{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.225,"endTime":9.685,"body":"You've joined this event to think about ancient Greek ideas of justice."},{"startTime":16.184,"endTime":23.826,"body":"So imagine that before being allowed into this room or onto this live stream, you"},{"startTime":23.826,"endTime":24.335,"body":"were required in order to think about justice, to put on a magic blindfold that"},{"startTime":24.335,"endTime":24.845,"body":"erased most of your knowledge about yourself, your race, ethnicity, and gender, your skills and"},{"startTime":24.845,"endTime":44.205,"body":"aspirations, your current income and wealth, your lifelong earning prospects."},{"startTime":45.385,"endTime":51.004,"body":"The idea is that only by veiling all of those facts from view, could you"},{"startTime":51.004,"endTime":55.125,"body":"be properly situated to think about what is just and fair."},{"startTime":79.455,"endTime":83.819,"body":"The Gresham College lecture that you're listening to right now is giving you knowledge and"},{"startTime":83.819,"endTime":84.11,"body":"insight from one of the world's leading academic experts, making it takes a lot of"},{"startTime":84.11,"endTime":88.475,"body":"time."},{"startTime":98.905,"endTime":101.195,"body":"Send a link to this lecture to someone you think would benefit."},{"startTime":101.575,"endTime":105.458,"body":"And if you haven't already, click the follow or subscribe button from wherever you are"},{"startTime":105.458,"endTime":106.235,"body":"listening right now."},{"startTime":161.845,"endTime":167.252,"body":"Just in the last two years, we've two seen two major works, one by Daniel"},{"startTime":167.252,"endTime":168.695,"body":"Chandler, free and Equal."},{"startTime":168.965,"endTime":171.135,"body":"What would a fair Society look like?"},{"startTime":227.155,"endTime":233.233,"body":"Again, how much money they had, their race, gender, or sexuality, even their religious beliefs"},{"startTime":233.233,"endTime":235.665,"body":"and their wider goals in life."},{"startTime":274.405,"endTime":279.3,"body":"It was meant to be intuitive that was meant to kind of capture an intuitive"},{"startTime":279.3,"endTime":281.585,"body":"approach to justice that people find appealing."},{"startTime":282.595,"endTime":289.334,"body":"After all, courtrooms around the world are adorned with images of lady justice, a female"},{"startTime":289.334,"endTime":295.625,"body":"figure often depicted as wearing a blindfold, carrying scales and tum, sometimes a sword."},{"startTime":296.485,"endTime":304.098,"body":"So the veil in the form of a blindfold has come to symbolize very legibly"},{"startTime":304.098,"endTime":304.606,"body":"and intuitively this impartiality of justice, judging without fear or favor, but not so for"},{"startTime":304.606,"endTime":313.235,"body":"the ancient Greeks."},{"startTime":314.775,"endTime":322.058,"body":"So when we look at ancient Greek ideas of justice, by contrast, they're never characterized"},{"startTime":322.058,"endTime":323.515,"body":"by a blindfold."},{"startTime":324.065,"endTime":331.957,"body":"They were actually characterized by keenness of sight, which I will follow the art historian"},{"startTime":331.957,"endTime":335.115,"body":"Valerie Haart in calling clear sightedness."},{"startTime":335.895,"endTime":341.529,"body":"So this is the ancient Greek goddess, themus rep representing divine justice in an ancient"},{"startTime":341.529,"endTime":341.905,"body":"image from about the thirds, um, 300 BCE, so the turn of the fourth to"},{"startTime":341.905,"endTime":347.915,"body":"third century."},{"startTime":349.175,"endTime":356.115,"body":"And equally, her daughter with Zeus Dke representing human justice, also known as astria."},{"startTime":427.265,"endTime":433.536,"body":"But in this case, in in the 1494 woodcut that sometimes attributed to Alur, the"},{"startTime":433.536,"endTime":436.045,"body":"image is meant to be satirical."},{"startTime":463.265,"endTime":470.999,"body":"And so in a 1593 work that summarized early modern iconography, Chere repo wrote that"},{"startTime":470.999,"endTime":475.125,"body":"the personification of justice is a blindfolded woman."},{"startTime":506.505,"endTime":507.765,"body":"And this was this image."},{"startTime":508.705,"endTime":514.198,"body":"So in plu tar writing in the late first century turn of the second century"},{"startTime":514.198,"endTime":519.325,"body":"of the common era, he recollects that in thieves and he means Egyptian thieves."},{"startTime":519.495,"endTime":525.606,"body":"There were set up statues of judges without hands, and the statue of the chief"},{"startTime":525.606,"endTime":526.013,"body":"justice had its eyes closed to indicate that justice is not influenced by gifts or"},{"startTime":526.013,"endTime":532.125,"body":"intercession."},{"startTime":532.625,"endTime":540.433,"body":"And this account of plutarch may have inspired this short wave of early modern images"},{"startTime":540.433,"endTime":540.954,"body":"around the, um, around 1600 that shows judges with their hands amputated to capture their"},{"startTime":540.954,"endTime":550.325,"body":"imperiousness to receiving bribes."},{"startTime":550.345,"endTime":554.565,"body":"And in the Greek and plu tar, it's described as their being odd door doone."},{"startTime":564.105,"endTime":569.565,"body":"But that image was kind of a short waved, uh, a short-lived wave."},{"startTime":585.385,"endTime":589.525,"body":"Now, the classical Greeks also did value impartiality."},{"startTime":590.065,"endTime":596.472,"body":"So when we look to the Athenian juror oath, for example, the Athenian jurors as"},{"startTime":596.472,"endTime":596.899,"body":"Damani reports sworn themselves to judge with their most just judgment, and they shouldn't cast"},{"startTime":596.899,"endTime":606.725,"body":"their votes through favor or any other unjust reason."},{"startTime":621.945,"endTime":628.347,"body":"So when the playwright ISTs, for example, this is a representation of his play, the"},{"startTime":628.347,"endTime":628.773,"body":"humanities in which he gave a mythological origin to the Athenian jury, the goddess Athena"},{"startTime":628.773,"endTime":629.2,"body":"herself joins a jury that will replace blood vengeance with a measured and formal trial"},{"startTime":629.2,"endTime":643.285,"body":"giving the possibility of acquittal."},{"startTime":644.065,"endTime":649.341,"body":"But again, this founding myth of Athenian justice was carried out without any hint of"},{"startTime":649.341,"endTime":650.045,"body":"a blindfold."},{"startTime":669.545,"endTime":675.837,"body":"And I'm going to do this by exploring the, the work of the ancient Greek"},{"startTime":675.837,"endTime":676.257,"body":"law giver Solan of Athens, who otherwise I think is very comparable to Rawls and"},{"startTime":676.257,"endTime":687.165,"body":"seeking to rethink the basic terms of social justice for a society."},{"startTime":737.185,"endTime":743.232,"body":"And then in conclusion, I'll explore some measures that might today instantiate the aims that"},{"startTime":743.232,"endTime":744.845,"body":"Solan sought to achieve."},{"startTime":746.585,"endTime":748.285,"body":"So two brief caveats."},{"startTime":787.285,"endTime":792.103,"body":"A few ancient Greeks did make fortunes, but it was much more likely as we'll"},{"startTime":792.103,"endTime":792.425,"body":"see, that people would slide into bankruptcy than that they would make it to the"},{"startTime":792.425,"endTime":797.565,"body":"economic top."},{"startTime":813.595,"endTime":819.888,"body":"Nevertheless, as I'll now argue, we can learn a great deal by comparing the different"},{"startTime":819.888,"endTime":820.307,"body":"ways that Solan and Rawls approach the question of establishing justice between the rich and"},{"startTime":820.307,"endTime":831.635,"body":"the poor, and the contrast between clear sightedness and blindfolded in doing so."},{"startTime":851.215,"endTime":857.683,"body":"So the difference principle reads, social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that"},{"startTime":857.683,"endTime":861.995,"body":"they are to the expected benefit of the least advantaged."},{"startTime":863.495,"endTime":868.915,"body":"So rawls held that justice does not require complete economic equality."},{"startTime":905.355,"endTime":910.412,"body":"So the idea is that behind the blindfold, no one would endorse any greater allowance"},{"startTime":910.412,"endTime":910.75,"body":"for inequality because everyone would be aware that while they themselves might have a chance"},{"startTime":910.75,"endTime":911.087,"body":"of ending up at the top position, they have an equal chance so far as"},{"startTime":911.087,"endTime":924.575,"body":"they know from behind the veil of ending up at the bottom."},{"startTime":934.015,"endTime":941.755,"body":"Now, like Rawls, Solan also rejected the idea that justice required perfectly equal economic holdings."},{"startTime":975.855,"endTime":981.199,"body":"And so my wager is that thinking about Solan in this dialogue with Rawls can"},{"startTime":981.199,"endTime":981.556,"body":"help us to think further about what basic terms of justice a democracy might require"},{"startTime":981.556,"endTime":989.395,"body":"today and how best we can identify them."},{"startTime":1000.975,"endTime":1008.075,"body":"So East Giles's play that I mentioned, the humanities was depicting a mythic legendary time."},{"startTime":1019.375,"endTime":1024.887,"body":"We can read records of his words and deeds as they crystallized in the century"},{"startTime":1024.887,"endTime":1025.254,"body":"or so after he died when his oral poems were written down and in the"},{"startTime":1025.254,"endTime":1025.622,"body":"painted inscriptions of his laws on wooden notice, notice boards, which he ordered should be"},{"startTime":1025.622,"endTime":1039.954,"body":"set up and which were still visible centuries after he died."},{"startTime":1041.015,"endTime":1048.083,"body":"And there are references to Solen and many of our authors, including Herid, Aristophanes, Plato,"},{"startTime":1048.083,"endTime":1048.555,"body":"Aristotle."},{"startTime":1057.415,"endTime":1063.037,"body":"So one of them is the Constitution of Athens, which was composed in this circle"},{"startTime":1063.037,"endTime":1063.412,"body":"of Aristotle's Lyceum in the late fourth century, BCEI like to think of it as"},{"startTime":1063.412,"endTime":1071.285,"body":"having been written by Aristotle's graduate students."},{"startTime":1076.945,"endTime":1083.12,"body":"So Aristotle's Circle, actually, we are told, assembled 158 different constitutions of different Greek uh,"},{"startTime":1083.12,"endTime":1083.531,"body":"cities, but this is the only one which survives in, in part in, in, in"},{"startTime":1083.531,"endTime":1091.765,"body":"this case, in a large part."},{"startTime":1120.185,"endTime":1124.646,"body":"So scholars have done a great deal of work on the differences of detail between"},{"startTime":1124.646,"endTime":1124.943,"body":"these two narratives, but for my purposes tonight, I'm just going to draw on them"},{"startTime":1124.943,"endTime":1129.405,"body":"both."},{"startTime":1159.425,"endTime":1165.182,"body":"So Solen was born to an elite family in Athens toward the end of the"},{"startTime":1165.182,"endTime":1167.485,"body":"seventh century before the common era."},{"startTime":1168.505,"endTime":1173.731,"body":"But he had a special status in his life of having affinities with both the"},{"startTime":1173.731,"endTime":1175.125,"body":"rich and the poor."},{"startTime":1189.545,"endTime":1194.81,"body":"We think that he came to this reputation in part because he came to publicly"},{"startTime":1194.81,"endTime":1196.565,"body":"compose and perform oral poetry."},{"startTime":1196.835,"endTime":1199.765,"body":"He's the first known Athenian poet."},{"startTime":1199.815,"endTime":1203.005,"body":"There were other poets elsewhere of whom we have earlier records."},{"startTime":1229.225,"endTime":1234.614,"body":"And that meant that he traveled, he amassed wisdom from foreign sources, but he also"},{"startTime":1234.614,"endTime":1239.645,"body":"built up a network of contacts and trust with the poorer citizens of Athens."},{"startTime":1253.325,"endTime":1256.905,"body":"And it was this division between the rich and the poor."},{"startTime":1271.645,"endTime":1278.448,"body":"So roughly speaking, perhaps 20% of the free population were an elite group, and the"},{"startTime":1278.448,"endTime":1284.345,"body":"other 80% ranged in wealth and independence from small craftsmen to landless farmers."},{"startTime":1292.805,"endTime":1297.278,"body":"And so if they couldn't pay what they owed, they might be as it were,"},{"startTime":1297.278,"endTime":1299.665,"body":"indentured, but until they could pay their debts."},{"startTime":1354.645,"endTime":1360.931,"body":"So this line between the rich and the poor generated a significant destabilization of the"},{"startTime":1360.931,"endTime":1363.865,"body":"social fabric in Athens at the time."},{"startTime":1364.245,"endTime":1371.215,"body":"And there were other sources of political tension that the existing political institutions were ill-equipped"},{"startTime":1371.215,"endTime":1372.145,"body":"to manage."},{"startTime":1398.605,"endTime":1403.745,"body":"But Solan was simultaneously given two further roles that were unusual."},{"startTime":1446.575,"endTime":1451.595,"body":"So on the one hand, he did establish impartial legal processes."},{"startTime":1451.655,"endTime":1456.315,"body":"So again, we see that the Greeks do value forms of impartiality injustice."},{"startTime":1468.575,"endTime":1472.058,"body":"So that might make it sound like he's going to treat the poor and the"},{"startTime":1472.058,"endTime":1472.755,"body":"rich exactly alike."},{"startTime":1473.095,"endTime":1477.945,"body":"But as we'll see, actually in order to be fair to both sides, he actually"},{"startTime":1477.945,"endTime":1478.915,"body":"treats them differently."},{"startTime":1492.575,"endTime":1498.744,"body":"And he describes himself as setting up a strong shield around both parties, again, not"},{"startTime":1498.744,"endTime":1502.035,"body":"to allow either to defeat the other unjustly."},{"startTime":1506.875,"endTime":1511.595,"body":"A boundary marker, a shield, neither of those is going to work."},{"startTime":1524.015,"endTime":1529.518,"body":"So Solan had to be clear sighted in positioning himself to protect each side rich"},{"startTime":1529.518,"endTime":1533.555,"body":"and poor from the excessive demands or pressure from the other."},{"startTime":1599.735,"endTime":1604.885,"body":"And these come from that text from Aristotle's graduate students, the Constitution of Athens."},{"startTime":1621.345,"endTime":1622.885,"body":"So they impose a floor."},{"startTime":1623.225,"endTime":1629.234,"body":"You can't sink into slavery now if you're a free person because you can't anymore"},{"startTime":1629.234,"endTime":1629.634,"body":"take debts on the security of your body, which would risk throwing you into slavery"},{"startTime":1629.634,"endTime":1636.445,"body":"should you default."},{"startTime":1637.025,"endTime":1642.977,"body":"So that puts a floor underneath the poor to allow them to maintain their political"},{"startTime":1642.977,"endTime":1644.565,"body":"status as equal citizens."},{"startTime":1663.665,"endTime":1666.845,"body":"We know who has to be treated in what terms."},{"startTime":1668.545,"endTime":1674.231,"body":"So rather than being rawlsian, solens approach is actually closer to an approach that was"},{"startTime":1674.231,"endTime":1676.885,"body":"advocated by the political theorist Michael Wazer."},{"startTime":1677.105,"endTime":1679.205,"body":"In this works, fears of Justice"},{"startTime":1691.975,"endTime":1694.115,"body":"And that's what we can see Solan is trying to do."},{"startTime":1760.895,"endTime":1766.913,"body":"So this was, this was described as a real earthquake in the constitution of Athenian"},{"startTime":1766.913,"endTime":1767.315,"body":"society."},{"startTime":1846.655,"endTime":1852.155,"body":"So when there was an excessive debt burden, even the courtroom justice, which was meant"},{"startTime":1852.155,"endTime":1852.521,"body":"to be impartial, couldn't actually be practiced impartially because the poor would be under the"},{"startTime":1852.521,"endTime":1860.955,"body":"thumb of at the beckon call of the rich."},{"startTime":1874.935,"endTime":1881.212,"body":"So both of our ancient narratives allege that Solan confided his intention to cancel debts"},{"startTime":1881.212,"endTime":1886.235,"body":"to some of his wealthy friends who then engaged in insider trading."},{"startTime":1886.945,"endTime":1892.899,"body":"They bought, they incurred debts and bought land and then sat back as their debts"},{"startTime":1892.899,"endTime":1896.075,"body":"were abolished, but their land investments remained secure."},{"startTime":1896.495,"endTime":1902.336,"body":"So this is a risky strategy, and it has to be timed appropriately and managed"},{"startTime":1902.336,"endTime":1902.726,"body":"correctly, although the Constitution of Athens rejects an apparent accusation at the time that Solen"},{"startTime":1902.726,"endTime":1910.515,"body":"himself was involved in the scam."},{"startTime":1912.935,"endTime":1916.955,"body":"So let me just add that Solan also of course passed many other laws, um,"},{"startTime":1916.955,"endTime":1919.635,"body":"and we're going to look at some in more detail."},{"startTime":2039.745,"endTime":2045.645,"body":"And indeed the scholar Josiah Ober, in a recent work, the Greeks and the rational"},{"startTime":2045.645,"endTime":2046.038,"body":"has analyzed the dynamics of Solens intervention in terms of game theory in exactly this"},{"startTime":2046.038,"endTime":2052.725,"body":"kind of way."},{"startTime":2066.105,"endTime":2071.24,"body":"So on ER's interpretation, Solan could only go as far in effect as the rich"},{"startTime":2071.24,"endTime":2071.925,"body":"would allow."},{"startTime":2082.735,"endTime":2087.777,"body":"So Ober again takes this line of analysis to have been anticipated again by plu"},{"startTime":2087.777,"endTime":2088.114,"body":"tar."},{"startTime":2145.515,"endTime":2150.396,"body":"And he was accommodating his laws to the citizens in such a way as to"},{"startTime":2150.396,"endTime":2150.722,"body":"make it clear to all that the practice of justice was better than the transgression"},{"startTime":2150.722,"endTime":2156.255,"body":"of the laws."},{"startTime":2145.515,"endTime":2150.396,"body":"And he was accommodating his laws to the citizens in such a way as to"},{"startTime":2150.396,"endTime":2150.722,"body":"make it clear to all that the practice of justice was better than the transgression"},{"startTime":2150.722,"endTime":2156.255,"body":"of the laws."},{"startTime":2199.065,"endTime":2204.605,"body":"So Rawles might say this is not justice at all, if that's all justice is,"},{"startTime":2204.605,"endTime":2204.975,"body":"if it's simply a bargain between the self-interested, this just isn't justice because rawls is"},{"startTime":2204.975,"endTime":2210.885,"body":"whole concern."},{"startTime":2199.065,"endTime":2204.605,"body":"So Rawles might say this is not justice at all, if that's all justice is,"},{"startTime":2204.605,"endTime":2204.975,"body":"if it's simply a bargain between the self-interested, this just isn't justice because rawls is"},{"startTime":2204.975,"endTime":2210.885,"body":"whole concern."},{"startTime":2223.225,"endTime":2225.245,"body":"And that's exactly on o's analysis."},{"startTime":2223.225,"endTime":2225.245,"body":"And that's exactly on o's analysis."},{"startTime":2226.585,"endTime":2231.922,"body":"Soland had to set the boundary stone, but within a force field where there was"},{"startTime":2231.922,"endTime":2235.125,"body":"far more power on the side of the rich."},{"startTime":2226.585,"endTime":2231.922,"body":"Soland had to set the boundary stone, but within a force field where there was"},{"startTime":2231.922,"endTime":2235.125,"body":"far more power on the side of the rich."},{"startTime":2236.065,"endTime":2240.876,"body":"And so for raws, because the rich were able to sway where this new line"},{"startTime":2240.876,"endTime":2244.725,"body":"of justice should be drawn, this shouldn't count as justice at all."},{"startTime":2236.065,"endTime":2240.876,"body":"And so for raws, because the rich were able to sway where this new line"},{"startTime":2240.876,"endTime":2244.725,"body":"of justice should be drawn, this shouldn't count as justice at all."},{"startTime":2245.145,"endTime":2251.363,"body":"It was what raws would call elsewhere, a mere modus vivendi, a simple kind of"},{"startTime":2251.363,"endTime":2251.778,"body":"way of getting along, a way of living together, but a way of living together"},{"startTime":2251.778,"endTime":2260.485,"body":"that that isn't affirmed on moral ground."},{"startTime":2245.145,"endTime":2251.363,"body":"It was what raws would call elsewhere, a mere modus vivendi, a simple kind of"},{"startTime":2251.363,"endTime":2251.778,"body":"way of getting along, a way of living together, but a way of living together"},{"startTime":2251.778,"endTime":2260.485,"body":"that that isn't affirmed on moral ground."},{"startTime":2282.775,"endTime":2290.16,"body":"But I wanna suggest that there were more productive possibilities opened up by solens clear"},{"startTime":2290.16,"endTime":2293.115,"body":"sighted approach than Rawls would allow."},{"startTime":2282.775,"endTime":2290.16,"body":"But I wanna suggest that there were more productive possibilities opened up by solens clear"},{"startTime":2290.16,"endTime":2293.115,"body":"sighted approach than Rawls would allow."},{"startTime":2294.515,"endTime":2299.765,"body":"I think Ober may be right that Solens laws initially his arbitration did take the"},{"startTime":2299.765,"endTime":2300.115,"body":"form of this kind of bargain between the rich and the poor that polled more"},{"startTime":2300.115,"endTime":2307.115,"body":"in the direction of the rich."},{"startTime":2294.515,"endTime":2299.765,"body":"I think Ober may be right that Solens laws initially his arbitration did take the"},{"startTime":2299.765,"endTime":2300.115,"body":"form of this kind of bargain between the rich and the poor that polled more"},{"startTime":2300.115,"endTime":2307.115,"body":"in the direction of the rich."},{"startTime":2318.145,"endTime":2324.92,"body":"So Solen through his laws, sought to build a true settlement, a just settlement that"},{"startTime":2324.92,"endTime":2325.371,"body":"would be a better way to live a true civic understanding of justice going beyond"},{"startTime":2325.371,"endTime":2334.405,"body":"this initial kind of tolerable bargain."},{"startTime":2318.145,"endTime":2324.92,"body":"So Solen through his laws, sought to build a true settlement, a just settlement that"},{"startTime":2324.92,"endTime":2325.371,"body":"would be a better way to live a true civic understanding of justice going beyond"},{"startTime":2325.371,"endTime":2334.405,"body":"this initial kind of tolerable bargain."},{"startTime":2340.905,"endTime":2345.952,"body":"So for example, in his laws, which are to do with banqueting, as you see"},{"startTime":2345.952,"endTime":2348.645,"body":"in the last line of this quotation, right?"},{"startTime":2348.705,"endTime":2352.085,"body":"How should citizens regulate their feasting together?"},{"startTime":2348.705,"endTime":2352.085,"body":"How should citizens regulate their feasting together?"},{"startTime":2352.675,"endTime":2355.805,"body":"They need to learn how to hold excess in check."},{"startTime":2352.675,"endTime":2355.805,"body":"They need to learn how to hold excess in check."},{"startTime":2355.875,"endTime":2360.496,"body":"This is again from Solens poetry telling us of some of the aims of his"},{"startTime":2360.496,"endTime":2360.805,"body":"laws."},{"startTime":2355.875,"endTime":2360.496,"body":"This is again from Solens poetry telling us of some of the aims of his"},{"startTime":2360.496,"endTime":2360.805,"body":"laws."},{"startTime":2384.545,"endTime":2387.165,"body":"Um, he wrote a law, um, also about that."},{"startTime":2401.265,"endTime":2407.643,"body":"And so create a civic ethos of justice that could go beyond the mere modus"},{"startTime":2407.643,"endTime":2411.045,"body":"vivendi in which his arbitration may have begun."},{"startTime":2401.265,"endTime":2407.643,"body":"And so create a civic ethos of justice that could go beyond the mere modus"},{"startTime":2407.643,"endTime":2411.045,"body":"vivendi in which his arbitration may have begun."},{"startTime":2412.745,"endTime":2420.927,"body":"And actually, here solen makes common cause with rawls once again because rawls too argued"},{"startTime":2420.927,"endTime":2428.565,"body":"that justice must ultimately secure what he called the social basis of self respect."},{"startTime":2429.625,"endTime":2435.125,"body":"So for Rawls, one of the reasons that we might insist on the difference principle"},{"startTime":2435.125,"endTime":2435.491,"body":"where we peg the gains of the rich to the position of the poor is"},{"startTime":2435.491,"endTime":2435.858,"body":"precisely because the parties in the original position behind the blindfold or veil would want"},{"startTime":2435.858,"endTime":2448.325,"body":"to avoid at almost any cost."},{"startTime":2429.625,"endTime":2435.125,"body":"So for Rawls, one of the reasons that we might insist on the difference principle"},{"startTime":2435.125,"endTime":2435.491,"body":"where we peg the gains of the rich to the position of the poor is"},{"startTime":2435.491,"endTime":2435.858,"body":"precisely because the parties in the original position behind the blindfold or veil would want"},{"startTime":2435.858,"endTime":2448.325,"body":"to avoid at almost any cost."},{"startTime":2453.545,"endTime":2458.528,"body":"So both Solen and rawls ultimately see justice as something that you have to make"},{"startTime":2458.528,"endTime":2459.525,"body":"sustainable over time."},{"startTime":2453.545,"endTime":2458.528,"body":"So both Solen and rawls ultimately see justice as something that you have to make"},{"startTime":2458.528,"endTime":2459.525,"body":"sustainable over time."},{"startTime":2460.145,"endTime":2466.522,"body":"It can't just be a one-off bargain, it might start in a bargain, but then"},{"startTime":2466.522,"endTime":2466.947,"body":"people's commitments need to be transformed if justice is truly going to be achieved and"},{"startTime":2466.947,"endTime":2473.325,"body":"maintained."},{"startTime":2490.115,"endTime":2495.437,"body":"That judgment is reserved for what he called reflective equilibrium where we come back, we"},{"startTime":2495.437,"endTime":2500.405,"body":"take off the blindfold or the veil, and we reflect on what we've learned."},{"startTime":2490.115,"endTime":2495.437,"body":"That judgment is reserved for what he called reflective equilibrium where we come back, we"},{"startTime":2495.437,"endTime":2500.405,"body":"take off the blindfold or the veil, and we reflect on what we've learned."},{"startTime":2501.345,"endTime":2506.045,"body":"And so even for Rawls, the blindfold must at some point come off."},{"startTime":2501.345,"endTime":2506.045,"body":"And so even for Rawls, the blindfold must at some point come off."},{"startTime":2529.395,"endTime":2531.455,"body":"So the first is transparency."},{"startTime":2529.395,"endTime":2531.455,"body":"So the first is transparency."},{"startTime":2557.035,"endTime":2562.935,"body":"Now, many of our sources interpret this as a law against idleness, but it's also"},{"startTime":2562.935,"endTime":2567.655,"body":"a law man mandating transparency about the sources of income and wealth."},{"startTime":2557.035,"endTime":2562.935,"body":"Now, many of our sources interpret this as a law against idleness, but it's also"},{"startTime":2562.935,"endTime":2567.655,"body":"a law man mandating transparency about the sources of income and wealth."},{"startTime":2584.675,"endTime":2589.015,"body":"So we often think today we only need transparency about those at the top."},{"startTime":2584.675,"endTime":2589.015,"body":"So we often think today we only need transparency about those at the top."},{"startTime":2600.715,"endTime":2603.255,"body":"And that's a laudable step toward transparency."},{"startTime":2604.515,"endTime":2609.933,"body":"But we might think, what about also disclosing the lowest salaries of the cleaners and"},{"startTime":2609.933,"endTime":2610.294,"body":"the offices of those well paid civil servants so that we can be sure that"},{"startTime":2610.294,"endTime":2610.655,"body":"on zero hours contracts on which many of them are working, they're earning enough for"},{"startTime":2610.655,"endTime":2622.215,"body":"an annual living wage."},{"startTime":2622.795,"endTime":2628.107,"body":"So the fact that we have an annual minimum national minimum wage for hourly pay"},{"startTime":2628.107,"endTime":2628.462,"body":"doesn't secure a, an annual wage in the way that this kind of disclosure could"},{"startTime":2628.462,"endTime":2633.775,"body":"help."},{"startTime":2634.595,"endTime":2641.449,"body":"So I think solens transparency about the income of all people, rich or poor, again,"},{"startTime":2641.449,"endTime":2641.906,"body":"clear sightedness suggests that we need disclosure to secure the social basis of self-respect in"},{"startTime":2641.906,"endTime":2642.363,"body":"rawls's terms for everyone, floor and ceiling, in order, um, to test the existence of"},{"startTime":2642.363,"endTime":2655.615,"body":"justice."},{"startTime":2667.315,"endTime":2672.807,"body":"And this again, I think is prefigured by solens cancellation of debts, which led to"},{"startTime":2672.807,"endTime":2673.173,"body":"at least one generation being able to bequeath far more assets than they otherwise would've"},{"startTime":2673.173,"endTime":2679.765,"body":"been able to do."},{"startTime":2681.545,"endTime":2688.67,"body":"So solen um, achi went some direction toward a progressive tax on wealth, but the"},{"startTime":2688.67,"endTime":2694.845,"body":"Athenian democracy after his time would impose high special taxes on the wealthy."},{"startTime":2754.865,"endTime":2757.045,"body":"But again, it required clear sightedness."},{"startTime":2766.065,"endTime":2772.756,"body":"So again, we can think of further requirements of disclosure regulations on tax havens on"},{"startTime":2772.756,"endTime":2776.325,"body":"holding companies in order to achieve similar goals."},{"startTime":2784.145,"endTime":2790.045,"body":"And this is a paradoxical law that many scholars have wrestled with because it seeks"},{"startTime":2790.045,"endTime":2790.438,"body":"not to moderate and reconcile opposing factions, but it seems on the face of it"},{"startTime":2790.438,"endTime":2797.125,"body":"to reinforce them."},{"startTime":2798.905,"endTime":2800.765,"body":"Uh, sorry, I had count Thomas Pickety."},{"startTime":2803.265,"endTime":2806.045,"body":"But this is the law that I want to end with."},{"startTime":2806.985,"endTime":2808.765,"body":"So we have this in both of our sources."},{"startTime":2821.775,"endTime":2827.736,"body":"Atmos is literally be without honor in this case, without civic honor or standing, and"},{"startTime":2827.736,"endTime":2828.133,"body":"the constitution of Athens ads that such a person shall become atmos and shall have"},{"startTime":2828.133,"endTime":2835.685,"body":"no share in the city."},{"startTime":2847.865,"endTime":2852.593,"body":"And that seems to be the opposite of what we might think he was trying"},{"startTime":2852.593,"endTime":2854.485,"body":"as an arbitrator actually to achieve."},{"startTime":2856.385,"endTime":2861.533,"body":"Indeed polarization is one of the most serious concerns in contemporary democracies as the wreath"},{"startTime":2861.533,"endTime":2864.965,"body":"lecturer this year observed, um, in, in his first lecture."},{"startTime":2882.465,"endTime":2888.134,"body":"So the danger that Solens law is trying to avoid is the danger that some"},{"startTime":2888.134,"endTime":2888.512,"body":"people will engage in putting private affairs and safety and glorying in not sharing in"},{"startTime":2888.512,"endTime":2897.205,"body":"the sick, the disgrace and sickness of the country."},{"startTime":2898.425,"endTime":2901.645,"body":"So the idea is that people should have to face the same perils."},{"startTime":2901.835,"endTime":2907.408,"body":"They should actually take part in the strife and try to make it come out"},{"startTime":2907.408,"endTime":2907.78,"body":"in the just way rather than sitting back and waiting safely for the dispositions of"},{"startTime":2907.78,"endTime":2913.725,"body":"the winners."},{"startTime":2915.385,"endTime":2921.125,"body":"So I think again, that this way of thinking about civic participation is in keeping"},{"startTime":2921.125,"endTime":2921.507,"body":"with the clear sighted approach to justice that I've argued that Solan held and that"},{"startTime":2921.507,"endTime":2932.605,"body":"he took from the basic Greek idea that justice should be clear sighted, not blindfolded."},{"startTime":2992.385,"endTime":2997.15,"body":"So thank you and please join me next time for ancient Greek ideas of equality"},{"startTime":2997.15,"endTime":3000.645,"body":"under the law, and thank you very much for your attention."},{"startTime":3010.855,"endTime":3014.205,"body":"Thank you, um, as ever, Melissa Magisterial performance."},{"startTime":3014.205,"endTime":3014.565,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3023.755,"endTime":3024.365,"body":"Some extent."},{"startTime":3050.085,"endTime":3055.914,"body":"Let's just take either one of those countries in order to adopt the principles of"},{"startTime":3055.914,"endTime":3058.635,"body":"fairness, whether they be Ian or Celon."},{"startTime":3059.145,"endTime":3060.115,"body":"Yeah, thank you."},{"startTime":3060.175,"endTime":3065.966,"body":"So, so I, I, I do think that this idea that one needs to be"},{"startTime":3065.966,"endTime":3066.352,"body":"able to identify and pinpoint where real power differentials exist in order to be able"},{"startTime":3066.352,"endTime":3074.075,"body":"to then design appropriate legal instruments."},{"startTime":3074.195,"endTime":3078.204,"body":"I think that's a very important sort of application of the Greek idea of the"},{"startTime":3078.204,"endTime":3080.075,"body":"clear sighted approach that I've been developing."},{"startTime":3080.415,"endTime":3086.383,"body":"So I flashed the Pickety image, um, very briefly, but of course, he and other"},{"startTime":3086.383,"endTime":3086.78,"body":"scholars, Emmanuel Saez, um, and Gabriel Zucman and others have done very important work in"},{"startTime":3086.78,"endTime":3087.178,"body":"trying to pinpoint the real sources of wealth inequalities and their real, just simply their"},{"startTime":3087.178,"endTime":3099.115,"body":"real distribution."},{"startTime":3141.315,"endTime":3145.515,"body":"I, I was struck as well by, I'm not gonna pronounce this word very well,"},{"startTime":3145.515,"endTime":3146.915,"body":"I suspect the seismic word."},{"startTime":3147.095,"endTime":3147.315,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3149.825,"endTime":3154.464,"body":"Because, um, just, I'm not sure if you were on a flight when this was"},{"startTime":3154.464,"endTime":3158.795,"body":"all happening, but the new legislation that came in to repay the post office"},{"startTime":3159.455,"endTime":3159.675,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3162.055,"endTime":3169.546,"body":"So you make a, a big event, which could have unforeseen consequences in an applied"},{"startTime":3169.546,"endTime":3171.045,"body":"to other situations."},{"startTime":3171.465,"endTime":3174.765,"body":"Do you, do you see that as a parallel or is it something very different?"},{"startTime":3176.805,"endTime":3181.023,"body":"I, I, I have been following that as much as possible because of course, it"},{"startTime":3181.023,"endTime":3181.304,"body":"also is so resonant of the concern with accountability, which I was discussing in my"},{"startTime":3181.304,"endTime":3186.085,"body":"first Gresham lecture."},{"startTime":3186.305,"endTime":3191.901,"body":"So, you know, when one sees this profound, um, failure of justice and, you know,"},{"startTime":3191.901,"endTime":3197.125,"body":"carrying out of injustice, and then the question is how do you rectify that?"},{"startTime":3197.605,"endTime":3201.667,"body":"I mean, I think what's different about it is of course, that in this case"},{"startTime":3201.667,"endTime":3201.938,"body":"there was a specific act of, or specific act, many specific acts of injustice, which"},{"startTime":3201.938,"endTime":3207.085,"body":"now have to be rectified."},{"startTime":3250.945,"endTime":3257.687,"body":"Do you think that the main difference between roles and Solon is that roles was"},{"startTime":3257.687,"endTime":3259.485,"body":"an idealist kinda thing?"},{"startTime":3270.625,"endTime":3272.925,"body":"Is the name of the game and compromise."},{"startTime":3274.485,"endTime":3277.951,"body":"And I think I recognize you from my first lecture, so thank you for, for"},{"startTime":3277.951,"endTime":3278.645,"body":"being here again."},{"startTime":3279.265,"endTime":3281.725,"body":"Um, yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":3292.695,"endTime":3297.87,"body":"Solan, as I emphasize, was a real person in a real concrete political situation, you"},{"startTime":3297.87,"endTime":3298.215,"body":"know, who had to make terms that both sides would accept and not lead to"},{"startTime":3298.215,"endTime":3298.56,"body":"civil war sort of stand down from the possibility of civil war that was perhaps"},{"startTime":3298.56,"endTime":3308.565,"body":"looming."},{"startTime":3309.025,"endTime":3310.485,"body":"Um, so I think that is right."},{"startTime":3365.865,"endTime":3372.138,"body":"So if we, um, you've concentrated a lot on disparities of, of wealth, um, less"},{"startTime":3372.138,"endTime":3375.485,"body":"so on opportunity or yeah, for example, education."},{"startTime":3376.025,"endTime":3383.99,"body":"Are there other differences in distributor of justice which these rules which you have described"},{"startTime":3383.99,"endTime":3386.645,"body":"rules, laws described, would apply?"},{"startTime":3426.025,"endTime":3430.254,"body":"Um, but, but having said that, you know, I, I I did, um, I do"},{"startTime":3430.254,"endTime":3430.535,"body":"think that it's also important that Solen also had these ideas about political inclusion more"},{"startTime":3430.535,"endTime":3434.765,"body":"broadly."},{"startTime":3447.345,"endTime":3454.903,"body":"Um, education is an interesting question because many forms of education in the archaic and"},{"startTime":3454.903,"endTime":3455.406,"body":"classical Greek worlds were restricted to the wealthy, or, or generally available mainly to the"},{"startTime":3455.406,"endTime":3462.965,"body":"wealthy."},{"startTime":3463.145,"endTime":3467.99,"body":"So hiring special tutors for grammar or music, that was something that would only be"},{"startTime":3467.99,"endTime":3469.605,"body":"done if you were wealthy."},{"startTime":3501.335,"endTime":3502.605,"body":"Maybe women we don't know."},{"startTime":3503.785,"endTime":3509.288,"body":"But that was a sort of popular education that put on stage dramatizations of ideas"},{"startTime":3509.288,"endTime":3513.325,"body":"of justice and other values and everyone could engage with them."},{"startTime":3518.465,"endTime":3518.685,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":3522.845,"endTime":3524.965,"body":"Actually, it was the one I was thinking of asking just before."},{"startTime":3525.425,"endTime":3528.085,"body":"I'm an economist, so I'm thinking about the economic angle."},{"startTime":3528.545,"endTime":3533.989,"body":"And these people got into debt for a reason, presumably if they weren't given the"},{"startTime":3533.989,"endTime":3534.352,"body":"skills and the to and the education to change their life chances they were gonna"},{"startTime":3534.352,"endTime":3540.885,"body":"get into debt again."},{"startTime":3540.905,"endTime":3543.805,"body":"So was this a recurring problem, was one issue."},{"startTime":3544.145,"endTime":3549.625,"body":"And the second issue is you talked about the sort of the possibilities of switch"},{"startTime":3549.625,"endTime":3553.645,"body":"wealth between different very wealthy parties to avoid paying for things."},{"startTime":3553.785,"endTime":3557.871,"body":"But I was also thinking at the time about, and you, you you about the"},{"startTime":3557.871,"endTime":3561.685,"body":"way in which wealthy people will put their name on, you know, know right."},{"startTime":3562.005,"endTime":3565.805,"body":"Monuments today, um, be it the Sacklers or others, you know?"},{"startTime":3565.805,"endTime":3566.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3566.265,"endTime":3568.685,"body":"As a way of giving something back perhaps."},{"startTime":3568.825,"endTime":3572.125,"body":"So, you know, it wasn't necessarily about tax, but it's, you know, yeah."},{"startTime":3572.205,"endTime":3574.845,"body":"A way of actually ingratiating themselves perhaps, or whatever."},{"startTime":3576.205,"endTime":3577.605,"body":"Those are both great questions."},{"startTime":3590.505,"endTime":3596.125,"body":"So, um, uh, so there was the Cak thea, the one-off cancellation of debts."},{"startTime":3596.125,"endTime":3601.32,"body":"That was a kind of one-off reset, but then there was the, the abolition of,"},{"startTime":3601.32,"endTime":3601.666,"body":"um, uh, loans secured on the, on the person, which then prevented people from, from"},{"startTime":3601.666,"endTime":3611.365,"body":"falling into, um, the perils of debt slavery of certain kinds in the future."},{"startTime":3614.105,"endTime":3618.173,"body":"Now, it's true that the one-off measure, as far as we know, was never passed"},{"startTime":3618.173,"endTime":3618.445,"body":"again."},{"startTime":3641.365,"endTime":3645.661,"body":"So, so yes, in the classical period, people did get credit of those kinds for"},{"startTime":3645.661,"endTime":3648.525,"body":"donations, but we especially see that in the Hellenistic period."},{"startTime":3664.425,"endTime":3671.239,"body":"But the, in the Hellenistic period, there's a tremendous emphasis on individual donations and people"},{"startTime":3671.239,"endTime":3671.693,"body":"being kind of, uh, honored in monuments and in, um, uh, decrees of cities for"},{"startTime":3671.693,"endTime":3680.325,"body":"making those kinds of donations."},{"startTime":3664.425,"endTime":3671.239,"body":"But the, in the Hellenistic period, there's a tremendous emphasis on individual donations and people"},{"startTime":3671.239,"endTime":3671.693,"body":"being kind of, uh, honored in monuments and in, um, uh, decrees of cities for"},{"startTime":3671.693,"endTime":3680.325,"body":"making those kinds of donations."},{"startTime":3680.345,"endTime":3685.115,"body":"So it becomes an increasingly important way in which people both cement kind of, of"},{"startTime":3685.115,"endTime":3685.434,"body":"course it gives them a kind of political status through using their wealth in those"},{"startTime":3685.434,"endTime":3690.205,"body":"ways."},{"startTime":3680.345,"endTime":3685.115,"body":"So it becomes an increasingly important way in which people both cement kind of, of"},{"startTime":3685.115,"endTime":3685.434,"body":"course it gives them a kind of political status through using their wealth in those"},{"startTime":3685.434,"endTime":3690.205,"body":"ways."},{"startTime":3706.225,"endTime":3706.445,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3706.225,"endTime":3706.445,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3706.505,"endTime":3711.759,"body":"Um, I wanted to follow up on a a point that I think you were"},{"startTime":3711.759,"endTime":3712.11,"body":"making about so long society being one where divisions and relative wealth was much more"},{"startTime":3712.11,"endTime":3717.365,"body":"fixed."},{"startTime":3706.505,"endTime":3711.759,"body":"Um, I wanted to follow up on a a point that I think you were"},{"startTime":3711.759,"endTime":3712.11,"body":"making about so long society being one where divisions and relative wealth was much more"},{"startTime":3712.11,"endTime":3717.365,"body":"fixed."},{"startTime":3717.625,"endTime":3721.277,"body":"If you are rich, it's very, very unlikely you were gonna end up with your"},{"startTime":3721.277,"endTime":3721.765,"body":"children's slavery."},{"startTime":3717.625,"endTime":3721.277,"body":"If you are rich, it's very, very unlikely you were gonna end up with your"},{"startTime":3721.277,"endTime":3721.765,"body":"children's slavery."},{"startTime":3721.765,"endTime":3722.245,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3721.765,"endTime":3722.245,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3722.465,"endTime":3727.195,"body":"And I was wondering whether, we are so interested now in his ideas, because we're"},{"startTime":3727.195,"endTime":3727.51,"body":"feeling that a little bit now, social mobility going down, the drivers of social mobility"},{"startTime":3727.51,"endTime":3727.826,"body":"being linked to genetics, et cetera, et cetera, and whether actually rules was a bit"},{"startTime":3727.826,"endTime":3740.125,"body":"of an anomaly just because of the time he was writing."},{"startTime":3722.465,"endTime":3727.195,"body":"And I was wondering whether, we are so interested now in his ideas, because we're"},{"startTime":3727.195,"endTime":3727.51,"body":"feeling that a little bit now, social mobility going down, the drivers of social mobility"},{"startTime":3727.51,"endTime":3727.826,"body":"being linked to genetics, et cetera, et cetera, and whether actually rules was a bit"},{"startTime":3727.826,"endTime":3740.125,"body":"of an anomaly just because of the time he was writing."},{"startTime":3744.075,"endTime":3744.805,"body":"Yeah, thank you."},{"startTime":3744.075,"endTime":3744.805,"body":"Yeah, thank you."},{"startTime":3744.805,"endTime":3745.445,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":3744.805,"endTime":3745.445,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":3745.505,"endTime":3749.875,"body":"So you're picking up on the point that I was making about the, the kind"},{"startTime":3749.875,"endTime":3750.166,"body":"of caveat that, you know, when we think about Greek society, they were concerned about"},{"startTime":3750.166,"endTime":3750.458,"body":"people falling below the floor, but they, they didn't expect that many people would actually"},{"startTime":3750.458,"endTime":3760.365,"body":"kind of rise to the top."},{"startTime":3760.465,"endTime":3762.965,"body":"And it's, I I don't know about the genetics point."},{"startTime":3763.025,"endTime":3765.285,"body":"I'm not, I'm not familiar with what you're referring to there."},{"startTime":3778.685,"endTime":3782.365,"body":"And again, that goes back to the need for transparency about these things."},{"startTime":3797.965,"endTime":3802.165,"body":"And so, again, we need that clear sightedness in order to tell us this is"},{"startTime":3802.165,"endTime":3806.365,"body":"not really possible to the same extent, in the same ways we're not seeing it."},{"startTime":3814.405,"endTime":3817.89,"body":"I hadn't meant to make the point of the parallel, but I think you're right"},{"startTime":3817.89,"endTime":3819.285,"body":"actually, um, to point it out,"},{"startTime":3820.295,"endTime":3822.045,"body":"Let's go to the, over the back."},{"startTime":3822.045,"endTime":3823.725,"body":"That'd be the last question, if you don't mind."},{"startTime":3825.105,"endTime":3828.516,"body":"Um, I just wanted to get your take on a point that ties into one"},{"startTime":3828.516,"endTime":3831.245,"body":"of the last things you're referring to about that civic participation point."},{"startTime":3831.245,"endTime":3831.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3831.405,"endTime":3835.485,"body":"And kind of solen kind of encouraging that more so versus the apathy."},{"startTime":3835.525,"endTime":3838.77,"body":"I mean, this year's a big year for kind of elections across the globe, particularly"},{"startTime":3838.77,"endTime":3840.285,"body":"in the UK and the US Yeah."},{"startTime":3858.395,"endTime":3860.245,"body":"Yeah, that's a, that's a great question."},{"startTime":3860.545,"endTime":3865.466,"body":"And you know, I think that that idea that the idea that you have to"},{"startTime":3865.466,"endTime":3865.795,"body":"take sides could translate into an idea of compulsory voting as, as exists in Australia,"},{"startTime":3865.795,"endTime":3871.045,"body":"of course."},{"startTime":3871.265,"endTime":3872.125,"body":"Um, for example."},{"startTime":3872.665,"endTime":3876.885,"body":"Um, I think that's a very natural, um, application of that thought."},{"startTime":3876.905,"endTime":3880.778,"body":"And I think very much for the same reason that actually people shouldn't be able"},{"startTime":3880.778,"endTime":3882.845,"body":"to stand back and say, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":3882.985,"endTime":3885.805,"body":"I'm just gonna see what happens, you know, let other people decide."},{"startTime":3908.165,"endTime":3912.207,"body":"I think that is in fact, um, a way in which Solens idea may could"},{"startTime":3912.207,"endTime":3913.285,"body":"make sense to us."},{"startTime":3918.465,"endTime":3923.591,"body":"But actually, you know, we do have the idea that people should, you know, ultimately"},{"startTime":3923.591,"endTime":3923.933,"body":"conclude which side they stand on in an election and, and play a role in,"},{"startTime":3923.933,"endTime":3930.085,"body":"in that civic determination."},{"startTime":3943.305,"endTime":3947.661,"body":"And so I think that idea does have a, an ancient Greek and especially Athenian"},{"startTime":3947.661,"endTime":3950.565,"body":"resonance, um, that, that we, that we could learn from"},{"startTime":3959.095,"endTime":3964.297,"body":"Gives us a good opportunity to exercise our rights, thank you very much for telling"},{"startTime":3964.297,"endTime":3967.765,"body":"us a good way to go and a wonderful lecture."},{"startTime":3968.265,"endTime":3972.65,"body":"We look forward to March when you're giving two, and I hope you'll join us,"},{"startTime":3972.65,"endTime":3974.405,"body":"uh, when Melissa is back again."},{"startTime":3975.615,"endTime":3976.325,"body":"Thank you very much."}]}