{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.35,"endTime":5.01,"body":"This episode was made possible"},{"startTime":1.35,"endTime":5.01,"body":"by our incredible donors."},{"startTime":5.19,"endTime":9.27,"body":"Their faithful support allows us to"},{"startTime":5.19,"endTime":9.27,"body":"continue the work of amplifying the"},{"startTime":9.27,"endTime":11.7,"body":"voices of religious abuse survivors."},{"startTime":11.82,"endTime":16.68,"body":"We committed early on never to monetize"},{"startTime":11.82,"endTime":16.68,"body":"any of the stories, so we rely solely"},{"startTime":16.68,"endTime":18.51,"body":"on donations from people like you."},{"startTime":18.84,"endTime":22.83,"body":"If you value the work and are able to"},{"startTime":18.84,"endTime":22.83,"body":"contribute, you can become a monthly"},{"startTime":22.83,"endTime":24.9,"body":"donor at the link in our show notes."},{"startTime":25.14,"endTime":28.23,"body":"Another way to support bodies"},{"startTime":25.14,"endTime":28.23,"body":"behind the bus is by following."},{"startTime":28.47,"endTime":31.17,"body":"Rating and reviewing the podcast."},{"startTime":31.32,"endTime":35.13,"body":"It only takes a moment, but has"},{"startTime":31.32,"endTime":35.13,"body":"a tremendous impact on our reach."},{"startTime":35.37,"endTime":37.98,"body":"Thank you for daring to listen."},{"startTime":50.52,"endTime":54.3,"body":"Hello and welcome back to The"},{"startTime":50.52,"endTime":54.3,"body":"Bodies Behind the Bus podcast."},{"startTime":54.3,"endTime":59.07,"body":"We have an at the bus stop episode"},{"startTime":54.3,"endTime":59.07,"body":"today that we are super excited about."},{"startTime":59.49,"endTime":62.7,"body":"Today we have Dr. Jared Stacy with us."},{"startTime":62.7,"endTime":64.8,"body":"A doctor is in the house."},{"startTime":65.039,"endTime":69.18,"body":"He is also an author of an upcoming book."},{"startTime":69.6,"endTime":72.48,"body":"He's an ethicist and a theologian."},{"startTime":72.96,"endTime":74.28,"body":"Welcome, Jared."},{"startTime":74.789,"endTime":76.35,"body":"It is good to be here, Jonah."},{"startTime":76.35,"endTime":77.009,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"startTime":77.039,"endTime":77.61,"body":"You too, Jay."},{"startTime":77.61,"endTime":78.509,"body":"Thanks for having me on."},{"startTime":79.59,"endTime":81.57,"body":"I would love to hear just a"},{"startTime":79.59,"endTime":81.57,"body":"little bit more about this"},{"startTime":81.57,"endTime":82.71,"body":"book that you're working on."},{"startTime":82.71,"endTime":84.03,"body":"Can you share some about that?"},{"startTime":84.75,"endTime":85.77,"body":"Sure, I can."},{"startTime":85.77,"endTime":87.81,"body":"So, uh, I was raised in."},{"startTime":88.515,"endTime":90.375,"body":"Uh, fundamentalist Christianity."},{"startTime":90.375,"endTime":93.585,"body":"So that's the fundamentalist"},{"startTime":90.375,"endTime":93.585,"body":"corner of Evangelicalism."},{"startTime":94.005,"endTime":102.495,"body":"Um, I went to Liberty and I was in the"},{"startTime":94.005,"endTime":102.495,"body":"SBC, and I've come out of a lot of that."},{"startTime":102.885,"endTime":109.755,"body":"Uh, and this book is part of my"},{"startTime":102.885,"endTime":109.755,"body":"grappling with conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":110.49,"endTime":115.59,"body":"In my own personal experience, but"},{"startTime":110.49,"endTime":115.59,"body":"also my experience as a pastor, as"},{"startTime":115.59,"endTime":121.08,"body":"a former pastor is what kind of gave"},{"startTime":115.59,"endTime":121.08,"body":"rise to my, my doctoral research into"},{"startTime":121.08,"endTime":126.21,"body":"conspiracy theory and evangelicalism,"},{"startTime":121.08,"endTime":126.21,"body":"uh, at January 6th, and then really"},{"startTime":126.21,"endTime":128.07,"body":"like 300 years of American history."},{"startTime":128.31,"endTime":133.14,"body":"So it, it really is not a topic that"},{"startTime":128.31,"endTime":133.14,"body":"I picked off of the shelf of saying,"},{"startTime":133.14,"endTime":137.7,"body":"Hey, like, what could be the most"},{"startTime":133.14,"endTime":137.7,"body":"controversial or even relevant topic?"},{"startTime":137.7,"endTime":143.43,"body":"This was something that, uh, came out"},{"startTime":137.7,"endTime":143.43,"body":"of my own upbringing, my own experience"},{"startTime":143.43,"endTime":147.48,"body":"in Christianity in America, I should"},{"startTime":143.43,"endTime":147.48,"body":"probably say Christian nationalism."},{"startTime":148.05,"endTime":151.685,"body":"And so this book grapples with"},{"startTime":148.05,"endTime":151.685,"body":"where we're, where we're at"},{"startTime":151.745,"endTime":153.24,"body":"now, but also how we got here."},{"startTime":153.24,"endTime":155.94,"body":"And I think answering the"},{"startTime":153.24,"endTime":155.94,"body":"question of how we got here."},{"startTime":155.985,"endTime":159.285,"body":"It is really important for answering"},{"startTime":155.985,"endTime":159.285,"body":"the question, where do we go"},{"startTime":159.285,"endTime":160.875,"body":"next and how do we move forward?"},{"startTime":161.205,"endTime":164.565,"body":"Um, and so I think that's what the"},{"startTime":161.205,"endTime":164.565,"body":"book is kind of set up to do, is give"},{"startTime":164.565,"endTime":169.155,"body":"people, uh, a broader look at how"},{"startTime":164.565,"endTime":169.155,"body":"conspiracy theory has always kind of"},{"startTime":169.155,"endTime":174.165,"body":"been used in evangelical Christianity"},{"startTime":169.155,"endTime":174.165,"body":"to narrate the world around us."},{"startTime":174.285,"endTime":177.825,"body":"Many of us are familiar with this,"},{"startTime":174.285,"endTime":177.825,"body":"and so I talk about Columbine."},{"startTime":178.065,"endTime":181.275,"body":"I talk about some of the"},{"startTime":178.065,"endTime":181.275,"body":"nine 11 conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":181.845,"endTime":184.965,"body":"I, I kind of bridge all of that"},{"startTime":181.845,"endTime":184.965,"body":"though to talk about this moment."},{"startTime":185.505,"endTime":189.495,"body":"Um, and it's a moment that I'm calling"},{"startTime":185.505,"endTime":189.495,"body":"a dis reality, uh, this, this moment"},{"startTime":189.495,"endTime":193.065,"body":"where there's so many different realities"},{"startTime":189.495,"endTime":193.065,"body":"that people we know and love are, are"},{"startTime":193.065,"endTime":195.705,"body":"bound up in, and they're all colliding."},{"startTime":196.095,"endTime":199.425,"body":"What one person says is, is real, not"},{"startTime":196.095,"endTime":199.425,"body":"just what they say is real, what they"},{"startTime":199.425,"endTime":204.105,"body":"act or believe in, that all of this is"},{"startTime":199.425,"endTime":204.105,"body":"colliding and it's where we all know this."},{"startTime":204.105,"endTime":207.495,"body":"So it's, it's difficult to, uh, you"},{"startTime":204.105,"endTime":207.495,"body":"know, try and find language to do"},{"startTime":207.495,"endTime":208.725,"body":"that, but that's what the book is at."},{"startTime":209.025,"endTime":213.285,"body":"It's, it's in this moment kind of looking"},{"startTime":209.025,"endTime":213.285,"body":"backwards to try and also look ahead."},{"startTime":215.355,"endTime":217.545,"body":"I am so excited for this book to come out."},{"startTime":217.605,"endTime":223.935,"body":"I agree with you that we need to be"},{"startTime":217.605,"endTime":223.935,"body":"able to honestly assess what got us here"},{"startTime":223.935,"endTime":229.005,"body":"so that we can make wise steps forward"},{"startTime":223.935,"endTime":229.005,"body":"and understand what a step forward even"},{"startTime":229.005,"endTime":232.755,"body":"looks like so we don't make the same"},{"startTime":229.005,"endTime":232.755,"body":"steps forward that we've been making."},{"startTime":232.755,"endTime":233.054,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":233.054,"endTime":233.295,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":233.864,"endTime":237.704,"body":"Um, before we get into the"},{"startTime":233.864,"endTime":237.704,"body":"conversation, which spoiler alert,"},{"startTime":237.795,"endTime":240.285,"body":"this is what we're going to be"},{"startTime":237.795,"endTime":240.285,"body":"talking about for this episode."},{"startTime":240.915,"endTime":243.674,"body":"I do wanna give you a substack plug."},{"startTime":244.035,"endTime":248.054,"body":"So Jared's book is going to be coming"},{"startTime":244.035,"endTime":248.054,"body":"out hopefully around next spring."},{"startTime":248.114,"endTime":252.404,"body":"And if you wanna stay up to date on"},{"startTime":248.114,"endTime":252.404,"body":"when that's gonna drop, when pre-orders"},{"startTime":252.404,"endTime":257.594,"body":"become available and also see some of"},{"startTime":252.404,"endTime":257.594,"body":"the deeper dives into current events or"},{"startTime":257.594,"endTime":262.905,"body":"things that Jared is working through,"},{"startTime":257.594,"endTime":262.905,"body":"go subscribe to his sub sub stack."},{"startTime":262.935,"endTime":264.794,"body":"We're gonna link that in the show notes."},{"startTime":264.825,"endTime":269.594,"body":"It's called the Home Word Dispatches,"},{"startTime":264.825,"endTime":269.594,"body":"and there's a ton of great content there,"},{"startTime":269.594,"endTime":271.784,"body":"so go support Jared and his work there."},{"startTime":272.895,"endTime":273.405,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":273.405,"endTime":273.735,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":273.975,"endTime":274.545,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":275.505,"endTime":279.315,"body":"Well, Jared, I am so excited"},{"startTime":275.505,"endTime":279.315,"body":"to have you on to talk a little"},{"startTime":279.315,"endTime":281.415,"body":"bit about this current moment."},{"startTime":281.535,"endTime":281.625,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":281.865,"endTime":286.695,"body":"And something that Jay and I have been"},{"startTime":281.865,"endTime":286.695,"body":"talking about a lot is how the work"},{"startTime":286.695,"endTime":291.375,"body":"with bodies behind the bus and abuse"},{"startTime":286.695,"endTime":291.375,"body":"and the culture that allows for abuse"},{"startTime":291.435,"endTime":294.345,"body":"in western evangelical spaces Yeah."},{"startTime":294.375,"endTime":296.58,"body":"Is really relevant to"},{"startTime":294.375,"endTime":296.58,"body":"the conversation mm-hmm."},{"startTime":296.66,"endTime":300.345,"body":"Of Christian nationalism, because we"},{"startTime":296.66,"endTime":300.345,"body":"think that there's a through line there."},{"startTime":300.345,"endTime":300.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":300.765,"endTime":307.215,"body":"With the tactics and the levers"},{"startTime":300.765,"endTime":307.215,"body":"that are pulled by power brokers"},{"startTime":307.275,"endTime":309.885,"body":"in order to get people in line."},{"startTime":310.215,"endTime":316.725,"body":"There's a lot of the similar tactics"},{"startTime":310.215,"endTime":316.725,"body":"with coercion, um, but also this, um,"},{"startTime":316.845,"endTime":321.525,"body":"idea of people being meaning makers"},{"startTime":316.845,"endTime":321.525,"body":"and mm-hmm creating these different"},{"startTime":321.525,"endTime":327.735,"body":"realities or different meanings"},{"startTime":321.525,"endTime":327.735,"body":"within scripture that are really."},{"startTime":328.965,"endTime":332.805,"body":"Adding to this culture of Christian"},{"startTime":328.965,"endTime":332.805,"body":"nationalism becoming normalized,"},{"startTime":333.465,"endTime":338.865,"body":"how would you say conspiracy"},{"startTime":333.465,"endTime":338.865,"body":"theories fit into that conversation?"},{"startTime":340.515,"endTime":341.625,"body":"That's a really good question, Jonna."},{"startTime":341.625,"endTime":347.085,"body":"I think first I, I want to just,"},{"startTime":341.625,"endTime":347.085,"body":"uh, affirm all across the board"},{"startTime":347.085,"endTime":351.344,"body":"the connection that this podcast"},{"startTime":347.085,"endTime":351.344,"body":"is making between cultures of abuse"},{"startTime":351.975,"endTime":354.105,"body":"and political conspiracy theories."},{"startTime":354.135,"endTime":358.575,"body":"While some of us in who've, who've"},{"startTime":354.135,"endTime":358.575,"body":"navigated these spaces, like I have,"},{"startTime":358.815,"endTime":363.975,"body":"and I know you both have it, it's kind"},{"startTime":358.815,"endTime":363.975,"body":"of in intuitive, like, oh, of course."},{"startTime":364.095,"endTime":367.545,"body":"But from the outside looking"},{"startTime":364.095,"endTime":367.545,"body":"in, it's not as easily parsed."},{"startTime":367.605,"endTime":371.595,"body":"And I just want to say from, from a,"},{"startTime":367.605,"endTime":371.595,"body":"from a, a former pastor standpoint,"},{"startTime":371.595,"endTime":375.315,"body":"someone who's navigated these kind"},{"startTime":371.595,"endTime":375.315,"body":"of situations myself, it, it, there"},{"startTime":375.315,"endTime":376.995,"body":"is an absolute connection here."},{"startTime":376.995,"endTime":380.925,"body":"And I think, I think the, the root"},{"startTime":376.995,"endTime":380.925,"body":"of this connection is really, uh,"},{"startTime":380.955,"endTime":382.905,"body":"narration, it's really storytelling."},{"startTime":383.039,"endTime":386.445,"body":"And, and the person who in, in terms"},{"startTime":383.039,"endTime":386.445,"body":"of abuse coverups, the person who"},{"startTime":386.445,"endTime":387.615,"body":"kind of controls the narrative."},{"startTime":387.974,"endTime":389.115,"body":"Is wielding the power."},{"startTime":389.565,"endTime":393.224,"body":"And, and so when it, when you kind"},{"startTime":389.565,"endTime":393.224,"body":"of connect that though to our current"},{"startTime":393.224,"endTime":399.555,"body":"political moment, um, Trump's word"},{"startTime":393.224,"endTime":399.555,"body":"in many ways is creating, and for"},{"startTime":399.555,"endTime":403.305,"body":"the last 10 years, let's, we have to"},{"startTime":399.555,"endTime":403.305,"body":"wrestle with the fact that MAGA has"},{"startTime":403.305,"endTime":409.724,"body":"been in ascendancy for the last decade,"},{"startTime":403.305,"endTime":409.724,"body":"maybe 15 years, uh, to the point"},{"startTime":409.724,"endTime":413.294,"body":"where now there are voters who don't"},{"startTime":409.724,"endTime":413.294,"body":"remember anything really prior to that."},{"startTime":413.294,"endTime":421.815,"body":"So, um, we are grappling with this chaotic"},{"startTime":413.294,"endTime":421.815,"body":"moment where any kind of story that gives"},{"startTime":421.875,"endTime":425.955,"body":"a coherence and certainty is attractive."},{"startTime":426.794,"endTime":431.685,"body":"And even if it doesn't meet"},{"startTime":426.794,"endTime":431.685,"body":"certain rational criteria,"},{"startTime":432.284,"endTime":434.385,"body":"it's, it's still useful."},{"startTime":434.505,"endTime":436.724,"body":"So I, I use that word, it's still useful."},{"startTime":436.724,"endTime":442.395,"body":"It's got utility for organizing, like"},{"startTime":436.724,"endTime":442.395,"body":"a church, for organizing a society."},{"startTime":442.544,"endTime":445.875,"body":"And so that, that sort of"},{"startTime":442.544,"endTime":445.875,"body":"utility, when you start to."},{"startTime":446.565,"endTime":450.525,"body":"Tell a different story, other"},{"startTime":446.565,"endTime":450.525,"body":"things become threatened."},{"startTime":451.155,"endTime":456.555,"body":"And that's why survivors taking to the"},{"startTime":451.155,"endTime":456.555,"body":"internet to share their experiences"},{"startTime":456.555,"endTime":460.995,"body":"and tell the truth is seen as"},{"startTime":456.555,"endTime":460.995,"body":"so, oh, those, those are keyboard"},{"startTime":460.995,"endTime":462.974,"body":"warriors or, or things like that."},{"startTime":463.275,"endTime":468.914,"body":"Uh, when it's really a contested space of,"},{"startTime":463.275,"endTime":468.914,"body":"well, who gets to be the storyteller here?"},{"startTime":469.275,"endTime":472.424,"body":"Um, and I think that's, that's"},{"startTime":469.275,"endTime":472.424,"body":"the kind of the connection is,"},{"startTime":472.424,"endTime":473.715,"body":"is really the power of story."},{"startTime":477.615,"endTime":481.965,"body":"I, I've been, I like to, I mean,"},{"startTime":477.615,"endTime":481.965,"body":"I, I, I, I observe the internet."},{"startTime":481.965,"endTime":485.115,"body":"That's how I tell John I, so"},{"startTime":481.965,"endTime":485.115,"body":"social media, I'm an observer."},{"startTime":485.115,"endTime":486.554,"body":"I don't know if I'm a contributor."},{"startTime":487.125,"endTime":488.631,"body":"Um, and which is I'm the"},{"startTime":488.635,"endTime":490.005,"body":"front lines of the podcast."},{"startTime":490.005,"endTime":490.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":490.409,"endTime":491.03,"body":"On the internet."},{"startTime":491.03,"endTime":491.27,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":491.28,"endTime":492.669,"body":"There needs to be a both and Yeah."},{"startTime":492.669,"endTime":493.59,"body":"There needs to be a both and,"},{"startTime":494.055,"endTime":498.885,"body":"but what, what's fascinated me since, you"},{"startTime":494.055,"endTime":498.885,"body":"know, I, I mean, I was alive during Colum,"},{"startTime":498.885,"endTime":500.385,"body":"I was in high school during Columbine."},{"startTime":500.39,"endTime":500.469,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":500.474,"endTime":504.015,"body":"I remember Columbine, I remember,"},{"startTime":500.474,"endTime":504.015,"body":"I remember those, some of those"},{"startTime":504.015,"endTime":506.685,"body":"conspiracy theories about Columbine"},{"startTime":504.015,"endTime":506.685,"body":"and definitely remember the"},{"startTime":506.685,"endTime":508.365,"body":"conspiracy theories that came out."},{"startTime":508.365,"endTime":510.885,"body":"Nine 11, especially ones that"},{"startTime":508.365,"endTime":510.885,"body":"were coming out from the church."},{"startTime":511.395,"endTime":516.735,"body":"But what I've been fascinated since I"},{"startTime":511.395,"endTime":516.735,"body":"would say 20 15, 20 14, with the church"},{"startTime":516.735,"endTime":522.105,"body":"and Trump, when Trump really came out and"},{"startTime":516.735,"endTime":522.105,"body":"then is the, I would call it the devolving"},{"startTime":522.105,"endTime":524.145,"body":"of moral clarity has become mm-hmm."},{"startTime":524.27,"endTime":530.055,"body":"So fast and rampant in churches to"},{"startTime":524.27,"endTime":530.055,"body":"where I'm seeing things that pastors"},{"startTime":530.055,"endTime":534.885,"body":"are saying online that I was like, they"},{"startTime":530.055,"endTime":534.885,"body":"wouldn't have said this 10 years ago."},{"startTime":535.275,"endTime":536.954,"body":"And like to just see."},{"startTime":537.75,"endTime":541.35,"body":"Like case in point, like they had a pastor"},{"startTime":537.75,"endTime":541.35,"body":"in Texas who was like celebrating that"},{"startTime":541.35,"endTime":546.39,"body":"his school like was the lowest vaccinated"},{"startTime":541.35,"endTime":546.39,"body":"school in the, like, I saw that state of"},{"startTime":546.39,"endTime":551.31,"body":"Texas and like he was celebrating that and"},{"startTime":546.39,"endTime":551.31,"body":"like, like almost like mocking people're."},{"startTime":551.31,"endTime":551.67,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":551.97,"endTime":556.11,"body":"You know, in my opinion he was mocking"},{"startTime":551.97,"endTime":556.11,"body":"and I just was like, he's bought"},{"startTime":556.11,"endTime":561.99,"body":"into some, some shit that like he"},{"startTime":556.11,"endTime":561.99,"body":"really believes and that man is at"},{"startTime":561.99,"endTime":567.569,"body":"on the pulpit shaping and moving the"},{"startTime":561.99,"endTime":567.569,"body":"congregation to believe and think away."},{"startTime":567.569,"endTime":567.66,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":568.17,"endTime":572.85,"body":"And I was even thinking like 10 years"},{"startTime":568.17,"endTime":572.85,"body":"ago, even like some of those guys who"},{"startTime":572.85,"endTime":577.77,"body":"are on the far right who in the back"},{"startTime":572.85,"endTime":577.77,"body":"room supported Trump, still walked"},{"startTime":577.77,"endTime":582.42,"body":"in with a, with a, I guess a line of"},{"startTime":577.77,"endTime":582.42,"body":"like, we're not gonna go all the way."},{"startTime":582.48,"endTime":583.62,"body":"They don't even care anymore."},{"startTime":583.68,"endTime":583.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":583.944,"endTime":584.235,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":584.25,"endTime":587.88,"body":"And I, I guess from your"},{"startTime":584.25,"endTime":587.88,"body":"perspective, like that."},{"startTime":588.435,"endTime":592.035,"body":"That shift to where we're"},{"startTime":588.435,"endTime":592.035,"body":"not even hiding it, right?"},{"startTime":592.035,"endTime":592.125,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":592.395,"endTime":596.835,"body":"How does that play into this world"},{"startTime":592.395,"endTime":596.835,"body":"to where we're now getting more,"},{"startTime":597.015,"endTime":600.525,"body":"did you say multiple realities,"},{"startTime":597.015,"endTime":600.525,"body":"or what was your term there?"},{"startTime":600.53,"endTime":601.395,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":601.395,"endTime":604.065,"body":"Like, like dis reality and just reality."},{"startTime":604.125,"endTime":604.485,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":605.055,"endTime":609.525,"body":"I think, I think for a lot of people,"},{"startTime":605.055,"endTime":609.525,"body":"real, even just the word reality just"},{"startTime":609.525,"endTime":612.855,"body":"kind of functions as like, that's,"},{"startTime":609.525,"endTime":612.855,"body":"that that should end the conversation."},{"startTime":613.365,"endTime":618.465,"body":"And we know from experience inside"},{"startTime":613.365,"endTime":618.465,"body":"Evangelicalism that just like people"},{"startTime":618.465,"endTime":621.825,"body":"who, maybe they're not Christian,"},{"startTime":618.465,"endTime":621.825,"body":"they kind of say, oh, reality is like,"},{"startTime":622.065,"endTime":623.535,"body":"that's, that's where the facts are."},{"startTime":623.835,"endTime":626.025,"body":"But in, in this, inside"},{"startTime":623.835,"endTime":626.025,"body":"the church, you have a very"},{"startTime":626.025,"endTime":627.525,"body":"similar thing of just biblical."},{"startTime":627.615,"endTime":629.085,"body":"Like that's just, that's biblical."},{"startTime":629.145,"endTime":630.825,"body":"And that means the end"},{"startTime":629.145,"endTime":630.825,"body":"of the conversation."},{"startTime":631.245,"endTime":636.225,"body":"There's no un unpackaging"},{"startTime":631.245,"endTime":636.225,"body":"biblical and giving it."},{"startTime":636.855,"endTime":638.745,"body":"Uh, you know, what, what do"},{"startTime":636.855,"endTime":638.745,"body":"you mean when you say that?"},{"startTime":639.375,"endTime":642.195,"body":"So, I think for a lot of people,"},{"startTime":639.375,"endTime":642.195,"body":"one of the things I'm trying to do"},{"startTime":642.195,"endTime":645.615,"body":"is give language to this shift of"},{"startTime":642.195,"endTime":645.615,"body":"like, how can we talk about this?"},{"startTime":646.064,"endTime":651.555,"body":"Um, because when you look at people"},{"startTime":646.064,"endTime":651.555,"body":"sitting in the pews who are in many"},{"startTime":651.555,"endTime":658.545,"body":"ways like receiving this message as"},{"startTime":651.555,"endTime":658.545,"body":"conspiracy theory baked into Christianity,"},{"startTime":658.905,"endTime":660.555,"body":"um, here's, here's what happens."},{"startTime":661.395,"endTime":665.055,"body":"And my, one of my favorite journalists"},{"startTime":661.395,"endTime":665.055,"body":"right now that's covering this sort of"},{"startTime":665.115,"endTime":668.265,"body":"late creeping fascism is Jeff Charlotte."},{"startTime":668.715,"endTime":669.585,"body":"He has this great line."},{"startTime":669.585,"endTime":671.715,"body":"He's, he's been to Trump rallies,"},{"startTime":669.585,"endTime":671.715,"body":"and he, he has this line."},{"startTime":671.715,"endTime":673.335,"body":"You cannot fact check a myth."},{"startTime":674.595,"endTime":678.944,"body":"And the limits of fact checking are"},{"startTime":674.595,"endTime":678.944,"body":"really right here for us to see."},{"startTime":679.185,"endTime":683.955,"body":"Because what happens when you start"},{"startTime":679.185,"endTime":683.955,"body":"kind of baking these alternative or"},{"startTime":683.955,"endTime":688.245,"body":"transgressive forms of knowledge about"},{"startTime":683.955,"endTime":688.245,"body":"vaccines and, and all of this stuff,"},{"startTime":688.245,"endTime":690.495,"body":"when it kind of comes packaged to you as."},{"startTime":690.885,"endTime":693.675,"body":"The Christian story, like"},{"startTime":690.885,"endTime":693.675,"body":"this is what good Christians,"},{"startTime":693.675,"endTime":694.845,"body":"biblical Christians believe."},{"startTime":695.475,"endTime":700.365,"body":"The problem or the reality of that,"},{"startTime":695.475,"endTime":700.365,"body":"um, is that fact checking doesn't"},{"startTime":700.365,"endTime":705.525,"body":"work in that kind of scenario, you're"},{"startTime":700.365,"endTime":705.525,"body":"actually really dealing with theology."},{"startTime":705.615,"endTime":710.564,"body":"You're really dealing with needing"},{"startTime":705.615,"endTime":710.564,"body":"to separate, um, this kind of"},{"startTime":710.655,"endTime":714.495,"body":"form of knowledge from what is"},{"startTime":710.655,"endTime":714.495,"body":"Christian knowledge, what does"},{"startTime":714.495,"endTime":715.965,"body":"it mean to know as a Christian?"},{"startTime":716.204,"endTime":719.385,"body":"And that's what my work is trying"},{"startTime":716.204,"endTime":719.385,"body":"to set up to do, is it give people"},{"startTime":719.385,"endTime":724.095,"body":"permission to say, you know, what"},{"startTime":719.385,"endTime":724.095,"body":"an epidemiologist says we can, we"},{"startTime":724.095,"endTime":726.165,"body":"can handle and not risk our faith."},{"startTime":726.645,"endTime":730.845,"body":"Um, and, and so being able to"},{"startTime":726.645,"endTime":730.845,"body":"separate those two together is"},{"startTime":730.845,"endTime":733.845,"body":"really where a Christian ethic"},{"startTime":730.845,"endTime":733.845,"body":"actually can start to be born."},{"startTime":734.175,"endTime":736.964,"body":"But it's really difficult to talk to"},{"startTime":734.175,"endTime":736.964,"body":"people about what a Christian ethic"},{"startTime":736.964,"endTime":740.655,"body":"might be or what Christian morality"},{"startTime":736.964,"endTime":740.655,"body":"might be when you have pastors, and"},{"startTime":740.655,"endTime":744.314,"body":"this is kind of my final observation to"},{"startTime":740.655,"endTime":744.314,"body":"your question, is that you have pastors"},{"startTime":744.314,"endTime":748.454,"body":"who are more committed to the sort"},{"startTime":744.314,"endTime":748.454,"body":"of morality that makes America work."},{"startTime":749.295,"endTime":753.345,"body":"A certain way then a, a morality"},{"startTime":749.295,"endTime":753.345,"body":"that is a witness to Christ."},{"startTime":753.855,"endTime":757.785,"body":"And when you start to make the difference"},{"startTime":753.855,"endTime":757.785,"body":"between, well, what do we need to say?"},{"startTime":757.815,"endTime":760.695,"body":"How do we need to narrate things"},{"startTime":757.815,"endTime":760.695,"body":"in order to make our vision"},{"startTime":760.695,"endTime":762.435,"body":"of America quote unquote work?"},{"startTime":763.395,"endTime":767.505,"body":"Versus what are the actions"},{"startTime":763.395,"endTime":767.505,"body":"that we are called to, to give a"},{"startTime":767.505,"endTime":768.945,"body":"witness to Christ, to our world?"},{"startTime":769.125,"endTime":772.155,"body":"Those are two divergent paths."},{"startTime":772.815,"endTime":777.615,"body":"The, the, the task of Making America work"},{"startTime":772.815,"endTime":777.615,"body":"or again, and I would kind of lay that"},{"startTime":777.615,"endTime":779.715,"body":"onto Make America great again, right?"},{"startTime":779.715,"endTime":784.425,"body":"So we wanna contribute to our society,"},{"startTime":779.715,"endTime":784.425,"body":"we want to be positive, uh, and,"},{"startTime":784.425,"endTime":786.045,"body":"and share these common problems."},{"startTime":786.165,"endTime":789.675,"body":"But what we're finding is that"},{"startTime":786.165,"endTime":789.675,"body":"these conspiracies and these kind of"},{"startTime":789.735,"endTime":795.465,"body":"transgressive ways of, of thinking about"},{"startTime":789.735,"endTime":795.465,"body":"things are being packaged into a Christian"},{"startTime":795.465,"endTime":797.145,"body":"story that's already very scandalous."},{"startTime":797.235,"endTime":801.435,"body":"And so people kind of say, well,"},{"startTime":797.235,"endTime":801.435,"body":"Christianity's a conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":801.975,"endTime":803.145,"body":"And once you say that."},{"startTime":803.55,"endTime":805.26,"body":"Then everything's on the table."},{"startTime":805.65,"endTime":808.56,"body":"And I think that's a really"},{"startTime":805.65,"endTime":808.56,"body":"important point because that's"},{"startTime":808.56,"endTime":809.7,"body":"the language that's out there."},{"startTime":809.94,"endTime":811.35,"body":"That's what I saw as a pastor."},{"startTime":811.74,"endTime":815.31,"body":"And so in some ways, I want to very"},{"startTime":811.74,"endTime":815.31,"body":"clearly say, I think it's pastoral"},{"startTime":815.31,"endTime":819.42,"body":"malpractice to really give people"},{"startTime":815.31,"endTime":819.42,"body":"permission to say, well, Christianity's"},{"startTime":819.42,"endTime":820.89,"body":"kind of a conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":821.25,"endTime":825.96,"body":"Um, that's gonna appeal to a kind of"},{"startTime":821.25,"endTime":825.96,"body":"person who's already kind of leaning"},{"startTime":825.96,"endTime":828.48,"body":"into a very corrosive form of suspicion."},{"startTime":828.69,"endTime":834.18,"body":"I'm just, I'm like, like I'm, I'm blown"},{"startTime":828.69,"endTime":834.18,"body":"away that there's not more attention to"},{"startTime":834.21,"endTime":838.74,"body":"how, I mean, I know there's tension to"},{"startTime":834.21,"endTime":838.74,"body":"Christian nationalism right now mm-hmm."},{"startTime":838.98,"endTime":845.04,"body":"But how rampant it is in the churches"},{"startTime":838.98,"endTime":845.04,"body":"and how leaders are, are not only like"},{"startTime":845.49,"endTime":851.13,"body":"supporting it, but they are full on"},{"startTime":845.49,"endTime":851.13,"body":"shifting and changing narratives to"},{"startTime":851.13,"endTime":854.4,"body":"reflect a more America centric gospel."},{"startTime":854.4,"endTime":854.401,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":854.885,"endTime":855.105,"body":"And."},{"startTime":855.765,"endTime":856.695,"body":"Every Sunday."},{"startTime":856.695,"endTime":862.125,"body":"And like why, like why are we not"},{"startTime":856.695,"endTime":862.125,"body":"sounding the alarm bells to be"},{"startTime":862.125,"endTime":866.505,"body":"like, Hey, we've seen this play"},{"startTime":862.125,"endTime":866.505,"body":"out before in other countries."},{"startTime":866.715,"endTime":870.225,"body":"We can go back a hundred"},{"startTime":866.715,"endTime":870.225,"body":"years and see where this goes."},{"startTime":870.765,"endTime":873.105,"body":"And, but we're not like, why?"},{"startTime":873.105,"endTime":877.845,"body":"Like what is the, I guess I'm appealing"},{"startTime":873.105,"endTime":877.845,"body":"to your former pastor side here."},{"startTime":878.145,"endTime":878.265,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":878.325,"endTime":882.315,"body":"And even like spending time in theology,"},{"startTime":878.325,"endTime":882.315,"body":"like why are there not men and women?"},{"startTime":882.645,"endTime":884.415,"body":"Well in the SBC, it's just men."},{"startTime":884.895,"endTime":887.025,"body":"Uh, but why are there not other people?"},{"startTime":887.025,"endTime":890.475,"body":"Maybe if there were women, they'd be"},{"startTime":887.025,"endTime":890.475,"body":"saying stuff like this, but why are"},{"startTime":890.475,"endTime":894.795,"body":"there not people that, I'm sure there"},{"startTime":890.475,"endTime":894.795,"body":"are people that don't believe this stuff"},{"startTime":894.975,"endTime":896.925,"body":"and they see the writing on the walls."},{"startTime":896.925,"endTime":897.165,"body":"Why"},{"startTime":897.165,"endTime":898.305,"body":"are they not speaking up?"},{"startTime":898.8,"endTime":900.51,"body":"Well, can I, can I ask one?"},{"startTime":900.51,"endTime":900.57,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":900.6,"endTime":902.7,"body":"Like put one little"},{"startTime":900.6,"endTime":902.7,"body":"point in there with that."},{"startTime":902.7,"endTime":902.76,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":903.36,"endTime":905.37,"body":"I don't think it's just other countries."},{"startTime":905.4,"endTime":908.34,"body":"I think it's really easy for us to"},{"startTime":905.4,"endTime":908.34,"body":"be like, this has happened in other"},{"startTime":908.34,"endTime":912.81,"body":"countries, but I actually, the more I've"},{"startTime":908.34,"endTime":912.81,"body":"like sat and stared at this, especially"},{"startTime":912.99,"endTime":917.25,"body":"this last year, I'm like, this is just us."},{"startTime":917.31,"endTime":919.23,"body":"Like this is the united, right?"},{"startTime":919.235,"endTime":919.585,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":919.665,"endTime":925.35,"body":"Forever, like we have utilized the"},{"startTime":919.665,"endTime":925.35,"body":"church in the us the white evangelical"},{"startTime":925.35,"endTime":930.21,"body":"church in particular in the US"},{"startTime":925.35,"endTime":930.21,"body":"has utilized these same levers."},{"startTime":930.21,"endTime":932.67,"body":"It's just we have gotten."},{"startTime":933.855,"endTime":937.785,"body":"More and more into positions"},{"startTime":933.855,"endTime":937.785,"body":"of power within the government."},{"startTime":937.785,"endTime":938.36,"body":"That's good point with that."},{"startTime":938.36,"endTime":939.64,"body":"That's a good, I think, well,"},{"startTime":939.64,"endTime":940.545,"body":"and I'm not even, so I think these have"},{"startTime":940.545,"endTime":943.215,"body":"all been tools that have been"},{"startTime":940.545,"endTime":943.215,"body":"being utilized in the church."},{"startTime":943.275,"endTime":943.395,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":943.605,"endTime":946.965,"body":"And I'm not even saying like, I"},{"startTime":943.605,"endTime":946.965,"body":"don't believe in the SBC at all."},{"startTime":946.995,"endTime":949.485,"body":"Like I, I don't stand for"},{"startTime":946.995,"endTime":949.485,"body":"anything they stand for."},{"startTime":949.92,"endTime":952.305,"body":"I, I, I don't even know why it exists."},{"startTime":952.335,"endTime":954.465,"body":"Um, especially with all"},{"startTime":952.335,"endTime":954.465,"body":"the abuse allegations."},{"startTime":954.465,"endTime":957.735,"body":"But what I would say is like, I"},{"startTime":954.465,"endTime":957.735,"body":"would think there is some within"},{"startTime":957.735,"endTime":961.755,"body":"institutions that being one of them"},{"startTime":957.735,"endTime":961.755,"body":"that don't buy into the conspiracies"},{"startTime":962.205,"endTime":963.8,"body":"that, that maybe buy mm-hmm."},{"startTime":963.885,"endTime":967.425,"body":"Into more of a hard line Christianity,"},{"startTime":963.885,"endTime":967.425,"body":"but they're like, yeah, the"},{"startTime":967.425,"endTime":969.105,"body":"Copi stuff is too far for me."},{"startTime":969.195,"endTime":970.665,"body":"Why are they not saying stuff?"},{"startTime":970.725,"endTime":970.845,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":970.845,"endTime":971.925,"body":"Or am I missing it"},{"startTime":972.345,"endTime":974.445,"body":"or No, I don't think you are."},{"startTime":974.655,"endTime":978.105,"body":"Um, I think this is where Jesus'"},{"startTime":974.655,"endTime":978.105,"body":"teaching on wealth is just really,"},{"startTime":978.195,"endTime":979.665,"body":"really pointed and really sharp."},{"startTime":979.725,"endTime":980.805,"body":"That's the cutting edge."},{"startTime":981.165,"endTime":982.695,"body":"Um, you lose everything."},{"startTime":983.67,"endTime":987.54,"body":"I mean, you do, uh, you know, in, in"},{"startTime":983.67,"endTime":987.54,"body":"an institution that's built up the"},{"startTime":987.54,"endTime":992.28,"body":"way that we've built up our religious"},{"startTime":987.54,"endTime":992.28,"body":"institutions, which are economic"},{"startTime":992.28,"endTime":996.75,"body":"ventures, just as much as they're Kingdom"},{"startTime":992.28,"endTime":996.75,"body":"ventures, um, there's a whole lot of"},{"startTime":996.78,"endTime":1001.61,"body":"material incentive, um, that's baked"},{"startTime":996.78,"endTime":1001.61,"body":"into that, that might sound cynical."},{"startTime":1002.27,"endTime":1007.31,"body":"Um, but I think if we had time to sit"},{"startTime":1002.27,"endTime":1007.31,"body":"down and like, I could tell my story in"},{"startTime":1007.31,"endTime":1011.75,"body":"full and, and or you talk to survivors"},{"startTime":1007.31,"endTime":1011.75,"body":"who've walked outta these spaces, like"},{"startTime":1012.47,"endTime":1017.21,"body":"I, you know, there, there's a, there's"},{"startTime":1012.47,"endTime":1017.21,"body":"a material cost associating with this,"},{"startTime":1017.21,"endTime":1020.96,"body":"and I think in some ways too, like we've"},{"startTime":1017.21,"endTime":1020.96,"body":"forgotten even outside of this country."},{"startTime":1020.96,"endTime":1023.569,"body":"So, you know, there's always the"},{"startTime":1020.96,"endTime":1023.569,"body":"question of, well, should we look"},{"startTime":1023.569,"endTime":1027.379,"body":"to, uh, the confessing church"},{"startTime":1023.569,"endTime":1027.379,"body":"in Germany as, as inspiration"},{"startTime":1027.379,"endTime":1028.67,"body":"for an analogy for this moment?"},{"startTime":1028.67,"endTime":1031.55,"body":"But there, there was not."},{"startTime":1031.609,"endTime":1033.02,"body":"It, it, it, it fizzled out."},{"startTime":1033.17,"endTime":1037.28,"body":"Most of the pastors took the"},{"startTime":1033.17,"endTime":1037.28,"body":"oath to Hitler, um, in Germany"},{"startTime":1037.67,"endTime":1039.139,"body":"when you look at even America."},{"startTime":1039.139,"endTime":1041.3,"body":"And I appreciate, I appreciate"},{"startTime":1039.139,"endTime":1041.3,"body":"John's point on this."},{"startTime":1042.859,"endTime":1046.49,"body":"I think there's a healthy way of"},{"startTime":1042.859,"endTime":1046.49,"body":"saying, this has always been us, there's"},{"startTime":1046.49,"endTime":1051.47,"body":"always been this sort of teetering"},{"startTime":1046.49,"endTime":1051.47,"body":"towards authoritarianism and, and"},{"startTime":1051.47,"endTime":1052.97,"body":"that's kind of baked into democracy."},{"startTime":1053.389,"endTime":1056.659,"body":"Um, but when you look at America, so I'll"},{"startTime":1053.389,"endTime":1056.659,"body":"give you just a really specific example"},{"startTime":1056.659,"endTime":1061.79,"body":"about conspiracies and evangelicalism"},{"startTime":1056.659,"endTime":1061.79,"body":"going back to when historians kind of"},{"startTime":1061.79,"endTime":1064.909,"body":"say, Hey, this is when it started, about"},{"startTime":1061.79,"endTime":1064.909,"body":"30 years before the American Revolution."},{"startTime":1065.48,"endTime":1068.75,"body":"There was these great revivals"},{"startTime":1065.48,"endTime":1068.75,"body":"that swept the colonies that were"},{"startTime":1068.75,"endTime":1070.31,"body":"known as the Great Awakenings."},{"startTime":1070.52,"endTime":1075.23,"body":"And for those who are familiar with"},{"startTime":1070.52,"endTime":1075.23,"body":"like Q Anon, Q Anon seized on that idea"},{"startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1078.17,"body":"of a great awakening and said, Hey,"},{"startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1078.17,"body":"the third great awakening is coming."},{"startTime":1078.17,"endTime":1082.94,"body":"So for even people who grew up kind"},{"startTime":1078.17,"endTime":1082.94,"body":"of in a revivalistic type of church"},{"startTime":1083.3,"endTime":1086.75,"body":"Q anon right now appeals to this"},{"startTime":1083.3,"endTime":1086.75,"body":"really primal sense of what it means"},{"startTime":1086.75,"endTime":1088.82,"body":"to be white evangelical in America."},{"startTime":1088.82,"endTime":1090.26,"body":"Like, oh, of course I want revival."},{"startTime":1090.47,"endTime":1092.57,"body":"Of course we should want"},{"startTime":1090.47,"endTime":1092.57,"body":"to see that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1092.63,"endTime":1097.04,"body":"And the question is never asked, well what"},{"startTime":1092.63,"endTime":1097.04,"body":"sort of Jesus are is this revival for?"},{"startTime":1097.4,"endTime":1099.68,"body":"And and a lot of times we, we have an."},{"startTime":1099.905,"endTime":1103.655,"body":"A paranoid Jesus, a Jesus who's, you"},{"startTime":1099.905,"endTime":1103.655,"body":"know, speaking outta two sides of"},{"startTime":1103.655,"endTime":1108.665,"body":"his mouth endorsing rampant American"},{"startTime":1103.655,"endTime":1108.665,"body":"militarism and in our economic"},{"startTime":1108.665,"endTime":1112.055,"body":"systems, while at the same time saying"},{"startTime":1108.665,"endTime":1112.055,"body":"like, I'm here to make America work."},{"startTime":1112.385,"endTime":1116.285,"body":"George Whitfield was an, an evangelist"},{"startTime":1112.385,"endTime":1116.285,"body":"who went around preaching all the"},{"startTime":1116.285,"endTime":1118.055,"body":"way through the American colonies."},{"startTime":1118.295,"endTime":1119.225,"body":"He owned slaves."},{"startTime":1119.495,"endTime":1123.245,"body":"Uh, and he opened up an orphanage"},{"startTime":1119.495,"endTime":1123.245,"body":"to fund his missionary kind of"},{"startTime":1123.245,"endTime":1124.565,"body":"excursions all through the colonies."},{"startTime":1125.735,"endTime":1129.365,"body":"In my research I did, uh, I examined"},{"startTime":1125.735,"endTime":1129.365,"body":"some of his sermons and he would go"},{"startTime":1129.365,"endTime":1134.705,"body":"and he would preach to slave enslaved"},{"startTime":1129.365,"endTime":1134.705,"body":"people with their masters present."},{"startTime":1134.885,"endTime":1137.435,"body":"And what he would do is"},{"startTime":1134.885,"endTime":1137.435,"body":"he would preach a gospel."},{"startTime":1137.435,"endTime":1139.745,"body":"So he wasn't supposed to preach"},{"startTime":1137.435,"endTime":1139.745,"body":"to enslaved people at all."},{"startTime":1139.925,"endTime":1144.185,"body":"So he was, he was still bucking"},{"startTime":1139.925,"endTime":1144.185,"body":"the trend, but the problem was"},{"startTime":1144.185,"endTime":1145.775,"body":"that he was only going so far."},{"startTime":1145.775,"endTime":1146.855,"body":"He still left."},{"startTime":1147.17,"endTime":1150.17,"body":"The economic institution of"},{"startTime":1147.17,"endTime":1150.17,"body":"chattel slavery intact, and"},{"startTime":1150.17,"endTime":1151.64,"body":"he was a beneficiary from it."},{"startTime":1152.18,"endTime":1155.96,"body":"But the, the, the copi, so the"},{"startTime":1152.18,"endTime":1155.96,"body":"conspiracy theory of his day"},{"startTime":1155.96,"endTime":1161.0,"body":"was that there were going to be"},{"startTime":1155.96,"endTime":1161.0,"body":"slave revolts, armed uprisings."},{"startTime":1161.33,"endTime":1167.21,"body":"And one of his, one of his kind of co"},{"startTime":1161.33,"endTime":1167.21,"body":"evangelist went and preached to the,"},{"startTime":1167.21,"endTime":1170.9,"body":"this, the, the white residents of"},{"startTime":1167.21,"endTime":1170.9,"body":"Charleston that if you don't repent,"},{"startTime":1171.2,"endTime":1176.69,"body":"he said, God is gonna send, he said,"},{"startTime":1171.2,"endTime":1176.69,"body":"quote, African hosts, which he was"},{"startTime":1176.69,"endTime":1181.49,"body":"referencing enslaved gatherings of"},{"startTime":1176.69,"endTime":1181.49,"body":"Christians outside of Charleston, that"},{"startTime":1181.49,"endTime":1185.9,"body":"God was gonna actually gonna send them"},{"startTime":1181.49,"endTime":1185.9,"body":"as judgment, you know, on, on these"},{"startTime":1185.9,"endTime":1187.52,"body":"white people if they didn't repent."},{"startTime":1187.88,"endTime":1188.27,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1189.14,"endTime":1191.33,"body":"That was in 1730 ish."},{"startTime":1191.87,"endTime":1196.07,"body":"If you look at some of Billy Graham's"},{"startTime":1191.87,"endTime":1196.07,"body":"sermons in the 1950s, like unless America"},{"startTime":1196.07,"endTime":1200.18,"body":"Repents, we're gonna become communist,"},{"startTime":1196.07,"endTime":1200.18,"body":"it's the same sort of way that conspiracy"},{"startTime":1200.18,"endTime":1205.07,"body":"theory kind of, kind of kickstarts,"},{"startTime":1200.18,"endTime":1205.07,"body":"it's kind of like this noss into the"},{"startTime":1205.07,"endTime":1210.35,"body":"engine, so to speak, that really gives"},{"startTime":1205.07,"endTime":1210.35,"body":"this gospel urgency and, and relevancy."},{"startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1216.379,"body":"But at, at the core of it, it's, it's"},{"startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1216.379,"body":"more about making society work than it"},{"startTime":1216.379,"endTime":1221.81,"body":"is about, about letting society receive"},{"startTime":1216.379,"endTime":1221.81,"body":"from God what it's supposed to receive."},{"startTime":1222.11,"endTime":1227.15,"body":"So again, this, this idea of making"},{"startTime":1222.11,"endTime":1227.15,"body":"America work is, is at the heart of these"},{"startTime":1227.15,"endTime":1231.47,"body":"conspiracy theories, these stories that"},{"startTime":1227.15,"endTime":1231.47,"body":"people tell and, and deeper in that it's"},{"startTime":1231.47,"endTime":1233.6,"body":"just, it's just our, our material lives."},{"startTime":1233.6,"endTime":1234.8,"body":"It's our material possessions."},{"startTime":1234.95,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"We tell these stories because we"},{"startTime":1234.95,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"don't want to be dispossessed, not"},{"startTime":1237.92,"endTime":1242.48,"body":"only of certainty, but only, but also"},{"startTime":1237.92,"endTime":1242.48,"body":"dispossessed of our own, of our own lives."},{"startTime":1242.48,"endTime":1244.22,"body":"Our economics are our possessions."},{"startTime":1244.34,"endTime":1245.18,"body":"It's all at stake."},{"startTime":1245.39,"endTime":1247.01,"body":"It's all at stake in these"},{"startTime":1245.39,"endTime":1247.01,"body":"stories that we tell."},{"startTime":1247.535,"endTime":1247.985,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1248.195,"endTime":1248.765,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1249.305,"endTime":1255.815,"body":"And when you say make America work,"},{"startTime":1249.305,"endTime":1255.815,"body":"you mean work within, uh, the framework"},{"startTime":1255.875,"endTime":1261.575,"body":"or perspective of white powerful men?"},{"startTime":1261.605,"endTime":1261.935,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1262.025,"endTime":1262.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1262.475,"endTime":1263.81,"body":"Like all together make America"},{"startTime":1263.81,"endTime":1265.505,"body":"work for us."},{"startTime":1265.505,"endTime":1265.715,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1265.715,"endTime":1266.645,"body":"And who's the us?"},{"startTime":1266.645,"endTime":1267.665,"body":"It's, it's the white."},{"startTime":1267.665,"endTime":1272.315,"body":"And you know, back in Whitfield's day, it"},{"startTime":1267.665,"endTime":1272.315,"body":"was the white slave owner, uh, property"},{"startTime":1272.315,"endTime":1274.73,"body":"owning, you know, male, that that."},{"startTime":1274.73,"endTime":1274.731,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1275.105,"endTime":1279.395,"body":"And so when I say, yeah, make"},{"startTime":1275.105,"endTime":1279.395,"body":"America work, the, the asterisk is"},{"startTime":1279.395,"endTime":1281.825,"body":"like, you know, for some, uh mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1281.83,"endTime":1285.095,"body":"Not, not for all, for the rich,"},{"startTime":1281.83,"endTime":1285.095,"body":"um, for, for the, you know, so"},{"startTime":1285.245,"endTime":1288.905,"body":"it's, it's always those asterisk"},{"startTime":1285.245,"endTime":1288.905,"body":"make America great again for who."},{"startTime":1288.965,"endTime":1293.135,"body":"And then when you see our president kind"},{"startTime":1288.965,"endTime":1293.135,"body":"of patting his buddies on the back for"},{"startTime":1293.375,"endTime":1297.035,"body":"tanking the stock market and saying, Hey,"},{"startTime":1293.375,"endTime":1297.035,"body":"like, it'd be a good idea to buy today."},{"startTime":1297.365,"endTime":1299.735,"body":"Um, so his friends can get rich, right?"},{"startTime":1299.735,"endTime":1300.845,"body":"Like mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1300.846,"endTime":1302.585,"body":"That's make America work for those people."},{"startTime":1302.975,"endTime":1303.575,"body":"Um, right."},{"startTime":1303.575,"endTime":1305.705,"body":"And the church has never"},{"startTime":1303.575,"endTime":1305.705,"body":"been about that task."},{"startTime":1305.975,"endTime":1309.245,"body":"The church has always been, it's like,"},{"startTime":1305.975,"endTime":1309.245,"body":"how do we make society, how do we"},{"startTime":1309.245,"endTime":1312.995,"body":"contribute to society in such a way that"},{"startTime":1309.245,"endTime":1312.995,"body":"the poor, the marginalized, are uplifted?"},{"startTime":1313.265,"endTime":1316.355,"body":"And that's why Jesus says they're"},{"startTime":1313.265,"endTime":1316.355,"body":"blessed, not because poverty is"},{"startTime":1316.355,"endTime":1320.735,"body":"inherently more holy, but because"},{"startTime":1316.355,"endTime":1320.735,"body":"it's closer to the recognition that"},{"startTime":1320.855,"endTime":1322.505,"body":"God is all we need and all we have."},{"startTime":1322.835,"endTime":1327.005,"body":"Uh, and, and that is what the church in"},{"startTime":1322.835,"endTime":1327.005,"body":"America has forgotten, and that's what"},{"startTime":1327.005,"endTime":1328.385,"body":"our conspiracy theories pressed down."},{"startTime":1329.015,"endTime":1330.78,"body":"You know, that's what they press down do."},{"startTime":1331.115,"endTime":1337.715,"body":"Do you feel like the church in America"},{"startTime":1331.115,"endTime":1337.715,"body":"in at large has ever known that?"},{"startTime":1337.805,"endTime":1340.745,"body":"Like, is it something we forgot or"},{"startTime":1337.805,"endTime":1340.745,"body":"is it something we never believed?"},{"startTime":1340.775,"endTime":1341.045,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1341.855,"endTime":1345.785,"body":"I think there are, when we talk about"},{"startTime":1341.855,"endTime":1345.785,"body":"the church, there's always gonna be"},{"startTime":1345.845,"endTime":1347.675,"body":"varied expressions in communities."},{"startTime":1347.675,"endTime":1349.325,"body":"And I, you know, the, the."},{"startTime":1350.3,"endTime":1351.5,"body":"It's, you know, yeah."},{"startTime":1351.5,"endTime":1355.88,"body":"It's the African American church"},{"startTime":1351.5,"endTime":1355.88,"body":"has in the United States been the"},{"startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1358.82,"body":"carrier of this sort of faithfulness"},{"startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1358.82,"body":"and this sort of witness."},{"startTime":1359.12,"endTime":1360.32,"body":"So yes."},{"startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1365.15,"body":"And then the question is, uh, I never"},{"startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1365.15,"body":"went to an African American church."},{"startTime":1365.21,"endTime":1369.68,"body":"I never heard these things, uh,"},{"startTime":1365.21,"endTime":1369.68,"body":"until the spirit brought me into"},{"startTime":1369.68,"endTime":1373.85,"body":"places that I did not choose and, and"},{"startTime":1369.68,"endTime":1373.85,"body":"brought me through situations that I,"},{"startTime":1373.85,"endTime":1378.41,"body":"I would not want to go through, um,"},{"startTime":1373.85,"endTime":1378.41,"body":"to realize what, what I didn't know,"},{"startTime":1378.8,"endTime":1380.15,"body":"and to realize that you never know."},{"startTime":1380.24,"endTime":1381.2,"body":"You just have to keep learning."},{"startTime":1381.77,"endTime":1387.5,"body":"And that sense of that sense of"},{"startTime":1381.77,"endTime":1387.5,"body":"certainty, uh, God's just ruins that."},{"startTime":1387.77,"endTime":1391.28,"body":"And so, yeah, I, I think that that"},{"startTime":1387.77,"endTime":1391.28,"body":"African American church has known that,"},{"startTime":1391.7,"endTime":1397.64,"body":"has possessed that knowledge, has worked"},{"startTime":1391.7,"endTime":1397.64,"body":"and lived from that knowledge, um, and"},{"startTime":1397.64,"endTime":1400.22,"body":"to the detriment of the white church."},{"startTime":1400.22,"endTime":1406.61,"body":"I. In America, we have told stories"},{"startTime":1400.22,"endTime":1406.61,"body":"that in some ways can express our angst."},{"startTime":1406.61,"endTime":1409.25,"body":"Like, I wanna be honest, like"},{"startTime":1406.61,"endTime":1409.25,"body":"conspiracy theories are a way for"},{"startTime":1409.25,"endTime":1414.83,"body":"people who have developed distrust,"},{"startTime":1409.25,"endTime":1414.83,"body":"um, to, to attempt to narrate that."},{"startTime":1415.19,"endTime":1420.08,"body":"And so like that's where I kind of get on"},{"startTime":1415.19,"endTime":1420.08,"body":"this, this cutting edge of saying, what's"},{"startTime":1420.08,"endTime":1423.889,"body":"going on when people are sharing these"},{"startTime":1420.08,"endTime":1423.889,"body":"things, it's more than what meets the eye."},{"startTime":1423.98,"endTime":1424.37,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1424.37,"endTime":1428.149,"body":"I think that's something, I mean, you"},{"startTime":1424.37,"endTime":1428.149,"body":"guys have heard conspiracy theories,"},{"startTime":1428.149,"endTime":1431.03,"body":"like, do, do you get the sense that when"},{"startTime":1428.149,"endTime":1431.03,"body":"someone's sharing this, that they're."},{"startTime":1431.555,"endTime":1433.385,"body":"They're, they're not just"},{"startTime":1431.555,"endTime":1433.385,"body":"talking about what's happening."},{"startTime":1433.39,"endTime":1435.605,"body":"They're, they're, they're"},{"startTime":1433.39,"endTime":1435.605,"body":"trying to narrate evil."},{"startTime":1435.875,"endTime":1441.095,"body":"They're trying to be a moral person,"},{"startTime":1435.875,"endTime":1441.095,"body":"even if, even if some of it sounds wild."},{"startTime":1441.785,"endTime":1443.105,"body":"Um, do you get that sense?"},{"startTime":1443.105,"endTime":1445.415,"body":"Can we, can we at least kind"},{"startTime":1443.105,"endTime":1445.415,"body":"of, can we get to that point?"},{"startTime":1445.415,"endTime":1445.53,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":1445.56,"endTime":1445.85,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1445.925,"endTime":1446.225,"body":"I think"},{"startTime":1446.225,"endTime":1451.055,"body":"also like you can see it and like, I"},{"startTime":1446.225,"endTime":1451.055,"body":"think the visual arts music, well, the"},{"startTime":1451.085,"endTime":1455.285,"body":"music and film have been, and, and I'm"},{"startTime":1451.085,"endTime":1455.285,"body":"speaking from a perspective of like a"},{"startTime":1455.285,"endTime":1459.545,"body":"white centered, uh, place, have have"},{"startTime":1455.285,"endTime":1459.545,"body":"been a place where we've worked those"},{"startTime":1459.545,"endTime":1461.705,"body":"things out, where we've tried to narrate."},{"startTime":1462.169,"endTime":1466.669,"body":"How we feel and how we interact"},{"startTime":1462.169,"endTime":1466.669,"body":"with good and evil and conspiracies."},{"startTime":1466.669,"endTime":1469.219,"body":"If you, especially if you just watch"},{"startTime":1466.669,"endTime":1469.219,"body":"movies like they're the center, a"},{"startTime":1469.219,"endTime":1470.659,"body":"lot of movies or they're a plot line."},{"startTime":1470.659,"endTime":1470.75,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1471.439,"endTime":1476.57,"body":"So I think like I agree, like I think"},{"startTime":1471.439,"endTime":1476.57,"body":"our society has, has been, was born on"},{"startTime":1476.57,"endTime":1481.875,"body":"it and, and in, in a way we've, we've"},{"startTime":1476.57,"endTime":1481.875,"body":"profited each time we've had one, like"},{"startTime":1481.879,"endTime":1488.51,"body":"it's, it's, it's reaped rewards for us"},{"startTime":1481.879,"endTime":1488.51,"body":"at the, um, at the cost of someone else"},{"startTime":1488.57,"endTime":1490.28,"body":"and at least in another people group."},{"startTime":1490.28,"endTime":1492.59,"body":"So, yeah, I a hundred"},{"startTime":1490.28,"endTime":1492.59,"body":"percent agree with you there."},{"startTime":1492.59,"endTime":1497.87,"body":"And I think that that's what makes it hard"},{"startTime":1492.59,"endTime":1497.87,"body":"is that it's hard to wake up from that and"},{"startTime":1497.87,"endTime":1502.85,"body":"it's hard to even see anything different"},{"startTime":1497.87,"endTime":1502.85,"body":"because this is a generational thing."},{"startTime":1502.879,"endTime":1505.34,"body":"Like this is not something"},{"startTime":1502.879,"endTime":1505.34,"body":"that just happened overnight."},{"startTime":1506.06,"endTime":1510.709,"body":"My concern though is that it feels"},{"startTime":1506.06,"endTime":1510.709,"body":"like it's ramped up to a level"},{"startTime":1511.04,"endTime":1515.36,"body":"to where it's either you're in or"},{"startTime":1511.04,"endTime":1515.36,"body":"you're out and, and if you're out."},{"startTime":1515.875,"endTime":1519.235,"body":"Uh, like if you don't believe in"},{"startTime":1515.875,"endTime":1519.235,"body":"it and you're out, then, then the,"},{"startTime":1519.325,"endTime":1522.685,"body":"the Christian aspect that is coming"},{"startTime":1519.325,"endTime":1522.685,"body":"into this is, well, now you're,"},{"startTime":1522.685,"endTime":1524.77,"body":"you know, a demon or you're mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1524.85,"endTime":1529.525,"body":"You're possessed or you're in judgment"},{"startTime":1524.85,"endTime":1529.525,"body":"of hell and you're against us and, and"},{"startTime":1529.525,"endTime":1532.255,"body":"we can't have anybody be against us."},{"startTime":1532.285,"endTime":1534.145,"body":"And like, I don't know how to bridge that."},{"startTime":1534.175,"endTime":1539.905,"body":"Like that to me is the frightening part,"},{"startTime":1534.175,"endTime":1539.905,"body":"is that, that, that it's become this anger"},{"startTime":1539.905,"endTime":1544.81,"body":"and this anger and tone that it's like"},{"startTime":1539.905,"endTime":1544.81,"body":"if your mom or dad believes it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1544.895,"endTime":1546.955,"body":"And you don't, that may be it."},{"startTime":1547.105,"endTime":1550.195,"body":"Like you may not, they may"},{"startTime":1547.105,"endTime":1550.195,"body":"not wanna talk to you anymore."},{"startTime":1550.675,"endTime":1552.085,"body":"Um, so I don't know."},{"startTime":1552.085,"endTime":1554.995,"body":"I don't know if I have a question with"},{"startTime":1552.085,"endTime":1554.995,"body":"that, but that's, I think my concern is"},{"startTime":1554.995,"endTime":1560.725,"body":"that it feels like it's at such a fever"},{"startTime":1554.995,"endTime":1560.725,"body":"pitch, uh, to where it doesn't feel"},{"startTime":1560.725,"endTime":1563.545,"body":"like there's room for conversations."},{"startTime":1564.205,"endTime":1564.505,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1564.775,"endTime":1569.035,"body":"I think you're naming for many of"},{"startTime":1564.775,"endTime":1569.035,"body":"us just pain and we, we, we've."},{"startTime":1569.389,"endTime":1575.06,"body":"We've been in this moment of dis reality"},{"startTime":1569.389,"endTime":1575.06,"body":"for so long, and the news cycle and"},{"startTime":1575.06,"endTime":1576.86,"body":"the speed of information is such that."},{"startTime":1577.835,"endTime":1580.115,"body":"Being able to account for the loss."},{"startTime":1580.445,"endTime":1585.005,"body":"Um, I mean, in some ways that's,"},{"startTime":1580.445,"endTime":1585.005,"body":"that's what I hope my book is"},{"startTime":1585.005,"endTime":1590.555,"body":"able to do is give language and"},{"startTime":1585.005,"endTime":1590.555,"body":"space for that kind of mourning."},{"startTime":1590.765,"endTime":1595.325,"body":"Um, and that kind of fracturing, I"},{"startTime":1590.765,"endTime":1595.325,"body":"mean, I saw it as a pastor and I saw"},{"startTime":1595.355,"endTime":1598.955,"body":"it splitting families and kitchen"},{"startTime":1595.355,"endTime":1598.955,"body":"tables and, and church communities."},{"startTime":1598.955,"endTime":1600.155,"body":"And we, we've all seen it."},{"startTime":1600.575,"endTime":1604.295,"body":"Um, and everyone, and, and I, I"},{"startTime":1600.575,"endTime":1604.295,"body":"wanna like affirm that everyone"},{"startTime":1604.295,"endTime":1606.995,"body":"does like, rightly kinda want,"},{"startTime":1604.295,"endTime":1606.995,"body":"like, what are we supposed to do?"},{"startTime":1607.175,"endTime":1610.265,"body":"Like how do we, how do we, and I, I"},{"startTime":1607.175,"endTime":1610.265,"body":"think really the first thing is just"},{"startTime":1610.565,"endTime":1615.065,"body":"it's appropriate to grieve and mourn,"},{"startTime":1610.565,"endTime":1615.065,"body":"um, some loss of common ground, some"},{"startTime":1615.065,"endTime":1619.565,"body":"loss of, um, you know, the ability to"},{"startTime":1615.065,"endTime":1619.565,"body":"talk and it, and from that place of pain,"},{"startTime":1619.565,"endTime":1624.575,"body":"it can be really easy to lash out and,"},{"startTime":1619.565,"endTime":1624.575,"body":"and say thing like pathologize people."},{"startTime":1624.875,"endTime":1628.085,"body":"And I think that's something that"},{"startTime":1624.875,"endTime":1628.085,"body":"I've, I've wrestled with and grappled"},{"startTime":1628.085,"endTime":1633.875,"body":"with in talking about this in public"},{"startTime":1628.085,"endTime":1633.875,"body":"is how do we raise this, this crisis?"},{"startTime":1633.875,"endTime":1635.345,"body":"How do we enter this crisis?"},{"startTime":1636.185,"endTime":1640.504,"body":"While refusing to hold others in contempt,"},{"startTime":1636.185,"endTime":1640.504,"body":"while recognizing that the sort of disre"},{"startTime":1640.504,"endTime":1645.305,"body":"reality that swirling around us does have"},{"startTime":1640.504,"endTime":1645.305,"body":"consequences beyond just like politics as"},{"startTime":1645.305,"endTime":1651.544,"body":"a hobby horse, like people are, are being,"},{"startTime":1645.305,"endTime":1651.544,"body":"uh, not just deported, but disappeared."},{"startTime":1651.905,"endTime":1654.815,"body":"Like these are the things"},{"startTime":1651.905,"endTime":1654.815,"body":"that are happening on the,"},{"startTime":1655.235,"endTime":1657.034,"body":"the outer edges of society."},{"startTime":1657.065,"endTime":1660.185,"body":"And I know many people, like for example,"},{"startTime":1657.065,"endTime":1660.185,"body":"right now, would look at things like,"},{"startTime":1660.635,"endTime":1666.695,"body":"you know, um, screening international"},{"startTime":1660.635,"endTime":1666.695,"body":"students for, um, various political"},{"startTime":1666.695,"endTime":1670.415,"body":"views and saying, well, we, you know,"},{"startTime":1666.695,"endTime":1670.415,"body":"uh, now I was an international student"},{"startTime":1670.415,"endTime":1676.685,"body":"in the uk and the, the reality that"},{"startTime":1670.415,"endTime":1676.685,"body":"the government could, in many ways,"},{"startTime":1676.685,"endTime":1682.085,"body":"just, I, I hope people see that it may"},{"startTime":1676.685,"endTime":1682.085,"body":"not be centered on you at this moment."},{"startTime":1682.415,"endTime":1687.155,"body":"But some of us, it, it may never"},{"startTime":1682.415,"endTime":1687.155,"body":"be centered on us because of"},{"startTime":1687.155,"endTime":1689.675,"body":"the way that we look, because of"},{"startTime":1687.155,"endTime":1689.675,"body":"the tax bracket that we're in,"},{"startTime":1689.675,"endTime":1691.025,"body":"because of the jobs that we have."},{"startTime":1691.205,"endTime":1694.055,"body":"And so I think it's really important,"},{"startTime":1691.205,"endTime":1694.055,"body":"and that's what the church as a community"},{"startTime":1694.08,"endTime":1699.395,"body":"is, is supposed to do, is actually be"},{"startTime":1694.08,"endTime":1699.395,"body":"the place where these stories and these"},{"startTime":1699.395,"endTime":1704.615,"body":"slogans and these narratives are actually"},{"startTime":1699.395,"endTime":1704.615,"body":"emptied of their power in our midst."},{"startTime":1704.915,"endTime":1708.065,"body":"But unfortunately, they're being"},{"startTime":1704.915,"endTime":1708.065,"body":"supercharged and they're being"},{"startTime":1708.065,"endTime":1712.085,"body":"supercharged, not just through overt,"},{"startTime":1708.065,"endTime":1712.085,"body":"like there are some really clear on-ramps."},{"startTime":1712.085,"endTime":1713.015,"body":"Lemme be very clear about this."},{"startTime":1713.165,"endTime":1717.335,"body":"Like there's some really clear on-ramps"},{"startTime":1713.165,"endTime":1717.335,"body":"to conspiratorial thinking, to baking"},{"startTime":1717.335,"endTime":1722.465,"body":"conspiracy into, uh, Christianity"},{"startTime":1717.335,"endTime":1722.465,"body":"through like huge organizations"},{"startTime":1722.525,"endTime":1724.265,"body":"Turning point USA is one, theos U."},{"startTime":1724.715,"endTime":1729.395,"body":"Like there's these ideas that, that that"},{"startTime":1724.715,"endTime":1729.395,"body":"percolate kind of on the edges that you"},{"startTime":1729.395,"endTime":1733.445,"body":"start to say, well this is Jesus and this"},{"startTime":1729.395,"endTime":1733.445,"body":"is kind of what it means to be biblical."},{"startTime":1733.445,"endTime":1735.965,"body":"And, and we, we don't have"},{"startTime":1733.445,"endTime":1735.965,"body":"the time to separate that."},{"startTime":1736.355,"endTime":1740.795,"body":"Um, but then, so it's not just"},{"startTime":1736.355,"endTime":1740.795,"body":"overt and I, it is also silence too."},{"startTime":1741.754,"endTime":1745.264,"body":"It's just churches that say"},{"startTime":1741.754,"endTime":1745.264,"body":"we don't talk politics here."},{"startTime":1745.685,"endTime":1749.165,"body":"And that leaves politics"},{"startTime":1745.685,"endTime":1749.165,"body":"then off the table."},{"startTime":1749.495,"endTime":1752.195,"body":"Then you can choose to believe any"},{"startTime":1749.495,"endTime":1752.195,"body":"conspiracy theory that you want."},{"startTime":1752.615,"endTime":1755.705,"body":"Um, but the challenge with this, and"},{"startTime":1752.615,"endTime":1755.705,"body":"I'll just kind of, I wanna hear from you"},{"startTime":1755.705,"endTime":1759.845,"body":"guys, but I, I keep, the challenge with"},{"startTime":1755.705,"endTime":1759.845,"body":"this is that for many pastors, they don't"},{"startTime":1759.845,"endTime":1765.365,"body":"have the time, the energy or the desire"},{"startTime":1759.845,"endTime":1765.365,"body":"or the ability to be a fact checker."},{"startTime":1765.665,"endTime":1767.945,"body":"And that's what we think"},{"startTime":1765.665,"endTime":1767.945,"body":"we have to be to fix this."},{"startTime":1768.514,"endTime":1775.355,"body":"And I think what I want to suggest"},{"startTime":1768.514,"endTime":1775.355,"body":"is that the subversive power of the"},{"startTime":1775.355,"endTime":1784.024,"body":"Christian story is sufficient to"},{"startTime":1775.355,"endTime":1784.024,"body":"serve as a buffer between us and"},{"startTime":1784.024,"endTime":1788.284,"body":"the conspiracy theories that make"},{"startTime":1784.024,"endTime":1788.284,"body":"things, that claim to reveal things."},{"startTime":1788.705,"endTime":1793.564,"body":"Um, and so I, I'll just kind of quote, uh,"},{"startTime":1788.705,"endTime":1793.564,"body":"Brian Brock, he has this great statement."},{"startTime":1793.564,"endTime":1797.885,"body":"He's a fellow ethicist and he says that"},{"startTime":1793.564,"endTime":1797.885,"body":"the only thing that the church knows that"},{"startTime":1797.885,"endTime":1800.435,"body":"the world doesn't is who sustains it."},{"startTime":1801.44,"endTime":1805.4,"body":"And that completely flips things on its"},{"startTime":1801.44,"endTime":1805.4,"body":"head because we as Christians, if you're"},{"startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1809.66,"body":"raised in evangelicalism, we all have"},{"startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1809.66,"body":"this sense that apologetics is like,"},{"startTime":1809.66,"endTime":1811.19,"body":"means we have to have all the answers."},{"startTime":1811.64,"endTime":1815.09,"body":"But what if we started to think like, no,"},{"startTime":1811.64,"endTime":1815.09,"body":"the one thing that that, that we know,"},{"startTime":1815.09,"endTime":1818.629,"body":"that we confess is that Jesus is Lord."},{"startTime":1819.77,"endTime":1824.06,"body":"But that, that doesn't get to get"},{"startTime":1819.77,"endTime":1824.06,"body":"stretched over everything in the"},{"startTime":1824.06,"endTime":1827.15,"body":"sense that, you know, you know"},{"startTime":1824.06,"endTime":1827.15,"body":"what goes on behind closed doors."},{"startTime":1827.15,"endTime":1830.0,"body":"The Christian knowledge"},{"startTime":1827.15,"endTime":1830.0,"body":"is not omniscience."},{"startTime":1830.0,"endTime":1834.44,"body":"I. Christian knowledge is not omniscience,"},{"startTime":1830.0,"endTime":1834.44,"body":"but that's what's happening when"},{"startTime":1834.44,"endTime":1838.01,"body":"people are kind of sharing conspiracy"},{"startTime":1834.44,"endTime":1838.01,"body":"theory as an expression of their faith."},{"startTime":1838.399,"endTime":1839.99,"body":"Um, that's what's happening"},{"startTime":1840.32,"endTime":1843.05,"body":"when you mention like Turning"},{"startTime":1840.32,"endTime":1843.05,"body":"Point or Theo u mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1843.74,"endTime":1845.78,"body":"I think Prager can be in there."},{"startTime":1846.26,"endTime":1846.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1846.44,"endTime":1846.95,"body":"Uh, yeah, that's another one."},{"startTime":1847.19,"endTime":1853.01,"body":"What has been interesting is"},{"startTime":1847.19,"endTime":1853.01,"body":"watching pastors who, when I"},{"startTime":1853.01,"endTime":1854.48,"body":"was in the thick of it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1854.72,"endTime":1856.49,"body":"They were like the edgy pastors."},{"startTime":1856.49,"endTime":1860.84,"body":"So like Matt Chandler was the edgy"},{"startTime":1856.49,"endTime":1860.84,"body":"dude when I was like really in it."},{"startTime":1860.84,"endTime":1862.129,"body":"Like he was the cool one."},{"startTime":1862.399,"endTime":1862.55,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1862.73,"endTime":1863.075,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1863.389,"endTime":1863.6,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1863.66,"endTime":1867.59,"body":"You know, people know where we"},{"startTime":1863.66,"endTime":1867.59,"body":"stand on that as a podcast now,"},{"startTime":1867.735,"endTime":1872.795,"body":"but, but like, he headlined Theo's"},{"startTime":1867.735,"endTime":1872.795,"body":"conference one year, like mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1873.02,"endTime":1874.28,"body":"It has been so."},{"startTime":1875.074,"endTime":1879.004,"body":"Like brought into the forefronts of Yeah."},{"startTime":1879.034,"endTime":1879.995,"body":"Evangelicalism."},{"startTime":1879.995,"endTime":1883.864,"body":"Like the, like, I mean I think"},{"startTime":1879.995,"endTime":1883.864,"body":"Matt is probably considered like"},{"startTime":1883.864,"endTime":1886.294,"body":"pretty vanilla now at this point."},{"startTime":1886.354,"endTime":1886.445,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1886.715,"endTime":1888.935,"body":"In the grand scape of things."},{"startTime":1889.054,"endTime":1895.024,"body":"And like vanilla Matt, who again"},{"startTime":1889.054,"endTime":1895.024,"body":"has his own problems, you've heard"},{"startTime":1895.024,"endTime":1896.314,"body":"about them on the podcast mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1896.584,"endTime":1901.564,"body":"Is like headlining this conference that is"},{"startTime":1896.584,"endTime":1901.564,"body":"filled with people that were like, wasn't"},{"startTime":1901.564,"endTime":1907.864,"body":"the OU part of the like worship revival,"},{"startTime":1901.564,"endTime":1907.864,"body":"Sean Foyt stuff that was going on too?"},{"startTime":1907.864,"endTime":1909.455,"body":"Or was, was it not him?"},{"startTime":1909.455,"endTime":1910.669,"body":"I don't, there was, I don't, I"},{"startTime":1910.669,"endTime":1910.87,"body":"don't know."},{"startTime":1912.094,"endTime":1912.635,"body":"Potentially."},{"startTime":1912.635,"endTime":1912.784,"body":"I dunno."},{"startTime":1912.965,"endTime":1916.594,"body":"So some of my re Yeah, like what"},{"startTime":1912.965,"endTime":1916.594,"body":"you're talking about with like"},{"startTime":1916.625,"endTime":1920.314,"body":"Sean Foyt and that, I mean, it,"},{"startTime":1916.625,"endTime":1920.314,"body":"it's this whole net network."},{"startTime":1920.344,"endTime":1921.395,"body":"It's this whole ecosystem."},{"startTime":1921.395,"endTime":1921.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1921.455,"endTime":1923.405,"body":"And so there's different pools"},{"startTime":1921.455,"endTime":1923.405,"body":"that people are playing in."},{"startTime":1923.675,"endTime":1925.385,"body":"I think we can say enough"},{"startTime":1923.675,"endTime":1925.385,"body":"to be confident, like Yeah."},{"startTime":1925.385,"endTime":1929.165,"body":"Like there are certain influences"},{"startTime":1925.385,"endTime":1929.165,"body":"and connections between the OU"},{"startTime":1929.405,"endTime":1930.635,"body":"and those sort of movements."},{"startTime":1930.814,"endTime":1933.754,"body":"And I think what's really difficult"},{"startTime":1930.814,"endTime":1933.754,"body":"is in a political moment where like."},{"startTime":1934.265,"endTime":1937.805,"body":"Like certainty is such a credit"},{"startTime":1934.265,"endTime":1937.805,"body":"to make America great again."},{"startTime":1938.11,"endTime":1942.275,"body":"I, I think the, the challenge is"},{"startTime":1938.11,"endTime":1942.275,"body":"that the church is moving at, at"},{"startTime":1942.275,"endTime":1946.235,"body":"the speed of politics, and it's"},{"startTime":1942.275,"endTime":1946.235,"body":"moving at the speed of this moment."},{"startTime":1946.265,"endTime":1949.505,"body":"And really, it's not like"},{"startTime":1946.265,"endTime":1949.505,"body":"there's a lack of answers."},{"startTime":1949.505,"endTime":1951.965,"body":"It's not like there's a"},{"startTime":1949.505,"endTime":1951.965,"body":"lack of, of, of a word."},{"startTime":1952.055,"endTime":1952.775,"body":"There is a word."},{"startTime":1953.465,"endTime":1959.015,"body":"And, and, but the church's attention"},{"startTime":1953.465,"endTime":1959.015,"body":"to that word is being silenced by"},{"startTime":1959.015,"endTime":1962.795,"body":"a rogue word, like by Trump who's"},{"startTime":1959.015,"endTime":1962.795,"body":"organizing all of this stuff."},{"startTime":1962.885,"endTime":1966.035,"body":"And when, and I, you know, John, when"},{"startTime":1962.885,"endTime":1966.035,"body":"you, when you talk about revival, I'm,"},{"startTime":1966.11,"endTime":1969.185,"body":"I, I don't think we've, I don't think"},{"startTime":1966.11,"endTime":1969.185,"body":"we're prepared to really wrestle with"},{"startTime":1969.185,"endTime":1973.475,"body":"the fact that a resurgence in religion"},{"startTime":1969.185,"endTime":1973.475,"body":"and a resurgence in Christianity"},{"startTime":1973.475,"endTime":1976.085,"body":"in America that the data shows us."},{"startTime":1976.085,"endTime":1979.025,"body":"So this is where kind of the conspiracy"},{"startTime":1976.085,"endTime":1979.025,"body":"theory comes in and we think, well, we"},{"startTime":1979.025,"endTime":1981.575,"body":"can just unseat conspiracies with data."},{"startTime":1982.085,"endTime":1984.455,"body":"We can't even prove our faith with data."},{"startTime":1985.805,"endTime":1988.475,"body":"Um, that if we were to go back"},{"startTime":1985.805,"endTime":1988.475,"body":"into a Timeish machine, which is"},{"startTime":1988.475,"endTime":1992.315,"body":"impossible, if we were to stand there"},{"startTime":1988.475,"endTime":1992.315,"body":"and witness the crucifixion of Jesus."},{"startTime":1992.87,"endTime":1996.919,"body":"By the logics and the stories told of"},{"startTime":1992.87,"endTime":1996.919,"body":"that day, you and I would all conclude"},{"startTime":1996.919,"endTime":2001.36,"body":"like, oh, this was just an insurrectionist"},{"startTime":1996.919,"endTime":2001.36,"body":"who'd been murdered by Rome."},{"startTime":2001.75,"endTime":2006.07,"body":"That passing that line from the"},{"startTime":2001.75,"endTime":2006.07,"body":"meaning of an event to faith"},{"startTime":2006.58,"endTime":2009.37,"body":"data does not render that for us."},{"startTime":2009.46,"endTime":2010.81,"body":"It doesn't do that for us."},{"startTime":2010.96,"endTime":2013.99,"body":"And so that sounds really disheartening"},{"startTime":2010.96,"endTime":2013.99,"body":"to people who are like, wait a minute,"},{"startTime":2013.99,"endTime":2018.129,"body":"you mean I can't like share data to help"},{"startTime":2013.99,"endTime":2018.129,"body":"unseat people from conspiracy theory?"},{"startTime":2018.129,"endTime":2018.909,"body":"I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not."},{"startTime":2019.09,"endTime":2019.99,"body":"I'm not saying that."},{"startTime":2019.99,"endTime":2023.889,"body":"I'm saying there's a place for"},{"startTime":2019.99,"endTime":2023.889,"body":"data, but reality is more than data."},{"startTime":2024.31,"endTime":2027.639,"body":"Like God's reality is more"},{"startTime":2024.31,"endTime":2027.639,"body":"than what the data says."},{"startTime":2027.76,"endTime":2031.149,"body":"And so when there's talk of revival,"},{"startTime":2027.76,"endTime":2031.149,"body":"when there's whispers of revival,"},{"startTime":2031.149,"endTime":2035.08,"body":"when people point to the data and say,"},{"startTime":2031.149,"endTime":2035.08,"body":"look at the youth who are, who are"},{"startTime":2035.169,"endTime":2040.78,"body":"flocking to Theos U or Turning Point"},{"startTime":2035.169,"endTime":2040.78,"body":"USA, we have to be attentive enough"},{"startTime":2040.78,"endTime":2047.2,"body":"to the word to who Jesus is to say and"},{"startTime":2040.78,"endTime":2047.2,"body":"and what sort of Jesus is being held"},{"startTime":2047.2,"endTime":2050.094,"body":"up in their midst because antichrist."},{"startTime":2051.205,"endTime":2054.895,"body":"Can be lifted up and worshiped"},{"startTime":2051.205,"endTime":2054.895,"body":"in a way that's impossible to"},{"startTime":2054.895,"endTime":2056.905,"body":"distinguish except by our fruit."},{"startTime":2057.415,"endTime":2061.465,"body":"So then that, that invites the question,"},{"startTime":2057.415,"endTime":2061.465,"body":"what are the fruit of these movements?"},{"startTime":2061.945,"endTime":2065.905,"body":"Where, where, where, where are they"},{"startTime":2061.945,"endTime":2065.905,"body":"asking people to put their hope"},{"startTime":2065.905,"endTime":2067.705,"body":"and their trust and their security?"},{"startTime":2068.035,"endTime":2070.255,"body":"And it's, it's in, it's"},{"startTime":2068.035,"endTime":2070.255,"body":"in, it's in America."},{"startTime":2070.765,"endTime":2072.565,"body":"It's in making America great again."},{"startTime":2072.835,"endTime":2078.325,"body":"Because when you cross that line and"},{"startTime":2072.835,"endTime":2078.325,"body":"you start to criticize tariffs or the"},{"startTime":2078.325,"endTime":2079.975,"body":"administration in any way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":2080.889,"endTime":2084.61,"body":"Then, then, you know, those are"},{"startTime":2080.889,"endTime":2084.61,"body":"the stakes and that's revealing."},{"startTime":2085.06,"endTime":2089.08,"body":"That means to me that the church's"},{"startTime":2085.06,"endTime":2089.08,"body":"attention to the word of Christ has"},{"startTime":2089.08,"endTime":2094.389,"body":"been kind of supplanted from this"},{"startTime":2089.08,"endTime":2094.389,"body":"attention to a rogue word and our,"},{"startTime":2094.389,"endTime":2096.969,"body":"our captivity to data and to facts."},{"startTime":2097.27,"endTime":2100.48,"body":"I'm not saying they're bo, I'm not"},{"startTime":2097.27,"endTime":2100.48,"body":"saying they're wrong, but I'm saying that"},{"startTime":2100.48,"endTime":2106.81,"body":"they're, they're limited in their ability"},{"startTime":2100.48,"endTime":2106.81,"body":"to, to cultivate attention to what, who"},{"startTime":2106.81,"endTime":2111.55,"body":"God is and what he's doing among us, and"},{"startTime":2106.81,"endTime":2111.55,"body":"that that's, that's, that's a uniquely"},{"startTime":2111.55,"endTime":2114.25,"body":"Christian way of approaching the problem."},{"startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2118.57,"body":"I have a question that while you were"},{"startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2118.57,"body":"talking, it kind of sparked this question."},{"startTime":2118.57,"endTime":2123.04,"body":"I'm not sure exactly how it flows"},{"startTime":2118.57,"endTime":2123.04,"body":"into the conversation, but Sure."},{"startTime":2123.04,"endTime":2123.515,"body":"No, we can,"},{"startTime":2124.015,"endTime":2124.75,"body":"we can follow it, but"},{"startTime":2124.75,"endTime":2128.77,"body":"some of the, some of the conversations"},{"startTime":2124.75,"endTime":2128.77,"body":"that I've been having surrounding"},{"startTime":2128.77,"endTime":2132.64,"body":"Christian nationalism, abuse,"},{"startTime":2128.77,"endTime":2132.64,"body":"and the through lines that we're"},{"startTime":2132.64,"endTime":2137.38,"body":"talking about, the beginning of"},{"startTime":2132.64,"endTime":2137.38,"body":"this conversation has been that."},{"startTime":2138.04,"endTime":2141.97,"body":"Rural America has been largely"},{"startTime":2138.04,"endTime":2141.97,"body":"left out of the conversation."},{"startTime":2141.97,"endTime":2142.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2142.24,"endTime":2148.18,"body":"Yet I feel like that is where a"},{"startTime":2142.24,"endTime":2148.18,"body":"majority of radicalization is happening."},{"startTime":2148.75,"endTime":2154.089,"body":"And I, I wanna know what you"},{"startTime":2148.75,"endTime":2154.089,"body":"are seeing on your side of"},{"startTime":2154.089,"endTime":2155.649,"body":"things with conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":2155.859,"endTime":2155.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2156.37,"endTime":2161.049,"body":"In regards to the church in rural"},{"startTime":2156.37,"endTime":2161.049,"body":"America, the white evangelical"},{"startTime":2161.049,"endTime":2162.16,"body":"church in rural America."},{"startTime":2162.16,"endTime":2162.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2162.22,"endTime":2170.29,"body":"And how are, are conspiracy theories"},{"startTime":2162.22,"endTime":2170.29,"body":"being utilized in those spaces to create"},{"startTime":2170.35,"endTime":2174.279,"body":"extremism, um, and for political gain?"},{"startTime":2175.015,"endTime":2175.435,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":2175.44,"endTime":2179.08,"body":"And it's actually, uh, targeting"},{"startTime":2175.44,"endTime":2179.08,"body":"people that are oppressed."},{"startTime":2179.08,"endTime":2183.73,"body":"Like what the rural, poor white"},{"startTime":2179.08,"endTime":2183.73,"body":"Americans that are experiencing"},{"startTime":2184.12,"endTime":2185.529,"body":"oppression in our country."},{"startTime":2186.279,"endTime":2191.529,"body":"I think, I mean, and that's a really"},{"startTime":2186.279,"endTime":2191.529,"body":"good question, and I think it, I. The"},{"startTime":2191.529,"endTime":2196.24,"body":"whole, the whole point of following"},{"startTime":2191.529,"endTime":2196.24,"body":"Jesus and, and the way that he brings our"},{"startTime":2196.24,"endTime":2199.48,"body":"attention onto things that we otherwise"},{"startTime":2196.24,"endTime":2199.48,"body":"might not give our attention to, I think"},{"startTime":2199.48,"endTime":2203.2,"body":"is, is precisely the sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":2199.48,"endTime":2203.2,"body":"we can't be reactive in this moment,"},{"startTime":2203.259,"endTime":2206.439,"body":"even though everything, everything in"},{"startTime":2203.259,"endTime":2206.439,"body":"us wants to be, and conspiracy theories"},{"startTime":2206.439,"endTime":2210.52,"body":"are that kind of reactivity of like,"},{"startTime":2206.439,"endTime":2210.52,"body":"let's blame this person or that person."},{"startTime":2211.0,"endTime":2216.7,"body":"So, um, to that question of like,"},{"startTime":2211.0,"endTime":2216.7,"body":"rural America and, and the stories"},{"startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2221.14,"body":"that are told, you know, I've, I've"},{"startTime":2216.7,"endTime":2221.14,"body":"been doing a lot of thinking about"},{"startTime":2221.2,"endTime":2225.759,"body":"Steinbeck and, and about Grapes of"},{"startTime":2221.2,"endTime":2225.759,"body":"Wrath and, and for those who are not"},{"startTime":2225.759,"endTime":2228.16,"body":"familiar and, and are not gonna go"},{"startTime":2225.759,"endTime":2228.16,"body":"read a novel, and that's totally fine."},{"startTime":2228.43,"endTime":2233.77,"body":"Grapes of Wrath followed, you know,"},{"startTime":2228.43,"endTime":2233.77,"body":"poor rural Americans who were being"},{"startTime":2233.77,"endTime":2238.33,"body":"displaced from their farms in the"},{"startTime":2233.77,"endTime":2238.33,"body":"Midwest through over farming, but also"},{"startTime":2238.33,"endTime":2243.279,"body":"through a complete, you know, economic,"},{"startTime":2238.33,"endTime":2243.279,"body":"uh, overturn where big corporations"},{"startTime":2243.279,"endTime":2246.399,"body":"were coming up and, and mechanizing"},{"startTime":2243.279,"endTime":2246.399,"body":"farm equipment and buying farm land."},{"startTime":2246.399,"endTime":2249.1,"body":"That's a huge generalization,"},{"startTime":2246.399,"endTime":2249.1,"body":"but he followed these."},{"startTime":2249.49,"endTime":2253.66,"body":"Who, who they basically became,"},{"startTime":2249.49,"endTime":2253.66,"body":"um, you know, vagabonds like going"},{"startTime":2253.66,"endTime":2256.99,"body":"around the country and, and it's a"},{"startTime":2253.66,"endTime":2256.99,"body":"story of this family and how they,"},{"startTime":2257.05,"endTime":2259.9,"body":"they provide for each other, but the"},{"startTime":2257.05,"endTime":2259.9,"body":"challenges that they face along the way."},{"startTime":2260.175,"endTime":2264.58,"body":"I, I really think that Steinbeck is"},{"startTime":2260.175,"endTime":2264.58,"body":"resonant now, that, that, that, that"},{"startTime":2264.58,"endTime":2270.91,"body":"idea of what America has always sort"},{"startTime":2264.58,"endTime":2270.91,"body":"of done, um, to the working class."},{"startTime":2271.3,"endTime":2276.91,"body":"And I think it's, I think before we"},{"startTime":2271.3,"endTime":2276.91,"body":"pathologize people in for attempting"},{"startTime":2276.91,"endTime":2282.43,"body":"to relate their problems to express"},{"startTime":2276.91,"endTime":2282.43,"body":"dissent, um, I think we need to be able"},{"startTime":2282.43,"endTime":2286.78,"body":"to adjust for, and of course there's"},{"startTime":2282.43,"endTime":2286.78,"body":"always this very progressive sense"},{"startTime":2286.78,"endTime":2288.61,"body":"where, oh, like those aren't the facts."},{"startTime":2288.61,"endTime":2292.27,"body":"Like, you know, and there's this"},{"startTime":2288.61,"endTime":2292.27,"body":"sense of contemptuous enlightenment,"},{"startTime":2292.81,"endTime":2298.57,"body":"um, on the left in America that"},{"startTime":2292.81,"endTime":2298.57,"body":"leaves the working class behind."},{"startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2301.9,"body":"And, and so I think that"},{"startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2301.9,"body":"question is spot on."},{"startTime":2302.17,"endTime":2306.085,"body":"I think that, um, I. In, in, in"},{"startTime":2302.17,"endTime":2306.085,"body":"the, in the vacuum of any very"},{"startTime":2306.085,"endTime":2310.105,"body":"clear, like economic policy to"},{"startTime":2306.085,"endTime":2310.105,"body":"help, uh, the working class in"},{"startTime":2310.105,"endTime":2312.055,"body":"America, in these rural communities."},{"startTime":2312.174,"endTime":2313.315,"body":"So I saw it in Scotland too."},{"startTime":2313.375,"endTime":2316.944,"body":"Scotland wanted to go and be independent,"},{"startTime":2313.375,"endTime":2316.944,"body":"and the concern was that Edinburgh,"},{"startTime":2317.185,"endTime":2322.375,"body":"Aberdeen, and Glasgow were going to kind"},{"startTime":2317.185,"endTime":2322.375,"body":"of get all the focus if they were to"},{"startTime":2322.404,"endTime":2325.045,"body":"become independent, leaving rural Scots."},{"startTime":2325.194,"endTime":2328.225,"body":"And this, it's the same in,"},{"startTime":2325.194,"endTime":2328.225,"body":"in the States in in many ways."},{"startTime":2328.525,"endTime":2334.105,"body":"Uh, and so all that to say, I think"},{"startTime":2328.525,"endTime":2334.105,"body":"conspiracy theories can be a very easy way"},{"startTime":2334.285,"endTime":2338.755,"body":"for people to express their frustration"},{"startTime":2334.285,"endTime":2338.755,"body":"with the lack of representation."},{"startTime":2339.115,"endTime":2342.72,"body":"But what happens is those"},{"startTime":2339.115,"endTime":2342.72,"body":"conspiracy theories are taken"},{"startTime":2343.315,"endTime":2346.944,"body":"and kind of used to delegitimize"},{"startTime":2343.315,"endTime":2346.944,"body":"their very real political claims."},{"startTime":2347.275,"endTime":2351.415,"body":"So speaking as a churchman, speaking"},{"startTime":2347.275,"endTime":2351.415,"body":"as a theologian, I think my first"},{"startTime":2351.714,"endTime":2358.78,"body":"question would be, I. Does the church"},{"startTime":2351.714,"endTime":2358.78,"body":"see itself as a place where those"},{"startTime":2358.78,"endTime":2361.27,"body":"conspiracies are, are sort of reinforced?"},{"startTime":2361.66,"endTime":2365.32,"body":"Or does the church see itself as this?"},{"startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2369.01,"body":"We are part of what it means for"},{"startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2369.01,"body":"someone's political claim to reach us."},{"startTime":2369.01,"endTime":2373.6,"body":"Like, yes, in a democracy, we, we"},{"startTime":2369.01,"endTime":2373.6,"body":"have a political claim, we make a"},{"startTime":2373.6,"endTime":2376.36,"body":"claim on our representative like"},{"startTime":2373.6,"endTime":2376.36,"body":"you're supposed to represent us."},{"startTime":2376.48,"endTime":2385.51,"body":"But in a, in a, in a kingdom sense, each"},{"startTime":2376.48,"endTime":2385.51,"body":"of our neighbors has a legitimate claim on"},{"startTime":2385.51,"endTime":2388.09,"body":"our lives, and that's a political claim."},{"startTime":2388.63,"endTime":2392.65,"body":"We are responsible to them, for them,"},{"startTime":2388.63,"endTime":2392.65,"body":"just like they're responsible to and"},{"startTime":2392.65,"endTime":2397.03,"body":"for us, I think that's really easy to"},{"startTime":2392.65,"endTime":2397.03,"body":"see in Jesus's teachings, especially"},{"startTime":2397.03,"endTime":2401.59,"body":"when he's like, Hey, if the Roman tells"},{"startTime":2397.03,"endTime":2401.59,"body":"you to carry their pa their pack for"},{"startTime":2401.59,"endTime":2403.75,"body":"two mile, you know, a mile you go too."},{"startTime":2404.05,"endTime":2409.6,"body":"And unfortunately, we turned a teaching"},{"startTime":2404.05,"endTime":2409.6,"body":"about encountering the oppressor."},{"startTime":2410.335,"endTime":2412.884,"body":"Really rendering the"},{"startTime":2410.335,"endTime":2412.884,"body":"oppressor as a human being."},{"startTime":2413.215,"endTime":2413.545,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2413.695,"endTime":2416.005,"body":"Because if you go a second"},{"startTime":2413.695,"endTime":2416.005,"body":"mile, what are they saying?"},{"startTime":2416.005,"endTime":2419.095,"body":"Like there's, that, there's the"},{"startTime":2416.005,"endTime":2419.095,"body":"story that Rome is oppressing us."},{"startTime":2419.215,"endTime":2422.545,"body":"I'm, I'm kind of getting on my soapbox"},{"startTime":2419.215,"endTime":2422.545,"body":"here 'cause this is a good question."},{"startTime":2422.905,"endTime":2427.945,"body":"Um, but that, that teaching of saying"},{"startTime":2422.905,"endTime":2427.945,"body":"like, go the second mile force this"},{"startTime":2427.975,"endTime":2431.485,"body":"Roman oppressor to see you as a human"},{"startTime":2427.975,"endTime":2431.485,"body":"being and you see him as a human being,"},{"startTime":2431.695,"endTime":2433.195,"body":"that's a different sort of politics."},{"startTime":2433.615,"endTime":2437.755,"body":"And so I think in many ways"},{"startTime":2433.615,"endTime":2437.755,"body":"churches in rural America, not"},{"startTime":2437.755,"endTime":2440.725,"body":"all have been this place where"},{"startTime":2437.755,"endTime":2440.725,"body":"conspiracies have been sewn up."},{"startTime":2440.725,"endTime":2444.925,"body":"But it, but to your point, it is"},{"startTime":2440.725,"endTime":2444.925,"body":"this, the soil of radicalization, like"},{"startTime":2444.985,"endTime":2449.035,"body":"political descent, political frustration,"},{"startTime":2444.985,"endTime":2449.035,"body":"and that's exactly what the Grapes of"},{"startTime":2449.035,"endTime":2453.835,"body":"Wrath was attempting to, to, to show"},{"startTime":2449.035,"endTime":2453.835,"body":"the public in the 1930s, was that the"},{"startTime":2453.835,"endTime":2459.205,"body":"way that we are treating these farmers"},{"startTime":2453.835,"endTime":2459.205,"body":"across the greater Midwest, um, that's"},{"startTime":2459.205,"endTime":2465.325,"body":"how fascism rises is, is is this idea"},{"startTime":2459.205,"endTime":2465.325,"body":"that you can mobilize the working class."},{"startTime":2465.7,"endTime":2469.96,"body":"Without, also without changing property"},{"startTime":2465.7,"endTime":2469.96,"body":"relations, and that's getting into"},{"startTime":2469.96,"endTime":2471.37,"body":"the scholarship, but that's fascism."},{"startTime":2472.27,"endTime":2476.41,"body":"And so your question, to answer"},{"startTime":2472.27,"endTime":2476.41,"body":"it very, very pointedly and not as"},{"startTime":2476.41,"endTime":2478.69,"body":"long-winded as I just did, is yes."},{"startTime":2478.69,"endTime":2480.04,"body":"And that's how fascism starts."},{"startTime":2481.66,"endTime":2486.91,"body":"I, I was fascinated with the tariff"},{"startTime":2481.66,"endTime":2486.91,"body":"dialogue where, you know, you had"},{"startTime":2486.91,"endTime":2490.359,"body":"the tariffs come out and we've had,"},{"startTime":2486.91,"endTime":2490.359,"body":"I mean, like the world has seen"},{"startTime":2490.359,"endTime":2491.95,"body":"tariffs fail time and time again."},{"startTime":2491.95,"endTime":2492.009,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2492.009,"endTime":2496.569,"body":"We've seen 'em fail, but I was"},{"startTime":2492.009,"endTime":2496.569,"body":"fascinated to watch those that"},{"startTime":2496.569,"endTime":2498.339,"body":"were defending the tariffs."},{"startTime":2498.49,"endTime":2502.48,"body":"Mm. And, and to see, especially"},{"startTime":2498.49,"endTime":2502.48,"body":"when the economy was just."},{"startTime":2502.83,"endTime":2506.339,"body":"And it's still not, you know, we're"},{"startTime":2502.83,"endTime":2506.339,"body":"still in, in trouble, but especially"},{"startTime":2506.339,"endTime":2509.91,"body":"as the downturn happened and the"},{"startTime":2506.339,"endTime":2509.91,"body":"panic happened, to see people"},{"startTime":2509.94,"endTime":2514.23,"body":"respond in a way, um, to the tariffs."},{"startTime":2514.23,"endTime":2519.87,"body":"That reminded me kind of what you're"},{"startTime":2514.23,"endTime":2519.87,"body":"saying to where they were buying into"},{"startTime":2519.87,"endTime":2526.109,"body":"this conspiracy of like, you know, uh,"},{"startTime":2519.87,"endTime":2526.109,"body":"uh, God has this, like God has this."},{"startTime":2526.109,"endTime":2526.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2526.145,"endTime":2529.259,"body":"And like, and Trump knows what he's doing."},{"startTime":2529.259,"endTime":2532.77,"body":"Capitalists always win, you know,"},{"startTime":2529.259,"endTime":2532.77,"body":"but, and some of them were very angry,"},{"startTime":2532.77,"endTime":2533.884,"body":"like, you don't know how to mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2533.89,"endTime":2537.509,"body":"If you're, if you're, I saw one person say"},{"startTime":2533.89,"endTime":2537.509,"body":"like, you don't know how, if you, your 4"},{"startTime":2537.509,"endTime":2542.4,"body":"0 1 K's down, like you don't know how to"},{"startTime":2537.509,"endTime":2542.4,"body":"invest correctly, like illogical things"},{"startTime":2542.4,"endTime":2545.069,"body":"that, that made, that like mystified me."},{"startTime":2545.1,"endTime":2546.15,"body":"I was like, this is right."},{"startTime":2546.27,"endTime":2546.93,"body":"This is crazy."},{"startTime":2546.93,"endTime":2548.73,"body":"But when you're talking about that, like."},{"startTime":2549.22,"endTime":2553.36,"body":"Uh, what you were just saying, like"},{"startTime":2549.22,"endTime":2553.36,"body":"that to me is a missed reality to"},{"startTime":2553.36,"endTime":2558.97,"body":"where those individuals, they've,"},{"startTime":2553.36,"endTime":2558.97,"body":"they've so bought into a narrative to"},{"startTime":2558.97,"endTime":2562.03,"body":"where God is, is controlling Trump."},{"startTime":2562.03,"endTime":2564.1,"body":"And Trump is controlling the economy."},{"startTime":2564.1,"endTime":2564.16,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2564.49,"endTime":2568.685,"body":"And that whatever Trump does, he"},{"startTime":2564.49,"endTime":2568.685,"body":"has a vision or a plan from God."},{"startTime":2568.81,"endTime":2570.46,"body":"And I'm not making this shit up like this."},{"startTime":2570.46,"endTime":2571.36,"body":"People think this."},{"startTime":2571.36,"endTime":2571.48,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2571.51,"endTime":2571.75,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2572.085,"endTime":2572.205,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2572.205,"endTime":2572.325,"body":"know."},{"startTime":2572.685,"endTime":2572.885,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2573.22,"endTime":2573.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2573.46,"endTime":2576.46,"body":"And then when it's, when there's a,"},{"startTime":2573.46,"endTime":2576.46,"body":"there's a, there's something that"},{"startTime":2576.46,"endTime":2579.1,"body":"happens that they don't back from it."},{"startTime":2579.1,"endTime":2580.33,"body":"They double down on it."},{"startTime":2580.33,"endTime":2582.31,"body":"They double down, they keep doubling down."},{"startTime":2582.73,"endTime":2582.79,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2582.79,"endTime":2587.62,"body":"And like to me, like as you were talking,"},{"startTime":2582.79,"endTime":2587.62,"body":"I just keep thinking about like how."},{"startTime":2588.415,"endTime":2591.925,"body":"I love to look at those individuals"},{"startTime":2588.415,"endTime":2591.925,"body":"and say like, there is some pain"},{"startTime":2591.925,"endTime":2593.365,"body":"and hurt that they're experiencing."},{"startTime":2593.365,"endTime":2593.455,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2593.695,"endTime":2597.325,"body":"Maybe from an economical level that"},{"startTime":2593.695,"endTime":2597.325,"body":"we don't understand or can't see,"},{"startTime":2597.715,"endTime":2601.345,"body":"and yet I feel like the church could"},{"startTime":2597.715,"endTime":2601.345,"body":"be in a place in those communities"},{"startTime":2601.345,"endTime":2602.515,"body":"where they bridge that gap."},{"startTime":2602.515,"endTime":2602.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2602.875,"endTime":2606.865,"body":"Where they step in and say like, the"},{"startTime":2602.875,"endTime":2606.865,"body":"community's experiencing unemployment"},{"startTime":2606.865,"endTime":2611.065,"body":"because of the plant leaving or because"},{"startTime":2606.865,"endTime":2611.065,"body":"of layoffs and the church being able to"},{"startTime":2611.065,"endTime":2616.285,"body":"have a narrative and have a conversation"},{"startTime":2611.065,"endTime":2616.285,"body":"with the community that helps unseat"},{"startTime":2616.285,"endTime":2621.025,"body":"some of that soil or pour, you know,"},{"startTime":2616.285,"endTime":2621.025,"body":"pour some fertilizer on those weeds"},{"startTime":2621.025,"endTime":2623.245,"body":"that are growing to potentially do that."},{"startTime":2623.305,"endTime":2626.425,"body":"I just don't see that, like"},{"startTime":2623.305,"endTime":2626.425,"body":"I, I don't see that happening."},{"startTime":2626.815,"endTime":2629.125,"body":"I see it sometimes happening online."},{"startTime":2629.575,"endTime":2629.665,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2629.905,"endTime":2632.635,"body":"But I don't see it happening"},{"startTime":2629.905,"endTime":2632.635,"body":"in a broader sense."},{"startTime":2632.635,"endTime":2637.795,"body":"I see more of people from the church"},{"startTime":2632.635,"endTime":2637.795,"body":"standing up and saying, yeah, we"},{"startTime":2637.795,"endTime":2639.565,"body":"believe that that is happening."},{"startTime":2639.595,"endTime":2643.285,"body":"Like we are getting layoffs and we need,"},{"startTime":2639.595,"endTime":2643.285,"body":"yeah, Trump's got a vision and this is"},{"startTime":2643.285,"endTime":2644.845,"body":"Trump's vision and we're gonna get there."},{"startTime":2644.845,"endTime":2647.005,"body":"We just gotta get through it and."},{"startTime":2647.74,"endTime":2650.92,"body":"I don't know if there's an answer"},{"startTime":2647.74,"endTime":2650.92,"body":"for the church to make that shift."},{"startTime":2650.92,"endTime":2655.18,"body":"I don't know if it can In America, I"},{"startTime":2650.92,"endTime":2655.18,"body":"don't think it ever has except with"},{"startTime":2655.18,"endTime":2656.86,"body":"the exception of like the black church."},{"startTime":2657.76,"endTime":2657.88,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2657.881,"endTime":2660.43,"body":"But is it possible for"},{"startTime":2657.881,"endTime":2660.43,"body":"the church to become that?"},{"startTime":2660.43,"endTime":2664.87,"body":"Has it ever even been that and can"},{"startTime":2660.43,"endTime":2664.87,"body":"it become a place to where it is"},{"startTime":2664.87,"endTime":2668.29,"body":"creating, it is a safety net to say"},{"startTime":2668.295,"endTime":2668.515,"body":"mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2669.005,"endTime":2671.08,"body":"Point people back toward a different way."},{"startTime":2671.32,"endTime":2672.73,"body":"Um, that's, yeah."},{"startTime":2672.82,"endTime":2673.81,"body":"That is the question."},{"startTime":2673.84,"endTime":2675.1,"body":"And I think, yes."},{"startTime":2675.16,"endTime":2676.24,"body":"I think the answer is yes."},{"startTime":2676.24,"endTime":2677.14,"body":"I think it can."},{"startTime":2677.59,"endTime":2683.86,"body":"And the, the question is, and I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":2677.59,"endTime":2683.86,"body":"thinking of, I'm, I'm like, I'm a dad,"},{"startTime":2684.04,"endTime":2688.12,"body":"so I'm thinking maybe in my kids' time,"},{"startTime":2684.04,"endTime":2688.12,"body":"like the decisions we're making now as a"},{"startTime":2688.12,"endTime":2693.22,"body":"family of saying, okay, like, where do we"},{"startTime":2688.12,"endTime":2693.22,"body":"wanna spend the next 10 years, 15 years?"},{"startTime":2693.22,"endTime":2695.05,"body":"Like, what could reasonably occur?"},{"startTime":2695.38,"endTime":2697.93,"body":"I think in many ways it's"},{"startTime":2695.38,"endTime":2697.93,"body":"probably happening in, in ways"},{"startTime":2697.93,"endTime":2701.62,"body":"that we're not noticing, just"},{"startTime":2697.93,"endTime":2701.62,"body":"because it's, it's not this."},{"startTime":2702.654,"endTime":2704.875,"body":"News drawing until there's a victory."},{"startTime":2704.875,"endTime":2706.825,"body":"There's not really any"},{"startTime":2704.875,"endTime":2706.825,"body":"news worth reporting."},{"startTime":2707.245,"endTime":2712.075,"body":"Um, and I think there is a lot of that"},{"startTime":2707.245,"endTime":2712.075,"body":"type of communal, but so long as I think"},{"startTime":2712.075,"endTime":2716.395,"body":"the church sees itself as an institution"},{"startTime":2712.075,"endTime":2716.395,"body":"that it has to defend so long as"},{"startTime":2716.395,"endTime":2720.714,"body":"churches see themselves as like survival"},{"startTime":2716.395,"endTime":2720.714,"body":"strategies of like, these policies have"},{"startTime":2720.714,"endTime":2726.205,"body":"to serve us, um, then I don't think"},{"startTime":2720.714,"endTime":2726.205,"body":"it's prepared to risk what it'll take to"},{"startTime":2726.205,"endTime":2730.404,"body":"start being an advocate for the common"},{"startTime":2726.205,"endTime":2730.404,"body":"problems in its, its in our community."},{"startTime":2730.705,"endTime":2735.535,"body":"Um, so I think that there's an"},{"startTime":2730.705,"endTime":2735.535,"body":"economic question there, like"},{"startTime":2735.535,"endTime":2736.825,"body":"there's an economic tension."},{"startTime":2737.154,"endTime":2739.555,"body":"Um, did Jesus really mean what he said?"},{"startTime":2739.615,"endTime":2742.705,"body":"You know, when he said that"},{"startTime":2739.615,"endTime":2742.705,"body":"the flowers are clothed and,"},{"startTime":2742.705,"endTime":2744.295,"body":"and that the birds have homes?"},{"startTime":2744.595,"endTime":2749.365,"body":"Um, and let's be very clear, that"},{"startTime":2744.595,"endTime":2749.365,"body":"seems incredibly arbitrary and totally"},{"startTime":2749.365,"endTime":2755.275,"body":"dangerous advice to follow unless you"},{"startTime":2749.365,"endTime":2755.275,"body":"put it in the context of God's care."},{"startTime":2755.725,"endTime":2758.815,"body":"Unless you're willing to, to"},{"startTime":2755.725,"endTime":2758.815,"body":"test that and be faithful to"},{"startTime":2758.815,"endTime":2761.815,"body":"it, um, you will never meet."},{"startTime":2762.175,"endTime":2765.595,"body":"You know, uh, a financial advisor who"},{"startTime":2762.175,"endTime":2765.595,"body":"works with Dave Ramsey, that'll tell you."},{"startTime":2765.595,"endTime":2766.435,"body":"That's good advice."},{"startTime":2767.455,"endTime":2768.955,"body":"You'll never, you'll never,"},{"startTime":2767.455,"endTime":2768.955,"body":"you'll never hear that."},{"startTime":2769.585,"endTime":2769.885,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2770.515,"endTime":2771.775,"body":"Something I've been thinking about."},{"startTime":2772.915,"endTime":2773.365,"body":"You won't."},{"startTime":2773.365,"endTime":2773.425,"body":"No,"},{"startTime":2775.44,"endTime":2776.1,"body":"you just won't."},{"startTime":2776.485,"endTime":2779.995,"body":"Um, something I've been thinking about a"},{"startTime":2776.485,"endTime":2779.995,"body":"lot, and, and again, when we're talking"},{"startTime":2779.995,"endTime":2784.435,"body":"about the church right now, we're, unless"},{"startTime":2779.995,"endTime":2784.435,"body":"we're specifically talking about the"},{"startTime":2784.435,"endTime":2792.595,"body":"white evangelical church in America,"},{"startTime":2784.435,"endTime":2792.595,"body":"um, I have really been grappling with"},{"startTime":2792.595,"endTime":2796.015,"body":"like, is that faith even compelling?"},{"startTime":2796.015,"endTime":2800.755,"body":"And I don't think it is, like the faith"},{"startTime":2796.015,"endTime":2800.755,"body":"that is being sold in white American"},{"startTime":2800.755,"endTime":2802.795,"body":"evangelical spaces is not compelling."},{"startTime":2803.185,"endTime":2807.81,"body":"Hence why conspiracy theories"},{"startTime":2803.185,"endTime":2807.81,"body":"are so, they're more compelling."},{"startTime":2808.705,"endTime":2811.855,"body":"Than the Jesus of the"},{"startTime":2808.705,"endTime":2811.855,"body":"White American church."},{"startTime":2812.425,"endTime":2819.475,"body":"And I believe that the example of the"},{"startTime":2812.425,"endTime":2819.475,"body":"black church in America, and I believe"},{"startTime":2819.475,"endTime":2823.495,"body":"the example of survivors that choose"},{"startTime":2819.475,"endTime":2823.495,"body":"integrity at great cost to themselves."},{"startTime":2823.525,"endTime":2823.615,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2824.395,"endTime":2826.855,"body":"That faith in Jesus is compelling."},{"startTime":2827.605,"endTime":2828.175,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2828.18,"endTime":2828.32,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2828.955,"endTime":2834.055,"body":"What I wonder and ponder on quite a"},{"startTime":2828.955,"endTime":2834.055,"body":"bit when it comes to where we're at"},{"startTime":2834.055,"endTime":2837.655,"body":"and, and what does this look like"},{"startTime":2834.055,"endTime":2837.655,"body":"for us to all be in this Christian"},{"startTime":2837.655,"endTime":2841.945,"body":"nationalist hellscape that we're living"},{"startTime":2837.655,"endTime":2841.945,"body":"in right now, like what is the way out?"},{"startTime":2842.065,"endTime":2847.375,"body":"And I don't know if there is"},{"startTime":2842.065,"endTime":2847.375,"body":"capacity for that within white"},{"startTime":2847.375,"endTime":2850.075,"body":"evangelical American spaces at all."},{"startTime":2850.08,"endTime":2850.2,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2850.205,"endTime":2852.865,"body":"Like, I think it's going to be like."},{"startTime":2853.615,"endTime":2858.835,"body":"I don't know if a can outside of like the"},{"startTime":2853.615,"endTime":2858.835,"body":"lightning bolts of God coming in and I"},{"startTime":2858.835,"endTime":2860.634,"body":"don't think it's gonna be the same voices."},{"startTime":2860.634,"endTime":2861.384,"body":"'cause they like,"},{"startTime":2861.655,"endTime":2861.835,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":2862.255,"endTime":2863.245,"body":"we don't know."},{"startTime":2863.245,"endTime":2866.905,"body":"All of us on this call have"},{"startTime":2863.245,"endTime":2866.905,"body":"stared at this and mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2867.145,"endTime":2871.405,"body":"Jared, you've stared at it in a"},{"startTime":2867.145,"endTime":2871.405,"body":"through scholarship and study."},{"startTime":2871.465,"endTime":2871.555,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2871.75,"endTime":2880.765,"body":"Yet we were raised in a space that, that"},{"startTime":2871.75,"endTime":2880.765,"body":"had, that sold a faith in a Jesus that"},{"startTime":2880.765,"endTime":2887.965,"body":"for the most part is not, uh, congruent"},{"startTime":2880.765,"endTime":2887.965,"body":"with a character of the God of the Bible."},{"startTime":2888.355,"endTime":2894.745,"body":"So what, like, I just, I don't"},{"startTime":2888.355,"endTime":2894.745,"body":"know that there's a way for mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2894.95,"endTime":2897.595,"body":"These like megachurch Yeah."},{"startTime":2897.595,"endTime":2902.035,"body":"White spaces to actually change because"},{"startTime":2897.595,"endTime":2902.035,"body":"I don't think they know another way."},{"startTime":2902.515,"endTime":2903.655,"body":"'cause I don't know that."},{"startTime":2904.21,"endTime":2911.589,"body":"I don't know that Jesus and faith in Jesus"},{"startTime":2904.21,"endTime":2911.589,"body":"actually exists in those institutions."},{"startTime":2911.589,"endTime":2911.649,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2911.68,"endTime":2914.95,"body":"And I feel, I'm not trying to"},{"startTime":2911.68,"endTime":2914.95,"body":"sound elitist when I say that."},{"startTime":2915.189,"endTime":2917.049,"body":"I'm not trying to say like that."},{"startTime":2917.109,"endTime":2920.799,"body":"You can't have faith in Jesus and"},{"startTime":2917.109,"endTime":2920.799,"body":"be in one of those institutions, but"},{"startTime":2920.799,"endTime":2924.939,"body":"I do think that at a certain point"},{"startTime":2920.799,"endTime":2924.939,"body":"you hit a fork in the road where,"},{"startTime":2925.345,"endTime":2925.634,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2925.64,"endTime":2925.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2926.259,"endTime":2927.189,"body":"Something do you really"},{"startTime":2927.189,"endTime":2928.81,"body":"believe in Jesus or not?"},{"startTime":2929.2,"endTime":2932.919,"body":"And if you do believe in Jesus, then"},{"startTime":2929.2,"endTime":2932.919,"body":"you're gonna have to ask some really hard"},{"startTime":2932.919,"endTime":2937.66,"body":"questions or like, what are we doing?"},{"startTime":2938.2,"endTime":2942.58,"body":"We have a catalog of episodes where"},{"startTime":2938.2,"endTime":2942.58,"body":"those questions were asked for survivors"},{"startTime":2942.58,"endTime":2944.319,"body":"and the church turned the other way."},{"startTime":2944.68,"endTime":2944.799,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2945.73,"endTime":2947.71,"body":"I mean, that's happening everywhere."},{"startTime":2947.83,"endTime":2948.22,"body":"And"},{"startTime":2950.74,"endTime":2951.819,"body":"I feel like."},{"startTime":2952.63,"endTime":2958.06,"body":"One of the things that I had to"},{"startTime":2952.63,"endTime":2958.06,"body":"coming out of evangelicalism that I"},{"startTime":2958.06,"endTime":2964.21,"body":"had to grapple with, and maybe you"},{"startTime":2958.06,"endTime":2964.21,"body":"guys can relate, is this sense of"},{"startTime":2964.21,"endTime":2969.85,"body":"wanting to repair, you know, the work"},{"startTime":2964.21,"endTime":2969.85,"body":"of repair, the activism of a repair."},{"startTime":2971.05,"endTime":2977.86,"body":"And then I realized, um, that that's not"},{"startTime":2971.05,"endTime":2977.86,"body":"what I wanted to just, not, not inside"},{"startTime":2977.86,"endTime":2980.92,"body":"of me, like I had this realization, but"},{"startTime":2977.86,"endTime":2980.92,"body":"through conversations with colleagues"},{"startTime":2980.92,"endTime":2985.6,"body":"and, um, through attending other churches"},{"startTime":2980.92,"endTime":2985.6,"body":"outside of the country, like realizing"},{"startTime":2986.02,"endTime":2990.97,"body":"maybe I don't wanna spend the rest of"},{"startTime":2986.02,"endTime":2990.97,"body":"my life like fighting over, uh, you"},{"startTime":2990.97,"endTime":2995.38,"body":"know, if, if I could put it really"},{"startTime":2990.97,"endTime":2995.38,"body":"bluntly, like it is just a damned label."},{"startTime":2996.819,"endTime":3000.765,"body":"That, that the idea of contesting"},{"startTime":2996.819,"endTime":3000.765,"body":"the label Evangelical as"},{"startTime":3000.765,"endTime":3002.384,"body":"sort of like a brand revival."},{"startTime":3002.865,"endTime":3004.815,"body":"Like, I'm not interested in rebranding."},{"startTime":3005.115,"endTime":3010.35,"body":"I'm not gonna spend my life for, and in"},{"startTime":3005.115,"endTime":3010.35,"body":"that interest, it is nothing for a label."},{"startTime":3010.35,"endTime":3010.591,"body":"You're not like"},{"startTime":3010.605,"endTime":3012.735,"body":"the PR guy for evangelicalism."},{"startTime":3013.995,"endTime":3014.505,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3014.505,"endTime":3014.745,"body":"None."},{"startTime":3014.805,"endTime":3015.345,"body":"None of us."},{"startTime":3015.345,"endTime":3017.685,"body":"And if there's something about"},{"startTime":3015.345,"endTime":3017.685,"body":"evangelicalism that when you, when"},{"startTime":3017.685,"endTime":3021.435,"body":"you kind of step out and into the"},{"startTime":3017.685,"endTime":3021.435,"body":"margins or even outside of it, that"},{"startTime":3021.77,"endTime":3025.275,"body":"you, you kind of are at risk for"},{"startTime":3021.77,"endTime":3025.275,"body":"retaining a lot of its impulses."},{"startTime":3025.605,"endTime":3027.825,"body":"Um, and and that's one of 'em, right?"},{"startTime":3027.825,"endTime":3029.475,"body":"Like, oh, we can, we can, we can do this."},{"startTime":3029.835,"endTime":3034.904,"body":"And, and I think in some ways, um,"},{"startTime":3029.835,"endTime":3034.904,"body":"that's always like playing a card"},{"startTime":3034.904,"endTime":3036.555,"body":"game with cards under the table."},{"startTime":3037.47,"endTime":3040.5,"body":"That's not really, that's not"},{"startTime":3037.47,"endTime":3040.5,"body":"really playing all your cards."},{"startTime":3040.86,"endTime":3045.96,"body":"You like saying, ah, like, you"},{"startTime":3040.86,"endTime":3045.96,"body":"know, to to, to quote an atheist."},{"startTime":3046.32,"endTime":3050.85,"body":"Um, Nietzsche says, only where there"},{"startTime":3046.32,"endTime":3050.85,"body":"are graves can there be resurrections."},{"startTime":3051.6,"endTime":3057.06,"body":"Now, he wanted to put Christianity in"},{"startTime":3051.6,"endTime":3057.06,"body":"the grave, but other theologians who"},{"startTime":3057.06,"endTime":3061.11,"body":"engaged with Nietzsche said, Hey, you"},{"startTime":3057.06,"endTime":3061.11,"body":"were more right than you knew buddy."},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.59,"body":"Uh, and maybe you had some,"},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.59,"body":"maybe you had some good critiques"},{"startTime":3064.65,"endTime":3066.9,"body":"of the European Christianity."},{"startTime":3067.29,"endTime":3069.0,"body":"Um, and that's besides the point."},{"startTime":3069.0,"endTime":3072.96,"body":"But my point in sharing that with"},{"startTime":3069.0,"endTime":3072.96,"body":"evangelicalism in this like ative, what"},{"startTime":3072.96,"endTime":3079.535,"body":"do we, what do we do now is I think many"},{"startTime":3072.96,"endTime":3079.535,"body":"of us who have those who have never been"},{"startTime":3079.59,"endTime":3082.92,"body":"in these spaces and those who have found"},{"startTime":3079.59,"endTime":3082.92,"body":"their way out of these spaces can see very"},{"startTime":3082.92,"endTime":3086.16,"body":"clearly that sometimes coming to faith."},{"startTime":3086.85,"endTime":3089.28,"body":"Is also experienced as an apostasy."},{"startTime":3090.33,"endTime":3095.55,"body":"And, and until we're able to grapple"},{"startTime":3090.33,"endTime":3095.55,"body":"with the cost of that, like apostasy,"},{"startTime":3095.94,"endTime":3102.48,"body":"um, like Paul meeting Jesus on the"},{"startTime":3095.94,"endTime":3102.48,"body":"road of Damascus was repentance, but"},{"startTime":3102.48,"endTime":3107.31,"body":"it was also a sort of apostasy from"},{"startTime":3102.48,"endTime":3107.31,"body":"the faith that he was practicing."},{"startTime":3107.91,"endTime":3113.85,"body":"And until we're able to grapple with"},{"startTime":3107.91,"endTime":3113.85,"body":"that and really weigh like Jesus's"},{"startTime":3113.85,"endTime":3119.88,"body":"words to be born again to Nicodemus, um,"},{"startTime":3113.85,"endTime":3119.88,"body":"those have been reduced and flattened."},{"startTime":3120.42,"endTime":3122.61,"body":"And it's, it's not like."},{"startTime":3123.045,"endTime":3124.725,"body":"One, mechanical, pray the prayer."},{"startTime":3124.725,"endTime":3126.945,"body":"I mean, look, I, that was me."},{"startTime":3127.215,"endTime":3129.345,"body":"And in some ways I just kinda"},{"startTime":3127.215,"endTime":3129.345,"body":"would say, look, if anyone can"},{"startTime":3129.345,"endTime":3131.565,"body":"change, like anybody can change."},{"startTime":3131.565,"endTime":3134.955,"body":"If I can change, um, and I don't"},{"startTime":3131.565,"endTime":3134.955,"body":"feel like I've changed totally."},{"startTime":3135.315,"endTime":3135.645,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3135.645,"endTime":3140.865,"body":"But like that sense of Luther's first"},{"startTime":3135.645,"endTime":3140.865,"body":"thesis was all of life as conversion."},{"startTime":3140.865,"endTime":3144.585,"body":"And I feel like over the last five"},{"startTime":3140.865,"endTime":3144.585,"body":"years, all, all that's happened"},{"startTime":3144.585,"endTime":3147.855,"body":"in my life is being converted"},{"startTime":3144.585,"endTime":3147.855,"body":"over and over and over again."},{"startTime":3148.305,"endTime":3153.435,"body":"Um, and being unsettled and being"},{"startTime":3148.305,"endTime":3153.435,"body":"ruined and, and recognizing that that"},{"startTime":3153.435,"endTime":3155.445,"body":"ruin and that risk is actually freedom."},{"startTime":3155.535,"endTime":3159.015,"body":"And that's precisely what conspiracy"},{"startTime":3155.535,"endTime":3159.015,"body":"theory baked into Christianity's"},{"startTime":3159.015,"endTime":3160.395,"body":"trying to push down in a way."},{"startTime":3160.424,"endTime":3164.055,"body":"Like, we know, we know."},{"startTime":3164.235,"endTime":3170.025,"body":"And, and, and the minute that you say,"},{"startTime":3164.235,"endTime":3170.025,"body":"I don't know, but I trust, you know,"},{"startTime":3170.025,"endTime":3172.935,"body":"like you, then, then you get into some"},{"startTime":3170.025,"endTime":3172.935,"body":"really difficult stuff because that's"},{"startTime":3172.935,"endTime":3174.674,"body":"what abusers also want you to say."},{"startTime":3175.424,"endTime":3179.595,"body":"And so it gets into this really"},{"startTime":3175.424,"endTime":3179.595,"body":"perilous venture of faith, but"},{"startTime":3179.595,"endTime":3181.395,"body":"coming out from under an abuser."},{"startTime":3181.935,"endTime":3187.515,"body":"Like Hagar saying, I know where I've come"},{"startTime":3181.935,"endTime":3187.515,"body":"from, but I, I don't know where I'm going."},{"startTime":3188.205,"endTime":3189.135,"body":"That's what it feels like."},{"startTime":3189.885,"endTime":3193.935,"body":"And, and I think that's the testimony of"},{"startTime":3189.885,"endTime":3193.935,"body":"survivors, but I also think that's the"},{"startTime":3193.935,"endTime":3199.365,"body":"testimony of kids who just maybe just"},{"startTime":3193.935,"endTime":3199.365,"body":"survived being raised in an evangelicalism"},{"startTime":3199.605,"endTime":3203.295,"body":"that had you thinking, 'cause this"},{"startTime":3199.605,"endTime":3203.295,"body":"was my experience that one day I was"},{"startTime":3203.295,"endTime":3206.625,"body":"gonna be asked, are you a Christian"},{"startTime":3203.295,"endTime":3206.625,"body":"at gunpoint in my school cafeteria?"},{"startTime":3206.715,"endTime":3206.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3207.015,"endTime":3210.555,"body":"I can't tell you how many times"},{"startTime":3207.015,"endTime":3210.555,"body":"that story, that narrative"},{"startTime":3211.305,"endTime":3213.795,"body":"framed my devotion to Jesus."},{"startTime":3213.855,"endTime":3219.045,"body":"Um, and, and so I, I kind of say all"},{"startTime":3213.855,"endTime":3219.045,"body":"that to say I don't, I don't know if I"},{"startTime":3219.045,"endTime":3225.315,"body":"have like a, a, a really solid answer"},{"startTime":3219.045,"endTime":3225.315,"body":"in terms of do this X, Y, Z, but I hope"},{"startTime":3225.315,"endTime":3230.265,"body":"in some ways that I can at least give"},{"startTime":3225.315,"endTime":3230.265,"body":"language to what it looks like to leave"},{"startTime":3230.685,"endTime":3233.085,"body":"to that, that leaving can be freedom."},{"startTime":3233.085,"endTime":3237.015,"body":"That that risk and that ruin"},{"startTime":3233.085,"endTime":3237.015,"body":"can actually just be part of."},{"startTime":3237.645,"endTime":3243.134,"body":"You know, uh, there's this Dutch"},{"startTime":3237.645,"endTime":3243.134,"body":"resistance pastor who when the Nazis"},{"startTime":3243.134,"endTime":3246.795,"body":"occupied Amsterdam, which is where"},{"startTime":3243.134,"endTime":3246.795,"body":"Anne Frank was during World War ii,"},{"startTime":3246.825,"endTime":3253.545,"body":"for those who were history buffs,"},{"startTime":3246.825,"endTime":3253.545,"body":"this pastor said, um, he celebrated"},{"startTime":3254.475,"endTime":3258.705,"body":"the ruin of the church in Amsterdam."},{"startTime":3258.944,"endTime":3264.165,"body":"He said that the era of pious"},{"startTime":3258.944,"endTime":3264.165,"body":"church life is at an end, and he"},{"startTime":3264.165,"endTime":3265.904,"body":"just had a funeral for the church."},{"startTime":3265.935,"endTime":3267.105,"body":"He said, all right, it's over."},{"startTime":3267.165,"endTime":3268.815,"body":"Like our rot has been exposed."},{"startTime":3269.174,"endTime":3271.185,"body":"We have not resisted the"},{"startTime":3269.174,"endTime":3271.185,"body":"way that we should have."},{"startTime":3271.515,"endTime":3277.365,"body":"But then he has this line that says,"},{"startTime":3271.515,"endTime":3277.365,"body":"the church is the church by faith in"},{"startTime":3277.365,"endTime":3283.875,"body":"becoming the church again and again,"},{"startTime":3277.365,"endTime":3283.875,"body":"that's not rebranding, that's not huddle."},{"startTime":3283.875,"endTime":3289.004,"body":"The executive pastors and our brand"},{"startTime":3283.875,"endTime":3289.004,"body":"managers together and putting a better"},{"startTime":3289.004,"endTime":3296.865,"body":"face forward and, and, you know, putting a"},{"startTime":3289.004,"endTime":3296.865,"body":"post on social media that's like ruin and."},{"startTime":3297.27,"endTime":3299.34,"body":"And that's where things are born."},{"startTime":3299.34,"endTime":3302.7,"body":"So if that sounds like preaching, it is."},{"startTime":3302.91,"endTime":3308.1,"body":"And I think, I think the reason it"},{"startTime":3302.91,"endTime":3308.1,"body":"sounds like that is because there's a"},{"startTime":3308.1,"endTime":3315.03,"body":"whole world of a difference in, in being"},{"startTime":3308.1,"endTime":3315.03,"body":"liberated from a rogue word, um, and"},{"startTime":3315.03,"endTime":3320.01,"body":"finding yourself face-to-face, face with"},{"startTime":3315.03,"endTime":3320.01,"body":"a living word that demands your life."},{"startTime":3320.4,"endTime":3323.25,"body":"And that's risky and that's ruin this."},{"startTime":3323.25,"endTime":3326.13,"body":"And that'll look different for each"},{"startTime":3323.25,"endTime":3326.13,"body":"of us as we figure out, I think,"},{"startTime":3326.13,"endTime":3327.75,"body":"what it looks like to be responsible."},{"startTime":3328.02,"endTime":3331.8,"body":"But I, I wanna land this by just"},{"startTime":3328.02,"endTime":3331.8,"body":"suggesting, 'cause I get asked all"},{"startTime":3331.8,"endTime":3336.63,"body":"the time, like, how do you talk"},{"startTime":3331.8,"endTime":3336.63,"body":"to people who are like in this?"},{"startTime":3336.72,"endTime":3338.16,"body":"Like how do you, how do you frame that?"},{"startTime":3338.52,"endTime":3341.61,"body":"Um, and before I answer, I'm kind"},{"startTime":3338.52,"endTime":3341.61,"body":"of curious to hear from you both."},{"startTime":3341.61,"endTime":3347.31,"body":"Like how, what have you learned from"},{"startTime":3341.61,"endTime":3347.31,"body":"answering kind of conspiracy theories or"},{"startTime":3347.31,"endTime":3349.02,"body":"getting into those kind of conversations?"},{"startTime":3349.02,"endTime":3349.05,"body":"I."},{"startTime":3352.56,"endTime":3357.0,"body":"Um, I mean, I, I think you, I"},{"startTime":3352.56,"endTime":3357.0,"body":"think the first thing is, is just"},{"startTime":3357.0,"endTime":3361.229,"body":"to listen, uh, more than anything,"},{"startTime":3357.0,"endTime":3361.229,"body":"to, to show active listening."},{"startTime":3361.259,"endTime":3366.555,"body":"Like, you know, I'm listening and,"},{"startTime":3361.259,"endTime":3366.555,"body":"and, and trying to, uh, um, I. Yeah."},{"startTime":3366.705,"endTime":3369.105,"body":"Try not to say anything right away."},{"startTime":3369.705,"endTime":3369.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3369.765,"endTime":3372.825,"body":"'cause typically, I I, when people"},{"startTime":3369.765,"endTime":3372.825,"body":"are in those places, 'cause I mean,"},{"startTime":3372.825,"endTime":3374.475,"body":"I've been in those places before too."},{"startTime":3374.505,"endTime":3377.925,"body":"There, there is something"},{"startTime":3374.505,"endTime":3377.925,"body":"that is going on in their life"},{"startTime":3377.985,"endTime":3379.845,"body":"that, that has impacted them."},{"startTime":3379.905,"endTime":3383.595,"body":"That they're connecting to this conspiracy"},{"startTime":3379.905,"endTime":3383.595,"body":"theory or this belief in a way that"},{"startTime":3383.655,"endTime":3385.245,"body":"is giving them some sort of hope."},{"startTime":3385.845,"endTime":3393.225,"body":"And that hope, um, is usually directed"},{"startTime":3385.845,"endTime":3393.225,"body":"toward, sometimes it's directed"},{"startTime":3393.225,"endTime":3396.645,"body":"toward things that are negative on and"},{"startTime":3393.225,"endTime":3396.645,"body":"because they don't know any different."},{"startTime":3396.645,"endTime":3396.735,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3396.975,"endTime":3399.525,"body":"Or because that's just how they've,"},{"startTime":3396.975,"endTime":3399.525,"body":"they've grown up and they've been"},{"startTime":3399.525,"endTime":3403.605,"body":"raised and they, so giving that"},{"startTime":3399.525,"endTime":3403.605,"body":"attention to, to listening to the"},{"startTime":3403.605,"endTime":3408.075,"body":"story and asking questions about"},{"startTime":3403.605,"endTime":3408.075,"body":"the story, I think are important."},{"startTime":3408.345,"endTime":3412.005,"body":"I think we make a mistake by always"},{"startTime":3408.345,"endTime":3412.005,"body":"trying to say like, I've gotta prove"},{"startTime":3412.005,"endTime":3414.315,"body":"a point, like in this conversation."},{"startTime":3414.315,"endTime":3414.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3414.405,"endTime":3415.815,"body":"It's more about, to me just."},{"startTime":3416.13,"endTime":3419.58,"body":"Connection with the individual and"},{"startTime":3416.13,"endTime":3419.58,"body":"connecting with the fact that they're"},{"startTime":3419.58,"endTime":3424.29,"body":"experiencing something that I don't"},{"startTime":3419.58,"endTime":3424.29,"body":"have language for and they may not"},{"startTime":3424.29,"endTime":3429.39,"body":"have language for yet, but I want to"},{"startTime":3424.29,"endTime":3429.39,"body":"be present in the conversation, so"},{"startTime":3429.66,"endTime":3430.049,"body":"that's good."},{"startTime":3433.125,"endTime":3440.13,"body":"I will say that I have had to do a lot"},{"startTime":3433.125,"endTime":3440.13,"body":"of studying in this because my gut is to"},{"startTime":3440.16,"endTime":3444.75,"body":"freak the heck out when I hear something"},{"startTime":3440.16,"endTime":3444.75,"body":"crazy, especially with God's name attached"},{"startTime":3444.75,"endTime":3447.63,"body":"to it, like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":3447.87,"endTime":3449.46,"body":"That doesn't make any sense."},{"startTime":3449.49,"endTime":3451.02,"body":"That's not logical."},{"startTime":3451.35,"endTime":3452.88,"body":"This does not add up."},{"startTime":3453.06,"endTime":3454.68,"body":"This does not look like Jesus."},{"startTime":3455.355,"endTime":3456.465,"body":"That is heresy."},{"startTime":3456.525,"endTime":3458.175,"body":"Like that's my gut."},{"startTime":3458.205,"endTime":3461.025,"body":"Yeah, you've got, all of our listeners"},{"startTime":3458.205,"endTime":3461.025,"body":"have heard me do that before."},{"startTime":3461.445,"endTime":3468.045,"body":"Um, but I've been really pressing"},{"startTime":3461.445,"endTime":3468.045,"body":"into looking at deradicalization work,"},{"startTime":3468.075,"endTime":3471.435,"body":"deescalation depolarization lately."},{"startTime":3471.765,"endTime":3475.905,"body":"Um, I actually just sent over"},{"startTime":3471.765,"endTime":3475.905,"body":"a little free e-course to our"},{"startTime":3475.905,"endTime":3479.685,"body":"board at Sacred Wilderness about"},{"startTime":3475.905,"endTime":3479.685,"body":"depolarizing within that this"},{"startTime":3479.685,"endTime":3481.875,"body":"organization, braver Angels does that."},{"startTime":3482.115,"endTime":3483.015,"body":"It was so good."},{"startTime":3483.015,"endTime":3483.555,"body":"And it's free."},{"startTime":3483.555,"endTime":3484.815,"body":"I'll, I'll link it in the show notes."},{"startTime":3484.845,"endTime":3486.675,"body":"Um, yeah, that'd be great"},{"startTime":3484.845,"endTime":3486.675,"body":"if any of you wanna do it."},{"startTime":3487.515,"endTime":3489.975,"body":"Um, but something I've been really"},{"startTime":3492.105,"endTime":3499.305,"body":"wrestling with is that, um, the"},{"startTime":3492.105,"endTime":3499.305,"body":"cognitive dissonance that gets turned"},{"startTime":3499.305,"endTime":3503.325,"body":"on in people where it does literally"},{"startTime":3499.305,"endTime":3503.325,"body":"doesn't matter what you say, if"},{"startTime":3503.325,"endTime":3504.705,"body":"you trigger that in someone mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3504.945,"endTime":3509.055,"body":"You're just actually further pushing"},{"startTime":3504.945,"endTime":3509.055,"body":"them into the conspiracy theory"},{"startTime":3509.055,"endTime":3510.825,"body":"or the belief or the extremism."},{"startTime":3511.575,"endTime":3515.055,"body":"So I will not say I am good at it."},{"startTime":3515.055,"endTime":3518.415,"body":"I won't say I've learned this talking"},{"startTime":3515.055,"endTime":3518.415,"body":"to people and now I'm an expert."},{"startTime":3518.715,"endTime":3521.205,"body":"But, uh, I wish I was."},{"startTime":3521.655,"endTime":3527.775,"body":"But I do think that it has made me be"},{"startTime":3521.655,"endTime":3527.775,"body":"more mindful, especially with loved ones,"},{"startTime":3528.075,"endTime":3529.905,"body":"which I think many of us can probably say."},{"startTime":3529.905,"endTime":3534.255,"body":"We have loved ones that are"},{"startTime":3529.905,"endTime":3534.255,"body":"buying into at least some of"},{"startTime":3534.255,"endTime":3537.285,"body":"this, if not full sail in it."},{"startTime":3537.405,"endTime":3539.655,"body":"Um, is."},{"startTime":3540.78,"endTime":3543.555,"body":"Asking questions that, asking questions."},{"startTime":3543.6,"endTime":3547.08,"body":"And it also, it comes back to,"},{"startTime":3543.6,"endTime":3547.08,"body":"again, when I've been thinking"},{"startTime":3547.08,"endTime":3550.5,"body":"through this like through line of"},{"startTime":3547.08,"endTime":3550.5,"body":"how are these things all connected?"},{"startTime":3550.71,"endTime":3553.59,"body":"This is something that we"},{"startTime":3550.71,"endTime":3553.59,"body":"encourage survivors to do in"},{"startTime":3553.59,"endTime":3556.17,"body":"high control religious spaces."},{"startTime":3556.23,"endTime":3560.28,"body":"And now like reframing this to,"},{"startTime":3556.23,"endTime":3560.28,"body":"we're dealing with cult mindset,"},{"startTime":3560.79,"endTime":3560.91,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":3560.97,"endTime":3566.76,"body":"Um, at a national scale right"},{"startTime":3560.97,"endTime":3566.76,"body":"now, but inspire curiosity."},{"startTime":3566.88,"endTime":3573.0,"body":"You know, be a person that's safe to be"},{"startTime":3566.88,"endTime":3573.0,"body":"curious with to the extent that you can."},{"startTime":3573.0,"endTime":3576.24,"body":"And I think especially those of us"},{"startTime":3573.0,"endTime":3576.24,"body":"on this call, or the majority of"},{"startTime":3576.24,"endTime":3581.04,"body":"our listeners that are coming out of"},{"startTime":3576.24,"endTime":3581.04,"body":"white American evangelical spaces,"},{"startTime":3581.49,"endTime":3583.35,"body":"we have the privilege to do that."},{"startTime":3583.35,"endTime":3590.64,"body":"Like we can put our bodies on the line"},{"startTime":3583.35,"endTime":3590.64,"body":"to sit and listen to the garbage, right?"},{"startTime":3590.67,"endTime":3591.96,"body":"Like, it's not there."},{"startTime":3592.47,"endTime":3593.7,"body":"We can be that."},{"startTime":3593.76,"endTime":3598.02,"body":"Um, so that's kind of something"},{"startTime":3593.76,"endTime":3598.02,"body":"I've been working through and"},{"startTime":3598.02,"endTime":3599.46,"body":"also working through really hard."},{"startTime":3599.985,"endTime":3605.265,"body":"How to, how to see the humanity"},{"startTime":3599.985,"endTime":3605.265,"body":"in the people in front of me."},{"startTime":3605.265,"endTime":3606.585,"body":"Mm. And to not let go of that."},{"startTime":3606.585,"endTime":3610.635,"body":"Because I think once we allow,"},{"startTime":3606.585,"endTime":3610.635,"body":"and I'm seeing the rise of"},{"startTime":3610.635,"endTime":3613.155,"body":"it on the left, like quickly."},{"startTime":3613.185,"endTime":3613.245,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3613.245,"endTime":3614.505,"body":"The dehumanization."},{"startTime":3614.505,"endTime":3614.625,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3614.895,"endTime":3616.905,"body":"Of the far right."},{"startTime":3617.265,"endTime":3621.165,"body":"And I think once we get into that"},{"startTime":3617.265,"endTime":3621.165,"body":"space where we're allowing dehumanizing"},{"startTime":3621.165,"endTime":3625.665,"body":"rhetoric, where we're talking about"},{"startTime":3621.165,"endTime":3625.665,"body":"other human beings as if they are"},{"startTime":3626.175,"endTime":3630.435,"body":"dirt or giving them labels even, I"},{"startTime":3626.175,"endTime":3630.435,"body":"think even labels, like I've been"},{"startTime":3630.675,"endTime":3632.745,"body":"working not to call people abusers."},{"startTime":3633.075,"endTime":3634.575,"body":"'cause that's not who that person is."},{"startTime":3634.575,"endTime":3638.025,"body":"They're actually an image"},{"startTime":3634.575,"endTime":3638.025,"body":"bearer of God who is abusive."},{"startTime":3638.595,"endTime":3638.685,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3638.985,"endTime":3642.405,"body":"So some of that is, I don't know"},{"startTime":3638.985,"endTime":3642.405,"body":"if that answers your question."},{"startTime":3642.405,"endTime":3642.465,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3642.465,"endTime":3642.525,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3642.525,"endTime":3644.775,"body":"But this is some of the stuff"},{"startTime":3642.525,"endTime":3644.775,"body":"that I've been wrestling with."},{"startTime":3644.775,"endTime":3651.675,"body":"Like, how do I, as someone who still"},{"startTime":3644.775,"endTime":3651.675,"body":"believes in Jesus, walk in this and model"},{"startTime":3651.675,"endTime":3654.705,"body":"Jesus to the people around me, and it's."},{"startTime":3655.395,"endTime":3655.695,"body":"Hard."},{"startTime":3656.475,"endTime":3660.135,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I, I love that question"},{"startTime":3656.475,"endTime":3660.135,"body":"because too, it it, it reflects"},{"startTime":3660.135,"endTime":3664.125,"body":"the relationships that each of"},{"startTime":3660.135,"endTime":3664.125,"body":"each of us are responsible for."},{"startTime":3664.125,"endTime":3670.665,"body":"And I, I want people to hear in some"},{"startTime":3664.125,"endTime":3670.665,"body":"ways too that, um, you know, and,"},{"startTime":3670.665,"endTime":3673.995,"body":"and I'm probably more at risk of"},{"startTime":3670.665,"endTime":3673.995,"body":"this because I studied it, is like"},{"startTime":3673.995,"endTime":3679.155,"body":"turning this into like an academic"},{"startTime":3673.995,"endTime":3679.155,"body":"exercise or an intellectual test."},{"startTime":3679.575,"endTime":3684.255,"body":"Um, and, and that's risky"},{"startTime":3679.575,"endTime":3684.255,"body":"for a lot of reasons."},{"startTime":3684.555,"endTime":3690.285,"body":"The first being that I. No one's"},{"startTime":3684.555,"endTime":3690.285,"body":"a project in that way like this."},{"startTime":3690.315,"endTime":3692.535,"body":"And we're dealing with real lives."},{"startTime":3692.535,"endTime":3694.815,"body":"We're dealing with real"},{"startTime":3692.535,"endTime":3694.815,"body":"consequences of these things."},{"startTime":3695.235,"endTime":3699.795,"body":"Um, and I think the language that"},{"startTime":3695.235,"endTime":3699.795,"body":"we use in many ways, like our words,"},{"startTime":3699.795,"endTime":3705.195,"body":"build worlds and, and those worlds"},{"startTime":3699.795,"endTime":3705.195,"body":"can he us in or they, they can reflect"},{"startTime":3705.555,"endTime":3707.97,"body":"God's word and what he's doing."},{"startTime":3708.39,"endTime":3713.295,"body":"And so I, I think it's, I think it is"},{"startTime":3708.39,"endTime":3713.295,"body":"important that as far, so there's this"},{"startTime":3713.295,"endTime":3715.035,"body":"novelist that I talk about in my book."},{"startTime":3715.035,"endTime":3716.565,"body":"Her name is Rebecca West."},{"startTime":3716.895,"endTime":3720.825,"body":"She was writing, and I, I'll just kind"},{"startTime":3716.895,"endTime":3720.825,"body":"of maybe leave with this or contribute"},{"startTime":3720.825,"endTime":3725.205,"body":"this on my side of things with this"},{"startTime":3720.825,"endTime":3725.205,"body":"question is that she said she was trying"},{"startTime":3725.205,"endTime":3726.885,"body":"to describe how World War I happened."},{"startTime":3726.885,"endTime":3729.825,"body":"We're not gonna go back and do a history"},{"startTime":3726.885,"endTime":3729.825,"body":"lesson on that, but it was really complex"},{"startTime":3729.855,"endTime":3731.445,"body":"and they were all Christian nations."},{"startTime":3731.445,"endTime":3733.545,"body":"By the way, that's one of my"},{"startTime":3731.445,"endTime":3733.545,"body":"favorite things to point out is"},{"startTime":3733.545,"endTime":3736.725,"body":"like every single major nation in"},{"startTime":3733.545,"endTime":3736.725,"body":"World War I was a Christian nation."},{"startTime":3736.725,"endTime":3738.855,"body":"So that's Christian nationalism,"},{"startTime":3736.725,"endTime":3738.855,"body":"that's what it does."},{"startTime":3739.335,"endTime":3742.125,"body":"Um, but she said, I'll"},{"startTime":3739.335,"endTime":3742.125,"body":"never be able to explain it."},{"startTime":3742.875,"endTime":3745.785,"body":"She said, it's not that there"},{"startTime":3742.875,"endTime":3745.785,"body":"weren't enough facts, it's"},{"startTime":3745.785,"endTime":3746.745,"body":"that there were too many."},{"startTime":3747.87,"endTime":3753.18,"body":"And, and the challenge for our day, a"},{"startTime":3747.87,"endTime":3753.18,"body":"hundred years on from that is that we have"},{"startTime":3753.18,"endTime":3756.36,"body":"so many facts, so many different facts."},{"startTime":3756.69,"endTime":3760.2,"body":"And the stories that we tell about"},{"startTime":3756.69,"endTime":3760.2,"body":"our world are, are leading us to"},{"startTime":3760.2,"endTime":3762.27,"body":"gravity in in particular ways."},{"startTime":3762.48,"endTime":3765.36,"body":"Looking at these facts is"},{"startTime":3762.48,"endTime":3765.36,"body":"consequential and these facts is not."},{"startTime":3765.63,"endTime":3769.86,"body":"And, and in so much information I wanna"},{"startTime":3765.63,"endTime":3769.86,"body":"give people, and, and Jay, I think you"},{"startTime":3769.86,"endTime":3771.81,"body":"said it, uh, and Jonna you did too."},{"startTime":3772.23,"endTime":3777.33,"body":"The, the, the curiosity, the the,"},{"startTime":3772.23,"endTime":3777.33,"body":"the, the willingness to engage in"},{"startTime":3777.33,"endTime":3781.35,"body":"conversation in a way that we, um,"},{"startTime":3783.78,"endTime":3788.22,"body":"dispossess ourselves of the"},{"startTime":3783.78,"endTime":3788.22,"body":"need to be right immediately."},{"startTime":3788.79,"endTime":3793.44,"body":"It's not that we're seeding that"},{"startTime":3788.79,"endTime":3793.44,"body":"there's no such thing as truth"},{"startTime":3793.44,"endTime":3797.94,"body":"with a capital T. Um, it's not"},{"startTime":3793.44,"endTime":3797.94,"body":"that we're, but more importantly"},{"startTime":3797.94,"endTime":3800.16,"body":"we're leaving this door open that."},{"startTime":3801.12,"endTime":3803.97,"body":"We ourselves do not possess all the facts."},{"startTime":3804.629,"endTime":3808.5,"body":"And I think that that's a really"},{"startTime":3804.629,"endTime":3808.5,"body":"healthy common ground and place to be."},{"startTime":3808.92,"endTime":3812.819,"body":"Um, but I wanna encourage people"},{"startTime":3808.92,"endTime":3812.819,"body":"too, this is an active, like"},{"startTime":3813.24,"endTime":3818.64,"body":"we have not found anything that"},{"startTime":3813.24,"endTime":3818.64,"body":"is, is, can be scaled to really"},{"startTime":3818.64,"endTime":3821.25,"body":"deradicalize from conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":3821.64,"endTime":3825.569,"body":"Um, and one of the things that"},{"startTime":3821.64,"endTime":3825.569,"body":"is not really often talked about"},{"startTime":3825.93,"endTime":3829.23,"body":"is the way that religious belief"},{"startTime":3825.93,"endTime":3829.23,"body":"is baked into these things."},{"startTime":3829.44,"endTime":3833.16,"body":"So what I'm really focused on"},{"startTime":3829.44,"endTime":3833.16,"body":"is how do we, how do we talk"},{"startTime":3833.16,"endTime":3835.29,"body":"about Jesus that's theology."},{"startTime":3835.5,"endTime":3836.79,"body":"Like how do we talk about God?"},{"startTime":3836.79,"endTime":3844.29,"body":"How do we do theology in a way that"},{"startTime":3836.79,"endTime":3844.29,"body":"allows for this separation between"},{"startTime":3844.29,"endTime":3849.21,"body":"these, these conspiratorial narratives"},{"startTime":3844.29,"endTime":3849.21,"body":"and, and how we talk about God?"},{"startTime":3849.66,"endTime":3851.46,"body":"And I think that that's"},{"startTime":3849.66,"endTime":3851.46,"body":"a work that God is in."},{"startTime":3851.7,"endTime":3854.49,"body":"I think that that's something"},{"startTime":3851.7,"endTime":3854.49,"body":"that we can trust the spirit to,"},{"startTime":3854.97,"endTime":3857.279,"body":"um, bring about in its own way."},{"startTime":3857.58,"endTime":3858.12,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":3858.825,"endTime":3864.345,"body":"But it's so much more than just"},{"startTime":3858.825,"endTime":3864.345,"body":"swapping facts back and forth,"},{"startTime":3864.525,"endTime":3866.384,"body":"false facts, alternative facts."},{"startTime":3866.654,"endTime":3867.65,"body":"It's an encounter and it's not"},{"startTime":3867.73,"endTime":3867.89,"body":"efficient."},{"startTime":3868.24,"endTime":3869.49,"body":"It's not efficient, it's not efficient"},{"startTime":3869.495,"endTime":3869.835,"body":"at all."},{"startTime":3869.835,"endTime":3870.225,"body":"It's slow."},{"startTime":3871.275,"endTime":3872.145,"body":"It's slow."},{"startTime":3872.145,"endTime":3876.825,"body":"And it really, it, it deeper, it deepens"},{"startTime":3872.145,"endTime":3876.825,"body":"entrenchment into conspiracy theory."},{"startTime":3877.005,"endTime":3877.815,"body":"So don't do that."},{"startTime":3878.595,"endTime":3881.085,"body":"Like, if we could say one thing"},{"startTime":3878.595,"endTime":3881.085,"body":"clearly, like, don't argue in"},{"startTime":3881.085,"endTime":3884.115,"body":"that way because it does actually"},{"startTime":3881.085,"endTime":3884.115,"body":"just further deepen those divides."},{"startTime":3884.415,"endTime":3888.075,"body":"Um, a more, we've already said"},{"startTime":3884.415,"endTime":3888.075,"body":"it, but asking the questions."},{"startTime":3888.255,"endTime":3891.675,"body":"The one thing that I, I think I"},{"startTime":3888.255,"endTime":3891.675,"body":"is, I've used this before, but"},{"startTime":3891.675,"endTime":3896.085,"body":"just this metaphor to help people"},{"startTime":3891.675,"endTime":3896.085,"body":"conceive of the, of the work is, is"},{"startTime":3896.085,"endTime":3897.675,"body":"putting pebbles in people's shoes."},{"startTime":3898.455,"endTime":3899.325,"body":"I don't know what that looks like."},{"startTime":3899.325,"endTime":3900.615,"body":"It may not be a fact."},{"startTime":3900.915,"endTime":3904.904,"body":"It may be the, the, the ethos of the,"},{"startTime":3900.915,"endTime":3904.904,"body":"you know, the, the way that someone"},{"startTime":3904.904,"endTime":3906.375,"body":"feels when they're in your presence."},{"startTime":3906.735,"endTime":3908.565,"body":"Um, in a way of, Hey, this is safe."},{"startTime":3908.565,"endTime":3909.945,"body":"I don't have to have my guard up."},{"startTime":3910.335,"endTime":3913.785,"body":"It's, it's, I. You know, the,"},{"startTime":3910.335,"endTime":3913.785,"body":"the family divides are real."},{"startTime":3914.145,"endTime":3919.185,"body":"Um, and we don't have to diminish"},{"startTime":3914.145,"endTime":3919.185,"body":"the consequences of our moment, um,"},{"startTime":3919.275,"endTime":3921.315,"body":"by refusing to have conversations."},{"startTime":3921.465,"endTime":3923.445,"body":"But we can be people"},{"startTime":3921.465,"endTime":3923.445,"body":"who are never offended."},{"startTime":3924.045,"endTime":3928.395,"body":"We can be people who are endlessly"},{"startTime":3924.045,"endTime":3928.395,"body":"curious, um, and confident that given"},{"startTime":3928.395,"endTime":3934.845,"body":"a, given a hearing, um, the word of"},{"startTime":3928.395,"endTime":3934.845,"body":"God is something that is going to ruin"},{"startTime":3935.175,"endTime":3939.705,"body":"our chosen and cherished narratives,"},{"startTime":3935.175,"endTime":3939.705,"body":"um, for what we think is at stake."},{"startTime":3939.825,"endTime":3942.345,"body":"Because I don't think what we think"},{"startTime":3939.825,"endTime":3942.345,"body":"is at stake is actually at stake."},{"startTime":3942.705,"endTime":3947.415,"body":"Um, and, and that sort of encounter"},{"startTime":3942.705,"endTime":3947.415,"body":"and transformation is what I think my"},{"startTime":3947.415,"endTime":3949.425,"body":"work is hopefully geared up towards."},{"startTime":3949.425,"endTime":3949.695,"body":"So."},{"startTime":3951.0,"endTime":3951.54,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":3953.34,"endTime":3953.82,"body":"Beautiful."},{"startTime":3954.42,"endTime":3954.78,"body":"Wonderful."},{"startTime":3954.78,"endTime":3954.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3954.99,"endTime":3956.04,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"startTime":3956.04,"endTime":3961.14,"body":"This was, so, this sparked a lot of"},{"startTime":3956.04,"endTime":3961.14,"body":"thoughts in me and things that I wanna"},{"startTime":3961.14,"endTime":3965.7,"body":"go wrestle through, and I, I'm sure"},{"startTime":3961.14,"endTime":3965.7,"body":"it did for our listeners as well."},{"startTime":3966.03,"endTime":3969.72,"body":"I really look forward to your"},{"startTime":3966.03,"endTime":3969.72,"body":"book coming out, so we'll be sure"},{"startTime":3969.72,"endTime":3973.08,"body":"to post about that when the time"},{"startTime":3969.72,"endTime":3973.08,"body":"comes or maybe even have you back."},{"startTime":3973.2,"endTime":3973.71,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":3973.92,"endTime":3974.52,"body":"sounds great"},{"startTime":3974.61,"endTime":3975.99,"body":"to, to hopefully"},{"startTime":3975.99,"endTime":3978.3,"body":"have more to say when"},{"startTime":3975.99,"endTime":3978.3,"body":"it's all said and done."},{"startTime":3978.71,"endTime":3980.96,"body":"I, I think you probably will."},{"startTime":3980.96,"endTime":3983.12,"body":"I'm sure you're learning things as you go."},{"startTime":3983.12,"endTime":3983.18,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3983.21,"endTime":3985.58,"body":"To be honest, we kind of"},{"startTime":3983.21,"endTime":3985.58,"body":"all are at this point."},{"startTime":3985.88,"endTime":3986.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3986.0,"endTime":3986.09,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3986.09,"endTime":3990.83,"body":"But please go subscribe to"},{"startTime":3986.09,"endTime":3990.83,"body":"Jared Substack, keep up with"},{"startTime":3990.83,"endTime":3992.45,"body":"his work, and reach out to us."},{"startTime":3992.45,"endTime":3995.06,"body":"Send us an email if there was"},{"startTime":3992.45,"endTime":3995.06,"body":"something in this episode that Yeah."},{"startTime":3995.33,"endTime":3999.41,"body":"Sparked curiosity in you or"},{"startTime":3995.33,"endTime":3999.41,"body":"questions that you have, I'd love"},{"startTime":3999.41,"endTime":4001.0,"body":"to continue this conversation."},{"startTime":4002.89,"endTime":4003.25,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4003.25,"endTime":4004.06,"body":"Thanks Jared."},{"startTime":4004.72,"endTime":4005.74,"body":"Thanks so much for having me on."}]}