•Check this Podcast on Youtube: wondered how to achieve that elusive perfect dead drift or what it feels like when a mighty Atlantic salmon takes your dry fly on the surface? Join me as we navigate the ins and outs of fly fishing, with expert guidance from seasoned guide David Hartlin. We'll unravel the intricacies of line management, the adrenaline rush of topwater fishing, and the satisfaction of tying your own flies. From the thrill of battling powerful stripers to the dance of a fly on the water, our discussion promises to deepen your appreciation for the sport and equip you with the wisdom to elevate your angling skills.
As we wade into the world of fly fishing, we'll explore the unique challenges and rewards that come with pursuing steelhead and the vibrant dance of striped bass in our river ecosystems. Our conversation takes us through the mastery of the strip set technique, the divisive perspectives within fishing communities, and the unspoken patience required when guiding novice fishers. Whether it's the strategy behind a salmon rise or the laughter shared over an unexpected catch from a botched cast, we weave a narrative that connects the personal joys of fishing with the broader strokes of environmental awareness and the conservation of these magnificent creatures.
But it's not all about the catch; it's about the journey. In this episode, we balance the art of angling with the demands of family life, and the importance of understanding the value of collectible gear. We'll share stories that cross the spectrum from the pragmatic to the profound, touching on everything from DIY stripping baskets to the migration and lifespan of the Atlantic salmon. So whether you're gearing up for your next excursion or simply seeking solace through a fisherman's tales, our podcast is here to offer insights, laughter, and a fresh perspective on the water and life itself. Don't miss this casting call to adventure, knowledge, and the shared passion that unites us all.
•Check this Podcast on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/nn6Gp_q_5u8?si=1IhyXFkwSqLfSiCt
•David Hartlin Gram:
https://www.instagram.com/davidhartlinguiding?
igsh=MTV0d3duOXE5c2Frcw==
•Davids link tree:
https://linktr.ee/Davidhartlin?fbclid=PAAaZFdyE_XJ4ZjUofFqi2B-FpejIE-Isl_HCe6m_oCmYTIz9jzuWcPMxCzOo_aem_ARtOd0T3eF3nZOA0NvWWqelIU4U6zPt0GpKlxYGroCsIIOa90tMr02flUZ5FIFByxbk
•Intro by: Dan Taggard
https://www.instagram.com/dantaggart?igsh=NTdyNGE3ZXhoM2J3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKcqxxUkjYA
•Check this Podcast on Youtube: wondered how to achieve that elusive perfect dead drift or what it feels like when a mighty Atlantic salmon takes your dry fly on the surface? Join me as we navigate the ins and outs of fly fishing, with expert guidance from seasoned guide David Hartlin. We'll unravel the intricacies of line management, the adrenaline rush of topwater fishing, and the satisfaction of tying your own flies. From the thrill of battling powerful stripers to the dance of a fly on the water, our discussion promises to deepen your appreciation for the sport and equip you with the wisdom to elevate your angling skills.
As we wade into the world of fly fishing, we'll explore the unique challenges and rewards that come with pursuing steelhead and the vibrant dance of striped bass in our river ecosystems. Our conversation takes us through the mastery of the strip set technique, the divisive perspectives within fishing communities, and the unspoken patience required when guiding novice fishers. Whether it's the strategy behind a salmon rise or the laughter shared over an unexpected catch from a botched cast, we weave a narrative that connects the personal joys of fishing with the broader strokes of environmental awareness and the conservation of these magnificent creatures.
But it's not all about the catch; it's about the journey. In this episode, we balance the art of angling with the demands of family life, and the importance of understanding the value of collectible gear. We'll share stories that cross the spectrum from the pragmatic to the profound, touching on everything from DIY stripping baskets to the migration and lifespan of the Atlantic salmon. So whether you're gearing up for your next excursion or simply seeking solace through a fisherman's tales, our podcast is here to offer insights, laughter, and a fresh perspective on the water and life itself. Don't miss this casting call to adventure, knowledge, and the shared passion that unites us all.
•Check this Podcast on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/nn6Gp_q_5u8?si=1IhyXFkwSqLfSiCt
•David Hartlin Gram:
https://www.instagram.com/davidhartlinguiding?
igsh=MTV0d3duOXE5c2Frcw==
•Davids link tree:
https://linktr.ee/Davidhartlin?fbclid=PAAaZFdyE_XJ4ZjUofFqi2B-FpejIE-Isl_HCe6m_oCmYTIz9jzuWcPMxCzOo_aem_ARtOd0T3eF3nZOA0NvWWqelIU4U6zPt0GpKlxYGroCsIIOa90tMr02flUZ5FIFByxbk
•Intro by: Dan Taggard
https://www.instagram.com/dantaggart?igsh=NTdyNGE3ZXhoM2J3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKcqxxUkjYA
If I have the pooled myself or I'm guiding my clients have pulled myself. I go down through on a traditional swing with a wet fly. But then I fish to dry fly coming up river. So you're casting fish can't see you you're casting and the fly and the line is all coming towards you. So you don't get no drag on your fly, you're getting a perfect dead drift. But that also poses the issue you have to strip in that slack. So when the fish takes, he comes up, he takes, he rolls, you set the hook, you instantly have line management. If that fish turns and comes down river, which most fish usually do, now you have slacks, now you're stripping in the line or backing up over the river. And when you're backing up over the river, now you're stepping on your line. So line man, line management is Is right there, key with being able to cast.
Andrew Barany :Welcome back, dead drifter. I know I've taken a long time away from doing any podcasts, but it's all In good reasons. That being said, we got some new things going on. I will be uploading some of my podcasts to YouTube, depending on if people are okay with me using the video. And then also, out of the hundred episodes that I have Done over the past two years, one thing I've noticed is that the anything that has to do with spay fishing or casting or whatnot Gets the most views, so I'm going to start kind of angling towards a lot more space stuff, whether it be trout, spay or chasing steelhead or or salmon on the spay rod.
Andrew Barany :You want to do it now? Okay, luca has something to say. You're well, you're going to say it with me. Oh, I'm going to say it with you. Well, that pretty much sums it up. So on YouTube, it will be dead drifter society, just like on Instagram and everything else. And yeah, luca's pretty excited, aren't you buddy? Yeah, there we go. Well, I hope you enjoy this episode and I will see you down at the end and you're all good on your end.
David Hartlin:Yeah, everything seems good on this end, Yep right, right on.
Andrew Barany :Well, welcome to the podcast, david Harlan. How's it going?
David Hartlin:Hey Andrew, how are you? Thanks for having me. Thanks, you're good. It's a little cold, chilly winter set in here. We don't have much of a winter fishery here, so pretty much Todd flies and Look for clients.
Andrew Barany :You're in Nova Scotia. Currently I'm in Nova Scotia, Okay and that's where you guide out of I.
David Hartlin:Guide for striped bass out of here and a little bit of fall Atlantic salmon. But my predominant part of my business is on the West Coast and Newfoundland for Atlantic salmon. Oh, that's awesome yeah.
Andrew Barany :Yeah Well, why don't you kind of take me down what's currently happening? You said it's winter there, so it's mostly finding clients and tying flies. What are you kind of working on these days? Fly wise.
David Hartlin:Fly wise. I'm just working on regular orders and an inventory for future clients and my website and stuff like that my, my flight time stuff, pretty much which regiment same stuff every year. You know I'm not going to try and reinvent the wheel. We got salmon flies that work awesome and I'm not going to try to make new ones.
Andrew Barany :I guess that's your time, or are you tying kind of more of a modern?
David Hartlin:modern variation like, so, the traditional salmon flies that most people think of when they think Atlantic salmon, or you know, you're a classic featherwing salmon flies and we don't fish with that stuff at all anymore, like I don't. Maybe some Scandinavian countries might still use some of that stuff and and and and Britain and stuff like that. But here, particularly in Newfoundland, you want small and sparse like I'm talking like, for instance, like a Tiempo 799 book, like a number 10 in July, so, and sometimes you might even tie short on that for low water style. You're getting down there with some pretty skinny flies like you know, half a dozen strands of loose hair in the wing, a little bit of crystal Flash, that's right. Like you don't need much to catch summer salmon in Newfoundland. And then once the water warms up, man, you're onto the dry flies like small bugs, bombers. Bombers are probably the number one go-to fly for Atlantic salmon in this area. Yeah, and when they start taking them off the top, man, that's when things start to get alive.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, topwater salmon is definitely a thing. I've only had a coho a few times where it successfully worked out, but Boy, was that a rush.
David Hartlin:Yeah, no, it's, it's wild in Atlantic salmon. I mean there's, in my opinion I'm kind of biased because I'm what I would consider myself a salmon junkie. I Don't think there's anything else out there like it. I mean you hook a fish on a dry fly. You watch him come right from the bottom of crystal clear water, comes up, takes a textbook, takes it back down. You set the hook, he does this thing and right over the water he comes, tail walks and all like you know the head shakes and the big run. So you're getting the. You know you're getting it.
David Hartlin:The dry fly take, which you know you can get with trope, you can get top water with predator fish and stuff like that. None of the predator fish, except for smallmouth jump, you know. I mean I've never really seen. I Mean I know Pickerel, jump and and sorry, chain Pickerel and pike and stuff like that, but I mean there's nothing like an Atlantic salmon. And then you get that head rushing. You Know where they're shaking their head and trying to throw that fly. That's giving you like the salt water aspect of how strong he is. And then when he takes that run and first down through the pool, then it's like a bone fish, then right, so you're getting everything all in one.
David Hartlin:Like I fish tarpon I mean I've fished all kinds of salt water species and a few different places and Tarps, I mean the closest thing that gets my adrenaline going to Atlantic salmon. I mean hook and tarpon and having something like 25, 50 hundred pounds come out of the water, like he took it right at the boat. Now he's Three, three feet above me and I'm standing in a boat. Right, this thing's got skills spread out. I mean that's a rush. I don't know if you could hook tarpon or not, or pursued them, but I mean it's a rush so yeah, I mean.
David Hartlin:Yeah, you gotta do that dude.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, oh yeah. There's there's a solid bucket list of species that I need to Atlantic Sammons on there as well, going up any time. Yeah Well, I appreciate that.
David Hartlin:What's the yeah?
Andrew Barany :What's the average size that you're kind of getting into? Obviously there's variants, but yeah.
David Hartlin:So the way salmon runs generally work is you'll get, you'll get your big ends come in the rivers first. So on the rivers in Newfoundland will talk Newfoundland first, the rivers in Newfoundland you're predominantly looking at. You know eight to 14, 15 pound fish with your hens and then you know the next. The next stage of the run would be your grills, which a grills is basically a four-year-old salmon, basically that went to the ocean for only one winter and came back to spawn the next spring. So that would generally run about three and a half to five pounds and those are the. I mean obviously there's a lot more of those. So I mean that's the majority of the fish that you're gonna hook is a three and a half to five pound range. And then I Mean there's there's several places that hold fish that are over ten pounds consistently. Yes, they're obviously the harder ones that get, so usually a little bit smarter.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, yeah, they've been around the block. And what's for your program, like for your guiding situation? What do you usually set up? People like singlehand space.
David Hartlin:Majority of what I recommend most guys bring would be like a six to an eight weight, nine foot single-handed rod. And Then there's opportunities in some of the rivers and some of the pools that we fish to swing big water. So you know, bring that. You know 12 and a half foot, I'm gonna say 12 and a half foot, six weight switch, something like that. Okay, that would be, that be an ideal two-handed rod.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, yeah. And once you're kind of fancy, what? What's something you just love doing, like the spay?
David Hartlin:I love, I love actually single-handed spay. I like it's like that's something I only got on to in like the last five years really. Yeah, really wish I hadn't known that 25 years ago. But. Yeah a total game changer.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, it's, I like singlehand spay. I always bring my two-handed in my singlehand when I'm out fishing. I predominantly work with the two-handed, but I still. There's little scenarios where it's a little tighter or something and then the singlehand gets busted out.
David Hartlin:But yeah, here in the fall, here in the fall in Nova Scotia, you're not dry fly fishing, so it's, it's all pretty well swing and you're swinging flies such as, like a GP general practitioner, marabu flies that are similar to, like intruder style kind of flies that you'd use for steelhead. So you know you're on a sinking tip For the most part and you know your cast don't swing and so in the fall I gravitate to the two-handed rod just because it's cold, it's, you know you're more lethargic, and stuff like that. So the least amount of effort that you have to put in the casting and, let's face it, casting sink tips is much easier to do with a, with a two-handed rod. So I definitely fish in Nova Scotia. In the fall, all I Would say 95% fish, two-handed yeah.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, that's no, I know what you mean. It's definitely when you're a singlehand spay and you're like trying to go up like bug size or something or more weight, weight on the sink tip, it Starts to play out throughout the day. I mean even, yeah, and the rod by the last hour of the day, or Cast are starting to kind of come down in quality and 100% man, and I got a really bad shoulder.
David Hartlin:Oh, I got two that aren't really great, just worn out over the years, just like commercial lobster fished and commercial how the fish. And yeah, vagillion casts with the, with a single-handed rod and I mean shot, gonna shoot and everything. So my shoulders, like everybody, they get worn out and man, I tell you it's almost effortless with the two-handed rod. Again, I wish I had to get on to that a lot sooner in life too. But this, this, this whole area here on the East Coast to know of Canada and they, it's just, our rivers aren't Set up for big cast for the most part, like most of our rivers. Yes, there's big rivers, like the Humber River in the Marguerite and Nova Scotia places like that.
David Hartlin:But I Don't know like in my experiences in 25 years of guiding and guiding people that really know how to fish with a two-handed rod, it's pretty darn hard to effectively fish a dry fly, in my opinion, with a two-handed rod. So, with the majority of our summer fishing being dry fly fishing, the single-handed rod is definitely an asset over two-handed rod. So that's just my opinion and there's I know there's a lot of guys out there that you know Could probably drop a dry fly right on a dime with a two-handed rod every time and but my experiences most most guys can't effectively cover a pool the efficient way that you can with a single-handed rod.
Andrew Barany :So yeah, yeah, that's something I'm I'm going to be getting into this year's trout spay. I keep saying that every year, so maybe this one is the real year that'll happen. But I was literally pondering that like two days ago, or else, like Damn, like I can you know aim where I'm going with a two-handed rod, for sure, but I'm not like Hitting you know, like you said, a dime accuracy, accuracy.
David Hartlin:Consistency is my issue. Like, yeah, I'll be going down, I'll be going down through sample to head. It run by no stretch of the imagination. But I even say I'm on a scale of one to ten, ten being the best Two-handed caster. I probably I'm somewhere between one and two. To be honest, like, yeah, I just, I just don't have a lot of casts in my arsenal and stuff like that. I kind of stick to the ones that I know and stuff like that. But it's a, it's, I like it. But my problem is is I'll be going down through a pool. I'll have Eight absolutely perfect casts and then the and then the next eight I'm looking around to make sure nobody's watching me like it's like I got absolutely no consistency with the two-handed rod and that's just surely from, I would say, mostly lack of Early education. I probably created some bad habits already and which is, I mean, which is fine? I still get to fly out. I still enjoy the biggest thing about fishing man, I just enjoy it right.
David Hartlin:Yeah but you know I'm I'm pretty darn accurate. With a single-handed rod like I'll, oh Pretty well put the dry fly where it's got to go just about every time, unless a big gust of wind comes up the river. Hey man, we're fly fishing and we love wind, don't we?
Andrew Barany :yeah, it's our best friend.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, no, it's. It's definitely one of those things that you know spea, casting Well, and casting in general. You know people don't realize how important it is right off the bat. They're kind of like, oh, I just need to get the fly in the water so those bad habits can form pretty quickly. And then, yeah, well, I need to learn how to cast better. Then you go into like getting lessons and stuff, but now you're, you know, stuck on this. You know I've seen it. A lot of words just like slight little misguided information or, you know, thought process even me this year with spay, through talking with people that you know, our spay fanatics Just hearing and like watching videos of some of these like let's call them elite casters. My timing's gone so much better. So, like now I'm more on the side of you know, out of ten casts it's solid five of them are just mint and then two of them are yeah and then three of them are like what just happened?
David Hartlin:looking around, Usually looking around to see where my fly is, because I got line all wrapped around me.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, exactly, but I rarely like, even you know, that old saying where it's like you need to have your fly in the water to catch fish. As long as my fly gets in the water, whether I get a knot in my line and I have to untangle it and then half my swings done, I might not move down the river or, you know, keep working, I might do that cast again, but I still fish it like it's the best cast in the world. So I'm sure you've done it where you've just, you know, botched a cast and next you know you got a fish rising to it or you got, you know, Well, here, here, here's what I tell everybody, and I I developed this very early on in life.
David Hartlin:I figured it like okay, this just makes sense. If you're going down through a pool and I was back there 10 feet and I'm fishing, I just fished that water, that will say is 30 feet out front of me. So I'm still trying to fish 30 feet walk distance after I've just walked down 10 feet. If you botched a cast and you strip in 10 feet to get all that mess out of the water, you're just fishing the same water that was good enough for you to fish five minutes ago. Yeah, there still could be a fish there.
David Hartlin:Yeah, this doesn't always take a flood, while salmon they certainly don't always take a fly the first time it goes over, yeah, so just don't. My biggest pet peeve is when guys make a bad cast. They riff it right back out and cast again. Yeah, and that's more. Strip all that line, that slack line, out, and just let it swing out of the strike zone. Yeah, and make your cast again. I've hooked a lot of fish on a botched cast that I've just Fixed you know what I mean and fish it out, like you said.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I've noticed it's like, Especially with People that don't fish rivers, often when they get on my raft and we're going down the river, they'll cast out and they'll hit the water and I'll be like, kick, leave it. And they'll already be ripping it off because in their mind they could get another five feet out and it's like, oh you know, you gotta, you gotta avoid that, like you know, whether it's a dry fly or a streamer or nymph or whatever it's like.
David Hartlin:It doesn't matter, the fly, it's the line, and like they see everything, man, I mean these, these fish. All their danger, all their danger, for the most part, comes from above, yeah, so they're always looking up to make sure you know what I mean. So now, all of a sudden, something just landed there. Well, yeah, a lot of things can land a stick falls off and lands, and you know what I mean, but the stick doesn't make a big slosh when it comes back up over the water, because it doesn't come back. I put it a lot, or it sinks and just drift past the fish right, yeah, always let it drift past.
Andrew Barany :It's a, it's a discipline, though you learn that over time. You know, you know you finish, you're watching them and you're like, okay, you make a not great cast and you rip it off and you watch them swim away or move down river or up river and then it's like, oh, I just scared them. The landing of the cast, even though it's terrible or whatever, that's fine, but the fact that I ripped it off, um, especially the bigger fish, you know, the ones that are paying attention and and aren't as like worried about their next meal.
David Hartlin:Uh, especially like, especially like brown trout, like I mean, let's face it, they're one of the most skittiest fish. Skittish fish there are right. So I mean, if you probably screwed it up when you botched the cast anyway, but if you pulled it back over there, yeah yeah, you sealed the deal. He ain't covered right like a wild brown trove, is Not gonna come for your fly after that.
Andrew Barany :No, no, they uh, yeah, brown trout, you bastards no.
David Hartlin:You know that's kind of my opinion on all trout. I'm not a trope guy at all, like no, I've guided in two of the best places in well, definitely in north america for for Wild trophy brook trout. I couldn't wait to get out of there, man, it's just, it's not my thing. Like you know, I'm Sammon um, and then here in Nova scotia we got an unbelievable spring run of big strike bass. Yeah, and like all the money that the like new england eastern seaboard of the united states, like all the money that they're put into their stripers Is awesome because we're we're benefiting from it up here too. I mean, uh, we've got Pretty good restrictions on them here to maintain what we have In trying to coincide with what they're doing on the eastern seaboard, which slot limits and and retention limits and stuff like that. But uh, man, we got some serious strike bass here and and that's you know I love fishing those like they're so big, they hit hard, they fight hard, they're just a solid fish from the time you hook them to the time you release them, uh, like the whole bit. So I really enjoy those.
David Hartlin:And in that same river it also holds while brown trout and Sometimes you'll catch them and like I'll catch trout, and it'll be, you know, 16, 18 inch Brown trout like most people would love to catch, that I'm catching on like a great big ugly Striper fly. Then all of a sudden I'll uh, I'll hook this trout and or my client will hook the trout or whatever, and we'll get it in and I'm just like it's like my client will have oh man, that's so nice. Can I get a picture? I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm taking the picture. I'm like, okay, put it back, let's get, let's, let's catch a big fish, yeah, yeah, it's um.
Andrew Barany :Well, I've never done strike bass, so let's run. Let's say I was coming out for strike bass. What's the season? What gear should I bring and what should I kind of expect for, like, finding them in the river? Is there? Are there in the rivers? At that point, right.
David Hartlin:Yeah, so it's a tidal brackish river so I target the tide flow each day. That's what I pretty well try to target. We've Ken weed, which I do from time to time in certain spots, but predominantly I'll run a 14 foot flat bottom John boat and Put the boat in high in high tide and then we run all the way up the river and then we find where the fish are, like the big schools of fish, and then we just follow them down the river as the tides fall and we just fish for the For the next five, six hours till we get back to basically where we started and then. But yeah, so that's that's right here in central Nova Scotia so it's like 20 minutes from the helifax Stantfield international airport has flights coming from, you know, all over the world, sometimes in certain places, but certainly direct flights from major hubs like new orc, toronto, calgary, places like that.
David Hartlin:So guys will fly in, I'll pick them up at the airport, we'll have accommodations arranged for them before they get here and stuff like that. I'll pick them up at the airport, get them all settled in and then, depending on what time they fly in and what time the tides are, we may fish that day or the next day We'll we'll saddle up, get in the boat and run up the river, find where the fish are and, uh, I have Client rods there so people don't have to bring rods if they don't want to Set up for fly fishing. Some guys do spin fish, but I'm set up predominantly for for fly fishing gear for guys to have, and we're using saltwater lines. So I'm actually using tarpon lines. Okay, I haven't found I personally haven't found a striper line yet that I like, um, so I'm using tarpon lines.
David Hartlin:Uh, and I've got 10, nine foot, 10 weight, uh, saltwater predator rods. So, wow, they're, uh, yeah, and even some days we're hooking fish that I really wish I had a 12. Okay, like these, these things are tanks, like when you open they just want to go right to bottom. And they get to bottom. Then they realize okay, I'm only in a river, I'm not in the ocean anymore. So then they just they're screaming down river like Pull anchor and chase them someday like. So these are like we're getting fish up here like 15, 20 pound, righto to the saltwater, still feeding, and they're just screaming fish angry.
Andrew Barany :Oh yeah, yeah. Well, that's pretty, that's pretty epic. I mean, I guess do people find it pretty hard to like be tossing a 10, 10 weight rod all day long, or Uh, nope, because you don't really have to cast bar the biggest.
David Hartlin:Uh, because I'm putting your right on the fish in the boat. Uh, the water's really muddy, the fish aren't scared of the boat. Um, the best time to be here is, uh, they actually shut um the river down for retention, no bait, so you're only allowed artificial lure, fly only, catch and release only, and that takes a lot of people off the river. So all the guys that you know that are fishing for sustenance because they like to fish, or the guys that are fishing with bait because they that's what they like to do, they like to sit in their chair, cast over the bait. It's great camaraderie for for people like to do that. Uh, but those people are gone off the river from may 10th to june 10th, so we got a month there. That is, uh, it's spawning, so that's why they're not allowed to to use the bait or more than just a single hook.
David Hartlin:Um, so the fish are spawning then and it's crazy, man like, uh, there's a lot of fish like last year they started to roll. It was, uh, the long weekend in may here was. We call it rolling because they come. I don't know if you've ever seen how strippers Spawn, but the female will come up on the surface and she'll just start to roll on the surface and then the males will come up and roll over the top of her. So you're sitting there, yeah, you're sitting there.
David Hartlin:You take your paddle, you stick your paddle in the water, you just start going back and forth like this in the water and then you'll have like 10 pound stripers like the males will come up and start hitting your paddle. And that's crazy, it's not, it's like thinking it's the female. Yeah, yeah, so uh, the best time, in my opinion, to come up would be from the first of May until about I mean, the fish is still really good to 15th of June. But the river started to get busier again because you're allowed to fish with debate and stuff like that. So I generally I fish from the first of May or in guide, from the first of May until the 15th of June, and then from the 15th of June I'm going to Newfoundland after that for Atlantic salmon.
Andrew Barany :Okay, yeah.
David Hartlin:Yeah.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, as far as fly selection for the stripers, these are big streamers, yeah.
David Hartlin:I'm mostly throwing like big, like EP flies, like peanut butter, not the the eat.
Andrew Barany :I'm sure I don't know.
David Hartlin:I don't know if you know, peanut butter is like an EP fly black on the top, purple on the bottom.
Andrew Barany :Okay. I haven't seen that one, but it's a tarpon pattern, okay. Okay.
David Hartlin:And you know, like lefty deceivers, all that kind of stuff. Now, with my experience with the, with the deceivers, you'll catch a lot more fish, but you'll catch a lot more of the schoolies. I'm another fly that I really like to fish a lot, especially when the big fish are really starting to feed good, as a water temperature gets up. I'll use like articulated and to be 10, 11 inches long, multiple sections similar to like the game changer. Yeah, so it'll have all the segments, but it'll look like a big eel, be bigger on the front and then it tapers out just to you know craft fur coming off the back and it looks basically just like a big long clump of hair. But when you put it in the water, oh man, it just comes alive. It just comes alive and it just looks like an eel. Like an eel. That's like 10, 11 inches long and the small fit like. I never catch schoolies on it, but you'll always catch the big fish. So for me when I go, I'm not interested catching schoolies, it's great fun, but I'm out there basically to target big fish and and when you throw that out, let that sink down, and when you start to strip it back in my head because that's pretty much predominantly what I saw. When I'm stripping that back, if I feel a tug on the other end, I know it's a good, so that makes it. That makes it all the more fun too.
David Hartlin:Right, sometimes it's a really dirty river. When I say that, I mean like, well, dead heads in it from the tide washing in and out and stuff like that. It's being funny. So it's the highest tides in the world, like we get, you know, 28 foot difference in tide from low tide to high tide. Yeah, wow, crazy, that's insane.
David Hartlin:I've seen tides like that is on Gava Bay up Northern Canada. So yeah, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. In the river itself it fluctuates on average daily about 14 feet by tide to low tide. Wow, we actually get a tidal bore. So when the tide changes and comes in the river, the current in the river be going out towards the ocean. When the tide turns and comes in, we'll have like a tsunami wave that comes up the river. You can see it rolling coming up the river and then, as when that goes by, the current's going in the opposite direction because the tide is faster than the current coming out. So it flows over the top of the, over the top of the freshwater and you'll just have like this, you'll just have this rogue wave going up up the river.
Andrew Barany :And it's like oh, yeah, so you're watching you visually, can see it happen. You're like, oh, here we go.
David Hartlin:Yeah, especially in the, in the really narrow spots in the river. And the closer you are to the, to the bay itself, the more predominant that would be, because you know you got a lot more speed coming in and whatever right.
Andrew Barany :Crazy. And then, as far as you said that the straight pass, they swim to the bottom and then realize that they're kind of in a river and not in the ocean. Do they do a lot of aerial, or are they just no?
David Hartlin:aerial. I personally have never seen a striper come out of the water being hooked All I've seen. Like you know, they'll come up on top of the surface like as they're going down river, like they're screaming off line and then next thing you know, there'll be this big slosh and swirl as he's going down, like generally what that is is. He'll get to a shallower spot in the river and he's just his belly hit it or whatever and he's just freaking out and exploding. But they're they're seriously, seriously fun fish to catch on fly man.
David Hartlin:They're like 90% of the people that fish for strike bass around here are all fishing with with gear and I mean I got nothing against people to fish with gear, but anybody that fishes with a fly rod and gear they should really try fishing stripers with a fly rod because it's it's absolutely insane. Like even open water, like I do some guiding and in some open water here for strike bass too, or even from, like you know, there's spots here where you can get out onto, like rock and croppments and you know you get the surf coming in and stuff like that. You can stand there and you can see the strike bass swimming because water is so clear in the ocean. Here They'll be swimming. You can just see like three or four stripers in like the wave as it's rolling in and just pass out to them. Let it sit and strip, strip, strip. It's. It's fun, man, I really enjoy it.
Andrew Barany :I'm going to assume that we're not trout setting. We're Nope, you're strip setting, strip setting.
David Hartlin:Yeah, you all saltwater fish. The reason for that is when, when you're stripping in your in your flies coming towards you, we'll say going away from the fish. When a striper is following it and he eats a salmon and a trope, they'll take the fly and they turn. Hence the reason why you get them in the corner of the mouth with most saltwater fish when they hit, they continue swimming forward. So that's why you're stripping, stripping, stripping, stripping, and then he eats it. You feel, you feel him and then you strip set and then generally you pinch your line against your cork. Yeah, then you pull back with the rod too. So you're doing like a strip and then a wham.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, so you're getting like quite a bit of distance acquired in between.
David Hartlin:Yeah, yeah, because those striper, yeah, because they're still swimming towards you. So that first strip set that might be just enough to take up the slack that he's created by picking up the fly and continuing to move forward. So you got to strip and you got to. At some point you got to make sure that one of these is solid. Yeah, because I mean a lot of hookups come off like really quick with a lot of saltwater fish I mean tarpon being the worst. The top of their mouth is just, I mean, it's as hard as a rock for crushing crabs. That's what their mouth is so hard for on the top. So if your fly happens to be anywhere up there, your chances of even getting the hook into them are slim to none. But their jaw bones and stripers the same thing, like their jaw bones, and there's so much bone there and it's so big that if you don't either get under it, you got to get into it, like it's just the nature of the beast, right? Yeah, it's adds to the ambiance of how hard they're catching.
Andrew Barany :Yeah. So then like, if you you know you stripped and then you pinched the cork or the line on the cork, and then you pull back and you don't feel that it was good enough, it's quickly strip again and do it again, give it a couple, really try to drive that hook in, and then yeah, generally you'll get it on the second one, like, cause usually you're stripping and so there's no slack in your line anyway.
David Hartlin:So it's just that all of a sudden you feel that bump half, say, for instance, he hits it halfway through the strip, yeah, then you only got like six inches.
David Hartlin:Then most lines have a little bit of stretch and then unless you have, like you know, the new core lines that they have out and stuff like that which I mean there's a time and place for them, but yeah, it's just jam that hook in. So I mean, if you're only halfway back in your strip as you're stripping and again you want to hold or anybody that's not familiar with salt water fishing you want to hold your rod out as far as you can in front of you and then you're stripping like this, which gives you the leverage that if you're stripping and your arms out like this as you're stripping, and then he takes it, then you have that room to come back, whereas if you're, if you got your rod right beside you, like this, and you're stripping beside and then you go to do that, pull your rod back, like especially if you've got a bad shoulder like mine you're only getting about four inches of travel coming back.
Andrew Barany :Right, so Okay. So you would kind of like just reiterating that you'd have your rod more so in front of you. You're stripping and you feel full tension. You got like a couple of feet pulled back versus having the rod next to you and only getting correct. Yeah.
David Hartlin:Yeah, anybody that's fished tarpon, would, would or bone fish. The strip set is extremely important and for us, sam and showed anglers, it's extremely hard to retrain your muscle memory. Like man, I cut my teeth on bone fish in Cuba. I fish down there a lot now but when I first started going down there, the guides down there obviously a bit of a language barrier so they didn't always understand what I was saying and I didn't understand what they were saying. But I understood that I had to get onto this strip set and, man, I burnt a lot of bone fish before I got onto that.
David Hartlin:And you learn in a hurry when your guide's standing behind you and he's saying a whole bunch of things you don't know. You don't know what he's saying but none of it's good and you're not really sure whether or not you're actually going to make it back to the marina because he's so mad. Because these guys I mean just like all guides they take pride in, in their clients who can fish, but for them it's insane, like it's highly competitive down there between guides, and that's been my experience most places with saltwater fish. Like you know, for guys like us, we take people out and it's, for instance, a lot of the Atlantic salmon fish is limited to how many fish you can actually catch and release per day in a lot of different areas. So I mean you're bragging about the big fish right.
David Hartlin:When you come back to camp you're like, oh, my client caught a 14 pounder today and you know silver bullet covered in sea lice, you know tail walked four times Like you just tell them this whole story right In the saltwater side of things. When the guides get together, how many fish do you get today? Oh, we hook 26. Is that all we got 32. Yeah, so, and they count fish landed to the boat. So if your client's not on it, the guy, the guy got no story when he goes, oh, I'm sure he goes back, right, yeah.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I've heard that before where it's like you know, yeah, I guess it is a pride thing and like they want to see you catch it. So like if you're you know brand new to fly fishing and you're spending you know five or whatever grand to go fish for bone fish or tarpon and you can't make a cast, they're like sitting there like what is going on.
David Hartlin:Well, you could imagine. You could imagine how long of a day it would be like. And I've been in this situation myself and I mean it is what it is. You help people as much as you can, but over the years I've guided a lot of like prestige lodges and stuff like that where you had like a lot of high-end corporate guests coming in. So it'd be like a corporation bringing eight or 10 people in to fish for a week and half of them people may not have ever even fished at all before in their life. They're showing up with a new pair of waiters and a new fishing jacket, a new rod, new reel, and I mean you can tell, like when they're getting out of the float plane or whatever, like, okay, that guy's new, because all his clothes still have the wrinkles in it from where it was folded in the packaging, right. And I mean, hey, man, everybody deserves an opportunity to try to fish.
David Hartlin:I don't want to try to disrespect that, but think about this guy showing up at a place where it's you know, $8,000 American to fish for a week.
David Hartlin:Yeah, he has no idea how to cast. He's not in for the type of week that he might think that he's in for Like yeah, and I feel bad for those guys Like I can only give you so much instruction on casting. Then, after that instruction comes to practice, well, you're here for $8,000 a week and you're practicing and paying $8,000. You really should have been on to this six months ago or a year ago, when you knew that you were coming on this trip, found somebody local and went out for a couple of lessons and then you can just practice in your yard, like as long as you have enough grass or you know you can go to a local park or something. But practice is something that, like you never want. To go on a fly fishing trip without any experienced fly fish, I mean it's yeah, it's just going to hinder your week and you know everybody around you might be catching fish.
Andrew Barany :Like there's a couple casts yeah.
David Hartlin:There's a couple casting lessons. I mean it's going to be highly beneficial to you. So in saying that, like I said, we had, you know, I've had guys show up that had absolutely no experienced casting. And the one nice thing about Newfoundland, with Atlantic salmon and the rivers there, it might not be exactly the best spot, but there's places there where I can take guys that if you can cast 25 feet and you can just and you can hit that spot on that angle and just let it swing and then take a step every couple of minutes and go down through the pool, pretty good chance you'll hook a fish. Because I mean Newfoundland, there's a lot of fish there and I'm on, I should say, a lot of fish.
David Hartlin:66% of North America's salmon rivers are in Newfoundland, labrador. So there's a lot of fish there, right? So you should be able to find a few. I target seven different rivers within 45 minutes of my base. So you know there's always a place there that we you know we can usually always find fish. It might not be a perfect day, like you know North wind, dude man, I'd rather just stay in bed on a North wind, like I've had almost never any good luck on a North wind salmon fishing. It's no good for striper fishing either. She's that old friend.
David Hartlin:Yeah, it just changes like. It changes the fish for sure, like, without a question, and most of the rivers that I fish in Newfoundland, if you got a Southwest wind, I believe. I believe that the wind has a lot to do with how fish react, and animals too, but animals more so wind direction and how they're going to travel through a certain area. Because of that wind direction, they're still going to get up and feed, like white tail get up and feed, usually five times a day. So I mean, that's, that's just the wind's just going to dictate which direction they travel, or you know, whether they're traveling on a ridge or whatever.
David Hartlin:But with salmon and I don't know most fish that I fished actually, like, even down in Cuba, like a North wind comes in down there, a North front, you're usually going to have clad, which is kind of a hindrance for for your saltwater fish and anyway it's simply spotting fish. But it's, yeah, man, everything just locks down like stripers, like if you get a rain here, like in the spring, like the water temperatures just starting to come up in the and the fish are just starting to get active and everything's starting to come to life, and then all of a sudden you get a, you know, like a cold May rain, like, you know, a North Northeast rain, and first prior to May or something like that, we'll say you get like 25 millimeters, which is almost an inch for our American friends. That's going to shut the fishing dam for probably about two days, like it's almost like the fish just go right back out to the ocean because the water's warm right there and then they come back in again, like it's a yeah, I mean they're going to come back in there. They're basically two months. I mean they're going to come back in, but on a big rain and if it's cold, like a North wind, you might lose your fish for a day or two before they'll come back in the river or before they, you know, start to surface and get active again.
David Hartlin:Most fish are susceptible to cold fronts.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I mean, we noticed it out here, touching on, like you know, if you end up getting a guide and you're new to it. I was just thinking about that. That I definitely loved when I have a client for two days if they're new, because that first day, you know, especially if it's like our trout river isn't like the main one that I guide on, isn't super long, so like the density of trout, especially rainbows, is up, higher, so as you work down you're starting to see a little bit less and less kind of thing or, you know, there's a little more space in between them. So by the end of the day everyone's like getting good at what they're doing. And then it's the end of the day and you're like, all right, you know.
Andrew Barany :So having that two days has I love when I have a client that's new to fly fishing for two days, because I'm like, okay, day one we're going to focus on technique and like understanding what we're doing and why we do it this way. And then the next day, you know, but touching on the wind as well, I've definitely noticed there's, you know, certain winds that, yeah, they, you know I don't necessarily pay as much attention because I'm still, you know young and new and learning, but there are times where I'm like, oh yeah, that's a cold wind right now and then we're not catching. So yeah, you know, fish just hunker down. I call it like happy fish or unhappy fish and so where exactly are you located?
Andrew Barany :I'm on Vancouver Island.
David Hartlin:Okay, yeah, so we're like. I know you're in BC, but I wasn't sure where boats.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, so we're in Vancouver Island. We got, you know, great salmon fishery, steelhead and all that, and then there is definitely some ocean fishing to be had. We can fish basically 12 months out of the year. You just got to know what you're going for. You know, salmon come in spawned, then it's trout with eggs and stuff like that, and then steelhead will start to come in. So there's always something happening. You just need to know where and what to fish for. But timing, as any fishery, is the key. You know, wait for some rain and then the day after, or two days after, depending on the system.
Andrew Barany :When it starts to clear. Yeah, so like I've been doing steelheading for the last three trips that I've gone out pretty much a Saturday warrior right now and you know no fish but still love being out, like I take more pride on my casting when I'm out and I try to not think of the fish and just like try to get the good drifts going and the proper yeah.
David Hartlin:The thing is, just when you got a day where you know you're going out and you know you're not really expecting to have great fishing If you know that you're going out, those are the days there where you were, like you just said, really focus on your casting. So you know. Okay, so we're going to make this a practice session with, hopefully, the opportunity of a fish taking my fly. Yeah, so when you go on a trip or you your river comes into season, or you know you're traveling to a river that in your area, that okay, now it's games on it's steelhead, like they're in. Right, you just spent like the last five sessions really focusing on your practicing. You're going to be on your game.
Andrew Barany :Yeah.
David Hartlin:You're going to be better than what you were. Head you for the last five or six times concentrated on catching a fish. Yeah, you know.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, and it's interesting because, like you know steelhead out here, you know they're far in between. They're not necessarily the hardest fish to make grab, from my understanding of what people say, but it's locating them right On run. There might be only a handful, and then did they get hooked that day, did they? You know? Is it cold? Is it what's going on? Do you have the? A small fly or big fly, like these things? You know, I'll play into it. So there's definitely times where you know, like last year, I hooked into six and landed zero and they were all off within five seconds.
David Hartlin:And it was a rough.
Andrew Barany :it was a rough pill to swallow. And then this year, you know, my goal is just catching one. So it's like it's a tough fishery. You know, if I'm taking people out trout fishing then I can't you can never guarantee fish. But like in my mind I'm like I know we're going to get something and if it's a good season or, like you know, it's warm and everything's going good, like we're going to season fish almost a hundred percent.
Andrew Barany :But then when we get into, like salmon once again, like I could be like, yeah, we're going to see something, in my mind at least. But then, yeah, steelhead, it's like I'm probably not going to guide for steelhead, for you know, multiple years on my river, just because it's, I'm still learning, like I'm. It takes so much time and effort and really depends on how many times do you get out. If you get out twice a year, like probably not going to get a steelhead, maybe with a guide, especially if you're willing to be like center pin or something like that. Or you know, gear fishing centerpin have you heard of that? Are guys still doing that?
David Hartlin:Oh yeah, Out here. It's a big thing, I thought. I thought centerpinning went out when Justin Bieber went off the top of the charts.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, no, centerpin is a, centerpin is a really big thing out here.
David Hartlin:Yeah, I know I. Just that's why fishers like to chuck shit at the centerpinners, right, oh yeah, yeah, we don't have. We don't have any like there's there. I don't even know what fishery we would even have here that would entertain centerpinning. So nobody here centerpins, right, so it's not an issue here. But I hear, like all these guys coming from the West Coast or even Ontario and certainly Michigan and places like that that I've talked to in there, it's a love hate relationship between them. Guys, man, oh yeah.
Andrew Barany :And we see it out here too. I used to be a little more stale about it, but, of course, hey, man, but the fish we're all there to fish man, that's the thing. The more I like got into it. Like I like Euro nymphing I don't do it Like my heart's more set on bay fishing these days than than doing the Euro thing, but you know, there's a time and a place for it. But at the end of the day, it's like hey, I'm out on the water, I'm wanting to fish, like choose one technique over the other, but I'm smiling like who's to say, right, but yeah, so you know.
Andrew Barany :The one thing, though, is, if you do both, like if you're doing fly fishing and gear fishing, your brain is learning quite a bit. You know you're fishing multiple different waters. That you. You know you can't always swing certain waters. You know you learn where fish lie. You, you take in a lot of information. So that's one thing that I like accepted, and I'm like you know, I've seen it too a lot with, like you know, kind of in the, in the history books of fly fishing and stuff, people that do gear and fly fishing.
Andrew Barany :They come up with some crazy shit, right, they're like oh, I don't tie. You know, back in the day, the pink worm for steelhead and stuff. And now people tie like long pink flies and get steelhead on it because they're like I do this on here, it should work on this. And then so, yeah, there's definitely something we said Adapt and overcome. Exactly, and I mean, you know, like you said, at the end of the day, if you're out there to fish and you're enjoying yourself, then that's all that counts. There's enough discrimination in this world.
David Hartlin:Just let the center pinters fish yeah.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, no, it's, um, yeah, it's a pretty cool fishery out here, definitely, like you know, like anything, strippers learning the strip set, or. Or you know timing and and knowing all these little details. If you don't have anyone to show you, it's just a. You know, I've I've had multiple encounters with people who are, you know, ready to get rid of their stuff and I'm like, well, just try this. Or you know, like maybe get casting lessons or like you know, and then they improve a little bit and then all of a sudden they're catching fish and it's like you know, your knowledge does apply and the more you have of it, the better your, your chances are, oh for sure, 100%. I'm curious. What's the? Uh, um, oh, wow, I'm just blanking because I decided to think of something smart Um, yeah, so what do the, the striped bass travel?
Andrew Barany :What's their? Um, wow, I don't even know where my brain's at right now. Migration there we go. What's their migration pattern? Like we're, you said that they were doing like lots of work on the straight bass down in the US. Assuming that they're, they're traveling down to the US down the coast and then coming back up to spawn in their different rivers.
David Hartlin:I think there might be some that do that. But that's an interesting question because this is a very uh unique system. What we have here I don't think a lot of our fish are migrating all the way down. I think what it is is their stocking programs and their conservation efforts. Um, have really increased their fishery and the water's warming up so the stripers are coming further north. So all those fish that were in the New England area that are used to we'll we'll just say this is my hypothesis on it. Anyway, we'll just say that that certain uh what's the word I'm looking for? Uh, subspecies of that local fish, uh, is used to a certain water temperature. Our fish, like we had uh for years, we've always had straight bass here, but our fish, I don't think they really migrate that far. So I think our fish were used to like our kind of conditions and stuff like that. Now that our water, our oceans, are warming up, on this side, which I'm sure your guys is our tube, uh, I think what it is is all those fish are moving north. Like, as a commercial lobster fisherman, I noticed over the years like Maine always had a much, much, much better lobster fishery than what we did. I mean, maine was known around the world for their lobsters. We now have more lobsters than Maine and it's not because of our conservation efforts or anything like that, cause they're they both kind of coincide similar, except Maine can fish year round. But it's still conservation and our efforts are implemented. But I think what it is is the straight bass have just moved further north, uh, because Labrador and Newfoundland have never, ever had straight bass and they're starting to show up.
David Hartlin:Um, we, we actually have a major problem in a world renowned salmon river in New Brunswick, the Merah machine. There's like a million stripers and I'm not saying that to be exaggerating, like you can look this up, there's drone footage of it, everything. There's a million stripers at the mouth of the Merah machine river every spring. So imagine being a salmon smolt coming out of the river. Virtually almost, almost no predators in the river, because there's no swung with bass. There's no, like nothing, like that. The only predators would be trout and birds and you know, maybe, yeah, so I mean there's nothing, nothing serious. Now, all of a sudden they get out and they got to run a gauntlet of a million fish that eat probably a hundred smolt a day, like I mean, these fish are. You know that's what eat and reproduce. That's all stripers do Eat and reproduce, eat and reproduce. So it's a. It's a big problem for them on that particular system and I don't know what they're going to do to fix that. I don't know if it's going to, I don't know what it's going to do to the salmon fishery.
David Hartlin:But back to the stripers and the migration here. So as I sit here I'm looking at my front window. On the other side of that woods is a big lake called Grand Lake and in that that lake runs all the way down, called the Shubinakki River, runs quite a ways through here and then dumps into the Bay of Funding. This river turns tidal at the moat. So it's a big system. It's clear up here, it's muddy down there the banks are all mud like you'd be walking in mud, like this thick that lake. They estimate 10 to 15,000 striped bass winter in that lake every year and treat that lake as an ocean.
David Hartlin:Then we had the Bay of Fundy where the majority of the fish are because they're actually sea-run fish. In the spring those ones come up all due to water temperatures. Right, the ones in the lake start backing down the river by schools of 100, 200. We're talking all these. Majority of these fish would be, I'm going to say, 5 to 15 pounds. If you go down in a kayak and you're going over the top of them, they're beating the bottom of your kayak. There's so many of them. They close that section of the river down when the fish are starting to come down, because of obvious reasons. You're just going to snag them. If you're fishing there right, even fly fishing, you're going to snag them. It's impossible. Your fly cannot get to the bottom because it's just your line's literally going over dorsal fins all the way. That section of the river gets shut down as those fish are backing down.
David Hartlin:Those fish meet the Bay of Fundy fish where the two rivers there's two rivers here, the Shubinak and the Stuyak. They meet where the two rivers converge. That's where they'll spawn. They'll spend like a month and a half, two months pretty much, in that area. As they come down they're starting to mingle. Then the water temperature gets good enough to spawn. Then they'll have another spawn.
David Hartlin:Generally you'll usually see two to three decent good spawning days. Then they'll hang around there, start feeding again. Then in the fall, actually in the summer, a lot of them go to the Bay of Fundy, but then in the fall you'll get all them ones that winter into Grand Lake. A treat Grand Lake as their ocean. They come back up and so you can get on them in the fall. Fall fisheries are a little bit different. They only come up one river. They don't come up the other one. There's the Shubinak river and there's the Stuyak. In the fall they don't walk the Stuyak, they just come up the Shubi and they come back up into this lake for their migration. It's kind of neat we got two completely different migrations right here on this river.
David Hartlin:One migrates fresh water and one to salt water.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, it's really interesting, too, to go from New Brunswick having no straight bass to, all of a sudden, a million on their front door. A million on one river yeah, on one river. It's crazy. I really would like to know what they're talking about. Obviously, atlantic salmon has always been something that the East Coast is proud of and wants to keep around.
David Hartlin:Yeah, that's like Well, we got the On the Marigree River. Now we got straight bass in that river. They don't come right up into the river but they come up to what we call the seal pool. From there down it's pretty easy for them to get into the river. I mean, they're just sitting there, they're eating trout salmon as they're going out. Right, you're literally fishing salmon here, and if you go around the corner it's kind of like a dead water, like a still water. You go down there, get right into striper. There's no trouble. They're all summer. So I mean, if those fish are coming out, they got to try to get by them and face it. They're predator fish. They're good at what they do, right, yeah.
Andrew Barany :As far as like holding water, let's start with straight bass. What's their? Obviously when they're traveling? They're moving Well, but where do they like to sit and relax and catch a breath and get some oxygen and all that?
David Hartlin:They never really seem to stay still. So you'll get them generally on turns, like turns in the river. So it's generally deeper on one side, but then you'll get like deep troughs. It's all sandy bottom in this river. There is some rock, but it's not the rocky river that you would look at. It's more of a sandy, muddy river. At the bottom end, up here is just like a normal river, like a trailer, a salmon stream would be. But down the lower end is completely different.
David Hartlin:So the fish, as the tide starts to fall, as I said earlier, they'll be further up, closer to the clear water, and then, as the tide falls, we start working back down the river. They'll get into spots that are deep holes and on the turns and they'll swim around there for a little while, like I'm just hypothetically. Maybe they'll be there for 15, 20 minutes. We'll see them on the fish finder and we'll be catching them and stuff like that. Then all of a sudden it just pull anchor, go down river until you find them again and then, when you find them, drop anchor and start fishing away. They'll move up and down the river and they'll settle in the pools and then they just swim around in circles and if there's baitfish there, like that same time here in the spring, there's a lot of gas burrow. I don't know if you know what those are, but they're like a little bit bigger version of a herring, a little bit smaller version of a shed.
David Hartlin:So they're in the herring family, they're baitfish and they're coming up by the millions and you could be sitting there and then all of a sudden you'll start to see like this and V on the surface of the water. You'll be like, oh, there's a striper coming up, right, you can see them when they're cruising, right, the big guys, they're not very far from the surface. When they do start to cruise and you'll see them coming and all of a sudden you'll see it disappear and then, right on the shoreline you'll just see all these fish just starting to explode like right, because the fish are trying to get away. And then they hit the shore and then they got to go right or left and what it is is it's the striper's bus and they're going in and the school of fish. Yeah, it's crazy, but so, yeah, they're chasing baitfish around. There's eels in the river, so I mean they're just feeding machines, so they're always looking for food. I wish they took the fly as good as what they took a live herring or a live gas bro.
David Hartlin:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's pretty hard to compete with the lot with something that's actually exactly what they've just ate a million of in the last hour. So yeah, but no, they take flies really good. We had days where we could hook like 10 or 15 in a tide and then you have days where you're struggling to get one and they're always there. You see them. Like you know, fish finder with side view I mean you can sit there and look at the fish finder. You can see all the fish that are at that side. You can see the school of baitfish over there as you're drifting down the river. They're there, you can see them. Or maybe even you're getting a few bumps or a couple of guys are catching them here or there or whatever, but they're always there at that time of year. Sometimes they're there in higher numbers, depending on like the water temperature and stuff like that, or whether you had a big rain, like I mentioned there earlier. They're always there. So you're always fishing over fish or we're always going to be able to find where the fish are.
David Hartlin:But some days are banner days and some days can be complete duds. But on an average day, with fly in a six hour tides five to seven hours, depending on how the tides. Some days you get a bigger tide and you get a little more time that you can fish, and then some days it's not as good of a tide. So we got to get down river so we can get the boat out right. So on an average it's a six hour fishing day with the stripers and a decent caster. He's going to probably put the hook into two to five fish on an average day and then, like I said, you have your days where you just you can't buy a fish and then you have your days where you can't keep them off the end of your line, right.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, oh, fishing. That's what keeps us coming back, though I was, like you know, I have one.
David Hartlin:It's not called catching man, it's called fishing.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, exactly, he's pretty new to fly fishing and I took him out and he got lots of trout and then he went out by himself and he only got a few and he was like, oh man, like must have been a bad day. And I was like, well, you're also on a boat, like moving down river and like had a guide telling you where to cast. Like you know, things come in time, but not every day is great. You know, if I have a day off, it's probably not going to be a crazy fishy day. You know, if I'm working on, like wow, look at what's going on right now, this is crazy, yeah, but Kind of like yeah, yeah, it should have been here yesterday, should have been here yesterday, Last week, you know two weeks ago.
David Hartlin:I think next week is going to be the best week. I think the run will be in next week and you're like, yeah, well, I'm here this week. I didn't need you to tell me that. Let me figure that out. I don't need the bad news to hold to me.
Andrew Barany :Well, man, the amount of times I've gone, like, especially on this island. You know family and all that. So you get the days, you get, and you're like you know. I look at some of my friends who don't have kids or whatever, and it's like they're waiting for rain and then they get a go, they go up Island or something, and me I'm like, well, I got this weekend and it's blown out. I'm going fishing, I guess, and then I'll stand there with blown out water like tossing a fly and hoping for something you know. So it's yeah, I personally go out when I got time, whether it's going to be a great fishing day or not, because for me it's like, you know, the last time I got about?
Andrew Barany :huh, you got young kids. Yeah, I got two kids, and then one's four and one's 11.
David Hartlin:So you still got a while yet before you're going to have any real freedom.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, that's okay. He's a, he's into fishing, he's we're shaping them up, then I'm going to just teach him how to row, so he'll just row me around. I got dreams, it's all good.
David Hartlin:Yeah, you gotta have goals, man.
David Hartlin:Yeah you gotta have goals. Yeah, I'm lucky on that aspect. Like I got, I got two kids, one's 20. One's 26. And one's going to be 21. Okay, and so my youngest is still in business school. She lives at home, but she's looking at moving out. I'm going on an exploratory trip, probably in March, and I'm heading to Honduras. Oh, I'm down there to explore because my wife and I are looking at this time next year, actually 11 months from now. We're looking at pulling the pin, selling everything that we have here, and I'll come back to guide in the spring and summer, but we're we're looking at like Honduras all winter. Man, yeah, peace out there Honduras, Honduras.
David Hartlin:Well, I'll just peace out. Winter, yeah, but you guys don't even really get winter there on Vancouver Island. You get a little bit of rain.
Andrew Barany :No, not the same. No, we got like this year it hasn't snowed by my house. Last year we had like three feet. New year before we had like four or five feet. It's been a weird winter, like December. I didn't think Vancouver got that much snow. Yeah Well, it all depends Like down in, like Victoria, the capital, at the bottom of the island, like you're not looking at a ton of snow. There's obviously been years yeah, it was everything, but for a bit there we're starting to get like a lot of snow. But this year we've it snowed up by my river, which is about an hour up dry or drive up island.
Andrew Barany :It snowed once it hasn't snowed at my house and I'm like January, february. I wonder what that's going to look like. It seems like the seasons have pushed a month. Fish have been coming in a month later or like three weeks later. The rainy season it did happen and like things got really high, but now it's like not raining a crazy amount. It hasn't been snowing, so it's. It's been interesting seeing the changes. Like it was very consistent for you know five years of when I first got into fly fishing, like you know October time, like you could start seeing blown out rivers more consistently. But this year it's like blown out for a handful of days and then it's maybe more than a handful of days, let's say a couple of times or something, but then it's now it's just been like pretty consistent. Like I was out yesterday once again sorry, because I was supposed to be recording with you so.
Andrew Barany :I don't even. Yeah, anyways, fish brain, that's what it is. I'll chalk it up to that, but I'll take that as an excuse, that's totally fine. You know, it's not the, usually it's not me that forgets, it's usually someone that was like oh, I'm so sorry, conditions were good, I went fishing and I'm like no worries, try to try to lock down a fisherman here battling.
David Hartlin:Well, to be fair, to let the viewers know, not only did you box, I kind of botched too, because like a week ago we were actually supposed to do this on Boxing Day but we had a power outage here, yeah, and it was like obviously I couldn't let you know. We had a power outage because I had no way of communicating, we had no internet or anything. So then all of a sudden everything comes back on. There's like messages coming in from Andrew and I'm like, oh oh, oh, oh, yeah, I got a message right away. Let him know. Like you know.
Andrew Barany :sorry, but no, and I mean, you know, I used to get like when I first started the podcast I'd get so stressed and it would be like a big deal in my mind. But now at this point I'm like, yeah, I took a, like this is going to be the first episode in like almost a month and a bit. I didn't plan on taking such a long break, but I got to episode. So I always set, or I've been setting last few years. I've been setting goals for myself, whether it's in fishing or you know, financial or whatnot, to kind of guide me towards where I want to go.
Andrew Barany :So originally it was get to episode 50 and then it was get to episode 100. But when I got to episode 100, I was like, oh shit, I didn't really like set my next goals and then I was going on my honeymoon in Mexico and then it was my son's birthday, and then it was Christmas and New Year's and I was like there's just so like I had my mom staying in this room here. This is my fly tying and fishing room now. So you know, I just kind of was like, instead of stressing about it, I was like, you know, and people, the podcast is still doing good in terms of. You know it's getting more than half of the normal download, so like people are still listening, which is great, I just kind of took time off of social media a little bit and like it takes a lot of work.
David Hartlin:You know, I started a podcast during COVID and it's called the guide shack chronicles and man, it was doing good. I had, you know, I had all kinds of like big names and stuff like that. Things were, you know, rolling real good. And then my season came along. I had some podcasts already, you know, set aside in the bulk there to pull out during that time, which I did, but during that time I didn't get any more recorded.
David Hartlin:It's gone to the back burner for a little while right now because I got a couple of other irons in the fire. One of them is, like all, my website. I have obviously all my, all my guiding my services. That I do, yeah, and I have a booking agent side of that. And right now my goal and I've been working on it a lot in the last week but my goal for 2024 is to build that with really good, reputable outfitters and guides and that I can work with. And over the years I've I've got a pretty good list of clients that I've guided and guys that I've met in camp that you know I stay in touch with and stuff like that.
David Hartlin:You know good email based on on my website. So anybody's listening. You got a note fitter, shoot me a message and maybe we could work together. But yeah, I'm looking at growing that side of it. I love talking to people about hunting and fishing. I've been to, I've been to numerous places so you know, I know the different types of fish in the fisheries and stuff like that. So I want to try to help people build their trip and just cause I like doing that stuff, like you know, somebody tells me oh you know, I want to go on a. You know I want to fish. For you know, permit, I shouldn't have picked that one.
Andrew Barany :You went, you went you went.
David Hartlin:You went, you're a steelhead. You were saying you went six and O for landing. Yeah, I haven't landed a permit yet. But I could sit here and tell you some horror stories about permit. 90% of it was all my fault. But yeah, dude, I haven't landed one yet. And I had a screamer on in Cuba. It was just like this Hail Mary trip there a few years back.
David Hartlin:And when I go to, when I go to these places, I generally like I don't stay on resorts like the all inclusive stuff, so I I like staying in town, seeing the culture wherever I go. And so anyway, it just happened to have we were doing something else that day and it fell through so decided last minute okay, well, let's just go fishing. And so I called up my buddy that was a guy and I said there's a man, we're going to come pick you up and we're going to go fishing If you're available. He said, yeah, man, come on, let's go. He said it's a little bit late today, but that's okay, we'll go. When I say late in the day, it was like I call them at like 730 in the morning. We still had like an hour to get to where we were going to go, but we weren't taking no boat, it was just a waiting trip, right.
David Hartlin:All of a sudden we get the car, we get out there and he brings me to this like lagoon, right, and it's like there's no water at all, like I don't see any water anywhere, it's just all mud. So we start walking through this like dark gray, almost black clay mud. That's about like two inches thick. There's like wild boar tracks everywhere and I'm like dude, where's the water? He says you come, you come, you follow me, we promote. All of a sudden we come to this perfectly round lagoon. You can see the ocean now, like where it gets out to the ocean, and as soon as we get there, we were looking for bone fish.
David Hartlin:And as soon as we get there, we see like five tails sticking up and it's permanent and they're coming right towards us and they're about like 250 yards away 200 yards away, something like that, right, but you can see them just playing this day coming right towards us and they're getting closer and getting closer and I got my line all ready to go and I'm like this is going to happen. This is awesome, right? This was the last trip that I actually did for permanent, or the last opportunity I had at a permit. So anyway, they're coming towards us. Three of them break off. There's five of them. Three of them break off, go towards the middle of the lagoon. The tails disappear. Don't see them again. They do keep coming towards us.
David Hartlin:So he's like you ready, amigo? I said yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyway. He says okay, you cast. So anyway, I cast. He said let's sink. So I'm letting it sink, let's sink.
David Hartlin:He says strip, strip. So I start stripping like that, and one of them just turns like that. He's coming right for my fly like wide open, grabbed it, I set the hook. My guide's now screaming big fish, big fish, big fish. And I'm seeing it going Like after I jammed the hook, and I'm seeing it heading towards the middle of the lagoon and I can tell this is a nice fish, right.
David Hartlin:I'm like, oh my God, this is wicked. But I had stripped so much line. I got the line between my finger and the core so I got tension and I got all this line coming up. But because of the friction it's like jumping and he's screaming. He's screaming right and I got 25 pound test floor carbon on the end. He's just going, going, going, going and the last loop comes up and hooks the handle on the reel and it snapped that 25 pound floor carbon like with a sewing thread. Yeah, my guide will watch that. He turned around and looked at him. He goes Amigo, he goes that fish. He says at least 20 pound permit, at least 20 pound permit. I'm like I don't need you telling me that man. That's not making me do any better about this situation, but I've hooked three real nice permits and I've never landed one.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, fine management on. Just from watching videos of permit or bone fish or any tarpin and stuff, you finally hook one. Amazing, awesome, you fooled the fish. That's sick. Now you've got. If you're making an 80 foot cast, you've got roughly, let's say, 40 to 60 feet of line. Next to you You're standing on a boat and you now got to manage that as this thing's taking off, your heart's pounding. Like I said, the stars got aligned. I mean, when I'm swinging for a seat.
David Hartlin:You want to know the real fun one, andrew. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about that 40 feet of line there. Now most guides won't let you wear shoes in the boat, so you can feel it. Not just that, you better hope that line, as it's stripping out, doesn't hook one of your toes. You know what an align burn feels like on your fingers.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, it feels like between your toes. Yeah, yeah, no, I've done social fishing. I'm very familiar with line burns. I can only imagine in your toes they don't need that.
Andrew Barany :But yeah it's you know line. Even yesterday I was. I wanted to see how my day of fishing went, so I was showing her. I drove her to the airport today, this morning, so, but yeah, I was showing her a video of me just casting and she was like oh my God, why do you have so much line in your hand right now? And I was like she's like don't you put that on the reel? And I was like no, like that's what you're casting out. Your reel is essentially to hold the line and then, obviously, once you get a big fish, then it's your drag system and where you're putting the line back on to land the fish. And she was like how do you do that? And I was like I hope that it doesn't tangle up every time and when it does tangle up, hope you get it untangled before a fish grabs it.
Andrew Barany :I mean when you're still heading, it doesn't happen all that often. I mean, I'm sure people have gone tangles and then like been trying to fumble, get it out and then all of a sudden a fish grabs. But when you see a saltwater fish just start exploding and running and our permits, our tarpons just jumping up and the amount of shit going on in that 10 seconds of that first initial, like if that fish runs and you're now on the reel, that's everything went well and you still might not it might bend the hook, you know from what I've seen and talked to people, but like that initial getting that 40 to 60 feet either out or back on the reel, that's crazy.
David Hartlin:And the way I fish dry flies for Atlantic's. I mean you're getting the same situation for when you're stripping with the striped bass here. The advantage to I couldn't put a skiff in this river here. I mean you couldn't put it in, couldn't take it out. It's just there's no real good boat launches for that and it's too, it would be too shallow at low tide for a skiff. So we're running a 14 foot John boat. There's lots of stuff in a John boat for your line to make it get tangled, like it's not laying perfectly flat on deck. You don't have like the all them fingers sticking up to keep your line from blowing and moving around. So you have those problems.
David Hartlin:But the way I fish dry flies for Atlantic salmon, if I have the pool in myself or I'm guiding and my clients have the pool in themselves, I go down through on a traditional swing with a wet fly. But then I fish the dry fly coming up river. So you're casting fish, can't see you. You're casting and the fly and the line is all coming towards you. So you don't get no drag on your fly, you're getting the perfect dead drift.
David Hartlin:But that also poses the issue you have to strip in that slack. So when the fish takes, he comes up, he takes, he rolls, you set the hook, you instantly have line management. If that fish turns and comes down river which most fish usually do Now you have slacks. Now you're stripping in the line or backing up over the river. And when you're backing up over the river, now you're stepping on your line. So line management is right there. Key with being able to cast and then deal with the line that you have in your hand. You got to put those two things together, and the faster that you can put those things together, the more effective you're going to be at, for sure, landing fish.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, right. And then it's a big thing. Like you know, I do a lot of Euro nymphing during the winter for my clients and that's such a thin line, right. So when they're casting, you know, and then they turn side, or they pull in and turn sides, they're instantly tangled around their feet. So I'm like okay to do line management if I say, switch sides, well, you're in the water, just flick it over, kind of thing. And then when we're using like you know, your typical like if someone's streamer fishing off the raft, well now you got, you know, fast casts happening constantly. So you need to know where you're putting your line and you know are you keeping your feet planted? Are you moving your feet around? Because that's the biggest thing, is the second you move your feet and you're trying to, you know, make a long cast and quick, and you know that's so yeah.
David Hartlin:Stripping baskets. Huh, do you use stripping baskets?
Andrew Barany :On the raft. No, I've thought about it, I'm I mean for myself, I'm very handy, capable. I guess when it comes to comes to like my line management, I'm quick to it. If, like, I do get a tangle or it's around my foot, I like don't need to look away. Necessarily I can, you know, I can manage it. But for people I usually try to kind of give them a bit of insight.
Andrew Barany :But I've seen those stripping baskets that go on the front, or like when I was on a hardshell drift boat down in on the Bo River with a guide there, paul Morale, he's, he's awesome, you know, he had this little like, I guess, a stripping basket at the front of his boat which was like super awesome. Because you know, if we're using a sinking line for streamer fishing and it goes off the raft, then it's going down in the water, you're not going to get your cast out. But no, my, my raft is. I still need to get to front stand up bar, which I'm planning on doing this year so people can stand and do more streamer fishing, because it's it's a little hard to streamer fish from sitting, as I'm sure you kind of know. Oh, yeah, for sure, definitely. But then of course, more bars, more things for things to get tangled up on. When I do ocean fishing, like in estuaries or whatnot, then I have my stripping basket, definitely.
David Hartlin:Have you seen the stripping baskets that you make out of, like the little kids stepping stools? No, you got one of those. Your kids got a little plastic stepping stool in front of them, yep, and then you flip it upside down. It's curved on one side, perfect for going against your side. All you got to do is make a couple slits to put a belt in it and it's stripping and makes it. I've got a couple of them made out there for clients, like when you're in the boat and I just you just clip it on and it's, it's all it is. You just go to Canadian Tire or or Walmart or someplace like that, and they're just a plastic stepping stool and then as soon as you flip it upside down and you look at it, you go huh.
Andrew Barany :Stripping basket.
David Hartlin:Do you put water?
Andrew Barany :in your stripping basket. I've seen people that do that.
David Hartlin:I'm not really sure why I usually end up falling down. So there's usually water in there.
Andrew Barany :Things happen on a boat, that's for sure. That's a good point. I love little things. I mean I, I, the stripping basket I got is what brand is that. I don't remember the brand, but it has like it's flat, and then it has all these little like plastic rubbery things that stick up and so your line kind of like hangs off of it and they don't have to be.
David Hartlin:They don't have to be flexible, they can actually be rigid. Yeah, so what I've seen some guys do with these stepping stools like I'm talking about, particularly the ones that they sell at Canadian Tire that I've seen, they're green and white. Yeah, when you look through it there's like a rubber side on one side, but when you look through there's there's holes that matter that rubber stuff. You take a drill and just drill through, make holes and then from the underside coming up into the stripping basket, just hot glue golf tees.
Andrew Barany :Love that. Yeah yeah, that's simple and, like you know, you can spend a hundred dollars or you can spend like 20, $30.
David Hartlin:Well, I don't have a problem buying a good stripping basket. But the issue here is we're fishing in, like I said, all this muddy water and it's salt water. I know they're salt water safe anyway. But you slip and fall a lot If you're fishing from the banks. Most of my clients don't prefer to fish that way. We fish from the boat majority of the time, but when you're fishing from the bank, sometimes you slip and fall. And if you slip and fall and you hit your stripping basket, it's a pretty good chance you're going to crack it. Yeah, I'd rather crack a $10 homemade one than a $100. Like you know, if I was out in the ocean all the time, I would probably have one that's more exactly designed. Maybe they're a little bit bigger, so when you're stripping you're not missing over the side. That's all going in and stuff like that. But let's make shift ones that I've made over the years. They work pretty good.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, no, that's good. So a little DIY project that you can take on and could improve some line management. Yeah, it's pretty crazy to like, you know, I think back when I first started like even stay fishing. I used to always like go to cast and somehow the lines like between my legs. I was like I'm in you know two feet of water. How did it get between my legs, who knows.
Andrew Barany :But you do get better at it the more you do it or at least think about it. Like, when I'm teaching people, I like to try to figure out how they learn or how they envision stuff and then I kind of try to talk, you know, towards that, angle it towards that, because I had a hard time learning in school because I just didn't learn the way everyone else or the average person was learning. But that gave me the ability to see that, you know, not everyone learns the right. They're the same way. So when I see someone trying to like manage or not even thinking of their line, you know I'll give them the half part of the day where I'm not even worrying about their line management necessarily. But then once they got the casting going and all that, then it's like okay, when you strip, make a point to strip, you know, to a certain spot. Now you know, do your cast and think like this is where I want my line to be.
David Hartlin:So when I go to cast and it flies around, and you should be able to do that without actually looking at where it's going Like just pick a spot, get used to that.
Andrew Barany :Muscle memory will grow pretty quickly, you know. And then if I got them for that two days that I loved so much, then that second day, you know that first half hour they're getting back in the groove of casting. They're probably better than they were at the end of the day the day before Because they're arrested and it's not so much mental power to remember these things. And then you know that second day can just be, even if the fishing wasn't great. It's just like they feel way more confident, way more like efficient with it. But yeah, stripping basket on the boat, that's definitely crossed my mind. So I like that little. You know you could easily have that in your drybox or whatever.
David Hartlin:Oh, a hundred percent, yeah, and you're having a bit of a tough time. And if you put it, yeah, and if you put it in your drybox and you have it, bucket weighs up, you just fill that. So I mean you're not really losing any space per se, right? Yeah, I'll send you a picture of the one I got there when we're finished there.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, please, and thank you, that's good.
David Hartlin:Yeah, I just took an old webbing belt and just weave it through Like I had to.
Andrew Barany :Well, you're even your weighting belt. Is that what you're meaning?
David Hartlin:Like you're weighting belt, you could even yeah, but the problem with most weight belts these days, like especially if you're buying like Sims weighters or something like that they're big, thick, neoprene ones. So all you really need is like a one or an inch and a half webbing like an old school weighting belt that we probably most people have a thousand of them sitting somewhere. Then you just got a couple of little slits. I'll show you in the picture and, I don't know, maybe you could share with your social media or whatever too. But yeah, it's very simple. Like from the time you get home from Canadian Tire, you literally have it made. If you got a Dremel tool, two minutes, two minutes yeah, yeah.
Andrew Barany :And then, if you really need your special brands, just get a sticker from your shop and put the sticker on it and then you feel good, yeah, yeah, it's. I got stickers all over mine. You would know what brand it is.
David Hartlin:I love.
Andrew Barany :I was planning on doing that with my drybox, just like covering it in stickers, but it's I cover everything in stickers.
David Hartlin:I'll send you a couple of months. I got decals. Yeah, Shoot me your address and I'll send you a couple.
Andrew Barany :For sure. Yeah, I need to make more stickers. I've been putting off a lot of spending lately this year. I'm trying to get back on top of everything and, of course, christmas Like Mexico, or the son's birthday Christmas, new Year's, those are. So I just went through the thick of it and now I'm looking for this upcoming season. Okay, I got fly tying materials out the wazoo, I got all the rods I need, I got lines I need, I got enough hooks and everything. I'm like okay, good, I don't need to spend any more money, but that's when you can save a dollar and make something for a quarter of the cost of buying.
David Hartlin:My biggest fear is Andrew.
Andrew Barany :What's that?
David Hartlin:That when I die, my wife's going to sell all my fishing gear for what I told her that I paid for it. Oh geez, that does sound scary. Somebody's going to be getting a good deal and some rods.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, yeah, exactly. That makes me think I got a bunch of polar bear from this lady. Her grandfather or her father, I guess, passed away and she had a bunch of fly tying material and we went to go pick it up and she was like, yeah, I don't know what it's worth. And I looked at it and I was like so you know, that is actually worth quite a bit. This is just a polar bear.
Andrew Barany :Oh, nice, long short, all the fluorescent colors, natural colors, so much polar bear. And I was like that's worth a lot. I don't want to pay a lot, but I'm letting you know that's worth a lot. And she was like, don't worry about it If you're going to use it. That makes me. I'm sure that would make him happier than getting more money for it. But yeah, people don't know. Like I've seen some rods and stuff go for so inexpensive when it's like a crazy something. I had a friend that got like a really old bamboo rod that was made by like a really nice bamboo rod maker, which I don't know his name, but got it for like a hundred bucks and it's probably worth. Who knows.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, it's better than somebody throwing it away, oh could you imagine, oh, man In the garbage, man and seeing this rod and you know you'd be like what's happening to this one, like the crab, yeah.
David Hartlin:Well, here's a perfect example of how stuff can easily just. My uncle used to do a lot of work for the RCMP for a Hioenitone company and like when people would pass away. Like, say, an older gentleman passed away, his kids didn't hunt or anything right, so his wife would call hypothetically call the RCMP and say you know, my husband passed away. I have guns here in the host that were his. You know, nobody wants them. What can I do? I have taken a torch because there was no other option. They bring them in to the RCMP, the RCMP like just to get rid of them. Then the RCMP would bring them to us and I'd taken a torch and cut guns in half that were worth thousands of dollars, like old collectors guns. And like this woman, if she had to, just found somebody that knew what she had and for any of the ladies out there, find somebody that knows what your husband had, make sure that it gets to the right person that would appreciate it and that you get the value for it.
Andrew Barany :There's.
David Hartlin:yeah, I can assure you, ladies, that over and under that, your husband has, and he told you he paid $200 for he paid $2,000.
Andrew Barany :Yeah well, and then, like you know, if he has a whole room dedicated to his hobby, there's a chance, pretty good chance, that that stuff is actually worth more. You know, either maybe it's not even worth that much money, but to the right person that's worth insane. Like you know, an old reel that you might look at and be like, oh, this is just a super old reel, like whatever, but that old reel is actually like one out of you know 50 left in the world. Who knows Right?
David Hartlin:So you know, like, like, like a 1920 Heidi Perfect or something like that, yeah.
Andrew Barany :See, and I didn't even have the fear that you have, but now I have that fear. I'm going to write down a book in case I pass away, and I'll leave that for the wife like. Read this, Read this.
David Hartlin:And what happens if she reads it before.
Andrew Barany :Well, that's a good point too. Oh geez man, this is a fun thing I got to spare room, Andrew.
Andrew Barany :I got to spare room? Yeah, no, and it's at least with my fly tying material. They all have the stickers on them, so at least she can see the depth that I've gone in with that. But yeah, the rods and reels I would you know I've given like I gave my buddy. I took him fly fishing and on the Bo River he lives in Alberta and I ended up giving him a sage rod and a sage reel because I just like he's my, he's basically he's my brother and I just want him to fish and you know he really enjoyed himself. But he didn't really want to spend the money and it was a rod and reel I didn't use and I was like that value of that that I paid, you know, five years ago, don't even care about, but the value of, like, seeing you get into this sport, does he know what it's worth?
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I was like don't sell it, like give it back, Like you just don't want it. But I was like that is he actually like. He used to live on the island with me and we used to go fishing when we were younger, so he does know sage, because the person that used to take us out fishing when we were younger he'd use sage rods for for just searing cutthroat, but just bobber and worm, which I don't even know if it's fully legal, but I was young so I think it is. But anyways, long story short.
David Hartlin:So he did he did.
Andrew Barany :He did see the value in it and, yeah, his first fish was a 24 inch brown on a stream. I like I was in Alberta. Beginners luck, it's a thing, dude, always.
Andrew Barany :And then when I have someone new and someone that's like experienced on the raft, I'm always like, okay, so you know like that's the person that's going to catch that thing that you're wanting to catch. Yeah, but yeah. So we went out to the river. He had never fly fished before and I was talking to that Paul Morrell guide in in on the bow river. I was going to go down the river with him and then he offered to take me and my friend out as well. So I was like perfect. And I was like, okay, like I'm going to, you know, get him on nymphing. And he was like no, just Paul doesn't really or doesn't nymph at all, he just streamer fish and dry fly fishes. And so he was like, just start him on streamer fishing. He has no idea. It's going to be a learning curve, no matter what he does, and if he starts with streamers, that's what he's going to know, and we love streamer fishing. So I was like that's a good point. So I like taught him how to cast a little bit like half an hour in the in the parking lot, and I was like, okay, I'm, he's a smart kid. So I was like I see that your gears are turning and you understand what you're doing. And here's a fly on it. Now I'm just take a few casts with that, showed him how to open up his loops To get on the water. I let him fish like not really that great of water slash. I didn't really know the water that well, but I had a better idea and so I like finally saw him doing what I wanted to see happen.
Andrew Barany :And then we're starting to go down or going under a bridge. He casts out or no, he's casting. On the left hand side. I'm anchored up and I was like, okay, I just want to show you something, so I show him. I'm like I'll show you. On the right side and I got a bump and I was like, oh no, take the rod back, cast back out there and strip it back. And he does that. And then he gets a 24 inch brown and I'm I'm in Alberta catch that fish. And so I was like looking at him, I was like, realize to you, this is just a fish, like you catch pike and stuff under the ice and and you caught salmon with me when we're younger. And I was like this isn't maybe the biggest fish, but like this is, this is kind of a trophy fish for a lot of people, you know.
David Hartlin:Yeah, you should really, you should really take in what you just did here.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I was like this is big and I was like this is going to be the biggest fish of the day, most likely.
Andrew Barany :And we like fished the rest of the day and caught, like he caught like a few more fish and he was like at the end of the day he was like I know I still don't fully grasp what has just happened, but I have a better understanding of like how awesome that was. And then we went out with that Paul guy and Paul was just, you know, guiding him and helping him and he just was catching plenty of fish and was just super captivated. So it was, it was really cool to just kind of like, you know, not just go to the easiest thing, like nymphing and watching a bobber you know your own nymphing and seeing someone that has never fished before, and like costing you know three to five inch streamers plus a double, double fly setup and do great after a few days of doing it. So, yeah, it was, it was good I opened her to like if someone's new doesn't mean they have to start with like what's considered the easiest. They can actually just like learn whatever.
David Hartlin:Oh yeah.
David Hartlin:Oh man, I get a lot of people here that want to go out and like, for example, father, son, they want to experience fishing or they want to experience fly fishing. You know, so I'll take them out for chain picker or straight bass or a small bass, like small bass fishing on the fly. Man, that's, that's. That's great fun, you know it's. It's a great way to introduce people to fly fishing because you'll have interact. You'll have more opportunities at hulking fish. You're going to probably have more hulking, you're going to have more strikes and stuff like that.
David Hartlin:And well, let's face it, most people to get into fishing, you're going to have to show them catching fish yeah, not, not fishing. So they got it. They got to see what the the reward is at the end and then then you groom them into okay, uh, you know, if you want to target Atlantic salmon, then you have to realize that you're no longer going to be catching 15 or 20 fish a day. You're going to be casting and not catching. Yeah, but with. But when you catch that reward no disrespect to the small, no faster chain picker, I mean, they're great, great fisheries and great, great fish to target, but that reward is going to be greater, but the effort is going to have to be put in more.
Andrew Barany :Yeah.
David Hartlin:You know. But to take somebody that's never fished before such as, like I spoke there earlier, doesn't even know how to cast, and you put them on an Atlantic salmon river, they have a lot of things against them already, yeah, and now they don't know how to fish. At the end of even a day or at the end of a five day fishing trip you know, fully guided fishing trip they're probably not going to be sitting there going. I can't wait to do that again. Yeah, they might be. I can't wait to go on another adventure, but I don't think Atlantic salmon. For me that was pretty tough, yeah, whereas if they already had experience, or even just the you know the practice, like I said earlier, like if you can cast, like my favorite people to guide are steel headers, like hard core steel headers they can cast, they can fish and if you show them one fish a day, a steel header is a static.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, oh, my God this happened, yeah, right.
David Hartlin:So they appreciate that one fish when they do get it, but they're never expecting, you know, you know eight, 10 fish a day. Like back when I first started fishing Atlantic salmon, there was no limit in a lot of places on how many fish you could catch and release. So you know, when the fishing was good you could go and you would catch a fish and release a fish catch, a fish, release, but steel heads, not like that and from what I know it was never really like that. I mean, I'm sure there was some times where the fishing was a whole lot better than what it is now. Yes, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like I had a brain fart there too, trying to sound smart, right, yeah, it's difficult.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I guess.
David Hartlin:in a nutshell, it's a tough way to introduce people to fly fishing. Atlantic salmon would be right yeah.
Andrew Barany :But my mom wanted to go down the river. I haven't taken her out yet, but it just hasn't kind of landed up and she's someone that likes warm weather. Yeah, so you know, she was even like. She asked me in the strip. She was like, are we going to go down the river? And I was like to be honest, mom, like I'm sure we'll catch a few fish, but you're going to be cold, Like I'll be in Cranbrook guiding, Like that's going to be warm weather. That's when you should come out with me, because you know whether we're catching a ton of fish or not, it's going to be beautiful, it's going to be warm, but if you're cold all day, and overall experience will be better.
Andrew Barany :Overall experience will be better. And like, if you're. You know, if you're sitting on a raft during the winter and you're sore you know for a lot of people that don't fish constantly the hand motions, holding your arm up, stripping all these things are muscles that you're not used to using You're going to be sore at some point and you're probably not going to want to fish or take a little break. If you're freezing and you're taking a break, you're going to get colder and mental games when you're cold and I can hear what you're saying about the steel headers because like, yeah, we're used to being like cold, no fish. For you know my first year steelheading which is kind of how I started, but I hadn't caught a lot of fish anyway, so it didn't really matter at that point. But you know, three months it took to catch one and the fact that I caught one my first year is insane. Most people don't catch a steelhead on their own without a guide for their first year and I couldn't cast very well. So, like stars aligned. You know the fact that the hook stayed in his mouth, the fact that I found that fly that my buddy tied on the ground and it was like very sparse little thing where it's. All my flies were these big, you know, one pack of flak, marabou and a bunch of flash. You know what I mean. So the stars aligned there.
Andrew Barany :But then my second year I caught two, and third year I caught three. Fourth year I caught four, and then my fifth year I was like I'm fricking the best in the world, and then I lost, or I hooked six and then land one, and now it's the next year. So now I'm, like you know, pretty dialed with the idea of what I'm doing. Can I do? I have room to improve on everything, for sure, but I can stand in a river all day long, be cold and at the end of the day, be like this was a great day with no cash. It's no nothing, you know. To me that's like because, like we were talking about that reward at the end of it, if at the end of the season I get that one steelhead that just you know, basically makes me shit my pants when it happens.
Andrew Barany :I'm going to be everything was worth it, even if I just hooked one. I tricked one into thinking that I had a meal for it. That it means a lot to me, so it's. Yeah, it takes a lot of discipline when you know especially when you don't know if you've never caught a fish and you start on like Atlantic salmon or steelhead or you know a tarpon or bone fish or whatever and you've never even caught a fish in your life. Yeah, maybe, maybe going egg season on trout is the best way to go, you know or fishing, so you can at least see a fish come up and like mess around.
Andrew Barany :I always think about it too, like how many fish, you know, did I swing past that, looked at my fly and was like no, that's too fast, it's too slow, that's too big, too small. Whatever they're thinking, that's actually a good point. Though how do you manage people's not wants but expectations? Do you like? When you first get you know, let's say, a new client, do you talk about them with their expectations, maybe prior to them coming, or generally?
David Hartlin:Yeah, if I have that opportunity to talk and, like you know, if they didn't book through my website and but I mean even still with a book and like, especially on a package trip like Atlantic Sam, you can't book that through my website you have to physically speak to me and and at that time that's what I'll ask. Like you know your expectations, but the biggest thing is is their limitations, like, are you limited to, you know, a short cast, or you're limited to how far you can walk, or you are your waiting capabilities limited? Those are the biggest factors that I want to know right off the bat and then after that I'll ask them okay, so what is it that you're looking to get out of this trip? Are you looking to see multiple venues, such as, you know, different rivers, pools, like I could, like if somebody comes and fishes with me for Atlantic salmon in Newfoundland it's a five day package, so there's seven rivers, so you could physically fish a different river every day if you wanted to. You could certainly have every session on a different piece of water, whether it be a different pool, different river, completely different, like you know, crystal clear water versus a bigger, darker river. So I always want to know what their expectations are in terms of an overall when it comes to the fish. They're limited to how many fish they're actually allowed to catch in a day anyways, which in Newfoundland is the year allowed to release three fish a day. So I mean that's the maximum that they're going to be able to catch and release in a day anyways.
David Hartlin:So my biggest thing is always because I have my venue is so diverse in the river systems that are there like a lot of hope fitters. You know you particularly like a fly in outfit or something like that you go in, you're on that river. That's the river that you're fishing for the week. There is no other river there. There is no other option. So the expectations for that particular customer might be okay. I'm looking for a fly in experience. I don't want to see anybody else fishing. My venues are all public water and they are accessible by locals and stuff which totally does not affect my gig anyways, because I'm Monday to Friday. My clients show up on Sunday. They start fishing Monday, they're done fishing Friday night, saturday and Sundays, when most of the working locals are out fishing anyway. I'm not in their way and they're not in my way and they're not taking up space where my client could be fishing and I'm not taking up space with my clients where the locals could be fishing. So I've built a great respect with the local fishermen on all of my rivers, so that's great.
David Hartlin:So, yeah, for me, I'd like to know what they want to do while they're here, how much water they want to fish. Do you only want to fish two handed? If you only want to fish two handed, then I know there's X amount of areas that I'm not even going to take you because, I mean, it's not a two handed area. So basically, like, yeah, it's just what is it that you're looking to get out of this trip? Do you want to see a lot of back country stuff? Are you looking to learn how to maybe fish dry flies better? And while doing that, you're obviously in some of the best, some of the best Atlantic salmon waters in the world.
David Hartlin:So, yeah, I always want to know what their expectations are in terms of what they want to do over the five days that they're there, because there is options of, like I said, different rivers. Oh man, I've even had some guys that say you know what? Do you know when could we jump in a helicopter tomorrow, like, can we hire a helicopter tomorrow and fly to a spot that you know, that I would like, or something like that, and like I've had guys actually do that hire a helicopter for like half a day to go fishing, like that's fun.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, for myself with the expectations, since it's not my work for an outfit, I usually get a little bit of information about who I'm taking out, either the night before or maybe you know. However, it may work out. So I like to touch on it that day, like when we get there and I'm like, okay, like do we have expectations? What is, what is the expectations? And I always find that someone that comes in with like basically no expectations besides from they want to learn they're going to have a just a great day, like no matter what happens. And that also plays out for myself, you know, when I first got into steelheading and I finally got one, expectations were oh well, I got one. Now I know what I'm doing 100%. Like next time I go out I'm going to get one, and then you don't. And I would you know that drive home I'd be, like you know, not stoked. It wasn't a good day, no fish. But then, as the years went on and I started, you know I guess, getting humbled, time in and time out, I started realizing, like the expectations you put on things, especially, like you know, I haven't done a ton of guided trips, but the few I've done I was at the level of trying to go in with no expectations besides from I want to learn from this guide. And, you know, the first time I guided, or the first time I went down the river to streamer fish was with the guide I work for now on the island. He that morning was like hey, what's your expectations today? Like it was, it was zero degrees last night. Like we just went from you know five degrees at night for weeks on end to zero degrees Maybe not the greatest, you know, streamer day out there. And I was like I don't even care, I'm tossing streamers and I want to learn. You know, I want to see if I can do what I need to do. If I would turn a fish, amazing, if we catch a fish, insane. But, like you know. So I went in with very low expectations and I had a great day. Did not catch a fish. Well, we ended up eroing like one spot, but I, you know, when we were actually streamer fishing, didn't, I didn't even see a fish turn.
Andrew Barany :So trying to place the right expectations for people, especially, like you're saying, knowing their like level of skills, their skill set, you know, if you have no skills and you're expecting to catch, you know the three a day, the Atlantic salmon you're probably setting yourself up for failure in terms of how your trip's going to mentally go If you place your idea on like, hey, I just want to be able to skate this, fly down, that run properly by the end of this trip five days, probably going to see a good result and you're probably going to be pretty happy. And then you know, obviously, if the fish comes along, you're just going to be insanely excited. So, yeah, it's a. It's definitely one of those situations where, like you know, everyone's different. I've had people on my raft who I'm sure you've had people on your boat or raft or whatever that come with no expectations besides from when they want to learn and enjoy the, the adventure. And then you get the one that's like, well, I want this size of fish caught this way. And it's like, oh, okay.
David Hartlin:But that's okay. That's okay if they have a goal, as long as their expectation is reality. Like you know what I mean the expectation of okay, I want to hook, I want to become a member of the 20 pounds club on Atlantic salmon. I want to do it on a bomber drive, like that's. That's pretty specific and that's not something that you could do in all river systems, obviously, and it's not something you can do all year round. So, to find that particular target you're going to be, you might be your, it might be your version of my permit. It might take you some time to get that.
David Hartlin:I personally, I like, I've taught and I'm not bragging, but I've caught thousands of Atlantic salmon. I still have not caught a 20 pounder on a drive flight. I'm only got one fish that I've had in my hands, that I caught one fish in my entire fishing career of Atlantic salmon that was over 20 pounds. Yeah, um, just most of the systems that I fish don't have that quality of fish in them, um, and, and a lot of rivers don't. I mean, there's a lot of rivers in North America that don't hold 20 pound fish. The majority of them actually don't, um, but the rivers that I do predominantly target, you have a pretty good chance of hooking 10 to 15 pound fish.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a. And that's the thing too. Is, you know, like those, like sought after fishes and fishes? Um, you know, when I was in Alberta, I was in 1944 with proper grammar.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, when I was in Alberta and my buddy caught the fish that I wanted and I like passed in the rod instead of, like you know, I got a bump, I knew that like there was something in there and that there's potential for it to eat. Um, again, if, if, it was interested. That first time around, you know, I was like slightly sad. I was like God, that really sucked. But then I was also like I'm so happy for you. This is a weird feeling I'm going through right now. Um, I did end up catching a much bigger one on the swing at night, so I was really sick.
David Hartlin:But, um, I'd fish as a whole other game again. Uh, I don't know, I'll do it with my boat, but I'm not too into waiting. I did it once, man. I did it once on the same river that we striper fish, on way up in the clear water, and uh, there's a night fishing there for the brown trout. So I went ah, this is way over 20 years ago on there and I go up with this guy that I worked with and he was quite adamant at it. He used to do it any chance he could. He really liked the night fishing.
David Hartlin:So, anyway, we go up there and he's down below me in the river and I'm coming down through and I'm probably in the water slightly over my knees, maybe, like almost maybe to my waist or whatever. Right, so halfway between there or whatever, and I'm going and going and going, everything's kind of good, everything's kind of good. And all of a sudden, man, it wasn't a fish, whatever it was, but something swam between my two legs and Jesus might have made the water and Moses might part the water, but I can tell you, dave Hartlin ran right clean over the top of it that night. I don't even think my boots touched the surface. I mean, I was just hover, yeah, it freaked me right out. My buddy goes what are you doing? I said I'm going back to the car. I said feel free to do whatever you want. I'm just going to go for an app. I said but I'm done with this night fishing.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, that's one of the reasons I won't go like free diving in the ocean or something. I like boats, I like being on top. I like night fishing. It's different. Once again, you kind of got to go out with the right expectations, so like you're doing something a hard way. You know, yeah, brown trout are feeding at night, but like now you're casting in bushes or round bushes at night, you're going to get hooked up Like keeping calm is a big thing and all that. But yeah, I probably would run out just as fast as you if something swam between my legs.
David Hartlin:I think it was a beaver's what it was, but I mean, it was like two o'clock in the morning, man, I just wasn't into it. After that I kind of lost the drive for it.
Andrew Barany :You know, yeah, that's funny, though I'd probably run.
David Hartlin:Yeah, I would get out of there quickly.
Andrew Barany :Well, let's go a little bit back on a Atlantic salmon, just because that's what a lot of people think of the East Coast when they're thinking of big fisheries to target. I guess it's kind of cool that the strait bass are starting to be like how. One more thing on the strait bass like 20 years ago, were you fishing for a strait bass in your area?
David Hartlin:Nope, not at all Wow, we had stripers here, but it wasn't to the capacity there now.
Andrew Barany :So the fishery got, it became a thing.
David Hartlin:It always was a thing, but now it's a bigger thing, like it's like 10 times the amount of people fishing, which, from almost none before, 10 times is really that bad anyways, but I don't even know how much the fishery would have grown more than 10 times. We have an extremely, extremely healthy strait bass fishery, so crazy. Yeah, that's a growing part of my business, for sure.
Andrew Barany :And then that's a lot of Americans coming up for that. Are you still getting like half and half Canadians and Americans?
David Hartlin:The majority of my business is Americans because that's where I advertise. But yeah, I get guys like and I had a guy always become a pretty good client now, but he flew up last year to fish just three days because he knew how crazy this fishery had become. He flew up here all the way from Oregon so not only did he fly up but he flew completely across the whole continent to come fish for three days and he had fantastic fishing. Yeah, that's awesome.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, what's the migration of the Atlantic salmon? I've touched on this before on the podcast, but it's been a hot minute. What are they doing?
David Hartlin:So you mean how they actually migrate.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, are they going down? Are they going up? Are they going up? No, they're going up.
David Hartlin:Most fish go up off of, like Greenland, norway. So that's the migration route that pretty well all Atlantic salmon will take, including like fish from Europe. So they pretty much all go to the north. I'll touch on this for a second. This is something that I usually try to explain to people.
David Hartlin:But a grilson and salmon are genetically different. They're not really the same fish at all, except that they're both Atlantic salmon. How's that, dave, you might ask? Well, an Atlantic salmon is born in the river. They spend three years in the fresh water before they become a smolt and then they go to the ocean. A grilse will go to the ocean for only one year. Naturally, he's going to be smaller, but he comes back into the fresh water after only one year at sea and he spawns His first spawning. Check on his scales. So this is all readable by the scales, just like rings on a tree.
David Hartlin:If he comes back to spawn after only one winter at sea, genetically he's a grilse and he will always be a grilse. He might grow to be 10 or 12 pounds and you might think that you just caught a salmon and you wouldn't know unless you looked at the rings on the scales on her microscope. So genetically he will always be a grilse, a true multi-sea winter salmon. Same situation three years in the fresh water will leave and spend at least two winters at sea. Some of them will spend three.
David Hartlin:He'll come back. He'll never come back as a grilse. He'll never come back as a three and a half pound or five pound fish. He's going to come back. He's going to be 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18 pounds, depending on how long he's going. That fish does the full migration. So he goes all the way up off the coast of Greenland, spends his time up there feeding on rich food, shrimp, creel, all that stuff, and then he'll work his way back. Regardless salmon or grilse, they're born in a river. If they're born in a tributary of said river, wherever they're born, they come back. Yeah, crazy, yeah, in the past time I can't find my car in the Walmart park a lot, but they come back to the same tributary.
Andrew Barany :They were born. Yeah, they're at the same rock.
Andrew Barany :They're like, hey, that's my rock, perfect. I know that always amazes me with the enadge misfish. One thing to be like yeah, it's just amazing. It's incredible really. What was my question? I had a decent question, I feel pop back into my head, but I didn't really realize there was too sense of Atlantic salmon. Two genetic breakups, two genetics, but from my memory, if it's serving me correctly, atlantic salmon. When they go into the true Atlantic salmon, when they go into the river to spawn, they don't die. They might go back to the salt or they're usually there to die as well.
David Hartlin:Nope, they're repeat spawners.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, okay. And so how long is their lifespan? It can be like eight to 10 years.
David Hartlin:It could be on a big fish. The big problem is, I think the biggest issue is happening in the ocean, whatever it is, and I think it's the same thing in the Pacific, right, yeah, things are happening out there like predation. We have a billion seals here. Seals are a big issue here. We always had a healthy seal hunt and everything stayed in check. Now, so much that's not in check anymore. Yeah, but that's a whole other conversation. But we, I would say the average fish would be five to eight years. That would be the average life expectancy.
David Hartlin:But now back that up a little bit. We go back to the fish that here or Newfoundland, or majority of most Atlantic salmon, spend three years in the freshwater the first three years of their life. They've now found through studies in places like Angava Bay where their season is so short for the fish to grow. It's these fish here are five years before they go to the saltwater, so they're five years old before they even see the saltwater for the first time. So I think in a place like that you might get fish that are living longer because the conditions are better, the oceans are cleaner, less traffic, less predation. I mean there's not as many seals way up in the Arctic as what there is here where we have open water year round. So I think those fish there are probably.
David Hartlin:You know you might be like the George River. I guided on the George River up that flows into Angava Bay, notably the only river that I've ever been on that flows north. But the average salmon there is 16 pounds. Yeah, okay, so for that fish to reach 16 pounds. Yes, he's going to grow in the freshwater, but if he was five years old before he even went and it took him three or four years at sea to reach 16 pounds, that fish is already nine years old. Yeah, right so, but on average I would say it would be five to eight years old to the average life expectancy of an Atlantic salmon.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think, like you know, salmon out here, you know they're on average a four year cycle. I know there can be a bit of variance on that, but the steel had same kind of thing. You know they can go spawn three times in their lifetime and you know, I think, kind of the same life expectancy slash. You know what's happening out in the ocean. Is it fish, commercial fishing, Is it seals, is it orcas, whatever you know? Can you imagine going out to the ocean and like living in a river and then going out and seeing what's out there? You know, like you got a lot of Everything, wants to eat you out there, right, everything wants to eat you.
Andrew Barany :So, yeah, I think that's what's like really special about you know that type of fish is. They are going to go back out to the ocean, especially if you do proper catch and release and keep them wet and let them rest for a moment and all the things that we're trying to do to keep these fisheries going. But to me, like when I touch a steelhead, I'm literally like you've seen some shit, you know, like in my mind I'm like not only did you make it past commercial fisheries, you've made it past seals, sea lions, heck, probably like all the big rockfish that could eat you if they really wanted to. Everything, man, everything, everything you know possible. And then you made it into your estuary where more shit's trying to eat you Birds, birds, whatever. Then you made it into the river where once again, there's a new set of creatures that are trying to get you. And yeah, it's pretty amazing. Like salmon, I love catching pinks and cohoes off the beach, which coho I haven't caught a ton of, but pinks have caught lots of pinks off the beaches and stuff, and you know it's super fun Once they're in the river it still loads of fun.
Andrew Barany :But I usually start now gearing up for trout and doing other things, just because for me I'm like I've caught my fair share of salmon and they're going to die and I want them to spawn and I want them to spawn the best they can.
Andrew Barany :So I just kind of leave them alone. But you know, when they get really far up into the system whatever system it is like they don't have a ton of energy left. Their bodies are decaying, you know. They're colored up, they're ready to basically spawn and die. And then the amount of nutrients that that gives the river system, the more I learn about it, is insane. I mean, like you're talking the scales on a fish you can tell, like their spawning seasons and stuff. A good friend of mine, tristan, he was talking about how the rings on trees you can tell when there is like large spawns back in the day and stuff, because the nutrients that was gathered from the rivers oh yeah, yeah, the depth that it goes on. How important the species going into the rivers and dying right away and feeding, you know, trout, birds, bears, wolves, eagles, less keeps going humans, you know all the little.
David Hartlin:But it's funny that, like you know, you touch on that, and I mean naturally, 110%, that's correct. But what's funny is none of our rivers have fish that are dying on them, because none of our fish do that. They're all repeats, monitors, whether it be a sea run trout or whether it be the sea run salmon. But our river, like you know, our river valleys, are still lush and healthy and stuff. You know. It's just funny that you know it's such an important thing on the west coast for these fish to die. Obviously I mean, whoever you know, the creator created it that way, but nothing on the east coast has that fertilizer. But yet our trees still grow.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, no, it's very interesting. I mean, yeah, whenever I think they're like, I catch myself thinking about, like how you know a fish can go out to the ocean for four years or something and come back and find their same spawning gravel that they were born in. Like that alone is insane. Like you were saying, you could go park at Walmart and it's a busy day. Where the heck did I park your loss? So, yeah, it is interesting to see the difference in, you know, the west coast and the east coast. On that I haven't really fully thought about it, but now my brain's kind of turning on it. It is very interesting.
Andrew Barany :One thing I was thinking about, like with steelhead, because I know, like on the east coast, the Great Lakes and stuff, with the steelhead, people are like, oh yeah, we've got steelhead here. And then, you know, on the west coast, they're like, well, those are natural steelhead, those are just big rainbows. And then there's always that argument back and forth. For me, the way I see it, is like, you know, if you said there is only, you know, 10 white rhinos left in the world, and then someone was like, oh, I have 30 white rhinos here that are, like, you know, captive, bred or whatever the thing is.
Andrew Barany :It takes away from the severity of the situation. So I think that's where a lot of like the steelhead talk back and forth is like you know, a steelhead is an enagymus fish that goes to the ocean and spends time there and goes and spawns in rivers and goes back to the ocean. So if we, like you know, talk about the exact procedure of what makes a steelhead, then one that goes to a lake and then back to the river would not be considered. But it takes away the severity of what we got going on here because people are like you know, someone that doesn't know is like, oh, there's plenty of steelhead out in the east Great lakes, yeah, and then they're fine, like there's steelhead around, so it kind of you know really steelhead, though they're migratory rainbows.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, exactly so. It kind of just like. You know, all these little things always pop into my head and I'm always pondering, like you know, like we said, with, like the center pin or fly fishing or space fishing. You know, we always make fun of each other and, oh, we got this here. Oh, you do it like that, I do it like this, you know, but the end of the day it's like there's certain things that you know we got Atlantic salmon.
Andrew Barany :We don't want them gone. We don't want all these fisheries that are so amazing and that you know, people like you and me who have spent a lifetime or half a lifetime getting good at we want to see that stuff thrive, Like I would love to see. You know, steelhead numbers grow as I grow up. That would be amazing. You know, same with you, 100%, ear fisheries thrive as you grow up. So anything we can do to preserve them or help them, educate people, take care of it, pick up garbage, whatever it may be, is like you know, we feel like it's our duty on the water and then teaching people good manners. And you know like, oh, there's a guy fishing there and he's like these little things that you know you might overlook. But it's like it's so important to take care of everyone, even if you don't agree with other people. That's right. Yeah, went on a little rant there Got emotional man.
David Hartlin:Hey man, fishing is emotional. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, golf rides are emotions.
Andrew Barany :You hook the same branch 10 times.
David Hartlin:You get happy, you get pissed off. You get cranky, you get more pissed off.
Andrew Barany :Because you're cranky, you talk kinds of emotions in five days, and then you remember that you have an eight-org on to the washroom in eight hours and your feet are cold and you haven't caught any fish.
David Hartlin:Yeah, and you swear you'll never do it again. But you'll get up tomorrow morning when the alarm clock goes off. It's funny how.
Andrew Barany :I was talking with one of my good buddies who I guide with, but we're saying like we're just fishing, and I was like man, you know, out of all the steel head I've caught, which is in a huge number, probably about half of them, I caught the day that or like the moment, I was like it's not happening today, I give up. And then all of a sudden I got one on and he was like dude. I've had that experience too, where I'm like today's not going to happen. And also when you get that fish, we were just joking around like do they hear us? Or I was standing there and I was like I've given up on catching you, you know, just hoping that that swing would produce it.
Andrew Barany :But yeah, there's something about, you know, and I think, that kind of falls with expectation, when you just like let the river flow or the you know body of water, you're on, do its thing and you're just doing its thing and you're more focused on your presentation and enjoying the outside than it. And I think the fish pick up on that man, whether it goes through the, your fly line and that the tingles and there's an energy, electric, electrical force that goes out there and there's like this fly, I think I think I think anytime I believe in like power and stuff like that.
David Hartlin:So I think anytime you're putting good vibes open to the universe, I think you're going to get good vibes back. Yeah, but it's funny you mentioned like what you just said there about you know, on the last day or when you're not looking, you know, when you're thinking, okay, it's not going to happen, or whatever. It brings me back to the story of this. This older gentleman that I guided years ago for for moose hunting actually in Newfoundland. And I mean I got a pretty good reputation with the with moose hunting. I've been very successful at it and like you know, I'd be going in. You know I call my wife's and you know it'd be Sunday and I'd say, okay, I'm going in, I'm going to be. No, no cell service or anything, I won't be open for sure until Thursday. If we got to come and get supplies or something like that, generally every week she would hear back from me on Monday evening. I'd be back to the lodge, trophy bowl, everybody happy and stuff like that. But this one week I was having a hard go man. No matter where we went, like we were seeing animals, but nothing like this.
David Hartlin:Hunter's expectations were going back to that, like when he came at the beginning of the week, particularly with hunting, I always ask guys, what's your expectation? Are you looking for a trophy bowl? Because if you're looking for a trophy bowl, I'm going to be, I'm going to be pursuing him differently than what I would be a smaller bowl, I'm going to be calling differently, so on and so forth. So I want to know. So this guy was looking for a trophy and we went all week, man, we were looking and looking and looking and by Wednesday I'm starting like man, I'm starting to feel bad for you. Like we got shitty weather, I said, and we got a lot of things going against us and stuff like that. I said, but hopefully it'll be today.
David Hartlin:And he started on Wednesday when I started to feel bad about things. He started Wednesday more and he said it only takes one. And then Wednesday night we never seen anything. I said, man, I said it's getting tough. We only got two days left. He looked at me and he go, it only takes one. And it was Friday morning before he got his moose and he got what he came for and it was the only big moose we saw all week. Yeah, but he said it only took one, didn't it? So if you're not expecting like he wasn't expecting, I don't think to see the moose that he ended up getting, because it was a big, big bull, but that wasn't his expectation and it just happened. Like you said, you know some of the best times you've had fishing, or you know some of the coolest moments you've had have been when that's just not gonna happen today and the way you get that session.
Andrew Barany :Yeah Well, in all those times that I ever like let's say, you know, air quotes gave up, I didn't actually stop fishing. That's the main thing. I kept fishing and kept fishing the way that it would work to produce what I was wanting. But mentally I was like, okay, I'm now going to focus my attention to casting or making sure I'm getting that drift that I'm looking for, or whatever you know. Or maybe I'm gonna try new water, even though I probably know what's going to happen there. I'll just fish it anyways.
David Hartlin:And then next, you know, you know it's yeah, and that's a good way to fish if you've only got a limited amount of time. But like when I do my five day trips, or some guys will come for two weeks when I do my Atlantic salmon trips, you can get pretty burnouts. So it's like June, july, so your longest days of the year. You know obviously June 21st, and that's right, smack dab in the middle of my prime time. It's June 21st, so you got the longest day of the year. That's a lot of daylight hours and I don't ever guide from daylight till dark. Anyway, it's like generally an eight to 10 hour day, anything more than that. I mean it's you've had your day right, yeah, you've had fun. But I'll find guys will get burt over after, like day two, day three, I mean it's daylight at 430. So you're getting up at 330 in the morning, right, or four o'clock, depending on where we're going fishing that day, depending on how much time you need to get ready breakfast, the bathroom runs and all that stuff. So what I'll generally like to do to keep guys on their game is, if it's a bright, bluebird, sunny day, the fishing in the middle of the day is no good anyway. So I'll run a split program. So we'll go out in the morning, we'll fish for three, four, five hours in the morning, depending on how the fishing is cloud cover, how the fish are reacting, whether there's sun on the pool that we're on yet or whatever. But I'll fish that. Then we leave, we go back, we'll eat lunch and then do what the salmon do in the middle of the day, taking nap. So then you nap, you get up, you have your supper, that like we'll say five o'clock, well, it's still daylight for another five hours yet.
David Hartlin:And I'll try to get my guys. Sometimes you get these keeners that you know they think, okay, I got to get on the water, I got to get on the water, I got to get on the water. So they'll get on the water, they'll fish in the morning, right after supper. It's five o'clock and I'll go. Okay, guys, we'll probably go around seven. They'll be like, well, do you mind if we just go now? I said, well, we can. Yeah, no problem. So I'll get everything all ready and you know we'll go out and we'll be on the water for we'll say five, 30 or something like that. Next thing, you know they're fishing, they're fishing, the sun's still up. I know the fishing ain't gonna take that Six o'clock.
David Hartlin:Be fishing away, fishing away, fishing away, and all of a sudden it's eight, 30, nine o'clock. I'll look at me. Well, let's go back and have a drink now. This is prime time. This is when we should have been coming. Oh right, yeah.
David Hartlin:So generally what I try to do is all run that split program. Then, if it's a day that it's gonna be cloudy, overcast or rain or whatever, then what I'll do to keep the clients from not getting tired, not getting burned out. If it's gonna be cloudy, it's good in the middle of the day, particularly if there's a little bit of rain Might even liven the fish up, cool the waters down a little bit. So I'll tell the guys okay, so tonight we're gonna. If there's a group of guys like sometimes I have groups like up to six clients traveling together, so we'll have I'll say to the guys okay, so tonight we're gonna fish, then we'll come back, we'll have a couple of drinks, if that's what these guys like do have a couple drinks, sit around the bonfire, tell stories and stuff like that.
David Hartlin:Tomorrow's gonna be not an early day because tomorrow's gonna be a rainy day, so we can all sleep in, we can all get up, have a nice breakfast and then we'll go out, we'll be on the river for we'll say nine or 10 o'clock in the morning and then we'll fish all midday and then come back in the evening, have a nice supper and then, if the next day's gonna be one of the bright, bluebird, sunny days, you fished in the middle of the day today. You slept in the morning, you slept in the evening, you got your good sleep the morning morning you gotta get up at three or three thirty again. You just had really what I consider an easy day because you slept in in the morning, you slept in and had a good sleep in the afternoon, and that it took me a while to just start to push those split sessions like that. And now that I do, like most guys, prefer that, yeah, because I mean, with those long days, man, you get burped out. I mean I know I do as a guy, but I'm also not the one to stand out there casting and casting and casting and if it's really hot and you know you're sweating, you're probably not drinking or eating properly, so you're gonna get dehydrated and all that stuff.
David Hartlin:Take that time, sit down and be on your game, have your helmet on when the game starts. Yeah, don't waste your time like if you're only there for five days or a week long fishing trip, you think, man, I gotta give it as much fishing time as I can. No, that's wrong in my opinion. That's wrong. I know the more time that you're flies in the water, the better chance that you have of catching a fish. But if you're not on your game when the game's on and you're tired, you're not feeling it because you just made a million casts in the heat. You're tired, burnt out. Maybe you just started to daydream a little bit and then all of a sudden, that's when things are happening.
David Hartlin:I like to try to condition my guys over the course of the week too. Okay, this, this. I'm looking at the weather. Going okay, this day here is not gonna be good in the middle of the day, so let's fish early in the morning, late at night, take the middle of the day off, have a nap, maybe even just relax. I mean, take your sightseeing or something like that. It's more relaxing than standing in the river and beating yourself with the sun beating on. You know all that right. And then look at the weather for the day after that. Go. Okay. So this day looks like.
David Hartlin:You know we're gonna have to get up early, so I try to organize their time on the water so it's the most beneficial to them obtaining the goals that they have. Now, if their goal I have people like husband or wife that come, you know, in a situation like that they might not be there for the fish. Yeah, they might be there for the vacation to get away, because they have a busy professional lifestyle and they don't wanna get up early in the morning. They wanna fish from nine o'clock in the morning until you know maybe four o'clock in the afternoon, and then that's their fishing day. That's. All their expectations are is to just fish in the middle of the day and then they're gonna have their supper and don't have a drink of wine, sit by the campfire in the evening or something like that. That's a completely different setup. It's a very easy setup for me, but it's probably not gonna produce the most fish for them. Yeah, but as long as they know that coming in, that's no big deal, right? Yeah?
Andrew Barany :yeah, that's. I really like that. What you got going on there. That's pretty cool because when you see people get tired at the end of the day or whatever, and it's you know, the last chance to be catching fish and they've almost given up like I've had enough, people kind of you know. You see, they're a little checked out. They've either had a good day or it was a tough day and they just don't see it happening and then they stopped trying as hard as they were and it's like that's, you know, it's a tough one.
David Hartlin:So it's either like, yeah, well, food is not a little break, well, yeah, I mean, for you, all you can do is like, if you've got the raft, you can just take a midday break. I mean, for me I'm physically going back to a lodge where they can lay down on their bed and have a nap. That's a big difference, right? Whereas you just have a client for the day and you know for you to do a split day either way, it's gonna be a long day for you guys. Like, you're still awake, you're still up, you're still on the river, you're still in your waders. They're not really getting a chance to relax and sleep. But if you can give them that midday break where you're cooking them a lunch or a snack or something like, where they just take their brain off of the casting and they're not physically using their arms or stuff like that and they're putting calories back in and they're you know what I mean that's gonna totally benefit the latter part of the day.
David Hartlin:Like some guys are just keeners, man, and they just, you know, they just want to fish from the time that they get on the water to the time that they're done. You know whether they feel like they have to because it's the only day that they have to go, or whether they feel they have to because they paid so much money to be there. But I can tell you if from not only experiences of being on trips myself and I'm not speaking, you know, I'm speaking into your listeners, who maybe don't have a lot of experience on fishing trips you're gonna benefit from listening to exactly what your guide tells you. So if he tells you that you know the evening fishing is better than the morning fishing, predominantly, that he's telling you that you don't really have to spend as much time in the morning fishing as what you do in the evening, yeah, same.
David Hartlin:So, yeah, you know fish. You know, for instance I'll give an example Eagle River, labrador. I got it there for years for Atlantic salmon, one of the best places imaginable for catching large amounts of fish. But again, you're susceptible to one river If the runs late, runs early, you know, all those factors come into play. But that particular river and I know some guys would argue this, but that particular river doesn't even come alive until 8.30 in the morning. Like the guys that get up at four o'clock or five o'clock in the morning to go down and fish, they're not hooking a whole lot more fish than the average person's hooking through on the course of the day. Like you know what I mean If they're hooking average X amount of fish in a day. The people that got up and went fishing before breakfast they're generally their numbers at the end of the week aren't much higher.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I've experienced that with, like steelheading, because we have such a good walk and wade like the Cowjain River has such a good walk and wade opportunity that you know if you're not there before light, you're not the first person on that spot. You might even be the second or third person to fish that spot, which doesn't stress me out anymore. But of course, when you're first getting into it you're like I have to be first there. No, but most of my steelhead have been caught after like 12. So you know there's four hours of walking around and doing all that. Mind you, I'll still go do that.
Andrew Barany :If I'm walking away, I'm still waking up early to like get there early and fish, because that's my one day a week or whatever. That's what I wanna do. I don't even care, you know, if it's not the best, but I've full on noticed that most of my fish are once the water's warmed up a bit, you know they're starting to do their thing, whatever it is, and then that's when I'm getting fish. So you know, I try to make sure like okay, I wanna be on this section of the river for this time, because that's where I think that I'll have the best luck and the time wise. I know that the water's warmed up a little bit and I'd like to be there versus you know, come that time and I'm like, oh, let's do lunch or something. Like I'll eat before or I'll eat after, probably way after, and probably drink water way after when I'm leaving the river and use the washroom as well, because I completely forgot if all my bodily functions well-officially, as I'm sure a lot of people experience when they're hardcore into it. But yeah, now with like being on a raft or you know I got my water master I find it a lot less stressful because I'm like you know, if someone's in the spot, I wanna fish, I just keep going.
Andrew Barany :I can fish water that you know. Walk and wait can't really get to. And then I feel more. You know, I don't like feeling pressured, especially when I'm swinging for steelhead, like I wanna all let people go ahead of me almost all the time, because I'd rather like fish it efficiently and feel good about it that way, versus like running through a run just to like make sure I was first and then get to the next run first, and so on and so forth.
Andrew Barany :So yeah, there's definitely an evolution on you know, like you with the timing and stuff. You start to notice things and you start to realize like, oh okay, like it was a cold morning, or it's super cloudy, like we could fish all day, or it's super bright, like this is the time where I would rather not fish and, you know, refuel up and have some rest. That's I like. That I definitely if I was out fishing and, you know, being a guide, I'll always now listen to my guide, whether I think I know more than them or not. I think that's important Never try to guide the guide.
Andrew Barany :Never try to guide the guide, I mean it's.
David Hartlin:But before we get on another tangent, I do have to let you know this I didn't realize how much battery this was gonna eat on my phone, oh yeah.
Andrew Barany :Well, you know what it is.
David Hartlin:And I don't have a plug-in on this phone because I don't know it's full of dirt or something. So I have to charge it with the wireless charger so I can't just plug it in, right? So it just actually just come up to me all we got, and it was fully charged when I got on the phone with you, but it says I got 15% battery left. So I just don't wanna get cut off halfway through conversation.
Andrew Barany :I got other things as well.
David Hartlin:I should be gonna go pick up someone and the viewers probably I mean your listeners probably heard us babble about all their experiences and all of any ways as it is, but hopefully they learned something from it and you're wrapping this up Well.
Andrew Barany :David, it was a real pleasure having you on. I really enjoyed talking with you, so thank you for that and sharing the time that you had and the knowledge and my good stuff.
David Hartlin:Appreciate you having me on, for sure. And we got two things we gotta change.
Andrew Barany :You haven't fished for Stripeback, you haven't fished for Atlantic, so let's get that out in it's twist my arm and I guess for the viewers, if they you wanna go through your podcast and your website and everything to where they can find you. Well, websites.
David Hartlin:Basically it's nice and simple. It's David Hartland H-A-R-T-L-I-N guiding davidhartlandguidingcom. David Hartland guiding all over social media. So it's. I keep it pretty simple, yeah. So just all you gotta do is do a Google search for David Hartland, spelled L-I-N, and I mean I'll pop up. I got a YouTube channel. Everything's accessible through my website, so there's links to everything on there. I got you know there's all kinds of stuff on my website. It's more than just more than just selling fish and trips that I do A lot of different things on there. I got David Hartland guiding TV, so it's got all kinds of videos on there, from hunting, fishing, flytide, instructional gear, reviews, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff on there that people can check out. It does cost you anything. You can subscribe and you'll get monthly newsletters of certain deals on fishing trips around the world hunting trips around the world if you're into hunting too. So, yeah, pretty easy to find.
Andrew Barany :Beautiful. Well, yeah, I'll definitely have that all in the description down below, but it's good for people to hear it. So, yeah, once again, I really appreciate and value your time. So thank you very much and yeah, I guess tight lines, you'll be tying a lot of flies for the next foreseeable future. But, yeah, hope you get on the water soon.
David Hartlin:Yeah, this was a white shirt, but I tie a lot of green bombers, so OK.
Andrew Barany :Yeah, I feel that you look at your fingers and you're like what have I? Oh, yes, I've been tying flies all day. I look like the Grinch. Yeah, right on, david. Well, yes, thanks again. All right, brother, chat soon.
David Hartlin:All right, man, I appreciate it. Cheers, cheers.
Andrew Barany :Thank you for listening to Dead Drifter Society. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. In the meantime, keep up with the show and get to know Andrew on Instagram at Dead Drifter.
David Hartlin:Society Until next time.
Andrew Barany :So I hope you enjoyed that episode. As you know, if you need to get ahold of me Instagram and, honestly, gmail I don't really use Facebook. I don't really like Facebook, so pretty much just Instagram and Gmail, and I will make a point to get back to you. So if there's anyone else you want to hear on the podcast, you know what to do and, as always, I'll catch you later.