{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.625,"endTime":9.271,"body":"So I am gonna start with really unpacking the title of the talk and the"},{"startTime":9.271,"endTime":9.515,"body":"kind of accompanying image, which I guess all of you will have seen since you"},{"startTime":9.515,"endTime":13.405,"body":"are here."},{"startTime":13.865,"endTime":17.536,"body":"Um, both of these, I think, do some work together to illustrate the arguments that"},{"startTime":17.536,"endTime":19.005,"body":"I wanna make in this lecture."},{"startTime":19.865,"endTime":22.925,"body":"So first of all, the title, the Visual Politics of Refugee Hood."},{"startTime":23.025,"endTime":27.03,"body":"Um, I think a simple question to ask here is, who is the figure of"},{"startTime":27.03,"endTime":27.565,"body":"the refugee?"},{"startTime":27.595,"endTime":32.205,"body":"Because somehow the answer is not, you know, it's not a simple definition."},{"startTime":32.634,"endTime":35.565,"body":"Some would sort of think of it as a refugee, as a legal term."},{"startTime":35.625,"endTime":40.365,"body":"So referring to the Geneva Convention of 19 60, 51, sorry."},{"startTime":40.465,"endTime":45.34,"body":"Um, that, you know, is the main sort of legal in the main sort of"},{"startTime":45.34,"endTime":46.965,"body":"international instrument of refugee law."},{"startTime":46.965,"endTime":51.365,"body":"It says who a refugee is and what kinds of protections they're entitled to."},{"startTime":52.465,"endTime":57.203,"body":"Um, but I suppose in Collo, and, you know, we know what this is, this"},{"startTime":57.203,"endTime":57.519,"body":"is people fleeing war or conflict, or people, um, subject to persecutions of various thoughts,"},{"startTime":57.519,"endTime":63.205,"body":"political, religious, et cetera."},{"startTime":64.485,"endTime":68.733,"body":"The Gresham College lecture that you're listening to right now is giving you knowledge and"},{"startTime":68.733,"endTime":69.016,"body":"insight from one of the world's leading academic experts, making it takes a lot of"},{"startTime":69.016,"endTime":73.265,"body":"time."},{"startTime":73.925,"endTime":77.206,"body":"But because we want to encourage a love of learning, we think it's well worth"},{"startTime":77.206,"endTime":77.425,"body":"it."},{"startTime":78.405,"endTime":81.545,"body":"We never make you pay for lectures, although donations are needed."},{"startTime":82.045,"endTime":85.345,"body":"All we ask in return is this, send a link to this lecture to someone"},{"startTime":85.345,"endTime":86.225,"body":"you think would benefit."},{"startTime":86.605,"endTime":90.255,"body":"And if you haven't already, click the follow or subscribe button from wherever you are"},{"startTime":90.255,"endTime":90.985,"body":"listening right now."},{"startTime":92.165,"endTime":93.985,"body":"Now, let's get back to the lecture."},{"startTime":96.465,"endTime":100.885,"body":"But I suppose in colloquial language, the people we may refer to as a refugee"},{"startTime":100.885,"endTime":101.18,"body":"might not be someone who's fleeing war or persecution, but nonetheless, they have been forced"},{"startTime":101.18,"endTime":106.485,"body":"to leave their homes."},{"startTime":106.625,"endTime":111.769,"body":"So a really good example in contemporary times is, uh, people who are leaving their,"},{"startTime":111.769,"endTime":112.112,"body":"their homes due to the climate crisis, they're not covered under the definition, um, of,"},{"startTime":112.112,"endTime":118.285,"body":"of the Geneva Convention."},{"startTime":119.265,"endTime":123.477,"body":"So we can see that even within the kind of legal definition there is, you"},{"startTime":123.477,"endTime":126.285,"body":"know, a kind of a bit of room, I suppose."},{"startTime":127.305,"endTime":131.793,"body":"Um, and then if we think a little bit, um, about, I suppose the history"},{"startTime":131.793,"endTime":135.085,"body":"of this definition, I think it's important to think about it."},{"startTime":135.295,"endTime":140.237,"body":"51 was a Geneva Convention, but 1967, there was a protocol that extended the definition"},{"startTime":140.237,"endTime":141.885,"body":"of who is a refugee."},{"startTime":142.225,"endTime":147.615,"body":"So the original definition was really designed, um, to, as it says in the quote,"},{"startTime":147.615,"endTime":147.975,"body":"you know, to protect mainly European refugees in the aftermath of the world of World"},{"startTime":147.975,"endTime":153.725,"body":"War ii."},{"startTime":154.065,"endTime":155.805,"body":"And then there was a kind of expansion."},{"startTime":156.305,"endTime":161.333,"body":"Um, we can see the kind of history of that in, in, in the way"},{"startTime":161.333,"endTime":161.669,"body":"the convention works today, for example, a a country like Turkey has a kind of"},{"startTime":161.669,"endTime":169.045,"body":"regional limitation to who it considers a refugee."},{"startTime":170.065,"endTime":175.422,"body":"Um, and then I think thinking about sort of contemporary events, if we think, I"},{"startTime":175.422,"endTime":175.779,"body":"don't know how many people knew already before, um, the kind of events that are"},{"startTime":175.779,"endTime":176.136,"body":"happening in Raza and the genocide of the Palestinian people, that there are, in fact,"},{"startTime":176.136,"endTime":187.565,"body":"two refugee agencies operating."},{"startTime":187.565,"endTime":192.77,"body":"There's U-N-H-C-R, which we all have heard of, the High Commission of Refugees, but there's"},{"startTime":192.77,"endTime":193.117,"body":"also Anwar, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency that was built precisely, um, that"},{"startTime":193.117,"endTime":200.405,"body":"was, that's there for Palestinian refugees only."},{"startTime":200.705,"endTime":201.525,"body":"So what does that mean?"},{"startTime":201.625,"endTime":206.005,"body":"Why do we have randomly a separate organization for Palestinian refugees?"},{"startTime":206.065,"endTime":208.045,"body":"And I think, again, history tells us."},{"startTime":208.185,"endTime":214.113,"body":"So when the Israeli state came into being, um, they lobbied for it for the"},{"startTime":214.113,"endTime":214.509,"body":"same organization to not look after Jewish refugees as the ones that were looking after"},{"startTime":214.509,"endTime":223.205,"body":"the refugees that were being displaced from Israel."},{"startTime":223.345,"endTime":229.795,"body":"So you can see already that it's a, although enshrined under, um, international law, the"},{"startTime":229.795,"endTime":231.085,"body":"definition is political."},{"startTime":231.305,"endTime":235.436,"body":"And I think that's worth thinking as we move through the keeping in mind as"},{"startTime":235.436,"endTime":237.365,"body":"we move through the, um, lecture today."},{"startTime":238.025,"endTime":242.335,"body":"And then we turn to this sort of, um, turn the visual politics of refugee"},{"startTime":242.335,"endTime":243.485,"body":"hood, the visual politics."},{"startTime":243.795,"endTime":244.845,"body":"What do I mean by that?"},{"startTime":244.995,"endTime":250.005,"body":"Well, our compassion for the life of various people, oops, around the world, um, is"},{"startTime":250.005,"endTime":250.34,"body":"somehow mediated and shaped, um, if not dictated to a large extent, I would say"},{"startTime":250.34,"endTime":255.685,"body":"by media."},{"startTime":256.385,"endTime":262.333,"body":"So, um, whether it's, you know, TVs, state media broadcasts, radio or social media more"},{"startTime":262.333,"endTime":262.73,"body":"and more, um, and so there is a kind of certain visual language somehow that,"},{"startTime":262.73,"endTime":272.645,"body":"um, that sort of accompanies the reporting of people in need."},{"startTime":272.905,"endTime":276.645,"body":"Um, and we can sort of think about how that sort of plays out."},{"startTime":276.745,"endTime":281.638,"body":"For example, if we think about sort of refugee hood, then, you know, the difference"},{"startTime":281.638,"endTime":286.205,"body":"in response within the uk, for example, to Ukrainian refugees as opposed toran refugees."},{"startTime":286.205,"endTime":290.83,"body":"Could be one example around the time that the Ukrainian War started, I was traveling"},{"startTime":290.83,"endTime":293.605,"body":"a lot between, um, Rotterdam and the, and London."},{"startTime":293.945,"endTime":295.125,"body":"So I was on the Euro sign."},{"startTime":295.205,"endTime":299.662,"body":"I would sort of come off the Euro sign and see these people holding, you"},{"startTime":299.662,"endTime":303.525,"body":"know, um, banners saying, refugees welcome in the colors of the Ukrainian flag."},{"startTime":303.545,"endTime":304.725,"body":"And it was really nice to see."},{"startTime":304.785,"endTime":309.746,"body":"But of course, someone like me who has been working in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan,"},{"startTime":309.746,"endTime":310.077,"body":"or the edges of Afghanistan, especially working with refugees from those places, I was a"},{"startTime":310.077,"endTime":317.685,"body":"little bit like, okay, you know, what's happening here?"},{"startTime":317.985,"endTime":320.725,"body":"Why aren't people standing here with the colors of other flags?"},{"startTime":320.745,"endTime":323.987,"body":"So of course there is a politics at play in all of this and something"},{"startTime":323.987,"endTime":325.285,"body":"that we need to think about."},{"startTime":326.185,"endTime":330.555,"body":"Um, and then I suppose this, this, uh, I wanted to come to this image,"},{"startTime":330.555,"endTime":330.846,"body":"which was not necessarily an image I wanted to use to be sort of, um,"},{"startTime":330.846,"endTime":336.965,"body":"to be used alongside the lecture today."},{"startTime":337.305,"endTime":341.215,"body":"But somehow I was told that, and I think probably rightly so, I was told"},{"startTime":341.215,"endTime":344.605,"body":"that this is an image that people sort of associate with refugee hood."},{"startTime":344.605,"endTime":349.142,"body":"And I think that's true, but why did I, why was I uncomfortable with this"},{"startTime":349.142,"endTime":349.445,"body":"image?"},{"startTime":349.605,"endTime":354.445,"body":"I think the first, the first point to make is a, a question around temporality."},{"startTime":355.105,"endTime":357.005,"body":"Um, so we see makeshift tense."},{"startTime":357.045,"endTime":362.445,"body":"There's this idea that, you know, being a refugee is essentially, uh, a situation of"},{"startTime":362.445,"endTime":362.805,"body":"emergency."},{"startTime":362.805,"endTime":364.405,"body":"It's a kind of crisis situation."},{"startTime":364.705,"endTime":366.565,"body":"And crucially it's a temporary situation."},{"startTime":366.705,"endTime":371.981,"body":"But we know, as Chris alluded to in the introduction, that actually this, these become"},{"startTime":371.981,"endTime":372.685,"body":"permanent situations."},{"startTime":372.865,"endTime":379.079,"body":"So, um, the largest, one of the largest refugee camps in the world dab in"},{"startTime":379.079,"endTime":381.565,"body":"Kenya, um, was established in 1991."},{"startTime":381.565,"endTime":383.045,"body":"So that's 25 years ago."},{"startTime":383.755,"endTime":388.925,"body":"Zuri refugee camp, um, in Jordan for Syrian refugees was, um, set up in 2012."},{"startTime":388.945,"endTime":390.085,"body":"So that's 12 years ago."},{"startTime":390.865,"endTime":395.743,"body":"Um, but I think there's also something about this kind of visual language that shows"},{"startTime":395.743,"endTime":397.045,"body":"refugees as dependent, right?"},{"startTime":397.325,"endTime":401.365,"body":"Dependent on the U-N-H-C-R, dependent on handouts, dependent on our charity."},{"startTime":401.985,"endTime":406.456,"body":"Um, and so the reality of course, if you speak to people in these situations"},{"startTime":406.456,"endTime":408.245,"body":"is that many fend for themselves."},{"startTime":408.765,"endTime":410.725,"body":"'cause a lot of people are internally displaced."},{"startTime":410.725,"endTime":415.925,"body":"They're at the edges in borderlands where these kinds of agencies are not operating."},{"startTime":417.225,"endTime":421.294,"body":"Um, but there are other issues at play as well that sort of speak about"},{"startTime":421.294,"endTime":421.565,"body":"this idea of kind of spectatorship and su suffering that I will sort of come"},{"startTime":421.565,"endTime":427.805,"body":"back to at the end of the, the lecture."},{"startTime":427.865,"endTime":432.645,"body":"But somehow there is this kind of erosion of, of the agency of a person."},{"startTime":432.985,"endTime":436.165,"body":"And we often see refugees as sort of abject victims."},{"startTime":436.665,"endTime":441.343,"body":"But of course, the reality is that we live in a world of hardening borders,"},{"startTime":441.343,"endTime":441.655,"body":"um, where, you know, the militarization of borders all across the world does of course"},{"startTime":441.655,"endTime":446.645,"body":"produce violence."},{"startTime":446.745,"endTime":448.325,"body":"It does produce suffering."},{"startTime":448.345,"endTime":454.14,"body":"So, um, this image is, it's, this map is from a, a report called a"},{"startTime":454.14,"endTime":456.845,"body":"World World, um, by the Transnational Institute."},{"startTime":457.025,"endTime":462.136,"body":"Um, and it was published in 2020, and it shows the many, many borders that,"},{"startTime":462.136,"endTime":465.885,"body":"you know, that are, um, sort of established the world over."},{"startTime":465.985,"endTime":470.735,"body":"And in the report, they say over the last 50 years, 63 border walls have"},{"startTime":470.735,"endTime":471.685,"body":"been built worldwide."},{"startTime":472.265,"endTime":475.805,"body":"So kind of beyond, I suppose, the euphoria of the Berlin Wall coming down."},{"startTime":475.825,"endTime":479.845,"body":"And there was all this rhetoric of a borderless world, actually, something else has happened."},{"startTime":480.225,"endTime":485.87,"body":"And what we find, especially as the Berlin Wall came down and the kind of"},{"startTime":485.87,"endTime":486.246,"body":"Europe became a borderless area, what happened was that the edges of Europe were sort"},{"startTime":486.246,"endTime":492.645,"body":"of pushed outwards."},{"startTime":492.645,"endTime":494.885,"body":"So the borders of Europe were outsourced."},{"startTime":494.885,"endTime":496.685,"body":"That would be the kind of academic term."},{"startTime":497.785,"endTime":502.495,"body":"And so here, um, we can see that, you know, European border can be seen"},{"startTime":502.495,"endTime":507.205,"body":"in Niger and Africa where Frontex operates, which is the European border of security agency."},{"startTime":507.355,"endTime":509.165,"body":"It's in Turkey, et cetera."},{"startTime":509.825,"endTime":515.211,"body":"Um, so here, I suppose I just want to, um, stop a minute and try"},{"startTime":515.211,"endTime":515.57,"body":"to sort of complicate, um, our understanding of what a refugee life and movement looks"},{"startTime":515.57,"endTime":515.929,"body":"like, um, when there are sort of crossing these militarized borders and thinking really with"},{"startTime":515.929,"endTime":516.288,"body":"the realities of the journeys that people undertake across what are sort of militarized borders"},{"startTime":516.288,"endTime":533.165,"body":"and often very hostile terrains."},{"startTime":534.785,"endTime":538.045,"body":"Um, so this image is from the Pakistan Iran border."},{"startTime":538.115,"endTime":541.542,"body":"It's a place where I've done a lot of work over the last few years,"},{"startTime":541.542,"endTime":544.285,"body":"and it's also a place where walls and fences are being built."},{"startTime":544.705,"endTime":549.103,"body":"And one of the things we see, and probably the US Mexico border is the"},{"startTime":549.103,"endTime":549.396,"body":"most, well-known example, but it's happening here as well, is that as the borders, um,"},{"startTime":549.396,"endTime":549.689,"body":"are militarized, as walls and fences are built, people are funnel being funneled more and"},{"startTime":549.689,"endTime":561.125,"body":"more into areas that are more dangerous, that are more remote."},{"startTime":561.665,"endTime":565.125,"body":"Um, and therefore, of course, um, they're suffering more and they're also dying."},{"startTime":565.905,"endTime":570.346,"body":"Um, so at the Pakistan Iran border, for example, knowing how to forte the coming"},{"startTime":570.346,"endTime":570.642,"body":"of a dust storm is an absolutely crucial skill for those who are helping people,"},{"startTime":570.642,"endTime":570.938,"body":"um, cross the border, as is a kind of very embodied knowledge of the rugged"},{"startTime":570.938,"endTime":579.525,"body":"terrain."},{"startTime":579.545,"endTime":583.805,"body":"So the driver of this particular van knows that terrain inside out, right?"},{"startTime":583.805,"endTime":586.965,"body":"That's the only reason they can, they can navigate across this land."},{"startTime":588.185,"endTime":592.775,"body":"Um, but I will discuss some of these issues perhaps now through a border that"},{"startTime":592.775,"endTime":593.081,"body":"perhaps you would know better than the Pakistan Iran border, which is the sort of"},{"startTime":593.081,"endTime":593.387,"body":"southern border of the, of Europe, which is essentially the Mediterranean seeds, of course, in"},{"startTime":593.387,"endTime":603.485,"body":"the news all the time."},{"startTime":603.485,"endTime":608.846,"body":"When we think about kind of, um, migration related stories, the, the Mediterranean was named"},{"startTime":608.846,"endTime":609.203,"body":"the Solid Sea by a group called Multiplicity, which is a group of architects and"},{"startTime":609.203,"endTime":614.565,"body":"artists."},{"startTime":615.225,"endTime":617.205,"body":"And why did they call it the Solid Sea?"},{"startTime":617.205,"endTime":622.658,"body":"Because they were sort of talking about the fact that, um, as the Mediterranean comes"},{"startTime":622.658,"endTime":623.021,"body":"under a lot of different legal jurisdictions, as its sort of, you know, um, being"},{"startTime":623.021,"endTime":633.565,"body":"surveilled, as all of these regimes are coming together, the sea is almost becoming solid."},{"startTime":633.705,"endTime":638.013,"body":"So sort of against the idea of, you know, the metaphor of this sea as"},{"startTime":638.013,"endTime":640.885,"body":"being this open space, there was open and fluid space."},{"startTime":640.885,"endTime":645.925,"body":"They were talking about it being solidified through these certain practices that were just making"},{"startTime":645.925,"endTime":647.605,"body":"this into a surveilled space."},{"startTime":648.065,"endTime":649.445,"body":"So it's a highly surveilled space."},{"startTime":649.445,"endTime":653.845,"body":"There are cameras, thermal cameras, satellite imagery, radars, drones."},{"startTime":654.035,"endTime":655.885,"body":"They're all looking upon this space."},{"startTime":656.345,"endTime":660.975,"body":"And yet one of the most observed in one of the most observed spaces of"},{"startTime":660.975,"endTime":663.445,"body":"the world, somehow boats, sink, people drown, unseen."},{"startTime":663.985,"endTime":667.847,"body":"Um, and there was a case of the left to die boat, uh, which at"},{"startTime":667.847,"endTime":670.165,"body":"the time in 2011 was an incredibly shocking case."},{"startTime":670.345,"endTime":674.689,"body":"Now, of course, it's kind of become quite normal, unfortunately, but it was a boat"},{"startTime":674.689,"endTime":678.165,"body":"that had been left to drift in the Mediterranean for two weeks."},{"startTime":678.665,"endTime":683.765,"body":"Um, and a group of, again, architects and designers, um, called forensic ocean oceanography, part"},{"startTime":683.765,"endTime":684.105,"body":"of the group forensic architecture, mapped this, um, the course of this boat as it"},{"startTime":684.105,"endTime":689.205,"body":"drifted."},{"startTime":689.225,"endTime":693.633,"body":"So they worked with, um, oceanographers, they worked with satellite imagery and tried to work"},{"startTime":693.633,"endTime":693.927,"body":"out where the boat drifted for two weeks, and then tried to work out who"},{"startTime":693.927,"endTime":699.805,"body":"was looking at the boat, right?"},{"startTime":699.805,"endTime":701.525,"body":"Who was able to see that boat."},{"startTime":702.145,"endTime":707.371,"body":"And they showed that, you know, um, Frontex, the border agency of the eu, the"},{"startTime":707.371,"endTime":711.205,"body":"NATO Maritime Surveillance Group, you know, it drifted into their zone."},{"startTime":711.585,"endTime":715.693,"body":"Um, Maltese search and rescue, all of these people in their zones of influence, the"},{"startTime":715.693,"endTime":717.885,"body":"boat had drifted, but no one had helped."},{"startTime":718.265,"endTime":723.024,"body":"And so they sort of proved beyond all reasonable doubt, I would say that there"},{"startTime":723.024,"endTime":725.245,"body":"was an active politics of not helping."},{"startTime":726.345,"endTime":731.021,"body":"So the reason why I'm telling you this story is that there is a kind"},{"startTime":731.021,"endTime":731.333,"body":"of politics of unseeing around, um, refugees that sort of underpins some of some of"},{"startTime":731.333,"endTime":731.645,"body":"the things that we're sort of speaking about, and some of the most highly sort"},{"startTime":731.645,"endTime":742.245,"body":"of surveilled places in the world."},{"startTime":742.435,"endTime":745.085,"body":"Somehow a boat drifts for two weeks undetected."},{"startTime":745.385,"endTime":749.535,"body":"But next to that, of course, there's a politics of hyper visibility, because we've all"},{"startTime":749.535,"endTime":750.365,"body":"seen the pictures."},{"startTime":750.405,"endTime":754.959,"body":"I don't want to show them of refugees in, you know, in a lot of"},{"startTime":754.959,"endTime":757.085,"body":"kind of difficulty, violence, suffering, et cetera."},{"startTime":757.105,"endTime":762.055,"body":"So these two things are happening side by side, and that's something that's sort of"},{"startTime":762.055,"endTime":763.045,"body":"worth thinking about."},{"startTime":764.705,"endTime":769.907,"body":"Um, so, um, somehow I've been thinking a lot about this, and for me, I"},{"startTime":769.907,"endTime":770.254,"body":"think one of the things that, um, I decided to do was to really think"},{"startTime":770.254,"endTime":779.965,"body":"about the kind of, um, the specificities of the journeys people go on, right?"},{"startTime":779.965,"endTime":784.865,"body":"Rather than thinking about, um, refugee hood on a kind of numbers sort of issue"},{"startTime":784.865,"endTime":787.805,"body":"to really think about the specificity of individual lives."},{"startTime":788.345,"endTime":793.022,"body":"And so I, um, and I talk about these as journeys of undocumented migration, and"},{"startTime":793.022,"endTime":795.205,"body":"there's a reason for using that term."},{"startTime":795.785,"endTime":801.453,"body":"It essentially is referring to people who move across borders without the necessary documents or"},{"startTime":801.453,"endTime":802.965,"body":"without passports, without visas."},{"startTime":803.345,"endTime":807.941,"body":"And it's a political choice to use this term because it means that you are"},{"startTime":807.941,"endTime":808.248,"body":"not getting into a kind of argument about whether something is legal or unle or"},{"startTime":808.248,"endTime":812.845,"body":"illegal."},{"startTime":813.265,"endTime":819.219,"body":"And you're also not talking about, um, the circumstances of why people are moving, but"},{"startTime":819.219,"endTime":819.616,"body":"really the reality, the kind of the, the practicalities of how people move across, um,"},{"startTime":819.616,"endTime":826.365,"body":"across militarized borders."},{"startTime":826.745,"endTime":830.975,"body":"So when you speak to people like that who are on journeys of undocumented migration,"},{"startTime":830.975,"endTime":831.257,"body":"one of the things you realize is that movement is never this kind of simple"},{"startTime":831.257,"endTime":831.539,"body":"linear journey from A to B, but instead it consists of stops and starts and"},{"startTime":831.539,"endTime":840.845,"body":"what are often impenetrable walls."},{"startTime":841.265,"endTime":845.07,"body":"So of course, those walls are like that map I showed you earlier, kind of"},{"startTime":845.07,"endTime":846.085,"body":"borders, fences, et cetera."},{"startTime":846.345,"endTime":851.61,"body":"But they're also to do with bureaucratic regimes, you know, administrative regimes that create kind"},{"startTime":851.61,"endTime":853.365,"body":"of obstacles along the way."},{"startTime":854.705,"endTime":858.958,"body":"And so the image that you see on the screen is from, um, a conversation"},{"startTime":858.958,"endTime":862.645,"body":"I had with a Syrian activist in Turkey quite some time ago now."},{"startTime":863.065,"endTime":866.125,"body":"Um, and he's sort of relating his journey of escape."},{"startTime":866.265,"endTime":869.852,"body":"So you can see that there is no simple line from A to B, there"},{"startTime":869.852,"endTime":872.005,"body":"is a lot of kind of circulation and movement."},{"startTime":872.505,"endTime":877.037,"body":"And at the same time, this movement as you, you can hopefully you can see"},{"startTime":877.037,"endTime":880.965,"body":"from the image is amongst sort of three countries, Turkey, Syria, and Lebanon."},{"startTime":881.425,"endTime":885.976,"body":"And this person is moving around trying to make a life, trying to somehow, you"},{"startTime":885.976,"endTime":886.279,"body":"know, do the, do the work that he was always doing, which was that of"},{"startTime":886.279,"endTime":892.045,"body":"activism around the Syrian revolution."},{"startTime":892.665,"endTime":897.97,"body":"Um, and yeah, so I suppose one of the things that through these conversations, not"},{"startTime":897.97,"endTime":898.324,"body":"only with him but with others as well, one of the things that have sort"},{"startTime":898.324,"endTime":898.677,"body":"of come to realize is that somehow the racial, and it is a racial production"},{"startTime":898.677,"endTime":911.765,"body":"of contemporary borders, is designed to keep people moving."},{"startTime":911.985,"endTime":915.205,"body":"So we think the borders are there to keep people out, right?"},{"startTime":915.465,"endTime":920.325,"body":"And this is of course the same part, a very brutal part of the same"},{"startTime":920.325,"endTime":923.565,"body":"system, but actually the logic of contemporary borders is circulation."},{"startTime":923.635,"endTime":925.485,"body":"They're designed to keep people moving."},{"startTime":925.825,"endTime":931.951,"body":"So militarized borders, um, deportation regimes and precarious lives come together in a way that"},{"startTime":931.951,"endTime":932.36,"body":"they, they essentially create a global underclass of people who are constantly kept moving, who"},{"startTime":932.36,"endTime":944.205,"body":"are both wanted and unwanted within what I often call the spaces of northern privilege."},{"startTime":944.305,"endTime":946.645,"body":"And we're in one now, obviously."},{"startTime":947.345,"endTime":949.645,"body":"Um, so the northern, what do I mean by that?"},{"startTime":949.805,"endTime":953.725,"body":"I think what I mean is that northern economies function on cheap labor."},{"startTime":953.865,"endTime":954.445,"body":"We know that."},{"startTime":954.545,"endTime":959.553,"body":"So if we think about Britain, you know, if we think about the agricultural industry,"},{"startTime":959.553,"endTime":959.887,"body":"if we think about, um, fruit picking, we think about care homes, um, we think"},{"startTime":959.887,"endTime":966.565,"body":"about the hospitality industry in general."},{"startTime":966.565,"endTime":971.965,"body":"There's a set of people who work there who are often undocumented and therefore are"},{"startTime":971.965,"endTime":972.685,"body":"often exploited."},{"startTime":972.705,"endTime":976.986,"body":"If we think about the edges of Europe, I've done a lot of work in"},{"startTime":976.986,"endTime":977.272,"body":"Turkey, and many of the people working in small scale workshops, there are, again, you"},{"startTime":977.272,"endTime":982.125,"body":"know, refugees essentially."},{"startTime":982.225,"endTime":987.96,"body":"And again, they're producing goods and goods that are gonna be sold to northern economies,"},{"startTime":987.96,"endTime":988.725,"body":"northern spaces."},{"startTime":989.625,"endTime":994.467,"body":"And so what we find in these spaces is that, you know, refugee hood blurs"},{"startTime":994.467,"endTime":996.405,"body":"into modern slavery and back again."},{"startTime":996.465,"endTime":1000.045,"body":"So there's the circulation also of people across these categories."},{"startTime":1000.705,"endTime":1004.245,"body":"And I think this notion of the categorization of people is really important."},{"startTime":1004.305,"endTime":1009.424,"body":"If we go back to the sort of beginning of the lecture where I was"},{"startTime":1009.424,"endTime":1009.765,"body":"speaking about who is or isn't a refugee under the Geneva Convention, what we now"},{"startTime":1009.765,"endTime":1010.107,"body":"find is that the same person, you know, maybe a few years have passed, but"},{"startTime":1010.107,"endTime":1010.448,"body":"essentially the same person is moving across different jurisdictions, different places, and depending on where"},{"startTime":1010.448,"endTime":1010.789,"body":"they are, which ju legal jurisdiction they fall under, um, which organizations purview they fall"},{"startTime":1010.789,"endTime":1030.243,"body":"under."},{"startTime":1030.625,"endTime":1035.995,"body":"You know, they could be sort of categorized as a refugee, as an asylum seeker,"},{"startTime":1035.995,"endTime":1036.353,"body":"as a migrant, um, as you know, um, as as victim of modern slavery, for"},{"startTime":1036.353,"endTime":1041.723,"body":"example."},{"startTime":1043.025,"endTime":1047.265,"body":"So it really kind of helps to think about what this kind of, this idea"},{"startTime":1047.265,"endTime":1047.548,"body":"of kind of categorizing people does in terms of the thing we really want to"},{"startTime":1047.548,"endTime":1053.485,"body":"do, which is help people in need."},{"startTime":1055.145,"endTime":1060.32,"body":"Um, so within the politics of migration and refugee hood and the construction of borders"},{"startTime":1060.32,"endTime":1064.805,"body":"themselves, because crossing borders is what turns into a refugee or a migrant."},{"startTime":1065.505,"endTime":1070.349,"body":"Um, what we find is that maps are incredibly important, um, documents that sort of"},{"startTime":1070.349,"endTime":1070.672,"body":"mediate how we think about these things, and whether that's maps that produce, of course,"},{"startTime":1070.672,"endTime":1070.995,"body":"the border, but maps also in the way that they sort of represent the movement"},{"startTime":1070.995,"endTime":1080.685,"body":"of people."},{"startTime":1081.345,"endTime":1084.405,"body":"Um, because borders, of course, you know, they don't exist in the world."},{"startTime":1084.405,"endTime":1090.845,"body":"They are constructions, are constructions made through kind of bureaucracies through forms of representation."},{"startTime":1091.825,"endTime":1095.8,"body":"Um, and so I will show you a bit more, but this, these kinds of"},{"startTime":1095.8,"endTime":1096.065,"body":"images are kind of mockups of a digital platform that I've been working on for"},{"startTime":1096.065,"endTime":1096.33,"body":"a long time that's trying to think about the movement of people across the globe"},{"startTime":1096.33,"endTime":1105.605,"body":"through other ways to collaging, et cetera."},{"startTime":1105.625,"endTime":1107.045,"body":"But, but I'll come back to that."},{"startTime":1107.665,"endTime":1112.494,"body":"Um, but first I want to sort of talk about the kinds of maps that"},{"startTime":1112.494,"endTime":1112.815,"body":"we see often in sort of media reporting, but also in some academic work around"},{"startTime":1112.815,"endTime":1117.645,"body":"migration."},{"startTime":1117.705,"endTime":1122.869,"body":"So these are often maps, you'll have seen them with like big arrows, all usually"},{"startTime":1122.869,"endTime":1123.214,"body":"pointing towards Europe or North America, you know, showing apparently the movement of people towards"},{"startTime":1123.214,"endTime":1130.445,"body":"the spaces, um, that we are in."},{"startTime":1130.985,"endTime":1134.885,"body":"Um, and what we find is that these maps are highly political documents."},{"startTime":1134.885,"endTime":1135.925,"body":"They're highly selective."},{"startTime":1135.955,"endTime":1141.06,"body":"They don't show, for example, you know, the movement, the large scale and very complex"},{"startTime":1141.06,"endTime":1144.805,"body":"movement of people within regions within the African continent, for example."},{"startTime":1144.865,"endTime":1148.971,"body":"Or if we think of the Syrian refugee speaking about, you know, the, the movement"},{"startTime":1148.971,"endTime":1152.805,"body":"that he was doing was within the de limitate area of one specific region."},{"startTime":1153.265,"endTime":1156.706,"body":"And so, yeah, these are, you know, there, these are documents that have been designed"},{"startTime":1156.706,"endTime":1157.165,"body":"for something."},{"startTime":1157.545,"endTime":1161.602,"body":"And then if we think about people who are fleeing conflicts, so most of them"},{"startTime":1161.602,"endTime":1162.685,"body":"stay within their region."},{"startTime":1162.905,"endTime":1167.805,"body":"So Syrians are mostly to be found in Jordan, in Turkey especially."},{"startTime":1168.185,"endTime":1171.325,"body":"Um, AF France are mostly to be found in Pakistan or Iran."},{"startTime":1171.395,"endTime":1174.845,"body":"Very few actually make it to the spaces of the global north."},{"startTime":1175.985,"endTime":1180.237,"body":"So the question then becomes, you know, why not try to sort of map the"},{"startTime":1180.237,"endTime":1180.521,"body":"parts taken by particular people, as I had shown you in that or that map"},{"startTime":1180.521,"endTime":1180.805,"body":"just now, you know, to really show the reality of, of lives in the move"},{"startTime":1180.805,"endTime":1190.445,"body":"rather than a kind of rhetoric."},{"startTime":1190.825,"endTime":1196.169,"body":"But then also why not map as forensic architecture, forensic oceanography did the kind of"},{"startTime":1196.169,"endTime":1196.526,"body":"surveillance regimes and the risks associated with border crossing, or, you know, why not, you"},{"startTime":1196.526,"endTime":1196.882,"body":"know, map the numbers of people who never made it who've sunk into kind of"},{"startTime":1196.882,"endTime":1208.285,"body":"shallow and watery graves."},{"startTime":1208.865,"endTime":1213.351,"body":"Um, or why not actually try to show some of the complexity of what it"},{"startTime":1213.351,"endTime":1213.65,"body":"really takes to become a refugee in, in, in our societies, which is itself a"},{"startTime":1213.65,"endTime":1222.325,"body":"highly complex system that you essentially need a PhD to work out what's going on."},{"startTime":1222.545,"endTime":1224.725,"body":"So that could be mapped, right?"},{"startTime":1225.905,"endTime":1230.6,"body":"Um, so we've been working, as I said, on a mapping platform that shows the,"},{"startTime":1230.6,"endTime":1230.913,"body":"some of this kind of complexity, bringing together interviews, conversations we've had with people over"},{"startTime":1230.913,"endTime":1231.227,"body":"five and a half years who've been moving across difficult borders, you know, bringing together"},{"startTime":1231.227,"endTime":1241.245,"body":"these interviews with images."},{"startTime":1241.345,"endTime":1244.605,"body":"So this is the backend of the, my, the platform that you wouldn't normally see."},{"startTime":1244.985,"endTime":1250.53,"body":"And it's the kind of repository of text and images that when navigated through, produces"},{"startTime":1250.53,"endTime":1250.9,"body":"what I would say are culturally and socially situated accounts and understandings of the movement"},{"startTime":1250.9,"endTime":1257.925,"body":"of people across the planet."},{"startTime":1258.545,"endTime":1260.685,"body":"Um, and so it produces these kinds of images."},{"startTime":1260.755,"endTime":1265.688,"body":"This is just a still from the, um, from the platform, and you can navigate,"},{"startTime":1265.688,"endTime":1266.017,"body":"and it comes with a story that you've made through picking, um, fragments of texts"},{"startTime":1266.017,"endTime":1272.925,"body":"and images through the, through the database."},{"startTime":1273.225,"endTime":1277.803,"body":"Um, it's still in a bit of a beta version, but if anybody's interested in"},{"startTime":1277.803,"endTime":1280.245,"body":"trying, that's the address, otherwise dot topological atlas.net."},{"startTime":1281.825,"endTime":1286.08,"body":"Um, so it's sort of trying to show that there is no one journey, but"},{"startTime":1286.08,"endTime":1289.485,"body":"lots of different kind of ways of navigating across a particular space."},{"startTime":1289.785,"endTime":1293.371,"body":"By the way, it doesn't work on mobiles before you get your mobiles out, \u003claugh\u003e,"},{"startTime":1293.371,"endTime":1295.045,"body":"you'll have to wait till you're home."},{"startTime":1295.745,"endTime":1301.682,"body":"Um, so I've really been thinking, I suppose not only about the spaces that people"},{"startTime":1301.682,"endTime":1302.078,"body":"pass through, so this kind of spatial understanding through mapping, but also the temporality of"},{"startTime":1302.078,"endTime":1312.765,"body":"migration and refugee hood, which I think is incredibly important to also aspects."},{"startTime":1312.785,"endTime":1318.263,"body":"So I've been working with this notion of the persistent present, which is this idea"},{"startTime":1318.263,"endTime":1318.628,"body":"that, you know, people in these situations are somehow stuck in between, you're stuck in"},{"startTime":1318.628,"endTime":1318.994,"body":"a very particular temporality where making the kinds of, you know, um, the kinds of"},{"startTime":1318.994,"endTime":1319.359,"body":"plans we take for granted what you're gonna do in a week, in a month,"},{"startTime":1319.359,"endTime":1319.724,"body":"in five years is absolutely, is really difficult, if not impossible for people to make,"},{"startTime":1319.724,"endTime":1320.089,"body":"because time becomes a mechanism of control within the border regime, within the circulations of"},{"startTime":1320.089,"endTime":1350.405,"body":"borders, because the price exacted for moving across borders without papers is time."},{"startTime":1350.745,"endTime":1355.245,"body":"So people wait to earn enough money, they await decisions of the asylum applications, or"},{"startTime":1355.245,"endTime":1355.545,"body":"they simply wait for an opportune moment to go further, and you're always kind of"},{"startTime":1355.545,"endTime":1362.445,"body":"waiting and trying to see what to do next."},{"startTime":1363.065,"endTime":1367.742,"body":"And so this temporality of waiting becomes really a key aspect, a key quality of"},{"startTime":1367.742,"endTime":1369.925,"body":"life caught within the violence of borders."},{"startTime":1370.345,"endTime":1374.995,"body":"Um, so the image that you see on the screen is, um, of an Afghan"},{"startTime":1374.995,"endTime":1378.405,"body":"refugee I met in Ukraine and Odessa, so before the war."},{"startTime":1378.905,"endTime":1382.726,"body":"Um, and, you know, she's growing very hesitantly her journey, and at some point she"},{"startTime":1382.726,"endTime":1384.765,"body":"sort of stops and says, shall I write?"},{"startTime":1384.865,"endTime":1386.685,"body":"And I was like, yes, if you want."},{"startTime":1387.065,"endTime":1392.202,"body":"And she writes that number in the corner, 25,000, and that's the amount she paid"},{"startTime":1392.202,"endTime":1395.285,"body":"in dollars to get to Europe to an agent."},{"startTime":1396.065,"endTime":1399.223,"body":"And I met her in Odessa where she was left and told that she was"},{"startTime":1399.223,"endTime":1399.645,"body":"in Europe."},{"startTime":1399.825,"endTime":1402.92,"body":"So you get, you know, and that now she, she was there for a year"},{"startTime":1402.92,"endTime":1404.365,"body":"when I, when I spoke with her."},{"startTime":1404.385,"endTime":1409.135,"body":"So you can see that people are stuck in these kinds of spaces, um, in"},{"startTime":1409.135,"endTime":1410.085,"body":"very difficult circumstances."},{"startTime":1412.225,"endTime":1416.933,"body":"But then the other thing that I've been thinking about a lot is, you know,"},{"startTime":1416.933,"endTime":1417.247,"body":"that when we are thinking about the journeys of migration of refugee hood, where we"},{"startTime":1417.247,"endTime":1425.41,"body":"start thinking about these, um, these journeys, these lives really, really matters."},{"startTime":1425.865,"endTime":1430.565,"body":"So starting not when people arrive at the shores of Europe or in the spaces"},{"startTime":1430.565,"endTime":1434.325,"body":"of northern privilege, but perhaps starting where people actually start their journey."},{"startTime":1434.545,"endTime":1437.765,"body":"So this image is, um, from a place called Marike."},{"startTime":1437.765,"endTime":1440.245,"body":"It's in Pakistan in the, in the province of Punjab."},{"startTime":1440.345,"endTime":1443.925,"body":"Um, and it's just north of the Pakistani city of Lahore."},{"startTime":1443.985,"endTime":1446.405,"body":"So Lahore is kind of expanding northwards."},{"startTime":1446.515,"endTime":1450.476,"body":"It's because it's kind of, um, sort of curtailed by, um, the Indian border on"},{"startTime":1450.476,"endTime":1453.645,"body":"one side and the river Ravi kind of going on the other."},{"startTime":1453.705,"endTime":1458.298,"body":"So the, the city can only expand northwards, and it's sort of engulfing these agricultural"},{"startTime":1458.298,"endTime":1458.605,"body":"areas."},{"startTime":1459.305,"endTime":1464.72,"body":"Um, these are areas that rely, um, they're very well known for the kind of"},{"startTime":1464.72,"endTime":1466.525,"body":"basmati rice, rice they produce."},{"startTime":1467.065,"endTime":1471.532,"body":"Um, but as you can see that through the kind of rapid sort of urbanization"},{"startTime":1471.532,"endTime":1475.405,"body":"and industrialization, there's a kind of toxicity in the soil and the air."},{"startTime":1475.665,"endTime":1479.205,"body":"But also this is a place that's subject to, of course, the climate crisis."},{"startTime":1479.505,"endTime":1483.245,"body":"And here, it, it has meant that the monsoon patterns are shifting."},{"startTime":1483.345,"endTime":1487.845,"body":"So the monsoon is drifting northwards, um, which means crop yields are going down."},{"startTime":1488.585,"endTime":1493.029,"body":"And so as all of this is happening, as as people lose their land, as"},{"startTime":1493.029,"endTime":1493.326,"body":"they lose their livelihoods, they begin of course to feel dis displaced when everything around"},{"startTime":1493.326,"endTime":1499.845,"body":"you changes and you cannot recognize it anymore."},{"startTime":1499.845,"endTime":1504.725,"body":"There's no, you know, means of having a livelihood, then you already feel displaced."},{"startTime":1504.725,"endTime":1509.525,"body":"And this kind of feeling of displacement then leads to the kind of large scale"},{"startTime":1509.525,"endTime":1513.685,"body":"movement of people that we're kind of talking about today around refugee hood."},{"startTime":1514.185,"endTime":1518.035,"body":"And so for me, it was really important to think with these spaces as well"},{"startTime":1518.035,"endTime":1521.885,"body":"as I was trying to understand what refugee hood is or what it means today."},{"startTime":1522.905,"endTime":1527.942,"body":"Um, and then of course, we might think about the places that people pass through"},{"startTime":1527.942,"endTime":1532.645,"body":"along these journeys so far before they come anywhere near Europe or North America."},{"startTime":1533.185,"endTime":1537.826,"body":"So this is, um, a bus station on the outskirts of the Pakistani mega city"},{"startTime":1537.826,"endTime":1538.445,"body":"of Karachi."},{"startTime":1538.445,"endTime":1541.713,"body":"So now we're at the south of the country, um, on the shores of the"},{"startTime":1541.713,"endTime":1544.765,"body":"Arabian Sea, and it's a bus station where I've spent a lot of time."},{"startTime":1545.355,"endTime":1547.925,"body":"I've hung out there a lot, drinking chai, talking to people."},{"startTime":1548.545,"endTime":1553.445,"body":"Um, and what you sort of understand when you spend time here is that this"},{"startTime":1553.445,"endTime":1553.771,"body":"is a space where kind of the, the smuggling of goods overlaps with the clandestine"},{"startTime":1553.771,"endTime":1559.325,"body":"movement of people."},{"startTime":1559.425,"endTime":1565.221,"body":"And it's a place where, um, you know, whole community is somehow coalescing around these,"},{"startTime":1565.221,"endTime":1570.245,"body":"um, smuggling practices that supports both an economy and a way of life."},{"startTime":1570.425,"endTime":1575.636,"body":"So if you think back that, um, if you think back to that map of"},{"startTime":1575.636,"endTime":1575.983,"body":"the bordered world, the Pakistan Iran border, which is the one where goods are coming,"},{"startTime":1575.983,"endTime":1576.331,"body":"coming across in this area, um, that is one of the ones that's being fenced"},{"startTime":1576.331,"endTime":1576.678,"body":"and militarized, and that is a border that's cutting across border pop population is the"},{"startTime":1576.678,"endTime":1591.965,"body":"below population."},{"startTime":1592.425,"endTime":1595.725,"body":"Um, the Belo community have lived across this border for centuries."},{"startTime":1595.725,"endTime":1596.845,"body":"It's a colonial border."},{"startTime":1597.465,"endTime":1601.793,"body":"Um, and so on the one hand, of course, it's disrupting the lives of people"},{"startTime":1601.793,"endTime":1602.082,"body":"who live in the border area, but at the same time, the the kind of"},{"startTime":1602.082,"endTime":1602.37,"body":"effects I hear too, of the hardening of the border, because both goods and people"},{"startTime":1602.37,"endTime":1611.605,"body":"kind of move freely."},{"startTime":1611.825,"endTime":1616.381,"body":"So the effects are much, much more complex and longer than we, we maybe, um,"},{"startTime":1616.381,"endTime":1616.685,"body":"realize."},{"startTime":1617.545,"endTime":1624.027,"body":"And so to pay attention to these communities that coalesce around the border, understood in"},{"startTime":1624.027,"endTime":1629.645,"body":"all of its complexity, actually doesn't produce perfect victims for, um, humanitarian redress."},{"startTime":1629.865,"endTime":1633.565,"body":"That's not what you get when you look at these kinds of situations."},{"startTime":1633.565,"endTime":1640.06,"body":"What you get instead is an understanding of the various forms of precarious labor that"},{"startTime":1640.06,"endTime":1643.525,"body":"really, um, service everyday aspects of contemporary borders."},{"startTime":1643.785,"endTime":1647.782,"body":"So like the young boy who will, you know in the picture who will make"},{"startTime":1647.782,"endTime":1648.049,"body":"you try as you wait, or the petty official who will, you know, check IDs"},{"startTime":1648.049,"endTime":1648.316,"body":"at random \u003claugh\u003e, or the smuggler who will help you cross the checkpoint somewhere near"},{"startTime":1648.316,"endTime":1656.845,"body":"the Pakistan run border."},{"startTime":1657.015,"endTime":1662.217,"body":"These are all incredibly important actors in the functioning of borders and in the kinds"},{"startTime":1662.217,"endTime":1663.605,"body":"of displacement they enact."},{"startTime":1663.745,"endTime":1668.114,"body":"But these are not actors that we usually think about or hear about when we,"},{"startTime":1668.114,"endTime":1670.445,"body":"we are talking about refugee hood and migration."},{"startTime":1671.945,"endTime":1675.7,"body":"Um, so what I want to do now is just stop for a minute and"},{"startTime":1675.7,"endTime":1679.205,"body":"show you a film that kind of deals with a lot of these issues."},{"startTime":1679.355,"endTime":1684.052,"body":"It's sort of nine, 10 minutes long, maybe a bit shorter, and then I'll come"},{"startTime":1684.052,"endTime":1686.245,"body":"back and wrap up the, um, lecture."},{"startTime":1716.115,"endTime":1720.405,"body":"What does it mean to spend your life attempting to be somewhere or someplace else?"},{"startTime":1723.705,"endTime":1728.405,"body":"Should life's court in movement only ever be understood as being pushed or pulled?"},{"startTime":1731.995,"endTime":1735.445,"body":"What if the thing that pushes you away also pulls you in?"},{"startTime":1738.675,"endTime":1741.685,"body":"What if you know what is to before you, but you go anyway?"},{"startTime":1746.505,"endTime":1748.645,"body":"We know that borders are technologies of power."},{"startTime":1749.425,"endTime":1759.007,"body":"We also know that they're designed to keep people moving, circulating, fleeing unsettlement as strategy"},{"startTime":1759.007,"endTime":1760.285,"body":"of power."},{"startTime":1763.545,"endTime":1768.245,"body":"If borders are designed to unsettle, they're equally designed to identify and to locate."},{"startTime":1770.545,"endTime":1775.525,"body":"To live in borders is to be unsettled, to be elsewhere, but not anywhere."},{"startTime":1777.425,"endTime":1782.983,"body":"To live in borders is to be always contingent on this or that, on anything"},{"startTime":1782.983,"endTime":1783.725,"body":"at all."},{"startTime":1785.705,"endTime":1789.285,"body":"To live in borders is to be yourself and to be someone else."},{"startTime":1792.725,"endTime":1797.085,"body":"A subpar is a mirage, a promise that is also a delusion."},{"startTime":1817.185,"endTime":1823.085,"body":"It a mua K can foretell the coming of a dust storm."},{"startTime":1825.595,"endTime":1827.725,"body":"They can show you a flickering light to follow."},{"startTime":1829.595,"endTime":1832.045,"body":"They will hide you, but they can also trap you."},{"startTime":1834.515,"endTime":1836.325,"body":"What risks are you willing to take?"},{"startTime":1837.465,"endTime":1839.045,"body":"How much time do you have to give?"},{"startTime":1841.345,"endTime":1842.565,"body":"How much money do you have?"},{"startTime":1846.205,"endTime":1848.965,"body":"A dunker will weigh up your chances and your resources."},{"startTime":1849.755,"endTime":1851.805,"body":"They will know what price there is to be paid."},{"startTime":1856.465,"endTime":1862.183,"body":"All journeys must require a map, a way to navigate across unknown lands and hostile"},{"startTime":1862.183,"endTime":1862.565,"body":"grounds."},{"startTime":1864.095,"endTime":1868.51,"body":"Those seafarers of old conquered our lands with just the horizon and the stars as"},{"startTime":1868.51,"endTime":1868.805,"body":"guides."},{"startTime":1872.305,"endTime":1874.565,"body":"Our phones pinging to the satellites overhead."},{"startTime":1874.565,"endTime":1876.805,"body":"Look at us as much as they reveal us."},{"startTime":1879.545,"endTime":1884.205,"body":"But how do you navigate without a datum when the stars have misaligned?"},{"startTime":1884.205,"endTime":1886.325,"body":"And there is no horizon to act as guide."},{"startTime":1886.905,"endTime":1888.005,"body":"How do you find your way?"},{"startTime":1890.105,"endTime":1891.965,"body":"How do you navigate through a mirage?"},{"startTime":1894.185,"endTime":1898.468,"body":"You have to anchor yourself in the shifting sand of a subpar if only for"},{"startTime":1898.468,"endTime":1899.325,"body":"a little while."},{"startTime":1900.925,"endTime":1902.205,"body":"Everyone needs some respite."},{"startTime":1918.755,"endTime":1920.645,"body":"They were supposed to be on ."},{"startTime":1923.185,"endTime":1929.035,"body":"Is there a difference between one kind of visit and another who gets to have"},{"startTime":1929.035,"endTime":1930.205,"body":"a visit visa?"},{"startTime":1931.625,"endTime":1933.565,"body":"And who must dream of a subpar?"},{"startTime":1936.665,"endTime":1942.365,"body":"The undocumented can become documented, able to sail the seas on cargo ships that traverse"},{"startTime":1942.365,"endTime":1943.885,"body":"fluidly across our world."},{"startTime":1946.905,"endTime":1950.445,"body":"But the ground, the ground is another matter altogether."},{"startTime":1951.985,"endTime":1954.525,"body":"The ground it turns out is contingent."},{"startTime":1956.065,"endTime":1958.965,"body":"You might come a ground, but you cannot stand on the ground."},{"startTime":1968.265,"endTime":1972.415,"body":"Those whose labor transports goods across the shifting seas must stay there."},{"startTime":1973.265,"endTime":1979.545,"body":"There where jurisdictions overlap and waters are international between nations where no claim can be"},{"startTime":1979.545,"endTime":1982.895,"body":"made and no rights are to be had."},{"startTime":1986.785,"endTime":1994.495,"body":"While borders at sea are elusive, in contested lands, they proliferate and congeal in geographies."},{"startTime":1994.495,"endTime":1999.812,"body":"Further from the edges of Europe, the smooth flow of logistics inevitably meets the latent"},{"startTime":1999.812,"endTime":2004.775,"body":"desires of a people to decide their own fate and that of their lands."},{"startTime":2009.075,"endTime":2015.362,"body":"To graze livestock, to attend the grave of a loved one, to simply walk across"},{"startTime":2015.362,"endTime":2019.135,"body":"what were once open lands to visit becomes unthinkable."},{"startTime":2028.035,"endTime":2032.575,"body":"Why does one type of oil flow so smoothly while another becomes viscous?"},{"startTime":2033.085,"endTime":2076.126,"body":"It's flow heavy stuck congealed, perhaps it depends on what it lubricates to live according"},{"startTime":2076.126,"endTime":2084.735,"body":"to another's time."},{"startTime":2090.804,"endTime":2096.721,"body":"Factory time can become a somatic fact when the seasonal rhythms of village life are"},{"startTime":2096.721,"endTime":2101.455,"body":"disrupted and the lunar calendar is half replaced by another measure altogether."},{"startTime":2103.675,"endTime":2106.295,"body":"So how do you locate yourself in between measures?"},{"startTime":2107.115,"endTime":2109.935,"body":"In between the Ravi and the Chana where no water flows?"},{"startTime":2114.355,"endTime":2115.715,"body":"Ravi's waters are close to us."},{"startTime":2116.165,"endTime":2117.395,"body":"There is no water there."},{"startTime":2118.455,"endTime":2124.796,"body":"We have been given water through am link from  Marla head water is picked"},{"startTime":2124.796,"endTime":2130.715,"body":"up and released into the canals, into AM link, and BRB there are sub-branches."},{"startTime":2136.495,"endTime":2142.561,"body":"The rhythms of village life are also imposed, ruled by colonial canals and property lines"},{"startTime":2142.561,"endTime":2146.605,"body":"by cast iron and water treaties and capricious snow melts."},{"startTime":2148.865,"endTime":2154.448,"body":"But who has the privilege to be bored to long for another rhythm to ask"},{"startTime":2154.448,"endTime":2155.565,"body":"what lies beyond"},{"startTime":2171.135,"endTime":2171.485,"body":"Sound?"},{"startTime":2173.265,"endTime":2191.645,"body":"So, hmm, pardon?"},{"startTime":2244.705,"endTime":2244.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2244.995,"endTime":2249.885,"body":"I suppose the stories that we've had the, um, privilege to hear are many things,"},{"startTime":2249.885,"endTime":2251.515,"body":"the hopes, their cherish dreams."},{"startTime":2252.335,"endTime":2254.235,"body":"Um, there are about huge difficulties."},{"startTime":2254.235,"endTime":2255.635,"body":"There are also stories of violence."},{"startTime":2256.255,"endTime":2258.955,"body":"Um, the violence from mil, right borders, extractive regimes."},{"startTime":2258.955,"endTime":2262.635,"body":"And they all somehow come together on the intimate topology of migrant bodies."},{"startTime":2263.175,"endTime":2267.694,"body":"And so in working with film as a medium, one of the things that's been"},{"startTime":2267.694,"endTime":2267.995,"body":"really important to me is to try to sort of account for the violence that"},{"startTime":2267.995,"endTime":2268.297,"body":"people face on a structural level, um, without resorting to images of violence on individual"},{"startTime":2268.297,"endTime":2277.035,"body":"people."},{"startTime":2277.195,"endTime":2278.555,"body":"I think that's incredibly important."},{"startTime":2279.095,"endTime":2284.052,"body":"And it's also an ethical question to not show people as abject victims, but somehow,"},{"startTime":2284.052,"endTime":2284.383,"body":"you know, showing the truth of the difficulties this face, but also showing some of"},{"startTime":2284.383,"endTime":2284.713,"body":"the agency that they have within that system where they make decisions, sometimes the wrong"},{"startTime":2284.713,"endTime":2298.595,"body":"decisions and, you know, are able to kind of still somehow produce a life."},{"startTime":2299.175,"endTime":2303.217,"body":"Um, so what the film is really trying to do, as I said, is complicate"},{"startTime":2303.217,"endTime":2303.487,"body":"who this figure of the refugee is, is trying to open up our understandings of"},{"startTime":2303.487,"endTime":2309.955,"body":"what the spaces of migration of refugee hood look like."},{"startTime":2310.375,"endTime":2314.866,"body":"Not just the usual ones that we see, um, beyond European urban centers, beyond the"},{"startTime":2314.866,"endTime":2315.765,"body":"edges of Europe."},{"startTime":2316.425,"endTime":2320.182,"body":"Um, and to an extent it's also some, somehow trying to show some of the"},{"startTime":2320.182,"endTime":2321.685,"body":"realities of lives caught in borders."},{"startTime":2321.685,"endTime":2326.442,"body":"So the kind of dreams and delusions that being caught within the circulation of borders"},{"startTime":2326.442,"endTime":2330.565,"body":"produces people lose track of time even though they are kind of okay."},{"startTime":2330.565,"endTime":2334.498,"body":"They don't call back home even though they know their families are waiting and they"},{"startTime":2334.498,"endTime":2335.285,"body":"want to hear."},{"startTime":2335.435,"endTime":2339.551,"body":"There's something about wanting to always get there to get to that place where you"},{"startTime":2339.551,"endTime":2342.845,"body":"feel okay, where you feel settled, where you can then call home."},{"startTime":2343.225,"endTime":2344.965,"body":"But of course we know that this never happens."},{"startTime":2345.225,"endTime":2347.485,"body":"And so it's a kind of ongoing situation."},{"startTime":2347.655,"endTime":2351.916,"body":"Again, it's that kind of feeling of persistent present that I was sort of speaking"},{"startTime":2351.916,"endTime":2352.485,"body":"about earlier."},{"startTime":2353.985,"endTime":2357.97,"body":"And then I suppose it's the film is also trying to do some work against"},{"startTime":2357.97,"endTime":2358.236,"body":"this kind of visual politics of humanitarianism that I was speaking about right at the"},{"startTime":2358.236,"endTime":2363.285,"body":"beginning of this la lecture."},{"startTime":2364.065,"endTime":2369.031,"body":"So I suppose an important point to note here is that, um, you know, while"},{"startTime":2369.031,"endTime":2369.362,"body":"within the kind of visual politics of humanitarianism and refugee who the, the migrant is"},{"startTime":2369.362,"endTime":2378.965,"body":"produced as an abject victim, that kind of visual politics also does something to us."},{"startTime":2379.145,"endTime":2381.885,"body":"It produces us as a certain kind of spectator."},{"startTime":2382.505,"endTime":2387.125,"body":"Um, and, uh, the academic Lily Raki has written quite nicely on this."},{"startTime":2387.125,"endTime":2392.005,"body":"She sort of calls us, it says that it produces us as ironic spectators."},{"startTime":2392.235,"endTime":2396.676,"body":"What she means by that is that we become a sort of spectator that is"},{"startTime":2396.676,"endTime":2397.565,"body":"always questioning, right?"},{"startTime":2397.945,"endTime":2402.823,"body":"Um, a kind of self-conscious suspicion of everything that has shown us a kind of"},{"startTime":2402.823,"endTime":2404.125,"body":"detached knowingness from things."},{"startTime":2404.705,"endTime":2409.908,"body":"Um, and really what the film Christ to do is to break that relation, to"},{"startTime":2409.908,"endTime":2410.255,"body":"pull you the viewer into the complexity of sort of migrant lives and, and that"},{"startTime":2410.255,"endTime":2415.805,"body":"of borders."},{"startTime":2416.025,"endTime":2420.445,"body":"Um, and so, you know, to, to tell you a story of a global community"},{"startTime":2420.445,"endTime":2420.74,"body":"of this unsettled who may or may not, you know, fit within the kind of"},{"startTime":2420.74,"endTime":2426.045,"body":"given definitions of refugee."},{"startTime":2426.815,"endTime":2427.285,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2434.105,"endTime":2438.793,"body":"You have two questions that have come in from the outside that I thought I"},{"startTime":2438.793,"endTime":2439.106,"body":"would pose to you together, which are actually very much coming out of what you've"},{"startTime":2439.106,"endTime":2445.045,"body":"just spoken to us about."},{"startTime":2445.045,"endTime":2445.285,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2445.325,"endTime":2450.325,"body":"\u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":2445.585,"endTime":2452.156,"body":"Um, the first is, as maps are political, how do we influence or reclaim maps"},{"startTime":2452.156,"endTime":2456.975,"body":"with more stories about movements told by the refugees themselves first?"},{"startTime":2457.155,"endTime":2464.125,"body":"And the second one is, are people migrating more because of economic political instability or"},{"startTime":2464.125,"endTime":2465.055,"body":"climate change?"},{"startTime":2466.955,"endTime":2469.415,"body":"And I'm gonna then take the next ones from you"},{"startTime":2469.835,"endTime":2472.015,"body":"And maybe I'll take the last question first."},{"startTime":2472.315,"endTime":2477.073,"body":"Um, I think one of the things that you find out is that these things"},{"startTime":2477.073,"endTime":2477.39,"body":"are kind of entwined in lives That, that, at least in the kind of places"},{"startTime":2477.39,"endTime":2477.707,"body":"that I've been working and where the kind of climate crisis is compounded by certain"},{"startTime":2477.707,"endTime":2478.025,"body":"kind of political decisions that have been made by certain decisions on urban planning, on,"},{"startTime":2478.025,"endTime":2492.935,"body":"you know, large scale infrastructure."},{"startTime":2493.665,"endTime":2498.289,"body":"So yes, there is a climate crisis that's happening, but it's being compounded by certain"},{"startTime":2498.289,"endTime":2502.605,"body":"forms of development that bring in, you know, political and kind of economic ideas."},{"startTime":2502.665,"endTime":2506.085,"body":"So it's very difficult, I think to, to disentangle this."},{"startTime":2506.345,"endTime":2511.463,"body":"And actually many people have sort of questioned this term climate refugee precisely because of"},{"startTime":2511.463,"endTime":2511.805,"body":"that."},{"startTime":2512.085,"endTime":2516.032,"body":"'cause it's very difficult to pinpoint that this is the reason why someone is moving"},{"startTime":2516.032,"endTime":2517.085,"body":"it is the climate."},{"startTime":2517.595,"endTime":2522.21,"body":"Even though, you know, with common sense we know, but if you wanted evidence, it's"},{"startTime":2522.21,"endTime":2524.365,"body":"very hard to to make that case."},{"startTime":2524.385,"endTime":2528.495,"body":"And so I think that's why we need those kinds of individual stories because you"},{"startTime":2528.495,"endTime":2532.605,"body":"would try to understand how people's lives are entangled across these different kind of issues."},{"startTime":2533.385,"endTime":2537.005,"body":"Um, then as far as sort of maps are concerned, yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":2537.075,"endTime":2541.005,"body":"Maps are political documents and so we have to bring our own politics to them."},{"startTime":2541.595,"endTime":2545.573,"body":"Part of what we've been trying to do with that, um, mapping platform is to"},{"startTime":2545.573,"endTime":2545.839,"body":"sort of try to understand that the digital as a kind of means of making"},{"startTime":2545.839,"endTime":2552.205,"body":"maps is absolutely, you know, you can't escape it now."},{"startTime":2552.545,"endTime":2558.832,"body":"So how do you not produce kind of maps that go with the logic of"},{"startTime":2558.832,"endTime":2562.605,"body":"certain kinds of digital technologies that produce spaces bordered?"},{"startTime":2562.865,"endTime":2567.565,"body":"And so it means, you know, putting the experience of the refugee or the migrant"},{"startTime":2567.565,"endTime":2569.445,"body":"first and then growing the space."},{"startTime":2569.925,"endTime":2573.245,"body":"Normally you start with spatial relations and you add experience to it."},{"startTime":2573.305,"endTime":2574.525,"body":"We are doing it the other way around."},{"startTime":2575.715,"endTime":2576.245,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":2576.245,"endTime":2576.485,"body":"Lovely."},{"startTime":2576.495,"endTime":2577.445,"body":"Thank you \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2577.905,"endTime":2582.125,"body":"Um, I'm curious about your point about borders being designed to keep people moving."},{"startTime":2582.345,"endTime":2589.497,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e, um, specifically when it comes to patterns of circular migration engendered by like"},{"startTime":2589.497,"endTime":2591.405,"body":"geographical convenience and ease."},{"startTime":2592.005,"endTime":2596.565,"body":"I think, uh, the example in my mind right now is the southern border of"},{"startTime":2596.565,"endTime":2601.125,"body":"the us which acts as like a case study of what circular migration looks like."},{"startTime":2601.595,"endTime":2605.885,"body":"Undisrupted, pre like politicization of that border."},{"startTime":2606.585,"endTime":2612.972,"body":"Um, obviously the introduction of a militarized southern border has disrupted like natural flows of"},{"startTime":2612.972,"endTime":2616.805,"body":"circular migration that have existed before the American state."},{"startTime":2617.385,"endTime":2623.366,"body":"Do you think that idea still holds that 'cause it's a very quintessential like militarized"},{"startTime":2623.366,"endTime":2623.765,"body":"border."},{"startTime":2624.065,"endTime":2629.255,"body":"Do you think the idea of borders being there to keep people moving still ho"},{"startTime":2629.255,"endTime":2634.445,"body":"holds with the case of circular migration, specifically with the, um, American South southern border?"},{"startTime":2634.545,"endTime":2635.205,"body":"Mm, thank"},{"startTime":2635.205,"endTime":2635.325,"body":"You."},{"startTime":2635.595,"endTime":2636.125,"body":"Good question."},{"startTime":2636.585,"endTime":2642.491,"body":"Um, well there was a reason why I said contemporary borders because I think, yeah,"},{"startTime":2642.491,"endTime":2642.885,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":2642.945,"endTime":2647.282,"body":"So the Pakistan Iran border that I'm speaking of is a very similar case where"},{"startTime":2647.282,"endTime":2647.571,"body":"people move across and there is this kind of circular migration that's to do with"},{"startTime":2647.571,"endTime":2647.86,"body":"trade flows and that yeah, it's happening across the border, but before that border was"},{"startTime":2647.86,"endTime":2660.005,"body":"kind of militarized and harder that that was happening and it worked really nicely."},{"startTime":2660.545,"endTime":2665.245,"body":"But the kind of circulation that I'm speaking of happens once the borders have been"},{"startTime":2665.245,"endTime":2665.558,"body":"militarized and that kind of natural movement that was happening to do with families and"},{"startTime":2665.558,"endTime":2670.885,"body":"economies breaks down."},{"startTime":2671.345,"endTime":2673.485,"body":"And then you still need the labor, right?"},{"startTime":2673.505,"endTime":2675.925,"body":"You still need some of that, those economies to function."},{"startTime":2676.145,"endTime":2680.63,"body":"And so another logic comes in and then people are kind of forced to move"},{"startTime":2680.63,"endTime":2680.929,"body":"through what are very exploitative conditions, whereas before they had agency and they could do,"},{"startTime":2680.929,"endTime":2688.405,"body":"uh, they could move according to their own kind of yeah."},{"startTime":2689.555,"endTime":2690.525,"body":"Desires, I suppose."},{"startTime":2690.705,"endTime":2692.885,"body":"So does that answer your question or?"},{"startTime":2693.105,"endTime":2693.845,"body":"Yes, a good answer."},{"startTime":2693.845,"endTime":2694.645,"body":"Thank you, \u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":2695.395,"endTime":2695.685,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2695.985,"endTime":2702.727,"body":"My question is about, um, what you, um, described as a production of, uh, perfect,"},{"startTime":2702.727,"endTime":2703.177,"body":"or I call it non-production of perfect victims, uh, along the spaces that you, um,"},{"startTime":2703.177,"endTime":2713.965,"body":"where you spend a lot of time for your research."},{"startTime":2714.665,"endTime":2721.036,"body":"Um, how, um, and I see it through this lens of like ideal refugee where"},{"startTime":2721.036,"endTime":2721.46,"body":"nobody's, nobody, there is no ideal refugee and still there is, uh, um, definition of"},{"startTime":2721.46,"endTime":2730.805,"body":"refugee mm-hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e and you started with this."},{"startTime":2731.105,"endTime":2740.655,"body":"And um, so how this, um, places where no perfect victims are produced affect, um,"},{"startTime":2740.655,"endTime":2742.565,"body":"categorization of refugees."},{"startTime":2743.025,"endTime":2744.445,"body":"And do you see this"},{"startTime":2745.155,"endTime":2745.845,"body":"Possibility"},{"startTime":2746.025,"endTime":2752.125,"body":"Of like, disrupting this and what are options for disrupt disruption?"},{"startTime":2752.715,"endTime":2753.605,"body":"Does this make sense?"},{"startTime":2754.315,"endTime":2755.045,"body":"Yeah, I think so."},{"startTime":2755.085,"endTime":2759.135,"body":"I mean, I think it, it goes to the reason why within this kind of"},{"startTime":2759.135,"endTime":2759.405,"body":"last project that I did, which is kind of five years looking at movement from,"},{"startTime":2759.405,"endTime":2764.805,"body":"you know, Pakistan around Afghanistan, Europe."},{"startTime":2765.065,"endTime":2770.52,"body":"And there was a reason why I focused in on the Pakistani migrant subject because"},{"startTime":2770.52,"endTime":2774.885,"body":"this is a subject that will almost never get refugee hood right?"},{"startTime":2774.885,"endTime":2780.685,"body":"Because, um, there are people who are understood as economic migrants for better or worse."},{"startTime":2781.385,"endTime":2786.001,"body":"Um, and so part of the reason for doing this work was to kind of"},{"startTime":2786.001,"endTime":2786.925,"body":"break that categorization."},{"startTime":2786.985,"endTime":2791.313,"body":"So I started with the refugee definition precisely to show that this definition does not"},{"startTime":2791.313,"endTime":2793.045,"body":"work in any of these cases."},{"startTime":2793.785,"endTime":2796.945,"body":"And I think the point that I made that, you know, as people move, it's"},{"startTime":2796.945,"endTime":2799.685,"body":"not a point that I've only made, lots of people have made it."},{"startTime":2799.705,"endTime":2803.445,"body":"As people move across jurisdictions, they get categorized differently."},{"startTime":2804.105,"endTime":2810.902,"body":"Um, so I think, you know, questioning, so starting with those very kind of peripheral"},{"startTime":2810.902,"endTime":2811.355,"body":"subjectivities and showing that they require forms of, um, you know, redress et cetera, um,"},{"startTime":2811.355,"endTime":2824.045,"body":"I think helps to break down this logic of categorization, which is really unhelpful."},{"startTime":2825.025,"endTime":2830.251,"body":"We have a another set, um, from the outside, um, I'm gonna ask you about"},{"startTime":2830.251,"endTime":2831.645,"body":"all three of them."},{"startTime":2831.745,"endTime":2833.485,"body":"One is about the Rwanda plan."},{"startTime":2833.785,"endTime":2834.005,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2834.385,"endTime":2838.045,"body":"Um, what will this do to undocumented people in the uk?"},{"startTime":2839.145,"endTime":2843.604,"body":"The second is, um, what are the key human rights issues that you have seen"},{"startTime":2843.604,"endTime":2845.685,"body":"faced by the Syrian refugees in Turkey?"},{"startTime":2847.425,"endTime":2854.093,"body":"And then the sort of overview question, would it be helpful or harmful to have"},{"startTime":2854.093,"endTime":2857.205,"body":"an international governing body overseeing all migration?"},{"startTime":2859.635,"endTime":2863.165,"body":"Well, this sort of is, I mean there are refugee agencies."},{"startTime":2863.165,"endTime":2867.245,"body":"There's the IOM, which is the International Organization for Migration."},{"startTime":2867.825,"endTime":2873.814,"body":"So that is supposed to look after all those people who don't fall under the,"},{"startTime":2873.814,"endTime":2879.005,"body":"the definition of refugee taken as the Geneva Convention Rep, um, um, definition."},{"startTime":2879.585,"endTime":2882.245,"body":"Um, so it also includes internally displaced people."},{"startTime":2882.345,"endTime":2886.42,"body":"So we have the IOM, but um, this is maybe a slightly controversial thing to"},{"startTime":2886.42,"endTime":2886.691,"body":"say, but something that I think that the IOM is much more concerned with keeping"},{"startTime":2886.691,"endTime":2892.125,"body":"people in the places they are."},{"startTime":2892.385,"endTime":2896.205,"body":"So they're the people who run the voluntary return program, if you've heard of that."},{"startTime":2896.605,"endTime":2901.045,"body":"U-N-H-C-R does it too, where they're kind of the whole logic of the international organization"},{"startTime":2901.045,"endTime":2904.005,"body":"for migration is to make sure people don't actually migrate."},{"startTime":2904.665,"endTime":2909.165,"body":"So yeah, a more kind of honest broker could, could be helpful, I guess."},{"startTime":2909.545,"endTime":2914.205,"body":"Um, but, you know, um, but I don't know who that broker would be."},{"startTime":2914.235,"endTime":2917.169,"body":"It's difficult to imagine right now who that would be in the world we live"},{"startTime":2917.169,"endTime":2917.365,"body":"in."},{"startTime":2917.785,"endTime":2920.245,"body":"Um, there was a Rwanda question, but what was before that one?"},{"startTime":2920.385,"endTime":2920.765,"body":"The middle"},{"startTime":2921.125,"endTime":2925.285,"body":"A about, um, Syrian refugees in Turkey issues they face."},{"startTime":2926.595,"endTime":2931.207,"body":"Well, Turkey, as I mentioned, operates this kind of regional limitation when it comes to"},{"startTime":2931.207,"endTime":2935.205,"body":"who it considers to be a refugee or who it'll help I suppose."},{"startTime":2935.605,"endTime":2939.965,"body":"'cause it signed the Geneva Convention early on and then didn't take the 67 Protocol."},{"startTime":2940.505,"endTime":2948.045,"body":"Um, so in Turkey, no refugee actually can be given refugee hood within Turkey."},{"startTime":2948.225,"endTime":2953.016,"body":"So it's sort of the U-N-H-C-R looks after the whole kind of question of how"},{"startTime":2953.016,"endTime":2953.335,"body":"refugees are kind of, you know, get asylum and then they're sent to other countries"},{"startTime":2953.335,"endTime":2959.405,"body":"if they do get asylum."},{"startTime":2959.925,"endTime":2965.437,"body":"'cause Turkey doesn't keep refugees, but the Syrians have a special status within, um, within"},{"startTime":2965.437,"endTime":2965.805,"body":"Turkey."},{"startTime":2965.905,"endTime":2970.793,"body":"So they have slightly more rights than other people who are applying for refugee hood"},{"startTime":2970.793,"endTime":2971.445,"body":"in Turkey."},{"startTime":2971.905,"endTime":2974.165,"body":"Um, that's not to say that Syrians have a wonderful life."},{"startTime":2974.325,"endTime":2979.285,"body":"I mean there is a huge amount of homelessness of Syrian refugees in Turkey."},{"startTime":2979.285,"endTime":2985.039,"body":"There's a lot of xenophobia against them now, um, especially in the last few years"},{"startTime":2985.039,"endTime":2987.725,"body":"as the Turkish economy has, um, struggled."},{"startTime":2987.785,"endTime":2992.325,"body":"So has of course, you know, xenophobia against outsiders is the usual story."},{"startTime":2992.545,"endTime":2997.593,"body":"So, um, healthcare tends to be the major issue for people, um, in Turkey, and"},{"startTime":2997.593,"endTime":2997.93,"body":"that's Syrians as well, but especially those who are not Syrians, because Syrians have a"},{"startTime":2997.93,"endTime":2998.267,"body":"special case, so they're entitled to a bit more than other people in who are"},{"startTime":2998.267,"endTime":3008.365,"body":"seeking asylum."},{"startTime":3008.865,"endTime":3011.525,"body":"So healthcare is a major, major, major issue in Turkey."},{"startTime":3011.705,"endTime":3016.84,"body":"And often you find, at least in the people that I've been talking to who"},{"startTime":3016.84,"endTime":3017.182,"body":"usually tend to be Muslims because of the countries they're moving from, um, that mosques"},{"startTime":3017.182,"endTime":3017.525,"body":"and other kind of religious organizations are really that providing those services that the state"},{"startTime":3017.525,"endTime":3029.165,"body":"is not providing, um, Rwanda plan."},{"startTime":3029.545,"endTime":3034.025,"body":"Um, I mean it's as brutal as it sounds, I think it will make life"},{"startTime":3034.025,"endTime":3034.324,"body":"very difficult because a lot of people who are trying to make their way to"},{"startTime":3034.324,"endTime":3034.622,"body":"u the UK are coming here because they have family, they have friends, they have"},{"startTime":3034.622,"endTime":3043.285,"body":"networks."},{"startTime":3043.345,"endTime":3048.315,"body":"So to take some d out of all of that and put them somewhere far"},{"startTime":3048.315,"endTime":3053.285,"body":"away where they have no networks of support is an incredibly cruel thing to do."},{"startTime":3053.665,"endTime":3055.205,"body":"Um, and hopefully it won't work."},{"startTime":3055.685,"endTime":3060.685,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e,"},{"startTime":3056.415,"endTime":3058.165,"body":"Thank you so much for this lecture."},{"startTime":3058.585,"endTime":3063.446,"body":"Um, I'm actually studying at the Bartlett in UCL and I find there are like"},{"startTime":3063.446,"endTime":3063.77,"body":"many institutions, the architectural aesthetic of the refugee or migrant is very one dimensional and"},{"startTime":3063.77,"endTime":3069.605,"body":"often serves a purpose."},{"startTime":3070.705,"endTime":3076.277,"body":"And my question is, how do you negotiate empowering migrants and people that you're working"},{"startTime":3076.277,"endTime":3076.649,"body":"with, with counter epistemologies and an overarching understanding of the systems that hold them hostage"},{"startTime":3076.649,"endTime":3085.565,"body":"with the urgent needs and realities at the present moment?"},{"startTime":3088.265,"endTime":3089.285,"body":"That's a difficult question."},{"startTime":3089.285,"endTime":3092.975,"body":"If I knew how to do that, I'd do it \u003claugh\u003e, but I, no, it's"},{"startTime":3092.975,"endTime":3094.205,"body":"a really, really good question."},{"startTime":3094.305,"endTime":3099.062,"body":"And it's hard because architecture, as you say, especially in a place like the Barlett"},{"startTime":3099.062,"endTime":3100.965,"body":"is very kind of trad, right?"},{"startTime":3101.005,"endTime":3103.365,"body":"It's very traditional in the way it thinks about architecture."},{"startTime":3103.365,"endTime":3106.725,"body":"Another version of this lecture starts with what all of this,"},{"startTime":3108.665,"endTime":3111.205,"body":"How all of this should make us think about architecture differently."},{"startTime":3111.205,"endTime":3116.162,"body":"Architecture as you know, the very kind of basis of the Western understanding of architecture"},{"startTime":3116.162,"endTime":3117.485,"body":"is around settlement, right?"},{"startTime":3117.505,"endTime":3122.492,"body":"The primitive heart and all that nonsense we get told in ba and actually to"},{"startTime":3122.492,"endTime":3122.825,"body":"restart, to start to rethink architecture through unsettlement is a long term project that I"},{"startTime":3122.825,"endTime":3130.805,"body":"think we all need to engage in as our architects."},{"startTime":3130.825,"endTime":3136.607,"body":"You know, how do we begin to think of architecture, spatial relations through unsettlement because"},{"startTime":3136.607,"endTime":3142.005,"body":"that's really the condition of the vast majority of people in the world today."},{"startTime":3142.025,"endTime":3146.753,"body":"So it means, yeah, absolutely what you said, questioning all the bases, um, everything that"},{"startTime":3146.753,"endTime":3148.645,"body":"we've learned really in architecture school."},{"startTime":3149.125,"endTime":3154.125,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e,"},{"startTime":3149.775,"endTime":3151.165,"body":"Final thought from you, Nisha."},{"startTime":3151.875,"endTime":3154.605,"body":"Nothing, just thank you very much for coming and listening."}]}