{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.585,"endTime":13.51,"body":"So book seven of Plato's Republic opens with an unforgettable image, the image of the"},{"startTime":13.51,"endTime":21.436,"body":"cave and Plato's leading character Socrates begins by inviting his interlocutors to, to imagine the"},{"startTime":21.436,"endTime":21.965,"body":"situation."},{"startTime":22.545,"endTime":26.94,"body":"So I'm going to ask you to begin by imagining before I show you some"},{"startTime":26.94,"endTime":28.405,"body":"modern renderings of the image."},{"startTime":29.625,"endTime":37.156,"body":"So imagine Socrates says, human beings living in an underground cave-like dwelling with an entrance"},{"startTime":37.156,"endTime":39.165,"body":"a long way up."},{"startTime":39.675,"endTime":43.525,"body":"They've been there since childhood with their necks and legs."},{"startTime":43.685,"endTime":50.095,"body":"Fettered able to see only in front of them because their bonds prevent them from"},{"startTime":50.095,"endTime":51.805,"body":"turning their heads around."},{"startTime":52.985,"endTime":56.645,"body":"So here is a modern portrayal of the story."},{"startTime":57.665,"endTime":62.765,"body":"So as you can see, the prisoners are trapped in a world of artificial light."},{"startTime":63.345,"endTime":68.013,"body":"And in fact, all they can see are the shadows that are cast on the"},{"startTime":68.013,"endTime":68.325,"body":"wall."},{"startTime":68.465,"endTime":73.381,"body":"So you can see the shadow of the horse there, which is cast by the"},{"startTime":73.381,"endTime":74.365,"body":"artificial fire light."},{"startTime":74.745,"endTime":79.73,"body":"So in this rendering, you can see that the light of the sun never actually"},{"startTime":79.73,"endTime":81.725,"body":"reaches where the prisoners are trapped."},{"startTime":82.945,"endTime":89.293,"body":"And what this means is that what they see are these shadows cast by the"},{"startTime":89.293,"endTime":93.525,"body":"artifacts that puppeteer like manipulators carry around behind their backs."},{"startTime":93.545,"endTime":98.525,"body":"So you can see the puppeteer like manipulators there in the blue garments."},{"startTime":100.265,"endTime":106.368,"body":"And so in this world says Socrates, the prisoners would in every way believe that"},{"startTime":106.368,"endTime":110.845,"body":"the truth is nothing other than the shadows of those artifacts."},{"startTime":111.585,"endTime":117.325,"body":"And the, the manipulators and the artifacts are the images produced by saws."},{"startTime":117.785,"endTime":123.928,"body":"So they're the images that tell you what to aspire to, what, what in what"},{"startTime":123.928,"endTime":127.205,"body":"ways you can earn honors, recognitions, and rewards."},{"startTime":127.745,"endTime":132.815,"body":"And those are all going to go to the people who are best at spotting"},{"startTime":132.815,"endTime":137.886,"body":"shadows, not to anyone who might have been enabled to break their bonds and start"},{"startTime":137.886,"endTime":141.605,"body":"to seal, see what's real in the light of the sun."},{"startTime":143.455,"endTime":145.315,"body":"So here is another image of the cave."},{"startTime":145.315,"endTime":148.515,"body":"This is a, um, 16th century image."},{"startTime":149.015,"endTime":154.451,"body":"Um, and you can see on the right are the prisoners on the top of"},{"startTime":154.451,"endTime":158.075,"body":"the wall are the, um, uh, manipulators and the artifacts."},{"startTime":158.455,"endTime":162.102,"body":"And then out to the left are the people who are starting to be able"},{"startTime":162.102,"endTime":163.075,"body":"to escape the cave."},{"startTime":163.095,"endTime":167.739,"body":"And all the way on the left, you can see the people who've managed to"},{"startTime":167.739,"endTime":172.075,"body":"get out and they're strolling around doing philosophy in the light of the sun."},{"startTime":173.855,"endTime":180.217,"body":"Now, this image has often been read as a parable about the inevitable woes of"},{"startTime":180.217,"endTime":186.579,"body":"mortal life, as if Plato were portraying human beings trapped in a veil of tears"},{"startTime":186.579,"endTime":191.245,"body":"whilst on earth to be freed only in a transcendental afterlife."},{"startTime":192.545,"endTime":199.94,"body":"But in fact, Plato's Socrates introduces the whole story as what he calls a comparison"},{"startTime":199.94,"endTime":203.885,"body":"to the effect of education on our nature."},{"startTime":205.105,"endTime":212.68,"body":"So Plato's Cave is not the inevitable mortal abode, rather it's the city in the"},{"startTime":212.68,"endTime":215.205,"body":"sense of the political community."},{"startTime":216.235,"endTime":223.348,"body":"It's any polity in which we grow up and are educated, which fundamentally shapes our"},{"startTime":223.348,"endTime":225.245,"body":"appetites and our aspirations."},{"startTime":225.395,"endTime":230.345,"body":"It's the polity that shows us those artifacts that tell us what we should desire,"},{"startTime":230.345,"endTime":232.325,"body":"what we should try to do."},{"startTime":233.545,"endTime":235.445,"body":"And so it's every polity."},{"startTime":235.505,"endTime":241.285,"body":"The cave is every polity that's organized around fundamentally flawed assumptions."},{"startTime":242.025,"endTime":247.405,"body":"So the misinformation that's portrayed there is not occasional malpractice."},{"startTime":248.035,"endTime":250.045,"body":"It's pervasive delusion."},{"startTime":250.625,"endTime":255.245,"body":"It shapes everything that citizens are brought up to believe and desire."},{"startTime":257.915,"endTime":261.975,"body":"So what cave might we be trapped in today?"},{"startTime":264.125,"endTime":270.448,"body":"Well, for starters, we might ask the same question about Plato and his contemporaries in"},{"startTime":270.448,"endTime":276.771,"body":"terms of what assumptions they took for granted that might today look to us like"},{"startTime":276.771,"endTime":277.615,"body":"deep mistakes."},{"startTime":278.915,"endTime":286.091,"body":"Now in lecturing this year at Gresham on the theme, the political imagination, ancient Greek"},{"startTime":286.091,"endTime":293.267,"body":"ideas I've so far said relatively little about the stark fact that ancient Greek polities"},{"startTime":293.267,"endTime":297.095,"body":"were what historian Moses Finley called slave societies."},{"startTime":297.905,"endTime":305.646,"body":"Their economic development, political participation and cultural achievements were all built on the backs of"},{"startTime":305.646,"endTime":309.775,"body":"enslaved people, many of them captured in war."},{"startTime":310.715,"endTime":313.335,"body":"And here we have an image of an enslaved boy."},{"startTime":313.365,"endTime":317.015,"body":"This is a vase from the fifth century, BCE."},{"startTime":317.115,"endTime":320.815,"body":"So about the time of, um, Plato's early adulthood."},{"startTime":323.395,"endTime":329.255,"body":"So the Greeks were trapped in a, in a cave that took slavery for granted."},{"startTime":330.395,"endTime":337.563,"body":"Now, slavery was a fate that everyone dearly wished to avoid for themselves as the"},{"startTime":337.563,"endTime":344.255,"body":"19th century escaped slave, the orator and statesman Frederick Douglass would later reaffirm powerfully."},{"startTime":345.115,"endTime":348.495,"body":"And here's who proclaimed in 1852."},{"startTime":348.905,"endTime":353.877,"body":"There is not a man beneath the canopy of heaven that does not know that"},{"startTime":353.877,"endTime":355.535,"body":"slavery is wrong for him."},{"startTime":357.075,"endTime":364.326,"body":"But as Bernard Williams argued in his book, shame and Necessity, the Greeks overwhelmingly saw"},{"startTime":364.326,"endTime":371.095,"body":"no alternative to relying upon slavery as a mode of organizing society in general."},{"startTime":371.635,"endTime":374.295,"body":"So this was the cave in which they were trapped."},{"startTime":375.235,"endTime":379.055,"body":"But you can see that that was not a natural or timeless fact."},{"startTime":379.485,"endTime":380.775,"body":"That was a social fact."},{"startTime":380.875,"endTime":385.415,"body":"It was a fact about the polity, the polities in which they lived."},{"startTime":385.915,"endTime":392.718,"body":"And it's a social fact that since has changed, we no longer think it's right"},{"startTime":392.718,"endTime":399.521,"body":"or reasonable for people to organize their appetites aspirations and assumptions around seeking to have"},{"startTime":399.521,"endTime":399.975,"body":"slaves."},{"startTime":400.835,"endTime":407.022,"body":"The honors recognitions and rewards that most societies offer today are no longer bestowed on"},{"startTime":407.022,"endTime":410.735,"body":"those who win wars to enslave the defeated survivors."},{"startTime":411.235,"endTime":416.649,"body":"But the opposite, we would give honors to those who fight against modern slavery, not"},{"startTime":416.649,"endTime":418.815,"body":"those who seek to impose it."},{"startTime":419.635,"endTime":424.153,"body":"So in that sense, we are no longer in the same cave as the ancient"},{"startTime":424.153,"endTime":424.455,"body":"Greeks."},{"startTime":425.115,"endTime":427.855,"body":"And here again is another, again, the same image."},{"startTime":428.115,"endTime":431.175,"body":"Um, another look at this image of the cave."},{"startTime":432.915,"endTime":437.223,"body":"Now at this point, you may again be wondering why am I talking about slavery"},{"startTime":437.223,"endTime":440.095,"body":"when this lecture was supposed to be about climate change?"},{"startTime":441.485,"endTime":449.339,"body":"Well consider this comparison advanced by several historians between the energy produced by enslaved humans"},{"startTime":449.339,"endTime":454.575,"body":"in human history and the energy produced by fossil fuels."},{"startTime":455.635,"endTime":462.947,"body":"So dependence on fossil fuels, like dependence on enslaved people, has in the words of"},{"startTime":462.947,"endTime":467.335,"body":"Jean Francois mou freed their owners from daily chores."},{"startTime":468.075,"endTime":474.562,"body":"And so it's provided them again in moose's words with the leisure to read and"},{"startTime":474.562,"endTime":478.455,"body":"write, perform arts, get informed and participate in politics."},{"startTime":480.065,"endTime":485.79,"body":"Other historians have developed the concept of energy slaves as a measure of the kind"},{"startTime":485.79,"endTime":491.135,"body":"of energy that machines most of them fueled by fossil fuels have provided us."},{"startTime":491.875,"endTime":499.175,"body":"So John McNeil estimated that in the 1990s, for example, each person alive on average,"},{"startTime":499.175,"endTime":506.475,"body":"of course there were great, there was great variation, as he said, deployed about 20"},{"startTime":506.475,"endTime":513.775,"body":"energy slaves, meaning 20 human equivalents working 24 hours a day, 365 days a year."},{"startTime":515.875,"endTime":521.892,"body":"Now, of course, the moral wrong of slavery is a categorical wrong of a unique"},{"startTime":521.892,"endTime":522.294,"body":"kind."},{"startTime":523.355,"endTime":528.833,"body":"And even we see here even machines don't want to be slaves, right as is"},{"startTime":528.833,"endTime":530.295,"body":"depicted in this image."},{"startTime":530.435,"endTime":533.295,"body":"So the comparison only goes so far."},{"startTime":534.635,"endTime":540.919,"body":"But while this comparison of fossil fuel emissions and the machines that they power to"},{"startTime":540.919,"endTime":547.203,"body":"human slavery may be a startling, even a shocking way to think about climate change,"},{"startTime":547.203,"endTime":553.487,"body":"I think that's the kind of shock that Plato's image of the cave was designed"},{"startTime":553.487,"endTime":554.325,"body":"to produce."},{"startTime":555.075,"endTime":560.985,"body":"Because again, the cave was asking us to consider that the bedrock assumptions on which"},{"startTime":560.985,"endTime":564.925,"body":"our society is founded may be rotten to the core."},{"startTime":565.865,"endTime":572.451,"body":"So it asks us to consider that the seeming value of economic growth that allows"},{"startTime":572.451,"endTime":575.965,"body":"net carbon emissions is actually a net harm."},{"startTime":576.275,"endTime":579.405,"body":"It's doing damage not social good."},{"startTime":580.225,"endTime":586.256,"body":"And I would remind us here of a message given, uh, recently on this stage"},{"startTime":586.256,"endTime":592.287,"body":"by Miles Allen, the Frank Jackson Foundation, professor of the environment here at Gresham, he"},{"startTime":592.287,"endTime":598.318,"body":"pointed out that from a climate change perspective, what we should most be concerned with"},{"startTime":598.318,"endTime":599.525,"body":"is net emissions."},{"startTime":599.665,"endTime":605.14,"body":"So the net carbon that's added to the atmosphere as opposed to that which might"},{"startTime":605.14,"endTime":606.965,"body":"be safely captured and stored."},{"startTime":607.225,"endTime":612.725,"body":"And so it's that net carbon emissions question, um, on which we want to focus."},{"startTime":613.945,"endTime":620.332,"body":"So from the standpoint of the cave denying the significance of these net emissions looks"},{"startTime":620.332,"endTime":624.165,"body":"like refusing to face what is true and valid."},{"startTime":628.015,"endTime":634.025,"body":"So one more image of the cave insofar as we are clinging then to the"},{"startTime":634.025,"endTime":639.635,"body":"comforts and familiarities of our current way of life with its fossil fuel infrastructure."},{"startTime":640.575,"endTime":645.675,"body":"Are we not trapping ourselves in a modern version of Plato's Cave?"},{"startTime":646.495,"endTime":652.575,"body":"All the ways in which we think to achieve advantage and preeminence to satisfy our"},{"startTime":652.575,"endTime":657.035,"body":"appetites and desires are like those artifact, those artifacts, they're artificial."},{"startTime":657.385,"endTime":663.252,"body":"They, they don't hold up well, they're mere shadows, um, compared to the light of"},{"startTime":663.252,"endTime":664.035,"body":"the sun."},{"startTime":667.015,"endTime":673.001,"body":"Now in Plato's story, the question of how easy it would be to escape the"},{"startTime":673.001,"endTime":676.195,"body":"cave is actually presented in a double-edged way."},{"startTime":676.455,"endTime":678.555,"body":"And this image helps us to see it."},{"startTime":679.615,"endTime":686.915,"body":"So in one way, the cave is depicted as almost hermetically sealed."},{"startTime":687.735,"endTime":691.355,"body":"No sunlight at all gets into where the prisoners are held."},{"startTime":691.905,"endTime":697.395,"body":"It's only by traveling arduously upward that anyone can start to see the light."},{"startTime":699.015,"endTime":705.087,"body":"But in another way, in another moment when he reflects on the moral of the"},{"startTime":705.087,"endTime":710.755,"body":"story, Plato's character insists that the power to learn is present in everyone's soul."},{"startTime":711.495,"endTime":716.125,"body":"And so the role of education is to redirect our gaze upward to the truth."},{"startTime":716.625,"endTime":720.808,"body":"And you can see that here it looks like you could just turn around and"},{"startTime":720.808,"endTime":721.645,"body":"start traveling upward."},{"startTime":722.865,"endTime":727.627,"body":"So in this way, it seems as if maybe the cave actually is more open"},{"startTime":727.627,"endTime":730.485,"body":"to light than it might appear in this way."},{"startTime":730.545,"endTime":736.328,"body":"The moral would be akin to the film that some of you may remember don't"},{"startTime":736.328,"endTime":737.485,"body":"look up, right?"},{"startTime":737.505,"endTime":743.741,"body":"So in that film, an asteroid is hurtling towards the earth and that sparks a"},{"startTime":743.741,"endTime":745.405,"body":"movement of political denial."},{"startTime":745.955,"endTime":751.245,"body":"This isn't an image from the film, but it captures that movement of denial, right?"},{"startTime":751.385,"endTime":757.925,"body":"One person trying to stop the other from seeing what's actually looming in the sky."},{"startTime":759.585,"endTime":764.738,"body":"But the message of the film is that it's still in our power to kind"},{"startTime":764.738,"endTime":769.891,"body":"of tear those hands away and look up, even though just as in Plato's story,"},{"startTime":769.891,"endTime":775.045,"body":"there are these social and political pressures conspiring to prevent many people from doing so."},{"startTime":778.105,"endTime":782.176,"body":"So if we think about those two sides of the cave story, to what extent"},{"startTime":782.176,"endTime":783.805,"body":"are we sort of desperately trapped?"},{"startTime":783.945,"endTime":789.205,"body":"And to what extent is it in our power to start to move outside it?"},{"startTime":790.425,"endTime":796.898,"body":"We can see that the paradox of our situation today is that actually much scientific"},{"startTime":796.898,"endTime":803.371,"body":"light about the true nature of reality is actually getting in to our current society,"},{"startTime":803.371,"endTime":809.845,"body":"and yet people are still somehow paralyzed or resistant to action in response to it."},{"startTime":811.665,"endTime":817.944,"body":"So when I first wrote about climate change in the cave in a book called"},{"startTime":817.944,"endTime":823.805,"body":"Eco Republic, I was focused on the cave partly as sheer climate change denial."},{"startTime":825.065,"endTime":830.315,"body":"But of course now I think we're in this even stranger situation where many people"},{"startTime":830.315,"endTime":832.765,"body":"do acknowledge the need for urgent action."},{"startTime":832.835,"endTime":840.385,"body":"They recognize the truth, but they're still strangely held back from the radical reconfiguration of"},{"startTime":840.385,"endTime":843.405,"body":"society that inadequate response would require."},{"startTime":845.385,"endTime":850.302,"body":"So this is why in this lecture, I want to invite you to consider the"},{"startTime":850.302,"endTime":852.925,"body":"cave image from the perspective of three questions."},{"startTime":853.545,"endTime":856.205,"body":"And this is my agenda now for the rest of the lecture."},{"startTime":857.625,"endTime":862.228,"body":"So first of all, we're going to look at the what, what is it that"},{"startTime":862.228,"endTime":865.605,"body":"we might come to see by leaving the climate change cave?"},{"startTime":865.605,"endTime":868.965,"body":"And we'll look at Plato's account of that as we go."},{"startTime":870.475,"endTime":875.771,"body":"Then we'll move on to the how, how might people be persuaded to leave the"},{"startTime":875.771,"endTime":876.125,"body":"cave?"},{"startTime":877.305,"endTime":880.645,"body":"And and then thirdly, and finally we'll look at the question."},{"startTime":881.105,"endTime":886.365,"body":"If not, what if some people refuse to leave in that case?"},{"startTime":887.065,"endTime":893.525,"body":"Is it justified to tell them what Plato elsewhere in the republic called noble lies?"},{"startTime":893.905,"endTime":898.526,"body":"Should we lie to them to either force them out of the cave or at"},{"startTime":898.526,"endTime":903.148,"body":"least enable us to get other people out even in the face of continued denial"},{"startTime":903.148,"endTime":903.765,"body":"by some?"},{"startTime":904.225,"endTime":909.156,"body":"So these are the three cave questions, um, that I want to ask about climate"},{"startTime":909.156,"endTime":909.485,"body":"change."},{"startTime":911.715,"endTime":917.215,"body":"So first of all, the what, what is the basis for ethics outside the cave?"},{"startTime":918.755,"endTime":924.992,"body":"So in Plato's Republic, we're told that the form of the good is the most"},{"startTime":924.992,"endTime":930.815,"body":"important thing to learn about because that's what makes everything become useful and beneficial."},{"startTime":932.835,"endTime":937.961,"body":"And what's striking about this is that Plato observes that every soul pursues the good"},{"startTime":937.961,"endTime":940.695,"body":"and does whatever it does for its sake."},{"startTime":941.355,"endTime":946.671,"body":"But that's true even when we make a mistake, even when we're wrong about what"},{"startTime":946.671,"endTime":947.735,"body":"is actually good."},{"startTime":948.475,"endTime":951.535,"body":"And that's because we're still seeking what's really good."},{"startTime":952.475,"endTime":956.735,"body":"So to use a platonic example, we can think about medicine, right?"},{"startTime":956.735,"endTime":961.272,"body":"If, if I'm going to take medicine, I want it to be good medicine, not"},{"startTime":961.272,"endTime":961.575,"body":"bad."},{"startTime":962.155,"endTime":967.838,"body":"If I learn that I've been taking fake or faulty medicine, I'm going to feel"},{"startTime":967.838,"endTime":968.975,"body":"cheated or alarmed."},{"startTime":969.515,"endTime":974.215,"body":"So good medicine produces real benefit, which bad medicine cannot."},{"startTime":975.955,"endTime":982.387,"body":"And it's interesting that in the Republic Plato draws a contrast between for example, what's"},{"startTime":982.387,"endTime":988.819,"body":"beautiful or even just he says, many people actually are satisfied to appear just to"},{"startTime":988.819,"endTime":990.535,"body":"present a beautiful facade."},{"startTime":990.915,"endTime":994.965,"body":"As long as we can sort of get away with it, we're happy just to"},{"startTime":994.965,"endTime":995.775,"body":"have the facade."},{"startTime":995.835,"endTime":1000.551,"body":"In fact, it might be better off if we can appear just if actually sort"},{"startTime":1000.551,"endTime":1001.495,"body":"of secretly cheat."},{"startTime":1001.515,"endTime":1003.855,"body":"We might think we'll do better in that case."},{"startTime":1005.035,"endTime":1009.575,"body":"But by contrast, goodness is something that we don't want to avoid in that way."},{"startTime":1010.555,"endTime":1015.215,"body":"We don't want, we don't want bad medicine, bad food or bad friends."},{"startTime":1015.515,"endTime":1018.135,"body":"We instinctively want what's truly good."},{"startTime":1021.055,"endTime":1025.605,"body":"Now Plato then further develops this idea in terms of the idea of the form"},{"startTime":1025.605,"endTime":1026.515,"body":"of the good."},{"startTime":1026.973,"endTime":1031.258,"body":"And here I want to follow the work of the late philosopher, um, from the"},{"startTime":1031.258,"endTime":1032.115,"body":"University of St."},{"startTime":1032.194,"endTime":1038.3,"body":"Andrew's, Sarah Brody, who wrote an important work studying Plato's idea of the form of"},{"startTime":1038.3,"endTime":1039.115,"body":"the good."},{"startTime":1040.214,"endTime":1046.399,"body":"And what she wanted to emphasize is that the form of the good, which again"},{"startTime":1046.399,"endTime":1052.585,"body":"might sound like esoteric platonic metaphysics might sound like something we could never possibly understand"},{"startTime":1052.585,"endTime":1054.235,"body":"or come to know."},{"startTime":1055.465,"endTime":1060.915,"body":"What Brody suggested is really what it is, is just interrogative mode."},{"startTime":1061.585,"endTime":1066.475,"body":"Plato's form of the good is a way of asking whether anything is good."},{"startTime":1066.785,"endTime":1071.365,"body":"It's really just trying to always get us to ask that simple question."},{"startTime":1073.305,"endTime":1079.71,"body":"So let's try out Brody's interrogative approach to goodness and apply it to economic growth"},{"startTime":1079.71,"endTime":1081.845,"body":"in relation to climate change."},{"startTime":1083.225,"endTime":1089.445,"body":"So economic growth has been a presupposition of politics in our modern cave, right?"},{"startTime":1089.785,"endTime":1096.167,"body":"The assumption is that economic growth is a good thing, but if we interrogate that"},{"startTime":1096.167,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"assumption, what we'll see is that we need to make it compatible with sustainability, with"},{"startTime":1102.55,"endTime":1106.805,"body":"getting ourselves on a quick enough path to net zero."},{"startTime":1108.145,"endTime":1113.28,"body":"So if we measure growth in the wrong way, actually it may not be what's"},{"startTime":1113.28,"endTime":1113.965,"body":"truly good."},{"startTime":1114.745,"endTime":1122.118,"body":"So as many economists have pointed out, for example, the measure of gross domestic product"},{"startTime":1122.118,"endTime":1127.525,"body":"per capita GDP, we'll value the product of carbon polluting industries."},{"startTime":1128.225,"endTime":1133.787,"body":"So GDP is not an adequate measure of what's truly good because it's not going"},{"startTime":1133.787,"endTime":1137.125,"body":"to capture the harm that carbon pollution can do."},{"startTime":1139.065,"endTime":1144.536,"body":"So Plato gives us this beautiful image that we should actually instead think of growth"},{"startTime":1144.536,"endTime":1146.725,"body":"on the model of plants, right?"},{"startTime":1146.745,"endTime":1151.128,"body":"And this is where he connects the image of the good again, to the image"},{"startTime":1151.128,"endTime":1152.005,"body":"of the sun."},{"startTime":1152.945,"endTime":1156.805,"body":"Plants ultimately are not going to grow down there in the cave."},{"startTime":1156.905,"endTime":1161.845,"body":"If they're only exposed to firelight, they'll eventually shrivel and die."},{"startTime":1162.755,"endTime":1167.685,"body":"They can only grow if they're exposed to the illumination of pure sunlight."},{"startTime":1168.425,"endTime":1173.525,"body":"And this was Plato's use of the metaphor to say, we have to look for"},{"startTime":1173.525,"endTime":1178.285,"body":"what's truly good, not what our diluted economic standards have told us is good."},{"startTime":1179.465,"endTime":1186.645,"body":"So growth has to be meaningful, not an anarchic cancerous sprawl."},{"startTime":1187.185,"endTime":1193.26,"body":"And in another platonic dialogue, the gorges, another character contends wrongly that growth is an"},{"startTime":1193.26,"endTime":1199.335,"body":"unbounded process of consumption, as if the way to be happy is just to stuff"},{"startTime":1199.335,"endTime":1201.765,"body":"in as much as you can."},{"startTime":1202.425,"endTime":1205.445,"body":"And we all know that that won't lead to true health."},{"startTime":1207.065,"endTime":1213.454,"body":"So the what here is giving us this image that what we need is a"},{"startTime":1213.454,"endTime":1219.843,"body":"true image of what growth is, not a shadow, um, but rather an understanding of"},{"startTime":1219.843,"endTime":1226.233,"body":"growth that's limited and balanced in light of the, the, the reality of, um, what"},{"startTime":1226.233,"endTime":1227.085,"body":"sustainability requires."},{"startTime":1229.625,"endTime":1232.325,"body":"So that brings us to the second question, the how."},{"startTime":1233.665,"endTime":1238.993,"body":"So how do we persuade people to let go of the seeming certainties of the"},{"startTime":1238.993,"endTime":1241.125,"body":"cave that they're still clinging to?"},{"startTime":1242.545,"endTime":1246.885,"body":"And I think we can actually turn that question around and turn it on ourselves."},{"startTime":1247.425,"endTime":1252.233,"body":"And I include myself very much in this because many of us like to think"},{"startTime":1252.233,"endTime":1257.042,"body":"that we are woke, we are liberated, we are out of the cave of climate"},{"startTime":1257.042,"endTime":1258.325,"body":"denial, we get it."},{"startTime":1259.225,"endTime":1265.569,"body":"But are we really acting in accord with that knowledge or are we sort of"},{"startTime":1265.569,"endTime":1270.645,"body":"half knowing it but really still acting according to those shadowed paradigms?"},{"startTime":1272.065,"endTime":1276.085,"body":"And here I have to share a recent experience that I had myself."},{"startTime":1276.705,"endTime":1282.222,"body":"So I was thinking about this lecture and I was looking things up on in"},{"startTime":1282.222,"endTime":1287.005,"body":"Google Scholar and I came upon this statement to know is to act."},{"startTime":1287.385,"endTime":1288.885,"body":"To act is to know."},{"startTime":1289.025,"endTime":1294.037,"body":"And this was in an article about climate change, um, by a distinguished climate scientist,"},{"startTime":1294.037,"endTime":1297.045,"body":"someone whose work I'd drawn on in the past."},{"startTime":1298.225,"endTime":1301.405,"body":"And that statement struck me as an important mantra."},{"startTime":1301.685,"endTime":1306.623,"body":"I think this is actually a deeply platonic thought because if we don't act on"},{"startTime":1306.623,"endTime":1310.245,"body":"our purported knowledge, in what sense do we really know it?"},{"startTime":1311.105,"endTime":1314.885,"body":"And if we do really truly know, why wouldn't we act?"},{"startTime":1315.505,"endTime":1318.875,"body":"So I was very excited when I came upon this statement and I clicked on"},{"startTime":1318.875,"endTime":1319.325,"body":"this article."},{"startTime":1319.485,"endTime":1325.02,"body":"I thought, yes, this is going to help me to build this lecture only to"},{"startTime":1325.02,"endTime":1330.555,"body":"discover that actually this sentence was put forward by Mike CU in this article as"},{"startTime":1330.555,"endTime":1334.245,"body":"a summary of my own book, which he had read."},{"startTime":1334.865,"endTime":1338.773,"body":"So in one way, this was very exciting to me, but in another way it"},{"startTime":1338.773,"endTime":1342.682,"body":"kind of showed me I didn't even really fully understand what I myself had been"},{"startTime":1342.682,"endTime":1343.725,"body":"arguing in this book."},{"startTime":1343.845,"endTime":1345.685,"body":"I hadn't seen that full argument."},{"startTime":1345.885,"endTime":1350.874,"body":"I wasn't fully out of the cave in my own understanding of the, of of"},{"startTime":1350.874,"endTime":1352.205,"body":"what I actually thought."},{"startTime":1353.785,"endTime":1359.935,"body":"Now, in fact, my cube, who you see here, um, was understanding the, what I"},{"startTime":1359.935,"endTime":1364.445,"body":"was trying to say even more deeply than I had done."},{"startTime":1364.635,"endTime":1370.222,"body":"Because what he was pointing out, and again this was an article on climate change,"},{"startTime":1370.222,"endTime":1375.81,"body":"was that when we don't act on climate change, it's not because we're lacking some"},{"startTime":1375.81,"endTime":1378.045,"body":"one key piece of factual information."},{"startTime":1378.585,"endTime":1382.342,"body":"So as soon as we would get that one bulletin on the BBC, we would"},{"startTime":1382.342,"endTime":1383.845,"body":"leap out of the cave, right?"},{"startTime":1383.865,"endTime":1388.005,"body":"That's not the right way to think about knowledge and climate change."},{"startTime":1388.985,"endTime":1394.445,"body":"Rather what Hume was arguing is that gaps in knowledge are more like thin ice."},{"startTime":1394.715,"endTime":1401.325,"body":"It's more like places of brittleness or weakness which require knowledge to be thickened."},{"startTime":1401.945,"endTime":1408.386,"body":"And so he also relied on another philosopher who argued that knowledge thickens and extends"},{"startTime":1408.386,"endTime":1409.245,"body":"our understanding."},{"startTime":1410.345,"endTime":1414.971,"body":"So to get out of the cave, it's not enough to just drop in some"},{"startTime":1414.971,"endTime":1416.205,"body":"more pieces of knowledge."},{"startTime":1416.315,"endTime":1419.565,"body":"What we need to do is actually to deepen understanding."},{"startTime":1420.065,"endTime":1425.455,"body":"That's the only way that we'll actually be motivated to turn around, to move out,"},{"startTime":1425.455,"endTime":1430.846,"body":"and ultimately to act, to have our understanding of the ethics and the science go"},{"startTime":1430.846,"endTime":1431.925,"body":"hand in hand."},{"startTime":1434.395,"endTime":1439.266,"body":"So this brings me actually to something that I haven't talked much about in these"},{"startTime":1439.266,"endTime":1441.215,"body":"lectures, which is in fact rhetoric."},{"startTime":1441.895,"endTime":1446.095,"body":"I am as, uh, professor Linta mentioned the Gresham professor of rhetoric."},{"startTime":1446.715,"endTime":1451.737,"body":"And actually what I want to now argue is that rhetoric is part of the"},{"startTime":1451.737,"endTime":1456.76,"body":"solution to this question of how we can help ourselves and others to leave the"},{"startTime":1456.76,"endTime":1457.095,"body":"cave."},{"startTime":1457.965,"endTime":1465.738,"body":"When we use rhetoric correctly in scientific communication, it can help to reinforce and thicken"},{"startTime":1465.738,"endTime":1466.775,"body":"our understanding."},{"startTime":1467.115,"endTime":1474.38,"body":"And so our trust, and this is especially important because of the emotional and social"},{"startTime":1474.38,"endTime":1481.646,"body":"resistance that people often display to ideas and information that they think might threaten their"},{"startTime":1481.646,"endTime":1482.615,"body":"basic values."},{"startTime":1483.515,"endTime":1490.103,"body":"So I wanna now draw on modern psychology and ancient Greek texts to show how"},{"startTime":1490.103,"endTime":1495.375,"body":"serious this problem of resistance is and how rhetoric might help us."},{"startTime":1497.435,"endTime":1501.175,"body":"So let me start with what might seem like a trivial case."},{"startTime":1501.405,"endTime":1503.935,"body":"It's a game of American football."},{"startTime":1505.075,"endTime":1512.335,"body":"So the psychologist Dan Cahan has recalled a famous 1950s psychology experiment."},{"startTime":1512.795,"endTime":1518.929,"body":"And in his words, in this experiment, researchers showed students a film of an American"},{"startTime":1518.929,"endTime":1524.655,"body":"football game in which officials made a series of controversial decisions against one side."},{"startTime":1525.035,"endTime":1528.087,"body":"So on one side you have one school, on the other side you have the"},{"startTime":1528.087,"endTime":1528.495,"body":"other school."},{"startTime":1528.875,"endTime":1532.255,"body":"And one of the sides was the victim of bad refereeing."},{"startTime":1533.915,"endTime":1540.491,"body":"So when the students were asked to report what they'd seen in the tape of"},{"startTime":1540.491,"endTime":1547.068,"body":"the game, the students who attended the offending teams college reported seeing half as many"},{"startTime":1547.068,"endTime":1551.015,"body":"illegal plays as the students from the other institution."},{"startTime":1551.595,"endTime":1557.507,"body":"So in other words, their actual perception was deeply shaped by their allegiance, what they"},{"startTime":1557.507,"endTime":1561.055,"body":"were invested in the side that they were on."},{"startTime":1562.635,"endTime":1567.641,"body":"And so Kahan draws from this immoral, which is very similar I think to Plato's"},{"startTime":1567.641,"endTime":1567.975,"body":"Cave."},{"startTime":1568.435,"endTime":1575.985,"body":"He says, people find it disconcerting to believe that behavior that they find noble is"},{"startTime":1575.985,"endTime":1583.535,"body":"nevertheless detrimental to society and behavior that they find base is beneficial to it, right?"},{"startTime":1583.835,"endTime":1589.065,"body":"If there's a claim that would drive a wedge between them and their peers, they"},{"startTime":1589.065,"endTime":1591.855,"body":"have a strong emotional predisposition to reject it."},{"startTime":1592.435,"endTime":1599.17,"body":"So people are motivated to clinging to whatever position reinforces the values and the group"},{"startTime":1599.17,"endTime":1601.415,"body":"identity that they already share."},{"startTime":1601.755,"endTime":1606.73,"body":"And so they will resist efforts to give them information to help get them out"},{"startTime":1606.73,"endTime":1607.725,"body":"of the cave."},{"startTime":1608.035,"endTime":1614.0,"body":"Because as Kahan says, if the truth carries implications that threaten people's cultural values, then"},{"startTime":1614.0,"endTime":1619.965,"body":"this is going to make them more resistant when they hear new evidence, not less."},{"startTime":1622.345,"endTime":1627.16,"body":"So we have this problem that people may not listen to the science if they"},{"startTime":1627.16,"endTime":1628.765,"body":"think it's threatening their values."},{"startTime":1629.945,"endTime":1637.061,"body":"And as American congressperson, Deborah Ross recently said, when people don't trust scientists, they don't"},{"startTime":1637.061,"endTime":1638.485,"body":"trust the science."},{"startTime":1640.025,"endTime":1645.365,"body":"So there's a related problem here, which is lack of trust in scientists."},{"startTime":1645.505,"endTime":1651.655,"body":"And this also has been shown to be a real problem that stops people from"},{"startTime":1651.655,"endTime":1656.165,"body":"truly coming to know and understand the realities of climate change."},{"startTime":1657.705,"endTime":1662.605,"body":"And this is a problem that other psychologists have called cold competence."},{"startTime":1663.425,"endTime":1670.751,"body":"So the problem of cold competence is when groups such as scientists are judged to"},{"startTime":1670.751,"endTime":1676.125,"body":"be competent, but they're still distrusted in terms of their intentions."},{"startTime":1677.225,"endTime":1684.438,"body":"And so the psychologist Susan Fisk and Sidney Dupre have found that climate scientists in"},{"startTime":1684.438,"endTime":1687.805,"body":"particular are often distrusted in this way."},{"startTime":1688.105,"endTime":1694.115,"body":"People will say, we recognize they know what they're talking about, they know the science,"},{"startTime":1694.115,"endTime":1699.325,"body":"but we don't believe that they are well intentioned towards people like us."},{"startTime":1700.225,"endTime":1707.125,"body":"And Fisk and Dupre say that they will sometimes see people imputing motives to climate"},{"startTime":1707.125,"endTime":1714.025,"body":"scientists, including as they write motives to lie with statistics, complicate a simple story, show"},{"startTime":1714.025,"endTime":1717.245,"body":"superiority, gain research, money and so on."},{"startTime":1718.875,"endTime":1725.425,"body":"And so again, the issue here is whether experts are perceived as being well disposed"},{"startTime":1725.425,"endTime":1726.735,"body":"to the listeners."},{"startTime":1726.955,"endTime":1731.767,"body":"And if they aren't, then people are going to spur the offer to lead them"},{"startTime":1731.767,"endTime":1734.655,"body":"out of the cave rather than to accept it."},{"startTime":1736.715,"endTime":1738.655,"body":"So how do we solve this?"},{"startTime":1738.795,"endTime":1739.375,"body":"How problem?"},{"startTime":1740.245,"endTime":1744.135,"body":"Well, here I want to turn to another ancient Greek resource."},{"startTime":1744.715,"endTime":1748.735,"body":"And this is from Plato's star student, um, Aristotle."},{"startTime":1748.765,"endTime":1755.535,"body":"This is a much later, um, depiction of Aristotle because Aristotle wrote a work on"},{"startTime":1755.535,"endTime":1761.855,"body":"rhetoric that can actually help us, I think address these deep issues in communication."},{"startTime":1764.035,"endTime":1769.347,"body":"So on Aristotle's analysis in his work called the rhetoric, there are three dimensions of"},{"startTime":1769.347,"endTime":1774.66,"body":"rhetoric and we have to get them all aligned if people are going to be"},{"startTime":1774.66,"endTime":1775.015,"body":"persuaded."},{"startTime":1776.235,"endTime":1781.991,"body":"So there is logos, this is the domain of logical argument, this is the substance,"},{"startTime":1781.991,"endTime":1785.445,"body":"the knowledge, what you study if you're a scientist."},{"startTime":1786.745,"endTime":1794.53,"body":"But there's also ethos, this is character, your virtue, your general uprightness, whether you're trusted"},{"startTime":1794.53,"endTime":1797.125,"body":"to do the right thing."},{"startTime":1798.505,"endTime":1800.565,"body":"And there's pathos."},{"startTime":1800.995,"endTime":1803.245,"body":"This is the domain of the emotions."},{"startTime":1803.905,"endTime":1809.431,"body":"So all three of these have to be working in the right way in tandem"},{"startTime":1809.431,"endTime":1813.485,"body":"if a given act of communication is going to be successful."},{"startTime":1814.945,"endTime":1821.616,"body":"So Aristotle deploys this analysis actually to analyze exactly the kind of case of cold"},{"startTime":1821.616,"endTime":1824.285,"body":"competence that I was just describing."},{"startTime":1825.305,"endTime":1831.155,"body":"So for example, he, he describes, there are cases when listeners will say that a"},{"startTime":1831.155,"endTime":1832.325,"body":"speaker is knowledgeable."},{"startTime":1832.475,"endTime":1836.245,"body":"They'll say, we recognize that speaker has a command of logos."},{"startTime":1837.185,"endTime":1842.981,"body":"And they may even say that the speaker is general generally virtuous, that they have"},{"startTime":1842.981,"endTime":1846.845,"body":"a good character or ethos, but they'll still distrust them."},{"startTime":1847.195,"endTime":1849.245,"body":"They'll still not want to listen to them."},{"startTime":1849.425,"endTime":1849.645,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1849.955,"endTime":1852.365,"body":"Because they don't trust their emotions."},{"startTime":1852.595,"endTime":1856.765,"body":"They don't trust that the speaker has good emotional intent."},{"startTime":1857.225,"endTime":1864.925,"body":"In Greek, Aristotle used the word unia goodwill towards the listener and their own group."},{"startTime":1866.145,"endTime":1872.645,"body":"So Aristotle says, we often feel anger towards speakers who show hubris or contempt, right?"},{"startTime":1872.645,"endTime":1875.085,"body":"Those are forms of pathos."},{"startTime":1875.085,"endTime":1880.565,"body":"We show anger towards them 'cause we think their emotions are contemptuous towards us."},{"startTime":1881.905,"endTime":1885.925,"body":"And he says, we often become angry at those announcing bad news."},{"startTime":1886.145,"endTime":1888.365,"body":"We might be inclined to shoot the messenger."},{"startTime":1890.385,"endTime":1895.725,"body":"So this resonates I think with problems that we see in climate change communication."},{"startTime":1896.535,"endTime":1903.613,"body":"Often people are perceived as talking down to lay audiences showing contempt for traditional world"},{"startTime":1903.613,"endTime":1904.085,"body":"views."},{"startTime":1904.865,"endTime":1911.34,"body":"And again, I think this resonates with what Miles Allen was arguing in his most"},{"startTime":1911.34,"endTime":1917.815,"body":"recent Gresham lecture on the environment when he addressed those that he called the climate"},{"startTime":1917.815,"endTime":1924.29,"body":"establishment, saying that they have to work harder to avoid group think, to start thinking"},{"startTime":1924.29,"endTime":1930.765,"body":"harder about who's being disenfranchised by an our technocratic expert led approach to climate policy."},{"startTime":1932.625,"endTime":1939.513,"body":"So in this, in this way, Aristotle's rhetoric would be a tool for what the"},{"startTime":1939.513,"endTime":1944.565,"body":"political theorist Danielle Allen has called the Art of trust production."},{"startTime":1945.345,"endTime":1949.165,"body":"We have to use rhetoric in order to produce trust."},{"startTime":1949.745,"endTime":1955.049,"body":"And the only way to do that is to make sure that it engages emotion"},{"startTime":1955.049,"endTime":1957.525,"body":"and character as well as simply argument."},{"startTime":1958.425,"endTime":1965.422,"body":"We, if we aren't attentive to the ways that communication might generate anger or envy"},{"startTime":1965.422,"endTime":1972.42,"body":"or contempt, then we will fail to help persuade people to accept communication, to turn"},{"startTime":1972.42,"endTime":1977.085,"body":"around and to see the way out of the cave."},{"startTime":1980.135,"endTime":1984.92,"body":"So this brings me to my third and final question for this lecture, which to"},{"startTime":1984.92,"endTime":1986.835,"body":"remind you again was what if."},{"startTime":1987.735,"endTime":1992.626,"body":"So the question now is, okay, we do all our effort in climate change communication,"},{"startTime":1992.626,"endTime":1995.235,"body":"we use rhetoric in the best possible way."},{"startTime":1995.895,"endTime":1997.875,"body":"But what if that falls short?"},{"startTime":1998.735,"endTime":2003.275,"body":"In that case, can the telling of noble lies ever be justified?"},{"startTime":2004.775,"endTime":2008.955,"body":"And on this point, actually Aristotle and Plato diverged."},{"startTime":2009.375,"endTime":2012.475,"body":"So here's a way of thinking about the problem of noble lie."},{"startTime":2013.175,"endTime":2016.515,"body":"So for Aristotle, the situation is always like this."},{"startTime":2017.255,"endTime":2022.097,"body":"In the long run, telling lies is going to not achieve the aims that you"},{"startTime":2022.097,"endTime":2024.035,"body":"are seeking by telling the truth."},{"startTime":2024.215,"endTime":2028.875,"body":"So for Aristotle, these two signposts always point in opposite directions."},{"startTime":2030.055,"endTime":2036.221,"body":"But Plato in the republic does allow in some cases for the telling of what"},{"startTime":2036.221,"endTime":2041.155,"body":"he calls noble lies so long as they express an underlying truth."},{"startTime":2041.895,"endTime":2045.878,"body":"So the idea here is that sometimes lies can be pointing in the same direction"},{"startTime":2045.878,"endTime":2046.675,"body":"as the truth."},{"startTime":2047.255,"endTime":2050.235,"body":"And telling these lies is deceptive."},{"startTime":2050.614,"endTime":2055.058,"body":"It does in a way manipulate people, but it does it for a good cause,"},{"startTime":2055.058,"endTime":2055.355,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2055.375,"endTime":2058.235,"body":"The end is supposed to justify the means."},{"startTime":2059.655,"endTime":2065.849,"body":"And so this brings us to a really deep question for science and politics and"},{"startTime":2065.849,"endTime":2066.675,"body":"philosophy, right?"},{"startTime":2066.815,"endTime":2074.0,"body":"Is lying ever justified in the service of some greater truth that the image of"},{"startTime":2074.0,"endTime":2076.875,"body":"the cave would seem to portray?"},{"startTime":2079.105,"endTime":2084.912,"body":"Well, we can draw here, um, on work, uh, by the American philosopher CIL Le"},{"startTime":2084.912,"endTime":2087.235,"body":"Bach on the ethics of lying."},{"startTime":2088.455,"endTime":2094.718,"body":"And Bach was writing in the 1970s in the wake of the tragic debacle of"},{"startTime":2094.718,"endTime":2100.982,"body":"American foreign policy in the Vietnam War, which had been led by purportedly the best"},{"startTime":2100.982,"endTime":2102.235,"body":"and the brightest."},{"startTime":2102.295,"endTime":2109.068,"body":"So experts who lied in certain crucial moments of the war as was exposed, um,"},{"startTime":2109.068,"endTime":2110.875,"body":"by the Pentagon Papers."},{"startTime":2112.775,"endTime":2119.235,"body":"And so the moral of her story resonates with the need for self-aware, skeptical testing"},{"startTime":2119.235,"endTime":2124.835,"body":"of purported experts that I argued for also in my previous Gresham lecture."},{"startTime":2126.775,"endTime":2134.218,"body":"So box says We know how deception, even for the most unselfish motive, corrupts and"},{"startTime":2134.218,"endTime":2134.715,"body":"spreads."},{"startTime":2135.255,"endTime":2141.634,"body":"And we've lived through the consequences of lies told for what were believed to be"},{"startTime":2141.634,"endTime":2142.485,"body":"noble purposes."},{"startTime":2143.025,"endTime":2148.23,"body":"And I think many of us can think of other more recent examples in which"},{"startTime":2148.23,"endTime":2149.965,"body":"that analysis also holds true."},{"startTime":2152.105,"endTime":2158.938,"body":"So the problem of noble lies is that it can fall prey to that tendency"},{"startTime":2158.938,"endTime":2165.771,"body":"to group think, um, which I described, um, miles Allen as identifying and which people"},{"startTime":2165.771,"endTime":2172.605,"body":"often fear even if it's not justified, as in the case of cold competence, right?"},{"startTime":2172.605,"endTime":2179.931,"body":"We have to fear the tendency of elites actually to develop a self-righteous sense of"},{"startTime":2179.931,"endTime":2181.885,"body":"moral and intellectual superiority."},{"startTime":2183.945,"endTime":2189.576,"body":"And so for these reasons, noble lies are not justified, I would argue in order"},{"startTime":2189.576,"endTime":2192.205,"body":"to help people out of the cave."},{"startTime":2193.545,"endTime":2199.245,"body":"So to rule them out, we need an ethical code for science communication."},{"startTime":2200.265,"endTime":2206.888,"body":"And I've worked on this with some Princeton colleagues, um, a social scientist Bob Cohane"},{"startTime":2206.888,"endTime":2213.512,"body":"and a natural scientist, um, on the right, Michael Oppenheimer and the three of us,"},{"startTime":2213.512,"endTime":2217.045,"body":"um, worked on ethical norms for scientific communication."},{"startTime":2218.105,"endTime":2222.245,"body":"Now you can see here that we put honesty in a special category."},{"startTime":2222.485,"endTime":2223.365,"body":"I put it in green."},{"startTime":2223.385,"endTime":2229.347,"body":"But in our article, we put it in a special category because we argued that"},{"startTime":2229.347,"endTime":2232.925,"body":"honesty is required of scientists in an unconditional way."},{"startTime":2233.265,"endTime":2237.805,"body":"It attaches to the professional role of being a scientist."},{"startTime":2239.225,"endTime":2246.222,"body":"But even if that rules out noble lies, the challenge that this list shows us"},{"startTime":2246.222,"endTime":2253.22,"body":"is that we're back in the problem in a way of rhetoric because scientific communication"},{"startTime":2253.22,"endTime":2259.285,"body":"has to be honest, but it also has to achieve audience relevance, right?"},{"startTime":2259.345,"endTime":2262.485,"body":"It also has to persuade people from where they are."},{"startTime":2262.985,"endTime":2269.277,"body":"So we can set aside the problem of noble lies, but that just pushes us"},{"startTime":2269.277,"endTime":2275.57,"body":"back into the problem of rhetoric as to how we can achieve rhetorically effective communication"},{"startTime":2275.57,"endTime":2280.605,"body":"that people won't resist, but they will actually be motivated to accept."},{"startTime":2281.345,"endTime":2283.045,"body":"So we can set aside noble lies."},{"startTime":2283.065,"endTime":2288.405,"body":"But we still have the problem of aligning logos, ethos, and pathos."},{"startTime":2289.825,"endTime":2293.085,"body":"And so there are real trade-offs in doing this."},{"startTime":2293.095,"endTime":2299.508,"body":"These norms are all norms that scientists have to aim to satisfy, but they may"},{"startTime":2299.508,"endTime":2305.921,"body":"have to figure out how to do it In any given case, trying to make"},{"startTime":2305.921,"endTime":2312.334,"body":"scientific insights relative relevant to audiences who fear or resent what they take to be"},{"startTime":2312.334,"endTime":2318.747,"body":"its implications are is never going to be easy trying to do so in the"},{"startTime":2318.747,"endTime":2320.885,"body":"high stakes of climate change."},{"startTime":2321.385,"endTime":2326.876,"body":"The effort to get people to give up clinging to the certainties of the climate"},{"startTime":2326.876,"endTime":2329.805,"body":"denial cave is the challenge of our lifetime."},{"startTime":2330.665,"endTime":2337.353,"body":"So the task is to experiment with ways to regain trust and renew faith in"},{"startTime":2337.353,"endTime":2338.245,"body":"mutual goodwill."},{"startTime":2338.865,"endTime":2343.805,"body":"And we have to remember that trust once lost is very difficult to regain."},{"startTime":2344.305,"endTime":2351.496,"body":"And so my final image is this, um, and it illustrates a remark made by"},{"startTime":2351.496,"endTime":2358.687,"body":"the sociologist Zainab to Epci, who recently reflected on the failures in public policy and"},{"startTime":2358.687,"endTime":2361.085,"body":"scientific communication during the pandemic."},{"startTime":2361.625,"endTime":2367.805,"body":"And she said Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets, and this bucket"},{"startTime":2367.805,"endTime":2371.925,"body":"is going to take a very long time to refill."},{"startTime":2372.815,"endTime":2374.925,"body":"Thank you very much for your attention."}]}