In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 83: A misalignment in theological schools – and a way forward
Research by scholars at the Association of Theological Schools suggests a misalignment between how students in theological schools are being trained and what the workforce needs. Dr. Deborah Gin and the Rev. Dr. Jo Ann Deasy of ATS explain the research, the misalignments, and ways that schools can move forward to better prepare students.
Hello and welcome to the Interest Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi everyone, welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. I'm excited today. I've got two people with me. Always a joy to talk to. The Reverend Dr. Joanne DC, the Director of Institutional Initiatives at the Association of Theological Schools. Joanne, welcome to the program. Nice to be here, Matt.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:And Dr. Deborah Jinn, the Director of Research and Faculty Development at ATS. Debbie, great to see you.
SPEAKER_02:Good to be here. Thanks, Matt.
SPEAKER_01:We've got some exciting research you've worked on. And uh I'll put it this way: there's always been this kind of tension between uh, I would say church and state, but church and academy, and about what the academy produces for the church and for the world. And Debbie, I'm gonna start with you. You've you've uh with Joanne, some other folks, you've worked on this research about what you've seen as the gap between what the academy produces and what the the world or the the work world is looking at. Now there's a there's been that conversation, I think, is as long as there has been seminaries and theological schools. Tell me a little bit about the genesis of this project and the research that you were looking at. What led you to that at this time?
SPEAKER_02:So this um so-called alignment or misalignment between jobs and credentials. Um I guess another way to think of it is between the what the workforce needs and the education that they get for that work. That's a very important and it's it's been a live conversation in higher education for many years, decades. Um and so we have been also kind of in the middle of that, uh, but in particular since 2017, which was the first time that we offered this uh alum mapping the workforce survey is what we're we're calling it. And so that was the first time, and then we did it again in 2020 slash 23, and uh excuse me, 2022 slash 23. And um just we're so surprised at what we saw coming up um in terms of what what the workforce says that they need. And so wanted to see, did that still hold this time? And then we're going to be regularizing this survey every five years, uh, just to see how well are we aligning and matching up with what the workforce needs, given that that's at least what we say that we want to focus on as uh educational institutions.
SPEAKER_01:I grew up in journalism, and there was always a thing that I thought was often unfair the older I got, is you wanted somebody to come out of journalism school with like 20 years of experience. You expected them, right, to come out of that. So let's talk a little bit about this because is your your research shows you what you studied was a misalignment between the skills, the curriculum, the competencies of what you were looking for, of what people might have been looking for when they went into the quote unquote real world. So just to talk a little bit about not to get heavy in methodology, what do you you looked at curriculum, you looked at at the competencies. Um, talk a little bit about what the study, Debbie, if you would, talk a little bit about what the study was looking to track in terms of of what students were getting and then what were that they were finding out in the world.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so um it actually started with just the alum study, or we're now calling it the workforce study or uh survey. Um and we just wanted to see what is it that's that the alum, now that they're in the workforce, what is it that they rely on most heavily to do their work? Um we started there and because it it we realized that this is a larger uh question and a question about alignment, we said, well, we need to know the other side. So um the survey side, you know, we we surveyed it ended up being um what almost 3,500 alums from 129 schools. So it was a good good sampling there and fairly representative. But we needed to know what the schools were doing, uh, you know, because that was the two the second side of the equation. And in order to do that, then uh we looked at um what we had access to, so in in a very um broad way. So we went to uh the websites of all the 129 schools and ended up with about three-quarters of them that did um uh post their MDiv curricula online. So we then we just coded all of those courses and said, what kinds of topics do they fit into? And had a list of, oh, maybe about 50 or so uh um topics. So we had that piece of it. So that was kind of like the uh what is it, the what are they offering now? Um that that piece of it. And then we also looked at the uh teaching areas of all the faculty. So that was something that schools provide to ATS on an annual basis. Um and there are oh, something like 40 different um teaching, oh no, excuse me, over 50, 50 uh teaching areas that faculty can be categorized as uh from their schools. Um and then we we took a look at that. We uh so we basically laid this out. That's the uh the the teaching areas is what they have potential or capacity to offer, even if they're not actually offering the course right now. Uh so those two pieces, the MDiv courses and the teaching areas of their faculty, those the that kind of you know uh represented what the school side of the equation. And wow, we saw not great alignment there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, it's a difficult thing. And and Joanne, if you want to jump in here, because you know, again, some of the work you're doing now straddles uh where schools are, where they're heading, uh, some of the work offerings that people are going into. Um I I wonder sometimes if we, and again, as as a former administrator, as you both were in seminaries, you wonder if we're not asking seminaries to do too much um to produce candidates who are spiritually formed, competent, um, you know, able to preach, able to counsel, um, and and come out like they're 80 years old in in terms of experience. Uh, but but talk a little bit about what you were seeing in terms of what we're asking seminaries to do.
SPEAKER_00:My uh doctoral degree is also in a practical field. And so um I think one of the things I've noted is it's what we're asking seminaries to do, but it's also what we're asking pastors to do, which has exponentially grown from being able to just be the wise spiritual leader to being counselor, community developer, um, building manager. Uh, I remember when I was getting ready to go up to preach and somebody came to tell me that the boiler had stopped working and they wanted me to fix it before I stepped up to the pulpit.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So that whole sense of what um, and and in some communities, pastors have always done these things, but the way the academy has approached it is looking at a particular skill set for a spiritual leader, for a well-resourced congregation. And so I think what we've noted is the the changing nature of ministry has forced, has highlighted some misalignments that were probably already there a little bit, but now are incredibly exacerbated by the changing needs uh of churches and for the work that pastors need to do. And then, of course, as Debbie has dived into the faculty side, the way that doctoral programs and others have not changed to meet those needs. So we still have, so now we'll see if I'll get myself into trouble for saying this, but well, we still have faculty that have doctoral degrees as um New Testament or Bible scholars that think they can teach counseling and preaching, not recognizing that those fields in themselves have become so much more complex and there's so much more of a need to be skilled in those areas than there perhaps previously was. And you see that internally at the schools too. Um, the need for faculty to understand what it means to care for the spiritual and mental health of their students, um, taking on roles. Sometimes they should, but sometimes they they're not equipped for. Um Debbie should could speak to some of the gaps in preparation. That's a whole different study that she's done. Um, that's there as well. So, so all of those pieces um to this work. And much of the research that we that we've done and that our schools have done on students previously was really just um self-fulfilling. If you ask a graduate whether the school's degree met its learning outcomes, the answer is yes. And I just overwhelmingly, yeah, right. Like, and I'm so excited because I have my degree. But Debbie, you know, us pushing this towards alums to get a better picture of what it means one in five years down the road. And then Debbie taking it that extra step of how it aligns with curriculum. That's that's uh that's what allows us to really begin to self-assess as an industry whether we're meeting the needs of those that we're serving.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, those are great points, Joanne. I mean, I I think one of the things they didn't give me with my Master of Divinity was a tool belt, which you know, I there are times I've had similar experiences. The plumbing's backed up, great. It's Sunday service, you know, the the plungers wear, right? You know, absolutely. So so Debbie, talk a little bit about the the misalignments that you're seeing, the things that maybe the schools uh are teaching that aren't applicable or that uh you know or aren't wherever those misalignments you saw, what what rose to the top of that list?
SPEAKER_02:So I I think the first thing I need to uh say because it just kind of gives us uh a more reasonable and broader context, is between 2017 and then the one we just did, so five years later, um it was essentially the same top 20 competencies. So, so that kind of it gives us just a little bit of, okay, breathe, let's breathe. We're not completely out of, you know, we're not going right, you know, extreme, you know, that we're talking about right now. But uh, and what we will have to see is in 27 when we offer it again, whether or not the same 20, you know, still uh, you know, are they still the same 20? And if so, then my article will be that that year will be, okay, this is our list. These are the top, these are the top 20 competencies that are are pretty enduring uh in terms of uh theological schools and uh what they should focus on because this is what the religious workforce say that they need, and it's been over 10 years, and we've gone to the same graduating classes each year, and it and it, you know, it's it's the same. That said, what came up in the top 10? So I think things again, it is two two data points, two years does not a trend make, not yet, but if I can foresee, if I could foresee the future, I would say then that it's probably more likely that the top 10 change based upon what it is that the continent or the world is going through at that time. So all of that is a kind of a foregrounding of what I uh will say about the findings. So what surprised us in 2017 was that in the top 10, things like administration, leadership, finance, those all came out as important competencies or competencies that um that the alums need and that they rely on. So that was a surprise to us that all three of those kind of those fit in the their adjacent competencies, right? They're kind of, you know, they're similar. And they all came out in the top 10. So that was a surprise. In this time, 2022, we saw that uh administration leadership still stayed there. Finance was pushed down, but what came out on top the top 10 this year were a lot of so-called uh soft competencies. So um spiritual disciplines, interpersonal competency, intrapersonal competency. Uh, these are things that we weren't expecting um this year, and maybe we should have been, given that it's, you know, we're talking about the middle of the pandemic, um, healthcare jobs, uh, you know, uh alums that are in healthcare that rose uh over the five years. So that all of that together paints a picture of kind of uh a need of uh in in in the time of global health crisis, um, kind of this uh heightened awareness of um mental health um issues, of uh well-being, and some of these pieces that really came to the forefront for a lot of people, whether they are in seminary training or not, just uh and and even in yeah, whether they're in ministry. So a lot of people were talking about this. You saw it a lot in in you know on social media, but also in uh news articles, etc. So that was what was really surprising in terms of what came out this year uh in that in the top 10. Now, against that, we were, you know, again, coming back to this question of alignment, what we saw from the schools, and uh let me say here, first of all, that there was a lot better alignment between what the schools currently offer in their courses and what they have capacity of to offer in their faculty. So between those two, there was a lot greater alignment. It was something like close to 90% of the top issue, the top topics, there was alignment there between those two lists. What came up very much and clearly on top was Bible and theology for both the courses and the the teaching uh the teaching areas. And I wish I could just show you on this podcast the the numbers. I mean, they were just by far much, much higher than all of the rest. Um 98% of the schools, so that's an easy one. 98% of the schools said that they had at least one course in Bible or theology. Um only 43% said that they had at least one course in formation, which is the third highest. Um, you know, when we when we did the um the coding for the for the courses. So and then same with the with the teaching areas, uh, the two top by far were Bible and theology. So, and Bible and theology were in the top 20, but they weren't that high. They weren't in the top 10, at least this time. So there is a bit of misalignment going on here. Um, and again, you'll need to, those who are listening and you want to see the act, the actual findings, you'll need to go and find one of our articles because it's just very clear there how it's almost a the pattern looks more of a crisp, you know, kind of a crisscross, like the kind of an opposite um effect going on.
SPEAKER_01:But when the when the research comes out, when it's published, we'll post that on a link on our website, uh intrust.org slash podcast. Um, and now we're talking just just before publication, but I want to talk a little bit about this thing that, you know, I think many of us have tried to forget with the pandemic in 2020, uh, incubated a lot of things. I mean, I remember being at a school and and scratching my head at a cabinet meeting when I was told that faculty didn't have laptops or there were we had faculty members without internet access at their homes. Right. And yet in two weeks, um, even the the faculty who had not wanted to teach online were teaching online. It incubated a lot of things rather quickly. I'm wondering in in this, as you both evaluate the research, if we saw some of those things on that list shoot up, certain competencies. Do you think how much of an effect was the pandemic in this in terms of what the misalignment may have been?
SPEAKER_02:I'm sure Joanne's got some uh comments here as well, but just really quickly, uh one thing that so it it most folks will not be able to see it because it just missed the top 20. But one of the largest jumps was technology itself, uh, from 31st in 2017 to 21st. Um, not only that, we in fact, even in our coding, we had to uh kind of give more sub-themes to existing codes that were in the top 20 because uh technology was now a part of it. So something like pastoral care and counseling, for example, we didn't have technology on as a as a sub-theme before, but now virtual virtual counseling or um kind of you know, how do you do counseling uh well in an online context? Um, even doing uh worship, how do you do worship in an online context? So all of that technology now became part of kind of these mainstream competencies that didn't have technology technology before.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. I wondered too. I mean, one of the the things, Joanne, did you want to jump in on that?
SPEAKER_00:More to the to the fact that ATS had already been exploring questions related to online learning and formation in an online context. I think um in our educational uh and organizational models project, um the educational models project from a decade ago began exploring these things. And in that sense, we were already asking the right questions. Uh, how do you do formation? How do you form community virtually? Um, how do you do that as a theological school? Uh I think one of the things we learned, of course, was that it was just making intentional things that had been unspoken or unreflected upon in a residential space. And I think having done some of that work as a as an industry around educating, um, we were able to convert rather quickly and uh ready to ask some of those questions when it comes to worship and and church and ministry. Um but it it was accelerating the need, and I think we're a long way from bringing many of these topics, whether it's technology and practical skills or the soft skills, all those misalignments, um were often happening in co-curricular spaces and so we're not structurally centered, we're not structurally supported, we're not um sort of structurally sustainable and strong because they were at the the the whims of the finances of the institution. So I think that's one of the pieces is we're talking about misalignment and misalignment, you can see in the faculty structure that that while we might be doing these things structurally, there's no alignment around them as just as important as other parts of the curriculum.
SPEAKER_02:Matt, if I may, uh kind of feedback on uh what Joanne was saying, just so I'm gonna now say the I might get in trouble. Caveat. Uh so I think that what is what has happened, and it's I I'm not blaming anybody or any particular organization. I think it's just the ecosystem that exists right now that is so hard to break out of because if you try to break out of it in this one area, it has so many um implications for different parts of the ecosystem, right? So let me just let me go down this road for just a second. So the the structure uh that we're talking about is a it's from my perspective, it is largely built on a threefold disciplinary structure that we've had for a hundred years or more. Um, and this is basically biblical studies, the theological studies, uh historical studies, so maybe like church history, and then maybe you might have something that's in the practical field. And and for a long time it was homilitics or preaching. And then now, within I don't know, maybe the last 30, 40 years, we've started to kind of um break it out, you know, in terms of uh practical theology and practical studies. So that disciplinary structure is manifest very clearly in the departmental structures that we have in seminaries, same three, four uh uh departments. Um when you hire, then you know, if you get an opening in one of those departments, who are you gonna look for? You're gonna look to fill that particular department.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um and and then so the cycle continues. And it's very hard to break out of that cycle and that that system, that structure, because it has hiring implications. And if you hire then outside of that structure, what does that mean? You're gonna leave a huge gap there. Um, how do you decide which particular niche you're going to kind of go for? Um, and then of course, that has implications for the PhD programs that currently exist. It has implications for all of these students, PhD students that have paid a ton of money uh to get their degree, they will no longer have a department to go to, or they, you know, they don't have any guarantees of being hired. I mean, even that is already kind of we're penelist, but you're gonna add an uh very critical piece to that that means that, oh, okay, at least this whole generation of PhD graduates are not going to have an easy or sure way, you know, sure funnel, right, to get into it.
SPEAKER_03:Right post.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:So there's just so many cogs of this ecosystem is going to be affected if a school or the entire industry were to try to make a change in this respect. So then what you end up happing, uh what you end up what happens is that you continue to get these outrageous numbers in biblical studies and theology. Please hear me wrong. So those who are who are wanting to um stone me, maybe, um, I am not saying we don't need biblical studies or theology. Obviously, we do. I mean, I'm not even saying that we don't need church history because you know, my own experience going to a church and seeing how uh, you know, the just out of proportion people, you know, in those churches say, oh my goodness, look at this. This is this, this um sign has told us that we, you know, something is happening in in the history of our church. Well, no, if you go back about 100, 200, 400 years, you'll see that some of that happened already before, and we're just going through another cycle of this. So perspective is very much gained from things like church history, etc. But um, I just don't know about the proportions of everything. I think that's what I'm questioning.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good point, Debbie, because I I think, you know, the the three of us visited before I hit record, and and I I told you, I think in my own master's program, which was not a small program, uh I kind of wish I had more. Not kind of, I do, because the demands in ministry are so varied, uh, including things like, you know, whether finan from financial administration to a theological grounding in formation. You know, before we talk a little bit about the future, I want to I want to talk about this one point in this, because it's it's it goes right to the point I think I'm talking about. You mentioned in this, you know, some of your research, you talk a little bit about the the risk of reducing formation to a list of skills to check off. We're saying formation as you know, vocationally equipping. And there's in in the field, and I don't think this cuts against any of the discussion that we have in the field about competency-based theological education. The the question is, as you say, what what are the ratios? How do you do it? Um but let's talk a little bit about this for a second, is is that tension because what people see is checklists versus how we're forming ministers. And the complexity, of course, is we're doing this with faculty appointments that sometimes may last 20 or 30 years. Or as you mentioned earlier, the faculty may not have a competency in a certain way that has changed, like the the way the pandemic surfaced so many other things that we need to address, particularly at a time when schools don't have a lot of resources to add faculty or to add competencies. So let's talk a little bit about that tension of of what you what you add, what you don't add. How do you close these gaps? Um, what would how do you realign? Uh and I know toward the conclusions of some of your research, you you've come up with some ways you think you see schools moving. But initial thoughts, because if I'm a board member or if I'm a leader of a school, I need to confront this in some way. I need to think about this. How should I be thinking about this if I'm a board member?
SPEAKER_00:I think Debbie has some particular things for schools to think about how they're structured. Um, I think for a for a long time I've been uh sort of thinking about and building upon some work that was done decades ago um uh by some sociologists who were looking at the sort of pastoral assumptions that uh theological schools held. Um, I think from the the workforce end, um, I think schools and boards need to be much more discerning about what kinds of churches or what kinds of work workforce areas they're trying to prepare their students for to align the skills that are needed, because what's needed in a small rural church or an urban setting or an immigrant community or a nonprofit or a hospital or uh teaching. I mean, all of those require a different set of skill sets. And so um so figuring out who you're trying to serve and what they need and having to make some decisions. And not be all things to all people on that end, at least in my mind, is one of the places to start. And I work with the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative. And one of the things we saw is the amount of research and listening that schools were doing to their constituents. And I mean, I think that at least in many of our schools, not just those who had pathways grants, but throughout the membership received planning grants where they did research. So we know more about our constituents than we ever have before. But now we're going to have to make some choices about who we're going to be as schools. And I think Debbie has more to say about the other side, the decisions the schools themselves might need to make.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. We we end it so this article that we keep referencing is hopefully going to be uh published. Um but in some way we're going to make it available uh uh next year. This what we what we're hoping that schools will come to is an awareness that I think what we're trying to the the question that we ended up with is the given that the degree program is probably not going to be sufficient for what a person in the religious workforce today is going to need, how then will you as a seminary or as a school of theology, what role are you going to play in the larger um kind of work of preparing clergy or ministers? So um we have three, we have three that we're gonna that we're recommending. Um one is where we we we called it comprehensive. So schools will go bigger. Uh so if you are a highly resourced school, um likely this might be something that you would consider where you bring everything in-house. So you have the degree program, but that's not the only goal. That's just one piece of what you do. You will also then um kind of the the the entire uh what is it, the entire vocational journey of a of a of a minister during their discernment process, when they're studying to become a minister, when they are in ministry, what post graduation, you are going to be a one-stop shop for all segments and all seasons of that particular person's journey. So we're calling comprehensive in the depth that the schools are gonna go bigger. Um we the second version is we're calling it curated. So schools actually will go smaller, they will realize okay, we have this niche and we are so good at it, we're gonna even get better. Um, we're gonna double down, so to speak, on this and become exceptional. At the same time, a second goal will need to be identifying and cultivating the appropriate partners. Because again, um uh ministers need much more than what the schools can offer just in that three to four year period that they are studying at your school. So, what are then uh what ways can the school vet and uh really curate a set of partners that once this the student graduates, that you can maintain contact with the student in some way and say, you need now that we understand you need this piece, go here because we trust them, we know that they do great work. Um, this is where we send all of our students. So that's the second kind. The third kind is is a little bit different. It's in fact, that's how we talk about schools will go different. The first one they go go bigger, the second they'll go smaller, this one they'll go different. So we we're calling this one connective. So um intentionally, these kinds of schools will find connections between disciplines and the courses and to offer something that's more holistic. Um, there's there's more of an uh impulse to integrate uh between different courses and and even maybe student learning outcomes or even um uh maybe even degrees. Um, I think earlier in the article we talk a little bit about how maybe some of the interdisciplinary work might end up forming different different departments in your school. Remember, we're talking about kind of that structure. So if you were to kind of break apart that structure, that threefold uh structure, fourfold structure, maybe instead you find as a school that your mission says, oh, we want to have these four structures, Bible and spirituality, uh, nonprofit and uh theology, uh, church history and leadership. Those are kind of some of the examples that we gave. Those are very different kinds of departments. And I mean, I don't know if you can pause for a moment to imagine what kind of faculty that would um, you know, bring or attract. Um, and then if you've got, I mean, there are you know, infinite number of combinations there. And my guess that if you know enough schools went that route, that we would have a number of schools that each had a very different combination of integrated departments and integrated course offerings, integrated degrees, etc. And then these formers, then the formators, people, the the faculty, would they would themselves have had a PhD program that was very integrated. They would have studied something very different, they would be able to offer something that's uh more integrated, um, and and would look at topics that cut across multiple courses, for example. And I don't know of too many schools, maybe Joanne has a better idea of this um with her work in Pathways. I don't know of too many schools that that are doing that already. I I came from a, you know, my previous shop. I remember we would sit at our assessment day and kind of look at how did we do in terms of integrating, because that was a student learning outcome, but you know, just to be, I've got that cheesy smile on my face right now. It's we I don't, I you know, I can't guarantee there was no way to guarantee how well we even we as faculty had helped the students integrate because we ourselves didn't do a good job of that. And so to then model it for the students, I don't think we did that great of a job.
SPEAKER_01:Joanne.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of the this last integrative piece. And you know, one of the things when I was teaching, because I was in the practical field and got paired with other people to teach all the time, um, we talked about how much more work that was for faculty and how expensive it was to have two fac full-time faculty sitting in a course instead of one. Um, and so again, it plays with the structure and how do you work with that? Um I don't think this is the only solution, but I think that competency-based theological education is trying to get at that by developing these uh sort of teaching teams, which include sort of academic mentors and advisors, but also practical mentors and advisors that work by partnering with workplaces to develop sets of competencies that that are integrative. And so it's it is taking sort of the the knowledge and the information that might come from coursework and then having those extra layers of integrative work on top of it in a much more intentional way. Um it's not the only one, but it's sort of the clearest uh field that that is really doing that. Um, though I do see a lot of schools going back into uh, say, clinical pastoral education as another place where uh that integration is is sort of the deep um personal, personal uh integration with pastoral care and spirituality in a very particular way. Um so uh really interesting to think about how how we move to those new spaces on that last one. Um but you know, comprehensive, we're seeing schools lean into relationships with denominations or regional relationships, just depending on whether their scope is a particular um denomination or or or field or whether it's a regional scope. Um so we're seeing some of that comprehensive and a lot of growth in non-certif, uh non-degree programs with certificates. So either pre-seminary, pre-graduate degrees or um postgraduate degrees, lifelong learning, all of those areas we're seeing a lot of growth as well. Um, that curated space, uh, we're probably, I think schools are doing it. I don't know if we're seeing it as much. We might see it in the centers that are emerging at their schools where they really name a particular area of expertise that they're stronger at. Um, um, but that uh centers are often around the edges of a school and not as integrated as Debbie is arguing for. So that's sort of the question is whether the rise of these centers and non-degree programs will fundamentally change the structure of some schools. Um, and some schools are are trying to do that. We have a couple of schools that are trying to decenter their master's degrees and and restructure um everything from faculty to finances in ways that that decenter these master's degrees in order to create a more holistic or comprehensive approach. Um, so it'll just be, you know, I I think we're we're just starting to really move into the structural changes. Unfortunately, some of it having to do with the the real need given declining enrollment at half of our schools. I think that's about right for our latest um enrollment trends, uh, declining enrollment and the financial struggles of many of our schools. There um we're having to do all of this work um for both missional reasons, but also for um financial sustainability, not just of our schools, but of the entire sort of ecology of of particularly ministry, though it's more than that, but um but the entire financial ecology of of pastors and preparation to serve in churches that can't afford them as much anymore. So uh all of those tensions are there as well.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this is this is really important research, it's important work, and this has been an important discussion because I think for leaders in theological schools, um you know, this is an important time to be creative and to think about the future. I mean sometimes we, you know, we talk about that with nervousness or anxiousness. Uh but the plus side, I think what we've seen in the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative is there's been this impetus to of excitement and freshness. The research that you've done gives a great groundwork for where there may be issues in alignment, I think and in terms of ways as as well to give schools an ability to think, uh, as you just both went through the the three C's, you talked about the potential ways schools may go, either as a comprehensive school to go bigger, curated, to go smaller, connected, to be different. Um, and also, you know, as you mentioned, the need for lifelong learning. If it's nothing we learned from the pandemic, it's that things can change and change fairly quickly. Uh as we wrap up here, any last thoughts of advice you would give to a leader or to a board of a school? Uh Debbie, I'll start with you. Any last thoughts you would say?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so we didn't actually study this. It wasn't part of the research, but it is something that we did add to the article, which is this notion that theological education of all the different uh kind of graduate professional level um programs uh and industries out there, theological education does not have a good way to hold the workforce to ongoing learning, to continue learning. Um, and I'm glad we ended on this kind of lifelong learning piece. Um, and I think Joanne had also mentioned the denominations. Um, so medicine, psychology, social work, even law, I mean, education, there are so many industries that have some way, uh, even if it's not completely centralized, there is some way, either through licensure or something like that, that there is this uh expectation that they will continue to learn. One of the things that I did find in the literature review of the article was this little data piece. The half-life of an of a of a nugget or a kernel of learning is only five years. Five years. So I don't know if we could find a way to continue to come back and and you know, have our students and our graduates learn something every five years, one to five years out. I could give you right now from this research a curriculum of the what you should teach the students the next five years out, and then what needs to happen six to ten years out, etc. Look at this research. You will find a good curriculum and then find the partners to do that with you because a single course in psychology or a single course in finance probably will make you more dangerous than ever. But if you could come up with a full curriculum, um, I don't know if that will help the financial picture of the schools. I don't know if the students and the graduates will be making enough money to come back and learn more in another curriculum or not. But maybe that's the direction that we go in, right? We we find a way in the ecosystem to be able to fund something like that. Um, I don't know, but ultimately educationally, I think that's what we need. We need a way to just keep students and graduates accountable in our industry. I would rather go to a a church where I knew that the that the surgeon or that the the the minister is continuing to keep up with her her or his craft.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great point, Debbie. That's a great point. Joanne, last thoughts?
SPEAKER_00:I think just to say that we, well, I think as theological education is more needed than ever before. Um, so regardless of this call to change or or to try to meet the needs of the workforce, um, we know that the questions that the world is asking, that theological education is equipping people to try to wrestle with and answer. And we have scholars that have dedicated their lives to that. And so um so the value is there, but we cannot be all things to all people, right? We are we are finite institutions, and so I think one of the things we know is the way forward is gaining clarity about mission, um, developing a vital mission, but doing so in partnership with others. And so um collaboration, re-engaging or deepening engagement with those uh communities that we're serving and walking alongside becomes so much uh more important. It's always been important, but even more so now and into the future, I think.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great way to wrap up. Uh grateful to you both, uh Dr. Debbie Jinn at ATS, uh leader of this research. Debbie, thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01:And the Reverend Dr. Joanne DC, uh partner in this research and directing the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative as well, uh, the coordination program. Joanne, always great to have you.
SPEAKER_00:Good to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.