Street Farbrengen #130: Limits and potential? The modern plight of Idealism

During the 'Three Weeks',  instead of dwelling only on the destruction of the 

Beis Hamikdash, the trauma of the destruction of the Temple and a nation's 

dispersion ( and consequent persecution) in Chabad we emphasize 

influencing the future -  through the study the laws of the future Beis 

Hamikdash.

But if we're honest, doesn't that sometimes feel... a little naive?

The older one is, the easier it is to believe in suffering than in redemption. We may trust disappointment much more than possibility. 

We become experts at explaining why things won't change.

So what is the Rebbe asking of us? Blind optimism? Religious idealism?

Or is he challenging something much deeper—our definition of what is natural?

In this week's Street Farbrengen, we explore a surprising question:

Is Geulah -  the dream... or is it ..... natural?

Transcript

Three Weeks And Building Mindset

SPEAKER_02 0:00

In Chabad the three weeks are about bringing the Besamkdash. Right? We learn the halakhas of the Besamdash. It's about it's not a a real focus on the trauma of the past but the promise of the future. And I was thinking and I asked myself, how much of that promise is naive idealism?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Okay, so just to be clear, Ruven, you're you're calling the naivete idealism the experience that you are going to have that you're learning for the purposes of the future? Based

Is Hope Just Naive Idealism

SPEAKER_00 1:21

on Mikdash.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I'm asking an emotional question. What am I feeling when I do the learning of the th of the base of a chirachas? What am I feeling? What am I margish? Not why am I doing it? Because I have cabalas oil as like most people want to call cabalas oil to be, and I follow what the Rebbe said. I'm not asking that. I'm asking, you know, the old story with the Khafitzhaim that he used to carry, he had a suitcase in his in his house packed. So when Mashiach comes, he'll be able to have everything already packed. Okay, so I obviously the average dude is not on that level, right? But you don't have to so let's even make it the question even a little different. Not that whether Meshiach and the Basim English will materialize. Do I feel that I have the power to make it materialize? Or is that naive idealism that the Rebbe sp uh uh expounds?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Well, are you claiming what the Rebbe is saying is I'm asking a question to you as a person.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

I'm not asking philosophical questions. I'm asking you Do I feel that?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Do I feel that power that I have that the Rebbe goes and he quotes the scales like the Rambam says? No, most of the time I don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Okay, so what I'm saying to you, that's what it means that if you reflect on it for a second, to feel any different would be sensing that it's naive. Idealism. The adult of 50 years old and sees the young 20-year-olds who think that they're going to change the world, and he looks back and he says, Yeah, yeah, I used to think like that. They're naive. They'll learn. I can guarantee you, mister, since you are a Balchuva, that your parents thought that way about you. Oh, yeah. You'll find out when you become from that it's not so oi-oy-oy fantastic as you think it is. Yeah. Okay. And you're not gonna have this godly experience like you think it is. Like you thought you maybe whatever you thought. And you know what? To a certain degree, they're correct. Yeah. But it doesn't still bother you enough to drop it. Right. Okay. So you have this naive, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the inner world of your heart and your stomach and your soul. I'm not talking about philosophy. I'm not talking about whether the Rebbe's right. Obviously, the Rebbe's right. And more than that, I can argue and say that the Rebbe told us this means that we sh can feel that way. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. So, you know, when you think about it just as a kind of like a branch of that, do you sense in whatever amounts you've learned that from the times of the Balshemtiv, or maybe not so much the Balshemtiv, from the times of the Magad to the times of the Rebbe, Mashiach was front and center?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I mean, not like the Rebbe, but Okay, so the answer is no.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Is that because the Rebbe is excuse the the language, some weird Rebbe that came along and was different? No. So what's the reason why he comes along and espouses that?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Well, because he saw it.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Fine, he saw it.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

No, but I'm saying he saw how the world was, he saw where the world was holding, and he was able to speak from a place.

The Rebbe’s Vision Lives In Us

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Well, you know what? I'm gonna make an epicursis statement on our conversation. You know what? Koyachnisson, the Rebbe said, I was naive.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, I don't like that statement.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, of course you don't like that statement. So you're saying he saw it? You're missing the major point. He saw it in us, not that he saw it in the trees and in the in the sun and the moon.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Could have been both.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

No.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Why?

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Because we're the ones who bring it. He's the one who's telling us you do this, you do this, you're gonna do this, we're gonna bring Mushiach, and even Kernisan says admasai, etc. I hear your point. All of Khassid is saying that you disagree with me?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yes, I think he saw it in the trees also.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Sorry, but that's not the point.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

That is the point. That's not the point.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

The point is in you and me. Of course, he saw it in both. Okay, fine. What does it give to you that he saw it in?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Because there's one that's looking at the person's potential, and then there's one that's actually looking at reality around himself and seeing where we're holding. So you what? And seeing where we're holding.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

So so again, so are you saying there's a distance between those two?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

So then what are you saying? I'm not sure what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I'm just giving you put down the fact that the the world may look different, also to the world.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

No, I'm not saying the world's looking different. I'm saying that's irrelevant. I'm saying that the rep is yes, it is, and I'll tell you why. That was one of the arguments, big arguments after Nun Bass with all the mices that happened. It was the representative saw it, but it wasn't our world.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, but that's ridiculous. And why is it ridiculous?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

You may think it's ridiculous, and you may say it's ridiculous, and you may prove that it's ridiculous. And there were a lot of people who felt that way.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

We don't have to discuss that unless that's the topic you're interested in discussing. But I think it is relevant to understand what you're saying is the the the You're saying the Rebbe you you made a ridiculous claim.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

The Rebbe was saying that I was naive in Koagni San. And that's yeah. I'm saying that that was a ri that was an intense, ridiculous statement.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

No, it's not an intense, ridiculous statement. Because you know what? That's how we look at how the Rebbe said it. That may be the case. Okay, fine. I don't have to I don't speak for the Rebbe's feelings and the Rebbe's state. But all I'm saying to you is that if you're gonna go and say that what's the we were talking about, what's the difference between this Rebbe and before? And Mashiach was not so much front and center. And I'm what I want to say to you is it's not so much front and center because we are different. Not because the Rebbe is different, the Rebbe comes along and matches what his generation is all about. Okay, now the question is does that feel naive? Do we for our reception of it, do we feel it's naive?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Well, going back to what we spoke about last time, do you feel, or actually it wasn't last time, but in the previously, do we do you feel a need to um defend the Rebbe? Do you feel a need to be able to do that? No, I'm not talking about defending the Rebbe. No, I'm I'm I'm explaining that do you feel a need to uh bring everything down into Seychall and that everything needs to make sense, you know, because what it sounds like you're saying now is that would take it out of naivety, because now you can explain.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

No, I don't understand how you just said that. I'm telling you how do you feel? I I mis said it right from the start. I'm not asking about your intellectual constructs. I got it. I got it. Okay, what's that gotta do with making sense?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Because that's what you do when you're uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

When you're uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah, when you're uncomfortable with how you're feeling, you try to bring it into intellectual.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

How do we jump to uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

If you are telling me that you feel like you're naive or idealistic when you're learning Besabakira in the three weeks.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I asked that question. I didn't say I did not say I felt uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

I think it will cause a sense of uncomfortability if you realize that. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Why?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Because nobody wants to be naive or idealistic, they want to be amistic. The teenager is happy to be naive in the No, it's not that they fight it tooth and nail. I'm not feeling idealistic. I know what the truth is. You're the one who's not. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

It's not the shot I feel uncomfortable. That's not what happens with people. What happens with people is they check out.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

That's

When Doubt Makes Us Check Out

SPEAKER_00 10:23

one of the things that happens with uncomfortability. You check out. Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

I don't care whatever you're, I don't know what are you, the psychology and the I check out. I'm if I feel that this is kind of not up to my expectations and it's only naivete, I check out. I check out uh every morning when I don't doven like a mensch. I check out every time I don't have focus on what I'm doing. I'm checking out of myself. I check out when I laugh at somebody who thinks the mashir's coming. I check out in a lot of different ways. Yeah, we check out. And that's because we think it's naive. We know it's true in and of itself, but it's naive. I have that experience every single day in any kind of chabad expression when I speak to people face, you know, one-to-one in the show that I go to. Why? Because people think Babich in general is naive. They're naive that they're gonna go to a place and turn the world around. They're naive that they're gonna go now, okay. Now they can't say they're naive for making balt shuvas because we have a track record of some sort. But I can tell you something, let's say, more down-to-earth for today. The average schlich, for example, on campus, I don't know if they're gonna like this, would probably say it's naive to think that the average student could go to yeshiva. Does the rebba want them to go to Shiva? Yeah, but it's changed, things are different. It's ridiculous, by the way. You're saying it's ridiculous. We're not talking about theories.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I got it. Well, they they're interrelated because the the person who is saying that, the Shlia who is saying that, yeah, is then saying that the Rebbe is not correct here or that things change. No, they won't say that. I know they won't advertise okay, but they'll say the Rebbe would agree with them.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

It's a fact of life, whatever. However, they construct it, I don't care how they construct it. And it's not so you think it's it's there, they have a problem now with the Rebbe. That's their feeling level. The feeling level is that it's naive of me to think that I'm gonna go and turn around these people. We all know they need a job, and we all know this, and we all know whatever it is.

Where Chabad Gets Called Naive

SPEAKER_02 12:54

And I'm gonna remember, I mean, I don't like to think about it. But when in Top Shundonal and Topshundan base, when there's literally the streets were were rolling with what was going on in reaction to coming out of 770, both in Lobavich and out of Lobavich. And and out of Lubavitch, they were listening in, just like in Argentina today, they're listening at the FIFA soccer games. It was a big thing to watch. And I think a lot of people thought it was naivete. And when the when it came to a no question, when it came to after Khafzai and Adar, the Nayativa Naivete quotient went way up the scale. Right? And then they were proven right. So I don't like to harp on this part of the story, but it's just indicative of and I'm not judging it, I'm saying where I'm at I'm what?

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Why can't you judge it? What do you mean you're judging it?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

I didn't say I can't. You're talking to me. I didn't say I can't. I'm saying I'm not judging it because that's not where I'm going with this. I'm talking about I get the naivete. The question is how do you walk around it? How do you go through it? How do you make it that it's real? And uh to a large degree I I I think I've told you this. You know. Let's f for our conversation we're talking about the base of Magdash being rebuilt. Right? The only person so far that I really think in our time and generation that was convinced that it was people are trying to rebuild it was Tucker Carlson. Right? So because he says the Lababachers really believe it. So at least he at least he felt that we really believe it. So we know it's our expressed, and there are people obviously who really live it. But the question is, am I on the side thinking they're naive? So I've I I've detected a different nuance about this whole trauma thing that's around a lot.

Galus As Trauma And Healing

SPEAKER_02 15:25

And the Base of Make dish destruction was traumatic, wasn't it? And and Spain was traumatic, and Holocaust was traumatic. And as you uh first time we ever spoke at Street for Bragen, you said Gimel Thomas was traumatic. So there is trauma. And I I started hearing now people talking about their healing of trauma. And the healing was that they finally they were able to embrace who they were, they were able to embrace their true authentic self, and trauma is it's keeps you from feeling that true authentic self. Isn't that true what Hassul says about Gallus and Gaula?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Okay. So what do we have to do? What do we have to accept and embrace to move from a place of gallus to ghoula? It's not the shot we can, because then you didn't really embrace it. Or we should, that's for sure not. Or we must do in order to, because that's also not embracing that who our authentic self is.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah. So it's the Aleph in Tagola. Which is it's the Alufish'olam, it's seeing Hashem in Golas.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Okay, going back to my question about the Rebbe versus not the question, but the the difference between the Rebbe and the previous years and the center stage of Mashiach, all of Chasidis talks about that.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

So then what was the kiddish? Is there a kiddish that the Rebbe put on the table?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Of course. Because first of all, the emphasis, but then also the the the charge that this is what is available now to It wasn't available before? Not like it was now. Now everything has been completed. Now the beer is done, now the world is ready, now everything is.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

How many years have you so let's let's really figure out what I'm what I'm struggling with. How many years have you known that sentence? A number. A number. Five? Sure. Okay, five years. What would it mean to embrace it? Not to wear like a flag on your lapel that says it.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

That you live your life with No, emotionally. Yeah, with a minukas and avish, with an emotional calmness that Hashem is right here with you.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Embraced No the no that all the no, I'm talking about all the birurim are done.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

It would be that would be the experience, calmness?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah. Everything is now in a state of being done for you.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Something done for you? Yeah. What's that mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

That you look at the world as now ready to embrace the Aleph and Tagola. You look at the world that it's ready to be embraced. And you're yourself, yourself. You look at you as well. You don't look at yourself.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

You feel you're embracing.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah. You're authentic, you're real, you're present with Hashem in your life.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Okay. And I wonder for how many people that sentence itself sounds naive.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I'm sure for most people, actually, I can't speak for most people, I don't know. But when I've said it before, I've gotten a lot of eye rolls. So that's why I would say most. But yeah, and and again, what's the difference? I think we said it before, but you look at the 20-year-old, and the older person rolls their eyes and says, Oh, you're gonna find out that all of your beautiful ideas you're gonna get smacked in the face, and then all those ideas are gonna run out the window, even though they're true. But now to apply them, now to experience them, now to hold on to them is you know uh fantasy.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Right. So it's so you don't struggle with that.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Of course I struggle with that, but I'm saying the that's the job is that after you've had those challenging experiences in your life, to actually say, yeah, it doesn't say that the world is gonna change. It's still the gullus matzev, but now with an elephant.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Oh, I see. So you're saying the naivete that's off the table because we're gonna tell you the world's not gonna change?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Not that the world's not gonna change, but that you're gonna you're gonna understand its full breadth of what that is.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

So you wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You can't say that in our conversation because we're talking about emotionally embracing, and you're giving me now you're gonna understand.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

You're gonna feel it. Well, you're gonna feel it in that you're gonna feel it.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

But I don't feel it right now. Therefore, to say that I do would be lying. Yeah. Okay. So how do I bridge to the next step?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

How do you bridge to actually feel it?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah, you're telling me the way you've just laid it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah.

Practices To Feel Geulah Now

SPEAKER_00 21:07

It's uh it's an avoida. It's uh start out with being misboinen on it and really actually misboined on what? First of all, misboinen to make sure you're clear about what it says and the idea, but then to see if you could take a piece of your life and have that experience be the reality.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Have that experience.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Um experience that you're picking that you are trying to infuse that Aleph into Gola.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

I'm asking you how to embrace.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

I just said. Which is take an experience or a piece of your life and misboin in on this idea and how it applies, and try to feel it. Experience it. Do what you can.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I know, but you're saying it, but you're not telling you're not. So what do you think? Can you let me ask you a question? If we're gonna comp if we're gonna compare gullus to tr uh to trauma, yeah, would you have a patient in front of you who's suffering from trauma and saying, take a piece of your life and feel it without trauma? Will they be able to mcobble that?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

If you explain to them what that means.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Well, how would you explain to them?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

If you want to go into trauma, that's well that I'm giving that so then you calm you you do somatic healing. You do there's uh twenty different types of ways to calm your nervous system in order that you shouldn't feel like you're in a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn position, and you should be able to feel safe in your current environment and be able to breathe and then be able to recall those experiences and not have that same reaction. This is again, you go through a method by which you go into an experience of you know, non-trauma.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Okay, and what's the equivalent you're saying for us?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

You must blend in on the actual idea of Aleph and Tagola, and then you could take an experience or time or place or something that you're doing, like you're Davening or you're learning, or something that you're doing in your life, and you try to infuse that Aleph and Tagola into it.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Is it trying the embrace?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

No, the feeling is the embrace.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

So I'm ha I'm asking how you have that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

You don't you don't force that feeling, you have it by doing what I just said. I don't know if I'm if I'm not being clear, Ruvain, what's your suggestion?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

No, I don't have one.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Okay, well, this is my suggestion.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I I'm tr I'm trying to understand what it means that a person has this deep psychological trauma, and all of a sudden, I'm not saying it's not happening, and in a flash, after a long time of hard work, probably, in a flash they become the other side of the storm.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, because they've calmed their nervous system. So what's the equivalent for us that we're uncommon? Unsafe.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

That's how you do it. What's the equivalent in Gullus and Goola? That I'm safe here?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

That you that you have Hashem here right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

That I'm safe.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

No, you you just equated safe. That's the trauma thing. You said what's the equivalent in the Alephant Agola? You said you're calm, but you said you're calm. Yeah, that's a feeling of safety too, sure. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Well, what's the minucha?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah, that Hashem is with you right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Well, it's kind of interesting since we're in the most unsafe time in the last 50 years.

unknown 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

So maybe I'm being naive.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

You know, I remember when um when the riots happened in Crown Heights.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

There were a lot of people who wanted to go to war. And the Rebbe said no.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Um And then there was all these bridge makers afterwards who wanted to extend their hand to the outside community. A lot of people thought that was naive.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

Um Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I kinda hear that um it was naive of me to think that I would get to the answer. I don't know how this particularly applies to what your learning and feeling the Because every time you learn and you don't make it integrated in your personality, in your heart, and it doesn't do especially because it is, and it doesn't do anything for you, then the whole relationship with you the Mimer is the Mimer itself is naive. At least with me sitting in front of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I I wasn't even referring to the Mimer, I was referring to the three weeks about that. But yeah, you're saying it's listen.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I I happen to think if you believe if you believe there's an equation between gallus and trauma, then if you take the Litfisher approach, they're just soaking in their trauma, and they're being very authentic that we're living in traumatized times. And that's what they actually expect in a very subtle way, but that's what they expect. And the Rebbe comes along and upsets the whole concept five years after the Holocaust and says, We're at Mashiach. So and at points where it became so um in a feeling way that it was true it was real, people got a little nervous. And they maybe calmed down in there screaming and yelling that it was naive. So um and you know you're going to take a very simple Jewish Hasidic concept. You just said it without saying it. You're safe. God is gonna take care of you.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

You feel that every morning?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

It's definitely an avoida.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

That doesn't answer the question.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I didn't ask you how do you feel it definitely much answers the question. No. If it's not an avoida, then you would be able to do it, and it's nothing that big a deal.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

But yeah, a vota means you can't do it?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

No, avoiding means that it's work, that it's put in effort. Because it's not natural, because you don't normally feel it. It's not natural for your for your experience in the world.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

So stop right there. Because that's the the pivot point. When you're willing to say to yourself and to feel now, we maybe we have to talk how to get to that feeling, that it is natural to be there. Think about it. The guy says, I've been in trauma for X and real trauma. I'm not saying that he wasn't or isn't whoever this fictitious guy is. So he was in trauma. He went through whatever he went through, and now came out the other side. And he's feeling the birds are singing, the sun is out, and he's embraced what? The place of no trauma.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Right?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Is there is it a is it goes, does it go from white to gray to black, or does it go from white to black? Or black to white? It's a process. No, but I'm talking about when it happens.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah, then it's then it's a flip. I mean, once it's And what is the flip?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

I'm willing to drop the feeling of that other side of the road that looks to me like naive is not naive. I'm putting it in in our context of our conversation. Yeah. But the way you said it was that it's natural. So those people who did say that the Rebbe saw in his world what he saw, and you know, this is after Khapsain Adder, and you know, our world was different, and he didn't he saw our world as his world, and so on and so forth. Yeah. Um, they want to say that. They're saying it's not natural. For him, it was natural, but for us it's not natural. Right?

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

So what does it take? Think about it. What does it take to feel that it's natural, let's say, to feel the joy of God?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Well, I can tell you that the I mean the first step is just like we've always talked about here, is knowing yourself, being comfortable with yourself, being authentic with yourself. Because then you're gonna already be able to withstand the judgment from the outside when people look at you and think that you're being idealistic or naive.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Well, that you're only gonna go there because you think it is. Because if you don't, if you drop it, you don't give a damn what anybody else thinks.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

That's what I'm but I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

No, but you're not dropping their thoughts. You have to drop your own thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

I understand, but I'm saying you could only do that when you're settled with yourself, when you know who you are, when you know what you're able to do. Again, all No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Know what you're able to do. Let's go back to the question. I don't I don't hear it that way. What does it take for me to feel that it's natural? Let's say to have the Aleph and Gula, as you call that, that it's natural. Not that it's unnatural, but I'll get there. Because the person, what I'm suggesting is the person, and I don't know if I'm right, the person who goes from trauma to untrauma is being now natural in their state of untrauma. They had the history before, it didn't go away. So now it's for them natural to be the other side of the coin. Do we need to experience it before it becomes natural? By definition, that means it's not natural, just means because the experience is happening. So it's forcing you. So what could I what could I focus on to make it feel that the quest, the desire, the headspace of Gula is natural? When I sit down, whether it's learning a Maima or doing the Hilchaspace of Bakira, what does it take to make it feel natural? That's what I'm asking. Is it is it focusing on the unnatural part of the story? On the trauma part? Is it maybe hearing with a different way of hearing what the Torah says is the natural?

What “Natural” Faith Means

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Because the Torah says it. That's all Chasid says. It's all natural for you.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Um So maybe in a subtle way we can maybe we can say like this If I approach a Mimur Chasidis that what Chasidis is saying to me is talking about a different me that I have to get to, I'm still in my drama. If I learn the Mimur and I approach it, that Chasidis is telling me who I am, am I willing to accept that?

SPEAKER_04 34:13

Do I trust the Rebbe enough that would the way he sees me is the way I am?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Could you feel that question? Can you feel it? Not ask it. I could feel the question. Yeah, you could feel where it could go for a second, but it's always gonna kick in the the doubting Thomas, right? But that's so it comes down to natural. What do we think is natural? The Rebbe sa says this a lot, and the Rebbe stresses it very frequently, that I mean the whole I mean the whole idea of Raoko Basu Yacht of that all flesh will see God, and yet oil and kimenhagun, the world is not going to be any different, is a big problem, right? There's a lot of sikhs on it. But he ends up answering that godliness in the world is natural. Yeah. For the world. Not for God. Obviously the Abishta has no gvull. He's right here already. So maybe we don't have to get very philosophical. I don't like the word philosophical. We don't have to go stretch out too far. Um what is something that you're trying to accomplish in yourself that you don't think is natural? That you think it's I have to be different to get there. I'm not talking now a lacus and all this good stuff. I'm talking about simple. Whether it's work, whether it's paying the bills.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Can you think of one that's doesn't feel natural, but you have to do it anyways.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Dominating.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

No, that's religious.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I know, but I'm saying that is really the thing that comes up where it's just like this could be uh experience of connecting to a Shem and feeling that connection.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

It seems No, that's called truth or not. I'm talking about whether you feeling it is natural.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

I'm saying that it should be natural.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Should be?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah.

unknown 36:46

It's not.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

No, you're not hearing what the word natural here means. Not that it should be natural. It is natural.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yeah, I'm I'm saying it is natural to connect with your creator. No, I'm not even saying that way.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

What do you mean? Well, you mean connect to go connect?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Or be connected.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Go connect. No, go connected.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

You don't have to feel natural to go connect. It doesn't have to feel natural to go to the gym because you're pushing yourself to go. I'm not talking on that level of natural. Okay, what's an example? I'm not talking about the effort level. So what what's it would be it would be natural would be I embrace the fact, and I think about it, but I embrace the fact that it's totally 100,000 percent natural for me to stand with a sitter and feel God. That's natural. Not feeling is unnatural. Yeah. Okay. Trauma is not natural. That's what trauma is by definition, right? Sure. And what's the opposite of trauma? Whatever. Healing is natural. Could I embrace that in my heart?

SPEAKER_04 38:10

And if I do, how can I definitely do it differently?

Marching Orders And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_02 38:20

So maybe we could say that the base Hilgas Baze Bahira, learning the laws of the Besamigdash, that we're gonna step up the plate and do it for three weeks. The Rebbe was actually asking us that that should feel natural, that that's what we're all about.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Okay. So we have our marching order.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Sorry, Kiyun, but um that's a shame. We'll be fine and good.