Dead Drifters Society: A fly fishing podcast
Welcome to The Dead Drifters Society podcast, the ultimate destination for fly fishing addicts like us! I'm Andrew Barany, your host from beautiful Vancouver Island, BC, Canada. Join me as we bring together members of the fly fishing community to share stories, tips, tricks, and inspiration both on and off the water. Fly fishing is a lifelong learning experience that both elevates and humbles us. Let's dive into conversations about how this incredible passion has blessed our lives. Tight lines, my friends! Live on and fish on! For more information, email me at deaddrifterssociety@gmail.com
Incredible artwork by Riverwlkr: https://instagram.com/riverwlkr?igshid=MWI4MTIyMDE=
Dead Drifters Society: A fly fishing podcast
Catching Coho: Mastering Saltwater Fly Fishing
If you've ever dreamt of catching Coho salmon using a fly rod, this episode is for you! We’re joined by Flo Benson, an expert fly fishing guide from Tofino, who shares his wealth of knowledge gained from years of experience guiding fishers along the breathtaking coasts of Vancouver Island. Flo dives into the essentials of saltwater fly fishing, discussing the best gear to use, from rod selection to the importance of using the proper fly patterns.
Throughout the episode, we explore the dynamics of Coho salmon, including their behaviour during different times of the year and the tactical approach needed for successful fishing. Flo elaborates on the importance of varying your retrieve speed and the science behind why specific colours like pink and chartreuse work wonders in attracting these aggressive fish. Beyond gear and technique, we also touch on how environmental factors can influence your successful catch ratio, particularly during changing atmospheric conditions.
Aspiring and seasoned anglers alike will gain a treasure trove of information on casting techniques, the necessary adjustments when targeting Coho, and the exciting reality of the battle once a big fish is on the line. Flo emphasizes sustainable fishing practices, reminding us that as stewards of our natural resources, it is crucial to respect and preserve our oceans and rivers.
Join us for a lively discussion filled with expert insights and passionate storytelling, perfect for anyone looking to up their fishing game. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review to help spread the love for fishing!
are like are fighting differently. Like they jump a lot, they fight a lot. Like when, like for every, like people never, never do that before. Like on every fish, you see the backing on every single fish. You see the backing, like all my reel, like, and I, as a customer, my customer, like, how long do you have on backing? Because if you last you have less there's 100 feet, I will prefer to fish with the last you have less there's 100 feet, I will prefer to fish with my reel to make sure, like we don't. If it's a big fish man, like it's a fish of your life, like a 15, 16, 17 pound salmon on saltwater, on the fly, like it's, like you know it's pretty fun welcome to dead.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Dead Drifter's Drifter's Society. Welcome back, dead Drifter. On this episode we sit down with Flo Benson. He is from Tofino on Vancouver Island. He is a saltwater fly fishing guide and this episode we cover Coho on the fly. Hope you enjoy. Welcome back to the podcast, flo. How's it going Not?
Speaker 1:too bad, it's going well. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:I don't know exactly what episode yours was. I think it's in the 20s, but we're up at almost 120 now, so 100 episodes later Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this is great. I remember we talked about going to Argentina for golden Dorado or something like that. Yes, yeah, that's awesome, yeah, but, um, yeah, tonight we can, we, we can do a little bit more regional. And to stay on co-fishing, I saw on your um, on your little story, like people was looking for like co-fly fishing and I was like, yeah, why not to talk about it?
Speaker 2:like you know, that that was one of the most responsive, uh things I've ever done on the internet. Uh, you know where there was no prize at the end. That's from like just you know, the first day there was, like our first couple hours, there was a few answers to the question, but by the end of the day I was like, oh my God, I didn't even post them all Because there were so many. So, yeah, it was great. I wrote a lot of them down. And look at this you know what do you want to hear on the podcast Now, talking to Flo, the man of the hour for coho fishing on the island? So yeah, let's get into it yeah, no, awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, as you know, like I'm in tofino, I'm on the west coast of vancouver island, I'm I guide here since 15 years for coho on the fly and like, yeah, let's talk a little bit of that. Um, around here in tofino, like we can target cool like from the beach and from both, like everywhere, but there is like quite a few access like you can, you can go fly fishing targeting cool like from the beach, like mackenzie tonquin, like there is some jumpers like almost all summer long. You need to find like the good, the good timing for it. Um, for that, like you just need a classic combo like a nine feet, seven weight, eight weight, with like a line, a line you can cast far. If it's a floating line, put a sinking fly. If it's a sinking line, put a regular fly. But the important is to go far, like the far as you can and the fast as you can.
Speaker 1:Like the speed is is key when you target coho, like if you have one follower or like you can see something behind your fly. The first thing like just speed it up like the fast as you can. Like they are extremely fast, like it's it's crazy, and they will react like just on a change of speed or or something different. Like it's, uh, the routine doesn't work very well from the, from the beach, let's say that. Like that, you know what I mean. Like it's just like change the speed, like change something. Like, if it doesn't work, like it doesn't work, if you can find something you work, like you will have some result right away.
Speaker 1:Like the color of the fly, like the depth, something is a little bit deeper, but never too deep. It's better to be more, uh, more on the surface, like you know. Okay, yeah, yeah, they look always up, are? They are not very deep fish, they like to stay on the surface. You know what I mean? Yeah, like they can see the surface from where they swim. Like they swim like 25, 30 feet deep, like at the deepest, and, um, well, you can find some fish at under 20 feet deep, but, um, like, once you're targeting are going to be the ones that are up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, but it's all at the speed man. Usually the color of flight, with three main colors I like to use, is like the first is pink. If there's a color to choose, like dude morning tonight, if I have one rod, I will have a pink flight.
Speaker 2:All at once.
Speaker 1:Like there is not a discussion If the pink doesn't work. The Chartreuse comes second. Like you know, a bright Chartreuse, super flashy, depending on luminosity, what the sun is doing, you know if it's. And after that comes the purple. But pink orange, like Chartreuse. Like there is some combo with like all these four colors. Like that is pretty good. That works like very well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fly selection is always something that you know can stump people. But, you know, a lot of the times, just a simple fly that moves properly, so sparse, I mean. I remember when I first met you, you literally tied a fly for me. Um, after I bought all the materials, you're like, okay, this is how you did it, and you're like just a few strands of this polar bear and I was like in my head I was like, but that's just not enough. Now, you know, like eight years later, nine years later, I'm looking at that and I'm like, oh man, I have one of my old flies that I tied way back then and I'm like that thing is so loaded with material like nothing can breathe, nothing can move. So, um, a simple, sparse fly, especially, um, like you in the that right color combo pink fly chartreuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, usually, usually, when I tied like a fly for cool, like um forecasting there is, uh, the bodies always shiny something white crystal whenever, um, for me I don't have too much importance for that, uh, after, for me I don't have too much importance for that After that I put like a few strands of glue on the deck. After that I put some white polar bear always some shine, a little bit shiny, like depends on the mood, can be, you know, whatever and after that I put the color of the polar bear I want the final one and I put some angel hair on the top, like it's. I love to work with angel hair, I think, for with polar bear it's a very nice combo. I like it a lot. Like I tie all my fly with that. It's like if you want to give just a little bit of shine, you can do it. It's so thin and like so vibrant. Then you follow exactly like the um, the action. Uh, I want so like material selection.
Speaker 2:That's a big one too. Um, I've had some materials that seem to almost break down in the salt water, because obviously salt water is, uh, you know, tougher than than frank water. I don't know what to say there. But yeah, you know, it can rust things, it can, it can do a lot. So, like polar bear, that's an animal that swims in the ocean. So their hair is really good. This angel hair I haven't worked with angel hair so I'm not, uh, familiar with angel hair is.
Speaker 1:It's like it's a flat. It's not like pistol flash or, you know, like the twisted one. This is a flat one, but extremely, extremely thin. Let me, let's try to show you what I'm talking about. It's a. I'm trying to find some. I have some fly on here. Yes, Uh-huh, Do you see like this bubble here? Okay, so.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, the pink here like is very, very thin. Yeah, yeah, it's thinner than the polar bear Like personally, I tied just with polar bear because I prefer that than bucktail. I don't know why. I like the swim, the transparency, it's the only one thing, like you said. Like the saltwater eats everything. Like it's insane If your hook is not a very good quality, but you will see that Like within three or four days. That and like, except if you rinse your stuff. I don't know too a lot of fishermen like rinse, like everything after fishing, but it's what you should do, but it's not very often.
Speaker 1:It's made For the fly. It's, yeah, polar bear, like glow. I like to put glow. I don't know why, maybe it's in my head, but first layer is glow, white polar bear, some crystal flash and the color polar bear. I put one or two color like to have a junction. I like to have orange, pink. That works very well and I put always. The last layer is always darker and you do a very nice finishing for the eyes and everything the eyes is like. You must have an eye on your fly. This is a must. This is an attack signal. This is everything on your fly. This is a must, this is an attack signal.
Speaker 2:This is everything. This is years of you trying, without eyes, to lead you to say you need eyes. Oh yeah, you need eyes, you need eyes.
Speaker 1:I troll with three to four rods to do some bucktailing on the boat. I have a 22-footer ready for fly fishing and I put bucktail and polar bear like the polar bear we had all the time. But like there is not even a discussion, like I will have 5 fish on the polar bear for one on the bucktail. It makes a big difference and it's like the swim is transparency for everything. I, I I focus on that since 15 years. It works. You know why do you want to change a team work?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's, uh, that's a pretty good one. I I had some success doing some bucktailing and I I used polar bear for that fly. It was like actually all constructed by polar bear and some flash two tones put eyes. I put dumbbell eyes on it, so me, but they still had the eyes. Uh, yeah, that is something you know. Even with like steelhead flies, we, we like to put little eyes on them.
Speaker 1:It's a necessity on saltwater. It's different than if you don't put eyes like it's complicated. You can still catch a fish, yeah, but it's pretty important, like when you do some bucktailing, you can put a blade on the top too. A blade, yeah, a blade, like a spoon, little spoon, little spoon, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, like to to to put more moves. Sometimes he works, sometimes he scares the fish, like it's um but um, yeah. Like to come back to beach fishing, sometimes you have to to match the hatch. You know like the fish are not crazy, it's. It's like you are trying to imitate the nature. You know what I mean. Like the hatch are a little bit different. For example, for us it can be like sand lance or herring or squid or like this. You have to match what varies on the environment, like just on a Usually sandhill Like for us, like the cove, I love sandhill. It's a very long, skinny fish, sandhill, like for us, like the cove, I love sandhill.
Speaker 2:It's a very long skinny fish Samhill. Oh yeah, okay, Samhill yeah.
Speaker 1:And sand like S-A-N-D and hill like 2-E-L sandhill, yeah, yeah, and that is pretty good. Like this year we had a lot of herring, for example. That changed because the herring came back and like the coast is full of herring, like maybe, how do we go two inches, two and a half inches, do you know what I mean? Like not very big and like if you can find a good fly for it, like oh, it's's crazy. There is different color. Let me show you a few. Depends the luminosity, you will have different color. Can I do? I want to turn. You see that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Quite flashy is what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, very, very, very flashy. And you see the eyes like big eyes. Do not hesitate, you have to put some very big eyes.
Speaker 2:Do you like using those fish skulls? No, no, you build them out of epoxy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, resin yeah, just I. It will be a lot of skill. You know what I mean, but you know different color, like plastic, not very, do you see that? Oh, yes, you do. The body is white, red with a bit of white around Big eyes, big eyes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the hook don't have to be shy, yeah, yeah, and using proper salt hooks when you're on the ocean. That's. Oh, yeah, like, if you use like, your hook will rush like within, yeah, three days, done, done yeah, yeah, I've learned that the hard way trying to keep out so salt hooks, you know, matching the hatch. So sandlands, herrings and um sam hill, yeah, yeah, that uh that is uh the most, most used kind of fly yeah, that's like something.
Speaker 2:So, like when I've done the coho fishing off the beach, you know something flashy, probably representing like a handlebar, so that would be like maybe some kind of shrimp or something. Yeah, yeah, and you know, um, but the one thing I did notice like you go to port renfrew on the island and in that estuary, the coho are very, um, elusive. Like they see you, they're gone, you cast at them. You know you really got to get the right presentation, um, but distance casting for them is is where it's at. Like, you need the good distance you need to attract them in.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's key because, like, for two reasons. The first reason is, like usually they are not, they are not 20 feet of you, they are way farther than 20 feet. And second thing, they move extremely fast, so you have to be capable to cast like 70 to 90 feet in like five seconds. You know what I mean. The type to arm, to cast, to shoot, target, that like you don't have to think um, but when you talk about the flies, like here, like we have bigger flies than the east coast of Vancouver Island, vancouver Island, you go fishing in Comox you have to use extremely small flies and here you can use big flies. This is pretty fun. For that you don't have to be as thin as the east coast. When it's calm, here it's a little bit faster and the fish is still aggressive. It's really good.
Speaker 1:But yeah, the distance is like it's first thing when you want to fish from the beach, because this is key. You know what I mean. Like if the fish is like 60 feet, you have to cast like 70 feet to do like an okay presentation and to cast. And you know, like the last 40 feet are nothing, it's been. You just have your head on the front of you and um, and usually your head never come inside your rod. You know what I mean. Like usually on the wait for wild, like the, the head is 27 to 36 feet, like, um, uh, like when you do your first back cast you, you, you are ready to load your rod already.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean yeah, you're quick shooting, so you'd you'd cast out. Now, when you're targeting the coho and you see them like you know they're over there, let's say to the left, you wouldn't cast your fly right into the middle of them, or is that something you're doing?
Speaker 1:no, because, like the, that depends. Like you know every, there is a different cast for every situation. Uh, the first thing you try to see for which direction they go. Usually they go always against the currents. Your tide is on the front of you. Like if the tide go like a left to to right, if the, the fish is on the front of you, you you have to to cast, like upstream. You have to when you do some um, we'll talk that with the boat fishing but like it's like little bit of river, like you have the currents on the front of you and the fish is always going against the current, always, like 90% of the time, and like you just have to. If, if you see the fish jumping or inactivity, like you can go downstream. But usually when they go downstream they are pretty deep. You know what I mean. But uh, it's uh and uh, it's all right, you cast like upstream little bit forest and you strip like you're you know, fast, very fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of me and my buddies were talking and he's, he's like man, I don't think you could ever outstrip a fish. And I was like that is a very good point, whether you're on the river or the ocean, like you're never going to actually make that that fish work. It's full to catch up to what you're doing, like you're you're always going to be on the short end we we so moving it oh yeah, we, we underestimate, like the speed and the intelligence of the fish.
Speaker 1:Like it's uh, like you know what kind of receptor they have and how sensible they are for different kind of things, like, for example, on the ocean. They are extremely sensible to atmospheric pressure. Like, if you know, you go on, wendy, and you know there is a storm coming, fish before the storm, the fish are very angry. They will eat because they know for two or three days they will not eat. They will take it easy if they, yeah, like usually here, like we have, like we have a storm every two, two, three days, like in september, when the storm is coming and the atmospheric pressure starts to change, is the time to go fishing and, like you will have a very, very good day fishing because all the kind of fish will you can target rockfish, you can target lingcod, like all the fish will like feed because they know the next few days it will be quiet. They will not to move, they don't feel good, they will stay quiet. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:They will not spend energy yeah, and then they got a swim bladder inside. So I mean the second it's starting. The pressure is getting weird.
Speaker 1:That's like a stomach ache, basically exactly that's how I imagine it, at least they, they just don't feel good, they don't want to move because like it's, it's, just like okay, and they are extremely sensible to that. It's um, it's, it's, yeah. When you know how, when you know how, like the pressure work, like you can, you can figure out like, okay, this day will be the prime on this week. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is fun, this is super fun yeah, so definitely paying attention to your atmospheric pressures. Um, you know, you know there's a big storm coming. Get, get your rod out. Head to the beach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like the calm before the storm. That is the time to go fishing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's calm because they're eating everything. No, no, it's good.
Speaker 1:And after that, like if you have a boat, but if you have a boat, like you take a look at the map with like a Cleo Cousin, like Tofino, I have like 80 miles of coast, like for fishing, which is like full of little islands, bed, kelp, sandbank, which is like, yeah, it's a bit crazy, but the choice is pretty insane. Yeah, it's a bit crazy with that, the choice is pretty insane.
Speaker 2:So if you're going, let's say you know I want to go beach fishing for coho, obviously I'm probably going to go somewhere that there's a river that flows into the ocean, because that's where they're going to be kind of coming close in. Or are you going to anywhere on a beach and you just walk it until you see some fish?
Speaker 1:going to anywhere on a beach and you just walk it till you see some fish. Um, usually there is always some currents on uh on the beach and it's always good to wait to, to to look around, like observation is always key, like to see where they are jumping, and after that, um, you can fish, usually, like the extreme left or right, like on on on each side, like that will be the prime spot, uh, you know, because this is the entry or the exit of the beach, like to make sure, like all the fish, if they go through the beach, would go through the side. Um, but, uh, it's um, yeah, just go and cast, like, like I said, you can go on waders. The problem I don't like too much to put waders on salt water because you never know, uh, with the salt, like if you don't rinse properly, your waders is dead. Um, it's not like I prefer to go on shorts and to be a little bit wet. You know it's not too cold, it's, it's a summer.
Speaker 1:Usually we start to target uh co, like mid-june, beginning of july, until beginning of october, um, like it's, uh, it's a good uh, uh with a high season begin like uh, end of july, beginning of august. Depending on years, every year is different, like it's. It's difficult to have some rolls because some years are very good. There is a very good return. But since three years right now there is a very good return with very good-sized fish. It's very impressive. It's bizarre because the fish are staying on very old spots. We used to fish 15 years ago.
Speaker 2:It's like they're coming back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very interesting, like when you fish with the boat. Like you have 25 miles of coast to explore, with little island at belk, and they can be everywhere it's been like, and every day it change because there is two tide in a day. It's like they can move on different spots. Um, you have to take a map to imagine like the coast, like a river, but the, the tide is like it's like a current coming in and coming out and you have to find the back eddy, like being an island, like just it's, like it's instead to be. Um, the island is wide, like 30, 30 miles, like 45 kilometers wide, and you imagine each little island. You have some currents, you know when the current is coming with the tide, like you have a huge back end and you can see that.
Speaker 1:Like there is a very well-known bank which is called the Cat Face, where you can see when the tide is coming in and coming out. Like you can see the weight. Like you have a weight. Like you can see the weight. Like you have a weight. Like sometimes it's two feet, two feet weight. Like with the tide, just the tide, and on the front of the of the bank is, uh, it's totally flat and all the power of the of the water is coming in and and go up like the, the tide, because, like the depth go from 40 feet to 10, 10 feet, 10 feet deep, so in like 10 feet deep the wake is like, yeah, two feet, two feet wake, it's pretty impressive and it's a good point, though I mean looking for structure.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's always something when you're fishing. Obviously, when you're, you know, on a small creek, it's easy to see the structure, but when you're on the ocean, it's like where's the structure?
Speaker 1:well, now it's like it's big boy structure oh yeah, like it's exactly the same, like take that like an image, like 10 times, like extremely, like a big, big plant. Um, you fish behind an island, you fish like a huge rock, it's like a little back on the back. Yeah, maybe there is one fish or two Up you go, you cast like two or three times. Like you stay five minutes Up, you move and the fish are moving all the time. Like it's pretty, every day it's a different day. Like it's not like river fishing where, okay, the fish is there, there is another one there and another one there. Like you know, sometimes you start to know the river and you know where are the fish.
Speaker 1:In salt water it's it's different because a batch they come by batch, you know a batch of fish, like a school of fish can, like a school of fish can be 20 fish, can be 500 fish, and they come, they show up in the sound, like that work for Chinook. Chinook. You will follow the school of Chinook, like coming in the sound and leaving. Sometimes the school stay like two weeks, sometimes stay two days. Like we caught some fish, like 40 fish caught in the same spot, and you come back the day after it's empty, there is nothing. It's big pictures like same kind of targeting, but very big pictures, school of fish coming through and um and co is the same. Sometime last year we were lucky we had a huge school of fish who stayed like for almost three weeks. So we target fish constantly on the same spot for like three or four weeks. It was super fun. Like I'm talking like 10 15 fish per per trip, like um it was, it was pretty fun yeah, that is really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when you're on the boat, like obviously when you're on land you're you, where you can walk to is is your limit, but on the boat you'd like you'd travel around. You're looking for those jumpers, you're looking for the structure and then once you you know, those two things come together, you found the structure, you found the fish. Then you can either anchor up or just cast from the boat.
Speaker 1:Usually, personally, I like to drift. I don't like to anchor too much, um, because like that you scare less the fish, like when you, when you anchor, like the fish move and that's it, it's done. He moved. When, uh, when you drift, you go over, you know, you do one or two casts sometimes because the drift, like, will be maybe like 70 meters or you know, 70 yards long, 100 yards long, like the whole spot, because you fish the whole back. Eddy, can you imagine like you fish behind the island? You fish like 25 percent up and 75 percent down, like on the spot.
Speaker 1:If there is, um, if you have a sand bank, for example in cat face, in cat face the sand bank is 200, 200 yards long. Jeez, you know what I mean. You have all the sand bank to fish. Um, if you, if you want to target a bed kelp, uh, you just have to go through the bed kelp. What I do sometimes I put my downrigger ball on the sand, when I'm sure it's sand and like that I have less speed, I slow down. Just a very small anchor. I use a 20-pound downrigger ball and I put that on the bottom.
Speaker 2:Just to add a little resistance. Slow you down ever so much, Not intrusive.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. I think there's a lot of people who like to anchor For me. No, I prefer to drift, it's better.
Speaker 2:Well, that makes sense too. If you're kind of drifting with the flow and the fish are following the flow, then you're in drifting with the flow and the fish are following the flow, then you stay in the zone longer as well, which makes sense and after that you move.
Speaker 1:You know, when you move, like I have two engines on the boat, I have 200 and I have a little kicker like a 99. And when we want to go back on the spot, like I use the kicker and we bucktail a little bit, like it's good, like yeah, but telling a casting is very different, like it's different flies, the fly are bigger, like um, the like we, we like, usually I like to put some blades. You know, like, like said pro, it's difficult to cast a blade, like.
Speaker 2:you know what I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, 100, yeah, so if you're bucktailing too, like I know, some people probably know what that is and some people don't. Bucktailing is, um, just having your fly off in the prop wash, right, how far back do you say, like, but it's like, there's different strategy, like, personally, I like to be close, like I like to be 15 to 20 feet like it's.
Speaker 1:It's pretty close. You have your, your rod on a. Okay, I explain what is backtailing. Backtailing is like you're on the boat, you, you set up your engine to have like the wider prop wash, like you throw like between two knots to four knots if you, if you are with the currents, um, but what you want to target is the prop wash to have like a very wide and bubbly prop wash with like very small bubble and the longest is possible. Like that, um, the fish think it's a school of bait fish, so it's like he will come um.
Speaker 1:After that it depends for how many rods you have, but I like to have three or four rods, but I do just like fishing. You know what I mean. Uh, with two rods I will put like one close and one far. Yeah, um, you know what I mean. Like to to do some variation, um, just to make sure, like you try a little bit everything. Sometime, like the fish will be shy and will stay a little bit back. Sometimes, like the fish will be shy and will stay a little bit back. Usually, co-horses are not very shy and they go right away. I like to put, if you have two rods pink, far like a pink very shiny, and a different kind of pink-orange, like more close from the boat, 25 feet and 15, 18 feet to have like six, seven feet of difference yeah, your fly is pretty much bouncing on the surface when it's that close uh, no, no, no the fly.
Speaker 1:It has to be underwater okay this is very important.
Speaker 2:No flapping no flapping.
Speaker 1:No, flapping, like it's very important you have to. It's for that we use, like short leader and very heavy sinking line. Like the leader is like six, seven feet long, less than the length of the rod, because, like you know, when you fight the fish and the fish is close from the boat, you gotta land it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, um, and usually in the middle of it like there is a little um, uh, a little thing to to avoid the twisting and then that's yeah, okay, and then that's what you use in between going back up to a spot, so you're fishing, you drift down, and then it's like let's get back to the top. Yeah, throw those rods out back. Yeah, you don't see, see what?
Speaker 1:comes up, I like I like to have some choice for rods. You know, like I like to have like few numbers and like to adapt the rods and rails, like I have always. Like six, six, seven rods like on on on the boat, like to make sure, like we can change very fast, like it's. It's like the rod is set up we can cast right away. Like it's they are like a very heavy sinking line, um, uh, 26 foot, um 26 foot head, like 300 grams, like it's very, very heavy, very fast to load and you have to go fast. But no, it's good.
Speaker 2:Do you get a lot of your clients to throw the rod under their arm and use two-handed to strip?
Speaker 1:Yes, to throw the rod under their arm and use two-handed to strip. Yes, if they can, that is a good solution. The regular strip you should do some very long, long strip very fast.
Speaker 2:As quick as you can, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the good thing when you fish from the boat, everything is visual. There is a platform on the front and you are a little bit higher when you cast, and usually the co-oil follow a lot and they will bite 10 feet from the boat because you change the speed. Yeah, it's flat Because you lift up the rod. No, it's just because you lift up the rod and you change the speed and they bite. At this time it's super fun because you can see everything and when there is one, there is always like 10 or there is always few fish around yeah, so yeah, well, one and others are going to be curious to follow as well, and then oh yeah, if you have one fisherman, the second fisherman, like you know, go on the other side of the boat and cast a fly, usually very big fly to have a double header like huge chance, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like you're attracting the men, which is obviously what we're doing, but you know, your buddy will probably hook up.
Speaker 1:If you've hooked up, that's it yeah, get your fly in the water. They are predators. They are looking for activities, for moves, for excitement. You know what I mean when I was talking about feelings. They feel that if there is something happening like a fish is hunting a school of fish, there is kind of communication with that. You know what I mean and they will come at you. They will this kind of communication with that, you know what I mean and they will come at you. They will see that when, when you go for tuna fishing it's happened too, like we were talking earlier, like tuna fishing from vancouver island, you can cast for them.
Speaker 1:It's not you have to be extremely fast and extremely far to go because they are extremely fast fish. But if you hook one, the school will stay around your boat and it's like that on saltwater. It's a little bit different than freshwater, but it's like bucktailing from the boat. Like we said earlier, it's a small leader. You can um put a blade on the front of your of your fly. You can use way bigger fly with two hooks. I say way bigger fly. We are talking 10 inches. I'm not scared to put 10 inches. You know what I mean. Oh, yeah, like, seriously, like it's fine, like you look at the size of the earring through that, through that like, and they're not scared, they're fish, you know what I mean. Like if there is like a six or seven inches earring, you fish with six or seven inches earring imitation that's a good point.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, there's a reason salmon get large, because they're out there eating some big stuff and they're not going to shy away because it's, you know, nine inches long, if their food source is normally that size. So that's a good point.
Speaker 1:Like when we target squid, like the first week of June, second week of June, usually there's some squid coming around the coast. Like the squid is like six inches long, six to seven inches long. What do you think the fish will think like if you tied like a five or four inches squid? Like yeah, yeah, exactly like why, why you have a steak around you and there's a burger coming. Like no, it doesn't work. You take the steak, but it's yeah, you have to match the hatch. Like sometimes it can be some small herring. Sometimes, depending on the season, usually in June there's some squid. There's always some sandhill. The size of the herring change during the season because they grow. Like at the beginning of the season they are small and after that they start to be bigger and bigger and bigger. Um and uh, and sometime, like there's a fish, prefer to stay on the small fish. Sometime when you, when you open the, when you open the stomach of the fish, uh, it's very, always very interesting to see for what they eat.
Speaker 2:Like that's a good point too. You know you starting early season on a beach just fishing, and you know if you're using heron they'll be smaller and later in the season they would be bigger. So yeah, you can. You know if you're getting fish at the beginning of the season and later in the season you're not. Maybe that could be one of the the keys to it yeah, yeah, and and and for for pattern.
Speaker 1:Like to talk a little bit about pattern for fly fishing, for flies, like you know, classic deceiver, like a closer uh, you don't have to be very picky like it is just like it's more aggressivity, cool. I say that like all the time to my customer just to make sure we are targeting co-salman. This is part of the salman family. Doesn't mean he's very sharp but extremely aggressive and he likes to play and jump a lot but extremely aggressive. It's mean if something is shiny and like change speed and like it's like a real behavior, it's done, it's been hidden. You know what I mean. But you have to have this like crazy behavior to be different than than what varies around. You know what I mean. Like the speed change do a lot of of difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about changing direction? Um, you know, at the end of like you were saying, you cast out, you're stripping nice and fast, you see some chasing and you lift up your rod, uh, and then that's usually when they kind of come hit it. So obviously there's a bit of a change of direction, whether that's upwards or to the left or right. So do you ever drag it off to the left or drag it off to the right as you're lifting All the time?
Speaker 1:Weird behavior. It changes speed, like I said to all my customers. You see, there's just 26 feet of length, it's like two lengths of a rod and we have less than length for the leader. Like when you cast, when you see the head with dark, you just turn around like very fast around the boat. Like you know, when you do for pike with the eight figures, you do exactly the same thing. You do a huge one very fast and like that is a signal like fast and like that is a signal like to to bite. There is a lot of fish. You bite at this time, like you are here. You do a huge one like that. We start a roll cast and you load and let's go yeah, yep, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's something I do with streamer fishing these days is is generally just be sporadic. Be quick, you know. If you're going for that fast reaction, then make it happen. Yeah, trag the rod a little bit Aggressive.
Speaker 1:Aggressivity is key. Like it's crazy, like you have to the behavior of your lure make a big difference at the end. Like you have to be weird and like different, just like faster than than usual, just different than but, and just the curiosity or like aggressivity they will take it. It's. It's pretty fun for that.
Speaker 2:It's pretty fun, yeah what weight rods are you using on the, the boat for coho fishing?
Speaker 1:uh, eight weight, eight weight for backtailing, eight weight and nine weight for backtailing and um, I use seven weight for um a casting casting. Okay, like, yeah, like I have a, yeah, a nine feet seven weight is perfect. Little bit of overload, like with a sinking line and uh, it's a very fast rod, but uh, overload on purpose and like it's extremely easy to cast yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What lines are you, uh? What lines are you enjoying these days?
Speaker 1:I um, I use two kind of lines depending on what I'm doing. I like Rio line. I have the chance to have a little bit of help from Rio, like they send me some stuff. I like the Leviathan, who is like a big game fly line, and I like the strippers. Strippers, they are way forward with a sinking head. Strippers is little bit longer, head is great for casting and the leviathan are. They are breaks, they can be 600. I have everything, all the size, because depends different kind of weather I have and what kind of fish I target. Uh, but go from 650 grams to 250. You know what I mean like a huge wrench between six weight and 13 weight.
Speaker 2:It's, um, it's like I like to use, like it's, 350 grams for eight weight and that works pretty good for me yeah yeah you're purposely slightly overloading it so that you can cast quickly and get the distance you're looking for in a short amount of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly because now I remember when, uh, we were at that spade clave and you gave me a few pointers on casting. It just tightened up everything. So that is something you do. You are a casting instructor. You went to school for it in France. You put in the time. You're by far one of the best casters I've ever watched.
Speaker 2:I've seen some really good casters and I've seen, I mean, I remember the one time you were like we were on the river, we, you just happened to be there and we fished together and you had a, a 16 foot leader with a nymph on it, casting it over top of the willows and the trees and then straight out and I was like how do you even, how do you even do that? But one thing that I thought was really good from when you taught me or gave me some tips was your back cast is your control and your forward cast is where you let line out, and I took that long, like I, I do that now, whereas you know when I'm casting streamers. Back is control, forward is distance. Oh, that's not far enough. Okay, back one more, that's my control. Forward there, that's the target. That really helped me.
Speaker 1:So I hope that helps someone just hearing it, because yeah, when, when, when you do, when you do when, when you want to balance your, your rod and your cast, like, and cause, like, when you want to do some distance, everything has to be balanced perfectly. There is some, some information like the most important is your back cast, not your front cast. Your front cast is a targeting. It's just for that. You will not get any distance or any power coming from your front cast. Your front cast is like here, like just to make sure your fly line go on the right trajectory. All these trajectories can be changed after. But it's like when, um, when you launch, uh, uh, something like it's done, it's this trajectory like the targeting is done. When you lock, when you do the, the front lock is done.
Speaker 1:But if you want to, to, to load your rod, like your rod is like a spring, if you load your rod on the back side, she will give you the same kind of energy on the front. It's mean, if you let some line out on the back side, you give more weight. If you have more weight, you can load your rod more. It's, it's, um, it it's, it's.
Speaker 1:This is the most important for distance. And usually what, uh, how, how I try to explain is like try to put some weight on one side. You pull, like you, you put your, your one of your, your friends, like put the feet on the line, like on your back, and you load your rod at one point, like just just ask your friends to open the finger and you will see like you don't have to move your hand to have the same amount of power. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it's. It's like like a spring. If you load your rod on the back side like she will go, she will give you back the same energy. And if you add the double haul like dude, after that you launch a target.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're fishing on the beach. This is from my own personal experience if you're working on the beach and you can't double haul, that is such a key to being able to be quick but also to get the distance you need in a short amount of time. So practice that double haul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very important to see where is your head, to see your head. There is a few different ways to see that. The color of line usually changes if it's a difference of density. Usually, like you have some dark olive is type 2, brown is type 3, gray is type 4, and black is type 5 or something like that. You know, like darker is like a sinker is a head. The second way to see that for a floating line or intermediate example is the thickness of your line. You take your line from your leader, put that between your finger and you will see at one point it will be thicker and after that you will go very thin. The thin part is called the running line, the running line. It will be the left over of the fly line. Usually your head is like around 30 feet and the next 60 feet will be just the running line. Like the important way when you want to do some some distance is like look where you put the 60 feet, because sometimes shit happens and you know everything everything it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know what you mean. It seems all good you finally hooked this fish and then, uh, oh, it's around your boot and it's around that bolt over there and it's under that bag.
Speaker 1:It's over that guy's head, yeah it's always, uh, it can be an issue sometimes, like what I, what I do, and like that works, like to go very fast. Like you use your finger, like, uh, you know, like you are stripping with you are handling the rod with the right hand and you are stripping with the left. When you are stripping, you are stripping five strip and you put the strip in your pinky, you do another five strip and you put that on your the other finger, you do another five strip and you put that um on the next finger and when you cast, like you just open your finger, open your hands, you know, and everything goes like I use that a lot for spearfishing and I use that a lot like in a boat, for forecasting. Yeah, it makes a big difference, it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you build some habits and, uh, it's, it's like, it's like a machine, like you know what I mean like it's always the same thing I, you know, and I know we're talking coho and beach fishing right now, but for spay casting something that I've I asked someone and it makes sense. But you know, my first loop is going this is in the water, in the flow, right. So my first loop is probably going to be about eight poles. I usually like to go about the distance of my rod.
Speaker 2:Mind you, I'm not doing like insane distance casting on my spay rod. I'm trying to fish, you know, the first 60 feet of the water I'm hitting. And then my second loop is like, let's say it was nine, my first one. My second loop is going to be like eight poles and my last loop is whatever's left, and so all three of my loops are a different length. So when they pull off the water they're not tangling in themselves and causing a big knot. So since I've been doing that and really focusing, um, I would say you know, well, over half my my cast just go out because there was no resistance. Yeah it, it was a really big thing.
Speaker 1:So way less resistance on the water and like that you you have, like you more distance.
Speaker 2:so you're doing this on the casting deck. You're on the casting deck, you're stripping in. You got your first finger with the first loop. You're starting to do the other three fingers, then you're down to two fingers, then you're down to your thumb. You're already casting, and then when you let go it's just one finger at a time it would probably just come off naturally anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah but I do that in my boat. I take the habits because when we go tuna fishing it's different on boat it's not on my boat and there's always a lot of shit in the deck and like that, you keep the fly line like very close of you. You know what I mean. Like when you have 60 feet of line, like just around um it's, it's very, um, there is always, like you know, a gap or like a little thing, or like you like you know, like um something, like to go offshore fishing. You we use big boats and like it is very different.
Speaker 1:Like, but on my boat it's possible to put like all the line. We have enough space, like it's huge space, like to put all the line. It's easier, but that's, for me, helped me to cast it's faster, just to get the ibit to, to cast faster, like it make a big difference. You, uh, your fly is on the fishy spots right away. You know what I mean. Like if you wait, if you need like 10 casts to cast like 100 feet, dude, the fish is far. 10 casts is like 30 seconds, like it's done, like okay, let's move the boat, like it's.
Speaker 2:You got to make that shot. You got to make that shot and quick. So anything you can do in your power organizing your line is always a big thing when you're fishing I I explain like like a little bit differently.
Speaker 1:I I had like um. Three or four customers asked me like for like uh, some some help with with um with double hole and from 50 feet they they went like 80 feet, 90 feet in like half an hour just to. Everything is about timing and to look at your fly line on the back like you want to make sure your fly line is straight. The the the most mistake is like to to go back like too early. You have to wait, get the the line out on the back.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's at first too. If you're not used to that habit, it can literally feel like you're losing everything, yeah, but all that weight is now behind you. Your what? Your fly line? That was another pointer you gave me. You're like, hey, you're not letting your fly line unroll fully and and so then I started doing that to the point where it's like, fully unrolled, it's almost dropping, where you'd be like, let's say, nervous, but that's the rod loading exactly. And then you time that and you already have full tension with the rod. That. That tightened up my cast so much. Um, you, you know this was what three, four years ago or something. So it's, it's been a, it's been a good road since, since I met, uh, saw you there, and you gave me those, those pointers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's always fun, like just a little thing can help you, like so much because it's just about timing, weight and speed, like it's like the result, the equation for the transmission of energy is like the weight multiplied by the speed squared. It's been. There's two, two variants the speed and the weight. The weight is like the amount of, uh, the amount of line, like you have on the back when you, um, when you load your rod, and the speed is when you are on your back cast and you start your front cast and your rod start to load full flex and after that you add a huge hole, like from five feet, and like you do not realize, like the power of graphite, like the flex and and the power like you can have. It's impressive. Every single rod, like I'm pretty sure you saw online, like everybody's, like yeah, I don't know if this rod is good or not. They do. There is no bad rod, there is just bad fisherman. Like you can. You can cast like 90 feet with every single rod.
Speaker 1:I can cast like 70 feet with just the tip yeah like when I was in um, I spent one year in school like to learn how to, to teach fly fishing, not to how to learn how to fish. Like to learn how to to, to teach him to have some good result. Like the master, like was jean astier, was casting with like a pen, like it's six inches, like in feet, with a pen.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure a lot of people have seen. There's a couple of people now that have done it. But you know, a year or two ago there was that guy that was casting with just his hands, yeah, and he was calling and you know video and it really does show you. I've now taken a few people out who have never fly fished and when we're in the Kootenays and I'm like, okay, well, you at least need about a 30 to 40 foot cast, that's like. You know, that lays out nicely, lays out nicely.
Speaker 2:So we start and one of the first things I do, um, before someone actually even goes to cast, is I, I pretend I'm the fish so I just get them to lay their rod out straight. You know, tip at the ground, and I pull it a few times. I'm like you feel that right? Then I'm like now put your, your tip up, and then I pull it again. I'm like, do you feel that? And they're like barely, and I'm like that's because there's no connection, it's not a straight line to your hand. But when you drop your rod tip and I pull in that slack and then I give it a couple tugs, now everything's straight to it. So, like that's, you know, step one.
Speaker 2:And then the next thing I show them is how you could literally start casting with your rod straight up, one slow movement to the back, match it to the front, and then just keep that consistent and all of a sudden now I'm casting like no problem, you know. And so it kind of just showing them how the rod really works. Because that's that's the thing with if you come from like gear fishing and you're throwing a heavy weight, that you assume that you're throwing the line. But it's like everything needs to be uniform and timing. Once you get that down, a 40-foot to potentially 60-foot cast doesn't become that difficult. So timing in any sense, but for distance especially, I mean, I don't know, I could probably do it. Oh, we just lost the flow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're back in. We'll do it with with that, like everything fell down the same, but whenever it's fixed yeah, no, no worries man, that, uh, that is the name of the beast with internet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you will have to give me 2.5 seconds to just take your time wrapping this marabou 2.5 seconds to just wrap in this marabou, just a tube fly for the winter steelhead. Yeah, it's very much in season with the podcast. People like to hear what's like fishing at that time. So a lot of people are gearing up for the winter steelhead, so obviously super fun. I like winter steelheading.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is a good way to test your patience and work on your casting yeah, because like the fish is like the cherry on the cake and you don't have cherry every day. Let's say that's like that yes, it's uh.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm just reading. Okay, well, we're back on. Um, yep, just a little internet problem there, so kind of cut out. But uh, we are back live, all good. Good. And we were talking. Yeah, no, that is just all good.
Speaker 1:I've had things happen many of times. We were talking about a workshop and how to learn how to do the double hole and distance and how to load rods. Yeah, I like to talk about that. We can talk about that like for for for days and days. Like, yeah, I love the theory of the casting is as interesting than the fishing. For me it's in, like just seeing like your cast, like I don't do that with all my customers, all my clients, but it's like, if you know, I can help you, if you're like you know, like I can help you, like to cast, to have a better cast, more efficient not better, just more efficient. You know, to change your loop a little bit to, to, maybe to to, with like one or two tips I can make you make like 20 feet longer. Yeah, it's, um, sometimes like it's, uh, it's, it's, it's a very thin details and, uh, you can win a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I was, uh, I was saying how I kind of go through, like you know, teaching a beginner, but it really does come down to understanding the rod and understanding, like you said, the graphite, how strong it really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but like what you're capable of doing when you teach people like a person is what what I do like and that works. Since, like I teach people, since I'm I'm 18 years old, since I am my, my master and I'm 50 this year, it's like there's three first steps. The first step is like keep your. You move your rod, like the cast is like 10 to 1, 2 o'clock, you know, and you have to keep your line in the air without touching anywhere, like that is the first thing. After that you want to. The second step is like to make your fly line straight, that is, two lengths of fly line out of the rod so you're teaching that step one is keeping your fly line off the ground.
Speaker 1:So if someone's having a hard time dropping it back.
Speaker 2:That's the first thing you're like okay, this is what you need to do.
Speaker 1:And now they're doing that in the hair not touching on the front or on the back. After that the second layer is like. The second step is like to make sure, like your line go straight, just the fly line go straight on on the front. For that you introduce, like, the lock on the back and the lock on the front. You know what I mean. And after that, um you. The third step is to target something with three length of rod with your leader Usually the leader is one length of rod and to achieve your fly first. When you target, the fly touches first. For that you have to lock on the back and lock on the front. If you don't do this, both locks, your fly will not touch first. Your fly line will touch first because your loop will be bigger and like we are looking for a thin loop, like a loop with like one or two feet wide and that's that's a good thing for, like dry fly fishing especially, is like you're trying to have a subtle presentation.
Speaker 2:You want your line to fully unroll, unravel in the air and then either land all smooth together or your fly gets that extra little flick down and it lands first and everything collapses down onto the water. Yeah, and, and those, those are the casts that you know.
Speaker 1:You can do that, you can make a fishy, yeah, but uh, like for me, very seven layers, like to teach, like the fly fishing, and like, uh, like the third layer usually, like 80 percent of people are here like to make sure, like your fly touch first, after that it's, you do that with every single cast, with the reverse cast, the roll cast and like the parallel cast, and after that the level five is the trajectory of the fly line. It's been like right now, you know how to lock on every cast you can. On the same time, you can target your fish, you can move the trajectory of the fly line like to create an angle, like at 90 degrees on the front of you, on the left side or right side. You can change the trajectory. It means to do a mending before the fly line is touching the water. It's exactly that. Yeah, a mend cast, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:After that, level six is a double hole and the level seven is like, capable to do everything when you want and to change, like all the leaders and you know, like to to master it yeah, okay, and that's good, because, like on on my boat, when I'm taking people down and they're first learning, I don't always do this, but I sometimes say, like this year was the first time I started doing it to some people and I found that it did help. But I kind of would be like, okay, like there's different levels to this. So like the beginning of the day is where there's the most trout, so, like you know, a level three could catch fish, but lower down it's getting technical, you need to place your fly in the correct spot. So that's more like level five, six kind of stuff. And then you know, once in a while it's like well, what's level 10? Like level 10, you're rowing me, okay, like, calm down, let's achieve level three, let's achieve, let's achieve level three, let's achieve.
Speaker 2:You know, and a lot of it comes from just knowing what they're doing. So you know, I say level five or six is when someone's actually looking where am I going to cast next? And I don't have to tell them. I might tell them still, but being able to like learn and absorb that in a quick way because I only have them for a day, yeah, you know, teaching kind of becomes like how can I be the most efficient at getting you understanding what we're doing today? And usually halfway through the day it's like, oh, there we go, now we're doing it, you know. But it's like it's very important for what you the day. It's like oh, there we go, now we're doing it, you know.
Speaker 1:But it's like it's very important for what you're doing, like it's great because, like you know, like you don't know where it's from your clients on your boat, like for me, like I'm saltwater fishing for cove there's not too many people doing that. I have people from New York, texas, like you know. And it's like I say, like, on the boat, I will give you a lot of information, but you don't have to digest everything, just like take everything you can. But I just want to put you on the right path. Like we are together for six hours six to eight hours, you know what I mean like, um, at the end of a trip usually it's always we schedule with tide and stuff like that. But it's a lot of information because the fishing is different and you want your, your clients, to be comfortable and to catch some fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100 no, there's a guide. Yeah, it's, it's. You know, that's what makes a good guide and a good teacher in general is when they can understand how to translate the information because, like you said, you know someone's coming from texas. They might be used to redfish or that fish or this fish. They haven't fished coho on the fly in some wind, you know, so like they might need a little bit of help yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's.
Speaker 1:And like kuhu, like, are fighting differently. Like they jump a lot, they fight a lot. Like when, like for every like people who never, never do that before. Like on every fish, you see the backing on every single fish. You see the backing like all my reel, like, and I, as a customer, my customer, like, how long do you have on backing? Because if you have less, there's 100 feet, I would prefer to fish with my reel to make sure we don't….
Speaker 1:If it's a big fish, man, it's a fish of your life, like a 15, 16, 17-pound salmon on saltwater, on the fly, it's like, you know, it's pretty fun, it's pretty fun. You don't want to miss out and like on the on the feet of backing out, it's, uh, it's, it's not, it's not common, but it can happen. If it's a big fish, uh, yeah, it can happen. Yeah, I remember last year to to hook like a chinook, um, like on the bank. The bank is 10 feet deep. The only one thing the 20-pound fish have to do is run, not go deep, run, and it's super shallow. For like one kilometer long it's been. Like we have to crank the engine and to follow the fish. Super fun Like we fight the fish for 40 minutes like a beauty 20 pound chinook. You can have that on your line because you know, like chinook, hang out where the coho are and it's not it's not uncommon to hook chinook on a chinook when you are back tailing yeah, and chinook, fresh chinook in the ocean, with no flasher, no weight.
Speaker 2:That's the difference with fly fishing when you hook a salmon, you have no rod absorbing, like your rod's absorbing something. But when you've got a flasher and all that and you're trolling and you're just pulling them, the fight's so. Different when they have all the space to travel oh, dude, insane. Different when they have all the space to travel oh, dude, insane. And I, the only thing stopping them is your, your backing and your rod, like it's a different.
Speaker 1:It's a different tempo. Like I travel a little bit around the world to target big fish like I, I love to target chinook on the river, um like, but a 20 pound chinook on the ocean is worth like a 40 pound on the river, like guarantee. And I got few 40 pounds like and I prefer all the times like to get a 20 pounds, 18 to 25 pound chinook on the ocean, salt water, on the bank. Then it's just different. Like they're full shape, they're aggressive, they're here to eat and like that's.
Speaker 2:That's the big thing is in the river. They're not full shape or you know they're already. The second their body touches a fresh water inflow and that's things are changing. Their muscles changing, they're. You know they're now no longer feeding, they're now just. You know you're hitting those uh, aggressive takes and such. You're playing some mind game with them to eat, whereas on the ocean, like that was a, that was a food source yeah, yeah, like it's, uh, it's pretty, pretty impressive.
Speaker 1:Like you know, sometimes I put fly fishing rods on downriggers and we go fishing at 120 feet. Oh yeah, cool, that that is pretty insane. Yeah, because, like you know, like fly fishing rods don't have a huge amount of power of pulling, like yes, except like I have the new r8 from sage. Like it's, I love this rod. Like they pull a lot of weight and it's, um, it's pretty fun. But uh, it's, uh, yeah, it's very interesting. I fish with like 60 pound backing three new year, the backing almost all the time and uh, it's uh, pretty insane I've seen some like.
Speaker 2:You showed me some reels and I was like, damn, that's an arbor and a half, that's a lot of room. Um, while we're on this uh topic, you did mention a little bit ago, um, tuna. So you're, I think you're the first person I've ever seen catch tuna off the coast of Vancouver Island, and you've now done it a few times. Yeah, like.
Speaker 1:I guide here since 15 years, like during, like the last part of August and beginning of September, we have an opening for warm currents bringing like albacore, tuna, and some years the currents come close at 25 miles from the coast. It's been like it's close enough. Um, it's like one hour, one and a half hour, like a boat ride, like to to go there and, um, if the weather is good, um, we can target that on the fly. Usually we troll for them. This is bucktailing with fly a little bit bigger and with leader a little bit bigger. The average is like 15 to I quote, 35 pounds, the most, the biggest one on the fly. We try to do some casting. Casting is very difficult and complicated because the fish is super fast and we didn't see on the West Coast like the big, huge frenzy. You can see down south, like you know, when it's like 100 feet wide and stuff like that. Here we don't have too much like we can have, but it's better to, it's more productive to do some backtailing After that. The fight is yeah, the fight is insane, like I target to now with 11 and 12 weight, same kind of strategy than the Salman.
Speaker 1:The speed the speed is seven knots, extremely fast. It's been like you have to use like um, like a very, very sinking line, like 600 grams, something like that. Um and your fly have to be your head of your fly is extremely important has to be perfectly round, because at this speed you don't want your fly to twist. Do you know what I mean? I see what you're saying. Your fly has to swing extremely well. The tuna have extremely big eyes, extremely big, they can see everything. And the seven knots, it's just the walking speed for us, since there are when you have the hit, dude, be ready. Usually I ask like to always put the rod on the rod holder, because if you are not ready for the hit, I don't want you to lose the rod.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh yeah, I see what you're saying. You might be standing there for a minute, you might be standing there for 10 minutes or whatever amount of time, and if all of a sudden it just hits, you might literally have the flies in the water you can hit in two seconds.
Speaker 1:You have to be ready to catch some fish in two seconds. The drag have to be perfectly set up. The you know like when you put you check on every time like where goes your fly line, you want to make sure there is no knots, there is no um, you know like, turn around the ring, like no, you want to. Everything have to be perfect because they pull so hard. Then, yeah, every single mistake, you break everything or you lose. You break or you lose.
Speaker 2:Usually you lose Usually you lose, but it might happen. But you actually found some spots and started casting to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I cast just a few times, like usually we buckle way more because it's uh, it's probably if we want to catch fish, um, but uh, it's uh, the casting is pretty challenging, like you have to be extremely reactive. For example, for me I cast 100 feet in two-fold cast In less than 10 seconds. The fly is swimming and I have a lot of issues to touch fish Because I don't go fast enough and the retrieving is not fast enough. It's like we are not close enough for the feeling frenzy, yeah, and it's going us like we are not close. We are not close enough for the feeling frenzy, yeah, and it's going too fast. When we go on, sometimes there is some strategy to you go fast and you, you, you put your engine on return to have like a big, huge, like ball of foam behind your boat and you test on that. Uh, that can work. Um, some people put some, uh, the commercial boat put some water spray out of the boat. That works too, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just to disrupt the surface. Yeah, exactly Like everything is good.
Speaker 1:Usually when we troll we put some rapala or some different lure. When we have a fish, we leave the fish on the hook like that. Just cool, stay around us oh, interesting yeah yeah, yeah, that is very happen extremely often soon after we fish on, we keep the fish and we slow down the cast.
Speaker 2:We slow down the boat to cast what's your bag limit for those, since it's not really like you can't achieve that in a day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's 20 fish per day. Um, like, if you are, for, usually when we organize some, uh, some fishing trip like that, we go tuna fishing and the fly fishing is on the top. If it's possible, um, I guide for that. Um, there is three or four fishermen and it's 20 fisherman. There is not enough space on the boat to come back with like 80 fish.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. Yeah, wow, that's a lot of meat right there.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's 3,000 pounds of fish. It's not possible no, usually because after that you have to take, take care of it and you have to process it, because it's good to come back with a lot of fish in a boat, but after that you want to process that properly Because it's not cheap to go tuna fishing. We go super far out to try to find the fish. We have to go between 25 to 65 knots, 55 miles offshore. It's not close, because we have to fish in like minimum 600 feet, you know, when they start to go down until like 6,000. Oh yeah, 7,000 feet. Yeah, very deep between fish and surface.
Speaker 2:That's a big thing, man. That's a distance, yeah. So obviously just gas price alone is a huge one, yeah.
Speaker 1:Getting out there, like just to go up there, it's minimum 1,200 blocks of fuel.
Speaker 2:Now there was one more thing I definitely wanted to cover and I've heard it done a few times and that's halibut fishing on the fly.
Speaker 1:It's great to talk about that. I saw since a few years, like in Norway, they start to target halibut on the fly. I personally caught some halibut on the fly by mistake. It was not the targeted fish. The fight is very different. It's very powerful because it's a flat fish. The fight is very different. It's very powerful because it's a flat fish and I want to focus it a bit more next year for that, like in July, august, because they come close and we can target them in 40 feet of water.
Speaker 1:I want to find a few spots to try to do that. I have already a few strategies that work. I hook some fish I'm not sure it was halibut, but I didn't see the fish. You know what I mean and I'm pretty sure it was Like it was super heavy, same fight, but I broke the leader A few times. Like that, I fish 16 and 20 pound test fluorocarbon and I fish on nine, nine weight um destroyed. Yeah, like I, I fight the fish on the bottom. I leave the fish 10, 15 feet and when you go down, like I, lost everything.
Speaker 2:Like it's extremely powerful, like it's uh, yeah well, they're basically one big fin when they do that initial push downwards, that's a lot of force.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, like the the first one like the rod can absorb, but the second and third one like it's too much because, like your, your drag is set up like super hard to lift the fish up because he sticks on the bottom. And you got it and you push more, you pull more to make sure In one shot he's going down. No, I didn't work.
Speaker 2:Well, that's crazy, though I mean you're excuse me, you're definitely, you know you've. You're saying that you kind of um utilize certain spots. Like, once you figure out the spots and how to present that fly, there's no reason you can't do it. But then it's yeah, figuring out the gear, pulling up a decent size halibut not even that big, can be really tough because, like you said, they stick on the bottom um what you you, you like to target this kind of flat fish.
Speaker 1:You have to imagine like you have to fish a hole, like you have to target something with very it's not flat, because the halibut don't sit on flat bottom, they like to have a little bump and to wait for the food to come at them. So you have to find this kind of particular spot because you want to put your boat somewhere anchor, this time and to do like a drift. But you drift 30 feet deep. It means your boat is like maybe 50 feet up and you drift with like 100 feet of line. You know what I mean. Like it's because the time to go down, um, and you, you have to uh to target the spot properly to just put the fly the closest as the mouth is possible.
Speaker 1:And I'm pretty sure, like I start to work on the tube fly, huge tube fly to to look like a squid, because the squid like smell extremely strong, a very strong smell and like very more powerful than the earring or stuff like that. And, um, I want to put polar bear, like the squid is like maybe 10, 12 inches long and I will put a lot of scent, a lot of oil, a lot of stuff like that and put that on the bottom with super short leader and uh, to try, I you know, if you don't try, you never know you never know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people, there's someone out there that wants that. That you know.
Speaker 1:I've thought there's always dude the good thing with saltwater. You never know what you will get, because like I guide, I get for every kind of fish. I don't do just by fishing, I guide for jigging, I guide for salmon fishing and for everything. When, when you go offshore, like at like 10, 10 miles offshore, like you go jigging for for Hollywood, you don't know what you will find. Now you can find a shark, you can find a soul, you can sort of escape like it's um, and sometimes you you don't even see the fish but you lose everything. On other contest, you know what I mean. Yeah, like test, like everything, just like disappear. It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a cool way of doing it. You know we talk a lot about uh rivers on this uh podcast, so you're in a little bit of you know, a hundred pound test snapping it's. It's a thing. Like you said, said you, you have no idea what could be out there. You might have a good idea or at least know what you're targeting, but like who's to say that's?
Speaker 1:what's there? 20 pound test, fluorocarbon. I use rio line salt water. Like we have extremely good quality um and I get destroyed. Sometimes you never know If you cast on a bad kelp and you target usually to target a ko, I use 12 or 16-pound test. Sometimes you hit a Chinook Dude a Chinook. On 12-pound test or 16-pound test. Good luck, yeah, good luck on 12 pound test or 16 pound test. Good luck, yeah, yeah, yeah, good luck, like it's it's. After that, usually we have to follow the, we have to to to put on the engine and to follow the fish well, you talked about this with, uh, your chinook, fishing in the river.
Speaker 2:You know how many reels have you had just blow up, and that's that uh, myself not, but I saw quite a bit yeah, like I've had so much gear break due to chasing king salmon on the fly, you know I've had my running line snap. Watch my running line flutter out of my rod. Uh, chased my line down, got my line back, realize the fish is still on. Just hold on, because I was using 25 pound um tip it and things break.
Speaker 1:I thought I saw some people quit fishing, like targeting chinook, like it happened like five or six years ago. It was just after covid orid or during kovid or at the end or whenever. Like I was fishing here like catching fish, there's a dude show up with like a nice setup. Like he start to fish, like I give him a fly for, try that. Like that is working. He tried hook effect. Dude fight the fish for five, six minutes and boom, lose the fly line. Oh, shoot, like man. But like oh, you go at the shop, buy a new fly line. Like put the new fly line. I think like do you want some help? You don't know, I'm good. Like put that. I give him a fly again.
Speaker 1:Like he puts the fly in a bowl like boom fish on, he broke. He broke again. He was fishing with backing 10 pounds. Like I look at the, look, the problem is not your nuts, the problem is not your fly. Like the problem is your backing. Take the backing, put on it and like it was broken, the guy go back at the fishing store, buy a casting rod. Like with everything to cast, not fly fishing. The guy cast, he took a fish, he was pulled out by the fish. The guy at the fishing store did a bad nut and he lost the fish with all the line. That's a lesson. That's a lesson. The guy quit. Thanks a lot for your help. He broke the rod on my face. I stopped for this year I'm done. He spent almost 500 bucks.
Speaker 2:You know I don't target king salmon on the fly anymore, mostly because I'm not planning on eating them and then once they're in the river I'm already targeting trout. So it's not like I'm, you know, fancy and I'm like, oh, I didn't do that. It's just kind of one of those things where it naturally happened. Now, the few times I have hooked one, you know like I used to target them all the time and I just reels would blow up or get damaged in some way or another. You know I learned a lot about fly reels and what to look for and what I'm wanting to buy. So that's a positive. But yeah, a coho is kind of the perfect salmon for me. I love a good coho.
Speaker 1:For trout fishermen or people who target trout. Most of the echo is perfect, like dude it is, it's, it's uh, it's not more than 15 pounds. It's, it's doable on every kind of of you know, six, seven, eight weight. You don't have to to use like huge, huge gear and they're super fun to target like they jump, they run, they do everything.
Speaker 2:They're aggressive for their fly, because that's the thing with, like spring salmon sometimes they don't really want to eat a fly. Chum's pretty good for it.
Speaker 1:The thing, the thing for king. When you target king is like you have the occasion to catch the biggest fish of your life. It's one time only, it's just you go. I bring people. I have some people who come like from europe, so look they, they book few days and I just want to to to got like a 30 pounds chinook. Like you know, when you have a 15 kilo fish, like online, it's it's dream come true for some people. Huh, it's 100, like dude, like it's a salmon on the fly, more than 15 kg, whoa you we were this season.
Speaker 2:You must have seen a really good return in the oceans in terms of, like, what was passing by this? Oh yeah, oh yeah, we on the cowag we saw some stuff that was insane. Yeah, the amount of jack coho and jack spring salmon that we had was pretty cool because we would catch a lot of these jacks on like three, four weights. Oh good, and you know it was so fun. You know people would be like whoa, what is that fish? And I would be like, well, you just caught a salmon and they're like what, like it's not like massive, and I'm like it's a jack salmon. And then we get it in closer and they're just especially for the people that don't get to fish, salmon Dude, like salmon on the fly.
Speaker 1:You're part of the club, you know what I mean. It's not the same. Like, it's a, I caught a salmon on fly fishing. Like we are. We are extremely lucky we are on vancouver island, we are extremely lucky. Like dude, we can target the five kind of salmon we have um a fishing. I'm from france, you know the lovely french accent, you can't miss it. And we don't have this variety in europe, like the, the amount of fish, like the quality of fish, like the quantity of rivers, like it's it's.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's good to realize like the fishing is insane, like insane in bc, like um, like between the salmon, the trout, like if you go up north, like the, everything, like and saltwater is a something. Uh, 30 years ago Tofino was the mecca, was Christmas Island, like with right now you know what I mean this is a spot to go. Like, this is crazy because crazy fishing. 30 years ago Tofino was like that for coho and like right now, like with the problem in the ocean, like that went down and right now the, the salmon start to come back. Because, like, the hatchery are working way better, like there is a there's a better, better, like ocean life. Because, like, less fish farms, the fish farms, like they're part of the problem, but it's not just that.
Speaker 2:No, but there's less of them now, so that's probably a good thing.
Speaker 1:They didn't change too much, unfortunately. Oh okay, yeah, fair enough, yeah, but we can see more fish. It's been like I was like you asked me like 10 years ago about fish farm. I was like you asked me like 10 years ago about fish farm. I will tell you this is a problem. They are part of the problem, but the ocean is way more important than fish farm. For all the return, like right now you can see that it's flagrant Like when there is less pollution, like if there is some currents, like some food, everything. Like right now we see the difference since COVID. It's crazy, but it was less fishing and everything came back. Like you know what I mean. Like for one or two years it was less intensive fishing and I'm pretty sure that helped at every level fishing and you, I'm pretty sure that help at every level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and you know, anytime we're looking at populations going down in fishing this is my own thoughts um, I tend to think of, like, the food source. So, like in the cowagin, with all the tubers going down with their sunscreen, that was harming the fish. It wasn't really harming the fish, I'm sure it did a part, but it was harming the eggs of the bugs. Yeah, so there was less food. Yeah, you look at the ocean, you know they're pulling up insane numbers of how of herring well, salmon need herring, tuna need her, everyone needs herring to survive.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, two years, two years of no less of that, yeah, that's probably a good thing, oh yeah, no, no, it's good and at every level, like on a coalition, you are extremely lucky to have, like the organization who do the, the management of the river, do an excellent good job. There is a lot of pressure and there is a lot of fish. Yeah, it's like very, very, some fishermen in kohi chana, it's not, uh, it's, it's a busy river and um and like there is a very nice amount of fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like um we saw incredible size fish this year. Like on average I'd say you're looking at like 16 to 18 inch trout that were shoulders super heavy, yeah, or super healthy sorry, I meant to say, and you know, the chance of bigger fish was there as well like we saw a lot of 22 inch trout. Um, we, it was just really good to see. Every year I honestly have been guiding. Now that I'm so submerged in it, um, it's to me, I've just been seeing more and more fish and healthy, healthy fish. People are always like astonished when they, you know, come from the us or something. They're like wow, these fish not only fight hard because it's it's you know come from the us or something. They're like wow, these fish not only fight hard because it's it's you know, the river is rain fed, so she goes up, she's super high. These fish need to fight those currents. So they're super strong, super healthy and they grow to a great size.
Speaker 1:That's an amazing fishery right there but, dude, like the amount of food there is in this river oh, incredible, like each time I go fishing there's different hatch. Like I'm freaking out because I I don't have the right fly. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like it's it's, it's constantly evolving. Yeah, I've, when I started getting really good at um, you know, my fly tying to the point where I have like a few nymphs, now a lot. They're all just very suggestive because you try to hone in on one hatchet on that river and good luck yeah yeah, going on a lot going on.
Speaker 1:I like to play with aggressivity a lot, like you know I like to to fish trimmers like a lot. I like that like it's like I know that's like it's super fun yeah, it's super fun, it is yeah, but, um, yeah, for co-fishing, like I said. Like aggressivity, like there's some key, some key key stuff to to to have is like to make sure, like you change your speed, like go you cast and change your spin during your retrieve, like go fast, change the rhythm, change you have to be. We play with aggressivity, like it varies way more aggressivity than anything else and you will never beat this, this speed.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, go as hard as you can as fast as you can play into their mind. That is like a big key thing with coho is like you'll see it too when, whether you're on a river or the ocean, at one point in time you'll be stripping as hard as you can and all of a sudden you'll see a roll and, uh, you'll see maybe multiples, like I've the amount of times I've seen four or five coho come to a streamer. It's almost more, that's almost more frequent where you see like a group of them come to it. So like all you need is one you know you just need one and change and not being robotic.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no. Like routine does not work very well. Like it's's, it's what I, I, you know, everybody start. It's like routine, always the same strip. Like you, you fish with leeches or stuff like that. No, co-fishing is so important. Aggressivity, like you know. Like every, everything can be eaten by everything. Like you have to be scared. If you are scared, he come at you. Yeah, it's like. Uh, yeah, it works like that. Like, um, they, they then that they are not here to make friends and they are here to eat because, like, they are like a few, few weeks away from the river and they have to gain like half pound a day. You know what I mean. Uh, like it's, it's like they have to eat a lot before to get into the river yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1:That is a really good point like each time, like I like to, to, to dress, like you know, to fillet the fish properly. I used to work on the kitchen like I I'm not too bad at that and each time like it's I, I show like you, you see, like take the fly, like the fly, look like what we try to target. It's pretty fun Because it's usually like a lot of sandhill, yeah, yeah, yeah, sandhill, yeah. Like very long, skinny, or like green, bluish, but the pink work man, pink and orange are on the top, like orange, like chartreuse, like, depending on luminosity, like you know, like if the sun is behind you, on the front of you, or like you know, if the water is very murky, you want to use like a little bit more glow. If it's early in the morning, not too much light, you want to use something like darker. But there's always one pink and after that I change the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah always got to have your pink in there. I do it. Pink, yeah, all the time. All the time, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, flo, we covered everything we wanted to talk about. Yeah, do you ever target sea run cutthroat?
Speaker 1:Yes, sometimes, but to be straightforward, when you have 10, 12 pound coho just on the side, you, you, that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, a lot of the beach stuff that you're talking about really applies to sea run cutthroat as well, food source included. I I would say like definitely fishing.
Speaker 1:The structure that's a big one because, like currents, when you target estuary there is always few currents. You know when the both water are mixing together. Yeah, like sometimes you can. There's different kind of estuary here. We have a little lot of little stream to go in the ocean, like this, and you can see the difference of water like every, everything around that, like the pattern a little bit different here, like on the west coast, when you target siren cutthroat, this little uh fly white. They love the white and usually, like uh popper, can work too on the surface. We are not shy. Yeah, like for coho too.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, poppers in the ocean, yeah, yeah yeah, I've had chases. I've never had one link up, but mind you, I just don't do that all that often these days. But for what? For link up? No, I did. I did poppers for Coho and had had some success with chases, but never actually linked up. And then for cutties. I've had a few blowups on my flies as well, but no link up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like cutties, like they are super, super weird. It's very easy to understand like the behavior Like cutties, like when they're on the ocean, when they live on the ocean and you know the siren one, um, sometimes like they are very predatory, since they will eat a lot of big stuff, um, but sometimes they are picky and um, personally I, when I don't have them, there's a spot like very well known in Tofino, it's called Grise Bay. When you can have like sheer and cut road, they are extremely sensible for noise and the noise like your fly line is making on the water and the spot is 15 feet deep, like extremely sensible feet deep. Like extremely sensible. Like if your fly line like do too much noise for like five, ten minutes you will not have any fish and after that you stop and you can see them up. They come back, they jump. Yeah, like it's, it's a, it's very, very interesting. It's more like a trout fishing in ocean than saltwater fishing. You you know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It is technical stuff. It takes a lot of time to kind of dial. Things in Each beach could be different. They might prefer this tide, that tide, this food source, that food source.
Speaker 1:For example, on the other side of the island, on the east coast, like on the side of Comox, qualicum Beach and stuff like that, the fly is totally different. It's smaller, fly longer. Leader, like you know, intermediate like I, I fished um often this year too, like just to uh, to give a shot a little bit, so fishing is extremely different. Um, the fish look way more picky. They see way more stuff because you are, the stripping is like way slower. The, the fly, the size of the fly is is insanely small, or I don't know. Maybe I'm used to fish with big flies but um, you know, like half inch little shrimp, california, neil, or stuff like that like works very well on the other side, here not too much, it's um, they are more like on a big prey. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Maybe it kind of makes sense. I mean, the island is basically a giant rock bar Ocean pushes stuff up, big stuff. Stay on the outside, inside lit.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, that could be a thing, yeah, yeah outside, inside lit, um, you know, that could be a thing, I agree, but like it's a like. When, um, when people come here, like from the east coast, like your hole, your fly are enormous, we never catch anything, don't worry about like I think this is normal.
Speaker 2:That's not even big. So, yeah, man, well, that's good. Well, I'm glad that we got that because, uh, like we said earlier, you know, people were wanting to know about the coho fishing and here it is an episode just made for coho fishing on the fly and in the ocean if people have more questions, I'm very open to share my knowledge.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I do that since 15 years and it's always cool to to share knowledge. Like you come into finno, I can tell you where to fish. Usually there is like three or four beaches, like tonquin beach is the most popular because there is not too many people. When you do some casting you have to be careful of what is on your back and mackenzie beach, because you can go on a very sand break and you can go on a bank like you stand up on your short and you can do, if not, like just a float tube. Man, a float tube. I have so much fun on float tube. Oh yeah, interesting, two men fish from the beach like easier, like you like that, like you can fish almost everywhere, yep just keep an eye on where, how far you go out.
Speaker 1:You don't go far, yeah yeah, like you have to stay on the beach yeah, yeah, stay close to the beach because ocean tides let's not kill anyone.
Speaker 2:Quick disclaimer we are not responsible for your fishing and your harm self-harm yeah, yeah um, well, I really do appreciate uh, you hopping on with me before once I end the recording, don't hang up on me, I wanted to chat just for a couple more seconds, um, but, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with uh, with us. And, um, yeah, I can't wait to get out and try some coho on the ocean. Yeah, it's been a while, so so, yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:It would be a pleasure to have you on the boat just to have fun. It's a pretty fun fishery to do. It's always great to share some knowledge. At the end you have to be humble for what varies on the front of you and help is always welcome yeah, you're never actually going to help someone and you know, in fishing maybe you could help someone and regret it.
Speaker 2:But in fishing you help someone and you'll probably just feel really good about it because that's what it is, personally, why I enjoy the work I do.
Speaker 1:I'm a fly fishing guide since almost two decades. It's to see your face when you have a big fish on you know, when the rod is bent like crazy and you're like what the fuck is going on. Like that, I like it. Or when you target a fish like you think you're on the rock and on one shot, like oh, the rock is going on, like that, I like it. Or when, when, when you target a fish, like you think you're on the rock and on one shot, like oh, the rock is moving, yeah, okay, let's go. You know it's um, it's always like to have like a sort of fishing. The fish are fighting a lot, a little bit more than the river, like it's a. The fight is different, the power is different and there's a lot of people who do not realize the power of the fish. And that is what I love for the saltwater side of it, yeah, Well, that's a great place to end it on.
Speaker 2:All right, flo, thanks again so much, and until next time, I guess.
Speaker 1:Okay, until next time, I guess. Okay, until next time, my friends, all right.