{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.166,"endTime":4.0,"body":"this episode was made possible by our incredible donors"},{"startTime":4.066,"endTime":5.666,"body":"their faithful support"},{"startTime":5.666,"endTime":8.1,"body":"allows us to continue the work of amplifying"},{"startTime":8.1,"endTime":10.666,"body":"the voices of religious abuse survivors"},{"startTime":10.666,"endTime":11.8,"body":"we committed early on"},{"startTime":11.8,"endTime":14.066,"body":"never to monetize any of the stories"},{"startTime":14.066,"endTime":17.7,"body":"so we rely solely on donations from people like you"},{"startTime":17.766,"endTime":20.466,"body":"if you value the work and are able to contribute"},{"startTime":20.466,"endTime":22.4,"body":"you can become a monthly donor"},{"startTime":22.4,"endTime":23.966,"body":"at the link in our show notes"},{"startTime":23.966,"endTime":26.133,"body":"another way to support bodies behind the bus"},{"startTime":26.133,"endTime":30.133,"body":"is by following rating and reviewing the podcast"},{"startTime":30.133,"endTime":31.466,"body":"it only takes a moment"},{"startTime":31.466,"endTime":34.166,"body":"but has a tremendous impact on our reach"},{"startTime":34.166,"endTime":37.233,"body":"thank you for daring to listen"},{"startTime":39.3,"endTime":42.9,"body":"today we are honored to share with you Jill's story"},{"startTime":43.1,"endTime":46.0,"body":"if you have not had the chance to listen to last week's"},{"startTime":46.0,"endTime":48.066,"body":"episode Stephanie's Story"},{"startTime":48.466,"endTime":51.1,"body":"take a moment now to pause and go listen to that"},{"startTime":51.1,"endTime":53.066,"body":"before we get into this episode"},{"startTime":53.266,"endTime":55.8,"body":"they are both sharing about their time"},{"startTime":55.8,"endTime":58.8,"body":"at this same church in the Chicago land area"},{"startTime":60.166,"endTime":62.133,"body":"with that I'm Jonah Harris"},{"startTime":62.133,"endTime":65.5,"body":"and this is the Bodies Behind the bus podcast"},{"startTime":69.333,"endTime":73.1,"body":"I am all about blessed subtraction there"},{"startTime":73.1,"endTime":76.8,"body":"there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Marshall bus"},{"startTime":78.3,"endTime":79.3,"body":"and by God's Grace"},{"startTime":79.3,"endTime":81.2,"body":"will be a mountain by the time we're done"},{"startTime":81.766,"endTime":82.866,"body":"you either get on the bus"},{"startTime":82.866,"endTime":84.466,"body":"or you get run over by the bus"},{"startTime":84.6,"endTime":87.4,"body":"those are the options but the bus ain't gonna stop"},{"startTime":89.966,"endTime":93.9,"body":"you either get on the bus to get run over by the bus"},{"startTime":95.766,"endTime":97.066,"body":"those are the options"},{"startTime":99.566,"endTime":101.0,"body":"put the bus back on stop"},{"startTime":102.966,"endTime":104.566,"body":"alright welcome everybody"},{"startTime":104.566,"endTime":107.166,"body":"back to the bodies Behind the bus podcast"},{"startTime":107.166,"endTime":111.433,"body":"we are thrilled to have Jill on today's episode"},{"startTime":111.8,"endTime":115.066,"body":"Jill is going to be sharing about her time"},{"startTime":115.466,"endTime":119.633,"body":"at the same church that Stephanie went to"},{"startTime":119.933,"endTime":121.766,"body":"Jill was also on staff at this church"},{"startTime":121.766,"endTime":123.233,"body":"in the Chicago land area"},{"startTime":123.533,"endTime":126.266,"body":"it was an Acts 29 affiliated church"},{"startTime":126.266,"endTime":128.5,"body":"so he's she's gonna be sharing about her time there"},{"startTime":128.5,"endTime":130.466,"body":"and her experiences at this church"},{"startTime":130.666,"endTime":132.466,"body":"Jill welcome to the podcast"},{"startTime":132.466,"endTime":134.133,"body":"thank you so much for having me"},{"startTime":134.133,"endTime":135.466,"body":"we're honored to have you"},{"startTime":135.466,"endTime":139.1,"body":"and we wanna dive right in to your story"},{"startTime":139.466,"endTime":142.566,"body":"I wanna talk a little bit initially about you know"},{"startTime":142.566,"endTime":147.733,"body":"this church seems to have a very family feel to it"},{"startTime":147.733,"endTime":148.666,"body":"initially"},{"startTime":148.866,"endTime":152.1,"body":"what LED you to this church and when you were there"},{"startTime":152.1,"endTime":153.5,"body":"initially when you started going"},{"startTime":153.5,"endTime":155.6,"body":"how would you describe the church culture"},{"startTime":155.933,"endTime":156.8,"body":"yeah so"},{"startTime":156.8,"endTime":160.8,"body":"I started going with my mom back in the summer of 2011"},{"startTime":160.8,"endTime":162.933,"body":"so it was the summer before my high school"},{"startTime":162.933,"endTime":164.433,"body":"my senior year of high school"},{"startTime":164.733,"endTime":168.0,"body":"and we left because we experienced some church hurt"},{"startTime":168.0,"endTime":169.066,"body":"at our last church"},{"startTime":169.066,"endTime":171.5,"body":"and we are looking for a fresh start"},{"startTime":171.966,"endTime":173.933,"body":"it was definitely a family feel"},{"startTime":173.933,"endTime":175.366,"body":"it was it was kind of hippie"},{"startTime":175.366,"endTime":177.1,"body":"there were a lot of college kids"},{"startTime":177.1,"endTime":179.466,"body":"it was very laid back and informal"},{"startTime":179.933,"endTime":183.466,"body":"very community focused it wasn't your typical"},{"startTime":183.466,"endTime":186.6,"body":"put on your Sunday best and shiny smiling"},{"startTime":186.6,"endTime":187.333,"body":"happy people"},{"startTime":187.333,"endTime":189.4,"body":"I think that's a phrase that we hear often"},{"startTime":189.766,"endTime":192.733,"body":"it was not that at all it was come as you are messy"},{"startTime":192.733,"endTime":196.066,"body":"broken a funny thing about it was that this"},{"startTime":196.166,"endTime":197.566,"body":"the building that we are meeting at"},{"startTime":197.566,"endTime":199.9,"body":"at the time was actually a former club"},{"startTime":200.066,"endTime":204.1,"body":"so it kind of had this like redeeming feel to it"},{"startTime":204.166,"endTime":208.3,"body":"I guess the other very very big piece of the culture"},{"startTime":208.3,"endTime":210.666,"body":"I would say is that it was presented as"},{"startTime":210.666,"endTime":212.7,"body":"there was no other church like us"},{"startTime":212.7,"endTime":216.233,"body":"and they in our town and that"},{"startTime":216.266,"endTime":219.2,"body":"you know we were doing things so uniquely and so right"},{"startTime":219.3,"endTime":221.066,"body":"because we got the gospel"},{"startTime":221.066,"endTime":223.5,"body":"and other churches around us didn't get the gospel"},{"startTime":223.8,"endTime":226.133,"body":"the pastor Jay actually married my husband"},{"startTime":226.133,"endTime":231.566,"body":"Steven and I in 2014 and then really in 2016"},{"startTime":231.566,"endTime":233.7,"body":"we committed to staying at that church"},{"startTime":233.7,"endTime":235.266,"body":"so there was kind of some gap there"},{"startTime":235.266,"endTime":237.366,"body":"but you know we were in college and growing up"},{"startTime":237.366,"endTime":239.766,"body":"did you meet your husband at this church then"},{"startTime":239.766,"endTime":241.9,"body":"no I met my husband in middle school okay"},{"startTime":241.9,"endTime":244.433,"body":"so we've been together a long time"},{"startTime":244.7,"endTime":248.5,"body":"so your husband came to this church with you"},{"startTime":248.566,"endTime":250.0,"body":"once you guys got married"},{"startTime":250.0,"endTime":251.5,"body":"is that kind of yeah"},{"startTime":251.5,"endTime":253.8,"body":"he kind of came a little bit when we were dating"},{"startTime":253.8,"endTime":256.166,"body":"and his take on it he liked it"},{"startTime":256.166,"endTime":257.366,"body":"he liked the preaching"},{"startTime":257.366,"endTime":260.1,"body":"he didn't like Pastor Jay as a person"},{"startTime":260.2,"endTime":263.4,"body":"but he liked the preaching okay"},{"startTime":263.666,"endTime":267.733,"body":"helpful so 2016 is when you guys like fully committed"},{"startTime":267.733,"endTime":270.2,"body":"like we're gonna be here at this church"},{"startTime":270.2,"endTime":272.566,"body":"you're two years into marriage right yes"},{"startTime":272.566,"endTime":275.6,"body":"yeah and around 2021"},{"startTime":275.6,"endTime":278.966,"body":"is when you decided to take a more formal position"},{"startTime":278.966,"endTime":281.666,"body":"within the church am I correct with that yes"},{"startTime":281.666,"endTime":282.7,"body":"yeah so"},{"startTime":282.966,"endTime":286.533,"body":"my husband and I got really close to Stephanie"},{"startTime":286.533,"endTime":287.7,"body":"and her husband Willie"},{"startTime":288.1,"endTime":290.4,"body":"and we are part of their community group"},{"startTime":290.466,"endTime":291.9,"body":"um and one night uh"},{"startTime":291.9,"endTime":294.333,"body":"during community group Willie had mentioned that"},{"startTime":294.333,"endTime":294.6,"body":"you know"},{"startTime":294.6,"endTime":298.733,"body":"like we're the next generation of church leaders"},{"startTime":298.733,"endTime":299.466,"body":"and"},{"startTime":299.466,"endTime":302.9,"body":"I knew that there was this need for a youth director"},{"startTime":303.066,"endTime":306.466,"body":"and so I texted Pastor Jay that night"},{"startTime":306.466,"endTime":308.7,"body":"and asked him what that would look like"},{"startTime":309.0,"endTime":311.366,"body":"and shortly after that I was brought on"},{"startTime":311.766,"endTime":313.266,"body":"was this a paid role"},{"startTime":313.9,"endTime":317.2,"body":"no it was not surprisingly"},{"startTime":317.2,"endTime":319.366,"body":"which I was paid yeah"},{"startTime":319.5,"endTime":320.5,"body":"yeah which"},{"startTime":320.5,"endTime":323.166,"body":"you know I was wanting it to be paid"},{"startTime":323.166,"endTime":327.3,"body":"I had a Newborn baby at the time and a toddler and a"},{"startTime":327.3,"endTime":329.233,"body":"at that point in time a full time job"},{"startTime":329.533,"endTime":332.233,"body":"a real day job and I"},{"startTime":332.6,"endTime":334.966,"body":"but I also understood that we are a very small church"},{"startTime":334.966,"endTime":336.466,"body":"pastor J from the pulpit"},{"startTime":336.466,"endTime":339.666,"body":"many times would say that not a lot of people tived"},{"startTime":339.666,"endTime":341.7,"body":"and the people that did"},{"startTime":341.7,"endTime":343.1,"body":"it was a very small group of us"},{"startTime":343.1,"endTime":345.9,"body":"so I wasn't surprised at one point in time"},{"startTime":345.9,"endTime":347.2,"body":"a few months after I started"},{"startTime":347.2,"endTime":349.7,"body":"Pastor J mentioned that maybe"},{"startTime":349.766,"endTime":352.8,"body":"he could figure out how I could get the 400 dollar"},{"startTime":352.8,"endTime":356.7,"body":"monthly volunteer compensation"},{"startTime":356.7,"endTime":359.7,"body":"but that was the last I heard of that 4"},{"startTime":359.7,"endTime":362.166,"body":"$400 and how"},{"startTime":363.133,"endTime":363.933,"body":"how many"},{"startTime":363.933,"endTime":368.166,"body":"how many hours did you invest into this role weekly"},{"startTime":368.166,"endTime":369.866,"body":"that's a really good question"},{"startTime":369.866,"endTime":372.1,"body":"so when I was brought on"},{"startTime":372.466,"endTime":374.2,"body":"because our youth ministry"},{"startTime":374.2,"endTime":376.7,"body":"it shut down because of Covid"},{"startTime":376.7,"endTime":379.366,"body":"there was really nothing in place when I was coming in"},{"startTime":379.366,"endTime":380.866,"body":"so Pastor J"},{"startTime":380.866,"endTime":383.733,"body":"told me that I could make it as big as I wanted"},{"startTime":383.733,"endTime":387.9,"body":"or as little as I wanted I could do no hours"},{"startTime":387.9,"endTime":390.066,"body":"I could do 100 hours"},{"startTime":390.2,"endTime":391.866,"body":"but he really left the ball in my court"},{"startTime":391.866,"endTime":394.433,"body":"which sounds really awesome"},{"startTime":394.666,"endTime":396.266,"body":"but I"},{"startTime":396.8,"endTime":398.3,"body":"I had a very overwhelming life"},{"startTime":398.3,"endTime":400.333,"body":"with two little kids at the time"},{"startTime":400.333,"endTime":404.6,"body":"and no official youth ministry experience"},{"startTime":404.6,"endTime":407.6,"body":"so I was kind of needing direction"},{"startTime":407.6,"endTime":411.033,"body":"some weeks I would say were as little as"},{"startTime":411.666,"endTime":412.966,"body":"including Sunday mornings"},{"startTime":412.966,"endTime":415.9,"body":"which is a lot or was a lot"},{"startTime":415.9,"endTime":419.7,"body":"I would say probably seven to 10 hours"},{"startTime":419.7,"endTime":421.766,"body":"but then there are other weeks that I would say"},{"startTime":421.766,"endTime":424.5,"body":"probably closer to 20 hours"},{"startTime":424.933,"endTime":426.066,"body":"and were you"},{"startTime":426.066,"endTime":429.9,"body":"I remember what stood out for me in Stephanie's story"},{"startTime":430.133,"endTime":431.6,"body":"I can't remember if it was in yours"},{"startTime":431.6,"endTime":435.166,"body":"to the serve your guts out motto yes"},{"startTime":435.166,"endTime":437.066,"body":"what did that mean to you when you heard"},{"startTime":437.066,"endTime":439.4,"body":"serve your guts out basically"},{"startTime":439.4,"endTime":440.533,"body":"that you were gonna step up"},{"startTime":440.533,"endTime":442.333,"body":"and do whatever needed to be done"},{"startTime":442.333,"endTime":445.5,"body":"and if nobody else did then it fell on you"},{"startTime":445.866,"endTime":449.2,"body":"I knew because we were close to Stephanie's family"},{"startTime":449.2,"endTime":452.866,"body":"and still are I kind of knew that going into it"},{"startTime":452.866,"endTime":454.466,"body":"that it was gonna be a lot of work"},{"startTime":454.466,"endTime":457.8,"body":"work which honestly put a lot of strain on my marriage"},{"startTime":457.8,"endTime":459.466,"body":"because my husband was like"},{"startTime":459.466,"endTime":461.466,"body":"what in the world you're not getting paid"},{"startTime":461.766,"endTime":463.933,"body":"and you're taking all of this time and effort"},{"startTime":463.933,"endTime":466.566,"body":"and energy away from our family"},{"startTime":466.766,"endTime":467.3,"body":"yeah so"},{"startTime":467.3,"endTime":470.833,"body":"I would say the biggest bulk was just the long Sundays"},{"startTime":470.933,"endTime":472.966,"body":"the biggest bulk was definitely on Sundays"},{"startTime":472.966,"endTime":475.566,"body":"so just running essentially"},{"startTime":475.566,"endTime":477.8,"body":"if I wasn't there stuff wouldn't get"},{"startTime":477.8,"endTime":480.0,"body":"the kids ministry wouldn't function"},{"startTime":480.0,"endTime":481.666,"body":"because I was the main person"},{"startTime":482.266,"endTime":483.533,"body":"and we are such a small church"},{"startTime":483.533,"endTime":485.566,"body":"that we are always short staffed every week"},{"startTime":485.566,"endTime":489.566,"body":"um so even if I wasn't technically scheduled to serve"},{"startTime":489.566,"endTime":491.8,"body":"I was still serving because we were short staffed"},{"startTime":491.8,"endTime":492.766,"body":"and you had a lot of kids"},{"startTime":492.766,"endTime":494.166,"body":"right at the church"},{"startTime":494.166,"endTime":495.533,"body":"yeah yeah"},{"startTime":495.533,"endTime":498.533,"body":"so I would say on average"},{"startTime":498.533,"endTime":499.9,"body":"the time that I was on staff"},{"startTime":499.9,"endTime":503.8,"body":"there were probably about 45 to 85 people"},{"startTime":503.8,"endTime":507.3,"body":"in regular attendance usually on the lower side"},{"startTime":507.666,"endTime":510.8,"body":"but at Max we would have 30 kids"},{"startTime":510.8,"endTime":513.633,"body":"yeah so out of those 85 people"},{"startTime":513.933,"endTime":518.266,"body":"so wild so like half of yes"},{"startTime":518.266,"endTime":521.3,"body":"the people that attended would be children"},{"startTime":521.4,"endTime":523.666,"body":"yes did you ever have official"},{"startTime":523.666,"endTime":525.6,"body":"like an official title"},{"startTime":525.666,"endTime":529.5,"body":"and what were your expected rules and responsibilities"},{"startTime":529.5,"endTime":530.766,"body":"did you have those"},{"startTime":530.766,"endTime":533.466,"body":"were you kind of just making it up as you went"},{"startTime":533.466,"endTime":535.4,"body":"yeah so my official title"},{"startTime":535.4,"endTime":538.1,"body":"which I gave myself because Pastor J"},{"startTime":538.466,"endTime":541.5,"body":"definitely was not going to make anything official"},{"startTime":541.5,"endTime":545.466,"body":"was youth director there was no job description"},{"startTime":545.466,"endTime":549.166,"body":"there was Pastor J was very against expectations"},{"startTime":549.166,"endTime":550.866,"body":"because it didn't align with"},{"startTime":551.133,"endTime":553.233,"body":"his view on what the gospel was"},{"startTime":553.266,"endTime":554.4,"body":"so yeah"},{"startTime":554.4,"endTime":557.0,"body":"literally no expectations at all"},{"startTime":557.0,"endTime":558.6,"body":"what do you mean what do you mean"},{"startTime":558.6,"endTime":561.4,"body":"didn't align with his view of the gospel"},{"startTime":561.4,"endTime":564.0,"body":"so to have expectations"},{"startTime":564.1,"endTime":567.5,"body":"meant that you weren't trusting Jesus"},{"startTime":567.533,"endTime":570.966,"body":"so it was very much preached from the pulpit that"},{"startTime":570.966,"endTime":573.5,"body":"to not have expectations in your marriage"},{"startTime":573.5,"endTime":575.266,"body":"and parenting and friendships"},{"startTime":575.4,"endTime":579.3,"body":"because our expectation should all be put onto Jesus"},{"startTime":579.4,"endTime":583.9,"body":"not onto other people so would you say that"},{"startTime":584.066,"endTime":587.3,"body":"was it okay for you to have the expectation"},{"startTime":587.3,"endTime":589.6,"body":"that your spouse would be faithful to you"},{"startTime":589.8,"endTime":591.5,"body":"is that allowed no"},{"startTime":592.133,"endTime":592.7,"body":"essentially"},{"startTime":592.7,"endTime":596.166,"body":"because we're all sinners and we're all gonna mess up"},{"startTime":596.166,"endTime":600.833,"body":"and so it's okay for us to have the expectation that"},{"startTime":601.4,"endTime":603.9,"body":"we're all gonna do bad things"},{"startTime":603.9,"endTime":604.266,"body":"and that's"},{"startTime":604.266,"endTime":606.766,"body":"basically the only expectation that's allowed"},{"startTime":606.766,"endTime":607.733,"body":"yes so"},{"startTime":607.733,"endTime":609.066,"body":"for example if"},{"startTime":609.066,"endTime":611.533,"body":"let's say Jay had given me a job description"},{"startTime":611.533,"endTime":614.4,"body":"with responsibilities listed out"},{"startTime":614.4,"endTime":616.366,"body":"and I didn't fulfill one of them"},{"startTime":616.366,"endTime":622.6,"body":"he was under the mindset that he couldn't rubber man me"},{"startTime":622.6,"endTime":626.833,"body":"or get mad at me because that's not showing me Grace"},{"startTime":627.566,"endTime":629.566,"body":"and we always need to show Grace"},{"startTime":629.566,"endTime":631.666,"body":"we always need to give the benefit of the doubt"},{"startTime":631.666,"endTime":634.366,"body":"and so if I wasn't there on a Sunday morning"},{"startTime":634.366,"endTime":636.533,"body":"while it was expected for me to be there every week"},{"startTime":636.533,"endTime":637.566,"body":"and it was very very"},{"startTime":637.566,"endTime":641.533,"body":"very encouraged there was no official expectation"},{"startTime":641.533,"endTime":643.966,"body":"because that wouldn't be living out the gospel"},{"startTime":644.066,"endTime":647.866,"body":"but you knew that you had to be there every single week"},{"startTime":647.866,"endTime":650.433,"body":"if that makes sense I would imagine that it's"},{"startTime":650.566,"endTime":652.366,"body":"you have this kind of feeling of like"},{"startTime":652.366,"endTime":654.3,"body":"you're confused all the time"},{"startTime":654.733,"endTime":657.4,"body":"but then you also don't wanna let him down"},{"startTime":657.4,"endTime":659.366,"body":"is that is that a fair assessment"},{"startTime":659.366,"endTime":660.766,"body":"definitely yeah"},{"startTime":660.766,"endTime":665.266,"body":"and when if there were sin issues with people at church"},{"startTime":665.933,"endTime":668.5,"body":"it was never like okay"},{"startTime":668.5,"endTime":671.1,"body":"well let's address this sin issue with this person"},{"startTime":671.1,"endTime":673.033,"body":"it would be well"},{"startTime":673.166,"endTime":678.4,"body":"how did the other person affect this person to sin"},{"startTime":678.4,"endTime":684.033,"body":"or play into it I think this might be a good time to"},{"startTime":684.466,"endTime":687.666,"body":"move towards what the staff dynamic was"},{"startTime":687.933,"endTime":690.9,"body":"because as him as a leader"},{"startTime":691.466,"endTime":693.4,"body":"does this mean that you weren't"},{"startTime":693.666,"endTime":696.033,"body":"allowed to have expectations of him"},{"startTime":696.333,"endTime":697.766,"body":"in that role"},{"startTime":698.333,"endTime":701.033,"body":"how did that play out in a staff dynamic"},{"startTime":701.533,"endTime":705.466,"body":"yeah so Pastor J was a big talker"},{"startTime":705.466,"endTime":706.7,"body":"he would um"},{"startTime":706.7,"endTime":709.5,"body":"say a lot of things make a lot of plans"},{"startTime":709.5,"endTime":713.466,"body":"um have these big visionary ideas"},{"startTime":713.6,"endTime":715.666,"body":"but then there was very little follow through"},{"startTime":715.666,"endTime":719.766,"body":"so when I came on staff there were two other elders"},{"startTime":720.1,"endTime":722.466,"body":"however to my knowledge"},{"startTime":722.966,"endTime":726.2,"body":"I don't know how involved they were"},{"startTime":726.2,"endTime":726.733,"body":"to my knowledge"},{"startTime":726.733,"endTime":728.6,"body":"I don't think there was really any involvement"},{"startTime":728.6,"endTime":732.133,"body":"because it all came back to Pastor J being in charge"},{"startTime":732.133,"endTime":734.233,"body":"my husband actually used to joke that"},{"startTime":734.5,"endTime":737.1,"body":"myself and some of the church members saw"},{"startTime":737.1,"endTime":741.833,"body":"Pastor J is King J instead of king Jesus being king"},{"startTime":741.966,"endTime":745.966,"body":"and so with staff it definitely felt strained"},{"startTime":745.966,"endTime":751.2,"body":"because there were the people that saw Pastor J"},{"startTime":751.2,"endTime":752.8,"body":"as King J"},{"startTime":753.2,"endTime":755.833,"body":"without really realizing that's how they saw him"},{"startTime":756.066,"endTime":757.4,"body":"and I was on that side"},{"startTime":757.466,"endTime":760.133,"body":"and then there were the people that um"},{"startTime":760.133,"endTime":762.4,"body":"saw more realistic version of Jay"},{"startTime":762.5,"endTime":763.166,"body":"knew that"},{"startTime":763.166,"endTime":766.0,"body":"their hands were kind of tied in a lot of situations"},{"startTime":766.3,"endTime":771.7,"body":"and what was Pastor Jay like in that setting"},{"startTime":772.0,"endTime":774.566,"body":"like how often did you guys have staff meetings"},{"startTime":774.566,"endTime":776.9,"body":"did you have any one on one meetings with him"},{"startTime":776.9,"endTime":778.133,"body":"what was that like"},{"startTime":778.133,"endTime":781.0,"body":"working in that space with Pastor Jay"},{"startTime":781.266,"endTime":784.3,"body":"I never had any one on one meetings with him"},{"startTime":784.333,"endTime":786.566,"body":"staff meetings were about once a week"},{"startTime":786.566,"endTime":789.5,"body":"it was elders when I first came on staff"},{"startTime":789.5,"endTime":791.366,"body":"one elder attended those meetings"},{"startTime":791.366,"endTime":794.9,"body":"because he had another role in our church as well"},{"startTime":795.7,"endTime":797.566,"body":"but the other elder did not attend"},{"startTime":797.866,"endTime":802.666,"body":"and then shortly after no elders attended besides Jay"},{"startTime":802.866,"endTime":807.566,"body":"so it was just the deacons and it was very Jay LED"},{"startTime":807.566,"endTime":808.833,"body":"Jay directed"},{"startTime":808.966,"endTime":815.1,"body":"and if there was any pushback on an idea or such"},{"startTime":815.3,"endTime":818.5,"body":"he wasn't direct in shutting things down"},{"startTime":818.5,"endTime":820.833,"body":"he had the very manipulated"},{"startTime":821.533,"endTime":824.8,"body":"roundabout way of getting people to agree with him"},{"startTime":824.8,"endTime":828.966,"body":"this might be hard but maybe we can take a stab at it"},{"startTime":828.966,"endTime":832.6,"body":"can you give us an example of that"},{"startTime":832.6,"endTime":834.933,"body":"I know that can be really hard when it's manipulative"},{"startTime":834.933,"endTime":838.9,"body":"or like kind of like confusing how he got his way"},{"startTime":839.133,"endTime":840.866,"body":"but do you have anything you can think of"},{"startTime":840.866,"endTime":842.5,"body":"or a situation you can pinpoint"},{"startTime":842.5,"endTime":844.6,"body":"where you watched that happen"},{"startTime":844.6,"endTime":846.666,"body":"now that you look back yeah"},{"startTime":846.7,"endTime":848.9,"body":"I think the one that comes to mind"},{"startTime":849.166,"endTime":850.733,"body":"easiest would be"},{"startTime":850.733,"endTime":853.0,"body":"the church for kids that we had started"},{"startTime":853.333,"endTime":855.9,"body":"so for the first six months"},{"startTime":856.533,"endTime":859.033,"body":"like I said I didn't have any direction from Jay"},{"startTime":859.333,"endTime":863.1,"body":"and then we actually had a dinner with Jay's family"},{"startTime":863.1,"endTime":866.466,"body":"and Stephanie's family and at that dinner"},{"startTime":866.766,"endTime":868.366,"body":"Jay mentioned"},{"startTime":868.7,"endTime":871.666,"body":"maybe we should have a mini church service for"},{"startTime":872.3,"endTime":874.666,"body":"kids during big church service"},{"startTime":875.0,"endTime":878.7,"body":"and that idea fully came from Jay"},{"startTime":878.7,"endTime":881.0,"body":"it had nothing not that I was against it"},{"startTime":881.0,"endTime":884.233,"body":"but it was not my idea or my creation"},{"startTime":884.5,"endTime":885.766,"body":"and so then"},{"startTime":886.066,"endTime":888.933,"body":"when he presented that idea to the rest of staff"},{"startTime":888.933,"endTime":890.233,"body":"and to the church"},{"startTime":890.5,"endTime":893.433,"body":"he presented it as this was Jill's idea"},{"startTime":893.8,"endTime":894.866,"body":"and so"},{"startTime":895.4,"endTime":897.366,"body":"you know you could look at that and say okay"},{"startTime":897.366,"endTime":898.266,"body":"well he gave you credit"},{"startTime":898.266,"endTime":900.266,"body":"that's great he's lifting you up"},{"startTime":900.466,"endTime":903.866,"body":"but really looking back with 20"},{"startTime":903.866,"endTime":907.366,"body":"20 hindsight I think it was a way of him"},{"startTime":908.166,"endTime":910.7,"body":"him not wanting to come off as controlling"},{"startTime":910.866,"endTime":912.266,"body":"and so if he had just said"},{"startTime":912.266,"endTime":912.7,"body":"hey Jill"},{"startTime":912.7,"endTime":914.033,"body":"we're gonna do this"},{"startTime":914.533,"endTime":916.666,"body":"and this is my idea and this is what I think"},{"startTime":916.666,"endTime":918.1,"body":"these are all the things that we need to do"},{"startTime":918.1,"endTime":921.6,"body":"instead he like slips it in at this get together dinner"},{"startTime":921.6,"endTime":922.333,"body":"like oh yeah"},{"startTime":922.333,"endTime":923.5,"body":"we should do this"},{"startTime":923.5,"endTime":926.533,"body":"and because if he had come up with the idea"},{"startTime":926.533,"endTime":928.366,"body":"and he had spearheaded it"},{"startTime":928.6,"endTime":930.066,"body":"other members of our church"},{"startTime":930.066,"endTime":932.333,"body":"would have definitely seen that as controlling"},{"startTime":932.333,"endTime":933.8,"body":"and domineering"},{"startTime":934.466,"endTime":936.666,"body":"so he went about it in a roundabout way"},{"startTime":936.666,"endTime":937.666,"body":"if that makes sense"},{"startTime":937.666,"endTime":940.433,"body":"would you say that that was just common"},{"startTime":940.566,"endTime":945.1,"body":"how things happened is everything was roundabout"},{"startTime":945.566,"endTime":948.2,"body":"and what it sounds like to me is he just didn't really"},{"startTime":948.4,"endTime":950.566,"body":"and I think we mentioned this in Stephanie's story"},{"startTime":950.566,"endTime":954.0,"body":"that he didn't really want to be the one responsible"},{"startTime":954.666,"endTime":955.5,"body":"for yes"},{"startTime":955.966,"endTime":959.933,"body":"yes so even though that seems pretty harmless"},{"startTime":959.933,"endTime":963.233,"body":"and probably was fairly harmless in general"},{"startTime":963.666,"endTime":965.1,"body":"it's just this lack of"},{"startTime":965.1,"endTime":968.7,"body":"wanting to be responsible for any decisions"},{"startTime":968.766,"endTime":970.4,"body":"yes and then if"},{"startTime":970.6,"endTime":972.866,"body":"let's say I did have a youth idea"},{"startTime":972.933,"endTime":974.366,"body":"and if he didn't agree with it"},{"startTime":974.366,"endTime":976.0,"body":"he wouldn't tell me no"},{"startTime":976.4,"endTime":978.8,"body":"he would pretend to be okay with it"},{"startTime":978.8,"endTime":981.1,"body":"but then there would never be any follow through"},{"startTime":981.1,"endTime":982.4,"body":"of what I needed from him"},{"startTime":982.4,"endTime":984.5,"body":"like I never had a budget for"},{"startTime":984.766,"endTime":986.4,"body":"we called it Gospel Youth"},{"startTime":986.6,"endTime":989.666,"body":"so he would never tell me no"},{"startTime":989.666,"endTime":992.666,"body":"but he would just never follow through so that X"},{"startTime":992.666,"endTime":994.3,"body":"y and Z could play out"},{"startTime":994.566,"endTime":997.7,"body":"unless it was his idea and he wanted it to play out"},{"startTime":997.9,"endTime":999.3,"body":"it's very confusing"},{"startTime":999.3,"endTime":1002.2,"body":"cause you don't ever really know which way is up"},{"startTime":1002.3,"endTime":1004.6,"body":"especially if you're serving your guts out"},{"startTime":1004.6,"endTime":1007.933,"body":"and doing everything but even if you're doing that"},{"startTime":1007.933,"endTime":1009.466,"body":"you don't really have direction"},{"startTime":1009.566,"endTime":1011.733,"body":"and then he's also changes his mind"},{"startTime":1011.733,"endTime":1012.566,"body":"and you may not know if he"},{"startTime":1012.566,"endTime":1014.8,"body":"changes his mind it's almost"},{"startTime":1014.8,"endTime":1016.966,"body":"it's like you're walking on eggshells"},{"startTime":1017.1,"endTime":1021.3,"body":"and trying to read his mind to see what he wants to do"},{"startTime":1021.7,"endTime":1023.533,"body":"which is not a good place to be"},{"startTime":1023.533,"endTime":1028.566,"body":"yeah even as much as picking who the men for the church"},{"startTime":1028.566,"endTime":1030.2,"body":"for kids should be preaching"},{"startTime":1030.366,"endTime":1033.3,"body":"it was like he wanted me to figure out"},{"startTime":1033.3,"endTime":1035.233,"body":"what names he had in his head"},{"startTime":1035.8,"endTime":1037.5,"body":"to ask them eventually"},{"startTime":1037.5,"endTime":1040.366,"body":"he did end up giving me a small list"},{"startTime":1040.366,"endTime":1042.333,"body":"but it was like if I mentioned someone"},{"startTime":1042.333,"endTime":1043.7,"body":"he would be like well"},{"startTime":1044.5,"endTime":1046.266,"body":"maybe let's see"},{"startTime":1046.333,"endTime":1049.666,"body":"let's give it some time and it was very laid back"},{"startTime":1049.666,"endTime":1052.233,"body":"he was never super direct"},{"startTime":1052.8,"endTime":1054.666,"body":"so he came off like a nice guy cause"},{"startTime":1054.666,"endTime":1055.1,"body":"you know"},{"startTime":1055.1,"endTime":1058.4,"body":"he essentially on the outside agreed with everything"},{"startTime":1058.4,"endTime":1060.966,"body":"but then never actually followed through on things"},{"startTime":1060.966,"endTime":1065.8,"body":"was he open to feedback or questions or even criticism"},{"startTime":1065.8,"endTime":1068.266,"body":"what did that look like absolutely not"},{"startTime":1068.266,"endTime":1072.666,"body":"so the best example that I have for that is"},{"startTime":1072.733,"endTime":1076.5,"body":"from March 2023 he preached a sermon"},{"startTime":1076.866,"endTime":1077.933,"body":"and I've since gone back"},{"startTime":1077.933,"endTime":1079.6,"body":"and listened to it a couple of times"},{"startTime":1079.6,"endTime":1083.933,"body":"it is very chaotic his preaching"},{"startTime":1083.933,"endTime":1086.0,"body":"it's not it wasn't how he typically preached"},{"startTime":1086.0,"endTime":1087.566,"body":"which I'm wondering if some"},{"startTime":1087.566,"endTime":1089.1,"body":"behind the scenes"},{"startTime":1089.1,"endTime":1090.866,"body":"things started to happen at that point"},{"startTime":1090.866,"endTime":1093.9,"body":"but during that sermon he essentially preached"},{"startTime":1094.166,"endTime":1095.266,"body":"and this is up for debate"},{"startTime":1095.266,"endTime":1097.533,"body":"if it was accidental or on purpose"},{"startTime":1097.533,"endTime":1099.366,"body":"that you could lose your salvation"},{"startTime":1100.2,"endTime":1100.6,"body":"and so"},{"startTime":1100.6,"endTime":1103.3,"body":"that week between that Sunday and the next Sunday"},{"startTime":1103.3,"endTime":1105.533,"body":"he got a lot of phone calls and emails and texts"},{"startTime":1105.533,"endTime":1107.133,"body":"and people were freaking out"},{"startTime":1107.133,"endTime":1108.8,"body":"that they're gonna lose their salvation"},{"startTime":1108.8,"endTime":1111.966,"body":"so he was complaining to staff about that"},{"startTime":1111.966,"endTime":1114.2,"body":"in our staff meeting that week"},{"startTime":1114.2,"endTime":1116.533,"body":"I remember sitting there first off"},{"startTime":1116.533,"endTime":1118.8,"body":"I remember sitting there listening to the sermon"},{"startTime":1119.066,"endTime":1121.866,"body":"thinking all of the same things that everybody else was"},{"startTime":1121.866,"endTime":1124.8,"body":"but also thinking but Jay said this"},{"startTime":1124.8,"endTime":1127.066,"body":"it has to be true it has to be right"},{"startTime":1127.066,"endTime":1129.133,"body":"you know like he would know"},{"startTime":1129.133,"endTime":1131.966,"body":"like he would interpret whatever he's reading the best"},{"startTime":1132.0,"endTime":1134.0,"body":"and so then in the staff meeting"},{"startTime":1134.066,"endTime":1136.433,"body":"and when he was complaining about all of these people"},{"startTime":1136.933,"endTime":1138.9,"body":"I said you know what I"},{"startTime":1138.9,"endTime":1141.266,"body":"I was actually confused by that too"},{"startTime":1141.266,"endTime":1142.366,"body":"I didn't say that he was wrong"},{"startTime":1142.366,"endTime":1144.2,"body":"I just said that I was confused by it"},{"startTime":1144.966,"endTime":1146.933,"body":"and you could tell he got like"},{"startTime":1146.933,"endTime":1149.2,"body":"frustrated with me and still"},{"startTime":1149.2,"endTime":1152.0,"body":"didn't really explain where he was going with that"},{"startTime":1152.0,"endTime":1154.366,"body":"at that point so then the next Sunday"},{"startTime":1154.366,"endTime":1155.933,"body":"he gets up on stage"},{"startTime":1155.933,"endTime":1159.166,"body":"and he has this piece of paper in front of him"},{"startTime":1159.166,"endTime":1160.6,"body":"that he starts to read"},{"startTime":1160.9,"endTime":1164.666,"body":"and the start of it sounds so genuine and so apologetic"},{"startTime":1164.666,"endTime":1165.733,"body":"and so sad"},{"startTime":1165.733,"endTime":1171.0,"body":"that he caused so many people to freak out and worry"},{"startTime":1171.9,"endTime":1175.966,"body":"and then he keeps going and he essentially says"},{"startTime":1176.2,"endTime":1178.266,"body":"I didn't preach the Bible wrong"},{"startTime":1178.766,"endTime":1181.5,"body":"and if you misinterpreted it"},{"startTime":1181.5,"endTime":1186.866,"body":"that was your fault I have this letter of apology"},{"startTime":1187.266,"endTime":1188.6,"body":"and if you wanna read it you can"},{"startTime":1188.6,"endTime":1190.7,"body":"read it later and he crumpled up the piece of paper"},{"startTime":1190.7,"endTime":1192.466,"body":"and threw it on the stage"},{"startTime":1192.666,"endTime":1195.366,"body":"which was like how is that an apology"},{"startTime":1195.6,"endTime":1197.566,"body":"and he started to say"},{"startTime":1197.566,"endTime":1200.166,"body":"and I should explain what I actually"},{"startTime":1200.166,"endTime":1203.666,"body":"I should reteach what I taught"},{"startTime":1203.666,"endTime":1205.266,"body":"so that everybody can understand"},{"startTime":1205.266,"endTime":1207.833,"body":"and then he said but I'm not gonna do that"},{"startTime":1208.0,"endTime":1212.0,"body":"so as our teach our only teaching pastor that was his"},{"startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1213.5,"body":"he just apparently"},{"startTime":1213.5,"endTime":1214.6,"body":"didn't care that"},{"startTime":1214.733,"endTime":1215.9,"body":"a lot of us thought that we were gonna"},{"startTime":1215.9,"endTime":1218.366,"body":"lose our salvation how dismissive is that to"},{"startTime":1218.366,"endTime":1222.3,"body":"to be like people actually saying to their pastor"},{"startTime":1222.3,"endTime":1224.433,"body":"who is supposed to be a Shepherd"},{"startTime":1224.6,"endTime":1227.5,"body":"I have concerns about something that you taught"},{"startTime":1227.5,"endTime":1228.7,"body":"and having I mean"},{"startTime":1228.7,"endTime":1230.866,"body":"I had real fear as a kid growing up"},{"startTime":1230.866,"endTime":1232.366,"body":"thinking that I was gonna go to hell"},{"startTime":1232.366,"endTime":1238.5,"body":"yeah and having that fear and then your pastor to not"},{"startTime":1238.5,"endTime":1242.4,"body":"not apologize and almost make fun of you in a way"},{"startTime":1242.4,"endTime":1244.566,"body":"like demoralizing you"},{"startTime":1244.566,"endTime":1246.4,"body":"or diminish what you go through"},{"startTime":1246.4,"endTime":1247.966,"body":"and throw it down to the ground"},{"startTime":1248.266,"endTime":1250.066,"body":"I mean how yeah"},{"startTime":1250.366,"endTime":1251.4,"body":"and that's just since I mean"},{"startTime":1251.4,"endTime":1253.066,"body":"that's that's not a Shepherd"},{"startTime":1253.066,"endTime":1254.5,"body":"I mean that's that's"},{"startTime":1254.866,"endTime":1257.9,"body":"but I think that's that's a good way to describe"},{"startTime":1258.0,"endTime":1260.166,"body":"the type of culture that you were in"},{"startTime":1260.333,"endTime":1262.733,"body":"so yeah definitely"},{"startTime":1262.733,"endTime":1264.4,"body":"how did people respond with that"},{"startTime":1264.866,"endTime":1267.366,"body":"so some people did end up leaving"},{"startTime":1267.366,"endTime":1272.166,"body":"which typically if somebody left our church"},{"startTime":1272.366,"endTime":1275.8,"body":"we were never like explicitly told"},{"startTime":1275.8,"endTime":1280.2,"body":"don't reach out to them but there was definitely"},{"startTime":1280.2,"endTime":1282.4,"body":"the way that Jay would talk about them"},{"startTime":1282.4,"endTime":1285.266,"body":"it was very understood that we were to not reach out"},{"startTime":1285.5,"endTime":1287.7,"body":"so there were a couple of people that left"},{"startTime":1287.7,"endTime":1291.3,"body":"after that sermon and I didn't reach out until after"},{"startTime":1291.566,"endTime":1295.4,"body":"the fall of our church and then after reaching out"},{"startTime":1295.4,"endTime":1299.766,"body":"realizing how messed up I was in that situation"},{"startTime":1299.766,"endTime":1305.766,"body":"and how he had totally groomed me to agree with him"},{"startTime":1305.966,"endTime":1307.666,"body":"and to stand up for him"},{"startTime":1308.1,"endTime":1312.366,"body":"when he was actually wildly wrong and hurtful"},{"startTime":1312.7,"endTime":1313.1,"body":"but yeah"},{"startTime":1313.1,"endTime":1314.7,"body":"a lot of the time most of the time"},{"startTime":1314.7,"endTime":1316.8,"body":"people would leave and we would not reach out"},{"startTime":1317.066,"endTime":1319.6,"body":"and Jay would say things like well"},{"startTime":1319.6,"endTime":1321.1,"body":"they just don't get the gospel"},{"startTime":1321.1,"endTime":1323.0,"body":"they don't get the gospel like we do"},{"startTime":1323.066,"endTime":1325.333,"body":"you guys get the gospel and that's why you're here"},{"startTime":1325.333,"endTime":1328.266,"body":"that's why you're on staff is cause you get the gospel"},{"startTime":1328.6,"endTime":1330.466,"body":"anybody that left just"},{"startTime":1331.4,"endTime":1335.7,"body":"wasn't believing Jay's true gospel"},{"startTime":1335.966,"endTime":1337.866,"body":"would you say that"},{"startTime":1338.3,"endTime":1342.666,"body":"his response to that sermon was elevated"},{"startTime":1342.666,"endTime":1345.5,"body":"comparatively to how he would respond to feedback"},{"startTime":1345.5,"endTime":1347.566,"body":"or would you say that kind of"},{"startTime":1347.566,"endTime":1351.166,"body":"encapsulates a pattern of behavior for him"},{"startTime":1351.166,"endTime":1353.066,"body":"that's a really good question"},{"startTime":1353.066,"endTime":1358.033,"body":"from what I had seen it did seem elevated"},{"startTime":1358.366,"endTime":1359.2,"body":"however"},{"startTime":1359.766,"endTime":1362.466,"body":"nobody ever really questioned him"},{"startTime":1362.8,"endTime":1366.933,"body":"and if they did I never got their side of the story"},{"startTime":1366.933,"endTime":1369.833,"body":"it was there would have been an issue"},{"startTime":1370.3,"endTime":1371.866,"body":"something would have happened"},{"startTime":1371.866,"endTime":1373.633,"body":"the other person would have left"},{"startTime":1373.7,"endTime":1376.333,"body":"and Jay would have told us they didn't get the gospel"},{"startTime":1376.333,"endTime":1377.133,"body":"so"},{"startTime":1377.666,"endTime":1378.133,"body":"there was"},{"startTime":1378.133,"endTime":1382.066,"body":"never anything as public from the pulpit like that"},{"startTime":1382.3,"endTime":1386.0,"body":"but there was never anything as questionable"},{"startTime":1386.0,"endTime":1388.2,"body":"before that as last March"},{"startTime":1388.2,"endTime":1390.866,"body":"what is so interesting"},{"startTime":1390.866,"endTime":1392.7,"body":"I don't know if that's the right word to use"},{"startTime":1392.7,"endTime":1397.066,"body":"in all of the things that you're describing right now"},{"startTime":1397.533,"endTime":1402.533,"body":"is the fact that people weren't really questioning"},{"startTime":1402.533,"endTime":1405.4,"body":"or won't really sticking or criticizing"},{"startTime":1405.4,"endTime":1406.3,"body":"or anything like that"},{"startTime":1406.3,"endTime":1410.6,"body":"there was a culture of what he says goes"},{"startTime":1411.3,"endTime":1413.066,"body":"we don't ask questions"},{"startTime":1413.066,"endTime":1417.233,"body":"it's so fascinating that that culture existed"},{"startTime":1417.3,"endTime":1418.966,"body":"but it doesn't seem like there was like"},{"startTime":1418.966,"endTime":1421.333,"body":"these gigantic situations that happened"},{"startTime":1421.333,"endTime":1424.233,"body":"that LED to that it was just like an understood"},{"startTime":1424.666,"endTime":1426.366,"body":"part of the DNA of the culture"},{"startTime":1426.366,"endTime":1428.933,"body":"am I am I reading that correctly"},{"startTime":1428.933,"endTime":1430.7,"body":"yeah and I think that is"},{"startTime":1430.7,"endTime":1435.933,"body":"because over the 15 years of the church"},{"startTime":1435.933,"endTime":1438.8,"body":"as it was under J so many people had left"},{"startTime":1438.8,"endTime":1441.066,"body":"I mean that's why over 15 years"},{"startTime":1441.066,"endTime":1442.333,"body":"we still I mean"},{"startTime":1442.333,"endTime":1444.1,"body":"Covid obviously played a part of that"},{"startTime":1444.1,"endTime":1448.4,"body":"but we were still not averaging more than 85 a week"},{"startTime":1448.533,"endTime":1452.466,"body":"top number and so I think it was just like"},{"startTime":1452.466,"endTime":1455.866,"body":"oh so and so left and we never heard from them again"},{"startTime":1455.866,"endTime":1457.733,"body":"and I don't wanna be that person"},{"startTime":1457.733,"endTime":1461.733,"body":"so I'm not gonna question because or not even question"},{"startTime":1461.733,"endTime":1463.166,"body":"but like something happened"},{"startTime":1463.166,"endTime":1465.166,"body":"so like you knew that there was some sort of"},{"startTime":1465.166,"endTime":1467.966,"body":"altercation between Jay and that person"},{"startTime":1468.533,"endTime":1470.3,"body":"and so you just didn't wanna do that"},{"startTime":1470.3,"endTime":1473.366,"body":"because then were you actually getting the gospel"},{"startTime":1473.366,"endTime":1473.7,"body":"did you"},{"startTime":1473.7,"endTime":1476.5,"body":"really believe in Jesus and understand the gospel"},{"startTime":1476.5,"endTime":1481.166,"body":"if you weren't giving J the benefit of the doubt"},{"startTime":1481.166,"endTime":1484.9,"body":"that was like something that was thrown around like air"},{"startTime":1485.0,"endTime":1486.066,"body":"giving the benefit of the doubt"},{"startTime":1486.066,"endTime":1488.066,"body":"we are always supposed to give the benefit of the doubt"},{"startTime":1488.066,"endTime":1491.966,"body":"no matter what which clearly set us up for the ending"},{"startTime":1492.0,"endTime":1494.066,"body":"yet I think with these"},{"startTime":1494.133,"endTime":1496.5,"body":"with actually nine pastors in particular"},{"startTime":1496.5,"endTime":1499.0,"body":"there's always this air of like"},{"startTime":1499.0,"endTime":1501.066,"body":"when they are in the wrong"},{"startTime":1501.5,"endTime":1504.466,"body":"it's on us to give them the benefit of the doubt"},{"startTime":1504.466,"endTime":1507.066,"body":"but then when others you know"},{"startTime":1507.266,"endTime":1508.366,"body":"whether it be"},{"startTime":1508.6,"endTime":1512.566,"body":"they have questions about homosexuality or gender"},{"startTime":1513.366,"endTime":1514.9,"body":"gender related questions"},{"startTime":1514.9,"endTime":1517.266,"body":"and some churches it's race questions"},{"startTime":1517.6,"endTime":1519.466,"body":"they are immediately"},{"startTime":1520.066,"endTime":1522.166,"body":"you're immediately supposed to fall in the line"},{"startTime":1522.166,"endTime":1522.7,"body":"to be like"},{"startTime":1522.7,"endTime":1524.666,"body":"why are you questioning me about these things"},{"startTime":1524.666,"endTime":1527.166,"body":"you know the answer so I"},{"startTime":1527.166,"endTime":1530.566,"body":"what you're describing to me honestly from"},{"startTime":1530.566,"endTime":1532.4,"body":"you know John is experience on staff"},{"startTime":1532.4,"endTime":1534.4,"body":"sounds similar to what you experience"},{"startTime":1534.4,"endTime":1537.966,"body":"John when you're on staff with pastor age"},{"startTime":1538.2,"endTime":1539.366,"body":"and we've heard of it"},{"startTime":1539.366,"endTime":1543.166,"body":"we've heard other things from other Acts 29 churches"},{"startTime":1543.166,"endTime":1544.6,"body":"as well so it's definitely a"},{"startTime":1544.6,"endTime":1547.233,"body":"it's a cultural thing that Acts 29 has"},{"startTime":1547.366,"endTime":1549.466,"body":"something that I personally experienced"},{"startTime":1549.466,"endTime":1552.7,"body":"that I'm resonating with as you're telling your story"},{"startTime":1552.7,"endTime":1553.733,"body":"is like"},{"startTime":1553.733,"endTime":1557.933,"body":"I kept trying to figure out what was expected of me"},{"startTime":1557.933,"endTime":1560.866,"body":"or what my boss wanted from me"},{"startTime":1561.466,"endTime":1565.466,"body":"and the more I would ask for like clarifying questions"},{"startTime":1565.466,"endTime":1568.133,"body":"the more I felt like he was like"},{"startTime":1568.133,"endTime":1570.733,"body":"patronizing me when he would respond"},{"startTime":1570.733,"endTime":1574.566,"body":"like it was silly of me to even expect to know"},{"startTime":1574.6,"endTime":1576.9,"body":"what he was looking for"},{"startTime":1576.933,"endTime":1581.366,"body":"and so there was a constant dynamic for me of confusion"},{"startTime":1581.6,"endTime":1582.4,"body":"where it was like"},{"startTime":1582.4,"endTime":1586.033,"body":"I feel like I'm failing or letting you down"},{"startTime":1586.266,"endTime":1587.966,"body":"but you're not giving me feedback"},{"startTime":1587.966,"endTime":1590.566,"body":"for me to understand why I feel that way"},{"startTime":1590.933,"endTime":1593.933,"body":"so yeah that constant confusion"},{"startTime":1593.933,"endTime":1594.766,"body":"and actually"},{"startTime":1594.766,"endTime":1600.166,"body":"he had similarly would not commit to decisions"},{"startTime":1600.366,"endTime":1603.9,"body":"but then he also wouldn't empower me to make decisions"},{"startTime":1603.966,"endTime":1606.7,"body":"so there was a constant feeling of"},{"startTime":1606.7,"endTime":1608.666,"body":"I'm about to do something wrong"},{"startTime":1608.733,"endTime":1610.166,"body":"yeah definitely"},{"startTime":1610.166,"endTime":1612.066,"body":"and I think also a lot of times"},{"startTime":1612.066,"endTime":1616.566,"body":"with mostly every characteristic trait of Jay"},{"startTime":1616.566,"endTime":1618.133,"body":"it was always just brushed off"},{"startTime":1618.133,"endTime":1623.0,"body":"that's just how Jay is and I think when I was in it"},{"startTime":1623.366,"endTime":1623.866,"body":"I think"},{"startTime":1623.866,"endTime":1626.9,"body":"I had a huge blessing in my friendship with Stephanie"},{"startTime":1626.9,"endTime":1630.133,"body":"because she had worked with Jay for longer"},{"startTime":1630.133,"endTime":1633.1,"body":"and so when I would start to have these frustrations"},{"startTime":1633.2,"endTime":1635.166,"body":"she would kind of be able to talk me off the legend"},{"startTime":1635.166,"endTime":1638.1,"body":"like things that I wouldn't have tolerated in a"},{"startTime":1638.333,"endTime":1641.733,"body":"legit workplace I tolerated so much more"},{"startTime":1641.733,"endTime":1645.0,"body":"because it was just the way that Jay was"},{"startTime":1645.333,"endTime":1647.5,"body":"and so because I had Stephanie"},{"startTime":1647.5,"endTime":1649.666,"body":"and I had somebody to bounce things off of"},{"startTime":1650.266,"endTime":1654.466,"body":"I think I was probably less alone feeling"},{"startTime":1654.466,"endTime":1656.0,"body":"and less crazy feeling"},{"startTime":1656.0,"endTime":1658.2,"body":"because I had Stephanie who was like no"},{"startTime":1658.2,"endTime":1660.033,"body":"you're right that's just how Jay is"},{"startTime":1660.3,"endTime":1662.366,"body":"which was helpful in those times okay"},{"startTime":1662.366,"endTime":1664.866,"body":"well I feel like we've got the culture piece"},{"startTime":1664.866,"endTime":1665.933,"body":"did you wanna say anything else Jay"},{"startTime":1665.933,"endTime":1667.933,"body":"no before you go and all went down"},{"startTime":1667.933,"endTime":1669.666,"body":"I just want her to explain what"},{"startTime":1669.666,"endTime":1671.2,"body":"Kids Church was for our listeners"},{"startTime":1671.2,"endTime":1672.533,"body":"so the idea was that"},{"startTime":1672.533,"endTime":1673.666,"body":"it was supposed to be"},{"startTime":1673.666,"endTime":1675.333,"body":"for men in our church to practice"},{"startTime":1675.333,"endTime":1677.3,"body":"writing and preaching sermons"},{"startTime":1677.933,"endTime":1679.2,"body":"that never happened"},{"startTime":1679.3,"endTime":1681.4,"body":"so men did write and preach sermons"},{"startTime":1681.4,"endTime":1683.966,"body":"but they did not learn anything"},{"startTime":1683.966,"endTime":1684.933,"body":"probably other than"},{"startTime":1684.933,"endTime":1687.333,"body":"don't do what Pastor Jay did at the end"},{"startTime":1687.333,"endTime":1690.333,"body":"but the church for kids was essentially"},{"startTime":1690.333,"endTime":1694.933,"body":"literally a mini kids service for kids 5 to 11"},{"startTime":1694.933,"endTime":1699.6,"body":"during grown up sermon so there would be a prayer"},{"startTime":1699.666,"endTime":1702.633,"body":"worship songs scripture reading"},{"startTime":1702.733,"endTime":1705.8,"body":"and then 7 to 15 minutes sermon"},{"startTime":1705.8,"endTime":1708.1,"body":"that was supposed to be very basic"},{"startTime":1708.1,"endTime":1712.0,"body":"and at the kids levels Jay never once observed"},{"startTime":1712.266,"endTime":1716.6,"body":"we never recorded any audio to get his feedback"},{"startTime":1716.6,"endTime":1720.466,"body":"when there were issues or when I felt like"},{"startTime":1720.8,"endTime":1724.2,"body":"the gospel wasn't being preached correctly"},{"startTime":1724.2,"endTime":1725.866,"body":"as I understood it then"},{"startTime":1725.866,"endTime":1729.466,"body":"Jay would never engage with the man that was preaching"},{"startTime":1729.466,"endTime":1730.733,"body":"it was like okay"},{"startTime":1730.733,"endTime":1733.666,"body":"well I'll get to that or yeah"},{"startTime":1733.666,"endTime":1734.8,"body":"he's going through this"},{"startTime":1734.8,"endTime":1737.066,"body":"or it was always just like down the road"},{"startTime":1737.066,"endTime":1739.733,"body":"like we'll get to that and then we never got to it"},{"startTime":1739.733,"endTime":1742.1,"body":"but when we asked these men to preach"},{"startTime":1742.1,"endTime":1743.566,"body":"it was presented in a way of"},{"startTime":1743.566,"endTime":1745.766,"body":"you're gonna get one on one time with Jay"},{"startTime":1745.766,"endTime":1747.5,"body":"you're gonna actually learn"},{"startTime":1747.933,"endTime":1751.5,"body":"what goes into planning a sermon and um"},{"startTime":1751.6,"endTime":1754.133,"body":"how to keep the kids attention and all of that stuff"},{"startTime":1754.133,"endTime":1754.933,"body":"and that I would say"},{"startTime":1754.933,"endTime":1757.3,"body":"there was only one man that was preaching regularly"},{"startTime":1757.3,"endTime":1759.333,"body":"that got that insight from Jay"},{"startTime":1759.333,"endTime":1762.833,"body":"and that's only because he was Stephanie's husband"},{"startTime":1763.133,"endTime":1767.9,"body":"and he made it a point to go to jail"},{"startTime":1767.9,"endTime":1770.233,"body":"to ask for feedback and such okay"},{"startTime":1770.333,"endTime":1772.933,"body":"so the idea seems interesting right"},{"startTime":1772.933,"endTime":1776.733,"body":"especially if you're trying to do a sermon for kids"},{"startTime":1776.733,"endTime":1777.9,"body":"because kids church"},{"startTime":1777.9,"endTime":1780.766,"body":"or Sunday school programs and programs like that"},{"startTime":1780.766,"endTime":1784.166,"body":"I think are always looking for ways to engage kids yeah"},{"startTime":1784.166,"endTime":1787.733,"body":"with sharing the gospel or sharing parts of the Bible"},{"startTime":1787.733,"endTime":1790.9,"body":"so I that idea sounds great"},{"startTime":1791.266,"endTime":1793.9,"body":"but then there's not a lot of oversight"},{"startTime":1794.066,"endTime":1795.566,"body":"and then the men who are involved"},{"startTime":1795.566,"endTime":1796.8,"body":"don't really have a lot of direction"},{"startTime":1796.8,"endTime":1796.966,"body":"so"},{"startTime":1796.966,"endTime":1800.566,"body":"it fits into the theme and the culture of the church"},{"startTime":1800.566,"endTime":1802.866,"body":"where it's just not there"},{"startTime":1802.866,"endTime":1805.6,"body":"it's just left on your shoulders to kind of carry it"},{"startTime":1805.866,"endTime":1811.3,"body":"yes but I am a woman so I couldn't go and correct those"},{"startTime":1811.3,"endTime":1814.3,"body":"not that that was ever explicitly said to me again"},{"startTime":1814.3,"endTime":1817.3,"body":"but it was understood that I was a woman"},{"startTime":1817.3,"endTime":1817.7,"body":"and I was"},{"startTime":1817.7,"endTime":1820.4,"body":"not gonna go and give them feedback on their sermon"},{"startTime":1820.4,"endTime":1822.733,"body":"so they didn't really get any feedback"},{"startTime":1822.733,"endTime":1825.0,"body":"or grew because of it interesting"},{"startTime":1825.0,"endTime":1826.566,"body":"which is really sad actually"},{"startTime":1827.1,"endTime":1828.333,"body":"yeah but I think"},{"startTime":1828.333,"endTime":1830.733,"body":"one other thing to go in with the cultural piece"},{"startTime":1830.733,"endTime":1834.5,"body":"is that there was never any budget presented to the"},{"startTime":1834.5,"endTime":1836.866,"body":"congregation nobody knew"},{"startTime":1837.1,"endTime":1839.766,"body":"there was a short period of time that Jaywood's give"},{"startTime":1839.766,"endTime":1842.566,"body":"the total like weekly offering update"},{"startTime":1842.866,"endTime":1844.666,"body":"that was very short lived"},{"startTime":1844.766,"endTime":1847.733,"body":"and then after that there was never like"},{"startTime":1847.733,"endTime":1848.933,"body":"this is our church's budget"},{"startTime":1848.933,"endTime":1850.6,"body":"this is how much J is getting paid"},{"startTime":1850.6,"endTime":1852.766,"body":"this is how much staff is getting paid"},{"startTime":1852.866,"endTime":1855.466,"body":"there was absolutely no oversight"},{"startTime":1855.766,"endTime":1858.333,"body":"and everybody kind of just went with it"},{"startTime":1858.333,"endTime":1861.2,"body":"and if you questioned it you left"},{"startTime":1861.2,"endTime":1863.066,"body":"because you didn't get the answer that you wanted"},{"startTime":1863.066,"endTime":1864.3,"body":"but I only know that now"},{"startTime":1864.3,"endTime":1866.433,"body":"because of stories that I've heard"},{"startTime":1866.733,"endTime":1869.3,"body":"not because I was privy to that in the midst of it"},{"startTime":1869.3,"endTime":1871.2,"body":"and I think something like that"},{"startTime":1871.666,"endTime":1874.766,"body":"is much more common than people realize"},{"startTime":1875.3,"endTime":1878.466,"body":"and when you say that right now"},{"startTime":1878.7,"endTime":1881.2,"body":"everyone on this call are probably listening to her"},{"startTime":1881.2,"endTime":1883.533,"body":"like how the heck was that allowed to happen"},{"startTime":1883.533,"endTime":1886.166,"body":"that's wild but yeah"},{"startTime":1886.166,"endTime":1887.166,"body":"for those that are listening"},{"startTime":1887.166,"endTime":1891.2,"body":"that are not part of a smaller church plant"},{"startTime":1891.2,"endTime":1892.8,"body":"or smaller church congregation"},{"startTime":1892.8,"endTime":1894.966,"body":"in particular within I mean"},{"startTime":1894.966,"endTime":1897.166,"body":"what I can speak to is X29"},{"startTime":1897.266,"endTime":1901.166,"body":"so many of these congregations are like"},{"startTime":1901.166,"endTime":1903.2,"body":"pick yourself up by the bootstraps"},{"startTime":1903.2,"endTime":1905.933,"body":"like we aren't everybody's volunteer"},{"startTime":1905.933,"endTime":1907.4,"body":"because we don't make any money"},{"startTime":1907.4,"endTime":1907.766,"body":"and so"},{"startTime":1907.766,"endTime":1910.566,"body":"you don't think there's any money to even ask about"},{"startTime":1910.566,"endTime":1910.933,"body":"you're like"},{"startTime":1910.933,"endTime":1915.166,"body":"the fact that we are existing right now is wild"},{"startTime":1915.166,"endTime":1917.366,"body":"and like a miracle and you're not thinking"},{"startTime":1917.366,"endTime":1919.966,"body":"is there money that I should be aware of"},{"startTime":1919.966,"endTime":1923.466,"body":"that is like being allocated wrongly"},{"startTime":1923.666,"endTime":1925.033,"body":"like you really think yep"},{"startTime":1925.1,"endTime":1929.4,"body":"you're all just serving your guts out"},{"startTime":1929.4,"endTime":1931.966,"body":"not being compensated you think it's even"},{"startTime":1931.966,"endTime":1932.366,"body":"and I mean"},{"startTime":1932.366,"endTime":1935.9,"body":"even in our church situation where we saw the budget"},{"startTime":1936.166,"endTime":1937.733,"body":"a lot of people didn't realize that"},{"startTime":1937.733,"endTime":1941.166,"body":"like the staff salaries were in the budget"},{"startTime":1941.466,"endTime":1942.9,"body":"and they were all clumped together"},{"startTime":1942.9,"endTime":1944.266,"body":"and they didn't realize that"},{"startTime":1944.266,"endTime":1947.166,"body":"what that looked like was the staff making pennies"},{"startTime":1947.166,"endTime":1950.233,"body":"and the lead making hundreds of thousands of dollars"},{"startTime":1950.6,"endTime":1955.6,"body":"and the staff didn't even realize that to an extent"},{"startTime":1955.6,"endTime":1957.733,"body":"we didn't put those pieces together"},{"startTime":1957.733,"endTime":1961.3,"body":"so I say that all to just clarify for everybody or to"},{"startTime":1961.3,"endTime":1963.633,"body":"I guess put into perspective for everybody"},{"startTime":1963.666,"endTime":1967.766,"body":"that this is very common in these spaces"},{"startTime":1967.766,"endTime":1970.7,"body":"for questions to not really be asked"},{"startTime":1970.7,"endTime":1973.0,"body":"because the Assumption is there's nothing"},{"startTime":1973.3,"endTime":1976.366,"body":"yeah and Jay is the one that planted the church"},{"startTime":1976.366,"endTime":1978.266,"body":"so like who are we to ask"},{"startTime":1978.266,"endTime":1981.9,"body":"or question what he's doing with his church"},{"startTime":1981.9,"endTime":1984.133,"body":"because he this was his baby"},{"startTime":1984.133,"endTime":1986.466,"body":"you know which now you saying that"},{"startTime":1986.466,"endTime":1988.0,"body":"like how does that make you feel in your body"},{"startTime":1988.0,"endTime":1989.366,"body":"when you say that out loud"},{"startTime":1989.6,"endTime":1990.966,"body":"absolutely sick"},{"startTime":1990.966,"endTime":1994.433,"body":"and my husband and I talk all the time about how"},{"startTime":1994.866,"endTime":1998.1,"body":"never again hopefully by the Grace of god"},{"startTime":1998.166,"endTime":2000.066,"body":"we don't put our trust into man"},{"startTime":2000.066,"endTime":2001.4,"body":"and earliest I don't"},{"startTime":2001.4,"endTime":2003.1,"body":"I don't think my husband did as much"},{"startTime":2003.1,"endTime":2004.866,"body":"he's more level headed but yeah"},{"startTime":2004.866,"endTime":2007.5,"body":"absolutely sick for sure I'm sorry"},{"startTime":2008.166,"endTime":2012.8,"body":"well in the midst of all the chaos of everything"},{"startTime":2012.8,"endTime":2015.266,"body":"that was perpetually chaos"},{"startTime":2015.266,"endTime":2016.366,"body":"from the sounds of things"},{"startTime":2016.366,"endTime":2018.433,"body":"between your story and Stephanie's story"},{"startTime":2018.7,"endTime":2020.866,"body":"y'all decided to play into church"},{"startTime":2021.7,"endTime":2023.466,"body":"can you walk us through that"},{"startTime":2024.166,"endTime":2028.8,"body":"so Pastor Jay decided but probably didn't fully decide"},{"startTime":2028.8,"endTime":2030.9,"body":"because he's not actually responsible for"},{"startTime":2030.9,"endTime":2032.066,"body":"making any decisions so"},{"startTime":2032.066,"endTime":2034.0,"body":"somehow a decision was made"},{"startTime":2034.0,"endTime":2035.833,"body":"that you guys were gonna plan to church"},{"startTime":2036.1,"endTime":2037.966,"body":"out of nowhere 50 people"},{"startTime":2037.966,"endTime":2040.1,"body":"what did that look yes"},{"startTime":2040.133,"endTime":2041.133,"body":"what did that look like"},{"startTime":2041.133,"endTime":2044.2,"body":"what does that mean when you guys are so small already"},{"startTime":2044.266,"endTime":2046.7,"body":"walk us so we had planted yeah"},{"startTime":2046.7,"endTime":2048.6,"body":"we had previously planted"},{"startTime":2048.9,"endTime":2051.6,"body":"like one and a half churches prior to this"},{"startTime":2051.766,"endTime":2053.466,"body":"and it was always and this is"},{"startTime":2053.466,"endTime":2055.5,"body":"my understanding of how church plants worked"},{"startTime":2055.5,"endTime":2058.8,"body":"is that you a man is raised up"},{"startTime":2058.966,"endTime":2060.7,"body":"has a team around him"},{"startTime":2060.966,"endTime":2064.3,"body":"and then he goes and plants another church"},{"startTime":2064.733,"endTime":2067.866,"body":"not the lead pastor going to plant that church"},{"startTime":2068.133,"endTime":2070.9,"body":"so and I think that it's very interesting that"},{"startTime":2070.9,"endTime":2075.1,"body":"how separate he kept the one other elder at the time"},{"startTime":2075.1,"endTime":2078.066,"body":"and the rest of staff um"},{"startTime":2078.066,"endTime":2079.466,"body":"I'm wondering if he"},{"startTime":2080.1,"endTime":2082.166,"body":"and I'm sure that he did looking back"},{"startTime":2082.166,"endTime":2083.933,"body":"twist things to make it seem like"},{"startTime":2083.933,"endTime":2086.6,"body":"it wasn't just his idea to the other elder"},{"startTime":2086.6,"endTime":2088.5,"body":"but then to staff it wasn't just his idea"},{"startTime":2088.5,"endTime":2090.9,"body":"with his and the other elders idea"},{"startTime":2090.9,"endTime":2091.366,"body":"so yeah"},{"startTime":2091.366,"endTime":2096.466,"body":"we planted a church six minutes away from our building"},{"startTime":2096.466,"endTime":2098.4,"body":"our current building that was"},{"startTime":2098.4,"endTime":2100.7,"body":"because the people in that town"},{"startTime":2101.1,"endTime":2103.333,"body":"weren't coming to our town to go to church"},{"startTime":2103.333,"endTime":2105.7,"body":"so we needed to go to their town"},{"startTime":2106.2,"endTime":2108.6,"body":"six minutes away to plant this church"},{"startTime":2108.6,"endTime":2110.433,"body":"it was exhausting"},{"startTime":2110.533,"endTime":2113.8,"body":"and I honestly wasn't even that involved in it"},{"startTime":2113.8,"endTime":2116.333,"body":"because we weren't sure how big"},{"startTime":2116.333,"endTime":2118.666,"body":"the Kids ministry was going to be in that town"},{"startTime":2118.666,"endTime":2119.8,"body":"but overall I mean"},{"startTime":2119.8,"endTime":2121.466,"body":"people were just running on fumes"},{"startTime":2121.466,"endTime":2123.666,"body":"and the same people that were serving their guts out"},{"startTime":2123.666,"endTime":2125.866,"body":"in our town were now"},{"startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2129.6,"body":"also serving their guts out in this other town"},{"startTime":2129.6,"endTime":2132.4,"body":"it wasn't like the people from that town"},{"startTime":2132.866,"endTime":2134.933,"body":"were raised up and took over the church"},{"startTime":2134.933,"endTime":2138.0,"body":"it was us sending people over there every single week"},{"startTime":2138.0,"endTime":2142.7,"body":"to run church so our short staff teams in our town"},{"startTime":2143.0,"endTime":2146.033,"body":"we're now being spread to the other town as well"},{"startTime":2146.166,"endTime":2148.333,"body":"so for the first month last August"},{"startTime":2148.333,"endTime":2151.966,"body":"Pastor Jay preached every week in the other town"},{"startTime":2152.0,"endTime":2153.5,"body":"then starting in September"},{"startTime":2153.5,"endTime":2156.0,"body":"Jay came back to our town"},{"startTime":2156.066,"endTime":2158.533,"body":"a couple different men from our church took over"},{"startTime":2158.533,"endTime":2161.066,"body":"preaching in the New Town"},{"startTime":2161.1,"endTime":2162.3,"body":"that was very short lived"},{"startTime":2162.3,"endTime":2165.933,"body":"because of everything that transpired shortly after"},{"startTime":2165.933,"endTime":2168.0,"body":"but it was it was honestly just so weird"},{"startTime":2168.0,"endTime":2171.666,"body":"and then we had this huge cookout"},{"startTime":2171.666,"endTime":2175.133,"body":"block party thing in the New Town to kind of like"},{"startTime":2175.133,"endTime":2176.5,"body":"show them our presence and"},{"startTime":2176.5,"endTime":2176.733,"body":"you know"},{"startTime":2176.733,"endTime":2179.766,"body":"that we were there and they have a church now to go to"},{"startTime":2179.966,"endTime":2181.9,"body":"so it's like this big cookout thing"},{"startTime":2181.9,"endTime":2183.266,"body":"when I say big I mean"},{"startTime":2183.266,"endTime":2185.666,"body":"we're talking a town smaller than our own town"},{"startTime":2185.666,"endTime":2187.666,"body":"with 50 people in our church"},{"startTime":2188.066,"endTime":2189.366,"body":"Pastor J was nowhere to be found"},{"startTime":2189.366,"endTime":2191.033,"body":"also this cookout was his idea"},{"startTime":2191.266,"endTime":2193.033,"body":"so he is nowhere to be found"},{"startTime":2193.133,"endTime":2196.9,"body":"not cooking the food not mingling with the town people"},{"startTime":2197.133,"endTime":2199.933,"body":"and so a couple of us reached out to him like hey"},{"startTime":2199.933,"endTime":2200.6,"body":"where are you"},{"startTime":2200.6,"endTime":2203.066,"body":"what's when are you gonna show up to this thing"},{"startTime":2203.566,"endTime":2206.433,"body":"and he was like oh no no no no that's Deacon work"},{"startTime":2206.533,"endTime":2208.766,"body":"I'm an elder that's not elder work"},{"startTime":2208.766,"endTime":2213.1,"body":"so I'm not I'm not gonna be there or I'll show up"},{"startTime":2213.1,"endTime":2215.3,"body":"I think he ended up showing up right at the end"},{"startTime":2215.3,"endTime":2217.566,"body":"but it was very much that's on you guys to run"},{"startTime":2217.566,"endTime":2218.5,"body":"and I don't even know why"},{"startTime":2218.5,"endTime":2220.233,"body":"I would need to show up to that"},{"startTime":2220.4,"endTime":2222.566,"body":"even though he is the one"},{"startTime":2222.6,"endTime":2224.866,"body":"who wants to plant this church yeah"},{"startTime":2224.866,"endTime":2228.9,"body":"I think it was probably a way to like"},{"startTime":2228.9,"endTime":2230.9,"body":"get us all looking in a different direction"},{"startTime":2230.9,"endTime":2232.633,"body":"while he was doing other things"},{"startTime":2233.0,"endTime":2235.066,"body":"with this time I think that would be"},{"startTime":2235.066,"endTime":2237.266,"body":"probably a fair Assumption to make"},{"startTime":2237.733,"endTime":2240.8,"body":"based on the last part of your guys story"},{"startTime":2240.866,"endTime":2242.9,"body":"I do have a clarifying question"},{"startTime":2242.9,"endTime":2245.5,"body":"so this is coming from someone who's lived in"},{"startTime":2245.5,"endTime":2248.2,"body":"major cities so Phoenix and Los Angeles"},{"startTime":2248.8,"endTime":2252.3,"body":"but when you say like the town 6 minutes away"},{"startTime":2252.6,"endTime":2256.666,"body":"are your towns very um insular"},{"startTime":2256.8,"endTime":2259.1,"body":"so you don't do things outside of your town"},{"startTime":2259.266,"endTime":2260.4,"body":"so I live in Phoenix"},{"startTime":2260.4,"endTime":2263.133,"body":"but it wouldn't be weird for me to drive to Glendale"},{"startTime":2263.133,"endTime":2265.533,"body":"for church or Peoria or Scottsdale for church"},{"startTime":2265.533,"endTime":2267.1,"body":"it's a 20 minute drive"},{"startTime":2267.1,"endTime":2270.5,"body":"but people are involved in each other's different"},{"startTime":2270.5,"endTime":2273.066,"body":"is it a municipal what is that called"},{"startTime":2273.066,"endTime":2274.7,"body":"you don't even yeah"},{"startTime":2275.066,"endTime":2276.933,"body":"no that's totally normal actually"},{"startTime":2276.933,"endTime":2280.4,"body":"the town that we planted in is part of our town"},{"startTime":2280.4,"endTime":2283.033,"body":"school district that's how small we all are"},{"startTime":2283.4,"endTime":2284.966,"body":"and when I say six minutes away"},{"startTime":2284.966,"endTime":2287.733,"body":"I mean building to building six minutes away"},{"startTime":2287.733,"endTime":2291.6,"body":"so you're in this new kind of world with the"},{"startTime":2291.6,"endTime":2292.866,"body":"with the church plant"},{"startTime":2292.866,"endTime":2299.6,"body":"and then you receive a text message and I guess 2023"},{"startTime":2299.6,"endTime":2302.366,"body":"asking you to come was it to meet with Pastor Jay"},{"startTime":2302.366,"endTime":2303.766,"body":"what what did that look like"},{"startTime":2303.9,"endTime":2308.266,"body":"so Pastor Jay during September of 2023 was like"},{"startTime":2308.8,"endTime":2311.0,"body":"he was never very reliable obviously"},{"startTime":2311.0,"endTime":2312.933,"body":"but it was always like up in the air"},{"startTime":2312.933,"endTime":2316.0,"body":"if we were gonna have staff meeting or not each week"},{"startTime":2316.1,"endTime":2316.4,"body":"and so"},{"startTime":2316.4,"endTime":2319.133,"body":"I was texting him to make sure that we are having it"},{"startTime":2319.133,"endTime":2319.8,"body":"the next day"},{"startTime":2319.8,"endTime":2322.866,"body":"and he finally got back to me and he was like"},{"startTime":2322.866,"endTime":2325.933,"body":"there's some crazy stuff going on right now um"},{"startTime":2325.933,"endTime":2327.7,"body":"maybe you and me and Willie"},{"startTime":2327.7,"endTime":2330.933,"body":"and Stephanie can sit down this week and talk"},{"startTime":2330.933,"endTime":2333.466,"body":"and I was like what why"},{"startTime":2333.766,"endTime":2334.766,"body":"why are the three"},{"startTime":2334.766,"endTime":2337.033,"body":"the four of us sitting down and not like why"},{"startTime":2337.366,"endTime":2338.966,"body":"why aren't we talking with all of staff"},{"startTime":2338.966,"endTime":2342.8,"body":"and at that point there were two other people on staff"},{"startTime":2343.066,"endTime":2347.766,"body":"not including the elder and so that Thursday"},{"startTime":2347.766,"endTime":2350.9,"body":"I went over to Stephanie and Willie's house and Jay"},{"startTime":2350.9,"endTime":2352.9,"body":"and his wife met us there"},{"startTime":2353.066,"endTime":2355.566,"body":"and we had no idea what was gonna be discussed"},{"startTime":2355.566,"endTime":2359.066,"body":"or anything and Jay was very somber"},{"startTime":2359.066,"endTime":2361.066,"body":"and he essentially"},{"startTime":2361.066,"endTime":2362.366,"body":"said that he had"},{"startTime":2362.366,"endTime":2365.966,"body":"engaged in an inappropriate texting relationship"},{"startTime":2366.3,"endTime":2369.1,"body":"with another married woman in our church"},{"startTime":2369.2,"endTime":2372.166,"body":"he clarified that it was not sexual"},{"startTime":2372.166,"endTime":2374.733,"body":"or romantic in nature and that really"},{"startTime":2374.733,"endTime":2377.8,"body":"it was just the frequency of the texting"},{"startTime":2377.8,"endTime":2380.6,"body":"so it's very confusing he was very sad"},{"startTime":2380.6,"endTime":2382.1,"body":"he was very apologetic"},{"startTime":2382.1,"endTime":2384.3,"body":"he was very ashamed and embarrassed"},{"startTime":2384.3,"endTime":2385.533,"body":"and it was like"},{"startTime":2385.533,"endTime":2387.8,"body":"he was telling us that he had committed a murder"},{"startTime":2388.1,"endTime":2390.633,"body":"but he wasn't that's how he was acting"},{"startTime":2390.966,"endTime":2394.566,"body":"and so we very much were like"},{"startTime":2394.566,"endTime":2396.8,"body":"you know even if you had a full blown affair"},{"startTime":2396.8,"endTime":2399.533,"body":"like the gospel still covers that"},{"startTime":2399.533,"endTime":2401.766,"body":"and we love you and we're here for you and"},{"startTime":2401.766,"endTime":2403.366,"body":"you know you're not alone in this"},{"startTime":2403.866,"endTime":2404.3,"body":"and then"},{"startTime":2404.3,"endTime":2408.366,"body":"he shared that there was another couple in our church"},{"startTime":2408.366,"endTime":2412.566,"body":"we'll call them the Smiths because why not"},{"startTime":2412.766,"endTime":2415.566,"body":"and the wife at that time was on staff"},{"startTime":2415.566,"endTime":2419.2,"body":"so he said that this couple knew about this"},{"startTime":2419.2,"endTime":2422.6,"body":"allegedly inappropriate texting relationship"},{"startTime":2423.366,"endTime":2427.033,"body":"and that they were essentially out to get him"},{"startTime":2427.066,"endTime":2429.366,"body":"and they wanted him to be fired"},{"startTime":2429.366,"endTime":2431.766,"body":"and they wanted to get to the bottom of"},{"startTime":2432.2,"endTime":2434.266,"body":"whatever was not actually going on"},{"startTime":2434.266,"endTime":2435.466,"body":"according to him"},{"startTime":2435.8,"endTime":2439.833,"body":"and they were in the process of forming a task force"},{"startTime":2440.133,"endTime":2443.3,"body":"to investigate what was going on"},{"startTime":2443.3,"endTime":2447.033,"body":"and to eventually get Jay fired"},{"startTime":2447.366,"endTime":2450.266,"body":"so immediately this other couple that"},{"startTime":2450.266,"endTime":2453.266,"body":"we've all loved and had been close to"},{"startTime":2453.266,"endTime":2456.3,"body":"and we got super protective of Jay"},{"startTime":2456.3,"endTime":2458.5,"body":"because here's this man that"},{"startTime":2458.5,"endTime":2461.0,"body":"you know didn't actually do anything wrong"},{"startTime":2461.0,"endTime":2463.5,"body":"and they are out for blood"},{"startTime":2463.5,"endTime":2465.433,"body":"and they want him to be fired"},{"startTime":2465.9,"endTime":2469.133,"body":"and this is his church plant and this is his baby"},{"startTime":2469.133,"endTime":2473.566,"body":"and so is very confusing but it also lit a fire"},{"startTime":2473.566,"endTime":2475.766,"body":"he even said in that meeting"},{"startTime":2475.9,"endTime":2478.133,"body":"you guys can't even tell anybody that I was here"},{"startTime":2478.133,"endTime":2479.9,"body":"talking to you because it's gonna make"},{"startTime":2479.9,"endTime":2482.566,"body":"people think that I was trying to get you on my side"},{"startTime":2482.566,"endTime":2484.2,"body":"which is the biggest mind fuck"},{"startTime":2484.2,"endTime":2486.466,"body":"because that's exactly what he was doing"},{"startTime":2486.733,"endTime":2490.466,"body":"so manipulative there were a lot of tears"},{"startTime":2490.466,"endTime":2491.466,"body":"a lot of you know"},{"startTime":2491.466,"endTime":2493.1,"body":"will always be like no matter what"},{"startTime":2493.1,"endTime":2494.8,"body":"we're always gonna be there for you"},{"startTime":2494.8,"endTime":2497.4,"body":"and he said things like you know"},{"startTime":2497.4,"endTime":2499.0,"body":"maybe you know"},{"startTime":2499.0,"endTime":2500.466,"body":"depending on how all of this goes"},{"startTime":2500.466,"endTime":2502.733,"body":"maybe I'll just be preaching from my front porch"},{"startTime":2502.733,"endTime":2504.3,"body":"and you guys it'll just be us"},{"startTime":2504.3,"endTime":2505.933,"body":"like you guys can come over"},{"startTime":2505.933,"endTime":2507.133,"body":"and I'll just preach to you guys"},{"startTime":2507.133,"endTime":2509.0,"body":"because you guys are my church"},{"startTime":2509.166,"endTime":2509.7,"body":"cause all you've"},{"startTime":2509.7,"endTime":2512.566,"body":"ever wanted is to sit down in someone's front yard"},{"startTime":2512.566,"endTime":2514.366,"body":"and get preached at right"},{"startTime":2514.5,"endTime":2516.8,"body":"those are the things dreams are made of"},{"startTime":2517.1,"endTime":2518.1,"body":"yeah okay"},{"startTime":2518.1,"endTime":2519.666,"body":"Larry Duff yeah"},{"startTime":2519.666,"endTime":2522.166,"body":"he was so grooming us in that moment"},{"startTime":2522.166,"endTime":2523.533,"body":"and then afterwards"},{"startTime":2523.533,"endTime":2527.133,"body":"he group texted just Stephanie and Willie and said"},{"startTime":2527.133,"endTime":2529.166,"body":"you know you guys are the gospel to me"},{"startTime":2529.166,"endTime":2530.933,"body":"and he listed out our names"},{"startTime":2530.933,"endTime":2532.033,"body":"including mine"},{"startTime":2532.566,"endTime":2534.866,"body":"not my husband's though which is interesting"},{"startTime":2534.866,"endTime":2537.533,"body":"he used a scripture reference"},{"startTime":2537.533,"endTime":2539.533,"body":"and I love you guys and like"},{"startTime":2539.533,"endTime":2542.5,"body":"you're all I have and everyone else has abandoned me"},{"startTime":2542.5,"endTime":2545.333,"body":"and I'm so thankful for you guys"},{"startTime":2545.333,"endTime":2548.866,"body":"so then that Sunday was just super weird"},{"startTime":2548.866,"endTime":2551.2,"body":"he went to the other town to preach"},{"startTime":2551.2,"endTime":2553.433,"body":"even though he wasn't supposed to"},{"startTime":2554.2,"endTime":2557.2,"body":"and nobody really knew what was going on at that point"},{"startTime":2557.2,"endTime":2558.933,"body":"so he told us on a Thursday"},{"startTime":2558.933,"endTime":2560.3,"body":"on that Monday"},{"startTime":2560.933,"endTime":2563.533,"body":"the other woman reached out to me and Stephanie"},{"startTime":2563.533,"endTime":2564.366,"body":"and said"},{"startTime":2564.5,"endTime":2567.566,"body":"I know that you guys know and I wanna talk to you guys"},{"startTime":2568.133,"endTime":2571.5,"body":"and so that night we talked with her"},{"startTime":2571.733,"endTime":2574.2,"body":"and it was still all the same"},{"startTime":2574.2,"endTime":2575.933,"body":"you know this is blown out of proportion"},{"startTime":2575.933,"endTime":2578.066,"body":"nothing has happened you know"},{"startTime":2578.066,"endTime":2580.533,"body":"I'm so scared that Jay is gonna lose his job"},{"startTime":2580.533,"endTime":2582.666,"body":"and it was just it was still"},{"startTime":2582.666,"endTime":2584.866,"body":"it was very confusing but it was still like"},{"startTime":2584.866,"endTime":2586.566,"body":"okay so nothing happened"},{"startTime":2586.566,"endTime":2589.166,"body":"why are we still forming this task force"},{"startTime":2589.366,"endTime":2593.666,"body":"so the task force was formed and everyone on it"},{"startTime":2594.133,"endTime":2596.8,"body":"except for Stephanie's husband Willie"},{"startTime":2597.2,"endTime":2599.366,"body":"we're all painted as"},{"startTime":2599.366,"endTime":2601.766,"body":"people that had never really liked Jay"},{"startTime":2602.166,"endTime":2605.3,"body":"and that were all very legalistic in nature"},{"startTime":2605.3,"endTime":2607.2,"body":"and didn't get the gospel"},{"startTime":2608.066,"endTime":2610.3,"body":"and Jay actually asked that Stephanie's husband"},{"startTime":2610.3,"endTime":2610.733,"body":"Willie"},{"startTime":2610.733,"endTime":2614.133,"body":"be on the task force because he wanted an inside man"},{"startTime":2614.133,"endTime":2614.5,"body":"although"},{"startTime":2614.5,"endTime":2616.6,"body":"Willie didn't know that that's what Jay was doing"},{"startTime":2616.733,"endTime":2618.266,"body":"and then eventually my husband also"},{"startTime":2618.266,"endTime":2618.666,"body":"joined"},{"startTime":2618.666,"endTime":2621.9,"body":"but more so to focus on like the finance aspect of it"},{"startTime":2622.3,"endTime":2625.566,"body":"and then the task force decided to bring in"},{"startTime":2625.8,"endTime":2628.966,"body":"another local pastor was it all men"},{"startTime":2628.966,"endTime":2629.966,"body":"yes yes"},{"startTime":2629.966,"endTime":2630.766,"body":"all men"},{"startTime":2631.333,"endTime":2633.8,"body":"which is actually an interesting point"},{"startTime":2633.933,"endTime":2636.233,"body":"when the task force changed"},{"startTime":2636.266,"endTime":2637.866,"body":"how that all played out but yes"},{"startTime":2637.866,"endTime":2639.2,"body":"at this point it was all men"},{"startTime":2639.333,"endTime":2643.633,"body":"there were like six or seven I think total"},{"startTime":2643.866,"endTime":2646.666,"body":"so the task force brought in another"},{"startTime":2646.766,"endTime":2649.7,"body":"local pastor from about 30 minutes away"},{"startTime":2649.7,"endTime":2651.733,"body":"to kind of lead this investigation"},{"startTime":2651.733,"endTime":2654.2,"body":"and kind of give us like some guidance on what to do"},{"startTime":2654.533,"endTime":2655.966,"body":"the following Sunday"},{"startTime":2655.966,"endTime":2659.666,"body":"they requested that Jay come to church that day"},{"startTime":2659.666,"endTime":2660.466,"body":"so at this point"},{"startTime":2660.466,"endTime":2662.933,"body":"the church congregation doesn't know what's going on"},{"startTime":2662.933,"endTime":2666.4,"body":"so the task force requested that Jay come and"},{"startTime":2666.7,"endTime":2669.4,"body":"basically share what he has done"},{"startTime":2669.733,"endTime":2672.4,"body":"and ask for forgiveness and explain that"},{"startTime":2672.4,"endTime":2674.6,"body":"there's gonna be a restoration process"},{"startTime":2674.8,"endTime":2677.666,"body":"Jay showed up after church to this members meeting"},{"startTime":2677.666,"endTime":2678.733,"body":"which ironically"},{"startTime":2678.733,"endTime":2682.6,"body":"was the second number of meeting I'd ever been to"},{"startTime":2682.6,"endTime":2684.433,"body":"and at this time just so he said"},{"startTime":2684.466,"endTime":2686.5,"body":"all you know is that there was these"},{"startTime":2686.5,"endTime":2690.2,"body":"there was an inappropriate text thread going"},{"startTime":2690.566,"endTime":2694.1,"body":"that was familiar and the frequency was in question"},{"startTime":2694.1,"endTime":2695.966,"body":"right that's it yes"},{"startTime":2695.966,"endTime":2697.366,"body":"not that there was like"},{"startTime":2697.366,"endTime":2699.2,"body":"even an inappropriate text scent"},{"startTime":2699.2,"endTime":2699.9,"body":"it was more so"},{"startTime":2699.9,"endTime":2702.666,"body":"just focused on the frequency of texting okay"},{"startTime":2702.666,"endTime":2705.6,"body":"so the frequency of texting this other married person"},{"startTime":2705.666,"endTime":2709.233,"body":"and had you heard Matt Chandler's"},{"startTime":2709.366,"endTime":2711.966,"body":"from the stage confession about"},{"startTime":2711.966,"endTime":2713.3,"body":"frequency and familiarity"},{"startTime":2713.3,"endTime":2717.966,"body":"yet I hadn't which is so funny because for a time"},{"startTime":2718.666,"endTime":2720.766,"body":"Jay was all about Acts 29"},{"startTime":2720.766,"endTime":2723.2,"body":"and then I think when these stories started to come out"},{"startTime":2723.2,"endTime":2726.5,"body":"like with Mark Driscoll and all these other guys"},{"startTime":2726.5,"endTime":2728.2,"body":"he definitely toned down"},{"startTime":2728.2,"endTime":2730.166,"body":"how much he talked about Acts 29"},{"startTime":2730.166,"endTime":2734.133,"body":"and I even heard that one of the staff members"},{"startTime":2734.133,"endTime":2735.7,"body":"wanted to listen to the fallen"},{"startTime":2735.7,"endTime":2738.8,"body":"rise of Mars Hill while we were all still on staff"},{"startTime":2738.8,"endTime":2741.0,"body":"and Jay shut it down so"},{"startTime":2741.0,"endTime":2743.0,"body":"I didn't know anything about any of that"},{"startTime":2743.0,"endTime":2746.366,"body":"until after the fall of our church"},{"startTime":2746.366,"endTime":2748.1,"body":"the only reason I ask that"},{"startTime":2748.1,"endTime":2751.466,"body":"is because the verbage is identical"},{"startTime":2751.466,"endTime":2754.033,"body":"yeah it's not sexual in nature"},{"startTime":2754.333,"endTime":2757.166,"body":"it was frequency and familiarity"},{"startTime":2757.466,"endTime":2759.9,"body":"which is just interesting"},{"startTime":2759.9,"endTime":2761.9,"body":"I don't talk like that I wouldn't be like"},{"startTime":2761.9,"endTime":2764.333,"body":"there was a lot of frequency and familiarity"},{"startTime":2764.333,"endTime":2765.6,"body":"I'd be like look"},{"startTime":2765.6,"endTime":2766.9,"body":"we got a little carried away"},{"startTime":2766.9,"endTime":2768.1,"body":"and we were texting too much"},{"startTime":2768.1,"endTime":2768.266,"body":"like"},{"startTime":2768.266,"endTime":2771.266,"body":"it's just interesting to me that those words were used"},{"startTime":2771.266,"endTime":2776.366,"body":"yeah even when Jay was reading his letter to the church"},{"startTime":2776.366,"endTime":2780.9,"body":"it felt very disingenuine and forced"},{"startTime":2781.466,"endTime":2783.8,"body":"and I talked it up to at the time"},{"startTime":2783.866,"endTime":2784.366,"body":"it was just"},{"startTime":2784.366,"endTime":2786.733,"body":"because he had already said this so many times"},{"startTime":2786.733,"endTime":2787.933,"body":"he had already talked to like"},{"startTime":2787.933,"endTime":2790.3,"body":"the task force and us"},{"startTime":2790.866,"endTime":2794.033,"body":"and I'm sure his wife and the other husband"},{"startTime":2794.133,"endTime":2795.766,"body":"and so I just talked it up to his"},{"startTime":2795.766,"endTime":2797.2,"body":"like he said this so many times"},{"startTime":2797.2,"endTime":2800.0,"body":"he's exhausted they're trying to crucify him"},{"startTime":2800.2,"endTime":2802.033,"body":"the apology sound totally fake"},{"startTime":2802.6,"endTime":2804.4,"body":"that was the first time that he addressed"},{"startTime":2804.4,"endTime":2806.733,"body":"and the only time he addressed the church actually"},{"startTime":2806.733,"endTime":2808.166,"body":"before we move on"},{"startTime":2808.2,"endTime":2811.1,"body":"into a little bit more in depth of that meeting"},{"startTime":2811.1,"endTime":2813.3,"body":"and what transpired after it"},{"startTime":2813.6,"endTime":2816.266,"body":"you mentioned that he didn't include your husband"},{"startTime":2816.266,"endTime":2818.7,"body":"when saying you guys are my people"},{"startTime":2819.0,"endTime":2821.166,"body":"where is your husband at during all this"},{"startTime":2821.166,"endTime":2825.133,"body":"yeah he was definitely way more skeptical than me"},{"startTime":2825.133,"endTime":2826.3,"body":"and Stephanie and Willie"},{"startTime":2826.3,"endTime":2830.233,"body":"just because he had never liked Jay as a person before"},{"startTime":2830.566,"endTime":2831.366,"body":"and so he was like"},{"startTime":2831.366,"endTime":2832.4,"body":"something's not adding up here"},{"startTime":2832.4,"endTime":2833.7,"body":"something just seems weird"},{"startTime":2833.7,"endTime":2836.6,"body":"and so and Jay and my husband had never been close"},{"startTime":2836.6,"endTime":2839.4,"body":"there was no true friendship or relationship there"},{"startTime":2839.7,"endTime":2842.2,"body":"so after the finance"},{"startTime":2842.933,"endTime":2845.3,"body":"what the finances were shared with the task force"},{"startTime":2845.3,"endTime":2846.5,"body":"which at that point in time"},{"startTime":2846.5,"endTime":2848.966,"body":"I was privy too because my husband was on it"},{"startTime":2849.1,"endTime":2851.266,"body":"my husband and I had a lot of questions for Jay"},{"startTime":2851.266,"endTime":2852.433,"body":"obviously like"},{"startTime":2852.566,"endTime":2854.2,"body":"why are you making 100 grand"},{"startTime":2854.2,"endTime":2855.966,"body":"and there is nothing in the bank"},{"startTime":2855.966,"endTime":2859.3,"body":"um and 100 grand in our little town is a lot of money"},{"startTime":2859.3,"endTime":2860.9,"body":"um and goes a long way"},{"startTime":2861.0,"endTime":2864.1,"body":"and so when my husband and I sat down with Jay"},{"startTime":2864.1,"endTime":2866.3,"body":"to specifically talk about the finances"},{"startTime":2866.3,"endTime":2869.733,"body":"we didn't even care about this text thing at that point"},{"startTime":2869.733,"endTime":2871.066,"body":"Willie was also there"},{"startTime":2871.066,"endTime":2874.133,"body":"and Jay talked his way out of that"},{"startTime":2874.133,"endTime":2875.2,"body":"and then at the end"},{"startTime":2875.2,"endTime":2877.5,"body":"he told my husband that he should be an elder"},{"startTime":2877.5,"endTime":2879.366,"body":"of our church my husband"},{"startTime":2879.366,"endTime":2883.266,"body":"who has no theological training"},{"startTime":2883.266,"endTime":2885.533,"body":"he wasn't even 30 years old at that point"},{"startTime":2885.533,"endTime":2888.333,"body":"but because Jay realized that he had tricked my husband"},{"startTime":2888.333,"endTime":2889.533,"body":"at that point well"},{"startTime":2889.533,"endTime":2892.7,"body":"then we should put Steven in leadership because why not"},{"startTime":2892.7,"endTime":2894.333,"body":"then he has one more person on his side"},{"startTime":2894.333,"endTime":2896.566,"body":"so how did that come to be"},{"startTime":2896.733,"endTime":2898.866,"body":"you guys have this task this original"},{"startTime":2898.866,"endTime":2902.466,"body":"the OG Task Force bringing this other pastor"},{"startTime":2902.666,"endTime":2905.233,"body":"he apologizes in a member meeting"},{"startTime":2905.666,"endTime":2907.2,"body":"at what point does Steven"},{"startTime":2907.2,"endTime":2908.966,"body":"get brought onto the task force"},{"startTime":2908.966,"endTime":2910.3,"body":"within like a week"},{"startTime":2910.3,"endTime":2912.566,"body":"so this is after that members meeting"},{"startTime":2912.7,"endTime":2915.4,"body":"it might have been like the day before actually okay"},{"startTime":2915.4,"endTime":2918.7,"body":"because the finances were shared"},{"startTime":2919.066,"endTime":2919.466,"body":"like"},{"startTime":2919.466,"endTime":2922.1,"body":"the same day that the other woman reached out to me"},{"startTime":2922.1,"endTime":2925.0,"body":"and Stephanie so it was all kind of happening at once"},{"startTime":2925.0,"endTime":2928.266,"body":"so really the task force saw it as two issues"},{"startTime":2928.266,"endTime":2930.066,"body":"there was this issue of texting"},{"startTime":2930.066,"endTime":2932.0,"body":"and there was this issue of finances"},{"startTime":2932.0,"endTime":2934.4,"body":"that apparently Jay had no oversight"},{"startTime":2934.4,"endTime":2935.666,"body":"no accountability"},{"startTime":2936.3,"endTime":2938.766,"body":"was literally just taking whatever was left over"},{"startTime":2938.766,"endTime":2939.566,"body":"at the end of the month"},{"startTime":2939.566,"endTime":2942.133,"body":"as well as paying for like his car registration"},{"startTime":2942.133,"endTime":2944.466,"body":"out of the church's checking account"},{"startTime":2944.766,"endTime":2947.8,"body":"and so the task force started to investigate"},{"startTime":2947.8,"endTime":2950.533,"body":"and so they talked to multiple people"},{"startTime":2950.533,"endTime":2952.866,"body":"and there was kind of this"},{"startTime":2952.866,"endTime":2955.8,"body":"Steven and Willie we're like okay"},{"startTime":2955.966,"endTime":2957.566,"body":"there's nothing going on here"},{"startTime":2957.566,"endTime":2957.9,"body":"like"},{"startTime":2957.9,"endTime":2960.066,"body":"somebody else just needs to take over the finances"},{"startTime":2960.066,"endTime":2961.333,"body":"and we can move forward as a church"},{"startTime":2961.333,"endTime":2963.3,"body":"we can restore Pastor J"},{"startTime":2963.966,"endTime":2966.133,"body":"and then most of the task force was like no"},{"startTime":2966.133,"endTime":2966.2,"body":"no no"},{"startTime":2966.2,"endTime":2967.4,"body":"no no"},{"startTime":2967.4,"endTime":2968.666,"body":"something else is going on"},{"startTime":2969.0,"endTime":2971.1,"body":"and at some point in this"},{"startTime":2971.2,"endTime":2974.5,"body":"the other husband shared a screenshot of"},{"startTime":2975.2,"endTime":2978.433,"body":"the text message with the task force"},{"startTime":2978.5,"endTime":2980.6,"body":"and so obviously"},{"startTime":2980.6,"endTime":2984.0,"body":"Jay and the other woman had like an explanation for it"},{"startTime":2984.366,"endTime":2985.866,"body":"and so there was kind of this"},{"startTime":2985.866,"endTime":2987.9,"body":"are we gonna move forward and restore this guy"},{"startTime":2987.9,"endTime":2989.933,"body":"or are we going and like"},{"startTime":2989.933,"endTime":2991.3,"body":"put a bunch of changes into place"},{"startTime":2991.3,"endTime":2992.933,"body":"like they were by laws for our church"},{"startTime":2992.933,"endTime":2995.2,"body":"that nobody knew about nobody had read"},{"startTime":2995.2,"endTime":2997.333,"body":"nobody knew about but you know"},{"startTime":2997.333,"endTime":2998.266,"body":"we're signing covenant"},{"startTime":2998.266,"endTime":3000.266,"body":"saying that we're gonna be members of the church"},{"startTime":3000.266,"endTime":3001.7,"body":"without knowing the by laws"},{"startTime":3001.7,"endTime":3003.966,"body":"which is wild now thinking back"},{"startTime":3004.0,"endTime":3008.566,"body":"and so the task force basically was just like"},{"startTime":3008.733,"endTime":3010.233,"body":"we're done with this church"},{"startTime":3010.366,"endTime":3013.866,"body":"like this guy has done too much wrong and we're leaving"},{"startTime":3014.133,"endTime":3015.8,"body":"and so they invited"},{"startTime":3015.8,"endTime":3018.2,"body":"they opened it up for more people to attend"},{"startTime":3018.2,"endTime":3020.1,"body":"like this next meeting in"},{"startTime":3020.1,"endTime":3022.433,"body":"I think it was later in October"},{"startTime":3022.466,"endTime":3023.666,"body":"so you had that"},{"startTime":3023.666,"endTime":3026.6,"body":"you had an original meeting where he apologized"},{"startTime":3026.933,"endTime":3029.1,"body":"Task Force continues to dig in"},{"startTime":3029.266,"endTime":3031.233,"body":"and this is a second meeting"},{"startTime":3031.466,"endTime":3034.9,"body":"yes the task force had a lot of meetings"},{"startTime":3034.9,"endTime":3036.433,"body":"just with the task force"},{"startTime":3036.6,"endTime":3040.2,"body":"this next big meeting wasn't open to the whole church"},{"startTime":3040.733,"endTime":3042.0,"body":"but the task force was like"},{"startTime":3042.0,"endTime":3045.833,"body":"kind of open to allowing staff members to come in"},{"startTime":3046.2,"endTime":3047.3,"body":"um so prior to this"},{"startTime":3047.3,"endTime":3048.666,"body":"I hadn't been a part of it"},{"startTime":3048.9,"endTime":3051.966,"body":"some of the task force felt very strongly that"},{"startTime":3052.133,"endTime":3053.966,"body":"women should not be a part of it"},{"startTime":3054.333,"endTime":3057.2,"body":"but what was funny was that the entire time"},{"startTime":3057.2,"endTime":3059.6,"body":"they said that they were not acting as elders"},{"startTime":3059.6,"endTime":3062.0,"body":"they were just this committee that formed"},{"startTime":3062.366,"endTime":3063.366,"body":"however by telling us"},{"startTime":3063.366,"endTime":3064.966,"body":"that women weren't allowed to be in this meeting"},{"startTime":3064.966,"endTime":3067.066,"body":"they were calling themselves elders"},{"startTime":3067.066,"endTime":3069.766,"body":"based on how our church thought at the time"},{"startTime":3069.933,"endTime":3071.7,"body":"so in this meeting"},{"startTime":3071.7,"endTime":3074.333,"body":"that was like a special meeting with"},{"startTime":3074.333,"endTime":3076.5,"body":"not the whole church um"},{"startTime":3076.5,"endTime":3079.566,"body":"most of the task force left um"},{"startTime":3079.566,"endTime":3080.966,"body":"and said we're done with the church"},{"startTime":3080.966,"endTime":3083.5,"body":"you know we did what we wanted to do and we're"},{"startTime":3083.5,"endTime":3086.8,"body":"we're just done other people came onto the task force"},{"startTime":3086.8,"endTime":3090.266,"body":"and these new people were much more like Jay"},{"startTime":3090.266,"endTime":3092.9,"body":"supportive and like we're gonna move forward"},{"startTime":3092.9,"endTime":3094.166,"body":"we're gonna restore him"},{"startTime":3094.733,"endTime":3097.6,"body":"and so at the beginning of November"},{"startTime":3098.366,"endTime":3100.666,"body":"the task force at that point in time"},{"startTime":3100.666,"endTime":3102.2,"body":"was planning on restoring J"},{"startTime":3102.2,"endTime":3104.066,"body":"like within the next several weeks"},{"startTime":3104.2,"endTime":3107.566,"body":"the morning of that announcement"},{"startTime":3107.566,"endTime":3109.366,"body":"the other husband came forward"},{"startTime":3109.366,"endTime":3113.166,"body":"and had a lot more evidence of"},{"startTime":3113.3,"endTime":3115.566,"body":"way more inappropriateness going on"},{"startTime":3115.566,"endTime":3117.2,"body":"between Jay and the other woman"},{"startTime":3117.533,"endTime":3120.2,"body":"and so that was not shared with the church"},{"startTime":3120.2,"endTime":3121.566,"body":"later that night"},{"startTime":3121.866,"endTime":3124.866,"body":"the other woman asked to meet with me and Stephanie"},{"startTime":3124.866,"endTime":3127.1,"body":"again and she shared with us"},{"startTime":3127.1,"endTime":3129.2,"body":"that it was way more than just this"},{"startTime":3129.2,"endTime":3130.9,"body":"inappropriate text that was sent"},{"startTime":3130.9,"endTime":3132.6,"body":"and so while she was telling us"},{"startTime":3132.6,"endTime":3134.7,"body":"I think I was just like shocked"},{"startTime":3134.7,"endTime":3137.7,"body":"because I had said from night one of finding out like"},{"startTime":3137.7,"endTime":3139.4,"body":"even if this is a full blown affair"},{"startTime":3139.4,"endTime":3140.533,"body":"there's still Grace for that"},{"startTime":3140.533,"endTime":3141.333,"body":"but then"},{"startTime":3141.866,"endTime":3144.6,"body":"trying to wrap my mind around the fact that"},{"startTime":3144.6,"endTime":3147.033,"body":"Jay had lied to us for"},{"startTime":3147.7,"endTime":3151.066,"body":"a month and a half and was still getting paid"},{"startTime":3151.066,"endTime":3153.166,"body":"like we were fighting for him to still be paid"},{"startTime":3153.166,"endTime":3154.966,"body":"while he wasn't actually preaching"},{"startTime":3154.966,"endTime":3156.666,"body":"or doing anything for the church"},{"startTime":3156.666,"endTime":3161.066,"body":"um so she told us on November 5th and by November 11th"},{"startTime":3161.066,"endTime":3163.333,"body":"it was told to the entire church"},{"startTime":3163.333,"endTime":3165.9,"body":"and he was formally rebuked and fired"},{"startTime":3165.9,"endTime":3168.666,"body":"so this relationship is public knowledge"},{"startTime":3168.666,"endTime":3170.0,"body":"in that community yes"},{"startTime":3170.0,"endTime":3173.466,"body":"and like we said in Stephanie's episode"},{"startTime":3174.0,"endTime":3177.566,"body":"through our conversations leading up to them recording"},{"startTime":3177.566,"endTime":3179.2,"body":"there was a lot of conversation"},{"startTime":3179.2,"endTime":3182.066,"body":"surrounding what clergy sexual abuse is"},{"startTime":3182.333,"endTime":3185.133,"body":"that affairs are not possible"},{"startTime":3185.133,"endTime":3187.066,"body":"when there is a dynamic of pastor"},{"startTime":3187.066,"endTime":3188.133,"body":"congregant"},{"startTime":3188.133,"endTime":3191.566,"body":"because of the inherent power dynamics that exist"},{"startTime":3192.133,"endTime":3197.166,"body":"with pastors and those that are under their charge"},{"startTime":3197.166,"endTime":3198.733,"body":"I guess would be the word"},{"startTime":3198.733,"endTime":3200.933,"body":"so we're gonna link in the show notes"},{"startTime":3200.933,"endTime":3203.733,"body":"clergy sexual misconduct website"},{"startTime":3203.733,"endTime":3207.066,"body":"that's gonna give a lot more in depth"},{"startTime":3207.066,"endTime":3209.266,"body":"educational resources to people"},{"startTime":3209.366,"endTime":3210.766,"body":"and if you're hearing this"},{"startTime":3210.766,"endTime":3213.266,"body":"or you've been in a situation where"},{"startTime":3213.866,"endTime":3216.5,"body":"something has come out about your pastor"},{"startTime":3216.5,"endTime":3218.533,"body":"having an affair with a congregant"},{"startTime":3218.533,"endTime":3219.866,"body":"or a staff member"},{"startTime":3219.866,"endTime":3225.7,"body":"I just encourage you to examine that verbitch"},{"startTime":3225.7,"endTime":3228.8,"body":"and look into the again"},{"startTime":3228.8,"endTime":3231.2,"body":"the show notes where we have this information"},{"startTime":3231.2,"endTime":3235.2,"body":"so you can really start to learn how manipulative"},{"startTime":3235.2,"endTime":3236.9,"body":"and coercive"},{"startTime":3236.9,"endTime":3239.6,"body":"and the lack of consent that can truly exist"},{"startTime":3239.666,"endTime":3242.933,"body":"within those dynamics but the reality is"},{"startTime":3242.933,"endTime":3246.733,"body":"is we don't have a ton of education surrounding that"},{"startTime":3246.733,"endTime":3249.566,"body":"so it's labeled as an affair publicly"},{"startTime":3249.566,"endTime":3252.133,"body":"so this woman as seen"},{"startTime":3252.133,"endTime":3258.266,"body":"is seen as the other woman in an affair and he"},{"startTime":3259.8,"endTime":3262.866,"body":"kinda gets away with leaving it at that"},{"startTime":3262.866,"endTime":3264.7,"body":"when it's so much more nefarious"},{"startTime":3264.7,"endTime":3267.1,"body":"when it's a pastor congregate situation"},{"startTime":3267.1,"endTime":3271.233,"body":"yes and it left her with some of the responsibility too"},{"startTime":3271.5,"endTime":3273.0,"body":"when it shouldn't have been"},{"startTime":3273.266,"endTime":3273.766,"body":"yeah"},{"startTime":3273.766,"endTime":3278.333,"body":"and even in the statement that was read to our church"},{"startTime":3278.333,"endTime":3281.7,"body":"to formally rebuke and fire J"},{"startTime":3282.266,"endTime":3283.6,"body":"it says"},{"startTime":3284.166,"endTime":3286.266,"body":"the woman whom Pastor Jay"},{"startTime":3286.266,"endTime":3288.766,"body":"had sent the inappropriate text message to"},{"startTime":3288.766,"endTime":3290.533,"body":"admitted to having a sexual"},{"startTime":3290.533,"endTime":3292.7,"body":"and romantic affair with Pastor Jay"},{"startTime":3293.2,"endTime":3295.733,"body":"Pastor Jay admitted to it as well"},{"startTime":3295.733,"endTime":3297.2,"body":"oh and then the next line"},{"startTime":3297.6,"endTime":3298.9,"body":"our time of investigation"},{"startTime":3298.9,"endTime":3301.366,"body":"has LED to a sad and sobering realization"},{"startTime":3301.366,"endTime":3302.166,"body":"Pastor J"},{"startTime":3302.166,"endTime":3304.9,"body":"is in the state of open sin and rebellion to god"},{"startTime":3304.9,"endTime":3305.566,"body":"in his word"},{"startTime":3305.566,"endTime":3309.366,"body":"and he is unfit to continue as pastor of our church"},{"startTime":3309.366,"endTime":3313.5,"body":"and so it's still just open sin and rebellion"},{"startTime":3313.5,"endTime":3315.166,"body":"is how we're gonna label it"},{"startTime":3315.4,"endTime":3316.866,"body":"not calling it what it is"},{"startTime":3317.333,"endTime":3321.333,"body":"not abuse that's not language that's being used here"},{"startTime":3321.333,"endTime":3322.1,"body":"yeah so"},{"startTime":3322.1,"endTime":3325.066,"body":"I think the craziest part is that even at this point"},{"startTime":3325.066,"endTime":3326.7,"body":"even when Jay was fired"},{"startTime":3327.1,"endTime":3328.666,"body":"I think it's important to mention"},{"startTime":3328.666,"endTime":3330.1,"body":"he completely went into hiding"},{"startTime":3330.1,"endTime":3331.7,"body":"like stopped replying to people"},{"startTime":3331.7,"endTime":3335.366,"body":"just not seen or heard for a while"},{"startTime":3335.366,"endTime":3336.666,"body":"even at this point though"},{"startTime":3336.666,"endTime":3338.4,"body":"like there was still this"},{"startTime":3338.7,"endTime":3341.033,"body":"for me at least longing of like"},{"startTime":3341.4,"endTime":3343.866,"body":"how do we reconcile this Jay needs help"},{"startTime":3343.866,"endTime":3345.9,"body":"and Stephanie had told me about"},{"startTime":3345.9,"endTime":3347.766,"body":"the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast"},{"startTime":3347.766,"endTime":3350.1,"body":"and when I started listening to that"},{"startTime":3350.333,"endTime":3354.1,"body":"it was wild and it was such a mind fuck to hear how"},{"startTime":3354.4,"endTime":3356.166,"body":"Mark Driscoll was talked about"},{"startTime":3356.166,"endTime":3358.1,"body":"and I'm not saying that Jay and Mark are the same"},{"startTime":3358.1,"endTime":3359.966,"body":"because there are a lot of differences"},{"startTime":3360.333,"endTime":3361.933,"body":"but there were a lot of similarities"},{"startTime":3361.933,"endTime":3364.266,"body":"to the narcissistic behavior"},{"startTime":3364.266,"endTime":3366.133,"body":"the gaslighting now we know"},{"startTime":3366.133,"endTime":3368.3,"body":"the spiritual the emotional"},{"startTime":3368.3,"endTime":3370.466,"body":"mental and sexual abuse"},{"startTime":3370.7,"endTime":3374.8,"body":"there were just so many similarities and it was really"},{"startTime":3374.8,"endTime":3376.6,"body":"really really hard to wrap my mind around"},{"startTime":3376.6,"endTime":3380.033,"body":"this isn't just like this isolated incident of him"},{"startTime":3380.133,"endTime":3381.733,"body":"having a relationship with this woman"},{"startTime":3381.733,"endTime":3384.7,"body":"this is like this is Jay overall"},{"startTime":3384.8,"endTime":3389.7,"body":"and so it became clear pretty quickly at that point"},{"startTime":3389.7,"endTime":3392.0,"body":"that this wasn't like"},{"startTime":3392.0,"endTime":3394.466,"body":"new characteristics of Jay that were coming up"},{"startTime":3394.466,"endTime":3396.7,"body":"this was like who he's always been"},{"startTime":3397.5,"endTime":3400.7,"body":"and over time and like processing through"},{"startTime":3400.7,"endTime":3402.466,"body":"specifically with Stephanie and her husband"},{"startTime":3402.466,"endTime":3406.1,"body":"and my husband realizing that this whole time"},{"startTime":3406.1,"endTime":3407.466,"body":"that we thought that we were like"},{"startTime":3407.466,"endTime":3410.6,"body":"on this charge of furthering the gospel in our town"},{"startTime":3411.066,"endTime":3414.366,"body":"that it was really just Jay building his own little"},{"startTime":3414.366,"endTime":3416.566,"body":"self serving kingdom for himself"},{"startTime":3416.566,"endTime":3420.466,"body":"and makes me sick to think about"},{"startTime":3420.533,"endTime":3423.566,"body":"especially because we were his little ponds in it"},{"startTime":3423.9,"endTime":3425.933,"body":"and it it wasn't just a recent thing"},{"startTime":3425.933,"endTime":3427.8,"body":"like these things"},{"startTime":3427.8,"endTime":3431.833,"body":"and these character traits have always been there"},{"startTime":3432.133,"endTime":3433.166,"body":"and were there"},{"startTime":3433.166,"endTime":3437.6,"body":"even when I started going to the church in 2,011"},{"startTime":3437.8,"endTime":3439.033,"body":"so it was like"},{"startTime":3439.2,"endTime":3442.166,"body":"experiencing this whole different kind of grief that"},{"startTime":3442.166,"endTime":3445.166,"body":"like all of my theology was built on this man"},{"startTime":3445.466,"endTime":3445.8,"body":"and then"},{"startTime":3445.8,"endTime":3449.766,"body":"having to deconstruct what I actually believed"},{"startTime":3449.766,"endTime":3451.266,"body":"and what that looked like"},{"startTime":3451.4,"endTime":3454.866,"body":"so December was a very hard and dark month"},{"startTime":3454.866,"endTime":3456.2,"body":"for sure I think"},{"startTime":3456.2,"endTime":3458.7,"body":"there's gonna be a lot of people that struggle with"},{"startTime":3458.7,"endTime":3460.133,"body":"the severity that I see"},{"startTime":3460.133,"endTime":3461.3,"body":"what happened"},{"startTime":3461.366,"endTime":3464.033,"body":"I think what people have to understand is that"},{"startTime":3464.2,"endTime":3467.833,"body":"Jay groomed different people in different ways"},{"startTime":3468.3,"endTime":3471.0,"body":"and I don't know if I wanna include this"},{"startTime":3471.0,"endTime":3473.966,"body":"but I am fully convinced that it was a cult"},{"startTime":3474.133,"endTime":3476.5,"body":"I think a lot of people are struggling with"},{"startTime":3476.866,"endTime":3478.533,"body":"the things that Jay put into place"},{"startTime":3478.533,"endTime":3480.1,"body":"give the benefit of the doubt and"},{"startTime":3480.1,"endTime":3482.166,"body":"you know Grace covers everything"},{"startTime":3482.166,"endTime":3483.466,"body":"and you know"},{"startTime":3483.8,"endTime":3486.066,"body":"we need to be gospel centered in how we reply"},{"startTime":3486.066,"endTime":3488.566,"body":"to these things and while those things are all true"},{"startTime":3488.6,"endTime":3490.1,"body":"they can also be twisted"},{"startTime":3490.1,"endTime":3493.666,"body":"manipulated and used as a license to sin"},{"startTime":3493.666,"endTime":3494.666,"body":"and that's what Jay did"},{"startTime":3494.666,"endTime":3497.0,"body":"he used it all as a license to sin"},{"startTime":3497.1,"endTime":3499.066,"body":"all of his theology all of it"},{"startTime":3499.066,"endTime":3503.466,"body":"it's not just giving him forgiveness for this affair"},{"startTime":3503.466,"endTime":3506.2,"body":"and stealing money it's all of the"},{"startTime":3506.766,"endTime":3509.966,"body":"manipulation and abuse that went into him"},{"startTime":3509.966,"endTime":3513.233,"body":"building his own kingdom when we all thought we were"},{"startTime":3513.366,"endTime":3515.9,"body":"taking part of the kingdom of Jesus"},{"startTime":3516.166,"endTime":3517.966,"body":"and for me"},{"startTime":3517.966,"endTime":3521.7,"body":"something that was really concerning about your guys"},{"startTime":3521.7,"endTime":3523.066,"body":"story in general"},{"startTime":3523.333,"endTime":3527.4,"body":"is the level of grooming that was so apparent"},{"startTime":3527.4,"endTime":3529.866,"body":"in your story and Stephanie's story"},{"startTime":3530.3,"endTime":3532.466,"body":"and then to know that there was also"},{"startTime":3532.933,"endTime":3536.566,"body":"this clergy sexual abuse situation going on"},{"startTime":3536.566,"endTime":3538.533,"body":"to understand on our side of things"},{"startTime":3538.533,"endTime":3539.9,"body":"that there hasn't been like"},{"startTime":3539.9,"endTime":3543.033,"body":"a thorough investigation into how deep"},{"startTime":3543.766,"endTime":3546.5,"body":"that behavior went as far as"},{"startTime":3546.5,"endTime":3549.066,"body":"were there other congregants that experienced this"},{"startTime":3549.066,"endTime":3550.9,"body":"over the last 15 years"},{"startTime":3551.066,"endTime":3553.9,"body":"there could be a woman listening to this right now"},{"startTime":3553.933,"endTime":3556.0,"body":"who was amusing air quotes"},{"startTime":3556.0,"endTime":3558.9,"body":"the other woman and is carrying all this shame"},{"startTime":3559.266,"endTime":3562.133,"body":"and not understanding the dynamics that were at play"},{"startTime":3562.133,"endTime":3563.966,"body":"and the grooming that had happened"},{"startTime":3563.966,"endTime":3570.8,"body":"and the fact that clergy sexual abuse is so nefarious"},{"startTime":3570.8,"endTime":3573.966,"body":"and there is such a stigma on it"},{"startTime":3574.133,"endTime":3576.166,"body":"and a lack of education surrounding it"},{"startTime":3576.166,"endTime":3579.5,"body":"and predators utilize that to their advantage"},{"startTime":3579.5,"endTime":3581.466,"body":"to prey on vulnerable people"},{"startTime":3582.066,"endTime":3585.9,"body":"and as I've gotten to know you and Stephanie"},{"startTime":3585.9,"endTime":3587.366,"body":"through our phone calls"},{"startTime":3587.366,"endTime":3589.8,"body":"I have seen even in your own lives"},{"startTime":3589.8,"endTime":3590.533,"body":"in your own stories"},{"startTime":3590.533,"endTime":3593.666,"body":"where there's vulnerabilities that he capitalized on"},{"startTime":3593.666,"endTime":3597.266,"body":"in order to keep you guys right"},{"startTime":3597.266,"endTime":3599.866,"body":"where he needed you to support"},{"startTime":3600.7,"endTime":3602.8,"body":"the way that he wanted to live"},{"startTime":3603.0,"endTime":3605.1,"body":"and the things that he wanted to do"},{"startTime":3605.566,"endTime":3611.566,"body":"so this is why when we get into Acts 29"},{"startTime":3611.566,"endTime":3614.866,"body":"doing the bare minimum less than the bare minimum"},{"startTime":3614.866,"endTime":3616.766,"body":"when you guys reach out for help"},{"startTime":3617.0,"endTime":3623.7,"body":"we have so many concerns because they gave their stamp"},{"startTime":3623.7,"endTime":3625.3,"body":"this dude was assessed"},{"startTime":3625.3,"endTime":3627.633,"body":"and allowed to be a part of that network"},{"startTime":3627.666,"endTime":3628.9,"body":"they wanna wash their hands"},{"startTime":3628.9,"endTime":3631.133,"body":"as soon as a scandal occurs oh"},{"startTime":3631.133,"endTime":3633.633,"body":"that's not us we're not gonna touch that"},{"startTime":3634.133,"endTime":3638.066,"body":"and they're not doing the due diligence to understand"},{"startTime":3638.366,"endTime":3641.4,"body":"they're okay with allowing this person to have power"},{"startTime":3641.4,"endTime":3643.266,"body":"but they're not okay with the fallout"},{"startTime":3643.266,"endTime":3645.8,"body":"that comes from the corruption that was there"},{"startTime":3645.933,"endTime":3647.266,"body":"and the abuse that was there"},{"startTime":3647.266,"endTime":3648.8,"body":"and coming alongside you guys"},{"startTime":3648.8,"endTime":3651.8,"body":"and helping you to understand scope"},{"startTime":3652.0,"endTime":3655.966,"body":"so basically this dude that was your pastor"},{"startTime":3656.733,"endTime":3659.933,"body":"that has an untold amount of abuse in his wake"},{"startTime":3659.933,"endTime":3662.5,"body":"we don't know how deep it goes"},{"startTime":3663.3,"endTime":3665.866,"body":"is just like moving through the world now"},{"startTime":3665.866,"endTime":3668.966,"body":"and could be pastoring tomorrow at another church"},{"startTime":3668.966,"endTime":3670.6,"body":"in another part of the country"},{"startTime":3670.933,"endTime":3673.8,"body":"and there is no paper trail anywhere"},{"startTime":3674.166,"endTime":3677.666,"body":"nope and Stephanie and I have both reached out"},{"startTime":3677.666,"endTime":3683.1,"body":"tax 29 even post them leaving our church"},{"startTime":3683.5,"endTime":3686.1,"body":"and they want nothing to do with it"},{"startTime":3686.3,"endTime":3689.1,"body":"and they they got involved right in the process"},{"startTime":3689.1,"endTime":3690.633,"body":"when did they get involved"},{"startTime":3691.266,"endTime":3695.733,"body":"in the task force type of investigation"},{"startTime":3695.733,"endTime":3697.333,"body":"someone from the task force"},{"startTime":3697.333,"endTime":3700.066,"body":"originally reached out at the end of September"},{"startTime":3700.066,"endTime":3701.4,"body":"and there was like"},{"startTime":3701.533,"endTime":3705.166,"body":"a week to two weeks where they didn't even respond"},{"startTime":3705.5,"endTime":3707.866,"body":"and Stephanie also reached out"},{"startTime":3707.9,"endTime":3711.2,"body":"but then when she ended up getting a reply"},{"startTime":3711.2,"endTime":3711.866,"body":"which is funny"},{"startTime":3711.866,"endTime":3713.966,"body":"cause he's actually meant the person that she"},{"startTime":3713.966,"endTime":3716.866,"body":"reached out to was mentioned in a previous episode"},{"startTime":3716.866,"endTime":3719.3,"body":"who is supposed to be leading pastoral care"},{"startTime":3719.3,"endTime":3721.766,"body":"and that is not the case so she kind of dropped it"},{"startTime":3721.766,"endTime":3723.6,"body":"cause it seemed like things were gonna move on"},{"startTime":3723.6,"endTime":3724.6,"body":"and things were gonna get better"},{"startTime":3724.6,"endTime":3726.033,"body":"and he was gonna be restored"},{"startTime":3726.266,"endTime":3729.033,"body":"but then they were actually brought in"},{"startTime":3729.466,"endTime":3732.3,"body":"at some point between November 5th and November 12th"},{"startTime":3732.3,"endTime":3733.266,"body":"um between"},{"startTime":3733.9,"endTime":3736.066,"body":"the other woman coming forward with the full truth"},{"startTime":3736.066,"endTime":3739.8,"body":"and Jay being rebuked and fired"},{"startTime":3740.133,"endTime":3743.766,"body":"so they brought in Knowle who is the"},{"startTime":3744.366,"endTime":3746.366,"body":"you can find him on the X29 website"},{"startTime":3746.366,"endTime":3749.2,"body":"he's the regional director of the Midwest"},{"startTime":3749.2,"endTime":3750.5,"body":"and then Kyle"},{"startTime":3750.5,"endTime":3754.166,"body":"who leads another Chicagoland area church"},{"startTime":3754.166,"endTime":3757.733,"body":"and he's a volunteer that I've been told"},{"startTime":3757.733,"endTime":3760.366,"body":"he's not paid as our area lead"},{"startTime":3761.0,"endTime":3762.7,"body":"so that's another way that they can"},{"startTime":3762.7,"endTime":3764.6,"body":"get away with not taking responsibility"},{"startTime":3764.6,"endTime":3766.366,"body":"or having to take accountability"},{"startTime":3766.366,"endTime":3768.2,"body":"for what's going on with their pastors"},{"startTime":3768.3,"endTime":3774.366,"body":"so they came in and after Jay was let go"},{"startTime":3774.533,"endTime":3777.533,"body":"and keep in mind Jay was not there for this at all"},{"startTime":3777.533,"endTime":3781.3,"body":"he wrote a half assed apology"},{"startTime":3781.666,"endTime":3785.866,"body":"resignation letter to the other local pastor"},{"startTime":3785.866,"endTime":3788.533,"body":"and it was never like shared with our church"},{"startTime":3788.533,"endTime":3791.666,"body":"I've read it and it's laughable"},{"startTime":3792.0,"endTime":3793.3,"body":"he doesn't take ownership"},{"startTime":3793.3,"endTime":3795.1,"body":"for anything that actually happened"},{"startTime":3795.1,"endTime":3795.566,"body":"so anyways"},{"startTime":3795.566,"endTime":3798.333,"body":"these guys come in and they're basically like"},{"startTime":3798.333,"endTime":3802.2,"body":"we can either move forward with the church"},{"startTime":3802.2,"endTime":3804.433,"body":"and we can help you guys do that or"},{"startTime":3804.7,"endTime":3810.666,"body":"you know we can shut the doors and it caused this"},{"startTime":3810.666,"endTime":3813.366,"body":"insane divide between the people that wanted to stay"},{"startTime":3813.366,"endTime":3815.1,"body":"and the people that wanted to leave"},{"startTime":3815.133,"endTime":3817.733,"body":"and at that point there was only a few of us left"},{"startTime":3817.733,"endTime":3819.1,"body":"because so many people had left"},{"startTime":3819.1,"endTime":3822.5,"body":"just over a little text message prior to this"},{"startTime":3822.5,"endTime":3823.333,"body":"so well"},{"startTime":3823.333,"endTime":3824.8,"body":"I think it's interesting for him"},{"startTime":3824.8,"endTime":3827.1,"body":"that Akstrang representatives were"},{"startTime":3827.1,"endTime":3830.0,"body":"were present when the statement was read about Pastor J"},{"startTime":3830.0,"endTime":3831.3,"body":"Correct yes"},{"startTime":3831.3,"endTime":3834.0,"body":"and they have flip flopped via writing"},{"startTime":3834.0,"endTime":3836.633,"body":"if they helped to write the statement"},{"startTime":3836.8,"endTime":3840.166,"body":"or if they were just present at the statement"},{"startTime":3840.266,"endTime":3840.5,"body":"so"},{"startTime":3840.5,"endTime":3843.133,"body":"they've played whichever card they needed at the time"},{"startTime":3843.133,"endTime":3845.666,"body":"they didn't share the statement with"},{"startTime":3845.666,"endTime":3846.9,"body":"anyone in the church right"},{"startTime":3846.9,"endTime":3848.866,"body":"it was just red correct"},{"startTime":3848.866,"endTime":3851.566,"body":"and then they gave specific instructions on what to do"},{"startTime":3851.566,"endTime":3854.3,"body":"if you had questions or if anybody had questions"},{"startTime":3854.366,"endTime":3856.0,"body":"yes they were very clear"},{"startTime":3856.0,"endTime":3859.066,"body":"that this was not a topic to be discussed"},{"startTime":3859.066,"endTime":3862.133,"body":"outside of that meeting that"},{"startTime":3862.133,"endTime":3863.6,"body":"if there were church members"},{"startTime":3863.6,"endTime":3865.3,"body":"that couldn't make it to that meeting"},{"startTime":3865.3,"endTime":3868.066,"body":"that day to not discuss it with them"},{"startTime":3868.266,"endTime":3870.4,"body":"that would be gossip and that was not fair"},{"startTime":3870.4,"endTime":3871.366,"body":"to talk about"},{"startTime":3871.366,"endTime":3873.866,"body":"what had happened with anybody outside of the room"},{"startTime":3873.866,"endTime":3874.866,"body":"at that time"},{"startTime":3874.9,"endTime":3877.166,"body":"and so they asked that if anybody reached out"},{"startTime":3877.166,"endTime":3878.666,"body":"wanting to know what happened"},{"startTime":3878.8,"endTime":3883.7,"body":"to have us give the acts 29 guys their email addresses"},{"startTime":3883.7,"endTime":3886.033,"body":"and then the acts 29 guys would reach out to them"},{"startTime":3886.6,"endTime":3887.433,"body":"so"},{"startTime":3887.7,"endTime":3892.2,"body":"when I sent my team my resignation text later that day"},{"startTime":3892.2,"endTime":3893.7,"body":"I did have someone"},{"startTime":3894.4,"endTime":3897.566,"body":"reach out and ask what had happened and so I said"},{"startTime":3897.566,"endTime":3899.066,"body":"can I give your email text 29"},{"startTime":3899.066,"endTime":3900.7,"body":"they'll reach out and they'll talk to you"},{"startTime":3900.7,"endTime":3904.6,"body":"so I did that send a text 29 didn't hear back"},{"startTime":3904.866,"endTime":3906.933,"body":"then in January I uh"},{"startTime":3906.933,"endTime":3909.2,"body":"I think it was the Holy Spirit was like"},{"startTime":3909.2,"endTime":3910.5,"body":"you need to follow up with that lady"},{"startTime":3910.5,"endTime":3911.5,"body":"and make sure that she"},{"startTime":3912.066,"endTime":3913.066,"body":"knows what happened"},{"startTime":3913.066,"endTime":3915.433,"body":"and she said that she never heard from X29"},{"startTime":3915.566,"endTime":3917.7,"body":"so then I followed up with X29"},{"startTime":3918.133,"endTime":3921.9,"body":"Noel and Kyle and I said hey"},{"startTime":3922.0,"endTime":3923.4,"body":"following up on this email"},{"startTime":3923.4,"endTime":3925.0,"body":"she never heard from you guys"},{"startTime":3925.2,"endTime":3929.6,"body":"what the heck and Kyle also this is interesting"},{"startTime":3929.6,"endTime":3931.066,"body":"Kyle the volunteer"},{"startTime":3931.066,"endTime":3934.533,"body":"he was the one that was communicating with us"},{"startTime":3934.533,"endTime":3938.4,"body":"I think Nol the official Acts 29 guy"},{"startTime":3938.6,"endTime":3940.0,"body":"only replied like once"},{"startTime":3940.0,"endTime":3942.366,"body":"when he was still trying to get our families to stay"},{"startTime":3942.566,"endTime":3944.666,"body":"so Kyle said no"},{"startTime":3944.666,"endTime":3947.1,"body":"we didn't have anything to do with that statement"},{"startTime":3947.1,"endTime":3950.6,"body":"and it's not our responsibility to share it"},{"startTime":3951.133,"endTime":3953.666,"body":"and yeah that's we're not gonna share that"},{"startTime":3953.666,"endTime":3956.266,"body":"that's not our place and so I said"},{"startTime":3956.266,"endTime":3958.333,"body":"okay and then Stephanie and Willie"},{"startTime":3958.333,"endTime":3961.466,"body":"and I shared the statement with that lady"},{"startTime":3961.566,"endTime":3962.5,"body":"because"},{"startTime":3963.533,"endTime":3965.166,"body":"now I am under"},{"startTime":3965.4,"endTime":3967.533,"body":"the belief that everybody needs to know what happened"},{"startTime":3967.533,"endTime":3969.166,"body":"and everyone needs to know the truth"},{"startTime":3969.166,"endTime":3970.566,"body":"at that point in time"},{"startTime":3970.6,"endTime":3972.566,"body":"when she had first asked me for it"},{"startTime":3972.7,"endTime":3973.733,"body":"I was like no"},{"startTime":3973.733,"endTime":3976.166,"body":"I need to listen and I need to do what I'm told"},{"startTime":3976.166,"endTime":3978.1,"body":"and I don't wanna gossip"},{"startTime":3978.1,"endTime":3979.6,"body":"and I don't wanna you know"},{"startTime":3979.6,"endTime":3985.1,"body":"tear Jay down but the more I Learned how corrupt he was"},{"startTime":3985.466,"endTime":3986.566,"body":"the more I was like no"},{"startTime":3986.566,"endTime":3987.733,"body":"truth needs to be brought to light"},{"startTime":3987.733,"endTime":3989.5,"body":"and we need to talk about these things"},{"startTime":3989.5,"endTime":3990.9,"body":"that was just like"},{"startTime":3991.333,"endTime":3993.1,"body":"the best example that I had from that"},{"startTime":3993.1,"endTime":3993.166,"body":"but"},{"startTime":3993.166,"endTime":3995.133,"body":"there were a lot of people that should have been told"},{"startTime":3995.133,"endTime":3996.566,"body":"that weren't told about it"},{"startTime":3996.566,"endTime":4001.333,"body":"and I find it so frustrating that"},{"startTime":4001.333,"endTime":4003.266,"body":"that falls on you guys"},{"startTime":4003.266,"endTime":4006.1,"body":"and that people that claim to be shepherds"},{"startTime":4006.5,"endTime":4009.133,"body":"are not protecting the flock from predators"},{"startTime":4009.133,"endTime":4011.733,"body":"that is their thing that's the bread and butter"},{"startTime":4011.733,"endTime":4015.1,"body":"we love to talk about these warrior pastors"},{"startTime":4015.1,"endTime":4017.8,"body":"who are protecting the flock from wolves"},{"startTime":4017.8,"endTime":4021.566,"body":"and like it's cowardice that's cowardice"},{"startTime":4021.766,"endTime":4023.266,"body":"you don't wanna be attached to this"},{"startTime":4023.266,"endTime":4026.666,"body":"so you'd rather let an alleged predator"},{"startTime":4026.666,"endTime":4029.133,"body":"with some pretty dang good evidence"},{"startTime":4029.133,"endTime":4031.166,"body":"that they had predatory patterns"},{"startTime":4031.766,"endTime":4035.066,"body":"walk around Scott free like that"},{"startTime":4035.066,"endTime":4038.466,"body":"he can and I as an outsider"},{"startTime":4038.466,"endTime":4040.766,"body":"actually feel frustrated toward the investigator"},{"startTime":4040.766,"endTime":4041.4,"body":"your church use"},{"startTime":4041.4,"endTime":4046.3,"body":"because that person either is out of their depth"},{"startTime":4046.733,"endTime":4048.666,"body":"and does not understand"},{"startTime":4049.1,"endTime":4051.566,"body":"these dynamics that we've talked about today"},{"startTime":4052.0,"endTime":4054.7,"body":"or was used to cover"},{"startTime":4054.7,"endTime":4059.266,"body":"for behavior and to cover up the situation"},{"startTime":4059.466,"endTime":4061.833,"body":"so those are the two options really"},{"startTime":4062.066,"endTime":4068.0,"body":"and it's frustrating to me that Acts 29"},{"startTime":4068.1,"endTime":4071.766,"body":"with a pattern of abuse full podcast"},{"startTime":4071.766,"endTime":4073.533,"body":"I mean bodies behind the bus is one of them"},{"startTime":4073.533,"endTime":4076.066,"body":"but not just us rise and fall"},{"startTime":4076.066,"endTime":4079.666,"body":"like their full bodies of work"},{"startTime":4080.466,"endTime":4083.9,"body":"that are dedicated to exposing patterns of abuse"},{"startTime":4083.9,"endTime":4084.933,"body":"within Acts 29"},{"startTime":4084.933,"endTime":4087.7,"body":"and instead of digging in and saying"},{"startTime":4087.966,"endTime":4089.833,"body":"we're gonna protect people from this"},{"startTime":4090.3,"endTime":4093.3,"body":"this isn't safe we're gonna use correct language"},{"startTime":4093.3,"endTime":4094.7,"body":"we're not gonna use the word affair"},{"startTime":4094.7,"endTime":4095.7,"body":"when we talk about this"},{"startTime":4095.7,"endTime":4097.833,"body":"because that's not what's going on here"},{"startTime":4098.133,"endTime":4101.2,"body":"none of that nobody's brought in that has"},{"startTime":4101.566,"endTime":4103.4,"body":"education surrounding this"},{"startTime":4103.4,"endTime":4105.733,"body":"and the idea you guys"},{"startTime":4105.733,"endTime":4108.366,"body":"were specifically told not to put the statement online"},{"startTime":4108.366,"endTime":4110.233,"body":"correct even more so"},{"startTime":4110.3,"endTime":4113.266,"body":"like we were not even supposed to use our own language"},{"startTime":4113.266,"endTime":4115.4,"body":"of what was discussed in that meeting"},{"startTime":4115.533,"endTime":4116.9,"body":"with other church members"},{"startTime":4116.9,"endTime":4118.866,"body":"or with other people that had been there"},{"startTime":4118.866,"endTime":4120.2,"body":"we weren't allowed to talk about it"},{"startTime":4120.2,"endTime":4122.466,"body":"outside of that room that day"},{"startTime":4122.733,"endTime":4127.4,"body":"which is manipulation and abusive"},{"startTime":4127.4,"endTime":4130.033,"body":"and coercive and abusive power"},{"startTime":4130.2,"endTime":4132.3,"body":"because that's not gossip"},{"startTime":4132.766,"endTime":4137.566,"body":"saying the truth about a predator is not gossip"},{"startTime":4137.7,"endTime":4141.3,"body":"yeah and gaslighting into telling us yeah"},{"startTime":4141.3,"endTime":4144.566,"body":"send us emails so we can share this but then no"},{"startTime":4144.566,"endTime":4145.2,"body":"no no"},{"startTime":4145.2,"endTime":4146.666,"body":"we're not gonna share this with anyone"},{"startTime":4146.666,"endTime":4148.266,"body":"that's not our place that's"},{"startTime":4148.6,"endTime":4149.966,"body":"it's absolutely absurd"},{"startTime":4149.966,"endTime":4152.2,"body":"to see the emails next to each other"},{"startTime":4152.733,"endTime":4153.3,"body":"why also"},{"startTime":4153.3,"endTime":4156.9,"body":"I also think of the carnage of the people that"},{"startTime":4156.9,"endTime":4159.166,"body":"that are left in this community"},{"startTime":4159.166,"endTime":4162.9,"body":"to deal with the fallout of this situation"},{"startTime":4163.3,"endTime":4165.566,"body":"those that are connected is intimately"},{"startTime":4165.566,"endTime":4167.3,"body":"as you've been connected to the story"},{"startTime":4167.3,"endTime":4168.766,"body":"and those that are not"},{"startTime":4168.766,"endTime":4171.066,"body":"that have just spent the last years"},{"startTime":4171.066,"endTime":4174.566,"body":"with their families going to this church and serving"},{"startTime":4175.333,"endTime":4176.8,"body":"the emotional and spiritual"},{"startTime":4176.8,"endTime":4179.266,"body":"well being of those individuals"},{"startTime":4179.366,"endTime":4182.766,"body":"I don't even think it's in the thought of Acts 29 to"},{"startTime":4182.766,"endTime":4188.066,"body":"to see how or how can we help these people"},{"startTime":4188.533,"endTime":4191.566,"body":"and it's plug and play just move on"},{"startTime":4191.566,"endTime":4195.266,"body":"just move on to another church and and keep"},{"startTime":4195.266,"endTime":4197.666,"body":"keep the keep the gimmick going"},{"startTime":4197.933,"endTime":4199.366,"body":"which is which is"},{"startTime":4199.366,"endTime":4200.666,"body":"I mean it's upsetting"},{"startTime":4200.666,"endTime":4202.166,"body":"but it's not surprising I mean"},{"startTime":4202.166,"endTime":4203.7,"body":"with churches like actually 9"},{"startTime":4203.7,"endTime":4204.7,"body":"the Spc"},{"startTime":4205.266,"endTime":4208.666,"body":"and they're just very much working from the same deck"},{"startTime":4208.666,"endTime":4210.6,"body":"and that deck is not good"},{"startTime":4210.9,"endTime":4212.8,"body":"so it's just it's sad"},{"startTime":4212.8,"endTime":4215.866,"body":"Stephanie and I both tried to lay it out for Acts 29"},{"startTime":4215.866,"endTime":4217.7,"body":"we actually contacted um"},{"startTime":4217.7,"endTime":4220.966,"body":"all of basically everyone on their website"},{"startTime":4221.3,"endTime":4225.166,"body":"we emailed them and Stephanie did get a reply"},{"startTime":4225.3,"endTime":4227.1,"body":"that essentially went nowhere"},{"startTime":4227.1,"endTime":4228.766,"body":"they still don't wanna take accountability"},{"startTime":4228.766,"endTime":4231.766,"body":"and they tried to twist and manipulate things"},{"startTime":4231.766,"endTime":4233.8,"body":"and I ended my email"},{"startTime":4234.066,"endTime":4235.966,"body":"the last email that was sent in the group"},{"startTime":4235.966,"endTime":4239.133,"body":"that just said it seems to me like X29"},{"startTime":4239.133,"endTime":4241.066,"body":"always wants to have it both ways"},{"startTime":4241.1,"endTime":4241.966,"body":"be involved"},{"startTime":4241.966,"endTime":4244.266,"body":"so you can cover it up and keep things quiet"},{"startTime":4244.266,"endTime":4246.766,"body":"to protect the image but not have responsibility"},{"startTime":4246.766,"endTime":4248.566,"body":"or accountability for anything"},{"startTime":4248.7,"endTime":4249.7,"body":"yet somehow"},{"startTime":4249.7,"endTime":4249.933,"body":"still"},{"startTime":4249.933,"endTime":4252.466,"body":"have the authority to tell us what we can and can't say"},{"startTime":4252.7,"endTime":4255.066,"body":"this is not just happening at a little church"},{"startTime":4255.066,"endTime":4258.266,"body":"in our little town this is happening across the country"},{"startTime":4258.5,"endTime":4259.7,"body":"and while I know this email"},{"startTime":4259.7,"endTime":4261.166,"body":"probably won't change anything"},{"startTime":4261.166,"endTime":4264.0,"body":"at Acts 29 and may even be laughed off"},{"startTime":4264.166,"endTime":4265.866,"body":"I pray one day you each"},{"startTime":4265.866,"endTime":4268.066,"body":"truly know how much harm and trauma you have"},{"startTime":4268.066,"endTime":4269.9,"body":"had a hand in causing"},{"startTime":4269.9,"endTime":4272.433,"body":"those associated with Acts 29 churches"},{"startTime":4273.166,"endTime":4275.433,"body":"while it's understandable that you can't use"},{"startTime":4275.533,"endTime":4276.6,"body":"church planting money"},{"startTime":4276.6,"endTime":4279.066,"body":"to aid churches that have already been planted"},{"startTime":4279.166,"endTime":4280.3,"body":"the least you can do"},{"startTime":4280.3,"endTime":4283.266,"body":"is not try to silence the voices of those harmed by"},{"startTime":4283.6,"endTime":4286.033,"body":"spiritual and sexual abuse within the church"},{"startTime":4286.2,"endTime":4289.466,"body":"a narcissistic and domineering pastor and so much more"},{"startTime":4289.766,"endTime":4291.4,"body":"you haven't asked to hear our stories"},{"startTime":4291.4,"endTime":4294.066,"body":"but we will share them we will not stay quiet"},{"startTime":4294.766,"endTime":4296.8,"body":"damn sound mic drop"},{"startTime":4297.3,"endTime":4298.266,"body":"my gosh"},{"startTime":4298.866,"endTime":4300.533,"body":"if somebody's gonna tell me to be quiet"},{"startTime":4300.533,"endTime":4303.966,"body":"I'm not gonna be quiet so I'm gonna be louder"},{"startTime":4304.666,"endTime":4305.6,"body":"wow I mean"},{"startTime":4305.6,"endTime":4307.066,"body":"we could end it right there"},{"startTime":4307.1,"endTime":4309.866,"body":"but I would love to know a little bit about"},{"startTime":4309.866,"endTime":4310.9,"body":"you know why you wanted to share"},{"startTime":4310.9,"endTime":4313.0,"body":"I mean that you kind of shared that"},{"startTime":4313.0,"endTime":4315.133,"body":"but is there anything else you'd like to share"},{"startTime":4315.133,"endTime":4317.066,"body":"about why you wanted to share your story"},{"startTime":4317.066,"endTime":4319.5,"body":"or anything that you'd like to share from your story"},{"startTime":4319.5,"endTime":4320.3,"body":"that"},{"startTime":4320.333,"endTime":4323.6,"body":"you think would be important for the audience to hear"},{"startTime":4323.966,"endTime":4326.9,"body":"I think the biggest take away is that"},{"startTime":4326.9,"endTime":4328.8,"body":"truth needs to be brought to light"},{"startTime":4328.8,"endTime":4332.566,"body":"no matter how uncomfortable or hard that might be"},{"startTime":4332.566,"endTime":4333.933,"body":"I know in the middle of it"},{"startTime":4333.933,"endTime":4337.2,"body":"I was so scared that Jay had actually"},{"startTime":4337.466,"endTime":4339.1,"body":"had a relationship with this lady"},{"startTime":4339.1,"endTime":4340.933,"body":"and I didn't want to know the truth"},{"startTime":4340.933,"endTime":4342.1,"body":"if that was the truth"},{"startTime":4342.1,"endTime":4343.8,"body":"and then once the truth was shared"},{"startTime":4343.8,"endTime":4345.933,"body":"I realized how important that was"},{"startTime":4345.933,"endTime":4348.266,"body":"that it that it couldn't stay hidden"},{"startTime":4348.5,"endTime":4350.9,"body":"I think the other big thing is that"},{"startTime":4351.166,"endTime":4352.766,"body":"when somebody shares with you"},{"startTime":4352.766,"endTime":4354.7,"body":"that they've experienced church abuse"},{"startTime":4354.7,"endTime":4356.0,"body":"or church trauma"},{"startTime":4356.266,"endTime":4359.6,"body":"even with within the same church that you're a part of"},{"startTime":4359.6,"endTime":4360.5,"body":"listening to them"},{"startTime":4360.5,"endTime":4362.266,"body":"and hearing their story is so important"},{"startTime":4362.266,"endTime":4364.133,"body":"and just because you didn't experience it"},{"startTime":4364.133,"endTime":4365.766,"body":"doesn't mean that it's not true"},{"startTime":4366.133,"endTime":4369.5,"body":"and I know that Acts 29 isn't gonna change"},{"startTime":4369.5,"endTime":4372.4,"body":"but I really hope that people realize that"},{"startTime":4372.4,"endTime":4374.566,"body":"they don't need to stay a part of these churches"},{"startTime":4374.566,"endTime":4378.0,"body":"and while it seems like this church is your entire life"},{"startTime":4378.0,"endTime":4380.5,"body":"and it takes up all of your time and energy"},{"startTime":4381.1,"endTime":4383.3,"body":"there is life outside of that church"},{"startTime":4383.3,"endTime":4386.066,"body":"and there is community believe it or not"},{"startTime":4386.066,"endTime":4388.4,"body":"outside of that church and you don't have to stay"},{"startTime":4388.4,"endTime":4390.966,"body":"where there is abuse happening"},{"startTime":4390.966,"endTime":4391.966,"body":"so good"},{"startTime":4392.6,"endTime":4394.3,"body":"I have one more question for you"},{"startTime":4394.566,"endTime":4400.1,"body":"ideally what would the response of X29 been for you"},{"startTime":4400.1,"endTime":4402.2,"body":"when they were made aware of what had gone on"},{"startTime":4402.2,"endTime":4403.666,"body":"I think the biggest thing honestly"},{"startTime":4403.666,"endTime":4404.366,"body":"was just one"},{"startTime":4404.366,"endTime":4405.5,"body":"hearing our stories"},{"startTime":4405.5,"endTime":4408.233,"body":"like nobody ever wanted to hear our stories"},{"startTime":4408.533,"endTime":4408.8,"body":"I know that"},{"startTime":4408.8,"endTime":4411.266,"body":"it's just Steph and I sharing on this podcast"},{"startTime":4411.266,"endTime":4414.133,"body":"but there are so many other people that were hurt"},{"startTime":4414.133,"endTime":4416.833,"body":"even more than a decade ago by Pastor J"},{"startTime":4417.166,"endTime":4418.933,"body":"in terrible ways so one"},{"startTime":4418.933,"endTime":4420.2,"body":"if X29"},{"startTime":4420.2,"endTime":4422.0,"body":"could have just been interested in hearing"},{"startTime":4422.0,"endTime":4423.166,"body":"what actually happened"},{"startTime":4423.166,"endTime":4426.0,"body":"and listening to us in an ideal world"},{"startTime":4426.0,"endTime":4430.5,"body":"it would have been nice for them to provide funds"},{"startTime":4430.5,"endTime":4433.633,"body":"for counseling for the people that were hurt"},{"startTime":4434.266,"endTime":4436.0,"body":"and not just oh yeah"},{"startTime":4436.0,"endTime":4438.933,"body":"we'll fly in Knoll so that he can be at a meeting"},{"startTime":4438.933,"endTime":4441.333,"body":"to figure out how we're gonna keep the church going"},{"startTime":4441.333,"endTime":4442.866,"body":"and keep the doors open"},{"startTime":4443.2,"endTime":4445.366,"body":"and people still are serving their guts out there"},{"startTime":4445.366,"endTime":4447.166,"body":"at that church and it's in"},{"startTime":4447.366,"endTime":4450.066,"body":"it's insanity to me that that's still happening"},{"startTime":4450.066,"endTime":4453.566,"body":"just yeah they would have just cared and"},{"startTime":4454.1,"endTime":4454.9,"body":"and"},{"startTime":4455.5,"endTime":4457.466,"body":"had some process in place"},{"startTime":4457.466,"endTime":4459.466,"body":"to hold these men accountable"},{"startTime":4459.733,"endTime":4461.766,"body":"Jay should never be a pastor again"},{"startTime":4461.933,"endTime":4463.866,"body":"in or outside of Acts 29"},{"startTime":4463.866,"endTime":4466.366,"body":"and there needs to be some sort of like you said"},{"startTime":4466.366,"endTime":4469.666,"body":"like paper trail to keep him from going elsewhere"},{"startTime":4469.733,"endTime":4471.166,"body":"and for me"},{"startTime":4471.566,"endTime":4474.433,"body":"it's frustrating that all of this has fallen on"},{"startTime":4475.166,"endTime":4477.8,"body":"congregants or even you and Stephanie"},{"startTime":4477.8,"endTime":4479.7,"body":"unpaid staff members"},{"startTime":4479.7,"endTime":4483.166,"body":"who had no authority in this setting"},{"startTime":4483.266,"endTime":4485.266,"body":"to raise the alarms"},{"startTime":4485.533,"endTime":4488.5,"body":"cause there's also relational nuance"},{"startTime":4488.9,"endTime":4492.066,"body":"with all parties involved in this story"},{"startTime":4492.066,"endTime":4494.3,"body":"like you guys were all up in each other's lives"},{"startTime":4494.3,"endTime":4499.0,"body":"to different degrees and the reality is as an outsider"},{"startTime":4499.0,"endTime":4501.9,"body":"like a third party that truly cares about the church"},{"startTime":4501.9,"endTime":4503.266,"body":"should have been able to come in"},{"startTime":4503.266,"endTime":4505.266,"body":"and also provide"},{"startTime":4505.666,"endTime":4508.466,"body":"Protection and resources for this woman"},{"startTime":4508.466,"endTime":4509.7,"body":"whose life was blown up"},{"startTime":4509.7,"endTime":4512.7,"body":"and that's her story to tell that we can't tell"},{"startTime":4512.866,"endTime":4515.0,"body":"because she's not here to tell it"},{"startTime":4515.133,"endTime":4516.933,"body":"but it was so public"},{"startTime":4516.933,"endTime":4520.333,"body":"like your whole town is aware of this scenario"},{"startTime":4520.333,"endTime":4522.3,"body":"so you're not outing a situation"},{"startTime":4522.3,"endTime":4524.533,"body":"this is public knowledge"},{"startTime":4524.533,"endTime":4528.566,"body":"it's been framed very publicly by parties involved"},{"startTime":4528.566,"endTime":4530.266,"body":"what went down at your church"},{"startTime":4530.266,"endTime":4530.566,"body":"yeah"},{"startTime":4530.566,"endTime":4533.633,"body":"and she gets to walk around with the scarlet letter now"},{"startTime":4533.933,"endTime":4536.3,"body":"and acts 29"},{"startTime":4536.3,"endTime":4539.566,"body":"gets to assist in that scarlet letter being on her"},{"startTime":4540.0,"endTime":4543.0,"body":"and there has been no education"},{"startTime":4543.0,"endTime":4545.433,"body":"or resources given to your community"},{"startTime":4545.566,"endTime":4549.533,"body":"in order to actually provide healing"},{"startTime":4549.533,"endTime":4550.5,"body":"and restoration"},{"startTime":4550.5,"endTime":4553.033,"body":"in these lives that have just been blown up"},{"startTime":4553.3,"endTime":4557.1,"body":"there's no pastoral care whatsoever involved in this"},{"startTime":4557.1,"endTime":4558.7,"body":"like yep"},{"startTime":4559.066,"endTime":4561.7,"body":"even for Jay like Pastor Jay"},{"startTime":4562.066,"endTime":4567.333,"body":"when we have a pastor who messes up"},{"startTime":4567.333,"endTime":4570.633,"body":"or who is abusive or does something corrupt"},{"startTime":4570.8,"endTime":4573.9,"body":"we just wash our hands that's the answer"},{"startTime":4573.9,"endTime":4575.466,"body":"we're just like yeah yeah"},{"startTime":4575.466,"endTime":4576.466,"body":"you're gonna have to go over there"},{"startTime":4576.466,"endTime":4577.566,"body":"and not be associated with us"},{"startTime":4577.566,"endTime":4579.4,"body":"cause you taint our image"},{"startTime":4579.4,"endTime":4583.066,"body":"that's not church that's not how we're supposed to act"},{"startTime":4583.3,"endTime":4584.433,"body":"so for me"},{"startTime":4584.7,"endTime":4587.0,"body":"what I would love to have seen is them to come in"},{"startTime":4587.0,"endTime":4591.533,"body":"and actually do the hard work of resourcing you all"},{"startTime":4591.533,"endTime":4592.833,"body":"educating you"},{"startTime":4592.933,"endTime":4596.8,"body":"checking to make sure that people are being cared for"},{"startTime":4597.166,"endTime":4600.066,"body":"because lives were blown up and y'all don't"},{"startTime":4600.2,"endTime":4602.833,"body":"there are appropriate"},{"startTime":4602.866,"endTime":4605.6,"body":"hard feelings associated with this"},{"startTime":4606.066,"endTime":4608.733,"body":"and it should not fall on the congregants"},{"startTime":4608.733,"endTime":4611.366,"body":"who were hurt by each other"},{"startTime":4611.366,"endTime":4614.066,"body":"and their pastor to have to sort through this"},{"startTime":4614.066,"endTime":4617.233,"body":"without any education or resources"},{"startTime":4617.866,"endTime":4620.2,"body":"so shame on you x 29 amen"},{"startTime":4621.966,"endTime":4624.533,"body":"this was part 2 of a three part series"},{"startTime":4624.533,"endTime":4627.066,"body":"featuring stories from Stephanie and Jill"},{"startTime":4627.4,"endTime":4630.366,"body":"join us tomorrow for the conclusion of this series"},{"startTime":4630.366,"endTime":4633.166,"body":"as we bring back both Jill and Stephanie"},{"startTime":4633.166,"endTime":4635.766,"body":"to talk about their time at this church together"},{"startTime":4635.866,"endTime":4639.066,"body":"and what it has looked like for them since leaving"},{"startTime":4639.4,"endTime":4641.666,"body":"for J Coil I'm Jonah Harris"},{"startTime":4641.666,"endTime":4644.9,"body":"and this has been the Bodies Behind the bus podcast"},{"startTime":4674.966,"endTime":4676.166,"body":"the views thoughts"},{"startTime":4676.166,"endTime":4678.7,"body":"and opinions expressed here are the speaker sound"},{"startTime":4678.7,"endTime":4680.9,"body":"and not those of this podcast"},{"startTime":4680.9,"endTime":4683.466,"body":"this content is presented for informational"},{"startTime":4683.466,"endTime":4686.7,"body":"and educational purposes that constitute fair use"},{"startTime":4686.933,"endTime":4690.2,"body":"commentary or criticism while we make every"},{"startTime":4690.2,"endTime":4691.3,"body":"effort to ensure that"},{"startTime":4691.3,"endTime":4693.0,"body":"the information shared is accurate"},{"startTime":4693.0,"endTime":4694.133,"body":"we welcome any comment"},{"startTime":4694.133,"endTime":4696.366,"body":"suggestion or correction of errors"}]}