In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 75: Future-proofing theological schools?
Rick Staisloff, a consultant with a long history in higher education, explores how theological institutions can thrive amid change by embracing strategic partnerships and shared services. He stresses the importance of aligning with student needs and maintaining a mission-driven approach while calling this a historic time that demands courage. You can find out more about Rick here.
Hello and welcome to the Intrus Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. It's said that the only constant is change. And if that's the case, the issue really then becomes how do we deal with change? In the field of theological education, we've certainly talked about that. How we're changing, how we change, the forms of change, business models, and the speed of which things are happening. Here today to talk about that, to talk about the field, what he's seen, and how people can navigate that is Rick Stazloff. He's no stranger to the Interest Center and the Interest Center's work and this podcast. He is the founder and senior partner of the RPK group and has a long history in higher education. He has been one of the leading voices in the discussion on sustainable business models in higher education and in theological higher education as well. Rick, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks, Matt. It's great to be back here with you. Always great to have you. Let's start a little bit about an overview of what you're seeing in the field. I think one of the things that I appreciate about your work is that you bring all of this experience in the finance side and business models, partnerships, you know, the organization, and the perspective of the higher education as a business and uh obviously a calling in what somebody would say is a calling, certainly. But you've seen those trends play out in the broader field of higher education. So you bring all this experience to theological education. And I tend to think, as we were talking uh before I hit the record button, tend to think theological education in some ways is some years behind what, as a sector, what many people in the in higher education as a whole have gone through in terms of consolidations, partnerships, uh, mergers, closures, et cetera. So let me stop talking there and let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the field. And then you can certainly tell me I'm wrong. You wouldn't be the first person. Um, but tell me a little bit about what you're seeing and perceiving in the field.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. You know, it it feels like we're in a moment in history for higher education, meaning all the things that are happening, the pace of change, as you said earlier, the boldness of change. There are things that a decade or more from now, I think we'll be looking back and saying, wow, that was a real period where things started to shift. So, you know, what is that shift? Well, first and foremost, I think that we have started to normalize the conversations around strategic partnership. And it wasn't that long ago that there was a real reluctance to talk about strategic partnerships. And I don't just mean, you know, mergers and acquisitions, but shared service models, sharing faculty and programs or facilities, resources. Uh, there was very much an element of what we do in every facet is somehow unique. We have to do it ourselves because we do it better than everybody else. And so for leaders or board members to start talking about strategic partnership, not too long ago, would have been, in their minds, some admission of failure. I don't think that's where we are today. Matter of fact, I think we've come so far as boards and senior leaders realizing that if they're not talking about strategic partnerships, really they're not doing their job. That part of leadership today should involve an exploration, not necessarily a decision, as to whether we could do what we do better in partnership with others. So that right there, in and of itself, I think is a huge shift.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. That's an interesting point because uh in other industries I've been part of, including the media, certainly to even consider a partnership, unless you were the strong partner, it was it was very much a win-loss.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Now you're right about that. And I think that's part of the opportunity that uh, and probably one of the bigger opportunities higher ed has at this moment is to say we have all these common needs, you know, certainly from a backroom administrative perspective, which tend to be the easier to step into in terms of how might we come together for procurement, for facilities management, for security, grounds maintenance, maybe even up into buying insurance together. Um, there's all sorts of opportunity to provide those services at lower cost, which benefits everybody. Taking it a step further from a shared service model perspective into sharing faculty, offering programs jointly allows institutions to continue to offer a robust set of program choices, but to do it again at lower cost, which everybody benefits from. Those are steps that institutions can take without losing institutional identity, right? We're not we're not merging at that point. We're just figuring out how to come together so that where that Venn diagram intersects, we're offering things together. And I think that's a it's a great place to start. You know, why not take care of the backroom pieces? Why not think about how to join together programmatically, at least as an exploration? Yeah, it's a little bit different than going further down the path towards an actual merger acquisition, and we can probably save that for a little bit later in our conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you know, one of the difficulties in theological education is there's a sense of we're the only ones who do this. And by this, what I mean is our certain brand of theological education. So our schools all have some sort of uh denominational or theological commitment, which I think makes some of this tricky. And I say that because there are probably some people listening right now who are going, well, you don't get us, right? They always you don't get us. Um, and and my feeling has been there are some theological commitments, obviously. If you're if you're a Roman Catholic school, your your plan is to make Roman Catholic priests and theologians and laity. As you point out, though, there's a lot of similarities with us, and there's even potential crossover. What are you hearing or what are you seeing in the field? Is there that is that dawning on people that maybe there are some things weather programmatically, but certainly in the back shop they could do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, one of the first things I say to boards and senior leaders, Matt, as we get into this work with them is if you want this project to be successful, you have to accept that it's not about you. And everybody goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, it's not about me, but boy, it can become about me real fast, right? And what do I mean by that? It means first and foremost, we have to center on our students. What is it our students really need from us while honoring, of course, our core missions. I don't think there's anything around strategic partnership that takes us away from our mission orientation. Matter of fact, I think it is a huge asset in thinking about how do you create a sustainable business model that supports your mission and allows you to bring it forward in new ways. Certainly, we've talked about all these backroom administrative kind of shared service models that, regardless of your particular orientation, I think can serve institutions, theological institutions of all stripes. So I think that's probably not really an issue if institutions can allow themselves to come together in that way. But even programmatically, I think there are some core elements of theological education that get shared across institutions that could allow institutions to take advantage of those kinds of approaches. Now, if it were the case that institutions weren't quite ready to go there in terms of sharing programs, sharing faculty, well, certainly within our various faith traditions, right, there are many different institutions that often have a similar set of needs that give you a first step towards sharing those resources, towards coming together quite candidly, towards learning from each other to do it and do it better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I tend to think, and I don't know that this is the right analogy, but it strikes me as when the internet came along and we started to do things online, and people said, Well, we can't do things online. Right. You know, that's not our brand, it's not who we are, we have to do it in person. And then, of course, 2020 came along, and everybody realized, well, maybe we can do it, at least big chunks of this, um, in this way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, it's part of again what I think good leaders have to do. One of the most important things leaders do is point. We could go there, we could go look like this, whether it's your example, Matt, of oh, we have this new way to engage in terms of the internet. How do we do it in a way that's still true to who we are and how we offer what we offer? Well, I think the strategic partnership question is the same, in that leaders can point towards what the institution wants to go become. That requires, though, something really critical, Matt, and that is that institutions have a very clear shared future vision and that they position themselves to be proactive. Too often, what I see happening is that institutions call us, and the conversation goes kind of like this Hey Rick, we got a call from ABC University. They think they want to partner with us. Do you think we should partner with them? And I always say, Well, where are you going? And it's on pause, right? So until you're clear about what is it we want to go become, you can't really ask yourself the question of can we get there on our own? Do we want to get there on our own? Do we need a partner? What kind of partner? Like what is the gap that they would fill for us? If you can get clarity there, then you can get proactive. I always say you want to move from who's knocking on your door to you know, whose door do you want to go knocking on so that you can be thinking about the partner and how they fit in with your ultimate shared future vision. That allows institutions, I find, to move more quickly into partnership because they don't they already understand, at least in some ways, how that intersection might best occur.
SPEAKER_00:It's a little concerning to me to hear you say that there are schools who are like, well, we don't when you ask the question, where are you going? There's a pause.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, and it because it's a hard question, isn't it? Sure it is. If you're thinking, how do I do what I'm doing today a little bit better? I think you're missing the moment in history. This is not a moment to be doing it a little bit better every year. This is a moment planfully, thoughtfully to be thinking more boldly. Here's an easy way to ask that question, not maybe an easy answer. If you built your institution today from scratch, would it look exactly the same? I think the honest answer in almost every case has to be no. There would be some things never let go of, right? Because they're so they're just too core to identity and mission, and you shouldn't, and you need to lift those up. But there's lots of ways we do things that you know they were maybe perfect for early 1900s or 1960, but not for the institution you built for 2024 and beyond. And that's the shared future vision piece that I think that institutional leaders really have to get front and center on.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's in theological education, it's one of the upsetting, and I don't necessarily mean a bad way, but one of the things that certainly upset the field was several schools that came on and just said we're going to be online only. And there were people who said, You can't do this work just on online only. Now there's there that's a whole separate conversation. The the question though was what was the mission? If the mission was to train ministers, then the question becomes how to best do that, which I think goes to your point is if you're going to create your institution today, what does that look like? There's a lot to grapple with in that question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it really gets to the heart, right? Of identity and mission and moving off all of the historical basis we have into this better understanding of what's the job that your students are asking you to do for them. And if there are ways that you are trying to meet that job that no longer meet the needs of students, I think it's time to let go of those ways. And to be open really to new ways of education and training and mission fulfillment. But it's hard. And I think it's one of the reasons, Matt, why you know you often think about carrots and sticks. Now, it's there have been some wonderful carrots put out there. You know, we think about some terrific funding from the Lilly Foundation to support this movement towards strategic partnership. I think of the great work that Intrust is doing and ATS to lift up best practice and show case studies, you know, like a different way forward. And from a STIX perspective, there's just the reality in terms of enrollment declines, in terms of resource constraints, etc., that I think are collectively going to force institution towards change. So you have to ask yourself do you want to get your hands on the wheel and be part of outlining what that change looks like? Or are you going to wait until it gets forced on you and then you have less time or less control to make smart decisions?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's that's a good point. One of those sticks, as you mentioned, and and this is something in I was in higher overall higher education before it came to theological higher education, and you know the conversation there for years had been the the age age drop, you know, that there were fewer students, potential students for the traditional, you know, the the traditional four-year, 18 to 22-year-old. That that cliff was coming and is come. In theological education, that's been there as well. Um that's one of the real sticks, is that you may not have whether it's through uh denominational decline in many denominations, whether it's through age, whether it's it's any number of things involved in that, the cliffs here. That's a stick. So ta let's talk a little bit about this. Because if I'm the president or I'm on a board of uh theological school right now, and I'm going, we've we've been dealing with this. We've seen the education decline. You know, maybe we're not seeing a steep decline now, but where we were 10 or 20 years ago, significant decline. Maybe we have excess capacity in our building now. We have, you know, maybe we had student housing we don't need anymore. All of the things you you certainly know about. Where does partnership come in? When do I start thinking about this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, ideally the partnership conversation gets on the table in a very robust way, well before you might need to enter into partnership, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:The the biggest sin, if I can use that term, Matt, in thinking about partnerships, is that institutions wait too long. They wait and they wait and they wait and they get weaker and weaker and smaller, and they have fewer and fewer resources, and they particularly use up the most precious resource that they have, which is time.
SPEAKER_02:Right?
SPEAKER_01:So the more time you have, the greater your ability to understand where you are, the greater the ability to paint a picture and get buy-in for where you want to go, the greater your ability to think about what a strong partnership would look like, what is good look like, and then to go after those partners and go through the transition, because there is a period of transition, even in the best of cases with partnerships. And so, you know, if I had only one thing I was able to urge your listeners to do, it would be don't wait. Have this conversation now. Having the conversation doesn't commit you to making a decision to move towards strategic partnership, but it does set yourself up to be open to the possibilities and the benefits.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. What uh, you know, you've had several conversations. You were down with us in Atlanta for uh the biennial in uh the ATS biennial. Uh, you know, you've talked to many schools, many leaders in this. What are you hearing? What are you picking up? People talking about? Are they talking about partnerships? Are they talking other ways forward? What do you glean?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, a couple things. Uh we said earlier, there is much more conversation happening, and that's good. We don't see as many examples yet of moving to action. I think it's still earlier days, and in the next probably year or two, we're going to start to see more sort of cases arise of institutions coming together in new ways. One of my observations is that higher ed always waits to see more examples or kind of watching off to the spot. Right. And then if it works, they go, hey, Matt, Rick, look at that. That worked over there. We we should go try. You need a couple of those to have success, even if it's small, for people to start to get more comfortable and to move past some of the risk elements of the partnership. So the conversations are happening. We have a few cases, we'll see more in the coming years. So I think that that's uh that is important. Here's the second thing that I think people are starting to recognize, and we have a lot of conversations with institutions in this regard, and that is the continuum that exists when you think about strategic partnerships. So often I find that institutions get themselves locked into this idea of just merger. So it's like either I exist and I don't exist. That's a pretty stark kind of black and way to think about it. And what we do is try to open them up to see the range in terms of, as we said earlier, how you come together around administrative services, around academic program support, around facilities sharing, uh, around even joint governance kind of structures. There are many ways into that conversation so that institutions can start out small, take a step, and build on that, perhaps towards something bolder ultimately.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you mentioned earlier, and in in the the the variety, you know. So one of the I wouldn't say simpler ways, but certainly one way people partner is in the back shop stuff. Um, and we've seen that in the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative funded by Lily Endowment. Um, there's the Change Initiative, there's uh the the work at Union in New York. Uh they're creating these partnerships on in, say whether it's um facility management, uh custodial, uh, financial, human resources, insurance, uh, any number of things. Some of that, that the one of the intriguing things to me there is you could do that. Some of those things, you don't even need to be in the same zip code, much less the same state.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's really a great place to start, man, in terms of those first small steps. And you know, I'm a big fan in having a win, even if it's small, and then building from there. One, it creates trust, right? It creates energy. Hey, we did that thing. What else might we do together? It's just natural human being kind of stuff, right? So it's a great place to start. If you try to bite off too big a hunk of the apple, I think sometimes it just gets stalled, right? Because it's just too much or it feels too big. So starting small and those administrative backroom functions can really be a great place to enter into the shift.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've seen other schools do things like whether offer just a you know temporary class swap, you know, take it at this class to, you know, very full multi-tiered uh partnerships. What are some of the things you're learning? I mean, I I know um Annie Glandin, our vice president for programs, had mentioned to me, she said, you know, we that we hear quite questions about relational aspects and partnerships come up. So people talk about that as whether an obstacle or or a struggle. What do you hear? What do you see in that?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Uh, you know, it's all your listeners know that if I get to do it my way, you know, that that always feels better. It's always the best way to go, right? It doesn't like partnering with myself and doing it my way. Um, but in a relationship, whether personally or professionally, probably not the way to go. So, you know, Annie's point is well taken that certainly there are elements of institutional fit. You know, there are legal aspects and financial aspects, all of that, which is certainly important. But those relationship pieces can't be ignored. And, you know, I think you have to recognize that um one, you gotta be clear what you're signing up for. So I'm I'm a big believer in clear asks. What are we really about here? It's why setting up small helps. Secondly, what will good look like? Like how will we know this is working? Okay, good. Let's keep an eye on that. Third would be knowing going in that you are entering into relationship and relationships work at the speed of trust. So that you've got to be in in terms of building that trust, but also recognizing that you know you will have bumps in the road, and that you're gonna have to accept that as long as things get done well, they may not exactly get done the way you would do it. That's part of the relationship. And so being willing to write out those bumps, create mechanisms so that you can be transparent and keep building basically that foundation of trust.
SPEAKER_00:What um tell me a little bit about if if I'm a board member and I'm listening to this, what what do you want me to know? Because as you know, there's there's something that happened, there's a difference with boards and executives, the executives are in the middle of it trying to find ways. Board members sometimes show up and say, We should try this or not try this or or whatever. What do you want a board to hear in this? Or what do you want them to experience or think about? Because, as you know, sometimes the board says, Hey, this might be a panacea.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, I think it's always important to check in on roles, right, Matt. And so from a board perspective, um, boards have a responsibility to make sure that one, the right questions are on the table, that there's a clear strategy to move towards the shared future vision that management has laid out, and then to be able to monitor that so that you know you're moving in the right direction. So, first and foremost, I would say for board members listening, is is the conversation on strategic partnership happening? Because I would say, regardless of the current position of your institution that you're serving, you should be having that conversation. Secondly, and relatedly, what's the opportunity that would be provided? So, not just having the conversation, but to what end? What are we trying to solve for? And then being able to incorporate those findings into the development of your strategic initiatives. From there, it's really up to management, right, to execute on that strategy. But first and foremost, if nobody's coming to you saying, uh, here's our clear vision of what we're going to go become five years from now, we've taken a look, we think we do, don't need a partner. And this is what we think the partnership could look like. You need to raise your hand and say, have we had a conversation around strategic partnerships? And if not, why not? And how can I help with that conversation? I think that that's critical in this day and age.
SPEAKER_00:That's those are good points. Those are good points. This has been a uh rich conversation, always is, every time we chat, Rick, and I'm appreciative of it. But I want to say as we start to wrap up, uh, I'd love to have you reflect on some other things that you may be seeing, particularly in your work in theological higher education, or things that you think we're not thinking of.
SPEAKER_01:Well, as I said, you know, if you believe that what we've been experiencing over the last, you know, certainly three, four, five plus years is not a bump in the road, but a permanent shift in the landscape in terms of not only the number of students we're serving, but what they're looking for in their own education and transformation experience, in the resources they bring to the table, you know, what they can afford, in how our missions get brought forward in new ways. Then I think it means we need to be changing in response to that. And candidly, higher ed and theological schools are not immune, has been very inward-focusing, Matt, right? It's what are we about? What do we want to offer? How do we want to offer it? And so I think there is the need to really start to shift more externally. That I don't mean in a way that responds to fads, but students, the the students coming out to us today are different. They have different needs, they have different desires. We have to make sure if we're going to keep our promise of the transformational nature of education, I think that we have to change. And it means we have to approach then this conversation as a change management project, right? And all the things that go into it and go into successful change. And again, I think that is one of the key components of what leadership today is charged to do.
SPEAKER_00:I think, you know, let me let me add to this a little bit. I mean, what I what I've heard you say today is is a focus on mission, right? Because the way we accomplish mission may be different, but we're still focused on that. Correction.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But on understanding that our clientele or students may be different. And understanding that the field is changed. I mean, when when we talk about Chris Meinzer, for example, at ATS talks about solving for sustainability. Um, you know, doing some forecasting. I mean, you're talking about uh a bit of a long-range plan and and what uh well how you're gonna get there, and and that maybe a partnership isn't a panacea, but you want to partner with folks who are going the same way. You got what else do you want to what else do you want our listeners to take away from this conversation?
SPEAKER_01:I think in a word I would say that is courage. You know, these are times that demand courage, you know, it demands an ability, as I said earlier, to point towards a new way to bring mission forward. That creates anxiety, it creates uncertainty. And so, secondly, an ability to really think carefully about the change that you're asking people to enter into and change towards. Something new combined with confidence that I have absolute certainty that we as an industry can get there. Absolute certainty. And in fact, I think the way we need to do it, there's some basic things, quite frankly. It's the political will, right? It's that sense of commitment to being willing to lean into that and know that it doesn't make you popular, perhaps in that moment. But it is quite frankly, for those of you listening in leadership positions, I think it is what you have trained for your entire career. And now's the time.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Rick, I appreciate that. Let me end on that thought. As to recap, as you mentioned, these are historic times where they are big times. Um, and that takes some different thinking. So I appreciate you uh you helping us think through this.
SPEAKER_01:Good, Matt. Always a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:My guest, my thanks today to my guest, uh Rick Staisloff, the founder and senior partner of the RPK group, will put his link in our podcast page at intrust.org slash podcast. Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.