{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.73,"endTime":4.52,"body":"- Hello, welcome to today's lecture."},{"startTime":4.52,"endTime":5.7,"body":"I'm Imogen Goold,"},{"startTime":5.7,"endTime":7.52,"body":"I am a professor in medical law"},{"startTime":7.52,"endTime":8.87,"body":"at the University of Oxford,"},{"startTime":8.87,"endTime":10.36,"body":"and I'm going to talk to you today"},{"startTime":10.36,"endTime":12.18,"body":"about your body parts and the law,"},{"startTime":12.18,"endTime":14.98,"body":"and specifically, do you"},{"startTime":12.18,"endTime":14.98,"body":"own your own body parts,"},{"startTime":14.98,"endTime":15.813,"body":"and should you."},{"startTime":17.06,"endTime":17.893,"body":"You might be thinking,"},{"startTime":17.893,"endTime":20.24,"body":"why is the question of whether, body parts"},{"startTime":20.24,"endTime":21.66,"body":"one that anyone would ever ask,"},{"startTime":21.66,"endTime":22.79,"body":"why would we be interested"},{"startTime":22.79,"endTime":25.36,"body":"in thinking about it that way at all?"},{"startTime":25.36,"endTime":26.74,"body":"And if you did ask it,"},{"startTime":26.74,"endTime":29.15,"body":"why is it a question that"},{"startTime":26.74,"endTime":29.15,"body":"you should turn your mind to,"},{"startTime":29.15,"endTime":31.16,"body":"why should I even answer it for you?"},{"startTime":31.16,"endTime":32.85,"body":"Who cares if you own them or not?"},{"startTime":32.85,"endTime":33.81,"body":"Does it really matter?"},{"startTime":33.81,"endTime":35.24,"body":"Well, what I'm going to explain to you"},{"startTime":35.24,"endTime":37.7,"body":"over the course of the"},{"startTime":35.24,"endTime":37.7,"body":"next hour is why, in fact,"},{"startTime":37.7,"endTime":39.31,"body":"it might matter very much, legally,"},{"startTime":39.31,"endTime":41.72,"body":"whether or not we own our body parts,"},{"startTime":41.72,"endTime":43.66,"body":"and why, hopefully by the end,"},{"startTime":43.66,"endTime":45.26,"body":"I'll have made the case to you"},{"startTime":45.26,"endTime":47.98,"body":"for why we should own our body parts,"},{"startTime":47.98,"endTime":50.193,"body":"and that's the approach"},{"startTime":47.98,"endTime":50.193,"body":"the law should take."},{"startTime":51.15,"endTime":52.24,"body":"To do this, I'm going to talk to you"},{"startTime":52.24,"endTime":54.67,"body":"about why people care about"},{"startTime":52.24,"endTime":54.67,"body":"the fate of their body parts,"},{"startTime":54.67,"endTime":56.16,"body":"and why they should care,"},{"startTime":56.16,"endTime":58.742,"body":"I'm going to give you a sense"},{"startTime":56.16,"endTime":58.742,"body":"of the value of those parts,"},{"startTime":58.742,"endTime":60.2,"body":"and the interests people have in them,"},{"startTime":60.2,"endTime":62.4,"body":"and introduce you to numerous situations"},{"startTime":62.4,"endTime":65.25,"body":"in which these various interests"},{"startTime":62.4,"endTime":65.25,"body":"have come into conflict."},{"startTime":65.25,"endTime":66.96,"body":"I'm going to demonstrate"},{"startTime":65.25,"endTime":66.96,"body":"why it is, in fact,"},{"startTime":66.96,"endTime":68.14,"body":"deeply problematic"},{"startTime":68.14,"endTime":70.7,"body":"if the law does not permit"},{"startTime":68.14,"endTime":70.7,"body":"the ownership of body parts."},{"startTime":70.7,"endTime":71.55,"body":"So where to start?"},{"startTime":71.55,"endTime":73.21,"body":"It might help first"},{"startTime":73.21,"endTime":74.56,"body":"if I explain to you what I mean"},{"startTime":74.56,"endTime":76.72,"body":"when I say your body parts."},{"startTime":76.72,"endTime":77.57,"body":"And as I do that,"},{"startTime":77.57,"endTime":79.1,"body":"I'm going to tease out some of the ways"},{"startTime":79.1,"endTime":80.053,"body":"in which we use body parts,"},{"startTime":80.053,"endTime":81.84,"body":"some of these will be familiar to you,"},{"startTime":81.84,"endTime":84.22,"body":"some might be quite a surprise,"},{"startTime":84.22,"endTime":85.17,"body":"and in doing so,"},{"startTime":85.17,"endTime":88.66,"body":"we'll see why body parts are"},{"startTime":85.17,"endTime":88.66,"body":"important to various people,"},{"startTime":88.66,"endTime":89.76,"body":"so what I tend to refer to"},{"startTime":89.76,"endTime":92.19,"body":"as why people have an interest in them."},{"startTime":92.19,"endTime":95.32,"body":"So what are they, and"},{"startTime":92.19,"endTime":95.32,"body":"why are they important?"},{"startTime":95.32,"endTime":97.09,"body":"By body parts, I mean just that,"},{"startTime":97.09,"endTime":99.05,"body":"I mean parts of your human body."},{"startTime":99.05,"endTime":100.26,"body":"And this might be something"},{"startTime":100.26,"endTime":103.62,"body":"like a whole organ that's removed,"},{"startTime":103.62,"endTime":104.8,"body":"so a kidney,"},{"startTime":104.8,"endTime":107.58,"body":"this might be during life,"},{"startTime":104.8,"endTime":107.58,"body":"it might be after death,"},{"startTime":107.58,"endTime":110.4,"body":"but I also mean human"},{"startTime":107.58,"endTime":110.4,"body":"bio-materials and human tissue,"},{"startTime":110.4,"endTime":113.83,"body":"so blood and plasma, hair, skin, dandruff,"},{"startTime":113.83,"endTime":115.21,"body":"all of the bits of your bodies"},{"startTime":115.21,"endTime":117.21,"body":"that, in various ways, are removed,"},{"startTime":117.21,"endTime":118.63,"body":"from an amputated leg"},{"startTime":118.63,"endTime":122.3,"body":"all the way down to bone, and"},{"startTime":118.63,"endTime":122.3,"body":"cells, and sperm, and ova."},{"startTime":122.3,"endTime":124.53,"body":"Before the advancements"},{"startTime":122.3,"endTime":124.53,"body":"of modern medicine,"},{"startTime":124.53,"endTime":126.38,"body":"body parts didn't have many uses."},{"startTime":126.38,"endTime":128.48,"body":"Teeth were used to make"},{"startTime":126.38,"endTime":128.48,"body":"false teeth for centuries,"},{"startTime":128.48,"endTime":129.313,"body":"that's true,"},{"startTime":129.313,"endTime":130.76,"body":"and hair was used for wigs,"},{"startTime":130.76,"endTime":131.87,"body":"but for many centuries,"},{"startTime":131.87,"endTime":134.84,"body":"parts of bodies didn't have"},{"startTime":131.87,"endTime":134.84,"body":"a great deal of value at all."},{"startTime":134.84,"endTime":137.12,"body":"They, and the whole"},{"startTime":134.84,"endTime":137.12,"body":"deceased body, however,"},{"startTime":137.12,"endTime":139.81,"body":"were the remaining symbol"},{"startTime":137.12,"endTime":139.81,"body":"of a person who had died,"},{"startTime":139.81,"endTime":142.29,"body":"and hence were treated"},{"startTime":139.81,"endTime":142.29,"body":"with care and respect"},{"startTime":142.29,"endTime":144.38,"body":"as part of the ritual surrounding death."},{"startTime":144.38,"endTime":145.53,"body":"The other main value of bodies,"},{"startTime":145.53,"endTime":147.06,"body":"as we'll come to see,"},{"startTime":147.06,"endTime":149.0,"body":"is that they were used for dissection"},{"startTime":149.0,"endTime":151.023,"body":"as part of the study of anatomy."},{"startTime":155.83,"endTime":157.35,"body":"So this is the sort of thing,"},{"startTime":157.35,"endTime":161.46,"body":"there's a huge range of"},{"startTime":157.35,"endTime":161.46,"body":"pictures of early dissection."},{"startTime":161.46,"endTime":162.33,"body":"It was, in fact,"},{"startTime":162.33,"endTime":163.58,"body":"one of the key ways in which, of course,"},{"startTime":163.58,"endTime":165.87,"body":"we came to learn about"},{"startTime":163.58,"endTime":165.87,"body":"how the body worked,"},{"startTime":165.87,"endTime":169.07,"body":"and is the foundation of"},{"startTime":165.87,"endTime":169.07,"body":"modern Western medicine."},{"startTime":169.07,"endTime":171.47,"body":"We also can see lots of other ways"},{"startTime":171.47,"endTime":173.22,"body":"in which bodies have been used."},{"startTime":173.22,"endTime":175.35,"body":"I don't think these"},{"startTime":173.22,"endTime":175.35,"body":"pictures are problematic,"},{"startTime":175.35,"endTime":176.53,"body":"I've tested them on my husband,"},{"startTime":176.53,"endTime":178.93,"body":"he said they made him feel a"},{"startTime":176.53,"endTime":178.93,"body":"little ick, but he was fine,"},{"startTime":178.93,"endTime":182.36,"body":"but the next picture is a"},{"startTime":178.93,"endTime":182.36,"body":"picture of a dissected ovary"},{"startTime":182.36,"endTime":185.113,"body":"that's preserved in the"},{"startTime":182.36,"endTime":185.113,"body":"Hunterian Museum in London."},{"startTime":186.04,"endTime":188.73,"body":"And so one of the things that"},{"startTime":186.04,"endTime":188.73,"body":"came from this dissection"},{"startTime":188.73,"endTime":191.12,"body":"was the creation of dissected bodies,"},{"startTime":191.12,"endTime":192.43,"body":"which would enable medical students"},{"startTime":192.43,"endTime":193.56,"body":"to study their structures"},{"startTime":193.56,"endTime":196.22,"body":"and come to understand their workings."},{"startTime":196.22,"endTime":197.46,"body":"The value of body parts,"},{"startTime":197.46,"endTime":199.01,"body":"and the uses to which they could be put,"},{"startTime":199.01,"endTime":201.34,"body":"exploded with the medical developments"},{"startTime":201.34,"endTime":203.31,"body":"that came over the 20th century."},{"startTime":203.31,"endTime":205.58,"body":"Discoveries in the field"},{"startTime":203.31,"endTime":205.58,"body":"of transplantation,"},{"startTime":205.58,"endTime":207.7,"body":"the overcoming of the"},{"startTime":205.58,"endTime":207.7,"body":"problems of rejection,"},{"startTime":207.7,"endTime":209.12,"body":"meant that parts of deceased bodies"},{"startTime":209.12,"endTime":211.91,"body":"could be transplanted into"},{"startTime":209.12,"endTime":211.91,"body":"other people's bodies."},{"startTime":211.91,"endTime":215.76,"body":"Living donations of kidneys"},{"startTime":211.91,"endTime":215.76,"body":"and lung became possible,"},{"startTime":215.76,"endTime":217.06,"body":"but we don't just donate those,"},{"startTime":217.06,"endTime":219.86,"body":"we donate blood, we donate"},{"startTime":217.06,"endTime":219.86,"body":"plasma, bone marrow,"},{"startTime":219.86,"endTime":221.75,"body":"and post-death, bone, skin,"},{"startTime":221.75,"endTime":224.47,"body":"many other bodily structures"},{"startTime":221.75,"endTime":224.47,"body":"can all be removed"},{"startTime":224.47,"endTime":226.04,"body":"and given to others to"},{"startTime":224.47,"endTime":226.04,"body":"improve their health"},{"startTime":226.04,"endTime":227.43,"body":"or even save their lives,"},{"startTime":227.43,"endTime":229.47,"body":"so I imagine we're all familiar with that"},{"startTime":229.47,"endTime":230.983,"body":"as a use of body parts."},{"startTime":232.74,"endTime":234.78,"body":"Bio-materials extend also, though,"},{"startTime":234.78,"endTime":237.23,"body":"to material that we remove or lose"},{"startTime":237.23,"endTime":238.57,"body":"in the course of our lives,"},{"startTime":238.57,"endTime":240.26,"body":"so by that, I mean things that we shed,"},{"startTime":240.26,"endTime":243.0,"body":"fingernails, dandruff, skin cells,"},{"startTime":243.0,"endTime":244.81,"body":"and we often remove tissue for testing"},{"startTime":244.81,"endTime":246.55,"body":"when a disease is suspected,"},{"startTime":246.55,"endTime":248.06,"body":"and this is precisely why, in fact,"},{"startTime":248.06,"endTime":250.61,"body":"we give our tissue to"},{"startTime":248.06,"endTime":250.61,"body":"doctors and hospitals,"},{"startTime":250.61,"endTime":251.87,"body":"they test our blood,"},{"startTime":251.87,"endTime":254.5,"body":"they biopsy what they think"},{"startTime":251.87,"endTime":254.5,"body":"might be a tumor, and so on,"},{"startTime":254.5,"endTime":256.55,"body":"these are ways in which"},{"startTime":254.5,"endTime":256.55,"body":"parts come out of our body"},{"startTime":256.55,"endTime":259.66,"body":"and go elsewhere for all sorts of reasons."},{"startTime":259.66,"endTime":261.18,"body":"It's also why, at birth,"},{"startTime":261.18,"endTime":263.84,"body":"a blood sample is taken"},{"startTime":261.18,"endTime":263.84,"body":"from almost every child,"},{"startTime":263.84,"endTime":266.573,"body":"and is tested for a range"},{"startTime":263.84,"endTime":266.573,"body":"of conditions, like PKU,"},{"startTime":267.43,"endTime":269.19,"body":"which is a means of"},{"startTime":267.43,"endTime":269.19,"body":"screening for diseases,"},{"startTime":269.19,"endTime":271.04,"body":"which, if caught early, we can treat."},{"startTime":272.46,"endTime":273.83,"body":"But why would I also be thinking"},{"startTime":273.83,"endTime":275.35,"body":"about the loss of bio-materials,"},{"startTime":275.35,"endTime":277.42,"body":"why have I specifically mentioned that?"},{"startTime":277.42,"endTime":279.87,"body":"One key reason is that"},{"startTime":277.42,"endTime":279.87,"body":"most of our body parts,"},{"startTime":279.87,"endTime":281.08,"body":"almost all of them,"},{"startTime":281.08,"endTime":282.5,"body":"and almost all of our bio-materials,"},{"startTime":282.5,"endTime":284.29,"body":"contain our DNA,"},{"startTime":284.29,"endTime":286.19,"body":"and our DNA has the potential"},{"startTime":286.19,"endTime":288.613,"body":"to reveal a great deal"},{"startTime":286.19,"endTime":288.613,"body":"of information about us,"},{"startTime":288.613,"endTime":290.94,"body":"from our predisposition to diseases,"},{"startTime":290.94,"endTime":292.89,"body":"whether we're carriers"},{"startTime":290.94,"endTime":292.89,"body":"of a genetic mutation"},{"startTime":292.89,"endTime":293.9,"body":"that causes a disease,"},{"startTime":293.9,"endTime":296.32,"body":"our familial relationships, and so on."},{"startTime":296.32,"endTime":297.71,"body":"And our DNA, as we all know,"},{"startTime":297.71,"endTime":301.01,"body":"can also be used to match"},{"startTime":297.71,"endTime":301.01,"body":"us to samples of our tissue,"},{"startTime":301.01,"endTime":302.73,"body":"so that's the basis of forensics,"},{"startTime":302.73,"endTime":304.23,"body":"that's how it works."},{"startTime":304.23,"endTime":307.11,"body":"Some tissue can also reveal"},{"startTime":304.23,"endTime":307.11,"body":"other things about us,"},{"startTime":307.11,"endTime":309.12,"body":"it might reveal our blood alcohol level,"},{"startTime":309.12,"endTime":311.71,"body":"or whether we've taken drugs in the past,"},{"startTime":311.71,"endTime":313.22,"body":"and so these might be valuable"},{"startTime":313.22,"endTime":316.61,"body":"to police and others who"},{"startTime":313.22,"endTime":316.61,"body":"are investigating crimes."},{"startTime":316.61,"endTime":317.88,"body":"And the reason I draw this out is,"},{"startTime":317.88,"endTime":319.53,"body":"often, when we think about bio-materials,"},{"startTime":319.53,"endTime":321.31,"body":"particularly in the academic literature,"},{"startTime":321.31,"endTime":323.93,"body":"we really focus on the research"},{"startTime":321.31,"endTime":323.93,"body":"use, and the transplant use,"},{"startTime":323.93,"endTime":326.28,"body":"but in actual fact, when"},{"startTime":323.93,"endTime":326.28,"body":"you begin to think about it,"},{"startTime":326.28,"endTime":328.85,"body":"body parts get used in"},{"startTime":326.28,"endTime":328.85,"body":"all sorts of contexts"},{"startTime":328.85,"endTime":329.963,"body":"all over the world."},{"startTime":333.36,"endTime":335.32,"body":"And so it's this, it's DNA,"},{"startTime":335.32,"endTime":338.3,"body":"and if anybody's ever"},{"startTime":335.32,"endTime":338.3,"body":"seen the film \"Gattaca,\""},{"startTime":338.3,"endTime":339.75,"body":"that's exactly what they're doing."},{"startTime":339.75,"endTime":341.29,"body":"The reason many of those characters"},{"startTime":341.29,"endTime":342.86,"body":"are actually disposing"},{"startTime":341.29,"endTime":342.86,"body":"with their materials,"},{"startTime":342.86,"endTime":344.81,"body":"they're very careful about"},{"startTime":342.86,"endTime":344.81,"body":"not to leave anything anywhere"},{"startTime":344.81,"endTime":346.33,"body":"is because, in doing so,"},{"startTime":346.33,"endTime":348.32,"body":"they'd be leaving their"},{"startTime":346.33,"endTime":348.32,"body":"information, potentially,"},{"startTime":348.32,"endTime":349.34,"body":"all over the place,"},{"startTime":349.34,"endTime":351.77,"body":"and someone could come along,"},{"startTime":349.34,"endTime":351.77,"body":"and take it, and test it,"},{"startTime":351.77,"endTime":353.02,"body":"and find out things about them,"},{"startTime":353.02,"endTime":354.37,"body":"that's their great concern."},{"startTime":355.42,"endTime":357.4,"body":"So what I think you can"},{"startTime":355.42,"endTime":357.4,"body":"see emerging from this"},{"startTime":357.4,"endTime":358.81,"body":"is there's a range of interests here."},{"startTime":358.81,"endTime":360.47,"body":"We have researchers who have interests,"},{"startTime":360.47,"endTime":362.78,"body":"we have people who have illnesses"},{"startTime":362.78,"endTime":365.54,"body":"are interested in the research"},{"startTime":362.78,"endTime":365.54,"body":"that produces treatments,"},{"startTime":365.54,"endTime":367.11,"body":"but also in transplants,"},{"startTime":367.11,"endTime":369.24,"body":"the community has an interest in tissue"},{"startTime":369.24,"endTime":370.39,"body":"because we want access to it"},{"startTime":370.39,"endTime":373.78,"body":"for forensic purposes, and"},{"startTime":370.39,"endTime":373.78,"body":"criminal prosecutions, and so on,"},{"startTime":373.78,"endTime":375.79,"body":"and we can also see that people themselves"},{"startTime":375.79,"endTime":377.01,"body":"have particular interests,"},{"startTime":377.01,"endTime":378.89,"body":"partly because their bodies"},{"startTime":377.01,"endTime":378.89,"body":"are precious to them,"},{"startTime":378.89,"endTime":380.65,"body":"they're important psychologically,"},{"startTime":380.65,"endTime":383.05,"body":"but also, these privacy"},{"startTime":380.65,"endTime":383.05,"body":"concerns are coming out."},{"startTime":384.79,"endTime":387.84,"body":"The Medical Research Council"},{"startTime":384.79,"endTime":387.84,"body":"says that human tissue research"},{"startTime":387.84,"endTime":391.07,"body":"is crucial to increase our"},{"startTime":387.84,"endTime":391.07,"body":"understanding of disease,"},{"startTime":391.07,"endTime":393.62,"body":"it helps us develop new treatments,"},{"startTime":393.62,"endTime":395.52,"body":"so it's vitally important"},{"startTime":395.52,"endTime":397.46,"body":"that researchers have access to tissue"},{"startTime":397.46,"endTime":398.7,"body":"because this is what they use"},{"startTime":398.7,"endTime":402.02,"body":"as the basis of a lot of medical research."},{"startTime":402.02,"endTime":403.42,"body":"And in particular,"},{"startTime":403.42,"endTime":404.64,"body":"we now see the development"},{"startTime":404.64,"endTime":406.53,"body":"of very large collections"},{"startTime":404.64,"endTime":406.53,"body":"of bio-materials,"},{"startTime":406.53,"endTime":408.68,"body":"what we call bio-repositories,"},{"startTime":406.53,"endTime":408.68,"body":"or bio-banks,"},{"startTime":408.68,"endTime":410.06,"body":"like UK Biobank,"},{"startTime":410.06,"endTime":412.05,"body":"and these are particularly important"},{"startTime":412.05,"endTime":414.06,"body":"because they allow us to"},{"startTime":412.05,"endTime":414.06,"body":"particular types of research"},{"startTime":414.06,"endTime":415.46,"body":"that are extremely valuable."},{"startTime":416.45,"endTime":418.76,"body":"But it isn't just in the"},{"startTime":416.45,"endTime":418.76,"body":"public research sphere"},{"startTime":418.76,"endTime":420.01,"body":"that we see people using tissue,"},{"startTime":420.01,"endTime":422.283,"body":"there's actually a big market in tissue."},{"startTime":423.22,"endTime":426.93,"body":"Bio-materials are bought"},{"startTime":423.22,"endTime":426.93,"body":"and sold all the time,"},{"startTime":426.93,"endTime":428.7,"body":"and they're bought and"},{"startTime":426.93,"endTime":428.7,"body":"sold in a range of ways."},{"startTime":428.7,"endTime":429.75,"body":"If you are a researcher,"},{"startTime":429.75,"endTime":433.29,"body":"you can look for a particular"},{"startTime":429.75,"endTime":433.29,"body":"type of cancer tissue,"},{"startTime":433.29,"endTime":435.25,"body":"and you can order it"},{"startTime":433.29,"endTime":435.25,"body":"online, you can pay for it,"},{"startTime":435.25,"endTime":436.16,"body":"and it'll come to your lab,"},{"startTime":436.16,"endTime":437.65,"body":"and you use it in your research,"},{"startTime":437.65,"endTime":439.315,"body":"there is a market."},{"startTime":439.315,"endTime":443.15,"body":"One report valued the global"},{"startTime":439.315,"endTime":443.15,"body":"cell line development market"},{"startTime":443.15,"endTime":445.48,"body":"at close to a billion pounds,"},{"startTime":445.48,"endTime":449.283,"body":"and predicted its value to"},{"startTime":445.48,"endTime":449.283,"body":"increase over time exponentially."},{"startTime":450.51,"endTime":452.01,"body":"In particular, it's cell lines,"},{"startTime":452.01,"endTime":455.36,"body":"the idea of a cell line"},{"startTime":452.01,"endTime":455.36,"body":"is particularly valuable."},{"startTime":455.36,"endTime":457.4,"body":"These are particular types of tissue,"},{"startTime":457.4,"endTime":458.84,"body":"which, once they've been manipulated,"},{"startTime":458.84,"endTime":461.3,"body":"they're able to"},{"startTime":458.84,"endTime":461.3,"body":"self-replicate indefinitely,"},{"startTime":461.3,"endTime":464.19,"body":"and so they're a particularly"},{"startTime":461.3,"endTime":464.19,"body":"vital resource for research."},{"startTime":464.19,"endTime":466.56,"body":"And you might actually"},{"startTime":464.19,"endTime":466.56,"body":"have heard of some of them,"},{"startTime":466.56,"endTime":468.34,"body":"and the reason is some are so important,"},{"startTime":468.34,"endTime":470.45,"body":"they're both famous, but also infamous."},{"startTime":470.45,"endTime":473.6,"body":"One that you might have heard"},{"startTime":470.45,"endTime":473.6,"body":"of is the HeLa cell line,"},{"startTime":473.6,"endTime":474.72,"body":"which was derived from the cells"},{"startTime":474.72,"endTime":476.49,"body":"of a woman called Henrietta Lacks."},{"startTime":476.49,"endTime":478.32,"body":"It was a vital part of the development"},{"startTime":478.32,"endTime":481.26,"body":"of the Salk vaccine for polio,"},{"startTime":481.26,"endTime":483.19,"body":"but it was also taken without her consent,"},{"startTime":483.19,"endTime":485.97,"body":"and her family have, in"},{"startTime":483.19,"endTime":485.97,"body":"the years subsequently,"},{"startTime":485.97,"endTime":487.42,"body":"really fought the use of this,"},{"startTime":487.42,"endTime":488.9,"body":"but it's widespread throughout the world,"},{"startTime":488.9,"endTime":491.25,"body":"HeLa is one of the most"},{"startTime":488.9,"endTime":491.25,"body":"widely-used cell lines."},{"startTime":492.26,"endTime":494.38,"body":"Similarly, the Mo cell line,"},{"startTime":494.38,"endTime":496.13,"body":"this was, again, a really"},{"startTime":494.38,"endTime":496.13,"body":"important cell line"},{"startTime":496.13,"endTime":498.16,"body":"that was created without proper consent"},{"startTime":498.16,"endTime":500.48,"body":"from the person whose cells were used,"},{"startTime":500.48,"endTime":502.99,"body":"and that was the basis of"},{"startTime":500.48,"endTime":502.99,"body":"litigation in the 1990s,"},{"startTime":502.99,"endTime":505.1,"body":"when the man discovered that"},{"startTime":502.99,"endTime":505.1,"body":"his tissue had been used"},{"startTime":505.1,"endTime":508.01,"body":"without his consent, without"},{"startTime":505.1,"endTime":508.01,"body":"his knowledge for this,"},{"startTime":508.01,"endTime":509.08,"body":"actually brought a claim,"},{"startTime":509.08,"endTime":511.7,"body":"he described himself as"},{"startTime":509.08,"endTime":511.7,"body":"having felt violated by this,"},{"startTime":511.7,"endTime":512.83,"body":"he was offended."},{"startTime":512.83,"endTime":515.82,"body":"He was also offended that the"},{"startTime":512.83,"endTime":515.82,"body":"researchers had patented it,"},{"startTime":515.82,"endTime":517.84,"body":"and were set to make large"},{"startTime":515.82,"endTime":517.84,"body":"amounts of money from it,"},{"startTime":517.84,"endTime":520.48,"body":"and he was excluded from this."},{"startTime":520.48,"endTime":522.63,"body":"So human parts can be valuable,"},{"startTime":522.63,"endTime":525.15,"body":"and when something is"},{"startTime":522.63,"endTime":525.15,"body":"valuable, and also scarce,"},{"startTime":525.15,"endTime":527.84,"body":"we see demand, we see demand emerging."},{"startTime":527.84,"endTime":530.95,"body":"So like the body snatchers of"},{"startTime":527.84,"endTime":530.95,"body":"the 18th and 19th centuries,"},{"startTime":530.95,"endTime":533.28,"body":"what we see is that researchers"},{"startTime":530.95,"endTime":533.28,"body":"and medics, on occasion,"},{"startTime":533.28,"endTime":535.71,"body":"have taken it without consent,"},{"startTime":535.71,"endTime":537.26,"body":"or at least what we see"},{"startTime":537.26,"endTime":538.54,"body":"is this market stepping in,"},{"startTime":538.54,"endTime":541.74,"body":"this demand being met"},{"startTime":538.54,"endTime":541.74,"body":"by people supplying it."},{"startTime":541.74,"endTime":543.48,"body":"Some of that supply is"},{"startTime":541.74,"endTime":543.48,"body":"absolutely legitimate,"},{"startTime":543.48,"endTime":545.02,"body":"there's no question that's the case,"},{"startTime":545.02,"endTime":547.74,"body":"but my point here is that"},{"startTime":545.02,"endTime":547.74,"body":"it isn't a simple situation,"},{"startTime":547.74,"endTime":551.03,"body":"it's one in which there are"},{"startTime":547.74,"endTime":551.03,"body":"complex interacting interests,"},{"startTime":551.03,"endTime":553.603,"body":"and a desire to possess it and to use it."},{"startTime":555.66,"endTime":558.19,"body":"There are completely different situations"},{"startTime":558.19,"endTime":560.06,"body":"in which tissue is used"},{"startTime":560.06,"endTime":561.92,"body":"which you might not think about."},{"startTime":561.92,"endTime":563.98,"body":"So an entirely different one"},{"startTime":563.98,"endTime":565.22,"body":"is the commercial context"},{"startTime":565.22,"endTime":568.03,"body":"in which there are the"},{"startTime":565.22,"endTime":568.03,"body":"creation of artistic works"},{"startTime":568.03,"endTime":569.29,"body":"from body parts."},{"startTime":569.29,"endTime":571.17,"body":"If anybody's ever heard of Marc Quinn,"},{"startTime":571.17,"endTime":574.27,"body":"he makes models of his own"},{"startTime":571.17,"endTime":574.27,"body":"head, and of his family's heads,"},{"startTime":574.27,"endTime":575.96,"body":"from his own blood,"},{"startTime":575.96,"endTime":580.133,"body":"and one of these sculptures"},{"startTime":575.96,"endTime":580.133,"body":"sold for 300,000 pounds in 2012."},{"startTime":581.97,"endTime":584.853,"body":"Another example if Gunther"},{"startTime":581.97,"endTime":584.853,"body":"von Hagens' Body Worlds."},{"startTime":585.88,"endTime":587.713,"body":"Body Worlds is,"},{"startTime":588.79,"endTime":591.95,"body":"it's a show where von"},{"startTime":588.79,"endTime":591.95,"body":"Hagens developed a method"},{"startTime":591.95,"endTime":594.89,"body":"for plastinating human"},{"startTime":591.95,"endTime":594.89,"body":"bodies, preserving them."},{"startTime":594.89,"endTime":595.723,"body":"If you've ever been,"},{"startTime":595.723,"endTime":598.08,"body":"it is essentially a"},{"startTime":595.723,"endTime":598.08,"body":"museum full, a show full"},{"startTime":598.08,"endTime":599.8,"body":"of human bodies."},{"startTime":599.8,"endTime":603.17,"body":"I've tried to choose a slightly"},{"startTime":599.8,"endTime":603.17,"body":"less confronting image,"},{"startTime":603.17,"endTime":604.9,"body":"but they're skin is removed,"},{"startTime":604.9,"endTime":607.38,"body":"you can see their internal workings,"},{"startTime":607.38,"endTime":610.03,"body":"and what he says is his"},{"startTime":607.38,"endTime":610.03,"body":"goal was to educate,"},{"startTime":610.03,"endTime":612.38,"body":"but there's definitely a bit"},{"startTime":610.03,"endTime":612.38,"body":"of the P.T. Barnum about him,"},{"startTime":612.38,"endTime":613.718,"body":"he's certainly a showman as well,"},{"startTime":613.718,"endTime":617.34,"body":"there is this entertainment dimension"},{"startTime":617.34,"endTime":619.333,"body":"to the use of bodies there, for sure."},{"startTime":620.21,"endTime":622.81,"body":"Similarly, performance artist Orlan,"},{"startTime":622.81,"endTime":625.55,"body":"she would have surgery performed on her,"},{"startTime":625.55,"endTime":626.68,"body":"and have it filmed,"},{"startTime":626.68,"endTime":628.51,"body":"and she would then make artistic works"},{"startTime":628.51,"endTime":631.73,"body":"from the pieces of tissue that"},{"startTime":628.51,"endTime":631.73,"body":"were removed from her body."},{"startTime":631.73,"endTime":633.0,"body":"Jenny Holzer is another artist,"},{"startTime":633.0,"endTime":635.61,"body":"she uses human bones in her work."},{"startTime":635.61,"endTime":638.3,"body":"There are indeed even cases"},{"startTime":638.3,"endTime":640.363,"body":"of quite scandalous uses of bodies,"},{"startTime":641.353,"endTime":642.66,"body":"one particularly unpleasant case"},{"startTime":642.66,"endTime":644.73,"body":"from a number of decades ago"},{"startTime":644.73,"endTime":646.9,"body":"used preserved fetuses in earrings,"},{"startTime":646.9,"endTime":649.24,"body":"but the police were involved"},{"startTime":649.24,"endTime":651.95,"body":"because it was a matter of public decency,"},{"startTime":651.95,"endTime":653.65,"body":"because it was so problematic,"},{"startTime":653.65,"endTime":657.16,"body":"because these uses of tissue"},{"startTime":653.65,"endTime":657.16,"body":"can also be distressing,"},{"startTime":657.16,"endTime":660.37,"body":"and they can be confronting"},{"startTime":657.16,"endTime":660.37,"body":"to people, and offensive."},{"startTime":660.37,"endTime":663.14,"body":"One of the other collections,"},{"startTime":660.37,"endTime":663.14,"body":"or uses of tissue"},{"startTime":663.14,"endTime":664.46,"body":"of which you might not be aware"},{"startTime":664.46,"endTime":666.32,"body":"that is particularly distressing"},{"startTime":666.32,"endTime":670.13,"body":"is the collection of"},{"startTime":666.32,"endTime":670.13,"body":"indigenous remains in museums,"},{"startTime":670.13,"endTime":673.97,"body":"where, for many years in"},{"startTime":670.13,"endTime":673.97,"body":"the 18th and 19th century,"},{"startTime":673.97,"endTime":675.75,"body":"body parts from indigenous communities"},{"startTime":675.75,"endTime":677.08,"body":"were taken from those communities,"},{"startTime":677.08,"endTime":678.84,"body":"either disinterred,"},{"startTime":678.84,"endTime":680.12,"body":"or in some cases,"},{"startTime":680.12,"endTime":683.1,"body":"even taken from people who were"},{"startTime":680.12,"endTime":683.1,"body":"killed for their body parts,"},{"startTime":683.1,"endTime":685.03,"body":"and brought back into collections,"},{"startTime":685.03,"endTime":686.55,"body":"and for quite some time now,"},{"startTime":686.55,"endTime":687.76,"body":"there have been measures taken,"},{"startTime":687.76,"endTime":689.94,"body":"moves being made by these communities"},{"startTime":689.94,"endTime":692.59,"body":"to have those parts repatriated to them,"},{"startTime":692.59,"endTime":693.94,"body":"to bring them back to rest."},{"startTime":695.5,"endTime":696.55,"body":"So what I think this shows up"},{"startTime":696.55,"endTime":698.59,"body":"is that there are not just small questions"},{"startTime":698.59,"endTime":699.423,"body":"about research use,"},{"startTime":699.423,"endTime":700.256,"body":"but in fact,"},{"startTime":700.256,"endTime":703.31,"body":"we have this panoply of ways"},{"startTime":700.256,"endTime":703.31,"body":"in which tissue is used,"},{"startTime":703.31,"endTime":705.09,"body":"and this huge range of people"},{"startTime":705.09,"endTime":707.29,"body":"who have different interests"},{"startTime":705.09,"endTime":707.29,"body":"of different kinds,"},{"startTime":707.29,"endTime":710.16,"body":"and when we have complex"},{"startTime":707.29,"endTime":710.16,"body":"interactions of interests,"},{"startTime":710.16,"endTime":712.86,"body":"of course we're going to get conflicts."},{"startTime":712.86,"endTime":713.693,"body":"And what this does"},{"startTime":713.693,"endTime":714.863,"body":"is it raises a range of questions"},{"startTime":714.863,"endTime":716.8,"body":"that I think the law needs"},{"startTime":714.863,"endTime":716.8,"body":"to be able to answer,"},{"startTime":716.8,"endTime":717.633,"body":"and what I'm going to show you"},{"startTime":717.633,"endTime":720.06,"body":"is I don't think that it always can."},{"startTime":720.06,"endTime":721.16,"body":"So one question would be"},{"startTime":721.16,"endTime":723.19,"body":"who is entitled, in this mix,"},{"startTime":723.19,"endTime":725.01,"body":"to possess that tissue?"},{"startTime":725.01,"endTime":726.31,"body":"Can the tissue be sold?"},{"startTime":726.31,"endTime":728.93,"body":"If it is sold, what are"},{"startTime":726.31,"endTime":728.93,"body":"the rules about that?"},{"startTime":728.93,"endTime":729.94,"body":"Can it be bequeathed,"},{"startTime":729.94,"endTime":733.09,"body":"can I pass on my kidney"},{"startTime":729.94,"endTime":733.09,"body":"to you through my will?"},{"startTime":733.09,"endTime":735.11,"body":"Can other people access my tissue,"},{"startTime":735.11,"endTime":736.62,"body":"to get access to it?"},{"startTime":736.62,"endTime":738.97,"body":"So if someone wants to check paternity,"},{"startTime":738.97,"endTime":740.6,"body":"can they access a tissue sample,"},{"startTime":740.6,"endTime":742.4,"body":"and if so, when and how?"},{"startTime":742.4,"endTime":745.84,"body":"What sorts of rights do"},{"startTime":742.4,"endTime":745.84,"body":"family members have to tissue,"},{"startTime":745.84,"endTime":747.89,"body":"when they might need access"},{"startTime":745.84,"endTime":747.89,"body":"for their own health,"},{"startTime":747.89,"endTime":750.57,"body":"say to find out which particular mutation"},{"startTime":750.57,"endTime":753.63,"body":"runs in their family for"},{"startTime":750.57,"endTime":753.63,"body":"a particular disease?"},{"startTime":753.63,"endTime":755.13,"body":"And who should share in the profits"},{"startTime":755.13,"endTime":756.98,"body":"of any profitable research?"},{"startTime":756.98,"endTime":760.07,"body":"Does that matter, is that"},{"startTime":756.98,"endTime":760.07,"body":"a matter for property law?"},{"startTime":760.07,"endTime":761.84,"body":"So fundamentally, what I'm saying is,"},{"startTime":761.84,"endTime":763.6,"body":"the question we need"},{"startTime":761.84,"endTime":763.6,"body":"to think about here is"},{"startTime":763.6,"endTime":765.24,"body":"what control ought people to have"},{"startTime":765.24,"endTime":768.19,"body":"over their bodily"},{"startTime":765.24,"endTime":768.19,"body":"materials, their body parts,"},{"startTime":768.19,"endTime":770.37,"body":"once they're removed from them?"},{"startTime":770.37,"endTime":772.94,"body":"So let's see how the current"},{"startTime":770.37,"endTime":772.94,"body":"law does answer these questions"},{"startTime":772.94,"endTime":775.493,"body":"and how often I think it fails to do so."},{"startTime":777.35,"endTime":778.66,"body":"I'm an historian as well as a lawyer,"},{"startTime":778.66,"endTime":780.1,"body":"so I always think it's important"},{"startTime":780.1,"endTime":782.13,"body":"that we want to see"},{"startTime":780.1,"endTime":782.13,"body":"where the law came from,"},{"startTime":782.13,"endTime":784.01,"body":"but it's particularly important"},{"startTime":784.01,"endTime":787.413,"body":"in the context of how the"},{"startTime":784.01,"endTime":787.413,"body":"law regulates body parts."},{"startTime":788.31,"endTime":789.61,"body":"As I said, for a long time,"},{"startTime":789.61,"endTime":792.35,"body":"bodies and their parts didn't"},{"startTime":789.61,"endTime":792.35,"body":"have any obvious value,"},{"startTime":792.35,"endTime":793.49,"body":"and aside from their importance"},{"startTime":793.49,"endTime":795.36,"body":"as a symbol of the person who lived,"},{"startTime":795.36,"endTime":798.45,"body":"and as a means to learn"},{"startTime":795.36,"endTime":798.45,"body":"about the workings of bodies,"},{"startTime":798.45,"endTime":800.3,"body":"but there wasn't much else of value,"},{"startTime":800.3,"endTime":802.03,"body":"so we don't see a lot of case law,"},{"startTime":802.03,"endTime":803.94,"body":"but we have some unusual cases"},{"startTime":803.94,"endTime":806.76,"body":"that really set the"},{"startTime":803.94,"endTime":806.76,"body":"foundations for the law"},{"startTime":806.76,"endTime":808.25,"body":"when we came into the 20th century,"},{"startTime":808.25,"endTime":809.42,"body":"when things really exploded."},{"startTime":809.42,"endTime":811.89,"body":"And so it's important to"},{"startTime":809.42,"endTime":811.89,"body":"understand those origins"},{"startTime":811.89,"endTime":815.223,"body":"to understand what the questions"},{"startTime":811.89,"endTime":815.223,"body":"are and what the debate is."},{"startTime":818.13,"endTime":820.49,"body":"So let's take a look at"},{"startTime":818.13,"endTime":820.49,"body":"dissection for a moment,"},{"startTime":820.49,"endTime":821.5,"body":"because this, in part,"},{"startTime":821.5,"endTime":823.97,"body":"is the context in which"},{"startTime":821.5,"endTime":823.97,"body":"these early cases emerge."},{"startTime":823.97,"endTime":825.51,"body":"For a long time,"},{"startTime":825.51,"endTime":829.12,"body":"dissection was regarded as"},{"startTime":825.51,"endTime":829.12,"body":"a desecration of the body."},{"startTime":829.12,"endTime":832.37,"body":"Across cultures, but particularly"},{"startTime":829.12,"endTime":832.37,"body":"in Christian England."},{"startTime":832.37,"endTime":833.51,"body":"for many centuries,"},{"startTime":833.51,"endTime":838.51,"body":"the idea of dissecting a"},{"startTime":833.51,"endTime":838.51,"body":"body was offensive to people."},{"startTime":838.74,"endTime":840.42,"body":"But at the same time,"},{"startTime":840.42,"endTime":841.84,"body":"medical students, doctors"},{"startTime":841.84,"endTime":843.87,"body":"were wanting to learn"},{"startTime":841.84,"endTime":843.87,"body":"about how the body worked,"},{"startTime":843.87,"endTime":847.68,"body":"and needing access to corpses,"},{"startTime":843.87,"endTime":847.68,"body":"to cadavers, to body parts,"},{"startTime":847.68,"endTime":848.88,"body":"to study them and learn."},{"startTime":849.76,"endTime":851.6,"body":"So from the 14th and"},{"startTime":849.76,"endTime":851.6,"body":"15th centuries onwards,"},{"startTime":851.6,"endTime":854.07,"body":"the study of medicine"},{"startTime":851.6,"endTime":854.07,"body":"was increasingly driven"},{"startTime":854.07,"endTime":857.14,"body":"by this desire to access bodies,"},{"startTime":857.14,"endTime":858.44,"body":"and so what we saw there"},{"startTime":858.44,"endTime":863.13,"body":"was the first real clash"},{"startTime":858.44,"endTime":863.13,"body":"between demand and supply."},{"startTime":863.13,"endTime":865.58,"body":"In England, the practice of dissection,"},{"startTime":865.58,"endTime":866.413,"body":"by the 18th century,"},{"startTime":866.413,"endTime":867.29,"body":"was widespread,"},{"startTime":867.29,"endTime":869.25,"body":"but there wasn't an easy supply,"},{"startTime":869.25,"endTime":871.98,"body":"and some of you may well know"},{"startTime":869.25,"endTime":871.98,"body":"where the supply came from,"},{"startTime":871.98,"endTime":875.3,"body":"it came from the theft of"},{"startTime":871.98,"endTime":875.3,"body":"bodies, from grave robbing,"},{"startTime":875.3,"endTime":876.133,"body":"and eventually,"},{"startTime":876.133,"endTime":878.12,"body":"when Burke and Hare, and"},{"startTime":876.133,"endTime":878.12,"body":"others entered the fray,"},{"startTime":878.12,"endTime":881.883,"body":"from the murder of the living"},{"startTime":878.12,"endTime":881.883,"body":"to meet this growing demand."},{"startTime":882.85,"endTime":886.57,"body":"There wasn't any way that the"},{"startTime":882.85,"endTime":886.57,"body":"law was providing any supply,"},{"startTime":886.57,"endTime":889.92,"body":"so it really was very much a black market"},{"startTime":889.92,"endTime":890.96,"body":"that was emerging here."},{"startTime":890.96,"endTime":893.9,"body":"We saw the passage of"},{"startTime":890.96,"endTime":893.9,"body":"the Murder Act in 1752,"},{"startTime":893.9,"endTime":896.52,"body":"that allowed judges to"},{"startTime":893.9,"endTime":896.52,"body":"sentence convicted murderers,"},{"startTime":896.52,"endTime":899.03,"body":"to be dissected as an extra punishment."},{"startTime":899.03,"endTime":901.64,"body":"In one way, it gave a bit of a supply,"},{"startTime":901.64,"endTime":903.57,"body":"but the problem was it"},{"startTime":901.64,"endTime":903.57,"body":"made dissection of bodies"},{"startTime":903.57,"endTime":905.31,"body":"even more problematic,"},{"startTime":905.31,"endTime":907.53,"body":"it made it seem like not"},{"startTime":905.31,"endTime":907.53,"body":"only was it a desecration,"},{"startTime":907.53,"endTime":910.483,"body":"it was now really firmly"},{"startTime":907.53,"endTime":910.483,"body":"constructed as a punishment."},{"startTime":912.21,"endTime":914.87,"body":"In 1828, a parliamentary"},{"startTime":912.21,"endTime":914.87,"body":"select committee met"},{"startTime":914.87,"endTime":915.93,"body":"to try to deal with the problem,"},{"startTime":915.93,"endTime":918.53,"body":"what could they do"},{"startTime":915.93,"endTime":918.53,"body":"about this great problem"},{"startTime":918.53,"endTime":922.69,"body":"of body parts and bodies"},{"startTime":918.53,"endTime":922.69,"body":"being stolen from corpses."},{"startTime":922.69,"endTime":926.059,"body":"They spoke to a number of"},{"startTime":922.69,"endTime":926.059,"body":"retired resurrectionists,"},{"startTime":926.059,"endTime":927.36,"body":"as they called themselves."},{"startTime":927.36,"endTime":931.3,"body":"One said that he stole more"},{"startTime":927.36,"endTime":931.3,"body":"than 1,000 adult corpses"},{"startTime":931.3,"endTime":933.16,"body":"and almost 200 of children"},{"startTime":933.16,"endTime":934.663,"body":"over the course of four years,"},{"startTime":935.62,"endTime":938.52,"body":"while prominent surgeon of"},{"startTime":935.62,"endTime":938.52,"body":"the time, Sir Astley Cooper,"},{"startTime":938.52,"endTime":941.43,"body":"boasted that he could get the"},{"startTime":938.52,"endTime":941.43,"body":"corpse of anybody he wanted."},{"startTime":941.43,"endTime":942.38,"body":"So if you died, he said,"},{"startTime":942.38,"endTime":944.28,"body":"I'll be able to get you if I want you."},{"startTime":946.43,"endTime":947.263,"body":"The next year,"},{"startTime":947.263,"endTime":948.75,"body":"Burke, the famous body snatcher,"},{"startTime":948.75,"endTime":951.823,"body":"was sentenced, and eventually executed."},{"startTime":952.757,"endTime":954.24,"body":"It still didn't make"},{"startTime":952.757,"endTime":954.24,"body":"much difference though,"},{"startTime":954.24,"endTime":955.34,"body":"they didn't really deal with the problem,"},{"startTime":955.34,"endTime":959.08,"body":"and it took the violent death"},{"startTime":955.34,"endTime":959.08,"body":"of a 14 year-old boy in 1831"},{"startTime":959.08,"endTime":962.323,"body":"to really spur the law to"},{"startTime":959.08,"endTime":962.323,"body":"deal with this problem."},{"startTime":963.38,"endTime":965.04,"body":"And what they did was,"},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":968.38,"body":"is they produced what was"},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":968.38,"body":"eventually called the Anatomy Act,"},{"startTime":968.38,"endTime":970.43,"body":"the Anatomy Act of 1832,"},{"startTime":970.43,"endTime":973.34,"body":"and this tried to meet the supply,"},{"startTime":973.34,"endTime":975.4,"body":"it tried to meet this demand"},{"startTime":975.4,"endTime":977.22,"body":"by saying that those in lawful possession"},{"startTime":977.22,"endTime":978.95,"body":"of an unclaimed body"},{"startTime":978.95,"endTime":981.523,"body":"could hand it over for"},{"startTime":978.95,"endTime":981.523,"body":"study, for dissection,"},{"startTime":982.37,"endTime":984.09,"body":"as long as no relatives objected."},{"startTime":984.09,"endTime":984.923,"body":"Now, this seems like"},{"startTime":984.923,"endTime":987.15,"body":"a bit of a reasonable solution"},{"startTime":984.923,"endTime":987.15,"body":"in some ways, perhaps,"},{"startTime":987.15,"endTime":989.3,"body":"if this is done with"},{"startTime":987.15,"endTime":989.3,"body":"consent, no one's objecting,"},{"startTime":989.3,"endTime":990.51,"body":"but the reality, of course,"},{"startTime":990.51,"endTime":993.07,"body":"was that these unclaimed bodies"},{"startTime":990.51,"endTime":993.07,"body":"were the bodies of the poor,"},{"startTime":993.07,"endTime":993.99,"body":"because they're unclaimed"},{"startTime":993.99,"endTime":996.78,"body":"because people couldn't"},{"startTime":993.99,"endTime":996.78,"body":"afford to bury their deceased."},{"startTime":996.78,"endTime":997.9,"body":"So what we see here"},{"startTime":997.9,"endTime":1002.38,"body":"is the replacement of one"},{"startTime":997.9,"endTime":1002.38,"body":"unpleasant solution with another,"},{"startTime":1002.38,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"so we reduced the need"},{"startTime":1002.38,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"for the resurrectionists,"},{"startTime":1004.52,"endTime":1006.82,"body":"but instead, we used the bodies"},{"startTime":1004.52,"endTime":1006.82,"body":"of people who are so poor"},{"startTime":1006.82,"endTime":1008.803,"body":"that they can't even bury their dead."},{"startTime":1011.71,"endTime":1014.38,"body":"It did eventually put an"},{"startTime":1011.71,"endTime":1014.38,"body":"end to the black market"},{"startTime":1014.38,"endTime":1016.96,"body":"in the trade in bodies, it's true,"},{"startTime":1016.96,"endTime":1019.77,"body":"but we wouldn't say that"},{"startTime":1016.96,"endTime":1019.77,"body":"it was a good solution."},{"startTime":1019.77,"endTime":1022.103,"body":"That act remained in force until 1984."},{"startTime":1023.15,"endTime":1023.99,"body":"But the legislative story"},{"startTime":1023.99,"endTime":1025.9,"body":"is only one part of this story,"},{"startTime":1025.9,"endTime":1028.19,"body":"and the common law steps in as well"},{"startTime":1028.19,"endTime":1029.37,"body":"from the 17th century on,"},{"startTime":1029.37,"endTime":1032.11,"body":"by that, I mean decisions made by courts,"},{"startTime":1032.11,"endTime":1036.36,"body":"and it lays another vital"},{"startTime":1032.11,"endTime":1036.36,"body":"part of the law's foundations."},{"startTime":1036.36,"endTime":1037.33,"body":"Our journey through the case law"},{"startTime":1037.33,"endTime":1039.24,"body":"begins in the 17th century,"},{"startTime":1039.24,"endTime":1040.79,"body":"because it's here we find the origins"},{"startTime":1040.79,"endTime":1043.94,"body":"of a really fundamental element"},{"startTime":1040.79,"endTime":1043.94,"body":"of the common law position"},{"startTime":1043.94,"endTime":1045.95,"body":"on the status of human tissue,"},{"startTime":1045.95,"endTime":1048.37,"body":"and that is that a corpse"},{"startTime":1045.95,"endTime":1048.37,"body":"cannot be the subject"},{"startTime":1048.37,"endTime":1050.12,"body":"of property rights,"},{"startTime":1050.12,"endTime":1052.77,"body":"what is often called the"},{"startTime":1050.12,"endTime":1052.77,"body":"no-property-in-a-corpse rule,"},{"startTime":1052.77,"endTime":1054.393,"body":"you cannot own a corpse."},{"startTime":1056.05,"endTime":1057.72,"body":"The rule's origins are murky,"},{"startTime":1057.72,"endTime":1059.44,"body":"its foundations are dubious,"},{"startTime":1059.44,"endTime":1060.85,"body":"and arguably, as we'll see,"},{"startTime":1060.85,"endTime":1062.85,"body":"it's actually been undermined"},{"startTime":1060.85,"endTime":1062.85,"body":"by a recent decision,"},{"startTime":1062.85,"endTime":1064.42,"body":"but the law remains in flux,"},{"startTime":1064.42,"endTime":1067.5,"body":"it's very difficult to say"},{"startTime":1064.42,"endTime":1067.5,"body":"what the current law is"},{"startTime":1067.5,"endTime":1068.79,"body":"with any degree of certainty,"},{"startTime":1068.79,"endTime":1071.17,"body":"but it remains good law for now."},{"startTime":1071.17,"endTime":1073.34,"body":"The origins lie in a case from 1614,"},{"startTime":1073.34,"endTime":1074.53,"body":"we call it Haynes' case,"},{"startTime":1074.53,"endTime":1075.363,"body":"and in that case,"},{"startTime":1075.363,"endTime":1078.08,"body":"William Haynes, having"},{"startTime":1075.363,"endTime":1078.08,"body":"disinterred four bodies,"},{"startTime":1078.08,"endTime":1079.44,"body":"he removed the winding sheet,"},{"startTime":1079.44,"endTime":1082.47,"body":"so he took from them the cloth"},{"startTime":1079.44,"endTime":1082.47,"body":"that they were wrapped in,"},{"startTime":1082.47,"endTime":1084.95,"body":"and then he reinterred the bodies."},{"startTime":1084.95,"endTime":1088.51,"body":"The question in that case"},{"startTime":1084.95,"endTime":1088.51,"body":"was who owned the sheets,"},{"startTime":1088.51,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"because he was being charged"},{"startTime":1088.51,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"with theft, essentially,"},{"startTime":1091.22,"endTime":1092.053,"body":"and to do that,"},{"startTime":1092.053,"endTime":1094.77,"body":"you had to know who"},{"startTime":1092.053,"endTime":1094.77,"body":"they'd been stolen from,"},{"startTime":1094.77,"endTime":1096.73,"body":"did somebody have ownership of them"},{"startTime":1096.73,"endTime":1098.3,"body":"that he, in taking these,"},{"startTime":1098.3,"endTime":1100.163,"body":"had therefore interfered with?"},{"startTime":1101.1,"endTime":1102.38,"body":"The court said the property vested"},{"startTime":1102.38,"endTime":1103.62,"body":"in whoever had owned the sheets"},{"startTime":1103.62,"endTime":1105.41,"body":"before they buried the bodies,"},{"startTime":1105.41,"endTime":1107.533,"body":"and he was found guilty of petty larceny."},{"startTime":1108.58,"endTime":1110.21,"body":"And of course, as the"},{"startTime":1108.58,"endTime":1110.21,"body":"bodies were replaced,"},{"startTime":1110.21,"endTime":1111.8,"body":"he clearly hadn't stolen them."},{"startTime":1111.8,"endTime":1113.01,"body":"But despite this,"},{"startTime":1113.01,"endTime":1116.41,"body":"the case was reported by legal"},{"startTime":1113.01,"endTime":1116.41,"body":"commentators of the time,"},{"startTime":1116.41,"endTime":1117.74,"body":"and for many years afterwards,"},{"startTime":1117.74,"endTime":1122.22,"body":"to mean that the corpse"},{"startTime":1117.74,"endTime":1122.22,"body":"itself could not be property."},{"startTime":1122.22,"endTime":1124.86,"body":"The basis for this misrepresentation"},{"startTime":1124.86,"endTime":1128.05,"body":"probably stems from some"},{"startTime":1124.86,"endTime":1128.05,"body":"comments in which the court says"},{"startTime":1128.05,"endTime":1130.513,"body":"the property of the sheets"},{"startTime":1128.05,"endTime":1130.513,"body":"remains in the owners,"},{"startTime":1131.36,"endTime":1133.64,"body":"that is, in him who had property therein,"},{"startTime":1133.64,"endTime":1135.47,"body":"when the dead body was wrapped therewith,"},{"startTime":1135.47,"endTime":1137.78,"body":"for the dead body is not capable of it."},{"startTime":1137.78,"endTime":1139.55,"body":"A dead body, being but a lump of earth,"},{"startTime":1139.55,"endTime":1141.48,"body":"has no capacity."},{"startTime":1141.48,"endTime":1144.4,"body":"And it seems that this was misinterpreted,"},{"startTime":1144.4,"endTime":1147.9,"body":"partly because they simply"},{"startTime":1144.4,"endTime":1147.9,"body":"didn't interpret it correctly,"},{"startTime":1147.9,"endTime":1151.4,"body":"but also because some of these"},{"startTime":1147.9,"endTime":1151.4,"body":"classical legal scholars,"},{"startTime":1151.4,"endTime":1152.32,"body":"like Sir William Blackstone,"},{"startTime":1152.32,"endTime":1154.44,"body":"already believed that this was the rule."},{"startTime":1154.44,"endTime":1155.3,"body":"These were natural lawyers,"},{"startTime":1155.3,"endTime":1157.74,"body":"they believed the law was"},{"startTime":1155.3,"endTime":1157.74,"body":"simply, this was the law,"},{"startTime":1157.74,"endTime":1160.85,"body":"that corpses simply weren't a fit subject"},{"startTime":1160.85,"endTime":1161.99,"body":"for the rules of property,"},{"startTime":1161.99,"endTime":1164.16,"body":"it wasn't right that they could be owned,"},{"startTime":1164.16,"endTime":1166.26,"body":"and the law shouldn't say that they could."},{"startTime":1167.37,"endTime":1168.67,"body":"In the 18th and 19th centuries,"},{"startTime":1168.67,"endTime":1170.56,"body":"numerous cases came to the courts"},{"startTime":1170.56,"endTime":1173.46,"body":"concerning dealings with"},{"startTime":1170.56,"endTime":1173.46,"body":"buried and unburied bodies,"},{"startTime":1173.46,"endTime":1176.2,"body":"body part use wasn't really"},{"startTime":1173.46,"endTime":1176.2,"body":"an issue at this stage,"},{"startTime":1176.2,"endTime":1177.55,"body":"and we don't have time"},{"startTime":1176.2,"endTime":1177.55,"body":"to consider them all"},{"startTime":1177.55,"endTime":1179.49,"body":"in all their complex dimensions,"},{"startTime":1179.49,"endTime":1181.52,"body":"but what was really clearly recognized"},{"startTime":1181.52,"endTime":1183.21,"body":"throughout the 18th and 19th centuries"},{"startTime":1183.21,"endTime":1184.63,"body":"is that in almost every case,"},{"startTime":1184.63,"endTime":1186.1,"body":"a body couldn't be owned,"},{"startTime":1186.1,"endTime":1188.48,"body":"it wasn't possible to have property rights"},{"startTime":1188.48,"endTime":1189.93,"body":"in relation to them."},{"startTime":1189.93,"endTime":1191.95,"body":"So I'll give you a taste"},{"startTime":1189.93,"endTime":1191.95,"body":"of the kinds of cases"},{"startTime":1191.95,"endTime":1194.92,"body":"that the courts were"},{"startTime":1191.95,"endTime":1194.92,"body":"dealing with at this time."},{"startTime":1194.92,"endTime":1198.37,"body":"One from 1749 is the case"},{"startTime":1194.92,"endTime":1198.37,"body":"of Exelby and Handyside,"},{"startTime":1198.37,"endTime":1199.6,"body":"and this was an action"},{"startTime":1199.6,"endTime":1203.64,"body":"for the return of the body of"},{"startTime":1199.6,"endTime":1203.64,"body":"stillborn, conjoined twins."},{"startTime":1203.64,"endTime":1205.68,"body":"Dr. Handyside was a male midwife,"},{"startTime":1205.68,"endTime":1207.6,"body":"and he'd delivered the twins,"},{"startTime":1207.6,"endTime":1208.433,"body":"and when they died,"},{"startTime":1208.433,"endTime":1210.98,"body":"he took them with him after birth,"},{"startTime":1210.98,"endTime":1213.673,"body":"and he displayed them as a curio."},{"startTime":1215.14,"endTime":1217.83,"body":"The twins' father, not surprisingly,"},{"startTime":1217.83,"endTime":1220.05,"body":"brought an action in"},{"startTime":1217.83,"endTime":1220.05,"body":"trover for their return,"},{"startTime":1220.05,"endTime":1222.59,"body":"what he wanted was the bodies back."},{"startTime":1222.59,"endTime":1227.04,"body":"And the court found in 1749"},{"startTime":1227.04,"endTime":1229.64,"body":"that Dr. Handyside should"},{"startTime":1227.04,"endTime":1229.64,"body":"return them to the father"},{"startTime":1229.64,"endTime":1230.69,"body":"for burial,"},{"startTime":1230.69,"endTime":1232.71,"body":"as no person had any property in a corpse."},{"startTime":1232.71,"endTime":1234.74,"body":"So they're saying the"},{"startTime":1232.71,"endTime":1234.74,"body":"doctor couldn't keep them,"},{"startTime":1234.74,"endTime":1237.85,"body":"he couldn't sustain this claim"},{"startTime":1234.74,"endTime":1237.85,"body":"that he owned these bodies,"},{"startTime":1237.85,"endTime":1240.15,"body":"that simply wasn't how"},{"startTime":1237.85,"endTime":1240.15,"body":"bodies were dealt with."},{"startTime":1241.51,"endTime":1242.343,"body":"So you can see"},{"startTime":1242.343,"endTime":1244.05,"body":"that the property is actually"},{"startTime":1242.343,"endTime":1244.05,"body":"doing some good work,"},{"startTime":1244.05,"endTime":1245.493,"body":"which we'll come back to."},{"startTime":1246.36,"endTime":1247.22,"body":"Some years later,"},{"startTime":1247.22,"endTime":1248.8,"body":"there was the case of R. and Lynn,"},{"startTime":1248.8,"endTime":1251.11,"body":"this was a case in which"},{"startTime":1248.8,"endTime":1251.11,"body":"there was a theft of a corpse"},{"startTime":1251.11,"endTime":1252.27,"body":"from a graveyard for dissection,"},{"startTime":1252.27,"endTime":1254.39,"body":"the first of our body snatchers cases."},{"startTime":1254.39,"endTime":1255.75,"body":"A reference was made here"},{"startTime":1255.75,"endTime":1258.2,"body":"to the fact that a body couldn't be owned,"},{"startTime":1258.2,"endTime":1260.68,"body":"that it was not the property of anyone."},{"startTime":1260.68,"endTime":1262.57,"body":"So this position was repeated and repeated"},{"startTime":1262.57,"endTime":1263.403,"body":"throughout these cases,"},{"startTime":1263.403,"endTime":1265.02,"body":"there are many instances"},{"startTime":1263.403,"endTime":1265.02,"body":"where people take bodies,"},{"startTime":1265.02,"endTime":1265.853,"body":"for all sorts of reasons,"},{"startTime":1265.853,"endTime":1267.39,"body":"in the 19th century in particular,"},{"startTime":1267.39,"endTime":1269.2,"body":"often, it was disputes about"},{"startTime":1267.39,"endTime":1269.2,"body":"how they should be buried,"},{"startTime":1269.2,"endTime":1270.57,"body":"where they should be buried,"},{"startTime":1270.57,"endTime":1271.61,"body":"should they be cremated,"},{"startTime":1271.61,"endTime":1273.29,"body":"so people disinterring bodies"},{"startTime":1273.29,"endTime":1274.74,"body":"to take them for a cremation."},{"startTime":1275.58,"endTime":1277.05,"body":"And what comes out of these, two things,"},{"startTime":1277.05,"endTime":1278.823,"body":"by the end of the 19th century,"},{"startTime":1279.69,"endTime":1281.34,"body":"is one, that it can't be owned,"},{"startTime":1281.34,"endTime":1284.89,"body":"but three cases do establish"},{"startTime":1281.34,"endTime":1284.89,"body":"one thing that is important,"},{"startTime":1284.89,"endTime":1288.86,"body":"and it's the beginnings of"},{"startTime":1284.89,"endTime":1288.86,"body":"a slight shift in the law,"},{"startTime":1288.86,"endTime":1291.54,"body":"and that is that you can have"},{"startTime":1288.86,"endTime":1291.54,"body":"the right to possess a body"},{"startTime":1291.54,"endTime":1293.69,"body":"for the purposes of burial."},{"startTime":1293.69,"endTime":1295.92,"body":"And this is how the law"},{"startTime":1293.69,"endTime":1295.92,"body":"still thinks about bodies,"},{"startTime":1295.92,"endTime":1297.84,"body":"that someone, usually the executor,"},{"startTime":1297.84,"endTime":1299.34,"body":"but others potentially,"},{"startTime":1299.34,"endTime":1300.37,"body":"can have a legal right"},{"startTime":1300.37,"endTime":1302.85,"body":"just to possess the body"},{"startTime":1300.37,"endTime":1302.85,"body":"for this particular purpose,"},{"startTime":1302.85,"endTime":1304.51,"body":"so a type of property interest,"},{"startTime":1304.51,"endTime":1306.31,"body":"you can have that."},{"startTime":1306.31,"endTime":1309.05,"body":"Now you might wonder why I'm"},{"startTime":1306.31,"endTime":1309.05,"body":"laboring about this distinction"},{"startTime":1309.05,"endTime":1310.46,"body":"between owning a body and possessing it,"},{"startTime":1310.46,"endTime":1312.01,"body":"but they're not the same thing."},{"startTime":1312.89,"endTime":1314.75,"body":"The distinction is really"},{"startTime":1312.89,"endTime":1314.75,"body":"important in the law of property,"},{"startTime":1314.75,"endTime":1315.99,"body":"it's important here,"},{"startTime":1315.99,"endTime":1318.25,"body":"it's important as we go on."},{"startTime":1318.25,"endTime":1320.37,"body":"To fully explain this"},{"startTime":1318.25,"endTime":1320.37,"body":"would take a long time,"},{"startTime":1320.37,"endTime":1321.96,"body":"but I'll give you a simple analogy"},{"startTime":1321.96,"endTime":1323.53,"body":"that can probably help"},{"startTime":1321.96,"endTime":1323.53,"body":"us see the distinction"},{"startTime":1323.53,"endTime":1324.85,"body":"between owning something"},{"startTime":1324.85,"endTime":1326.943,"body":"and merely having a right to possess it."},{"startTime":1327.81,"endTime":1328.95,"body":"Think of an article of clothing,"},{"startTime":1328.95,"endTime":1330.2,"body":"let's say it's your suit."},{"startTime":1331.16,"endTime":1333.36,"body":"You would say, and the"},{"startTime":1331.16,"endTime":1333.36,"body":"law would agree with you,"},{"startTime":1333.36,"endTime":1335.883,"body":"that you own the suit, it's my suit,"},{"startTime":1336.83,"endTime":1338.18,"body":"you bought it, you're in control of it,"},{"startTime":1338.18,"endTime":1339.9,"body":"you can wear it, and sell"},{"startTime":1338.18,"endTime":1339.9,"body":"it, you can throw it away,"},{"startTime":1339.9,"endTime":1341.72,"body":"you can do as you like with it."},{"startTime":1341.72,"endTime":1343.05,"body":"I, however,"},{"startTime":1343.05,"endTime":1344.65,"body":"can't do anything with"},{"startTime":1343.05,"endTime":1344.65,"body":"someone else's suit,"},{"startTime":1344.65,"endTime":1345.63,"body":"so if it's your suit,"},{"startTime":1345.63,"endTime":1347.26,"body":"I don't get to wear it,"},{"startTime":1345.63,"endTime":1347.26,"body":"I don't get to touch it,"},{"startTime":1347.26,"endTime":1348.18,"body":"I don't get to sell it,"},{"startTime":1348.18,"endTime":1349.92,"body":"I don't get to do anything"},{"startTime":1348.18,"endTime":1349.92,"body":"with it, it's yours,"},{"startTime":1349.92,"endTime":1351.2,"body":"and if I try to,"},{"startTime":1351.2,"endTime":1352.15,"body":"you can call the police,"},{"startTime":1352.15,"endTime":1354.19,"body":"and I can be charged with"},{"startTime":1352.15,"endTime":1354.19,"body":"theft if I've taken it,"},{"startTime":1354.19,"endTime":1356.64,"body":"and you might bring some civil"},{"startTime":1354.19,"endTime":1356.64,"body":"claims against me as well,"},{"startTime":1356.64,"endTime":1358.05,"body":"that's what ownership does,"},{"startTime":1358.05,"endTime":1360.51,"body":"it keeps it exclusively to the owner,"},{"startTime":1360.51,"endTime":1361.89,"body":"I can keep you out of my property,"},{"startTime":1361.89,"endTime":1364.32,"body":"and you can keep me out of yours."},{"startTime":1364.32,"endTime":1366.94,"body":"But what's happening when you"},{"startTime":1364.32,"endTime":1366.94,"body":"take it to the dry cleaner's?"},{"startTime":1366.94,"endTime":1368.04,"body":"Well you hand it over,"},{"startTime":1368.04,"endTime":1369.69,"body":"and the dry cleaner hangs"},{"startTime":1368.04,"endTime":1369.69,"body":"onto it in their shop"},{"startTime":1369.69,"endTime":1370.523,"body":"for a day or two,"},{"startTime":1370.523,"endTime":1371.356,"body":"they clean it,"},{"startTime":1371.356,"endTime":1373.01,"body":"and when you pay, you get it back."},{"startTime":1373.01,"endTime":1374.76,"body":"Are they the owner for a little while?"},{"startTime":1374.76,"endTime":1376.24,"body":"Well the law says no,"},{"startTime":1376.24,"endTime":1378.33,"body":"but they're not a thief either."},{"startTime":1378.33,"endTime":1380.563,"body":"What they are is what we call a bailee."},{"startTime":1381.51,"endTime":1384.16,"body":"What I've done is I have given it to them"},{"startTime":1384.16,"endTime":1385.37,"body":"for a certain amount of time,"},{"startTime":1385.37,"endTime":1386.51,"body":"to do certain things,"},{"startTime":1386.51,"endTime":1389.33,"body":"and there will be constraints"},{"startTime":1386.51,"endTime":1389.33,"body":"on what they can do."},{"startTime":1389.33,"endTime":1390.66,"body":"We call this a bailment,"},{"startTime":1390.66,"endTime":1391.82,"body":"and they hold it in that way,"},{"startTime":1391.82,"endTime":1392.653,"body":"and what it does"},{"startTime":1392.653,"endTime":1395.2,"body":"is it gives them a right to"},{"startTime":1392.653,"endTime":1395.2,"body":"possess it for a purpose."},{"startTime":1395.2,"endTime":1396.56,"body":"And it's this concept of,"},{"startTime":1396.56,"endTime":1398.26,"body":"you can lawfully possess something"},{"startTime":1398.26,"endTime":1399.41,"body":"while not becoming the owner,"},{"startTime":1399.41,"endTime":1401.24,"body":"that's a really important distinction"},{"startTime":1401.24,"endTime":1402.56,"body":"that property gives us,"},{"startTime":1402.56,"endTime":1403.483,"body":"and we'll see, later on,"},{"startTime":1403.483,"endTime":1405.35,"body":"when we come back to"},{"startTime":1403.483,"endTime":1405.35,"body":"this idea of bailment,"},{"startTime":1405.35,"endTime":1407.19,"body":"why it's so important."},{"startTime":1407.19,"endTime":1409.11,"body":"And that's what we can"},{"startTime":1407.19,"endTime":1409.11,"body":"see partially is happening"},{"startTime":1409.11,"endTime":1411.25,"body":"with bodies being buried,"},{"startTime":1411.25,"endTime":1414.33,"body":"is someone is being given"},{"startTime":1411.25,"endTime":1414.33,"body":"a right of possession"},{"startTime":1414.33,"endTime":1416.63,"body":"for a certain amount"},{"startTime":1414.33,"endTime":1416.63,"body":"of time, for a purpose,"},{"startTime":1416.63,"endTime":1417.963,"body":"but they don't own it."},{"startTime":1418.87,"endTime":1420.01,"body":"So this is where we leave things"},{"startTime":1420.01,"endTime":1421.06,"body":"at the end of the 19th century,"},{"startTime":1421.06,"endTime":1422.6,"body":"no ownership of a corpse,"},{"startTime":1422.6,"endTime":1425.62,"body":"but there's a right to possession"},{"startTime":1422.6,"endTime":1425.62,"body":"for a particular purpose."},{"startTime":1425.62,"endTime":1427.023,"body":"So what happens next?"},{"startTime":1427.89,"endTime":1430.99,"body":"Well at this point,"},{"startTime":1430.99,"endTime":1433.8,"body":"what we need to do is move"},{"startTime":1430.99,"endTime":1433.8,"body":"from the English courts"},{"startTime":1433.8,"endTime":1435.52,"body":"and go to the Australian courts,"},{"startTime":1435.52,"endTime":1437.28,"body":"and the reason for this is"},{"startTime":1437.28,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"an extremely unusual case comes"},{"startTime":1437.28,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"to the Australian High Court"},{"startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1444.75,"body":"that sets the stage for big developments,"},{"startTime":1444.75,"endTime":1446.5,"body":"fundamental changes, arguably,"},{"startTime":1446.5,"endTime":1448.9,"body":"in the English law later"},{"startTime":1446.5,"endTime":1448.9,"body":"on in the 20th century."},{"startTime":1449.76,"endTime":1451.87,"body":"The case is called Doodeward and Spence,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1454.08,"endTime":1455.2,"body":"sadly, yet again,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1455.2,"endTime":1459.21,"body":"we have a case of a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1455.2,"endTime":1459.21,"body":"plaintiff who has, in a jar,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1459.21,"endTime":1462.87,"body":"the corpse of an infant with"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1459.21,"endTime":1462.87,"body":"two heads, who had died,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1462.87,"endTime":1464.83,"body":"and had been preserved in this jar."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1464.83,"endTime":1468.67,"body":"He'd been exhibiting"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1464.83,"endTime":1468.67,"body":"this around Australia,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1468.67,"endTime":1470.15,"body":"and the police charged him"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1470.15,"endTime":1472.31,"body":"with indecent exhibition of a corpse,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1472.31,"endTime":1474.9,"body":"and the policemen took"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1472.31,"endTime":1474.9,"body":"the jar and the body."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1474.9,"endTime":1477.46,"body":"And the plaintiff, the showman,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1477.46,"endTime":1478.36,"body":"tried to get it back."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1478.36,"endTime":1480.26,"body":"The police gave him back just the jar,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1481.24,"endTime":1482.64,"body":"and he brought an action, saying,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1482.64,"endTime":1484.22,"body":"you need to give me back the body as well,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1484.22,"endTime":1485.68,"body":"it's mine, I own it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1485.68,"endTime":1486.783,"body":"that was his argument."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1487.79,"endTime":1489.01,"body":"He brought a claim"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1489.01,"endTime":1490.99,"body":"in an old fashioned action called detinue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1490.99,"endTime":1492.67,"body":"but what he had to show to succeed"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1492.67,"endTime":1494.5,"body":"was that it was his property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1494.5,"endTime":1496.57,"body":"because the law there"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1494.5,"endTime":1496.57,"body":"required, for this action,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1496.57,"endTime":1497.627,"body":"that you showed you owned it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1497.627,"endTime":1498.53,"body":"and to do that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1498.53,"endTime":1501.04,"body":"he had to show that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1498.53,"endTime":1501.04,"body":"this body was property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1501.04,"endTime":1502.8,"body":"and his property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1502.8,"endTime":1505.07,"body":"So for the very first time, really,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1505.07,"endTime":1506.68,"body":"the courts had to deal head-on"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1506.68,"endTime":1508.81,"body":"with the question of, is it property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1508.81,"endTime":1510.16,"body":"because if it wasn't,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1510.16,"endTime":1512.32,"body":"then this action had to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1510.16,"endTime":1512.32,"body":"fail because it didn't work,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1512.32,"endTime":1515.17,"body":"because it rested on the idea"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1512.32,"endTime":1515.17,"body":"that the body was property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1516.49,"endTime":1518.84,"body":"And the Australian High"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1516.49,"endTime":1518.84,"body":"Court found that it could."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1518.84,"endTime":1520.46,"body":"So here we had had centuries"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1520.46,"endTime":1523.4,"body":"of the courts in England saying"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1520.46,"endTime":1523.4,"body":"no, you can't own a corpse,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1523.4,"endTime":1524.45,"body":"it's not the right sort of thing,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1524.45,"endTime":1526.15,"body":"it doesn't fit in this category,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1526.15,"endTime":1529.15,"body":"and the Australian High"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1526.15,"endTime":1529.15,"body":"Court says yes, you can."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1529.15,"endTime":1530.45,"body":"How do they get to this view?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1530.45,"endTime":1531.62,"body":"One of them, Justice Higgins,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1531.62,"endTime":1532.54,"body":"said no, you can't,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1532.54,"endTime":1533.76,"body":"you absolutely can't own bodies,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1533.76,"endTime":1534.793,"body":"and so he dissented."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1535.88,"endTime":1537.65,"body":"Justice Barton made it clear"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1537.65,"endTime":1539.95,"body":"that he agreed that there was no property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1539.95,"endTime":1541.87,"body":"in a corpse awaiting burial,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1541.87,"endTime":1544.5,"body":"he however took the view"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1541.87,"endTime":1544.5,"body":"that this one could be owned,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1544.5,"endTime":1548.75,"body":"but he did so on the basis of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1544.5,"endTime":1548.75,"body":"really pretty offensive views,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1548.75,"endTime":1550.49,"body":"which were he simply just didn't think"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1550.49,"endTime":1552.36,"body":"that this was a human body,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1552.36,"endTime":1554.74,"body":"he didn't think that it was a fit subject"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1554.74,"endTime":1557.13,"body":"for being regarded as a person"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1557.13,"endTime":1558.92,"body":"because it had two heads,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1558.92,"endTime":1560.22,"body":"and essentially,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1560.22,"endTime":1563.07,"body":"in a view that's obviously an"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1560.22,"endTime":1563.07,"body":"anathema to modern thinking,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1563.07,"endTime":1565.063,"body":"he thought of it as something quite other,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1566.29,"endTime":1569.26,"body":"and so we probably wouldn't"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1566.29,"endTime":1569.26,"body":"listen to his opinion either."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1569.26,"endTime":1571.93,"body":"But the key person whose"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1569.26,"endTime":1571.93,"body":"opinion made all the difference"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1571.93,"endTime":1573.99,"body":"is Chief Justice Griffith,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1573.99,"endTime":1576.1,"body":"and what he said is that it doesn't follow"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1576.1,"endTime":1578.16,"body":"from the mere fact that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1576.1,"endTime":1578.16,"body":"a human body at death"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1578.16,"endTime":1580.11,"body":"is not the subject of ownership"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1580.11,"endTime":1583.203,"body":"that it's incapable of ever"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1580.11,"endTime":1583.203,"body":"becoming a subject of ownership."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1584.56,"endTime":1586.83,"body":"And what he said was it's quite clear"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1586.83,"endTime":1589.3,"body":"that there are plenty"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1586.83,"endTime":1589.3,"body":"of bodies and body parts"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1589.3,"endTime":1591.53,"body":"that are in fact owned"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1589.3,"endTime":1591.53,"body":"and treated like property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1591.53,"endTime":1592.363,"body":"all the time,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1592.363,"endTime":1596.38,"body":"he talked about mummies, and"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1592.363,"endTime":1596.38,"body":"prepared skeletons, and skulls,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1596.38,"endTime":1597.83,"body":"and other parts of the human body"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1597.83,"endTime":1600.27,"body":"that are kept, and used, and possessed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1600.27,"endTime":1602.93,"body":"And so he said it must be the case"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1602.93,"endTime":1604.5,"body":"that these are, at some point,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1604.5,"endTime":1605.99,"body":"able to be the subject of property rights"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1605.99,"endTime":1607.75,"body":"because we're treating them like property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1607.75,"endTime":1608.583,"body":"was his point."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1609.78,"endTime":1611.72,"body":"So he didn't say the rule didn't exist,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1611.72,"endTime":1614.24,"body":"but he said we need to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1611.72,"endTime":1614.24,"body":"explain what's happening here,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1614.24,"endTime":1616.03,"body":"and he offered an explanation,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1616.03,"endTime":1617.11,"body":"that's still in force today,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1617.11,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"it's now enshrined in"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1617.11,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"legislation in this country,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1619.4,"endTime":1620.63,"body":"and it affects the outcome"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1620.63,"endTime":1623.13,"body":"in numerous cases that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1620.63,"endTime":1623.13,"body":"we're going to look at."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1623.13,"endTime":1624.15,"body":"And what he said was,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1624.15,"endTime":1626.05,"body":"is that there will be occasions"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1626.05,"endTime":1630.38,"body":"when you can gain a right"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1626.05,"endTime":1630.38,"body":"to possession at least"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1630.38,"endTime":1631.84,"body":"if something is done to a body"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1631.84,"endTime":1635.1,"body":"that changes it from being a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1631.84,"endTime":1635.1,"body":"body that's awaiting burial"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1635.1,"endTime":1636.5,"body":"into something else,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1636.5,"endTime":1639.33,"body":"he's saying there's something"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1636.5,"endTime":1639.33,"body":"that could be transformative."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1639.33,"endTime":1641.93,"body":"And he says it's the lawful"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1639.33,"endTime":1641.93,"body":"exercise of work or skill,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1641.93,"endTime":1645.4,"body":"he says if we work on a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1641.93,"endTime":1645.4,"body":"body, or a part of a body,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1645.4,"endTime":1646.233,"body":"we can change it"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1646.233,"endTime":1648.21,"body":"from something that is a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1646.233,"endTime":1648.21,"body":"corpse that needs to be buried,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1648.21,"endTime":1650.18,"body":"and that's what will happen with it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1650.18,"endTime":1651.33,"body":"into something else,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1651.33,"endTime":1653.44,"body":"we differentiate it."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1653.44,"endTime":1655.15,"body":"And he says if you do that lawfully,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1655.15,"endTime":1657.92,"body":"you will gain these possessory rights."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1657.92,"endTime":1659.51,"body":"He doesn't give an exhaustive enumeration"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1659.51,"endTime":1661.2,"body":"of all the circumstances"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1659.51,"endTime":1661.2,"body":"where this happens,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1661.2,"endTime":1662.66,"body":"but he opens up the idea"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1662.66,"endTime":1664.13,"body":"that this is how we can explain it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1664.13,"endTime":1665.44,"body":"and this is how the law can say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1665.44,"endTime":1667.01,"body":"this is what it looks like"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1667.01,"endTime":1670.093,"body":"when we would accept that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1667.01,"endTime":1670.093,"body":"somebody can own part of a body."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1673.35,"body":"So this was a huge departure,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1673.35,"endTime":1674.56,"body":"and it created the basis"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1674.56,"endTime":1677.38,"body":"for what we now refer to as"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1674.56,"endTime":1677.38,"body":"the work and skill exception"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1677.38,"endTime":1678.703,"body":"to the no-property rule,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1679.89,"endTime":1681.44,"body":"and it offered a solution,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1681.44,"endTime":1682.67,"body":"that we're going to see"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1682.67,"endTime":1684.97,"body":"what it achieved in the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1682.67,"endTime":1684.97,"body":"English courts shortly,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1684.97,"endTime":1685.96,"body":"but this was groundbreaking."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1685.96,"endTime":1686.793,"body":"And in some ways,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1686.793,"endTime":1687.78,"body":"it's informed by Lockean ideas"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1687.78,"endTime":1690.02,"body":"about working on things"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1687.78,"endTime":1690.02,"body":"that have no owner,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1690.02,"endTime":1691.54,"body":"but really, what he was trying to do"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1691.54,"endTime":1693.98,"body":"was give a pragmatic solution"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1693.98,"endTime":1696.21,"body":"in a situation where, otherwise,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1696.21,"endTime":1697.15,"body":"you wouldn't have an answer,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1697.15,"endTime":1699.42,"body":"you would end up with absurd situations,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1699.42,"endTime":1700.53,"body":"and that was one such,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1700.53,"endTime":1702.52,"body":"that he was saying there"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1700.53,"endTime":1702.52,"body":"are plenty of instances"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1702.52,"endTime":1704.66,"body":"where things are demonstrably"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1702.52,"endTime":1704.66,"body":"treated like property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1704.66,"endTime":1705.493,"body":"we need to find a way"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1705.493,"endTime":1708.16,"body":"for the law to explain what's happening."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1708.16,"endTime":1709.79,"body":"So that was the law in 1908,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1709.79,"endTime":1711.41,"body":"not a lot of happens in the common law"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1711.41,"endTime":1713.84,"body":"for quite some time in the 20th century."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1713.84,"endTime":1715.67,"body":"We do see some change legislatively,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1715.67,"endTime":1718.34,"body":"the Human Tissue Act 1961 was passed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1718.34,"endTime":1720.15,"body":"creating quite a basic consent model."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1720.15,"endTime":1721.37,"body":"So running in tandem,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1721.37,"endTime":1723.89,"body":"we have these no-property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1721.37,"endTime":1723.89,"body":"cases, we have Doodeward,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1723.89,"endTime":1725.101,"body":"then we see the legislator"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1725.101,"endTime":1728.15,"body":"beginning to create ways"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1725.101,"endTime":1728.15,"body":"to deal with tissue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1728.15,"endTime":1728.983,"body":"and they're doing this"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1728.983,"endTime":1732.54,"body":"because we have this burgeoning"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1728.983,"endTime":1732.54,"body":"science of transplantation,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1732.54,"endTime":1734.6,"body":"medics are getting better at succeeding,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1734.6,"endTime":1735.66,"body":"we're on the cusp"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1735.66,"endTime":1738.883,"body":"of seeing widespread organ"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1735.66,"endTime":1738.883,"body":"transplantation being possible"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1738.883,"endTime":1741.55,"body":"from the late 1970s onwards,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1741.55,"endTime":1743.33,"body":"and we're also seeing an expansion"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1743.33,"endTime":1744.8,"body":"in the use of tissue in research."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1744.8,"endTime":1747.73,"body":"So they pass the Human"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1744.8,"endTime":1747.73,"body":"Tissue Act to manage this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1747.73,"endTime":1750.16,"body":"and it provides a very"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1747.73,"endTime":1750.16,"body":"basic consent model,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1750.16,"endTime":1752.17,"body":"it essentially says"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1752.17,"endTime":1755.39,"body":"that bodily tissue can be"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1752.17,"endTime":1755.39,"body":"used for therapeutic purposes,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1755.39,"endTime":1756.23,"body":"so treatments,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1756.23,"endTime":1757.95,"body":"for education and research,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1757.95,"endTime":1759.56,"body":"it doesn't define these,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1759.56,"endTime":1761.32,"body":"and this can happen"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1761.32,"endTime":1764.633,"body":"if someone is lawfully in"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1761.32,"endTime":1764.633,"body":"possession of a body or parts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1765.63,"endTime":1767.38,"body":"and they have no reason to believe"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1767.38,"endTime":1768.67,"body":"that the deceased or their family"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1768.67,"endTime":1770.35,"body":"would object to the use,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1770.35,"endTime":1771.89,"body":"also, they can give their consent,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1771.89,"endTime":1774.11,"body":"so you're able to donate"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1771.89,"endTime":1774.11,"body":"if you could consent,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1774.11,"endTime":1777.0,"body":"but also, they could use"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1774.11,"endTime":1777.0,"body":"it if no one was objecting."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1777.0,"endTime":1777.833,"body":"So you can see"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1777.833,"endTime":1780.35,"body":"how the origins of that are"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1777.833,"endTime":1780.35,"body":"lying in the Anatomy Act,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1780.35,"endTime":1782.633,"body":"it's a step beyond, but not a big step."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1784.01,"endTime":1786.09,"body":"That act was widely criticized."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1786.09,"endTime":1787.3,"body":"Sadly, we don't have time"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1787.3,"endTime":1789.79,"body":"to go into all of the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1787.3,"endTime":1789.79,"body":"organ retention scandals"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1789.79,"endTime":1791.21,"body":"of the late 20th century,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1791.21,"endTime":1793.05,"body":"but this is what laid the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1791.21,"endTime":1793.05,"body":"foundations for those,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1793.05,"endTime":1794.21,"body":"and if people have questions about that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1794.21,"endTime":1796.1,"body":"we can talk about them at the end."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1796.1,"endTime":1798.7,"body":"But certainly, this"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1796.1,"endTime":1798.7,"body":"very thin consent model,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1798.7,"endTime":1799.65,"body":"with not much detail,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1799.65,"endTime":1801.93,"body":"was part of the context"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1801.93,"endTime":1806.55,"body":"that led to the retention of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1801.93,"endTime":1806.55,"body":"organs, and tissues, and so on"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1806.55,"endTime":1809.29,"body":"that many of you will"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1806.55,"endTime":1809.29,"body":"probably be familiar with."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1809.29,"endTime":1810.29,"body":"Despite those problems, however,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1810.29,"endTime":1812.97,"body":"that act remained in force until 2004,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1812.97,"endTime":1813.803,"body":"so that was the law,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1813.803,"endTime":1815.72,"body":"we have this thin consent model,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1815.72,"endTime":1818.68,"body":"and we have this odd cluster of cases"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1818.68,"endTime":1820.21,"body":"that don't tell us much."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1820.21,"endTime":1822.43,"body":"So by the late '90s, really,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1822.43,"endTime":1824.78,"body":"we have this patchy, piecemeal,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1824.78,"endTime":1827.443,"body":"not particularly"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1824.78,"endTime":1827.443,"body":"effective legal framework."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1829.07,"endTime":1832.0,"body":"We don't really know what"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1829.07,"endTime":1832.0,"body":"bio-materials are in the law,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1832.0,"endTime":1833.2,"body":"and in a way,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1833.2,"endTime":1834.57,"body":"it didn't matter terribly much,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1834.57,"endTime":1835.403,"body":"but what we'll see"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1835.403,"endTime":1836.55,"body":"from these cases I'm"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1835.403,"endTime":1836.55,"body":"about to tell you about,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1836.55,"endTime":1838.663,"body":"it came to matter very much indeed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1840.56,"endTime":1841.84,"body":"I'm going to look at two cases,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1841.84,"endTime":1842.673,"body":"there are more,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1842.673,"endTime":1844.94,"body":"but for the interest of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1842.673,"endTime":1844.94,"body":"time, we'll look at two."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1844.94,"endTime":1845.8,"body":"The first of these"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1845.8,"endTime":1848.58,"body":"is the case of Dobson and"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1845.8,"endTime":1848.58,"body":"North Tyneside Health Authority"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1848.58,"endTime":1850.519,"body":"from 1996."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1850.519,"endTime":1851.352,"body":"This was a case"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1851.352,"endTime":1853.5,"body":"in which the woman,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1851.352,"endTime":1853.5,"body":"Deborah Dobson, had died,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1853.5,"endTime":1854.91,"body":"she had a brain tumor,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1854.91,"endTime":1856.94,"body":"and she died in a hospital"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1856.94,"endTime":1858.53,"body":"run by the Newcastle Health Authority,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1858.53,"endTime":1860.13,"body":"and her body was autopsied."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1860.13,"endTime":1860.97,"body":"And when they did that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1860.97,"endTime":1863.41,"body":"they took her brain, and they"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1860.97,"endTime":1863.41,"body":"preserved it in paraffin,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1863.41,"endTime":1864.95,"body":"and they made slides from it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1864.95,"endTime":1867.78,"body":"so they used these to work"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1864.95,"endTime":1867.78,"body":"out what had happened to her."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1867.78,"endTime":1869.48,"body":"Her family later accused the hospital"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1869.48,"endTime":1872.37,"body":"of negligence in her care,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1872.37,"endTime":1873.99,"body":"and what they needed for this claim"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1873.99,"endTime":1876.06,"body":"was they needed to show this negligence,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1876.06,"endTime":1877.56,"body":"they needed proof,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1877.56,"endTime":1879.76,"body":"so they tried to get access to the slides,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1879.76,"endTime":1881.43,"body":"to the brain that they"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1879.76,"endTime":1881.43,"body":"knew had been taken,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1881.43,"endTime":1882.4,"body":"they knew she'd been autopsied,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1882.4,"endTime":1884.86,"body":"they knew things had been retained."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1884.86,"endTime":1885.82,"body":"And when they tried this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1885.82,"endTime":1886.653,"body":"the hospital said,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1886.653,"endTime":1888.29,"body":"we've destroyed the tissue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1886.653,"endTime":1888.29,"body":"we've destroyed the slides,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1888.29,"endTime":1890.24,"body":"we've thrown them away."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1890.24,"endTime":1892.97,"body":"Crucially, what they"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1890.24,"endTime":1892.97,"body":"do is they then decide"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1892.97,"endTime":1895.06,"body":"they will bring an action"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1892.97,"endTime":1895.06,"body":"against that hospital"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1895.06,"endTime":1896.25,"body":"for doing that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1896.25,"endTime":1899.22,"body":"for destroying the slides,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1896.25,"endTime":1899.22,"body":"destroying the tissue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1899.22,"endTime":1900.053,"body":"because, effectively,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1900.053,"endTime":1902.15,"body":"they've destroyed the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1900.053,"endTime":1902.15,"body":"evidence they needed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1902.15,"endTime":1904.5,"body":"And the way they argue this is they say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1904.5,"endTime":1906.86,"body":"those slides, they were property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1906.86,"endTime":1908.94,"body":"they were our property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1908.94,"endTime":1910.09,"body":"you were bailees,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1910.09,"endTime":1911.96,"body":"you were holding it, like the dry cleaner,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1911.96,"endTime":1912.793,"body":"you were holding it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1912.793,"endTime":1913.77,"body":"you should have kept it safe,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1913.77,"endTime":1915.48,"body":"and in not doing so,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1915.48,"endTime":1916.83,"body":"you have done something wrong,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1916.83,"endTime":1919.4,"body":"is the gist of their argument here."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1919.4,"endTime":1921.16,"body":"To do this, to succeed in this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1921.16,"endTime":1923.383,"body":"essentially saying that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1921.16,"endTime":1923.383,"body":"they had converted them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1923.383,"endTime":1926.41,"body":"it's slightly unclear from the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1923.383,"endTime":1926.41,"body":"way they argue in the case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1926.41,"endTime":1927.81,"body":"to do this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1927.81,"endTime":1930.07,"body":"they have to show that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1927.81,"endTime":1930.07,"body":"that brain was property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1930.07,"endTime":1931.48,"body":"because this bailment relationship,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1931.48,"endTime":1933.69,"body":"it all rests on being about property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1933.69,"endTime":1936.29,"body":"and if the thing you're trying"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1933.69,"endTime":1936.29,"body":"to talk about isn't property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1936.29,"endTime":1937.3,"body":"it all collapses,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1937.3,"endTime":1938.71,"body":"because these are legal devices"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1938.71,"endTime":1940.9,"body":"that only relate to property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1940.9,"endTime":1942.08,"body":"So they had to go into court"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1942.08,"endTime":1944.853,"body":"and say this preserved brain was property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1945.953,"endTime":1948.3,"body":"You can probably guess"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1945.953,"endTime":1948.3,"body":"how they tried to do this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1948.3,"endTime":1950.21,"body":"they argued that Doodeward and Spence"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1950.21,"endTime":1953.27,"body":"meant that the preservation"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1950.21,"endTime":1953.27,"body":"of this brain had changed it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1953.27,"endTime":1955.54,"body":"it wasn't a corpse"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1953.27,"endTime":1955.54,"body":"awaiting burial anymore,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1955.54,"endTime":1956.83,"body":"it was now something different,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1956.83,"endTime":1961.01,"body":"it had undergone a process of human skill,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1961.01,"endTime":1962.81,"body":"work and skill had been applied,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1962.81,"endTime":1964.35,"body":"and in doing that, in preserving it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1964.35,"endTime":1966.84,"body":"it had become something"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1964.35,"endTime":1966.84,"body":"else, it had become property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1966.84,"endTime":1969.04,"body":"and therefore this whole"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1966.84,"endTime":1969.04,"body":"argument could run."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1970.4,"endTime":1973.25,"body":"Actually, Lord Justice Peter"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1970.4,"endTime":1973.25,"body":"Gibson rejected Doodeward"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1973.25,"endTime":1975.53,"body":"as the basis for this proposition,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1975.53,"endTime":1976.847,"body":"he wasn't prepared to accept it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1976.847,"endTime":1977.98,"body":"and there's legal arguments"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1977.98,"endTime":1979.96,"body":"as to why that might have been right,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1979.96,"endTime":1982.29,"body":"but he still accepted that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1979.96,"endTime":1982.29,"body":"the no-property rule existed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1982.29,"endTime":1983.55,"body":"and he still accepted that, in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1983.55,"endTime":1985.47,"body":"there was a work and skill exception,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1985.47,"endTime":1987.983,"body":"he just didn't accept"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1985.47,"endTime":1987.983,"body":"Doodeward as the origins of it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1989.13,"endTime":1990.44,"body":"which was an unusual position to take,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1990.44,"endTime":1992.48,"body":"but that's the position he took."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1992.48,"endTime":1995.44,"body":"But then he said he felt that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1992.48,"endTime":1995.44,"body":"this sort of preservation"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1995.44,"endTime":1996.65,"body":"wasn't the sort of thing"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1996.65,"endTime":1999.05,"body":"that work in skill exception meant,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":1999.05,"endTime":2001.14,"body":"it meant other things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2001.14,"endTime":2003.34,"body":"this was not enough work and skill."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2003.34,"endTime":2005.33,"body":"Whatever would fit it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2005.33,"endTime":2006.163,"body":"he doesn't really say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2006.163,"endTime":2008.2,"body":"but what he says is this doesn't fit,,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2008.2,"endTime":2009.283,"body":"and they lose."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2011.02,"endTime":2012.707,"body":"Two years later,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2012.707,"endTime":2015.29,"body":"the courts find themselves"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2012.707,"endTime":2015.29,"body":"dealing with another case"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2015.29,"endTime":2017.35,"body":"in which a similar question arises,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2017.35,"endTime":2019.57,"body":"but they deal with it quite differently."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2019.57,"endTime":2021.22,"body":"This is a particularly unusual case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2021.22,"endTime":2022.1,"body":"I mean all of these cases"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2022.1,"endTime":2023.06,"body":"where people are dealing with bodies,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2023.06,"endTime":2024.3,"body":"there's often quite a few"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2023.06,"endTime":2024.3,"body":"of them that are unusual,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2024.3,"endTime":2027.02,"body":"but this one, I think,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2024.3,"endTime":2027.02,"body":"is the most unusual,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2027.02,"endTime":2028.98,"body":"and you might have heard of it."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2028.98,"endTime":2029.813,"body":"In this one,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2029.813,"endTime":2031.05,"body":"Anthony Kelly was an artist,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2031.05,"endTime":2033.846,"body":"and between 1992 and 1994,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2033.846,"endTime":2036.83,"body":"he gained permission to go to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2033.846,"endTime":2036.83,"body":"the Royal College of Surgeons"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2036.83,"endTime":2040.45,"body":"and to draw some of the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2036.83,"endTime":2040.45,"body":"specimens that were there,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2040.45,"endTime":2043.01,"body":"like the ovary that I showed you before."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2043.01,"endTime":2046.45,"body":"He befriended a technician who"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2043.01,"endTime":2046.45,"body":"worked there, Neil Lindsay,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2046.45,"endTime":2047.91,"body":"who, over time,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2047.91,"endTime":2049.75,"body":"over the course of these three years,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2049.75,"endTime":2051.46,"body":"removed specimens for him,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2051.46,"endTime":2053.02,"body":"so removed these jars"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2053.02,"endTime":2055.263,"body":"that had dissected"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2053.02,"endTime":2055.263,"body":"parts of bodies in them."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2056.36,"endTime":2057.2,"body":"He made casts of them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2057.2,"endTime":2058.49,"body":"he did all sorts of things to them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2058.49,"endTime":2059.86,"body":"he kept them in his home,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2059.86,"endTime":2062.04,"body":"he buried them around London."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2062.04,"endTime":2064.07,"body":"And eventually, he was found out,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2064.07,"endTime":2065.18,"body":"he had an exhibition,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2065.18,"endTime":2066.74,"body":"the police were involved, they found out,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2066.74,"endTime":2069.263,"body":"and he and Lindsay were"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2066.74,"endTime":2069.263,"body":"charged with theft."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2070.89,"endTime":2073.03,"body":"They were charged under"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2070.89,"endTime":2073.03,"body":"section four of the Theft Act,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2073.03,"endTime":2073.89,"body":"and of course,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2073.89,"endTime":2075.96,"body":"the Theft Act is about"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2073.89,"endTime":2075.96,"body":"the taking of property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2075.96,"endTime":2076.84,"body":"it's about infringement"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2076.84,"endTime":2078.84,"body":"of people's possessory rights to things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2079.7,"endTime":2081.26,"body":"and so what they argued was,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2081.26,"endTime":2082.96,"body":"is they said it can't be theft"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2082.96,"endTime":2084.81,"body":"because theft is about property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2084.81,"endTime":2086.88,"body":"and we all know that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2084.81,"endTime":2086.88,"body":"bodies can't be property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2086.88,"endTime":2088.65,"body":"because no property in a corpse,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2088.65,"endTime":2090.44,"body":"therefore we can't be guilty of theft"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2090.44,"endTime":2092.21,"body":"because we didn't take any property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2092.21,"endTime":2093.76,"body":"and the act doesn't apply."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2093.76,"endTime":2096.47,"body":"I like to think of them"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2093.76,"endTime":2096.47,"body":"thinking it's a gotcha argument,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2096.47,"endTime":2098.15,"body":"we've got it, ha-ha,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2098.15,"endTime":2100.67,"body":"we've escaped from the law,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2100.67,"endTime":2101.72,"body":"but you might also be thinking"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2101.72,"endTime":2104.09,"body":"that sounds like what we"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2101.72,"endTime":2104.09,"body":"might call a technicality,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2104.09,"endTime":2105.4,"body":"getting off on a technicality,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2105.4,"endTime":2106.57,"body":"and you'd be right,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2106.57,"endTime":2108.42,"body":"that's exactly what you should think."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2108.42,"endTime":2109.253,"body":"And in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2109.253,"endTime":2111.92,"body":"the Court of Appeal wasn't"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2109.253,"endTime":2111.92,"body":"convinced by this at all,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2111.92,"endTime":2112.753,"body":"They said,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2112.753,"endTime":2113.74,"body":"yes, there's no property in a corpse,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2113.74,"endTime":2115.68,"body":"but they also accepted Doodeward held,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2115.68,"endTime":2116.82,"body":"they said, actually,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2116.82,"endTime":2119.95,"body":"sometimes, body parts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2116.82,"endTime":2119.95,"body":"bodies are property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2119.95,"endTime":2123.1,"body":"or certainly, people at least"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2119.95,"endTime":2123.1,"body":"have a right to possession."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2123.1,"endTime":2124.81,"body":"So they, like the court in Dobson,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2124.81,"endTime":2126.35,"body":"worked through the work"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2124.81,"endTime":2126.35,"body":"and skill exception,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2126.35,"endTime":2128.28,"body":"but they came to a different conclusion,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2128.28,"endTime":2129.65,"body":"they said, in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2129.65,"endTime":2133.71,"body":"because of the expert dissection"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2129.65,"endTime":2133.71,"body":"of these pieces of tissue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2133.71,"endTime":2136.61,"body":"and the preservation"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2133.71,"endTime":2136.61,"body":"techniques that had been used,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2136.61,"endTime":2138.74,"body":"they had in fact gained"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2136.61,"endTime":2138.74,"body":"a right to possess them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2138.74,"endTime":2140.23,"body":"at least sufficient to say"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2140.23,"endTime":2142.93,"body":"that when someone took these specimens,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2142.93,"endTime":2144.62,"body":"they could be guilty of theft,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2144.62,"endTime":2146.15,"body":"they were capable of being stolen"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2146.15,"endTime":2147.49,"body":"because the Royal College"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2147.49,"endTime":2149.53,"body":"had enough of a right to possession"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2149.53,"endTime":2151.48,"body":"that when someone took it away from them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2151.48,"endTime":2152.98,"body":"they had in fact infringed on that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2152.98,"endTime":2155.2,"body":"in a way that constitutes theft."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2155.2,"endTime":2156.55,"body":"Kelly was convicted"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2156.55,"endTime":2159.14,"body":"and sentenced to nine months in prison,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2159.14,"endTime":2160.42,"body":"so they didn't succeed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2160.42,"endTime":2163.03,"body":"So what should we make of these cases?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2163.03,"endTime":2166.15,"body":"Well, I think a big"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2163.03,"endTime":2166.15,"body":"part of their importance"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2166.15,"endTime":2167.51,"body":"is that they show what happens"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2167.51,"endTime":2169.02,"body":"if we don't see bio-materials,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2169.02,"endTime":2171.37,"body":"if we don't see body parts as property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2171.37,"endTime":2172.57,"body":"because when we do that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2172.57,"endTime":2175.19,"body":"even though body parts"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2172.57,"endTime":2175.19,"body":"are corporeal things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2175.19,"endTime":2176.88,"body":"they fall outside the rules"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2176.88,"endTime":2179.96,"body":"that we use to deal with"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2176.88,"endTime":2179.96,"body":"interactions with things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2179.96,"endTime":2182.56,"body":"or our relationships with"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2179.96,"endTime":2182.56,"body":"one another about things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2182.56,"endTime":2185.55,"body":"which is how property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2182.56,"endTime":2185.55,"body":"law thinks about things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2185.55,"endTime":2186.383,"body":"it doesn't think about"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2186.383,"endTime":2188.4,"body":"your relationship with something itself,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2188.4,"endTime":2191.46,"body":"it thinks about what are"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2188.4,"endTime":2191.46,"body":"our relationships as people"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2191.46,"endTime":2193.46,"body":"in relation to the thing."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2193.46,"endTime":2194.61,"body":"And in this context, we could say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2194.61,"endTime":2197.7,"body":"well, the Royal College"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2194.61,"endTime":2197.7,"body":"had a right to possession,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2197.7,"endTime":2199.47,"body":"it could defend against everybody else"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2199.47,"endTime":2201.11,"body":"in relation to these specimens,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2201.11,"endTime":2203.5,"body":"that's the way it's thinking about it."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2203.5,"endTime":2206.66,"body":"And I think what they"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2203.5,"endTime":2206.66,"body":"show is that it is absurd,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2206.66,"endTime":2208.15,"body":"it produces all sorts of absurdities"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2208.15,"endTime":2211.01,"body":"if we don't see body parts as property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2211.01,"endTime":2213.49,"body":"So what if someone had gone"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2211.01,"endTime":2213.49,"body":"into the Saatchi Gallery"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2213.49,"endTime":2215.83,"body":"and just taken Marc Quinn's \"Self,\""},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2215.83,"endTime":2217.61,"body":"would that have been okay?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2217.61,"endTime":2218.98,"body":"If someone goes to Body Worlds"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2218.98,"endTime":2220.82,"body":"and tries to take some of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2218.98,"endTime":2220.82,"body":"the plastinated bodies,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2220.82,"endTime":2221.653,"body":"would that be okay?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2221.653,"endTime":2222.64,"body":"Of course it wouldn't,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2222.64,"endTime":2224.74,"body":"we would demonstrably"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2222.64,"endTime":2224.74,"body":"think that was problematic,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2224.74,"endTime":2225.77,"body":"we would want to be able to say"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2225.77,"endTime":2227.17,"body":"that the people who produced those,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2227.17,"endTime":2228.83,"body":"and made them, and display them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2228.83,"endTime":2230.48,"body":"have some right to possession at least,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2230.48,"endTime":2231.313,"body":"that they can defend"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2231.313,"endTime":2233.333,"body":"against people who might try to take them."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2236.98,"endTime":2238.3,"body":"So this is the first strand"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2238.3,"endTime":2240.17,"body":"of why I think we need to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2238.3,"endTime":2240.17,"body":"regard bodies and their parts"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2240.17,"endTime":2241.26,"body":"as property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2241.26,"endTime":2244.16,"body":"because often, the law"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2241.26,"endTime":2244.16,"body":"needs them to be this way"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2244.16,"endTime":2246.37,"body":"so that the rules we"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2244.16,"endTime":2246.37,"body":"use to regulate things"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2246.37,"endTime":2248.41,"body":"can be used to address"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2246.37,"endTime":2248.41,"body":"the problems that arise"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2248.41,"endTime":2250.5,"body":"if people try to dispossess one another."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2253.85,"endTime":2254.75,"body":"There are, in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2254.75,"endTime":2257.68,"body":"numerous other cases where, in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2257.68,"endTime":2259.82,"body":"had the courts refused to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2257.68,"endTime":2259.82,"body":"see body parts as property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2259.82,"endTime":2262.87,"body":"and found ways around this"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2259.82,"endTime":2262.87,"body":"no-property-in-a-corpse rule,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2262.87,"endTime":2265.74,"body":"we would have seen all sorts"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2262.87,"endTime":2265.74,"body":"of other absurd results."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2265.74,"endTime":2266.9,"body":"So in the 1970s,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2266.9,"endTime":2267.77,"body":"there are a number of cases"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2267.77,"endTime":2269.74,"body":"where people give blood"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2267.77,"endTime":2269.74,"body":"samples and urine samples"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2269.74,"endTime":2270.573,"body":"to the police,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2270.573,"endTime":2271.82,"body":"and then they destroy them."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2271.82,"endTime":2276.58,"body":"In one, the defendant"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2271.82,"endTime":2276.58,"body":"gives a urine sample,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2276.58,"endTime":2278.22,"body":"and then he quickly tips it down the sink,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2278.22,"endTime":2279.93,"body":"so he's done what he's supposed to do,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2279.93,"endTime":2280.763,"body":"but then he destroys it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2280.763,"endTime":2282.34,"body":"he's charged with theft."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2282.34,"endTime":2283.35,"body":"In R. and Rothery, similarly,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2283.35,"endTime":2284.27,"body":"he gives a blood sample"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2284.27,"endTime":2286.63,"body":"and then he takes it away"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2284.27,"endTime":2286.63,"body":"from the police station"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2286.63,"endTime":2288.67,"body":"in an attempt to get away."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2288.67,"endTime":2290.66,"body":"And in both, they're charged with theft."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2290.66,"endTime":2291.58,"body":"The court, in those cases,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2291.58,"endTime":2292.59,"body":"doesn't even think about"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2292.59,"endTime":2294.52,"body":"whether the no-property rule applies"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2294.52,"endTime":2296.98,"body":"because it's so self-evident"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2294.52,"endTime":2296.98,"body":"that it must be property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2296.98,"endTime":2299.26,"body":"within the concept of the Theft Act"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2299.26,"endTime":2300.59,"body":"to make sense of what happens here,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2300.59,"endTime":2301.86,"body":"and to ensure that these people"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2301.86,"endTime":2304.51,"body":"who have undermined the police's ability"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2304.51,"endTime":2306.55,"body":"to take tests of their tissue"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2307.48,"endTime":2308.853,"body":"don't succeed in that."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2309.76,"endTime":2311.95,"body":"We also see an Australian case, of Roche,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2311.95,"endTime":2312.783,"body":"that was a case"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2312.783,"endTime":2315.04,"body":"in which the court needed"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2312.783,"endTime":2315.04,"body":"access to a tissue sample"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2315.04,"endTime":2317.7,"body":"to determine paternity"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2315.04,"endTime":2317.7,"body":"in a particular case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2317.7,"endTime":2320.67,"body":"for the purposes of dealing with a will,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2320.67,"endTime":2321.74,"body":"and in that case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2321.74,"endTime":2323.91,"body":"the rules of the court specifically said"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2323.91,"endTime":2325.81,"body":"the court can access any property it needs"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2325.81,"endTime":2326.887,"body":"to determine a case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2326.887,"endTime":2328.31,"body":"and it was argued in that case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2328.31,"endTime":2329.8,"body":"well that doesn't include tissue samples"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2329.8,"endTime":2331.05,"body":"because they're not property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2331.05,"endTime":2332.35,"body":"and the court simply says,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2332.35,"endTime":2334.06,"body":"look, it's just good sense"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2334.06,"endTime":2336.3,"body":"to ignore this"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2334.06,"endTime":2336.3,"body":"no-property-in-a-corpse rule,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2336.3,"endTime":2337.23,"body":"and see them as property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2337.23,"endTime":2339.8,"body":"because of course we need access"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2337.23,"endTime":2339.8,"body":"to these preserved samples"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2339.8,"endTime":2341.75,"body":"because of course we need"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2339.8,"endTime":2341.75,"body":"to determine paternity,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2341.75,"endTime":2343.88,"body":"and it would be ridiculous"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2341.75,"endTime":2343.88,"body":"to say we can't do that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2343.88,"endTime":2345.58,"body":"purely because of this old-fashioned rule"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2345.58,"endTime":2347.903,"body":"from the 18th and 19th century."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2349.06,"endTime":2349.95,"body":"So this is a rule,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2349.95,"endTime":2350.79,"body":"but this is, I think,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2350.79,"endTime":2353.16,"body":"an argument based on expediency,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2353.16,"endTime":2356.5,"body":"the law needs us to conceptualize"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2353.16,"endTime":2356.5,"body":"body parts as property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2356.5,"endTime":2358.087,"body":"to do its job a lot of the time,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2358.087,"endTime":2359.77,"body":"and to arrive at the kind of results"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2359.77,"endTime":2362.07,"body":"we would largely think are correct."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2362.07,"endTime":2364.58,"body":"The high point of this expediency"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2364.58,"endTime":2368.08,"body":"is the case of Yearworth"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2364.58,"endTime":2368.08,"body":"and North Bristol NHS Trust,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2368.08,"endTime":2370.72,"body":"and this is where the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2368.08,"endTime":2370.72,"body":"courts really hit a wall"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2370.72,"endTime":2371.81,"body":"where they have to get around it"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2371.81,"endTime":2373.67,"body":"by using property concepts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2373.67,"endTime":2375.03,"body":"and had they not,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2375.03,"endTime":2377.2,"body":"the men in this case"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2375.03,"endTime":2377.2,"body":"would have had no remedy,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2377.2,"endTime":2379.2,"body":"and that would have been clearly unjust."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2380.34,"endTime":2382.12,"body":"And it's the first time"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2380.34,"endTime":2382.12,"body":"the courts had to deal"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2382.12,"endTime":2383.83,"body":"not just with possession of bio-materials,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2383.83,"endTime":2385.16,"body":"but damage to them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2385.16,"endTime":2386.54,"body":"so a different question."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2386.54,"endTime":2388.09,"body":"We've seen lots of dispossession cases,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2388.09,"endTime":2389.83,"body":"but this was one where"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2388.09,"endTime":2389.83,"body":"someone actually damaged"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2389.83,"endTime":2391.91,"body":"somebody's important bio-materials,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2391.91,"endTime":2392.84,"body":"and if you think about it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2392.84,"endTime":2394.42,"body":"that has to be another important question"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2394.42,"endTime":2395.83,"body":"for the law to deal with,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2395.83,"endTime":2397.39,"body":"what happens if you damage something,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2397.39,"endTime":2399.28,"body":"what happens if you go into Body Worlds"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2399.28,"endTime":2401.28,"body":"and you walk around and destroy things?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2401.28,"endTime":2403.67,"body":"What happens if somebody"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2401.28,"endTime":2403.67,"body":"goes into a research lab"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2403.67,"endTime":2405.23,"body":"and destroys tissue,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2405.23,"endTime":2406.81,"body":"what do we do about that?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2406.81,"endTime":2407.95,"body":"Well this case, hopefully,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2407.95,"endTime":2409.23,"body":"tells us part of the answer,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2409.23,"endTime":2411.38,"body":"or it certainly illuminates the problem,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2411.38,"endTime":2413.03,"body":"and why we need a solution to it."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2414.01,"endTime":2414.843,"body":"In this case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2414.843,"endTime":2417.53,"body":"all the men had been"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2414.843,"endTime":2417.53,"body":"diagnosed with cancer,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2417.53,"endTime":2419.84,"body":"and prior to undergoing treatment,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2419.84,"endTime":2421.73,"body":"they provided sperm samples,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2421.73,"endTime":2422.74,"body":"which were stored,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2422.74,"endTime":2423.85,"body":"to preserve their fertility"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2423.85,"endTime":2428.603,"body":"in case the cancer treatment"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2423.85,"endTime":2428.603,"body":"destroyed their fertility,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2429.56,"endTime":2430.59,"body":"so this was important to them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2430.59,"endTime":2432.1,"body":"these were valuable samples for them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2432.1,"endTime":2434.22,"body":"this tissue was important"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2432.1,"endTime":2434.22,"body":"to them personally,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2434.22,"endTime":2437.053,"body":"in a way that it was irreplaceable."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2438.09,"endTime":2440.73,"body":"And what happened was the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2438.09,"endTime":2440.73,"body":"samples were destroyed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2440.73,"endTime":2441.78,"body":"they were allowed to defrost"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2441.78,"endTime":2442.613,"body":"due to negligence"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2442.613,"endTime":2445.08,"body":"on the part of the trust"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2442.613,"endTime":2445.08,"body":"that was holding them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2445.08,"endTime":2449.15,"body":"and the men suffered"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2445.08,"endTime":2449.15,"body":"exceptional levels of distress,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2449.15,"endTime":2450.7,"body":"they suffered depression,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2450.7,"endTime":2453.11,"body":"they were deeply psychologically"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2450.7,"endTime":2453.11,"body":"traumatized by this"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2453.11,"endTime":2454.37,"body":"because they thought"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2454.37,"endTime":2456.03,"body":"that they could no longer have children,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2456.03,"endTime":2459.29,"body":"they'd relied upon the protection"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2456.03,"endTime":2459.29,"body":"of their valuable samples,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2459.29,"endTime":2460.583,"body":"and they'd been failed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2461.44,"endTime":2462.47,"body":"What they did was,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2462.47,"endTime":2464.73,"body":"is they wanted to claim for"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2462.47,"endTime":2464.73,"body":"their psychiatric injuries,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2464.73,"endTime":2466.594,"body":"they wanted to claim for"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2464.73,"endTime":2466.594,"body":"the depression and the harm"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2466.594,"endTime":2468.29,"body":"that this had done to them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2468.29,"endTime":2469.85,"body":"but the law on psychiatric injury"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2469.85,"endTime":2472.12,"body":"is Byzantine to say the least,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2472.12,"endTime":2474.05,"body":"and where you have a psychiatric injury"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2474.05,"endTime":2476.43,"body":"that doesn't flow from"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2474.05,"endTime":2476.43,"body":"any physical injury,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2476.43,"endTime":2478.9,"body":"the laws are very, very"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2476.43,"endTime":2478.9,"body":"strict and quite constrained."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2478.9,"endTime":2481.54,"body":"So if I'm in a car accident"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2478.9,"endTime":2481.54,"body":"and I'm physically injured,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2481.54,"endTime":2483.11,"body":"and I also suffer PTSD,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2483.11,"endTime":2484.05,"body":"that's quite simple,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2484.05,"endTime":2485.99,"body":"one flows from the other, that's fine,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2485.99,"endTime":2488.94,"body":"but when I merely suffer, merely,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2488.94,"endTime":2490.5,"body":"suffer psychiatric injury,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2490.5,"endTime":2492.25,"body":"with no other physical harm,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2492.25,"endTime":2494.04,"body":"the law only allows me to succeed"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2494.04,"endTime":2495.39,"body":"in a claim against someone for that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2495.39,"endTime":2497.24,"body":"when they induce it negligently"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2497.24,"endTime":2498.75,"body":"if I was in fear of my life,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2498.75,"endTime":2500.22,"body":"and that's what did it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2500.22,"endTime":2501.99,"body":"so if I'm a primary victim,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2501.99,"endTime":2506.07,"body":"or if I see someone who's a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2501.99,"endTime":2506.07,"body":"very close loved one be harmed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2506.07,"endTime":2509.33,"body":"only then, pretty much, can I succeed."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2509.33,"endTime":2511.39,"body":"So they were left in a problem,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2511.39,"endTime":2513.56,"body":"they didn't fall into those categories,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2513.56,"endTime":2515.02,"body":"so their next option was to say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2515.02,"endTime":2517.04,"body":"did they suffer a personal injury?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2517.04,"endTime":2519.16,"body":"One of the questions the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2517.04,"endTime":2519.16,"body":"court thought about was,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2519.16,"endTime":2520.88,"body":"if someone's tissue is taken from them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2520.88,"endTime":2524.52,"body":"if their sperm is"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2520.88,"endTime":2524.52,"body":"removed, and I damage it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2524.52,"endTime":2526.36,"body":"is that a personal injury?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2526.36,"endTime":2527.94,"body":"And the court said no,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2527.94,"endTime":2528.91,"body":"this would do violence"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2528.91,"endTime":2530.8,"body":"to the notion of what"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2528.91,"endTime":2530.8,"body":"a personal injury is."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2530.8,"endTime":2531.67,"body":"A personal injury is,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2531.67,"endTime":2534.24,"body":"you cut my hand, you hit me on the head."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2534.24,"endTime":2535.943,"body":"They talk in that case about this idea of,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2535.943,"endTime":2537.156,"body":"well what if, what if,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2537.156,"endTime":2539.27,"body":"what if you're in surgery,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2539.27,"endTime":2542.05,"body":"and you are taking tissue"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2539.27,"endTime":2542.05,"body":"from one part of the body"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2542.05,"endTime":2544.275,"body":"to put it somewhere else,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2544.275,"endTime":2546.32,"body":"what if I was taking skin from somewhere,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2546.32,"endTime":2547.26,"body":"say from my hip,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2547.26,"endTime":2548.7,"body":"to put it on my arm,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2548.7,"endTime":2550.52,"body":"and on the way,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2550.52,"endTime":2553.84,"body":"you take it off, and you drop"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2550.52,"endTime":2553.84,"body":"it on the floor and damage it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2553.84,"endTime":2554.72,"body":"is that a personal injury?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2554.72,"endTime":2556.42,"body":"So they wrestle with this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2556.42,"endTime":2557.78,"body":"but they end up saying no,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2557.78,"endTime":2559.38,"body":"no, no, no, no, no, that's too far,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2559.38,"endTime":2560.71,"body":"it's only a personal"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2559.38,"endTime":2560.71,"body":"injury when it's attached,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2560.71,"endTime":2562.09,"body":"and if it's not attached,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2562.09,"endTime":2563.24,"body":"it's something quite different,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2563.24,"endTime":2564.34,"body":"we're not sure what it is,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2564.34,"endTime":2565.43,"body":"but it's not that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2565.43,"endTime":2567.09,"body":"so they reject that."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2567.09,"endTime":2570.02,"body":"So you can see these men are"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2567.09,"endTime":2570.02,"body":"hitting walls everywhere,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2570.02,"endTime":2571.74,"body":"the law's just not letting them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2571.74,"endTime":2573.31,"body":"and because the law works by categories,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2573.31,"endTime":2574.9,"body":"and it works by rules, and"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2573.31,"endTime":2574.9,"body":"it works by principles,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2574.9,"endTime":2576.96,"body":"and sometimes, a situation arises,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2576.96,"endTime":2578.69,"body":"and the law doesn't have"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2576.96,"endTime":2578.69,"body":"a category or a principle"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2578.69,"endTime":2579.523,"body":"that works for it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2579.523,"endTime":2581.62,"body":"and that's what this case is about,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2581.62,"endTime":2583.51,"body":"so they were stuck."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2583.51,"endTime":2585.0,"body":"And they didn't have a contract either,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2585.0,"endTime":2587.36,"body":"because it was an NHS hospital"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2585.0,"endTime":2587.36,"body":"that was holding them,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2587.36,"endTime":2588.193,"body":"so they couldn't even say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2588.193,"endTime":2589.6,"body":"well you've breached the contract,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2589.6,"endTime":2590.433,"body":"which would have worked,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2590.433,"endTime":2591.46,"body":"because you can have contracts"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2591.46,"endTime":2593.07,"body":"that protect you against distress,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2593.07,"endTime":2594.8,"body":"and then you can claim for"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2593.07,"endTime":2594.8,"body":"the distress you suffer"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2594.8,"endTime":2596.22,"body":"when your contract is breached,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2596.22,"endTime":2597.083,"body":"couldn't do that."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2597.94,"endTime":2599.33,"body":"They had what we like to call,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2599.33,"endTime":2601.89,"body":"there was what we normally"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2599.33,"endTime":2601.89,"body":"like to call a lacuna,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2601.89,"endTime":2604.1,"body":"the law had a hole in it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2604.1,"endTime":2606.04,"body":"and the court had to fill it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2606.04,"endTime":2607.61,"body":"because clearly these"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2606.04,"endTime":2607.61,"body":"men have been harmed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2607.61,"endTime":2609.36,"body":"and clearly they deserved a remedy,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2610.21,"endTime":2612.45,"body":"and the answer lay in property."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2612.45,"endTime":2613.73,"body":"So what they said was,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2613.73,"endTime":2616.32,"body":"all right, all right, what"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2613.73,"endTime":2616.32,"body":"if the sperm is property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2616.32,"endTime":2618.14,"body":"what if it's been preserved in some way,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2618.14,"endTime":2619.78,"body":"what if it's property in some way?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2619.78,"endTime":2620.613,"body":"If that were the case,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2620.613,"endTime":2622.257,"body":"the trust would be a bailee,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2622.257,"endTime":2624.09,"body":"and the trust has been negligent,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2624.09,"endTime":2625.92,"body":"so they've breached"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2624.09,"endTime":2625.92,"body":"their bailment agreement."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2625.92,"endTime":2627.52,"body":"And that's the way the court reasons,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2627.52,"endTime":2628.55,"body":"and they find this way,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2628.55,"endTime":2629.383,"body":"say, ha-ha,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2629.383,"endTime":2631.38,"body":"well if that's true,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2631.38,"endTime":2633.68,"body":"we could then take a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2631.38,"endTime":2633.68,"body":"step sideways and say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2633.68,"endTime":2636.44,"body":"well you've breached the bailment,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2636.44,"endTime":2637.47,"body":"we could look at contract law,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2637.47,"endTime":2639.88,"body":"which has awards for"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2637.47,"endTime":2639.88,"body":"people who are distressed"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2639.88,"endTime":2641.22,"body":"when people breach their agreements,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2641.22,"endTime":2642.7,"body":"this was a very dubious step,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2642.7,"endTime":2643.84,"body":"it's been highly criticized,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2643.84,"endTime":2646.74,"body":"and we could give you the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2643.84,"endTime":2646.74,"body":"distress measure in contract law"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2646.74,"endTime":2648.63,"body":"to make you feel better for"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2646.74,"endTime":2648.63,"body":"your psychiatric injury,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2648.63,"endTime":2650.62,"body":"and that's what they do."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2650.62,"endTime":2652.51,"body":"I, and my colleague Muireann Quigley,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2652.51,"endTime":2653.52,"body":"have criticized this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2653.52,"endTime":2654.896,"body":"as have many others,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2654.896,"endTime":2658.4,"body":"this is some legal"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2654.896,"endTime":2658.4,"body":"maneuvering, it really is,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2658.4,"endTime":2660.0,"body":"and the reason they're having to do it"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2660.0,"endTime":2662.73,"body":"is precisely because the law"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2660.0,"endTime":2662.73,"body":"didn't produce a solution"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2662.73,"endTime":2665.5,"body":"for this really clear harm to these men,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2665.5,"endTime":2667.96,"body":"but the way they achieved it was property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2667.96,"endTime":2669.48,"body":"by calling that body part property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2669.48,"endTime":2670.69,"body":"by calling the sperm property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2670.69,"endTime":2671.973,"body":"they found an answer,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2673.2,"endTime":2675.0,"body":"so that was the leap that they made."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2675.98,"endTime":2678.17,"body":"So you might think from all of this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2678.17,"endTime":2680.16,"body":"maybe if you're convinced by my arguments,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2680.16,"endTime":2680.993,"body":"you might think by now,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2680.993,"endTime":2681.99,"body":"well why is anybody arguing"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2681.99,"endTime":2683.46,"body":"that tissue should be"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2681.99,"endTime":2683.46,"body":"anything but property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2683.46,"endTime":2686.36,"body":"it seems clear, it seems very necessary?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2686.36,"endTime":2687.193,"body":"But in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2687.193,"endTime":2689.44,"body":"this isn't the approach"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2687.193,"endTime":2689.44,"body":"that the legislature takes."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2689.44,"endTime":2691.35,"body":"The old 1961 Human Tissue Act"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2692.44,"endTime":2694.89,"body":"was replaced by the 2004 Tissue Act,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2694.89,"endTime":2696.35,"body":"it doesn't take a property approach,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2696.35,"endTime":2697.61,"body":"it's a consent-based model."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2697.61,"endTime":2699.87,"body":"It's a much more well-developed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2699.87,"endTime":2701.28,"body":"really effective consent model,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2701.28,"endTime":2702.9,"body":"it's really detailed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2702.9,"endTime":2705.12,"body":"it tells you what constitutes consent,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2705.12,"endTime":2706.93,"body":"gives you lots of situations"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2706.93,"endTime":2708.16,"body":"in which it explains what to do,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2708.16,"endTime":2709.35,"body":"and it's a huge step on,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2709.35,"endTime":2712.15,"body":"and this was the reaction to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2709.35,"endTime":2712.15,"body":"the organ retention scandals"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2712.15,"endTime":2713.66,"body":"of the late 20th century,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2713.66,"endTime":2715.92,"body":"so in that sense, that's good."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2715.92,"endTime":2718.54,"body":"It preserves the work and"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2715.92,"endTime":2718.54,"body":"skill exception, that's fine,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2718.54,"endTime":2720.23,"body":"but it doesn't go"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2718.54,"endTime":2720.23,"body":"wholeheartedly for property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2720.23,"endTime":2723.01,"body":"so why is it that people"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2720.23,"endTime":2723.01,"body":"would resist this approach?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2723.01,"endTime":2724.78,"body":"Well I'll give you some"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2723.01,"endTime":2724.78,"body":"of their arguments,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2724.78,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"and then I'll tell you"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2724.78,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"why I think they're wrong."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2726.78,"endTime":2728.26,"body":"One of the reasons is that people say"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2728.26,"endTime":2729.75,"body":"body parts are special,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2729.75,"endTime":2732.18,"body":"they're not like other things,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2732.18,"endTime":2733.92,"body":"they were part of someone who lived,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2733.92,"endTime":2736.78,"body":"someone who was unique, someone"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2733.92,"endTime":2736.78,"body":"who was important to people,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2736.78,"endTime":2738.38,"body":"and it seems wrong to people"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2738.38,"endTime":2741.52,"body":"to say I'm going to treat a body part"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2741.52,"endTime":2745.17,"body":"in the same way I'm going"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2741.52,"endTime":2745.17,"body":"to treat a pen, or a clock,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2745.17,"endTime":2746.53,"body":"I'm going to put it in the same category"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2746.53,"endTime":2748.25,"body":"as pens, and clocks, and cars, and tables,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2748.25,"endTime":2749.173,"body":"that seems wrong."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2750.19,"endTime":2751.973,"body":"And in a sense, that's appealing."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2753.52,"endTime":2754.94,"body":"For other people,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2754.94,"endTime":2756.87,"body":"they think that the idea of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2754.94,"endTime":2756.87,"body":"commercializing body parts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2756.87,"endTime":2758.23,"body":"that's where the nub of the problem is,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2758.23,"endTime":2759.678,"body":"they think it's wrong to sell,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2759.678,"endTime":2763.33,"body":"it's wrong to allow markets in organs,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2763.33,"endTime":2766.81,"body":"it's wrong to allow my blood,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2763.33,"endTime":2766.81,"body":"or my plasma, or my hair"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2766.81,"endTime":2767.673,"body":"to be sold."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2769.82,"endTime":2772.07,"body":"Sometimes, that's simply"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2769.82,"endTime":2772.07,"body":"because people feel it's ick,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2772.07,"endTime":2773.85,"body":"sometimes, people just think it's wrong."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2773.85,"endTime":2775.16,"body":"The best explanation, I think,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2775.16,"endTime":2778.35,"body":"is Margaret Radin, who's"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2775.16,"endTime":2778.35,"body":"an American academic,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2778.35,"endTime":2780.39,"body":"and she says part of the"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2778.35,"endTime":2780.39,"body":"problem with doing that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2780.39,"endTime":2783.1,"body":"is when you put things that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2780.39,"endTime":2783.1,"body":"are human into a market,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2783.1,"endTime":2784.47,"body":"you make humans fungible,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2784.47,"endTime":2786.8,"body":"you make humans things that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2784.47,"endTime":2786.8,"body":"are commensurable with money,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2786.8,"endTime":2788.08,"body":"and exchangeable for money,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2788.08,"endTime":2791.51,"body":"it's how we might explain"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2788.08,"endTime":2791.51,"body":"what's wrong about prostitution,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2791.51,"endTime":2793.43,"body":"you're making me tradable for money,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2793.43,"endTime":2795.76,"body":"and that's really not"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2793.43,"endTime":2795.76,"body":"treating me as special,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2795.76,"endTime":2798.48,"body":"because I'm just exchangeable."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2798.48,"endTime":2800.41,"body":"And she says, when we do that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2800.41,"endTime":2802.52,"body":"then we begin to lose our sense"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2802.52,"endTime":2804.6,"body":"of the specialness of persons,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2804.6,"endTime":2806.0,"body":"we erode that sense"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2806.0,"endTime":2807.73,"body":"that human beings are"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2806.0,"endTime":2807.73,"body":"important and special,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2807.73,"endTime":2810.15,"body":"and you shouldn't be able"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2807.73,"endTime":2810.15,"body":"to buy them with money."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2810.15,"endTime":2811.48,"body":"And so people have used her theory"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2811.48,"endTime":2813.25,"body":"to say this is what feels wrong"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2813.25,"endTime":2814.52,"body":"about commercializing body parts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2814.52,"endTime":2815.49,"body":"they should remain special,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2815.49,"endTime":2818.22,"body":"we should think of them as"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2815.49,"endTime":2818.22,"body":"being special and important."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2818.22,"endTime":2819.7,"body":"For others, it's things like"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2819.7,"endTime":2821.37,"body":"organ donation should remain a gift."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2821.37,"endTime":2822.81,"body":"Thomas Murray, who's an"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2821.37,"endTime":2822.81,"body":"American philosopher,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2822.81,"endTime":2825.07,"body":"says gifts of the body have to stay gifts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2825.07,"endTime":2827.2,"body":"it's what bonds us as a community,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2827.2,"endTime":2828.15,"body":"it's what pulls us together,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2828.15,"endTime":2830.02,"body":"the fact that I give and you receive,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2830.02,"endTime":2831.86,"body":"and that's important,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2831.86,"endTime":2834.18,"body":"and that if we allow"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2831.86,"endTime":2834.18,"body":"ourselves to sell our organs,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2834.18,"endTime":2837.6,"body":"all of that that binds us"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2834.18,"endTime":2837.6,"body":"as a community gets lost,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2837.6,"endTime":2839.24,"body":"and that that's a terrible loss."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2839.24,"endTime":2840.39,"body":"And I think there's a lot to be said"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2840.39,"endTime":2841.813,"body":"for both of their arguments,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2842.76,"endTime":2843.89,"body":"but the thing here is,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2843.89,"endTime":2845.75,"body":"you can have property that you can't sell,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2845.75,"endTime":2847.72,"body":"property doesn't necessitate sale."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2847.72,"endTime":2850.92,"body":"I can't sell you prescription medications,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2850.92,"endTime":2852.39,"body":"I can't sell you a handgun,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2852.39,"endTime":2854.34,"body":"we can control what is saleable,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2854.34,"endTime":2855.75,"body":"but still regard them as property,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2855.75,"endTime":2858.023,"body":"so we can sever those"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2855.75,"endTime":2858.023,"body":"two concepts, I think."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2859.57,"endTime":2860.84,"body":"I also think this idea"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2860.84,"endTime":2863.03,"body":"that bodies are sacred,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2860.84,"endTime":2863.03,"body":"and important, and valuable"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2863.03,"endTime":2863.863,"body":"is absolutely true,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2863.863,"endTime":2865.22,"body":"and in fact, I've given"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2863.863,"endTime":2865.22,"body":"you lots of examples"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2865.22,"endTime":2867.363,"body":"where bodies were absolutely valuable."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2868.71,"endTime":2869.543,"body":"But in my view,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2869.543,"endTime":2870.97,"body":"property is good for that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2870.97,"endTime":2871.803,"body":"because what it does"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2871.803,"endTime":2874.5,"body":"is it allows us to protect"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2871.803,"endTime":2874.5,"body":"things that are important to us,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2874.5,"endTime":2875.333,"body":"because it tells us"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2875.333,"endTime":2878.18,"body":"who has the right to use it"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2875.333,"endTime":2878.18,"body":"and possess it, and destroy it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2878.18,"endTime":2879.663,"body":"but it lets me exclude you."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2880.8,"endTime":2883.26,"body":"So that way, I can say,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2883.26,"endTime":2884.3,"body":"my wedding ring,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2884.3,"endTime":2885.58,"body":"you can't take it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2885.58,"endTime":2888.22,"body":"it is special, it is important to me,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2888.22,"endTime":2889.87,"body":"and I can exclude you from it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2889.87,"endTime":2891.68,"body":"property actually enables me"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2891.68,"endTime":2896.68,"body":"to express my feelings of"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2891.68,"endTime":2896.68,"body":"strong importance about things"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2897.06,"endTime":2899.96,"body":"precisely because it lets"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2897.06,"endTime":2899.96,"body":"me exclude other people."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2899.96,"endTime":2901.23,"body":"So in fact,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2901.23,"endTime":2902.63,"body":"it's what we would want"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2902.63,"endTime":2904.713,"body":"to enable us to protect that sacredness."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2906.33,"endTime":2907.96,"body":"And in fact, if you think about it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2907.96,"endTime":2910.75,"body":"when you give me strong control"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2907.96,"endTime":2910.75,"body":"over my severed body parts,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2910.75,"endTime":2912.35,"body":"you're reflecting the strong controls"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2912.35,"endTime":2914.72,"body":"the law gives me over my living body,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2914.72,"endTime":2916.56,"body":"laws about rape and about assault"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2916.56,"endTime":2919.17,"body":"are all about keeping other"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2916.56,"endTime":2919.17,"body":"people out of my body,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2919.17,"endTime":2921.18,"body":"and I think of property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2919.17,"endTime":2921.18,"body":"as an extension of that"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2921.18,"endTime":2922.8,"body":"once that body part is taken from me,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2922.8,"endTime":2925.74,"body":"it's reflecting the same idea,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2925.74,"endTime":2927.24,"body":"that my body is special to me,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2927.24,"endTime":2929.773,"body":"albeit differently"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2927.24,"endTime":2929.773,"body":"special, but still special."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2932.14,"endTime":2934.723,"body":"So those are some responses"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2932.14,"endTime":2934.723,"body":"to those concerns."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2936.32,"endTime":2937.41,"body":"There are, however,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2937.41,"endTime":2939.46,"body":"some slightly better arguments than that."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2940.33,"endTime":2942.66,"body":"One of those arguments is that,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2942.66,"endTime":2944.33,"body":"one of the problems of property"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2944.33,"endTime":2946.43,"body":"is it also might give us too much control."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2947.44,"endTime":2949.98,"body":"So yes, I might protect a researcher,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2949.98,"endTime":2952.34,"body":"and their tissue becomes their possession,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2952.34,"endTime":2953.49,"body":"and they've got stable possession,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2953.49,"endTime":2954.51,"body":"and they can do their research,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2954.51,"endTime":2957.65,"body":"and they're not going to be"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2954.51,"endTime":2957.65,"body":"disturbed by me, that's great,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2957.65,"endTime":2959.64,"body":"but it might be that, sometimes,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2959.64,"endTime":2961.61,"body":"some people have so"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2959.64,"endTime":2961.61,"body":"much control over tissue"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2961.61,"endTime":2963.17,"body":"that it's a problem."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2963.17,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"So what if I transfer my"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2963.17,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"tissue away to a researcher,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2966.69,"endTime":2968.58,"body":"I give it as a gift to her,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2968.58,"endTime":2970.04,"body":"and then I change my mind?"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2970.04,"endTime":2972.26,"body":"Too late, just like when I"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2970.04,"endTime":2972.26,"body":"give you a birthday present,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2972.26,"endTime":2973.26,"body":"I can't take it back,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2973.26,"endTime":2974.167,"body":"I've made a gift to you in law"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2974.167,"endTime":2976.79,"body":"and it's not mine anymore, it's yours."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2976.79,"endTime":2977.91,"body":"That might be too much control,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2977.91,"endTime":2980.45,"body":"particularly when we remember"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2977.91,"endTime":2980.45,"body":"that tissue is special,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2980.45,"endTime":2981.53,"body":"it's got my information in it,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2981.53,"endTime":2983.07,"body":"you could learn all"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2981.53,"endTime":2983.07,"body":"sorts of things about me"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2983.07,"endTime":2985.27,"body":"and I might not be able"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2983.07,"endTime":2985.27,"body":"to stop you anymore."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2986.27,"endTime":2987.95,"body":"So the key, I think, argument"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2987.95,"endTime":2989.09,"body":"that might undermine me"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2989.09,"endTime":2991.73,"body":"is this idea that maybe"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2989.09,"endTime":2991.73,"body":"property gives too much control,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2991.73,"endTime":2992.96,"body":"its strength is its weakness,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2992.96,"endTime":2994.673,"body":"and I'll give you two examples,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2995.72,"endTime":2998.69,"body":"briefly, because we're"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2995.72,"endTime":2998.69,"body":"getting close to time."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2998.69,"endTime":3000.87,"body":"One of those is an American"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":2998.69,"endTime":3000.87,"body":"case called Colavito,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3000.87,"endTime":3003.32,"body":"and this is a case in which a"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3000.87,"endTime":3003.32,"body":"man called Peter Lucia died,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3003.32,"endTime":3005.54,"body":"and his widow tried to"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3003.32,"endTime":3005.54,"body":"give both of his kidneys"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3005.54,"endTime":3006.373,"body":"to his friend,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3006.373,"endTime":3008.66,"body":"who was in end-stage kidney disease."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3008.66,"endTime":3010.34,"body":"The friend only needed one kidney,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3010.34,"endTime":3011.173,"body":"but he wanted to make sure,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3011.173,"endTime":3012.92,"body":"he wanted to give him both."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3012.92,"endTime":3014.627,"body":"The organ donation"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3012.92,"endTime":3014.627,"body":"network didn't allow this,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3014.627,"endTime":3018.35,"body":"and so what they did was"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3014.627,"endTime":3018.35,"body":"they gave one to the friend,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3018.35,"endTime":3020.2,"body":"and the other was allocated elsewhere,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3020.2,"endTime":3021.21,"body":"but the one that went to the friend"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3021.21,"endTime":3022.24,"body":"turned out to have an aneurysm,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3022.24,"endTime":3024.18,"body":"and it wasn't any good."},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3024.18,"endTime":3026.69,"body":"So he then, and later"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3024.18,"endTime":3026.69,"body":"his widow then claimed,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3026.69,"endTime":3027.88,"body":"when he died,"},{"speaker":"and it's like Exelby and Handyside","startTime":3027.88,"endTime":3029.5,"body":"that he should have had both,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3031.24,"endTime":3032.93,"body":"the kidney was his friend's,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3032.93,"endTime":3034.58,"body":"the friend gave it to him,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3034.58,"endTime":3035.81,"body":"that was a transfer of property,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3035.81,"endTime":3037.8,"body":"it should have been his, both of them,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3037.8,"endTime":3041.13,"body":"the friend should have"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3037.8,"endTime":3041.13,"body":"been allowed to do that."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3041.13,"endTime":3042.7,"body":"And the court in that case says no."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3042.7,"endTime":3043.73,"body":"Partly, they just don't think"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3043.73,"endTime":3045.2,"body":"that organs should be property,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3045.2,"endTime":3046.3,"body":"for lots of reasons,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3046.3,"endTime":3049.3,"body":"but the particularly"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3046.3,"endTime":3049.3,"body":"important argument here is"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3049.3,"endTime":3051.33,"body":"they say that's too much control,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3051.33,"endTime":3053.56,"body":"for one person to be able to"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3051.33,"endTime":3053.56,"body":"conceptualize them as property"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3053.56,"endTime":3054.99,"body":"and do whatever they like with them,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3054.99,"endTime":3056.05,"body":"no, that's wrong,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3056.05,"endTime":3059.02,"body":"because that undermines"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3056.05,"endTime":3059.02,"body":"our ability to share organs"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3059.02,"endTime":3060.91,"body":"in a way that helps everybody,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3060.91,"endTime":3062.22,"body":"that is efficient,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3062.22,"endTime":3065.1,"body":"that allocates them so that"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3062.22,"endTime":3065.1,"body":"the most lives are saved,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3065.1,"endTime":3065.94,"body":"and that property,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3065.94,"endTime":3068.78,"body":"the strong controls that"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3065.94,"endTime":3068.78,"body":"property would give it"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3068.78,"endTime":3071.29,"body":"would actually undermine a"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3068.78,"endTime":3071.29,"body":"really morally important thing"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3071.29,"endTime":3073.43,"body":"that we're doing in the community,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3073.43,"endTime":3075.623,"body":"and I think that's a"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3073.43,"endTime":3075.623,"body":"really convincing argument."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3076.65,"endTime":3077.71,"body":"Another is the case"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3077.71,"endTime":3079.97,"body":"of Catalona and the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3077.71,"endTime":3079.97,"body":"University of Washington,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3079.97,"endTime":3080.86,"body":"and this is a case"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3080.86,"endTime":3084.31,"body":"in which William Catalona was"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3080.86,"endTime":3084.31,"body":"a researcher and a surgeon,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3084.31,"endTime":3087.24,"body":"and he had established a"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3084.31,"endTime":3087.24,"body":"bio-repository of tissue,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3087.24,"endTime":3089.28,"body":"particularly prostate cancer samples,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3089.28,"endTime":3091.943,"body":"from men that he treated"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3089.28,"endTime":3091.943,"body":"who had prostate cancer."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3093.17,"endTime":3095.55,"body":"And he went to move to"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3093.17,"endTime":3095.55,"body":"another institution,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3095.55,"endTime":3098.22,"body":"and he wanted to take the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3095.55,"endTime":3098.22,"body":"bio-repository with him,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3098.22,"endTime":3099.43,"body":"he thought it was his,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3099.43,"endTime":3100.263,"body":"I'm going to take it with me."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3100.263,"endTime":3102.09,"body":"Washington University disagreed,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3102.09,"endTime":3103.297,"body":"they realized how valuable it was,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3103.297,"endTime":3104.98,"body":"and they said no, it's ours,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3104.98,"endTime":3107.37,"body":"we own it, you can't take it."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3107.37,"endTime":3109.01,"body":"And the interesting thing for our purposes"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3109.01,"endTime":3110.52,"body":"is he then wrote to all the donors,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3110.52,"endTime":3111.8,"body":"and he said to them,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3111.8,"endTime":3114.27,"body":"can you tell the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3111.8,"endTime":3114.27,"body":"university you give consent"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3114.27,"endTime":3115.82,"body":"for me to take your sample with me?"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3115.82,"endTime":3118.259,"body":"They did, thousands of them."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3118.259,"endTime":3119.092,"body":"It didn't matter,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3119.092,"endTime":3119.925,"body":"because the court said,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3119.925,"endTime":3122.94,"body":"well actually, Washington"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3119.925,"endTime":3122.94,"body":"does own the repository,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3122.94,"endTime":3124.253,"body":"we're going to treat it as property,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3124.253,"endTime":3127.95,"body":"their reasoning's quite"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3124.253,"endTime":3127.95,"body":"confused and confusing,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3127.95,"endTime":3129.63,"body":"but they say yes, they own it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3129.63,"endTime":3131.4,"body":"and when the men donated,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3131.4,"endTime":3132.99,"body":"they made a gift,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3132.99,"endTime":3134.33,"body":"and they gave up all of their rights"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3134.33,"endTime":3135.37,"body":"to their prostate tissue,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3135.37,"endTime":3136.53,"body":"so they don't have a say anymore"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3136.53,"endTime":3138.13,"body":"because they gave it away."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3138.13,"endTime":3139.63,"body":"They had all the control,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3139.63,"endTime":3141.39,"body":"but what happens when"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3139.63,"endTime":3141.39,"body":"you give something away,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3141.39,"endTime":3143.54,"body":"when I give you a gift,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3141.39,"endTime":3143.54,"body":"or I sell something,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3143.54,"endTime":3146.08,"body":"I go from everything to nothing,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3146.08,"endTime":3148.05,"body":"and that's what happened."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3148.05,"endTime":3150.04,"body":"And so the men didn't get a say,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3150.04,"endTime":3151.63,"body":"and Washington retained"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3150.04,"endTime":3151.63,"body":"the bio-repository,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3151.63,"endTime":3154.97,"body":"even though these men"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3151.63,"endTime":3154.97,"body":"wanted to help Catalona,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3154.97,"endTime":3156.34,"body":"wanted him to take it with him,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3156.34,"endTime":3157.28,"body":"they couldn't do it."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3157.28,"endTime":3158.113,"body":"And that, I think,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3158.113,"endTime":3159.11,"body":"is the other side to this,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3159.11,"endTime":3159.943,"body":"is that, sometimes,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3159.943,"endTime":3161.0,"body":"maybe property gives too much,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3161.0,"endTime":3163.2,"body":"in the same way, in a fit of pique,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3163.2,"endTime":3164.67,"body":"I go and pawn my wedding ring."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3164.67,"endTime":3165.84,"body":"I'm furious with my husband,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3165.84,"endTime":3167.51,"body":"that's it, we're done,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3165.84,"endTime":3167.51,"body":"we're done, we're done,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3167.51,"endTime":3168.343,"body":"and I do that,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3168.343,"endTime":3169.176,"body":"and the next day I think,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3169.176,"endTime":3170.02,"body":"eugh, now I feel dreadful,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3170.02,"endTime":3171.2,"body":"of course I want it back,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3171.2,"endTime":3173.37,"body":"but it's too late, someone's bought it."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3173.37,"endTime":3176.04,"body":"The flip side of property is I"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3173.37,"endTime":3176.04,"body":"don't have an option anymore,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3176.04,"endTime":3177.04,"body":"it's too late,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3177.04,"endTime":3178.2,"body":"I had all the control,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3178.2,"endTime":3179.59,"body":"then I had none of the control,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3179.59,"endTime":3183.05,"body":"and so maybe you think"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3179.59,"endTime":3183.05,"body":"that that's too big a jump."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3183.05,"endTime":3184.52,"body":"I don't take that view,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3184.52,"endTime":3186.22,"body":"and I'll tell you why in a moment."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3188.81,"endTime":3190.95,"body":"What I think we need to see here is"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3190.95,"endTime":3192.57,"body":"that when we're thinking"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3190.95,"endTime":3192.57,"body":"about how to deal with tissue,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3192.57,"endTime":3194.0,"body":"what we need to do"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3194.0,"endTime":3196.82,"body":"is to think about what's"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3194.0,"endTime":3196.82,"body":"most important, partly,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3196.82,"endTime":3199.6,"body":"and which problems do"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3196.82,"endTime":3199.6,"body":"we need to deal with."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3199.6,"endTime":3200.433,"body":"And partly, I think,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3200.433,"endTime":3202.03,"body":"we need to make sure that we ensure"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3202.03,"endTime":3204.42,"body":"that people have legitimate"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3202.03,"endTime":3204.42,"body":"control of tissue,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3204.42,"endTime":3205.9,"body":"have that possession,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3205.9,"endTime":3207.69,"body":"have that ability to use it, protect it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3207.69,"endTime":3208.99,"body":"we don't want them to be vulnerable,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3208.99,"endTime":3210.68,"body":"we don't want bio-banks to be vulnerable,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3210.68,"endTime":3212.41,"body":"we don't want things"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3210.68,"endTime":3212.41,"body":"like Marc Quinn's \"Self\""},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3212.41,"endTime":3213.243,"body":"to be vulnerable,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3213.243,"endTime":3215.1,"body":"we don't want Body"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3213.243,"endTime":3215.1,"body":"Worlds to be vulnerable."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3215.1,"endTime":3217.31,"body":"We also don't want to leave the law"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3217.31,"endTime":3220.52,"body":"in a position where it has"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3217.31,"endTime":3220.52,"body":"to resort to legal fictions"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3220.52,"endTime":3222.58,"body":"to get to sensible outcomes,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3222.58,"endTime":3224.26,"body":"and we need to not be in the dark"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3224.26,"endTime":3225.77,"body":"about what is happening at various points"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3225.77,"endTime":3226.74,"body":"when tissue is being used,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3226.74,"endTime":3229.48,"body":"so we need an answer to the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3226.74,"endTime":3229.48,"body":"question of whose is it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3229.48,"endTime":3232.04,"body":"who gets to choose what happens to it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3232.04,"endTime":3232.9,"body":"who can give it away,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3232.9,"endTime":3235.74,"body":"and what happens when they do so,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3235.74,"endTime":3238.55,"body":"and I think property does that best."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3238.55,"endTime":3240.21,"body":"I think the key thing to say is that,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3240.21,"endTime":3242.45,"body":"yes, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3240.21,"endTime":3242.45,"body":"benefit from a consent model,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3242.45,"endTime":3245.35,"body":"one of the good things about"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3242.45,"endTime":3245.35,"body":"a consent model in the HTA"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3245.35,"endTime":3247.43,"body":"is it gives us a really careful model"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3247.43,"endTime":3250.03,"body":"thinking about what is"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3247.43,"endTime":3250.03,"body":"happening when you transfer it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3250.03,"endTime":3251.92,"body":"what do you need to know,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3251.92,"endTime":3253.51,"body":"what do you need to tell"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3251.92,"endTime":3253.51,"body":"people when it happens,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3253.51,"endTime":3254.38,"body":"so it adds in the thing,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3254.38,"endTime":3257.6,"body":"it wouldn't have this problem"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3254.38,"endTime":3257.6,"body":"that you have in Catalona"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3257.6,"endTime":3259.42,"body":"because you have to go"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3257.6,"endTime":3259.42,"body":"through this process"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3259.42,"endTime":3260.5,"body":"of getting informed consent,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3260.5,"endTime":3263.15,"body":"and really telling people"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3260.5,"endTime":3263.15,"body":"what is going to happen."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3263.15,"endTime":3264.86,"body":"So it isn't that property"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3263.15,"endTime":3264.86,"body":"has to undermine that,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3264.86,"endTime":3265.943,"body":"but what I think it does"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3265.943,"endTime":3268.25,"body":"is it does more than consent"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3268.25,"endTime":3269.41,"body":"because it tells us what happens"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3269.41,"endTime":3271.01,"body":"at all of these transfer points."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3272.44,"endTime":3274.08,"body":"So I think, in a sense,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3274.08,"endTime":3275.4,"body":"the reason that property's important"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3275.4,"endTime":3276.433,"body":"is that it answers lots of questions"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3276.433,"endTime":3278.483,"body":"that we wouldn't otherwise have answered,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3280.27,"endTime":3282.04,"body":"and I think that it gives us an answer"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3282.04,"endTime":3283.21,"body":"at any point in time,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3283.21,"endTime":3284.59,"body":"because one of the key final things"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3284.59,"endTime":3285.56,"body":"to understand about property"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3285.56,"endTime":3288.39,"body":"is it's based on the idea"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3285.56,"endTime":3288.39,"body":"of relativity of title,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3288.39,"endTime":3289.41,"body":"so we always know"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3289.41,"endTime":3291.13,"body":"who's got the best right of possession."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3291.13,"endTime":3293.04,"body":"Initially, my pen is mine."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3293.04,"endTime":3294.64,"body":"If I leave it here,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3294.64,"endTime":3297.26,"body":"if I forget it, I lose it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3297.26,"endTime":3299.33,"body":"and someone comes along,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3299.33,"endTime":3300.23,"body":"it might be the law says,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3300.23,"endTime":3301.65,"body":"well actually, Clare, and Gresham,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3301.65,"endTime":3302.89,"body":"are in control of this space,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3302.89,"endTime":3305.23,"body":"so it's theirs, they've"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3302.89,"endTime":3305.23,"body":"exerted possession over it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3305.23,"endTime":3306.96,"body":"so Clare's allowed to possess it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3306.96,"endTime":3308.64,"body":"but if I come back and say"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3306.96,"endTime":3308.64,"body":"can I have my pen back,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3308.64,"endTime":3310.7,"body":"Clare has to hand it over."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3310.7,"endTime":3312.33,"body":"If I drop it in the street,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3312.33,"endTime":3314.06,"body":"no one's controlling the street,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3314.06,"endTime":3316.16,"body":"so if someone picks it up and finds it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3316.16,"endTime":3318.4,"body":"they get to have the best right"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3316.16,"endTime":3318.4,"body":"of possession as a finder,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3318.4,"endTime":3319.233,"body":"but if I come along and say,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3319.233,"endTime":3320.52,"body":"excuse me, I've just dropped my pen,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3320.52,"endTime":3322.18,"body":"you have to give it back."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3322.18,"endTime":3324.89,"body":"But if I don't turn up for six-odd years,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3324.89,"endTime":3326.93,"body":"then you can keep the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3324.89,"endTime":3326.93,"body":"pen, and you're safe."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3326.93,"endTime":3328.57,"body":"What the law does at every point"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3328.57,"endTime":3331.03,"body":"is it tells us who's got the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3328.57,"endTime":3331.03,"body":"best right of possession,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3331.03,"endTime":3332.38,"body":"who's got the best right to this"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3332.38,"endTime":3333.71,"body":"relative to everybody else,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3333.71,"endTime":3334.73,"body":"it fills in all the gaps"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3334.73,"endTime":3336.07,"body":"in a way that consent doesn't,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3336.07,"endTime":3337.29,"body":"consent just tells me"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3337.29,"endTime":3338.87,"body":"what happens when I say to Clare,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3338.87,"endTime":3340.66,"body":"you may borrow my pen for a while,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3340.66,"endTime":3342.24,"body":"but it doesn't say what happens,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3342.24,"endTime":3343.073,"body":"if it's not property,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3343.073,"endTime":3344.19,"body":"it doesn't say what happens"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3344.19,"endTime":3345.47,"body":"if Clare gives it to one of you,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3345.47,"endTime":3346.56,"body":"and then you walk down the street,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3346.56,"endTime":3347.99,"body":"and you hand it to somebody else."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3347.99,"endTime":3349.81,"body":"Property tells you that,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3347.99,"endTime":3349.81,"body":"but consent doesn't,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3349.81,"endTime":3352.15,"body":"it only tells me about my"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3349.81,"endTime":3352.15,"body":"relationship with Clare,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3352.15,"endTime":3353.64,"body":"and that's a gap."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3353.64,"endTime":3355.41,"body":"So for me, property's the obvious answer."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3355.41,"endTime":3358.98,"body":"The final question to"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3355.41,"endTime":3358.98,"body":"think about is whose,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3358.98,"endTime":3360.58,"body":"and this is the really"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3358.98,"endTime":3360.58,"body":"interesting question,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3360.58,"endTime":3362.37,"body":"is it mine, is it yours,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3362.37,"endTime":3363.7,"body":"is it a researcher's?"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3363.7,"endTime":3365.51,"body":"Would it be better, as some people argue,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3365.51,"endTime":3367.17,"body":"that the community owns it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3367.17,"endTime":3368.57,"body":"that we are, in fact,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3368.57,"endTime":3370.03,"body":"one of my colleagues at Oxford"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3370.03,"endTime":3372.21,"body":"argues that we're all"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3370.03,"endTime":3372.21,"body":"part of the same biomass,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3372.21,"endTime":3373.76,"body":"that our bodies interact with one another,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3373.76,"endTime":3374.593,"body":"and in fact,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3374.593,"endTime":3376.6,"body":"we should see bodies as a community,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3376.6,"endTime":3378.32,"body":"as part of the community,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3378.32,"endTime":3379.82,"body":"and we should own them communally,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3379.82,"endTime":3381.76,"body":"or at least we should have a system"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3381.76,"endTime":3384.29,"body":"which enables a much more sharing,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3384.29,"endTime":3385.74,"body":"community-orientated system,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3385.74,"endTime":3388.61,"body":"which I have a great deal of sympathy for."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3388.61,"endTime":3389.443,"body":"So it might be you say,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3389.443,"endTime":3390.51,"body":"well actually,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3390.51,"endTime":3392.98,"body":"don't make the person from"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3390.51,"endTime":3392.98,"body":"whom the body parts were taken"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3392.98,"endTime":3393.88,"body":"the initial owner,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3394.78,"endTime":3395.613,"body":"that might be your view,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3395.613,"endTime":3397.94,"body":"it's not my view, but it could be yours."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3397.94,"endTime":3399.21,"body":"I think the other thing we can say"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3399.21,"endTime":3402.06,"body":"is that we can ameliorate some"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3399.21,"endTime":3402.06,"body":"of the problems with property"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3402.06,"endTime":3405.31,"body":"by simply placing rules"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3402.06,"endTime":3405.31,"body":"over the top of that system."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3405.31,"endTime":3406.143,"body":"So we could say"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3406.143,"endTime":3408.46,"body":"it can be used for some"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3406.143,"endTime":3408.46,"body":"purposes and not others,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3408.46,"endTime":3410.86,"body":"we could say that when I"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3408.46,"endTime":3410.86,"body":"transfer tissue to someone,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3410.86,"endTime":3412.68,"body":"it's a bailment, it's not a gift,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3412.68,"endTime":3415.251,"body":"so I've always got a bit of control,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3415.251,"endTime":3418.23,"body":"or we might say there's certain"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3415.251,"endTime":3418.23,"body":"things that you can't do"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3418.23,"endTime":3419.13,"body":"to protect my privacy,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3419.13,"endTime":3421.77,"body":"you can't test tissue"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3419.13,"endTime":3421.77,"body":"that's from a person,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3421.77,"endTime":3422.96,"body":"whether they own it or not,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3422.96,"endTime":3424.59,"body":"without that person's consent,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3424.59,"endTime":3426.13,"body":"so even though I've given it away,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3426.13,"endTime":3427.56,"body":"you can't do DNA testing on it"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3427.56,"endTime":3428.883,"body":"without the source's consent,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3428.883,"endTime":3431.03,"body":"or you can only do it"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3428.883,"endTime":3431.03,"body":"if it's de-identified,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3431.03,"endTime":3434.24,"body":"all of those problems I think we can fix."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3434.24,"endTime":3435.18,"body":"But fundamentally,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3435.18,"endTime":3436.53,"body":"I hope I've left you with the idea"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3436.53,"endTime":3437.61,"body":"that there is a good reason"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3437.61,"endTime":3441.12,"body":"to think of our bodies"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3437.61,"endTime":3441.12,"body":"as owned in some sense,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3441.12,"endTime":3442.27,"body":"it does make sense,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3442.27,"endTime":3443.75,"body":"it's actually, in my opinion,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3443.75,"endTime":3445.57,"body":"vitally important."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3445.57,"endTime":3447.069,"body":"Thanks very much."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3447.069,"endTime":3449.39,"body":"(audience applauds)"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3449.39,"endTime":3450.223,"body":"- Our first question is,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3450.223,"endTime":3451.827,"body":"\"Funeral directors and coroners"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3451.827,"endTime":3455.007,"body":"\"have possession of corpses"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3451.827,"endTime":3455.007,"body":"for particular purposes,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3455.007,"endTime":3457.617,"body":"\"are there any reported"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3455.007,"endTime":3457.617,"body":"case, legal or otherwise,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3457.617,"endTime":3461.14,"body":"\"where problems have arisen"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3457.617,"endTime":3461.14,"body":"as a result of this?\""},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3461.14,"endTime":3462.2,"body":"- Not so much in this country,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3462.2,"endTime":3463.84,"body":"but certainly in the United States,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3463.84,"endTime":3465.84,"body":"there were some serious problems"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3465.84,"endTime":3470.84,"body":"with mortuary staff taking"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3465.84,"endTime":3470.84,"body":"parts of bodies, selling them,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3471.94,"endTime":3474.84,"body":"and one of the key problems"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3471.94,"endTime":3474.84,"body":"was that some of those bodies,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3476.21,"endTime":3477.6,"body":"people had died of cancer,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3477.6,"endTime":3480.81,"body":"and they'd supplied tissue"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3477.6,"endTime":3480.81,"body":"into the bio-materials market"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3480.81,"endTime":3482.9,"body":"that was infected with things"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3480.81,"endTime":3482.9,"body":"like cancer and diseases,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3482.9,"endTime":3485.62,"body":"and it was very problematic,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3482.9,"endTime":3485.62,"body":"and very distressing,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3485.62,"endTime":3487.573,"body":"so certainly there have been problems."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3489.843,"endTime":3491.617,"body":"- \"In the 1749 decision,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3491.617,"endTime":3493.647,"body":"\"how did they define the corpse then,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3493.647,"endTime":3496.297,"body":"\"and on what ground were"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3493.647,"endTime":3496.297,"body":"they returned to the father?"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3498.141,"endTime":3500.047,"body":"\"Was the public policy,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3500.047,"endTime":3503.51,"body":"\"medical scientific development"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3500.047,"endTime":3503.51,"body":"ground available back then?\""},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3503.51,"endTime":3504.52,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3504.52,"endTime":3505.353,"body":"- No,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3505.353,"endTime":3507.15,"body":"so essentially that was a"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3505.353,"endTime":3507.15,"body":"case where they agreed it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3507.15,"endTime":3508.66,"body":"that they settled, in a sense,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3508.66,"endTime":3509.77,"body":"and gave it back,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3509.77,"endTime":3512.433,"body":"so they came to a reasonable"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3509.77,"endTime":3512.433,"body":"solution, in reality."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3513.33,"endTime":3514.443,"body":"We don't know a great deal about it,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3514.443,"endTime":3516.883,"body":"there's very sketchy reporting."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3517.81,"endTime":3519.75,"body":"- [Questioner] My first question is,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3519.75,"endTime":3522.62,"body":"if we're talking about owning body parts,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3522.62,"endTime":3525.69,"body":"would it make sense that"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3522.62,"endTime":3525.69,"body":"if somebody made a will,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3525.69,"endTime":3530.67,"body":"can you put that my body is property"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3530.67,"endTime":3532.486,"body":"in the terms of the will,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3532.486,"endTime":3533.37,"body":"and the second question is,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3533.37,"endTime":3535.73,"body":"if something does happen later on,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3535.73,"endTime":3536.563,"body":"and you get an amputee,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3536.563,"endTime":3538.33,"body":"and you get an artificial implant,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3538.33,"endTime":3540.143,"body":"would you need to change the will?"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3541.87,"endTime":3542.703,"body":"- Legally, at the moment,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3542.703,"endTime":3543.78,"body":"you couldn't do those things,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3543.78,"endTime":3546.01,"body":"so you couldn't say I'm"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3543.78,"endTime":3546.01,"body":"going to bequeath my body."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3546.01,"endTime":3547.09,"body":"What you can do though"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3547.09,"endTime":3549.0,"body":"is use the provisions"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3547.09,"endTime":3549.0,"body":"of the Human Tissue Act,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3549.0,"endTime":3550.56,"body":"which allows you to make certain decisions"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3550.56,"endTime":3551.64,"body":"about what's happening to your body."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3551.64,"endTime":3554.48,"body":"So you could donate it to research,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3554.48,"endTime":3556.84,"body":"but you can't make"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3554.48,"endTime":3556.84,"body":"conditional directed donations"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3556.84,"endTime":3558.26,"body":"of your organs, necessarily,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3558.26,"endTime":3559.26,"body":"say I only want it to go"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3559.26,"endTime":3561.52,"body":"to people who wear red hats"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3559.26,"endTime":3561.52,"body":"on Sundays, or something,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3561.52,"endTime":3563.22,"body":"you can't do that."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3563.22,"endTime":3566.18,"body":"You can make certain"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3563.22,"endTime":3566.18,"body":"decisions, but not others."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3566.18,"endTime":3567.88,"body":"- Professor Goold's next lecture"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3567.88,"endTime":3570.16,"body":"is on freezing eggs"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3567.88,"endTime":3570.16,"body":"and delaying fertility,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3570.16,"endTime":3571.93,"body":"law, ethics, and society,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3571.93,"endTime":3575.51,"body":"and that's on Monday the"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3571.93,"endTime":3575.51,"body":"11th of April at 1 o'clock,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3575.51,"endTime":3576.91,"body":"so please do join us for that,"},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3576.91,"endTime":3579.615,"body":"and let's thank Professor Goold again."},{"speaker":"and conceptualized it as property","startTime":3579.615,"endTime":3581.964,"body":"(audience applauds)"}]}