In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 77: What a president needs to know
The Rev. Nancy Claire Pittman, Ph.D., is retiring as president of Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma, after a long career in both the church and theological education. She reflects on the changes at Phillips and the transformation that has taken place there, including how the school uses the city as a place to learn. She also considers what she wished she knew about shared governance, working with a board, and the role of president.
Hello, and welcome to the Intrast Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone, welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. I'm on the campus of Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the office of the president, the Reverend Dr. Nancy Clare Pittman. She was named president in 2019 and came to the role with a wealth of experience as a minister, pastor, missionary, professor, and administrator. She served several years in the local church, and then seven years teaching in Taiwan. She came to Phillips as an adjunct professor and then was named in 2005 as Assistant Professor of the Practice of Ministry and Director of the Doctor Ministry Program. She was named Vice President of Academic Affairs and Dean in 2013, and then in 2018 interim president, and then president the next year. Earlier this year, she announced her retirement at the end of September. So we're recording this in the first full week of September. So, Nancy, first, thanks for having me on campus.
SPEAKER_05:We're delighted to be able to host you.
SPEAKER_00:This has been a great tour. What you all can't see on the podcast is uh Phillips has undergone a wonderful renovation. It's a lovely space. Uh they're doing some incredible things. There's a building program going on now to create like a hotel for uh residential uh students to come in and kind of a hybrid cohort model. There's some really thoughtful things you're doing here, Nancy. And I want to I want to start this way because I think one of the things we talked about as you gave me the tour was you all are very contextual. You're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and you're using that to help educate students. I love this. I mean, I love this because you it's not you're not divorced from the place. You're part of the place. Tell me a little bit about this and how you see Tulsa as part of the classroom.
SPEAKER_05:Well, most of our students, I should say, do not live in this area. They live at least 100 miles or further outside of Tulsa. So we're using Tulsa as a contextual case study for students to begin to reflect not only on how diverse cultures and diverse expressions of faith and diverse religious experiences come together here, but in a way that they can then begin to think through how that's happening in their context and what the histories and the beliefs that shape their own communities, how they can be used to help them do the work they've been called to do.
SPEAKER_00:Well, what I appreciate is we talked and toured the seminary, you talked about it was it was it was just student orientation. We're in the first week right after Labor Day. Um and part of your orientation is really to get people in the context. They go down to what was known as the Black Wall Street, which was ended in a terrible, horrific massacre about 100 years ago. Um in you've all as part of your mission, you're showing people the reality, the history, and everything else.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Actually, that that was the brainchild of our former dean, Dr. Lee H. Butler Jr., who began to help students see the uniqueness of this place. Not uniqueness like well, that's a uniqueness too. We're right near an airbase.
SPEAKER_00:An airplane just went overhead, if you if you caught that sound.
SPEAKER_05:So the uniqueness of the uniqueness of the place, which is in fact the site of the largest race massacre in the United States history. Uh an entire, very successful, thriving black community was destroyed in the space of 24 hours. Uh people were buried in mass graves, churches and uh places of business and homes for miles were burned to the ground. So, and then white Tulsa began to pretend like that didn't happen. So when my daughter was going to high school just 20 years ago, it was not mentioned. Now in Tulsa we talk about this, and we have a thriving community of persons who are interested not just in civil reconciliation, but in rebuilding, reimagining what it means now to be a community that includes African Americans, that includes persons of European descent, and on top of that, indigenous peoples, because this was once Indian territory. And Tulsa was founded by the Creek Nation. And uh just to the north of us is the Osage Nation, and just to the east and south of us is Cherokee Country. So there's a lot of mix of cultures and peoples and experiences here in Tulsa that we want our students to experience so that they can begin to understand the richness of their own cultures, even as they reflect constantly upon what on this common experience of Tulsa.
unknown:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Well, as we were driving around Tulsa earlier and chatting about this, it made the we we talked a little bit about the culture becoming the laboratory, the city becoming part of the laboratory, or or that may not be quite an appropriate analogy, but certainly part of the textbook.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly, exactly. So that then, because our students don't have the kinds of residential, common experiences that I had in the 80s when I went to seminary, so we have to find ways to build in something that they can share and then bring their own set of lenses as well as the things they're learning in the classroom as they too begin to be a part of uh reimagining the kin reimagining the kingdom of God. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, you you came to Phillips, you know, your background, you were you were raised in Texas, uh you became a minister, you've worked in the local church, you've you've worked in a variety of Christian education and and social justice uh uh places. You've been to seminary, you earned a PhD, you've taught in Taiwan in in a very interesting time as as Taiwan was coming out from under very authoritarian control. I mean, so you came here with a very rich background. Tell me how that helped, I think helped you frame the work here.
SPEAKER_05:My husband and I went to Taiwan in 1994, um just when um the party in control of Taiwan, the Guomindong, the KMT, we say in English, was uh lessening its tight grip upon the country, and uh and the president who wasn't elected by anyone but the KMT was beginning to uh allow more freedom of expression, to have opposition parties begin to be established and developed to allow some carefully controlled protesting and some sort of Taiwanese independence marches taking place. And what we found was that within the faculty that with which we worked at Tainan Theological College and Seminary were persons who had either fled Taiwan during these authoritarian years and come to the States or to Great Britain or Canada so that they could study and continue to work, and then were not subject to that kind of repression. And there were persons who were very involved in the kind of protest work that was going on in Taiwan at the time and spent time in prison. And then there were those who made the best they could of the situation and did not participate in protests. So there was an incredible kind of tension going on in that faculty as they began to deal with their context. And now uh as you know, in 1996, Taiwan held the first free presidential election in Taiwan and in in a Chinese-speaking place. Um they began to experience a far more open society. And to watch and be a part of helping both our students and our faculty colleagues and pastors in the Taiwanese Presbyterian Church navigate this new reality was humbling. Uh they were such great partners in helping us understand all these dynamics, and they helped us begin to see the complexities of human community in ways that I growing up and thinking everybody in Texas was just like me, which is not the case, uh, needed desperately to learn. And I'm grateful for that experience. And that's helped me learn how to appreciate what on the surface may look like a homogenous society, but in no way is.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think, you know, as we've talked, one of the things that Phillips, you it's it's like you've led this into a new, what would you say, direction or a new era. Not that the old era was bad, just it's as as organizations grow. I mean, you came as an adjunct professor, then you were named an assistant professor and director of the doctor ministry program. So you served as a director, then you ended up as vice president for academics and before being named president. Um tell me a little bit about the Phillips you found and then what you saw the need to grow into. And again, I don't mean that as any kind of negative to the past. We all have roles and times and seasons.
SPEAKER_05:So Well, uh uh Dan Lshire used to say uh that Phillips Theological Seminary was the only seminary he knew that actually survived its host university. And Phillips University closed its doors as as as a a degree-granting institution in 1996. Phillips Seminary had already been separated from the university, so it survived and had already begun the work of moving to Tulsa. But we were doing that on a shoestring. And Phillips University had to close for financial reasons, which meant that we too, uh, as a successor, didn't have a whole lot of financial resources either. So in those years, we also no longer had a building. So in those years, our faculty was traveling, teaching all of Springfield, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, uh, and of course here in Tulsa, and and trying every way they could to continue what is a fine tradition of really great theological education, but with very little resources. Uh and the president at that time continued to focus and build a donor base that became a group of people so incredibly dedicated to us that we are just resting on their on their work and their care. And uh one donor in particular was particularly generous with us and put us into a fairly good financial situation through his generosity, not only of financial resources, but also of connecting us with people in Tulsa and introducing us and helping us tell our story to Tulsa. At that time, um Roberts had its seminary, but they didn't have a seminary with the Christian church or a more mainline progressive seminary. What became my role was helping this larger Phillips community understand that we no longer have to live in scarcity. And that in fact, through the generosity of others, not my not, in fact, most of us who are still associated with the school, we are in a unique place of being able to imagine our new future and to think carefully and strategically about how we can do the work God has given us to do in this particular century. So we have moved from small organization that wondered if we were going to keep our doors open in five years, to now an organization that is really stable, not only financially, but in terms of the employee culture, in terms of the board of trustees, in terms of our alumni base. Uh and so the possibilities are really open. And that was my work to help people understand that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there's a there's an organization now. I mean, you've you've built systems, you've built uh people in offices, you know, meaning not just a physical office, but a a place. You've created culture and policies, not to knock any predecessor, because uh you when you're trying to stay open, policies aren't always the biggest concern. Right. Right. Um but one of the things I appreciate, when and I'll see if I can post this online. I'm not gonna promise it's an iPhone photo, but in your boardroom, you know, donor donate a mural. And they've painted this mural of the history of Phillips, right? And there there are people in there, there who there's old former buildings. Um you can tell the story, which I love. I just love the fact that you can sit there, you can look at it. You know, you told me the story of Phillips in five minutes or less, very engaging, wonderful way. But what I appreciate at the end of it, there's kind of the the vision of the earth, and it's it's like the future is out there. There's a future for this, for Phillips.
SPEAKER_05:There is, and it's an unformed future. Which is how it ought to be. Because I think that one of the things that um retiring presidents owe their institutions is the opportunity to shape the future now based on the traditions and the work that has been done in the past. But it's time for me to let that go and let the next people shape that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you've you've been a transformative president in a number of ways, because you, as you say, you've moved out of scarcity. You've moved into thinking about the future longer than a week or two, right? Um but part of this is uh your picture is on that wall. You they've painted your picture as the first female president. There's a huge weight in being the first of anything, but particularly even in a mainline progressive institution, the first female president. Talk to me a little bit about the weight of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's an that's an interesting thing. Because you're right. There is weight. And there are all kinds of presuppositions and assumptions that others make and that I make about what this role needs to be now that a woman is in this role. It it's complexified by the fact that I was really colleagues with most of the people who were here, both as dean and then as I came into the presidency. Now we've had a turnover in faculty in particular because of retirements, uh primarily because of retirements. Um and so the new faculty, they didn't know me as a fellow faculty person, nor did they know me as just colleague down the hall that enjoyed doing the kinds of things that faculty do, talking about their work, talking about classes, talking about what's going on in the larger society. Uh, and now that I'm down at what we call the other end of the building, uh the younger faculty in particular are more careful around me. When you're close friends with persons and you move through these different roles, you discover that you have to do and be different things. And I suspect that I and my colleagues thought we were always going to be relating to each other in the same way we did as colleagues. And we all carry these biases and these gender stereotypes and these understandings of what we can say in front of this person who's female and what we might say in front of that person who's male, just as we do with this person who is black and that person who's white. All of that plays into that work and it is weighty. And but we are changing. The whole society is changing, and my prayer is that what feels onerous to me will not feel so onerous to the next person because we'll be even more aware of how we're relating and putting on our own stuff onto others.
SPEAKER_00:Well, in the the nearly 20 years that you've been here, right? So religion has changed tremendously. Um I suppose this this question I'm gonna ask you might have been you might have viewed it differently then than you would now, but what do you wish you knew when you came into the president's office? Because again, you know, you I I can look at your CV and I say, well, you know, Nancy was incredibly well prepared. I mean, faculty, missionary, pastor, uh professor, uh you know, vice president of academics, director, you've done all that. But it's different when you get into the chair here.
SPEAKER_05:I think I wished I had known that once you step into a position like that, people will perceive you differently. They are right to perceive you. That's not a bad thing. And that means then that I have to learn to negotiate and both be that person I'm being perceived as, which is to remind myself that a presidency does have a certain kind of power and a certain kind of authority that nobody else in the institution has. And I wished I had learned how to negotiate that more. There's always the wish that I'm a New Testament scholar by training, I my heart is in local congregational ministry in many ways. I don't really care about the stock market. Don't really know how to read and forecast uh financial trends, but also have come to learn that the existence of this seminary does depend on attending to things that I once considered boring at best and and not germane to my work at all. Uh so I I wished I'd known more about how to do that. I wished I had understood governance better. Coming out of a faculty, I had a faculty's perception of governance, which is not a bad thing. And it was fairly unformed because we didn't talk about it very much. Uh in those years, as you're right, we were surviving. We didn't have time to worry about uh anything other than are we going to have enough resources to teach our classes this year, et cetera, et cetera. So I wished I had spent a lot more time thinking about what the meanings of shared governance, thinking about how I understood it, and being clearer with myself and others about how I understood it. And that I think that yeah, I wished I'd known that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, it's not like shared governance is something they teach in seminary. You may experience it. We don't often teach it. Now, certainly at the Intrust Center we do, and we have cohorts in all of that. Talk to me a little bit about what shared governance has looked like to you and what is it meant. Because, you know, that's one of the things that often comes up as a difficulty either in an understanding or executing.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Well, first of all, I think it's really important for us to define who is doing what and who is in charge of deciding what's going on in that what. I think that because Phillips was such a family organization, uh, we are a part of a larger denomination, the Christian Church Disciples, that think of itself as this family organization, uh, with all of the function and dysfunction of families, as we as we move from everybody gets to say at the dinner table what we're gonna do to a more to a larger segregation of duties.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_05:Then we've got to be very careful about how we define that with each other, very careful to listen to each other in terms of their understandings, but also to learn we are not going to agree all the time. And someone is going to make the decision. So the work of the faculty as the pedagogues, as the persons who have, in fact, not only spent years studying their fields and studying in their fields and producing scholarship in their fields, they've also learned how to teach. And they're pretty dad dumb good at it. They also understand how curriculum works. They also understand certain kinds of pressures that students live in and how one gets their attention even in the midst of their lives. So having said all that, then we ought to let them do that. They know how to do that so well. But that also means that the board, you know, a board that's full of diversely skilled persons with diverse experiences and culture, they know how to do certain things that are making sure we're uh we are accountable to the laws of the state and the country, that our accrediting agencies are getting the right materials they need to continue to be accrediting to be our accreditors. Um they have certain responsibilities for the endurability, the sustainability, the vision of the seminary.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:So that doesn't mean the faculty can't talk to the board about what they think would be a great addition to the curriculum or how they might shape it, nor does it mean the board should not talk to the faculty about vision and about who ought to be doing the um the work, the the building of the scaffold. That's what administration does, is build the scaffold to help people do the work they were called to do. So somehow we've got to be say, here's what you do, here's what you do, here's what you do, here's where we can share, but in the end, here's who decides this, that, or the other. I don't does that make any sense to me.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So we'd we talked earlier about, and you mentioned that this was like a family or a family church, right, when you got here. And of course, you're you're like a family in crisis, and you're trying to keep the doors open, and you're dealing with this difficult history with finances and lack of resources, and now you've got some donors. You're able to step out of a scarcity mindset. Um, I mean, today, the the Phillips of today is far different. I mean, you're you're building, you've re you've you've renovated uh this campus, you're building next door. Um, there's this really bright future. But in that, you know, I think you mentioned going from like a family church to a program church. All of a sudden now there are professionals around the table. I mean, I think when they teach that in ecclesiology, it's there's now professionals, you're thinking about programs, you're talking about sustainability, you're building disciples, et cetera, et cetera. In in terms of um, you know, moving the seminary from family to program. You know, it's as you mentioned shared governance. I'm wondering, did you spend time teaching shared governance? Or were there there had to have been, were there intentional conversations, or was it kind of you're you're figuring this out as you all go along?
SPEAKER_05:We f I wished we had spent more time. I wished I had spent more time understanding that. And you're right, we were trying to just figure out how we were going to survive. But as we began to grow as an organization and as a school, we only hired our first HR person seven years ago. Now, this is a 125-year-old institution. Before that, a bunch of us ministers did HR. And not always with a full appreciation of what the HR professional brings to help Trevor Burrus Of legal standards and things like that. Trevor Burrus, Jr. We were always have always considered ourselves to be a progressive, justice-oriented school. And yet we weren't sure how to break open our staff, our faculty, our student body to be more welcoming to diversities of persons. So when I started, there was a faculty and administration that were teaching as well. Oh, about 18, 19, two black persons. One person who was Korean American. Now fully 40 percent of our faculty are persons of color. Our student body about the same. Our staff has grown. But that has meant that we've needed the HR professionals and the persons who work in diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging work. And we've needed to attend to that work. And that does require choices not to decide things in one another's offices.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_05:And not to decide not to tell someone this, that, or the other, or to tell someone this, that, or the other. So that now there are processes and procedures that make that hopefully in the long run a more just organization. Not that anybody didn't want it to be just. It just how you have to set it up.
SPEAKER_00:Well, again, there's in the lifespan of an organization, there's sometimes seasons, but time and space in which people can think and do the things that they set out to do. That's not to that's not to uh pass over what may have been or anything like that. I I'm curious, you know, one of the uh the role of president is multi, multifaceted. It's kind of like pastor. I set out recently, read something about somebody explaining all of what a pastor does, and you say that's that's impossible. Presidents have a similar thing. One of those things that is on the president's plate, of course, is governance, as you mentioned. Um I mean, I hear you saying you w you wish you would have spent more time that early. Um you have to build a board, you have to have a relationship with a board. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions in this vein. First, what it what is it you're coaching, or what is it you have coached, or trained the board to do for the next president? Because I I m my belief is, you know, one of the ways we lead is out of our own experience and how we may have been treated not intentionally bad or anything else, but we say maybe with this could be better. So what do you, as you as you're getting set to leave, how do you want the board to walk with, help train the next president?
SPEAKER_05:Well, the f the first thing I would say is I hope the board, the individual trustees, are honest with the president. I have been fortunate enough to work with members of the board who are very supportive and at just the right moment will say the right word of appreciation and care. I love that. But I have also come to deeply appreciate the board members who say, you know, you could have done that better, and here's how. And that has also been a place where I could really grow and learn with the board about how we might do things better. So I hope that we continue to have a variety of persons who can say, we really care about you and you're doing fine, and really you can do that. You can get that done. And here are some suggestions for how you can get that done. I didn't know anything about strategic planning. I think there are board members that probably tell me I still don't. Nonetheless. Nonetheless, they were so helpful. And no, we can do this. Here's how you do it. Here's how you think about it.
unknown:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's that's an interesting point because there's one thing I I don't know we talk enough about as support is coaching. Because it's not like you're bad, you're there's no judgment in that. It's like let's do this together, let's do it better, let's get you the help you need, let's all work together because we're all going on the same mission. I mean, that speaks to a really positive atmosphere.
SPEAKER_05:And the other thing, too, uh Matt, as well, is I have a board I trust. When we leave executive session, and when they leave executive session, it is not the content of that session is not discussed. It never comes back to me. Sometimes things that are in open meeting might come back, and there's some concerns with the board about some of that sharing. But nonetheless, these people keep all our conversations confidential. Not confidential in the sense of, oh yes, poor dear, you just really suffered immensely. But again, with the coaching, with the and and Nancy, you might think about reading this, or you might think about reapproaching this issue in a different way. Uh, but they don't go out and say, well, we told her to do that, and then she didn't do it. That's that's never happened to me.
SPEAKER_00:So that that again sounds like a piece of shared governance in a way, of the board understands its role. And and you and I have had this conversation about one of the difficulties in in leadership roles is you can't you have to be very careful about who gets told what. And you mentioned it here, you've got to bring more people in than you might in a family operation. So so they're growing, so they have a share of what's going on. Um, but you also can't just tell things to people. And and if your board knows that, if you know that, it sets a tone. So I mean, what I hear you saying is trust, uh, have folks who will tell you the truth in love, I think is the way we talk about it in the Bible. Um other advice you would give to this board for how they can help a new president on board?
SPEAKER_05:Aaron Ross Powell Well, I do think touch in regul touch regularly, see what's going on. Uh especially the committee chairs and the leaders of the board's work should not presume that a new president really knows what's going on. Uh especially when uh presidencies of theological education are there are presidents are being drawn from a variety of fields now, uh not always theologically educated in the way that I was. Sure. Maybe have an MDiv, may not have a PhD. So we need a board that will that will check in and say, how's it going? We need a board that will be very intentional, I think, about reaching out to that person and um scheduling Zoom calls if they're at a distance or taking them to lunch or or really um listening as well as helping them understand, well, here's kind of how that came into place, as near as I understand it. And it doesn't have to be that way forever.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_05:That worked then, it doesn't have to work now. It may not be working now. So that's I hope we have a board that really really walks with this person. Actually, we do have a board that will really walk with this person.
SPEAKER_00:And how much time would you say you spent working with the board? How much of that was what what kind of percentage was that of the job?
SPEAKER_05:For me, I'm still not sh convinced I did enough. But then I probably would tell you that about every single area. Um I think at least 25, 30 percent.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:I think if the board is engaged and has within it the strategies to have effective, honest, data-driven conversations that an institution can thrive.
SPEAKER_00:The um there is a tradition in American politics in which an outgoing president has been writing a letter to the next president. If you were to do that, here's a little thought exercise. If you were to do that, what kinds of things would you put in it?
SPEAKER_05:This is a remarkable school. It's remarkable in its survivability. It's remarkable in its long commitments to the common good, and its long commitments to the formation of communities of faith who follow Jesus. For us, it's the Christian Church disciples. I I I will say something about that. I will say something about um recognizing that your your presidents and other institutions are your allies, not not your competitors, that much of what you are experiencing they will experience. And if we are honest with each other, and I have been fortunate enough to be surrounded by very transparent colleagues, we can help each other. And and they are a fine resource. And um I I guess I'd finally say, and you and we are called to hold fast to the values that we most that we most honor, and sometimes that's gonna make people unhappy. And people are going to misunderstand, and you are going to misunderstand them. But if we we do better if we hold on to our values than we do if we're trying to keep everybody happy.
SPEAKER_00:When you talk about values, let's let's talk about that for a second. Do you talk about the institutional values, your personal values, denominational values? What do you mean?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, that's all of the above. But I think in in leadership, Edwin Friedman was right. Know yourself and know what you stand for. Now, hopefully, it's something that the institution in the denomination stands for, too, because then otherwise you've got real problems. Bigger problems than you could ever imagine. That's right. But knowing that these are the non-negotiables for me, and these are the negotiables, um no matter how imperfectly I might live out these values, these are the ones I'm going to keep getting up every morning and living into. And not um trying too hard to keep everybody placated. That's so I'm really talking more about one's own consistency and one's own ability to say, at the end of the day, I lived up to this. For me, there it was about inclusion. Not only including persons of color, but including persons in the queer community. And how am I gonna best hold a space in which we all can do this work together?
SPEAKER_00:You know, as we start to uh uh wrap up, tell me a little bit about I think how would I put this? What I what I hear you saying is, you know, obviously values. Values have to match up with the institution. You have to see where you are in a time and space, right? You weren't in the previous space, you're in this current space, and you're moving toward a goal, you know, aligning with mission and values. I heard you talking about uh a board you trust. How do you talk about shared governance too as as something perhaps you might say would um help create some of those values? Was shared governance a tool for that? Was that a a way you were able to bring in more voices as you lived up to those?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think it is a tool for that. If I might step back a minute.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, please.
SPEAKER_05:One of our major donors, Chester Cadjo, was the founder of Quick Trip. And when I was a professor, I used to have him come to my classes, and he would talk about what business people wish their pastors knew about running a church. He was really good at that. And he talked about you have to find out what it is when his words, you're selling. I'm not saying that we're selling something that's too facile. But so he said he sells not gas, not cokes, convenience. What we offer is theological education. I hope we always offer it in an academically accredited degree program. But the changes in education and in our society and our culture push us to say that cannot be the only way. So I think if we hold clearly to we offer theological education in a progressive key, this is what we offer. Then we look at the tools like shared governance that help us shape that, but we also look at the venues where we can offer it and how it can be offered. Uh and so that analogy of I do convenience, we do theological education. I think will help us move to whatever's coming in terms of our churches, in terms of uh higher ed, in terms of theological education.
SPEAKER_00:You've been in transition on a couple of sides. You've been an interim, you've you've been through the transition as a new president where you find all the things you didn't know, right, which you always do. Um Phillips is going through, they'll they'll bring in an interim in October, um, and then they'll go through another transition. Talk a little bit in general, maybe not just to this board, but what you would say to any other theological school going through transition, what that may mean to care for an outgoing president, what it may mean to care for an interim, what it may mean to care for for um an incoming president.
SPEAKER_05:I s I go back to what I said earlier. It has to do with this partnership issue. I never felt like the board were not my partners. I never felt like I was all alone. I mean, yeah, I'd get irritated with faculty, with board members, with fellow staff people. But I always knew that the board was connected to what I was doing. And as I said, they either signed on or they said, well, we really are connected to what you're doing, but you might try to do it this way. I hope that that's the the partnership I have felt even now as I'm going out. Um the the I have a good relationship with the interim who's coming in. But the board is already working with him too, and it's really remarkable, and we've set up a number of meetings together so that he knows what he's as much as one can know what he's coming into. And I'm confident that he too will be a partners with the board in bringing in the new, the successor and and helping that person find their way. Uh somebody, it was Brian, it was Brian Blunt at at the ATS um meeting this past summers, talked about having a plan for what we're gonna do with the president for 100 days, the first hundred, and then for the first year, and then even a little bit past that. And if the board is clear about here's what we're gonna do with you, with you, not you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Uh then that might also help the president understand, here's what I really need to accomplish, and it shouldn't be too big. If you even know all your staff members by name at the end of the first month, great. But but move forward and have some goals and and let the board be a part of that setting of these goals and walking you through that first year, two years.
SPEAKER_00:Well, again, that goes back to a bit of shared governance. I mean, you just talked about inclusion of the board and the board working with the president. I appreciate that. Any last thoughts, anything, any other things you might tell a board, a president, anything you that you want to reflect on on the field before we close?
SPEAKER_05:I I just have been so honored by the opportunities I have been given here. And am grateful for all of my colleagues, regardless of their particular role. And humbled by the commitments and the care with which our faculty and our staff and our board and our alums and our students approach the work of God in this world. That's all.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Nancy, thank you so much for the time. This has been such a rich conversation.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.