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Johnna Harris: Before we begin, we want to make the listener aware that this episode contains adult content related to abuse, sexual assault, and or suicide. Listener discretion is advised.[00:01:00]
Jay Coile: All right, welcome back everybody to the Bodies Behind the Bust episode. This is a special episode or a different type of episode because we're going to try to cover Some things that are going on within the SBC right now. There seems to be a lot that's happening and we're just going to try to break down a couple different topics, uh, real quickly to go over a few things that we've read and caught up on just because things are changing and happening so fast.
It's just important to just. Keep things top of mind and to start asking some, I think, some serious questions about these different topics floating on. So we're going to kick things off. There's a, there is a court case that we want to talk about that's happening in Tennessee. It was filed in February, but before we get there, Jonna, I knew you wanted to talk through a recent stage incident that happened with our president of the, well not our president, he's definitely not mine, the president.
[00:02:00] Not my president.
Johnna Harris: He's not our president.
Jay Coile: Uh, the guy, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention had a meeting recently. So why don't you share a little bit about that?
Johnna Harris: Okay. So to set the stage for that situation, I think we need to update everybody. We had an episode, just a couple. of releases ago that was titled, What in the SBC?
So in that episode, you'll hear us talk about this amicus brief that the entities of the Southern Baptist Convention filed against a survivor's plea for lengthening the statute of limitations on third party reporters. Well, unfortunately, that means that the SBC got the outcome that it wanted. It's really sad, really disgusting.
Again, if you want to learn more about what that case was, go back and listen to that episode. Thank you for listening. We deep dive there, and there's lots of links on those show notes. And near the same time that we learned of that ruling, another lawsuit breaks that we're going to get into in a minute here.
[00:03:00] Jay is going to lead us through that. And during this whole wild season, Barber goes up in the executive committee meeting. He is the president of the Southern Baptist Convention and jokes about the work that the Abuse Implementation Task Force has been doing. It was really, really gross. He said he apologizes, that it was bad taste.
But really, it just slap in the face, after slap in the face, by everybody at the top of this entity. And that is during all of this uproar from so many people, so many pastors. What are we doing? We're actively harming survivors. And that's where the leadership is at. They're joking about it.
Jay Coile: That should show you what the executive committee thinks about abuse reform.
Yeah, I mean, I would hope that the executive committee, this would be the highest priority in every meeting, in every discussion, and it would be treated with the serious nature [00:04:00] that it deserves. But for, and I haven't watched this video, but John and I talked about it briefly, but for us, for, for there to be a.
Laissez-faire kind of attitude or any type of humor involved in it is despicable and disgusting. And wasn't this the guy that people were encouraging messengers to vote for because he was? I guess, supposedly going to take this seriously.
Johnna Harris: Yeah. So if you guys remember, if you've been listening for a long time, we actually had an episode where we brought in friends, people I still respect and love that are fighting for reform.
One of whom is a pastor who's a good friend who's fighting for reform on the inside. And one of our action items was to encourage people to vote for Bart Barber because he was the best chance at reform. And if this is our best chance at reform, I am sorry, but like, burn it down. It's so bad. And there's like every single chance that it seems there's [00:05:00] an opportunity for integrity or character.
It is the absolute worst. Like, it's, there's no getting better.
Jay Coile: It's just the nature of how you approach this. Again, it's, it's, to me, it comes across as like, this is not serious. Like, this is not something that we, you know, are treating in a serious nature. And now you have like documentation. You have the articles that have, that came out in 2019 that are referenced in this new lawsuit that was filed in February.
And you have the Guideposts report that came out in 2022. And again, more. documentation, proof that this systemic abuse has been documented at least for decades in the church and there has been no response or at best the response they've given has been one to deny it and try to basically make it not come to light.
And yet now we have You know, jokes about it. Like, uh, yeah, it's just, this is funny.
Johnna Harris: It's really sad. And what a legacy for the Southern [00:06:00] Baptist Convention. Just add it on to the list. Add it on. We got, you know, started from wanting to continue shadow slavery and fighting against child sexual abuse victims and their statute of limitations in Kentucky today.
Come on, this case. And I mean, the organization,
Jay Coile: the argument again, you know, I understand the autonomy of the churches and I've read enough lawsuits, lawsuits now to know that that's like a big thing. Like, oh, the churches are autonomous, et cetera. And while I, I, I acknowledge that that's also a smoke screen to not deal with things.
And so, If you are at a church and you do take this seriously, and it is connected to the SBC, you have proof that your leadership does not give a damn. And now you have to ask yourself, what does that mean for my church and for me as a believer in Jesus? if I continue to support this entity with my dollars and my time and my [00:07:00] resources.
And that's, I think, the biggest thing that I take away from all of these things is that this is a critical point for those churches out there, and I've heard this argument time and time again, it's not every church. Okay, prove it. Prove it. Prove it. And if you're a pastor and that makes you uncomfortable, I don't care, because there is documented abuse that is going on within your denomination and cover up of this abuse.
People's lives destroyed. And you're doing, and you're funding it, and you're funding it, and you're doing nothing. And if the message is, oh, it's more about the message, getting that out, that is a bunch of BS, because this is your message. This is your narrative right now. This is it. There is no Jesus. It is sex abuse scandal and
Johnna Harris: cover up.
And racism. I think that it's important to say, [00:08:00] to always bring that into the conversation when we're talking about the sex abuse scandal, because that original sin of the Southern Baptist Convention that Joe Ash said, you know, this idea that in Western evangelicalism that we care more about souls than bodies.
I think that same gross theology that allowed for slavery is still deep in the roots and that the fruit of that. is the sex abuse crisis that we're seeing. Like, they are intrinsically tied together. It's this idea in the Southern Baptist Convention that bodies, that human bodies are not worth protecting and are not worth valuing or caring about.
All we care about is that mission. I guess that even causes further question for you if you're still in that space. What is that mission? What's the mission? And with that, there's a new lawsuit.
Jay Coile: There is a new lawsuit. It's interesting. Yeah, so it was filed in February in [00:09:00] Tennessee. So essentially there's six plaintiffs, and then they've named the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention and four churches in the lawsuit.
But I do think this lawsuit is interesting for a number of reasons. One is they do a good job in the lawsuit. Kind of tying in things that we already know that have come out from the articles that were published in the Houston Chronicle, and then also ultimately the Guideposts report that came out a few years ago.
And then they also named specific individuals in this lawsuit, the plaintiffs, and talked through about what this abuse has done to them. And it's written out in the lawsuit. And I think like, to me reading that, And them being brave enough to share their stories shows you the cost mentally, emotionally, and spiritually that these victims have endured, and the arrogance of the men to just not care.
And the last part about it is there's Count Henrico, yeah, [00:10:00] which is the Racketeers Influence and Corrupt Organization Act. But what's interesting about that as you read through it, is it talks a lot about how this is something that you could look as a corrupt organization, right? It's naming things specifically that they're doing that aligns with what we would define as a corrupt organization.
And I think that is spot on. Again, that's my opinion, but I think it's spot on. And it's things, it's giving us language that we can use and build out on. to how we potentially could view how the SBC executive committee has handled and covered up the allegations of abuse. So, you know, I went through it and there's just some things that stood out for me that I'd love to kind of talk about if you want to, Jonna.
So at the first lawsuit, they give kind of like a factual background and they do a great job talking through basically like how pastors are viewed within churches. They say these are religious figures in the church [00:11:00] and even lay leaders who are bestowed with an air of infallibility or cloaked. with authority, which creates opportunity and pathways for those individuals to misuse their positions and trust and take advantage of the vulnerable.
And that's directly from the lawsuit. So, I'm just reading from the lawsuit. They set kind of a good stage, I think, and used language about how these men are perceived in the public and then what their position really means in the church and in a spiritual setting and how that that power, when it's misused, allows for opportunities for abuse to happen.
And I just think it's really good. So that first general background gives us an overview about the church and then essentially like how this could happen, you know, and then they talk through about directly from the Houston Chronicle that, you know, they point out some things that You know, many of the victims were adolescents, uh, that were named in the Chronicle.
They go through and talk about being molested, or seeing explicit photos or text, [00:12:00] exposed to pornography, photographed nude, raped by youth pastors. I mean, super uncomfortable stuff. One even pointed out one of the victims was as young as three. This was from the Houston Chronicle article that came out. I read all that not to be like, you know, to, to be vulgar.
I read it because we, they're, they're words we need to absorb. You know, we throw words around like sin a lot when we come to this type of stuff and we're, oh, they sinned or, you know, we need to show them grace. If you rape a three year old. that's criminal and evil, and you deserve judgment of the legal system for that.
And we need that appropriate language here when we're talking about these individuals, the perpetrators, and we also need to lay that language at the feet of the organizations and the churches, and not cover it up with sin language, right? Yes, those things are sin, but to be honest, They're, they're criminal.
They're [00:13:00] illegal. And, and then we can add that sin language to it, because I think we get lost in that a lot. And we don't, we don't capture the full nature of how serious these things are. One of the things that names here that I find too, and I re I remember reading this, in the Houston Chronicle article, and I believe it's referenced somewhere in the Guidepost Report as well, but it talks about two pastors in general.
Again, the pastors are not named in the lawsuits, but this one pastor who used to be a president of the SBC, Steve Gaines, he's named in the lawsuit here. The church itself, and Steve is not named as a perpetrator in the lawsuit, but this is just kind of setting the stage. But it talks about how Steve waited six months to essentially disclose one of his pastors who confessed to molestation at his church, which is Bellevue Baptist Church.
I looked it up. He's still the pastor there. Steve Gaines is, not the, not the gentleman who confessed to molestation. And it goes on later to say, Steve has deep empathy for this [00:14:00] guy or something stupid and I'm probably not using the right word there. I can find it specifically, but it alludes to the fact of like having grace for this guy.
Right. Which is insane again, because molestation is harming someone violently with an act of sexual act that is. unwanted, whoever it was, the victim did not want that, did not ask for that, and this pastor used his power and persuasion to do it. That is an illegal activity that deserved criminal action and accountability.
And it references Steve because he was an SBC executive president or president of the SBC committee at one point as well too.
Johnna Harris: That's why using the right words matters because Using sin language in situations like this is how predators are covered for. It's through sin language. It's through like, you know, there was sin that occurred.
He sinned against this person, but we're going to [00:15:00] give grace. He's asked for forgiveness. We sent him to rehab, whatever it is, and it hides the severity. of what we're dealing with. It causes us not to reckon with it, and it puts people in danger, especially people that prey on children. All of the science, all of the psychology says that it's not something that just goes away.
Like, someone who does that to kids will always have that proclivity. And so, this idea that we have sin language covering over these crimes and then we're forgiving these perpetrators as congregations and allowing them to continue with their good name. We're actually putting people in danger by doing that.
Jay Coile: Yeah, and it, and going into that, I found it. So it said Steve Gaines admitted as a senior pastor at Bellevue Baptist that he had delayed reporting a staff minister's prior sexual abuse of a child. So it was a child because of [00:16:00] heartfelt concern and compassion for the minister. So I'll use a strong word again and say that that's complete bullshit and it's evil and covering up that activity, which is a criminal activity is, is not right in any way.
If this was in any other setting, we would all. be beside ourselves with anger, but yet because of the spiritual nature and the message and the mission of the church, we feel like our first response needs to be, Hey, we've got to have grace here. We don't need to cover this with grace. We need accountability.
We need action. We need to be helping provide for the victims to find healing. We need to be for the victims. We're not for these individuals who are covering this stuff up and perpetrating this abuse.
Johnna Harris: And you can't even read this in a vacuum. We have to read it with understanding where leadership is right now, making [00:17:00] jokes from stage when people are trying to put policy in place to protect others.
And also the Southern Baptist Convention is full of far right political party members. And one of the major, major pushes within that space right now is protecting children and this idea that we're keeping kids from child trafficking and we're going to protect them. And y'all. It's in your own house.
You're not even protecting the kids in your own house from predators. It's just so frustrating to see this narrative being pushed mainly by members and leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention, yet they're not willing to actually reckon with it in house. It's so gross. Yeah.
Jay Coile: And another example, and I'm reading these examples because I think bite sized chunks are easier to grasp onto.
It's how our brains work today. Like that Guideposts report is super long. And not everybody read it. I encourage you to read it. In this lawsuit, it's 20 pages. Not everybody's going to read it, [00:18:00] but there's some. Big stuff in here. So another example they gave with former SBC president Jack Graham, for you, those of you who don't know who Jack Graham is, I don't know if he's the senior pastor at Preston with Baptist anymore, which is, which is beyond a megachurch in Dallas.
It's, I mean, if you've ever seen it, it's like its own. It's huge. It looks like a college campus.
Johnna Harris: Is it like the Vatican? Yeah, I mean, it's massive.
Jay Coile: But anyway, so in 89, he allegedly allowed an accused abuser of young boys to be dismissed quietly from his church. And then this gentleman actually went on to abuse other boys in Mississippi in 2011.
People can say all they want about these leaders, but the reality is, is that if you're excusing away, if you know this behavior is happening and you excuse it away, it's evil. It's, it's morally horrible. I mean, I don't even know the, the word to put there, and this has to be held at the [00:19:00] feet of these men.
We cannot look the other way and say, but look at all the people they've baptized. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. You have people, and in this lawsuit, the plaintiffs name out what they've suffered through as the result of their abuse. real things. It goes on to allude to some of the things that essentially the executive committee was aware of pastors that were abusing people or had abused people or people within the church.
They had a list. They didn't do a damn thing with the list. They kind of kept it wherever they wanted to. Their big concern was always about if it went public, like what was their liability? I mean, there's emails back and that they document talking about the fact that they are aware that this is happening and yet they're not doing anything about it as a whole, like the SBC Executive Committee as a whole.
So, um, and one, and one of the comments, it was Auggie Boto. He was the, uh, okay, he was the Executive [00:20:00] Committee General Counsel for a really long time. He actually at one point alluded to the, like all of these allegations of abuse to be the work of the devil. Like, so all these allegations were really the work of the devil, but yet he's aware of them and he's aware of what's going on and he's not doing anything.
Uh, so the hypocrisy, the arrogance, the privilege, the sheer audacity of these men. To, to not only dismiss this, but to continue whatever empire they're building to go forward like nothing's happening is, is insane. And if this was anywhere else, we would all be beside ourselves in anger. So like, The reason I have so much passion in this is because I don't personally feel like that if you're in a church and you're saying, my church is, you know, we're doing good things, but you're still part of this entity.
I don't think there's an, I [00:21:00] don't, I think you're out of excuses. You're out of excuses. And, and your work now is as a church, what are we going to be to be for the victims and exposing the corrupt nature of my own. denomination because this isn't acceptable. It's not about the mission anymore. This is what you're known for and this is what you're going to continue to be known for.
We don't even know how deep this goes and how many more lawsuits like this are going to come out.
Johnna Harris: It's so frustrating because Yes, these are new lawsuits. Yes, we have more and more information, more people are whistleblowing, more survivors are coming forward, yet, what do we have to show for it? We have a bunch of heartbreaking stories, which I'm so grateful for the survivors who have had the courage to say this stuff out loud.
It costs a lot to do that in so many ways. But the SBC Entities do not [00:22:00] care. They do not care. There is no fixing this. There is no, like, even the database. Dead. Like, it's not, it's not happening. They had to start a new nonprofit to try to launch a database that's not getting any funding. Everybody has said they won't fund it.
So, I'm just, like, when, Jay and I were talking before we started recording, like, when? Is enough enough for people. When do you finally say at this point, I am complicit in wickedness. My money is funding the work of the devil. If we believe that there is a devil and that he is doing work. This is the devil.
This is sheer evil. Jay and I are not joking when we say we don't have the words to describe how evil this is. Well,
Jay Coile: and you can even argue like, well, the lawsuit's alleged. Okay, right, fine. Argue it. Then go read the Guideposts report and go read the Houston Chronicle [00:23:00] article and tell me that this, this stuff is alleged.
I mean, because there is stuff in there. That is, I don't even know how to describe, again, I don't have words for it about how far removed it is from anything Jesus related and how pure and pure evil it is. Some of the things that they talked about, like when, when abuse allegations would come up or victims would share their stories in this lawsuit, urging victims of abuse to get abortions in an effort to conceal the abuse.
Like that's like, again, that's cause you know, we're Pro life, but this is going to happen. Shunning of victims by the churches. Rejecting efforts by victims to make changes. Rejecting efforts of reform from a corporate level on the grounds that local churches have autonomy and more excuses. Urging victims to forgive abusers in an effort to conceal the abuse.
We've heard time and time again, another, uh, example here about Paige Patterson, essentially wanting to talk to a [00:24:00] victim or a person who brought an allegation of abuse to a victim. Yeah, emailed his intention to meet with another student who had reported an assault with no other officials present so he could break her down.
And, you know, Paige Patterson was another former president of the SBC. But again, you know, I'm, we still speak of him very highly in this, in those spaces because of the things he's done. And this is not part of his legacy. To me, this is his legacy. This is Jack Graham's legacy. This is Steve Gaines's legacy.
If you're uncomfortable with that language, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like, it is. These are, these are not mistakes. These are intentional decisions to misrepresent truth and to mislead people. And
Johnna Harris: in many places, they're crimes.
Jay Coile: Yeah, I mean, I don't know the legal system of covering this stuff up. I'm assuming some of this could be criminal.
Johnna Harris: If your state has pastors that [00:25:00] are mandatory reporters, if some of this stuff is True, then in those places that would be a crime. Rightfully so.
So
Jay Coile: I'm gonna read, uh, some names, and these are the people in the lawsuit. These are the plaintiffs. Uh, you have Candace Finch, Teresa Flanagan, Sally George, Christopher Juarez, Kelly Mims, and James Shannon.
These are the names that we should care about. These are the brave people that have shared their stories and have come forward to hold those accountable who've abused them. These are the names that we need to remember, that we need to be speaking of daily in our churches and when we talk about this.
These are the people that deserve Restitution, healing, and peace. And in the lawsuit, it goes through what they've suffered as a result of the horrendous abuse occurred in their bodies, their minds, all of it. [00:26:00] And. It needs to stay with us. It needs to be what we go to. I would love for the SBC president to stand up and read this to his congregation, or I don't, they don't call it a congregation, whatever they call it, the people in the meeting, because this is what matters.
Association. Whatever, whatever, whatever it is, instead of throwing monopoly money down, read this report. I don't know what else to say. I don't know what else to say, John, honestly, because it's to the point where I don't know why, why anything else needs to be said.
Johnna Harris: I think that's what is so disheartening for Jaina.
I, and I can't even imagine the level of disheartening it is for survivors who have been fighting for reform and for protections, because like, Jay and I ourselves are so tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and I can't fathom what that's like as a survivor within the Southern Baptist [00:27:00] Convention to still be paying the cost of Your time, your efforts, your voice just fighting for justice and being met with monopoly money.
Like, I just cannot fathom how horrific that must have felt for those incredible survivors. Something that I think is really fascinating, you mentioned earlier, is this RICO charge. The reason this RICO charge matters so much is because The Southern Baptist Convention has hid underneath this autonomy, where it's like, oh, well, our churches are all autonomous, so the organization as a whole can't be held responsible for what happened in that one denomination.
Well, this is Saying, hey, actually, you should be responsible because all of these people are interconnected. The organization is interconnected and working within these autonomous denominations to help cover abuse and to move predators around [00:28:00] spotlight style. And they do reference that.
Jay Coile: Moving, moving people, they referenced the, the, uh, you know, the moving of funds or paying, paying law firms, things like that to deal with it.
So, and communication back and forth, intra and interstate communication. So the RICO charge, I think is not only appropriate, is kind of a game changer, especially if they can win this lawsuit. And I mean, I don't know the ramifications for the SPC if this goes through. I hope it means there's more lawsuits and more justice for victims and survivors.
The other thing it talks about, it says the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention and the local churches had a duty to do the following and breach that duty. And it's, I don't know, probably like 10, 15 points, but it's like simple stuff, like provide a safe environment for plaintiffs where they could be free from abuse.
And I mean, I want, provide a safe environment for plaintiffs where they could be free from abuse. A church should [00:29:00] be, in my opinion, a church should be the safest place for all people, all people. And it's not, it's not. And we need to sit with that and we need to ask ourselves, what does that mean? If we follow Jesus and churches are not safe for all people, what have we built and what are we doing?
And I would encourage at least, you know, reading those points because I think they're really, they really add language and words around the gravity of this situation and how our churches have become places where predators can operate freely. And again, you know, we always talk about where there is abuse, other abuses are happening.
So if you have church where abuse culture is, is prevalent, there is the soil for other abuse to pop up there, all kinds. And we are seeing abuse. And all of our churches in a variety of ways, which is [00:30:00] across all denominations, which is super disheartening and concerning.
Johnna Harris: And I think, again, what makes the Southern Baptist Convention such a topic when we're talking about this stuff?
One, obviously, we have the Guidepost Report. We have this denomination that I always go back and quote what Keith said on that, um, reform episode that we put out last year or two years ago, whenever that was, uh, that there's more Southern Baptist churches than McDonald's in America. That's how large this denomination is.
We have people in our government creating laws that are Southern Baptists that have been in leadership roles within the Southern Baptist Convention. It has its talons in our country, and it is using the name of Jesus. to further an agenda, to harm people, to cover for predators. [00:31:00] It is anti Christ. And that's why we have to have this conversation.
We have to keep people updated on what's going on. It matters that you know, it matters that we stay on top of these stories because these These survivors deserve for us to hear their name. They deserve for us to have to wrestle with any ways that we are complicit in allowing this pattern of covering up and protecting predators to continue.
And we need to use our privilege and our voices to say no more. We need to pack up your money. If you're giving money to the Southern Baptist Convention at this point, you are funding anti Christ evil work.
Jay Coile: It's allowing the cover up of abuse to happen and to continue to be, I mean, I don't know, you know, again, we, these are, these are all allegations, previous allegations from previous years, but it is creating an environment [00:32:00] where not real reform is happening.
And we know, we already have documentation of what happens when we don't take things seriously within the SBC. And so you're funding that. Also, you're funding men. who are not taking accountability for anything, and they are using that privilege for themselves. So 47, 000 churches, Jonna. There's 47, 000 Baptist churches within the Southern Baptist Convention.
Johnna Harris: I guess to wrap it up, I think something that has just been boiling my blood about this situation beyond the many somethings, one of the things that is boiling my blood is Bart Barber recently tweeted something like, there's no way that we're going to cut sermons short or cut worship short to give more time to topics during the meeting.
Jay Coile: They said that?
Johnna Harris: So they, yes. Oh gosh. And I just want to I [00:33:00] want to read what the Bible says about that. In Amos 5, 23 through 24, it says, Away with your noisy hymns of praise. I will not listen to the music of your harps. Instead, I want to see a mighty flood of justice, an endless river of righteous living.
That worship in a space that is unwilling to be repentant, to truly work towards repair, to truly work towards honoring God, you are spitting in the face of God when you sing those songs and when you say that sermon from that pulpit because you don't believe them. You don't believe them. You don't believe in a God who cares for the oppressed, for the marginalized, for those who have been harmed by people that are claiming his name.
They don't care and it's a spit in the face. It's a mockery of God.
Jay Coile: Hmm. Well, you, you can even say, it goes down to what Jesus said about the little kids. Like, bring all the little [00:34:00] children to him, and I'm not quoting that correctly. And then he goes forward, like, if anybody leaves these kids astray and he gives a judgment to it, and I can't think of something.
Uh, I mean, abuse is profoundly hurting both children and adults and doing immense harm to their souls. And so we have men that are doing this, that, that have been named. And then we have other men that say, we're just gonna cover it up. And so, again, all of that is destruction of souls and bodies and leading people astray from Jesus.
So, I mean, those are two Biblical warnings that those that believe the Bible. You have two, two things that are saying what you're doing right now is the direct opposite of what is in the Bible. from the Old Testament and New Testament. And we have to wrestle with that.[00:35:00]
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