Ep. 76 Pastors and Moral Failure Pt.2

As we conclude this powerful discussion, we invite you to join us in a heartfelt prayer for our community. This isn't just about highlighting problems; it's about fostering a supportive network where truth is spoken with love and accountability.  We dig into the root causes—unrealistic expectations and a lack of robust support systems—and propose actionable solutions to safeguard the well-being of church  leaders and those who trust them. #pastors #moralfailure

Our deepest gratitude for your continued support. Let’s work together to create healthier environments for our church leaders and their congregations. Tune in to gain insights, and encouragement, and be part of a movement towards positive change.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Preventing Pastor Moral Failures
• 16:15 Blessings and Support for Listeners

Transcript

Lionel: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Words for Change podcast. This is Lionel. This is our second episode around the topic of pastors and moral failure, so we're going to jump right into it, as promised, as we talk about what's going on with churches, particularly church leaders, moral failures, any of the things we're hearing in the news, and how can we prevent this. That's the ultimate goal. What steps do we need to take to prevent this and prevent people from being taken advantage of, victims that we're praying for? So let's get into it. One source claims that 40% of pastors polled admitted that having extramarital affairs since beginning their ministry. The same source reports that 70% of pastors consistently fight depression. 50% feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could.

Bishop TD Jakes: 0:46

I'm a country boy, I'm from West Virginia. I don't know nothing about this big time stuff. I just I never even asked to be big. I wanted to be effective, not famous. Famous is the consequences of being effective. I didn't know nothing about being famous and I didn't like it. And the first time I was in the Washington Post the article was so vicious it made me nauseous. I was so shocked that you could say that stuff about somebody you didn't even know, based on assumptions and a little bit of this and a little bit of that. They piece it all together and you don't get the same thing back.

Bishop TD Jakes: 1:26

So I decided I don't want this. I was preaching for Pastor Bishop Donnie Mears and nobody knew it because preachers can override their feelings and function. I preached the places on fire, but inside I want to quit. I told God, I'm through with this. I'm not going through this. I don't need this. I don't see, I don't need that. I'm a guy who likes to go get his own chicken wings. I don't have to have all of that stuff to be happy. So I said I'm not doing this. No more, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this because I don't need this and I didn't ask for this. I'm only doing this because of what happened in my life, of the circumstances that happened in my life. He put me on stage. I didn't ask for it and when I saw how much it cost I thought you can have that right back here. You can have that right back up in here. I don't need it.

Bishop TD Jakes: 2:16

So I was mad inside and I was hurt and I stayed up in the fellowship with the pastors because I didn't want to go back to my room and sulk in my own sorrows. And they said there's a lady down the stairs waiting to see you. The service was over and the fellowship was over. The pastor was starting to leave. I was trying to outweigh her.

Bishop TD Jakes: 2:34

I thought she'd give up and leave and when I finally came down the steps, she was there and she was just a willowy bit of a woman. And she said Bishop Jakes. She said I've been in the hospital. She said I was pregnant in my fallopian tubes and the baby died in my tubes and I was carrying around a dead baby and the toxicity from the baby almost killed me. And she said the only thing that kept me alive was hearing you preach. She said if you hadn't been preaching to me every day, I swear I would have died. And then she looked at me and she said it's for us, it's not for them, it's for us. It hit me so hard I didn't even get her name.

Lionel: 3:47

I got in the car and cried all the way back to my room it's really easy for me to say this is a complex issue, right, and if we were to be 100% fair, give pastors a fair shake and ministry leaders and again, I'm not talking about people who, well, let's say, I'm talking about all of them priest, clergymen, pastors right, some of them know some of the organizations they are part of, are aware of the issues, but they don't address it because it reflects negatively upon the organization and that's a problematic because the pastor gets caught up in that, particularly if you have people who, in higher echelons, who put pastors in places of local ministry, control their lives and thus their livelihood, right. So most of this research shows us is that different generations vary in their perspective. The more modern generations of clergy believe that they're a little bit more cynical about church. You think about kids who leave church after high school or don't want to disassociate with church anymore at all. Okay, so if we talk about preventative measures, right, I can be tongue-in-cheek, but I'm going to say this here are some quick solutions that I'm going to share, and when I say solutions, I don't mean comprehensive, I mean perhaps you, if you have a pastor friend, maybe you can encourage them and ask them tough questions when they step down from that sermon on Sunday morning, instead of you telling them how good their sermon is, ask them questions like how is your regular prayer life? Are you reading the Bible? Are you participating in personal devotion? Is that essential to you? Are you developing strong relationships with God and with people? Do you have a therapist to help you to resist temptation Right? Ask these important questions. Psalms 119.11 says you know, hiding God's word in your heart keeps you or helps you. It doesn't always solve the problem, but it does help point you in the right direction.

Lionel: 6:03

Two, the accountability structures. Right, most churches have elder boards, but your church pastor doesn't need to have an elder board that are full of, yes, people, but it needs to be people who will ask hard questions. Iron sharpens iron. Psalms 27, 17 says so. One person sharpens another. The church board is there for oversight, and oversight means if a pastor or leader doesn't maintain a particular standard that this congregation has set, it doesn't mean that he or she is perfect. It just means we want you to live up to this standard. Pastors have to be clear. Board and church elders have to insist that they be clear and honest.

Lionel: 6:50

I would also recommend self-care, like mental health, get a therapist, taking breaks and vacations and seeking professional counseling. Some pastors may have mental health issues and the worst thing we can do if we're seriously about solving the root of the problem right, if a pastor has a mental health issue, do you kick him out, her out or do you help them work through that to manage stress and balance their lives and family lives. Okay, so these are some important things. So, once again, I'm going to say some preventative measures would be accountability, understanding, spiritual disciplines, self-care, mental health. These are three things that are vitally important Spiritual disciplines, accountability, structure and self-care. If you care about your pastor and you care about their family, then I highly encourage you to encourage your pastor to seek out these three things.

Lionel: 7:46

Okay, some of the other important topics are some pastors may have psychological split personalities. Right, there's a psychological theory that says that personality understanding a person's personality trait as more conscientious can predict more failure. What do I mean by that? If you know you are struggling with man, this is tough. But if you are a pastor and you have these different kinds of struggles, like lust or taking money or being unethical or untruthful about things, knowing that and then addressing that, hey to the board. I struggle with these things before you get hired.

Lionel: 8:34

I think although this is a far stretch and I just I know they're not I mean pastors listening to this you're going to go. You're out of your mind. I'd never get a church if I said something like this. I'd never. If my elder board knew, they'd sit me down immediately. Well fine, because at the end of the day, my goal here is to number one help us to refine pastoral ministry Right.

Lionel: 9:00

The purpose of our podcast is called Words for Change Podcast podcast, and what I mean by words for change is something that was said either by me, a guest that I bring on, or something that is I read, or information that we bring to you. It's going to help you be a more authentic person. One of the reasons why I am not currently serving in a pastoral leadership was because I wanted to see more diversity in churches, and I felt that what was happening in church was just people speaking in an echo chamber right, people speaking in an echo chamber instead of getting out into the world. Then that's a conversation for another day, but what I'm saying is that I wasn't living authentically to myself, so I wanted to change that, and if that meant that I needed to leave church to do that, then so be it. I want you guys to look up Carton Pearson.

Lionel: 10:04

Carton Pearson, lord Rest His Soul, died recently. He was the guy who started the Azusa street revivals pentecostal preacher church of god and christ, I think, is what? What? Uh, the largest church of god and christ is the largest black pentecostal denomination in the world, I think. And but carton pearson was responsible for the introduction of bishop td jakes and some other Gary Oliver, some of the famous Pentecostal preachers, speakers, pastors and worship leaders that we are familiar with today. In fact, I have a cousin who's a singer right now and I remember him singing years ago at Azusa Street and Lord bless him as he's out doing God's work right now. Lord bless him as he's out doing God's work right now.

Lionel: 10:50

But Carlton Pearson had a church in Oklahoma I think it was in Tulsa, oklahoma and God spoke to him about that. There is no hell. Now, I'm not saying that. I believe that. I'm just saying this is. I'm telling you his story. But he believed that the Lord had showed him that there was no such thing as hell. The Lord had showed him that there was no such thing as hell and what? He went to his church against some of his friends in the ministry who told him don't do it Some of his bishop friends. He went before his church and said I don't believe in that, that doctrine anymore and he lost his church. He lost Azusa Street. He lost and eventually ended up losing his family and eventually lost his life. He died because of I think he had prostate cancer, had come back.

Lionel: 11:33

But when you talk with him he's got a book that's called the Gospel of Inclusion. Name is Carlton Pearson, p-e-a-r-s-o-n. Go look him up, bishop Carlton Pearson. He wrote a book called the Gospel of Inclusion. As a matter of fact, some of you who listen to this episode you may be familiar with Carlton. But he said that he just didn't believe those things anymore and at heart of heart he tried. He had grown up a third or fourth generation of Pentecostal. Nobody knew church like Carlton Peterson knew church. He deviated so far away from what his background and religious spirit, tradition and doctrine taught him. But he believed that it was God leading him and he went that way.

Lionel: 12:23

Now I'm not encouraging that for the listeners. What I'm saying is that he wanted to be authentically himself. If that means that you can't serve a church doesn't mean that you can't serve God outside of a church, all right. So listen, I have talked a lot and I just want to encourage you that being a conscientious pastor, knowing your failures, knowing your shortcomings and putting them forefront can maybe help chisel out a more healthy leadership posture. Ongoing education is essential. The days are long gone to calling the seminary the cemetery. Young people today want sensible religion. They want sensible Christianity, they want sensible spirituality, something that they can live authentically into for themselves. But it still allowed them to be an effective citizen and to maintain their personal integrity right and then foster an environment of transparency. I just shared that a moment ago.

Lionel: 13:30

So today we've explored the causes of. You know, we talked about more failure pastors from a biblical perspective and I've talked about it from a psychological perspective, and we discussed the importance of spiritual disciplines, accountability and self-care, and I want to encourage you to implement these. If you're a pastor listening to me, please reach out to me. I would love to have a conversation. If you need a friend, or if you know you have a pastor who needs a friend, please reach out to me. I would love to help, to assist, if not anything else, just to be a listening ear and a chaplain corps. It's one of the things that we do all the time. We talk about the importance of self-care and being able to tell each other really what's going on in our lives and our family lives, and that's a very healthy culture, because no one's expected to be perfect. We're expected to be authentic.

Lionel: 14:17

Ok, so I want to encourage you to implement these strategies and let us work together to support leaders and hold them up to integrity, but not just for the sake of criticism, but to provide opportunities to strengthen their character. Just as pastors and leaders who stood in the gap for you, prayed for you, who helped your family get through financial difficulty, who sat at your bedside and prayed for your husband while he was sick with cancer, or who came to visit you late at night when you were in jail and nobody else was there to help you. Or that one pastor or that one leader who went into his or her own pocket to help bring you out of the miry clay, to bring you out of a place where you had no answers and nobody was there listening to you. These are the people that I'm talking about. There's a lot of good, just as though there are preachers out there who do horrible things. There's a lot of good ones out there too, so let's close in prayer.

Lionel: 15:28

Father, I thank you for listening. I thank you, god, that you've given me the insight to at least have this conversation. It's a tough one, but I pray in your name that you help those who are struggling not only their pastors, but the victims who've been abused or taken advantage of. But my efforts here may not be in vain, because, at the end of the day, what we're simply doing, we're trying to do in your name, is to help make us all better so that your church can be more healthy. Better so that your church can be more healthy, so that, in turn, communities, states and our nation and our world can be a better place.

Lionel: 16:15

I thank you for everyone who's listened to this. I pray your blessings over them, that you would speak to them, give them wisdom, insight and courage to not just criticize but to speak truth, with the spirit of love in Jesus name, amen. Well, thank you guys for listening. Remember, let's strengthen each other, strengthen our resolve and support each other, and I salute you until next time. I see you back on the other side. I salute you until next time I see you back on the other side. I wish you all the best. The stories, interviews and opinions of this podcast are independently owned by the host and guests and are not supported by the Department of Defense and are not intended to be taken as medical advice or replace medical care from a licensed professional when appropriate.