In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 95: Forming leaders inside and out, exploring CBTE's potential
Competency-based theological education (CBTE) is reshaping how future church leaders are formed – and it’s more than just skills training. In this episode, Dr. Susan Reese of Kairos University and Dr. Nathan Hitchcock, CBTE consultant, discuss how this approach emphasizes character, spiritual formation, and lived practice alongside academics. From mentoring and integration with local churches to assessing “heart” competencies like friendship, rest, and resilience, They also discuss issues like assessment and rigor and offer reasons why schools may consider CBTE.
The CBTE 2025 conference (in November 2025) was referenced in the show. You can find out more here.
The book "Theological Education: Principles and Practices of a Competency-Based Approach" was also mentioned. It can be found on Amazon here. (The In Trust Center does not earn any compensation from the link.)
Hello, and welcome to the Intrust Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. You know, one of the topics that we have covered at the Intrust Center over several years has been CBTE, which stands for competency-based theological education. And uh there's been pushback in the field, there's been confusion over what it is, and the forms. In the meantime, competency-based theological education has continued to flourish throughout the field in Canada and the United States. On this podcast, I have talked about a book about theological education, theological education principles and practices of a competency-based approach by two of the innovators in the field, Kent Anderson up in Canada, Greg Henson in the United States. And so as we're looking ahead to where competency-based theological education is going, and it continues, as I say, to grow in some amazing ways. We're going to talk about the current movements in the field, things that President Steen's board should know about it. And I'm joined first by Dr. Susan Rees, who is the professor of spiritual formation at Kairos University. Susan, welcome to the program.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, thank you. It's really good to be here to join in on this conversation.
SPEAKER_03:And Dr. Nathan Hitchcock, a CBTE consultant with Seven-Sided Consulting. Nathan, great to have you as well. Hey, happy to be here. So it's great to talk with you both. Kairos University has certainly been one of the innovators, and you've both been involved in this for a long time. I want to talk about first, I want to start with what CBT is, because I think some folks have relegated that, kind of put it in a little box about what it is or isn't. And it has evolved in many ways. Of course, I think I might argue that competency-based theological education isn't a new thing. I mean, the church has been doing this for centuries. But Nathan, let me start with you. How do you think people ought to define what competency-based theological education is?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there is some confusion about it. Yeah, we can start by what it's not. It's not just skills training. I know some people associate the word competency with that, but it's not just that. It does include skills, but it's not exclusively that. It's also not a specific model. You're absolutely right. Uh, there have been models before that have been something like CBTE. I like to think that Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts were actually competency-based in some way. If you think about it, they would earn badges, these kids would, through demonstrated proficiency. And that's a key part of what CBTE is. It's competency-based in the sense that you get credit for it and you demonstrate it. And uh it happened this way, and scouts still happens this way. If you want to get your rowing badge, you actually need to get in the canoe and start rowing. You need to demonstrate proficiency, and that's when you get the badge. Not when you spend a certain amount of time in a cohort or a certain amount of time watching YouTube videos. So that's a key piece of it. And I think another key thing that we're doing that opens up options for us is it's a different way of supervision. It's it's distributed. So we are still using professors, but we're also encouraging the use of coaches, pastors, on-site people, and especially mentors.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, I've found um in my time in theological education in the church, often we think people have formative experiences in the classroom. And and well, that's true. I mean, I I have certainly had those experiences. I have had formative moments in the classroom, even in a Greek classroom, um, believe it or not. But there's a sense, though, that just because somebody takes a course, they've been they're competent. And that's not always the case. I mean, it means they passed, and I'm not, I don't want to get nasty emails or letters. All right. So I want to be careful on this. There's certainly obviously classroom competencies. But let's talk about the competencies you're trying to shape. I mean, Susan, you're a professor. What are you looking for? Because this is a little different than certainly when you came up, got your doctoral degree and all, then maybe what was often trained. What would you say is you're looking for in a student through competency-based theological education?
SPEAKER_00:Certainly. Yes. I think you even as you started, you said that the church has always been about competency-based. I really echo that this isn't a new model of learning or a new way of being. Um, certainly something that has taken intentional effort to implement into seminary training. So I right away always go to students that I'm experiencing. And literally 17 years ago, watching students who were trained for the vocation of church pastoral leading working other places. And I would ask them, so why are you working at this local store or this car lot? I said, quote, they would say, seminary didn't train me how to be with people. That stung. As one working in a seminary for quite a while, it's just stung because I knew their hearts for their call to serve God in a local congregation. And not that they weren't still doing that in their current role, in the role they were in, but this with competency-based, it certainly gives that relational dynamic room to be noticed, the character formation, paying attention to, you know, how is it that we're growing in fruit of the spirit? How is it that we're growing in suffering and enjoys? So those are the things that certainly are difficult to measure and have been, that's been a growth on my own behalf as a professor to say I could figure out how to measure an academic paper or study or report. But how do I measure somebody's conversation that they're having with somebody in a difficult situation? So I think that that competency base gives us that space and that permission to look at who is the student becoming in their call through mentorship, through relationship. Um and actually, as one who's always submitted syllabi for ATS approval, you know, we were always about knowing, sure, we're gonna get the content down and figured out. And then we kind of figured out that character piece or that craft piece. But now we don't, we just we have to pay attention to those. And I have seen the growth, exponential growth in students and they're maturing to who they are and maturing to their own.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess I just want to echo what Susan's saying here that it's given us permission to attend to character directly, um, to get really into that. And we've been saying this for years, right? It's in our program outcomes, it's in our mission language, even, but are we really going after the heart? And I think CBT has opened that up for Susan, for me, for many others, where it's not just about the head. It still is, and it's not just about hands. It really, it really is about the heart. And CBT has opened up things like contextuality. Uh, a lot of people love the programs for that reason. Others love it because it's much more integrated than a traditional model. But I guess yeah, it would really underscore this. It helps us get at the affective domain, which we've been saying for years we were going to get after. Well, now we're actually getting after it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, sure. For for ATS accredited schools, spiritual formation isn't just a thing, it is part of the standards. You know, now how people get after that is different. So, Nathan, talk to me a little bit about you mentioned the forms a few ways. Again, what are the forms and how people are getting at this? What would you say? I mean, what are some of the new things or some of the things that, you know, people may not hear? We've talked about mentors, coaches, clergy, and others. But talk to me a little bit about the forms that this takes to affect the heart.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let me give a couple examples because they're they're kind of different. If you look at the Grace Theological Seminary or Kairos or Northwest or others, they're using mentors who are there for the entire program. They have certain supervisors who are going to see a student the whole way through their MA or MDiv. And so you can actually see how a student begins to change. And this is important because the heart, there's something longitudinal about the way we assess the heart. Uh, it doesn't necessarily subject itself to a spot assessment or even within the terms of a semester. You want to watch somebody for years on this. Um, so you have these summatives at the end where you can actually say, hey, we've been watching you for a while here. We see a bunch of artifacts that you've submitted, and we can actually see a pattern. So that's one way that you can get after it. Another way that I think people are pursuing the heart is they're actually just naming it very explicitly. Uh, group I've been very excited about working with is the Alliance of Reformed Churches. So this is not a seminary, it's a new denomination. Well, the Alliance of Reformed Churches has a competency framework, and they've actually started naming some heart competencies that are very specific that they want to see in their pastors. And it's almost unnerving how specific they've gotten at times. Because some of those competencies can be like, we want our people to agree with the ecumenical creeds. Like you need to agree with the Nicene Creed. Right. But it also includes things like we insist that our pastors have friends. You're not eligible for ordination unless you're a pastor who has active friendships, and we'll test on that. Uh likewise, um, our pastors need to be practicing the Sabbath. That is, they need to be having weekly rest and they need to be having good patterns of rest. So family vacations, uh, they're not optional. Like you need to be doing this if you want to be an alliance pastor. And I guess I just, you know, as awkward as that can be at times, I've been really excited about it because I think it's a denomination that's being honest about what they're really looking for and they're daring to assess it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think that's uh it's an interesting thing for denomination. I mean, we're in a time right now where we have seen any number of issues in the church. Now, I'm not suggesting this is novel. I'm suggesting certainly that we're hearing about it, which may be novel, right? We're pastors at whether it's burnout, whether it's uh moral failures or other things. But the assessment at some point, there's there's something cooperative between church and seminary, right? Seminaries are supposed to make people for the church, but the church and seminary, there there can be some gaps, I think. So talk to me a little bit about that in terms of I think it's interesting you're talking about this denomination making those specific things known. But how do you see, I mean, when you have clergy, when you have coaches, churches, mentors, tell me a little bit about the work between church and seminary as a form in terms of formation.
SPEAKER_02:I think what this has done is it's clarified what sorts of things seminaries are really good at, and what professors who are subject matter experts are really good at, where we really need professors, and other areas where maybe the professor is not the best person. I admit this is very humbling for me. I taught church history and hermeneutics, and what I was finding is that certain parts, certain things that I was hoping for for students, I wasn't the best person to develop them. And I wasn't the best person to assess them. So being honest about that, can we just let the church or these ministry environments do what they do well? And then I think these environments, they actually look back at the seminary and they go, you know, being honest, there's certain things that you do better than we can do. The more academic things, yes, some of the more advanced things. Those things need to be in place with a subject matter expert. But I think it helps us divide things up more effectively.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. Susan, what do you see? You work in spiritual formation.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. I I tend to lean towards the word integration because what is it that somebody brings as their own gifting, whether that be in an organization or as a person? But how are those things all integrating for that transforming to the image of Christ for the sake of others? And so it allows people to have a sense of expertise, but also that space for how is it that I need to grow? Since being on mentor teams in our Kairos model of competency-based, there's things I've learned and grown in that I would have never had even known about or experienced in my traditional education role, because students are bringing current things and conversations. And sometimes I have students start and they've studied Greek and Hebrew in their church, and they've studied things that are what we would have called seminary-level education. So the being able to honor prior learning and not in a flippant way at all, but in a very integrative way of honoring who they've been in their discipling, in their discipleship process as they enter into a either a degree program or certificate, whatever it is they're pursuing. So I've really leaned into that as a form of learning is the integrative model, but also just noting, reminding students that everywhere they go is their classroom, whether it's their neighborhood or their church or their bivocation, and how are they paying attention to what God's doing in those places and what's the invitation to learning? Um, I'm big on the phrase conversation creates culture. So what kind of conversation are they having, whether it be in a seminary class or um a neighborhood picnic? All that becomes a form and a place of learning.
SPEAKER_03:You've both been professors in what we would might call traditional settings, right? What's the what's been the change for you? I mean, to try to get to this? Because again, that not necessarily how you were brought up, not necessarily how you were taught. Now, as a professor, you're being taught, you're being told to start to measure things in different ways. Talk to me a little bit about that experience, about what that's taken, what you've seen in doing that. Um, because you're both championing uh competency-based theological education. What was the switch for you? Susan, you want to you want to start there?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I say God knew I needed my own doctoral degree to make me ready for this, because I watched it modeled in my own doctoral advisor, who certainly gave attention to content and scholarship, but then was so skillful at creating assignments that caused us to integrate it into our workplace. And so I recall starting that in a course that I taught on change and conflict. I'd handed out the syllabi in a traditional class. And then I said, next week, come back and tell me what you need to add to this. And the students walked in the classroom and said, I don't know how to do that. What do I do? What are you looking for? And I thought, well, that's concerning. So these are, and so that those were some of my cues, I think, getting getting myself ready for this kind of model of education. But also some of the ways that we were encouraged as seminaries to start paying attention to character formation in students. And there were certain kinds of conversations happening through growth manuals or, you know, interviews with students throughout, not just advising academically, but conversations that were geared more towards their character. So I think a lot of those things were preparing Kairos University to be ready for this kind of model. Because there, there was always mentoring happening, just probably more informally than how it's happened more formally now. Um, you know, with a little more intention of having a faculty mentor and a uh ministry or vocation mentor, and then a personal or spiritual director. So I look back and say, we were we were being made ready for this kind of a model.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Nathan, how about for you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have to think that it really shifted me to the heart, which was not always easy. It's been humbling. Um yeah, I think I was avoiding it for a long time, but then realizing that as you know, I was doing more mentoring and coaching, most students needed less TED talk, more Ted Lasso.
SPEAKER_03:You know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. More motivation, more encouragement, more uh more one-on-one.
SPEAKER_02:And some of it was just the objectives themselves. You know, we could talk about the reformation, which I care deeply about, but they also wanted to know how to be reformers in their own church and in their own church tradition, and talking through those things really mattered. Other times the block was really in a place of the heart. I remember one particularly dramatic instance where there was a church history competency that we were working on. And in short, it had to do with like evangelical retrieval of the tradition and like what do we pull back in into the evangelical life. Anyway, had a particular student, she did so well on the assignment in terms of describing the book, explaining that, engaging some basic themes. But the final piece was she wasn't really analyzing something very sharply. There was a lot to pick at, and she just wasn't picking at it very, very much. So in the end, I said, Yeah, okay, it looks good. You get a pass. But it so happened that another mentor who so happened to be her pastor also had eyes on this assignment. And he said, No way, we are not giving her a pass on this. I said, uh, okay, any reason why? And he said, She is afraid of her own voice. I said, Oh, okay. And I said, Well, do you want her just to rewrite this? He said, No, we need to have an intervention. I said, You want to have an intervention over a church history paper? And he's like, Yeah. So I remember meeting with her and and having her pastor who just spoke to her very bluntly and said, You are afraid of your own voice. And if you can't articulate truth here in this kind of setting, how are you possibly going to speak truth in a church? Interesting. And she started crying, and it was a very moving moment. And I'll tell you what, uh, we got to the heart of the matter. Rather, this pastor got to the heart of the matter. And when she turned in the second draft, it was an amazing paper. But it wasn't because she was failing at church history per se. It's because it was actually a character thing that she was working on.
SPEAKER_03:This sounds like a bit of work. Or maybe it's just more intentionally driven. It's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00:I think I hear some concerns that it's not rigorous enough. And I would, I would challenge that to say it's rigor in a different way. And Nathan, your story there just explained that so beautifully. Um because it it really honed in on who she who she is, but also who she was resisting in being. Um, so that reflective work that comes. I think just I'm really hoping it will help not have as much fallout from people in their in their roles of leadership and ministry, because they've done some reflective work in thoughtfulness and scholarship. And how has that really shaped and encouraged their heart, encouraged them to be the pastor that they need to be, to be the real estate agent they need to be.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think in terms of seminary education, in terms of being a seedbed people into ministry, you know, the story you just told Nathan, there's somebody who knew her very, very well and cared about the student, obviously. Because you don't you don't challenge that person or encourage that person to grow in that way on a church history paper, right? Um, that's probably not the typical seminary experience. One of one of the things we've talked a little bit about in preparing for this conversation is heart formation uh and spiritual formation. And how I think you're both passionate. I know you're both passionate about um that that kind of heart formation that can happen through this. Talk to me a little bit about this. I mean, Susan, let me start with you. As a as a professor of spiritual formation, how do you see CBTE affecting that or shaping students as they prepare for ministry?
SPEAKER_00:Certainly. Yes, this is something um Ruth McGilvray, whose voice is very significant in the whole movement, is uh her reminder that we we begin with the end in mind, how important that is to know where are we heading. And in that that heart formation, I find myself saying a lot to students to trust the process not only of what you're learning, but your own growth. And where do you need to pause and um maybe do a little refining work or maybe where do you need to trust the gifting that God's given you a bit more and lean into that? Um you know, certainly the the whole sense of who are we called to be and what are we called to do gets a lot of space in this model of education. I mean, I I too have had people well up with tears in mentor team meetings because they're so they're so struck that people are paying attention to the who they are and who they're becoming in heart, soul, and mind. And that that's a pretty honoring place to be, uh, to be able to bless people with this. We see who who you're created to be in the image of God. We hear your heart, your passion and compassion for kingdom work. So to continue to encourage that on. Um, and interesting enough, that's that's freed up a lot of people to write curriculum, which is certainly a um a part of scholarship and uh that that theological reflection that comes along with publishing something for others to learn and grow from, grow in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What do you see, Nathan? I know there's a lot of concern right now about AI and how AI is really making a lot of the cognitive domain difficult because AI is so good at a lot of the stuff that we professors are good at, good at recall and understanding and analysis, et cetera. Yes. Um, and this is we can we can take this as a great challenge because it is, but it's also an invitation for us to get back to heart formation. And again, this is where I'm excited about CBTE because this is a space that uh it's not AI resistant exactly, but it's a little bit in a different world. Because when you go to the heart, you're talking about things that are personal, relational, behavioral, and uh longitudinal. I mentioned that before. That's really important. Because when you're actually looking at the heart and assessing the heart, you get into people's personal stuff and you begin to examine their relationships, which means you need to talk to people that they're in relationship with. Um, it's behavioral, so it's not just you know one or two things, it's actually this pattern of excellence where they're actually establishing themselves by setting up a habit, and it's which just takes time. It's longitudinal. So yeah, they might not get it that week, and that's okay. They might not get it over a 15-week semester. And I think this is where sometimes people resist CBTE because they go, well, you guys are breaking the time format. You're not thinking in terms of weeks anymore, and you're not thinking in terms of credit hours anymore, and you maybe you're not even thinking in terms of semesters in some kind of fundamental way. And the truth is we're not. Like we still use semesters, we still use credit hours typically, but that's not the baseline measurement anymore. Because if you really want to go after the heart, you're probably looking at a time period, well, that can't be predicted entirely.
SPEAKER_03:Sure, sure. No, I I appreciate I appreciate both of those, but there's um again, I'll put uh Ken Anderson and Greg Henson's book in the comment in the chatter on the podcast page, which is intrust uh.org slash podcast, which is a great kind of how-to primer. Um, I also want to talk a little bit about the CBTE conference this year. Uh, but I want to know one of the things that I've heard both of you, you haven't said this, but you mentioned Ruth McGilvray's name. We've mentioned some other people. One of the things that's really impressed me in this movement is there's not competition, or I haven't seen it. It's not like come to our school because we do CBTE better. It's it's there's been a lot of camaraderie in the field. And I think that goes back to this idea that part of the heart of CBTE seems to be about the formation of a holistic person, you know, the the their understanding, their heart, their abilities. Am I getting that about right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yes, yeah. When colleagues have asked me about what it would be like to join the competency-based world, I said, well, be ready to lay down your swords. We're not in opposition to each other. We're finding ways to support each other and really encourage this, yeah, this discipleship process.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's a there's because there's competency in different. I know Nathan, you mentioned one one denomination, but it's happening across denominational spaces. And so people are finding their competencies and their voices within those spaces, within their traditions.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So and there really are some significant differences, not just between denominations, but between models. And that's okay. We're we're genuinely okay with having some diversity there. But but I can testify to this. It's been amazing how much peace and camaraderie there is. I mean, it's not just Northwest, it's not just Kairos. We have a Martin Luther College, but we have SALT, Bexley Seabury, we have, I mean, the list goes on and on. Anabaptist Mennonite, Trinity School for Ministry, or rather, Trinity Anglican Seminary, Alvin Theological Seminary, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Providence University College. I mean, the list goes on and on of people who are doing this now. And you kind of have to show up and get and get with these people. Some of them, sometimes they're just exploring. Other times they really are building, and others are enhancing their programs. But I don't know what you'd say, Susan, but I've really seen a lot of fellowship.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. Yes, very much so.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and there's and and we should note that a piece of seminary education has always had some competency based. I mean, in any class, there's a competency. But certainly in seminary where you're teaching whether people in a in a more liturgical setting to do sacraments, or you're teaching people how to give a sermon or homily. There's a competency in this. What you're talking in some of the models is that uh in my understanding, I don't want to put words in your mouth. The uh, but certainly there's there's levels of this to the point where somebody is having an experience about their character and formation in a church history class, which I don't think is typical. Although I will say I may have shed a few tears in a few classes, namely Greek, but that's aside from the matter. So tell me a little bit about what somebody, if they go to the CBT conferences here, what do you think will be highlighted? What are some of the things that are are growing or the new models that that somebody might learn about this year?
SPEAKER_02:Well, there's so many different directions that we'll probably be going. I I think I can guarantee to everybody that you'll pick up something new, probably by accident, but you'll also have your own questions answered. We have enough people represented there at the CBTE conference this November. One that just comes to mind is how do you do iterative assessment? That is, how do you have somebody submit something that maybe is half baked or just isn't up to snuff? What does it mean to give them feedback and then to say, thanks, but you've developed this and that, but you're not there yet? We don't use the fail word very often. We used to, actually, Susan and I used to be colleagues, and I remember we actually did use the word fail for a while. And I do remember there was a student. I failed him on a church history competency, and uh, he told me later that he he went home and collapsed on the couch in the fetal position, and his wife found him there. And uh, she said, What's wrong? And he said, Dr. Hitchcock failed me on something, and she said, It's about time. Wow, he was an overachiever and had never failed at anything in his life. Nevertheless, we learned not to use the F-word very often because it had deleterious effects. But but really the spirit of it is not yet that you can actually send something back to a student once, twice, three times, and that's exactly how it needs to be. And so just hearing some stories about that and knowing some mechanisms. That's just one example of how protocols are different.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. Sure. What do you think? What are you expecting for this conference, Susan? What do you hope to experience or what do you hope to share?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I'm I'm hoping it is a learning community experience for people, no matter which role they fulfill in a seminary or an educational setting. Because it it I will always defer to what do the students need and what are we creating? How are we imagining and reimagining what education will look like or how it needs to happen? So I think that we're expecting a lot of space for conversations. Certainly there'll be some people offering some expertise to shape those conversations. And I think it really is about that paying attention to not only forming organizations, but how do we continue to really lean into and care about the formation of the people in the organizations?
SPEAKER_03:I'm going to ask this question. You may have just answered it, I think, in what you said, but what advice or what would you tell a board or a senior leader of a seminary who's trying to figure out what CBT is or why they ought to pay? Attention to it. What would you say to them? Nathan, you want to start with that?
SPEAKER_02:I'd say come join the dialogue. Okay. You need to talk to some of these people and hear about how they're going after not just head, not just hands, but also the heart and uh and get exposed to some of these models. I I really think there's a lack of imagination. We've gotten so caught up in some of our models. And and I'm sympathetic here. You know, when you really start getting outside of the norm, it can be scary. Uh, Susan and I both had to go through this. Um, but I would just dare people to go through it and and see if you can get a bigger horizon, get back to that Christian imagination.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Susan, any thoughts that you might add to that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm thinking of a few students that I've had that work in higher education. And I would suggest to detect where it's already happening. Because again, this is a model of education that's been around, the apprenticeship model, ways of discipline, all those things. So kind of detect where it's already happening, and that will help give some language to um how to continue to maybe encourage others into the model. Perhaps that's by recognizing a professor who already understands learning styles, which is quite significant. I mean, the students coming from education of K through 12 right now have been very steeped in learning styles already. Sure. That's not new news to them. They're expecting that kind of uh opportunity. So I think that that's part of it is where's the glimmers of where it's already happening in their respective setting?
unknown:Ben.
SPEAKER_03:Well, this has been a great conversation. We're gonna put uh some links in the podcast, uh, chatter at intrust.org slash podcast. I want to thank my guest, Dr. Susan Reese, professor of spiritual formation at Kairos University. Susan, thanks so much for being here. Thank you. And Dr. Nathan Hitchcock, CBTE consultant with Seven Sided Consultant. Nathan, great to talk to you again.
unknown:Yeah, thank you, man.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.