BBTB - Emily Maynard 2
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Johnna Harris: [00:00:00] This episode was made possible by our incredible patrons who faithfully support the work of amplifying the voices of spiritual abuse survivors. We are an extremely small team comprised of just two families with a passion for stories and image bearers. We committed early monetizing any of the stories and rely solely on the donations of our Patreon community to operate.

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Jay Coile: [00:01:00] Welcome back everyone. We are here. Thrilled to have Emily Maynard here again for part two. Uh, Emily was with us last time. A quick refresher. If you have not listened to part one, which you should, but if you haven't listened, Emily is a licensed marriage and family therapist here in California. California.

She is also EMDR certified. Uh, she works a lot with religious trauma. Uh, you can check her website out, which we will have linked in the bio. And today we're going to dive into a couple different topics. The first one being warning signs. that may be indicating you're in a dysfunctional church organization or ministry.

And Emily is also going to reference not only Jonna's story, but some other episodes that she's listened to, to kind of highlight some of the things she's talking about. So welcome back, Emily. 

Emily Maynard: Thanks for having me back. It's great to see you all again. 

Jay Coile: Well, wonderful. Well, let's dive right in because this is a totally light subject.

So talk to us a [00:02:00] little bit about these warning signs. What do you mean by them? And if you could give us some examples, that'd be super helpful. 

Emily Maynard: Yeah, so when I think of my work, a lot of what I do, I, I sort of see as noticing patterns and then asking questions. If I could distill my sort of training and clinical work down, it's those two things.

And so one of the things that I like doing is when I hear people's stories is I'm always trying to recognize what are the patterns. And where are the sort of places that need to be picked apart or broken open or explored a little bit more? And then how can I use questions to sort of do that work to shape people's experiences and healing processes through those two things?

So I love your podcast and the work that you're doing to bring light to these stories. to really allow people to have a voice when for so much of their experience or so much of the harm that was done to them was about taking away their voice or their ability to be heard. So just in listening to those stories and then thinking about my own experience, a lot of conversations I've had with [00:03:00] people for more than a decade now in this work, what are some of the warning signs that your church or Christian university or ministry or any other Caring service type of work organization might be heading towards dysfunction or abuse or maybe the next phase in those processes.

The first one that comes up is confusion. Like, I'm thinking of, Jonna, your story in particular, and then the latest episode I was just listening to, how confusing it is. to be in a dysfunctional environment where people are telling you one thing and then their actions are not lining up with their words or their stated intentions.

Maybe they're gaslighting. Maybe they're saying, I never said that, or I wouldn't do that in response to that. some feedback or some accountability processes that are showing up. And then the second thing that I think about confusion is what it's like to have someone in authority trying to define your reality, telling you what you [00:04:00] experienced.

That didn't happen. Or we don't have that problem in our organization. Or well, he's never been like that to me. 

Johnna Harris: Absolutely. I think we hear that pretty often. If you're a long time listener of the podcast, you've probably heard that in multiple places pop up. But it is very confusing. I think especially for those of us who were raised with these strict boundaries on what it looks like to be qualified for leadership in churches or religious organizations, evangelical organizations, And then to see that character not line up with what we're told you have to have to be in that position, it makes you question so many things.

I mean, the amount of times I thought, am I crazy or is something wrong with me? Like, the dots are not connecting and it has to be me. Like, you just go inward, which I'm guessing is, it's designed to do that to you. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think it's a really subtle warning sign [00:05:00] too. So that's a really helpful thing to be hearing out loud and have words put to it.

Because I don't think oftentimes when we feel confused that we, we feel that as a warning sign. We just feel it as like, what is going on? You know, it's not something where we're thinking through this confusion could actually be pointing towards something worse. So, I really appreciate you. Making that little bullet point for us.

Emily Maynard: Yeah, I think abusive people often take advantage of the best in us, our empathy, our trust, our willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt. And those things are wonderful qualities that I wouldn't want anyone to give up or stop pursuing. But they can be used to make you more vulnerable if somebody has ill intent or is just in a really bad mood.

really dysfunctional place in their own life. 

Jay Coile: Yeah. There was a, there's a recent story where there was a church here, which I think we referenced last time here in California. It's called Monrovia Fellowship. And they did this big town hall recently. [00:06:00] And, uh, there was allegations against the pastor and the pastor led the town hall.

And I haven't watched all of it, but I think about that with like, I did. Okay. 

Johnna Harris: I did. 

Jay Coile: But I think about it doesn't get better confusion. Like, you know, There was allegations against the pastor and other things, and then like, here's the pastor who, the allegations were against like, controlling the narrative from the town hall.

And I thought like, one, like, how horrible of a witness is that, as a, just a Christian body? But two, like, how confusing it has to be. Now that happened to us as well, in our story, in our church. But how confusing does it have to be for the people there? When you talk about confusion, I, that first thing I thought of, is like, just, the people in the, that are listening to this have to be just like, what is going on?

Emily Maynard: Yeah. Confusion is a, it's a vulnerable state of mind in a way. And when we experience confusion, our first thing that we do, if we're like smart, empathetic, right. People is like, well, let's figure out [00:07:00] what's really going on. Well, what does this person really mean? Or like, why did they say that? Or why did they do that?

Or, you know, what's happening with them? In order to try to figure out and solve our own confusion, rather than seeing confusion as a sign that something shady is going on, and our work is to make ourselves safe and to maybe get out, rather than try to figure out even like what everyone's motives are or the reasons why they're all doing the things that they're doing.

And then the second warning sign that I think of is body responses. So our bodies are these amazing beings and systems that are that we have to physically respond to challenges and harm and threats. We have our nervous system, our sympathetic nervous system, and our parasympathetic nervous system. And that means we have all of these signals that our bodies are going to send when something is off.

Usually people [00:08:00] talk about sort of their body responding. They're getting stomach aches and they don't understand why. They're dreading going to work and they don't really understand why. Cause cognitively their work aligns with their values, with their beliefs, with their mission and their hope for the world.

But your body is not going to let you be in a situation that's harmful for you. You can keep ignoring it and denying it, but it's going to keep sending you escalating signals until at some point you have to respond. And our bodies respond to different things, right? We, we, Based on our own biology and our own experiences, maybe what we got in childhood, we're going to have a different set of which things are not okay to our bodies.

So some of the things that come up for me is in abusive situations in the stories that have come up is boundary crossings, be they physical. Right? If someone is touching you inappropriately, and everybody in your community is brushing it off as like, Oh, yeah, that's so and so, they're just a hugger, or like, Oh, yeah, that's, you know, old so and so, he's really, you [00:09:00] know, touchy, he's really, loves physical touch, right?

But if your body is, is not responding to that touch as welcome. It's going to respond. You're going to feel aversion and you should trust that response that something about this person's behavior is not okay with you. Another big boundary crossing that I see in people's stories or the work that I do is financial.

So there's so many people that are promised raises like, Oh yeah, next year in our budget, we're going to get more for your team, or we're going to be able to hire you assistant. or we're going to be able to give you a raise or make sure that we're contributing more to your health insurance. But those things never happen.

There's always an excuse why somebody can't pay you in a way that honors your needs and your family's financial needs. And when we see that as A boundary crossing rather than something we need to excuse because like we're all on the same mission, right, or we all have the same good intentions here, then we get to listen to what our body's responding and the stress that it puts on us to [00:10:00] live in a place or to work in a place where our financial needs aren't being met or honored.

Jay Coile: Could that also apply to churches that pressure uh, congregants for tithing or require, you know, like you sign a leadership or membership covenant that includes how much you will tithe. Cause I've, Those have always bothered me. 

Emily Maynard: Yeah, I think covenants bother me so much in general. Like, I don't know how you could sign any sort of like formal legal contract or document.

Feels completely spiritually abusive to me, but yeah, I think of that too. Like, what is a system or what is a church or An organization requiring a view, and then how does your body respond to it? Just on a basic level, that's a question that therapists love to ask and we get teased for is like, well, what's going on with your body right now?

But I think it's so true. And it's because we are so distracted and disoriented from what our bodies are trying to tell us about our experience of the world. 

Johnna Harris: Absolutely. [00:11:00] I'm thinking, I have two thoughts right now really quick. One is I'm thinking of Andrew and Ashley's story when they needed help financially and they were required to like show their entire budget and bank statements like down to the line items where they're going through and picking it apart.

Like, you bought this bag of chips. Did you really need it in order for them to like get benevolence? So gross. And I definitely think that is a form of financial abuse and, um, boundary crossing by a lot. But two, when you're talking about body responses, I was thinking when I was going through my story, if anybody remembers, it's way back.

It's a second episode. But I was seeing a therapist, a trauma therapist during that time because I had lost my father. So it just lined up that I had been getting it. trauma therapy for the loss of my dad, but we really just focused on the trauma crisis that I was in in the midst of what was happening.

And she would have [00:12:00] me do body scans, like, what's your body feeling right now? And almost exclusively, I would tell her my jaw and my throat hurt, like, if I would think about it. And I don't know if this is something that you've experienced as a therapist, but she said that she finds that really is really common with people who aren't allowed to speak in traumatic situations where you, you can't speak up and protect yourself.

You just have to sit quiet. So she said it makes a lot of sense that like the trauma in your body is manifesting in your chest and your throat and your jaw because you're literally, your body's physically clenching itself shut. instead of protecting you by speaking up. And I thought that was so fascinating.

I don't know if that's something that you've heard before or not, or if that resonates with you, but I thought I'd throw it out there. 

Emily Maynard: Yeah, it certainly feels true. Like, I don't know of any, you know, clinical or physiological research about it, but like as a metaphor, absolutely. That is so powerful. And it sounds like it really [00:13:00] meant something to you in that moment that she was able to help give a voice to your experience.

Johnna Harris: Absolutely. I was like, that makes sense because my body is telling me like, hey, if you speak up, it's going to be dangerous for you. But also it's taking like physical power to keep yourself quiet and in 

Emily Maynard: control in this scenario. Yeah. Another thing that I'm thinking about is another boundary crossing that I see is with time.

Obviously. In a salary job, in a ministry job, in any kind of organization you work for, it is normal that maybe there's a little bit of wiggle room. Like, hey, we might expect you to, you know, other duties as assigned on every job description. Or like, you might occasionally need to work longer hours when you're prepping for Advent or something like that.

But you should have a clear understanding if you're working for any organization for a paycheck, what is the time commitment. And then, what are the regular working hours? And if you're getting called in for meetings regularly outside of [00:14:00] those hours, if you're being sort of pressured or expected to show up in certain ways outside of that boundary of time, even as a volunteer, even if you're not getting paid, there should be a clear expectation of like, you know, if you're volunteering, what is the amount of time commitment, commitment.

Hey, we ask people volunteer in this area for a year, just because we spent so much time training and developing this sort of place, or which hours you're expected to work. Like, hey, we need somebody to come in and make coffee every Sunday morning, you know, from 6am to 8am. And we expect, you know, we, we try to have people do six month shifts.

Just so that you can get to know your team. Something like that is totally appropriate to ask for in a ministry, even as a volunteer. There should be clear expectations on your time, and there shouldn't be regular violations of that upfront expectation. And then the last thing that I thought of was boundaries around emotions, which emotions are allowed to be expressed.

It's making me think of what you're describing [00:15:00] with that church that's going through, you know, their, their leader is being charged spiritually with some abuses and with abuse of power. And I wonder if people in that community are allowed to fully express all their emotions, fear, dissatisfaction, confusion, or if they're only being allowed to express emotions like grace or kindness or faith, something like that.

Anytime your emotions are controlled and you're not allowed to feel certain things, even something like anger, right? If you're not allowed to feel anger, then you're being disconnected from a really powerful system of justice and intuition that you have built into your body. 

Jay Coile: For our church, Jono, you probably remember this more than I, but we were, we were told when there was an investigation, and I'm air quoting, by another church organization other than ACT29, they came in with a group of pastors and there was one pastor at the end when they [00:16:00] were talking about the results of their investigation, basically told us that our pastor at the time could be pastor for life.

Like he, that was it. Like, we were the problem, and I'm paraphrasing, like, the church, the congregants were the problem, and this guy was gonna be the pastor for as long as he wanted to be. And that, like, when you said that, like, I immediately thought of that, because, like, how in the hell do people in that room deal with all of their emotions from anger, from, from just being sad or disappointed, from confusion?

I mean, we were, we were told, Nope. That doesn't matter. And it's funny because it's like, so un Christ like, because when, when I read about Christ's interaction with, with people, like, there's all these different range of emotions that people feel that I can feel in reading, you know, reading the, the, the gospels that were going on.

Um, you know, even like, I always think about the lady who, uh, touched the cloak of his, uh, Uh, tucked, tucked his cloak and was healed [00:17:00] immediately from years of bleeding and like, and you know, he turned around and acknowledged her and I was like, that was filled with just emotions and such like, just such a connection.

That meeting we had at our church was counter to that. It was basically like a shut up meeting, shut up and take it. 

Johnna Harris: Well, and I think something for listeners, if you're in a scenario where emotions are not safe or allowed, something you may be experiencing in that would be shame for having an emotion. So like in our church situation that Jay is talking about, people crying and angry and confused and speaking up about it.

And every single time the person was shamed for it or told they were bitter, or I, there was biblical examples used. I don't remember that town hall. I've pretty much blocked out Jay, but I do remember someone calling us like Miriam or something like that to the most, I don't [00:18:00] even know what he meant, but it was like some weird, It's always a woman that we're being shamed with, some woman in the Bible.

We might not necessarily recognize like this motion's not allowed here, but a way for you to sort of judge that and parse that out in your own space is, do I feel shame if I feel X emotion? And if you feel shame, That is not healthy. That's not good. That's something to explore. 

Emily Maynard: Right? Guilt is a really powerful tool.

Guilt is the thing that will show up in your body if you have crossed your values or your ethics in your behavior. But when people say, I feel bad, right? I know that we're dealing with shame because they said, I feel bad. I feel like I am bad. And that is totally a different landscape that we're dealing with.

Guilt is this powerful tool that's like, hey, You messed up, here's how to fix it, right? Or guilt, guilt says you messed up, you need to fix it. And shame says, what a bad person. How dare you? [00:19:00] I can't believe you feel this way or think this way or have this, you know, bitterness in your heart, right? That's all shame.

And, and when we can identify that or start to identify that it's really helpful in figuring out what do we do next? 

Johnna Harris: Absolutely. And even. Going back to your first point, confusion, I think, can be, I don't know if that's on the emotion wheel or not, but it should be, I think. I think confusion in general is also met with shame.

And so, that's just another little thing to think through. If you expressing confusion is met with shame, if you asking questions or trying to seek clarity is met with shame, that's another indicator that something's not right. 

Emily Maynard: I have two more things that I don't think your body will let anybody get away with around you.

And the next one is the difference between secrecy and privacy. So many times in these stories, again, whether it's an abusive Relationship, or [00:20:00] marriage, or whether it's an abusive organization or dysfunctional person in charge of something. Dysfunctional people demand secrecy. They say, you can't tell your story.

Jonna, we want you to keep this. They might say privacy, but what they mean is secrecy, right? Like, you are not allowed to talk about. what happened to you, because it would have fucked poorly on the organization, or the leader, or because, you know, they don't want you to gossip. Whatever excuse they use, what they mean is you're not allowed to talk about what happened to you.

Privacy is a choice that you can make of, you know, I don't need to tell my story. to everyone anymore in order to be authentic, or, you know, this is something that happened to me that I'm going to work out with some people but not others, or maybe even something that you decide is really just between you and God.

It is private in a sense where you are choosing to not say something because it is good for you. When an organization demands secrecy, it's because you being honest or [00:21:00] truthful would reflect poorly on them. And they're going to try to control your story or what you say about them, or Well, here's an NDA to sign when you leave, right?

Like, you can leave, but in order to get your health insurance paid for the next month, we need to assure that you're not going to harm the ministry or you're not going to harm pastor so and so. And I get why people choose to sign those contracts, right? Because they need the thing that's offered to them.

They are being manipulated and abused again in order to get something that they need to live or take care of their family. But, but know that. Your body's going to react when you are told to keep a secret versus when you're choosing to keep something private. And then the last one is about vagueness versus specificity.

And again, John, I'm thinking of your story of like how much you wanted to just know what your job was. Like, hey, can I get clarity on my job description? Like, that is a normal thing that anyone should have the right to ask if they're working for an organization in any kind of capacity, right? Because then if you had it, you could say, great, [00:22:00] well, I'm not doing these things, and I'm not being allowed to do these things, and I want to do more of this.

Can we make my job description more accurate? You know, it'd be helpful for the next person who has this position, right? When somebody's manipulating you, they don't want you to have any clarity at all. They want to keep you in confusion, and they're going to make you keep guessing, or interpreting their words, or spending a lot of energy, like, trying to figure out what they want.

Johnna Harris: Absolutely. That is like, That was my downfall because I, if you remember in my story, I was trying to get clarity on my job description. And that is literally the conversation when he was like, your problem is you want to know this much and held his hands out, but you're really only ever going to know this much.

And I was like, why? But it was because I would never be an elder was his reasoning. And it was about like my, role and like, what, how I fit into the church and why decisions were being made that [00:23:00] directly affected my work. And yeah, they, he like really enjoyed the vague. And I think that's why, when I sent that email, To our elders, which this is episode two again, if you haven't listened to my story, it was our first story we told when I sent that email to the elders and outlined, like, my role has changed, this is what I'm sensing, I want to meet with you guys and hear what you actually want from me, because I don't want to be not being submissive, and I want to be working within the bounds of the elders.

Like, this is the language I'm using, and that was the, the first really horrific, like, verbally abusive phone call that I had with my boss. And so, that totally rings true for me, because I was, I mean, and it all feeds each other. Everything you're saying, because it all goes back to that confusion of the vagueness made me feel confused all the time.

Like, I constantly felt like I was doing something wrong [00:24:00] and constantly felt like I was failing. I mean, I vocalized that to him. I feel like I'm failing you. Do you feel like I'm failing you? No, I don't feel like you're failing me. You're doing everything great. And that's actually what led to him saying, I think part of why you feel that way is because you want to know this much, but you're really only going to know.

And then he had like his little centimeter. So ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. Which it 

Jay Coile: is because all you're asking for was what your job was as a worship leader for a church that was super small. 

Johnna Harris: Yeah. Well, also he had helped me. Like I had. We had written my job description and he had signed off on it within the, like, last 12 months before that.

So it was like, I'm doing what's in my job description, but you're continuously crossing boundaries and treating me poorly outside of my job description and expecting me to do things differently that you are not communicating. 

Jay Coile: And then blaming you. for it after, uh, just ask a question, like you [00:25:00] should know.

It was very odd. This can apply to like in corporate setting too. Like all of this is very applicable when you think about like your job or you work for your company, like who your manager is or you report to, like all of this can be applied to. I think if you're experiencing Experiencing this long enough, you can kind of just feel like, well, this is just how life is supposed to be, or I guess other people have it this way, and you know, I just better suck up and take it, but that's just a lie.

Like, it's not supposed to be this way at all. So, I want to talk now, Emily, I thought this second point was so critical, especially for our listeners and other people. We get emails about this very question. So if these stories are hitting home for some of our listeners, um, and you realize, okay, maybe I'm in a harmful situation, what do we do next?

Emily Maynard: Yeah, it can be so scary to not know. only be in these situations, but to admit to yourself that you're [00:26:00] in a situation or relationship, uh, a marriage or an organization or ministry where harm is happening and it's rampant and it's happening to you. The first thing that I think people should do is tell someone outside the system.

Jada, I'm going to use your story again because it stood out to me so much that your husband was able to be like, this is completely unprofessional behavior. If this is happening in any other. company, like this would not be okay. You had an outside voice right there to tell you that what you were experiencing was not okay.

By the time we come to those realizations, our intuition or our ability to listen to the Holy Spirit has often been so chipped away at or slowly undermined that we question ourselves. So telling somebody outside of the system in some way just what has happened to you, and all you're looking for is one person.

Who will say, Wow, that sounds really hard. And that's it. Like, that's [00:27:00] all you need is just someone to validate that what you're experiencing is true for you. And maybe that's a therapist. Maybe that's a colleague or a friend. Maybe your relationships have been so absorbed into this organization that you might need to look backwards in your life.

Like, maybe you've been pulled away or isolated from a the friends or family members who would tell you like, Hey, something seems off with so and so. How are you really doing working for them? Tell someone as soon as you can just what's happening to you. And you can even tell them up front like, I don't need advice.

I don't even know what I need yet, but I just need you to believe me. So I'm going to tell you something and then I just need you to respond. I believe you. And if you can tell someone that's what you need and you can get that, I promise you, you will start feeling a little bit more clarity. The confusion cloud is gonna start to break up the more that you can just describe what's happening to you.

It's also great if you can tell somebody who's maybe left that system. Like if you know somebody who's left that organization or [00:28:00] college and you can reach out to them and just say, Hey. Like, hey, I know you left, but I'm just telling you, I'm in a place where this is going on. Or if you can, um, you know, if you're in a, a family abuse situation and you can call a domestic violence hotline, talk to somebody else who's been through it, that's going to be really powerful to get that connection and that belief and to start restoring your sense of self, your sense of intuition and your autonomy in knowing what and how to respond to.

Johnna Harris: That's so helpful. I think that's something that was an unexpected bright spot in these stories going out is oftentimes storytellers, not every time, but oftentimes storytellers will have people reach out from that they never even knew that had experienced this person or this organization or this church the same way, and they can say, I heard my story in what you were telling, and I also experienced that.

And so that [00:29:00] corroboration is just so, it's actually healing. Like, it makes people sad that more than just them experienced it because nobody wants people to be experiencing the level of trauma and abuse that the storytellers are experiencing, but at the same time, It feels validating and it, again, I think brings even another layer of clarity, even if you were out of it and you're not in the system anymore and you've been processing or healing for years to hear someone else say, Hey, what you said I can back that up.

I've experienced that too. It's so healing. So I think that makes a lot of sense and those people can understand the intricacies of the relational dynamics in those spaces in a different way. I hope that for everyone. Everyone doesn't get that, but that's been a really bright spot as stories have come out.

Almost every story actually has had something like that. 

Emily Maynard: Yeah, there's a reason why one of the most powerful social justice oriented movements [00:30:00] of the last couple decades has been the Me Too movement and Tarana Burke, like, using that phrase to collect the power and the solidarity of women's experiences or the stories of abuses of power and to focus on the survivors and the community of survivors to empower and make change.

Like, there's a reason why the words Me Too are so powerful. That's one of the first steps of healing is recognizing you're not alone. Abuse. isolates us, but we know that love and healing is found in connection and in restoring safe, whole people together. 

Johnna Harris: So good. So helpful. So what would be the next thing to do if you found someone outside the system or someone who's left the system that can validate, hear you?

What would be the next thing that you would do? 

Emily Maynard: The next thing that I would have people do is to make an exit plan. And depending on your situation, you know, what kind [00:31:00] of institution you're in or what sort of relationship is harming you, your exit plan is going to be really different. So I can only speak to generalities about this because there are going to be times where you need help to leave immediately.

And you have to just find a way to get out now, to burn every bridge behind you, and to get yourself out of here. Safe, especially if there's abuse in your home or somewhere very close to where you are physically, or if you're around somebody who has the potential or the weapons to escalate, that is a dangerous situation and you probably need professional help and support.

But if you are just in a situation where maybe your organization is like a little bit shady, but you're not really sure what you want to do yet, and you have some runway and you can get clarity that like, yeah, I think I have a little bit of time and space. Like, I don't think I need to burn anything down now.

Then you can make an exit plan. Maybe you start looking for other jobs. Maybe you reach out to colleagues and see, you know, what [00:32:00] their experience was like leaving, something like that. Your situation is going to depend on how much runway you have, but make an exit plan. Start thinking about, okay, what would I want to do next?

Would I need a job that's not ministry focused at all for a while so that I can pay my bills and focus on healing? Or do I feel ready to just try to find a different organization that maybe is structured a little bit differently? You can't determine how other people are going to react to your exit plan.

It might be a challenge on your reputation, but you have the right to start making it for your situation and your needs. 

Jay Coile: Yeah, that's such a key point too, not to really worry about others reactions, um, because that can be something that holds us back, but it's critical for us to understand that that's their reaction.

That doesn't have to dictate my decision or who, where I'm going, because sometimes that will really cloud how we view ourselves. Is there any other tips you have there? Because you know, [00:33:00] like, leaving an organization. There is a spin machine that happens at a church when those people leave. I mean, any other suggestions there to really help people that are, that are going to be put through that spin cycle if they leave?

Emily Maynard: Yeah, I think this is why it's so important that you tell somebody else what you're experiencing first, because that person might be really helpful in keeping you grounded as you try to block out the spin or the stories that are, going to show up about you when you leave. Having some sort of anchor in the world is really powerful of saying like, yes, this is going on.

I feel a lot of grief about leaving. I feel a lot of loss of my hopes for this organization that I was a part of. But I also know that I have one person here who believes me, or I have somebody that I can talk to that's going to validate my experience. My hope is that eventually you have a lot of people who will validate your experience, who will acknowledge what happened to you, and who will just believe you.

But [00:34:00] starting with one person really makes a difference. In. walking out your exit plan and knowing that there might be some backlash there. I think there's another piece to that too. It's really important to recognize that loss is complicated and it can go on for a really long time and you might need to set some limits on how much of that you can take at a time.

So I know it's really hard to block people on social media. It's one way we stay connected to our communities and people around us. Even if we're not in proximity, but I would say try to set some limits while you go through the grief process. You can always reconnect with people. I promise you it is not harming you to mute somebody at least so that you don't see their content or they're still having a good time with this organization or like they seem fine without you or maybe they're like telling stories about you.

I promise you it's going to be better for your healing process and your grief process if you don't see that in your face. [00:35:00] every time you pick up your phone and log into Instagram. It's good. It is really hard to see that. And so try to protect yourself from seeing that. 

Johnna Harris: Yes. And I think that there's even another layer to this for some people that have experienced religious abuse is this need to prove, like, I'm not what they said I am.

So I have to stay here and stay, keep showing up. Even if you're not. showing up to a church service, you're showing up in people's lives, you're going to the barbecue, you're going to go to this person's birthday party, even though there's a bunch of people there that you don't feel safe with. And those are things that we all have to navigate learning how to give ourselves permission to say no, and to give ourselves the time to grieve and heal so that if we do decide to show up in those spaces, we're able to show up healed and not just extremely vulnerable.

And I think that is way [00:36:00] easier said than done. Like I am constantly worried about what other people are thinking. That's like my, the theme of a lot of my therapy sessions. So I get it. Like hearing that you're like, sure, that's much easier said than done, but it's a reality that I can relate that to talking to people that are about to tell their story on the podcast.

I have a really frank discussion and probably most of the time the first phone call like I cannot protect you from whatever is going to happen when this story goes out there. And so there is a part of it that you have to, a part of you has to grow a thicker skin. I hate to say that in order to say like, this is, this is my story and I'm going to share it and I'm not responsible for how you react.

And I can't take that onto myself, how you react when I tell my story. But that still hurts. Like it's still hard. So I can't imagine getting through that without a therapist, [00:37:00] honestly. 

Jay Coile: When I hear you say that, like I only think about that's really just. Trying to find, this is my brain interpreting it, like just healthy boundaries again, like trying to establish those healthy boundaries, because at least from the churches I've been a part of, and the one that I was part of, or my family is part of, John's family, it, I mean, we were, we would talk constantly about being in community.

You know, living together, you know, living life together, not living together, but living life together. And, you know, that would be weird if we all live together. That does happen. So like full house. Um, but anyways, like, you know, confessing sins and, you know, we were all in each other's business and I, now I don't really think that was healthy at all.

And Resetting those boundaries. That's when you describe that. It's like a person just getting their voice back and resetting boundaries. It's hard It's really hard, but it's worth it for sure. Now Emily correct everything that we said that was wrong 

Emily Maynard: No, I think that's [00:38:00] so great Like I think it's helpful to name how hard it is cuz I've been through this too, right?

Like you kind of want to keep an eye on people or maybe you're like not sure if you're not friends anymore But you like don't even know what happens you kind of keep checking up on them You But it really is gonna be essential. I tell people you can always reconnect again, but if it is hurting you to see someone's content, please mute them.

Try to give yourself any separation. Maybe you log in from another device in your phone if you want to check up on them. Just something so they're not constantly like showing up in your algorithm in some way and re triggering you. 

Johnna Harris: I think another Aspect of that too that I'm thinking of that I felt personally that I had to work through and probably still am working through, we probably got to go EMDR this, is Seeing people continue to show up or be able to be a part of that community after I had expressed what I had experienced made me feel [00:39:00] like the people that said they loved me and said they were my friends didn't believe me because I felt like if you believed me, you couldn't keep just showing up there.

Like you couldn't continue to be a part of this without making some noise. And so it felt like I internalized that as some pretty intense betrayal because I felt like you, you believe lies about me. You have to believe either I have to be just totally crazy person and malicious and making up this wild story, or What I'm saying is true, and you kind of have to believe that I'm a crazy, malicious person in order to stay in this system, and that was really hard for me, and so seeing people, that continual reminder, like these people who told me they believed me, or told me they loved me, cared about me, that they wanted to, like, live life together, like Jay is saying, they didn't actually know me [00:40:00] or they didn't, they chose to believe the worst version of me that I never presented to them.

That layer I think is maybe something people can relate to when they're seeing social media posts with church members, friends continuing in those systems. Yeah, or did I 

Emily Maynard: even exist? Like, I, there's nothing that makes you feel more like, makes me feel more like see through than if someone has heard my story, has said they believe me, right?

And then they continue to show up in that space where I told them what happened. And, and it feels like, wow, they must not care enough about me, right? Like, I see this with, in families with siblings who maybe have different relationships with parents, right? They're like, hey, our parents treated us really poorly.

One sibling might be able to say, like, yeah, I can still have limited contact with them in these ways right now at this time. And another sibling might need to say, I can't have any [00:41:00] contact with them, right? And then the friction develops between those two siblings, because they have different experiences and different paths forward.

And maybe it's true that you need to just keep reducing your contact with people who don't share the values. with you about like, what do you do in a harmful church with this like, pastor for life kind of position. Um, but it's tricky. It's complicated. Like, maybe you have to keep seeing those people for some other reason, and then you have to learn to tolerate their having a different experience with, with that.

than me, or they're having, they're making different choices than me. And I think that's part of healing is being able to differentiate. Like, I can do what I need to do for me, and I can let other people have their own stories and paths and choose whether or not I can be around that. Or whether I just have to let it go.

Jay Coile: And as the introverts out there who are listening, my fellow introverts, cause I am one, that doesn't mean that you can have no contacts with, absolutely, because I've done that and it [00:42:00] doesn't work. It makes it worse. So boundaries are good, but you still need people. 

Johnna Harris: Okay. On that, on that lovely note, actually, I think that was really important.

I think there's a lot of people that are just like you, Jay, that can just Shut it off. Yeah. Not good. And then you have the Aaron and Jonas of your life that are like, you still have to talk to us. You have one last point here that I think is really important, and I'd love for you to expand on that. So would you like to expand on that last point that you have here?

Emily Maynard: Yeah, the last thing I think you can do if these stories are hitting home for you in a way about, or you're making sense of some life experience you've had, is take it slow. Like, I think often we get drawn into these groups because we believe the promise of the quick fix. Like, I want healing. I want to connect with God.

I want to make the world a better place. Like, I want to help. And we want that with healing, too. [00:43:00] Like, we're like, great, I'm going to do the trauma healing. I'm going to jump into EMDR, or like, I'm going to just leave this abusive situation and like, find a better one. Right? Like, all these beautiful good intentions.

But anytime you're staying in something fast, or you need something instant, you're staying in that trauma story, and real healing is slow, it is often boring, it takes so much time, like grief is a really hard road to walk, and you think you've achieved it, and then it's going to come back around, like the orbit is going to pass you again, and you're going to Wonder why you feel so weird today.

And then you look at the calendar and you realize like, Oh, a year ago is the day that I left, or I finally told my story this time last year, something like that. So know that you might not know yet where or how you can find your way back to safety, to a calm body, to a spirit that's aligned with truth and [00:44:00] justice, but know that you can.

And it's never going to be complete, right? You can't change what happened to you, but you can change the stories you tell about it and the way that you interact with people now. You can find things that will make sense, but it's going to take longer than you think. And that's really frustrating, 

Johnna Harris: truly. If the church, Big C Church, was better at taking everything slower, then we would probably not have a podcast because I think so much of the system that is harming people is because everything needs to be fast, everything needs to be about numbers and money and growing and it's All, like, the bigger and faster you grow, the more people get thrown out.

Because you can't really do effective ministry in fast, big, [00:45:00] flashy ways. Effective ministry looks like Jesus's ministry, where he walked alongside people. He had slow, intentional relationship with people. I find it in myself. I think many people will relate to that. I see it a lot in the, um, the survivor community.

I'm using air quotes, but that's actually like, it's a thing. The survivor community from religious trauma. Um, and there are also a lot of people here that are making you promises that there's going to be some form of a quick fix or you were hurt here, so come here and find healing. And it just doesn't work like that.

So I guess I say that to caution you that if you're seeing things that. It doesn't seem like it's going to be the fix that you need right now. Just like, take a breath. Really like look at it and measure, is it certified? Does it have, like, is whatever you're looking at something that is truly trauma informed and [00:46:00] educated?

Those are things to look for because there's a way to capitalize on what we've all experienced and it is happening. So, just be open to it. Slow to even spend your money or jump into spaces where healing is supposedly going to occur. 

Emily Maynard: And if you start something and you're not finding it helpful, and you ask a question like, Hey, why do you feel like this isn't working?

And you get brushed off, like, go try something else for a while. Like, if therapy is not working, stop therapy. Maybe you need to read a bunch of books for a while. Maybe you just need to take a lot of walks. Like, maybe you need to really, um, dig into something else. Like, I, I talk to people who are spending all of their time, like, deconstructing.

They're listening to all of the deconstruction content and they're following it. And they're like obsessed with these churches and these, you know, institutions. Like, what are people doing now? Again, there is a place for that. That is enjoyable. Like, if you're choosing to do that, great, choose that. But remember that you might need to spend some time, like, learning [00:47:00] about something different.

Like, maybe you read poetry. Maybe, instead of studying deconstruction and the evangelical church, like, maybe you start learning about, like, racism and the experience of people of color in America. Like, maybe you start listening to other voices that are talking about something different that's still meaningful in life, but that isn't just focusing or fixating on the thing that harmed you.

Because that's a way that can almost stay in power of your time or your thoughts, right? I think, When I'm dealing with people who are leaving abuse, there's often like all these questions, is this person a narcissist? Like, are they a sociopath? Like, why are they doing what they're doing? And that's such a distraction from sitting with the pain that you experienced around that person.

And the fact that you're never going to know what happened in their life or their childhood that made them act in this harmful way. You're going to have to get really connected to self compassion, to practicing letting your body sustain [00:48:00] pleasure, to cultivating a sense of empathy for yourself that you might have never been allowed to experience or cultivate or spend some time identifying and developing.

Johnna Harris: Yeah, that's super helpful. And I think that people might not be able to name that. But I think there's probably a lot of fear in going outside of, even in the deconstruction or survivor spaces, those voices are a lot of the same voices that we would have listened to during our time inside the system.

And now we were all just meeting each other outside the system, but we're all building kind of the same thing that we were just in, because that's what feels safe, because that's what we know. But. That's it. That system is what hurt us. So it is a great reminder to like, go find beauty in the world. Go learn about something different.

Go listen to voices that you wouldn't normally. It's scary. It's going to feel uncomfortable for a lot of us, [00:49:00] but it's worthwhile. And I think that it will lead. too much richer lives in general. This is silly, but it's 

Emily Maynard: making me think of a time a therapist told me, you know, Emily, you, you can't rely on the person you just broke up with for emotional support.

Yeah. Breakup. Cause I think that's what we're, we, that's what we're doing. We're like, You're my ex. Like, you're my emotional support person. Can you still be that to get me through our breakup? And the answer is no. 

Johnna Harris: Yeah, and I see that like the most in people just like hunting so hard for a pastoral voice.

And it makes sense, but I could go on and on about that. It's just, That pastoral voice and needing that, it makes sense that we want it and we need it, but also that voice might not be the most educated on religious trauma or power dynamics or abuse in general, like they [00:50:00] went to seminary, they didn't go to school to learn about it.

psychology. So that is a really helpful point that you're making and something that just in general sucks. It takes a lot of time, guys. It's slow. It's not fun usually, but it's worth it. You're worth it. 

Jay Coile: All right. So Emily, anything else that you can think of that you'd like to share with us? This has been super helpful, by the way.

Uh, anything else you can think about these two topics or any additional topics you'd love to talk about briefly? 

Emily Maynard: I mean, I think the last thing is just remind people if you feel like any of this didn't apply to you, that's fine. Like freedom of choice and being able to take what you need right now. Take what applies to you.

Take what fits. And please just regard the stuff that doesn't because I can't speak to any particular matter. Thank you. situation that you're in, but I trust you that your intuition is probably sparked by something [00:51:00] that we talked about today. And I want you to take that spark and protect it and believe in it and listen to what might be there for you.

And The stuff that doesn't apply, that's fine. It's probably for somebody else, which is really hard to do when you've, when you've been in a place where there's all this structure, there's one way to be or one way to live, and healing is often about breaking down that idea of this very binary thinking that there's one way, one right way to be and everything else is a problem, and more about cultivating that voice, that intuition, those senses of empathy and compassion for yourself.

And letting those become your guides forward.

Jay Coile: The views, thoughts, and [00:52:00] opinions expressed here are the speaker's own and not those of this podcast. This content is presented for informational and educational purposes that constitute fair use, commentary, or criticism. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestion, or correction of errors.