In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 86: Cultivating generosity in givers and theological education
Dr. Rebekah Burch Basinger sees fundraising as a vital ministry that can shape faith and fuel the work of theological education. An expert in fundraising, Basinger revisits her book "Growing Givers' Hearts" on its 25th anniversary and explores the power of generosity, breaking the scarcity mindset and embracing God’s abundance. She shares insights from her research, offering practical wisdom for boards, presidents, and leaders to treat fundraising as an expression of faith. Learn how theological schools can inspire donors, strengthen financial health, and model a spirit of generosity that transforms future church leaders.
Hello and welcome to the Interest Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. With me today, uh, once again, the doctor Dr. Rebecca Birch Basinger, um, who is always a joy to have. Rebecca, I'm going to give you an introduction, but first, welcome back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Matt. It's always such fun to be with you.
SPEAKER_00:For those of you don't know, uh Dr. Basinger has spent her career working in higher education in the church. She's been an administrator, fundraiser, consultant, a coach, particularly with boards in on governance issues, but also in fundraising. And that's what we're going to talk about today. For the past 25 years, she has worked with the Intrust Center for Theological Schools and serves as the project director of the Wise Stewards Initiative, which I highly recommend. It coaches and mentors presidents, board chairs, and boards through a whole process. It's it's a great, wonderful resource. But today we're going to talk a little bit about fundraising, of which uh Rebecca has a special interest and expertise. In 2000, she co-authored the book Growing Givers Hearts with Thomas Chevins, who passed away last year. The book is based on a three-year nationwide study they conducted, and it looks at Christian organizations and identifies some key findings and points how leaders can develop fundraising. Now, Rebecca, I've I've got to say, 25 years this book has been out there. Um, and in the time I've spent in the church and in theological education and in Christian higher education, I've heard a lot of people start to talk about or or have talked about themes and things that come out of this book. Um, you know, from some of your research about, which I'll try to crystallize the book. The idea is that as you grow people to be givers, as you grow them to give them a vision of the movement of God, you grow generosity. And as you grow generosity, you create more wealth in the kingdom in terms of giving. Is that a fair way to summarize the book?
SPEAKER_02:That's a wonderful way to summarize the book, Matt, because you've in essence given what Tom and I said was the definition of ministry, particularly as it pertains to fundraising, because it's really about seeing fundraising as another method of sharing the gospel, the good news with individuals, and through a very specific kind of conversation. And that is the conversation about what is God calling you to do with the resources that have been entrusted to you. Of course, as a fundraiser, I'm there representing a particular organization, in my case, always a faith-based organization. So I am there hoping that their generosity will take them in the and the spirit will move them in the direction of my ministry. But I'm also there really wanting to listen to what is on their own heart, what are their own passions, so that together we can find that way to them finding joy and growing in their own faith by their giving.
SPEAKER_00:And as we've talked off the podcast, there really wasn't much research about this. So tell me a little bit about the impetus of the project and then what you found in the process. What were the things that were, you know, I think the like in a lot of fields, right? You have things that you think you know, and gut feelings and intuitions, which some of us Pentecostals might say is the dudge of the Holy Spirit. But we, you know, we feel that there are certain things out in the field. What did you validate? What did you find? And then what did you find that maybe wasn't there that you thought might be there?
SPEAKER_02:Those are all good questions, Matt, and thank you for asking them. Our research was a part of a Lily Endowment Initiative, which in my mind I remember it being called funding funding of American religion. As I've gone back and tried to find remnants of that initiative, I think it might have actually been called financing American Religion. I'm not exactly sure, but it was an initiative that that endowment came out with in around probably 1985 or so. That coincided in my own life with a scandal across a wide swath of particularly the evangelical um faith-based world, uh nonprofit world, ministry world, although it also hit Philadelphia. In fact, it started in Philadelphia um first with charities there. And that was called the New Era. Um, I think they called themselves a foundation, the New Era Foundation. It turned out to be a massive Ponzi scheme.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was terrible.
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, and when when I first met Tom, he was working on another project about faith-based nonprofits. And we were just puzzling why was it that these organizations were so susceptible to this Ponzi scheme? And we really, as we talked about it and listened to others talk about it, we realized it was that because the organizations really didn't trust their donors to help them meet the needs that they felt they had. And so they were going to get out, in essence, they got out in front of the donors, and they found this ulterior way, alternative way to fund the organizations. So it just happened, and I don't think Lily's initiative had anything to do with New Era because they sort of happened almost at exactly the same time, but it was a happy coincidence for us, and so we be we set out to find organizations that approached fundraising from a donor-heart-centered mindset, that it was really about what does it mean to trust donors, people who care about the ministry that we're representing, so that we don't look for other sources. At the time when we started um asking people about that, we got a lot of sort of blank stares, or people would give us very odd answers about things like taking donors on safaris, and I mean, you know, and we're just kind of like, oh my goodness. And but as we kept talking and talking with people, and everybody who we talked to would say, who else should we talk to? And I believe in the end, it was between 100 and 150 phone calls that we made. Think about that, Matt. That was in that was that was pre-really email days. So we could send, I mean, yeah, you know, it was yeah, pre-internet days, you know, so this was pretty cumbersome. But we finally came up, you know, finally got enough uh knowledge or agreement about what we were talking about that we were able to identify some organizations that enough times were mentioned in our conversations that we began to think, okay, we might be on to something here. So, but even when we first contacted those organizations, it took us a bit to explain exactly what we were talking about. But once they got on board, they were really excited and I think kind of proud that you know that their way of fundraising had been recognized as somewhat different by other organizations that knew of them. So that's where the impetus came from, sort of a scandal, an initiative, lots of phone calls, a research question that we really believed in that was focused on donor hearts and the concept ministry.
SPEAKER_00:But it's an interesting way to frame this because this isn't um, you know, Henry Nowen's wonderful book, The Spirituality of Fundraising, which I've given out to people. And it's it's a very thin, very spiritual book, but you take a research perspective. Um, so first, as you mentioned, 150 phone calls. This is pre a lot of people doing internet and email. Um, but you looked at, you know, first you looked at a biblical framework through a Christian lens, uh, you looked at the history of Christian fundraising, and then you pulled out from that framework, you pull out some essentials in terms of how to do it. Um so let's let's talk a little bit about some of those essentials and what you found. One of the things, you know, we've we you and I have talked a little bit about this, but there's a mindset in Christianity, right? That churches, nonprofits, parachurch organizations, there's a scarcity model. We see competition, we see things. And one of the things I loved was one of your chapters you mentioned uh in the Psalms, yeah, I believe it's in the Psalms where it says the the Lord owns a cattle, the cattle on a thousand hills. One of the best prayers I've ever heard, somebody said, Lord, and I've adopted it, Lord, you own the cattle on a thousand hills, sell some. So talk to me a little bit about the scarcity mindset that we often go into, particularly in theological education, where we're a step or two back from the church in what people see as, you know, it's not relief work, it's not development work, it's not necessarily evangelical evangelism or discipleship, the things the building program that people often often are interested in. So there's a there's almost like an extra level of scarcity that that we have in our mindset. Talk a little bit about what you see in it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that was um I don't you know 25 years ago is a long time and my mind is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall that we really framed or used the word scarcity at all. But as we began talking with the the um ministries that we identified to really dig into an interview, it kept coming up over and over again that their approach to fundraising or generating funds, because not all of them actually even called it fundraising, grew out of wanting to do something that they thought they couldn't. But as they began to talk with people, they really came to understand that they had most of what they needed present within their constituency. They just needed to help people release it. So it's kind of like the cattle on the thousand hills, you know, just sell some of it. But in this case, it was release it for the for this effort. And all of a sudden, they were just kind of overwhelmed by the abundance that was at their ready that had actually been there all along. They just hadn't recognized it because they had been thinking about the way they were generating funds in a very sort of traditional fundraising kind of way. And so, as we listened and listened to that, that's when we came to the sense that really foundational to treating fundraising as ministry was that recognition of abundance and to have a to approach the work with an abundance mindset, but then also really defend uh uh um defining um abundance in a way that wasn't just like, well, anything we wish for, we can have because ours is an abundant God and you know, we, you know, sort of like the genie in the lamp kind of approach, but but more saying, no, we will have enough. And I love that quote that we have from the wonderful holiness scholar about uh or writer about enough isn't, you know, God is enough, and in God we have enough. And when we grab hold of that sense of enough, I think enough and abundance go together very beautifully. We mistake what abundance means when we think it means anything I want, but if I recognize that abundance really means I have enough. And you know, there are stories throughout scripture of that, and I think particularly of the manna in the wilderness, um, they had enough for the day. But when they tried to store up more, they got in trouble. When they let scarcity mindset take over, and oh, you know, I'm gonna grab more and I'm gonna hide it away so that I have more, then scarcity took over. So that was we real we saw that then as our foundational principle that if an organization can't see God's abundance in what they have around them, within their constituency, within their own skill sets, all of that, they're not going to be able to approach fundraising as ministry.
SPEAKER_00:There are two thoughts there. One is fundraising is ministry. Often fundraising, I think, is seen as an ancillary or um, you know, something that is a grind that you have to do. It's not seen as ministry.
SPEAKER_02:That's true. That's true, and that makes me very sad. But I see it all the time. I don't know how many times, it particularly in my work with seminary boards. Somebody has said to me, I look forward to the day when we don't ever have to ask for money again. And I said, Oh no, you don't want to look forward to that day. That would be a very sad day because you would have cut off a very valuable part of the school's ministry. And then it's you know, like, what are you talking about? And then we do, we can have a good talk about that. So it is, it is an aspect of our ministry. Whatever the other, you know, sort of mission statement ministry is we need to understand that anytime we have a conversation with another person about what God is calling them to do with their money, we are having a deeply intimate and spiritual conversation. And in that conversation, we are calling them to move closer to God. And that is an amazing ministry.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, you you make this argument. Certainly, I know now and others have made this argument that that is it's an invitation. Asking for money is an invitation for people to join the work. Um, and and that's I think an important point because for a lot of us in theological education, we come up in ministry or theology. I don't come up in fundraising. I mean, no, it's and you and I have had the conversation. Uh, for you listeners who, if you've not heard the episode on dirty money, we'll link it. It's a a wonderful conversation about you know ethics and fundraising and and that. Uh, but I still quote that episode by the way when I talk to people about fundraising. Uh but but the the idea that we're inviting people in to ministry, it's not just a dirty check passing thing, it's it's people are actually engaging in the work. Um that's of vital importance, I think. But but the all the other side of that is because we we've got a God's abundance is out there, I think, is what is your argument. Uh we have to ask for it. Um I mean, you have a couple quotes in the book. You mentioned the holiness writer who talks about God being enough. Um, and then you quote in part of your research a seminary fundraiser who admitted that they were afraid that the person that they wouldn't make the annual fund, and then they found words in 2 Corinthians 4, which the message version said, Don't throw up your hands. This is God's ministry. And the person said, I needed that reminder.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, as I as I've been revisiting um Growing Givers' Hearts, you know, here at its 25th anniversary, I started by looking again at the title. And, you know, sometimes you can sort of second guess and go, Well, you know, maybe that sounds a little clunkier. Would we change the title? But as I went through it kind of word by word, um I think it was very intentional whether we would or not at the time. But the idea that we say treating fundraising as ministry, not doing fundraising as ministry, it's treating. And that takes the emphasis away just from the development office or the fundraising staff to the organization. How does the organization treat fundraising? We know how we treat ministry with great honor, and um, you know, we it's what we are. But so to treat fundraising that way, when as you've already noticed, people, you know, sort of, oh, you know, that that goes on over there, and I'd rather not even know what's happening, you know, but but bring me the money, bring me the money, you know, kind of thing. Um, so that that idea of treating fundraising as ministry is intentionally institution-wide specific. It it doesn't apply just to the office. It we say a lot in the book to encourage fundraisers in their ministry, in their aspect of this ministry, as often the teachers of this ministry to others. But it I also have a lot to say to boards, I have a lot to say to CEOs, and something to say to donors. You know, so it's it's a it's a very communal understanding of what ministry is. So I I thought, wow, after 25 years, I still, I that's still what I believe. That we didn't set out to write a how-to book. We set out to write a why and and what is this really about at heart? And if we get that right, everything else will follow. But if we miss that in the beginning, then we're gonna be doing work in a way that won't look that much different from other just regular fundraising out there. And in many ways, it doesn't at a surface glance. But once you start talking to the fundraiser or to the board or to the CEO, or especially to donors, the difference should come through loud and clear.
SPEAKER_00:So you mentioned um, you know, you even starting in the introduction, uh the the headline there is fundraising and the expression of faith. So fundraising, you know, where it's I guess in in there's no difference in secular fundraising in the sense that if you whatever your belief is in, you will tend to put your money toward um if you have some generosity. Right. But as an expression of faith, I mean making that case makes the dynamic of fundraising a whole lot different than just saying, hey, give me money. I I need it for XYZ. You're helping people express their faith in that way.
SPEAKER_02:That really um dawned on us when we were in Tucson and we were taught and working with the diocese, the Catholic Diocese of Tucson, and we interviewed a young Mexican priest who had almost all Spanish speakers as his congregation, and he talked to us about his own conversion to understanding. Um, and he actually used the word fundraising in the church, didn't baptize it with the word stewardship. Um, he really he really understood it as a conversion experience, much in the way what Martin Luther talked about, you know, the conversion of the purse.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And they had in within his parish had determined that nobody could sit on the stewardship committee until they had gone through the evangelization process.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And I didn't know exactly what that meant, but as I started reading it about it, I thought, wow, that is taking this really seriously. It meant that before anyone could sit on the stewardship committee, their heart had to be right. Their understanding of resources and their faith had to be right with God. Oh, interesting. It was it was amazing. And I think that's really where uh a piece of what we were trying to get at began to gill for us in that young priest who had a parish that most people would have looked at and said, there aren't many resources here, there were amazing resources there when they began to approach stewardship in that way. In my tradition, we would call it discipleship. You can't, you can't. I mean, I thought, oh my goodness, if we said you can't serve on the stewardship committee at our church until you can prove that you're a mature disciple, you know, and I'm like, oh, I don't know if we'd have anybody on the committee. Um, you know, so because we just don't often link those two. You know, it's it's kind of money's over here and God's over here.
SPEAKER_00:Right, and I know yeah, and I want to get to some of the specifics, but what would what you're putting there is really that this is a key piece of discipleship. I heard uh one of my mentors in ministry used to say the last thing to come to the church and the first thing to go is the wallet, right? Which I know is a saying, but but there there is a discipleship issue. There is a heart of generosity that comes or goes, and we see that play out in how we use our money. Um so I want to talk real quickly because we you know in the minutes we have remaining, but a couple of things I want to get to, because what I think this is really important to talk about the foundation of this, because part of as we uh raise money for schools, as we raise money in theological education, what we're doing is helping people in their discipleship. We're helping them see something beyond just a plaque on a building or you know, giving to a relief effort, and those are all good things. But you're sowing seeds into ministry for years to come by supporting theological education. There's another step of of giving here, right? Because you may not see the ministry you're helping or or that. Um so I think it's important to talk about these foundations, your book, and I'll post links to it. Um I own copies both in print and on Kindle. It's available. It's available. Um but one of the things that you have taught in the years since um is is this idea that fundraising goes through the whole organization. It's the CEO, it's the board, not just the board chair, it's the board, and not just writing the check. It's the board, it's the organization itself. Talk a little bit about uh, you know, what what not just what you found, but what in the past 25 years you've come to believe about that. The organization seeing fundraising is ministry.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. In fact, I just wrote a uh essay for the Intrast Center that will be posted soon on almost that very theme. Talking about we need to, if we if a board and administration and the whole institution says we are committed to fundraising as ministry, we want to treat fundraising as ministry, then the board and and others need to be very, very careful about goal setting so that we know that we aren't overestimating what the donor base is able to do. At the same time, we don't want to underestimate. So it's finding that sweet spot. But to help ministry heads and boards understand that when year after year we set goals for fundraising by a method that I call the gap theory, we add everything up, see what likely income is, and slap everything else goes into the fundraising budget. Never mind if there's any chance in the world that our constituency can do that.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:So if we do that year after year, and every year we have to sadly say we didn't meet our goal, what that communicates is disappointment in our constituents. You let us down again, once again. Even if we don't say that out loud, that comes through. And then people begin to back off because it's like, well, why am I even bothering if year after year? So it it really needs the board needs to have a good awareness of the makeup of the of the donor base. There's a whole list of questions I say that a board needs to be asking whenever we set fundraising goals. And I say we because I sit on a seminary board now. So um, and then also the board saying, and what are we doing? First with our own giving, what are we modeling? Are we ourselves giving at the same significant and sacrificial level that we expect of others or that we hope for from others? We act like we expect it, you know, and but um, you know, so to understand how important that is, then to make sure that that we have a you know sufficient staffing because it takes people to raise money, to be out there. And particularly fundraising as ministry is very relationship driven. And relationships require people who have the time and availability to be talking to individuals and making sure that we're doing all the things like following up and saying thank you and all of that sort of thing. So that you know, those pieces need to be in place that. And uh, if a board says and the budget makers we just can't increase what we're spending on fundraising, well then set that goal accordingly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Set your goal accordingly to what you are, or the board can say, we can't afford more paid fundraisers. Here's what we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, but it but there's where the the board really carries a huge um responsibility here. And the fundraisers alone, regardless of how deep their commitment is, the fundraising is ministry, if they feel stressed and pushed and sometimes even shamed, they're gonna end up doing things that they wouldn't want to do. They're gonna end up, as one board member told me, I want I want our fundraising team to be out there twisting arms and kicking butts. And I thought, well, come back and tell me how that worked for you in a couple of years. Um, but that certainly is not a formula for growing givers' hearts. It's not like my definition of ministry either.
SPEAKER_00:But well, I think there's you one thing you hit on, and I love when you talk about the gap theory. It's like we set the budget and we say, hey, we're gonna have this gap, fundraisers go make it up. Um the reality is a fundraising program takes time, it takes growth. Uh, one of the things I appreciate about your book, the growing, the you know, that that part of it, growing givers' hearts, it takes time, it takes relationship, it takes effort. Um, so there's that. I mean, talk a little bit about time. It's not something you say, hey, we're gonna drop a you know five million dollar campaign and we're gonna have it at most schools, would not be you're probably not gonna raise that in two weeks.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I know, and and anytime we try to rush things, we end up pressuring people. Um, we end up taking shortcuts. It's just not the right way to go. But again, boards need to understand that. And often when I talk with boards, I ask them to tell me stories of organizations that they particularly enjoy giving to and tell me, okay, how do they ask? And that is that is really helpful for them to step back. Strangely, it's seldom the seminary that they mention.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Now, I don't know if they think I want them to talk to about somebody other or some organization other than the seminary, but I'm I sometimes I'll say it's okay if you name the seminary, you know, tell me about that. Uh I should do a research project on that. I'm not quite sure what that all means, but but I I have that happen more often than not, I have to say. So yeah, it it for me, a lot of it just keeps coming back to the board, but that's probably because my life is sort of bifurcated between board and fundraising, fundraising a board. So I see the two going so closely together.
SPEAKER_00:Well, well, I appreciate the fact that you've elevated the board in this conversation or elevated fundraising to the board, because it's it's one, it's a fiduciary responsibility, but more broadly, it's it's a basic part of um the ministry. As you say, if if fundraising is ministry, that's certainly a board task that they need to pay attention to and be part of. Um I want to touch on a couple things as we start to close. The book is is based in three parts. It's you know, the first part you dealt with is what Christian fundraising is. The second part there's the fruit of the research you did, uh which in which you come to six essential characteristics of fundraising as a ministry. That includes uh you know, clarity, a holistic perspective, confidence in God's abundance. There's there's others I'll let people buy the book and and look at it. Um and then part three, you talk about fundraising the fundraiser's ministry. So the ministry of this. So this again, the book was published 25 years ago. I found resonance throughout it. Now we know that in the last 25 years, donor trends have have changed, uh, the economies changed, school perspectives have changed, all this has changed. As I say, I found the principles still to resonate. Tell me a little bit about though, looking back on 25 years, you know, if you were to write an appendix to this or an epilogue or uh, you know, an afterword now at the 25th.
SPEAKER_02:Which is what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00:There you go, 25th uh uh you know, anniversary edition. And and by the way, we'll post your essay when it's posted online on the the podcast page as well. But what would you say in this? What's what are your big ideas now 25 years after publication?
SPEAKER_02:One of the things that Tom and I said in the beginning, and kind of the introduction to the book was one of the things that we noticed was even 25 years ago, church attendance was in decline.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And we noticed that pastors are reluctant to talk about money. And so even the faithful who are still going to church were not necessarily hearing uh being helped to understand their the relationship between their faith and their money. And what that did is it meant that the fundraisers for faith-based organizations had become the default stewardship officers for the church writ large. Nobody was paying any attention to that. It wasn't as if anybody hired development officers with that in mind, but that was what was happening. Well, fast forward 25 years, but church attendance is an utter free fall. You know, it's just going down and down and down. I don't think pastors are any more happy to talk about money today than they were 25 years ago, maybe even more reluctant. Um, and so the ministry of that we talk about in the third section, which is directed specifically to fundraisers, the vocation of fundraising is ministry, um, is even, I think, more critical today than it was 25 years ago, which I you know, I think, oh my goodness, how can that be? Um, and I'm not certain that there is any more of an awareness of that among CEOs, executive directors, in our case, presidents, boards, anybody who's making budget decisions or deciding what what what are the characteristics of who we should be hiring, what should their professional development look like. Now, there is the you know, the wonderful Lake Institute on faith, I can't remember exactly what their whole title is, but you know, they're doing amazing work. And there are organizations that are, but that there are thousands of fundraisers running around the countryside. And what I find amazing is even after all these years, like just this last week, I received a message from someone who had found the book and said, thank you. This resonates so much with how I feel about the work I'm doing at May Name Their Ministry. And I thought, okay, something about this, even though in many ways it's dated now, um the principles still resonate to the people who are actually doing the work. And that makes me very happy. It also makes me kind of sad though, too, that that they had to kind of stumble upon the book to find support and language for what they were feeling.
SPEAKER_00:So let me let me ask, I mean, based then on on there, what um what advice today, other than say you know, buy the book or watch one of the webinars that uh listen to the podcast, watch one of the webinars we have in the interest center's website. There's some really good resources. Reach out to our resource consulting team, resources at intrust.org. Um, you know, that there's basic advice there. But 25 years post the publication of this, what's the advice you would give a president, a dean, a board of a seminary on fundraising? Let's wrap it up there.
SPEAKER_02:At a very basic level, treat fundraising with the same spiritual seriousness with which you uh treat every aspect of the ministry of in our case theological education. And maybe even more so in our case, because our schools are equipping pastors, they're equipping leaders for all sorts of faith-based and civic and other organizations who are going to carry their understanding of the intersection of faith and money with them when they leave our school. And what do we want them to take with them? And what are we modeling now? I'll tell you one more quick story. While we were doing the research, I was talking with a board chair of a school that I was actually consulting with, and she had just gotten back from one of those wonderful lily um funded sabbaticals for pastors. And on that time, she had discovered the spirituality of fundraising, and she'd begun to think about that. And she said, I realized that I had left the school with such a deep sense of scarcity because that's all I ever saw at the seminary. That's all I ever heard from the professors. It's anytime we ask for something as students, we were told, well, we can't afford it. And she said, I took that mindset with me to my congregation. And she had been in ministry by that time for 15 years, and she said, I weep for the 15 years that I wasted.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my.
SPEAKER_02:And she said, I came back from my sabbatical with a different message. And that was the message of abundance. And she said, it has changed my ministry. That's what I want boards and presidents to hear. That our approach when we talk about institutional finances, because we say we're, we may not use the exact language, but we in some way communicate that we are doing God's work. We are on mission with God, we are about God in the world. And but if we look like we're gonna go under at the next breath, that we're barely hanging on by our fingernails, what are we communicating to our students? And then to realize that's what they're gonna be taking out into the broader church. If that doesn't give a sense of urgency, I don't know what will. But I hope, you know, just understanding that, that what we model has eternal consequences, and we better get it right.
SPEAKER_00:My goodness. I'm about to pass the collection plate here, Rebecca. That is a powerful, powerful thought to end on. Um, thank you once again so much uh for your time and your work in theological education, of course, with the Intrust Center for Theological Schools. Rebecca, always a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, thank you so much, Matt. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.