Ep. 73 Path to Jesus from Taoism to Christianity #dualfaith

Join Lionel on the Words for Change podcast as he dives deep into the journey of reconnecting to faith and exploring the message of Jesus. In this episode, special guest Bob Martin, a former criminal trial attorney and mob lawyer, shares his transformative spiritual journey. Discover how Bob's experiences in community service and political involvement shaped his path from Taoism to Christianity. This thought-provoking conversation highlights the duality in beliefs and the harmony between Eastern and Christian wisdom. Tune in for an inspiring discussion on the practical application of faith in our lives.

Three Major Takeaways

1. Practical Faith Reconnection: The episode underscores the importance of reconnecting with the Christian faith and the teachings of Jesus, focusing on how these can be practically applied in everyday life for personal and communal growth.
2. Impact of Individual Actions: Bob Martin's narrative demonstrates how individual actions in community service, political involvement, and professional roles can significantly contribute to societal change and influence the lives of others.
3. Interfaith Understanding: The conversation encourages exploring and understanding the commonalities between different faith traditions, particularly the shared principles between Taoist and Christian teachings, promoting a message of interfaith harmony and spiritual transformation.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Personal Transformation Through Faith and Service
• 8:49 Navigating Faith Differences in Marriage
• 24:34 Exploring Duality in Faith Perspectives
• 34:44 Interfaith Dialogue and Spiritual Exploration
• 51:53 Interfaith Wisdom and Spiritual Growth

Transcript

Lionel: 0:00

Well, hey, welcome to the Words for Change podcast. I am excited because we have an opportunity to reconnect to our faith, and there's so many different ways we can do that, but our goal here is for those of you who are in search for your Christian faith to reconnect to the message of Jesus, to the words of Jesus, to the practicality of what Jesus brings to our lives. This episode is going to be good for you. It's going to be very helpful for you. My name is Lionel, I'm the host of this podcast and I have a special guest who is here with us today. Bob, how are you doing today, good sir, I'm doing great.

Bob Martin: 0:44

Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Lionel: 0:47

Absolutely, we're happy to have you. And so, bob, why don't you tell people who you are and what blessings or goodness do you bring to the world?

Bob Martin: 1:00

So it's been a long life. I'm 74 years old and I guess the best thing I can say and the best definition of who I am today is I'm a happy guy who has the blessings of the love of my second wife and both of our all of our children and grandchildren, and I have opportunities to serve the community and serve the Lord. Have opportunities to serve the community and serve the Lord.

Lionel: 1:24

So, Bob, how do you serve the community? Communal change is a big part of what we aspire to do and be with our Words for Change community.

Bob Martin: 1:39

So how do you serve the community? So I am a part of the community and I'm a part of the world, and everyone that I come into contact with is a part of the community and a part of the world. So, as Mother Teresa once said, you know, we can't change the whole world, but we can change our little corner of it. So every difference that I can make in a life is a way of changing and serving my community. Then there's, of course, also the institutional things, like serving my church and being a community advocate and getting into politics and freedoms and rights and stuff like that, but mostly it's all about that one-on-one relationship that you have with folks that make a difference in their lives.

Lionel: 2:21

So what did you do in the political sphere? How did you, how were you involved in that, in that part of your life? I'll let you tell your story and then I'll tell my story.

Bob Martin: 2:34

Well, you know, if we get into politics, we have to take a look at the fact that this is an inflection point that we're at, and I think that the choice is very dire and very important and very um very grave, uh, that we're coming up in the next election, and I think that understanding and not having a superficial knowledge of things so that you can make an informed decision, um is, uh, it's just real important these days. Um, so, uh, that's the the political end of it. Uh, but I spent 40 years as a? Uh criminal trial attorney, both as a prosecutor, um for Janet Reno, uh, back in the cocaine days. You know if you ever seen the movie Scarface?

Lionel: 3:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob Martin: 3:24

Well, those are the days that I was in Miami doing that stuff and I prosecuted and I was also a mob lawyer for some years.

Lionel: 3:36

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You just can't go over that. You said you were a mob lawyer. Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean tell us about that.

Bob Martin: 3:48

Well, when I was working in the DA's office, we were in the Economic Crimes and Consumer Frauds Division and we hit the mob up for a good size of money. Shortly thereafter I left the office and I'll call him Johnny, okay. And basically the conversation was you know, you gotta be pretty good to hit us up for that much money. We'd like to see some clients. So I got involved in all that and yeah, yeah, so.

Lionel: 4:22

so how did you make the transition? How did you get out of that? That's the best.

Bob Martin: 4:28

Yeah Well.

Lionel: 4:30

I mean you can tell me.

Bob Martin: 4:32

Yeah, no, no, it's it's, it's it's we. We parted on good terms. We had a very good relationship. You know, I find that folks that are in the business of crime are very good businessmen and we had a very good arrangement that I wouldn't do anything illegal and unethical, and they said that that was in their best interest, because they wanted a lawyer who was respected by the court and whose word was gold. And so we met on those values and we did. You know, we, we worked together. But then came a time when Johnny's son got arrested on a 15 year minimum mandatory cocaine trafficking charge, and then there was no saying no to him. He wanted me to do this and to do that, which I wasn't willing to do. So I thought that moving to North Carolina might be.

Lionel: 5:29

Well, I'll tell you.

Bob Martin: 5:32

I did and we shook hands and he said yeah, sometimes a man just has to move on and this way we can part friends and never heard from them again.

Lionel: 5:40

Well, you know, bob, I was on the lower end of that, as a young kid, teenager, who grew up in a poverty stricken area. I was on the bottom of that, you know, involved with all kinds of illegal activity not all kinds, but primarily with drugs primarily and, man, you know, the only way I got out of it was because I had a death threat over my life and the word was out on the street that it had a hit on me and so I had to get out of town and my family did everything in their power to get me out of town. So you were sort of at a different angle with that and you know, still the same, right, still the same, and yeah, so I got away from that. So tell me, what are you, what was the most, you know, memorable story that you had during that time and what was the thing that it was sort of a life changing moment for you during that time, as you are seemingly going through a tremendous transition from.

Bob Martin: 6:49

Well, you know, yeah, in those days, in those days in miami, you know, the italians were talking to the haitians, were talking to the colombians, were talking to the cubans, talking to the peruvians, and so my clientele were all of those folks. And I guess the most dramatic case I ever had was a death penalty case for a soldier from the Medellin cartel, and that's a long story, but it was all about life or death. And the fella, you know, was raised by the Colombian Medellin cartel, but only after he ran away at 12 from his mother, who was schizophrenic and had tried to kill him three times. The guy turned out, he was educated by the cartel and he was the most gentle soul. He had a swimmer's body, about six foot four, snow white skin, dark black eyes. You know, as handsome as you could possibly imagine and as polite as you can, little did you know that he was a monster and would do anything the cartel asked him to do. So he wound up killing this fellow by wrapping his head in duct tape and it was a death penalty case.

Bob Martin: 7:58

And the case wasn't about guilt or innocence, it was about life or death. And I argued to the jury that, yes, he is a monster, no question, when it came to the death phase, but not a monster of his own making. And then I was able to bring in his early life and the three times that his mother tried to kill him, burn his head and tortured him and did other kinds of things. So the jury came back and they said life. And I still get letters from him every once in a while oh, wow, wow, that. That that's the most dramatic story, but that's not the story of how the transformation came about.

Lionel: 8:35

Right, right, right. So so tell us about the transformation piece there.

Bob Martin: 8:49

Well, so I was going out with these guys in Miami in those days, the days Miami Vice days, a lot of chrome and glass, disco nightclubs, and and I was hanging out with these guys and just I was doing some stuff, snorting some things. I shouldn't have been and my life was kind of heading south. And I think I need to say that the family I grew up in, my folks were Eastern European immigrants. My dad, both of all of their families, all of my ancestors were wiped out by one group or another, slaughtered Either the Bolsheviks or the Nazis. My mom was Roma, gypsy, my dad Hungarian, and so they were I'm not going to say they were atheists, but they were non-theists. It wasn't a conversation that we had in our house. They came to the conclusion there couldn't possibly be a God with allowing those things to happen. So I really didn't have any kind of spiritual background.

Bob Martin: 9:43

And then I got involved with these guys and things started to go south. I was arrogant, I was full of myself I know of course the white powder didn't help my perspective on that and I was just barely maintaining my use in secret in the courthouse. But at home life was going south and I was seeing a therapist and I came to a real crossroads. By the time I was 32 years old. I had paid my house off and now things were going south and I might have to refinance it and I went to ask him about that. So, rather than sit there and do the typical therapy well, how do you feel about that, bob? He reached behind and he grabbed some coins. He started shaking and throwing the coins and counting them up and making calculations and drawing lines and doing all this really weird stuff. And finally he wrote a big number down and he opened a book up to that chapter number and he showed me the chapter and the title was retreat and I I was paying him 65 bucks an hour. I just cursed him out, you know.

Lionel: 11:03

So what was that he? So what was he doing?

Bob Martin: 11:07

Right, right, right. So the advice was right and I went to this business. I was trying to start up that was draining me dry and I closed it and I went back and I apologized to my wife and I just decided I was going to get out of that rabbit hole and clean my act up. And I went back and I saw him and I asked him what it was and he said that's the I Ching. What's the I Ching? He says it's a Taoist practice. I said what's Taoism? So it turns out that my therapist, george Robinson, was the primary disciple and the English language editor for the very prolific master Hua-Ching-Ni. Listen to this A 72nd generation Taoist monk from the Shaolin Temple. You know Kung Fu?

Lionel: 11:58

You're talking about Hua-Ching-Ni right.

Bob Martin: 12:00

Did you say Hua-Ching-Ni, hua-ching-ni, hua-ching?

Lionel: 12:04

Hua Qing Ni Okay.

Bob Martin: 12:07

H-U-A-C-H-I-N-G-N-I. Okay, his last name was Ni, and in Chinese it's really Ni Hua Qing. But so he started to explain to me what Taoism was. And here was, all of a sudden, this system of values and virtues and generosity and grace and humility, how to live an effective and efficient life, how to go with the flow and float downstream, but not in a not give a heck way, but carefully watching out for the rocks and not running aground and still directing the boat, but at least not trying to paddle upstream. Right.

Bob Martin: 13:00

And it didn't ask me to have to believe in anything that was spiritual, it was just an owner's manual for being human, and I took to it and I studied under Master Nee for eight years that's when I had to come to North Carolina and then I started. So when I came to North Carolina it went from being a mob lawyer to all public service. I was just a different human being. I started my whole life over and went back to school, got a master's in social work and eventually the crazy part about it is here I am, I guess, a Taoist Buddhist, in a very deeply Southern Christian town, right. And I wound up marrying a Southern Baptist Bible literalist, right.

Lionel: 13:55

Yeah, so how does that? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a big mismatch. Yeah, big mismatch.

Bob Martin: 13:59

Well you would think so, but our values were the same. She's a saint. She sees somebody in need, she'll just move in and do what's necessary, without even thinking she should get a pat on the back. She's just a saint and she truly believes in taking care of the least of these. I mean, she's devoted to taking care of the least of these, as Jesus said. And she, funny, she would go off to church sometimes and she'd have like these sad big eyes and go hey, honey, what's what's wrong? She goes oh, you know, I love you so much and I just hate it that you're not going to go to heaven with me, because you know I hadn't been saved and, and I would say to her, you know well I'm, I hate it that you're not going to be reincarnated with me, so so wait a minute.

Lionel: 14:52

So you know there are, there are. I'm wondering how does, how does the? What was the faith conflict y'all had? Like? Was that the only? How did y'all deal with that?

Bob Martin: 15:04

Well, we didn't talk about it. It was really hard for me to believe that she could believe in all of the things that science said were impossible, like the world being 4,000 years old or you know, creationism and Adam and Eve, andah's ark and the like. But she deeply believed in those things and she'd look at my stuff, the taoism and you know it's like that confucius, pithy little couplets and stuff, and she just thought you know, that's just too weird, um, but well, well, but hold on.

Lionel: 15:43

There's some gold nuggets here. I I want to. I want to just land us, just for best practice, for a second. So you're in a relationship, in a marriage that seems to be fairly happy and but you have two different faith perspectives right. That, for many people, their faith is is a, it's a core value to them. It's very important. It's sort of the centering for them. How did you handle conflicts with with your faith issue? Well, with the different faith there.

Bob Martin: 16:15

Yeah, we just, we just we just stayed away from that. But where our faith would show itself is if she would say you know, I met this fellow today and he needed blah, blah, blah and I want to go do this and I would support her in that. And I think, yeah, you know, I mean it was also, you know, I remember hearing a quote from Jimmy Carter I am committed to doing as much as I can wherever I can, whenever I can, for as long as I can. And I, that was my, that was my motto of life. And so here was somebody who was my partner in that and it was my partner in, in, in doing our stuff and taking care of us and taking care of whatever, whatever we could, you know, in the world around us, and we were just partners in that and we worked very well together.

Bob Martin: 17:07

You know, I would. She was very detail oriented, I was very big picture oriented. We would talk about something we'd want to do and I give her the big plan and then she would make it. So what happened is in Taoism. All of the wisdom of Taoism is contained in a book called the Tao Te Ching, and Ching in Chinese means a classical book, and Tao means the way, which there's going to be an interesting coincidence I'll talk about in a minute and Te means virtue, so the town can you spell that for us, for people listening?

Bob Martin: 17:49

tau is t-a-o, okay, tay is t-e and ching is c-h-i-n-g. Got it and it is. It is 81 short, very, very one-page chapters. I'm reaching up here to see if I can.

Lionel: 18:11

There it is, there it is Good shot, it is.

Bob Martin: 18:14

It's 81 very short, pithy chapters. Oops, I'm sorry. What did I do? I still got you. Oh, you got me. Okay, I'm sorry. And it contains all of the wisdom of Taoism.

Bob Martin: 18:30

And then what would happen is she would go off to church and then I'd say, how was church today? And I was kind of interested. And she would come back and she didn't like the exclusivity of her Southern baptism. She didn't like the my way or the highway passivity of her Southern baptism. She didn't like the my way or the highway. She didn't like that. They didn't care about, um, they didn't care about the environment. Uh, they didn't recycle. There was a lot of things. She didn't like it, but it was the religion that she grew up in.

Bob Martin: 19:00

And she would come and I would ask her, like you know, what was the sermon about today? And she would tell me. And, as she would say it to me, I would say, well, gee, that's just like chapter 37 of the Dow to Jane. So I would start to look at that. And then one day I read something and I said, well, I wonder what the Bible says about that. So I Googled, googled what does the Bible say about this? And so I got all these biblical citations and I started reading through them all and it kind of blew me away, because I realized, um, and so I got all these biblical citations and I started reading through them all and it kind of blew me away because I realized, well, there ain't nothing different about this, this is the same thing, same stuff. And so then what I said well, I'm going to try something, I'm going to take a little, um, I'm going to take a little uh passage from the Tao Te Ching and see if I can turn it into a Christian prayer using the same Give us an example.

Lionel: 19:53

Yeah, this is. This is very, very interesting. This is very. It's just interesting because I often say on our program that you'll find a lot of a lot of program, that you'll find a lot of, a lot of similarities in some. All of our ancient faith traditions, like, you'll find a lot of similarities and I think that's important because I think it expresses their universal rules or universal principles. That just makes us better human beings, and a part of that, bob is me saying. In addition, I think that the goal of our faith traditions Are to make us more of communal human beings, make us better, although it totally explains to me. Although it totally explains to me.

Lionel: 20:45

However, when you talk about your wife's experience in the Baptist church, how they were very, very exclusive and didn't believe in things like recycling or taking care of the environment, well, that has a lot to do with their theological belief systems that the world is going to burn up anyway. Right, so we live for the next life, we don't live for this life. Tell me why that's problematic and tell me if you could just help us understand how you were able to, how you were able to sort of work through that with her. Maybe some of the the transitional moments she went through so hearing your experience in Taoism and what it says, and then what she was dealing with, and then how she worked through that, and then how you responded to that and then then, then, then take us in with that.

Bob Martin: 21:39

uh, some syncretism there, because that's kind of what I well, like I say, I started looking at it and and and and playing around with the language and doing my research. And you know, the more I, the more I talked to her and the more I read and the more I studied the Bible, the more it became abundantly clear to me that it's the same stuff. So I started writing and then, every once in a while, I'd finish a chapter. You know I'd be happy to read you one. They only take 30 seconds, 40 seconds to read. And I would read it to her and she would look at it and she'd go, wow, where did you get that? That's so good. And I would say, well, this is the chapter in the Tao Te Ching I got it from. And she would read it and she goes, wow, that's really amazing. And do another one, Do another one.

Bob Martin: 22:34

So eventually I did all 81 chapters and this national publisher, Kendall Hunt, picked it up and published it. What, yeah? And she sits down and reads it like a devotional now, every single day, and every time I would give her another chapter and read it. All of a sudden we would have this wonderful, deep discussion about our faith. Okay, All right, Okay, Okay.

Lionel: 23:02

So, okay, let's, let's, let's do a test run, all right, okay? So look, look what I got here, bob. Okay, so, everyone who's listening right now, bob and I, I have my Bible. Look at that big old old. Do I need to get my glasses too? I got my glasses and Bob's going to read. And there you go, he's going to read. I'm the way we're going to talk about his, his work there in a moment. I got your information for the, for the audience, and I'm going to try to see if my brain will immediately click with something in the new Testament or in the Proverbs or Psalms that sounds very similar to what he's doing. And if you guys have your Bible, if you're listening, I want you to pull out your Bibles and I want you to kind of see if it makes sense to you. Okay, so you're on, bob, you're on, let's do this.

Bob Martin: 23:55

Okay, so the very first chapter of the Tao Te Ching. I think you're going to be able to connect it to Genesis immediately. It reads this is the Tao Te Ching, you know, translated from the Chinese into English the Tao and remember the word Tao means the way and what did Jesus say what did Jesus say?

Lionel: 24:16

I am the way I am, the way, the truth and the light. Yes, there you go, so that's why I named the book I Am the Way, because was Jesus saying I am the way, or was he saying I am the Tao? I don't know, I don't know.

Bob Martin: 24:34

Okay, so here's how the first chapter reads the Tao that can be described is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be spoken is not the eternal name. The nameless is the boundary of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of creation. Freed from desire, you can see the hidden mystery by having desire, you can only see what is visibly real. Yet mystery and reality emerge from the same source. The source is called darkness. Darkness on from darkness, the beginning of all understanding. Yeah.

Lionel: 25:13

Okay.

Bob Martin: 25:14

So a little tough for the Western mind.

Lionel: 25:16

That is, that is, but but the one thing, that, okay. So you said and I'm going to go to so now for the Bible thumpers, for the Bible folk, right, you said darkness. Right, it was darkness, darkness. Then immediately my brain started hearing that, Right In the beginning, right In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth. In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the spirit of God was moving upon the surface of the water. So, again, what you're saying in the Tao, and then what I just read, is that there's a commonality of what Things being created from darkness. There's a commonality of what Things being created from darkness.

Bob Martin: 26:07

There's darkness and also, if you read into that, you'll feel the sense of mystery yeah, that there's a mystery there. So there's both a mystery, and then there's the creation. So even Genesis talks about this combination and relationship between the mystery and the creation, the things that we can touch and feel and that which we can only sense and imagine.

Lionel: 26:33

Okay, let's do one more. Let's do one more.

Bob Martin: 26:42

Wait. Before we do, let me read what I wrote in the Christian version of chapter one. Okay, so what I wrote, that Connie would read my wife, she would read it and she would get it immediately, and I think you will too. The God that can be described is not the true God. The name that can be spoken is not the name of God, because, remember, he said, I am, and even among Jews, they never say the name of God. They have this unpronounceable name, yahweh, yahweh. So the God that can be described is not the true God. The name that can be spoken is not the name of God. God is unnameable. God is the origin. Naming God is the beginning of religion. Let go and you find God. Holding on. You see the creation. The unnameable and the creation are ultimately the same. Their source cannot be known. All that can be known is that I am is In the beginning. There was emptiness. Emptiness then creation. Thus the mystery from which all wonders arise.

Lionel: 27:50

There you go, Boom Boom Okay let's do one more.

Bob Martin: 27:58

Okay, let's do. I'll do chapter five from the Tao Te Ching.

Lionel: 28:04

Okay, and remember, guys, the Tao Te Ching is spelled T-A-O-T-E-C-H-I-N-G.

Bob Martin: 28:15

Oh wait, let me. Let me just do chapter two. Sure, so, from the Tao, when people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created. When people see things as good, evil is created. Being and non-being produce each other, difficult and easy, complement each other Long and short, define each other. High and low oppose each other. Fore and aft follow each other.

Bob Martin: 28:43

Therefore, the master can act without doing anything and teach without saying a word. Things come her way and she does not stop them. Things leave and she lets them go. She has without possessing and acts without any expectations. When her work is done, she takes no credit. That is why it will last forever. So you can see, in the Tao Te Ching, what they're teaching is the idea of duality. You know that when we create good, we're also creating evil, and so there might be a way of unifying and having neither good nor evil in a unity of just being different reflections, and that's one of the Taoist principles. Another Taoist principle is wu-wei doing, not doing, in other words, understanding and mastering something to the point where you can do it as an automatic response in life. And also there's this non-attachment, this sense of non-attachment, and there's also this sense of not putting the focus and the importance on the work and not on the person. Right right.

Lionel: 29:53

Okay, so I have Isaiah. I had to look this up real fast. I have Isaiah 45 talking about duality. Isaiah 45 says this that there is no one beside me. I'm the Lord. There is no other. I'm the one forming light and creating darkness, casting well-being and creating calamity. I am the Lord who does all these things. Again, that's Isaiah 45, 7. When the Lord is speaking to the prophet and saying I created there's duality here. I created light and darkness. If you want to look for causality, it's me. I'm doing, you know I'm so. So that that's very, very interesting, very, very interesting.

Bob Martin: 30:52

So also there's the idea that rain falls on the good and evil.

Lionel: 30:57

Right, that's right. Jesus said that it falls on the just and the unjust.

Bob Martin: 31:02

Just in the unjust, and so Jesus does not decide on what his gifts are going to, based on the things that we mere mortals judge on. They're all children of God, and so there is the duality. But then there's also that they're all children of God, and so they're all the same in that regard. So this is what I wrote in chapter two If you view some things as beautiful, you'll view others as ugly. If you judge some people as good, you'll judge others as bad.

Bob Martin: 31:33

Opposites create each other. There's no easy without difficult, no long without short, no high without low, no before without after. But Christ transcends opposites without after. But Christ transcends opposites. He acts without acting and teaches beyond his words. He does not resist what is. Thus his influence becomes irresistible. He owns nothing, yet has all. He acts without regard to what people think. He is Lord, yet sees others as equal. He fashions miracles and shirks pride. He places importance only on the message. When his work is done, he moves on. That is why his works are eternal. So you can see the Tao in that. But then, as a Christian, you can easily say that this is a devotional talking about the character of Jesus. What kind of a person does he, and what is it about him that we want to model, so that we can be more Christ-like in our lives?

Lionel: 32:39

Yeah, and you know what's powerful about that is it really gets to the morality of a thing. It gets to the morality. So what I mean by morality, it gets to the morality and ethics of the principle, right? So it's not always just about the scripture. So some people who are listening to this, they're going to go man, you're reading something from the Dow and Bailey, now you're reading a scripture and you're you're making these uh, uh things that the scripture would never say.

Lionel: 33:13

No, listen, an important piece for for us to get is that our Christian faith has principles and ethics. That does not exist from nothing and nowhere, but there were ancient principles, there were cultural principles and moralities that people followed, that were sort of universal, and this is what the book of Proverbs talks about. When it talks about in all, you're getting get understanding. Knowledge is one thing, but knowing how to apply that and then knowing what is the ethic motive and intent behind a thing is very important, which is what Jesus promoted. Instance you know, in the Gospels of Matthew, some of the religious leaders said to Jesus look, why are your disciples not washing their hands before they eat? And Jesus says well, you know, it's not so much about, it's not what goes into the person, that files, it's what comes out of a person. That's a principle. What principle? He got that from somewhere, more than likely probably from Egypt, but there was some teaching and training, some ancient teaching and training and wisdom that helped him understand his Christian faith that way.

Lionel: 34:44

So, okay, bob, we're going to come back on the other side. You hold on for a second. We're going to take a quick break for our YouTube fans. Okay, just a second. Well, man, we're having a wonderful conversation with Bob Martin. We're talking about all the differences and the similarities between our faith group. So here's what I need you to do If you're listening to this, I want you to make sure you go to our YouTube page Words for Change YouTube page where you can learn more.

Lionel: 35:13

If you are watching this, you can see this pop up on the screen right now. There's information there for you. Also, I want you to go ahead on and subscribe. Go ahead on and subscribe to our YouTube page and you can make sure that you join us here on Apple's podcast, spotify, and you can send me a message. Let me know. Listen, I want to hear an episode about this, and this episode that you're doing with Bob was great. Here's some questions that I have for Bob, and we'll do our best and make sure we answer those questions. Okay, so, bob, as we move forward to the next stage, now that we've you've transitioned, you, you're in Taoism or you're practicing as a part of your, your spiritual development, tell us what work are you doing now that?

Bob Martin: 36:20

your Taoist is feeding and how you serve the world. Well, so I went, I was baptized five years ago, six years ago now, in the United Church of Christ, which is a progressive church, and our particular church is broad enough in its philosophy to be able it's funny, this is a funny story. So I can say the UCC is a pretty progressive church, right, and I always thought that a you know, I, always I as the more that I read and the more that I learned about Chris, even early on in my life, when I was introduced to Jesus for the first time, I always loved him as I saw him as a great master, as a wisdom master. The question of his divinity, I'll be very honest with you, even today, is something which I just consider to be above my pay grade and not particularly important, because I honor the teachings and I honor who he was. We had a good conversation in my Sunday school class once and it was this If a person claims to be a Christian and believes in the divinity of Christ but doesn't follow his ways and is greedy and is harmful, is he a Christian? And in the other way, if a person follows the ways of Jesus and acts the way that Jesus would like him to act, but doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. Is he a Christian? So those, those are you know, kind of questions that I have. So now Connie is very happy because I'm going to be saved. I'm saved, but you know, to answer your question, it really needs going into. The question of what about? This exclusivity thing is something which turns a lot of people off from the church because it's just hard to believe that 90% or 70% of the world is condemned to hell. It's just hard for people to accept that whole thing and I have some thoughts on that and I'm fortunate that I go to a church where I can express those thoughts.

Bob Martin: 38:52

But you know, people always are citing John 3.16,. You know, no one can get to the Father except through me, and I question whether a spiritual being, when they said the word me, would be referring to the sack of skin that existed on the planet or was referring to their spiritual nature. If me referred to unconditional love and you substitute that for me, then it would read no one could get to the father without engaging in unconditional love. Now that makes a lot of sense and like. And the other thing that I kind of believe is that, you know, people talk about the Trinity the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that they are all one God in three manifestations, which would mean that God equals Jesus, equals the Holy Spirit.

Bob Martin: 39:51

And I don't know anybody that doesn't believe that the holy spirit was, has boundaries and only exists in certain countries. And it seems to me that the holy spirit is, is, is, is a force for good that inspires people all over the world, which means that jesus inspires people all over the world, and so means that Jesus inspires people all over the world. And so you know, if you, if you have a broader view of John 3, 16, and you take into the spiritual aspects of it, then you know we're all, we're all saved.

Lionel: 40:26

Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely a universalist viewpoint of salvation and the reason why, particularly For even I'm just going to say this for evangelicals that those are some of the people who follow me not all, but some and I and I appreciate them. For them it's about doctrine, it's about right, doctrine, right, and that that is the, that is the maximum, even though they would probably not want and phrases which I get it. I understand all of that Once you begin to grow and see different perspectives. For instance, not all Christians, I would just say, in the United States in particular, I mean I can go drill down deeper than that they don't all believe in the Trinitarian belief, right.

Lionel: 41:34

There's a faction in the Pentecostal church called oneness doctrine, where they believe that Jesus, that God, jesus, what they call homoousis, but that Jesus wasn't God. God is the only God, it can only be one God, which is why they call it oneness doctrine, right. And then, when you get to the Council of Nicaea 325, the big split was over what? The divinity of Christ? Was he man and God, or was he man? Well, guess what? The Western Church won that argument, which is why we have it in our canon in the West, but guess what the Eastern church don't hold fast to a Trinitarian doctrine to understand that theology is a working practice of trying to give voice, word and explanation to this mystery and thing we call God. That's Jesus' representation of that.

Bob Martin: 42:43

That's why yeah, that's why one of the symbols of the UCC church is a comma. I love that. God is still speaking. That's right. It's not the end.

Lionel: 42:58

You know and you know in the, in the, if you are, if you grew up in the South and you're went Baptist, you believe in dispensationalism, Every part of your, of the Christian faith at least, as there's many ways, I'm just trying not to be complicated for everyone. So dispensationalism basically saying that God does certain things at certain times in history. Well, in some of the Pentecostal doctrine, some of them believe in dispensationalism, but with the caveat. The caveat is God's still working in this day and time, so God didn't just stop working with the Bible, but that that message is continuing on and that God is still speaking and moving today, which is why you see people in the Pentecostal church still have the title Watch this apostle, why you see people in the Pentecostal church still have the title watch this apostle. So, whereas in dispossessionism and in some dispossession teachings, particularly in the South, there are no other apostles, I don't know if recently you've heard in the news, a pastor by the name of Tony Evans, who's a large in the evangelical world right, Got caught up in something that you know.

Lionel: 44:17

No one really knows what it is because when they gave the church gave a statement, he gave a statement. It was a very, very vague and I'm not using that for clickbait. I'm just saying he's one of those individuals that believe that women can be preachers in churches. He has a large following. He's actually a distant mentor of mine, right. So I don't. He doesn't believe in the title of apostle, but there are so many other things that he's done that have been very, very helpful to the African-American community and just the church community at large, right? So I'll say all of that. So tell us about your book, as we kind of wrap up here. Tell us about your book, and as you're talking about, I want to make sure that I show people what you, what you're working on, at least a book that you have permission to throw one little bug in the ointment here.

Bob Martin: 45:37

Bible are also reflected almost verbatim in Buddhist sutras that were written 500 years before Jesus lived, almost verbatim. And he was not recorded from the time that he was 13 to 32. So where was he? And there is a lot of evidence that he actually did travel in India and Tibet and taught and learned and returned and much of what he preached was very similar to Buddhist teachings, was very similar to Buddhist teachings. So there may be much more to the history here than we have any idea.

Bob Martin: 46:18

And if I could just tell you one other quick little story, when I came to North Carolina, I was, I went back, I started my whole career over, I went back and I became a DA district attorney and you know you get asked and invited to go speak at places.

Bob Martin: 46:34

So I got asked to come to a Pentecostal church and I went and I spoke about, you know, search warrants and the drug and drugs were just cocaine and crack was just kidding Alamance County here in North Carolina. So I talked about all that and then the preacher took me back to his office and he had an envelope for me which is an honorarium, which I didn't expect, and he he asked me you know my religion and you know, I didn't want to say Buddhist, but I'd been to a bunch of Unitarian churches. So I said Unitarian and his the, the blood just drained out of his face and he looked at me and he goes Sir, we here are Trinitarians. And without another word he got up and he walked to the door, to the outside, and he opened his door and he didn't even look me in the eye and I walked out the door. He did not give me that envelope.

Lionel: 47:34

Wow, Wow. There's something wrong with that right.

Bob Martin: 47:42

Yeah, there is something, but just goes to show that people are loyal to their belief systems.

Lionel: 47:49

Very much so, very much so so anyway about my book.

Bob Martin: 47:52

What would you like to know?

Lionel: 47:54

Yeah, so. So tell everyone where they can find the book. Where is it? You know, I think people want to know that. Okay, also your website and so on. So people on YouTube, they'll see you put it up for the audience listening. They won't be able to, so yeah, Right.

Bob Martin: 48:17

So the book is called I Am the Way Finding the Truth in the Life Through a Biblical Reimagining of the Tao is the name of it, and it has a copy on Amazon. Find it on Amazon or they can go to my website and I've got a lot of portions from the book on the website and it's I am the way bookcom.

Lionel: 48:35

There it is so if you're watching on YouTube, you see it pop up. Now I am the way bookcom and he's got all. Bob has all this stuff there for you as well. So I am the way and I'll make sure. Look at that, that's pretty. I am the way and I'll make sure. Look at that, that's pretty. I am the way the book. This book explores the interfaith spiritual harmony, creating a bridge between eastern and christian wisdom, expressing the chapters of the title ching tile dal te ching, and biblical language forming a devotional. Very good, very, very good. So that's there for you and I'll make sure that, uh, that information, uh, the link to Bob's website, is put in the show notes as well.

Bob Martin: 49:23

And there's a contact, there are contact buttons there and, um, if anybody ever wants to do a little Bible Bible study or a study on it, or have me come by virtually on Zoom to talk to a class or to do something, I'm available, no charge. I'm happy to do it.

Lionel: 49:42

Very good, that sounds like something we should do. I think people will appreciate that. So, bob, what closing word would you have for our audience today, whether something from your book or principle that you live by, something that will help them in their life, in their faith journey?

Bob Martin: 50:05

Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for the Lord. Just live your life on that basis. But I wake up in the morning and I take my dogs out to this elementary school that's nearby. It has a big playground in it and I can sit there on the bench as my dogs play around and I watch the sunrise. And what I say to myself in the morning is well, lord, this is going to be another day and it's going to be a day of my life, and whenever I leave in it I'm trading a day of my life. For that I am trading it. So it's important. So by the end of the day, let me please make sure that I leave something good in it.

Lionel: 50:54

Amen, well said, well said. And if I reinterpret that Christian, I'm just kidding. I always say Lord, give us this day our daily bread. You know, don't give us too much that we will be unthankful. You know, don't give us too much that we will be unthankful. Don't give us so much, I mean too little, that we would be grunge resentful, but give us just what we need to get through the day.

Bob Martin: 51:21

You know Buddhist monks. They leave their monasteries in the morning and they have a small little offering bowl that they carry with them in their hands and it holds just enough rice for one day, just one day. And they go out into the community and people take care of them and they fill their bowl and they go back and they have their food for one day, one day, and they go out next. Give us this day, well hold tight right there, brother.

Lionel: 51:53

Wow, what a conversation we've had with Bob Martin. I don't know about you, but my brain is firing on all cylinders as I consider what are the commonalities, how we can take the wisdom from the other faith traditions and let that wisdom speak and encourage our lives and our spiritual growth as well, and I want to encourage you to do that. I want to encourage you to pray and ask God for direction. You don't have to do what I'm doing, or you don't have to do it simply because I'm suggesting, but what you have to do that's critical to your faith is know that there are different ways, that there are different modes of wisdom, there are different books of teaching, there are different religious experiences that we can all learn from, and that's what this is all about.

Lionel: 52:47

Well, bob, my friend, thank you so much for joining us here on the Words for Change podcast. And again, you guys can check out all Bob's information. His book will be down in the show notes and you can find his book on Amazon, and we definitely appreciate Bob for coming through and sharing with us today. All right, so y'all be good. We'll see you on the other side.