This episode was made possible by our incredible donors. Their faithful support allows us to continue the work of amplifying the voices of religious abuse survivors. We committed early on never to monetize any of the stories, so we rely solely on donations from people like you. If you value the work and are able to contribute, you can become a monthly donor. At the link in our show notes another way to support bodies behind the bus is by following rating and reviewing the podcast It only takes a moment but has a tremendous impact on our reach. Thank you for daring to listen All right, welcome everybody back to the bodies behind the bus podcast we are honored today to have a very special guest dr. Jamar tisby Uh, he's got He's got a long list of things he does, from author, speaker, historian. Personally, I love his books. His latest book, The Spirit of Justice, is great. It is out. So we're going to dive into that and other topics. Before we start, Jamar, I would love for you to just give a quick intro about yourself and the work that you do.
Jemar Tisby:Well, the most important part on this episode, all of our names start with J. When we first got started, Janna said, J, are you ready? And that's, I don't have a nickname. I was never cool enough to have a nickname, but the closest we got was J. So I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm ready. But it was you. It was you. So we're gonna we're gonna navigate these confusing times on the podcast here. Um, who am I? Dr. Jamar Tisby. I'm a historian, author, speaker, and I focus on race, religion, social movements. And just try to kind of be a resource for people who want to go from, uh, followers to leaders, if you will, on this journey of justice. And I do that mainly through my substack, jamar tisby. substack. com. We'll put the plug in early so we don't forget later. And then, uh, I've also got several books out, Color of Compromise, How to Fight Racism, my most recent one, The Spirit of Justice. And I'm a professor of history at Simmons College of Kentucky, which is a historically black college founded in 1879 by a group of black Baptist ministers. Uh, so yeah.
Johnna Harris:So cool. And also. His newest book, Spirit of Justice. You have kids books. So he has like a little one for a little bit of an older child, which I have not dug into yet. I was thinking maybe for my 11 year old, but I did get the picture book because I have three little littles that are five and under. And we love it. It is so beautiful. So parents, if you're looking for resources for your kids, which you should be looking for resources for your kids is Especially now, this is a great time to buy that book. It's beautiful and just really like covers some really heavy topics with such like grace and beauty and honesty. I really appreciated that.
Jemar Tisby:So fun fact, uh, number one, Nadia, who did the illustrations. Absolutely gorgeous illustration, like it's just a piece of art, regardless of the content, and you just want it in your home, you might want to frame it and put it on the wall, um, but also, I co authored it with this guy named Malcolm Newsome, who I knew growing up, growing up, we were best friends since 5th grade, and when I say best friends, like, You couldn't say my name without saying his or his name without saying mine. We were, we were tied at the hip kind of best friends from fifth grade on through high school. So he is a coder, like he does computer stuff, but on the side, he developed this passion for writing kids books, which he's written several of his own. And when, uh, we were going to adapt The Spirit of Justice to a kid's book, uh, the publisher was like, hey, do you know anybody who could help you write this? Because I'd never written one before. He's like, actually, I have just the person. And it wasn't a, it wasn't a rubber stamp. Like, you have to be vetted. These are real deal publishers. They want real deal authors. And he passed with flying colors. So I got to co write my first picture book with my childhood's best friend. And I love that.
Johnna Harris:I love that too. You can like. You can tell that there was a lot of love and care that went into that book. So
Jemar Tisby:yeah, shout
Johnna Harris:out to Malcolm too. You crushed it.
Jemar Tisby:And I want to tell folks, like parents, like it's really, it number the, the spirit of justice is pictured as a wind blowing through time. And so we hit different historical eras. But also it's a conversation starter. Like this isn't necessarily a book you just hand to kids and say, go for it. It's a book you read with them and it sparks so many questions and it is a great learning and stretching exercise for adults to be able to explain something like terror or granite or slavery or slave ships. Right. Um, And to me, it's one of those things where you don't have to get it all right, and you don't have to do it in one conversation. But you do need something to sort of spark the conversation. And it can be the beginning of ongoing things, and the earlier we start, the better. So that's what I hope is the case when parents are using it or adults are using it with kids.
Jay Coile:Yeah, because now is not the time. We're not going through anything right now as a culture or society. And there's nothing happening at all.
Jemar Tisby:Like, seriously, like, how are you going to explain what's going on in the adult world and all the anxiety and all the changes that are, how are you going to do that? Well, it's really hard in the abstract, but when we sit down with a book and we talk about some historical themes and we even bring the Holy Spirit into it, right? Like there's a faith component and a spiritual component here. Then at least we can get it going. And I think that's a big thing, right? any hard conversation about a difficult time. You're gonna find any kind of way you can to avoid it or delay it. Well, now you have something in the, in both of these books. I'm really excited about, um, Stories of the Spirit of Justice, which is for kids 8 to 12. You have a resource, a jumping off point that, that Makes it a little less scary and there's author's notes and things like that for parents to access or adults to access So I think it's really usable is what i'm trying to say.
Jay Coile:We may some adults may need to start with the kids books Hey
Johnna Harris:Truly Truly and you know I appreciate well, I appreciate too. I think we I mean, I know we are in A season of lacking critical thinking, large scale, and a fear of critical thinking and curiosity. So anything that we can be doing to help embolden and encourage curiosity in our kids and our youth and each other. Heck yeah, let's do it. Like we're going for it. We're diving full in in the deep end. Um, and
Jemar Tisby:folks should know like, uh, this is coming from a place. So my first career I've had, I've had. Many different careers, uh, at this point, but my first out of college, I joined teach for America and became a 6th grade science and social studies teacher. And then, uh, I was a middle school principal and so grades 5 through 8, so I have a passion for younger kids. I have a passion for communicating these things, these truths to kids. Um, they're incredibly acute, uh, adept and astute about it. Wouldn't necessarily expect them to be. Um, so anyway, this is part of, like, my story and, um, what I view as part of my work is not just to talk to adults, many of whom are just now learning it, you know, way later than they should, but part of my passion for these kids books is that they would never have to say what so many of us have to say, which is, Why didn't anyone teach me this before?
Jay Coile:Yeah,
Jemar Tisby:I am. I just now learning this. Yeah,
Jay Coile:I actually, you know, I, your book, your spirit, I've, I've read, you know, um, all 3 of your books and the spirit of justice. Oh, I haven't read the kids books. I'm sorry. I've read. I haven't read the kids books yet, but the spirit of justice, what I loved about the book is that, you know, it. It brings up all these different times in American history and it paints, it gives us, it gives us two pictures. It shows us the reality of some of our heroes, right? Like some of the people that when I say heroes, I'm speaking from a perspective of, you know, white centered Christianity or what I was raised on growing up all throughout the South in school, like what we think about Thomas Jefferson, what we think about others. And then it paints that picture of saying. Yeah, but this is what really was going on behind the scenes and here are some names of people that existed in these spaces that you've never heard of who have these beautiful some of them you have, but most of these people I hadn't heard of that have this beautiful story of how they existed and fought and stood up for. You know, truth and and also in faith to in these beautiful ways, and I found it just refreshing because anyone I found it refreshing because it just speaks from such a place of authenticity, but it also opens up. This whole new narrative that I think we need to be talking about, right? Like about how we look and think about our culture and our history and all the different beautiful voices that have been eliminated or erased that don't need to be. They need to be brought forward so we can see the clear, the full picture. Um, so I mean, I guess I don't have a question there as much as like, I just want to say like, this isn't, I think this book is a great. A great, it's, it's landing at a time where we need it, where we need to reflect and look at it and spend time in it and ask those questions about why do we not know about these people? So,
Jemar Tisby:I mean, I have a question, uh, I'm always curious, like, if you can recall off the top of your head, putting you on the spot, any, any of those figures who maybe you hadn't heard of, uh,
Jay Coile:yeah, like the, uh, the, and I have them right here. They're highlighted. Was it Phyllis Wheatley? And, um, the other poet, Hamilton, I forgot her name, her last name was Hamilton, and I don't know her name, I highlighted some of their poetry, and I love writing poetry, and I love poetry, and I love the context of like, was it Phyllis Leetley who released this book, and the book was like, So well received that people were like, well, this couldn't be a, this, no way this was written by a black person and they sued her. Right. They tried to sue her and even her poetry. I didn't read all of her poetry, but the poetry in the book, like there is parts of it where you can tell she's conflicted. Right. But that part about her justice and wanting justice is so clear in the poems that you've, that you've, uh, yeah. Uh, that you've listed in the book, so I think just, you know, that understanding that those two beautiful, like beautiful writers, like somewhat people who've just understand and wrote from a place and perspective of where they were, like, we need to hear about that. Like, we need to open, have that, uh, available to us, and so I think those two really, um, stood out for me early on in the book, and I was like, it made me want to go find more of their, more of their poetry and more about them as individuals. So.
Jemar Tisby:Excellent. Thank you. I'm just curious. I appreciate that. Yeah.
Johnna Harris:Yeah. I have been like, ruminating on Anna Julia Cooper.
Jemar Tisby:I
Johnna Harris:was like, dang, she was so cool. Yes. And then I looked up more about her and she died at 105. It's like, dang, she lived a long, beautiful legacy and Jay, she was also a foster and adoptive parent. So it's just like so many amazing things about all these people that I feel like just so excited that it was that you were able to put it in one place for people to actually be able to bear witness to these incredible stories. And right before we started recording, I was telling Jamar that this book for me has been like a needed kick in the butt, particularly the stories from black women that just were so steadfast and faithful in the face of Horrors. And I really would love to kind of like kick off a little bit of our conversation talking about Merle Evers Williams right at the beginning of the book. That is something that I keep coming back to pretty much daily. Her resilience and also hope. Um, in the recording conversation that you did, was it the, um, museum in DC? Was that where you were when this was recorded?
Jemar Tisby:Uh, Jackson, Mississippi, um, it was the grand opening of the Mississippi Civil Rights Museum, which is the only state funded civil rights museum in the country in Mississippi of all places. That was a, a, a grand opening surrounded by controversy for a couple of reasons. One, would Mississippi really do a good job telling the truth? about civil rights. Uh, they, you know, the, the white power structure had done a lot of work to hide that truth. So there was a little bit of like, uh, is this going to whitewash history? Like literally. And then the other part of the controversy was this was during Trump's first presidency and the governor at the time who's Republican invited Trump. To the grand opening, which was just this, like, no, complete contradiction of what he stood for and what this museum is supposed to be standing for. Trump did end up coming, uh, they, they tried to thread the needle, so he took a private tour and wasn't a part of the big public. Grand opening, but still the damage was done. People like John Lewis withdrew, uh, the local congressman representing that area withdrew, but Merle Evers Williams still came. People might remember her name because of her husband, Medgar Evers, who was assassinated in front of their home, y'all. Can you imagine? Like, you're a civil rights family because this isn't just one person, right? And He gets killed. She is the one who goes out on their front doorstep to find him bleeding, calls the hospital. He's carrying a stack of t shirts that say, Jim Crow must go. And then his last words in the hospital, he's trying to get up. He said, turn me loose. She's the one who finds him. And that's back in 1960. She doesn't stop. She doesn't stop. And so she becomes a Global human rights activist and she comes to this grand opening, which is shrouded in controversy. Number one, they did the museum really well, tells the honest truth. Number two, put yourself in her shoes because in that museum, they have the very rifle used to assassinate her husband. She's standing steps away from it. And then number three, she goes and gives this inspiring public speech. And afterwards, I'm part of a small, um, press conference that she's giving just for journalists. And somebody asked her, you know, how does race relations now in the 2000s compare to, you know, the Civil Rights Movement 1960s? And she said something very depressing. She said, well, I, I'm seeing things now that I hoped I'd never see again. The negativism coming from the highest places, a reference to the White House. And, um, She says, I'm a bit weary, which was an understatement because she's in her mid 80s, and this is back in 2017, and by the way, she's still alive, so history's not that long ago, folks. Please don't think it's just black and white pictures. There are people living and breathing today who were part of the Civil Rights Movement. And then she says something totally unexpected. She sounded a note of hope, and she said, This phrase, she said, but it's something about the spirit of justice. Then she gives this powerful analogy of a horse that's been put out to pasture, but then it hears the bell and she said, I like to think it's the bell of freedom and all of a sudden the back becomes straight and it becomes stiff. And then she has this phrase and you become determined all over again. And I just melted. It's just like, how, like this woman in her ninth decade of life who, whose husband was killed for the cause, who still, you know, she's in the sunset of her life and should be enjoying drinks with umbrellas in them, right? And here she is saying, I'm determined all over again to resist. And I said, why, how, what manner of person is this? It's the spirit of justice. And so that's leads off the book and it animates all these stories of people throughout our history who have tapped into that spirit of justice to resist racism, injustice, and oppression. And I want the story to inform. And inspire and lead to action for us, because if they can do it, then we actually, I think, have a, a debt to history. To keep that going.
Jay Coile:Yeah, I mean, that was beautiful. I remember that at the beginning of the book and, um, I mean, it does like that's why I said like with the book. It's it's just this there. That spirit of justice is throughout the book, but it's just so encouraging and it's encouraging because it's depressing to say that because a lot of these people fought for things that they really never saw in their lifetime. But yet they still fought for it in the way that you frame and bring us into the story. It just makes you reflect on the beauty of. What justice is and what it really means to fight for justice and how that thread of justice is really a collective thread throughout all of humanity. And it's not just isolated to our time. And I know personally, like, I can get very discouraged when I look and see things and, you know, I could only imagine how you feel, especially where we are right now. I can't even put myself in that position. I don't have the ability to do that. And, and it's just amazing how you're, you're almost. Telling us you're giving us a chance to exhale and say, you know what, like, we've got heroes, like, we can look to these people. And that I think is so remarkable. But when you wrote this book, like, especially in the climate, I don't know when you wrote it, but especially when the climate that we're in, like. Did you ever want to just give up? Did you ever be like, I don't think I can do this? Like, cause you've, you've done so much work in this, this part. I know you're a historian by nature, right? Or by profession, and that's a passion of yours. But did you ever just think, you know what, I'm too exhausted to have this new dialogue?
Jemar Tisby:When it came to the book, I was eager to get it out there. Because it was, I just thought it was going to be what we needed. In this, particularly this political climate, right? Like, 2020 came around, literally historic racial justice uprising. I don't think people appreciate that enough. Like, these were bigger. Protests in the civil rights movement and also they were multi racial. I mean you had protests in Seattle We're like just white people are Marching for black lives, right? Like that's that's new in American history. It was deeply deeply significant But then no sooner does 2020 Change into 2021 than you get January 6th And an attempted insurrection. So what does that tell us? Number one, it's a historical pattern. For every, uh, step of racial progress, there is an equal and often disproportionate backlash. And this time it came really quickly. I think we're still living in that backlash right now. Actually, we're still in backlash of the first black president, but that's another topic. Um, And then, also, you get a whole bunch of people who were activated for the first time in 2020, who found out, oh, this isn't a quick fix. Like, now we're seeing all those companies that, that, that committed themselves to DEI and racial justice, walking it back, ooh, so quick. In 2025 with a, with a president again, right? And so that, that begs the question, well, how do you keep going when it looks like you're not winning? How do you continue when you realize this problem isn't going away very quickly? And as a matter of fact, we probably lose more than we win. More often than not, and that's where the spirit of justice comes in. Like, to me, what's, what's, what's remarkable about history? Evil, unfortunately, is pretty predictable. It's, it always shows up. People mistreating one another, abusing power, all those things. To me, what's truly remarkable, what's, what's even breathtaking? Is that the spirit of justice always shows up too. There are always people willing to resist and push back, no matter the odds, no matter the consequences, no matter the risk. And that's what I want people to read about in true stories. Like these are, it was, uh, just a little bit of behind the scenes. The title was set, the spirit of justice stories of faith, race, and resistance. But if you look at it now. The subtitle is slightly different. The Spirit of Justice, true stories of faith raising. We added that at the last minute, like it was already up for pre order, and we had to go back and change all the backlinks and everything. But we wanted to emphasize like, y'all, this is, this is not some fantasy character superheroes we're making up. These are real people just like you and me, who tapped into that power, that spirit of justice to resist in their day. So that we can resist in order,
Jay Coile:how do you, how do you pronounce what was Benjamin's last? Is it Banneker? Is that yeah. So I was, I was also impressed. Um, you know, again, I mean, I grew up in Texas, Georgia, Florida, New Jersey. I grew up all over and history. Was very white centered and everything that I learned. So Thomas Jefferson was an amazing person. And then you learn about the truth about Thomas Jefferson and, and who he was. And, and, and I mean, uh, it's just a lot and, and what I loved about how you approached him is the letters that he sent to Jefferson and like Jefferson, of course, didn't know. Appeased to his letters by any means. I think you have a sentence in there that Jefferson wrote back and it almost kind of seemed like not passive aggressive, but he was just dismissing the letter, uh, the banter sent him and, but I was impressed with the fact that he wrote, like, he kept like it. See, I, you didn't go into how long he wrote him, but he did write him. And I thought about, like, being in that place, the. Courage it would take for him to write those letters and to send them and to continue to send them is kind of mind blowing Considering the time and where he was
Jemar Tisby:and Benjamin Banneker is a remarkable individual. He is brilliant So he wrote these almanacs that gave weather and astronomy and all this stuff and basically self taught. I mean, as a black person, he's not going to Harvard or Princeton or anything at that point. And, uh, he also is, is famous for building a clock out of wood that accurately kept time. Like he just, Can you imagine? Anyway, um, and he, he himself had achieved a certain level of privilege due to his brilliance and he became a public figure, but these were folks who understood the collective nature of justice and it's like, I can't get mine and my people are not free. So he wrote to Thomas Jefferson. He had enough. Kind of clout and access to write letters to Jefferson and have them read and he's basically making the case like yo We should be free, you know and Jefferson writes him back. And yeah, it's kind of patronizing and dismissive but He's, Ben, Benjamin Banneker is a powerful example of the different ways of resistance. So that's one of the things I wanted to highlight in the book is like, we tend to think of resistance simply as like public protest, a march, a boycott, a whatever, right? But in the first chapter in the introduction, I talk about Uh, three different ways of resistance. I talk about resistance, advocacy, and activism. I did that because I wanted you to understand why I'm including seemingly random folks whose actions we wouldn't necessarily categorize as some sort of, um, protest. And so resistance is honestly anything we do to survive in a culture, in a society that seeks to oppress and diminish us. And so there's online this account called The Knapp. ministry in AP. Uh, and she's advocating for rest as resistance because in a nation that has historically literally exploited the labor of black people and many others, resting is protest. Resting is resistance. And so I, I include in the book, the story of, um, They call, it's Anthony, Isabella and William, William was the son of Anthony and Isabella who had been taken, kidnapped from Africa and brought to, uh, North America, enslaved and they had a son and he's. called the first truly African American, uh, at least in British colonial Virginia, somebody born to African parents in North America. So why include a family like that? Like the only historical record we have is like nine words long that these two were married and they had a son, William, who was baptized. And How is that in a book about the spirit of justice? Because having a family and raising a child and teaching the child pride and who they are and dignity is a form of resistance in a society that wants to say that you're less than, that you're only destined for bondage. Right? But there's also another level advocacy. This is more conscious, like, a lot of the differences, which aren't fine lines, uh, are just in terms of your intentionality here. So a lot of us do advocacy work. You're doing advocacy work with this entire podcast, right? You're bringing these stories to light. And your, your goal is to reduce the, the harm there. And center the people who've been victimized by People who have abused their power. That's advocacy. Um, the people who support your work, uh, whether financially or sharing this, that's advocacy. Even hashtag activism before it was all filtered and censored and now we probably can't organize online anymore. That's a form of advocacy. But there's another level, which is what we traditionally think of as activism, right? The people on the front lines, which again, doesn't mean being in the streets. It just means it's probably the bulk of your work. It's probably what you sense as your mission and your calling. It's much more hands on and direct action. And so I wanted to include the breadth of that because we got Frederick Douglass in here, who escaped slavery and wrote autobiographies and, uh, helped to bring about abolition. And we got Benjamin Banneker in here who wrote letters. Right? So just to cover the broad swath of what it looks like to resist.
Jay Coile:And you include some fire that Frederick Douglass said about Christianity, which was, which was great. I don't want to read it. When he called out, called out for white Christians are supporting slavery and what he had to say, it was pretty impressive. You have to read that section. That was, I read that and I was like, man, this needs to be like on a t shirt or something. It's a long quote, but we need to stop. I mean, people don't,
Jemar Tisby:it's
Jay Coile:just such great, front and
Johnna Harris:back of the t shirt, all the t shirt, anyways,
Jay Coile:sorry,
Jemar Tisby:sorry, just like stop where you are, I need to read your t shirt, yes, exactly, yes,
Johnna Harris:something that, um, I have been mulling over as I read the book and as we're trying to navigate what it looks like to show up, In these current times now and also carrying in all the way of survivors of abuse within Western evangelical spaces, which it ranges the different types of abuse that have been featured in the stories here on this podcast, something that strikes me is a majority because it's White Western evangelicalism. A lot of the survivors that we talked to are white and because of the way that we were raised and the education that we had, it feels like we're starting. So sometimes it can feel like, oh, this is the beginning. Like we got like we're in the. No, this has been going on forever. Like since the Bible, people have been standing up and resisting. And there are so many stories of incredible people and so many movements that are already in place that we can join, partner with, learn from, find encouragement and hope in. And so I think my gut, when You know, like I, I knew when the election was happening, who was going to win, like, I just, I knew it. I felt it. I think I was living in like this little bit of a delusional cloud, like maybe not. Um, but I knew it intrinsically. And then November 6th, 7th, I felt like. I can't, I don't think I've ever felt the feeling that I felt on those days. Um, I don't even know if I actually have words for it yet, but it was deeply heavy and hopeless. And actually that was when I started reading the book and read about the spirit of justice and was like, you know, I'm experiencing this, like even with abuse in my past, I, Have this different version of what it looks like to advocate or what it looks like to show up or have hope that is so tainted by white evangelicalism and reading these stories was such like a freedom for me, to be honest with you, it felt like it gave Jay, I think that was a really, really apt way to describe it, like an, an opportunity to exhale when everything around me felt like it was like pressing in. And that's something so beautiful about the Holy Spirit and God in these moments is that breakthrough where God comes into this dark moment where everything feels like it's pressing in and it's like, cannot be contained, like light has to shoot out. And so. I don't know, I don't know, um, where I'm going with this outside of if you're a listener and you're a survivor of abuse, many of you are, I think that it will do your soul so much good to bear witness to the stories in this book, um. I know we get a lot of messages from people who are like, Where do I go next? I feel so hopeless. I'm scared. There's a lot of fear right now. Rightfully so. Like, I'm not trying to, um, diminish that in any way. It is scary. We're seeing scary, scary theology become, um, become people, people that believe that are becoming top Levels of our government right now. Um, but also they have been, uh, for a while. It's just more emboldened right now to be out loud. Um, but yeah, when you think
Jay Coile:when you think John of it, that education at this moment is a form of resistance, right? I mean, yes, really? Absolutely. I mean, I don't know if you agree with that, Jamar, but I, I think when, like, reading your book, like, when people say, like, where do I start education, like, educating yourself about the history of our, our country, of religion, history of religion, how those things are entwined, and just giving yourself a space to just learn and, and see what, what maybe you didn't know or what's been hidden.
Jemar Tisby:So I want to see if I can remember to hit three points that y'all brought up. One is going back to something you brought up, Jay, about discouragement. Two is, uh, what you were talking about, Jonna, about learning from people who've been through this before. And then, uh, three is about education as resistance. I won't remember them, but you'll help me remember them as I talk, okay? So, Jay, you asked, like, was there ever a moment where I felt discouraged, like I couldn't finish the book? Not in relation to writing the book, but to your point, Jonah, I don't think I ever felt the way I felt. In the days after the election, I didn't necessarily think he was going to win. I did, I held out hope. I'll say that. And then when he did, after being twice impeached, after not only not becoming more political or presidential in his speech, but becoming worse, after seeing all of the absolutely bonkers statements that he makes, and non sequiturs in his rambling speeches, like, he's just After all that we saw, and I think the, the, the, the sort of disillusionment came more because I had worked so hard to try to bring attention to why not only this man, but this entire movement. Bad for people all of us even if you supported him It's gonna be bad for you as we're now seeing and so that sense of like you put everything you've got Into something and I think our level of disappointment and exhaustion After immediately after the election is commensurate to the work we put in to prevent this very outcome So the people I roll with we were all just So heartbroken, in a deeper way, even than 2016. So that's the closest, I mean, I never really got to the point of quitting, but even now, I'm still in, I think, a season of grieving and lamenting. And I think that's really important, because we, we so quickly want to jump to, Okay, let's resist, let's, let's activate, let's respond. Y'all, I, I was doing that, for like, At least a year straight and even more intensely as we got closer to the election. I don't have that to give there's no more to draw on in the well There's some recovery and healing that has to happen then grief just like losing a person or relationship. It's not a linear thing It comes in waves. And so I felt that grief with The election but I felt it again with the inauguration And I'm like, why am I here again? It's like, oh, well, there's a fresh kind of wound here. So that's one thing. The second thing was learning from folks who've been through this. My little soapbox here is leading up to the election and immediately after, people were all, we're talking about Bonhoeffer and the Confession Church and how much like Germany this is, you know, when the Nazis came to power and everything like that. Obviously, yes, there are parallels and there's a lot to learn there. But I'm also sitting there like, um, We don't have to cross an ocean or a continent to look at faithful Christians resisting an autocratic authoritarian ruler. We have a confessing church right here, and it's called the Black Church. And as a matter of fact, people are quick to point out if they know these stories, Bonhoeffer spent some time in Harlem going to a black church and got a lot of his framework and lens for public justice from the black Christian tradition. And yet you have people in the United States in the 2020s saying, well, we got to go learn from the Germans and what they did. And still overlooking, but here's the reason why white folks, if they took seriously learning resistance from black Christians, they would have to admit why there's such a thing as the black church in the first place. You can sit with that. You can read The Color of Compromise if you want to go back into that history. And then the third thing about, um, education as a resistance. Absolutely. Y'all, we got to think about freedom schools. We've got to think about non traditional pathways of education. The great part is we have this digital ecosystem where we can deliver it. through things like podcasts or video courses or what have you. We have routes. What we're slow on the uptake is that the traditional routes, particularly of schools, is not happening there anymore. I mean, it's going to be fraught. Um, what I really think is necessary, we have to have rows of parks of education. In other words, in these states where they're outlawing books, banning books, where they're saying this content is not okay, which is increasingly stringent, right? The lines are moving, that just basic education, what did I, didn't, didn't we just hear about, like, they're not gonna be celebrating, like, Black History Month in some places, things of that nature? Yeah,
Johnna Harris:I think they actually put MLK Day into the list. MLK Day, yeah!
Jemar Tisby:Yeah. Like, the stuff that, We got used to we're not gonna be able to do anymore and we are caught on the heat on our heels with this But we need to be Subversive with this education and that's where these books come in. Like this is not just oh I want to learn more about like no, this is actually subversive history In a, in an oppressive regime, and we got to get creative about communicating that to adults and to kids. I remembered all three. Good
Johnna Harris:job! I was just reading about, um, non violent, like, across the globe, non violent resistance to authoritarianism. And one of them, I think it was Chile, I hope I'm doing this right, Uh, one of the main things that moved the needle in that time, in that space, underneath that, Authoritarian government was artists, poets, um, authors, people that were creating art that actually encouraged like a better view of humans and neighborliness. And so it was actually just like bringing softness. Back into picture into the frame and I was thinking about us now as just Americans in general and how Needed that is and how neat like I feel like I need that I need to stare at something soft and beautiful every day for probably hours at a time right now instead of my blank white wall Well, I do doom spiral myself, so Yeah
Jemar Tisby:Uh, yeah, so here's another one of my theories. Um, every social movement has at least three components. Uh, the, the academy, the assembly, and the arts. So the academy references scholarship, knowledge production. Doesn't necessarily have to be in a formal. College university setting, but the people, the theorizers, uh, to help us understand and give us frameworks for, for understanding what's happening. Then there is the assembly by which I mean, um, both the political assembly and the religious assembly, the gatherings, the communities of people that can work for change. Those have to be involved as well. And then there's the arts, uh, as you referenced, uh, the things that bring softness and beauty. And ultimately what they do is they, they remind us of empathy. Right? And how cruel, how very un Christian. There's somebody who wrote a book called Toxic Empathy. And that has now become part of the nomenclature. And what it's referring to is empathy that is taken too far, where you are having compassion for ungodly, unbiblical things. And it's not being, first of all, the book is way harder edged, right, than that. And the way that phrase toxic empathy is being deployed is very anti human. Um, ways. Yeah. You have abusive in so many
Jay Coile:ways, pastors who are taking hold of that and saying, empathy is a sin and
Jemar Tisby:good lord. It's just, uh, what chapter verses that , you know, that like the, the,
Johnna Harris:the only art that the author of that book has stared at in their lifetime is Thomas Kincaid. We all
Jemar Tisby:Thomas Kin,
Johnna Harris:that's it.
Jemar Tisby:Hotel room art. Yeah. Somewhere. Oh, wow.. That's exactly right. Sorry. I had.
Johnna Harris:Slightly snarky. I'm working on that. I would love to hear. I appreciate that. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, because I've also been really considering, um, well, something that Bodies Behind the Bus is always considering, and one of our pillars is that we believe that storytelling, like bearing witness to the stories of people that stood up for what was right in the midst of abuse and slander, terror, I mean, in the book. Like. The stories you are covering are violence, death, in the face of death, um, are the first step. So just being able to witness and bear witness to those. You don't have to make a statement one way or the other of how you think about actions or whatever. Just being able to sit and witness is the first step to societal change. What, how does that hit you when I say that? Like, do you, can you add nuance when you hear that? Does that sound like something that resonates with you?
Jemar Tisby:Absolutely. That's, that's absolutely the ethos behind the book, The Spirit of Justice. So one of the words that I want us to use more often as people of faith is the word witness. That's what these folks are doing. They are witnesses to truth. They are witnesses to justice. We saw this recently with Reverend Buddy in the National Cathedral speaking truth to power 40 feet away, right? And we hold up. Her sermon as an example, uh, and, and why, because we need those stories for ourselves. And we look at that stance. And by the way, who does history remember? History remembers the despots and the villains and the people who stood up to them. There's really no in between.
Johnna Harris:Mm hmm.
Jemar Tisby:So, standing on the sidelines, being quiet, you know, trying to quietly work for, okay. Okay, that's that's how you want to frame what you're doing fine but the people we look up to the people we remember the people who We hold up as examples are the ones who lived a witness and stood up at great risk Now our risks are gonna look differently y'all I am NOT saying everybody needs to preach a sermon with the president in the building, right? But What's your equivalent? Yeah. What does it look like where you are?
Jay Coile:I think that's telling too, 'cause the, when she, when she made that, when she preached that sermon, that was before. It was before the inauguration, right? In my timeline. Yeah. So then he goes, it was right after, right? Was it right after the day after? Was it the day after? Okay. Mm-hmm . My timeline's off. Oh, I
Johnna Harris:stared at that quite a bit
Jay Coile:because the day before, you know, you had all the people of power, like all the tech bros that have and control the information that we receive there, you know, at his. Basically at his feet, uh, and, and, and I think what I loved about your book to go back to your book is the voices. Again, there are some pretty powerful names in there, uh, are names of history that we remember, but the voice, especially like the poets that you referenced that I, that I loved, they're just, they're normal people. They're people that are existing in spaces and they're finding ways to share their stories and be a witness and a time that their bodies. Their whole souls were being repressed, they were in slavery, they were demoralized, beaten, you name it, the worst of the worst. And here are these beautiful stories. And so, like, that's why, like, when Reverend Buddy, like, her sermon is so powerful because, granted, like you said, we're not all going to have to speak to the President, but it can be as simple as just saying something kind and compassionate and truthful in a setting Where you know there are going to be people that are going to say, I don't believe that, or I don't want that. You could tell the disdain on that man's face. Good lord, yes. Their whole family. Like it was, I mean it was comical. Like
Jemar Tisby:when the bible says like keeping burning coals on someone's head. Like that's what it looks like. Yeah. You could.
Jay Coile:So you posted something on your sub stack a couple of days ago, uh, about the difference between Christian nationalism and like the spirit of Christ. I don't know how you worded it. I apologize. Yeah, I used
Jemar Tisby:the Frederick Douglass language, uh, the Christianity of Christ, Christian Christ. That's what it was. White Christian nationalism.
Jay Coile:And that was great. Like, I was like, man, like just starting to have that near talk about what are the differences. Let's just discuss them. Like, let's look at them in a way and have a conversation about what we're seeing. Um, I think it's just beautiful ways for us to start a dialogue with each other about these things we're seeing.
Johnna Harris:It's also something that comes to mind in this conversation is Christian nationalism is just not compelling. Like, it's not something that is beautiful or I cannot. I cannot accept that someone looks at Christian nationalism and experiences in any way the Holy Spirit or Jesus or the freedom that comes with Jesus, um, and watching Reverend Buddy Or is it Reverend Bishop? Bishop buddy. She's a bishop. Um, preach biblical truths. Like it was so soft, so beautiful, so compassionate. Um, that was compelling. Like, you know, Christian nationalism does not Hold on to any hope. There is no hope. It is broken and you feel broken when you look at it. And I, I cannot accept that anyone that is following Christian nationalism right now does not subconsciously somewhere in their soul, see that brokenness while participating in that religion. But then this again, this light. While we're all getting crushed in this moment, this light comes through the gospel through preaching God's words back at our country. That's it. Yeah. Like we, we appreciate, like we stand up for the oppressed. We love mercy, we fight for mercy, we stand for mercy. Like these are beautiful, hopeful things. And in that moment, her just literally preaching biblical truths. Without there was no condemnation. It is bonkers to me that someone even heard if you heard condemnation in that that is something to be curious about in your own heart. What turned that into condemnation? And that's an opportunity for you to ask more questions and get to know yourself better and maybe get to know God better to through relationship. But, um, like. That the fact that she could do that was the witness. So what does it look like for those of us? And I know some of us that are listening right now do not still claim to have faith in Jesus. And again, I just want to leave space for that. Like you are still welcome here. Your story is still welcome here. We want to be in relationship with you still. And we still see you as equally valuable and. A beautiful part of this conversation, but for those of you who do claim Jesus, still, I think a huge part of resistance for us is just preaching the gospel through our lives, through our words, treating each other with respect and dignity, reminding each other that we are image bearers of God. All of us like that in that moment, what the Bishop did was resistance. It was big, but it wasn't a grandstand. It was the Bible. She literally preached the Bible in that moment. That was my grandstand. Sorry guys, I just had my little
Jemar Tisby:soapbox. No apologies necessary. That's exactly what And, you know, I think as humans we're wired to need examples like that. Like Movements don't work if you don't have figureheads, not because we just, we need somebody to cheer on per se, but because we need somebody to show us what it looks like in action. We need someone who brings together the values that we espouse and stand for, and who can model how to do it in real life, in real time. And so that's what I think she was doing. And at the same time, she's part of a tradition. You know, she's part of a tradition of, uh, Christians who have spoken truth to power, which by the way, you know, speak the truth in love from Ephesians, to build up the body. There's a point. There's a goal. There's a telos to it. It's health. Right? There's, there's a healing that comes with truth telling, even when The truth hurts. Uh, and part of the tradition she's in is the Christian tradition that, in the U. S., has been really exemplified in many ways by the Black Christian tradition, which has all its faults and flaws because, guess what, it has people. But when it comes to resisting things like white Christian nationalism and racism and political injustice, yeah, the Black church has a lot of experience with that. And so I would encourage folks to, to look at people like, I think of Sister Thea Bowman, who is another one of my historical heroes, along with Fannie Lou Hamer. Sister Thea Bowman is a Catholic nun who's black, which is rare, and she's born and raised in Mississippi. She's brilliant, eventually gets her PhD, right? But there's this particular, uh, moment that, that she's really known for, where she spoke truth to power to the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. So she's in a room. At their meeting, hundreds, almost all white men, right, and she's talking about racial reconciliation, but not just like, hey, let's get together. She's talking in the spirit of black power, which is basically, leave us alone, white Catholic power structure. Let us serve our people the way we know how. And benefit from it because you're going to get good stuff out of this too by letting us do it. Stop trying to control and be colonial and imperialistic in even in the U. S. with your parishes in Black neighborhoods. Let Black folks do it. She spoke this and she literally sang. Right, like this is on YouTube, you can find it, and it was reminiscent of what Bishop Buddy did, right? There's been people throughout history who sat in the room and said what needed to be said. People who had Relative places of, uh, disenfranchisement and less power still at great risk to themselves. Speaking Jesus words back to these Christians, back to these powerful people. And that's, here's the thing, y'all. That ain't just for Bishop Buddy. It's not just for Theobald. It's for you. You have the spirit of justice. In the introduction, I say for, for Christians, we can call it the Holy Spirit of justice. We're not Pentecostal enough these days. We don't believe the indwelling of the Spirit empowering us for the work that God has set out for us to do, that only we uniquely can do. So it doesn't have to be the sermon. It doesn't have to be the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. But I promise you, if you are a follower of Jesus, there is work for you. And it's actually, here's the, here's the paradoxical thing. It's going to be hard work, but it's work that you enjoy. It's going to be work that you enjoy because it resonates with your soul. This is what I'm trying to get people who are on the sidelines or the edges to understand. It's like, it's not onerous when it is in alignment with who Jesus made you to be and by the way, gifted you to do. You remember that part in Corinthians where it says, um, that we have spiritual gifts? Do we believe that anymore? I don't know, because I remember being in high school, these evangelical youth groups used to take that inventory. He's like, what's my spiritual? You remember that? Yes.
Johnna Harris:It's still happening. I visited an Assemblies of God church and they, like in the, uh, like meet the church meeting, they handed out spiritual gifts.
Jemar Tisby:Nice. Okay. I mean, it's a start. It's a start. Like, at least it gets us thinking about it. But we should remember the last part of that verse, it says, you're given these spiritual goods for a purpose, for the common good, is literally what one translation says. So it's not just about personal piety. It's not just about what role am I going to take in my local Congress, it's for the common good. So, so the beautiful part of this thing is why can people like Merle Evers Williams say, and you become determined all over again, because she's knows the secret, which is when you are in alignment with God's will and work for justice and liberation, you are the most free. You are the most fulfilled. You're the most at peace, even in the midst of a storm. It's addictive. And I keep telling people, I got one sermon in me, which is that the more justice you do, the more Jesus you get. So you want to know Jesus. You want to know his company, his companionship, his power. You do what he did, and he's right there with you. And that's the gospel, but you won't know it until you do it.
Jay Coile:Beautiful. Perfect way to end our conversation. I have so much more. Inject
Johnna Harris:that into our veins. So much more I could ask
Jay Coile:you, but I wouldn't be respectful of the time. And this was a beautiful conversation. Um, I really, we really appreciate it, honestly. Thank you for your work. Thank you for what you do. Um, and uh, it's just encouraging to have this conversation. I would encourage everyone to pick up. Not only the spirit of justice. Remind me of the kid's book's title, Stu, so we can put it. It
Jemar Tisby:took me ages to figure out which was which the picture book I am the spirit of justice Okay, the book for tweens is called stories of the spirit of justice and a quick word on that It is so user friendly it is Not chapter specifically but historical eras where I begin with three or four pages of context Let you know what's going on in that historical era then I give you these like mini biographies and it's so cool for kids to just read one or two at a time before bed or in the morning or whatever it might be and then you can be reading along with the adult version or even the tweens version. It's good for adults too and I just think it's again Really accessible and, and, and stories of the spirit of justice is something you can hand to, to young people and have them read on their own and then just talk about it and discuss it and use it again as a jumping off point. So all those are on sale wherever you get your books.
Johnna Harris:We'll put links to those in the show notes. So go snag it. And we'll also put a link to Jamar's sub stack. So go subscribe. Yes.
Jemar Tisby:That's where I do all my hot takes, my soap boxes, the spiciness. And I'm on there two to three times a week. And it's the best way to support me, especially in the social media streets with these tech bros doing all kinds of wacky things. You cannot always find me online. So subscribe at jamartisby. substack. com.
Johnna Harris:Absolutely. We'll have all those links. Thank you so much. Really appreciate this conversation and your work. And I know so many of our listeners are going to be so pumped to have heard this conversation because they have benefited greatly from the work that you have done. So,
Jemar Tisby:thank you. Well, I just finally made it. I was on BBTV! It was huge. Thank you.
Jay Coile:The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed here are the speaker's own and not those of this podcast. This content is presented for informational and educational purposes that constitute fair use, commentary, or criticism. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comment, suggestion, or correction of errors.