Ep. 68 A Biblical Perspective on Polygamy in America#relationships #culture

Our latest episode delves into the heart of this evolution, where tax codes and parental rights are just the tip of the iceberg. The conversation takes a turn when we peel back the curtain on the often conflated concepts of polyamory and polygamy.  #joerogan #bretweinstein

Biblical passages hint at the age-old presence of such practices. We don't just stop at the theory; we also confront the real-world legal hurdles that people in these relationships face, creating a dialogue that's as informative as it is provocative.

And just when you think you've heard it all, we introduce you to polyandry – a world where one woman balances the hearts of multiple husbands. This episode isn't just a listen; it's a leap into a future where the definition of relationships is as diverse as the individuals within them. 

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Chapters

• 0:19 The Shift in Modern Relationship Dynamics
• 9:00 Exploring Polygamy and Polyamory in Society
• 16:49 Changing Social Views on Relationships
• 26:36 Exploring Polyandry in Podcast Episode

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:19

Parental discretion is advised. And me and Marcus came home like earlier or something, and then Alec also came home from work much earlier than expected, so we ran into each other and then we were trying to have like a date. I just at a certain point was like Alec, would you mind leaving so me and Marcus can have sex? And he was like yeah, and he like got up and left and you guys were okay with that. Yeah, I don't actually really have Alec, you know what I mean. So, like I've been with Alec for a very long time, I have this great relationship with him, but there was this lacking area that just made me sad that I wasn't able to connect with him on race. I don't have to like force Alec to like know everything about my culture. I can get that from somebody else and we, with each of them, yeah Well, you get to like tap into different areas that you don't necessarily have as much access to with one person. You can tap into it with multiple people.

Speaker 1: 1:07

I think people choose multiple relationships because they feel trapped, and the question I have for you is why do people need to have more than one intimate relationship? Hey, my name is Lionel. Thank you for tuning into the Words for Change podcast. If you are a new listener, welcome. I'm glad you're here. Hey, we're having a really, really important conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:29

That I think is important because it bleeds into or informs us into how the American social norms as it relates to relationships are changing and shifting. It matters to you, it matters to me because research is showing that, particularly those who are millennials, that relationships dynamics are changing and how people engage in intimate relationships are shifting and changing, and people are not engaging in these relationships simply because or traditional forms of relationships, because that's what conventional wisdom says I don't know if you listen to that clip, but it is clear to you simply because or traditional forms of relationships, because that's what conventional wisdom says. I don't know if you listen to that clip, but it is clear to you, it's clear to me, that there is a huge shift in how relationships are functioning in the American life and true to form, like the video that I put out on YouTube. I want you to go watch it Chaps Talk. I'm sorry, sorry, that's my actual website, but it's chap. It's words for change podcast. I wanted to encourage you to go and check out that podcast, that video on YouTube that deals with this subject, and I'm going to put out another video. But but hey, listen, this concept or this issue I don't know if you listen to that clip clearly, but here you have a young lady with two individuals One of the guys is black, the other partner is white and they're in a polyamorous relationship. This is something that this kind of relationship structure is impacting our daily lives, is impacting tax structures and benefits, is impacting health insurance, is impacting parental rights, is impacting inherent laws, and how we approach this subject and topic, how we understand the practical implications and how these affect the laws that are being made in our communities and in our nation, makes this a relevant topic. It's not that distant, I guarantee you. There are people in your community right now who are dealing with this topic. Okay, I'm getting ready to preach now. There are people in your community who are thinking and considering or practicing these relationships. As a matter of fact, hey, there may be some of my listeners, you out there who, hey, maybe you're in a polygamous relationship. Maybe you believe in polyamory and I'll explain the difference between the two coming up.

Speaker 1: 3:53

We're going to explore this topic a little bit, get a little bit into scripture, because I think it's important for us who are listening to understand my intention. I prayed a lot about it and the Lord spoke to me. I felt in the depths of my heart asking me why are you doing this episode? And let me just put this out there I am in no way, I'm in no way, shape or form, interested in any of these topics on a personal level. I just want to make that clear. This is not about me, but really it's about how young people, how people in our society, are viewing relationships and I believe, as it is the reason for our podcast, the reason why we started the podcast because we believe that the message that we have to share impacts people's lives and influence people's lives in a real level. So I'm not just talking about scripture from biblical texts from out of nowhere, but no, we're diving into. Hey, why is this important? How can this affect your everyday life? So we'll talk about Abraham, jacob and David. Right, the historical context. We'll get into that a little bit. We're going to discuss that. Okay, now let me just put this out here.

Speaker 1: 5:08

When the stats, when we talk about polygamy on a global scale, it's relatively rare, involving about 2% of the world's population, but polygamy is primarily practiced in regions like in West and Central Africa, and it often is. These spaces are called the polygamous belt I didn't even know that. Or polygamy belt I didn't even know that term existed until I did my research. It also exists in countries like Faso or Mali or Nigeria, where there are significant populations living in polygamous relationships. I did not know that as well. So a lot of this stuff we're finding out as we're doing the research. It's not exclusive to one faith, but it's practiced by Muslims and Christians and adherence of folk religion. So we're not even talking about a Christian versus Muslim or folk religion. It's not the conversation.

Speaker 1: 6:07

This, this these partnerships or relationships are being practiced by people from different faith groups. A substantial percentage of people who practice folk religion live in polygamous households, which is also true, so in Djibouti, where the socioeconomic status of husbands and the consent of existing wives are considered for the approval of new marriages. So basically, here, what we're getting at is that it is practice in many of these West African communities, as far as research says, and other places as well. Outside of Africa, polygamy is legal in the middle east and in asian countries. Probably about one percent fewer than one percent of muslim men in countries of afghanistan and egypt live with more than one wife, despite the legal arrangements there. But in the united states, right, it's largely banned and it carries a significant social stigma, and I'll talk about this in a YouTube video. Once again, please go watch that YouTube video, promise you it will be an eye opener for you.

Speaker 1: 7:13

The historical roots of polygamy are deep right. There are references found in the religious texts and the Quran and the Bible. That shows people from of our, particularly in the Bible, traditional patriarchs, religious patriarchs in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament are showing signs that they practice polygamy as well, and maybe polyamory right. So there's the religious factor. So we're diving deep into this and I really want to hear your comments. I really want to hear what you have to say. So if you think that this conversation, this podcast episode, will be a benefit to someone, I'm going to encourage you and I'm going to encourage you to not see this as a problem or a virus. No, it's not that right, but I want you to see it as a significant conversation to have, and here's what research is also saying. There's a book that I read called Sacred Rights, and I'll young. Young adult children are not only changing their perspective about religion and how they view religion, but they're also changing their viewpoint about relationships. To focus on this or practice some of these nontraditional relationship practices, if you will as well. So, yeah, it's true. So the historical roots right, we can pick up these things from various ex-religious texts.

Speaker 1: 9:00

Okay, the legal the problem is that there are legal and cultural recognitions and there are legal and cultural issues that this brings up, that polygamy brings up, and this often has historical and, in some places, historical ties, like with the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-day Saints. You guys know, you traditionally call them Mormons. We don't call them that anymore. We call them LDS or Latter-day Saints, call them Mormons. We don't call them that anymore, we call them LDS or Latter-day Saints. Right, some of those very traditional conservative factions within that group still practice polygamy. So polygamy is generally seen today, now, in some sectors, as a lifestyle choice, a personal relationship choice, and some of them, some people, live in these relationships, but they're not recognized by, they're not vetted by the local governmental institutions.

Speaker 1: 9:51

So you have people who are living, who are going to your churches and in your communities and people that you meet who are practicing these kind of relationships, these polygamous and polyamorous relationships. Okay, it's not something that you and I can run away from, and not to say that we need to run away from it, meaning it's not anything to be afraid of, without actually going forward and trying addressing the topic or addressing the issue. Now I've said two words. I used the phrase polygamy and I used the phrase polyamory, and I'm going to just explain the difference between the two. Polyamory refers to the practice of engaging in multiple romantic relationships simultaneously. So you got a person who's in a relationship with one person and also another person, but all parties are involved. There's consent, there's knowledge, there's understanding that there's a three-part relationship. So the interview that you heard at the very beginning right, is a group of people who, or three people who were involved in a polyamory relationship and get this y'all.

Speaker 1: 10:57

Some people are participating in polyamorous relationships because of financial reasons. There's a lot of young people out there who, particularly post COVID, who were trying to find themselves. They couldn't take it was trying to find themselves trying to establish. After the great resignation, when COVID happened, people stopped going to work. They said you know, I'm not going to go back to my job because you know what I can do it on my own. And you had a lot of young people saying look, I'm not going to go back to college, I'm going to take a gap year. And so how did you know that how people were, how these young people were making it work? They were getting in these kinds of relationships. Did you know that they were getting in these kinds of relationships? And not to say that I agree with that, but you need to know that there are people, young people, who were engaging in these kinds of relationships for economic purposes. They were trying to get, you know, trying to establish themselves away from their parents, and so they were participating in these relationships and to make their way through, to live, to survive.

Speaker 1: 12:03

Polygamy, on the other hand, is the practice of marrying multiple spouses at one time Right. It's also called polygyny or polygamy, polygamy, polygyny, and I'm going to talk about in my next video and on YouTube. I'm going to talk about polygyny, so I'll talk about that next. But the point here that this is a topic of conversation that we need to discuss because our social system and how we see relationships are drastically shifting and changing, and so there are legal laws that are happening, there are legal situations that are happening that are affecting that.

Speaker 1: 12:42

So biblical, let's talk about the biblical text, right so, in Genesis, chapter 16, because people, because you as a listener, need to understand right If you are a Christian, that there are scripture verses and stories and narratives in the Bible where individuals, stories and faith, people of faith, practiced polygamy. Right, they had multiple wives. Right, abraham and Sarah. In Genesis, chapter 16,. Right, abraham and Sarah. Sarah could not marry, I'm sorry, she could not have a husband. Sorry, mary, I'm sorry she could not have a husband. Sorry, sarah could not conceive a child and because she could not conceive a child, she took a handmaid, hagar.

Speaker 1: 13:31

This is in Genesis, chapter 16. Go read it and told her husband Abraham, because I cannot have a child, you can take this, this, my handmaid, my servant, sort of like a, and that was a common practice in those days to have servants, right, people who you know took care of your household for you, and sort of like maids, and back in that time, ancient time, they had what they called a maid servant. So you may have a wife who had multiple people or women in this case to take care of various things in the home, and there's a lot of women who actually do that today. They don't call these people maid servants, but they may call them nannies and so forth and so on. Okay, but Abraham took his wife's suggestion, took Hagar, had relationships with her and then they produced the son Ishmael, and Sarah was okay with that. Now, the result of that relationship was pretty contradictory and you can go and read it, because I want to encourage you to do that, but it shows you what the result of that relationship was.

Speaker 1: 14:38

Jacob married Leah and Rachel. This is in Genesis 29 and 30. And you see that Leah and Rachel's father right deceived them, so Rachel also had a child. Sorry, jacob married Leah and he married Rachel, and he also had a child with their handmaidens, belhah and Zephah. This is in Genesis 29 and 30. So once again, once again, you see that you have polygamy being practiced, and these are and these stories are coming from people in the scripture faith, fathers in the Christian, judeo-christian tradition. You are seeing this happening. You're seeing this happening.

Speaker 1: 15:24

David had multiple wives, right, he had Michal, abigail and Bathsheba, and among others. This is 2 Samuel 3, 2-5-6. 11, 26, and 27. So, once again, it's important for us to ask these questions right. I begin the way I started why do people care? Why should you care, right? Why do people feel the need that they need to have more than one spouse, right? Why do people feel that they need to have more than one spouse or more than one important intimate relationship? And I would say that people feel that way because they feel trapped. They feel trapped Now. I want you to listen to this other clip podcast with Brent Weinstein, and he's given his explanation of why he think people who are choosing polygamous relationship, polyamory, are on the wrong page.

Speaker 3: 16:27

I do not think polyamorous folks are on the right track. Within the polyamorous community, there's a recognition about just how difficult it is to make it work, but I don't really want to interfere with their right to do it. I would like to be able to talk about whether it's a good idea, whether it has societal implications that we should be aware of, but I would counsel them away from it because I think it actually prioritizes one thing which is desirable, but the cost of it is very, very high. What does it prioritize? It prioritizes not locking yourself into a single sexual relationship, and I think there's a way in which there is a terror that surrounds locking yourself into a single sexual relationship, and part of the terror goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation.

Speaker 3: 17:01

If you think that beauty is maxed out at 20 and then it wanes over life, then as a woman you're trapped in this terrible situation where you've got this power long before you know what to do with it and it's going to evaporateate, so you better capitalize on it.

Speaker 3: 17:17

And if you're a man, you're very frightened that you're going to get into a relationship and then you're going to watch this person that you love fall apart in front of your eyes and you're going to be you know, you're going to be caught in that situation that, because we've got this overly simplistic mythology surrounding, a lot of people are trying to solve that problem. How do I not get locked into that relationship that's going to trap me with somebody who's decaying in front of me, right? Yeah, I don't think it's a decaying thing. I would push back against that. I would say people just want more variety. They just want they're attracted to other people and want to act on them. And if they find a partner who is also willing to do that and they stay together, I don't see what would be the issue if they wanted to do it.

Speaker 1: 18:08

I don't know if he's a proponent or he would, or if he was just being antagonistic like just playing devil's advocate. When you have social structures that change, particularly as it relates to individual relationships, the question that we must ask is why is that structure changing in this way? What's causing the change? What's the motivation for the change? The whole concept of our understanding of how relationships function, where love is, you know, primary perhaps. Is that an individual choice or is that a state choice? Right, because you can have a state to intervene on, say, abortion? Right, this is not an individual's choice, to particularly those on the right.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Politically, right will always make an argument for hey, the one you know, abortion in any form is murder. The state has a right to intervene because of a taking of another's life. Right. Then the whole conversation around well, what defines life? Ok, on the left, or however you find yourself politically in relation to this subject of abortion, you could then say well, life is not determined until this point, or it's an individual's choice and the state shouldn't be involved in an individual's choice. If a woman decides to do that, it is not the state's authority. They're outreaching the authority by stretching into a person's individual choice on what they do with their body. The same thing can be said about this circumstance right does the state if a person chooses to marry multiple people or be in relationship let's just say, marry so polyg if a person decides to participate in polygamy and all the persons participating are in consent, then what right does the state have to impinge upon that consent? So then the question is well, what is the issue? If you have adults who are consenting to this, why is the state involved in this? And I'm not even talking about the religious perspective and I'm not talking about my personal belief, but I'm giving you arguments around this topic. So then the question then becomes well, if they're consenting adults, then what right does the state have to impinge upon that consent, and is it the individual's right if they want to participate in that?

Speaker 1: 20:40

Well, I think it boils down to legal concerns. There was a man in. There was a legal case in Bolton County I'm sorry, not in Bolton County, but there was a legal case in Texas of a individual by the name of Orlando Coleman. Fox News reported on on, and I'm not, although I'm not a huge fan of Fox News, but there you go. But, um, orlando Coleman was highlighted because of him participating in a polygamous, uh relationship and in Texas, uh, you know, uh, that's considered, can be considered a felony, just like many other things in Texas. I'm not surprised by that at all, like many things in Texas, right, and I'm not even talking about what the Bible says, but I'm bringing up why it is an issue in many of these places and states. So the legal system treats, treats as an offense, treats it as a problem and stands against polygamy, which is outlawed in the United States, right.

Speaker 1: 21:53

So, so, yes, orlando Coleman, right, with his DA weighing in on the situation, was saying listen, this is a family law case, right, should it be a family law case? Should it serve as a reminder? Or because it's criminal law, because of exploitation of persons and relationship, right? So there are many complex problems with this story that leads to it being criminal and illegal practice, right? And so again, why should we be concerned? Why should we care? Why is this relevant? It's relevant because it surrounds the whole concept of relationships. It's relevant because it surrounds the whole concept of relationships and it also gets into if a person chooses to do this and to participate in these relationships and the state blesses that Excuse the analogy there. But then they have to also render tax benefits. How does that work? Health insurance, parental rights, you know, death rights, property rights everything changes.

Speaker 1: 23:12

So listen, here's my conclusion. Okay, here's where I'm dry. You're saying, lionel, why are we talking about this on the Words for Change podcast? We're talking about this because young people are participating in these relationships. Social structures are changing. Not only are people redefining how they work in the workplace, how they function in their private lives a matter of a public issue, not a private issue, not a public issue. Same thing with COVID Right, I have a right to not take that is a state impinging upon my right. So what we're looking at is the state's ability to impinge upon individual rights.

Speaker 1: 23:58

And for Christians, when we look at this subject matter, we have double ties in conflicting information. You got in the biblical text where you got faith fathers in a Judeo-Christian background who are saying but the story demonstrates in the Bible, through Abraham, david, solomon, right Polygamy was practiced. Now there's something that we can learn from that story up. Those relationships were very, very contradictory, very, very contentious relationships that typically didn't end well for those individuals participating in it. Hagar ended up being kicked out of the house and her and her son were homeless. Jacob's father-in-law betrayed him. Jacob was known as a trickster. David was a person who killed Bathsheba's husband to have her. He was known as a man of anger. Solomon turned away from God. He had 700 wives, 300 concubines in 1 Kings 11, 1 through 4.

Speaker 1: 25:06

So when we look at these texts, these texts are not saying that these relationships are good. And then you have the church of Jesus Christ, latter-day Saints, who, some of their traditional fractions, still practice polygamous relationships. And what am I saying? I'm saying that if we turn a blind eye toward these things, then one, we're not taking our faith and putting it into practice. Number two, we are not seeing how it is our responsibility to help provide guidance and shape the moral ethic of our communities that we are a part of. And then, three, we are leaving these very adult decisions up to children, who are making these decisions and they're not at a age where they can make such decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. There's psychological and emotional studies that indicate high levels of depression and anxiety in polygamous marriages. Children in polygamous families and relationships typically have emotional stress and stigmatism that lasts for a long time. Some would even say, the educational achievements are lower from kids who are in these parental households. Polygamous households Households typically experience economic burden because of it. There are a lot of social issues, religious issues and spiritual issues, and it is our responsibility to have something to say.

Speaker 1: 26:36

The next podcast episode we're going to talk about polyandry, that's when a woman has multiple husbands, and I'm going to post a YouTube video about it and then I'm going to come back and do an audio podcast. This will not be a video, but this is only for my podcast audience. So if you have somebody in that relationship that you know dearly or work with, ask them their opinion about it. Ask them their opinion about it In the future. I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off soon, but just pray that I can have a person who actually came out of a polygamous relationship in an interview. That's my goal. That's my goal. So keep the faith and look forward to talking to you soon.