In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 97: Co-creating the Church of tomorrow
Catholic Theological Union in Chicago is shaping a vibrant approach to theological education to help shape the Catholic Church. Dr. Karen Ross discusses how the Pathways for Tomorrow initiative has helped create a living-learning community that empowers young adults—especially from marginalized backgrounds—to co-create the Church of tomorrow. Through scholarships, housing, and leadership opportunities, CTU is forming a new generation of lay leaders whose ministries extend beyond traditional church roles into social justice, education, and community life. Learn about CTU's program on its website here.
Hello and welcome to the Intra Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. The Pathways for Tomorrow initiative has brought a great brand of creativity into theological education. And that goes across all types of denominations and religious beliefs in the broad spectrum of Christianity. Today I'm joined by Dr. Karen Ross, a professor of theology and ethics at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, and the director of the Pathways for Tomorrow project at CTU. Karen, welcome to the program.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02:So Pathways at CTU is about a living learning community. A lot of young people and an inclusive brand. It's intentionally designed to bring a variety of young folks into theological education in the Catholic context in Chicago. I mean, you built a living community, a literal everybody's there. Yes. Um, and you are intentionally trying to create uh diversity in the church among young people. So that's my introduction to it. Uh tell me a little bit about the project and what how you would describe it.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Well, you described it really beautifully. So the people, the visionaries of the grant at CTU, when they thought of the Church of Tomorrow, they naturally thought of young adults. And, you know, something within Gen Z statistics within Gen Z is um there are a lot of studies that show that they are the least religious generation, yet about one-third of Generation Z identify as religiously unaffiliated or what is called nuns, N-O-N-E-S. And um, and uh, you know, sometimes there's a um wringing of hands within theological education about what are we going to do about that. You know, there is a decline in religiosity. However, other studies have shown that young adults, even though they don't identify as religious in the institutional sense, they still really hunger for religion and spirituality. About 78% of young adults identify uh as slightly spiritual and about 68 at least slightly religious. Right. Yeah. And so we wanted to capture those young adults that are really hungry for theology and ministry, but maybe aren't in the kind of traditional church pews or in the traditional spaces. And so our living learning community is specifically for young adults from marginalized groups, and so that could be LGBTQ, uh African American, Latinoa, uh, Asian American, Pacific Islander, etc., um, but is really open to all young adults who are passionate about co-creating the church of tomorrow. That's the big tagline that they love and I love too.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let me let me stop you there before we get onto what co-creating looks like. Because I want to talk about that. It is this tension between the studies that we've seen, right? There are the nuns, the folks who don't want anything to religion, the the most, yeah, as you said quite well, least religious generation, et cetera, et cetera. And yet there's this whole spiritual hunger we also hear about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and the Catholic Church is uh, and I say this as a former altar boy. I mean, somebody grew up in this. This is the the definition of high church, right? So you don't see what you hear about in the studies is people are like, you know, going out and finding their own spirituality, but you're representing the Catholic Church. So talk to me a little bit about how the Catholic Church's appeal is, or how that is as I perhaps, I don't know, a guide, a home for young people who are in this generation that's been described as uh unreligious.
SPEAKER_03:Right. That's a great question. I think the Catholic Church definitely is high church in a lot of ways. It's a giant global institution with a capital I. However, it also is low church in a lot of ways, where there are small base ecclesial communities, um, you know, beginning in places like Latin America, but throughout the world, where young adults and other people have really found these local communities. I think that's where young adults coming into our program have really ignited with their faith, is they have experiences either in a local faith-sharing group within their communities, or university campus ministry, made them feel welcome for the first time. Um, and so they have these small communities that have brought them into Catholicism that has um perhaps before made them feel isolated or disconnected.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. And I need to be careful and nuanced here. I mean, the the Catholic Church is certainly the capital I institution, but throughout its history, there are lots of religious communities that have started, lots of missionary efforts, lots of, as you say, um, I mean, the Newman Centers on campuses, lots of ways that there have been small organic type of outreaches. So I need to be careful about that. But at the same point, you know, would when you hear about the nuns, you when you hear about the folks, you don't consider that in terms of the big institutional church. So I want to talk about that tagline that you mentioned, co-creating the church. Tell me what that means.
SPEAKER_03:So it's really about empowering young adults to tell us what the church of tomorrow looks like, and us meaning faculty, staff, people in older generations who typically have the leadership roles. What does it mean to give young adults leadership and empowerment and have them lead? And of course, we, you know, because we have experience, we can mentor them throughout that, but really giving them resources and agency to be the community of faith that they want to see in the world, it has the potential to transform theological schools. And I think, you know, the church in the US as a whole, if we're courageous enough to listen to what they need.
SPEAKER_02:Pardon me, giving them leadership in in what that looks like in theological education. So talk to me a little bit about how you know your your project, as you said, is about bringing in marginalized groups of young people. They're living in community. Right. Um, and so how you are are doing that? What does leadership look like? What does what does this look like in in how theological education is being shaped at CTU?
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's uh the project, which was obviously a a wonderful uh grant project by the Lilly Foundation, uh, has enabled us to give three big resources to these young adults. Number one, uh, well, we as uh as a theological school have provided 100% tuition scholarship. So that's outside of the grant. That's our contribution. But the grant has allowed us to provide this housing. So it's free housing, where that's a big barrier for lay young adults who don't know where to live and to fund their lives while they're in graduate school. And the graduate assistantships. So this provides stipends for them for food, for cost of living. And the assistantships are leadership positions within the school where they're helping create programming and events and community partnerships based on the things they're interested in. So, for example, we just had an empowering women in ministry graduate assistant, and she did um, she was really active in our preaching slam for women this past month, and she actually preached. She's right out of undergrad, and she was one of the five women preachers and led that whole event. And that's something that is new and exciting for women in the church as we talk about women in the diaconate in the Catholic Church. And so that's something that one of our graduates, graduate assistants worked on with NCTU.
SPEAKER_02:So part of this grant, the the pathways for tomorrow grant was the Willie Endowment wanted people as a pathway to theological education and then into the church. And as you mentioned, women in what the that role looks like. Now, what what I've heard you say in our conversations is you're looking at laity. Uh, there's a master of arts and pastoral studies, yes, but laity in the Catholic Church. Um, so tell me about that, because I love this idea that uh there's going to be, you know, not that there hasn't been or aren't, but you're you're creating people with master's level, graduate theological education, by the way, at a at the alma mater matter of the current Pope. The Pope, yes. Let's just mention that. Let's throw that out there. Um and you're you're really, you know, whether there are women in the Diacon Diaconate in the future, um, that's that's a different conversation, but you're creating well-educated lay leaders.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. So our project is primarily is for lay people. And what we've found is that when we open the door for lay young adults, who ends up coming, uh, our program right now is all young women. So they're hungry for this education, they're hungry for leadership, and so they're getting Masters of Arts and Pastoral Studies and also MDiv degrees. What's really significant about Pope Leo and CTU grads who are priests and then later maybe even popes, um, is that they're learning beside lay women, and so that shapes their seminary experience in ways that other priests might not have, and vice versa.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate the fact that other popes, so we're we're already prophetically declaring that there may be another Leo in the future. Perhaps. So you're you're a little more than midway through this program, uh, understanding that was specifically small to because you're you're providing residence, you're providing uh tuition. Right. Um how have you gauged the success of this at this point?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Well, we saw in the enrollment numbers that you know the success is already um, the program has been bearing fruit uh within enrollment. We have um about almost 50% of our new full-time lay students are the pathways students this fall. And so it really increased our full-time lay enrollment, which is ideal because a lot of lay people can only take one class at a time because of their work and other obligations. Um, and something else that's really significant is that we're seeing that the people who are in or are applying to pathways represent the US church. And so about 50% of US Catholics under the age of 30 uh around the US are Latino. And so within our applicants, we've had about 80% of our applicants in 2023 identified as Latina. So that's what's happening in the broader US Catholic Church is mirrored in our applications for pathways. And I think that's really beautiful because it's providing leadership opportunities for the growing number of Latino Catholics in the US.
SPEAKER_02:So, and I appreciate that that you're you're seeing the the parallel. What's what's in the pews is being reflected here, which is a sign of hell, um, I think. But one of the things I'm curious about is how you're training folks for the church, right? So you're gonna give them a you give them a degree, you're talking about laity. I mean, you never know. Somebody may decide that they want to become a religious woman or or something, but you're really creating people to fill ministries, or it sounds like to create ministries within the Catholic Church. Tell me about that preparation, how you're seeing them, because as as we talked about, and so I get it right this time. I mean, there is the capital I institution of the Catholic Church, and then there is a billion expressions of it in ways that from whether it's justice ministries or soup kitchens or people you know working with impoverished communities or helping immigrants, uh, ESL classes, other things, the the the variety of things. What do you when you envision what co-creating looks like for the Catholic Church with this cohort? What do you see?
SPEAKER_03:What do you see? I see entrepreneurial endeavors, as you said, within uh nonprofits, within activism groups, within um social services, within hospitals, within prisons. And we've seen that in our graduates. I think one of our graduates did go on to be a director of faith formation in a traditional parish, but everyone else is you know starting their own business as a uh nonprofit development consultant. One is a hospital chaplain now. Um, one is working with young Latinoa adults. So there's a variety of places that they envision themselves that's beyond the traditional, you know, parish job. And I think that's really beautiful that you can expand what ministry looks like based on the needs in the world and and how that meets your passion.
SPEAKER_02:When I when I survey the field, I mean it's there's a a great mix in the pathways program, for instance, of experiments and innovation and attempts of things that people may have dreamed about for years. Right? Always helps to have some money to do that kind of thing. Right. But if I'm sitting on the board of a theological school and I'm listening to this, what is it you want me to know? I mean, what do you what would you tell the leaders? Because at some point, you know, the the CTU, others are gonna have to figure out, well, what does sustainability look like? How do we, I mean, it's great what you're doing. How do we what do we look ahead to? What would you tell a a board?
SPEAKER_03:I think I would tell the board that uh young adults are excited and passionate to to be leaders and to be educated in theological spaces if we're brave enough to listen to what they need. Um, and that when we give them the space, all this different support, the housing, the um assistantships, et cetera, they will create a new institution that looks differently, has a lot more life, um, that is brave, that is inclusive, that is welcoming, that is justice-oriented. And we need to be listening to what the next generation needs out of theological education. So, you know, especially with marginalized groups, often um we are not giving them what they need to succeed in theological education, be it resources or support. And so when we give them the tools, they're able to kind of show us the way into the church in the future. And laity in general um are a living, breathing reflection of the church and what the church should be about alongside seminarians.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think in any church, I mean, whether it's Catholic, evangelical, mainline, home missions, it laity is the church. Um, right? It's it's in and so let's talk about a couple things there. I want to talk about two things there. One is um what you see as what laity needs. I mean, you're creating a very well-educated laity here, where you say, I mean, somebody be a chaplain. Um, it takes significant work to be a chaplain. Um, right. So the so one, what you see is the laity's need, I mean, particularly in your context to help uh the church. But second is, and and we can get back to this, is the the issue many schools are dealing with is this oh, the the this new generation doesn't want religion, oh, but they're spiritual, and what that needs to foster. So let's first talk about laity and how you see the laity's role in church.
SPEAKER_03:I I think that you're not going to find um, especially young people in the traditional places that you think that you would find people to recruit. And so, like parishes, uh catechesis, uh theology departments necessarily. However, uh you will find them in activism communities, in social justice spaces, in small faith-sharing communities, arts. Um, and so you know, one of our current pathway students was a TV and film major, uh, one is was a computer science major. Um, but they are very passionate about build bringing people together, talking about issues that matter to them, and seeking out uh the divine within their small communities. And so you're going to look slightly different places, uh, but find really passionate young adults.
SPEAKER_02:So you're gonna find folks who aren't hanging out in the Christian ed department, but might be, you know, at the Newman Center, might be just wandering around seeking spirituality in whatever it is, in the the business school or wherever. So different pots of different places uh that we need to be rather than the traditional, the the young, a young adult like in the mainline world who comes out of a Bible college or something, right? So the second thing I want to talk about is this tension again, um, in terms of what that looks like in fostering the generation, where you say, I mean, they're they're not the ones who if if if your students that you're seeing are not the ones that you would say are quote unquote traditional, right? They didn't come up with maybe all of the educational things that you would have. And we know this in other contexts, there are schools that are um offering essentially like Bible 101 or church 101 at the graduate level. Right. So first, I think educationally, are you seeing that? Do you need to do some of more basics that you, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, you would have seen somebody get in an undergrad?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I think um, because people are coming from different fields, often there needs to be some prerequisites or, you know, things like write the writing classes, writing theologically is one of our classes that we have. And so those aren't um, you know, they're necessary classes to introduce someone to a different way of writing, a different way of thinking in the classroom that you might not have had in STEM or in whatever field you were in. Um, but they very much display that excitement and competency to be in this new field, but they just needed extra kind of support to navigate graduate school in theology.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, even when I went to now, granted, I went to the to seminary midlife, but I hope midlife. Uh, but you know, one of the professors gave us a sheet and it's like, here are basic terms every seminary student should know. And and even those students who went to like a Bible college or had a religious degree didn't necessarily understand them.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Um and I think also um theological education needs to be a little bit more contextual in general. And I think schools are doing really great jobs with that, but really identifying different cultures and different uh contexts as having its own theological richness. So, for example, some of my Latina students said, I didn't realize that like what my Abuelita was doing in the kitchen was theology. But that's beautiful because I come from a spiritual tradition that I didn't think was academic.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think contextualizing that they have wisdom to bring, even if it isn't a traditional um, you know, Bible background or a, you know, um kind of academic history within theology.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's kind of to me the best of theological education when somebody sees what you know you're studying in the classroom, the histories and traditions of the church, the the the exegetical work, and goes, Oh, there's an application back here. Right. Right. There's there's I now I see what my elders were doing, right? Exactly. I want to talk a little bit as before as we start to wrap up, too, about uh this generation, because again, your program is very much on folks uh as you say, marginalized communities and groups and young people. And again, I think there's been uh in in some context, it's like, well, this is too tough or we can't get to these folks. Right. What is it? What do you think it takes to get somebody and and sustain somebody in theological education from you know a young person marginalized to marginalized community?
SPEAKER_03:Right. Well, I think the for I've worked with young people for decades, especially young Catholics, and what I love about these generations, including my own in millennial, uh, is that even though there's a distrust or a suspicion of institutions, whether that be religious institutions or governmental institutions, there still is a um there's a desire for authenticity. And so maybe there's a distrust for church capital C, but if you're authentic with them and are honest about the harms that have been done and also the the beauty, they will cultivate relationships with you. And so what I love is the deep relationships that I've made with these scholars uh as their formator, as the director. Um, and within that, there's it's such a privilege to walk alongside them. Um it's somebody said uh the executive director of Commonweal Magazine, uh, editor-in-chief, I think she said, you're not going to find young adults, you're not going to measure them in parish bulletins or you know, parish counts, but you will find them in measure their activity in relationships you have with them. And so the relationship is where you can find young people and connect with young people and being honest about who you are. They're not going to respect you just because you have a PhD, but because you are open and willing to learn new things and open to recognizing your where you need to grow.
SPEAKER_02:And tell me, understand where you're recruiting them from.
SPEAKER_03:So a lot of it is word of mouth, honestly. And also, um, we have a really great alumni connections within Chicagoland and across the United States, um, in justice groups and also in campus ministries that are doing it right, that are really creating a safe and welcoming space for students. It's a lot of word of mouth, it's a lot of partnerships. And so partnerships is what's been allowing everything to grow. And um through that word of mouth, people say, this is a place that I feel like I belong. Um, and that's really powerful, is just having them share that with their friends and then telling others.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I always appreciate when folks like when I hear this stuff, I think organic, but it's really cultivated.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah. It's it's about not just trying to network for immediate result, but having a partnership where it truly is mutual, where we help each other. And we have a really strong pipeline with a lot of organizations now.
SPEAKER_02:So I've heard you talk about authenticity. I've heard you talk about essentially seeing people who may not be seen by the church, uh, marginalized youth. I've heard you talk about uh helping, giving them a place, you know, through the the assistantships and giving them some voice into what's happening. I've I've heard um about this networking. Again, I won't call it organic, I'll call it cultivated. Yes. Um in terms of being intentional, um what's the reception been in the church?
SPEAKER_03:I think that people are excited to see so many young adults within the building, as you say. They're here on campus, they're in Chicago, and there it gives everybody, including myself, hope. I am Latina myself. I grew up in a predominantly white environment. I went to my theology degree um all the way to my PhD was predominantly white. And so this is giving me hope about that you can be who you needed to be when you were younger, or who you needed when you were younger. Um, and that even though I didn't see myself in a lot of the leadership, that hopefully they can change that for the generation after them.
SPEAKER_02:Karen, it's been a wonderful, wonderful conversation. Is there anything I didn't ask that I should have or anything to add?
SPEAKER_03:Um I don't think so. This was really amazing. Thanks for having me and for talk letting me talk about co-creating the Church of Tomorrow here in Chicago.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we'll put we'll put links to uh the webpage at CTU uh and and to what they're doing in the uh in the chat on the website, intrust.org slash podcast. Um, and Dr. Karen Ross, project director of CTU's uh living learning community, The Pathways for Tomorrow, uh project to co-create the Church of Tomorrow and a professor at CTU. Thanks so much for being with us.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.