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today's episode comes with a content warning
there is a conversation surrounding child abuse
child sexual abuse and religious abuse
listener discretion is advised
today we have the privilege to be able to bring you
Alicia story Alicia grew up a missionaries kid
a majority of her years
as a young child were spent overseas
but she and her family landed in Ohio
when she was thirteen
in Ohio Alicia attended a local youth group
where she disclosed that she was
a sexual abuse survivor
she was seeking support from the youth pastor
and others who LED this group
however instead of following the proper steps
for mandatory reporters the youth pastor
and others forced Alicia into several horrific
and abusive deliverance prayer sessions
Alicia's bravery to come forward and share her story
is commendable there is tremendous wisdom in her words
and her passionate pursuit of justice is inspiring
for J Coyle
I'm Jonah Harris
and this is the Bodies Behind the bus podcast
I am all about blessed subtraction there
there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Marshall bus
and by God's Grace
will be a mountain by the time we're done
you either get on the bus
or you get run over by the bus
those are the options but the bus ain't gonna stop
you either get on the bus to get run over by the bus
those are the options
put the bus I can stop
hey everybody
welcome back to the bodies behind the bus podcast
we are honored to have Alicia here today
she is going to share her story about her time
and a youth group in the Ohio
specifically Columbus and Pickerington
Ohio areas Alicia
it is an honor to have you on the podcast
welcome to Bodies behind the bus
thank you thank you so much for having me
so there's a lot to get into you with your story
I think though
I'd love to start if we could
talking about your family upbringing
and specifically
maybe your family dynamic during your younger years
sure so
I grew up as a missionary kid
we lived in Japan for
my parents were there for about 19 years
I was there for 13 of those
there were a lot of dualities growing up
so things on the surface looked quite good
as they had to be as a missionary family
there's a lot of pressure on
looking like a cohesive units
and every two to four years
we'd come back to the States to
to do our church hopping
and kind of giving our spiels about
the mission work we were doing
and part of that would be to share
whatever hardships we faced
and so my younger years there was a lot going on
it started with the honching earthquake in 1995
I would have been four years old at the time
and we actually lost our house
over 6,000 people died and that's when I
really started getting messages about
what emotions were okay to feel
and what emotions weren't um
so the messages about the earthquake
specifically were things like um
you know
God did this on purpose to bring the Japanese people to
to him um
that God protected us
because we were the ones that were
leading people to god
and we are allowed to talk about it
if we talked about it in in that same way
so when we would go church hopping
we share how god saved us from this earthquake
can we talk about all the devastation
and show pictures
but we weren't really allowed to talk about
the personal effects of it
and how scary it was
and to really feel any of those hurtful emotions
and it was two years later
that another traumatic incident happens
we went to a lake house where we were just vacationing
and I made friends with a girl next door to my cabin
and the cabin caught fire
and she was the only one that didn't make it out
and the way that it was explained to me again
was that she's in a better place
even that girl's mother kind of in her grief was like
I just pictured the Japanese people burning in
in hell forever and I know my daughter
at least it was temporary
now she's in heaven and she's happy
and as a I think I would have been seven at the time
as a seven year old you know
I could
I could grasp heaven that she was in a better place
but I could not grasp what it was to
to suffer and to die that way
and why a god that was a god of love
would do that to somebody
and so again
it was a situation where I was forced to kind of
see how god was protecting us
and like evidently
that Protection didn't extend to certain people
and I wasn't really allowed to show grief
because that would mean
to doubt that she's in a better place
or the verse that was always used was
God is love and perfect love casts out all fear
therefore if you have his love
then you wouldn't have fear
so very early I Learned to
to hide those emotions
and it was only shortly thereafter that I started
being sexually abused by family member
and I will say that the environment was just
set up for this
because my parents were constantly away
doing mission work and going to mission meetings
and focusing so hard on the church
that I think they perhaps
genuinely
believe that god would take care of the family
and so there were long stretches of time
where we were just left at home alone
and so that was a a time period from ages 5 to 10
that the abuse was happening
and then
when I finally disclose that abuse to my parents
after we moved back to the States
the reaction was just terrible
the first words out of my mom's mouth were like
that is so sick this makes me sick
she went back to her bedroom and ran a bath and told me
like she just couldn't look at me
and so yeah it's
it's on the surface
we look like a happy family
and people from the congregation would tell me that
I'm so lucky to have um
you know pastor so and so as my dad
and to be a part of this great Christian family
and they just have no idea what was going on
behind closed doors I'm so sorry
every time we talk to you
I'm just amazed at how well
you're able to articulate these really hard things
and how evident it is
that you've done so much work to heal
and that's not that's so commendable
like I just wanna commend you for that
because it's heavy and hard
and we're so sorry that you went through that
I had a clarifying question for you
before you move a little bit further denominationally
you don't have to give it the denomination
if you don't want to but like
I guess theologically
where would your family have sat in that
cause I think it's interesting
the dynamic as we get further in your story
where you ended up and like
how both places actually still have their problems
you know sure
and I'm fine to name it
we were actually with the International Mission Board
so it's part of the Spc and
you know no surprises
we would kind of
fit some of those statistics that are currently being
you know unveiled
all right well
that's helpful
I think as we move further into your story
Jay
did you have any other questions about her childhood
before no
I was just can I was gonna say like
I am also impressed with how you articulate things
but I also just want to recognize
the fact that this was such
being a sexual abuse survivor
an advocate I would say you're definitely an advocate
cause here you're selling your
selling your story it still doesn't
it still doesn't give enough
we don't give enough space to say
how traumatic this has been
and how much hurt you've had to carry because of this
and I just wanna give that space to you and say
what you endured was horrific and evil
and you should never have endured that
and I'm just sorry thank you
that means a lot because you know
as a
in that family as the pastor's daughter
my dad would even give sermons
where he would look at me
and he'd say things like
when something happens to you when you were 7 or 8
you just need to get over it
because god doesn't want you dwelling on the past
and it was just so obvious what he was talking about
and this was too like inner city churches
cause this is after we move back to the States
and so he'd say this to a large congregation
that had abuse histories
not to mention abuse in the own
his own family so it's extremely hurtful how the
the church in a lot of different cases
will perpetuate these kind of messages
I'm so sorry it's so frustrating to see the need
we have just this giant need
I think in evangelical spaces in general
to turn something horrible into a mission
or it's like this great story
we have to make it a good thing
we can't just let it be a bad thing
it's heartbreaking to think of you as little kid
that you your whole story was being used
I mean kind of used to market Christianity
and I'm really sorry for that
and I'm proud of you for taking your voice back and
like I said doing so much work to heal
and Jay said you're an amazing advocate
and you have you have
bring so much wisdom to the world and to trauma
in general
so thank you for being here and sharing that today
thank you you did mention
so you guys end up moving back to the States
when does that happen
and what did that look like
I was in 2003 so I would have been 13
which is a great time to pick up and move
although it wasn't new to me
like I said we
every two to four years
we'd go back and forth to the States
and sometimes for longer stretches
I think the longest stretch of time was nine months
and so there was a lot of transition growing up
it would mean making friends in one place
getting close to them and then completely dropping them
and having to start over again
and not really fitting in either culture
in Japan I was kind of known as the American girl
and there's like a
a coolness to being the outsider there
and then when I came to the States
in certain regions I was just misunderstood quite a bit
especially because my family is
is from the south and I look like I am American
I have an American passport
I mean I am American technically
but I had a lot of cultural things that were Japanese
and so kids would call me the China Girl
which I found was ironic
since I've never been to China before
and then it would just really irritate me the
just the lack of knowledge about Asian cultures
but then even you know
smaller things like
the social norms
and things in the US that I never grew up with
so I didn't know about I remember
there's a time where I just
habitually went to one of my classes
in junior high actually
this would have been high school
um and I took off my shoes in the back of the classroom
out of habit and then went to find my seat
then I got in trouble for that
whereas in Japan I kept getting in trouble
because I forgot to take off my shoes
and so just all these little things having to adjust to
and then not to mention the
the social aspect of having to start over with friends
and not really having a support group
or people who understood what that was like
at any point did your family start pursuing like
counseling for you or anything like
did you have any support after you disclosed and you're
like moved countries
you're a very vulnerable age
middle school
did you have any support systems in your life
during that season no
not really I
so again we
we were allowed to talk about surface emotions
but I Learned so young that we don't talk about
the deeper things in fact
if I had to like really cry about something
I would always hide under my bed or going to my closet
and I thought that was normal
honestly until college
my college roommate found me crying in my closet
and she's like what on earth are you doing
I was like oh
doesn't everybody do this
so it was not really available until later on
when I was feeling so crippled by it that I
I begged to go to someone
but
there were a lot of restrictions about who I could see
and it had to be a very Christian counselor who
not so surprisingly lost her license later on
because of the things that she would do in session
but really during the
that time period of 13 to 15
there was no one
and that's kind of how the story starts
in terms of getting involved in the
in the youth group I mean how
how devastating for you especially as a teenager
you know you've disclosed to your family
I mean did you feel
I mean I know at the time you probably while ask you
did you feel safe within your own family network
yeah not
not emotionally physically safe enough
although even they're looking back there
there are things I'm
I think about that I probably wasn't as safe
I think I mentioned before that
just to kind of speak to the neglect aspect
when I was like 3 or 4 years old
my stomach was pumped three or four times
because I kept drinking things like fertilizer
and Drano and lemon nail polish remover and
and then there's another story of me
cracking my head on my dad's
well see
even the way I tell the stories
is very much how my dad would permit that
I cracked my head on this jigsaw
rather than he broke his jigsaw on my head
um and so
these are stories that would also get passed down
like during sermons
or it was his wedding toast at my wedding
that he was surprised that I lived this long
and I thought all of that was normal again
until these stories would get told in certain rooms I
e like my wedding
and you see the reaction of other people
who are just not laughing
and then when I had my own child
I realized that yes
your kid make it into something once
but then you lock stuff up or you are watching them
so having their stomach pumped 3 times
in a short period of time
is not normal
and it means that there's a lack of supervision
or lack of safety so
while I felt physically safe
I probably wasn't as safe as I felt
and definitely not emotionally safe
and I knew that
there were times where I just didn't wanna go home
in high school aside try to stay out as late as I could
that's in part why I went to the youth group as well
cause then there was like
an outlet for Wednesday nights
and sometimes Saturdays at one point
I was going to three different churches
because I was trying to get away from home
and it's so funny
because I thought that was my rebellion
I'm like oh
I'm going to a different church
which meant I was going to three different services
and feeling like I was such a
you know cool kid for rebelling
by going to a different church service
different level of rebellion as a missionary kid
I know that's like such
that's such a Christian thing to say
oh I'm rebelling
I'm going to the Presbyterian church
exactly it's funny
well
you did mention this other youth group a couple times
so you eventually kind of like
planted in yourself into this other youth group
that's local again
this is the story that we're gonna be sharing today
so it's in the you said Columbus
Pickerington area right
of Ohio
what denomination is this youth group
is this like your norm
is this something that your family would normally be
associated with
tell us a little bit about this youth group
sure it is
it's technically non denominational
or it was at the time and
it was a lot more charismatic
than anything I ever grew up with
very evangelistic so
the way I kind of started getting into it was that one
a bunch of people
from my school were going to this youth group
or at least knew the youth pastor
he would
often times come to our cafeteria and have lunch with
with us or hold a bunch of like
camps and outreaches and things like that
and he was kind of a classic evangelical youth pastor
in terms of playing pranks
and being really charismatic
and just drawing a lot of attention
and so that's how he kind of lures you in
and then in terms of the denomination itself
like I said charismatic
so there's a lot of like
talk of spiritual gifts and things like prophecy
or speaking in tongues or like
dancing and services
all of that was new coming from a more
I don't know what the right term is
like more strict Southern Baptist lineage
where we're more kind of liturgical in a sense
like every now and then we get an amen
but no
no people dancing or passing out in the Holy Spirit
very conservative yeah yeah
was there an overseeing he's the youth pastor
so were there other people on this church staff
yes in the beginning
so he was
initially the youth pastor of a church in Columbus
I don't know how much oversight he had
but he he was the youth pastor for that church
before he
branched out and created his own organization
and I think it was in 2007 that he
he branched out and became his own organization
so what
was that experience like within that youth group
it was great I made friends
I I would describe it looking back now is
is what we would call love bombing
so there's a lot of initial
people just lavishing me with attention
um so I felt seen for the first time
there was an older young adult
she was like her early 20s
and she had gone through the youth group
and she kind of took me under her wing
and um
I don't know if either of you had Zenga
during this time period that was like the pre MySpace
um so I had a Zenga blog going on
where I've still got her comments on there
and it says I've only
I've only known you for a week
but I can tell you that you are so special
and God loves you so much
I think you're the coolest person ever
and um
at that point she would have been like 20 or 21
and I would have been 14 or 15
and I would just say that
if somebody talked to my daughter that way
that would have been a red flag
and so that person really put herself in my life
she started coming to all my recitals and plays
I would have at school and the youth pastor also
it was clear to me
even at the time that he had a thing for her
and come to find out
even while I was still in the youth group
he had actually proposed to her when she was 17
and told her that it was God's will
that he had this prophecy or vision
that he would be his his bride
and so it felt like to me
there are times where he really wanted to
hang out with her and so
in order to do that without making her uncomfortable
I would be invited along
so be the three of us that would go
and we go to a coffee shop or go to the mall
or one time we went hiking
another time we went to
I remember a random pond
and vaguely like there's some daring going on
and like at one point
daring him to jump into the lake or pond
and he like took his shirt off
and when we went to the mall
he took us to Abercrombie to shop for his clothes
and that's the first time I'd ever seen an Abercrombie
and so
again
I felt like so rebellious and cool because I'm like oh
half naked men and it
you saying Abercrombie
just brought back a visceral scent
I can smell it right now as you're saying
it's so sweet
and that became such a trigger
after all these experiences
I sure smell that you can't like
walk past
like 100 yards around this store outside of it
I know and he
he was kind of known for wearing Abercrombie
Aeropostle and American Eagle
like those were his his brands
how old would he have been at this point
I think he was in his early 30s okay okay
yeah so yeah
I made all my friends
most of my closer friends were in the youth group
and so going on Wednesday nights
into these youth camps and things like that
was a chance for me to to be with my friends
and they would ask about one
who I was but also what I've been through
and so it was the first time that I started opening up
up about home
and what it was like living with my parents
and going through all that I had
and that was
these were the people that I actually disclosed
for the first time to
outside of my family what had happened growing up
I mean the Love Bombing is
is it's really it's sickening when you describe it
you know when you were in that moment
you mentioned it made you feel seen
were your parents aware that you were going to this
youth group or did they know this youth pastor
was there any connection there
no they didn't really know him
at times
it felt like they were kind of rivals or like my
my dad and youth pastor it felt like
there was some sort of power differential there
so for instance on my 16th birthday party
this shows you how cool I was again
the only people I invited were my youth
pastor and his female assistant
and like a couple of friends
and so we were hanging out a coffee shop and online
the coffee shop said it closed at 9 p
m but when we were there
they didn't say anything about closing
so I just stayed there when it was getting late
and my dad came in and he was so angry at me
presumably cause he didn't know where I was or like
what was happening
and he and the youth pastor kind of got into it
and there was a really big feeling of
what's it called when a bird fluff
is it lost its feathers like they're posturing
the pastor would even make statements about oh
it's so sad how
missionary families will often neglect their children
and I would never do that to my kids
and so I kind of saw these pastors like a father figure
and he wouldn't he be like
are you feeling safe
do you feel safe to go home with your dad
and do that kind of stuff
and then my dad would make remarks about like well
I always knew that guy was a creep
and like that kind of stuff
only after the fact um
when I confronted him like years and years later
but yeah it was a weird dynamic
I they didn't seem to like the youth group too much
but then other times they would make statements like
they were so happy that I was involved
in fact my mom is the one that made me go to
the first summer camp I didn't wanna go
and we had this thing where well
this is awesome poor parenting
but I was bribed a lot for any
like terrible thing I would go through
they buy me something and so
for going to the summer camp
that I really didn't wanna go to
I got a kitten
and then after all the terrible things happened
in the youth group my dad bought me a car
so as if to say well
whoops all that happened
here's your like compensation
wow that's so confusing
like even you saying that right now
if I was an adult in this situation
it would be so confusing and unsettling
and it would feel really hard to understand
what's real and what's not
and who's safe and who's not
and I think it's really insidious that there was like
he was rightly calling out things that were happening
in your family but in doing so
instead of bringing like
healing or actually helping you
like maybe reporting it
because that should have been reported
he was driving a wedge between you and your caretakers
because you absolutely needed adults in your life
to call out what was going on
but he wasn't doing it in a way that offered any safety
or healing
like all I can think of is off kilter
like I'm sure your reality felt so warped
and confusing all the time
uh huh yeah
it was and then
whenever I'd have doubts about the youth pastor
his group I would feel so guilty
because I felt like god literally gave me this group
because I was begging god for some sort of community
or for some sort of trusted adult that I could go to
and then this youth group kind of showed up and
and I got integrated and I was like wow
thank you this is a literal answer to prayer
and so I kept prayer journal throughout this whole time
and I got pages upon pages of
of one
begging god for those things
but two there's
there's pages where I'm starting to catch on
that the youth group has something going on with it
and so I say god
forgive me because I
I feel like something shady is happening
because the messages that are given to me
I see them doing that with somebody else
and that feels like
the words I used in that journal entry
where it feels like a scam
and then the next page I completely dismiss it
I'm like that was just Satan talking
like I'm being deceived by Satan
like all these
other messages
that I was also getting in the youth group
so it completely
just took away my ability to trust my own intuition
because I was being told that my intuition
because we are at the flesh
then most of our intuition is probably not trustworthy
are you start this youth group
what was the time gap I guess
or what was the link
before you disclosed to the youth pastor
uh not too long
so I think it was just after the first summer camp
so it would have been maybe six months
so in that six months
you're interacting with these youth pastor
it sounds very frequently and in hindsight
probably super red flag a lot of red flags are going on
that no one's picking up so when you disclose
what is his reaction initially it was good
so again I was like
connected with people that were asking me questions
and wanting to know my story
so I told him but I also told his female assistant
the one that he had proposed to
and I was also connected to another pastor
that was kind of in his network
and his female assistant
and that other female assistant
shared her own history of abuse with me
by a family member to the extent that
she was sharing her own journal entries
from when she was a kid and again
looking back on it now I'm like that it that was weird
she would have been mid 20s
maybe early 30s
and she was like sending me emails about this
and so essentially particularly the women starting off
they were like pulling the story from me
so for the first time
I felt like I could actually talk about all
the things that I had lived through
and the abuse that I had experienced at home
and I was given a little bit of time to grieve for that
so at one of the first incidents I can get into
they specifically
I was told think about the abuse you've been through
grief for it let yourself cry
and I did and once I started
I couldn't stop
and it was very clear that they had a time limit um
on that and then the messages switched
and it was that switch that became really
really really
really harmful and they started blaming
like demons and spiritual warfare on
on symptoms that I started disclosing to them
like I was having panic attacks and nightmares
and intrusive memories and
and things that today we would all label PTSD
but they were seeing it through a
or at least telling me
that they were seeing it through a spiritual lens
of demonic attacks so
you disclose I just wanna make sure
we keep people up to date on the timeline
disclose
there is a period where they see you and you feel safe
if you could
go back to when you allowed yourself to grieve
like how would you describe
I mean grief is a
is a word it's an action to a verb
but how would you describe that
like what your body was experiencing
allowing that grief to kind of finally pour through
yeah there was a certain level
of freedom because I'd have to
I had previously had to hide all of that before
so like I mentioned I wasn't really allowed to
to cry very much about certain things growing up
like I could cry about I don't know
a girl that was mean to me at school
or kind of more service level things
but anything deeper than that
I kind of had to to stuff it
and so
having this felt sort of free
that I could just let it out
that people were validating me wow
that really is a horrible thing you've been through
and I was getting a lot of uh
I would have said empathy but probably sympathy um
I'm so sorry you've been through that
that's awful but it also felt a little bit intrusive
because they would also do things like okay
picture the exact memories of
of the abuse that happened
and now try to imagine Jesus in the room with you
when it was happening and that's a really
not okay thing to do for a trauma survivor 1
because these people aren't trained in
working with survivors but 2
it warps your spiritual sense
because when you say that
after something bad is already happened
at least for me
I would envision this on a white Jesus with the beard
standing in a corner of the room being like
oh sucks for you while this is happening
and it did nothing to to help my face
that's also just so so you like know your stuff now
you went to school for this
you know trauma
yeah sure
yeah so I mention
you know looking back on things
I right away
I knew I wanted to get into psychology
towards the end of my high school career
so I got a bachelor's degree in psychology
and criminal justice
specifically aiming to work when victim advocacy
and then I got two master's degrees
one in mental health counseling and one in crime
in victim advocacy
and then went on to get a doctorate in counseling
psychology with a focus on trauma
which then LED to a postdoctoral fellowship
focusing on trauma specifically
and so now I'm a psychologist
and I'm on the New Hampshire Board of psychologists
and working at an Ivy League school
and a large portion of my clients
I would say here survivors
so I'd like to think
I know a bit of what I'm talking about
like just a little bit so like when you look back
you're not saying hey
this isn't good for trauma survivors
you're saying like I am educated in this
and this is absolutely harmful to do
to someone who has experienced this
I am not educated at
at all comparatively to what you are
and I also would not do that to a child
the like logic of it doesn't make sense
but I'm even thinking back to like
them sharing their journal entries of their own abuse
with a child who experience this
like how traumatizing I mean
as an adult if I was sent trauma journals through that
they're journaling through this traumatic
sexual abuse in their childhood
that would affect me that's
that affects me as an adult
I can't fathom what that did to your child brain
that's not okay so many mixed feelings
it's traumatizing you in a different way
well yeah
I mean
it's confusing because it was so validating at the time
because I was also journaling about my abuse
and so I'm like wow
I'm not alone
but hers took a swing in terms of her story
she was telling me
was that she had forgiven her perpetrator
and now had a great relationship with him
and didn't hold anything against him for it
she in a way that I don't agree is healthy
there is a time and space for forgiveness
but what she was describing was absolutely not okay
and the things that were done to her
in the way that she was talking about
having forgiven him air quotes
and then having this like lovey dovey relationship
it was very off and so
there was kind of an insinuation that that was
the path that she wanted me to be on was yes
have this little grief period
where you cry a little bit
and then let God do his work
so you can forgive and forget
I'm sure you wanted to be on that path too
at that time it's much easier yeah
I would have given anything
so that's really confusing because it's not healthy
it's actually not safe
it's not anything that's going to actually
help you heal in a way that is
or restorative for you as a person
and this is what
the people that you respect the most in your life
that you trust the most in your life
are telling you you need to do
it's very confusing
fast forward 30 years
and the church is still handling these situations
the same way forgive and forget
forgive and forget
oh yeah it turns abuse into your problem
so at first it's like oh
something terrible happened to you
I'm so sorry now it's your problem
because you're not forgiving the perpetrator
for doing it and so all of a sudden
it's your sin and what you're doing with it
which it's just so toxic okay
I could talk about that really long time
but we're not going to
cause we'll get on a rabbit trail
but so I wanna talk about the spiritual warfare
so they make this pivot to the spiritual warfare
I was obsessed with spiritual warfare
when I was a teenager um
I'm just gonna I'm just gonna be throw it out there
and I was all into that and so I
it freaked me out then
I did I would imagine you were freaked out
but what were you thinking when that
when they suggested this oh gosh
it's so insidious because it happens slowly
cause the message is about like
my symptoms being demonic
first it was like you know
Satan's just attacking you
because God has great plans for you
and you're so gifted like at one point somebody said I
I probably have the gift of prophecy
and I'm gonna be this great
I don't know Christian leader of some sort
and so it was peppered with these
these these compliments
I was like oh
I I'm struggling because I'm special
so that's how you kind of get on board with it
and like you know what
that makes sense like I'm doing all the right things
it's just Satan is not wanting me to
to succeed but then it became more than that
and so it was like that shift between like
you're just being attacked by outside forces to
you're letting them in
or there's something you're doing that's not working
or there's a demon actively inside you
like they were a little iffy in terms of doctrine
about whether Christians could be
fully possessed or not forget the term they used
not quite possession but
there's another term
that basically means the same thing
I can't recall at the moment
I mean
I think often we'll hear words like we heard it in
we had a storyteller who also experienced this in SBC
adjacent Acts 29 Church
where she was dealing with a lot of depression
and they were saying
like there's a spirit of depression on you
and so it was like
we need to exercise basically this like
demon off of you
it was very similar where it was like this nebulous
like you can't be possessed if you have Jesus in you
but like they can be so heavily influencing you yeah
that which is so confusing too but anyway
if you give them a foothold or you open a door yeah
like the big thing I remember growing up was like
if you listen to secular music yeah
which I I threw all my CDs away at 16 and 14 or 15
I bought them all back though
but anyways yeah
that's the thing but l story l l yeah
if you give him a foothold give the devil a foothold
like he'll come in and and
and that could open up your life to depression so well
and in this case the foothole
they were talking about
was my experiencing sexual abuse as a child
they said that open the doorway
it created soul ties between me and my abuser
and his demons must have gotten into me
and like all these wild insinuations
soul ties is an interesting topic
and we don't have to talk about now
but it is something to explore and if John just FYI
you need to I don't know if you've looked at that
but Soul Ties is it oh
I have I grew up in purity culture okay
alright well it's coming yeah
we got we got sermons on that in college alright
so they they mention this so what's the next step
eventually they
they say
we need to go through some deliverance prayers
bright is that the next step or walk
so they don't even say it
I just got thrown into one
so it was the first official incident
I will call it
or deliverance session was actually after a
one of those youth camps
I can't remember if it was a winter camp
or summer camp but it was the same camp
where one of the female assistants was like
you know take this time to grieve
let it all out picture Jesus in your memories
and so that's when the flood gates opened
and I couldn't stop crying
and what I know happens looking back on it now
is that I just fully dissociated at that point
I felt like I couldn't talk and I couldn't move
I was just like frozen and they noticed that
and they started asking me to repeat Bible verses
after them
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
they wanted me to write that verse down
I couldn't do it because I was fully dissociated
and so they were like wow
this girl's like fully demon possessed at this point
so
they kind of put me in the middle of a group of people
I would say
there might have been like fifteenish pastors
and leaders that just kind of circled me
and I'd never seen or experienced this before
so I didn't know what was about to happen
but I was just in the middle
I think I was standing up at this point
and they started praying really loudly in tongues
which is also my first experience with tongues
and if people are not familiar
it's just it sounds like an alien language
really freaky
especially when you're not exposed to it
and so there's all these
mostly men
really talking loudly in tongues and gesturing
and then they started laying hands on me
which was major trigger um
especially when their majority male hands
speaking in an alien language
um and I just felt really claustrophobic
so I tried to exit the circle
and that's when things got kind of frenzied
so they they'd shove me back in the circle
they put their hands on me to
to stay in one place they got louder and started
the circle started coming in on me
and so they were like basically in my ear
shouting in tongues and at one point
somebody grabbed oil and was like
putting it on my forehead
and I just kept kind of shouting and trying to
to exit the circle
it was like a fighter flight sort of sensation
I just knew I needed to get out
and so I was like just pushing and
and grappling
and could tell that that was riling them up
as well like they
they would take that to mean that
the demon is fighting back
and so they'd only pray louder
and it just continued for hours
I wanna say that particular one
which may have even been the shortest one
was like four hours long so at that point
when it was just these leaders there
and they did it until I just couldn't stand anymore
and was just exhausted
and then they kind of disbanded after that
and the next day
I woke up and had like bruises all over from like
how hard they were holding me in
and that was when
they were kind of giving me the message of okay
I think
the demons have really kind of taken over your life
that they're the ones causing these panic attacks
and these nightmares and and we're gonna help you
we're gonna do these prayers with you
and it'll take all those symptoms away
you'll not have to struggle with that
and so I believe them at that point
because I didn't know fighter flight
I didn't know dissociation
I didn't have language for any of that
and so
when I felt myself doing these things involuntarily
I was like oh
that makes sense it must be it must be demons
like I can't say this Bible verse
I really really want to like
I'm a on fire Christian and I have such a strong faith
and I can't say Jesus right now
what is wrong with me and so I bought into it
and I think that perhaps
is one of the most hurtful pieces
looking back on it's like the
the level to which they LED me to believe that
you know I couldn't trust myself for
there's something so fundamentally wrong
it's just really sad and so that's why
you know
the classic victim blaming is why did you go back
well
because they sold me the story that promised healing
and so that's now
it's ironic because the
the word healing is kind of a trigger for me
um like oh
you'll be healed and freedom
and it is for Christ that crisis set is free and
and Lord knows for freedom that crisis set is free
and they keep shouting those kind of verses at me um
with the premise that once these prayers worked
I would never struggle again
and of course as a survivor with all the PTSD symptoms
I was like wow
that would be great
and then I wouldn't be letting my family down
because I would be a good Christian girl
and I wouldn't struggle this much and
you know on and on and on
I wanna set the stage here too
so the youth pastor was part of this
yes and okay
and where the other men in that room
were they members or I guess
were they part of that church you
the youth pastor was connected to
some of them were so
these camps that he would lead
they were for youth
across a bunch of different churches in Ohio
how old were you when that happened
that would have been around the time I was 15
15
okay so after this occurred
did you share any of it with your family
nope didn't share it with my family
they didn't really ask
what happened at the church services
or what it was like
I had a friend that actually noticed
noticed all the bruises and he was like
where did you get those from
and I was like I'm just wrestling
which I guess technically was true
but
either my parents didn't notice or didn't care to ask
and I think this is important to you
can you just
brief explanation of what a dissociative status
because I think most people should know that
but I would love for your professional opinion
what is what does that actually mean
sure it's kind of a defense mechanism
so
if you are faced with a lot of pain or a lot of trauma
your your brain essentially says okay
I gotta peace out now I can't be in this body
I can't experience this right now
so what will happen is
sometimes people experience
like an out of body sort of experience
like you're watching everything happen
or you just feel really numb
you're not really connected to what's happening
in the minute so when something gets really too painful
it's it's the
brain protecting itself
and kind of zoning out to an extreme degree yeah
and I mean that would explain I mean
you were being assaulted
so I'm abused and so you checked out you're like nope
not gonna deal with this okay
this wasn't the last incident
so what was what was the plan then
what was the youth pastors next step
or how was he going to continue these deliverance
prayers to help you with this
which is absurd to say help yeah
they were hurting they were hurting you
but they thought they were helping you
so what was the plan
so I don't know if it was a plan and if it was a plan
I wasn't privy to it
so I just kept remaining part of the youth group
and then by the time we went to the next camp
I wanna say the first one must have been a winter camp
and then the second one
that happened was at a summer camp
so it wasn't that many months later
that I went to the summer camp
also the same idea
so it's youth across different churches in Ohio
that the youth pastor LED and kind of set up
and the major players were that youth pastor
and his female assistant
another youth pastor that he was kind of besties with
and then that youth pastor's female assistant
so the four of them kind of
spearheaded a lot of these things
but do I do
you want me to go ahead and jump into the second
I'm fine with that giant do you have any okay great
yeah go ahead and jump in to that no
I'm just gonna keep ranting about her being a child
this whole time I know
and it's just blows me away to
there's so many things that are so like
no one helped you I'm just really really sorry
like you had physical marks on your body
and no one helped you
and like I just that's just a lot
it's just a lot
yeah and these were the people that I was like wow
somebody actually cares
enough to do these things for me
and so that just the the level of work thinking and
and what it felt like that that level of trust was
was betrayed as a lot to reconcile with
and this second incident it's interesting
cause I think
my gut was telling me that something wasn't right
so it happened
because it was during one of these sermons
that was really meant to to evoke feelings of guilt
this is me analyzing it after the fact well
actually in the fact too cause this is one that
I actually do have a journal entry um
that corresponds with it so
it was during one of these sermons
that they have the music in the background
that typically has the minor key
and there's like a build up and the whole spiel is we
all do terrible things
and you need Jesus to come save you
yada yada
um and it was so clear to me
even at the time that this pastor was manipulating us
that
he was deliberately trying to make us to feel guilty
so that we could all rush to the altar
so they could do their whole prayer stick
and I was so pissed off
that I got up and left that service
to go back to my bunk and journal
which is why I have the journal entry to this
so
the top of this journal entry starts off talking about
I feel like this is so phony
like they're just manipulating us
they want us to feel a certain way
and I don't know how much is coming from you
god versus like
how much is just me and my sinfulness reacting to this
what is real here
and the journal entry stops mid sentence
because what happened is that the youth pastor
and his female assistant
and the other female assistant came into the room
there's also another person there that
I can't recall who they were
but it was four people that into the room
including those three
and they said that I needed to come back
or they would make a scene
and essentially what they we're saying was that they
what was it
they would care the area where all my friends were
and they would make it known that I was causing
trouble and that
that wouldn't happen if I went with them willingly
and at this point
I'm still like riled up and I'm pissed off so I'm like
no I don't wanna come with you
I wanna stay here in my bunk just leave me alone
so they actually started pulling me off the top bunk
I have a question for you
did the female staff come into your room
or was it all of them
all of them all of them and it was the male staff
did they knock first no
so what if you weren't dressed
what are they doing going into a minor's room at a camp
didn't even all right sorry but yeah
continue so that's very inappropriate yeah
and it was the men that were well
cause a man handling
I guess that's in the the word itself
but they were trying to pull me off the bed
so it had to be the
the guys with the big strong muscles
yada yada try to yank me off the top bunk
and eventually I start
they've got me like halfway off the bunk and I'm like
whoa whoa this is this is dangerous I'll I'll
I'll walk so I came down off the bed
and then they have me arm in arm
as we walk through the back of the sanctuary
into a back room and they sit me down there
and immediately go into another prayer session
and this was not planned ahead
of time I didn't know this was gonna happen
and first it started off with just those four people
and I just kind of sat down and have my eyes closed
when they were speaking in tongues
and holding me down onto the chair
and then
I distinctly remember that the next time I look up
the room is now filled with men um again
there's 15 to 20 men that I don't know
are in this room
including the guest speaker from that night
who is the one that I was pissed off at
for manipulating people and so again
at that point I'm like I gotta get out of here
I got kind of panicky feeling
it was like I need to leave
and that's when when they were just
forcing me to sit down in that chair
and like hands on forcing me so I couldn't get up
they again were shouting in tongues
and I was fighting with him to get away
and at one point my eyes were closed again
cause I'm like I can't I can't get out of this
this is the only option
is to sit here and go through this
and at one point
one of the pastors is talking about prophecy
and my nightmares must be
this is where they go into the
I might be a prophet test or something
that I might be a watch tower
which means I could see spiritual warfare
so they were saying that
my nightmares were actually me
seeing spiritual warfare happen
and that's actually a gift
the pastor that was the guest speaker for that night
kneels down in front of my face and
and they make me look up into his eyes and he's like
you have a gift and you
you are gonna be the watch tower of the nations
and part of me at that point was like wow
god is gifting me with this like amazing gifts cause I
I mean this is what
15 years of being in the church and so indoctrinated
I'm like wow
I have I am the chosen one haha
that's why all this terrible stuff has happened
and then there's a murmur in the crowd
and they're like oh my gosh
look at her feet look at her feet
and so we all look down
and my feet are amongst a bunch of mic cords
cause it was back room
all the like tech equipment was back there
and they're like oh
that's what her dream was like
cause I had a dream that I told somebody about
that I was like
that I was in a pit of snakes or something
which is very
on par for spiritual warfare sort of stuff
Satan being the snake and stuff so they're like wow
it's God showing us like the metaphor
all the snakes at her feet
all these cords they
they look like the snakes
and I remember there's just two distinct parts of me
one part was like oh wow
it's real and the other part is like
are you kidding me
this is the back room with all the tech equipment
of course the the mic cords are gonna be here
they were here the whole time
what does this mean and so again
that lasted for hours until I just
I couldn't fight anymore
and then eventually everybody left senior watch
it sounds like they watched our
sounds like
they're like reading Lord of the rings in the back
back room and then they come out and they're like oh
we got a reference here so I mean
I don't like what do you do
what I mean
how are you handling how are you processing this now
these are two horrific events that have occurred oh
what are you feel like after this
yeah so it's wild cause like I said
I have my prayer journals from this time
I never mention it
in terms of physically what happened
but what I say is wow
that was a lot God forgive me
because I feel guilty that I
that I don't want that kind of attention
like I know you put all these great people in my life
and I'm so sorry that I'm not grateful enough
I have one entry gonna tear up
like I was looking at last night
and it was lots of pages
and the handwriting kind of gets really erratic
and six times in that entry
I say God
don't let them find me don't let them find me
I don't want another prayer like this
um and you can tell that it was not out
it was out of fear yes
but there was a heavy layer of guilt that I had
the fear because I was like
this is of God
he must want me to go through these things
these are leaders of God these
these guys have like God's telephone number
like they're the top people
and so I'm like God
forgive me that you know
they're gonna be so upset with me
that I'm gonna need another prayer
just the very next day
because what would happen is they do this prayer
and then the next day I'd still be upset
I'd still have trauma memories
and I'd still have all these emotions
and so I would be like wow
the prayer didn't work
and then my pastors gonna be upset with me
that didn't work
and they're gonna have to do this again
and that I
I felt they were gonna think I'm just attention seeking
because my symptoms aren't gone
and is there a limit to how much they're gonna
wanna help me and yeah
just the
it's heartbreaking to read those journal entries
and put myself in that state of mind
but yeah the
it's just crawled everywhere
don't let them find me don't let them find me
and I vaguely remember trying to like
hide when I was at the summer camp
and that never particularly worked well
there is no escape you had no safety
they pushed every boundary in your life
so not only had you been violated in your childhood
but they were violating you
you had no escape you were stuck there
it's the least empowering thing that you could do
to someone who has experienced
any sort of abuse but especially sexual abuse
and they were putting their hands on you
without permission
every single thing that you have described is the exact
I mean it's not good for anyone
even if you didn't experience sexual abuse
but add an extra 4 million layers of
not good for someone when that is in your past
and that's a trauma that you're having to
deal with in your life I'm just so sorry
they'd also ask me to pray for forgiveness
and so wrapped up in these prayers were
you know Alicia
asked for forgiveness
for the sexual sins that you took part in
like whoa
I didn't take part in anything
like this is not a consensual thing
but through that super conservative lands
that doesn't matter
your body was involved therefore
the soul tie has happened
therefore you know
right and you didn't know that at the time
you didn't have all the education you have now
so you just believe it this is how you believed it
world is being formed
when it comes to what you experienced
right and that counselor that I begged to see
I think I was also like 15
um and so this was everywhere
so the counselor that I begged to see
um my parents
would only agree to send me to this
Christian counselor and that
we had a session where my mom and dad are in the room
and I'm face to face with this counselor
and she has me go through this script that says
I renounce my sin of blank god
please forgive me
I rebuke any demons associated with yada yada
and she had me list
every specific act that happened during the abuse
in front of my parents and
these are words that I've never said out loud before
my parents didn't even know the details
I would plug that they didn't even ask for details
when I disclose to them
and then asking for forgiveness for all these things
it was mortifying and then to my great relief
I looked back for this therapist later
to see what she was up to
and turns out her license was revoked
because she wasn't keeping records
during the same time period that she was doing this
and like well
that tracks but guess what
she still is so her license was revoked
she's no longer
the guidance counselor for this Christian school
she is the principal of the school
it's everywhere when you did that in that session
did your parents have any reaction
when you're making these
I mean you're
I mean you're sharing these
horrible details of things that happened to you
was there any response in that meeting or afterwards
they were so happy in fact
later they invited the abuser up for a session
without my consent and we had a full session
where I was asked to forgive this person
and hug it out like literally hug it out
the abuser was crying my mom was crying
therapist just crying I have no emotion
I'm so numb I don't say a word the entire time
other than at the end I'm like yeah
I forgive you fine
so I mean
this is also the same time period that like
no one was calling DCF
and that's what I was about to say
she was a mandatory reporter
she should have reported that to
I know CPS or DCSF or whatever you call it in Ohio
and even I knew that so I was interested in psychology
and I kept telling these people
so at that point it was the youth pastor
I told my guidance counselor at school
I told this counselor none of them had reported
and I was like
I'm confused because I know about mandated reporting
I don't know how I knew about it
but I knew of it
so I googled who is a mandated reporter
what does that mean sure enough
I'm like oh
they actually were supposed to
so a couple years later I told another counselor
I was like why isn't anybody reporting this
I was still a minor at the time when I said that to her
she's like oh
I keep forgetting that you're a minor
because you're just so mature for your age
so she said that she's
I'll check with my supervisor and so she did
and that's how DCF ended up actually getting called
and that was a nightmare my parents were livid
my dad was like isn't it justice enough
that your abuser tried to attempt suicide
several times that was because of you
it was a whole thing
and then a social worker came to the house
and this is when I was 16 or 17
and I was immediately upset
because she was very good looking
and was wearing a skirt and like
I know what's gonna happen
my dad flirted with her the entire time
lied about everything he was like
you know my daughter told us as soon as we moved back
no as soon as no
as soon as it happened she told us back in Japan
I hadn't even told her told them until we moved back um
he's that's why we moved off the mission field
I told the mission board did all these things
none of that happened
so it's just a series of and if it did
the mission board should have reported it
oh yeah that's what we know how that goes yeah
we know how that goes oh
my gosh yeah
I was gonna ask
did you share anything with the social worker
did you share anything
especially with what was going on
what did you even think to share anything about
what's going on with youth pastors
well nothing about the youth pastor
I didn't even think about that
cause I was still
during the time period where I was like
they're just genuinely trying to help me
and I couldn't share anything else
because she got me alone
but it was in a house where the we had a fort
like a balcony situation
and so they just had my dad go up to the balcony
and I'm in the living room where it's the open level
he would have heard absolutely everything I said
so it's like no
I'm fine this person doesn't live with us anymore
left out the fact that this person does come to visit
relatively frequently and that when they do
my parents kept leaving me alone with him
because they wanted us to reconcile
so they literally leave me alone after they knew
and then try to get him to take me places in the car
and things like this so yeah
there's just no way to to share anything
which is why the youth pastor was also like
a good place but yeah right
it's just a failure at every single level
and layer of people
who should have been protecting you
and stepping in and checking in
it's it's chaos
this is a perfect example of how the church fails
survivors it every turn
yep and blame survivors yep
well all these people were Christian
it was a Christian church
it was a Christian counselor
it was pastor family it was yeah
nobody in the secular world was involved in this
so when you hear language like the church is a refuge
cause I know that's popular language
or we have protocols they're not working
and I don't think you really care
I would say a majority of our listeners
at least for a time
it probably has gotten more mixed now
was SBC Acts 29 more of the young
restless reformed space of evangelicalism
American evangelicalism and so
some of the stuff you're saying does not connect at all
right like
this idea that you would take a child into a back room
and put oil on their head
and scream at them in tongues
is not something that people in that space experience
but the handling of child sexual abuse
and the spiritual language putting on it is almost
I mean it's like that picture
or that thing from the office when Pam's holding
the two things they're the same picture
it's the same picture
it's just different versions of how
that spirituality is being imposed onto
the survivor I also was thinking like
as you've been talking and we had
still
have one more incident that we need to talk about
that you experience probably
the worst of it right
maybe two one or two more
two more gosh
I remember
so I had been trying a bunch of different churches
right out of my own experience
and we did go I was like
let's try some more charismatic churches
make me feel something you know
like I it was really hard what I walked out of
not even close to what you're describing
but still
like I was trying to find my way within Christianity
and we went to a more charismatic church
and they brought a kid up on stage
who was sharing their testimony
14 of how they had this
there was like a demonic oppression
a spirit of depression on him
and he felt saved now
because they had prayed away this thing
and I was sitting there like
I mean
this was in the last two years that this happened
I was sitting there like no
no no
and we didn't go back obviously
but as you're saying this
I think people from those spaces
this will be very familiar
so if you're former SBC
if you were raised in a very conservative
we don't dance we don't drink
we don't smoke we don't talk about this stuff
this might feel very shocking to you
but people that were raised in more like
pentecostal or charismatic spaces
even just like non denominational charismatic spaces
this is not uncommon
and I just wanna throw that out there so people
cause I think it can sound so foreign to people
it's happening today now
this type of behavior this type of language
it's not good so I
I do wanna move though cause we still have again
like we said two more incidents that you experience
so in the midst of social worker
biblical counselor all these people in this
like conservative or realm for most of us
I guess are failing you at every level
then you have this church youth group
who now has spun off on its own right
so it's like its own entity that's just existing
where you're being exposed to pastors around the state
who are all also charismatic
all also like minded
in how they view your experience of child sexual abuse
and the way that they are going to magically heal it
with the snap of their finger
and pushing you around and screaming at you
you have another incident
so can you walk us through like how that happened
how that came to be
are you at camp when this happens again
what went down yeah
so this one was
this was the most planned one
they asked if I wanted
I don't know if they asked as much as
we're just offering or telling
but the four main people the youth pastor
his female assistant
the other youth pastor and his female assistant
they said they could come over for a prayer session
to prep for summer camp and even though I've
been through a couple of prayer sessions before
I still kind of was naive
I thought like oh
so just be like a regular prayer session
will you'll prepare for for summer camp
but
it was a time when both my parents were out of state
and I was at the house alone
and they came over to my house
and this one relatively quickly escalated
so they're like okay
time to pray we
kind of had the same formation
that they put me standing up in the middle
and then the four people around me
and this time
they had me hold my hands up in the prayer
or like the worshipping hands
so hands reaching up
and they wouldn't let me put my hands down
or relax them and so at that point
two people one on each side held my hands up for me
which meant that I didn't have use of my hands for one
so they did the whole speaking
tongues getting really loud
and I was wearing sweatpants at the time
and my sweatpants kept falling down
and I have no hands to pull them up
so I'm standing here in my skibbies and luckily
one of the female assistants
like trying to pull them up for me
but it was extremely awkward
so at that point they decide to lay me down
and so they physically laid me down on the floor
like the memory so strong at it's not relevant
but they laid me down next to my um
fish tank in the living room
and they each took one limb
so there was one person on the left
one person on the right and one person on each foot
because I kept trying to get away
and at that point I
my fighter flight had kicked in
and so I was really really fighting at this point
I was trying to to punch them off
I was trying to bite them
I was trying to do whatever I could to get out of this
because now I'm feeling super duper unsafe laying down
exposed on the floor my pants were still on at the time
just to be clear but
and you're alone right
there's no one else in the house
and I'm alone no one else is there
it's not a public place there's not
it's not even a camp so there's not even like other
yeah people around you
it's you with four adults that are whole
pinning down on the ground in your house
yeah yeah
and it started kind of at night time
so it was like 7:00 I think they all came over
so at one point one of the
the pastors starts shouting the names of god
so he's like Jehovah
Jehovah
and each time he like slam my stomach with his hands
and I of course
really did not like that did not appreciate that
and I had tried to bite the person that
was holding my my arm down
so I could get this guy to stop
punch me in the stomach
one of the female assistants had
put me in a chokehold around my neck
and I was starting to feel like I couldn't breathe
and so I'm like I can't breathe
can you take your your arm off my neck
and just got so crazy because she would say
you're fine you can breathe
and I always tell this like dark joke from like
if you're in the midst of being exercised
or people think your demon possessed
don't speak in third person
because what I chose to do was um
I'm like this is Alicia speaking
and Alicia cannot breathe
because they weren't listening to me
so I'm like I assure you
this is Alicia speaking and Alicia cannot breathe
and that of course only confirms that hey
oh my gosh there isn't a demon first of all
that be a really stupid demon to to speak like that
but so they're like oh
and then so they say Alicia can breathe
finds the demon that's suffocating
and again somebody goes to the kitchen and grabs
either vegetable or canola oil
and I guess it's holy cause you pray over it
and then they pour it on my head and whole shebang
so we we fight this entire time
I'm trying to breathe and feeling like I can't breathe
and all this lasted until we
hours of the morning to the point where again
I couldn't move I couldn't do anything
and I just remember
like laying an exhaustion on the floor
while the male pastors and one female assistant
literally walk over my body
out the door cause they decided it was time to leave
and then one female assistant stayed
cause I think she must have been like
babysitting me at the time
cause my parents were gone
so she stayed while the others just left
I don't have anything I mean
I don't even know what to say
I mean every time we've talked
I just well
the lack of dignity
and the lack of humanity that people that gave to you
or extended to you it's just
it blows me away but the saddest part about it to me
Alicia is that your story
I feel like is probably
a story that's very similar to a lot of people
in these spaces and that I think
I can't I can't begin to describe
the courage you have to share your story
like how I think it's gonna be
it's going to be
something that really resonates with people
and that the person who's listening to this that goes
I wasn't crazy like I wasn't crazy
like that moment is is going to be remarkable
but what but I just
to get to that moment
we have to share these stories that are so horrific
and you get no resolution from any of this
you are left in your home to pick up the pieces
and you're in a place where you probably think
all of this is your fault
because you've left the door open
to allow this type of oppression
to happen in your life and men and women
grown men and women within a context of a church
that is built on the teachings of a savior
who preached well who lived a life of Grace
and giving dignity to everyone he met
are doing this and they walk away
yep
I just it
I know it's
it's mind boggling we had a problem
yeah
and you can tell they get off on the power of the power
so there was a moment when I was just exhausted
on the floor
and all four of them sat at my kitchen table while I'm
like almost passed out on the floor
and I can hear them laughing about something
they're just talking as usual
nothing had happened
they're just chit chatting and laughing
and I am conscious I'm like
what is happening here but again
I reached the point where
and not because I was dissociated
but because I was physically exhausted
I couldn't talk or move at that point
but you can tell every time I fought harder
it was like there's this excitement wow
we're really we're really fighting demons
this is what we were called to do
and that's really scary
yeah John always speaks to the rot
like we we have
to look at the rot of our systems and deal with it
the fruit you know
the fruit is rotten
and I would say in these spaces where
where this is prevalent the fruit is rotten
because we are harming and abusing people
and we're not addressing
we're not taking time to listen to people's stories
they didn't listen to your story
they had an agenda
everything cannot be explained away by
angels and demons and if it's
if our world view is that simplistic
then there's something very rotten about our world view
and it provides a scapegoat for actual justice
and actual accountability
for people who experience abuse
within religious institutions
because we can just blame spiritual oppression
and warfare instead of actually dealing with this
these are crimes if that
if anyone had had the wherewithal
like those that was assault
what you were experiencing
and you've known that you've
you've tried to seek justice for yourself
unfortunately like
it's almost impossible for victims of abuse
in these settings to actually get justice
especially when the church is involved
because there are so little regulations around
religious institutions in America
but I will say
a regulation is you can't assault children
so if you're out there assaulting children
yeah like maybe don't
and if you've seen it report it
I do want to make sure
we have time to get to this last
incident that you experienced
and I wanna reiterate again
so he has spun off to his own ministry at this point
correct so
there is no oversight whatsoever
outside of this youth pastor right
yeah it was around the same time that he spun off
so I'm not
I'm not sure if he had oversight at this point or not
yeah dates are a little bit fuzzy either way
even when he had the oversight
he was doing this stuff but now it's
it's it's almost more unsettling to me
that there's just no one checking in
he is his own entity yeah
yep CEO yeah
yeah so you have this incident
you're laying on the ground
where do you guys go from there
like are you still seeing this pastor
are you still spending time with him and his assistant
and what transpires after this
yeah so I think I'm still involved in the youth group
and I feel like this is when it kind of transition to
I'm in it but mostly because my friends are in it
that I wanna be a part of something
I think my distrust started to creep in at this point
because 1
none of these prayers are working
and if anything it was making my mental health worse
no surprise so it was just
I was getting so confused
there was a lot of self blame and guilt
but then also
this part of me that was having a lot of anger
and I think
was rightfully responding to what was happening to me
but that part I couldn't accept
because I was still in it
and these are men of god
and how dare I think like that about these people
and so this last incident was again
the same sort of message and
but it's different in that they told me
we're gonna pray for summer camp
but this time
I was LED to believe that it was with the church
so I thought again it'll be with all my friends
they're just gonna pick me up
and we'll go to the church and I'll be with everyone
and it's like the the prep work before camp
which does happen
so they have meetings together with the whole church
where we pray for God to you know
come to the camp and share messages or whatever
so they pick me up again it was night time
I don't know well I mean
this time it was specific
cause I couldn't see where we were going
so it was in the evening probably around 6 or 7
the youth pastor
and his female assistant picked me up from my house
again a week when my parents were not home
they frequently go
I don't know to mission conferences and stuff still
cause at this point my parents are still
were still considered North American
Mission Board members so
they were still involved in a bunch of mission meeting
stuff so again
when my parents were gone
and his female assistant come to my house
I get in their car and as we start driving
20 minutes into it I'm like
okay we should
we should have gotten to the church by now
um and I knew something was off because we kept driving
and it was like 30 minutes to 45 minutes into it
they're like we're going to a deliverance specialist
this is a guy that
specializes in these types of prayers
he's really powerful
we drive an hour and a half away from my house
quite literally
end up at a barn in the middle of nowhere
so like we specifically drew
drove through a cornfield and like a forest
there's a lot of trees show up at this barn
when I walk into the barn
there are two men there one man
I can confidently say
was the scariest looking man I've ever seen
and the first thing that man says to me is
I like the way you're dressed
you dress modestly and men really like that about women
again context
I'm 15 15 or 16 at this point
I may have just turned sixteen
and he's commenting on my appearance
and how that's attractive to men
and this guy was older he must have been like mid 40s
maybe young fifties right off the bat
I'm like okay this
this is not okay I thought beforehand in the car
when they were telling me this
I'm like okay
I given up hope that the previous prayers didn't work
but now
they brought in somebody that like specializes in this
maybe maybe there's hope for this time
but then this guy says this
I'm like okay
this is red flag they sit me down in front of him
so he's got his male assistant
who's kind of standing in a corner
and then my youth pastor
and the female assistant are sitting behind me
they sit me knee to knee with this person
so our knees are touching
and he looks at me and he's like
who hurt you
meaning the sexual abuse and so
I'm forced to disclose to him
these dark things that I don't just tell people
and he starts telling me about the services he offers
that he does these prayers for people
kind of on a professional level
that there's been many people that come before me
that there is blood underneath the carpets
and behind the wall
and that people shift into serpents and like bizarre
bizarre stuff there's like my youth pastor bizarre
this was a whole another level
and he real quick yeah
because I think this is so hard for people to hear
and place it in their brain
that this exists
while you were started talking about this
I googled deliverance specialist
and it's a thing you guys like
it's not even oh
this like
random thing in the woods that happens to Alicia
no here's what it says
it says deliverance specialists
also known as deliverance consultants are people
who participate in deliverance ministries
that help people solve problems related to
spirits and demons
these problems can include body and soul possession
demonic bondage and oppression from spirits of guilt
anxiety fear or lust
some deliverance ministries believe that Christians
can have demons in their body or soul
due to emotional wounds
sexual abuse or satanic ritual abuse
but not in their spirit
because the Holy Spirit lives there so
oh hey
that's what you were experiencing
it's a thing yeah
it's literally
and I didn't realize it was a thing until like
years later when I looked it up myself
it's like a playbook the things that they do
or talk about are the exact same thing
that will remind a little bit
so yeah yeah
so we get in there this guy stocks her crazy stuff
I vaguely recall
he mentioned that he put a camera up in the walls
because of the crazy stories that have happened
so if anybody happens to know
who this deliverance specialist is
in the middle of the woods
I was never told his name
I was never told the location
and we don't know if you were still in Ohio
I think I was still in Ohio
it's got to be Northeast Ohio is
as far as I've narrowed it out yeah
but literally I'm not told where it was
who it was or anything so the guy says he's just uh
refabed the the place cause the blood everywhere
so that's how
he sets the stage for what's about to happen
so immediately I'm wanting to leave
but they do the whole thing where they stand me up
and they're holding their arms on me
they start speaking in tongues
I freak out try to leave
um it gets more violent
so part of the reason
he was saying that the blood was everywhere
was that the demons were fighting back
and so I was fighting with them and kind of envisioning
oh my gosh this is how it happens
this is how like all these people who came before me
this is how they got hurt
and he
like it got so violent that I could no longer stand up
but right before they lay me down
I'm trying like everything I can to get out
so physical fighting didn't work because there's
at this point
there's three men and one female assistant
and I'm had just turned 16
so physically getting out is not gonna work
so I start praying out loud 1
because I genuinely believe that god could save me
2 I thought that
maybe that could prove to them that I wasn't possessed
that I'm speaking to God and I have no fear of doing so
so I would say things like daddy
come save me
because I was using very charismatic prayers
God Father
daddy please come save me
this deliverance specialist says
your daddy's not here he can't save you
so it's clear to me he thought I meant physical father
so I was like
ABA ABA save me they had no compassion on that
I started singing Lord I lift your name on high
to try to show them that I was worshipping
that I was like connected
so I just have this visual of me like on this
there's like a stage sort of area
and this is where all this is happening
and I'm like doing all the things
and then he starts to go on this rant about like
demons masquerading as an angel of lights
and how the demons know how to fake it
and I tried speaking tongues at one point
and they're like yeah
that's the masquerading
they want us to think the demons are gone
but they're not actually gone
and so I have a very clear sense of like
nothing I do
can convince them that the demons are gone
even if they are actually gone
nothing's gonna convince them so at that point
they do the same thing
where they lay me down on the ground
off the stage and one person is on each limb
plus the deliverance specialist sitting in a chair
next to me and I start coughing
so years down the line I find out
I actually have exercise and cold induced asthma
so I think goes because of the the physical exertion
I start having an asthma attack and I start coughing
deliverance specialist has a whole
spiel about what this coughing is
and this is stuff that you can look up
and it's actually other people said this
which blows my mind
but they believe that you cough up a ball of iniquity
and so he instructed
the female assistant to put her hand on my breast bone
so a couple of my buttons had come undone
she was putting her hand on my breast bone
and they're like wow
that's you can feel the physical lump there
even I'm rolling my eyes like that's a bone
but they're like that's the ball of iniquity
that's making its way up her throat
and she's gonna vomit
and they're talking like this in front of me
so they're talking to each other
she's gonna vomit up this really black and green
like inhuman material
and what that is is the ball of iniquities
it's the sin
that's all wrapped up in a physical matter
and she's gonna vomit it up
let's just feel it as it makes its way up
and then
while they're waiting for me to vomit up this thing
the guy starts talking about he has been visit oh
he had the best sex that he's ever had
because he was visited by a succuby
in the middle of the night again
I'd never heard of this kind of stuff before
so
he starts talking about his encounter with the succupi
and incubi and at this point
I'm honestly worried then that I'm about to be
I don't know what I can say on this show
but I'm about to be gang raped
that's what I thought in that barn
because he starts talking about sex
and then he says that there's a place in the body
where demons congregate on women
and of course I knew where that was
of course so they all
he instructed everyone to hold their hands
right over my womb so they
they held their hands close enough
where I could feel the heat from all of their hands
and at this point my eyes are closed again
like I'm not watching this happen
so they just keep their hands there
whether praying
doing all the tongues work and all this kind of stuff
and it's just so mortifying
because I just told this man about the sexual
abuse I experienced and
he's talking about
the demons that are living in my wound
and while their hands are there
and all this kind of stuff
and then
as part of trying to get the demons out of my wound
he also instructs the
female assistant to move from my breastbone
to putting her hand on my lower back
and on my pelvis on top of my clothes
but just holding it there while she prays
and then it was hours and hours and hours
like literally hours later
and I got to the same physical exertion
where I could never I couldn't talk
I couldn't move couldn't do anything
so the youth pastor kind of scoops me up and was like
it's time to go the deliverance specialist says okay
stop at the mirror on your way out
and so they he stops by the mirror
so I look at myself and my hair is all disheveled
and my buttons are kind of undone on the top
and the delivered special specialist says
I know how women care a lot about their appearance
you can fix yourself up now
and so I try to smooth down my hair
button the buttons up
and the past youth pastor takes me out to his car
puts me in the car starts driving away
and then 20 to 30 minutes into the car ride
I get my strength back
and I realize what has just happened
and that I'm alone in the car with this guy
and so I have the thought I can get out
like I can't I can't do this anymore
I can't be here with these people
I can't go home like I don't want a part of any of this
and so I just think if I can jump out of this car
I can run out into this field
my lofty plans were to run into the field
through the woods and somehow find a phone
and that was preferable
to stay in the car with these people
so I try to open the door
and I don't realize that when you try to open
the door on a moving vehicle
an alarm goes off so I open the door
the alarm goes off which tips the youth pastor off
that something's happening
so I immediately slam the door shut
at this point it was the youth pastor
and his female assistant in the front seats
and I'm alone in the back
so he turns to whisper to the female assistant
she climbs into the back with me
and starts holding me down
trying to not let me leave
so we get this tussle going in the back
where I'm trying to escape
she's trying to hold me down and I'm like
I can't escape physically
and then I'm just gonna have to like
I can't consciously be here
so I grabbed the seatbelt
and was actually trying to just wrap it around my neck
I wasn't thinking of ending my life
I was just like I wanna pass out
I don't wanna be here right now
and so we fight all the way back the hour to my house
at that point
I'm like the assistant has me kind of in a basket hole
like she's got my arms but my feet are loose
and so I grab the handle and
and push the door open with my foot
and I start to lunge outward
but by that time youth pastor gets out
grabs me and says if you don't start being compliant
I'm gonna go to the police and tell them that you're
suicidal and you're gonna get locked up in a hospital
and that was sufficient to scare me into to compliance
and so again since my parents were gone
they the youth pastor and his assistant
stayed with me that night
they put me on the couch
and they just watched me while I was sleeping
and slept next to me not physically
but like on the ground next to the couch
and then
took me to their church service in the morning
and that was that I mean
it sounds like they were watching that demon show
that was popular what the heck was it called
supernatural CW supernatural
this sounds like something that they were like oh
I watched an episode of supernatural
so let's go ahead and give this a try
it is so wacky and wild
and you can Google these things and people do this
it's real and you were a minor
yeah yep and no
you weren't consenting to this
you were kidnapped into this
there are so many illegal things that are happening
and no one is protecting you at all
it's like we've created a mythology that allows
like gives us this space to think that we
have authority to do these things
and that that mythology
like we're fighting in some sort of fictitional world
and it were truly trying to save you
when in all reality were
were causing uh
I mean just unknown harm and just total harm and
and do you mean I just
it's just horrible what we're doing in these incidents
and what was done to you
but there is this idea of this mythology
that this has to be done
and this is for a greater cause
and I think we get lost in that
well it's like that warrior mindset
I I'm like
the savior
and the knight in shining armor that's coming to like
slay the demons it's like demon slayer
yeah what is
and they'd use that Bible verse
I don't I don't remember what the story was
but it's where God gave
somebody the power to exercise the demons themselves
and so they tell that story over again
about how god has given us
granted us that power to do it ourselves
and it's dangerous I mean
I think like your story Alicia
is a great example of how this type of
this type of thinking has really
just
penetrated all different avenues of Christian church
and the tradition and it's not
it's not baked in reality
so whatever we think we're doing in these spaces
that we're creating these situations and
and the implications of these situation
our actions and and to try to handle
instead of trying to handle when someone discloses
and the way that we should handle it
we're creating so much more harm to individuals
and becoming places are further abuse
and we're we're not dealing in reality
I just wanna stress that cause I've come from this
these places too
like this is not reality what these people are doing
they are making stuff up they are making things up
and they are saying it is of God
it is not of God it is made up
we have to be more discerning and
and not
everything we deal in life is angels and demons
in spiritual warfare it's not
and I just see that in our culture so much
and in the 90s and it was definitely there
and I see it rebounding now and
and I'm just worried about those that
that that are gonna have similar situation
or similar stories to yours
because of that
that deep belief that they're trying to save the world
and save people from
from things that they're not doing it the right way
they're not even they're not even dealing in reality
so you go through this crazy incident
you get dropped at home
you have to go to church with them the next morning
how do you live the rest of your life
what happens do they do anything again to you
do you try to ask your parents for help
like how do you protect yourself from this
can you protect yourself from this
do you just age out what happens
yeah great question
and honestly this is the fuzziest part of my memory
is leaving the group
I'm not entirely sure how that happened
part of it was aging out because when I was 17
I was also when I was about to leave for college
and that was an hour north of
of Columbus
so part of it was I was just leaving for college
another part that I vaguely remember
and I don't know how I get from one point to the other
but in these deliverance sessions
and then all of a sudden
I'm being trained to be a leader of a cell group
in this group
so like I'm in a training session and I'm getting the
the materials
and learning how to leave my own groups and stuff
I don't know how that happened
or if they truly thought I was possessed
why they would all of a sudden want me to be a leader
that is unclear
I also remember having said something against the group
about how it was organized
or the structure or something
like I criticized something
and the youth pastor
like snapped is the first time I saw him
like really angry and so
I think that got me probably pushed out a little bit
so
number of reasons I think I was able to get out of it
and I went to college in terms of my parents
I never told them while I was living with them
it wasn't until I was in my master's program
and I was seeking therapy for the first time
from a secular therapist on purpose
because I wanted someone outside of all of this mess to
kind of help me sort out
like what is normal and what is not normal
and he's an awesome therapist
I'm actually still seeing him today
he is also a criminal justice and psychology dual major
which is partly why I picked him as well
and he's the president of the APA
the American Psychological Association Trauma division
so little plug for for him
but he was the first person who was like wow
that is straight up abuse
that is assault that is kidnap
because even up until that point
I was like well
maybe they went they meant well
but it just got skewed it got out of hands
maybe they didn't mean for it to be this bad
and he was able to pinpoint no
the way it was done
and the way that he kind of got away with everything
tells me that this isn't an isolated incident
and they knew what they were doing
so he was like spitting hard truths
and so at that point
I I even got to the point where I'm like
I'm scared for people that are still in the group
and I'm ready to consider reporting this to the police
and so before I did that
I wanted to see if my parents would have my back
and so I called my mom and I was like
I'm thinking about reporting oh
at first
I told them like maybe a few months beforehand
the full truth of what had happened
and they seemed surprised like oh
we didn't know it was like that
and that's when my dad made the comment about like go
he always seemed like a weirdo to me
or something like that no
he didn't say what he said purp
which I thought was an interesting choice of words
don't know what was going on with that
so then a few months later
I called us like
would you support me if I reported this to the police
and my mom was like I don't know what you would report
I was like what do you mean
I would report physical assault
I would report being restrained against my will
kidnap all these other things
and she's like well
I guess I just don't know where it would get you
because the buck kind of stops here
I was like what
and she's like well
the buck kind of stops with us because we
we let them take you they asked us
blew my mind I had no idea
that my parents were even talking to this youth pastor
she claims not to know
who the deliverance specialist is
which is also problematic
if you sign off on your kid being taken somewhere
and you don't know who it is
you don't know where it is
they didn't know the youth pastor
they'd never been to any of their services
but evidently there was communication at some points
where my parents okayed all of this
to happen and then they never asked about it
so that point I couldn't even think about reporting
I was reeling from this
and I got an email from my mom the next day
and she was like you know
I really regret pushing you into that youth group
I know I forced you to be in to go to that summer camp
but my biggest regret is that now
you're even in further bondage from
from this experience
and if you are in this world at all
you know
that bondage is code word for further demon possession
so essentially feeling like not only did it not work
but now I'm even more oppressed by demons
because of this added trauma of this experience
so that's a whole thing um
so I didn't end up reporting then
and then I continue therapy
throughout my master's program
eventually go into my doctor program
the reason I decided to actually pry reporting for real
just a few years ago at this point
I think it was 2022 maybe
the youth pastor published a book
so he published a book on his methods
not specifically at the deliverance stuff
but of his organization and how he recruits people
specifically how he runs crusades
which is what he calls his missions
which is also very problematic in my opinion
it's a list of his methodology
in terms of
how he works across different denominations
so while his organization is non denominational
what he does
is he goes into different churches
across all denominations
he trains their youth leaders in his materials
and his methods gives them the materials every week
so that they're running off the same materials
and he calls those cell groups
which if you're familiar with terrorist terms
that is also a terrorist term
and it works very much like that
so which is also part of why it's hard to report
because this is not a church body
it's not a building you can't go after
quote unquote one specific entity
it's it's in everything
so when I did report it I first called Columbus police
I was told that I couldn't tell them things because
what none of the incidents happened in Columbus proper
that I'd have to call each jurisdiction
that each incident happened in
I told them that I didn't know where
two of the incidents happened
so I didn't know where that first uh
camp was and I didn't know
I don't still to this day
don't know where that barn incident is
and I asked what am I supposed to do with places
I don't know where it is and he's like
well then you just can't report it
and it also means that
if you have to report in four separate places
with no communication in between the places
you also don't get the pattern
you don't get the escalation
you don't get the extra charges
that you would possibly be able to get
and as I think my therapist may have pointed out
this is how serial killers operate
not that I'm equating the two of those
but the methods in terms of hopping jurisdictions
because there's no
there's no communication between these places
it's so strict
to the point where I did call one of the jurisdictions
because the one that was at my house
obviously I knew what address that was
so I called made a report there
they refused to let me share anything about
anything outside of that jurisdiction
so there was no context there was no nothing
the first question I was asked by that police officer
was did it work
meaning the deliverance sessions
did they work
to which I responded would I be calling if they did
and then he laughed was like
fair play so it's just ridiculous
so I made that report and then
I was told
no charges could be brought for that specific one
only physical assault of a minor
statute of limitations
for physical assault against a minor
two years
so I would have been 17 when the statute passed
I would have still been living in the house
in a part of this youth group
that astonishes me so statutes have passed for that
I called another jurisdiction
they wouldn't even take my report
so uh
it was unclear first they said they would
and then
I asked if I could share about the other jurisdictions
you're like yeah
just send me an email
so I sent the email and then they're like
actually no we can't report this um
so literally there's no
there's no record of that report
cause they wouldn't even write it down
because statue limitations is passed
and then the other two jurisdictions I don't know of
so so much for that reporting
I also thought about civil reporting
so I consulted three different
nothing can be done there
statue of limitations has passed
which LED me to going public
and so I attempted to speak with journalists
I emailed 18 different journal journalists
and a few got back to me
one started working on a report for six months uh
was doing interviews
interviewed all the different parties involved
I had shared so many details and so many like
copies of my journals and all this kind of stuff
the report was set to go
and then two weeks before the estimated date
they got mothballed uh for a variety of reasons
some of which I don't feel comfortable saying
but there is hope that that can be resurrected if just
um a few more people come forward
because part of the reasons involved
needing more people to to come forward
even though I can say there were
four other people saying stuff
they just need a very specific kind of report to
help that story
so it's been constant fight to get any sort of anything
even just getting the word out
so
I started some social media pages that I'm hoping to
you know after the release of this podcast
release the name so that people can come forward
and of course social media is not as easy as it
this seems to get followers and all that
and we'll be linking all of that in a show note
so make sure that if you're
if you're listening to this
especially if you were in the Ohio area
check out our show notes
that you can see if you have any information
cause you know
you just never know
when you see a name or you see some of this stuff
like it could spark things in your memory
so and if it does
please reach out so we can connect the dots
because Alicia do you wanna
talk a little bit about what's going on
in that ministry now
yeah so this is a very
very very large ministry
they've expanded into over 1,000 churches
and they're in 35 different countries
that's the current tally rate
and then all over the nation
so this is internationally
they're in 35 different countries
and thousand different churches
and then they're all over almost in every single state
so these churches are
the ones that have been trained by this person
they use his material
so he literally sends out all the devotionals
the sermon stuff every week
it's available on his website
and yeah and so it's
who knows what's going on
in all those churches
leading cell groups and crusades and yeah
and there's there's code words like you know
deliverance
and then spiritual bondage and all this stuff
which that's
that's the language that was used because of course
no one's gonna outright say oh
we hold people down until they scream and you know
whatever but yeah it's still happening and it's
it's growing and it's a very large organization
we also need a journalist
or journalists to care enough to look into this
we have such a limited scope of what we can do
Jay and I are not journalists
so we are not trained in investigation
and all the stuff that's needed for us to fully
whistleblow this organization
but we would love to help connect
anyone willing to come along this journey
and support it however we can
so if you're listening to this and you're a journalist
and this is something where I'm positive
there has to be journalists out there
that are looking into especially charismatic spaces
I'm thinking like even with IHOP and Bethel
like there's an hill song
like a lot of those things are breaking right now
if any of you are listening and are willing to help us
please reach out and we will connect you with Alicia
and we would love to as a podcast as a platform
support you in any way we can to help get the word out
to protect other kids from experiencing this
not
only from the person who was pivotal in Alicia story
in her abuse that pastor
but it is very very concerning that these
methods are being trained into
youth pastors around the world
so if this is something that you can help with
please do and we will do whatever we can
as a platform to support that
yeah like you mentioned the
the root the fruit is rotten
and when the fruit is rotten there
there's just so much rot and I think it
I think this is is a broader topic
really does need to be explored by journalists
especially with the rise of like
christianationalism
and how connected christianationalism is to charismatic
Christianity there's a lot there
there's just so much going on
that we owe it to survivors like Leisha
who are bold enough to say
this is what happened to me
we owe it to her and to others
to disclose everything about these organizations
and to research them
and to provide the public the truth
to give them the truth about what's happening
this group works with ages 12
22 kids like young kids in this right
and the dude married a former youth group girl right
oh yeah yeah
so he proposed to the one when she was 17
um she said no
thank goodness so
he's now married to a woman that was also
in his youth group
I think there's like 14 year age difference
um and
and they got engaged when she was 18 or 19
so gross also
in his book that
he asked his former head pastor for guidance
and clarity on that but yeah
there's a there's a pattern here
yes and I also want to address
anyone in this situation that is listening
so I mean
Alicia's gonna post it you can if
if you are listening
and you were a party to this situation
you were a party to harming a child
you did wrong regardless of your intent
regardless of what you were hoping was happening there
you were wrong
and you need to repair that by helping her
bring justice to this situation
and that looks like owning what you did
what you were a part of
and speaking the truth to the proper people
that can help shine a light on this situation
you don't get a pass by just saying sorry
quietly in the night
you owe it to Alicia and kids everywhere
to make right what you were part of doing wrong in
after hearing Alicia's story for the first time
it felt like there was this heavy
immovable weight of despair on my chest
Alicia has been let down at every turn
by people who should have been advocates for her
and reported the abuse she adored
they tied spiritual language
to explain away the torture she carried in her body
from this abuse
denied her agency in her own story
physically assaulted her
and forced her to relive everything
all in the name of god
the physical and emotional abuse
Alicia endured is inexcusable
and evil
it is not righteous
it is not holy and it is not of Jesus
Alicia deserves justice
she is fought long and hard to regain her story
we need to hear her courageous words
and we need to hold those
who commit these horrendous abuses
cover them up or deny them accountable
we owe it to Alicia and every other survivor
for Johnny Harris I'm J
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