In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 80: Eden Theological and moving to a network model
Eden Theological Seminary President the Rev. Dr. Deborah Krause and Vice President for Institutional Advancement the Rev. Dr. Mary Schaller Blaufuss discuss how the 175-year-old seminary is moving into a new model of education. Using a Pathways for Tomorrow Initiative grant, the seminary has formed a network of other likeminded seminaries to offer classes to students, as well as provide a range of non-degree classes for ministers. They discuss how they do the work and how it's reaching new audiences.
Hello and welcome to the Intra Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. I am grateful to be on the campus of Eden Theological Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri, to talk today with uh the president, the Reverend Dr. Deb Krause, and the Vice President of Advancement, also the Pathways for Tomorrow Project Leader, the Reverend Dr. Mary Schaller Blofus. And I'm grateful to be with you today on campus in the president's office. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for being here. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, grateful to be here. And one of the things, and we've had this conversation, Deb, I think, for a couple of years now about your project. There's a network model piece of it. You're reaching out to other seminaries. You're reaching out to share courses and faculty. You're reaching out to uh colleges and universities, uh, particularly in the UCC tradition. And then you're also reaching out to denominations, uh, particularly your own in the UCC, but others as well, uh, to try to create some pathways for folks in a progressive theological tradition. Um let's start in one of the things I said, I think two years ago, I said I loved about the attitude of this program was you were open to knowing what you didn't know, and you were open to experimenting and walking into some places where I think may have been a little uncomfortable or a little unknown. So talk to me a little bit about the impetus of this project because you you started right in the heat of the pandemic. Um, and then when this opportunity came up, what did you see?
SPEAKER_02:Well, in the pandemic, prior to the pandemic, I was I was interviewing to be the president. Uh, and one of the imagination points that I shared with the committee in that process was that I was really thinking that the seminary was shifting in its uh mode of operating from being a center uh of the church uh to which people would come in different ways, um, to being a member in a network in the ecology of the church. And that that that was that was just an imagination I had, and that that my I imagined my leadership would be about pursuing that, building lots of collaborative relationships and and uh strengthening that network in ways we could, and drawing from that network in ways we could to pursue our mission. And when the pandemic uh happened, uh, and I started as president just in that first full year of the pandemic, um it we moved in this uh institution from really being a kind of unrepentant in our commitment to being a um uh residential campus. We we were teaching in classrooms, uh, we we had some distance elements that we had incorporated, but largely we were still kicking it old school. And uh we thought we were pretty great. And um the pandemic, of course, taught us as it taught everyone, and some were far ahead of the curve on how to be about theological education uh using technology and distance learning. And and so that transformation for us in that first year, as we were learning, as we were shifting, as we were making our classrooms uh capable of being uh classrooms where people from a distance could participate. We were working very hard on all of that. We were working on our teaching, our pedagogy. Um, we uh we were incredibly encouraged by the Pathways RFP that that really laid open a kind of uh uh imagination that mirrored how we were thinking about this network, about being collaborative, and put that on the table. And that just was such a welcome framing of how to think about sustainability and how to think about uh mission uh revitalization and reformation in this time of so many shifts for the church and for theological education. And so that really was the basis on which we began to think about our proposal and how to frame that. We are a school that for a long time has understood ourselves in our mission statement to be called by God to be a school of the church, uh, to strengthen the church, to equip the church. And we do that as a school. We do that by educating leaders. So that uh sense of how what our lane is in that network and that uh environment, that ecosystem, is how we really built the uh network model for theological education. And I'm gonna let Mary talk about those three particular initiatives of it because they um they really are, I think, each of them uh an expression of how we imagine that being in partnership could be a way we would strengthen the church and that by partnership we might be strengthened to uh continue in mission.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Right. That posture of partnership um is not new to Eden because through our contextual education program, we have uh decades of partners in the community that we have been co-teaching with. Um, and uh we have a strong uh contextual education component in the number of hours that are required in the core faculty that are integrating those learnings, in the mentors who are our supervisors. So we have this experience of partnership that uh we are part of a network. And so then in this new setting, how do we operationalize uh those existing partnerships, but also part, other parts of the church ecology with whom we also are uh working in equipping the church? And so uh we look to really some traditional partners, uh institutional partners, but in a new way. Um and so came back to these partners in a new way through this project. So the partners of other seminaries, of colleges and universities, and of the denominations with which we are serving. And so that's how we shaped uh the particular types of partnerships and relationships uh for this purpose of seeing ourselves as part of this network.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I appreciate one of the things I appreciate about this project is is you thought about it and you broke it down other seminaries and colleges or other seminaries. You thought about, you know, there are course offerings of some some of your partners who are offering some of their strengths in terms of their theology. So I I think uh, you know, Deb, you could you had called it something like I mean, there's this wonderful richness tapestry of progressive theology that you've created.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that the school's collaborating together. And I really do think when you look at the the course catalog, if you will, that we've created over the courses we've shared over the past couple of years, it really is a wonderful, vibrant expression of theological education in in the progressive main line. And and that I think should be an encouragement to all the schools that are participating. Like this is this is what we can do together. Sure. And and this is this gives our uh each of our, we are all small theological schools, we're all freestanding. And um this gives us a sense of when we when we pull in together what we can make. And it really it's a it's a great step towards seeing the value uh that we bring and we can bring together.
SPEAKER_00:So you've got, I mean, you've got the seminaries, you've got other colleges and universities, and you've had partnerships. I mean, you've you've mentioned we we've talked before the recording, certainly Washington University and St. Louis, uh, you know, partnerships and with an MBA program. You're doing a lot of things with other schools, but you're looking at um colleges with a faith background to perhaps create some pipelines um and extend the church's role. And then you're looking at denominat the denominations and work with the the UCC, certainly. Now, you you're not strangers to partnerships, but what are the lessons you're learning in partnerships? Because I think, you know, as we talked before the recording, I rarely ever, for the first time ever, I heard somebody say, I had a plan that actually happened the way I wrote it. That's not often where the learning is, right? Or where the reality is. What, Mary, what are you seeing in terms of partnerships? What are you learning about these strategic partnerships?
SPEAKER_01:Right. So I think that uh in the project where we're uh working on capacity, on demand, and access to theological education, um, we are learning that there needs to be a lot of flexibility in the way that people engage that. And so uh these different kinds of relationships with seminaries, with colleges, with our churches is allowing different points of entry into theological education and also a move from theological education is only for someone who's going to preach every Sunday, but to theological education equips the whole person of faith for the whole journey of discipleship. And in that, each of us have leadership roles at different times in different ways. And so uh the learnings that we're we're coming to with that sense of accompanying people in that whole theological journey, providing resources uh for that accompaniment at depth, and where people can engage that in different ways at different times. Um, we're seeing with colleges and universities that undergraduate students who are perhaps in an education program or a social work program or a business program are seeing how a theological education can be a resource for equipping them in that, and how congregations and their faith communities are a platform and a community in which that can take place. So it's it's wrapping the relationship around in a new way. I mean, I think we're learning some of the same things with our denominations and the way that we authorize uh clergy, in that it's not that we uh are called to ministry and then we train to be in ministry, and then we go do ministry, and then we're out by ourselves, but especially in this era of complexity, of globalization, uh, that an accompaniment throughout our journey of faith and leadership is really important. And it's consistent with the United Church of Christ marks on ministry, which is a competency-based assessment uh for that kind of authorization where none of us are uh meeting all of those marks of ministry. If we've been in ministry for two years or 60 years, it's it's always a journey. And so for the school uh to be part of that journey in a very proactive way is some of where we're learning and some of where we're going.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I should mention there's the your project has everything from lifelong learning, non-degree education for ministers to again to graduate level theological education to working with undergrads. I mean, there's a number of opportunities, as well as, as you mentioned, working with people who may not be getting a theological degree. But trying to do that. Um from a you know, an organizational uh perspective. I mean, Deb, I think there's there's things you think, hey, we're gonna have partners along the way, or or these might be this, or, or that might be that. And and I'm often struck at it seems that it takes more time to develop those relationships and partnerships than we often think. And sometimes there there is a sense of whether competition or stress or just a lack of time in building those relationships. What are you seeing in trying to do this? Because one of the ambitious parts of this is it's like like everybody else's, you're doing everything at all the same time and trying to bring people on board in some ways they've never been asked to do. What do you what are you seeing? What are you learning out of those partnerships?
SPEAKER_02:Well, there is a I don't know who it's attributed to, but you know, that change happens at the speed of uh trust. That uh is truly something I think we've we are learning, and we're learning uh in particular ways in each of these different initiatives in the relationships. Um and building trust takes time. I think the the model of theological education is what ultimately a thousand years old.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And then the sort of professionalized graduate theological education is coming up on a hundred years old or start, you know, moving into that space. So we are pretty formed as schools in how we think of this and how we do it. And so breaking down some of those habits and patterns and and an institutional sort of defensiveness or protectiveness that I think happens in a climate of scarcity, where we're all competing for the same students, really, um, that uh in a in a in a context of denominational decline uh in in the Protestant mainline. So these are sort of the contexts in which you can understand why people would be a little guarded and not uh moving into uh uh the posture of trust real quickly. So that takes time. And so just finding partners who are open to try and uh take those initial steps. We've we've done some beta work in the theological schools um space with United Theological Seminary in the Twin Cities. They were an early open partner when we when we put feelers out to different schools. They were, yeah, let's try that. So, okay, we'll we'll do some what we call beta testing of of course sharing and faculty sharing. Um, and and we're learning there, right? Because even even in that openness, there are points of like, well, we don't quite do it that way, or you know, why do you do it that way? And so you have to learn that and move uh and and see if you can trust one another enough to adapt. If you're if you're committed enough to what could be uh in terms of uh some sort of goal of collaboration, you might begin to change. And I think that's really what the practice is creating. Um, I think in other spaces it's listening. Um uh, and Mary can speak to this in terms of the denominational uh relationships, rebuilding those connections between it's a weird thing to think that theological schools and their denominations aren't necessarily connected. Right. But we aren't. Uh over the years, as institutions, we've we've siloed. And so how do we how do we create those places of connection? And and it's been absolutely fascinating to learn how to do that. And we, of course, have made some missteps. Uh, and and you have to regroup and try again.
SPEAKER_00:Mary, you've been in the church. You you're I think you said your father graduated from this school. Yes. Um, you've been a pastor, you've been a missionary. Um and and we've talked before the recording, certainly in different spaces, the kind of separation that seems to have happened between uh church and and academy. And you're now, you know, as again, a minister, a scholar, a missionary trying to close that gap. Talk a little bit about that journey.
SPEAKER_01:So in this era, congregations are fragile. Um, and there is a sense, especially in the church in North America, um, of what is the influence of faith, of congregations in the social public space, um, and rebuilding the relationship between the academy, which is uh all about scholarship, which is about interacting with those who have been thinking and doing through the ages and from a variety of perspectives, with uh congregations that may be wondering how they're gonna pay their pastor. Um, and you know, doing the nuts and bolts of living faith every day uh in that community and bringing those back together so that they can be mutually helpful uh to one another and again not competitors um but influencing one another in very positive ways so that we all flourish. Um but we have in in the kind of fragility of the church, we've done a little bit of a lot of things, but maybe not at the depth that if we did it together, um, that we could accomplish. And part of then the siloing is that individuals who are part of theological education who are being uh called to leadership are often left to navigate uh the gap between uh those institutions on their own. And so part of the hope of this project, and it's it can be elusive, um, but how do we institutionally build bridges so that the individuals who are being called can be supported by communities and they don't have to navigate that space on their own.
SPEAKER_00:What I heard talking with talking to people here at Eden was they talked about the richness and the depth of the rigor of scholarship that's here, and that that can get conveyed at any number of levels. So, you know, you you have somebody who's in a rural place or is bi or tri-vocational, right? And they're trying to get a little more understanding of what pastoral care looks like, or they're I heard a story about somebody who said, Well, I'm a chaplain, but I I need to preach from time to time. How do I do that? So part of this project is there's a place for that person to connect without maybe taking a graduate level class. Are you are you seeing it, Mary, with your work with the churches? Are you seeing some inroads there where people are saying, oh, it's not about me having to go off to the monastery or the hilltop, but I'm getting what I need.
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's uh two parts that I'd respond to that is one is it's it's uh really celebrating the contextual places where we serve and learn. And with the accreditation by distance, with our blended technology, uh with the ways of teaching where people are serving, you do not need to uproot yourself from your context to be able to then interact with people who are also in their contexts. So uh we're we're having that kind of interaction uh with people learning where they are. And the other thing then is the depth at which we're inviting people to enter. So not only enter, but to continue. So um if somebody comes into a degree program and they want to specialize in something that's not part of the course curriculum, but it's part of a ministry cohort, that's available to them. If they become part of a ministry cohort, which is a not a degree or not moving towards a certificate, but it's a community of practice, and they just have been so inspired by this New Testament theme, and they can't wait to go deeper. Um, they're invited, and there's a pathway into becoming part of a degree program. And uh so these are all things that aren't new, uh, but these are uh the hopes to be able to really make these pathways invitational and strong.
SPEAKER_00:Teb this work is is when you look at it, I mean, really there's a transformational element, I think, for a seminary. I mean, this isn't like the one and done kind of grant project. Um I I know you're in the middle of a strategic planning process. Talk a little bit about where the board's at with this, how how they've been involved, and how you see this as maybe molding or whether this work is being centered in the seminary, how you would describe it.
SPEAKER_02:What is really gratifying about it is that even prior to the hearing that we were going to be awarded the phase three grant, we were working with the board in sharing our drafts of our proposals with the board because it was such a great match with the sort of imagination that we were bringing to how we were navigating this shift anyway. And I think that, of course, that was a little bit of a risk, right? Because there was far from any guarantee that we were going to be successful. But what we kept saying was funded or not, this is where we're going. This is what we're doing. We I think we, those of us who were about developing the initiatives, uh there were there were several of us from the faculty and and in the administration uh who were working on that, Mary uh has been integral throughout. But the but that really, that conversation, um, the risk to share that with the board at early stages, I think actually paid off because they've heard about it so much, and I think they've become compelled by the initiatives. And then as we've been able to bring them evidence from the initiatives that that things are moving forward, that we are learning, that we are adapting, and they can see that. I think they're feeling more and more comfortable with how this really is going to be in the center of the school. This is who we are now. We are a network model of theological education. And so, how will that then take expression uh in five years? And so the strategic planning process has enfolded uh into its one of its three initiatives. As you can imagine, a strategic planning process for an institution is broader than just as programmatic life. Um we have to have things about the campus and things like that and resources like that. But uh we also um we so we really focused in in one of the initiatives of the strategic plan is is really uh incorporating uh elements from the network model uh into an imagination of the ongoing um modalities of how we teach and learn, how we deliver our mission, and and with whom and where we do that, with all the constituencies you and Mary have been talking about, from degree education. So we're not gonna stop doing that. But we are adding to that a robust uh set of initiatives that have been born out of conversation with the church about what the church and its leaders need. And uh the ministry cohorts are part of that. Um, our Center for Live Faith and Organizing is part of that, where we're uh engaging with leaders who are committed to social transformation in their communities. And so we have a whole center committed to equipping people with faith-based community organizing skills. Uh, and all of these resources are a way to pursue our mission. Um, really to speak to that deficit, if you will, that that we need we to be fully uh alive in our mission, we need more participants engaged uh in this to impact the life of the church. So if our our mission is um that we're called to strengthen the life of the church by educating leaders, then we want to be as accessible as we can be to as many participants in that at all levels.
SPEAKER_01:So in my academic life, I'm a student of the 20th century ecumenical movement. And that movement started with relationships and it continued with relationships. And um in an aspirational piece, um, to just imagine that we might be part of shaping the ecumenical movement of the 21st century um is really exciting. Um and that the the school in its strategic planning, in its mission statement, in its way of educating people, uh, and in its relationships with other parts of the church, um that if we can just be part of that relationship building um for this century, um it's very gratifying and and I'm very grateful.
SPEAKER_00:Well, this is this is I mean, I'll point something out of that. It's you talk about how things are changing, and and we walked around, Mary and I walked around campus uh last night, and the the classrooms. It's you mentioned you privilege or or center, I think was the term, the the online students. Um and and it's really smartly done at not a lot of cost. The monitors are at an angle where students sitting in a classroom can see it, the camera's in the right space, the microphones are right. It's really well done. Um, but you've talked about this this splendid campus idea of trying to create this network out. What are you finding about this? What are, I mean, are people engaged? What's what's your sense of what you're seeing?
SPEAKER_02:It it's been amazing to for a for a faculty and a school that's been so formed as a residential space where you had to be in a physical classroom to in four years have graduates who never stepped foot on this campus. Um but part of the gratifying thing about that is that while some of those folks have learned while they were with us in places like Texas and Massachusetts and Maine and California, they have um wanted to come here at some point. Uh so we've had we have had many, many students, in fact, almost all of our students have graduated on the physical campus, even if they've pursued their education uh from a distance, because they feel like they belong. And I that's what I'm most excited about, uh the blended classroom and how we're living into that here, and how these ways of reaching out we can trust that uh this isn't simply going to be a correspondence course where people kind of have this transition. Transactional experience of, you know, I attend this, I pay for it, I get it, but that through this, they're joining a community that has commitments to the church, that has commitments to the ecumenical and interfaith movement, that has commitments to social justice and transformation and communities around the world that are about that work. And that through Eden, they belong to all of that. And the sense that we're forming students, even while they're not here. And I and you talk about your field. When I think about my field, I think about Paul adapting the technology of the letter form to communicate with churches and how that work was a leap of faith and it was an adaptation and it was unheard of, and people mocked him for it. We see evidence of that in his letters, and it was very hard for him to get traction because he wasn't doing it the right way. And even the vehicle was suspect, the letter. But uh if he hadn't done that, where would we be? And um that that way of creating access and building that and trusting in the spirit through that to uh to build these bonds and forge these bonds that though we may not ourselves have had been formed in this new way, we can see the values uh carrying over. And we know we've created uh uh communities of these alumni who are still connected uh to one another and to the school. And and that is, I think, a testimony uh to the to the fact that we're making this shift and that God is providing through it. Uh, and that and that um that while we're far to anything we would call the, far from anything we would call the other side, we can see evidence of of being the school we're called to be, even in the transition.
SPEAKER_01:We've started with what is what is our mission, what are our values? And we built the rest of it around that in order to accomplish that. And so when the blended technology, when the letter, when those kinds of modalities shift and change in the complexity of the world, uh, those values of community building, of resilience, of interfaith collegiality, um, it we we can customize ways to get at that. And I think that's what this project is, is it's it's a way of customizing uh those ways of getting at what is that mission. Um and so there will be ways that institutional partnerships will come in and out of that. Uh there will be ways that individuals come in and out of that. Um but when when we start with the the who we are and why we are, uh then we can build the rest of it around it.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Well, it seems that this project has clarified that a bit or or given you either time space to clarify. Would would you agree with that? Would you say that's the case?
SPEAKER_02:What yeah, absolutely. And I think I think evidence to trust it uh through this uh to that we can continue and we can uh uh uh move forward and even vitalize our commitments to uh strengthening the church uh in and do so in ways using these uh distance learning modalities that we are still adapting to. Uh they are bearing fruit. And uh do we have more to learn? Yes. Do we have more to do? Yes. But uh that that I think the the wind in the sails is the evidence that uh we are that this is provision and we are on the way.
SPEAKER_00:As we start to wrap up, let me uh ask you each a separate question. Um let me start Mary with you. As a project director of this, um, in addition to the other jobs you're doing, um, what do you what would what advice would you be to s say to somebody who is getting into this type of I mean, because this has been a transformational project for the seminary. This has been something I think that has, you know, as as Deb just said, you know, it's given some space and time, clarity of who you are and what you are. Um but in terms of, you know, whether whether running the grant, what you're learning, building relationships or partnerships, some of the rich things that we've talked about so far or other things, what what advice or feedback would you give?
SPEAKER_01:Well, one of the things I'm grateful for is that uh being the project director where I coordinate other staff and uh people who are doing particular types of work, um, I get to have uh an ear to what is happening in all the spaces. And in my work with alumni and with potential donors and with others, I get to share that kind of vision. So it doesn't feel like two things. It feels like one integrated piece. Um, and the community just keeps getting wider and wider as those who are uh feeling like they are part of the network model. And so it's it's been a really good convergence.
SPEAKER_00:So let me I mean let me follow on that. Are you finding energy, excitement in the alumni and donor base from this? Is absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. People are uh, you know, they recognize that uh institutions, the church, the seminary, there's some fragility. And to be able to be part of something that's strengthening that, that feels authentic, that there's concreteness and there's flexibility, um, yes, we and and we're in the middle of our uh anniversary years, 175 years, and we've been on the Webster Groves campus for a hundred years. And so to be able to talk with people uh about that kind of legacy and vision uh in terms of we're part of a network. Uh, there's some excitement.
SPEAKER_00:Deb, let me um let me end with you. There's a governance issue here, right? There's a board issue. And I don't mean issue in a bad way, but there's there's the governance of the institution. Talk to me a little bit about the advice you might give to another president or two boards about uh what your experience has been here and how you might move how you might tell them to move forward.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think the the being attentive to what the resources are and what they what the imagination of something like pathways or uh any number of of granting opportunities might afford your school that are it's gonna pull you in a direction, particularly when when this happened, where the tendency may have been we've got to hunker down, we've got to really focus here on uh our assets. And that's what we're gonna focus on. Um and so something akin to what Mary was saying about really let's let's go to the mission and really focus on who we are and why we're here. And we really can't see right now because we're in so many shifts. Um and and rather than uh put the walls up and draw up the gate and you know, feed the alligators, let's let's uh let's try to cut another way because because the resources are out there. And uh I think a a key piece here is enrollment. I think that schools are feeling that in all kinds of ways. And uh thinking about collaboratively, sharing resources, sharing imagination, opening up pathways and and connections. Um, that I think is the where the opportunity to to move forward can really come from. Um so I I would say that in boards, boards are fiduciary, they're going to be conserving, they're going to say go slowly. Uh, and and I think there are good reasons to be about all of that. But at the same time, I think thinking about uh, no, now is the time to really make a move and um and to forge a partnership or forge a relationship or look uh for a new uh uh pathway or or conduit to the church uh that we haven't developed or we let fall to the side. Think about pursuing the mission and uh um let the other things fall away and and move in that direction. And and I think I think you're not gonna go wrong there, because then you're pursuing your mission, which is what you're called to do. And uh we're not called to conserve our assets. I mean, our assets are important and conserving them is important, but that's not what we're called to do.
SPEAKER_00:Is there anything else I haven't asked or any other part of the project you wanted to speak about?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I did want to emphasize the whole uh learning community part of the process uh because we're working on this particular shape of a project and a network model and different uh institutional relationships and individual relationships. Um has allowed us to be part of this larger community of other schools that are also learning. And we're learning together. And and just the act of being able to talk about what we're doing in the presence of others who are also doing things that are different has been extremely helpful. Um, and so the whole the whole process of being able to be part of a larger learning community has really been integral.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm grateful, grateful to be with you on the campus, grateful for your time and grateful for what you're doing. Thanks again for such a rich conversation.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.