"The 67 Act did not repeal section 58 of the 1861 Act, but provided an"},{"startTime":1188.521,"endTime":1189.015,"body":"exception to it under the act as originally enacted, an abortion could be performed, it"},{"startTime":1189.015,"endTime":1202.365,"body":"could be performed by doctor up to the 28th week of the pregnancy."},{"startTime":1203.265,"endTime":1209.815,"body":"If two doctors form the opinion that risk to the life of the pregnant woman"},{"startTime":1209.815,"endTime":1210.251,"body":"or of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any"},{"startTime":1210.251,"endTime":1221.605,"body":"existing children of her family, greater than if the pregnancy was terminated."},{"startTime":1224.505,"endTime":1229.522,"body":"I'm using the word pregnant woman here because that's the language of the act, but"},{"startTime":1229.522,"endTime":1234.205,"body":"the act also applies to trans men and non-binary people who are also pregnant."},{"startTime":1235.725,"endTime":1242.338,"body":"It also allowed abortion at any stage of the pregnancy where two doctors form the"},{"startTime":1242.338,"endTime":1242.779,"body":"opinion that quote, there is a substantial risk that if the child were born, it"},{"startTime":1242.779,"endTime":1254.685,"body":"would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped."},{"startTime":1255.225,"endTime":1263.645,"body":"End of quote, the human fertilization and embryology act of 1990 amended the act significantly."},{"startTime":1265.245,"endTime":1271.513,"body":"Abortion was now allowed up to the 24th week, not the 28th, where the continuance"},{"startTime":1271.513,"endTime":1271.93,"body":"of the pregnancy would involve risk greater than if the pregnancy were terminated of injury"},{"startTime":1271.93,"endTime":1272.348,"body":"to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of"},{"startTime":1272.348,"endTime":1284.885,"body":"the family."},{"startTime":1286.665,"endTime":1292.855,"body":"It was legalized, legalized at any stage of pregnancy where quote, the termination is necessary"},{"startTime":1292.855,"endTime":1293.268,"body":"to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman,"},{"startTime":1293.268,"endTime":1293.681,"body":"or where the continuance of the pregnancy would involve a risk to the life of"},{"startTime":1293.681,"endTime":1309.365,"body":"the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated."},{"startTime":1311.245,"endTime":1317.425,"body":"It remained the case that the opinion of two doctors was required pause in there."},{"startTime":1319.345,"endTime":1325.855,"body":"Although there are relatively liberal grounds for abortion, they fall a very long way short"},{"startTime":1325.855,"endTime":1328.025,"body":"of permitting abortion on demand."},{"startTime":1329.205,"endTime":1334.92,"body":"It remains doctors not the pregnant woman who are the primary decision makers as to"},{"startTime":1334.92,"endTime":1336.825,"body":"whether the criteria are met."},{"startTime":1337.685,"endTime":1345.699,"body":"As Fran Amery states quote, abortion is still governed, albeit by the medical profession rather"},{"startTime":1345.699,"endTime":1348.905,"body":"than directly controlled by the state."},{"startTime":1349.885,"endTime":1350.545,"body":"End of quote."},{"startTime":1351.375,"endTime":1357.532,"body":"This is therefore entirely possible for a pregnant woman to be denied an abortion under"},{"startTime":1357.532,"endTime":1357.943,"body":"the 1967 Act, in particular where they've missed a 24 week deadline and don't meet"},{"startTime":1357.943,"endTime":1367.385,"body":"the more restrictive criteria for abortion after the deadline."},{"startTime":1368.795,"endTime":1376.305,"body":"Those pregnant who perform illegal abortions on themselves can be and sometimes are prosecuted."},{"startTime":1377.375,"endTime":1385.862,"body":"According to Zoe Williams writing in The Guardian, there were only three prosecutions in Great"},{"startTime":1385.862,"endTime":1390.955,"body":"Britain for illegal abortions between 1861 and November, 2022."},{"startTime":1392.775,"endTime":1400.795,"body":"But since December 20, 22, 6, women have been charged for illegal abortions."},{"startTime":1402.825,"endTime":1411.336,"body":"In June, 2023, Carla Foster was sentenced 24 months in prison, reduced on appeal to"},{"startTime":1411.336,"endTime":1411.903,"body":"a suspended sentence of 40 months for self-administering mifa pre stone when she was over"},{"startTime":1411.903,"endTime":1422.685,"body":"the 24, uh, week limit."},{"startTime":1425.065,"endTime":1431.002,"body":"As an aside, given that the 1861 act does not apply in Scotland, the question"},{"startTime":1431.002,"endTime":1431.398,"body":"might be thought to arise as to whether the Scottish common law defense to which"},{"startTime":1431.398,"endTime":1431.794,"body":"I refer to earlier, has survived such that abortion might be lawful in Scotland even"},{"startTime":1431.794,"endTime":1446.045,"body":"where it's not authorized By the 1967 Act."},{"startTime":1447.075,"endTime":1454.12,"body":"However, the in-House of Court obsession in Dugan against Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Health"},{"startTime":1454.12,"endTime":1454.59,"body":"Board in 2013 held that there was no such residual ability at common law to"},{"startTime":1454.59,"endTime":1463.045,"body":"carry out an abortion."},{"startTime":1463.785,"endTime":1469.728,"body":"The case went on appeal to the Supreme Court in 2015, but not on this"},{"startTime":1469.728,"endTime":1470.125,"body":"point."},{"startTime":1474.805,"endTime":1475.955,"body":"Let's turn to Northern Ireland."},{"startTime":1478.535,"endTime":1481.595,"body":"The 67 Act was never extended to Northern Island."},{"startTime":1482.515,"endTime":1489.768,"body":"Abortion remained generally illegal in Northern Ireland until recently in re Northern Island Human Rights"},{"startTime":1489.768,"endTime":1490.251,"body":"Commission application for judicial review in 2018, the Supreme Court was deeply divided on the"},{"startTime":1490.251,"endTime":1504.275,"body":"challenge brought by the Northern Northern Island Human Rights Commission on Northern Island's abortion laws."},{"startTime":1505.015,"endTime":1509.075,"body":"The majority held that the commission had no standing to bring the challenge."},{"startTime":1509.705,"endTime":1513.675,"body":"However, all the justices expressed their views on the merits anyway."},{"startTime":1514.355,"endTime":1521.394,"body":"A majority held that the prohibition on abortion in cases of a fatal fetal abnormality"},{"startTime":1521.394,"endTime":1521.863,"body":"and rape or incest breached Article eight of the Human European Convention on Human Rights,"},{"startTime":1521.863,"endTime":1533.595,"body":"the right to private and family life, two justices went further."},{"startTime":1535.505,"endTime":1542.061,"body":"They said that they would have to, they would've found it incompatible with Article three,"},{"startTime":1542.061,"endTime":1545.995,"body":"the prohibition on in-human and degrading treatment as well."},{"startTime":1547.065,"endTime":1551.315,"body":"Another two justices found no breaches of Article three or Article eight."},{"startTime":1552.725,"endTime":1560.255,"body":"Parliament has since stepped in the Northern Island Executive Formation Act 2019 repealed sections 58"},{"startTime":1560.255,"endTime":1560.757,"body":"and 59 of the 1861 Act under the law of Northern Island with retrospective effect"},{"startTime":1560.757,"endTime":1561.259,"body":"regulations were subsequently made in 2020 and approved by both HAR Houses in Parliament, which"},{"startTime":1561.259,"endTime":1561.761,"body":"provide for a new legal regime regulating abortion in Northern Ireland, which is significantly different"},{"startTime":1561.761,"endTime":1585.355,"body":"than in England and Wells."},{"startTime":1588.935,"endTime":1591.795,"body":"So that's the UK's position in a nutshell."},{"startTime":1592.505,"endTime":1594.715,"body":"What about the Commonwealth Caribbean?"},{"startTime":1596.945,"endTime":1602.978,"body":"Well, as you know, I, I touched upon the Common Commonwealth Caribbean in many areas"},{"startTime":1602.978,"endTime":1607.805,"body":"over the course of my lectures and in the case of abortion."},{"startTime":1607.835,"endTime":1608.965,"body":"It's just as interesting."},{"startTime":1608.965,"endTime":1615.199,"body":"The short answer is, is that it varies widely in some Commonwealth Caribbean jurisdiction such"},{"startTime":1615.199,"endTime":1615.614,"body":"as anti and Barbuda, where I practice, as well as in Jamaica and Trinidad and"},{"startTime":1615.614,"endTime":1626.005,"body":"Tobago, the relevant law is copied from the English 1861 Act."},{"startTime":1626.985,"endTime":1634.263,"body":"The law in these jurisdictions is therefore that which applied in England prior to 1967,"},{"startTime":1634.263,"endTime":1636.205,"body":"including the born judgment."},{"startTime":1637.615,"endTime":1644.485,"body":"Conversely, some other jurisdictions have enacted legislation that has significantly liberalized their abortion laws."},{"startTime":1645.475,"endTime":1652.493,"body":"This includes the medical Termination of Pregnancy Act 1983 in Barbados and the Medical Termination"},{"startTime":1652.493,"endTime":1654.365,"body":"of Pregnancy Act 1995."},{"startTime":1654.665,"endTime":1655.365,"body":"In Guyana."},{"startTime":1656.955,"endTime":1663.293,"body":"Time today doesn't permit an exhaustive survey of these laws, but one can see therefore"},{"startTime":1663.293,"endTime":1668.365,"body":"that the British and Commonwealth approach to abortion law is not uniform."},{"startTime":1669.115,"endTime":1676.796,"body":"However, the general approach has to be to criminalize abortion, but to carve out exceptions"},{"startTime":1676.796,"endTime":1683.965,"body":"to that criminalization and the extent of those exceptions vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction."},{"startTime":1689.175,"endTime":1698.308,"body":"The international context, these developments have happened against a backdrop of a highly contentious international"},{"startTime":1698.308,"endTime":1700.135,"body":"debate on abortion."},{"startTime":1701.115,"endTime":1708.129,"body":"Recent years have seen the liberalization of abortion laws in some jurisdictions and a tightening"},{"startTime":1708.129,"endTime":1710.935,"body":"of restriction in restrictions in others."},{"startTime":1713.335,"endTime":1722.763,"body":"A September, 2023 paper by Cardnis Singh and Harin and Zinsky highlights the development of"},{"startTime":1722.763,"endTime":1726.535,"body":"international human rights law around abortion."},{"startTime":1728.045,"endTime":1735.29,"body":"They highlight that in 1999, the Committee for the Elimination of Discrimination against Women or"},{"startTime":1735.29,"endTime":1742.535,"body":"CDO r committee published its general Recommendation 24, which called for the decriminalization of abortion."},{"startTime":1743.875,"endTime":1752.11,"body":"In 2003, the African Union enshrined the right to abortion in certain circumstances in the"},{"startTime":1752.11,"endTime":1752.66,"body":"MTO protocol, the UN Human Rights Committee in KL against Peru, communication number 1153 of"},{"startTime":1752.66,"endTime":1753.209,"body":"2003 found that the denial of abortion to a teenage girl, uh, carrying a a,"},{"startTime":1753.209,"endTime":1753.758,"body":"a severely disabled fetus had violated her rights under international covenant, on human, uh, on"},{"startTime":1753.758,"endTime":1779.015,"body":"civil and political rights."},{"startTime":1779.375,"endTime":1785.845,"body":"Specifically Article seven, the prohibition of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment."},{"startTime":1786.195,"endTime":1794.289,"body":"Article 17, the Right to Privacy, article 24, the Right to Children to Special Protection"},{"startTime":1794.289,"endTime":1800.765,"body":"and Article two, the Right to Illegal Remedy subsequently Melet Against Ireland."},{"startTime":1802.505,"endTime":1809.226,"body":"In, uh, 2016, the committee found that a woman in the Republic violin carrying a"},{"startTime":1809.226,"endTime":1809.675,"body":"non-viable fetus who had had to travel abroad for an abortion, suffered cruel, inhuman and"},{"startTime":1809.675,"endTime":1816.845,"body":"degrading treatment."},{"startTime":1817.125,"endTime":1825.389,"body":"Contrary to Article seven of the Covenant, her rights under Article 17, the Right to"},{"startTime":1825.389,"endTime":1825.94,"body":"Privacy and Article 26, the prohibition on of discrimination had been violated for context since"},{"startTime":1825.94,"endTime":1834.205,"body":"1983."},{"startTime":1834.825,"endTime":1841.936,"body":"The eighth amendment to the Irish Constitution enshrined a general prohibition on abortion in Irish"},{"startTime":1841.936,"endTime":1842.885,"body":"constitutional law."},{"startTime":1843.865,"endTime":1850.481,"body":"The committee reached a similar view in other, in another Irish abortion case, Whelan Against"},{"startTime":1850.481,"endTime":1851.805,"body":"Ireland in 2017."},{"startTime":1854.525,"endTime":1861.737,"body":"In contrast, the European Court of Human Rights had taken a more restrained view in"},{"startTime":1861.737,"endTime":1866.065,"body":"an earlier case, A, B, and C against Ireland."},{"startTime":1867.325,"endTime":1868.585,"body":"In 2011."},{"startTime":1869.255,"endTime":1874.063,"body":"That was a case bought by three Irish women who had to travel abroad for"},{"startTime":1874.063,"endTime":1874.705,"body":"their abortions."},{"startTime":1875.615,"endTime":1883.748,"body":"They claimed that under Article two of the European Convention on Human Rights, the right"},{"startTime":1883.748,"endTime":1884.291,"body":"to life and Article three, prohibition against inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment were held"},{"startTime":1884.291,"endTime":1892.425,"body":"inadmissible."},{"startTime":1893.125,"endTime":1897.336,"body":"The court found that there was no violation of Article eight, the right to private"},{"startTime":1897.336,"endTime":1900.425,"body":"and family life in relation to the first and second applicants."},{"startTime":1900.495,"endTime":1906.093,"body":"However, it did find, uh, such a violation in relation to the third applicant who"},{"startTime":1906.093,"endTime":1909.825,"body":"had a rare form of cancer and had undergone chemotherapy."},{"startTime":1911.135,"endTime":1917.101,"body":"This was on the ground that there was no accessible and effective procedure by which"},{"startTime":1917.101,"endTime":1917.498,"body":"she could have established whether she qualified for a lawful abortion in Ireland under Irish"},{"startTime":1917.498,"endTime":1923.465,"body":"law."},{"startTime":1923.465,"endTime":1929.5,"body":"As it then stood, this case led to the enactment of the Protection of Life"},{"startTime":1929.5,"endTime":1929.902,"body":"during Pregnancy Act 2013, which set out a legal framework for when people would qualify"},{"startTime":1929.902,"endTime":1937.145,"body":"for abortion in Ireland."},{"startTime":1938.255,"endTime":1945.46,"body":"Finally, in 2018, after the melet and Wheland decisions, the Irish electorate voted to repeal"},{"startTime":1945.46,"endTime":1950.745,"body":"the eighth Amendment to the Constitution passed, passing the 36th Amendment."},{"startTime":1955.035,"endTime":1956.585,"body":"Let's travel to Canada."},{"startTime":1958.045,"endTime":1965.732,"body":"The criminal law has effectively imposed no restrictions on abortion since the judgment of Mor"},{"startTime":1965.732,"endTime":1966.245,"body":"Morgan Tallah in 1988, which struck down the provisions of the criminal code governing abortion"},{"startTime":1966.245,"endTime":1974.445,"body":"as unconstitutional."},{"startTime":1975.695,"endTime":1985.173,"body":"Conversely, the United States has recently seen highly controversial changes in the opposite direction in"},{"startTime":1985.173,"endTime":1988.965,"body":"Dobbs against Jackson's Women's Health Organization."},{"startTime":1989.025,"endTime":1995.693,"body":"The US Supreme Court overruled its own judgment in Roe against Wade and held that"},{"startTime":1995.693,"endTime":1998.805,"body":"there was no constitutional right to abortion."},{"startTime":1999.975,"endTime":2002.845,"body":"Dobbs did not impose a national abortion ban."},{"startTime":2003.465,"endTime":2009.736,"body":"Rather, it left it up to state legislatures to decide whether or not abortion should"},{"startTime":2009.736,"endTime":2012.245,"body":"be legal in their respective states."},{"startTime":2015.815,"endTime":2021.881,"body":"Ottley and Fletcher writing in the medical law review have reviewed the consequences of Dobbs"},{"startTime":2021.881,"endTime":2023.095,"body":"one year on."},{"startTime":2024.165,"endTime":2032.572,"body":"They highlight that following Dobbs, the landscape of abortion access across 50 states has become"},{"startTime":2032.572,"endTime":2035.935,"body":"disparate and reflective of state-based preferences."},{"startTime":2036.955,"endTime":2042.367,"body":"So whether a pregnant woman can access abortion in the United States is now postcode"},{"startTime":2042.367,"endTime":2045.975,"body":"lottery depending on which state they happen to live in."},{"startTime":2046.885,"endTime":2054.088,"body":"This of course, disadvantages, poorer people who are less likely to be able to travel"},{"startTime":2054.088,"endTime":2054.568,"body":"to another state to access abortion for that matter, even before Dobbs, there was already"},{"startTime":2054.568,"endTime":2055.048,"body":"a significant practical, practical restrictions on abortion access in some states, which were permissible under"},{"startTime":2055.048,"endTime":2070.895,"body":"the pre DOB case law."},{"startTime":2071.715,"endTime":2080.335,"body":"As Leslie Regan states, these included quote, mandatory 24 to 72 hour long waiting periods,"},{"startTime":2080.335,"endTime":2080.909,"body":"parental notification requirements for people under 18, false reading of false scripts about the dangers"},{"startTime":2080.909,"endTime":2097.575,"body":"of abortion to patients in advance of the procedure, vaginal ultrasounds and state-mandated sexual assaults."},{"startTime":2101.315,"endTime":2109.57,"body":"We have seen that Mr. Justice Alitos lead in judgment in Dobbs drew heavily on"},{"startTime":2109.57,"endTime":2116.175,"body":"English and early American legal history, but that history is contested terrain."},{"startTime":2117.635,"endTime":2133.656,"body":"Leslie Regan states that the majority opinion gets the history egregiously wrong reform of abortion"},{"startTime":2133.656,"endTime":2134.725,"body":"law."},{"startTime":2136.225,"endTime":2142.487,"body":"So having looked at the present state of abortion law, we're now going to consider"},{"startTime":2142.487,"endTime":2144.575,"body":"how it could be reformed."},{"startTime":2145.475,"endTime":2152.431,"body":"Now, time does not permit me to do justice to the moral philosophical debate around"},{"startTime":2152.431,"endTime":2152.895,"body":"abortion,"},{"startTime":2154.615,"endTime":2157.475,"body":"But I'll attempt to sum up my position briefly."},{"startTime":2158.745,"endTime":2164.352,"body":"Generally, the classic argument about abortion is simply that a fetus is a human life"},{"startTime":2164.352,"endTime":2168.465,"body":"and that it is wrong to take an innocent human life."},{"startTime":2169.525,"endTime":2171.745,"body":"As many opponents of abortion are religious."},{"startTime":2172.375,"endTime":2176.869,"body":"This is often coupled with the idea that a fetus has a human soul and"},{"startTime":2176.869,"endTime":2179.865,"body":"from the moment, and that's from the moment of conception."},{"startTime":2180.515,"endTime":2187.685,"body":"Conversely, from a secular perspective, many people would argue that an embryo or fetus in"},{"startTime":2187.685,"endTime":2192.465,"body":"the early stages of development cannot meaningfully be called persons."},{"startTime":2193.405,"endTime":2201.645,"body":"And this naturally leads to that thorny debate about when a person becomes a person"},{"startTime":2201.645,"endTime":2202.194,"body":"at conception, at birth, at some point in between and invites the drawing of arbitrary"},{"startTime":2202.194,"endTime":2210.435,"body":"lines."},{"startTime":2212.615,"endTime":2218.165,"body":"But the main argument made in practice by most proponents of abortion is simply based"},{"startTime":2218.165,"endTime":2219.275,"body":"on bodily autonomy."},{"startTime":2220.465,"endTime":2227.257,"body":"They say that even if a fetus is a person, the pregnant woman has an"},{"startTime":2227.257,"endTime":2227.71,"body":"absolute right to decide what happens to her own body and therefore not obliged to"},{"startTime":2227.71,"endTime":2236.315,"body":"carry the fetus to term."},{"startTime":2239.505,"endTime":2246.645,"body":"The most powerful expression of this argument is in Judith Thomas Thompson's famous violinist."},{"startTime":2246.675,"endTime":2247.165,"body":"Example."},{"startTime":2248.865,"endTime":2257.645,"body":"I'm going to quote it, quote, I propose then that we grant the fetus"},{"startTime":2262.105,"endTime":2264.405,"body":"Is a person from the moment of conception."},{"startTime":2266.105,"endTime":2268.085,"body":"How does the argument go from there?"},{"startTime":2268.835,"endTime":2275.65,"body":"Something like this, I take it every person has a right to life, so the"},{"startTime":2275.65,"endTime":2279.285,"body":"fetus has a right to life, no doubt."},{"startTime":2279.665,"endTime":2286.345,"body":"The mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body."},{"startTime":2287.865,"endTime":2294.168,"body":"Everyone would grant that, but surely a person's right to life is stronger and more"},{"startTime":2294.168,"endTime":2294.588,"body":"stringent than the mother's right to decide what happens in and to her body and"},{"startTime":2294.588,"endTime":2295.008,"body":"so outweighs it so the fetus may not be killed and abortion may not be"},{"startTime":2295.008,"endTime":2307.195,"body":"performed."},{"startTime":2309.415,"endTime":2316.125,"body":"It sounds plausible, but now let me ask you to imagine this."},{"startTime":2318.145,"endTime":2325.576,"body":"You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with"},{"startTime":2325.576,"endTime":2329.045,"body":"an unconscious violinist, a famous unconscious violinist."},{"startTime":2330.145,"endTime":2336.209,"body":"He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of music"},{"startTime":2336.209,"endTime":2336.613,"body":"lovers has camba canvas all available medical records and found that you and you alone"},{"startTime":2336.613,"endTime":2347.125,"body":"have the right blood type to help they have therefore kidnapped you."},{"startTime":2348.225,"endTime":2354.118,"body":"And last night, the violinist, violinist circulatory system has been plugged into yours so that"},{"startTime":2354.118,"endTime":2354.511,"body":"your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your"},{"startTime":2354.511,"endTime":2360.405,"body":"own."},{"startTime":2361.905,"endTime":2366.39,"body":"Now, the director of the hospital tells you, look, we're sorry the Society of Music"},{"startTime":2366.39,"endTime":2367.885,"body":"lovers did this to you."},{"startTime":2369.305,"endTime":2372.805,"body":"We would never have admitted it if we had known, but still they did it."},{"startTime":2372.985,"endTime":2379.347,"body":"And the violin violinist is now plugged into you to unplug you would be to"},{"startTime":2379.347,"endTime":2383.165,"body":"kill him, but nevermind, it's only for nine months."},{"startTime":2384.625,"endTime":2389.125,"body":"By then, he will have recovered from his ailment and you can safely be unplugged"},{"startTime":2389.125,"endTime":2389.725,"body":"from you."},{"startTime":2393.995,"endTime":2398.175,"body":"Is it morally incumbent, incumbent on you to ace to this situation?"},{"startTime":2399.115,"endTime":2402.295,"body":"No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did a great kindness."},{"startTime":2403.235,"endTime":2404.655,"body":"But do you have toce to it?"},{"startTime":2407.205,"endTime":2412.335,"body":"What if it were not nine months, but nine years or longer still?"},{"startTime":2413.285,"endTime":2416.535,"body":"What if the director of the hospital says, tough luck."},{"startTime":2417.175,"endTime":2420.802,"body":"I agree, but now you've got to stay in bed with the violinist plugged into"},{"startTime":2420.802,"endTime":2422.495,"body":"you for the rest of your life."},{"startTime":2422.925,"endTime":2435.145,"body":"Because remember this, all persons have a right to life and violinists are persons granted."},{"startTime":2435.365,"endTime":2441.742,"body":"You have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a"},{"startTime":2441.742,"endTime":2442.167,"body":"person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your"},{"startTime":2442.167,"endTime":2448.545,"body":"body."},{"startTime":2449.845,"endTime":2451.945,"body":"So you cannot ever be unplugged from him."},{"startTime":2454.105,"endTime":2461.412,"body":"I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something is really wrong"},{"startTime":2461.412,"endTime":2464.335,"body":"with that plausible sound and argument."},{"startTime":2465.175,"endTime":2469.575,"body":"I mentioned a moment ago, end quote."},{"startTime":2472.245,"endTime":2473.735,"body":"This is a very powerful argument."},{"startTime":2474.955,"endTime":2478.75,"body":"Its attraction is that it does not require us to engage at all with the"},{"startTime":2478.75,"endTime":2480.775,"body":"question of when a fetus becomes a person."},{"startTime":2481.565,"endTime":2487.24,"body":"Because even if it is a person, the pregnant woman has no obligation to carry"},{"startTime":2487.24,"endTime":2488.375,"body":"it to term."},{"startTime":2489.635,"endTime":2495.275,"body":"If that is right, it follows that a pregnant woman who wants an abortion is"},{"startTime":2495.275,"endTime":2495.651,"body":"in principle entitled to one or at least that the criminal law should not interfere"},{"startTime":2495.651,"endTime":2502.045,"body":"with her choice."},{"startTime":2503.795,"endTime":2513.065,"body":"This inexorably leads to the question, the proposition that abortion law should be further liberalized"},{"startTime":2513.065,"endTime":2519.245,"body":"as to decriminalize abortion in all or almost all circumstances."},{"startTime":2521.265,"endTime":2530.768,"body":"As we've seen, this is not merely a theoretical issue as there have been many"},{"startTime":2530.768,"endTime":2531.401,"body":"numerous, or I should say, an increase in prosecutions in England and Wales for illegal"},{"startTime":2531.401,"endTime":2540.905,"body":"abortions."},{"startTime":2543.175,"endTime":2553.193,"body":"Another key point is that restrictive abortions do not necessarily lower abortion rates, and that"},{"startTime":2553.193,"endTime":2559.205,"body":"conversely, they lead to many more unsafe backstreet abortions."},{"startTime":2560.595,"endTime":2566.675,"body":"This can have devastating effects on the health of pregnant women, usually from poorer sections"},{"startTime":2566.675,"endTime":2571.945,"body":"of the community who have no choice but to resort to such abortions."},{"startTime":2573.885,"endTime":2581.927,"body":"In the context of Trinidad and Tobago where the English pre 1967 law still prevails,"},{"startTime":2581.927,"endTime":2582.463,"body":"Glenys Heith and Crystal Brean wrote in 2012 quote, the criminal law is a major"},{"startTime":2582.463,"endTime":2583.0,"body":"cause of the public health problem relating to abortion in Trinidad and Tobago, and may"},{"startTime":2583.0,"endTime":2603.375,"body":"be seen as a lead leading cause of maternal morbidity."},{"startTime":2604.515,"endTime":2611.398,"body":"The interpretation of the criminal law makes it impossible for women, for a woman with"},{"startTime":2611.398,"endTime":2611.857,"body":"an unwanted pregnancy to obtain safe medical care in hospitals and oftentimes drives poor women"},{"startTime":2611.857,"endTime":2621.495,"body":"to risk their lives with dangerous procedures."},{"startTime":2622.275,"endTime":2622.815,"body":"End quote."},{"startTime":2627.135,"endTime":2632.508,"body":"I do want, however, to make a final point, which is no less important than"},{"startTime":2632.508,"endTime":2635.375,"body":"the other issues I've addressed in this lecture."},{"startTime":2638.745,"endTime":2646.285,"body":"While some may argue that abortion should be fully cri decriminalized, I also don't want"},{"startTime":2646.285,"endTime":2651.815,"body":"you to think that that's a complete answer to the issue."},{"startTime":2653.955,"endTime":2663.12,"body":"We need to address the social and economic context in her landmark 1983 essay, racism,"},{"startTime":2663.12,"endTime":2666.175,"body":"birth control, and reproductive rights."},{"startTime":2667.045,"endTime":2676.511,"body":"Angela Davis makes clear that birth control, including abortion, is a fundamental prerequisite for the"},{"startTime":2676.511,"endTime":2678.405,"body":"emancipation of women."},{"startTime":2680.955,"endTime":2688.788,"body":"However, she also criticizes the abortion rights movement of the time stating that quote, arguments"},{"startTime":2688.788,"endTime":2689.31,"body":"advanced by birth control advocates have sometimes been based on blatantly racist premises that the"},{"startTime":2689.31,"endTime":2689.833,"body":"historical record for this movement leaves much to be desired, and that the ranks of"},{"startTime":2689.833,"endTime":2711.245,"body":"the abortion rights campaign did not include substantial numbers of women of color."},{"startTime":2712.985,"endTime":2720.578,"body":"She makes a powerful if not uncomfortable point about the history of abortion amongst enslaved"},{"startTime":2720.578,"endTime":2721.085,"body":"people."},{"startTime":2723.715,"endTime":2731.105,"body":"Quote, black women have been aborting themselves since the earliest days of slavery."},{"startTime":2732.695,"endTime":2740.484,"body":"Many slave women refuse to bring children into a world of, of forced labor where"},{"startTime":2740.484,"endTime":2747.755,"body":"chains and floggings and sexual abuse of women were the everyday conditions of life."},{"startTime":2751.735,"endTime":2759.995,"body":"Why were self-imposed abortions and reluctant acts of infanticide such common occurrences during slavery?"},{"startTime":2762.255,"endTime":2770.252,"body":"Not because black women had discovered solutions to their predicaments, but rather because they were"},{"startTime":2770.252,"endTime":2770.785,"body":"desperate abortions and fantasized with the acts of desperation motivated not by the biological birth"},{"startTime":2770.785,"endTime":2782.515,"body":"process, but by the oppressive conditions of slavery."},{"startTime":2783.655,"endTime":2791.513,"body":"Most of these women, no doubt, would've expressed their deepest resentments to, uh, had someone"},{"startTime":2791.513,"endTime":2795.705,"body":"held their abortions as stepping stones towards freedom."},{"startTime":2797.205,"endTime":2804.169,"body":"End of quote, she goes on to say, quote, what is urgently required is a"},{"startTime":2804.169,"endTime":2804.633,"body":"broad campaign to defend the reproductive rights of all women, and especially those women whose"},{"startTime":2804.633,"endTime":2816.705,"body":"economic circumstances often compel them to relinquish the right to reproduction itself."},{"startTime":2817.485,"endTime":2817.945,"body":"End quote."},{"startTime":2819.045,"endTime":2825.029,"body":"She goes on to describe the practice of forced sterilizations of black, native, and Latinx"},{"startTime":2825.029,"endTime":2826.625,"body":"people in US history."},{"startTime":2830.185,"endTime":2835.305,"body":"Reproductive rights shouldn't begin and end with the right to abortion and contraception."},{"startTime":2835.815,"endTime":2841.571,"body":"Important, though those things are, they should also extend to change in social and economic"},{"startTime":2841.571,"endTime":2846.945,"body":"conditions so that those who want to raise children are able to do so."},{"startTime":2848.445,"endTime":2853.845,"body":"All too often, black people, people of color and working class people are not afforded"},{"startTime":2853.845,"endTime":2857.805,"body":"the same range of choices as those who are more privileged."},{"startTime":2860.025,"endTime":2865.445,"body":"In conclusion, we need the full decriminalization of abortion."},{"startTime":2867.445,"endTime":2874.352,"body":"Section 58 of the 1861 Act should be repealed, and the remaining restrictions on abortion"},{"startTime":2874.352,"endTime":2876.655,"body":"access should be swept away."},{"startTime":2877.965,"endTime":2884.04,"body":"This is particularly present for those in the Caribbean jurisdictions who have not liberalized their"},{"startTime":2884.04,"endTime":2888.495,"body":"abortion laws and where the pre 1967 English law still applies."},{"startTime":2890.035,"endTime":2895.135,"body":"But we also need to change the social and economic conditions under which many marginalized"},{"startTime":2895.135,"endTime":2899.215,"body":"people who wish to raise their children are unable to do so."},{"startTime":2900.435,"endTime":2909.225,"body":"The that means a radical redistribution of wealth and power and the policies that support"},{"startTime":2909.225,"endTime":2918.015,"body":"working class parents, such as a universal basic income council, housing, rent control, free childcare."},{"startTime":2918.835,"endTime":2922.495,"body":"But hey, maybe I'm just talking pie in the sky."},{"startTime":2923.185,"endTime":2923.735,"body":"Thank you"},{"startTime":2930.805,"endTime":2931.655,"body":"Professor Thomas."},{"startTime":2931.665,"endTime":2932.135,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2932.135,"endTime":2934.415,"body":"That was a absolutely fascinating lecture."},{"startTime":2934.635,"endTime":2938.175,"body":"Really, really interesting, and we've got time for a few questions."},{"startTime":2938.445,"endTime":2942.18,"body":"I've got some questions that have come in, and interestingly enough, they're kind of grouping"},{"startTime":2942.18,"endTime":2942.43,"body":"around certain themes, so I'm gonna have a go at trying to kind of pull"},{"startTime":2942.43,"endTime":2946.415,"body":"them together."},{"startTime":2946.605,"endTime":2946.895,"body":"I'll"},{"startTime":2946.895,"endTime":2948.015,"body":"Trust one of them, \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2948.015,"endTime":2948.255,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2948.395,"endTime":2949.135,"body":"No guarantees."},{"startTime":2949.795,"endTime":2952.335,"body":"So, um, really interesting final point."},{"startTime":2952.495,"endTime":2956.409,"body":"I think we'll probably, um, want to come back to that at some point, but"},{"startTime":2956.409,"endTime":2956.67,"body":"just going back to the larger overall framing of the election, you took us through"},{"startTime":2956.67,"endTime":2963.455,"body":"sort of a genealogy, if you will, of the, of the laws."},{"startTime":2963.835,"endTime":2968.99,"body":"And what was interesting, and I think you mentioned it yourself, was that the direction"},{"startTime":2968.99,"endTime":2969.333,"body":"of travel has to been to become, to have more legislation around abortion and getting"},{"startTime":2969.333,"endTime":2976.895,"body":"more and more specific about the caveats Yes."},{"startTime":2976.995,"endTime":2981.828,"body":"Or the conditions under which, and yet there seems to be a slight, almost paradox"},{"startTime":2981.828,"endTime":2982.151,"body":"here because as the law's doing that, it seems to have been that changes, especially"},{"startTime":2982.151,"endTime":2982.473,"body":"in different parts of the world, has have almost become more, almost conversely more arbitrary"},{"startTime":2982.473,"endTime":2982.795,"body":"according to who's in power, who wants what, who shouts the loudest in the lobby,"},{"startTime":2982.795,"endTime":2996.975,"body":"for example."},{"startTime":2997.675,"endTime":3001.517,"body":"So some of the questions, and then also, you know, how politicized this has become"},{"startTime":3001.517,"endTime":3004.335,"body":"with the growth of the women's movement and things like that."},{"startTime":3004.875,"endTime":3007.415,"body":"So what's the Lord doing in all this?"},{"startTime":3007.535,"endTime":3012.208,"body":"I mean, you know, there seems to be, on the one hand, very specific a"},{"startTime":3012.208,"endTime":3012.52,"body":"process becoming more specific legally, and yet this is becoming more kind of fraught and"},{"startTime":3012.52,"endTime":3019.375,"body":"arbitrary in politics and fraught in social politics."},{"startTime":3019.995,"endTime":3021.895,"body":"How are these spaces talking to each other?"},{"startTime":3022.395,"endTime":3028.827,"body":"You know, um, let, let, let me look at this from what's happened in the"},{"startTime":3028.827,"endTime":3029.685,"body":"United States."},{"startTime":3031.225,"endTime":3039.92,"body":"It, abortion has become such a political football that from my stance, from my point"},{"startTime":3039.92,"endTime":3040.5,"body":"of view, it's not so much about, um, the rights of the woman, the rights"},{"startTime":3040.5,"endTime":3050.935,"body":"of the the child."},{"startTime":3051.645,"endTime":3058.728,"body":"It's a populous view, which has been, you know, if you look at some of"},{"startTime":3058.728,"endTime":3059.201,"body":"the leading politicians, um, I'm not gonna mention names, but you'll see that at one"},{"startTime":3059.201,"endTime":3070.535,"body":"stage they were, you know, um, in favor of liberalization."},{"startTime":3070.995,"endTime":3077.953,"body":"And then all of a sudden because, uh, uh, it's become fairly popular, uh, in,"},{"startTime":3077.953,"endTime":3078.416,"body":"you know, particularly on the right to become less liberal, uh, there's been that switch"},{"startTime":3078.416,"endTime":3085.375,"body":"switching."},{"startTime":3085.395,"endTime":3091.557,"body":"So it's really, and, and you, and you can see strands of that coming through"},{"startTime":3091.557,"endTime":3095.255,"body":"in other legis in other parts of the world."},{"startTime":3095.795,"endTime":3101.495,"body":"You know, there's a touch of that here in the UK as well, although, you"},{"startTime":3101.495,"endTime":3106.815,"body":"know, we've got fairly liberal laws compared to other parts of, of the world."},{"startTime":3107.195,"endTime":3113.745,"body":"So I, I, I don't know, um, is the real answer as to why the,"},{"startTime":3113.745,"endTime":3120.295,"body":"it's moving in certain directions and it appears to be like this moral, ethical football."},{"startTime":3120.635,"endTime":3128.341,"body":"But I suspect that as opposed to some grand philosophical debate, politics really enters into"},{"startTime":3128.341,"endTime":3128.855,"body":"it."},{"startTime":3128.915,"endTime":3133.269,"body":"And I, and, and that's the feeling that I certainly have when I look at"},{"startTime":3133.269,"endTime":3133.559,"body":"this, um, in a depressing, um, way, and I look, look to see what's happening"},{"startTime":3133.559,"endTime":3138.495,"body":"in the states,"},{"startTime":3139.235,"endTime":3143.695,"body":"But are we moving into a space where someone who comes to power like can"},{"startTime":3143.695,"endTime":3143.992,"body":"just, just change everything, you know, sort of how, how, how vulnerable are a, is"},{"startTime":3143.992,"endTime":3152.615,"body":"the legislation we've got, because it seemed, I mean, that was a potted history, right?"},{"startTime":3152.675,"endTime":3155.825,"body":"So we're probably not seeing a lot of the kind of leg work that went"},{"startTime":3155.825,"endTime":3156.455,"body":"in between changes."},{"startTime":3156.675,"endTime":3160.993,"body":"If you had, if you had asked, if you'd asked, um, if you'd asked an"},{"startTime":3160.993,"endTime":3161.281,"body":"American, uh, and you know, uh, when I say an American, I'm talking about someone"},{"startTime":3161.281,"endTime":3161.569,"body":"from the United States, um, a couple of years ago, how entrenched they thought their"},{"startTime":3161.569,"endTime":3170.495,"body":"abortion rights were."},{"startTime":3170.765,"endTime":3173.055,"body":"They would've said, these are untouchable."},{"startTime":3173.075,"endTime":3177.055,"body":"The, these are constitutional, this is, you know, constitutionally entrenched."},{"startTime":3177.555,"endTime":3182.055,"body":"Um, we've got Roe versus Wade, you know, um, there isn't a problem."},{"startTime":3183.995,"endTime":3192.79,"body":"Um, couple years later you, there's a real panic as to whether or not, you"},{"startTime":3192.79,"endTime":3196.895,"body":"know, um, abortion might be banned outright."},{"startTime":3196.995,"endTime":3200.095,"body":"And it is, and in certain states, that's certainly the aim."},{"startTime":3200.955,"endTime":3207.685,"body":"So I suppose it's what we would say in relation to all our rights."},{"startTime":3208.205,"endTime":3212.193,"body":"I don't think it can ever be complacent in relation to the rights that we"},{"startTime":3212.193,"endTime":3212.725,"body":"fought for."},{"startTime":3213.185,"endTime":3215.925,"body":"Rights that can be given, can be taken away."},{"startTime":3217.065,"endTime":3220.485,"body":"You listed a lot of the case law referring to Ireland, but the biggest,"},{"startTime":3220.745,"endTime":3226.238,"body":"Um, impetus for change in Ireland was the death of savita, halvar of sepsis in"},{"startTime":3226.238,"endTime":3231.365,"body":"hospital when doctors refused to, uh, give her a termination and, and killed her."},{"startTime":3231.945,"endTime":3236.866,"body":"Um, is, is, does that happen in other countries or, you know, you talked about"},{"startTime":3236.866,"endTime":3237.195,"body":"how restrictive it is in the Caribbean, you know, how how come that hasn't happened"},{"startTime":3237.195,"endTime":3242.445,"body":"elsewhere already?"},{"startTime":3244.955,"endTime":3252.183,"body":"Well, that case was really extreme and, and, um, I think what it takes, it,"},{"startTime":3252.183,"endTime":3257.485,"body":"it takes for big cases, um, to move politicians to act."},{"startTime":3257.745,"endTime":3259.405,"body":"And, and therein lies the problem."},{"startTime":3260.065,"endTime":3266.908,"body":"You know, we shouldn't have to have women, um, lives literally put on the line"},{"startTime":3266.908,"endTime":3267.365,"body":"before."},{"startTime":3268.425,"endTime":3276.703,"body":"Um, you know, there, there's movement in the law, so changes will happen, um, in"},{"startTime":3276.703,"endTime":3280.015,"body":"a similar way when people die."},{"startTime":3280.925,"endTime":3282.175,"body":"That, that, that's a tragedy."},{"startTime":3285.395,"endTime":3289.921,"body":"I'd like to come back to your final point about the larger social, um, economic"},{"startTime":3289.921,"endTime":3292.335,"body":"context in which we are having this discussion."},{"startTime":3292.755,"endTime":3298.885,"body":"So, and again, picking up on earlier this idea that our current legal and political"},{"startTime":3298.885,"endTime":3305.015,"body":"systems, they're quite vulnerable to, to change, um, possibly not adequate enough separation of powers."},{"startTime":3305.035,"endTime":3309.627,"body":"Who knows, maybe we won't go down that line, but what can the law sort"},{"startTime":3309.627,"endTime":3309.933,"body":"of, where can the law kind of, can the law intervene in changing anything about"},{"startTime":3309.933,"endTime":3316.975,"body":"the larger context in which this debate is happening?"},{"startTime":3316.995,"endTime":3322.271,"body":"Or does law always come out as a sort of servant of the context that's"},{"startTime":3322.271,"endTime":3322.975,"body":"producing it?"},{"startTime":3323.395,"endTime":3326.71,"body":"Can anything be done from a legal point of view to create the kind of"},{"startTime":3326.71,"endTime":3327.815,"body":"equity that you're talking about?"},{"startTime":3328.245,"endTime":3335.205,"body":"Well, hearing lies the problem, and this is why I chose abortion."},{"startTime":3335.945,"endTime":3343.189,"body":"Um, can I, can I just bring everybody back to the, um, the, this series"},{"startTime":3343.189,"endTime":3343.672,"body":"of lectures that I'm doing hard edge questions and you know, where hard edge questions"},{"startTime":3343.672,"endTime":3352.365,"body":"the law morality intersect."},{"startTime":3354.355,"endTime":3357.365,"body":"There's always gonna be, there's always gonna be, um, problems with it."},{"startTime":3357.365,"endTime":3363.715,"body":"But you know, you, you've got, on the one hand, even if you look at"},{"startTime":3363.715,"endTime":3364.139,"body":"how, um, the European court, uh, o uh, on human rights has been dealing with"},{"startTime":3364.139,"endTime":3364.562,"body":"this tiptoe around the edges trying to, um, reconci reconcile decisions with, um, you know,"},{"startTime":3364.562,"endTime":3379.805,"body":"the, uh, member members of, of the court."},{"startTime":3380.505,"endTime":3389.017,"body":"Um, and what that, what that says to me is judges struggle to get this"},{"startTime":3389.017,"endTime":3389.585,"body":"right."},{"startTime":3391.325,"endTime":3397.906,"body":"Um, we looked at Roe versus Wade and how it was changed by the Dobbs"},{"startTime":3397.906,"endTime":3398.345,"body":"decision."},{"startTime":3400.045,"endTime":3407.204,"body":"One would've thought where, where you have years and years of precedence where, where something"},{"startTime":3407.204,"endTime":3407.681,"body":"is apparently very clear, why is it that judges would suddenly change years of, you"},{"startTime":3407.681,"endTime":3417.705,"body":"know, decades of, um, uh, of precedent."},{"startTime":3418.725,"endTime":3421.305,"body":"And that's because, and this comes back to an earlier lecture."},{"startTime":3422.005,"endTime":3427.385,"body":"Judges are subjected to the same influences and pressures all of us face."},{"startTime":3428.665,"endTime":3429.425,"body":"I repeat it."},{"startTime":3429.805,"endTime":3433.225,"body":"Rights that can be given are rights that can be taken away."},{"startTime":3433.845,"endTime":3434.345,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":3435.685,"endTime":3440.99,"body":"So the, um, philosopher Amio also talks about how before we can really go further"},{"startTime":3440.99,"endTime":3441.344,"body":"with the abortion question, that if we address some of the socioeconomic, um, problems that"},{"startTime":3441.344,"endTime":3441.698,"body":"you're talking about, actually we'd be having a very different conversation altogether and that we"},{"startTime":3441.698,"endTime":3442.052,"body":"wouldn't be sort of splitting hairs about which week and when and who may do"},{"startTime":3442.052,"endTime":3459.385,"body":"this and how many opinions are required."},{"startTime":3459.565,"endTime":3462.345,"body":"We would be having a completely different conversation."},{"startTime":3462.455,"endTime":3463.585,"body":"What do you think about that point"},{"startTime":3463.585,"endTime":3463.825,"body":"Of view?"},{"startTime":3463.825,"endTime":3469.625,"body":"Yeah, I think we, I think we would and, and, um, what's philosophically I think,"},{"startTime":3469.625,"endTime":3470.011,"body":"um, Angela Davis and the point that she makes about black women and their experience"},{"startTime":3470.011,"endTime":3470.398,"body":"and how they see the, um, you know, the abortion debate, if I can put"},{"startTime":3470.398,"endTime":3470.785,"body":"it in that way, is very, very different from, um, those who are considered to"},{"startTime":3470.785,"endTime":3488.185,"body":"be more privileged."},{"startTime":3488.605,"endTime":3490.185,"body":"Um, yeah,"},{"startTime":3491.235,"endTime":3493.305,"body":"Sorry, I'm a hospital doctor and a lawyer."},{"startTime":3493.885,"endTime":3497.545,"body":"And the question about can the law come up with an answer?"},{"startTime":3497.645,"endTime":3502.918,"body":"The, the, the, the, the example is Holland, we have this debate in Holland 55"},{"startTime":3502.918,"endTime":3506.785,"body":"0 years ago when I was a medical student in Holland."},{"startTime":3507.525,"endTime":3512.55,"body":"And the way Holland has dealt with it is completely liberalizing the law in saying,"},{"startTime":3512.55,"endTime":3514.225,"body":"you don't need a reason."},{"startTime":3514.725,"endTime":3517.265,"body":"You can have an abortion up to X weeks."},{"startTime":3517.965,"endTime":3522.606,"body":"And after X weeks, it becomes a debate of is this a fetus, a person"},{"startTime":3522.606,"endTime":3523.225,"body":"or not?"},{"startTime":3523.365,"endTime":3527.145,"body":"The rights of the unborn child against the rights of the mother."},{"startTime":3527.845,"endTime":3532.265,"body":"And I think if you take the example of America, it is religion."},{"startTime":3532.405,"endTime":3538.917,"body":"The fundamentalist Christians in America of whom there are many in politics who have moved"},{"startTime":3538.917,"endTime":3542.825,"body":"this debate completely to the opposite in modern times."},{"startTime":3543.365,"endTime":3545.985,"body":"So it can be done Holland is the example of it."},{"startTime":3546.155,"endTime":3546.625,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3546.715,"endTime":3547.145,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3547.145,"endTime":3551.309,"body":"We'll take that as a comment and I just hope to goodness that the recent"},{"startTime":3551.309,"endTime":3551.587,"body":"election result in, in the Netherlands does not change that \u003claugh\u003e, please join me in"},{"startTime":3551.587,"endTime":3556.585,"body":"thanking our speaker, professor."}]}