In Trust Center
The In Trust Center podcast is hosted by Matt Hufman. Walk alongside theological school leaders and innovators as they explore issues relevant to North American seminaries, all while helping institutions live out their missions more intentionally. Find more at intrust.org/podcast.
In Trust Center
Ep. 100 - What decades of governance still have to teach us
What are the trends in governance – the new ways to make things work? First, look to the past. Governance expert Rebekah Basinger, Ed.D., reflects on what theological schools can learn by revisiting enduring principles of board leadership. Drawing on decades of experience, the conversation explores why good governance wisdom remains remarkably consistent – even as pressures from finances, regulation, and post-COVID realities intensify. Basinger names challenges such as executive turnover, shrinking and fatigued boards, and the lingering effects of “long COVID” on board culture and engagement. At the same time, she offers a hopeful vision: boards that reclaim their fiduciary role, invest in meaningful relationships, and approach governance as shared stewardship of mission. The episode invites board members and leaders alike to slow down, ask better questions, and rediscover why their work – and their presence – truly matters.
Hello and welcome to the Inter Center Podcast, where we connect with experts and innovators in theological education around topics important to theological school leaders. Thank you for joining us. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Good Governance Podcast. I'm Matt Huffman. This is episode number 100 of the Good Governance Podcast. It started a few years ago with uh uh Amy Kardash, Annie Glandin, uh of the Intrust Center. Uh, and the first guests were Rebecca Birch Basinger and David Rowe. And I am uh episode 99 was with David Rowe. Episode 100. This one, I am pleased to welcome the governance coach, expert, guru of governance. I'll say that, Rebecca, Dr. Rebecca Basinger. Welcome back to the program.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, thank you, Matt. And thank you for those kind words. And thank you for um that little trip down memory lane to say that David and I were the first guests. I oh my goodness, that is exciting.
SPEAKER_00:It is, and it's been uh the podcast has been quite a ride. But one of the things that I appreciate in this space is the wisdom. As we were talking before I hit the record button, there is a lot of knowledge out there. There are lots of trends, if you don't believe that. Look at LinkedIn, look at uh any number of uh popular magazines about what leadership is or isn't. And um what I find is, and what I found in the work, and we were talking about this as well, Rebecca, before we started, uh, there is uh great wisdom that has been accumulated over the years in governance. A lot of it isn't necessarily new or groundbreaking. It's a question of how you practice it.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, that's for sure. Um, I was mentioning that I had picked up a publication um that was written by Krista Klein, the first president of the Intrust. Well, right, it wasn't called the Intrust Center at that time, the of Intrust, on perspectives on the current status and emergence emerging policy issues for theological schools and seminaries, written in 1991. When I was reading it, I thought it could have been written today, which is both frightening and interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think it's this is one of the things I want to talk about today is there are often fads and trends in leadership, but with good governance, I think there are sound principles. The the context may look different, the situations may look different. But the the principles underlying those, and and you have, I didn't make this introduction, you've been the project director of the Wise Stewards Initiative, which is an Insight Trust Center project. You have uh been as part of the in-trust center's work uh for years as part of this, seen the wisdom of it. You have been a governance coach and expert. You've been certainly uh you've worked in universities, you've been a consultant, advancement particularly. None of this is new to you. Um, but I want to make sure our guests under our listeners understand uh what you're bringing is years of this. I mean, I find whenever when I entered the work uh several years ago, as I started looking at older literature, the things I would notice is, oh, that must have been the early 2000s because you could see somebody's picture, you could see the hairstyle, you could see the clothes or the trends who was in a position. But the principles were the same. I mean, I've read stuff from, as you say, Krista Klein's piece that you mentioned. It you go, this is still really pertinent today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it it is uh one of the one of our six essentials, essential one of exemplary board governance, reminds us that often we find the future in our past, or at least we need to be aware of the past. And it seems like, and I know I fall prey to this too, that we are such an awe historical people, despite the fact, as people of faith, we're deeply committed to a very ancient story, and a story that we say is unchanging and relevant for forever, and yet we pay so little attention to what has gone before us in really critical work, or what what was the status, what was going on in you know, even 1990 or 1970 or 1950, and particularly in the area that I spend my life thinking about in institutional governance. And to be sure, our institutions have gone through major changes, and particularly following COVID. But as you said, the principles of good governance are very much the same as what they were in years past, and the problem is we're not very good at following them. And we get ourselves into the same problems over and over and over again. And I'm not quite sure how to get us out of that, but that's what the Wise Stewards Initiative is about, is once again, you know, rolling out the six essentials, going through them over and over and over again with these schools. And at least for a time, you know, um, we we do see wonderful progress.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I want to talk, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:I want to talk about the framework that we're in today because I think there's something when you you you know you mentioned COVID, you've there there's financial pressure on lots of schools, there's now regulatory pressure. We've seen the government interacting with schools in very different ways. There's a bit of uh the sky is falling, and this isn't a chicken little story, there's very real pressure. Um, so I want to I want to stop on that point for a second because I think sometimes when institutions are under that pressure, the uh the mindset may be find the magic bullet, do the big thing, do the sweeping thing, do you know, you you gotta there are obviously fires you've got to put out. But do you think that framework that we hear, the narrative we hear about higher education, particularly theological higher education, kind of shapes the way people attend to governance rather than maybe following the principles or laying things out, we may be grasping the things that may not be um on solid foundation. What do you think?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, um you know, I I worry that we've become numb, um, you know, because things have always been difficult for theological education, for theological schools. We've always been the the most fragile um within the larger sphere of higher education. And you know, I hear boards all the time, if they do talk about the past, it's well, we've always lived hand to mouth, you know, and in there are these if in their histories, there's stories of heroic um presidents and donors and occasionally heroic boards that sort of pull the school through a really difficult time, and at least they lived um, you know, for another decade before another really difficult time. Yeah. And and instead of stopping and saying, is that God honoring? Is what are what are we modeling for our students? What are we modeling for faith leaders out there by accepting this kind of way of being? Instead of saying, if our missions are that important as we believe they are, why don't we have more support for them? Or why aren't we more um urgent in seeking that kind of support and putting our schools on our um solid footing? And I think one of the other things is, you know, when I look back at the old um studies and articles and you know, go through entrust magazines from the past and and everything, you know, I think, okay, we kind of thought we bottomed out there. Oh no, you know, then the next one, okay. I think we've bottomed out now. Oh no, you know, and so it just keeps getting worse and worse, but we don't seem to realize it. And I hate to be a downer because there are some really exciting things happening today within the wider sector, but I'm not quite sure that the boards are tuned into it or are even being included in the conversations that are bringing about the good things that are happening. And that is worrisome to me.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, let's let's talk about that for a second because you're absolutely right. There is there are pressures and changes in the field. At the same point, there has been any number of uh people trying innovative things, new collaborations. Uh Lily Endowment Inc. has has put uh significant resources and money and time into uh theological education. Um, but to your point, boards sometimes see a little seem a little divorced from that. And and I I want to talk about this because one of the things that we've noted over the years, uh Frank Umata, uh the executive director of ATS has has pointed this out. Amy Kardashi, president of the intrust center. You and I have talked about this, is the executive turnover. Is is both uh in the the CEO and the the chief academic officer has seen the tenure in office has shrunk over the years. And part of that is part of the concern there is the board is responsible for the institution for the mission of the institution. Um and if it's not involved in some of these things, that makes it rather difficult. There's more pressure, I would think, on a board when you are in, if it's four or five years is the average, five years is the average tenure of a CEO of an ATS accredited school. So boards are now in more search mode. They're now in in, and of course, you know, you search, you replace, you onboard, and then by the time the president is is uh or uh the chief leader is is uh about at their their prime, the exit starts to happen. So let's talk a little bit about a board and this point of the um what you think boards ought to be doing. I mean, I think that there's a a good point here for what boards may need to educate themselves on uh in terms of stewarding the mission.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Well, something that's been on my mind a lot, and I've actually begun to think of it as theological schools are suffering from long COVID, or particularly their boards, um, you know, that that the impact, it was such a jarring experience, and everybody pivoted to online and you know, a different way of being and a different way of connecting. And we have um in the Wise Stewards Initiative, when we bring the 10 co the 10 schools that are part of every cohort to our seminar in um Vancouver, Washington, it's not unusual to at least have one or two of those boards that this is literally the first time that these people have been together in person.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know, and that would have been unheard of before COVID. Now, trying to get board members back in the boardroom is really difficult. And that isolates the president or the chief executive, executive leader of the institution from who the group that should be his closest partners, his or her closest partners in um leading the institution. And so I I not only have that metaphor of long COVID, but also of the perfect storm, because what we see is boards becoming smaller. And it probably was that the boards were too big when they were 32 to 40, right, um, as they were when I first began working with Intrust. But I think, in my humble opinion, that 11, 10, or nine board members is way too small. And not only do we have smaller boards, as I said, they're tending to meet more online, and that means they're having shorter meetings. It's not unusual to have um a president or a board chair tell us, well, we meet for two hours. And I'm like, what? You meet for two hours, and then there's increasing dependence on that chief executive to set the agenda for the board, to recruit board members, to do all the sorts of things that we've always said are the board's primary responsibility is care of the mission, care of itself, and care of that executive leader. And if they kind of shift all of that in the direction of that executive leader, they're not as inclined to see themselves responsible for care of that leader. So I'm not it's not surprising that we're seeing that rapid turnover. But then there's just lack of any sense of continuity because every new leader who comes in, you know, is expected to set a new vision and have new ideas, and everybody sort of scurries in that direction. And then before too long, maybe they're off the door. And I mean, it it is it is really to me a very worrisome cycle that we find ourselves in, and how boards can reclaim the truth that we say over and over and over again in the wise stewards initiative. And that is that no seminary will be stronger in the long term than its board. I don't think very many people believe that anymore. And it's really hard to help a board that is meeting for two hours online, a little handful of people, and sitting there staring at the chief executive, saying, tell us what to do.
SPEAKER_00:Well, let me let me I don't want to make an advertisement for the Wise Stewards Initiative, but I'll make an advertisement for it. It's okay, please. It's such a great program. Uh, you know, there's a year-long cohort. Um the it is paid for uh by by uh our funders, you know, MJ Murdoch, uh in Vancouver, Washington, uh, the main sponsor of that. It's it's a wonderful program, but once a year as part of that cohort, everybody gets together in Vancouver, Washington. We've seen that, where there are boards sitting at tables who they've never met each other in person. So I find it interesting because you know you mentioned the long COVID, and for those of us who've tried to forget about COVID, the right long COVID is this uh was this uh idea that COVID had long-lasting symptoms. And I wonder with COVID because I've seen um I have seen some presidents or executives come in, change the board up, and then the president leaves in two or three years.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so you now you have a an issue because a board and a new president has to hire a new president, the mission is changed. There, there's a lot going on there, particularly as you say, and and to tie all this together, when we've seen boards come together in Vancouver for the first time, they find it a very rich experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Because now they're having meals together, they're running into each other in the lobby, and the and they're going out and they're they're building trust. Um, but what we haven't talked about, we've talked about executive turnover, we haven't talked about board turnover, we haven't talked about the symptoms of, as you put it, long COVID of people who are used to meeting on Zoom rather than in person. We haven't talked about uh how that is affecting the field. So explore this a little more with me because you have a board that um maybe dealing with these symptoms. What do you tell them?
SPEAKER_04:That's one of the things I've been thinking about because I don't want to be one of those people who is constantly saying, Well, we used to do it this way, and the way we used to do it was the best way. Even though you're right, when people do have the opportunity to get together in person, they're so happy. They love it, they have conversations that they just can't have online. But I want to be realistic and say, I really don't see us being able to get boards back in the boardroom or whatever room they're meeting in all the time, which means we need some education in how to run online meetings and how we need to rethink seat time. How much seat time and what counts as seat time in a new world. And I carry that from when I taught in um a higher education master's program that was completely online. And that was the first time I had to figure out what counted as seat time and how did I create those kinds of experiences for the students because I happen to live in Pennsylvania and the Pennsylvania Department of Education had a standard for how much seat time each class needed to have. Well, I'd like to set a standard for seat time for boards to do even what even a low bar of adequate board work. And then if you really want to do exemplary board work, that's going to be even more seat time. And that means that yes, you might have the full board together for two hours, but a whole Whole lot of work should have gone on between those meetings by different groups from within the board. We use we usually call them committees. And so I'm really spending a lot of my time right now thinking about how to create a curriculum for committee chairs in particular, and to which I invite board chairs to learn to run meetings in this new time and space that lets a board at least do adequate fiduciary work. But then also that important strategic work. And then if we can get them together, they're ready to do some really generative work. And if we can't get them together, figure out how we're going to make that happen in a virtual space. I mean, really? Well, I want to go, well, yes, we can. Because if they don't do it, who is? Because they are the legal fiduciaries of the institution. They are the ones who are to carry the memory, the DNA of the institution. The board was there in the beginning, and the board will be there till the end.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And you know, so the board is the only entity within the institution which isn't a person. And it, I know the faculty is a group of people, but it's still individuals pursuing their own particular place within the institution. No board member individually is pursuing their own agenda, their own job, in a sense, within it's a it's a group effort. And so we need to figure out how do we how do we do this? I don't know, Matt. Does that does that make any sense?
SPEAKER_00:Well, let's let's dive into this a little bit. I mean, I'm I'm reminded of uh an experience I had on a board years ago in which we had an executive who went a little sideways, and we were trying to figure out, well, you know, just to bring some, I won't say sideways, we had to bring some protocols and some procedures. And I realized at that point I was in the ladder of of leadership in the board, that I was a fiduciary. There was a uh, it was like a bit of cold water, and and my my engagement with that board got deeper. Um the work got deeper, my understanding of it got deeper, right? Because I realized that if this thing collapses, I'm I'm part of the responsibility uh parties, um, which was a wake up. Now, the the executive, of course, had issues because uh, you know, the question always is board role, executive role, who does what. Um you teach through that in the wise stewards, you've you've taught through that and written about that. But let's start by though digging into this about how the executive ought to look at this because I I've been on both sides of this as a board member and as an executive or the leadership team. Um, the Intrust Center's board, I should say, is amazing. They do work, committee work, they do they're they're exemplary. I mean, they do work between sessions. Uh Amy Kardashian president and the board uh just outstanding uh watching them work. But that's not always the case. And sometimes, I mean, I've been in places where, as you know, this, the the leadership team kind of holds their breath until the board leaves. You know, it's uh you put on the dog and pony show, you do that, and then they they go back and they have a nice dinner and they meet with students and everybody goes away. How should we be looking at this? Let's talk about this. I mean, the what what should the executive see of the board? I mean, there what what is their best interest? What is the the institution's best interest? And and give me some frameworks about how, you know, because we say, oh, you're a fiduciary or the executive, you're the executive. How should we approach this?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's you know, it's it's one of those relationships that's just full of paradox. And you know, because the board is the final authority, but is so separate from the institution, and so delegates well, really delegates running the institution to the chief executive and through the chief executive to that person's team, and then on to the and also to the faculty for the for the curriculum and the educational program. And so it's easy for um the board to forget what its responsibility is. And I recently did a webinar on talking about boards needing to understand, name, and own their power, right? And that power is a fearsome thing when you don't recognize that you have it, and it's easily misused if you don't really admit that you have it. But when a board um just steps back, it's only human that somebody's gonna fill that vacuum.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And um, people who take on leadership positions are people of ambition, of vision. They have good ideas and they've probably been sitting somewhere waiting for the chance to put those into practice. And I mean all of those in really good ways. I don't mean that in self-serving at all, you know, that that really these are people with wonderfully creative and great ideas, but it can create the the sense that this is theirs, this is their school. I often hear um board uh presidents refer to the board as my board. And I want to go, no, it's not your board, it's the institution's board, and you are the institution's president, it's not your school, you are the institution's president. I think we need to be careful about our pronouns because they really do communicate an attitude and um you know, to to realize what is my responsibility, what is your responsibility, and how do we work that out together for the good of the institution. But when we're not talking about that together constantly, I mean, I think the conversation has to come up all the time, and so that we remind each other of we're here to do this, you're here to do that, the faculty are here to do something other, but there are ways that all of our work intersects. And if it if any one of us falters or if one of us oversteps, it it gets very chaotic very fast, and nothing good happens in in the midst of chaos. So, you know, it just feels like we can't talk about it too much. But when everything is in a state of disruption, which our sector is, taking time to talk about the way we should work together can just feel like a waste of time. Wouldn't it be better just to get on with the work? Because there is so much coming at us, there is so much to be done. And most of our schools don't have a deep bench, so people are wearing multiple hats, and you know, it's just like no, you know, and so what happens is the board becomes a bother, and the faculty becomes an annoyance, and then the and then the executive burns out, and and we go, well, that's that's a waste of all all of everybody, of everybody's potential, of everybody's contribution. No, okay. Have I overstated? Have I paint painted too bleak a picture? But when you see when you see those working well, I mean, it is just beautiful saying to ought.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you've seen a lot of boards in action. I mean, you've been on a board, you've you've coached boards, you have seen um the tumult of the field. So when you look at this field, I mean, uh what I'm hearing you say that this is the observation. I whether it's good or bad, this is the observation. Is that uh tell me what you feel about the the state of boards right now in theological education?
SPEAKER_04:I think a lot of boards right now are very uncertain about what questions they can ask. Um what what they're actually supposed to be doing. Um, it was really fascinating. At uh I was just at a um with some boards and one of the questions or what I heard several board members say, you know, I don't even know why we're why we come.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:You know, do we do we matter? Do we matter? And at that moment, though, then the heads of the school started talking about what what it meant to them to have these people there. And it was like the room just lit up because suddenly they were they were reassured that you do matter. And here's here's what you you have done for me, for the school, for our students, for the denominations that we represent. And I thought, oh, if we could only do that all the time, you know, stop, just stop, just stop and say, let's talk. How are you feeling about your contribution that you're making? Talk to each other about it, and then listen to what the executive leader is saying about what it means to them to have a board that they know is caring for them, maybe asking hard questions of them, but caring for them, praying for them, advocating for them, and truly wanting to know how can we help? Not do your work, but how can we do our work better in a way so that it's more helpful to you? And that can be really hard to define, because I think our all of us, our tendency is, or those of us who volunteer a lot, we're helpers. And so we want to feel like, you know, give me something that I can really hold on to. And and so what we try to say in the Y Stewards initiative is if the board is caring for the mission, caring for itself, and caring for the executive leader, that's a really big job. And that is really important work. And then if the board is saying, now what do we need to know about other people's work so that we can be assured that the mission is going to go forward, that we have the finances to fund the mission, what are the questions that we need to ask? But I don't want a board that isn't taking care of itself trying to ask hard questions. I won't, I won't try to put that on some poor beleaguered um executive officer to have this board that doesn't know enough about what it's asking about to ask good questions. Right. So it's up to the board to do that too. But first, it has to be strong in and of itself. And it really needs to understand the mission, the story, you know, all of that. So boards need to be willing to put in the time, but to understand that sometimes what they're doing may be hard for them to see that it's making a difference because it's not the kind of thing that is easily quantifiable. It's often much more qualitative. And we know that that's that's hard to that's hard to measure. Um it takes some talking and again, asking.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think there's a there's a difficult thing in all this because sometimes when people are invited to boards, they represent something. You know, in in in theological education, it's a leader of the religious denomination, it's a funder, you know, it may be a big donor, it may be somebody who is is adept at fundraising. Um, I've heard any number of people say, well, I was put on the board because they think I can raise money. And um I heard somebody, a conversation I had with somebody who's been on the board of a couple of schools uh over time, or or same school twice, I forget what it was, but the person said the first time I thought I was here just for this little slice, because I'm good at X and I represent this. And then the person said, This time I realize, no, I'm there as a board member. There's this idea of I'm there as a part of the whole. I mean, I might not be the finance expert, but I have a responsibility. You know, it's that old story about the the king who goes out to see somebody to see a new chapel or a church being built. And he asks the one person and they're like, Well, what you know, what do you do? And he says, I I cut stone, the next person, well, I put cement up, and the next guy is just you know carrying some wood or something. And he says, What do you do? He says, I'm building the church. There's this attitude in it that I think takes um the executive to understand it. You know, the the importance of a board. A board can be a great help, it's not just a few time a year thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It takes example of the board to say, hey, we are this is we're stewards of this. Um, and then it takes you mentioned the faculty, faculty and staff, it takes their role to say we have our own role at this piece. So I think as as we start to uh to close, maybe some conversation here about how we're approaching board governance, particularly. Um, I do love that analogy of long COVID, of the the remnants of the ways I think that we had to work and maybe that we didn't think about whether we're working. So some thoughts about this, Rebecca, about what you're seeing is as the way people are approaching board work or could approach board work, the way maybe uh we should be dealing with this. You talked about conversation. Um, you know, this might be board education, regular conversation, who we are, what we do.
SPEAKER_04:Well, one of the things that we say in the six essentials, um, number six is about assessment and evaluation and planning. And there we talk about how the board is to model that. And when we say that, you know, everybody sort of thinks of these big, you know, uh huge assessment kind of things. And I go, no, it can be as simple at the end of every board meeting, simply stepping back and saying, how did the decisions we made today help advance the mission of the institution? And what did they do to secure our financial future? And just set, you know, whoever's asking the question, probably the board chair, then be quiet and wait for some voices to speak. So it calls us back into why are we here and did we do that? Then also saying, How do you yourself feel that you contributed to that, and maybe turn to the person next to you and say that. So it makes it both how did we as a group, but also a little bit of self-assessment for each board member, but talking talking with another um board member about that. I think another way um to to maybe help us feel as board members that we really are part of the mission is to ask what does service on this board mean for you personally and particularly to your own faith walk, your faith commitment, however, you talk about that. And I just had a precious conversation this last week with a board chair about that. Um, because I feel strongly that every person who serves on a seminary board should leave that board service more committed to their faith, whatever strand of Christianity or Judaism or whatever their faith is, that they go away a better Christian, a better Jewish believer, um, you know, whatever they are, that they know more about what they believe. And we talked a bit about how can that happen in the boardroom and how do we make that link that to the mission? Because if I myself am not growing in the direction that we say our mission is meant to take our students. And the promise that we've made to the supporters that we have, how can I even know if that's happening? If I myself am not growing in those directions. So I think that's another piece that occasionally we should let people talk about that and have that be a part of our story together as a board. And it models again, I think, to those out there. It also helps us create our own stories that we take then back to the constituents with whom we're relating to say, you know, really exciting things are happening, but I want to tell you something that's happening just for me. And this could happen for you if you also engaged with the seminary. So there's you know all these, all these different kinds of ways. Back to that representative board member that you mentioned, you know, those. Yeah. Um one of the things I always say, I don't care how you got here, you're here. And you are a full board member. And you know, that that sometimes they kind of set back in their chair and go, well, no, I'm not. You know, I'm ex officio. And I said, Well, you have a voice, right? And anybody who has a voice can make an impact. You know, I always say, I don't need a void, uh a vote if you give me a voice, right? Because that carries a lot of weight. And and really they need to understand how much weight their voice carries and how it can sway a voice, a vote. And so really helping um everybody understand if you're the alumni, if you were sent there by the alumni body, if you were sent there by the student body, you're not here as sort of the watchdog or you know, the advocate. You're here as a member of the board. You are now a fiduciary of this board. And um, you may not be a full one because you don't actually have a vote, but you're in the room and and you and you have a powerful voice. So just really trying to help people understand over and over and over again that their work matters very, very much. And helping executive leaders understand that it's not a zero-sum game. If if the board matters, that doesn't take away some of how much you matter. Um, there's plenty of uh work to be done. There's plenty of um, I don't know what to go around. You know, there's uh we just don't have to worry that um we can't all matter. We all matter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I appreciate that. That's uh I think a good way to close is um particularly on this hundredth episode, as as we look at what we've learned and and the wisdom in the room. You know, the wisdom that you bring here, Rebecca, is is one of the things I appreciate is that every member of the board is important because it the board comes out of many, it's really e-pluurosunum, out of many one and becomes a singular entity that carries the mission forward. Uh I love the idea that you know people just need to be in conversation about these things, even in the midst of uh all the crisis and things. If I really believe if a board takes care of itself, other things fall into place.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And we are learning new ways to do that, and I think we've got to be even more intentional about how we're doing that. And that's my new cutting edge. So after all these years, I feel like I'm still learning something new. And I hope that every board member feels as energized that they're still learning something new at the end of nine years, 12 years, whatever their terms are, that they're still excited and still learning and still contributing.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there's a there's a lot more to come. The Wise Stewards Initiative is a fantastic program uh that Rebecca is the project director of. I will post a link there. The governance initiative of the Intrust Center is doing some uh remarkable work. Uh, more of that will be coming. Um, and I would really encourage folks. It'll be I will post links. So encourage folks to go to intrust.org slash podcast, where there will be this episode. There will be links to it. Um, and to continue to watch Rebecca. I know we will have more conversations. I'm looking forward to those. Thanks so much. There's so much wisdom in here to unpack. I so much uh greatly appreciate you sharing that with us.
SPEAKER_04:Well, thank you for inviting me, Matt. It's always a delight to talk with you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Intrust Center's Good Governance Podcast. For more information about this podcast, other episodes, and additional resources, visit intrust.org.