{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":8.545,"endTime":12.485,"body":"So what makes a regime count as a democracy?"},{"startTime":14.185,"endTime":20.363,"body":"My guess is that most of you would say elections, thinking of a scene like"},{"startTime":20.363,"endTime":26.541,"body":"this, the inspiring moment when Nelson Mandela in 1994 cast a ballot for the very"},{"startTime":26.541,"endTime":27.365,"body":"first time."},{"startTime":29.305,"endTime":33.63,"body":"The Gresham College lecture that you're listening to right now is giving you knowledge and"},{"startTime":33.63,"endTime":37.956,"body":"insight from one of the world's leading academic experts making it takes a lot of"},{"startTime":37.956,"endTime":38.245,"body":"time."},{"startTime":38.825,"endTime":42.068,"body":"But because we want to encourage a love of learning, we think it's well worth"},{"startTime":42.068,"endTime":42.285,"body":"it."},{"startTime":43.225,"endTime":47.408,"body":"We never make you pay for lectures, although donations are needed, all we ask in"},{"startTime":47.408,"endTime":48.245,"body":"return is this."},{"startTime":48.755,"endTime":51.045,"body":"Send a link to this lecture to someone you think would benefit."},{"startTime":51.425,"endTime":55.075,"body":"And if you haven't already, click the follow or subscribe button from wherever you are"},{"startTime":55.075,"endTime":55.805,"body":"listening right now."},{"startTime":57.025,"endTime":58.805,"body":"Now let's get back to the lecture,"},{"startTime":62.005,"endTime":68.975,"body":"But the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle, here's a photo of Aristotle, of a statue in"},{"startTime":68.975,"endTime":69.905,"body":"his home."},{"startTime":70.045,"endTime":78.145,"body":"Sta in his hometown of stagger Aristotle would've said the opposite in listing the hallmarks"},{"startTime":78.145,"endTime":83.545,"body":"of democracy, he wrote that the appointment to all offices."},{"startTime":84.165,"endTime":89.627,"body":"And then he has a caveat, which I'll come back to, but the appointment to"},{"startTime":89.627,"endTime":92.905,"body":"all offices, small caveat, should be made by lot."},{"startTime":94.245,"endTime":103.028,"body":"And the historian Ous similarly characterized rule by the majority as taking place typically and"},{"startTime":103.028,"endTime":104.785,"body":"characteristically by lottery."},{"startTime":105.685,"endTime":111.91,"body":"As you can see, Herid has one of his characters observe that rule by the"},{"startTime":111.91,"endTime":113.985,"body":"majority, assign offices by lot."},{"startTime":116.475,"endTime":123.86,"body":"So while election is the key to modern ideas of democracy, it was the opposite"},{"startTime":123.86,"endTime":131.245,"body":"for the ancient Greeks such as the Athenians living there in the classical period, they"},{"startTime":131.245,"endTime":138.63,"body":"saw elections as inherently tending to be oligarchic and aristocratic as the scholar Bernard Manan"},{"startTime":138.63,"endTime":139.615,"body":"has emphasized."},{"startTime":140.745,"endTime":147.503,"body":"After all, elections are a way of saying that for some purposes some people are"},{"startTime":147.503,"endTime":148.855,"body":"better than others."},{"startTime":151.835,"endTime":156.655,"body":"Now that doesn't mean that ancient Democrats never used elections at all."},{"startTime":157.915,"endTime":164.295,"body":"The ancient Athenians actually did elect about a 12th of their annual office holders."},{"startTime":165.035,"endTime":171.391,"body":"So they elected all of their military leaders and eventually their top financial officials as"},{"startTime":171.391,"endTime":171.815,"body":"well."},{"startTime":173.275,"endTime":180.172,"body":"So you can see that exception explained in the caveat in the first quotation here"},{"startTime":180.172,"endTime":187.069,"body":"from from Aristotle because Aristotle says precisely that's what's characteristic of democracy is the appointment"},{"startTime":187.069,"endTime":193.966,"body":"to all offices or to all, but those that require experience and skill that such"},{"startTime":193.966,"endTime":196.725,"body":"appointments should be made by lot."},{"startTime":198.005,"endTime":204.11,"body":"So that's the caveat that the Greeks thought that military offices and the high financial"},{"startTime":204.11,"endTime":206.145,"body":"offices required experience and skill."},{"startTime":206.645,"endTime":211.625,"body":"And so the Athenians actually did elect people to hold those positions."},{"startTime":213.285,"endTime":220.145,"body":"And an anonymous ancient Greek author co caustically commented on the same point."},{"startTime":220.895,"endTime":226.565,"body":"This is a text by someone whom scholars have come to call pseudo Xenophon because"},{"startTime":226.565,"endTime":230.345,"body":"this text was preserved in the corpus of Xenophon's writings."},{"startTime":231.025,"endTime":236.05,"body":"Nowadays we tend to refer to him or her we don't know as the old"},{"startTime":236.05,"endTime":236.385,"body":"oligarch."},{"startTime":237.085,"endTime":243.371,"body":"Um, and we think that this is a person, probably an Athenian commenting on Athenian"},{"startTime":243.371,"endTime":246.305,"body":"democratic politics, but from an oligarchic perspective."},{"startTime":247.445,"endTime":253.902,"body":"And so this person comments that the people speaking of the Athenian people and referring"},{"startTime":253.902,"endTime":260.36,"body":"especially to the common people in Athens, the people don't think they should be given"},{"startTime":260.36,"endTime":264.665,"body":"access by lot to positions of general or cavalry commander."},{"startTime":264.795,"endTime":270.835,"body":"Again, those military offices that I mentioned for the people know that it is more"},{"startTime":270.835,"endTime":276.875,"body":"beneficial for them not to hold these offices, not to be selected by lot into"},{"startTime":276.875,"endTime":281.305,"body":"those offices, but to let the most capable men hold them."},{"startTime":281.725,"endTime":287.53,"body":"And again, the most capable men in this case then would've been ex hypothesized chosen"},{"startTime":287.53,"endTime":288.305,"body":"by election."},{"startTime":290.925,"endTime":297.768,"body":"So the ancient democracies like Athens could and did use elections as tools for certain"},{"startTime":297.768,"endTime":298.225,"body":"purposes."},{"startTime":299.865,"endTime":307.729,"body":"Nevertheless, they understood lottery to be the method that was more inherently democratic lottery is"},{"startTime":307.729,"endTime":314.545,"body":"what better captured the spirit and values of democracy as they understood it."},{"startTime":316.565,"endTime":323.81,"body":"And conversely, if we today answer that question of what makes a constitution democratic by"},{"startTime":323.81,"endTime":331.055,"body":"just saying elections, we overlook the fact that many authoritarian regimes actually make use of"},{"startTime":331.055,"endTime":332.505,"body":"regular elections too."},{"startTime":333.885,"endTime":340.647,"body":"So when you stop to think about it, divine defining democracy just as elections is"},{"startTime":340.647,"endTime":344.705,"body":"always incomplete in ancient Greece and also to today."},{"startTime":346.325,"endTime":351.672,"body":"So we need to say something at least like free and fair elections today, and"},{"startTime":351.672,"endTime":357.02,"body":"by when we say that we would bring values as well as institutions into the"},{"startTime":357.02,"endTime":362.368,"body":"frame, we would think that it matters how elections are free and how they are"},{"startTime":362.368,"endTime":362.725,"body":"fair."},{"startTime":363.905,"endTime":370.195,"body":"And so then we need to explain what exactly something like freedom or liberty, I'm"},{"startTime":370.195,"endTime":376.486,"body":"gonna use those words interchangeably, what and how that should be taken to mean in"},{"startTime":376.486,"endTime":377.325,"body":"democratic terms."},{"startTime":378.035,"endTime":385.543,"body":"Because again, authoritarian regimes today like oligarchies and antiquity, have also laid claim to the"},{"startTime":385.543,"endTime":387.045,"body":"value of freedom."},{"startTime":387.585,"endTime":393.101,"body":"So we have to investigate exactly what is freedom for ancient Democrats and what should"},{"startTime":393.101,"endTime":394.205,"body":"it mean today"},{"startTime":396.995,"endTime":403.215,"body":"And indeed in Aristotle's analysis of ancient Greek democracy in book six of his politics."},{"startTime":403.315,"endTime":409.797,"body":"And that was what I began by quoting his first step was actually to explain"},{"startTime":409.797,"endTime":413.255,"body":"the value of liberty as Democrats understood it."},{"startTime":414.475,"endTime":415.455,"body":"So we see this here."},{"startTime":415.515,"endTime":418.255,"body":"Here's Aristotle in book six of the politics."},{"startTime":418.755,"endTime":423.055,"body":"And he says, the basis of a democratic state is liberty."},{"startTime":424.315,"endTime":429.255,"body":"So one principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn."},{"startTime":430.365,"endTime":433.375,"body":"Another is that a man should live as he likes."},{"startTime":433.635,"endTime":436.455,"body":"And I'm not going to say much more about that one in the lecture."},{"startTime":436.635,"endTime":439.655,"body":"So that's something we can come back to in discussion."},{"startTime":440.475,"endTime":444.775,"body":"But I wanna emphasize this claim of to rule and be ruled in turn."},{"startTime":445.005,"endTime":448.695,"body":"Because notice what Aristotle says, um, a little bit further down."},{"startTime":448.995,"endTime":456.23,"body":"He says, because democratic people think of themselves as free and equal in a strong"},{"startTime":456.23,"endTime":463.466,"body":"sense, that from that has arisen the claim to be ruled by none if possible"},{"startTime":463.466,"endTime":469.255,"body":"or if this is impossible to rule and be ruled in turn."},{"startTime":471.265,"endTime":477.192,"body":"So what he is saying here is that democratic freedom, what's especially characteristic of democratic"},{"startTime":477.192,"endTime":482.725,"body":"freedom is acknowledging that no one has more entitlement to rule than anyone else."},{"startTime":483.905,"endTime":489.088,"body":"And meanwhile you see that he also mentions in the last line of the passage"},{"startTime":489.088,"endTime":490.125,"body":"there democratic equality."},{"startTime":490.985,"endTime":497.285,"body":"And that means counting everyone for one and not taking anyone to be worth more"},{"startTime":497.285,"endTime":498.965,"body":"politically than anyone else."},{"startTime":499.785,"endTime":506.272,"body":"And some of you may have heard me explain an aggression lecture last week that"},{"startTime":506.272,"endTime":512.76,"body":"democratic equality was called by Aristotle arithmetic in counting each person as one as opposed"},{"startTime":512.76,"endTime":517.085,"body":"to geometric equality that would weigh worth and merit differentially."},{"startTime":520.304,"endTime":526.624,"body":"So these values combine these democratic views of freedom and equality to suggest that while"},{"startTime":526.624,"endTime":532.945,"body":"people would rather not be ruled by anyone else since they're all equal, and they"},{"startTime":532.945,"endTime":538.845,"body":"would be less absolutely free when they're subject to someone else as their ruler."},{"startTime":539.905,"endTime":546.623,"body":"But the next best thing is where democracy stakes its claim on the rotation of"},{"startTime":546.623,"endTime":553.341,"body":"office ruling and being ruled in turn, meaning that nobody gets to rule forever or"},{"startTime":553.341,"endTime":556.925,"body":"claim a special natural right to do so."},{"startTime":559.745,"endTime":566.685,"body":"So starting from those interpretations of the values of freedom and equality, Aristotle then compiled"},{"startTime":566.685,"endTime":569.925,"body":"a longer list of hallmarks of democracy."},{"startTime":571.545,"endTime":575.515,"body":"And here is that list in part, and I'm going to, this is a kind"},{"startTime":575.515,"endTime":576.045,"body":"of summary."},{"startTime":576.305,"endTime":579.725,"body":"I'm going to expand a little bit on each of these bullet points."},{"startTime":580.505,"endTime":585.005,"body":"So this is Aristotle's list and he starts from those definitions that we just considered."},{"startTime":585.025,"endTime":591.637,"body":"So he writes, such being our, our foundation, namely that account of liberty that we"},{"startTime":591.637,"endTime":595.605,"body":"just saw, the characteristics of democracy are as follows."},{"startTime":596.305,"endTime":601.446,"body":"So first of all, we is the one that we already looked at that the"},{"startTime":601.446,"endTime":606.588,"body":"appointment to all offices or caveat all, but those which ex which require experience and"},{"startTime":606.588,"endTime":608.645,"body":"skill should be made by lot."},{"startTime":608.945,"endTime":610.565,"body":"That's the first bullet point here."},{"startTime":611.195,"endTime":616.918,"body":"Then he goes on that no property qualification should be required for office or only"},{"startTime":616.918,"endTime":618.445,"body":"a very low one."},{"startTime":619.235,"endTime":624.126,"body":"I'll come back to that, that the tenure of all offices should be brief and"},{"startTime":624.126,"endTime":628.365,"body":"that no office is perpetual again, no one gets to hold office forever."},{"startTime":628.625,"endTime":632.165,"body":"We have rotation, ruling and being ruled in turn."},{"startTime":633.775,"endTime":638.926,"body":"Then he goes on that all should be eligible to be chosen as jurors and"},{"startTime":638.926,"endTime":642.705,"body":"more broadly to sit as judges in the most important matters."},{"startTime":642.925,"endTime":648.59,"body":"And we'll, he talks here about juries and also about the boards of auditors who"},{"startTime":648.59,"endTime":652.745,"body":"were selected by lot to hold the office holders to account."},{"startTime":653.885,"endTime":659.57,"body":"And then finally that the assembly should vote and be decisive on all issues or"},{"startTime":659.57,"endTime":661.465,"body":"at least the most important."},{"startTime":662.405,"endTime":667.385,"body":"So this is Aristotle's list of the characteristic hallmarks of democracy."},{"startTime":669.125,"endTime":670.185,"body":"Now look at that list."},{"startTime":671.105,"endTime":672.745,"body":"Elections barely feature."},{"startTime":673.415,"endTime":677.945,"body":"They're only there in that all but skilled clause in the first bullet point."},{"startTime":678.005,"endTime":683.745,"body":"But they're not the hallmark of ancient democracy as Aristotle observed it or analyzed it."},{"startTime":684.965,"endTime":690.56,"body":"But conversely, it's not crucial according to the second bullet point that everyone should be"},{"startTime":690.56,"endTime":692.425,"body":"able to stand for office."},{"startTime":692.755,"endTime":698.499,"body":"There can be a very low property threshold that would mean that the very poorest"},{"startTime":698.499,"endTime":699.265,"body":"cannot stand."},{"startTime":699.445,"endTime":702.225,"body":"That's what the second bullet point allows."},{"startTime":703.285,"endTime":709.505,"body":"What's really most important is that the offices rotate, no offices perpetual."},{"startTime":710.205,"endTime":711.705,"body":"And here we have a freeze."},{"startTime":712.125,"endTime":717.381,"body":"The second figure from the right is an Athenian office holder, an Aon who's being"},{"startTime":717.381,"endTime":720.885,"body":"handed something by the child who's at the far right."},{"startTime":721.545,"endTime":723.525,"body":"So no office is perpetual."},{"startTime":723.545,"endTime":728.775,"body":"The Aon, the A Contes only served for a single year and all the Athenian"},{"startTime":728.775,"endTime":731.565,"body":"offices were held to terms of one year."},{"startTime":733.035,"endTime":737.405,"body":"Also that there are popular judges who decide on lawsuits."},{"startTime":737.505,"endTime":742.488,"body":"And here we see one of the pebbles that was used in order to allocate"},{"startTime":742.488,"endTime":743.485,"body":"jurors to cases."},{"startTime":744.625,"endTime":750.633,"body":"Um, and they also through lottery, chose the auditors as I mentioned in my first"},{"startTime":750.633,"endTime":756.642,"body":"Gresham lecture of this academic year, and that everyone, all male citizens should be able"},{"startTime":756.642,"endTime":758.645,"body":"to vote in an assembly."},{"startTime":758.945,"endTime":763.313,"body":"And this is where the assembly in Athens met on the hill of the p"},{"startTime":763.313,"endTime":763.605,"body":"nicks."},{"startTime":765.545,"endTime":771.618,"body":"So it's striking that on the one hand, election isn't the sign of democracy for"},{"startTime":771.618,"endTime":777.692,"body":"Aristotle or the Greeks that he's observing, but even the choice between election and lottery"},{"startTime":777.692,"endTime":783.765,"body":"was not really so significant as a matter of practice, lottery was more democratic, but"},{"startTime":783.765,"endTime":787.005,"body":"they could still use election for some purposes."},{"startTime":787.795,"endTime":793.993,"body":"What was really important was that both were means of choosing office holders who held"},{"startTime":793.993,"endTime":800.192,"body":"powers of decision for a short term and that their actions as well as key"},{"startTime":800.192,"endTime":806.391,"body":"state policies and most court cases were decisively controlled by the rest of the citizen"},{"startTime":806.391,"endTime":806.805,"body":"body."},{"startTime":810.465,"endTime":817.585,"body":"Now, since at least the 18th century, commentators have dismissed ancient Greek politics, including ancient"},{"startTime":817.585,"endTime":824.705,"body":"Greek democracy as a model that's irrelevant to the commercial bureaucratic, large scale societies that"},{"startTime":824.705,"endTime":831.826,"body":"had already come into being in the 18th century and that most of us continue"},{"startTime":831.826,"endTime":833.725,"body":"to live in today."},{"startTime":835.185,"endTime":842.635,"body":"And commentators have dismissed those ancient models by setting up two fundamental oppositions between ancient"},{"startTime":842.635,"endTime":844.125,"body":"and modern politics."},{"startTime":845.345,"endTime":852.235,"body":"So these oppositions and they overlap, as I'll explain, are between ancient and modern liberty,"},{"startTime":852.235,"endTime":859.126,"body":"which was argued by Benjamin Al and what we've come to call direct democracy versus"},{"startTime":859.126,"endTime":860.045,"body":"representative democracy."},{"startTime":860.265,"endTime":864.622,"body":"And I'm going to talk about this in the work of James Madison, though he,"},{"startTime":864.622,"endTime":866.365,"body":"he didn't use exactly those terms."},{"startTime":868.665,"endTime":874.887,"body":"So first of all, I want to talk about this distinction between ancient and modern"},{"startTime":874.887,"endTime":881.11,"body":"liberty that was introduced in a lecture in 1819 by the French political thinker Benjamin"},{"startTime":881.11,"endTime":881.525,"body":"Kal."},{"startTime":882.545,"endTime":890.57,"body":"And Kal argued that Athenian style democracy and Greek politics generally was just suited to"},{"startTime":890.57,"endTime":893.245,"body":"modern economic and social life."},{"startTime":894.945,"endTime":899.989,"body":"And this is because modern people, modern in the 18th century, already as constant saw"},{"startTime":899.989,"endTime":905.033,"body":"things, uh, already in the 18th century, in the early 19th century when he was"},{"startTime":905.033,"endTime":909.405,"body":"speaking modern people are caught up in the pursuit of their commercial interests."},{"startTime":910.875,"endTime":916.431,"body":"They as opposed to having the leisure to pursue politics, which had been bought for"},{"startTime":916.431,"endTime":919.765,"body":"the Athenians in effect by the enslavement of others."},{"startTime":921.705,"endTime":927.664,"body":"So constant further claim that this made modern ideas of freedom, something completely different from"},{"startTime":927.664,"endTime":930.445,"body":"how the ancient Greeks thought of freedom."},{"startTime":931.225,"endTime":936.365,"body":"He was thinking of Sparta even more than Athens, but talking about Athens too."},{"startTime":937.585,"endTime":945.19,"body":"So on Conant's view, ancient liberty meant as he wrote, exercising collectively, but directly several"},{"startTime":945.19,"endTime":947.725,"body":"parts of the complete sovereignty."},{"startTime":949.145,"endTime":954.725,"body":"But modern liberty met the freedom to busy oneself with private life as constant."},{"startTime":954.835,"endTime":959.005,"body":"Also put it the enjoyment of security in private pleasures."},{"startTime":960.505,"endTime":967.237,"body":"So for constant ancient Greek liberty was active participation in political decisions, but this was"},{"startTime":967.237,"endTime":971.725,"body":"out of reach and out of step with modern concerns."},{"startTime":973.745,"endTime":976.285,"body":"So that was Constance version of the opposition."},{"startTime":976.785,"endTime":983.085,"body":"And the second opposition, which I'm just calling between ancient democracy and modern democracy, had"},{"startTime":983.085,"endTime":989.385,"body":"been advanced a generation or so before by James Madison who had studied at Princeton"},{"startTime":989.385,"endTime":989.805,"body":"University."},{"startTime":989.905,"endTime":992.925,"body":"So he's someone of whom Princeton is, is proud."},{"startTime":993.865,"endTime":995.005,"body":"And he was later."},{"startTime":995.185,"endTime":1001.125,"body":"And, and this distinction was later given this label direct democracy versus representative democracy."},{"startTime":1001.465,"endTime":1007.688,"body":"See, so this distinction overlaps with Constance in holding that the ancient Greeks had the"},{"startTime":1007.688,"endTime":1013.911,"body":"luxury thanks to slavery of spending a lot of time directly doing politics, whereas modern"},{"startTime":1013.911,"endTime":1017.645,"body":"citizens have to spend our time earning a living."},{"startTime":1018.145,"endTime":1023.685,"body":"So we can't participate as actively, nor do most people wish to do so."},{"startTime":1024.665,"endTime":1027.645,"body":"But Madison added the point that it's not practical."},{"startTime":1027.785,"endTime":1034.568,"body":"He claimed in modern large scale societies for people to be directly engaged in key"},{"startTime":1034.568,"endTime":1035.925,"body":"political decision making."},{"startTime":1036.983,"endTime":1044.981,"body":"So he emphasized, for example, in Federalist Paper 10, that the institution of representation could"},{"startTime":1044.981,"endTime":1052.979,"body":"allow for political freedom because people could self-rule by electing the representatives who would then"},{"startTime":1052.979,"endTime":1055.645,"body":"make decisions on their behalf."},{"startTime":1057.625,"endTime":1064.535,"body":"And Madison also answered, added that he thought that representation could help avoid a mob"},{"startTime":1064.535,"endTime":1071.445,"body":"rule psychology that he and other critics of ancient Athens thought had taken root there."},{"startTime":1073.185,"endTime":1078.181,"body":"So I wanna just take a moment to explain that concern about mob psychology, because"},{"startTime":1078.181,"endTime":1083.178,"body":"often when we talk about ancient democracy, this, this sort of concern is lurking in"},{"startTime":1083.178,"endTime":1083.845,"body":"the background."},{"startTime":1084.865,"endTime":1090.455,"body":"So let me take two examples that are often given in which people then interpret"},{"startTime":1090.455,"endTime":1096.045,"body":"ancient Athens as having engaged at least at times in a kind of mob rule."},{"startTime":1097.455,"endTime":1103.82,"body":"So the first is an infamous vote by the Athenian assembly in 4 2 7,"},{"startTime":1103.82,"endTime":1110.186,"body":"BCE to punish the people of an allied p who had sought to secede from"},{"startTime":1110.186,"endTime":1111.035,"body":"that alliance."},{"startTime":1111.495,"endTime":1116.275,"body":"So this was the P of Menini, and this is a view of modern menini."},{"startTime":1117.415,"endTime":1123.818,"body":"So the Athenian assembly voted to impose a draconian punishment on the middle linean to"},{"startTime":1123.818,"endTime":1129.795,"body":"kill all of the men of the p and enslave the women and children."},{"startTime":1131.615,"endTime":1137.322,"body":"But the very next day, the Athenian assembly reconvened and it decided to reverse that"},{"startTime":1137.322,"endTime":1143.03,"body":"decision, and that led to a desperate rush to send out a faster ship to"},{"startTime":1143.03,"endTime":1146.075,"body":"try to get the message there in time."},{"startTime":1146.255,"endTime":1151.395,"body":"We read about this in Acidities and fortunately, the second ship arrived just in time."},{"startTime":1153.015,"endTime":1160.138,"body":"Now the Athenians thought better of that initial draconian impulse, but the drastic reversal of"},{"startTime":1160.138,"endTime":1167.261,"body":"these two votes only a day apart, has led many observers to argue that ancient"},{"startTime":1167.261,"endTime":1173.435,"body":"Athenian decision making was inherently impulsive, vulnerable to whim and so deeply flawed."},{"startTime":1174.815,"endTime":1181.851,"body":"And similarly, many commentators have been highly critical of a different decision a generation later"},{"startTime":1181.851,"endTime":1188.888,"body":"in 3 9 9 made not by the assembly, but by a popular jury to"},{"startTime":1188.888,"endTime":1195.925,"body":"convict Socrates of impiety and corrupting the youth and to sentence him to death by"},{"startTime":1195.925,"endTime":1201.555,"body":"drinking poison, um, in the form of hemlock as we see here."},{"startTime":1204.015,"endTime":1210.551,"body":"So against these kinds of stories about how ancient democracy could go wrong, Madison argued"},{"startTime":1210.551,"endTime":1217.087,"body":"that electing a senate, especially an upper house, would help to moderate passions and foster"},{"startTime":1217.087,"endTime":1218.395,"body":"more reasoned debate."},{"startTime":1219.455,"endTime":1225.114,"body":"So in my next Gresham lecture, I'm going to zero in further on this question"},{"startTime":1225.114,"endTime":1227.755,"body":"of the relationship of democracy to knowledge."},{"startTime":1228.895,"endTime":1235.184,"body":"But for today, I want to return to the oppositions that ancient and modern liberty"},{"startTime":1235.184,"endTime":1240.635,"body":"and ancient and modern democracy, these oppositions that constant and Madison set up."},{"startTime":1242.015,"endTime":1248.796,"body":"So on these views, again to summarize, instead of ancient liberty coming from direct political"},{"startTime":1248.796,"endTime":1255.125,"body":"participation, modern liberty is supposed to be freedom from having to participate in politics."},{"startTime":1255.985,"endTime":1259.405,"body":"And there's some intuitive plausibility to this claim."},{"startTime":1260.225,"endTime":1265.82,"body":"So think of the way that many people today try to find a way out"},{"startTime":1265.82,"endTime":1268.805,"body":"of jury service if they've been randomly called."},{"startTime":1268.915,"endTime":1274.871,"body":"Many people try to find ways to not actually have to serve, to give excuses"},{"startTime":1274.871,"endTime":1280.828,"body":"to, to not serve, as opposed to the Athenians who tended to flock to the"},{"startTime":1280.828,"endTime":1284.005,"body":"courts eager to make themselves important by serving."},{"startTime":1284.665,"endTime":1291.652,"body":"And in one of Aristophanes's comedies, the Wasps, um, he mocks an elderly man named"},{"startTime":1291.652,"endTime":1295.845,"body":"Phil Cleon as what he calls a Phil Sase."},{"startTime":1296.465,"endTime":1301.405,"body":"And one person has translated that as quote, a jury service addict."},{"startTime":1302.385,"endTime":1305.005,"body":"So the ancient Greeks were jury service addicts."},{"startTime":1305.145,"endTime":1307.325,"body":"We tend to be jury service averse."},{"startTime":1307.665,"endTime":1312.165,"body":"Um, I hope, I'm not speaking for anyone in this room, but I've observed this"},{"startTime":1312.165,"endTime":1313.965,"body":"with unnamed colleagues, um, and friends."},{"startTime":1315.745,"endTime":1320.325,"body":"But must we accept the terms of these stark oppositions?"},{"startTime":1322.465,"endTime":1328.82,"body":"So rather than put ancient and modern liberty, ancient and modern democracy in these two"},{"startTime":1328.82,"endTime":1335.175,"body":"opposed buckets, I think we can gain more insight by comparing distinct powers of decision"},{"startTime":1335.175,"endTime":1338.565,"body":"and control that we find in both systems."},{"startTime":1340.185,"endTime":1349.015,"body":"Indeed, the Athenian political leader, parles pictured here, emphasized that the Athenian majority were the"},{"startTime":1349.015,"endTime":1353.725,"body":"ones who decide what is to be done."},{"startTime":1353.945,"endTime":1356.565,"body":"So I wanna really emphasize this role of deciding."},{"startTime":1357.865,"endTime":1363.685,"body":"And so if democratic freedom is a way of exercising decision and control, sometimes that's"},{"startTime":1363.685,"endTime":1369.505,"body":"done directly other times at a distance or through a representative, sometimes as an office"},{"startTime":1369.505,"endTime":1371.445,"body":"holder or an assembly member."},{"startTime":1371.855,"endTime":1376.723,"body":"Other times by getting to control others as a member of a board of auditors"},{"startTime":1376.723,"endTime":1379.645,"body":"or as a juror getting to decide a lawsuit."},{"startTime":1381.825,"endTime":1387.578,"body":"So in my view, ancient and modern democracies are more like two different mosaics with"},{"startTime":1387.578,"endTime":1393.331,"body":"different concentrations of stones in different places, not so much like two utterly different art"},{"startTime":1393.331,"endTime":1399.085,"body":"forms altogether, which is I think the picture that we get from Madison and Kung."},{"startTime":1399.905,"endTime":1405.293,"body":"So they share this idea that all should sit in judgment, all should get to"},{"startTime":1405.293,"endTime":1409.245,"body":"decide even though they can implement that idea in different ways."},{"startTime":1411.025,"endTime":1415.816,"body":"And so in the final part of the lecture, I'll explore how the stones might"},{"startTime":1415.816,"endTime":1420.607,"body":"be rearranged in the modern mosaic to capture some of the spirit of the ancient"},{"startTime":1420.607,"endTime":1421.885,"body":"one a bit better."},{"startTime":1423.025,"endTime":1428.325,"body":"But before that, my next step will be to expand on ancient Greek deia."},{"startTime":1428.745,"endTime":1434.295,"body":"So I'm going to step back for a few moments to explain its etymology as"},{"startTime":1434.295,"endTime":1436.885,"body":"a term and how it emerged historically."},{"startTime":1437.385,"endTime":1443.371,"body":"And then I'll come back to talk about ways that we might try to integrate"},{"startTime":1443.371,"endTime":1446.165,"body":"some elements of damia into modern democracy."},{"startTime":1449.145,"endTime":1454.824,"body":"So let's actually look at the terms that the Greeks used for different kinds of"},{"startTime":1454.824,"endTime":1460.125,"body":"constitutions in order to see what was different about Damia as they understood it."},{"startTime":1462.595,"endTime":1467.095,"body":"So here are three canonical types of Greek constitutions."},{"startTime":1468.355,"endTime":1471.775,"body":"And you can see, or perhaps if it the print, the type is too small."},{"startTime":1471.935,"endTime":1477.155,"body":"I will explain that mo, that two of them, the first two are both form"},{"startTime":1477.155,"endTime":1478.895,"body":"formed from the same root."},{"startTime":1479.555,"endTime":1486.775,"body":"So monarchy means a soul or unique, a single ruler or office holder."},{"startTime":1487.235,"endTime":1491.935,"body":"So monarchia is formed from the root rk, which means rule or office."},{"startTime":1492.715,"endTime":1498.598,"body":"And oligarch is formed from the root for a few people and the same root"},{"startTime":1498.598,"endTime":1499.775,"body":"for or office."},{"startTime":1500.515,"endTime":1507.008,"body":"So both of these are straightforward in a monarchy, one person rules and in an"},{"startTime":1507.008,"endTime":1513.502,"body":"oligarchy, a few people rule, they monopolize the positions of office, the positions of political"},{"startTime":1513.502,"endTime":1513.935,"body":"authority."},{"startTime":1515.235,"endTime":1518.095,"body":"But as you can see, dmo cretia is different."},{"startTime":1518.555,"endTime":1520.695,"body":"It doesn't have that re root."},{"startTime":1521.515,"endTime":1527.547,"body":"Its root is not rule or office, but the word cratos, which means strength or"},{"startTime":1527.547,"endTime":1532.775,"body":"power, and damos as we'll talk about more in a moment, means people."},{"startTime":1533.275,"endTime":1539.998,"body":"So damia doesn't say that people rule or hold office, it says the people have"},{"startTime":1539.998,"endTime":1540.895,"body":"the power."},{"startTime":1541.605,"endTime":1547.432,"body":"Deia is people power, but self, evidently this can't mean, and it doesn't mean that"},{"startTime":1547.432,"endTime":1552.095,"body":"all the people rule and that they all simultaneously hold the offices."},{"startTime":1552.445,"endTime":1553.735,"body":"That wouldn't be possible."},{"startTime":1554.515,"endTime":1559.331,"body":"So there has to be a different kind of power that's involved in this cratos"},{"startTime":1559.331,"endTime":1560.295,"body":"of the demos."},{"startTime":1561.835,"endTime":1568.22,"body":"So the classist and political scientist, Josiah Ober, has interpreted this cratos as what he"},{"startTime":1568.22,"endTime":1570.775,"body":"calls the power to do things."},{"startTime":1571.715,"endTime":1577.582,"body":"And so building on that idea, I wanna suggest that we should understand, again, this"},{"startTime":1577.582,"endTime":1583.449,"body":"democratic power to do things specifically as a power to decide again to decide between"},{"startTime":1583.449,"endTime":1588.535,"body":"rival speakers to decide as a member of a jury to make decisions."},{"startTime":1588.795,"endTime":1594.783,"body":"If you do get to hold office for a term, Soia was the power to"},{"startTime":1594.783,"endTime":1599.575,"body":"make things happen, as Ober says, by deciding on what should happen."},{"startTime":1601.645,"endTime":1608.095,"body":"So, so, so far I focused on Kratos, but DEOs also has significance in understanding"},{"startTime":1608.095,"endTime":1610.245,"body":"the original meaning of democracy."},{"startTime":1611.105,"endTime":1613.725,"body":"For it could be interpreted in one of two ways."},{"startTime":1614.955,"endTime":1620.257,"body":"DEOs could mean the people as a whole, but it could also mean specifically the"},{"startTime":1620.257,"endTime":1620.965,"body":"common people."},{"startTime":1621.905,"endTime":1623.845,"body":"So how are these two meanings related?"},{"startTime":1625.585,"endTime":1630.616,"body":"So when we think about democracy today, we tend to assume that democracy means all"},{"startTime":1630.616,"endTime":1632.965,"body":"the people, the people as a whole."},{"startTime":1634.065,"endTime":1638.405,"body":"But democracy then tends to decide by majority rule."},{"startTime":1639.065,"endTime":1644.315,"body":"So it turns out that it's the many whoever they are who will in practice"},{"startTime":1644.315,"endTime":1646.765,"body":"decide on behalf of the whole people."},{"startTime":1648.065,"endTime":1654.365,"body":"And so this is why Aristotle wrote in the politics that in a democracy quote,"},{"startTime":1654.365,"endTime":1659.405,"body":"the majority is supreme, or as parles, again, put it in name."},{"startTime":1659.985,"endTime":1666.441,"body":"Our Athenian constitution is called a democracy because it is managed not for a few"},{"startTime":1666.441,"endTime":1669.885,"body":"people like an oligarchy, but for the majority."},{"startTime":1671.785,"endTime":1678.332,"body":"And as all of these participants and observers of ancient democratic life tended to emphasize"},{"startTime":1678.332,"endTime":1684.88,"body":"the many or the majority in an ancient Greek society was always in practice, the"},{"startTime":1684.88,"endTime":1689.245,"body":"common people, the relatively poor as contrasted with the elite."},{"startTime":1689.785,"endTime":1693.199,"body":"So that's how we get from the demo mosts as all the people to the"},{"startTime":1693.199,"endTime":1694.565,"body":"demo mosts as the common people."},{"startTime":1695.025,"endTime":1699.885,"body":"The common people exercise the majority power within the people as a whole."},{"startTime":1699.945,"endTime":1704.965,"body":"And so it's their preferences that they have the power to enact."},{"startTime":1707.505,"endTime":1711.805,"body":"But again, that doesn't mean that the poor held every political role."},{"startTime":1712.625,"endTime":1718.835,"body":"And actually as we saw from the beginning, those who were elected to serve as"},{"startTime":1718.835,"endTime":1725.045,"body":"generals and financial officials in Athens actually tended to be overwhelmingly from the wealthy elite."},{"startTime":1725.785,"endTime":1731.496,"body":"So one historian remarks, and I quote the poor in Athens regularly elected the rich,"},{"startTime":1731.496,"endTime":1735.685,"body":"measured and well educated to the chief positions in the state."},{"startTime":1736.345,"endTime":1741.38,"body":"So again, when they used election, they did pick people kind of who were from"},{"startTime":1741.38,"endTime":1746.415,"body":"the elite typically, but what mattered the people power was not that even the people"},{"startTime":1746.415,"endTime":1748.765,"body":"all got to talk in the assembly."},{"startTime":1749.265,"endTime":1754.555,"body":"The same historian points out that even the speakers in the assembly tended to differ"},{"startTime":1754.555,"endTime":1759.845,"body":"in social position as I as he puts it from the majority of the citizens."},{"startTime":1759.865,"endTime":1763.245,"body":"And that's a historian named mm Markle the Third."},{"startTime":1764.975,"endTime":1770.425,"body":"So rather the people power, the power of the majority lay in being able to"},{"startTime":1770.425,"endTime":1775.875,"body":"decide which speaker's advice to follow, being able to decide on a court case and"},{"startTime":1775.875,"endTime":1780.235,"body":"again to rotate in and out of the lower offices by lot."},{"startTime":1783.075,"endTime":1787.575,"body":"Now I want to take a moment to acknowledge that these sorts of ideas are"},{"startTime":1787.575,"endTime":1789.375,"body":"not only found in ancient Greece."},{"startTime":1790.275,"endTime":1792.655,"body":"And I wanna take just one further case."},{"startTime":1793.435,"endTime":1800.763,"body":"The scholar Tejas Parer has described how a group of three Indian historians writing in"},{"startTime":1800.763,"endTime":1808.092,"body":"the early 20th century, as he puts it, held up a historic Indian constitution as"},{"startTime":1808.092,"endTime":1810.535,"body":"an alternative to representative democracy."},{"startTime":1811.115,"endTime":1817.698,"body":"And these historians were talking about the third century BCE Morian empire, especially under the"},{"startTime":1817.698,"endTime":1819.015,"body":"emperor as Soca."},{"startTime":1820.195,"endTime":1824.676,"body":"So this is actually just a century after the classical Greek period that I'm talking"},{"startTime":1824.676,"endTime":1824.975,"body":"about."},{"startTime":1826.155,"endTime":1833.471,"body":"And Perisher traces how these historians emphasized that there were territorial assemblies that were open"},{"startTime":1833.471,"endTime":1834.935,"body":"to citizen participation."},{"startTime":1835.485,"endTime":1840.916,"body":"Some of them even use lot to choose subcommittees and all officials had to render"},{"startTime":1840.916,"endTime":1844.175,"body":"accounts at the end of their terms of office."},{"startTime":1845.395,"endTime":1851.609,"body":"And this was advanced by these historians, Radha Ud Mukherjee and his colleagues as a"},{"startTime":1851.609,"endTime":1854.095,"body":"model for modern democracy in India."},{"startTime":1854.095,"endTime":1856.215,"body":"This is the modern Indian Parliament."},{"startTime":1857.845,"endTime":1865.873,"body":"Or to take another example, Karl Marx celebrated the way that the revolutionary Paris commune"},{"startTime":1865.873,"endTime":1873.902,"body":"in 1871 pictured here was also formed of municipal counselors as Marx wrote, chosen by"},{"startTime":1873.902,"endTime":1878.185,"body":"universal suffrage, responsible and revocable at short terms."},{"startTime":1878.645,"endTime":1881.345,"body":"That's marks on the Civil War in France."},{"startTime":1882.805,"endTime":1888.602,"body":"So in highlighting ancient Greek models of democracy, I really wanna highlight these ideas of"},{"startTime":1888.602,"endTime":1894.399,"body":"rotation, of lottery, of accountability that actually I think have a much wider purchase and"},{"startTime":1894.399,"endTime":1897.105,"body":"come to us from many different traditions."},{"startTime":1897.485,"endTime":1902.401,"body":"And again, that might encourage us in thinking that we can recover them in important"},{"startTime":1902.401,"endTime":1903.385,"body":"ways, um, today."},{"startTime":1906.615,"endTime":1911.915,"body":"So how did democracy come into being in Athens and in other Greek city states?"},{"startTime":1912.495,"endTime":1916.924,"body":"And this is the penultimate part of the lecture before we we turn to lessons"},{"startTime":1916.924,"endTime":1917.515,"body":"for today."},{"startTime":1918.975,"endTime":1925.058,"body":"So it wasn't an all or nothing affair and it's actually surprisingly difficult to pinpoint"},{"startTime":1925.058,"endTime":1926.275,"body":"a single date."},{"startTime":1926.275,"endTime":1931.617,"body":"There's not one date that we can say that all historians would agree that's the"},{"startTime":1931.617,"endTime":1933.755,"body":"date that Athens became a democracy."},{"startTime":1934.575,"endTime":1940.337,"body":"And this is because there were so many different values and institutions that had to"},{"startTime":1940.337,"endTime":1945.715,"body":"emerge and coalesce before something that we recognized as de Moraia took full shape."},{"startTime":1947.455,"endTime":1952.971,"body":"So Athens was a polls, it was one of about a thousand different p communities"},{"startTime":1952.971,"endTime":1954.075,"body":"in ancient Greece."},{"startTime":1954.815,"endTime":1957.955,"body":"We often call it as a ps a city state."},{"startTime":1958.655,"endTime":1959.925,"body":"And we can see it here."},{"startTime":1960.185,"endTime":1966.072,"body":"Um, looking up, um, at the Parthenon, um, as the historian moans Herman Hanson has"},{"startTime":1966.072,"endTime":1971.96,"body":"suggested perhaps we should call translate policy instead as a citizen state, because what was"},{"startTime":1971.96,"endTime":1975.885,"body":"really important about it was the body of participating citizens."},{"startTime":1976.985,"endTime":1983.18,"body":"And Apol is typically consisted of a single urban core, like this urban center of"},{"startTime":1983.18,"endTime":1986.485,"body":"Athens that was surrounded by an agricultural hinterland."},{"startTime":1987.025,"endTime":1991.767,"body":"And it would be typically populated by anywhere from a few thousand people up to"},{"startTime":1991.767,"endTime":1995.245,"body":"a quarter of a million who inhabited Athens at its peak."},{"startTime":1995.785,"endTime":2001.845,"body":"And we think there were somewhere between 30 and 60,000 citizen men with full citizen"},{"startTime":2001.845,"endTime":2005.885,"body":"privileges again at its peak in the time of Parles."},{"startTime":2007.745,"endTime":2012.176,"body":"So here's just a brief timeline, and I'm going to talk about some of the"},{"startTime":2012.176,"endTime":2014.245,"body":"moments in this timeline in more detail."},{"startTime":2014.955,"endTime":2020.493,"body":"Some of you heard me talk two lectures ago about Solan, the Athenian law giver"},{"startTime":2020.493,"endTime":2024.925,"body":"in the early sixth century who laid the foundations for Athenian democracy."},{"startTime":2025.715,"endTime":2031.294,"body":"Then we have the fifth century, and many people put an end to the classical"},{"startTime":2031.294,"endTime":2036.873,"body":"period at least, of Athenian democracy in the late fourth century in 3 2, 2"},{"startTime":2036.873,"endTime":2037.245,"body":"BCE."},{"startTime":2038.705,"endTime":2043.485,"body":"But so what happened in Athens to democratize it in the course of this period?"},{"startTime":2045.385,"endTime":2049.49,"body":"So here we can draw on an amazing text I've put here ascribed it to"},{"startTime":2049.49,"endTime":2049.764,"body":"Aristotle."},{"startTime":2049.764,"endTime":2054.894,"body":"It may actually have been by his students, it's called the Constitution of Athens or"},{"startTime":2054.894,"endTime":2056.605,"body":"the Constitution of the Athenians."},{"startTime":2057.225,"endTime":2062.812,"body":"And it was long thought, completely lost until a large part of it was discovered"},{"startTime":2062.812,"endTime":2066.165,"body":"in 1891 on a papyrus in the British Museum."},{"startTime":2066.745,"endTime":2072.085,"body":"And this was one of a huge number of constitutions that Aristotle Circle wrote."},{"startTime":2072.385,"endTime":2076.284,"body":"And all the rest of them were lost except for this one part that we"},{"startTime":2076.284,"endTime":2077.844,"body":"have of the one about Athens."},{"startTime":2078.745,"endTime":2084.605,"body":"And what's really interesting in this document is that it highlights the moments that it"},{"startTime":2084.605,"endTime":2089.685,"body":"thinks were democratizing moments in that whole history that we just looked at."},{"startTime":2089.784,"endTime":2092.405,"body":"And so I wanna highlight a few of those points."},{"startTime":2094.264,"endTime":2101.65,"body":"So first of all, um, the Constitution of Athens says, well, Solen had certain features"},{"startTime":2101.65,"endTime":2104.605,"body":"that acted in democratizing the constitution."},{"startTime":2104.975,"endTime":2110.987,"body":"Again, it's kind of anachronistic solen didn't use the word damia, that's a fifth century"},{"startTime":2110.987,"endTime":2116.999,"body":"word, but looking back, Aristotle and his students thought Solan had done these actions that"},{"startTime":2116.999,"endTime":2119.805,"body":"had led to the institution of democracy."},{"startTime":2121.105,"endTime":2126.91,"body":"And here I'm gonna highlight especially the right of appeal, of a appeal to the"},{"startTime":2126.91,"endTime":2128.845,"body":"de Caston, the popular court."},{"startTime":2129.265,"endTime":2131.645,"body":"And we'll come back in a moment to why that's so."},{"startTime":2132.905,"endTime":2135.485,"body":"But then there's this other interesting moment, ."},{"startTime":2135.485,"endTime":2140.33,"body":"So you may have noticed on the previous slide, Kanese comes to power in 5"},{"startTime":2140.33,"endTime":2145.175,"body":"0 8 to 5 0 7 in a popular revolution against a family of tyrants"},{"startTime":2145.175,"endTime":2148.405,"body":"that had ruled Athens then for a couple of generations."},{"startTime":2149.425,"endTime":2152.925,"body":"And what Kanese did was to reorganize the tribes."},{"startTime":2152.925,"endTime":2159.267,"body":"And again, this text says these changes made the constitution much more democratic than it"},{"startTime":2159.267,"endTime":2161.805,"body":"had been under Solen and Parles."},{"startTime":2161.825,"endTime":2164.325,"body":"It makes the state still more democratic."},{"startTime":2164.465,"endTime":2168.993,"body":"And one way that Parles did that was to introduce pay again for those who"},{"startTime":2168.993,"endTime":2170.805,"body":"were serving in the popular courts."},{"startTime":2172.265,"endTime":2175.485,"body":"So this is another version of Aristotle's game, right?"},{"startTime":2175.555,"endTime":2177.325,"body":"What are the characteristics of democracy?"},{"startTime":2177.945,"endTime":2182.685,"body":"Why are these the characteristics that help to make Athens more democratic?"},{"startTime":2183.745,"endTime":2188.958,"body":"So again, we see, especially under Solen, the the third bullet point under Solen, the"},{"startTime":2188.958,"endTime":2194.172,"body":"importance of the people controlling the courts because it's the right to vote in the"},{"startTime":2194.172,"endTime":2196.605,"body":"courts to be decisive in the courts."},{"startTime":2196.875,"endTime":2200.765,"body":"That gives them the power to control the Constitution."},{"startTime":2200.785,"endTime":2205.085,"body":"We can also translate that to be sovereign in the Constitution."},{"startTime":2205.755,"endTime":2212.205,"body":"This is because a jury has the ultimate power over, over each individual person's fate"},{"startTime":2212.205,"endTime":2213.925,"body":"who's on trial, right?"},{"startTime":2213.925,"endTime":2219.559,"body":"So the jury's power to decide on the fate of each person is the ultimate"},{"startTime":2219.559,"endTime":2222.565,"body":"case of democracy as all ruling over each."},{"startTime":2224.225,"endTime":2228.518,"body":"Now, you might think that in this story, K's role is a little bit strange,"},{"startTime":2228.518,"endTime":2228.805,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2228.805,"endTime":2233.205,"body":"We don't usually think of reorganizing tribes as a key feature of democracy."},{"startTime":2233.815,"endTime":2238.253,"body":"Again, if I'd asked you at the beginning what makes democracy, many of you would've"},{"startTime":2238.253,"endTime":2238.845,"body":"said elections."},{"startTime":2238.885,"endTime":2241.925,"body":"I don't think anybody would've said reorganizing the tribes."},{"startTime":2242.865,"endTime":2249.322,"body":"But what's important about what ese did is that he created a sense of identity"},{"startTime":2249.322,"endTime":2251.045,"body":"as a democratic citizen."},{"startTime":2251.905,"endTime":2257.605,"body":"So he replaced the sort of archaic tribal affiliations, which put people at odds with"},{"startTime":2257.605,"endTime":2263.305,"body":"one another with these tribes that were made to give you a new identity as"},{"startTime":2263.305,"endTime":2264.445,"body":"a democratic citizen."},{"startTime":2264.505,"endTime":2272.26,"body":"And each tribe consisted of a grouping of localities, local deems that then populated each"},{"startTime":2272.26,"endTime":2274.845,"body":"tribe with representative political concerns."},{"startTime":2275.705,"endTime":2282.176,"body":"And the deems became so important that each Athenian would introduce themselves according to their"},{"startTime":2282.176,"endTime":2284.765,"body":"father's name and their deem membership."},{"startTime":2285.385,"endTime":2293.205,"body":"So Socrates would've introduced himself as Socrates, son of SCUs from the dean of que."},{"startTime":2294.185,"endTime":2300.354,"body":"So Kai's role here reminds us that democracy will only work if people see it"},{"startTime":2300.354,"endTime":2303.645,"body":"as central to their identities and their concerns."},{"startTime":2305.805,"endTime":2312.255,"body":"So how does this potted history bear on the com comparison and contrast between ancient"},{"startTime":2312.255,"endTime":2313.545,"body":"and modern democracy?"},{"startTime":2314.995,"endTime":2320.34,"body":"Well, it offers many points we might want to discuss, but in one way it"},{"startTime":2320.34,"endTime":2325.685,"body":"brings us back to where we began because it highlights the significance again, of lottery."},{"startTime":2325.945,"endTime":2331.361,"body":"So the courts, again, were chosen by lottery and we see that both under solen"},{"startTime":2331.361,"endTime":2332.445,"body":"and under parles."},{"startTime":2332.515,"endTime":2338.743,"body":"This law, this role of the jurors chosen by lot is crucial in having made"},{"startTime":2338.743,"endTime":2340.405,"body":"the constitution more democratic."},{"startTime":2341.585,"endTime":2348.301,"body":"And again, that's because elections restrict the opportunity to exercise decision and control, but lotteries"},{"startTime":2348.301,"endTime":2349.645,"body":"open it up."},{"startTime":2350.625,"endTime":2356.479,"body":"And so now in the conclusion to this lecture, I want to explore some ways"},{"startTime":2356.479,"endTime":2362.334,"body":"in which lotteries might help us to introduce wider opportunities for decision making and popular"},{"startTime":2362.334,"endTime":2362.725,"body":"control."},{"startTime":2363.145,"endTime":2369.213,"body":"And so they might help us to channel a bit of the spirit of ancient"},{"startTime":2369.213,"endTime":2372.045,"body":"deia into the mosaic of modern democracy."},{"startTime":2374.585,"endTime":2380.063,"body":"So of course we already use lottery today, we use it for jury selection just"},{"startTime":2380.063,"endTime":2381.525,"body":"as the Athenians did."},{"startTime":2382.145,"endTime":2388.348,"body":"And indeed the great historian of ancient Greece, George Groat pointed that out in the"},{"startTime":2388.348,"endTime":2394.551,"body":"19th century, challenging his contemporaries who tended to just dismiss Athenian lotteries as sort of"},{"startTime":2394.551,"endTime":2394.965,"body":"archaic."},{"startTime":2394.965,"endTime":2399.482,"body":"And behind the times grate said, well, we, we use lottery too in the case"},{"startTime":2399.482,"endTime":2400.085,"body":"of juries."},{"startTime":2401.265,"endTime":2405.685,"body":"So modern political scientists have suggested why not extend lottery further."},{"startTime":2406.545,"endTime":2413.129,"body":"We could extend it to choosing office holders to making public policy decisions and even"},{"startTime":2413.129,"endTime":2414.885,"body":"to auditing official performance."},{"startTime":2416.345,"endTime":2422.765,"body":"So in the case of choosing office holders, right, we might for example, use lottery"},{"startTime":2422.765,"endTime":2427.045,"body":"to select candidates for pri for primaries or for shortlists."},{"startTime":2427.265,"endTime":2433.808,"body":"We might use it to select municipal officials or to rotate presiding roles in parliamentary"},{"startTime":2433.808,"endTime":2434.245,"body":"institutions."},{"startTime":2434.705,"endTime":2441.383,"body":"The Athenians rotated their equivalent to the speaker of the house among lottery chosen participants"},{"startTime":2441.383,"endTime":2443.165,"body":"from the 10 tribes."},{"startTime":2444.265,"endTime":2450.19,"body":"So a number of modern scholars crats have argued that we should use lottery much"},{"startTime":2450.19,"endTime":2452.165,"body":"more extensively than we do."},{"startTime":2452.605,"endTime":2459.13,"body":"Scholars like Barbara Goodwin and Alex Guerrero to supplement and in some cases even replace"},{"startTime":2459.13,"endTime":2459.565,"body":"election."},{"startTime":2461.415,"endTime":2467.098,"body":"Now, we can also use lottery to choose bodies of citizens who can vote on"},{"startTime":2467.098,"endTime":2468.235,"body":"public policy questions."},{"startTime":2468.775,"endTime":2474.348,"body":"And this is again, akin to the Athenian council that was chosen by lot and"},{"startTime":2474.348,"endTime":2475.835,"body":"managed key policy decisions."},{"startTime":2476.695,"endTime":2481.701,"body":"And there have been a number of movements and experiments with what people call citizens"},{"startTime":2481.701,"endTime":2482.035,"body":"juries."},{"startTime":2482.555,"endTime":2485.235,"body":"I think they're better called citizens assemblies."},{"startTime":2485.435,"endTime":2487.915,"body":"'cause in this case they're not juries, they're really assemblies."},{"startTime":2488.185,"endTime":2492.595,"body":"Sometimes political scientists call them deliberative mini publics."},{"startTime":2493.065,"endTime":2499.569,"body":"So these have been championed by James Fishkin, Len Landor and others to try to"},{"startTime":2499.569,"endTime":2502.605,"body":"bring lotteries into modern policy decision making."},{"startTime":2503.985,"endTime":2509.923,"body":"Now in many cases, these include an extensive period of study and education for the"},{"startTime":2509.923,"endTime":2515.861,"body":"people chosen by lottery to serve on these bodies before they vote on what policy"},{"startTime":2515.861,"endTime":2517.445,"body":"suggestions they would recommend."},{"startTime":2518.305,"endTime":2520.405,"body":"And often their votes are merely advisory."},{"startTime":2520.705,"endTime":2525.955,"body":"So they might put a proposal forward and then it has to be enacted by"},{"startTime":2525.955,"endTime":2528.405,"body":"a legislature or a full citizen referendum."},{"startTime":2529.545,"endTime":2536.776,"body":"So for example, citizens assemblies of different kinds were used very success successfully in Ireland"},{"startTime":2536.776,"endTime":2543.525,"body":"to prepare the referenda on marriage equality in 2015 and on abortion in 2018."},{"startTime":2544.065,"endTime":2548.827,"body":"So these were a kind of example, not a full Democrat, but of channeling the"},{"startTime":2548.827,"endTime":2551.685,"body":"power of lottery in a, in a new way."},{"startTime":2553.585,"endTime":2560.67,"body":"But there's been much less experiment today with democratic lottery chosen auditors, which I've argued"},{"startTime":2560.67,"endTime":2567.755,"body":"today and in my previous lectures was really an essential part of ancient democracy and"},{"startTime":2567.755,"endTime":2569.645,"body":"ancient constitutionalism more broadly."},{"startTime":2570.345,"endTime":2576.704,"body":"So I'd like to suggest that we do experiment with boards of lottery selected citizen"},{"startTime":2576.704,"endTime":2583.063,"body":"auditors, um, who could field questions and complaints and be given powers to question and"},{"startTime":2583.063,"endTime":2589.422,"body":"publish on the performance of public officials that would help to capture the underlying democratic"},{"startTime":2589.422,"endTime":2595.781,"body":"characteristic that Atheris, who was a democratic leader in ancient Syracuse, is said to have"},{"startTime":2595.781,"endTime":2600.445,"body":"asserted this is, sorry, this is an image of ancient lottery."},{"startTime":2600.445,"endTime":2604.765,"body":"This is how they assigned the jurors to different cases."},{"startTime":2605.785,"endTime":2611.365,"body":"Um, but atheris asserted that the best judges of what they hear are the many."},{"startTime":2611.625,"endTime":2616.331,"body":"So again, the power of the majority, the power of lottery, we can channel that"},{"startTime":2616.331,"endTime":2616.645,"body":"further."},{"startTime":2618.355,"endTime":2625.885,"body":"So in drawing this conclusion, I'm inspired by the political thinker, CLR James pictured here,"},{"startTime":2625.885,"endTime":2633.416,"body":"who likewise turned back to the Athenian model as an inspiration for contemporary democracy in"},{"startTime":2633.416,"endTime":2637.935,"body":"his native Trinidad and as an inspiration more generally."},{"startTime":2638.555,"endTime":2645.055,"body":"And he did this, especially in his 1956 essay called Every Cook Can Govern."},{"startTime":2646.435,"endTime":2652.367,"body":"Now, James did describe Athens as a direct democracy, but he thought that it was"},{"startTime":2652.367,"endTime":2658.299,"body":"relevant to modern politics from the standpoint of what he called history as a living"},{"startTime":2658.299,"endTime":2658.695,"body":"thing."},{"startTime":2658.875,"endTime":2665.17,"body":"And I want to conclude with his words he wrote, we today who are faced"},{"startTime":2665.17,"endTime":2671.465,"body":"with the inability of representative government and parliamentary democracy to handle effectively the urgent problems"},{"startTime":2671.465,"endTime":2672.725,"body":"of the day."},{"startTime":2673.625,"endTime":2679.54,"body":"We can study and understand Greek democracy in a way that was impossible for a"},{"startTime":2679.54,"endTime":2685.456,"body":"man who lived in 1900 when representative government and parliamentary democracy seemed securely established for"},{"startTime":2685.456,"endTime":2686.245,"body":"all time."},{"startTime":2687.265,"endTime":2693.591,"body":"So James, in 1956 thought that the capacity of representative government to adequately address the"},{"startTime":2693.591,"endTime":2696.965,"body":"issues of the day was already under threat."},{"startTime":2697.505,"endTime":2700.405,"body":"We today, I think, have even more reason to think so."},{"startTime":2701.065,"endTime":2706.435,"body":"And so with James, I think we can not only appreciate the values of Greek"},{"startTime":2706.435,"endTime":2711.806,"body":"democracy, but also seek ways to realize them are fresh in our institutions and practices"},{"startTime":2711.806,"endTime":2712.165,"body":"today."},{"startTime":2712.655,"endTime":2713.085,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2724.855,"endTime":2727.165,"body":"Thank you Melissa for yes, another triumph."},{"startTime":2727.355,"endTime":2728.405,"body":"It's lovely to hear you."},{"startTime":2729.105,"endTime":2732.365,"body":"Um, as ever, we've got quite a few questions coming in online."},{"startTime":2732.435,"endTime":2735.125,"body":"I'll try and grab the spirit of one or two together."},{"startTime":2736.105,"endTime":2744.598,"body":"Um, and this first one is the models you've suggested for particularly for lottery chosen"},{"startTime":2744.598,"endTime":2745.165,"body":"auditors."},{"startTime":2746.025,"endTime":2751.907,"body":"Do you think that those have, uh, are there any systems in the world where"},{"startTime":2751.907,"endTime":2755.045,"body":"that could be implemented as it were immediately?"},{"startTime":2755.465,"endTime":2759.136,"body":"So the per person here is talking about different, you know, it doesn't apply in"},{"startTime":2759.136,"endTime":2760.605,"body":"different countries which we call democratic."},{"startTime":2761.545,"endTime":2768.045,"body":"Can they use these to arrive at a system which might work in every place?"},{"startTime":2768.065,"endTime":2772.885,"body":"Or are there somewhere it appears to be something you could imply impose more quickly?"},{"startTime":2773.635,"endTime":2776.685,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think I, that's a, that's an interesting question."},{"startTime":2777.185,"endTime":2780.696,"body":"You know, I think it's always easier in some ways to experiment at the more"},{"startTime":2780.696,"endTime":2781.165,"body":"local levels."},{"startTime":2781.265,"endTime":2785.976,"body":"So again, it might be something that one can introduce locally and then bring it"},{"startTime":2785.976,"endTime":2786.605,"body":"up nationally."},{"startTime":2786.905,"endTime":2791.88,"body":"You know, it's going to work better in places where you have, um, kind of,"},{"startTime":2791.88,"endTime":2796.855,"body":"you know, reasonably free press so that people will be able to have issues brought"},{"startTime":2796.855,"endTime":2801.83,"body":"to their attention that the auditors can then further investigate, and where the auditors can"},{"startTime":2801.83,"endTime":2806.805,"body":"also publish their conclusions and have their conclusions kind of hold sway with the electorate."},{"startTime":2807.105,"endTime":2810.9,"body":"So I think those would be cases where we would wanna look at, you know,"},{"startTime":2810.9,"endTime":2812.925,"body":"which sorts of places would be most hospitable."},{"startTime":2812.985,"endTime":2816.301,"body":"But I think, you know, I hope that we can be bold and we can"},{"startTime":2816.301,"endTime":2816.965,"body":"try things out."},{"startTime":2817.145,"endTime":2821.725,"body":"And you know, the, the purpose of this is to encourage political experimentation."},{"startTime":2821.825,"endTime":2825.925,"body":"It may not work everywhere, but that's not a reason, um, not to try."},{"startTime":2826.505,"endTime":2831.316,"body":"So almost following on from that, do you have any theories as to why modern"},{"startTime":2831.316,"endTime":2835.165,"body":"people will shy away from jury service when the Athenians did not?"},{"startTime":2835.595,"endTime":2838.045,"body":"What is it that makes us hesitant?"},{"startTime":2838.875,"endTime":2843.381,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think that this is where Constant and Madison are observing something"},{"startTime":2843.381,"endTime":2846.085,"body":"that is valid that we should take account of."},{"startTime":2846.145,"endTime":2851.045,"body":"So they would say, you know, it literally costs people time away from work."},{"startTime":2851.225,"endTime":2855.795,"body":"And the jury pay that we have, that remember we saw was introduced in Athens"},{"startTime":2855.795,"endTime":2856.405,"body":"by Parles."},{"startTime":2856.985,"endTime":2860.826,"body":"But in those days it was, it was an amount that was actually kind of"},{"startTime":2860.826,"endTime":2864.668,"body":"meaningful, at least to the poor people who were receiving pay for each day that"},{"startTime":2864.668,"endTime":2866.205,"body":"they saw it on a jury."},{"startTime":2866.265,"endTime":2869.605,"body":"And again, Aristophanes portrays that in the wasps."},{"startTime":2870.005,"endTime":2875.245,"body":"I think nowadays jury pay probably hasn't kept pace with at least many people's salaries."},{"startTime":2875.265,"endTime":2879.285,"body":"And so they feel that they're going to, you know, really be, um, shortchanged."},{"startTime":2879.595,"endTime":2884.509,"body":"It's also true that Athenian trials were much more limited in the time that they"},{"startTime":2884.509,"endTime":2885.165,"body":"could spend."},{"startTime":2885.385,"endTime":2887.845,"body":"It would be concluded in a single day."},{"startTime":2888.345,"endTime":2892.385,"body":"And so, you know, the difficulty of having to serve on trials that can go"},{"startTime":2892.385,"endTime":2896.425,"body":"on for weeks or months when you don't know how long that service will be"},{"startTime":2896.425,"endTime":2900.466,"body":"is also very difficult of course for people who have caring responsibilities and other kinds"},{"startTime":2900.466,"endTime":2901.005,"body":"of responsibilities."},{"startTime":2901.345,"endTime":2905.555,"body":"So I don't mean to minimize those difficulties, but again, actually by articulating them that"},{"startTime":2905.555,"endTime":2909.765,"body":"way, maybe then we can see some other pointers for things that we might change."},{"startTime":2910.055,"endTime":2914.246,"body":"Maybe we need to increase jury pay and maybe we need to look for ways"},{"startTime":2914.246,"endTime":2915.085,"body":"of limiting trials."},{"startTime":2915.305,"endTime":2917.845,"body":"Now of course, that might introduce further difficulties."},{"startTime":2917.985,"endTime":2923.835,"body":"We don't wanna short change people's opportunity, um, as defendants for justice, but again, there"},{"startTime":2923.835,"endTime":2929.685,"body":"might be ways that we can overall seek to re reframe the way that our"},{"startTime":2929.685,"endTime":2931.245,"body":"institutions, um, are operating."},{"startTime":2931.505,"endTime":2935.685,"body":"Uh, my question is whether you could have too much of, of a good thing."},{"startTime":2935.685,"endTime":2936.125,"body":"Mm-Hmm, \u003caffirmative\u003e."},{"startTime":2936.125,"endTime":2941.218,"body":"So you mentioned at the beginning of your talk about terms of office, and that"},{"startTime":2941.218,"endTime":2946.312,"body":"led me to think about the US Congress with two year terms of office, you"},{"startTime":2946.312,"endTime":2951.406,"body":"could barely, barely settle in within two years and here only four or five years"},{"startTime":2951.406,"endTime":2952.765,"body":"for a parliamentary term."},{"startTime":2953.105,"endTime":2958.065,"body":"Uh, shouldn't we, what are your thoughts about duration and what was the duration in"},{"startTime":2958.065,"endTime":2962.365,"body":"ancient Greece and, uh, what are your thoughts about a 10 year parliament"},{"startTime":2962.685,"endTime":2962.765,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e?"},{"startTime":2962.765,"endTime":2963.125,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2963.135,"endTime":2963.605,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2963.605,"endTime":2964.965,"body":"That's an excellent question."},{"startTime":2965.625,"endTime":2967.405,"body":"So this is actually interesting."},{"startTime":2967.545,"endTime":2972.292,"body":"So as I, as I mentioned, the typical ancient Greek term of office was only"},{"startTime":2972.292,"endTime":2972.925,"body":"a year."},{"startTime":2973.345,"endTime":2975.405,"body":"Now, some offices you could be reelected."},{"startTime":2975.465,"endTime":2979.805,"body":"So the generals, for example, in Athens could be reelected year after year."},{"startTime":2980.145,"endTime":2984.48,"body":"And again, that goes with the thought that they were elected because they were seeking"},{"startTime":2984.48,"endTime":2985.925,"body":"people with experience and skill."},{"startTime":2985.985,"endTime":2989.365,"body":"And so it sort of made sense that you would allow them to go further."},{"startTime":2989.745,"endTime":2994.165,"body":"So in that sense, they kind of recognize the deum that you're talking about, that"},{"startTime":2994.165,"endTime":2998.585,"body":"if you think experience and skill are what you're really looking for than a, you"},{"startTime":2998.585,"endTime":3003.005,"body":"know, sort of very limited term of office might undermine your ability to achieve that."},{"startTime":3003.465,"endTime":3006.96,"body":"But at the same time, I think there's still something very interesting in the idea"},{"startTime":3006.96,"endTime":3008.125,"body":"of the more limited terms."},{"startTime":3008.385,"endTime":3013.288,"body":"So remember marks on the Paris Commune, you know, these very short terms because again,"},{"startTime":3013.288,"endTime":3016.885,"body":"it, it leads to more ruling and being ruled in turn."},{"startTime":3016.985,"endTime":3021.547,"body":"You know, it brings in fresh, fresh blood, it stops people from developing a kind"},{"startTime":3021.547,"endTime":3024.285,"body":"of mentality of being part of a political elite."},{"startTime":3024.545,"endTime":3026.845,"body":"So I think there are actually real trade-offs here."},{"startTime":3026.985,"endTime":3031.658,"body":"And again, I would say I think the, the important point is we should identify"},{"startTime":3031.658,"endTime":3035.085,"body":"the values that we think that different institutional arrangements can achieve."},{"startTime":3035.145,"endTime":3039.264,"body":"And then again, we should experiment with them, you know, but I don't think, again,"},{"startTime":3039.264,"endTime":3042.285,"body":"there's any perfect, you know, perfectly democratic way to do it."},{"startTime":3042.285,"endTime":3047.049,"body":"If you do it one way, you'll satisfy some values, but maybe sacrifice others and"},{"startTime":3047.049,"endTime":3047.685,"body":"vice versa."},{"startTime":3048.225,"endTime":3052.341,"body":"So we should just be more aware, perhaps of the values that are always at"},{"startTime":3052.341,"endTime":3055.085,"body":"stake when we set up institutions and make those choices."},{"startTime":3055.785,"endTime":3059.741,"body":"Of course, we've been experimenting with having prime ministers for just four weeks or so,"},{"startTime":3059.741,"endTime":3060.005,"body":"\u003claugh\u003e."},{"startTime":3062.305,"endTime":3063.805,"body":"So question at the front here."},{"startTime":3063.865,"endTime":3064.485,"body":"Yes, Peter,"},{"startTime":3066.575,"endTime":3067.045,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3067.745,"endTime":3068.805,"body":"Um, thank you so much Melissa."},{"startTime":3069.025,"endTime":3072.975,"body":"Um, I'd like to ask you a bit more about this power of decision, um,"},{"startTime":3072.975,"endTime":3073.765,"body":"in a jury."},{"startTime":3074.385,"endTime":3078.972,"body":"The assumption is that if you get the, if the jury selection is fair, it's"},{"startTime":3078.972,"endTime":3083.56,"body":"not biased, say towards race or gender or something, that, that people would be kind"},{"startTime":3083.56,"endTime":3088.148,"body":"of interchangeable and that in principle, any reasonable jury would arrive at the same decision,"},{"startTime":3088.148,"endTime":3092.125,"body":"partly because the terms of the decision are set in advance by law."},{"startTime":3092.985,"endTime":3096.981,"body":"And in the case of democracy, though, you mentioned that case where the, you know,"},{"startTime":3096.981,"endTime":3100.978,"body":"the Athenians decide literally one thing one day and then reverse the decision the next"},{"startTime":3100.978,"endTime":3101.245,"body":"day."},{"startTime":3101.465,"endTime":3105.852,"body":"Um, and, and what is it that holds the decision, you know, that binds it"},{"startTime":3105.852,"endTime":3110.24,"body":"in some way, I suppose, what is it, you know, how can we be confident"},{"startTime":3110.24,"endTime":3114.627,"body":"that when you choose people by lot say, that will arrive broadly at the same"},{"startTime":3114.627,"endTime":3119.015,"body":"kinds of decisions that someone isn't, you know, put in for their year and, and"},{"startTime":3119.015,"endTime":3122.525,"body":"suddenly does everything upside down, you know, compared to the previous year."},{"startTime":3122.835,"endTime":3125.843,"body":"What is it that gives it a certain kind of stability if it isn't in"},{"startTime":3125.843,"endTime":3126.245,"body":"the end?"},{"startTime":3127.115,"endTime":3131.81,"body":"Something like the class purpose of the poor, in fact that the whole thing really"},{"startTime":3131.81,"endTime":3136.505,"body":"makes sense as a way of empowering the poor because the poor have a kind"},{"startTime":3136.505,"endTime":3137.445,"body":"of convergent interest."},{"startTime":3137.445,"endTime":3141.445,"body":"You know, that might have been why someone like CLR James was invested in it."},{"startTime":3141.835,"endTime":3143.125,"body":"Yeah, thank you very much."},{"startTime":3143.195,"endTime":3144.685,"body":"It's a, it's an excellent question."},{"startTime":3145.165,"endTime":3150.143,"body":"I think for the Athenians, I think something like that is probably the right answer,"},{"startTime":3150.143,"endTime":3155.121,"body":"that they're assuming that, you know, there's a general sort of set of interests and"},{"startTime":3155.121,"endTime":3160.099,"body":"preferences that people who share a certain class position, and I've been emphasizing these, this"},{"startTime":3160.099,"endTime":3165.077,"body":"class difference between the poor and the rich throughout these lectures because it's so salient"},{"startTime":3165.077,"endTime":3166.405,"body":"in the Greek texts."},{"startTime":3166.985,"endTime":3172.301,"body":"Um, I think that they do think that there are kind of generally common interests"},{"startTime":3172.301,"endTime":3177.617,"body":"that are likely to be shared, but, and I am gonna talk about this a"},{"startTime":3177.617,"endTime":3182.933,"body":"bit more next time, again, Josiah Ober has emphasized also though that by serving in"},{"startTime":3182.933,"endTime":3188.249,"body":"these offices, um, or on a jury chosen by lot people gained experience, um, even"},{"startTime":3188.249,"endTime":3191.085,"body":"through the process of being in those roles."},{"startTime":3191.185,"endTime":3195.245,"body":"And again, that might help address the previous question because, you know, it's not that"},{"startTime":3195.245,"endTime":3199.305,"body":"you only have the experience and knowledge that you bring into the position, you also"},{"startTime":3199.305,"endTime":3203.365,"body":"have the experience and knowledge that you gain by being on the, in the position."},{"startTime":3203.945,"endTime":3208.445,"body":"And again, they often would have boards that had representatives of members of the different"},{"startTime":3208.445,"endTime":3212.945,"body":"tribes, and so therefore you would be with people that you hadn't otherwise interacted with,"},{"startTime":3212.945,"endTime":3217.445,"body":"you would be able to kind of gain knowledge from people who were from different"},{"startTime":3217.445,"endTime":3219.245,"body":"parts of the policy, from yourself."},{"startTime":3219.585,"endTime":3224.445,"body":"So there, so there were sort of some mechanisms that were built in that we're"},{"startTime":3224.445,"endTime":3227.685,"body":"trying to, you know, help people to form better decisions."},{"startTime":3227.745,"endTime":3230.285,"body":"But that's again, something I really wanna look at next time."},{"startTime":3230.315,"endTime":3235.992,"body":"It's a huge topic, whether ancient democracy fostered knowledge or ignorance and, you know, how"},{"startTime":3235.992,"endTime":3237.885,"body":"could it do that better?"},{"startTime":3238.025,"endTime":3241.485,"body":"So my lecture next time will be on expertise."},{"startTime":3241.915,"endTime":3246.251,"body":"Well look at Socrates and Aristotle, but I'm also going to talk about this question"},{"startTime":3246.251,"endTime":3248.565,"body":"of the relationship of knowledge, um, and democracy."},{"startTime":3248.985,"endTime":3249.205,"body":"And"},{"startTime":3249.205,"endTime":3254.119,"body":"Just take one more question from online if I may, because it, I think it"},{"startTime":3254.119,"endTime":3256.085,"body":"addresses something about scale and complexity."},{"startTime":3256.395,"endTime":3256.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3256.785,"endTime":3261.525,"body":"Um, I mean Athens for all its relative size was in fact quite small."},{"startTime":3261.835,"endTime":3262.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3262.545,"endTime":3270.085,"body":"So, um, are the roots of democracy and the aims of globalism fundamentally Iraq inable."},{"startTime":3270.385,"endTime":3274.27,"body":"And I think you could argue instead of using the term globalism, you could say"},{"startTime":3274.27,"endTime":3275.565,"body":"the complexity of modern life."},{"startTime":3275.915,"endTime":3280.049,"body":"It's just too much going on for people to be able to be on top"},{"startTime":3280.049,"endTime":3280.325,"body":"of."},{"startTime":3281.195,"endTime":3281.485,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3281.505,"endTime":3284.045,"body":"So this is, this is an incredibly challenging question."},{"startTime":3284.065,"endTime":3287.725,"body":"And again, I think it's not just a question for ancient democracy, as it were."},{"startTime":3287.845,"endTime":3290.725,"body":"I think it's a real question for modern democracy."},{"startTime":3291.465,"endTime":3296.535,"body":"Um, I think the way that we might try to think about that again, is"},{"startTime":3296.535,"endTime":3301.605,"body":"to think about sort of layers, federations, you know, multiple different kind of overlapping systems."},{"startTime":3302.385,"endTime":3307.83,"body":"So, you know, you can have local institutions, you can have regional institutions, you can"},{"startTime":3307.83,"endTime":3313.275,"body":"have national institutions, you can have international institutions Actually in the Hellenistic period of, of,"},{"startTime":3313.275,"endTime":3314.365,"body":"um, Greek history."},{"startTime":3314.425,"endTime":3319.576,"body":"So just after the classical period, um, the Greeks really developed a number of federations"},{"startTime":3319.576,"endTime":3324.728,"body":"that were actually then an inspiration to the American founders, for example, when they were"},{"startTime":3324.728,"endTime":3329.88,"body":"thinking about the idea of how do you have a federation or, or a confederation"},{"startTime":3329.88,"endTime":3332.285,"body":"as they initially had in the United."},{"startTime":3332.585,"endTime":3338.119,"body":"And, you know, before we had the American constitution, we had the Articles of Confederation"},{"startTime":3338.119,"endTime":3343.653,"body":"and they were actually explicitly inspired by these ancient Greek models to say maybe these"},{"startTime":3343.653,"endTime":3346.605,"body":"are ways that independent societies can join together."},{"startTime":3347.345,"endTime":3353.161,"body":"So, you know, I think that, um, we can, you know, we need to look"},{"startTime":3353.161,"endTime":3358.977,"body":"at layering interaction, you know, multiplicity, sort of redundancy even of different kinds of democratic"},{"startTime":3358.977,"endTime":3359.365,"body":"systems."},{"startTime":3359.905,"endTime":3364.052,"body":"The late David held a political theorist at the Open University, had a book on"},{"startTime":3364.052,"endTime":3368.2,"body":"models of democracy that was very much talking about, you know, how can we kind"},{"startTime":3368.2,"endTime":3370.965,"body":"of have different kinds of democracy at these different levels."},{"startTime":3371.385,"endTime":3376.513,"body":"So I think we shouldn't give up on that aspiration, but again, we need to"},{"startTime":3376.513,"endTime":3378.565,"body":"kind of further our institutional experimentation."},{"startTime":3379.595,"endTime":3380.725,"body":"What I was gonna ask is"},{"startTime":3380.775,"endTime":3382.725,"body":"About, uh, slavery slaves."},{"startTime":3383.025,"endTime":3387.965,"body":"Is it the modern, I would say the modern version of democracy leads to anti-slavery?"},{"startTime":3387.965,"endTime":3389.485,"body":"At least that's for the myth we tell ourselves."},{"startTime":3390.105,"endTime":3394.285,"body":"Um, would you say that the ancient Athens would've got there eventually?"},{"startTime":3395.315,"endTime":3397.245,"body":"Yeah, that's an, that's an important question."},{"startTime":3397.505,"endTime":3403.605,"body":"And you know, I am emphasize that constant certainly thinks that slavery is what underwrote"},{"startTime":3403.605,"endTime":3406.045,"body":"this ancient model of participatory politics."},{"startTime":3406.045,"endTime":3410.426,"body":"And that's part of his reason for thinking that it can't exist in modernity because,"},{"startTime":3410.426,"endTime":3414.807,"body":"you know, we don't have these other people who are being forced and exploited and"},{"startTime":3414.807,"endTime":3418.605,"body":"dominated to do the, the sort of work, um, for the few elite."},{"startTime":3419.225,"endTime":3423.567,"body":"Um, and in that context, even the poor Athenians were elite compared to the people"},{"startTime":3423.567,"endTime":3424.725,"body":"whom they were enslaving."},{"startTime":3425.105,"endTime":3426.205,"body":"So I think that's right."},{"startTime":3426.785,"endTime":3432.52,"body":"Um, you know, there are a few, um, statements against slavery that, that survive from"},{"startTime":3432.52,"endTime":3433.285,"body":"ancient Greece."},{"startTime":3433.335,"endTime":3438.103,"body":"There are, there's an anonymous, um, kind of comment that we find in the side"},{"startTime":3438.103,"endTime":3440.965,"body":"of a, of a manuscript of, of a papyrus."},{"startTime":3441.105,"endTime":3447.052,"body":"Um, there, there's, there are, there are claims that are made that say slavery is"},{"startTime":3447.052,"endTime":3447.845,"body":"not natural."},{"startTime":3448.355,"endTime":3450.325,"body":"It's just a human institution."},{"startTime":3450.985,"endTime":3455.497,"body":"Um, now, you know, we might then draw the conclusion, well, if it's a human"},{"startTime":3455.497,"endTime":3458.205,"body":"institution, it can be changed, it can be abolished."},{"startTime":3459.075,"endTime":3464.965,"body":"There's not much sign that ancient Greek, uh, thinkers or actors drew that conclusion."},{"startTime":3465.145,"endTime":3469.645,"body":"But by saying it's not natural, you know, at least it was sort of, it"},{"startTime":3469.645,"endTime":3471.445,"body":"opened the door to that thought."},{"startTime":3471.625,"endTime":3474.685,"body":"Um, you know, would they have gotten there eventually?"},{"startTime":3475.005,"endTime":3475.765,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"startTime":3476.045,"endTime":3479.5,"body":"I mean, it's a, it's a stain on their record certainly, you know, as, as,"},{"startTime":3479.5,"endTime":3482.725,"body":"as we, I think are right to see it, um, um, in that way."},{"startTime":3483.225,"endTime":3488.559,"body":"Um, you know, there's a very complicated history of, of sort of, um, subsequent ideas"},{"startTime":3488.559,"endTime":3491.405,"body":"of slavery and how they're challenged and reinforced."},{"startTime":3491.585,"endTime":3496.337,"body":"Um, you know, and it's a very long and important history, um, that, that we"},{"startTime":3496.337,"endTime":3497.605,"body":"need to, to remember."},{"startTime":3497.775,"endTime":3498.245,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":3498.615,"endTime":3498.965,"body":"Thank"},{"startTime":3501.465,"endTime":3501.685,"body":"You."}]}