#105 When Grief Begins Before Goodbye

Grief is rarely neat, linear, or easy to explain — and sometimes it begins long before someone is physically gone.

In this deeply honest and heartfelt episode of Just For Today, I’m joined by a very special friend, Danielle Heath, as we open up a compassionate conversation around anticipatory and ambiguous grief, emotional overwhelm, caring for ageing parents, and the invisible emotional labour so many people quietly carry behind closed doors.

Together, we explore the complexity of holding love, sadness, exhaustion, responsibility and presence all at once, whilst also navigating our own emotional wellbeing through difficult seasons of life.

This episode is a gentle reminder that grief isn’t just about death — it can also be about change, fear, uncertainty, identity shifts, and slowly witnessing life look different to how it once did.

Whether you are supporting someone you love, processing change, or simply trying to hold yourself together through a heavy chapter of life, my hope is that this episode helps you feel seen, understood, and a little less alone.

✨ In this episode we explore:

• Anticipatory and Ambiguous grief and what it can feel like
• Caring for ageing or unwell parents
• Emotional exhaustion and overwhelm
• Holding joy and sadness simultaneously
• The emotional weight of responsibility
• Why grief often feels confusing and contradictory
• The importance of self compassion during difficult seasons
• The unseen experiences many women quietly carry

💭 A gentle reminder from this episode:

You do not need to navigate grief perfectly.

There is no right timeline.
No correct way to process change.
No medal for carrying everything alone.

Sometimes surviving the season gently is enough.

If this conversation resonates with you, please share it with someone who could also benefit from these insights. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow me on social media for more updates and inspiration.

If you are on Instgram we can connect HERE , I would love to be tagged in any shares etc.

Until next time, take care and be present.

Steph xx

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi and welcome to the Just For Today podcast. To those of you who've been here before, thank you for staying. And to those of you who are new, I'm so glad that you found me. Now you may have noticed that I've been quiet for a while. I took a step back from the podcast because life asked me to, because I was moving through my own experiences of grief. I needed space to allow it, feel it, to process it, and to find my own way through it. And now I feel ready to come back, but in a slightly different way than before. I'm creating a brand new series all around grief. Not just grief through death, but grief in all its forms, the loss of relationships, the versions of you that no longer exist, the life you thought you'd have, the things you never got to have at all. This is the series I wish I'd had for those moments that I felt lost, afraid, and deep in the heaviness of it all. And I won't just be talking about this on my own. I'm going to be sitting down with real women, having honest, intimate, and deeply vulnerable conversations about their experiences of grief, what they've been through, what they're moving through, and how they are learning to carry it. These conversations feel so important because they're raw, they are real and they're incredibly human. And whilst they will undoubtedly be vulnerable, they will also be insightful and beautiful. Because this is what just for today is all about. Learning how to navigate life as it is. So if you've experienced loss in any form, then this series is for you. Welcome to this episode of the Jesper Today Podcast. As I have been talking about recently, this is a brand new kind of genre, I guess, of the Jesper Today podcast. And this is going to be vulnerable, this is going to be raw for me as well as the women that I'm going to be talking to. But I am so excited to get this ball rolling because I think the conversations that are going to be had over the next few episodes are so important. And the subject of grief is so important. And it wasn't until the last sort of year or so that I've been experiencing anticipatory grief, which is the anticipation of losing somebody, somebody that's dying of a terminal illness, that I even realised that existed. And I felt completely alone and lonely in my grief. I've experienced loss of a sibling, I've experienced loss of grandparents. I've never experienced this type of grief when the person is still alive, but they're dying in front of you. And as a daddy's girl, um, it's been really difficult to watch this rock solid alpha male who I turn to for everything slowly disappear before my very eyes. And I can do nothing about it. And from going from being his child, and I'm 51, but I'm still his child, to his his now carer, essentially, um has been one heck of a transformation for me and a transitional period. And it's been hard and dark, and it's put me on my knees many, many times. Um, hence why I stepped away from podcasting for a while. But I think these conversations are really important, and I think they're not spoken about enough. Grief in its all in all its forms is not spoken about enough. Um, so this is why I am back to have these conversations. So let me introduce you to my first guest. And when I was thinking, who I've got so many women in my world that I could bring in to speak with me, Danielle came to mind immediately because she's not only a very, very special friend of mine, she's also experiencing a similar form of grief as what I am. Both from we're both daddy's girls, we're both um very, very close with our dads. Um, but Danielle's is slightly different to mine, so I absolutely wanted to bring Danielle into the conversation. So are you ready, Danielle?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I'm well enough. Am I gonna get through this? Oh, just the incidental show. I know, I know, but I I think it's amazing to start with that we're just back here again.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Goodbye. I know. I was talking earlier on about when we met, and I think it's probably about 10 years ago now, um, and it was just through different relationships with different people in our lives, and it's kind of brought us together, and we've gone through transitions of working together to now um not working together, but we are very good friends, and actually, your experience started before mine. Your dad got sick before my dad did. But it's very interesting how you came into my life and we've transitioned through things so similarly together, it's like we were meant to meet at that point because there's been many times where we could have met, which we haven't, and now all of a sudden you're back in well, you was back you came into my life, and with what you're what's happening with your dad, and then for my dad to get sick, we've kind of been voice noting back and forward, this is shit, this is hard, this is shit, this is awful.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

I'm so angering together. I know, like recording together of all those voice notes. I mean it's worth of oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I know, I mean, yeah. I'd be lost without those though, because having someone that relates to it, even though yours is different. What is the grief that you're experiencing called?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Ambiguous. However, I didn't know that. I haven't known that. Um, it's only recently you start to look into why you're feeling the way you do and kind of what's going on in your mind off the back of everything that's happening, that this ambiguous word come up and that it actually exists.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

But it's funny isn't it? Because you find the word and I remember sending it to my brother and going, This is it.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

It's like, oh my god, finally someone's explaining. Because I completely because the judgment or the shame or the guilt that you feel for having all these emotions, because that person's still here. And then you're judging yourself because other people have lost their parents and the parents died, and you're like, Well, mine's still here. Why am I here?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things is that ambiguous grief. There's a part of you that feels like you should be grateful because you've still got that person, yeah. And you know, I can still sit with him, I can still talk to him, I can still, you know, spend time with him, and I should feel grateful for that. Yeah. And I don't there's part of me that doesn't, yeah, and part of me that does, which makes it even more confusing.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

It is really confusing. So take me back, what what happened with dad?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Um, four years ago, dad had uh stroke. Right, okay. Life-changing. Yeah. Um so tell me about the man he was before. Strong, independent, love to control absolutely everything, sociable, outgoing, fun, loud. Um and who was he to you?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

My dad. Mm-hmm. We're both gonna set each other off, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

We are gonna set each other off. I think it's dads and daughters, isn't it? Um, close relationship.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah. And I think we were probably we're both from the same generation of parenting as well, where dad is a certain role, mummy's a certain y'all. Um and I I know we both feel about our dads the same way. I know we do, because we've discussed this many times. So why would you go to your dad? What would what did your dad who was he in your life?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Um just like go to for advice. It's just, you know. I don't think you realise until it's not there what what it is you have.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Um But you we were just a close, close family. Um the four of us just I think you just hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

You don't know you didn't get it worked out. You didn't know who he was until he wasn't there anymore.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Not really, no. Because I don't I just think when you're younger, you just take it for granted. They're your parents, they look after you, you know. You rely on them, they're always there. And I think, you know, when he had the stroke, your life literally changed with a flick of a switch.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Overnight. Uh there was nothing we could do, you're not prepared for it, there's no lead up to it. It kind of just happened, and I think for the first few years, you still hang on to that hope that something's going to get better, this isn't gonna stay like this. Um and it and it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I I recently said to Grange, um, I fucking hate hope. I'm so fucking sick of hope because it just destroys me every time I adapt uh adopt some hope. And I said to my group, some of my friends in my group recently, please stop saying still here, just be grateful for the good days because that means nothing to me.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

It really kills you inside, and the pain is because you know they're still here, you've still got them. Be grateful for that because some people haven't that you know, some people have it where people die and they're experiencing grief. But I think the pain is the same, yeah, similar.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, I I I think that long drawn-out process and watching like my dad would be the man that would have my back in every room.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, like I couldn't do wrong in his eyes, no matter no matter what I did. And even still, he is still here, he's his brain still works. Like he was left with life changing disabilities, he lost the ability to speak, he has aphasia, um, he can't read, he can't write, um, he can't walk, he can't, he can't do anything for himself without support. Um, and that that's that's hard. Yeah. The the inability to communicate side of it. Yeah. I think if he had a voice, it might be a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I think you recently heard his voice, didn't you watch something recently? Or was there a video you I remember you met you voice noted me as I was? I was trying to voice.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

I wrote in video and I still can't with the speech because this is the strangest thing because I sit there and I can't remember his voice. And this is a person that's still here. That's the sort of thing you say when someone's passed away. Yeah. I can't remember what they sound like. Yeah. He sits in front of me. I can't remember what he sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, it's it's so difficult, and I think grief in its entirety is not spoken about enough. Certainly in the Western world. I don't think we talk about grief because it's too sad, it's too um, I know when when Kate died, my sister died, people didn't know how to speak to me, they didn't know how to interact with me. And some people would say the most ridiculous things like, Oh, we know well, you know, oh sorry to hear of you lost. Oh, I get all really awkward around you. So that grief type of grief when someone dies is difficult enough. But for people to know how to respond to us when that that lip person is still alive, I think it's it's so difficult because it's not spoken about.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I just don't expect it anymore because I just I think even people that are going through similar still don't know how you feel. I think everyone feels different, everyone experiences different, nobody can feel your pain. Nobody's ever gonna understand how you're feeling about it, no matter how much you explain it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

No, I think it is really difficult. That's what makes it so lonely. Because I know obviously your husband just lost his dad as well, and he had a debilitat bit debilitating sort of life illness, didn't he, that was going on for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I think something was gonna come eventually. Um it was coming up to a year on the 20th of May, actually. Um, but that that's a big part of the story as well, because when my dad got sick, I still had Carl's dad and I enjoyed going to see them because he was there, yeah, and then that was taken.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

He's now gone. And that then you think is I mean it's obviously very um relevant to our age because so many people around us now are losing parents. I see it all the time on Facebook people posting lost my this, lost my mum, lost my dad, and that and I just I I kind of got to a point last week where I just said I'm so fucking sick of all of this. I'm so fucking sick of reading people losing their parents, struggle that my dad's disappearing before me, and it I'm just over this. Like, what is this phase that we're not talking about? Because we're raising children, the majority of us are raising children, and you get to a point where you think life's supposed to get easier, and then my kids are obviously a bit older than yours, they're in their 20s, and I still find that challenging. And I'm like, this is my time, and now our parents start fucking dying.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

You know, it's like there's a stage, isn't there? Like I mean, you go through your 30s and everyone's having children getting married, or yeah, it's fun and exciting, you're going on Hendus, or you know, baby showers, galore, um, and then suddenly you hit your 50s and you have that, no.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

But I think that's that's the thing. We are so unprepared for loss and death because none of us want to talk about it. Yeah. And it's gonna happen. It's all we're all going to die. I don't know why people are so afraid to talk about loss in all its forms. There's so many different types of grief. So, with with your dad, how is he what is your day-to-day or your week to eat with dad now?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Um, it's been it's been a struggle. I think for the last three, coming up to four years in July. Um, he he was in hospital for a long time. He went into a care home for a little while. We took him home to our family home. Um, and then we moved had to move out of the family home. So there there's uh multiple different milestones we've had to go through. I think that was one of the hardest decisions we've ever had to make. Is that's the place where he just built everything for us, kept us safe, kept us secure, and I don't think I'll ever forget the day I had to wheel it.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Out of the house. Of that house. Of that house. Of the family where you grew up, where everything kind of happened.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Did you feel like you're just he's got nothing left in him but self and you're just taking away that thing that he just he loved that house. I don't know why um you're taking away something else away from him, like he hasn't been for enough. And I d I think it's really weird because I look back at that family home and I can't remember. Well, can't you remember? Just memories apart from that day.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Just block it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, maybe it's that self-protection. I just can't allow myself to think that. Me and my brother talk about it a lot about when my dad goes and selling the family home. God and blubberin, aren't they? Fine. How was I gonna do this without and and there the the home that my dad currently lives in was my family home.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And my sister lived there. You know, there's memories that we're gonna have to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah. When I say I can't remember, I can't. There's there's silly little things that I remember, but I remember more the family home we were in before that. Maybe because I now associate that it's where it happened, but it's just like you just want to block it out. Maybe I don't know. And then we obviously we were talking about how the journey's gone. Um and we moved them closer to where I am so I could help. And they now live in a bungalow. Things were a little bit easier, and we have carers which have come with challenges as well along the way. Um, and I think me being me, I'm always trying to find a solution, always trying to find an answer. I'm always trying to fix it. You're smiling because you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Um I know you're you're uh what we would call in the disc personality profiling world, you're a D-star, which is someone that likes results all the time.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I want to sort it out, I want to resolve it, I want to make it better. But you know, this is something I can't. No. I can't do it. And how difficult is that being for you? It's really hard. Because I think up until this point, there's always been something I can fix. I can get the right carers, I can get the right help for him, I can fight. He hasn't got a voice, so it's been a battle. I'm continuously fighting the healthcare system and trying to navigate it. Um, and I've pushed and pushed and pushed, and it's exhausting. Um, but I think I you sent me something the other week, and I said, I actually don't feel anything from those words. And you said maybe you've reached a point of acceptance, which I think I have to a certain degree. I don't think you ever reach that point of I accept it and that's okay. You know, it's never, it's never gonna be the same again.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

No, it completely changes. And grief isn't that linear, it isn't this, then this, then this, then this. You know, even with my sister, I've accepted she's gone. Of course I have. She's been gone nearly 30 years, but there's still some days where I'm really fucking angry about the fact that she's gone. And I was talking to a friend the other day and she was talking about her sister, and I was like, Don't ever stop talking about her, but I just need to tell you I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous that you get to have these adventures with your sister, and I don't want you to feel you can't tell me that. Yeah, but I need to express my emotions in this thing. I'm just so jealous, and I'm so sad, but I don't have that. And um, I think that's the grief, isn't it? We bounce back and forward all the time, it's never as raw as it was the first day it happened.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Or feel completely okay one day. You can be driving along, hear a song on the radio, and that's it, isn't it? You're crying your eyes out, but you can't explain why.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

I was driving yesterday with my dad, and I was driving him home from seeing his partner in the sun's shining, and I had my roof down, and I've got a playlist on my Spotify that it's all my dad's favourite song, so I had that blaring. And my dad can't sing anymore because he hasn't got enough air in his lungs anymore. But he was tapping away in Bubby's head, and I was fighting to keep my shit together, and I was just dabbing my eyes because I was having a moment of this is such a beautiful moment, yeah, and it's probably one of the last I'm gonna have, and I want to appreciate this moment, but I'm so fucking sad as well. I know you're getting me because the sadness of watching this person.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Do you want to hug?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

No, we don't we don't hug, we're not huggers. I'm glad you said that. I was with someone the other day and I started crying and they said, Do you want to hug? No, nope, back up, back up. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah, but my friends will be laughing watching this.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

There's so much sadness of just watching that person disappear.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, it it is really sad, and it's out of your control. There's nothing you can do.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

And that person that used to care for you is now reliant on you. I'm looking after them.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

And they don't like that either. And I know your dad can't vocalise that, my dad does, and he will say, I hate being relying, I hate because he's so your dad was the same fiercely independent men, did all the finances themselves, and now you know, I'm managing that, I'm managing his meds, my brother's doing all of the cleaning and that for him, and and he hates it. Absolutely hates it.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

And that ex that you know, we s we often talk about how does that they they're also of that generation where they don't talk about their feelings.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Obviously, your dad can't communicate, but he does communicate in some ways, in in some ways, and the you know, we still you know my mum is around as well, so she's obviously always there. She doesn't leave his side, she cares for him like 24-7. Um but she's also quite vulnerable and you know, going through a life-changing experience where she was reliant on dad for a lot of things. Yeah, it was very kind of 1950s tight house boy. He looks after the money, he d did all, you know, did all that, always make the decisions with certain things, and then she suddenly found herself in this place where none of that's being done anymore. And and I've kind of taken that role in helping and supporting with that side of things as well, and often just sit there and think, what would that do? But I I still go and talk to him, I still ask him, his brain still works, and then there are I I talk about all the sad parts, but there are still positive moments where mum's fussing around and then yeah, he'll raise his eyebrow. He's still there, and the personality still comes out every now and then, and I still see that side of him, and I can sit and have a joke with him. No one else would get it because he doesn't speak, but we get it, yeah. Um, and it and it, you know, it's nice. There are times when it's nice, but he had a little bit of a setback this week medically. He didn't get the news he wanted for on on you know another part of his body that isn't quite working as it should. Um, and he was absolutely sobbing, and it's just heartbreaking to see your parents cry.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I think your dad cry as well. Like for your mum, it's obviously there's those gender stereotypes, but that generation of men.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

He was sobbing, and then I, you know, I'm gone at that moment because he because of his disability, he can go from one extreme to the other, he can be very, very angry and aggressive or very upset and he'll be inconsolable. I think I prefer it when he's angry and aggressive, because I'm just like, come on, you're fighting. But when he's at that point, I just feel like, oh my god. What do you do in those moments? Cry with him? You just cry, I hug. I hug. Oh my god. I hug him, I just hold his hand.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

I just I know you've been through a lot of those moments because I know your mum is there and she's caring for him and she's doing all of those amazing things for him, but I think your dad leans on you in a different way, just because there is kind of a kindred spirit connection that you have. You are your father's daughter, so I think there's a different connection you have.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah, we have um cameras in the house because of you know, we've had bad experience with carers and things like that. Um, and there's been moments where I've woken up suddenly in the middle of the night for no particular reason, and I've looked at the camera and something's wrong. I just you just I just know I know. I could be going about my day quite normally, and I just get a feeling something's not quite right. And nine times out of ten, you're always. There's something wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

It's like he's sending out a dancing. That looks a bit like you with your children. Well, because you have become the parent in this relationship, as have I to some degree, not quite the same as you, but you have become a parent in this role. Yeah, you flipped, haven't you? So I guess that ex that intuitive connection that you have with your children is now there for your dad. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It's crazy. But it's very beautiful. It is. There are there are, you know, when we talk about ambiguous grief and that feeling, I get I feel guilty because I should feel grateful. I do that half of me feels grateful, half of me doesn't. I don't feel grateful for my dad having to experience this and go through whatever. I can't even explain it anymore what it is because. That just don't know what happens next.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

What would you say to somebody that doesn't know how to talk to you about it? What do you want from people? People often say to me, What do you need from me when I'm sad or angry or feeling those emotions? What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I don't know. I really don't know what I could say to some just just maybe sometimes just listen. Underst I understand that that person's going through a grieving process. My dad just isn't just sick and that's it. You know, there's everyone's got a sick parent or s or someone I know that's unwell out there, but it's the people around him that are significantly suffering as well. Yeah. Um and it is grief. It is. No, it is. And I don't think it's seen as grief. And I think that's the hardest part because you kind of no matter how I explain it, oh yeah, dad's sick, and this is happening and that's happening. I'm talking about him, but actually inside I'm breaking. And it's not and I don't feel like people see that.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

No, and I think there's that again coming back to that the uncomfortableness as well of I'm not understanding it to just saying something.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

What do you say to someone, yeah? Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And I I've always said in relation to my sister, just don't say anything. Or just say, I don't know what to say. But I care about you, or if there's anything I can do, or I'm so sorry, or but don't try and make it better because you can't make it better.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

You can't. You can't take it away. No. Um that that's why it's so that's why it's not spoken about. No. Because it's so uncomfortable and there are no answers. No, there's there's nothing, is there?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

No. And I think we live in a world of trying to ignore uncomfortable emotions across the board anyway. No one wants to feel sad, anger, anxious, all of those uncomfortable emotions. They want the joy and the happiness, and that's they're trying to push you into that zone. And there's some days where I just want to wallow. I just want to wallow in my sadness, actually. Thank you very much. And if you're not okay with that, then go away. But I'm just gonna wallow today, and I don't want to hear, well, he's still alive, or just think positive, or maybe they'll find something, or well, they're not going to. My dad's dying, you know that.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

But people I think people say it's trying to make you feel better. Yeah, yeah. My dad, he's still here, yeah, he is. Wonderful. But he's sat on his arse all day, not being able to live his life as he should be at that age. He's not old. And it makes me angry. You've got that anger as well. Yeah. That type I can go from being, you know, sad like I have been today talking about this, and it makes you cry. I'm also really fucking angry. What are you angry about? That it's happened. Are you angry to do it? Does he deserve it? Do people deserve? Do you ever feel any anger towards him? No. I did, I think at first. Because I think could you avoid could you could you have avoided it? With certain changes to your life, but then I think no, he lived his life. How he wanted to live in it. It's not up to me to say this is what you should have done or you shouldn't have done, but he he he did live his life, how he wanted to live his life. And do you know what he still is? He's still telling these carers and my mum exactly what he wants, without actually verbalising it. He will be very specific about how he gets things done. He's still there. He's still there, he's still making decisions. Yeah. He's stubborn, mate. He's a stubborn old mite as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Someone once uh recently said to me, Oh, cancer's such a cruel disease because my dad's got lung cancer. Yeah. It's such a cruel disease. And I don't feel like that in relation to my dad. I don't, because my dad was a smoker, I don't feel angry at my dad because he lived his life and over the choices he made. I don't I just feel Did you though, at first? No, I've never felt sad that he's inflicted this upon himself. Never felt like that. I just I've felt sad that it has come to what it's come to. The the things that I feel sad most for him is that again, generational thing, putting everything off to retirement. I'm gonna live my life when I stop working, and then he's retired, he he's been forced to retire. He doesn't have a life, he can't live those lives. His part his partner, she did the same. She's had a stroke, as you know. She's now life limiting, um, restricting in how she gets about. So they've put off. And if anything, this has taught me, fucking do it. You know, like I mean Oh my god. Grange will laugh.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

I don't think we've had so many holidays in the last four years. We're like off, but it it has made me realise literally it happen it can happen overnight and you make the most of it. You don't know what's round the corner.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

No, you really don't. And my sister's death taught me that, but more so now, watching my dad get to retirement and not be able to spend that money. Spend the money, but not be able to do that. And Grange would laugh at the financial advice here today, I know. We're both at different ends of perspective and Grange is a saver and investor, he looks at his pension every week. It's like, why are you looking at your pension again? Well, I want to see what is gonna block. And I'm like, fuck it, might not get there, let's live now. So we meet in the middle, because obviously we've got to invest for the future because let's hope we live that long. But dad's yeah, hearing dad with the regrets of I wish we'd gone on more holidays, I wish we'd done more than that. You know, hearing all that, I'm like, I not I'm not living that life. I'm not living that life of regret. And I think that's death has shown me that, or illness has shown me that, um, for sure. But what is the um I always talk about on this podcast about collateral beauty? You definitely heard me talk about this a lot. What is your collateral beauty that you've taken out of all of this so far?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

I I think I've changed as a person. Um it has been life-changing. Um don't worry about the smaller things, the little things, the dramas, the you know, people arguing. I just I just haven't got the energy to get involved, and I think, is it really worth it? Are these things that important that we really need to be battling against one another in life? And I think it's made me a lot more chilled, strangely enough. Um a lot more accepting of other people's opinions and ways of wanting to do things. I wasn't like that before. I think I was very opinionated. Um, I would say things how they are, but I I do take a step back now and I just I just it doesn't bother me. It's giving it maybe because I haven't got the energy, or maybe just because I'm thinking differently, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Oh, it definitely rewires you in a way. I think it definitely creates a whole different neurological pathway of is this really worth the ag? Yeah. Do I really need to spend my time thinking about this? Is this really going to bring any value to my life if I get involved in this, this, or whatever? It definitely changes that. And I think it's a s it's a shame that loss and difficult situations give us that perspective, but I think it definitely does. I think most people would agree with that, that have gone through a loss or an illness or a loss uh death for sure. So, what would you say to someone that's listening right now that's maybe going through something similar to what you are? I know you've been on your knees with your loss as well. I know there've been days where you've just felt completely overwhelmed. What would you say to them to do in those moments? Because you are at kind of four years on.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Just take some spake some sp I'm looking at city space here. Take the space um for yourself. Um don't feel guilty for what's happening. There's no guilt there. You're just experiencing feelings, thoughts. I don't think there's any other advice really apart from you've you've got to take time and try and understand what you're going through. Allow it. Allow it, that's what I'm looking for, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah. Last week I picked up a book, I sent you a picture, and I don't think it was something that would work. I think for me, journaling is a big outlet, therapeutic outlet, and it's the painful goodbye book, words to that. I can't remember the exact title. And one of the things was one of the journal points was what's something you're afraid to say out loud that you've you're feeling immense guilt for. And guilt for me is an emotion that's valid, but only if you've deliberately done something to hurt another person, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

And I was like, What what am I feeling guilty about? And the g the feelings I was feeling guilty about was that I just want some peace.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I crave it so much. But peace is-When is the pain gonna go away? But peace for me means he's gone, yeah. And then the pain gets even worse or it changes, it becomes something different. And that's frightening as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

That is, and I think we've experienced both in the last year, and I see how Carl has coped with grief or hasn't coped with grief. Or yeah, um, and we watched his dad pass away slowly over a couple of weeks, and that was just as hard. But but it it there was an there was an end, and then there was closure. Yeah, and then we moved through the process of you know, the milestones coming up, the year is about is upon us. Um your grief, you know it's coming, don't know when it's gonna come. Um I I have no idea what tomorrow holds. Nothing. And as humans it's what we crave, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 31:39

We crave like just want to know what's gonna happen. We just to crave that kind of sense of stability, and this is so un destabling. Is that the right word? Unstabilizing. It's all of that, and it's just I feel like sometimes I can't find like hold on to because I just think yesterday was a really good day. Today so I enjoyed that, but now you've just thrown a curveball at me again, and it's like, oh my god, are we closer now to the end? You know, and you're getting closer, then you move back, and then you get and like I said to you earlier on, hope just for me is just a prick someday. Just like that's just cut right off hope, because I'm just sick and tired of you g giving it to me and then taking taking it away the next day. But equally half strong are dads.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Ah it's incredible fighters, absolute fighters. Yeah, and my dad said to me yesterday, I'm not giving it to look up to them in a way.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Oh, massively, and his legacy will is is within me. I I'm so much like dad, you're so much like your dad. And we live that legacy, and we always will. But I yeah, it's it's it's it's not easy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having this conversation with me. I know, but I think this has been a really beautiful conversation. I'm really grateful for you.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Maybe that is the answer. Speak more.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

100%.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Speak about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Welcome.