{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.4,"endTime":2.58,"body":"- So I hope you've got your"},{"startTime":0.4,"endTime":2.58,"body":"thinking caps on tonight"},{"startTime":2.58,"endTime":4.54,"body":"because this one is a"},{"startTime":2.58,"endTime":4.54,"body":"tough one, all right?"},{"startTime":4.54,"endTime":6.978,"body":"I will admit it. (laughs)"},{"startTime":6.978,"endTime":8.77,"body":"And it's taken me to the"},{"startTime":6.978,"endTime":8.77,"body":"edge of my knowledge,"},{"startTime":8.77,"endTime":11.27,"body":"but I have to say in"},{"startTime":8.77,"endTime":11.27,"body":"preparing this lecture,"},{"startTime":11.27,"endTime":13.97,"body":"it's brought back"},{"startTime":11.27,"endTime":13.97,"body":"enormous amounts of things"},{"startTime":13.97,"endTime":15.89,"body":"that I learned 20, 30 years ago."},{"startTime":15.89,"endTime":18.59,"body":"So it's been a refreshing journey."},{"startTime":18.59,"endTime":20.31,"body":"The sad thing is that not much has changed"},{"startTime":20.31,"endTime":22.74,"body":"in 30 years, so that's the bad news."},{"startTime":22.74,"endTime":24.61,"body":"But let me sort of strike out,"},{"startTime":24.61,"endTime":28.33,"body":"because I felt very much that what COVID"},{"startTime":28.33,"endTime":31.42,"body":"and what the COP26 did was open the door"},{"startTime":31.42,"endTime":33.99,"body":"to actually what I'm"},{"startTime":31.42,"endTime":33.99,"body":"going to tell you today."},{"startTime":33.99,"endTime":36.15,"body":"And so I'm going to hopefully give you"},{"startTime":36.15,"endTime":38.9,"body":"a slightly upbeat conversation"},{"startTime":38.9,"endTime":41.71,"body":"about things that are"},{"startTime":38.9,"endTime":41.71,"body":"hopefully not too esoteric,"},{"startTime":41.71,"endTime":44.6,"body":"but I am going to stray back"},{"startTime":41.71,"endTime":44.6,"body":"into the sort of 17th century"},{"startTime":44.6,"endTime":45.88,"body":"a few times, okay?"},{"startTime":45.88,"endTime":47.76,"body":"So I promise not to make it too much"},{"startTime":47.76,"endTime":50.173,"body":"like a historical tour of philosophy."},{"startTime":51.1,"endTime":54.17,"body":"But here's the challenge."},{"startTime":51.1,"endTime":54.17,"body":"because, of course,"},{"startTime":54.17,"endTime":56.53,"body":"universal values are things that people"},{"startTime":56.53,"endTime":57.9,"body":"don't really talk about today."},{"startTime":57.9,"endTime":60.53,"body":"It's not something that is"},{"startTime":57.9,"endTime":60.53,"body":"on the tip of your tongue."},{"startTime":60.53,"endTime":63.5,"body":"It's not something that we would think"},{"startTime":63.5,"endTime":65.35,"body":"is relevant to everyday life."},{"startTime":65.35,"endTime":66.93,"body":"But what I hope I'm going to be able to do"},{"startTime":66.93,"endTime":69.197,"body":"by the end of tonight"},{"startTime":66.93,"endTime":69.197,"body":"is to give you a sense"},{"startTime":69.197,"endTime":73.15,"body":"and a flavor of how it"},{"startTime":69.197,"endTime":73.15,"body":"really is fundamental"},{"startTime":73.15,"endTime":75.55,"body":"to the way we're going"},{"startTime":73.15,"endTime":75.55,"body":"to live in the future."},{"startTime":75.55,"endTime":77.83,"body":"So this fundamental question"},{"startTime":77.83,"endTime":80.82,"body":"of does nature have a universal value"},{"startTime":80.82,"endTime":83.02,"body":"comes really at a time when we are facing"},{"startTime":83.02,"endTime":87.22,"body":"enormous losses of"},{"startTime":83.02,"endTime":87.22,"body":"biodiversity, ecosystems,"},{"startTime":87.22,"endTime":89.44,"body":"a possible sixth extinction"},{"startTime":89.44,"endTime":91.09,"body":"if we don't get things right,"},{"startTime":91.09,"endTime":93.51,"body":"relying on nature-based solutions"},{"startTime":93.51,"endTime":95.19,"body":"to tackle climate change"},{"startTime":95.19,"endTime":97.59,"body":"and reductions of carbon"},{"startTime":95.19,"endTime":97.59,"body":"in the atmosphere."},{"startTime":97.59,"endTime":100.67,"body":"So basically, it's all on nature,"},{"startTime":100.67,"endTime":103.59,"body":"but we don't really have a"},{"startTime":100.67,"endTime":103.59,"body":"universal value of nature,"},{"startTime":103.59,"endTime":105.183,"body":"so here is the dilemma."},{"startTime":106.28,"endTime":107.42,"body":"Because if we think about, well,"},{"startTime":107.42,"endTime":111.21,"body":"what is a value, what"},{"startTime":107.42,"endTime":111.21,"body":"does a universal value"},{"startTime":111.21,"endTime":113.11,"body":"look like, what it really means"},{"startTime":113.11,"endTime":115.26,"body":"is that it has the same value or worth"},{"startTime":115.26,"endTime":117.74,"body":"for all people or when all people"},{"startTime":117.74,"endTime":119.973,"body":"have reason to believe it has value."},{"startTime":120.94,"endTime":121.773,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":121.773,"endTime":124.96,"body":"So whether or not such a thing exists"},{"startTime":124.96,"endTime":127.17,"body":"is still a conjecture,"},{"startTime":127.17,"endTime":129.13,"body":"it's a conjecture of moral philosophy,"},{"startTime":129.13,"endTime":131.91,"body":"but it is clear that we"},{"startTime":129.13,"endTime":131.91,"body":"do have certain values,"},{"startTime":131.91,"endTime":134.43,"body":"physical health, a symmetry in the way"},{"startTime":134.43,"endTime":135.73,"body":"we are in our bodies."},{"startTime":135.73,"endTime":137.87,"body":"These are found across a huge diversity"},{"startTime":137.87,"endTime":140.55,"body":"of human cultures, so they do exist."},{"startTime":140.55,"endTime":144.11,"body":"Whereas others, slimness,"},{"startTime":140.55,"endTime":144.11,"body":"for example, is relative."},{"startTime":144.11,"endTime":145.73,"body":"I happen to live in Kenya,"},{"startTime":145.73,"endTime":148.18,"body":"where large ladies are revered,"},{"startTime":148.18,"endTime":150.59,"body":"and I'm kind of like the one"},{"startTime":148.18,"endTime":150.59,"body":"that doesn't fit in, you see?"},{"startTime":150.59,"endTime":151.9,"body":"So I'm putting on weight now."},{"startTime":151.9,"endTime":152.85,"body":"That's my COVID."},{"startTime":152.85,"endTime":154.31,"body":"Excellent."},{"startTime":152.85,"endTime":154.31,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":154.31,"endTime":157.89,"body":"So I'm moving in the"},{"startTime":154.31,"endTime":157.89,"body":"relativistic way, right?"},{"startTime":157.89,"endTime":159.28,"body":"But in a sense,"},{"startTime":159.28,"endTime":161.77,"body":"this sort of relativism"},{"startTime":159.28,"endTime":161.77,"body":"is actually opposed"},{"startTime":161.77,"endTime":164.46,"body":"to the existence of universal values."},{"startTime":164.46,"endTime":165.33,"body":"But what I want to do"},{"startTime":165.33,"endTime":167.89,"body":"is I want to think about Isaiah Berlin."},{"startTime":167.89,"endTime":169.76,"body":"And he had an understanding,"},{"startTime":169.76,"endTime":171.35,"body":"which he wrote about in his essays,"},{"startTime":171.35,"endTime":173.14,"body":"the four essays on liberty."},{"startTime":173.14,"endTime":175.5,"body":"And in the same way that Amartya Sen"},{"startTime":175.5,"endTime":178.56,"body":"says that universal values are values"},{"startTime":178.56,"endTime":181.76,"body":"that a great human beings"},{"startTime":178.56,"endTime":181.76,"body":"in the vast majority"},{"startTime":181.76,"endTime":183.61,"body":"of places and situations"},{"startTime":183.61,"endTime":185.87,"body":"at almost all times do,"},{"startTime":185.87,"endTime":188.05,"body":"in fact, hold in common,"},{"startTime":188.05,"endTime":190.5,"body":"whether consciously and explicitly"},{"startTime":190.5,"endTime":192.423,"body":"or expressed in their behavior."},{"startTime":193.49,"endTime":195.93,"body":"Now, many of you will"},{"startTime":193.49,"endTime":195.93,"body":"know that Mahatma Gandhi"},{"startTime":195.93,"endTime":198.61,"body":"considered that nonviolence"},{"startTime":195.93,"endTime":198.61,"body":"was a universal value."},{"startTime":198.61,"endTime":200.88,"body":"What he was saying is that all people"},{"startTime":200.88,"endTime":203.93,"body":"have a reason to value nonviolence,"},{"startTime":203.93,"endTime":206.84,"body":"not that all people are"},{"startTime":203.93,"endTime":206.84,"body":"currently engaged in nonviolence."},{"startTime":206.84,"endTime":208.57,"body":"There's a difference."},{"startTime":208.57,"endTime":210.91,"body":"If we think about where this comes"},{"startTime":210.91,"endTime":214.13,"body":"into sort of the daily business"},{"startTime":214.13,"endTime":216.83,"body":"of governments, there it sits"},{"startTime":216.83,"endTime":220.12,"body":"in the UN Convention on"},{"startTime":216.83,"endTime":220.12,"body":"Biological Diversity."},{"startTime":220.12,"endTime":223.24,"body":"So the intrinsic value"},{"startTime":220.12,"endTime":223.24,"body":"of biological diversity"},{"startTime":223.24,"endTime":227.027,"body":"and so on and so, it's"},{"startTime":223.24,"endTime":227.027,"body":"all about the values"},{"startTime":227.027,"endTime":228.77,"body":"of that biological diversity."},{"startTime":228.77,"endTime":230.94,"body":"So it's an important meaning,"},{"startTime":230.94,"endTime":232.9,"body":"that we have to do more"},{"startTime":230.94,"endTime":232.9,"body":"than just simply count"},{"startTime":232.9,"endTime":235.4,"body":"the species and map where they are."},{"startTime":235.4,"endTime":237.7,"body":"We have to understand what they bring,"},{"startTime":237.7,"endTime":239.36,"body":"in and of themselves, to each other,"},{"startTime":239.36,"endTime":241.51,"body":"as well as what they"},{"startTime":239.36,"endTime":241.51,"body":"can bring to humanity."},{"startTime":242.61,"endTime":244.24,"body":"So the challenge, then,"},{"startTime":244.24,"endTime":246.47,"body":"is that if we want action to halt"},{"startTime":246.47,"endTime":248.17,"body":"the loss of biodiversity and, obviously,"},{"startTime":248.17,"endTime":251.41,"body":"climate change, it's going to"},{"startTime":248.17,"endTime":251.41,"body":"require action by everyone."},{"startTime":251.41,"endTime":253.28,"body":"All of us are going to"},{"startTime":251.41,"endTime":253.28,"body":"have to be involved."},{"startTime":253.28,"endTime":256.39,"body":"And so the issue is, does the world"},{"startTime":256.39,"endTime":258.53,"body":"consider conservation and stewardship"},{"startTime":258.53,"endTime":261.59,"body":"of biodiversity in nature"},{"startTime":258.53,"endTime":261.59,"body":"to be just such a thing"},{"startTime":261.59,"endTime":264.24,"body":"to motivate us all to action?"},{"startTime":264.24,"endTime":265.45,"body":"Some of you may have heard of a man"},{"startTime":265.45,"endTime":266.74,"body":"called Sir John Harman."},{"startTime":266.74,"endTime":268.44,"body":"He was a former counselor,"},{"startTime":268.44,"endTime":270.7,"body":"but he was also the chair"},{"startTime":268.44,"endTime":270.7,"body":"of the Environment Agency."},{"startTime":270.7,"endTime":273.44,"body":"And he wrote a Fabian Society pamphlet"},{"startTime":273.44,"endTime":277.04,"body":"called \"The Green Crunch\""},{"startTime":273.44,"endTime":277.04,"body":"about 12 years ago now."},{"startTime":277.04,"endTime":279.89,"body":"But what he says is very,"},{"startTime":277.04,"endTime":279.89,"body":"very relevant for today"},{"startTime":279.89,"endTime":283.347,"body":"because he says, \"An"},{"startTime":279.89,"endTime":283.347,"body":"ecologically intelligent world"},{"startTime":283.347,"endTime":286.117,"body":"\"where universal value"},{"startTime":283.347,"endTime":286.117,"body":"of nature is recognized"},{"startTime":286.117,"endTime":289.277,"body":"\"cannot be smuggled past the electorate."},{"startTime":289.277,"endTime":291.357,"body":"\"It's going to need their support."},{"startTime":291.357,"endTime":294.097,"body":"\"And to get that is going"},{"startTime":291.357,"endTime":294.097,"body":"to require much more"},{"startTime":294.097,"endTime":296.497,"body":"\"than the rationale we are offering today."},{"startTime":296.497,"endTime":299.367,"body":"\"That we need to take action"},{"startTime":296.497,"endTime":299.367,"body":"over carbon in nature,"},{"startTime":299.367,"endTime":303.27,"body":"\"because if we don't, things"},{"startTime":299.367,"endTime":303.27,"body":"are only going to get worse.\""},{"startTime":303.27,"endTime":304.87,"body":"And what he sees, of course,"},{"startTime":304.87,"endTime":308.46,"body":"is that instead, we need"},{"startTime":304.87,"endTime":308.46,"body":"the principles of action"},{"startTime":308.46,"endTime":311.01,"body":"and language to bring all of it to life."},{"startTime":311.01,"endTime":313.31,"body":"In other words, it could"},{"startTime":311.01,"endTime":313.31,"body":"be about stewardship."},{"startTime":313.31,"endTime":315.6,"body":"It could be about the valuing Earth,"},{"startTime":315.6,"endTime":318.64,"body":"living in balance with nature, solidarity,"},{"startTime":318.64,"endTime":319.95,"body":"care for the future."},{"startTime":319.95,"endTime":322.55,"body":"So whatever the phrase,"},{"startTime":319.95,"endTime":322.55,"body":"whatever the language is,"},{"startTime":322.55,"endTime":325.36,"body":"that's the point, that's"},{"startTime":322.55,"endTime":325.36,"body":"what's got to motivate people."},{"startTime":325.36,"endTime":326.87,"body":"It's not something you can kind of do"},{"startTime":326.87,"endTime":328.41,"body":"under cover of darkness."},{"startTime":328.41,"endTime":330.26,"body":"That is not going to cut it."},{"startTime":330.26,"endTime":332.92,"body":"And that's really got to"},{"startTime":330.26,"endTime":332.92,"body":"be what drives society"},{"startTime":332.92,"endTime":334.96,"body":"and our choices, but they have"},{"startTime":334.96,"endTime":336.863,"body":"to be within practical reach."},{"startTime":337.97,"endTime":341.74,"body":"So when I began sort of"},{"startTime":337.97,"endTime":341.74,"body":"thinking about these lectures"},{"startTime":341.74,"endTime":345.59,"body":"last year, I was really back in Kenya."},{"startTime":345.59,"endTime":347.92,"body":"I was sitting in my mud hut,"},{"startTime":347.92,"endTime":349.96,"body":"looking out over the Rift Valley."},{"startTime":349.96,"endTime":351.54,"body":"The view from my hut, by the way."},{"startTime":351.54,"endTime":352.497,"body":"Not bad, eh?"},{"startTime":353.55,"endTime":356.33,"body":"Little village, mud hut, sun setting"},{"startTime":356.33,"endTime":358.35,"body":"over the horizon of the savanna."},{"startTime":358.35,"endTime":359.72,"body":"I was listening to the sounds"},{"startTime":359.72,"endTime":362.93,"body":"of millions of wildebeest"},{"startTime":359.72,"endTime":362.93,"body":"and zebra and buffalo"},{"startTime":362.93,"endTime":364.7,"body":"as they're kind of making their migration"},{"startTime":364.7,"endTime":365.91,"body":"across the Mara."},{"startTime":365.91,"endTime":367.76,"body":"Listening to the hyenas"},{"startTime":367.76,"endTime":369.94,"body":"creeping ever closer to the village"},{"startTime":369.94,"endTime":371.8,"body":"because we have cattle and sheep"},{"startTime":371.8,"endTime":373.523,"body":"and goats inside the village."},{"startTime":374.43,"endTime":376.46,"body":"Elephants moving in the forest,"},{"startTime":376.46,"endTime":379.33,"body":"migrating birds circling"},{"startTime":376.46,"endTime":379.33,"body":"in the skies above me."},{"startTime":379.33,"endTime":381.39,"body":"And at my feet, two faithful dogs,"},{"startTime":381.39,"endTime":383.81,"body":"Maasai hunting dogs who"},{"startTime":381.39,"endTime":383.81,"body":"decided that the life"},{"startTime":383.81,"endTime":385.81,"body":"of a guard was just what they wanted"},{"startTime":385.81,"endTime":387.93,"body":"'cause they'd get fed,"},{"startTime":385.81,"endTime":387.93,"body":"and they loved that."},{"startTime":387.93,"endTime":389.98,"body":"Very sadly, they died in the line of duty."},{"startTime":389.98,"endTime":392.59,"body":"One got torn apart by a pack of dogs,"},{"startTime":392.59,"endTime":394.33,"body":"and the other one got killed"},{"startTime":394.33,"endTime":395.41,"body":"fighting off a lion."},{"startTime":395.41,"endTime":398.36,"body":"So very brave, my dogs were very brave."},{"startTime":398.36,"endTime":401.42,"body":"But what I was realizing"},{"startTime":398.36,"endTime":401.42,"body":"as I was writing this"},{"startTime":401.42,"endTime":404.62,"body":"was how deeply the"},{"startTime":401.42,"endTime":404.62,"body":"intensity of the savanna"},{"startTime":404.62,"endTime":406.63,"body":"and all of the flora and fauna"},{"startTime":406.63,"endTime":409.58,"body":"get really ingrained"},{"startTime":406.63,"endTime":409.58,"body":"in your consciousness,"},{"startTime":409.58,"endTime":411.33,"body":"and what this really looked like,"},{"startTime":411.33,"endTime":414.73,"body":"alongside all those textures and shades"},{"startTime":414.73,"endTime":416.8,"body":"that we get from the British countryside."},{"startTime":416.8,"endTime":419.45,"body":"And in a sense, it"},{"startTime":416.8,"endTime":419.45,"body":"evokes the same reaction,"},{"startTime":419.45,"endTime":421.683,"body":"the same sentiment within me."},{"startTime":422.6,"endTime":424.81,"body":"And also, I mean, the kinds of times"},{"startTime":424.81,"endTime":427.61,"body":"when I was spending at the"},{"startTime":424.81,"endTime":427.61,"body":"sea, in the open expanse"},{"startTime":427.61,"endTime":429.67,"body":"of the oceans and up in the Arctic,"},{"startTime":429.67,"endTime":431.48,"body":"up on the ice cap."},{"startTime":431.48,"endTime":433.79,"body":"And so opening yourself to these kinds"},{"startTime":433.79,"endTime":436.1,"body":"of environments, in a sense,"},{"startTime":436.1,"endTime":438.423,"body":"brings that moral sentiment to the fore."},{"startTime":439.32,"endTime":440.63,"body":"But what I noticed"},{"startTime":440.63,"endTime":443.51,"body":"and have continued to"},{"startTime":440.63,"endTime":443.51,"body":"notice is the Maasai,"},{"startTime":443.51,"endTime":445.38,"body":"along with many Indigenous peoples,"},{"startTime":445.38,"endTime":448.14,"body":"have an inbuilt logic about their lives."},{"startTime":448.14,"endTime":451.02,"body":"And it's based on the"},{"startTime":448.14,"endTime":451.02,"body":"patterns of resources,"},{"startTime":451.02,"endTime":453.5,"body":"the scarcity and the"},{"startTime":451.02,"endTime":453.5,"body":"abundance around them."},{"startTime":453.5,"endTime":455.14,"body":"And effectively, they don't need"},{"startTime":455.14,"endTime":457.22,"body":"a separate economic logic."},{"startTime":457.22,"endTime":459.49,"body":"It's just a continuum."},{"startTime":459.49,"endTime":463.26,"body":"And it makes sense that they"},{"startTime":459.49,"endTime":463.26,"body":"don't separate out markets"},{"startTime":463.26,"endTime":464.33,"body":"and non-markets."},{"startTime":464.33,"endTime":466.72,"body":"Essentially, it is a continuum."},{"startTime":466.72,"endTime":468.38,"body":"And this is really contrary"},{"startTime":468.38,"endTime":470.68,"body":"to what Herman Daly was"},{"startTime":468.38,"endTime":470.68,"body":"observing, of course,"},{"startTime":470.68,"endTime":472.82,"body":"around industrialized societies,"},{"startTime":472.82,"endTime":475.06,"body":"which has got an economic logic"},{"startTime":475.06,"endTime":477.53,"body":"of maximizing returns to an investment"},{"startTime":477.53,"endTime":480.91,"body":"in the produced capital,"},{"startTime":477.53,"endTime":480.91,"body":"rather than nature."},{"startTime":480.91,"endTime":484.73,"body":"And so it's true to say"},{"startTime":480.91,"endTime":484.73,"body":"that there are peoples"},{"startTime":484.73,"endTime":487.23,"body":"on this Earth who consider nature"},{"startTime":487.23,"endTime":489.09,"body":"to have universal value."},{"startTime":489.09,"endTime":491.11,"body":"There is no doubt about it."},{"startTime":491.11,"endTime":493.8,"body":"And many people are opening themselves up"},{"startTime":493.8,"endTime":496.59,"body":"to precisely this kind of thinking."},{"startTime":496.59,"endTime":498.44,"body":"But it made me think about the struggles"},{"startTime":498.44,"endTime":500.14,"body":"that I see in my colleagues,"},{"startTime":500.14,"endTime":502.79,"body":"who are ecological economists,"},{"startTime":502.79,"endTime":505.6,"body":"conservationists, who are essentially"},{"startTime":505.6,"endTime":507.83,"body":"on the front lines, trying to fight"},{"startTime":507.83,"endTime":510.67,"body":"the battle against GDP."},{"startTime":510.67,"endTime":513.05,"body":"And honestly, I think it's a losing battle"},{"startTime":513.05,"endTime":514.95,"body":"because it's almost like two"},{"startTime":514.95,"endTime":517.73,"body":"totally different sentiments"},{"startTime":517.73,"endTime":520.03,"body":"and things going on in people's head."},{"startTime":520.03,"endTime":522.79,"body":"There's a world over here doing GDP,"},{"startTime":522.79,"endTime":523.78,"body":"working on this model."},{"startTime":523.78,"endTime":525.32,"body":"And then there's a world over here,"},{"startTime":525.32,"endTime":527.82,"body":"thinking about nature and sentiment"},{"startTime":527.82,"endTime":529.63,"body":"and morals and so on."},{"startTime":529.63,"endTime":532.41,"body":"So for me, it's sort of a losing battle."},{"startTime":532.41,"endTime":534.65,"body":"It's a very difficult one to see how"},{"startTime":534.65,"endTime":537.07,"body":"and who is going win, if"},{"startTime":534.65,"endTime":537.07,"body":"anyone's going to win."},{"startTime":537.07,"endTime":538.84,"body":"And I suspect that we'll all be losers"},{"startTime":538.84,"endTime":540.56,"body":"if we can't find a way to bridge"},{"startTime":540.56,"endTime":542.193,"body":"between these two worlds."},{"startTime":543.17,"endTime":545.86,"body":"So I really started to"},{"startTime":543.17,"endTime":545.86,"body":"think about the evolution"},{"startTime":545.86,"endTime":548.95,"body":"of value and values in"},{"startTime":545.86,"endTime":548.95,"body":"mainstream thinking,"},{"startTime":548.95,"endTime":551.79,"body":"particularly in industrialized economies."},{"startTime":551.79,"endTime":553.79,"body":"And what I can see, and I'm sure"},{"startTime":553.79,"endTime":555.79,"body":"it's no surprise to any of you,"},{"startTime":555.79,"endTime":558.84,"body":"is that there is a growing"},{"startTime":555.79,"endTime":558.84,"body":"gap between private"},{"startTime":558.84,"endTime":562.58,"body":"and social values, because"},{"startTime":558.84,"endTime":562.58,"body":"of the widespread frailties"},{"startTime":562.58,"endTime":565.63,"body":"in the human decision-making that we have,"},{"startTime":565.63,"endTime":568.21,"body":"and also a sort of drift from the moral"},{"startTime":568.21,"endTime":570.24,"body":"to the market sentiment."},{"startTime":570.24,"endTime":573.43,"body":"So if you think about what"},{"startTime":570.24,"endTime":573.43,"body":"drives you to buy things,"},{"startTime":573.43,"endTime":575.163,"body":"what drives you to the market,"},{"startTime":577.42,"endTime":579.49,"body":"it's a thing to bring you up short,"},{"startTime":579.49,"endTime":581.17,"body":"if you're standing in the supermarket,"},{"startTime":581.17,"endTime":583.98,"body":"to really think about why"},{"startTime":581.17,"endTime":583.98,"body":"and what's motivating me"},{"startTime":583.98,"endTime":585.543,"body":"to buy the things that I do."},{"startTime":586.49,"endTime":589.38,"body":"So what I see is that"},{"startTime":586.49,"endTime":589.38,"body":"these are real barriers."},{"startTime":589.38,"endTime":592.92,"body":"And if we're going to create"},{"startTime":589.38,"endTime":592.92,"body":"a better understanding,"},{"startTime":592.92,"endTime":594.28,"body":"we need to, first of all,"},{"startTime":594.28,"endTime":596.27,"body":"explain our dependency on nature,"},{"startTime":596.27,"endTime":597.47,"body":"which is sort of what I've been doing"},{"startTime":597.47,"endTime":599.24,"body":"through a lot of these lectures,"},{"startTime":599.24,"endTime":601.84,"body":"but we also need to take"},{"startTime":599.24,"endTime":601.84,"body":"that all the way through,"},{"startTime":601.84,"endTime":603.91,"body":"into the sentiments that"},{"startTime":601.84,"endTime":603.91,"body":"people take with them"},{"startTime":603.91,"endTime":605.51,"body":"when they go to the supermarket."},{"startTime":606.52,"endTime":607.95,"body":"Now, unfortunately, John Hobson,"},{"startTime":607.95,"endTime":610.51,"body":"he wrote a lovely book"},{"startTime":607.95,"endTime":610.51,"body":"called \"Wealth and Life,\""},{"startTime":610.51,"endTime":612.98,"body":"he was very correct in his analysis"},{"startTime":612.98,"endTime":615.27,"body":"of consumption because what he observed"},{"startTime":615.27,"endTime":617.35,"body":"was that industrial economies have got"},{"startTime":617.35,"endTime":621.51,"body":"just a built-in bias"},{"startTime":617.35,"endTime":621.51,"body":"towards excessive production"},{"startTime":621.51,"endTime":623.09,"body":"and consumption of economic goods."},{"startTime":623.09,"endTime":624.24,"body":"It's how we make our living."},{"startTime":624.24,"endTime":626.01,"body":"It's how we go forward."},{"startTime":626.01,"endTime":628.06,"body":"And a very controversial"},{"startTime":626.01,"endTime":628.06,"body":"book at the beginning"},{"startTime":628.06,"endTime":630.57,"body":"of the 20th century, in the 1920s,"},{"startTime":630.57,"endTime":632.33,"body":"by someone called Richard Tawney,"},{"startTime":632.33,"endTime":636.48,"body":"called \"The Acquisitive"},{"startTime":632.33,"endTime":636.48,"body":"Society,\" goes even further"},{"startTime":636.48,"endTime":638.727,"body":"and essentially says the following."},{"startTime":638.727,"endTime":641.227,"body":"\"What society needs is a purpose,"},{"startTime":641.227,"endTime":644.197,"body":"\"a principle of limitation that divides"},{"startTime":644.197,"endTime":647.577,"body":"\"what is worth doing from what is not."},{"startTime":647.577,"endTime":649.577,"body":"\"And it settles the scale at which"},{"startTime":649.577,"endTime":651.887,"body":"\"what is worth doing ought to be done,"},{"startTime":651.887,"endTime":654.517,"body":"\"and where economic"},{"startTime":651.887,"endTime":654.517,"body":"activity is the servant,"},{"startTime":654.517,"endTime":656.73,"body":"\"and not the master, of society.\""},{"startTime":656.73,"endTime":658.11,"body":"So it's a really lovely book to go"},{"startTime":658.11,"endTime":660.12,"body":"and sort of go and have a look at."},{"startTime":660.12,"endTime":662.05,"body":"And then, of course,"},{"startTime":660.12,"endTime":662.05,"body":"Herman Daly and others"},{"startTime":662.05,"endTime":663.82,"body":"really expounded on this."},{"startTime":663.82,"endTime":665.05,"body":"And they were trying to think about, well,"},{"startTime":665.05,"endTime":666.62,"body":"what's the optimal scale"},{"startTime":666.62,"endTime":669.98,"body":"for an aggregate economy"},{"startTime":666.62,"endTime":669.98,"body":"relative to nature?"},{"startTime":669.98,"endTime":672.187,"body":"And I would contend, sitting as I was,"},{"startTime":672.187,"endTime":674.59,"body":"and I do, in the Rift"},{"startTime":672.187,"endTime":674.59,"body":"Valley with the Maasai,"},{"startTime":674.59,"endTime":675.61,"body":"so that's about right."},{"startTime":675.61,"endTime":677.1,"body":"You've got the right number of people."},{"startTime":677.1,"endTime":678.63,"body":"You've got about 600,000 people"},{"startTime":678.63,"endTime":680.84,"body":"spread over this very large area"},{"startTime":680.84,"endTime":682.91,"body":"who are essentially running an economy"},{"startTime":682.91,"endTime":684.74,"body":"relative to the nature that they can have."},{"startTime":684.74,"endTime":687.01,"body":"Now, that's not something"},{"startTime":684.74,"endTime":687.01,"body":"we can all afford to do,"},{"startTime":687.01,"endTime":689.73,"body":"because we're sort of squished"},{"startTime":687.01,"endTime":689.73,"body":"into these different places,"},{"startTime":689.73,"endTime":692.6,"body":"but that takes some responsibility."},{"startTime":692.6,"endTime":694.15,"body":"If we choose to live in this way,"},{"startTime":694.15,"endTime":696.4,"body":"then we have responsibilities"},{"startTime":694.15,"endTime":696.4,"body":"that come with us,"},{"startTime":696.4,"endTime":699.73,"body":"to take care of nature"},{"startTime":696.4,"endTime":699.73,"body":"that actually supports us."},{"startTime":699.73,"endTime":702.23,"body":"But just to bring it into reality,"},{"startTime":702.23,"endTime":703.91,"body":"the example that really jumped out at me,"},{"startTime":703.91,"endTime":705.43,"body":"looking at these surroundings,"},{"startTime":705.43,"endTime":707.413,"body":"is the modern safari industry."},{"startTime":708.27,"endTime":709.103,"body":"What have they done?"},{"startTime":709.103,"endTime":711.46,"body":"Well, they've actually"},{"startTime":709.103,"endTime":711.46,"body":"captured in your minds"},{"startTime":711.46,"endTime":713.55,"body":"the spectacular landscape,"},{"startTime":713.55,"endTime":716.61,"body":"the abundant wildlife,"},{"startTime":713.55,"endTime":716.61,"body":"into dream holidays,"},{"startTime":716.61,"endTime":718.64,"body":"dream holidays of a lifetime."},{"startTime":718.64,"endTime":720.237,"body":"Somewhere between sort of \"Out of Africa\""},{"startTime":720.237,"endTime":722.56,"body":"and a David Attenborough documentary."},{"startTime":722.56,"endTime":723.7,"body":"You're out there."},{"startTime":723.7,"endTime":726.06,"body":"You land in the light"},{"startTime":723.7,"endTime":726.06,"body":"aircraft in the bush."},{"startTime":726.06,"endTime":727.88,"body":"You're (imitates vibration)"},{"startTime":727.88,"endTime":728.713,"body":"and you come to an end."},{"startTime":728.713,"endTime":729.61,"body":"And then there are elephants"},{"startTime":729.61,"endTime":731.8,"body":"and there are giraffes all around you."},{"startTime":731.8,"endTime":733.77,"body":"And then you go out and you see cheetahs."},{"startTime":733.77,"endTime":736.19,"body":"And at night, you can see"},{"startTime":733.77,"endTime":736.19,"body":"the animals coming in."},{"startTime":736.19,"endTime":738.76,"body":"You live in a luxurious tented camp."},{"startTime":738.76,"endTime":740.63,"body":"You've got signature dishes from chefs"},{"startTime":740.63,"endTime":743.9,"body":"who are flown in, and you"},{"startTime":740.63,"endTime":743.9,"body":"have 24-hour protection"},{"startTime":743.9,"endTime":745.71,"body":"by the Maasai warriors."},{"startTime":745.71,"endTime":748.073,"body":"The price of the dream?"},{"startTime":748.073,"endTime":749.65,"body":"Somewhere between $500 and $5,000"},{"startTime":749.65,"endTime":752.41,"body":"a night, a night."},{"startTime":749.65,"endTime":752.41,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":752.41,"endTime":754.74,"body":"Meanwhile, back in the Maasai community,"},{"startTime":754.74,"endTime":757.13,"body":"the people who are"},{"startTime":754.74,"endTime":757.13,"body":"guarding you, by the way,"},{"startTime":757.13,"endTime":759.84,"body":"is generally an income of"},{"startTime":757.13,"endTime":759.84,"body":"about $50 a month, okay?"},{"startTime":759.84,"endTime":762.13,"body":"So we just kind of get this in proportion."},{"startTime":762.13,"endTime":764.46,"body":"However, were you to ask"},{"startTime":764.46,"endTime":767.48,"body":"the Maasai warrior were they well off,"},{"startTime":767.48,"endTime":768.53,"body":"I mean, how do they feel?"},{"startTime":768.53,"endTime":769.79,"body":"Do they have well-being?"},{"startTime":769.79,"endTime":772.67,"body":"Basically, yeah, because the social norms"},{"startTime":772.67,"endTime":774.56,"body":"and values that they"},{"startTime":772.67,"endTime":774.56,"body":"have means that everyone"},{"startTime":774.56,"endTime":775.62,"body":"has food to eat."},{"startTime":775.62,"endTime":776.74,"body":"They have a place to live in."},{"startTime":776.74,"endTime":778.42,"body":"They've got clothes,"},{"startTime":776.74,"endTime":778.42,"body":"they've got medicines."},{"startTime":778.42,"endTime":781.65,"body":"Children's school fees get"},{"startTime":778.42,"endTime":781.65,"body":"paid, uniforms are found."},{"startTime":781.65,"endTime":784.43,"body":"And so it's really quite"},{"startTime":785.32,"endTime":787.25,"body":"this issue of relativism"},{"startTime":787.25,"endTime":788.793,"body":"around value is important."},{"startTime":789.71,"endTime":792.26,"body":"But it's also very important to recognize"},{"startTime":792.26,"endTime":795.398,"body":"that the reason why there"},{"startTime":792.26,"endTime":795.398,"body":"are wildlife out there"},{"startTime":795.398,"endTime":798.3,"body":"for safaris to happen"},{"startTime":795.398,"endTime":798.3,"body":"is because of the values"},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":801.75,"body":"that the Maasai held in"},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":801.75,"body":"terms of valuing wildlife,"},{"startTime":801.75,"endTime":804.45,"body":"conserving it over hundreds of years,"},{"startTime":804.45,"endTime":806.25,"body":"and only eating the wildlife when they"},{"startTime":806.25,"endTime":808.01,"body":"were starving, literally."},{"startTime":808.01,"endTime":808.843,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":808.843,"endTime":810.01,"body":"They do not eat wildlife."},{"startTime":810.01,"endTime":811.79,"body":"They do not go out and kill it."},{"startTime":811.79,"endTime":814.67,"body":"So essentially, it's"},{"startTime":811.79,"endTime":814.67,"body":"intrinsic to the whole way"},{"startTime":814.67,"endTime":816.16,"body":"that they live in that environment."},{"startTime":816.16,"endTime":819.09,"body":"So questions of social value and fairness"},{"startTime":819.09,"endTime":820.393,"body":"inevitably come up."},{"startTime":821.38,"endTime":823.8,"body":"So in the principles"},{"startTime":821.38,"endTime":823.8,"body":"of natural prosperity,"},{"startTime":823.8,"endTime":825.94,"body":"which I'm sort of trying to articulate"},{"startTime":825.94,"endTime":827.17,"body":"through these lectures,"},{"startTime":827.17,"endTime":829.41,"body":"is that it really requires us"},{"startTime":829.41,"endTime":831.45,"body":"to do much more than tinker at the edges"},{"startTime":831.45,"endTime":833.0,"body":"of today's economic model,"},{"startTime":833.0,"endTime":835.06,"body":"because that's not really going to cut it."},{"startTime":835.06,"endTime":836.9,"body":"We can't just simply add an extra layer"},{"startTime":836.9,"endTime":839.93,"body":"of accounting structures"},{"startTime":836.9,"endTime":839.93,"body":"into the way that we run"},{"startTime":839.93,"endTime":841.1,"body":"the national accounts."},{"startTime":841.1,"endTime":843.07,"body":"We can't just simply have policies"},{"startTime":843.07,"endTime":846.4,"body":"that keep track of the"},{"startTime":843.07,"endTime":846.4,"body":"health of our natural assets,"},{"startTime":846.4,"endTime":848.92,"body":"because it's almost like keeping a ledger"},{"startTime":848.92,"endTime":850.7,"body":"of something that's dying."},{"startTime":850.7,"endTime":852.98,"body":"It's not such a great idea."},{"startTime":852.98,"endTime":855.84,"body":"So we need a profound shift in thinking"},{"startTime":855.84,"endTime":858.73,"body":"and one that's actually about relearning"},{"startTime":858.73,"endTime":861.14,"body":"how nature and how we can value it"},{"startTime":861.14,"endTime":864.32,"body":"in our future economies and societies."},{"startTime":864.32,"endTime":866.62,"body":"So I want to address this topic"},{"startTime":866.62,"endTime":869.31,"body":"of how do we value things universally"},{"startTime":869.31,"endTime":871.73,"body":"and how does nature fit into this?"},{"startTime":871.73,"endTime":873.57,"body":"So I'm going to start, a little bit"},{"startTime":873.57,"endTime":875.18,"body":"of a sort of autobiography."},{"startTime":875.18,"endTime":876.51,"body":"You have to picture the scene."},{"startTime":876.51,"endTime":877.61,"body":"It's 1961."},{"startTime":877.61,"endTime":880.07,"body":"I've just been given a"},{"startTime":877.61,"endTime":880.07,"body":"book for my birthday,"},{"startTime":880.07,"endTime":882.28,"body":"and it's \"Born Free\" by Joy Adamson."},{"startTime":882.28,"endTime":884.68,"body":"And I'm not going to ask how"},{"startTime":882.28,"endTime":884.68,"body":"many people in the audience"},{"startTime":884.68,"endTime":887.41,"body":"remember this book, but"},{"startTime":884.68,"endTime":887.41,"body":"this is actually the book"},{"startTime":887.41,"endTime":888.9,"body":"that I took off my bookshelf."},{"startTime":888.9,"endTime":890.35,"body":"I took a picture of it, okay?"},{"startTime":891.29,"endTime":892.95,"body":"Now, it's a nice story."},{"startTime":892.95,"endTime":894.45,"body":"It's an interesting story."},{"startTime":894.45,"endTime":897.07,"body":"A bit dated, but"},{"startTime":894.45,"endTime":897.07,"body":"nevertheless, very important."},{"startTime":897.07,"endTime":900.09,"body":"So her husband, her"},{"startTime":897.07,"endTime":900.09,"body":"third one, I have to say,"},{"startTime":900.09,"endTime":901.113,"body":"a game warden,"},{"startTime":902.82,"endTime":904.31,"body":"it was in Kenya, in Meru,"},{"startTime":904.31,"endTime":905.81,"body":"was forced to kill a lioness"},{"startTime":905.81,"endTime":907.7,"body":"that attacked him because she was trying"},{"startTime":907.7,"endTime":909.01,"body":"to protect her three cubs."},{"startTime":909.01,"endTime":910.82,"body":"Two of the cubs were sturdy,"},{"startTime":910.82,"endTime":911.99,"body":"and they went off to a zoo."},{"startTime":911.99,"endTime":913.79,"body":"But the third one, a little female"},{"startTime":913.79,"endTime":916.95,"body":"that they called Elsa,"},{"startTime":913.79,"endTime":916.95,"body":"was raised by the couple."},{"startTime":916.95,"endTime":918.41,"body":"And then it was trained"},{"startTime":918.41,"endTime":920.75,"body":"to fend for itself in the wilderness."},{"startTime":920.75,"endTime":923.44,"body":"And the great thing is"},{"startTime":920.75,"endTime":923.44,"body":"that this has been filmed,"},{"startTime":923.44,"endTime":925.41,"body":"but they knew that they'd been successful"},{"startTime":925.41,"endTime":928.22,"body":"when they eventually"},{"startTime":925.41,"endTime":928.22,"body":"left her and found her"},{"startTime":929.51,"endTime":930.68,"body":"having killed a waterbuck."},{"startTime":930.68,"endTime":934.34,"body":"So she's kind of got all of"},{"startTime":930.68,"endTime":934.34,"body":"her natural instincts back in."},{"startTime":934.34,"endTime":936.1,"body":"She had three cubs of her own."},{"startTime":936.1,"endTime":937.377,"body":"And then there were sequels to this,"},{"startTime":937.377,"endTime":939.11,"body":"\"Living Free,\" \"Forever Free.\""},{"startTime":939.11,"endTime":940.8,"body":"The stories went on."},{"startTime":940.8,"endTime":943.04,"body":"And then in early 1961,"},{"startTime":943.04,"endTime":945.76,"body":"unfortunately, the lion, Elsa, she died."},{"startTime":945.76,"endTime":947.711,"body":"And there's actually a grave"},{"startTime":947.711,"endTime":949.42,"body":"in the conservation"},{"startTime":947.711,"endTime":949.42,"body":"area, in the game reserve"},{"startTime":949.42,"endTime":950.93,"body":"where she's been buried."},{"startTime":950.93,"endTime":952.893,"body":"Now, these books were really popular."},{"startTime":954.376,"endTime":956.46,"body":"There were films made of each of them."},{"startTime":956.46,"endTime":959.05,"body":"Some of you might know"},{"startTime":956.46,"endTime":959.05,"body":"the name Virginia McKenna,"},{"startTime":959.05,"endTime":961.04,"body":"she was a famous actress at the time,"},{"startTime":961.04,"endTime":962.51,"body":"and her husband, Bill Travers."},{"startTime":962.51,"endTime":964.77,"body":"And they were so moved by this story"},{"startTime":964.77,"endTime":967.05,"body":"that they set up the Born Free Foundation."},{"startTime":967.05,"endTime":969.79,"body":"And if you fly to Kenya,"},{"startTime":967.05,"endTime":969.79,"body":"you'll often see a little film"},{"startTime":969.79,"endTime":971.173,"body":"to donate money to them."},{"startTime":972.54,"endTime":974.97,"body":"The point about it is not that this came"},{"startTime":974.97,"endTime":977.56,"body":"from a couple and that"},{"startTime":974.97,"endTime":977.56,"body":"there was a very English"},{"startTime":977.56,"endTime":979.0,"body":"and so on and so forth,"},{"startTime":979.0,"endTime":982.6,"body":"but what happened was"},{"startTime":979.0,"endTime":982.6,"body":"this triggered a moment"},{"startTime":982.6,"endTime":984.74,"body":"in the early '60s which led"},{"startTime":984.74,"endTime":986.76,"body":"to incredible inspiration."},{"startTime":986.76,"endTime":988.76,"body":"A man called Iain Douglas-Hamilton"},{"startTime":988.76,"endTime":989.75,"body":"who some of you might know"},{"startTime":989.75,"endTime":992.3,"body":"is a major conservationist,"},{"startTime":992.3,"endTime":993.91,"body":"had produced beautiful paintings"},{"startTime":993.91,"endTime":995.95,"body":"and photographs of elephants."},{"startTime":995.95,"endTime":998.14,"body":"The anthropologist Desmond Morris"},{"startTime":998.14,"endTime":1000.44,"body":"actually credited \"Born"},{"startTime":998.14,"endTime":1000.44,"body":"Free\" with, as he says,"},{"startTime":1000.44,"endTime":1004.65,"body":"affecting a whole generation's"},{"startTime":1000.44,"endTime":1004.65,"body":"attitudes towards animals."},{"startTime":1004.65,"endTime":1007.94,"body":"And six days, six years"},{"startTime":1004.65,"endTime":1007.94,"body":"later, six decades later,"},{"startTime":1007.94,"endTime":1010.61,"body":"you can really see the impact that it had."},{"startTime":1010.61,"endTime":1013.65,"body":"Because as you sit in the Kenyan savanna,"},{"startTime":1013.65,"endTime":1016.44,"body":"you actually understand that what they did"},{"startTime":1016.44,"endTime":1017.99,"body":"has led to the fact that the savanna"},{"startTime":1017.99,"endTime":1020.433,"body":"has got so much wildlife still in it."},{"startTime":1021.38,"endTime":1023.02,"body":"Since then, of course, David Attenborough"},{"startTime":1023.02,"endTime":1025.45,"body":"has taken over that"},{"startTime":1023.02,"endTime":1025.45,"body":"role and has stepped up,"},{"startTime":1025.45,"endTime":1028.39,"body":"opening up huge amounts of"},{"startTime":1025.45,"endTime":1028.39,"body":"understanding on everything."},{"startTime":1028.39,"endTime":1031.2,"body":"I don't know if any of you"},{"startTime":1028.39,"endTime":1031.2,"body":"watched \"The Green Planet,\""},{"startTime":1031.2,"endTime":1032.49,"body":"but it was just phenomenal."},{"startTime":1032.49,"endTime":1035.08,"body":"I mean, talk about noisy fungi"},{"startTime":1035.08,"endTime":1036.5,"body":"just walking around, going around."},{"startTime":1036.5,"endTime":1038.29,"body":"It's quite extraordinary."},{"startTime":1038.29,"endTime":1040.42,"body":"And what he's done is he's got probably"},{"startTime":1040.42,"endTime":1042.58,"body":"the biggest fan club one could imagine."},{"startTime":1042.58,"endTime":1045.51,"body":"Little girls, like this"},{"startTime":1042.58,"endTime":1045.51,"body":"one, do it for David"},{"startTime":1045.51,"endTime":1046.9,"body":"at the COP26."},{"startTime":1046.9,"endTime":1050.13,"body":"I mean, just amazingly inspirational."},{"startTime":1050.13,"endTime":1052.67,"body":"So there's clearly an opportunity here"},{"startTime":1052.67,"endTime":1054.89,"body":"to inspire young people again"},{"startTime":1054.89,"endTime":1056.05,"body":"with what the world means."},{"startTime":1056.05,"endTime":1058.16,"body":"Not just the iconic"},{"startTime":1056.05,"endTime":1058.16,"body":"animals, but everything,"},{"startTime":1058.16,"endTime":1061.32,"body":"from fungi and ants and birds and so on."},{"startTime":1061.32,"endTime":1062.65,"body":"So the question for me"},{"startTime":1062.65,"endTime":1064.97,"body":"is whether this greater understanding"},{"startTime":1064.97,"endTime":1067.31,"body":"and knowledge about sort"},{"startTime":1064.97,"endTime":1067.31,"body":"of the non-human world"},{"startTime":1067.31,"endTime":1070.58,"body":"is going to change people's"},{"startTime":1067.31,"endTime":1070.58,"body":"views about the value"},{"startTime":1070.58,"endTime":1073.08,"body":"of nature in our economies and society."},{"startTime":1073.08,"endTime":1075.1,"body":"'Cause it's all very"},{"startTime":1073.08,"endTime":1075.1,"body":"well to go on a safari,"},{"startTime":1075.1,"endTime":1076.76,"body":"but actually, does it make a difference"},{"startTime":1076.76,"endTime":1078.263,"body":"to how we live every day?"},{"startTime":1079.18,"endTime":1081.86,"body":"So now I want to turn to Glasgow."},{"startTime":1081.86,"endTime":1084.13,"body":"Glasgow of the COP, but now, let's go back"},{"startTime":1084.13,"endTime":1085.5,"body":"to the 18th century."},{"startTime":1085.5,"endTime":1087.44,"body":"Time of the Scottish Enlightenment,"},{"startTime":1087.44,"endTime":1089.75,"body":"Industrial Revolution and home"},{"startTime":1089.75,"endTime":1092.98,"body":"of the father of modern"},{"startTime":1089.75,"endTime":1092.98,"body":"economics, Adam Smith."},{"startTime":1092.98,"endTime":1095.94,"body":"Now, for many, this period"},{"startTime":1092.98,"endTime":1095.94,"body":"is incredibly interesting."},{"startTime":1095.94,"endTime":1097.56,"body":"It's the rise of his best idea,"},{"startTime":1097.56,"endTime":1099.71,"body":"the idea of the invisible hand"},{"startTime":1099.71,"endTime":1102.95,"body":"working through markets"},{"startTime":1099.71,"endTime":1102.95,"body":"to create prosperity."},{"startTime":1102.95,"endTime":1105.17,"body":"Four centuries later, we're sitting there"},{"startTime":1105.17,"endTime":1108.24,"body":"in the COP26, the UN's"},{"startTime":1105.17,"endTime":1108.24,"body":"meeting, as you know,"},{"startTime":1108.24,"endTime":1110.84,"body":"to try and turn what the"},{"startTime":1108.24,"endTime":1110.84,"body":"Industrial Revolution"},{"startTime":1110.84,"endTime":1113.04,"body":"has wrought on the world"},{"startTime":1113.04,"endTime":1114.73,"body":"into the sustainable revolution."},{"startTime":1114.73,"endTime":1116.79,"body":"So no pun intended,"},{"startTime":1116.79,"endTime":1119.43,"body":"but it's taken us 400 years to get there,"},{"startTime":1119.43,"endTime":1121.52,"body":"but here we are, back in the same place."},{"startTime":1121.52,"endTime":1122.97,"body":"Oh, my goodness."},{"startTime":1122.97,"endTime":1125.7,"body":"And what's extraordinary"},{"startTime":1122.97,"endTime":1125.7,"body":"is knowing how Smith"},{"startTime":1125.7,"endTime":1127.74,"body":"originally wrote his works,"},{"startTime":1127.74,"endTime":1129.51,"body":"which was on a moral sentiment,"},{"startTime":1129.51,"endTime":1132.33,"body":"have literally turned"},{"startTime":1129.51,"endTime":1132.33,"body":"into market sentiments."},{"startTime":1132.33,"endTime":1135.2,"body":"So in that period,"},{"startTime":1132.33,"endTime":1135.2,"body":"that's what we have done."},{"startTime":1135.2,"endTime":1138.63,"body":"So society's values have"},{"startTime":1135.2,"endTime":1138.63,"body":"really just become equated"},{"startTime":1138.63,"endTime":1140.07,"body":"with financial value."},{"startTime":1140.07,"endTime":1141.68,"body":"And this is what has contributed"},{"startTime":1141.68,"endTime":1144.41,"body":"to the climate crisis, the COVID crisis,"},{"startTime":1144.41,"endTime":1147.49,"body":"I could say, because it"},{"startTime":1144.41,"endTime":1147.49,"body":"all has hinged on the way"},{"startTime":1147.49,"endTime":1150.68,"body":"in which our concepts"},{"startTime":1147.49,"endTime":1150.68,"body":"of value have altered."},{"startTime":1150.68,"endTime":1152.86,"body":"Now, there are several paradoxes of value,"},{"startTime":1152.86,"endTime":1156.09,"body":"and many, many minds, from Plato to Smith,"},{"startTime":1156.09,"endTime":1158.23,"body":"have considered why, for example, water,"},{"startTime":1158.23,"endTime":1161.09,"body":"which is an essential part of life,"},{"startTime":1161.09,"endTime":1163.39,"body":"is virtually free, while diamonds,"},{"startTime":1163.39,"endTime":1166.12,"body":"which have got very little"},{"startTime":1163.39,"endTime":1166.12,"body":"utility beyond beauty,"},{"startTime":1166.12,"endTime":1169.24,"body":"are as expensive as they are."},{"startTime":1169.24,"endTime":1172.33,"body":"Why do financial markets consider Amazon"},{"startTime":1172.33,"endTime":1175.43,"body":"the most valuable company on planet Earth"},{"startTime":1175.43,"endTime":1178.62,"body":"while the real Amazon appears on no ledger"},{"startTime":1178.62,"endTime":1181.1,"body":"until it's been stripped"},{"startTime":1178.62,"endTime":1181.1,"body":"of all its foliage"},{"startTime":1181.1,"endTime":1182.93,"body":"and converted into farmland?"},{"startTime":1182.93,"endTime":1185.13,"body":"So we have these paradoxes."},{"startTime":1185.13,"endTime":1187.56,"body":"So how can we reconcile, for example,"},{"startTime":1187.56,"endTime":1189.49,"body":"the value of the dedication,"},{"startTime":1189.49,"endTime":1191.58,"body":"the heroism of health workers"},{"startTime":1191.58,"endTime":1193.74,"body":"when we're looking at their low wages"},{"startTime":1193.74,"endTime":1196.83,"body":"and the perilous conditions"},{"startTime":1193.74,"endTime":1196.83,"body":"in which many of them work?"},{"startTime":1196.83,"endTime":1198.56,"body":"So these are all issues"},{"startTime":1198.56,"endTime":1200.823,"body":"of how we get what we value."},{"startTime":1201.7,"endTime":1204.05,"body":"And concepts of value, then,"},{"startTime":1204.05,"endTime":1206.07,"body":"they're rooted in philosophy,"},{"startTime":1206.07,"endTime":1207.75,"body":"but what's happened is they've become"},{"startTime":1207.75,"endTime":1210.56,"body":"much more recently annexed out of it"},{"startTime":1210.56,"endTime":1214.16,"body":"because we've essentially"},{"startTime":1210.56,"endTime":1214.16,"body":"put them into a little box"},{"startTime":1214.16,"endTime":1216.44,"body":"that is somehow outside of economic"},{"startTime":1216.44,"endTime":1217.34,"body":"and financial theory."},{"startTime":1217.34,"endTime":1218.52,"body":"So they kind of sit on their own."},{"startTime":1218.52,"endTime":1220.76,"body":"Oh, it's something that"},{"startTime":1218.52,"endTime":1220.76,"body":"philosophers talk about."},{"startTime":1220.76,"endTime":1223.08,"body":"But actually, it's what we do every day."},{"startTime":1223.08,"endTime":1226.5,"body":"Values represent standards of behavior."},{"startTime":1226.5,"endTime":1228.16,"body":"They're the judgments of what we consider"},{"startTime":1228.16,"endTime":1230.15,"body":"to be important to life, solidarity,"},{"startTime":1230.15,"endTime":1233.38,"body":"humility, sustainability, resilience,"},{"startTime":1233.38,"endTime":1236.62,"body":"dynamism, all the things"},{"startTime":1233.38,"endTime":1236.62,"body":"that we think we value."},{"startTime":1236.62,"endTime":1238.07,"body":"It's the regard"},{"startTime":1238.07,"endTime":1240.09,"body":"that something is held to deserve."},{"startTime":1240.09,"endTime":1243.52,"body":"It's important, its worth, its usefulness."},{"startTime":1243.52,"endTime":1246.2,"body":"But the interesting thing"},{"startTime":1243.52,"endTime":1246.2,"body":"is value isn't constant."},{"startTime":1246.2,"endTime":1249.47,"body":"It's somewhat specific"},{"startTime":1246.2,"endTime":1249.47,"body":"to time and situation."},{"startTime":1249.47,"endTime":1251.79,"body":"So take the value of daily needs"},{"startTime":1251.79,"endTime":1254.19,"body":"during the COVID pandemic."},{"startTime":1254.19,"endTime":1255.58,"body":"Who would have thought that masks"},{"startTime":1255.58,"endTime":1259.203,"body":"would be as valuable as"},{"startTime":1255.58,"endTime":1259.203,"body":"they are today, okay?"},{"startTime":1260.27,"endTime":1261.928,"body":"Now, over the centuries,"},{"startTime":1261.928,"endTime":1263.94,"body":"there have been sort of two"},{"startTime":1261.928,"endTime":1263.94,"body":"broad schools of thought"},{"startTime":1263.94,"endTime":1266.36,"body":"about what determines economic value."},{"startTime":1266.36,"endTime":1268.982,"body":"And so you've got"},{"startTime":1266.36,"endTime":1268.982,"body":"objective and subjective."},{"startTime":1268.982,"endTime":1269.815,"body":"And I'm not going to give you"},{"startTime":1269.815,"endTime":1270.747,"body":"a whole sort of lecture on that."},{"startTime":1270.747,"endTime":1274.06,"body":"You can go to the library"},{"startTime":1270.747,"endTime":1274.06,"body":"and read about things."},{"startTime":1274.06,"endTime":1276.24,"body":"But essentially, the"},{"startTime":1274.06,"endTime":1276.24,"body":"objective value theory,"},{"startTime":1276.24,"endTime":1280.14,"body":"that's Smith, Aristotle,"},{"startTime":1276.24,"endTime":1280.14,"body":"Ricardo, Karl Marx,"},{"startTime":1280.14,"endTime":1281.78,"body":"they lived during a time"},{"startTime":1281.78,"endTime":1283.92,"body":"of unprecedented urbanization,"},{"startTime":1283.92,"endTime":1286.34,"body":"of industrialization and globalization."},{"startTime":1286.34,"endTime":1289.22,"body":"And what they did was"},{"startTime":1286.34,"endTime":1289.22,"body":"they placed the growth"},{"startTime":1289.22,"endTime":1292.27,"body":"and distribution of value"},{"startTime":1289.22,"endTime":1292.27,"body":"squarely in the context"},{"startTime":1292.27,"endTime":1296.05,"body":"of this enormous social"},{"startTime":1292.27,"endTime":1296.05,"body":"and technical change"},{"startTime":1296.05,"endTime":1297.21,"body":"that was going on, okay?"},{"startTime":1297.21,"endTime":1299.78,"body":"So it was very context-specific."},{"startTime":1299.78,"endTime":1301.85,"body":"What they would have found really weird"},{"startTime":1301.85,"endTime":1304.59,"body":"was the way that we now think of economics"},{"startTime":1304.59,"endTime":1307.54,"body":"as some kind of neutral"},{"startTime":1304.59,"endTime":1307.54,"body":"technical discipline,"},{"startTime":1307.54,"endTime":1310.37,"body":"kind of completely devoid"},{"startTime":1307.54,"endTime":1310.37,"body":"of all of those dynamics."},{"startTime":1310.37,"endTime":1311.95,"body":"Something you do, you go to university,"},{"startTime":1311.95,"endTime":1313.44,"body":"you study it and then you go"},{"startTime":1313.44,"endTime":1316.03,"body":"and you kind of access information"},{"startTime":1316.03,"endTime":1318.89,"body":"and you create wealth"},{"startTime":1316.03,"endTime":1318.89,"body":"through, essentially,"},{"startTime":1318.89,"endTime":1320.7,"body":"boxes and so on."},{"startTime":1320.7,"endTime":1323.947,"body":"And yet in his magisterial"},{"startTime":1320.7,"endTime":1323.947,"body":"works, these two,"},{"startTime":1323.947,"endTime":1325.07,"body":"\"The Wealth of Nations\""},{"startTime":1325.07,"endTime":1327.12,"body":"and \"The Theory of Moral Sentiments,\""},{"startTime":1327.12,"endTime":1328.64,"body":"it has unfortunately being the first"},{"startTime":1328.64,"endTime":1330.53,"body":"that has got the most attention."},{"startTime":1330.53,"endTime":1332.41,"body":"It's the thing that's"},{"startTime":1330.53,"endTime":1332.41,"body":"probably been the most bought,"},{"startTime":1332.41,"endTime":1334.083,"body":"but the least read."},{"startTime":1334.083,"endTime":1335.4,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":1335.4,"endTime":1337.677,"body":"But what I see is that when I go into"},{"startTime":1337.677,"endTime":1339.57,"body":"\"The Theory of Moral"},{"startTime":1337.677,"endTime":1339.57,"body":"Sentiments,\" and I went back"},{"startTime":1339.57,"endTime":1342.25,"body":"and checked it, his writings do warn"},{"startTime":1342.25,"endTime":1345.38,"body":"of the mistakes of equating"},{"startTime":1342.25,"endTime":1345.38,"body":"money with capital,"},{"startTime":1345.38,"endTime":1348.03,"body":"and divorcing it from the social partner"},{"startTime":1348.03,"endTime":1349.25,"body":"that generates that."},{"startTime":1349.25,"endTime":1352.04,"body":"So his books are really full"},{"startTime":1352.04,"endTime":1353.85,"body":"of warnings about that."},{"startTime":1353.85,"endTime":1355.53,"body":"And in fact, when we"},{"startTime":1353.85,"endTime":1355.53,"body":"think about Adam Smith"},{"startTime":1355.53,"endTime":1357.44,"body":"being the father of laissez-faire,"},{"startTime":1357.44,"endTime":1360.66,"body":"that's partly true, but he"},{"startTime":1357.44,"endTime":1360.66,"body":"never thought about businesses"},{"startTime":1360.66,"endTime":1363.64,"body":"being transacted without any interference,"},{"startTime":1363.64,"endTime":1367.41,"body":"because he saw it always"},{"startTime":1363.64,"endTime":1367.41,"body":"in that social context."},{"startTime":1367.41,"endTime":1369.81,"body":"So the central idea of Smith's work,"},{"startTime":1369.81,"endTime":1371.76,"body":"which is very important here,"},{"startTime":1371.76,"endTime":1375.2,"body":"is that it's all about"},{"startTime":1371.76,"endTime":1375.2,"body":"continuous exchange,"},{"startTime":1375.2,"endTime":1377.27,"body":"because he saw it as a continuum"},{"startTime":1377.27,"endTime":1379.93,"body":"of human interactions with nature,"},{"startTime":1379.93,"endTime":1382.52,"body":"with each other and with"},{"startTime":1379.93,"endTime":1382.52,"body":"the business of production."},{"startTime":1382.52,"endTime":1385.16,"body":"So exchanges of goods in the market,"},{"startTime":1385.16,"endTime":1387.26,"body":"exchanges of meaning in language,"},{"startTime":1387.26,"endTime":1390.05,"body":"exchanges of regard and esteem."},{"startTime":1390.05,"endTime":1391.96,"body":"These are the kinds of norms that set up"},{"startTime":1391.96,"endTime":1395.07,"body":"the moral and social"},{"startTime":1391.96,"endTime":1395.07,"body":"world in which we lived."},{"startTime":1395.07,"endTime":1396.36,"body":"And what he thought"},{"startTime":1396.36,"endTime":1397.98,"body":"was that these norms"},{"startTime":1397.98,"endTime":1400.81,"body":"were very much about wishing to be loved,"},{"startTime":1400.81,"endTime":1402.78,"body":"to be lovely, well-regarded,"},{"startTime":1402.78,"endTime":1404.16,"body":"to be well thought of."},{"startTime":1404.16,"endTime":1406.11,"body":"And then you get feedback from others"},{"startTime":1406.11,"endTime":1408.6,"body":"as to how they perceive"},{"startTime":1406.11,"endTime":1408.6,"body":"you, how they judge you."},{"startTime":1408.6,"endTime":1410.35,"body":"And then we create incentives"},{"startTime":1410.35,"endTime":1412.1,"body":"that make you want to do more,"},{"startTime":1412.1,"endTime":1415.3,"body":"to create a kind of mutual"},{"startTime":1412.1,"endTime":1415.3,"body":"sympathy about those sentiments."},{"startTime":1415.3,"endTime":1417.64,"body":"And that's how people develop behaviors"},{"startTime":1417.64,"endTime":1420.55,"body":"and that's how they develop their habits."},{"startTime":1420.55,"endTime":1422.57,"body":"So in fact, moral sentiments,"},{"startTime":1422.57,"endTime":1425.91,"body":"they're not inherent,"},{"startTime":1422.57,"endTime":1425.91,"body":"they're like social memes,"},{"startTime":1425.91,"endTime":1427.81,"body":"like Richard Dawkins has called them."},{"startTime":1427.81,"endTime":1430.21,"body":"And what that means is"},{"startTime":1427.81,"endTime":1430.21,"body":"that they can be learned,"},{"startTime":1430.21,"endTime":1433.39,"body":"they can be imitated and"},{"startTime":1430.21,"endTime":1433.39,"body":"they can be passed on."},{"startTime":1433.39,"endTime":1436.39,"body":"Just like genetic means, they can mutate,"},{"startTime":1436.39,"endTime":1438.76,"body":"they can go through sort of cascades"},{"startTime":1438.76,"endTime":1440.34,"body":"and tipping points."},{"startTime":1440.34,"endTime":1441.94,"body":"And that's really"},{"startTime":1440.34,"endTime":1441.94,"body":"important because it means"},{"startTime":1441.94,"endTime":1445.77,"body":"that we can learn about moral sentiment."},{"startTime":1445.77,"endTime":1447.473,"body":"We can take that back on again."},{"startTime":1448.496,"endTime":1450.08,"body":"We can bring it back into the core"},{"startTime":1450.08,"endTime":1451.35,"body":"and center of our life."},{"startTime":1451.35,"endTime":1454.44,"body":"And if we make universal value of nature"},{"startTime":1454.44,"endTime":1456.43,"body":"something that we want to learn"},{"startTime":1456.43,"endTime":1458.07,"body":"and take into our lives,"},{"startTime":1458.07,"endTime":1459.933,"body":"then we can certainly do that."},{"startTime":1460.93,"endTime":1462.653,"body":"So in a way,"},{"startTime":1463.66,"endTime":1465.64,"body":"I think that all of the economists"},{"startTime":1465.64,"endTime":1469.53,"body":"have talked very much"},{"startTime":1465.64,"endTime":1469.53,"body":"in the broadest sense"},{"startTime":1469.53,"endTime":1472.07,"body":"of how, from their social perspective,"},{"startTime":1472.07,"endTime":1473.78,"body":"markets can operate."},{"startTime":1473.78,"endTime":1475.81,"body":"But in the early 20th century,"},{"startTime":1475.81,"endTime":1477.96,"body":"a group of sort of neoclassicists,"},{"startTime":1477.96,"endTime":1481.67,"body":"they completely launched"},{"startTime":1477.96,"endTime":1481.67,"body":"an upheaval in value,"},{"startTime":1481.67,"endTime":1483.45,"body":"which was like Copernicus"},{"startTime":1483.45,"endTime":1485.523,"body":"changing where the positions"},{"startTime":1483.45,"endTime":1485.523,"body":"of the planets were,"},{"startTime":1485.523,"endTime":1489.12,"body":"then putting sun at the center,"},{"startTime":1485.523,"endTime":1489.12,"body":"and Earth outside of that."},{"startTime":1489.12,"endTime":1490.81,"body":"Because what the economists did"},{"startTime":1490.81,"endTime":1493.62,"body":"was they shifted the axis of value theory"},{"startTime":1493.62,"endTime":1495.13,"body":"and the factors of production,"},{"startTime":1495.13,"endTime":1498.97,"body":"labor and so on, to the"},{"startTime":1495.13,"endTime":1498.97,"body":"perceived value of goods"},{"startTime":1498.97,"endTime":1502.73,"body":"to the consumer, from"},{"startTime":1498.97,"endTime":1502.73,"body":"objective to subjective."},{"startTime":1502.73,"endTime":1504.35,"body":"Now, according to the new group,"},{"startTime":1504.35,"endTime":1506.27,"body":"people valued goods that satisfy"},{"startTime":1506.27,"endTime":1508.11,"body":"their specific wants."},{"startTime":1508.11,"endTime":1510.6,"body":"So it's only because"},{"startTime":1508.11,"endTime":1510.6,"body":"people value the goods"},{"startTime":1510.6,"endTime":1512.68,"body":"that the inputs are what is valued."},{"startTime":1512.68,"endTime":1514.28,"body":"So value is in the eye of the beholder,"},{"startTime":1514.28,"endTime":1516.883,"body":"not in the sweat of the"},{"startTime":1514.28,"endTime":1516.883,"body":"laborer, as we would say."},{"startTime":1517.79,"endTime":1520.68,"body":"And since then, subjective value theory"},{"startTime":1520.68,"endTime":1521.9,"body":"has gone mainstream."},{"startTime":1521.9,"endTime":1525.56,"body":"Basically, the combination"},{"startTime":1521.9,"endTime":1525.56,"body":"of subjective value theory,"},{"startTime":1525.56,"endTime":1528.03,"body":"where price equals value,"},{"startTime":1528.03,"endTime":1529.68,"body":"and there's a kind of"},{"startTime":1528.03,"endTime":1529.68,"body":"cursory understanding"},{"startTime":1529.68,"endTime":1531.07,"body":"of what's gone into it,"},{"startTime":1531.07,"endTime":1532.75,"body":"yields the optimal outcomes"},{"startTime":1532.75,"endTime":1535.16,"body":"supported by this kind of unseen,"},{"startTime":1535.16,"endTime":1537.52,"body":"unchanging moral sentiment."},{"startTime":1537.52,"endTime":1540.47,"body":"And what this does is it promotes the view"},{"startTime":1540.47,"endTime":1543.89,"body":"that all market outcomes"},{"startTime":1540.47,"endTime":1543.89,"body":"equal value creation,"},{"startTime":1543.89,"endTime":1546.53,"body":"and that through them,"},{"startTime":1543.89,"endTime":1546.53,"body":"the growth of the wealth"},{"startTime":1546.53,"endTime":1548.22,"body":"and the welfare of nations."},{"startTime":1548.22,"endTime":1549.92,"body":"So you can see where"},{"startTime":1548.22,"endTime":1549.92,"body":"we're going with this."},{"startTime":1549.92,"endTime":1552.62,"body":"That if you haven't even got"},{"startTime":1549.92,"endTime":1552.62,"body":"nature on the first step,"},{"startTime":1553.74,"endTime":1555.24,"body":"it's never going to make it all the way up"},{"startTime":1555.24,"endTime":1557.17,"body":"to something that's going to be valued"},{"startTime":1557.17,"endTime":1559.27,"body":"because there's a sort of disconnect"},{"startTime":1559.27,"endTime":1561.45,"body":"because people haven't"},{"startTime":1559.27,"endTime":1561.45,"body":"understood really why"},{"startTime":1561.45,"endTime":1564.06,"body":"they should value it in the first place."},{"startTime":1564.06,"endTime":1567.29,"body":"So the concept of value"},{"startTime":1564.06,"endTime":1567.29,"body":"synonymous with economic theory"},{"startTime":1567.29,"endTime":1570.37,"body":"a century ago just isn't discussed."},{"startTime":1570.37,"endTime":1573.33,"body":"So we're in a bit of a dilemma because"},{"startTime":1573.33,"endTime":1575.57,"body":"with all that's gone on in the world"},{"startTime":1575.57,"endTime":1578.46,"body":"in the past decade, the financial crisis,"},{"startTime":1578.46,"endTime":1581.25,"body":"increasing levels of risk"},{"startTime":1578.46,"endTime":1581.25,"body":"from the loss of nature,"},{"startTime":1581.25,"endTime":1584.77,"body":"now climate change, the"},{"startTime":1581.25,"endTime":1584.77,"body":"effects of the pandemic,"},{"startTime":1584.77,"endTime":1586.95,"body":"we really do need a debate on value."},{"startTime":1586.95,"endTime":1588.9,"body":"I think that's the whole point."},{"startTime":1588.9,"endTime":1591.57,"body":"So we need to consider"},{"startTime":1588.9,"endTime":1591.57,"body":"what is the right balance"},{"startTime":1591.57,"endTime":1593.83,"body":"between markets and the"},{"startTime":1591.57,"endTime":1593.83,"body":"state and the natural world."},{"startTime":1593.83,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"We need to go beyond what"},{"startTime":1593.83,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"Mariana Mazzucato talks about"},{"startTime":1597.04,"endTime":1598.82,"body":"in \"The Value of Everything.\""},{"startTime":1598.82,"endTime":1601.9,"body":"So just think about how"},{"startTime":1598.82,"endTime":1601.9,"body":"the world has shifted."},{"startTime":1601.9,"endTime":1605.0,"body":"The market has become the"},{"startTime":1601.9,"endTime":1605.0,"body":"kind of organizing framework"},{"startTime":1605.0,"endTime":1607.02,"body":"for our economies."},{"startTime":1607.02,"endTime":1610.3,"body":"In fact, it's even become"},{"startTime":1607.02,"endTime":1610.3,"body":"the organizing framework"},{"startTime":1610.3,"endTime":1612.78,"body":"for broader human relations."},{"startTime":1612.78,"endTime":1614.49,"body":"It goes right into civic life."},{"startTime":1614.49,"endTime":1616.293,"body":"It goes right into family life."},{"startTime":1617.16,"endTime":1618.44,"body":"And in a sense,"},{"startTime":1618.44,"endTime":1621.19,"body":"social constraints on unbridled capitalism"},{"startTime":1621.19,"endTime":1622.18,"body":"have just lessened."},{"startTime":1622.18,"endTime":1624.07,"body":"They've just gone away."},{"startTime":1624.07,"endTime":1626.57,"body":"So the Thatcher-Reagan"},{"startTime":1624.07,"endTime":1626.57,"body":"revolution shifted it."},{"startTime":1626.57,"endTime":1629.27,"body":"And that dynamic, which at the time"},{"startTime":1629.27,"endTime":1630.63,"body":"was probably needed,"},{"startTime":1630.63,"endTime":1632.87,"body":"has essentially unleashed a dynamism,"},{"startTime":1632.87,"endTime":1634.48,"body":"which meant that we've gone to the point"},{"startTime":1634.48,"endTime":1637.4,"body":"where policymakers just had to sit back"},{"startTime":1637.4,"endTime":1639.21,"body":"and listen and learn because the market"},{"startTime":1639.21,"endTime":1641.457,"body":"was always right, okay?"},{"startTime":1641.457,"endTime":1643.16,"body":"And I know lots of policymakers"},{"startTime":1643.16,"endTime":1644.33,"body":"who (laughs) literally felt"},{"startTime":1644.33,"endTime":1646.67,"body":"that their inputs were not required."},{"startTime":1646.67,"endTime":1647.763,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":1648.88,"endTime":1652.02,"body":"But the problem is if"},{"startTime":1648.88,"endTime":1652.02,"body":"you grant infinite wisdom"},{"startTime":1652.02,"endTime":1653.94,"body":"to an entity,"},{"startTime":1653.94,"endTime":1656.44,"body":"you kind of enter into the realm of faith,"},{"startTime":1656.44,"endTime":1659.03,"body":"and faith can guide life,"},{"startTime":1659.03,"endTime":1660.44,"body":"but it can blind policy."},{"startTime":1660.44,"endTime":1663.43,"body":"And this is a genuine issue for me"},{"startTime":1663.43,"endTime":1666.17,"body":"because it's a cognitive capture"},{"startTime":1666.17,"endTime":1669.32,"body":"that's led to a kind of"},{"startTime":1666.17,"endTime":1669.32,"body":"self-cancellation of the policy"},{"startTime":1669.32,"endTime":1671.24,"body":"or any of our judgments"},{"startTime":1671.24,"endTime":1673.37,"body":"because only the market knows."},{"startTime":1673.37,"endTime":1674.92,"body":"And because of that,"},{"startTime":1674.92,"endTime":1678.29,"body":"the trust dictates that only solutions"},{"startTime":1678.29,"endTime":1681.61,"body":"to market failure are"},{"startTime":1678.29,"endTime":1681.61,"body":"going to add more markets."},{"startTime":1681.61,"endTime":1684.93,"body":"We're just going to continue"},{"startTime":1681.61,"endTime":1684.93,"body":"to take regulation out,"},{"startTime":1684.93,"endTime":1687.563,"body":"and just keep on pushing"},{"startTime":1684.93,"endTime":1687.563,"body":"what the market is seeing."},{"startTime":1689.03,"endTime":1692.54,"body":"So what kind of risks do this bring?"},{"startTime":1692.54,"endTime":1694.24,"body":"And this is really the heart of it."},{"startTime":1694.24,"endTime":1695.95,"body":"Why do we need to think about values?"},{"startTime":1695.95,"endTime":1697.89,"body":"Well, because the risks"},{"startTime":1695.95,"endTime":1697.89,"body":"that are coming our way,"},{"startTime":1697.89,"endTime":1699.31,"body":"and have already come our way,"},{"startTime":1699.31,"endTime":1701.32,"body":"are pretty scary."},{"startTime":1701.32,"endTime":1705.06,"body":"Because what social value theory tells us"},{"startTime":1705.06,"endTime":1708.5,"body":"is that the world is"},{"startTime":1705.06,"endTime":1708.5,"body":"made of an idealized set"},{"startTime":1708.5,"endTime":1711.23,"body":"of competition, of commodity goods,"},{"startTime":1711.23,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"lots of things rationally"},{"startTime":1711.23,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"happening in the marketplace."},{"startTime":1713.93,"endTime":1716.73,"body":"And when those assumptions don't hold,"},{"startTime":1716.73,"endTime":1718.82,"body":"there's a whole wedge"},{"startTime":1716.73,"endTime":1718.82,"body":"driven between social"},{"startTime":1718.82,"endTime":1720.21,"body":"and private value."},{"startTime":1720.21,"endTime":1723.88,"body":"So let's say if a few"},{"startTime":1720.21,"endTime":1723.88,"body":"companies control the market,"},{"startTime":1723.88,"endTime":1727.063,"body":"Microsoft, Amazon, some"},{"startTime":1723.88,"endTime":1727.063,"body":"of these big companies,"},{"startTime":1728.33,"endTime":1730.55,"body":"sometimes the prices go too high"},{"startTime":1730.55,"endTime":1732.38,"body":"or production is too low."},{"startTime":1732.38,"endTime":1733.8,"body":"If the markets are incomplete"},{"startTime":1733.8,"endTime":1736.14,"body":"or suddenly lose resilience and collapse,"},{"startTime":1736.14,"endTime":1739.47,"body":"small shocks can lead to"},{"startTime":1736.14,"endTime":1739.47,"body":"changes in asset prices,"},{"startTime":1739.47,"endTime":1742.1,"body":"loss of jobs, loss of welfare."},{"startTime":1742.1,"endTime":1743.98,"body":"So there's a whole variety of things"},{"startTime":1743.98,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"that get distorted when"},{"startTime":1743.98,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"we go down this road."},{"startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1749.38,"body":"And then there's another risk,"},{"startTime":1749.38,"endTime":1752.63,"body":"which is about the human"},{"startTime":1749.38,"endTime":1752.63,"body":"frailty of decision-making."},{"startTime":1752.63,"endTime":1753.463,"body":"Pretty much all of us think"},{"startTime":1753.463,"endTime":1755.16,"body":"that we're the best decision makers ever,"},{"startTime":1755.16,"endTime":1757.57,"body":"very rational, relying on past behaviors."},{"startTime":1757.57,"endTime":1759.33,"body":"Yes, it's worked before."},{"startTime":1759.33,"endTime":1761.3,"body":"Even if new information"},{"startTime":1759.33,"endTime":1761.3,"body":"comes in that tells us"},{"startTime":1761.3,"endTime":1763.0,"body":"we're wrong, no, no, we keep on going."},{"startTime":1763.0,"endTime":1764.12,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1764.12,"endTime":1766.37,"body":"And we keep thinking that"},{"startTime":1764.12,"endTime":1766.37,"body":"examples of what we're doing"},{"startTime":1766.37,"endTime":1768.49,"body":"are more common than they are."},{"startTime":1768.49,"endTime":1770.43,"body":"Definitely check that one."},{"startTime":1770.43,"endTime":1773.99,"body":"So you get to the point where we have"},{"startTime":1773.99,"endTime":1776.98,"body":"a situation where water in"},{"startTime":1773.99,"endTime":1776.98,"body":"the desert is essential."},{"startTime":1776.98,"endTime":1780.32,"body":"Respirators in a COVID wing"},{"startTime":1776.98,"endTime":1780.32,"body":"are absolutely critical."},{"startTime":1780.32,"endTime":1783.0,"body":"But if we value the present"},{"startTime":1780.32,"endTime":1783.0,"body":"more than the future,"},{"startTime":1783.0,"endTime":1784.01,"body":"then we're not going to make"},{"startTime":1784.01,"endTime":1786.41,"body":"the right investments going forward."},{"startTime":1786.41,"endTime":1789.26,"body":"So despite climate change telling us"},{"startTime":1789.26,"endTime":1790.9,"body":"that what is happening today,"},{"startTime":1790.9,"endTime":1792.87,"body":"we didn't invest enough."},{"startTime":1792.87,"endTime":1795.21,"body":"Despite knowing about zoonosis,"},{"startTime":1795.21,"endTime":1796.85,"body":"we did not invest enough."},{"startTime":1796.85,"endTime":1798.7,"body":"We still chopped down the rainforest."},{"startTime":1798.7,"endTime":1801.45,"body":"We still brought ourselves"},{"startTime":1798.7,"endTime":1801.45,"body":"closer and closer"},{"startTime":1801.45,"endTime":1803.24,"body":"to pools of disease."},{"startTime":1803.24,"endTime":1805.52,"body":"And all of these kinds of tragedies"},{"startTime":1805.52,"endTime":1807.17,"body":"are not going to be fixed"},{"startTime":1807.17,"endTime":1810.4,"body":"by just taking the market"},{"startTime":1807.17,"endTime":1810.4,"body":"imperfections alone."},{"startTime":1810.4,"endTime":1813.17,"body":"We have to go much deeper than that."},{"startTime":1813.17,"endTime":1814.55,"body":"And then the third"},{"startTime":1814.55,"endTime":1817.68,"body":"is a kind of drift from moral"},{"startTime":1817.68,"endTime":1819.42,"body":"to market sentiments."},{"startTime":1819.42,"endTime":1820.87,"body":"And what is happening, then,"},{"startTime":1820.87,"endTime":1824.823,"body":"is that these are"},{"startTime":1820.87,"endTime":1824.823,"body":"corroding society's values."},{"startTime":1825.99,"endTime":1828.84,"body":"So the foundations of our society"},{"startTime":1828.84,"endTime":1830.37,"body":"are really being eaten away"},{"startTime":1830.37,"endTime":1832.77,"body":"because of the pricing of goods,"},{"startTime":1832.77,"endTime":1834.97,"body":"of services, of civic virtues."},{"startTime":1834.97,"endTime":1837.45,"body":"They've been traditionally"},{"startTime":1834.97,"endTime":1837.45,"body":"outside the market,"},{"startTime":1837.45,"endTime":1838.49,"body":"and now they're inside."},{"startTime":1838.49,"endTime":1840.88,"body":"And the flattening of the"},{"startTime":1838.49,"endTime":1840.88,"body":"market means that this"},{"startTime":1840.88,"endTime":1843.17,"body":"is going to be carried on into the future."},{"startTime":1843.17,"endTime":1847.12,"body":"So it's going to affect"},{"startTime":1843.17,"endTime":1847.12,"body":"the future generations."},{"startTime":1847.12,"endTime":1848.43,"body":"How do we rectify it?"},{"startTime":1848.43,"endTime":1850.43,"body":"Well, we need the right"},{"startTime":1848.43,"endTime":1850.43,"body":"kind of institutions."},{"startTime":1850.43,"endTime":1852.9,"body":"We need institutions"},{"startTime":1850.43,"endTime":1852.9,"body":"that support the culture,"},{"startTime":1852.9,"endTime":1855.85,"body":"the maintenance of a"},{"startTime":1852.9,"endTime":1855.85,"body":"kind of social license,"},{"startTime":1855.85,"endTime":1857.98,"body":"which has got values of trust,"},{"startTime":1857.98,"endTime":1861.2,"body":"ethical customs, integrity and fairness."},{"startTime":1861.2,"endTime":1863.77,"body":"These are really critical to a market"},{"startTime":1863.77,"endTime":1865.81,"body":"that's functioning with moral sentiment,"},{"startTime":1865.81,"endTime":1868.02,"body":"not just market sentiment,"},{"startTime":1868.02,"endTime":1870.72,"body":"but a lot of these values"},{"startTime":1868.02,"endTime":1870.72,"body":"have been taken for granted."},{"startTime":1871.83,"endTime":1872.85,"body":"Just think about it,"},{"startTime":1872.85,"endTime":1874.18,"body":"everything you do every day,"},{"startTime":1874.18,"endTime":1876.04,"body":"do you have a moral"},{"startTime":1874.18,"endTime":1876.04,"body":"discussion with yourself?"},{"startTime":1876.04,"endTime":1877.88,"body":"No, probably not."},{"startTime":1877.88,"endTime":1878.87,"body":"But you could do."},{"startTime":1878.87,"endTime":1880.397,"body":"You could (laughs) wake"},{"startTime":1878.87,"endTime":1880.397,"body":"up in the morning and say,"},{"startTime":1880.397,"endTime":1882.507,"body":"\"Right, okay, why is this happening?\""},{"startTime":1883.68,"endTime":1885.37,"body":"'Cause these rules come from somewhere."},{"startTime":1885.37,"endTime":1888.35,"body":"They have been set down, not in stone,"},{"startTime":1888.35,"endTime":1890.4,"body":"and people have studied them,"},{"startTime":1890.4,"endTime":1891.7,"body":"Hayek and others believe"},{"startTime":1891.7,"endTime":1893.49,"body":"that they're partly inherited."},{"startTime":1893.49,"endTime":1895.15,"body":"But as I told you at the beginning,"},{"startTime":1895.15,"endTime":1897.46,"body":"these can mutate, they can change,"},{"startTime":1897.46,"endTime":1899.59,"body":"and simple reflection can alter"},{"startTime":1899.59,"endTime":1901.47,"body":"the way that we view it."},{"startTime":1901.47,"endTime":1903.87,"body":"And one area that's very important"},{"startTime":1903.87,"endTime":1906.99,"body":"is the emphasis of the individual"},{"startTime":1906.99,"endTime":1908.75,"body":"over the community."},{"startTime":1908.75,"endTime":1910.55,"body":"In other words, our selfish traits"},{"startTime":1910.55,"endTime":1912.75,"body":"over altruistic ones is very important"},{"startTime":1912.75,"endTime":1916.39,"body":"because what happens is that this imperils"},{"startTime":1916.39,"endTime":1919.45,"body":"both the market's effectiveness"},{"startTime":1916.39,"endTime":1919.45,"body":"in determining value"},{"startTime":1919.45,"endTime":1922.41,"body":"and ultimately society's"},{"startTime":1919.45,"endTime":1922.41,"body":"values themselves."},{"startTime":1922.41,"endTime":1924.28,"body":"So if we continue to move"},{"startTime":1924.28,"endTime":1927.57,"body":"to a market society,"},{"startTime":1924.28,"endTime":1927.57,"body":"we may actually consume"},{"startTime":1927.57,"endTime":1930.95,"body":"the very social capital"},{"startTime":1927.57,"endTime":1930.95,"body":"necessary to maintain"},{"startTime":1930.95,"endTime":1933.35,"body":"our natural assets and create a kind"},{"startTime":1933.35,"endTime":1936.9,"body":"of economic desert in the future,"},{"startTime":1936.9,"endTime":1939.97,"body":"of both human capital and social capital."},{"startTime":1939.97,"endTime":1942.05,"body":"So if we keep eating away at it."},{"startTime":1942.05,"endTime":1943.33,"body":"Now these ladies are wonderful."},{"startTime":1943.33,"endTime":1945.15,"body":"They're my Maori friends."},{"startTime":1945.15,"endTime":1947.94,"body":"And they have a strong sense of community"},{"startTime":1947.94,"endTime":1949.83,"body":"and of altruism."},{"startTime":1949.83,"endTime":1951.12,"body":"And they realize"},{"startTime":1951.12,"endTime":1955.27,"body":"that that's imperative to"},{"startTime":1951.12,"endTime":1955.27,"body":"go forward in that way."},{"startTime":1955.27,"endTime":1957.69,"body":"Because by having social capital"},{"startTime":1957.69,"endTime":1959.5,"body":"with deep moral values,"},{"startTime":1959.5,"endTime":1962.24,"body":"they can really bring ethical customs"},{"startTime":1962.24,"endTime":1964.01,"body":"into the fore."},{"startTime":1964.01,"endTime":1966.5,"body":"But when they compare"},{"startTime":1964.01,"endTime":1966.5,"body":"themselves with others"},{"startTime":1966.5,"endTime":1968.61,"body":"in the South Pacific and other region,"},{"startTime":1968.61,"endTime":1970.91,"body":"they can see that it's being corroded."},{"startTime":1970.91,"endTime":1972.7,"body":"And you can go to a lot"},{"startTime":1970.91,"endTime":1972.7,"body":"of the Pacific islands"},{"startTime":1972.7,"endTime":1976.1,"body":"and see that that kind"},{"startTime":1972.7,"endTime":1976.1,"body":"of cultural attachment,"},{"startTime":1976.1,"endTime":1978.3,"body":"both to the community and to nature,"},{"startTime":1978.3,"endTime":1979.223,"body":"has gone away."},{"startTime":1980.69,"endTime":1982.07,"body":"If we lose it, we end up"},{"startTime":1982.07,"endTime":1984.603,"body":"with companies with greenwashing,"},{"startTime":1985.68,"endTime":1989.67,"body":"with social ESG washing, all right?"},{"startTime":1989.67,"endTime":1992.4,"body":"In other words, they make"},{"startTime":1989.67,"endTime":1992.4,"body":"it all look very good,"},{"startTime":1992.4,"endTime":1995.34,"body":"but it could be very hypocritical because,"},{"startTime":1995.34,"endTime":1999.58,"body":"in fact, it's just perhaps"},{"startTime":1995.34,"endTime":1999.58,"body":"an attraction for employment."},{"startTime":1999.58,"endTime":2001.32,"body":"You know, we do it this way."},{"startTime":2001.32,"endTime":2003.24,"body":"Come and join us in our company."},{"startTime":2003.24,"endTime":2006.09,"body":"But at the end, it's"},{"startTime":2003.24,"endTime":2006.09,"body":"about increasing profits."},{"startTime":2006.09,"endTime":2008.653,"body":"This is how insidious corrosion can be."},{"startTime":2009.71,"endTime":2011.25,"body":"The spread of market mechanisms"},{"startTime":2011.25,"endTime":2013.75,"body":"can also corrode our values."},{"startTime":2013.75,"endTime":2015.72,"body":"So we're really moving into something"},{"startTime":2015.72,"endTime":2017.4,"body":"which is based on wealth,"},{"startTime":2017.4,"endTime":2019.23,"body":"the statusphere, in other words."},{"startTime":2019.23,"endTime":2021.13,"body":"So it's built on money."},{"startTime":2021.13,"endTime":2022.34,"body":"Now, that's not a bad thing."},{"startTime":2022.34,"endTime":2025.8,"body":"The logic of buying and"},{"startTime":2022.34,"endTime":2025.8,"body":"selling is very good,"},{"startTime":2025.8,"endTime":2027.63,"body":"but the problem is it no longer"},{"startTime":2027.63,"endTime":2029.96,"body":"is restricted just to material goods,"},{"startTime":2029.96,"endTime":2031.63,"body":"but it governs everything that we do."},{"startTime":2031.63,"endTime":2034.27,"body":"The allocation of healthcare, education,"},{"startTime":2034.27,"endTime":2037.22,"body":"conservation, environmental protection."},{"startTime":2037.22,"endTime":2040.43,"body":"And so effectively,"},{"startTime":2037.22,"endTime":2040.43,"body":"standard economic reasoning"},{"startTime":2040.43,"endTime":2042.47,"body":"is that the spread of market exchanges"},{"startTime":2042.47,"endTime":2046.0,"body":"should increase efficiency"},{"startTime":2042.47,"endTime":2046.0,"body":"without moral cost."},{"startTime":2046.0,"endTime":2049.49,"body":"But when everything is"},{"startTime":2046.0,"endTime":2049.49,"body":"relative, is anything immutable?"},{"startTime":2049.49,"endTime":2051.453,"body":"And that's really the problem."},{"startTime":2052.31,"endTime":2054.01,"body":"So there are many philosophers"},{"startTime":2054.01,"endTime":2056.21,"body":"who talk about market values"},{"startTime":2056.21,"endTime":2059.62,"body":"going into places where previously"},{"startTime":2059.62,"endTime":2061.73,"body":"they weren't governed by market norms."},{"startTime":2061.73,"endTime":2064.07,"body":"So not only environmental protection,"},{"startTime":2064.07,"endTime":2067.68,"body":"but also protecting the"},{"startTime":2064.07,"endTime":2067.68,"body":"non-human species themselves."},{"startTime":2067.68,"endTime":2069.57,"body":"And there's a lot of evidence"},{"startTime":2069.57,"endTime":2072.3,"body":"that suggests this commodification."},{"startTime":2072.3,"endTime":2073.81,"body":"Remember the safaris."},{"startTime":2073.81,"endTime":2075.5,"body":"It can corrode the activity"},{"startTime":2075.5,"endTime":2077.56,"body":"that's actually being priced."},{"startTime":2077.56,"endTime":2080.5,"body":"So money crowds out civic norms."},{"startTime":2080.5,"endTime":2082.65,"body":"And in a way, the moral error"},{"startTime":2082.65,"endTime":2085.48,"body":"of a lot of economists, I think, anyway,"},{"startTime":2085.48,"endTime":2088.23,"body":"is to sort of treat"},{"startTime":2085.48,"endTime":2088.23,"body":"civic and social virtues"},{"startTime":2088.23,"endTime":2090.24,"body":"as if they're scarce commodities."},{"startTime":2090.24,"endTime":2091.073,"body":"Well, they're not."},{"startTime":2091.073,"endTime":2093.57,"body":"We've got 7 1/2 billion"},{"startTime":2091.073,"endTime":2093.57,"body":"people on planet Earth."},{"startTime":2093.57,"endTime":2095.68,"body":"And if everyone decided that nature"},{"startTime":2096.53,"endTime":2098.203,"body":"should have a universal value,"},{"startTime":2099.35,"endTime":2102.1,"body":"that would completely"},{"startTime":2099.35,"endTime":2102.1,"body":"change that equation."},{"startTime":2102.1,"endTime":2103.89,"body":"Now, we saw it during COVID"},{"startTime":2103.89,"endTime":2105.59,"body":"because we got solidarity."},{"startTime":2105.59,"endTime":2108.19,"body":"Suddenly, there was a solidarity."},{"startTime":2108.19,"endTime":2109.28,"body":"People woke up."},{"startTime":2109.28,"endTime":2110.27,"body":"It mattered."},{"startTime":2110.27,"endTime":2113.42,"body":"It mattered what your"},{"startTime":2110.27,"endTime":2113.42,"body":"neighbor was experiencing."},{"startTime":2113.42,"endTime":2115.24,"body":"It mattered what was"},{"startTime":2113.42,"endTime":2115.24,"body":"happening down the road."},{"startTime":2115.24,"endTime":2117.24,"body":"You got out, you went"},{"startTime":2115.24,"endTime":2117.24,"body":"and got their shopping."},{"startTime":2117.24,"endTime":2119.31,"body":"You did things for people."},{"startTime":2119.31,"endTime":2121.2,"body":"So we know that it can happen,"},{"startTime":2121.2,"endTime":2123.26,"body":"and virtue grows with practice."},{"startTime":2123.26,"endTime":2126.723,"body":"So what would be the"},{"startTime":2123.26,"endTime":2126.723,"body":"nature equivalent of COVID?"},{"startTime":2128.0,"endTime":2129.52,"body":"I don't know what the answer is,"},{"startTime":2129.52,"endTime":2132.01,"body":"but what I'm saying is"},{"startTime":2129.52,"endTime":2132.01,"body":"that's the kind of thing"},{"startTime":2132.01,"endTime":2135.223,"body":"that one needs to do,"},{"startTime":2132.01,"endTime":2135.223,"body":"is to think in that way."},{"startTime":2136.25,"endTime":2138.99,"body":"And if we flatten market values,"},{"startTime":2138.99,"endTime":2141.64,"body":"then what we see is that"},{"startTime":2138.99,"endTime":2141.64,"body":"welfare is just the sum"},{"startTime":2141.64,"endTime":2143.18,"body":"of everything all stuck together,"},{"startTime":2143.18,"endTime":2145.68,"body":"and it doesn't allow"},{"startTime":2143.18,"endTime":2145.68,"body":"you to have intelligence"},{"startTime":2145.68,"endTime":2149.03,"body":"about what is really vital to our survival"},{"startTime":2149.03,"endTime":2151.263,"body":"and what is sort of nice to have."},{"startTime":2152.15,"endTime":2152.983,"body":"And what it does"},{"startTime":2152.983,"endTime":2155.91,"body":"is it really affects people's perceptions,"},{"startTime":2155.91,"endTime":2158.12,"body":"both of the future and of today."},{"startTime":2158.12,"endTime":2160.41,"body":"So we need a greater"},{"startTime":2158.12,"endTime":2160.41,"body":"assessment of the cost"},{"startTime":2160.41,"endTime":2163.68,"body":"and benefits of what happens"},{"startTime":2160.41,"endTime":2163.68,"body":"when you lose moral values."},{"startTime":2163.68,"endTime":2166.01,"body":"And just, as I say, tinkering at the edges"},{"startTime":2166.01,"endTime":2168.73,"body":"of GDP is not going to do it."},{"startTime":2168.73,"endTime":2170.81,"body":"So we need to think again"},{"startTime":2170.81,"endTime":2173.04,"body":"about what is utility,"},{"startTime":2173.04,"endTime":2174.43,"body":"what gives us happiness,"},{"startTime":2174.43,"endTime":2176.78,"body":"what prevents mischief and pain,"},{"startTime":2176.78,"endTime":2178.84,"body":"as Benson described it?"},{"startTime":2178.84,"endTime":2180.74,"body":"And in a way,"},{"startTime":2180.74,"endTime":2182.2,"body":"we need to go even further"},{"startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2184.89,"body":"because we need to"},{"startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2184.89,"body":"think about the balance,"},{"startTime":2184.89,"endTime":2186.7,"body":"the struggle between complacency,"},{"startTime":2186.7,"endTime":2189.31,"body":"just to accept where we are today,"},{"startTime":2189.31,"endTime":2192.393,"body":"and where we want to be,"},{"startTime":2189.31,"endTime":2192.393,"body":"this sense of urgency."},{"startTime":2193.52,"endTime":2195.75,"body":"Now, part of what gets people out of bed"},{"startTime":2195.75,"endTime":2198.12,"body":"is a feeling of disgruntlement,"},{"startTime":2198.12,"endTime":2200.92,"body":"sometimes, about distribution."},{"startTime":2200.92,"endTime":2202.67,"body":"Distribution matters."},{"startTime":2202.67,"endTime":2204.5,"body":"So where there are large benefits"},{"startTime":2204.5,"endTime":2205.98,"body":"for disadvantaged groups,"},{"startTime":2205.98,"endTime":2207.96,"body":"and only small costs for others,"},{"startTime":2207.96,"endTime":2210.18,"body":"the policies can really enhance welfare,"},{"startTime":2210.18,"endTime":2212.48,"body":"despite what markets say."},{"startTime":2212.48,"endTime":2216.2,"body":"But to many economists, gift giving,"},{"startTime":2216.2,"endTime":2217.96,"body":"being nice to other people,"},{"startTime":2217.96,"endTime":2220.69,"body":"is a sort of loss of"},{"startTime":2217.96,"endTime":2220.69,"body":"utility and efficiency."},{"startTime":2220.69,"endTime":2221.523,"body":"So why do we do it?"},{"startTime":2221.523,"endTime":2223.51,"body":"Well, because we like"},{"startTime":2221.523,"endTime":2223.51,"body":"to be well-perceived."},{"startTime":2223.51,"endTime":2225.9,"body":"We want to feel that"},{"startTime":2223.51,"endTime":2225.9,"body":"people love us, right?"},{"startTime":2225.9,"endTime":2227.88,"body":"Remember, that's the moral argument."},{"startTime":2227.88,"endTime":2230.3,"body":"It's got nothing to do with the market."},{"startTime":2230.3,"endTime":2232.11,"body":"The market is just considered"},{"startTime":2232.11,"endTime":2233.94,"body":"to be intrinsic value."},{"startTime":2233.94,"endTime":2236.63,"body":"So a lot of the problems of climate change"},{"startTime":2236.63,"endTime":2238.44,"body":"and the loss of human, which began"},{"startTime":2238.44,"endTime":2239.54,"body":"in the Industrial Revolution"},{"startTime":2239.54,"endTime":2241.053,"body":"and which ended up in the COP,"},{"startTime":2242.04,"endTime":2244.5,"body":"still cannot be sorted out"},{"startTime":2244.5,"endTime":2247.32,"body":"because the losses of nature"},{"startTime":2247.32,"endTime":2249.3,"body":"and the losses of species"},{"startTime":2249.3,"endTime":2251.97,"body":"haven't really made it"},{"startTime":2249.3,"endTime":2251.97,"body":"across the value threshold,"},{"startTime":2251.97,"endTime":2253.32,"body":"haven't really got to people"},{"startTime":2253.32,"endTime":2255.69,"body":"in the same way that COVID has."},{"startTime":2255.69,"endTime":2258.57,"body":"So tackling climate change,"},{"startTime":2258.57,"endTime":2260.57,"body":"tackling the loss of nature,"},{"startTime":2260.57,"endTime":2264.55,"body":"is a balancing act between"},{"startTime":2260.57,"endTime":2264.55,"body":"urgency and complacency."},{"startTime":2264.55,"endTime":2266.95,"body":"The urgency of carbon"},{"startTime":2264.55,"endTime":2266.95,"body":"budgets that can be consumed,"},{"startTime":2266.95,"endTime":2268.763,"body":"literally, in the next, well,"},{"startTime":2268.763,"endTime":2270.84,"body":"I would say five to six years,"},{"startTime":2270.84,"endTime":2273.44,"body":"and complacency to just"},{"startTime":2270.84,"endTime":2273.44,"body":"keep adding more carbon"},{"startTime":2273.44,"endTime":2275.54,"body":"by buying cars and by buying goods."},{"startTime":2275.54,"endTime":2276.55,"body":"That's the kind of, oh, well,"},{"startTime":2276.55,"endTime":2277.75,"body":"someone will take care of it."},{"startTime":2277.75,"endTime":2279.15,"body":"Someone's doing the accounting."},{"startTime":2279.15,"endTime":2280.54,"body":"Well, they're not, actually."},{"startTime":2280.54,"endTime":2282.37,"body":"Nobody's doing that accounting."},{"startTime":2282.37,"endTime":2284.3,"body":"So the urgency"},{"startTime":2284.3,"endTime":2287.06,"body":"of the possible looming sixth extinction,"},{"startTime":2287.06,"endTime":2289.89,"body":"the complacency of not valuing nature,"},{"startTime":2289.89,"endTime":2292.5,"body":"and the destruction of"},{"startTime":2289.89,"endTime":2292.5,"body":"habitats and ecosystems"},{"startTime":2292.5,"endTime":2295.58,"body":"is what essentially should"},{"startTime":2292.5,"endTime":2295.58,"body":"wake us up every morning."},{"startTime":2295.58,"endTime":2297.4,"body":"It's not that it's a negative thing,"},{"startTime":2297.4,"endTime":2299.45,"body":"but it's to understand"},{"startTime":2297.4,"endTime":2299.45,"body":"that all your actions"},{"startTime":2299.45,"endTime":2301.81,"body":"are either falling in the complacency pot"},{"startTime":2301.81,"endTime":2304.74,"body":"or possibly, hopefully, going"},{"startTime":2301.81,"endTime":2304.74,"body":"towards the urgency pot,"},{"startTime":2304.74,"endTime":2307.66,"body":"but you shouldn't all"},{"startTime":2304.74,"endTime":2307.66,"body":"become completely frenetic."},{"startTime":2307.66,"endTime":2309.74,"body":"The way to get around this, of course,"},{"startTime":2309.74,"endTime":2311.5,"body":"is to reorientate ourselves"},{"startTime":2311.5,"endTime":2313.887,"body":"with a new set of moral values."},{"startTime":2313.887,"endTime":2316.66,"body":"And that moral value has"},{"startTime":2313.887,"endTime":2316.66,"body":"to be bringing nature"},{"startTime":2316.66,"endTime":2318.98,"body":"and how we think about the environment"},{"startTime":2318.98,"endTime":2321.293,"body":"much more into the core of our life."},{"startTime":2322.21,"endTime":2326.57,"body":"So thinking about what drives people."},{"startTime":2326.57,"endTime":2327.62,"body":"There's a little story."},{"startTime":2327.62,"endTime":2328.51,"body":"Some of you might know it."},{"startTime":2328.51,"endTime":2331.927,"body":"It was a story by Henry, O. Henry,"},{"startTime":2331.927,"endTime":2333.46,"body":"\"The Great Magi.\""},{"startTime":2333.46,"endTime":2336.627,"body":"And it's an example,"},{"startTime":2333.46,"endTime":2336.627,"body":"it's a children's book,"},{"startTime":2336.627,"endTime":2338.38,"body":"it's a children's story, but"},{"startTime":2336.627,"endTime":2338.38,"body":"it's a very nice example."},{"startTime":2338.38,"endTime":2341.02,"body":"It's about a husband"},{"startTime":2338.38,"endTime":2341.02,"body":"and wife, Jim and Della,"},{"startTime":2341.02,"endTime":2343.41,"body":"and they want to buy Christmas"},{"startTime":2341.02,"endTime":2343.41,"body":"presents for each other,"},{"startTime":2343.41,"endTime":2346.2,"body":"but they don't really"},{"startTime":2343.41,"endTime":2346.2,"body":"have any money to spend,"},{"startTime":2346.2,"endTime":2348.18,"body":"but each has a special possession"},{"startTime":2348.18,"endTime":2349.98,"body":"that they prize above all others."},{"startTime":2349.98,"endTime":2352.16,"body":"For Jim, it's the gold watch."},{"startTime":2352.16,"endTime":2354.92,"body":"It's been handed down from generations."},{"startTime":2354.92,"endTime":2356.84,"body":"And for Della, it's her beautiful,"},{"startTime":2356.84,"endTime":2358.103,"body":"long, thick hair."},{"startTime":2359.16,"endTime":2361.84,"body":"Della sells her hair"},{"startTime":2361.84,"endTime":2365.14,"body":"to buy a chain for Jim's watch."},{"startTime":2365.14,"endTime":2367.45,"body":"Jim sells his watch"},{"startTime":2367.45,"endTime":2369.629,"body":"to buy combs for Della's hair."},{"startTime":2369.629,"endTime":2371.09,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":2371.09,"endTime":2373.322,"body":"So you can imagine what"},{"startTime":2371.09,"endTime":2373.322,"body":"Christmas Day felt like."},{"startTime":2373.322,"endTime":2375.68,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":2375.68,"endTime":2377.74,"body":"So they both had gifts"},{"startTime":2375.68,"endTime":2377.74,"body":"that they couldn't use,"},{"startTime":2377.74,"endTime":2379.57,"body":"but they loved each other,"},{"startTime":2379.57,"endTime":2381.06,"body":"and that was what was priceless,"},{"startTime":2381.06,"endTime":2383.71,"body":"because they valued what"},{"startTime":2381.06,"endTime":2383.71,"body":"each had done for the other."},{"startTime":2385.13,"endTime":2388.86,"body":"So my sense is that"},{"startTime":2385.13,"endTime":2388.86,"body":"valuing comes from purpose."},{"startTime":2388.86,"endTime":2390.67,"body":"It comes from striving"},{"startTime":2390.67,"endTime":2391.91,"body":"to achieve something"},{"startTime":2392.78,"endTime":2395.29,"body":"that is really important."},{"startTime":2395.29,"endTime":2398.03,"body":"There's the enjoyment of succeeding."},{"startTime":2398.03,"endTime":2399.79,"body":"And climbing Mount Everest."},{"startTime":2399.79,"endTime":2400.81,"body":"I don't know if any of you do."},{"startTime":2400.81,"endTime":2402.89,"body":"I used to do sort of crazy"},{"startTime":2400.81,"endTime":2402.89,"body":"things when I was younger,"},{"startTime":2402.89,"endTime":2407.16,"body":"go across the Greenland"},{"startTime":2402.89,"endTime":2407.16,"body":"ice cap, climb mountains,"},{"startTime":2407.16,"endTime":2409.79,"body":"go to the deepest part of"},{"startTime":2407.16,"endTime":2409.79,"body":"the oceans, all that stuff."},{"startTime":2409.79,"endTime":2410.94,"body":"Loved it."},{"startTime":2410.94,"endTime":2412.71,"body":"And it was the doing of it,"},{"startTime":2412.71,"endTime":2413.81,"body":"not just the arriving."},{"startTime":2413.81,"endTime":2416.17,"body":"The arriving seems just to"},{"startTime":2413.81,"endTime":2416.17,"body":"happen just like that, right?"},{"startTime":2416.17,"endTime":2419.04,"body":"It was sort of the sweat"},{"startTime":2416.17,"endTime":2419.04,"body":"and the tears to get there."},{"startTime":2419.04,"endTime":2421.37,"body":"So this is quite different"},{"startTime":2419.04,"endTime":2421.37,"body":"than being deposited"},{"startTime":2421.37,"endTime":2423.41,"body":"at the top by a helicopter"},{"startTime":2423.41,"endTime":2425.7,"body":"or halfway up, okay?"},{"startTime":2423.41,"endTime":2425.7,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":2425.7,"endTime":2427.88,"body":"So what I mean is (laughs)"},{"startTime":2425.7,"endTime":2427.88,"body":"I think that humans"},{"startTime":2427.88,"endTime":2430.73,"body":"are driven, and they like to strive"},{"startTime":2430.73,"endTime":2432.88,"body":"and they like the enjoyment of succeeding."},{"startTime":2432.88,"endTime":2434.08,"body":"It's what we do."},{"startTime":2434.08,"endTime":2436.68,"body":"Little, small victories every day, right?"},{"startTime":2436.68,"endTime":2438.67,"body":"And as you could see in"},{"startTime":2436.68,"endTime":2438.67,"body":"the first year of COVID,"},{"startTime":2438.67,"endTime":2440.14,"body":"when millions benefited"},{"startTime":2440.14,"endTime":2441.96,"body":"from the selflessness of others,"},{"startTime":2441.96,"endTime":2444.54,"body":"their efforts were valued by millions."},{"startTime":2444.54,"endTime":2446.05,"body":"It was a case of humans"},{"startTime":2446.05,"endTime":2447.963,"body":"literally supplying humanity."},{"startTime":2449.08,"endTime":2451.67,"body":"And this capacity to inspire others"},{"startTime":2451.67,"endTime":2454.07,"body":"and to create and appreciate and value"},{"startTime":2454.07,"endTime":2457.9,"body":"the efforts of others is"},{"startTime":2454.07,"endTime":2457.9,"body":"really what is crucial."},{"startTime":2457.9,"endTime":2460.67,"body":"So outside the context of COVID,"},{"startTime":2460.67,"endTime":2462.79,"body":"the value, let's say,"},{"startTime":2460.67,"endTime":2462.79,"body":"the value of childcare,"},{"startTime":2462.79,"endTime":2464.07,"body":"the value of housework,"},{"startTime":2464.07,"endTime":2467.58,"body":"still remains undervalued, poorly paid."},{"startTime":2467.58,"endTime":2469.14,"body":"We don't really know how to add value"},{"startTime":2469.14,"endTime":2471.21,"body":"to each other's lives in a consistent"},{"startTime":2471.21,"endTime":2474.233,"body":"and predictable way because"},{"startTime":2471.21,"endTime":2474.233,"body":"everyone is so different."},{"startTime":2475.07,"endTime":2476.61,"body":"So what we have to do, clearly,"},{"startTime":2476.61,"endTime":2479.06,"body":"is to refocus education and economies"},{"startTime":2479.06,"endTime":2481.31,"body":"on both the human world and nature."},{"startTime":2481.31,"endTime":2482.61,"body":"And we have to think about"},{"startTime":2482.61,"endTime":2484.41,"body":"what's the balance between them,"},{"startTime":2484.41,"endTime":2486.29,"body":"the understanding of cognitive"},{"startTime":2486.29,"endTime":2489.41,"body":"and emotional connections"},{"startTime":2486.29,"endTime":2489.41,"body":"between ourselves."},{"startTime":2489.41,"endTime":2492.2,"body":"We have to learn about how to live wisely"},{"startTime":2492.2,"endTime":2494.65,"body":"and well, and we have to put a high value,"},{"startTime":2494.65,"endTime":2497.6,"body":"of course, on interpersonal"},{"startTime":2494.65,"endTime":2497.6,"body":"aspects of our lives,"},{"startTime":2497.6,"endTime":2500.51,"body":"but underpinning it, it has"},{"startTime":2497.6,"endTime":2500.51,"body":"to be the independencies"},{"startTime":2500.51,"endTime":2502.81,"body":"that we have in nature."},{"startTime":2502.81,"endTime":2505.2,"body":"Literally every breath you take"},{"startTime":2505.2,"endTime":2508.143,"body":"would not happen if nature"},{"startTime":2505.2,"endTime":2508.143,"body":"wasn't functioning out there."},{"startTime":2509.75,"endTime":2510.92,"body":"Actually, in here as well,"},{"startTime":2510.92,"endTime":2513.53,"body":"but anyway, that's"},{"startTime":2510.92,"endTime":2513.53,"body":"another matter altogether."},{"startTime":2513.53,"endTime":2516.2,"body":"Unfortunately, we send a lot of graduates"},{"startTime":2516.2,"endTime":2519.25,"body":"to university to study management,"},{"startTime":2519.25,"endTime":2520.99,"body":"but they really don't know"},{"startTime":2519.25,"endTime":2520.99,"body":"what they're going to manage"},{"startTime":2520.99,"endTime":2522.14,"body":"when they leave."},{"startTime":2520.99,"endTime":2522.14,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"startTime":2522.14,"endTime":2523.24,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":2523.24,"endTime":2524.86,"body":"They've got very little"},{"startTime":2523.24,"endTime":2524.86,"body":"knowledge of people."},{"startTime":2524.86,"endTime":2526.29,"body":"Sorry, I'm being a bit pejorative,"},{"startTime":2526.29,"endTime":2528.21,"body":"but there is a sense in which"},{"startTime":2526.29,"endTime":2528.21,"body":"we're not training people"},{"startTime":2528.21,"endTime":2529.82,"body":"to manage the right things."},{"startTime":2529.82,"endTime":2531.32,"body":"We're training them to manage money."},{"startTime":2531.32,"endTime":2532.68,"body":"And what we actually"},{"startTime":2531.32,"endTime":2532.68,"body":"really want them to do"},{"startTime":2532.68,"endTime":2534.54,"body":"is manage the world in which we live"},{"startTime":2534.54,"endTime":2535.87,"body":"with all of that."},{"startTime":2535.87,"endTime":2537.23,"body":"So if you think about proponents"},{"startTime":2537.23,"endTime":2540.35,"body":"of the universal basic"},{"startTime":2537.23,"endTime":2540.35,"body":"services and what Keynes"},{"startTime":2540.35,"endTime":2542.55,"body":"has said about it, it's about providing"},{"startTime":2542.55,"endTime":2544.72,"body":"a reasonable income to every adult,"},{"startTime":2544.72,"endTime":2546.48,"body":"regardless of circumstances,"},{"startTime":2546.48,"endTime":2548.033,"body":"to use their time well."},{"startTime":2549.0,"endTime":2551.06,"body":"And I would say we need to have"},{"startTime":2551.06,"endTime":2553.39,"body":"the universal basic nature,"},{"startTime":2553.39,"endTime":2556.74,"body":"the services of nature, and"},{"startTime":2553.39,"endTime":2556.74,"body":"understand what that means."},{"startTime":2556.74,"endTime":2558.49,"body":"So in a sense, we need to think about"},{"startTime":2558.49,"endTime":2560.72,"body":"the real value of life."},{"startTime":2560.72,"endTime":2563.73,"body":"We have to prepare for"},{"startTime":2560.72,"endTime":2563.73,"body":"the art of life itself."},{"startTime":2563.73,"endTime":2566.09,"body":"We have to learn how to enjoy more leisure"},{"startTime":2566.09,"endTime":2567.76,"body":"because it is coming."},{"startTime":2567.76,"endTime":2568.6,"body":"It will come."},{"startTime":2568.6,"endTime":2569.69,"body":"There is no doubt."},{"startTime":2569.69,"endTime":2572.79,"body":"Atom Bank, only four days"},{"startTime":2569.69,"endTime":2572.79,"body":"a week now, working week."},{"startTime":2572.79,"endTime":2575.23,"body":"Very interesting dynamic."},{"startTime":2575.23,"endTime":2578.23,"body":"So we need to understand how to enjoy"},{"startTime":2578.23,"endTime":2580.97,"body":"this sort of fuller perfection of life,"},{"startTime":2580.97,"endTime":2582.88,"body":"to really value the natural world"},{"startTime":2582.88,"endTime":2585.24,"body":"and to educate people for this new world."},{"startTime":2585.24,"endTime":2587.09,"body":"That is the point."},{"startTime":2587.09,"endTime":2590.01,"body":"And opposing this are those"},{"startTime":2587.09,"endTime":2590.01,"body":"who believe in a system"},{"startTime":2590.01,"endTime":2592.01,"body":"of work where striving and enjoying"},{"startTime":2592.01,"endTime":2595.0,"body":"are mutually exclusive."},{"startTime":2595.0,"endTime":2597.67,"body":"Work hard, stay long hours,"},{"startTime":2597.67,"endTime":2599.27,"body":"and you will be rewarded."},{"startTime":2599.27,"endTime":2600.61,"body":"Hm."},{"startTime":2600.61,"endTime":2602.67,"body":"Let me take you back"},{"startTime":2600.61,"endTime":2602.67,"body":"(laughs) to the 17th century"},{"startTime":2602.67,"endTime":2605.06,"body":"because these are not new ideas."},{"startTime":2605.06,"endTime":2606.2,"body":"And I want to take you"},{"startTime":2606.2,"endTime":2607.7,"body":"to a beautiful garden."},{"startTime":2607.7,"endTime":2609.15,"body":"If you ever get a chance to visit it,"},{"startTime":2609.15,"endTime":2610.63,"body":"it's in Padua."},{"startTime":2610.63,"endTime":2612.12,"body":"And I want to tell you about two stories,"},{"startTime":2612.12,"endTime":2614.053,"body":"about a garden and a gardener."},{"startTime":2614.9,"endTime":2616.99,"body":"Now, both places, you should visit them"},{"startTime":2616.99,"endTime":2618.98,"body":"early in the morning or"},{"startTime":2616.99,"endTime":2618.98,"body":"late in the afternoon."},{"startTime":2618.98,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"They're amazing examples"},{"startTime":2618.98,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"of what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":2622.04,"endTime":2623.84,"body":"So here we are in Padua."},{"startTime":2623.84,"endTime":2626.483,"body":"It's the Villa Barbarigo."},{"startTime":2627.775,"endTime":2628.8,"body":"Not a very nice Italian accent there,"},{"startTime":2628.8,"endTime":2631.97,"body":"but anyway, this is a"},{"startTime":2628.8,"endTime":2631.97,"body":"philosophical garden."},{"startTime":2631.97,"endTime":2633.64,"body":"It's a symbolic park."},{"startTime":2633.64,"endTime":2635.45,"body":"It offers both a physical"},{"startTime":2635.45,"endTime":2637.91,"body":"and an existential journey."},{"startTime":2637.91,"endTime":2641.29,"body":"It was conceived by"},{"startTime":2637.91,"endTime":2641.29,"body":"Cardinal Gregorio Barbarigo,"},{"startTime":2641.29,"endTime":2644.953,"body":"and he was canonized"},{"startTime":2641.29,"endTime":2644.953,"body":"later as Pope John XXIII,"},{"startTime":2644.953,"endTime":2645.947,"body":"in case you wanted to know."},{"startTime":2645.947,"endTime":2648.73,"body":"And it was built by an"},{"startTime":2645.947,"endTime":2648.73,"body":"architect, Luigi Bernini,"},{"startTime":2648.73,"endTime":2651.93,"body":"famous of the Gian Lorenzo Bernini."},{"startTime":2651.93,"endTime":2655.19,"body":"Now, the complex was laid out in 1665."},{"startTime":2655.19,"endTime":2657.25,"body":"The villa and all of its grandeur"},{"startTime":2657.25,"endTime":2658.94,"body":"and all of this was very important."},{"startTime":2658.94,"endTime":2661.64,"body":"And it was created to thank God"},{"startTime":2661.64,"endTime":2664.31,"body":"for the survival of the"},{"startTime":2661.64,"endTime":2664.31,"body":"noble from the plague."},{"startTime":2664.31,"endTime":2668.72,"body":"So it was giving to the greater good."},{"startTime":2668.72,"endTime":2672.31,"body":"The garden is around"},{"startTime":2668.72,"endTime":2672.31,"body":"an allegorical journey,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2674.55,"endTime":2676.38,"body":"where difficulties are faced,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2676.38,"endTime":2677.98,"body":"where there's always a solution,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2677.98,"endTime":2680.903,"body":"and that solution is coming from nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2681.79,"endTime":2683.41,"body":"A life where every now and again,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2683.41,"endTime":2686.02,"body":"terrible things happened,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2683.41,"endTime":2686.02,"body":"so life is precious."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2686.02,"endTime":2688.34,"body":"It needs to be lived intensely, with joy,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2688.34,"endTime":2690.67,"body":"and it can go on, waiting for eternity,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2690.67,"endTime":2691.513,"body":"in their case."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2692.66,"endTime":2695.35,"body":"This boxwood labyrinth is 400 years old."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2695.35,"endTime":2697.723,"body":"It's probably the oldest one"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2695.35,"endTime":2697.723,"body":"of its kind in the world."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2697.723,"endTime":2699.16,"body":"It's very unique."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2699.16,"endTime":2701.21,"body":"And some of the trees in this estate"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2701.21,"endTime":2703.77,"body":"are about 300 to 900 years old."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2703.77,"endTime":2705.91,"body":"So it's a beautiful place"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2705.91,"endTime":2708.01,"body":"that tells you, in those days,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2708.01,"endTime":2711.01,"body":"how much nature was valued."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2711.01,"endTime":2712.72,"body":"That was the expression"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2712.72,"endTime":2714.98,"body":"of a family that could"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2712.72,"endTime":2714.98,"body":"have spent its money"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2714.98,"endTime":2717.21,"body":"on many things, and spent it in this way,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2717.21,"endTime":2719.23,"body":"and then opened it to the public."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2719.23,"endTime":2721.79,"body":"It was a true public open piece."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2721.79,"endTime":2723.69,"body":"So it's a spectacular garden,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2723.69,"endTime":2725.17,"body":"but it doesn't have a price."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2725.17,"endTime":2727.73,"body":"There's no price for this in the market."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2727.73,"endTime":2728.76,"body":"And that's the challenge."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2728.76,"endTime":2731.55,"body":"There isn't a price, it's priceless."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2731.55,"endTime":2733.59,"body":"At the same time,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2733.59,"endTime":2734.74,"body":"here we are in Britain."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2735.891,"endTime":2738.15,"body":"One of Great Britain's"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2735.891,"endTime":2738.15,"body":"most celebrated gardeners,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2738.15,"endTime":2740.597,"body":"Lancelot Capability"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2738.15,"endTime":2740.597,"body":"Brown, was hard at work."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2740.597,"endTime":2743.43,"body":"And he was a revered, designed."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2743.43,"endTime":2744.61,"body":"He was an entrepreneur."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2744.61,"endTime":2746.0,"body":"He was a salesman."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2746.0,"endTime":2747.76,"body":"And his nickname came from his fondness"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2747.76,"endTime":2749.49,"body":"for describing country estates as having"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2749.49,"endTime":2752.06,"body":"great capabilities for improvement."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2752.06,"endTime":2754.89,"body":"So his parkland celebrated nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2754.89,"endTime":2756.41,"body":"They had rivers and lakes"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2756.41,"endTime":2758.23,"body":"and beautiful trees and cedar trees."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2758.23,"endTime":2759.67,"body":"Again, from all over the world,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2759.67,"endTime":2761.5,"body":"from Asia and North America."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2761.5,"endTime":2764.12,"body":"They were big, open landscapes with lawns"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2764.12,"endTime":2767.23,"body":"right up to the front"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2764.12,"endTime":2767.23,"body":"door, wildlife and parkland"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2767.23,"endTime":2769.27,"body":"literally up to the windows."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2769.27,"endTime":2771.47,"body":"The challenge was that sometimes he needed"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2771.47,"endTime":2774.82,"body":"to move a whole village"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2771.47,"endTime":2774.82,"body":"out of the landscape,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2774.82,"endTime":2776.64,"body":"but they always got another place to go,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2776.64,"endTime":2778.97,"body":"so I have to say that."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2778.97,"endTime":2781.81,"body":"But they really capture, in a sense,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2781.81,"endTime":2783.87,"body":"the essence of the value of nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2783.87,"endTime":2785.72,"body":"And again, not priced."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2785.72,"endTime":2788.0,"body":"Many of these have been valued"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2788.0,"endTime":2792.42,"body":"and taken care of over generations."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2792.42,"endTime":2794.41,"body":"The owners have been careful to protect"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2794.41,"endTime":2795.98,"body":"and preserve them."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2795.98,"endTime":2797.75,"body":"They didn't need policies to do that,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2797.75,"endTime":2800.01,"body":"way before policies started."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2800.01,"endTime":2802.85,"body":"And unlike paintings, which can be sold"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2802.85,"endTime":2804.25,"body":"and move around the world"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2804.25,"endTime":2806.93,"body":"at some eye-watering prices."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2806.93,"endTime":2808.25,"body":"The most expensive, of course,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2808.25,"endTime":2809.87,"body":"was about 750 million."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2809.87,"endTime":2810.72,"body":"It was a Picasso."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2811.77,"endTime":2814.29,"body":"These remain intact as indicators"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2814.29,"endTime":2818.54,"body":"of an era when nature was valued."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2818.54,"endTime":2819.643,"body":"Nature was valued."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2820.53,"endTime":2823.26,"body":"So I want to end at this point"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2823.26,"endTime":2824.59,"body":"because I actually live"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2824.59,"endTime":2826.1,"body":"in a Capability Brown landscape."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2826.1,"endTime":2826.933,"body":"I'm very lucky."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2826.933,"endTime":2828.473,"body":"This is the view from my house."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2829.8,"endTime":2831.76,"body":"And when I was watching"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2831.76,"endTime":2833.18,"body":"and looking at the landscape"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2833.18,"endTime":2835.29,"body":"and I was sort of finishing"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2833.18,"endTime":2835.29,"body":"this up and thinking, well,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2835.29,"endTime":2838.21,"body":"this is the embodiment"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2835.29,"endTime":2838.21,"body":"of what it looks like,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2838.21,"endTime":2841.44,"body":"of what the universal value of nature"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2841.44,"endTime":2843.43,"body":"could look like again and again."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2843.43,"endTime":2845.94,"body":"And it doesn't always have to"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2843.43,"endTime":2845.94,"body":"be these pastoral landscapes."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2845.94,"endTime":2847.96,"body":"You can find places in the cities,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2847.96,"endTime":2850.1,"body":"you can find them everywhere."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2850.1,"endTime":2852.33,"body":"And I was sitting and I was looking up"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2852.33,"endTime":2854.54,"body":"and I was thinking that"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2852.33,"endTime":2854.54,"body":"actually in the summer,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2854.54,"endTime":2856.63,"body":"interestingly, the swallows and the birds"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2856.63,"endTime":2859.29,"body":"that come are the birds that I see"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2859.29,"endTime":2860.47,"body":"sitting in the Rift Valley."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2860.47,"endTime":2861.99,"body":"And I wonder sometimes"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2860.47,"endTime":2861.99,"body":"if they're the same ones."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2861.99,"endTime":2864.54,"body":"Maybe they follow me"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2861.99,"endTime":2864.54,"body":"backwards and forwards."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2864.54,"endTime":2866.67,"body":"But I do feel very connected."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2866.67,"endTime":2867.87,"body":"And what I appreciate"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2867.87,"endTime":2871.59,"body":"is that in the mix,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2871.59,"endTime":2874.55,"body":"in Britain, in places in Essex"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2874.55,"endTime":2876.69,"body":"and places where I work on the ground,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2876.69,"endTime":2879.78,"body":"there are people who are truly inspired"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2879.78,"endTime":2883.0,"body":"by nature and are inspiring about the way"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2883.0,"endTime":2884.9,"body":"in which they work in nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2884.9,"endTime":2888.11,"body":"From farmers to landowners to stewards,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2888.11,"endTime":2891.61,"body":"there are a lot of people"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2888.11,"endTime":2891.61,"body":"who have that moral fiber"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2891.61,"endTime":2894.34,"body":"and that commitment and that, I would say,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2894.34,"endTime":2898.11,"body":"moral sentiment, which is"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2894.34,"endTime":2898.11,"body":"their market sentiment."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2898.11,"endTime":2899.26,"body":"And so what I wonder"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2899.26,"endTime":2902.14,"body":"is whether we can create"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2902.14,"endTime":2905.89,"body":"that same sense of inspiration"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2905.89,"endTime":2908.5,"body":"to enable the next"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2905.89,"endTime":2908.5,"body":"generation to sort of divorce"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2908.5,"endTime":2910.81,"body":"the logic of a market society,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2910.81,"endTime":2913.28,"body":"recover the moral society,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2913.28,"endTime":2915.73,"body":"along with the Maasai and other tribes"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2915.73,"endTime":2917.58,"body":"and Indigenous people"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2915.73,"endTime":2917.58,"body":"and people who are close"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2917.58,"endTime":2920.64,"body":"to the ground, to really bring that sense"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2920.64,"endTime":2923.43,"body":"of wonder of nature and its universal"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2923.43,"endTime":2924.96,"body":"back into our lives."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2924.96,"endTime":2928.88,"body":"Because I contend that"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2924.96,"endTime":2928.88,"body":"if we don't do that,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2928.88,"endTime":2931.74,"body":"we will have a sixth extinction"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2931.74,"endTime":2933.39,"body":"on this planet."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2933.39,"endTime":2935.78,"body":"And as David Attenborough has said,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2935.78,"endTime":2937.32,"body":"we're dependent on the natural world"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2937.32,"endTime":2939.75,"body":"for every breath of air we take,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2939.75,"endTime":2942.0,"body":"and ultimately for every mouthful of food"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2942.0,"endTime":2945.32,"body":"that we eat, but it's even more than that."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2945.32,"endTime":2947.53,"body":"We're also dependent on it"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2947.53,"endTime":2950.78,"body":"for our sanity and our"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2947.53,"endTime":2950.78,"body":"sense of proportion."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2950.78,"endTime":2951.725,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2951.725,"endTime":2954.892,"body":"(audience applauding)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2958.863,"endTime":2959.843,"body":"- [Man] Well, contrast your"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2959.843,"endTime":2962.147,"body":"(speaks with heavy accent) love in Kenya,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2962.147,"endTime":2964.19,"body":"and we are here in London,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2964.19,"endTime":2965.39,"body":"the heart of capitalism,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2966.25,"endTime":2968.79,"body":"very divorced from the countryside,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2968.79,"endTime":2970.94,"body":"if you're looking"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2968.79,"endTime":2970.94,"body":"(indistinct) from London."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2971.856,"endTime":2974.51,"body":"And I must admit that I blame everything"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2974.51,"endTime":2976.3,"body":"on capitalism."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2976.3,"endTime":2978.55,"body":"And I've got many questions"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2976.3,"endTime":2978.55,"body":"and many comments,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2978.55,"endTime":2980.48,"body":"but I'll restrict myself"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2980.48,"endTime":2982.48,"body":"to one question,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2982.48,"endTime":2985.39,"body":"and that is"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2985.39,"endTime":2987.25,"body":"are you optimistic"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2987.25,"endTime":2990.22,"body":"or pessimistic for the future?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2992.53,"endTime":2994.533,"body":"- I used to say I was optimistic,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2995.39,"endTime":2998.35,"body":"but I said that in a"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2995.39,"endTime":2998.35,"body":"really naive, stupid way"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":2998.35,"endTime":3001.64,"body":"because it was my nature to do that."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3001.64,"endTime":3004.96,"body":"But I'm not pessimistic,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3004.96,"endTime":3007.03,"body":"but what I am trying to do,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3007.03,"endTime":3009.7,"body":"and these lectures are my small attempt,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3009.7,"endTime":3013.71,"body":"is to go to the root of what is needed,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3013.71,"endTime":3015.46,"body":"as opposed to just simply saying"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3015.46,"endTime":3017.5,"body":"we've got lots of"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3015.46,"endTime":3017.5,"body":"technological fixes out there."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3017.5,"endTime":3019.35,"body":"I mean, I've spent my life doing that."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3019.35,"endTime":3020.49,"body":"I've worked with policymakers."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3020.49,"endTime":3021.82,"body":"I work on the ground in Kenya."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3021.82,"endTime":3022.7,"body":"I work all over the world"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3022.7,"endTime":3024.86,"body":"trying to create the solutions"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3024.86,"endTime":3025.81,"body":"that will make a difference"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3025.81,"endTime":3029.57,"body":"for people's actual lives today."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3029.57,"endTime":3032.61,"body":"But every time I, if you step away,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3032.61,"endTime":3035.25,"body":"you see that it only works"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3035.25,"endTime":3037.61,"body":"when the moral sentiment"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3037.61,"endTime":3039.74,"body":"is firmly embedded."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3039.74,"endTime":3041.61,"body":"And I don't think"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3041.61,"endTime":3044.61,"body":"that it matters whether you live in a city"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3044.61,"endTime":3047.12,"body":"or whether you live in"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3044.61,"endTime":3047.12,"body":"the Kenyan Rift Valley,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3047.12,"endTime":3049.58,"body":"you can all, everybody can have"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3049.58,"endTime":3051.783,"body":"a universal value for nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3052.98,"endTime":3054.14,"body":"So how do we get there?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3054.14,"endTime":3055.85,"body":"That's really the point."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3055.85,"endTime":3057.73,"body":"It's a different"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3055.85,"endTime":3057.73,"body":"conversation to capitalism."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3057.73,"endTime":3059.79,"body":"It's not anti-capitalism,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3059.79,"endTime":3062.573,"body":"it's just a different take on our world."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3064.18,"endTime":3066.502,"body":"- I've got a question online here,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3066.502,"endTime":3067.594,"body":"which is a bit more philosophical."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3067.594,"endTime":3068.49,"body":"- Oh, okay."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3068.49,"endTime":3069.742,"body":"That was quite philosophical."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3069.742,"endTime":3072.14,"body":"- Well, it was quite"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3069.742,"endTime":3072.14,"body":"philosophical, you're right."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3072.14,"endTime":3074.24,"body":"Asking for your reflections"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3074.24,"endTime":3077.483,"body":"about establishing a definition of value."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3078.372,"endTime":3079.205,"body":"The questioner says,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3079.205,"endTime":3081.667,"body":"\"Karl Marx distinguished between use value"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3081.667,"endTime":3083.467,"body":"\"and exchange value."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3083.467,"endTime":3085.157,"body":"\"So valuing nature can be either"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3085.157,"endTime":3087.557,"body":"\"appreciating its beauty and variety"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3087.557,"endTime":3089.687,"body":"\"or could mean putting a price"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3089.687,"endTime":3091.83,"body":"\"on forests, et cetera.\""},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3091.83,"endTime":3093.07,"body":"Your thoughts?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3093.07,"endTime":3094.4,"body":"- It goes way deeper."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3094.4,"endTime":3095.74,"body":"It's way deeper than appreciation."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3095.74,"endTime":3097.69,"body":"It's actually survival."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3097.69,"endTime":3098.98,"body":"And if you think about COVID,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3098.98,"endTime":3100.55,"body":"it was about survival."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3100.55,"endTime":3101.84,"body":"And what did we value?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3101.84,"endTime":3103.7,"body":"Well, of course, we valued"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3101.84,"endTime":3103.7,"body":"the healthcare system,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3103.7,"endTime":3104.797,"body":"but we valued our community"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3104.797,"endTime":3107.9,"body":"and we valued everyone around us as well."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3107.9,"endTime":3111.26,"body":"So we valued many things"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3107.9,"endTime":3111.26,"body":"that we can put a price on."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3111.26,"endTime":3113.97,"body":"Your cable connection to get the news,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3113.97,"endTime":3116.15,"body":"connection to the BBC, or"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3113.97,"endTime":3116.15,"body":"however you're getting your news,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3116.15,"endTime":3118.13,"body":"your social media, those are things"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3118.13,"endTime":3119.77,"body":"you can put a price on."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3119.77,"endTime":3121.69,"body":"But ultimately, I think that nature"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3121.69,"endTime":3123.47,"body":"goes beyond Karl Marx,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3123.47,"endTime":3124.67,"body":"beyond those just two."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3124.67,"endTime":3126.4,"body":"I think there's another step back."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3126.4,"endTime":3128.17,"body":"It goes back even earlier"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3128.17,"endTime":3130.58,"body":"to what I was saying, that even Smith has"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3130.58,"endTime":3132.4,"body":"in his original books."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3132.4,"endTime":3133.686,"body":"- [Man] So I'm going to do something"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3133.686,"endTime":3134.7,"body":"that's kind of frowned upon,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3134.7,"endTime":3136.75,"body":"but I'm going to combine two philosophies"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3136.75,"endTime":3137.87,"body":"within this question."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3137.87,"endTime":3139.52,"body":"So like within German idealism,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3139.52,"endTime":3140.97,"body":"there's obviously Kant,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3140.97,"endTime":3143.32,"body":"and Kant kind of believes in"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3140.97,"endTime":3143.32,"body":"the whole Kantian noumena,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3143.32,"endTime":3144.92,"body":"which is like the thing in itself."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3144.92,"endTime":3146.96,"body":"And it's interesting to kind of look into,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3146.96,"endTime":3148.53,"body":"the whole idea that as humans,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3148.53,"endTime":3151.371,"body":"we're kind of like too"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3148.53,"endTime":3151.371,"body":"stupid to know something,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3151.371,"endTime":3153.48,"body":"(laughs) like to actually look"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3151.371,"endTime":3153.48,"body":"into it and know it fully."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3153.48,"endTime":3155.96,"body":"And there's also the"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3153.48,"endTime":3155.96,"body":"idea of phenomenology,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3155.96,"endTime":3157.3,"body":"like the idea of qualia,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3157.3,"endTime":3159.37,"body":"of how our experiences kind of differ"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3159.37,"endTime":3161.1,"body":"with appreciating a certain thing."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3162.8,"body":"Do you think the fact"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3162.8,"body":"that, because as humans,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3162.8,"endTime":3164.81,"body":"we're kind of too stupid"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3162.8,"endTime":3164.81,"body":"to understand the truth,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3164.81,"endTime":3166.38,"body":"do you think we're kind of"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3164.81,"endTime":3166.38,"body":"too stupid to see something"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3166.38,"endTime":3168.87,"body":"before it actually eventually happens,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3168.87,"endTime":3169.72,"body":"like with nature?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3171.33,"endTime":3173.966,"body":"- Stupidity is a very"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3171.33,"endTime":3173.966,"body":"interesting point, actually."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3173.966,"endTime":3176.513,"body":"(laughs) It's like the 101 guide to, so."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3177.77,"endTime":3179.58,"body":"It is not stupid to say"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3179.58,"endTime":3182.0,"body":"that you have never experienced something,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3182.0,"endTime":3185.839,"body":"and therefore, can't have"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3182.0,"endTime":3185.839,"body":"a reaction or a sentiment."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3185.839,"endTime":3187.25,"body":"That is absolutely not the case,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3187.25,"endTime":3189.413,"body":"but that's how it comes over sometimes."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3191.99,"endTime":3194.04,"body":"Can you find a way, then,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3194.04,"endTime":3198.21,"body":"to circumvent that kind of train crash"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3198.21,"endTime":3199.93,"body":"or that kind of collision"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3199.93,"endTime":3202.52,"body":"by allowing experiential learning"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3202.52,"endTime":3205.75,"body":"to be much more widely accessible?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3205.75,"endTime":3208.86,"body":"And I think that's really"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3205.75,"endTime":3208.86,"body":"where I would go with this."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3208.86,"endTime":3212.89,"body":"Because experiencing something physically,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3212.89,"endTime":3214.45,"body":"experiencing something through"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3214.45,"endTime":3218.01,"body":"the autonomous system of your body,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3218.01,"endTime":3220.41,"body":"is much more likely to have an interaction"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3220.41,"endTime":3223.45,"body":"with your psyche and with your intellect"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3223.45,"endTime":3225.463,"body":"than simply sitting in a room listening,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3226.55,"endTime":3227.6,"body":"sad to say."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3227.6,"endTime":3229.121,"body":"Sorry, you've just sat"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3227.6,"endTime":3229.121,"body":"through an hour of me,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3229.121,"endTime":3231.09,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3229.121,"endTime":3231.09,"body":"but anyway."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3231.09,"endTime":3233.02,"body":"I wish I could sweep you all up"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3233.02,"endTime":3234.85,"body":"and take you with me,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3234.85,"endTime":3237.08,"body":"but that's not going to happen just yet."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3237.08,"endTime":3239.61,"body":"But I think, if I'm right,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3239.61,"endTime":3241.81,"body":"I think we shouldn't belabor the fact"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3241.81,"endTime":3245.38,"body":"that people who don't"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3241.81,"endTime":3245.38,"body":"have the same experiences,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3245.38,"endTime":3247.34,"body":"and we're not all the same."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3247.34,"endTime":3249.94,"body":"So my sense is that we continue"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3249.94,"endTime":3251.69,"body":"to learn all through life."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3251.69,"endTime":3253.98,"body":"And the more you expose yourself,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3253.98,"endTime":3255.56,"body":"literally, to those sorts"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3255.56,"endTime":3259.17,"body":"of sentiments, the"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3255.56,"endTime":3259.17,"body":"better it's going to be,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3259.17,"endTime":3260.14,"body":"the better it's going to be."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3260.14,"endTime":3261.73,"body":"- Thank you."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3260.14,"endTime":3261.73,"body":"- Thank you."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3261.73,"endTime":3263.19,"body":"I think my question is linked"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3263.19,"endTime":3264.7,"body":"to the previous one."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3264.7,"endTime":3266.35,"body":"I'm thinking about the babies"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3266.35,"endTime":3269.67,"body":"that are born right now."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3269.67,"endTime":3270.85,"body":"So I'm afraid that they"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3270.85,"endTime":3273.02,"body":"are not interacted with the nature,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3273.02,"endTime":3275.04,"body":"and they cannot be if everything"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3275.04,"endTime":3276.99,"body":"is going this way."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3276.99,"endTime":3279.41,"body":"So I'm thinking about how we"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3279.41,"endTime":3281.983,"body":"can artificially or,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3279.41,"endTime":3281.983,"body":"I don't know, however,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3283.23,"endTime":3285.76,"body":"make them interact with the nature."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3285.76,"endTime":3287.79,"body":"Because I'm like kind of 30 years old."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3287.79,"endTime":3291.12,"body":"And I can imagine how my parents"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3291.12,"endTime":3292.51,"body":"interacted with nature"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3292.51,"endTime":3295.52,"body":"and how they are more afraid than me,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3295.52,"endTime":3298.23,"body":"but I don't know whether the baby is"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3298.23,"endTime":3299.833,"body":"or the children right now,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3299.833,"endTime":3302.463,"body":"they are afraid as much as we are."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3304.35,"endTime":3305.183,"body":"- Oh, where to start?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3305.183,"endTime":3307.96,"body":"Okay, I think children"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3305.183,"endTime":3307.96,"body":"are naturally curious."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3307.96,"endTime":3310.69,"body":"And for me, that's forever"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3307.96,"endTime":3310.69,"body":"the best thing going,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3310.69,"endTime":3313.403,"body":"because curiosity is a way to experience."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3313.403,"endTime":3316.13,"body":"This is exactly the"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3313.403,"endTime":3316.13,"body":"same point I was making."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3316.13,"endTime":3318.1,"body":"And children have a sense of,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3318.1,"endTime":3319.25,"body":"they do have morals."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3319.25,"endTime":3320.8,"body":"They absolutely do."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3320.8,"endTime":3322.27,"body":"It's not just you standing over them,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3322.27,"endTime":3323.94,"body":"saying what is right and wrong."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3323.94,"endTime":3325.6,"body":"If you just put children together,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3325.6,"endTime":3329.07,"body":"you see how they interact with each other,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3329.07,"endTime":3330.53,"body":"and wanting to be loved."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3330.53,"endTime":3332.84,"body":"Do you remember I said"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3330.53,"endTime":3332.84,"body":"part of the moral sentiment"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3332.84,"endTime":3334.33,"body":"is about wanting to be loved,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3334.33,"endTime":3336.81,"body":"to be well-regarded and so on?"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3336.81,"endTime":3337.9,"body":"It would appear"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3338.75,"endTime":3341.65,"body":"that that is a very forceful part"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3341.65,"endTime":3345.03,"body":"of even children getting together."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3345.03,"endTime":3347.56,"body":"I see it, actually, a lot"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3345.03,"endTime":3347.56,"body":"in the tribal community"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3347.56,"endTime":3349.21,"body":"where I live,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3349.21,"endTime":3351.83,"body":"where the inculcation of the rules"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3351.83,"endTime":3354.51,"body":"and the hierarchy is absolutely there."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3354.51,"endTime":3356.26,"body":"And the chief is the boss,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3356.26,"endTime":3358.93,"body":"so to speak, and even grown men"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3358.93,"endTime":3361.2,"body":"bow to the discipline of the chief."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3361.2,"endTime":3365.37,"body":"But there's a sense in which fairness,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3365.37,"endTime":3369.05,"body":"and fairness to everything, animals,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3369.05,"endTime":3373.35,"body":"as well as humans, is, it would appear"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3373.35,"endTime":3375.52,"body":"to be a very natural instinct."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3375.52,"endTime":3376.42,"body":"When you take away"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3376.42,"endTime":3378.56,"body":"all the kind of industrialization,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3378.56,"endTime":3380.17,"body":"you strip it all away,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3380.17,"endTime":3382.33,"body":"and you've got children"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3380.17,"endTime":3382.33,"body":"out there in the bush"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3382.33,"endTime":3384.19,"body":"and out there in nature,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3384.19,"endTime":3387.79,"body":"they seem to be able"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3384.19,"endTime":3387.79,"body":"to think about fairness"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3387.79,"endTime":3390.97,"body":"for the non-human, as well"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3387.79,"endTime":3390.97,"body":"as for the human world."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3390.97,"endTime":3394.07,"body":"So we are divorcing children from that,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3394.07,"endTime":3397.63,"body":"that way to play, to see a continuum"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3397.63,"endTime":3399.36,"body":"between the human and the non-human world."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3399.36,"endTime":3401.98,"body":"And I think that's where we"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3399.36,"endTime":3401.98,"body":"have to focus our attention."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3401.98,"endTime":3403.09,"body":"And it comes back to experience,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3403.09,"endTime":3405.85,"body":"touching things, picking centipedes up."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3405.85,"endTime":3406.963,"body":"Fantastic, right."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3407.84,"endTime":3410.26,"body":"So I think that's the point. (laughs)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3410.26,"endTime":3412.4,"body":"- [Man] You're making"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3410.26,"endTime":3412.4,"body":"criticism of economists."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3412.4,"endTime":3414.34,"body":"I think it would be helpful."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3414.34,"endTime":3416.48,"body":"You can't cover everything in 45 minutes."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3416.48,"endTime":3417.98,"body":"- No. (laughs)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3416.48,"endTime":3417.98,"body":"- I appreciate that."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3417.98,"endTime":3420.74,"body":"To point out with the"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3417.98,"endTime":3420.74,"body":"neoclassical economics,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3420.74,"endTime":3422.69,"body":"which is dominant in 90%"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3422.69,"endTime":3424.863,"body":"of Western universities, I guess,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3426.03,"endTime":3428.937,"body":"is the equations are"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3426.03,"endTime":3428.937,"body":"formulated in such a way"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3428.937,"endTime":3432.07,"body":"that it's a self-correcting system."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3432.07,"endTime":3433.62,"body":"And it's also based"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3433.62,"endTime":3435.34,"body":"on the assumptions"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3435.34,"endTime":3439.21,"body":"that buyers know as much as"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3435.34,"endTime":3439.21,"body":"the sellers do about products,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3439.21,"endTime":3441.64,"body":"and that prices came from information"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3442.88,"endTime":3445.543,"body":"reflecting the usefulness or whatever,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3445.543,"endTime":3446.57,"body":"in fact, of the product."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3446.57,"endTime":3450.02,"body":"Well, Ratners, you may"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3446.57,"endTime":3450.02,"body":"remember their jewelry,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3450.02,"endTime":3451.32,"body":"the chief executive said"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3451.32,"endTime":3452.89,"body":"they're just paying a lot of old rubbish"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3452.89,"endTime":3454.47,"body":"for a high price. (laughs)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3454.47,"endTime":3456.16,"body":"So there's an awful"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3454.47,"endTime":3456.16,"body":"lot that's going wrong,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3456.16,"endTime":3457.95,"body":"but it's still being taught in a lot"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3457.95,"endTime":3461.36,"body":"of universities in the West."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3461.36,"endTime":3462.347,"body":"- Well,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3461.36,"endTime":3462.347,"body":"- Unfortunately."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3462.347,"endTime":3463.18,"body":"- I'm very pleased to say."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3463.18,"endTime":3465.16,"body":"I completely agree, and it's not to knock"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3465.16,"endTime":3466.32,"body":"every economist 'cause some of them"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3466.32,"endTime":3467.26,"body":"are very good friends of mine,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3467.26,"endTime":3469.069,"body":"but"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3467.26,"endTime":3469.069,"body":"(audience laughs)"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3469.069,"endTime":3470.87,"body":"I'm very happy that the"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3469.069,"endTime":3470.87,"body":"institute where I am,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3470.87,"endTime":3472.62,"body":"the Institute for Global Prosperity"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3473.674,"endTime":3476.58,"body":"at University College"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3473.674,"endTime":3476.58,"body":"London, we have a very,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3476.58,"endTime":3478.47,"body":"very strong core now"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3478.47,"endTime":3481.64,"body":"of ecological economics, as it's called,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3481.64,"endTime":3483.48,"body":"which captures a lot of this,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3483.48,"endTime":3484.58,"body":"so the natural prosperity"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3484.58,"endTime":3487.03,"body":"all the way through to"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3484.58,"endTime":3487.03,"body":"prosperity with people."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3487.03,"endTime":3489.33,"body":"And Professor Robert"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3487.03,"endTime":3489.33,"body":"Costanza, Bob Costanza,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3489.33,"endTime":3490.57,"body":"has just joined us."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3490.57,"endTime":3493.37,"body":"So we're hoping that we can really bring"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3493.37,"endTime":3495.55,"body":"this world of prosperity"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3495.55,"endTime":3497.86,"body":"and ecological and thinking about"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3497.86,"endTime":3499.35,"body":"the universal value of nature"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3499.35,"endTime":3501.33,"body":"much more into the forefront,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3501.33,"endTime":3502.57,"body":"particularly in the UK,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3502.57,"endTime":3504.23,"body":"in the policy world,"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3504.23,"endTime":3506.29,"body":"as well as doing it out in the rest"},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3506.29,"endTime":3507.961,"body":"of the world as well, so."},{"speaker":"and it's conveying a positive message","startTime":3507.961,"endTime":3510.342,"body":"(audience applauding)"}]}