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Johnna: We are so excited to share this conversation with you guys today. I want to make sure before we start this episode to draw your attention to our show notes. There [00:01:00] are a ton of links. that are going to give you more information about the topics we are talking about today, source material, you don't want to miss it, as well as where you can find our guest now.

With that, I'm Jonah Harris, and this is At the Bus Stop by the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast.

Hello, and welcome back to the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. Today, we're Super excited. We have Christy Bragg with us, and not only is she a dear friend and a fierce mama, an advocate, she's also on her way to becoming a licensed therapist, and has just a ton of knowledge to share with us. So thank you, Christy, for joining us.

You also do some work with an organization called Louder Than Silence, and I just want to start our episode with you doing a little plug for [00:02:00] that and explaining a little bit more about what you do. Oh, 

Christi Bragg: so gracious. Um, louder than silence. So yes, I'm Christy. I'm glad that we're able to have this conversation.

It's Well overdue, um, in a lot of different spaces, but, um, the work that I do with Louder Than Silence is we, um, do long term care for those who've experienced sexual violence. And so we do reimburse EMTR, we facilitate groups for female adults who maybe navigated sexual abuse as children or even as adults, and they're just now processing with it.

So it's not the immediate aftermath. of victimization, but it comes in a little bit later when those other services have disappeared. And so when those other services have disappeared, um, we kind of think of it as a continuum of care service to those who have navigated sexual violence. That's so amazing.

Johnna: And so we're going to put a link in our show notes. And if you [00:03:00] want to learn more about that organization or that's something that you feel like you want to partner with financially, go donate. They can always use more money over there. There's always a need. So go support them if you can. Alright, well today we have you on the show to speak specifically about MinistrySafe.

Before we get into what MinistrySafe is, we want to talk about why we are having this conversation right now. So recently Austin Stone released a statement regarding their worship pastor Aaron Ivey and his alleged patterns of sexual exploitation, predatory manipulation, and abuse of influence Three adult men and one minor male as the known current victims.

Many of our listeners will be familiar with this church. It is a Southern Baptist church that had dual affiliation with, you guessed it, the Acts 29 network. Aaron Ivey had a major influence on worship within the Acts 29 network and was looked at as a cultivator in that space. It [00:04:00] appears from that statement that the church did some things well in this instance, such as responding quickly, naming behaviors publicly, and reporting to the authorities.

But as I personally read the statement, I got to a portion that says, Ministry Safe has been in formed and will walk with us to ensure that we do everything possible to serve the victims and those who have been sinned against. This statement gave me a major pause, and we're going to dig into the why behind that in a minute.

But first, let's talk about what Ministry Safe is. Many of you may be familiar trainings for churches to safeguard against abuse and liability in congregations. Ministry Safe is mentioned. Often, when churches make statements about sexual abuse that has occurred in their organizations, we have heard Ministry Safe referred to multiple times by churches as a form of victim care in response to [00:05:00] disclosures.

Here's what the Ministry Safe website says that they are. Ministry Safe was created by legal professionals who are sexual abuse experts after Decades of litigating sexual abuse cases, Gregory Love and Kimberly Norris founded Ministry Safe to help ministries meet legal standards of care and reduce the risk of sexual abuse by creating preventative measures.

Tailored to fit the needs of churches and ministry programs. With over 65 years combined experience in sexual abuse litigation, consultation, and crisis management, Love and Norris understand the risk of sexual abuse and how it unfolds in children's programming. Under the services provided on their website, you're going to find legal services, trainings, screening forms, and an online system of prevention.

Missing from their services is victim care. [00:06:00] And this is why we have Christy here with us today. With all of this knowledge of what Ministry Safe is, how does the statement by Austin Stone hit you, firstly, as a professional on your way to being a licensed therapist that works in this space?

Christi Bragg: It is helpful to have, I would consider this an intervention, right? The curriculum that they offer, that the churches are placing people in their congregation who want to serve and work with kids, that is a beneficial program to offer. Even in any kind of abuse. It's, it's not a taboo subject. It's just one of those things that is not generally discussed out in the open, or there's a lot of hesitancy to talk about it.

So from that standpoint, having a curriculum that's being utilized in these different spaces, i. e. churches, places of vulnerability, it's a helpful curriculum for, They're [00:07:00] participants to go through. 

Johnna: We love to see preventative measures in churches that protect our most vulnerable from sexual violence. A big draw to this service that I hear from leaders is that it helps to protect their organizations from liability.

If you didn't know, it's a huge liability when a church leader or staff member commits sexual abuse within your organization. What I find interesting about Ministry Safe is it was founded by law partners from the firm Norris Love. They have 65 years combined experience litigating in child sex abuse settings.

From what I've been told, they've litigated on behalf of victims prior to starting this company. 

Christi Bragg: Yeah, so it's interesting if you take a look at their website, under their services. It's all about legal services. Legal services, they have an institute probably where their curriculum is held. They have a risk management training to mitigate risk.

Interrogations, online self assessments. They also have like [00:08:00] a legal team that does assessments. My assumption is that those assessments are they go into a church. And they assess their protocols and their procedures that are already operating. And then they can give feedback into, this particular area of your policy could be a problem, so we need to change this.

So it's all legal. Right. It's all from a legal framework. 

Johnna: And something to note, Wade Mullen did an incredible thread breaking down a ministry save video that was posted and is now private. And some of the concerns that it raised for him. In the video, when they are speaking of lawyers who represent abuse survivors, they make this statement.

There are infinite number of plaintiffs lawyers who will take those cases. They are lining up to take cases. There's a lot of money in this. Their pictures are on the billboard on the highway to take the case. When asked, if you don't represent the victims, who will help them? They responded, [00:09:00] We feel called to mend and build up the church, not to tear it down.

And when speaking about suing churches, they imply it's robbing God. Here is another quote from the video. We don't sue churches, okay? Plenty of people will. I mean, there's some practical aspect of that, too, like suing the body of Christ. Meeting Jesus someday and telling him, I gave back 10%? You know, it's just Unwise, I feel.

So this is interesting because they seemed to be fine with litigating on behalf of victims prior to forming Ministry Safe. 

Jay Coile: Why would you sue the people that were paying your bills? 

Christi Bragg: Very good. Very good. Stupid, Jonna. Come on. That's a fantastic question, Jay. Dare 

Jay Coile: you think that, Jonna? Come on. You're paying the bills.

Johnna: I'm kidding. Well, you're not 

Jay Coile: kidding though. Yeah, I'm not kidding. It's a never ending circle, right? And it's ridiculous. Like it's 

Johnna: ridiculous. It's a [00:10:00] conflict of interest. They can't be on the side of victim of sexual abuse who is suing their client. Like, they have to be on the liability side, which again, that's okay, like different things for different organizations, right?

Like, we need organizations that are putting in preventative measures that are representing churches and making sure that they are safe for vulnerable people to be at. But what I have an issue with is this idea that this is, like, victim centric. Maybe the training is, like, we're trying not to create more victims out of churches, but as far as a response, they are not victim centric.

They are 1, 000 percent on the side of the institution, and that's where they are going to stand. With that, Christy, did you want to say anything else, like, as a professional before we move on? 

Christi Bragg: So, I'm in a lot of different spaces. Crimes Against Women, it's a massive conference that's held for prosecutors, advocates, [00:11:00] counselors, psychiatrists, um, it's, it's hosted in DFW.

Now, Crimes Against Women, I, I don't see any of their stuff in those spaces. That's not that it doesn't exist in those spaces, it's just Where I interact in the world of sexual violence, I don't encounter their stuff very often. It might just be because it's done for churches and not done in the environments that I'm in, i.

e., you know, more secular environments. 

Johnna: Right. For me, just on this side of things where we have people reaching out that have experienced various degrees of different types of abuse in religious settings. I feel like we need like 30 organizations doing preventative work for churches and we need like 30 organizations that are trained and equipped and ready to come in and do victim care and 30 other organizations that can come do investigations and actually understand scope.

Which is another concerning [00:12:00] thing about the Austin Stone Statement that we can talk about in a minute. Before we do that, I wanted to have you on in particular because you have your own experience with Ministry Safe. Personally, your family does. It affected how I read the Austin Stone Statement. It affects how I perceive situations that It's being said from stage or in statements that that is their plan for victim care after abuse is disclosed.

And I believe that it's really important information for our listeners or congregants of Austin Stone to understand what it is like from your side of the table to experience Ministry Safe after abuse disclosure. 

Christi Bragg: So to, yes, we have a very personal interaction with Ministry Safe, but in order to interact with Ministry Safe, we would have actually had to talk with them, and that never occurred.

So we navigated the abuse disclosure from one of our daughters. [00:13:00] She was 11 when it happened at a church camp. You know, years later, As she's processing through some different things, she discloses abuse. And so I go into mom mode of like, you know, you go into a what the hell mode. When you go into that mode, one of the things that I started to look at was, well, wait a minute, we have Ministry Safe.

Now at the time, I thought Ministry Safe was something that this church had come up with. I didn't realize it was a completely separate organization. And most people don't, especially if you're at a big church. I was a big church. So you just assume like, this is just another great program that my church is coming up with to keep people safe.

And you want those programs. Like you're not, you're, we're not here advocating against. It's not an absolute measure to be able to protect, it's just an interventive [00:14:00] measure to be able to protect. Anyway, so, at some point in our story, I began to ask questions and couldn't figure out what was going on. Why policy?

I'm a policy person, so I couldn't figure out how someone had access to our child. That seemed like a policy issue to me, that something wasn't followed. And so what I did is I asked to speak with someone from MinistrySafe. I just thought it was someone at the church. And so in asking that question of an executive elder, uh, his response to me was Well, we actually can't do that.

That would be a conflict of interest. And it was at that point in time that my husband and I realized, Oh, wait a minute, a conflict of interest. Like, I know legal language. Why would that be a conflict of interest? And then you realize that this organization or this, you know, entity has been in place the whole time.

And so like when my daughter disclosed and We reached out to an executive elder to notify him of just what [00:15:00] she had briefly said, right? We haven't done trauma therapy at that point or any of those things. So, and I know now in my role of what I'm doing, like you don't quiz your kid, right? You get them to the proper authorities, let people who are forensic interviewers and different things like that, let them do that job because you don't want to re traumatize somebody.

Now we know that within 48 hours Ministry Safe was notified. She disclosed in February of several years ago. This is way years back, disclosed in February. So by April, I'm asking to have a meeting with someone at the church because we haven't heard anything from them. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know, you kind of start coming out of the trauma response and you're going, wait, they owe us some answers as far as like what the policies were and why things were or were not followed.

At that point in time, I think it was like in June that we actually got to sit down with. The executive elder, and at that point in time is when he, you know, said to us, well, that would be a conflict of [00:16:00] interest. So you don't ever get to find out these little ins and outs until you do discovery, until you do bring a legal lawsuit, because when you're navigating, I think we, I mean, we've talked about this, John, and we navigated that space for a good 13 months before we got legal counsel.

So oftentimes, I would say that that's a vulnerability that the church preys on. whether they see it as preying on that or not, because you're a member. So in our case, you know, we were in an ACT29 church, so we're a covenant member. First of all, there's a, there's a covenant that says you're not going to bring a lawsuit against your church.

So that's in the covenant membership. Second of all, you are in this place of such vulnerability that you are just willing to trust, like, They mean well and you will gaslight yourself over and over and over again. And it was when I got into some of those, um, like the advocacy area where we're at an advocacy center and it's a secular environment and they're affirming what we were feeling.[00:17:00] 

And experiencing and saying, no, that's actually not okay. That's a very big red flag. That's when you begin to kind of come to, because in church world, or I call it church land, like in church land, you're not going to get that. You're not going to have people telling you what you're going to have people doing is giving you Roman scriptures about not going to court with your brother or how you should reconcile and all of those different things.

And you're sitting here thinking like a crime has been committed. against my child. How can you tell me that I need to just forgive and reconcile? Reconciliation doesn't occur if there's not apology and acknowledgement of what someone has done. And so that's why people take the legal road. It's not because they want to sue somebody.

I have yet to meet a family or, or a survivor who, it started off as I just wanted to, what was their quote on Ministry Safe? 

Johnna: We don't sue churches, okay? Plenty of people will. I mean, there's some practical aspect of that too, of like, [00:18:00] suing the body of Christ. Meeting Jesus Sunday and telling Him, I gave them back 10%, you know, it's unwise, 

Christi Bragg: I feel.

So I would say two things to that, is one, you're not going to stand before Jesus and Jesus is going to be like, wait, you took my 10%? Because what Jesus is going to do, because of the Jesus I know, is He's going to be just as outraged that this child in the flock was abused, and this is the way that the church is treating that child as a whole.

Second of all, and I think it's important to point out with Ministry Safe, is when someone brings legal litigation in a civil suit against a church. They are not suing that church. They are suing the church's insurance. So the thing that I kept telling myself was, my kid didn't fall and break her hip in your foyer.

Someone in your staff assaulted her. There's a big difference. Like, we're not talking about a broken hip here. We're talking about assault and the things that we know [00:19:00] about assault, right, and the mental health impacts and all of those different things. So when someone brings a lawsuit against a church, they're not suing Jesus.

They're suing an insurance policy. The way you can kind of minimize it is like the next time you're in a car wreck. Because that's what I started saying to people when they would say to me, when they would basically give me their opinion on what we shouldn't be doing. I would say two things. The next time you're in a car wreck, don't file the insurance, because it's not necessary.

And then also too, when it happens to your child, Then you can have an opinion that I'll care about because it's a big difference to how I had all kinds of opinions Before it happened to my child, right? And so in those spaces You're not litigating the church. In fact, the church's portion that they actually pay out.

It's like pennies compared to what? And they have paid for, which is an insurance policy, to pay out in the event that something like that occurs. And you can prove [00:20:00] liability or they decide to settle. I mean, there's all kinds of different caveats as how they can handle the legal process. So when 

Johnna: you bring up insurance.

In your specific situation, it was your church's insurance was Church Mutual with, which if you're a pastor listening, that could be your insurance. Like it's a very well known insurance company for churches. Can you explain what you learned about MinistrySafe and Church Mutual? 

Christi Bragg: Yeah, so it was in, uh, I'm going to have the month wrong, but I know it was sometime in 2019.

They went into a partnership with one another. Church Mutual, who is a big provider of insurance policies for churches, they went in partnership with Ministry Safe. And so that partnership is, you know, first of all, when have you ever, like, sought your insurance to pay for something they actually paid for it, right?

Like, I think. Everybody can agree that most people's experience with their insurance is frustrating. So in this situation, [00:21:00] you have MinistrySafe saying, it would be interesting to kind of explore and see if there's a discount if people utilize MinistrySafe and have Church Mutual as their insurer. I'm sure MinistrySafe partners with them.

with other insurances, but that's the big one. I just remember thinking, this is a disaster waiting to happen because to me, it seemed like a conflict of interest, right? You have this insurance company and you have a, I'll call it, you know, ministry safe as a curriculum, you have a preventative measure, and then you have an insurance company 

Johnna: in that space.

And for me, I was like, That actually seems brilliant. If that is the way that we're going to get churches to actually care about putting preventative measures in place, then, like, go for it. Get yourself a little discount, guys. Like, do your thing. But what concerned me is that you don't. I don't. I don't. I don't.

I don't. on your journey to choosing to go through litigation against your church's insurance company. You weren't there at the beginning. When [00:22:00] you first, when your daughter disclosed and you're first going to the church, like you're just like swimming out at sea kind of in grief and trauma and shock.

And you're just thinking like, help us. And you're going to your church for help as well as to alert them, but everything you're saying in those initial meetings. Your church is Well represented. A hundred percent. In your case, they have an insurance company that kicked in, MinistrySafe is potentially providing, well, from what we know, within 48 hours, you know, like they're made aware and providing counsel.

Based on their website, it's even goes as far as saying legal counsel. You have no idea that what you're saying in those meetings can actively impact the information that that insurance company has to use against you to argue against funding help for your child. 

Christi Bragg: Oh, absolutely. So churches will have different things like a no fault policy.

They can open up a [00:23:00] policy where they take responsibility, right? And so that would be where there's not a cap. Usually a church will have a capped policy, and if that cap is removed, it just provides the victim of the abuse. They're able to file bills related to that situation. And so what's so interesting Also, in what we had navigated, and I've come across it multiple times with other people, is the insurance was never offered, like it was never, the insurance was We actually asked about the insurance policy probably I was thinking it was probably 11 months or something later And that just came from a brother that works in corporate America And he's like, have you checked with their insurance policy?

And I thought oh they have insurance like I didn't I didn't know He's like, yeah, you should check into that. And so most people You're in a trauma state, and when you enter into that space, you do not know the ins and outs of what [00:24:00] people have access to. If they have an insurance policy, that would have never crossed my mind.

That they have legal counsel, that, that didn't cross my mind until that summer when they said it would be a conflict of interest because they represent us. What ends up happening in church spaces is survivors navigate that space widely unrepresented by legal counsel. And that can be a tough one because if you're navigating a criminal suit, you do need to interact with, you know, your prosecutor.

Let them know that you are obtaining legal counsel to navigate this other thing. I mean, people do it. There's so many different ways to do it. But yeah, we went a good 13 months before we even began to seek legal counsel. And it was solely because their words weren't matching up with their actions. And that's what happens with so many people is there is a lack of care.

And that's why we were wanting to talk about this is because Ministry Safe is listed in that [00:25:00] article or the thing about Austin Stone as going forward, you know, with victim care. Well, even on their website, they don't talk about victim care. They don't offer victim care, so that's what was deeply disturbing, because, you know, if people can learn anything from our experiences, like, I would like to save them the pain and the heartache, or minimize it, you know, and the disillusionment that can occur from navigating that With a church, when their priority, it's not that they don't care about safety.

The priority is to protect the brand and the church. No matter what they say. The Austin Stone article, a PR team wrote that. I would be shocked that they didn't. It 

Jay Coile: actually says, Ministry Safe has been informed and will walk with us to ensure that we do everything possible to serve the victims and those who have been sinned against.

And then when you describe what you went through, that statement's a very disingenuous statement. It's a statement that's alluding to like, [00:26:00] here's this group that's going to help, when in all reality, that group's going to help the church. Yes. It doesn't sound like we're going to be forthcoming with how to navigate this from a victim perspective.

It's alluding to that it's like that, but that's not the reality that you've experienced and you're describing. And to me, It just goes with everything we're hearing in SBC world and conservative evangelicalism, whatever you want to say, that it's all about protecting the brand. And behind the brand, there is an infrastructure that is in place to keep that brand in place, no matter what.

Horrific events actually happen to people inside or outside the four walls of a church and involve a pastor or a leader in something that brings life altering damage to an individual. I can't think of a better example to say how far our churches are away from Jesus than this. It's just, it blows 

Christi Bragg: me away.

Think of it [00:27:00] this way, in their description, they say, send against. A crime was committed. We're not talking about like, I thought this awful thing about this person. We're talking about a punishable 20 year felony crime in the state of Texas, because I reside in Texas. So having an understanding of the laws, I believe it said there was alcohol involved, you know, illegal substance My background is in mental health and substance misuse, and so we see vulnerable populations all the time where substances are used in order to abuse, to be perpetrated.

The first 

Jay Coile: incident talks about also indecent exposure with a teenage male victim. I mean. 

Christi Bragg: That's a crime. And under Texas law, it is a crime. It's a crime. Right. Yeah. The gap 

Jay Coile: between 2011 and 2024, there's four incidents that we 

Johnna: know of, right? That the elder board found. Which is also another concerning thing.

[00:28:00] Yeah, who's the elder board? Are they all FBI agents? Yeah, 

Jay Coile: I mean, I remember when we did elder boards at our church, those dudes couldn't investigate anything, so 

Johnna: Right, and that's like, that's where this concern One of our 

Jay Coile: elders fell asleep on service every Sunday. 

Johnna: That's true! And that's like why we wanted to have this conversation.

is that statement. I think we're so used to just the worst of the worst statements that I watched the survivor community, even some advocates, be like, yes, we're praising Austin Stone. And I personally was like, pump the brakes, credit where credit's due. It seems like according to the timeline that you are presenting without us having any other voices to know that you have done some things like correctly.

And I do. want to validate that. At the same time, is there another team coming in to investigate this that's actually qualified and a third party that [00:29:00] doesn't have conflict of interest? The fact that your statement about victim care solely lies within this idea that Ministry Safe is going to be walking you through that is concerning considering they can't even really talk to victims as an unbiased third party that's there to care for them.

because they represent the church. They represent that 

Christi Bragg: church. And they're paying for a service, right? So they're doing their job. You know, what would serve Austin Stone in the best way is for them to reach out to local advocacy groups in the Austin area who work in sexual violence. who work in this space to provide counseling.

No qualms with, you know, I have my own thoughts on biblical counseling and different things like that, but to be able to actually provide care. For those that are really struggling with this, what they're also going to see is people who have experienced sexual violence. [00:30:00] being re triggered. I mean, that's what happened in our situation.

And having navigated as a child, and then having this happen to my child, and thinking that I had done all the things to protect her, and then realize that all my measures didn't protect her. They're gonna see a re triggering in their, you know, church body. Instead of offering their church body platitudes and like, moving forward, and God is so good, and blah blah blah blah, you know, like God is in this, and you know, just all the language, like what was so funny about that.

Press release that they did was my husband had no idea Well, I mean we try to stay out of this space as much as possible We kind of tiptoe in it very quietly But what was so funny about it is I start reading a sentence to him and he's like, why are you rereading that? Thinking that it was about our stuff not realizing that it was about Something recently and so at some point or another They need to stop regurgitating the language, because for those [00:31:00] of us who are in this community, or who find this community, we know that that's been said before.

And so it becomes meaningless, because you can say a whole lot of words, but if you don't have action to match that, it's kind of useless. That does not comfort a family who's in crisis. Because that's really what you have is, you know, a vulnerable kid in this situation. And if it's, you know, in, in and around sexual identity, well then you have someone who's very vulnerable, who is preyed upon.

And that is a horrific crime. 

Johnna: And I don't want to discount the fact that based on the way that the actions that are described within that statement, which again, if we're going off of like historical ACT29, SBC statements like this, we are getting the prettiest version. of whatever the heck is going on.

And it sounds horrific. Based on the findings of these elders, [00:32:00] who again, are not a qualified third party, or as far as we know, all FBI agents, they describe abuse. So even the male I'm using the word victims unless we hear something different, because somebody that experiences those behaviors is a victim of abuse.

And they are now walking through court. living their life as someone who is a survivor of clergy sexual abuse. So even those adult male victims, they deserve to be talked about too, and they deserve our attention too. I think that oftentimes, I might be getting a little bit off course here, but I think I've just noticed that men get erased from the conversation when it comes to clergy sexual abuse because our most common public Examples of that are women who experience that with their pastor, but there are male victims, too.

And in this situation, it appears like there are multiple male victims. 

Christi Bragg: It's a huge underserved population. 

Johnna: And their families lives were blown up, too. So it's not just [00:33:00] a family who had a minor child that experienced it. These are adult males, potentially young adults, that are having to walk this. And it is just horrific.

And so, like, Yes, kudos to Austin Stone for apparently, supposedly, allegedly walking through this quickly, swiftly, doing some of the right things, but we have questions and I just want to encourage anyone that is a congregant there or in advocacy or survivor spaces to keep Something I have really appreciated, I don't know if Jay or Christy, if you guys are following what's going on in IHOP in Kansas City at all, but there has been a large sexual abuse disclosure.

There's multiple victims that's happening there. And something I have really appreciated about the community as that has been breaking is That group of people is largely unaware of the [00:34:00] survivor community and abuse community when it comes to evangelicalism, like they have been set apart and didn't understand the dynamics of it at all.

And all of a sudden there's thousands of people just splashed into, Oh my gosh, this is a thing. Pastors can do this. There are predatory pastors out there. And I have watched that community hold their leadership's feet to the fire to the point that that organization. I'm pretty sure they're going to shut down.

Like, I don't know how they come back from this. And what I want to see is us that are coming out of or still in this more reformed side of evangelicalism in America. I want to see us start responding with that. vigor and fervor for protection of vulnerable people, for accountability from our leaders.

Like, don't just take one flowery statement. If the IHOP community had just taken that first flowery statement, then that predator would still be in a leadership position within that organization. But because the community, the voice of the [00:35:00] people, Muse has a song called Will of the People, and it's like my anthem this year for for like grassroots collective fighting for goodness and accountability in churches.

If we could use our voices and bind together and demand more of our churches, demand victim care, true victim care, true accountability, then we can make a difference. We can actually create safe spaces. Be vessels that are actively a part of that process of preventing this from happening to further people.

Before we let you go, Christy, I just want to hear if you have a couple questions or pointers for people that are in the Austin Stone community right now for ways that they can advocate for or advocate for the survivors from within their community or safety for their 

Christi Bragg: community. No, absolutely. Um, well, I love what they're doing up at IHOP.

Um, Casey, um, that's huge. I will say most people don't know that this community [00:36:00] exists until you find it. And sadly, by the time you find it, it's because something, you know, tragic has already happened. I know that that was my case, our situation. In regards to Austin Stone and that community, I think within that community, requesting a meeting and saying, Hey, we, we give here.

Can we not set aside money in order to meet the mental health needs that everyone who comes forward is going to need? You had mentioned, you know, Sometimes it's easier to lose sight of the adults. It is a complete conflict because they're just as vulnerable. Statistically, it's like one in six. I think it's closer to one in five males, or one in three females.

By the time they're 18, I've heard one in four. So the reality is, right, if I have five kids, we're one in five. I mean, I have four daughters and a son, so we're, we're, we're already meeting the criteria of one and four. And so those statistics are never lost on me. And then you have a population [00:37:00] of people who are more vulnerable to predatory people and like this.

worship guy, you have someone who's wreaking havoc, um, in the lives of others, and it's just heartbreaking. You can definitely, as a, I don't know if they have a covenant membership there, but you can definitely, right, you're given there, so you can definitely, um, hold accountable. I mean, we see that in the scriptures, churches being held accountable for how, um, money is spent.

I mean, are they spending more on their coffee bar each month than they are on, you know, servicing these victims? you know, for their staff to have coffee. We'll look into that. 

Johnna: Statistically, how much would a survivor fund need if, say, there's only, I think in this situation, there's three or four survivors.

How much does each survivor need for mental health? 

Christi Bragg: So I'll go with one instead of doing like times four in my head. Um, so on average, I believe that this was from 2001. The average. survivor of sexual [00:38:00] violence is going to spend about 122, 000 or 123, 000 over the course of their lifetime. So that's seeking mental health, that's maybe doing EMDR, that's maybe seeking other services, you know, depending on the degree and how they're able to process and regulate and hold it.

You know, did they end up in an inpatient? Did they go into an outpatient? You know, were they in residential? Did they turn to a substance in order to cope with what occurred? Which is why it's so concerning when you see the use of illegal substances, is because you're introducing in a substance that we know if, I mean, if we're just thinking kids, we know their cognitive function isn't fully developed until 25 or 26, their frontal lobe.

And so introducing a substance in those vulnerable stages of adolescence. You're kind of helping someone develop, you know, addiction and, you know, that disease trigger can, can switch. And so over time, that kid may [00:39:00] turn to a substance to be able to cope and numb as opposed to having healthy coping skills to be able to deal with what's happened to them.

So what would that 

Johnna: look like? Let's say we live in a fantasy land where a church has disclosures like the ones that Austin Stone is saying happened. They respond. What is, in your opinion, the fantasy land response to that scenario? 

Christi Bragg: Fantasyland. I mean, I live in that world all the time in the world of, uh, sexual violence.

So, Fantasyland would be that the church would apologize to them. And instead of saying, this guy circumvented our policies, because it's not taking responsibility. Which 

Johnna: is word for word what they said in 

Christi Bragg: the statement. Word for word in the, yeah. Word for word in the Austin Stone. He didn't circumvent, you know, your policies.

Where you can't say, I am so sorry we failed to protect you. So sorry we failed to protect your child, if it involves a child. I'm so sorry that we failed to protect you. What do you need? And half the time, they may not [00:40:00] know what they need initially, because remember, they are in a trauma response to what is occurring.

And so it's very easy to just shut down and go through the motions. And that's why I said it was so pivotal for them to actually reach out to professionals, not in layperson church land, but professionals who work in this space all the time in order to get even advice on what they could offer. I mean, I joked for the longest time, you don't get a lasagna brought to you for sexual assault.

Like no one's bringing you lasagna. You know, you'll get it if you're having a baby, but you start navigating criminal trials and civil suits and all of those different things. No one's bringing you a lasagna. That's just not, it's just not how we think. Not only are 

Johnna: they not bringing you a lasagna, they're actively isolating you and shunning 

Christi Bragg: you.

Yes. Um, so however, so with Austin Stone, they could open up, you know, contact their insurance. They could open up the policy [00:41:00] so that those who've experienced harm. Then they could then file anything and everything that's related to their care in, in relation to the victimization that occurred. Right? So my hypothetical, you know, person who's now addicted to a substance in order to deal with, because of how that was introduced in order to prey upon that person, you know, offering.

the ability for them to file on the insurance to be able to have their treatment taken care of. And I think that's the thing to, to distinguish. When you bring litigation against a church, against most churches, you're not suing the church. It's not tithe money. You are litigating against their insurance.

They have an insurance policy in place that says, Hey, we're going to, because of policy and procedure, we're going to cover these things. And they have the ability to go past that no fault policy. Sometimes the no fault [00:42:00] policy is like 10, 000. Sometimes it's 15, 000. And a no fault policy is basically saying, we'll settle this for 000, but we don't take any responsibility.

And they are doing more damage to the body of Christ by not taking responsibility Then they are standing behind some kind of no fault policy. You know what I mean? Because of what that does to that individual, where you're literally saying to that person, we've told you this whole time that you've been in church, that you are worthy and valued.

But guess what? I mean, it's only up to 15, 000 because we have a 15, 000 cap. Sorry. I mean, that is unbiblical. And I don't throw that term around. I think you know me by now. I do not throw that around. But that is 

Johnna: unbiblical. Yeah, it goes all the way back to what you were saying. They don't Practice what they preach.

It's extremely hard for us on this call to read the Austin Stone statement and not see religious language blanketed over a complete lack of accountability on the church organization's part, and [00:43:00] it's a shifting all onto Aaron Ivey. The truth is, is there's a mix of everything. Like, the church itself is also a secondary victim to this behavior.

Like, they didn't, I hope that churches aren't actively trying to hire predators. I, I would assume they're not. There's a reason that. Men and women that are predators get away with what they get away with for so long. They're good at that. They're good at hiding that. Yes, what you experienced as an organization is also harm and wrong.

But with that, you are held to a higher standard and you're claiming the name of God. And your first responsibility is to the flock that you've been entrusted. Austin Stone, I dare you to open that policy, to model a new way, to be the start of a new response for churches, especially big churches within the SBC, ACT29.

Like we are continually seeing [00:44:00] survivors of sexual violence being completely just mowed over by those organizations. Let's model a new way. We will cheer for you Yeah. As you do it. And please for the love, bring in a qualified third party to investigate the scope of this because mm-Hmm. , before we started this call, we were all conjecturing about how concerning it is that gap of time, 2011 to 2024.

That's a lot of years. And it seems that there was a lot of like brazen behavior and so. I want to be sure that you guys are doing everything you can not to protect yourselves from liability, but to actually find out the scope and the level of abuse that was occurring and the number of actual victims that were within your organization or surrounding your organization based on this alleged abuser.

Well, thank you, Christy. Thank 

Christi Bragg: you for having me. 

Johnna: Thank you for [00:45:00] your voice and your advocacy and all of the work that you do, and I'm excited to anchor arms with you in the future as we continue to move forward in this 

Christi Bragg: work.